In an effort to avoid threadjacking Ank (feel free to merge if unnecessary), what is this stuff about Snowden? Did I miss a major development and the two major camps have gotten merged into one with new info, or am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?
Nope, hes still a delusional piece of shit.
For Russia he was (possibly still is) a useful idiot.
Quote from: Alcibiades on January 10, 2017, 12:21:58 AM
Nope, hes still a delusional piece of shit.
How so?
Genuine question. I didn't delve into Snowden much apart from what I heard on the news, "whistleblower, said the NSA was way overstepping their mission".
Delusions of grandeur mostly. I thought he was basically a good guy at the time, even though Ank insisted otherwise pretty passionately. Now he seems to be a pretty self important idiot.
Snowden's not a whistleblower. There's no evidence whatsoever that he had in mind any reforms. He didn't take his case to anyone with the power to reform the abuses he supposedly decried. All the evidence we have is that he was a regular old spy who blew his cover to give the Russians cover for publicly releasing the documents he stole that the Russians thought would embarrass the US. 90% of what he gave the Russians was never published.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 09, 2017, 11:56:11 PM
am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?
yes
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 09, 2017, 11:56:11 PM
am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?
yes
I think that is likely the best possible case interpretation of what he did.
The likely case is that he is simply engaged in espionage.
when did the espionage theory develop?
Quote from: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
when did the espionage theory develop?
When he deliberately stole highly classified documents and gave them to foreign powers.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
when did the espionage theory develop?
The very second we ever heard about him. At least on this board.
I was really surprised about how quickly he was denounced by people on this board, especially Ank who knows a thing or two about the intelligence community I think.
I guess I missed those arguments. cdm's article the other day seemed like new territory.
If you read the espionage statute, there isn't much argument about Snowden's guilt. And he's already been charged. He's not hanging around Moscow just for the borscht.
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Now, it is possible he did this for noble reasons.
It is possible that someone robbing a 7-Eleven is doing so in order to feed some starving children, or because the owner is a drug dealer, or some other explanation other than the obvious one of the person doing the robbing simply being a thief.
But the default presumption is generally the obvious one - they are just a thief.
Snowdens actions have not suggested that he is much of anything other than a simple spy. I can be convinced otherwise, but I would need to see some actual evidence, and from what he has *actually done* (as opposed to what he and his supporters say), he looks like, at best, a useful idiot being played by Putin, and at worse simply a paid agent of the Russian intelligence services.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 11:25:55 AM
If you read the espionage statute, there isn't much argument about Snowden's guilt. And he's already been charged. He's not hanging around Moscow just for the borscht.
oh, is that what the references here to spy and espionage mean? I misunderstood, thinking the theory was he was some semi-agent hired by the russian government before bolted
I've seen nothing to suggest he was motivated by money, nor some ideological commitment to Putinist Russia. Possibly fame. The useful idiot explanation seems to fit best based on the facts I've seen.
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Snowden's not a whistleblower. There's no evidence whatsoever that he had in mind any reforms. He didn't take his case to anyone with the power to reform the abuses he supposedly decried. All the evidence we have is that he was a regular old spy who blew his cover to give the Russians cover for publicly releasing the documents he stole that the Russians thought would embarrass the US. 90% of what he gave the Russians was never published.
People are forgetting he was debriefed by the Chinese first.
And really, if you look at the docs and fiiles that have been released, it's all interdepartmental memos and PowerPoint presentations. No real nuts-and-bolts. All he did was download briefing material from shared drives and SharePoint. Compared to Ames, Walker, and Hannsen, his treasure is baby shit. Just a lot of "Yeah, we do that," but no real stereo instructions.
The hilariously ironic thing is, before 9/11 and the explosion of the National Security-Industrial Complex when anybody who could program HTML was needed to fight Teh Evildoers, he never would've been given a clearance. High school dropout? Underachiever with an inflated sense of self-worth? Readily identifiable counter-culture affiliations known to friends and acquaintances?
Siunds like prime Soviet recruitment material to me. Funny how things turned out.
Why would you assume that the documents he has released comprises the total of what was stolen?
I would assume the more interesting stuff is not going to get released by his handlers.
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 12:34:34 PM
Why would you assume that the documents he has released comprises the total of what was stolen?
I have not assumed that, and nowhere in my statement do I say I did, or make such allusions.
QuoteI would assume the more interesting stuff is not going to get released by his handlers.
True, by all accounts only a small percentage of his total haul has been released to date, and most of it is stuff thay makes for bad PR. But he was a Booz Allen Hamilton contractor. They can only go so deep.
So what if he were just a contractor? It sounds like access restriction mechanisms at NSA were about as robust as age restriction mechanisms on porn sites.
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful. Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people. Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful. Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people. Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.
Europe has been telling the US to stop sticking our nose in other countries business and messing up the world for the last 30 years.
Well, Trump might just them what they've been asking for, a US willing to let them handle their security without our interference. :P
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 01:59:07 PM
Well, Trump might just them what they've been asking for, a US willing to let them handle their security without our interference. :P
yes, and they will regret it.
Anyway, for Snowden, I'm expecting a full presidential pardon within 4 years. Trump will find a way to make him a hero of some anti-Obama crusade.
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 02:02:31 PM
yes, and they will regret it.
Anyway, for Snowden, I'm expecting a full presidential pardon within 4 years. Trump will find a way to make him a hero of some anti-Obama crusade.
Europe doesn't have to worry. Canadas will come to their rescue.
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful. Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people. Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.
Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside to Berkut's post.
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful. Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people. Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.
Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside to Berkut's post.
Viper seems the exact type that would cite Trump as an authority. :secret:
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful. Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people. Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.
Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside to Berkut's post.
Scared that other posters are moving in on your schtick of irrelevant and snarky posts? ^_^
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 02:02:31 PM
yes, and they will regret it.
Anyway, for Snowden, I'm expecting a full presidential pardon within 4 years. Trump will find a way to make him a hero of some anti-Obama crusade.
Europe doesn't have to worry. Canadas will come to their rescue.
We did it twice before and we'll do it again :Canuck:
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
your country is going to normalize relations with Russia
We've had normalized relations with Russia and before it with the Soviet Union since 1933. I don't know what you think the word means, but you clearly are talking out of your ass.
Ah, so good to see there's no threat to my worldview, vis a vis Snowden, at least. And yeah, to clarify, I think he's a delusional little shit with a mild messiah complex who wanted to be seen as the hero for Sticking It to the Man. So I come down on the espionage, not whistleblowing, side of things- a whistle ended up blown in the process, but only as a side effect, not because that was what Snowden set out to do.
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
I don't think Obama would agree with the term "unambiguous enemy". Certainly not publicly.
Quote from: dps on January 10, 2017, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
your country is going to normalize relations with Russia
We've had normalized relations with Russia and before it with the Soviet Union since 1933. I don't know what you think the word means, but you clearly are talking out of your ass.
I'm talking about lifting sanctions and such.
Edward Snowden was granted Russian citizenship today.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/26/putin-grants-russian-citizenship-to-us-whistleblower-edward-snowden
If I were Snowden I would turn it down. Talk about a worthless passport.
Just in time to get mobilized.
:lol:
Apparently his citizenship came with a mobilization exemption.
What a champion of liberty and transparency.