https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pop-psych/201607/why-women-are-more-depressed-men
QuoteWhy Women Are More Depressed Than Men
Probably not because life is worse for women
Posted Jul 05, 2016
Women are more likely to be depressed than men; about twice as likely here in the US, as I have been told. It's an interesting finding, to be sure, and making sense of it poses a fun little mystery (as making sense of many things tends to). We don't just want to know that women are more depressed than men; we also want to know why women are more depressed. So what are the causes of this difference? The Mayo Clinic floats a few explanations, noting that this sex difference appears to emerge around puberty. As such, many of the explanations they put forth center around the problems that women (but not men) might face when undergoing that transitional period in their life. These include things like increased pressure to achieve in school, conflict with parents, gender confusion, PMS, and pregnancy-related factors. They also include ever-popular suggestions such as societal biases that harm women. Now I suspect these are quite consistent with the answers you would get if queried your average Joe or Jane on the street as to why they think women are more depressed. People recognize that depression often appears to follow negative life events and stressors, and so they look for proximate conditions that they believe (accurately or not) disproportionately affect women.
While that seems to be a reasonable strategy, it produces results that aren't entirely satisfying. First, it seems unlikely that women face that much more stress and negative life events than men do (twice as much?) and, secondly, it doesn't do much to help us understand individual variation. Lots of people face negative life events, but lots of them also don't end up spiraling into depression. As I noted above, our understanding of the facts related to depression can be bolstered by answering the why questions. In this case, the focus many people have is on answering the proximate whys rather than the ultimate ones. Specifically, we want to know why people respond to these negative life events with depression in the first place; what adaptive function depression might have. Though depression reactions appear completely normal to most, perhaps owing to their regularity, we need to make that normality strange. If, for example, you imagine a new mouse mother facing the stresses of caring for her young in a hostile world, a postpartum depression on her part might seem counterproductive: faced with the challenges of surviving and caring for her offspring, what adaptive value would depressive symptoms have? How would low energy, a lack of interest in important everyday activities, and perhaps even suicidal ideation help make her situation better? If anything, they would seem to disincline her from taking care of these important tasks, leaving her and her dependent offspring worse off. This strangeness, of course, wouldn't just exist in mice; it should be just as strange when we see it in humans.
The most compelling adaptive account of depression I've read (Hagen, 2003) suggests that the ultimate why of depression focuses on social bargaining. I've written about it before, but the gist of the idea is as follows: if I'm facing adversity that I am unlikely to be able to solve alone, one strategy for overcoming that problem is to recruit others in the world to help me. However, those other people aren't always forthcoming with the investment I desire. If others aren't responding to my needs adequately, it would behoove me to try and alter their behavior so as to encourage them to increase their investment in me. Depression, in this view, is adapted to do just that. The psychological mechanisms governing depression work to, essentially, place the depressed individual on a social strike. When workers are unable to effectively encourage an increased investment from their employers (perhaps in the form of pay or benefits), they will occasionally refuse to work at all until their conditions improve. While this is indeed costly for the workers, it is also costly for the employer, and it might be beneficial for the employer to cave to the demands rather than continue to face the costs of not having people work. Depression shows a number of parallels to this kind of behavior, where people withdraw from the social world – taking with them the benefits they provided to others – until other people increase their investment in the depressed individual to help see them through a tough period.
Going on strike (or, more generally, withdrawing from cooperative relationships), of course, is only one means of getting other people to increase their investment in you; another potential strategy is violence. If someone is enacting behaviors that show they don't value me enough, I might respond with aggressive behaviors to get them to alter that valuation. Two classic examples of this could be shooting someone in self-defense or a loan-shark breaking a delinquent client's legs. Indeed, this is precisely the type of function that Sell et al (2009) proposed that anger has: if others aren't giving me my due, anger motivates me to take actions that could recalibrate their concern for my welfare. This leaves us with two strategies – depression and anger – that can both solve the same type of problem. The question arises, then, as to which strategy will be the most effective for a given individual and their particular circumstances. This raises a rather interesting possibility: it is possible that the sex difference in depression exists because the anger strategy is more effective for men, whereas the depression strategy is more effective for women (rather than, say, because women face more adversity than men). This would be consistent with the sex difference in depression arising around puberty as well, since this is when sex differences in strength also begin to emerge. In other words, both men and women have to solve similar social problems; they just go about it in different ways.
Crucially, this explanation should also be able to account for within-sex differences as well: while men are more able to successfully enact physical aggression than women, not all men will be successful in that regard since not all men possess the necessary formidability. The male who is 5'5″ and 130 pounds soaking wet likely won't win against his taller, heavier, and stronger counterparts in a fight. As such, men who are relatively weak might preferentially make use of the depression strategy, since picking fights they probably won't win is a bad idea, while those who are on the stronger side might instead make use of anger more readily. Thankfully, a new paper by Hagen & Rosenstrom (2016) examines this very issue; at least part of it. The researchers sought to test whether upper-body strength would negatively predict depression scores, controlling for a number of other, related variables.
