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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: DontSayBanana on January 09, 2017, 11:56:11 PM

Title: Snowden Revisited
Post by: DontSayBanana on January 09, 2017, 11:56:11 PM
In an effort to avoid threadjacking Ank (feel free to merge if unnecessary), what is this stuff about Snowden?  Did I miss a major development and the two major camps have gotten merged into one with new info, or am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Alcibiades on January 10, 2017, 12:21:58 AM
Nope, hes still a delusional piece of shit.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: PRC on January 10, 2017, 01:06:30 AM
For Russia he was (possibly still is) a useful idiot.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Zoupa on January 10, 2017, 03:11:46 AM
Quote from: Alcibiades on January 10, 2017, 12:21:58 AM
Nope, hes still a delusional piece of shit.

How so?

Genuine question. I didn't delve into Snowden much apart from what I heard on the news, "whistleblower, said the NSA was way overstepping their mission".
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2017, 07:52:18 AM
Delusions of grandeur mostly. I thought he was basically a good guy at the time, even though Ank insisted otherwise pretty passionately. Now he seems to be a pretty self important idiot.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Snowden's not a whistleblower.  There's no evidence whatsoever that he had in mind any reforms.  He didn't take his case to anyone with the power to reform the abuses he supposedly decried.  All the evidence we have is that he was a regular old spy who blew his cover to give the Russians cover for publicly releasing the documents he stole that the Russians thought would embarrass the US.  90% of what he gave the Russians was never published.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 09, 2017, 11:56:11 PM
am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?

yes
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 09, 2017, 11:56:11 PM
am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?

yes

I think that is likely the best possible case interpretation of what he did.

The likely case is that he is simply engaged in espionage.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
when did the espionage theory develop?
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 11:13:31 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
when did the espionage theory develop?

When he deliberately stole highly classified documents and gave them to foreign powers.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2017, 11:13:47 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
when did the espionage theory develop?

The very second we ever heard about him. At least on this board.

I was really surprised about how quickly he was denounced by people on this board, especially Ank who knows a thing or two about the intelligence community I think.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:17:46 AM
I guess I missed those arguments. cdm's article the other day seemed like new territory.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 11:25:55 AM
If you read the espionage statute, there isn't much argument about Snowden's guilt.  And he's already been charged.  He's not hanging around Moscow just for the borscht.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.

Now, it is possible he did this for noble reasons.

It is possible that someone robbing a 7-Eleven is doing so in order to feed some starving children, or because the owner is a drug dealer, or some other explanation other than the obvious one of the person doing the robbing simply being a thief.

But the default presumption is generally the obvious one - they are just a thief.

Snowdens actions have not suggested that he is much of anything other than a simple spy. I can be convinced otherwise, but I would need to see some actual evidence, and from what he has *actually done* (as opposed to what he and his supporters say), he looks like, at best, a useful idiot being played by Putin, and at worse simply a paid agent of the Russian intelligence services.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: LaCroix on January 10, 2017, 11:29:42 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 11:25:55 AM
If you read the espionage statute, there isn't much argument about Snowden's guilt.  And he's already been charged.  He's not hanging around Moscow just for the borscht.

oh, is that what the references here to spy and espionage mean? I misunderstood, thinking the theory was he was some semi-agent hired by the russian government before bolted
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 10, 2017, 11:31:44 AM
I've seen nothing to suggest he was motivated by money, nor some ideological commitment to Putinist Russia.  Possibly fame.  The useful idiot explanation seems to fit best based on the facts I've seen.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 10, 2017, 11:58:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Snowden's not a whistleblower.  There's no evidence whatsoever that he had in mind any reforms.  He didn't take his case to anyone with the power to reform the abuses he supposedly decried.  All the evidence we have is that he was a regular old spy who blew his cover to give the Russians cover for publicly releasing the documents he stole that the Russians thought would embarrass the US.  90% of what he gave the Russians was never published.

People are forgetting he was debriefed by the Chinese first.

And really, if you look at the docs and fiiles that have been released, it's all interdepartmental memos and PowerPoint presentations.  No real nuts-and-bolts.  All he did was download briefing material  from shared drives and SharePoint.  Compared to Ames, Walker, and Hannsen, his treasure is baby shit.  Just a lot of "Yeah, we do that," but no real stereo instructions.

The hilariously ironic thing is, before 9/11 and the explosion of the National Security-Industrial Complex when anybody who could program HTML was needed to fight Teh Evildoers, he never would've been given a clearance.  High school dropout? Underachiever with an inflated sense of self-worth? Readily identifiable counter-culture affiliations known to friends and acquaintances?
Siunds like prime Soviet recruitment material to me.  Funny how things turned out.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 12:34:34 PM
Why would you assume that the documents he has released comprises the total of what was stolen?

I would assume the more interesting stuff is not going to get released by his handlers.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 10, 2017, 12:54:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 12:34:34 PM
Why would you assume that the documents he has released comprises the total of what was stolen?

I have not assumed that, and nowhere in my statement do I say I did, or make such allusions.

QuoteI would assume the more interesting stuff is not going to get released by his handlers.

True, by all accounts only a small percentage of his total haul has been released to date, and most of it is stuff thay makes for bad PR.  But he was a Booz Allen Hamilton contractor.  They can only go so deep.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: DGuller on January 10, 2017, 01:40:48 PM
So what if he were just a contractor?  It sounds like access restriction mechanisms at NSA were about as robust as age restriction mechanisms on porn sites.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful.  Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people.  Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 01:59:07 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful.  Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people.  Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.

Europe has been telling the US to stop sticking our nose in other countries business and messing up the world for the last 30 years.

Well, Trump might just them what they've been asking for, a US willing to let them handle their security without our interference. :P
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 02:02:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 01:59:07 PM
Well, Trump might just them what they've been asking for, a US willing to let them handle their security without our interference. :P
yes, and they will regret it.

Anyway, for Snowden, I'm expecting a full presidential pardon within 4 years.  Trump will find a way to make him a hero of some anti-Obama crusade.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 02:02:31 PM
yes, and they will regret it.

Anyway, for Snowden, I'm expecting a full presidential pardon within 4 years.  Trump will find a way to make him a hero of some anti-Obama crusade.

Europe doesn't have to worry.  Canadas will come to their rescue.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful.  Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people.  Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.

Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside to Berkut's post.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: The Brain on January 10, 2017, 02:48:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside

:o
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful.  Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people.  Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.

Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside to Berkut's post.

Viper seems the exact type that would cite Trump as an authority.  :secret:
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Zoupa on January 10, 2017, 04:51:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 10, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.
Your President disagrees.

How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:
It's not helpful.  Just a reminder that your country is going to play friendly with Russia for the foreseeable future, he has a Congress full of sycophant agreeing with him and soon a Supreme Court filled with his people.  Doesn't matter how we feel about Russia, your country is going to normalize relations with Russia and Russia will keep expanding its territory until it's a serious threat to Western Europe.

Seems like a snarky, irrelevant aside to Berkut's post.

Scared that other posters are moving in on your schtick of irrelevant and snarky posts?  ^_^
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: HVC on January 10, 2017, 05:09:04 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2017, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 02:02:31 PM
yes, and they will regret it.

Anyway, for Snowden, I'm expecting a full presidential pardon within 4 years.  Trump will find a way to make him a hero of some anti-Obama crusade.

Europe doesn't have to worry.  Canadas will come to their rescue.

We did it twice before and we'll do it again :Canuck:
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: dps on January 10, 2017, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
your country is going to normalize relations with Russia

We've had normalized relations with Russia and before it with the Soviet Union since 1933.  I don't know what you think the word means, but you clearly are talking out of your ass.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: DontSayBanana on January 11, 2017, 12:22:19 AM
Ah, so good to see there's no threat to my worldview, vis a vis Snowden, at least.  And yeah, to clarify, I think he's a delusional little shit with a mild messiah complex who wanted to be seen as the hero for Sticking It to the Man.  So I come down on the espionage, not whistleblowing, side of things- a whistle ended up blown in the process, but only as a side effect, not because that was what Snowden set out to do.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 11, 2017, 12:57:07 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
How is that helpful? Also, last time I checked the current president is Obama and he agrees. :contract:

I don't think Obama would agree with the term "unambiguous enemy". Certainly not publicly.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: viper37 on January 11, 2017, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: dps on January 10, 2017, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 10, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
your country is going to normalize relations with Russia

We've had normalized relations with Russia and before it with the Soviet Union since 1933.  I don't know what you think the word means, but you clearly are talking out of your ass.
I'm talking about lifting sanctions and such.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Barrister on September 26, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Edward Snowden was granted Russian citizenship today.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/26/putin-grants-russian-citizenship-to-us-whistleblower-edward-snowden
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Valmy on September 26, 2022, 11:55:38 AM
If I were Snowden I would turn it down. Talk about a worthless passport.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: celedhring on September 26, 2022, 01:17:09 PM
Just in time to get mobilized.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Razgovory on September 26, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
:lol:
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Jacob on September 26, 2022, 01:43:23 PM
Apparently his citizenship came with a mobilization exemption.
Title: Re: Snowden Revisited
Post by: Berkut on October 13, 2022, 09:17:06 AM
What a champion of liberty and transparency.