To do so, they accessed data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES), netting a little over 4,000 subjects ranging in age from 18-60. As a proxy for upper-body strength, the authors made use of the measures subjects had provided of their hand-grip strength. The participants had also filled out questions concerning their depression, height and weight, socioeconomic status, white blood cell count (to proxy health), and physical disabilities. The researchers predicted that: (1) depression should negatively correlate with grip-strength, controlling for age and sex, (2) that relationship should be stronger for men than women, and (3) that the relationship would persist after controlling for physical health. About 9% of the sample qualified as depressed and, as expected, women were more likely to report depression than men by about 1.7 times. Sex, on its own, was a good predictor of depression (in their regression, ß = 0.74).
When grip-strength was added into the statistical model, however, the effect of sex dropped into the non-significant range (ß = 0.03), while strength possessed good predictive value (ß = -1.04). In support of the first hypothesis, then, increased upper-body strength did indeed negatively correlate with depression scores, removing the effect of sex almost entirely. In fact, once grip strength was controlled for, men were actually slightly more likely to report depression than women (though this didn't appear to be significant). Prediction 2 was not supported, however, with their being no significant interaction between sex and grip-strength on measures of depression. This effect persisted even when controlling for socioeconomic status, age, anthropomorphic, and hormonal variables. However, physical disability did attenuate the relationship between strength and depression quite a bit, which is understandable in light of the fact that physically-disabled individuals likely have their formidability compromised, even if they have stronger upper bodies (an example being a man in a wheelchair having good grip strength, but still not being much use in a fight). It is worth mentioning that the relationship between strength and depression appeared to grow larger over time; the authors suggest this might have something to do with older individuals having more opportunities to test their strength against others, which sounds plausible enough.
Also worth noting is that when depression scores were replaced with suicidal ideation, the predicted sex-by-strength interaction did emerge, such that men with greater strength reported being less suicidal, while women with greater strength reported being more suicidal (the latter portion of which is curious and not predicted). Given that men succeed at committing suicide more often than women, this relationship is probably worth further examination.
Taken together with findings from Sell et al (2009) – where men, but not women, who possessed greater strength reported being quicker to anger and more successful in physical conflicts – the emerging picture is one in which women tend to (not consciously) "use" depression as a means social bargaining because it tends to work better for them than anger, whereas the reverse holds true for men. To be clear, both anger and depression are triggered by adversity, but those events interact with an individual's condition and their social environment in determining the precise response. As the authors note, the picture is likely to be a dynamic one; not one that's as simple as "more strength = less depression" across the board. Of course, other factors that co-vary with physical strength and health – like attractiveness – could also being playing a roll in the relationship with depression, but since such matters aren't spoken to directly by the data, the extent and nature of those other factors is speculative.
What I find very persuasive about this adaptive hypothesis, however – in addition to the reported data – is that many existing theories of depression would not make the predictions tested by Hagen & Rosenstrom (2016) in the first place. For example, those who claim something like, "depressed people perceive the world more accurately" would be at a bit of a loss to explain why those who perceive the world more accurately also seem to have lower upper-body strength (they might also want to explain why depressed people don't perceive the world more accurately, either). A plausible adaptive hypothesis, on the other hand, is useful for guiding our search for, and understanding of, the proximate causes of depression.
References: Hagen, E.H. (2003). The bargaining model of depression. In: Genetic and Cultural Evolution of Cooperation, P. Hammerstein (ed.). MIT Press, 95-123
Hagen, E. & Rosenstrom, T. (2016). Explain the sex difference in depression with a unified bargaining model of anger and depression. Evolution, Medicine, & Public Health, 117-132
Sell, A., Tooby, J., & Cosmides, L. (2009). Formidability and the logic of human anger. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 106, 15073-78.
Also interesting that the stock image of a woman is one of a woman wearing a niqab.
I'd imagine a lot of women who read this forum would be depressed.
Who says you have to be a woman.
I thought it was TEH WAR ON WIMMENZ
Quote from: mongers on July 06, 2016, 06:53:07 AM
I'd imagine a lot of women who read this forum would be depressed.
They need to stay in the kitchen.
Quote from: derspiess on July 06, 2016, 08:03:31 AM
I thought it was TEH WAR ON WIMMENZ
I thought it was because they tend to be shorter than men.
Of course they are. They become less marketable the older they get.
I'm not reading all that.
Quote
the gist of the idea is as follows: if I'm facing adversity that I am unlikely to be able to solve alone, one strategy for overcoming that problem is to recruit others in the world to help me. However, those other people aren't always forthcoming with the investment I desire. If others aren't responding to my needs adequately, it would behoove me to try and alter their behavior so as to encourage them to increase their investment in me. Depression, in this view, is adapted to do just that.
Good grief, that's horrible.
Maybe humans really are inherently bad after all.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 10, 2016, 03:09:48 PM
Quote
the gist of the idea is as follows: if I'm facing adversity that I am unlikely to be able to solve alone, one strategy for overcoming that problem is to recruit others in the world to help me. However, those other people aren't always forthcoming with the investment I desire. If others aren't responding to my needs adequately, it would behoove me to try and alter their behavior so as to encourage them to increase their investment in me. Depression, in this view, is adapted to do just that.
Good grief, that's horrible.
Maybe humans really are inherently bad after all.
The theory is plausible, I think.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 10, 2016, 03:09:48 PM
Good grief, that's horrible.
Maybe humans really are inherently bad after all.
Alternately, you shouldn't put too much stock in just-so evo psych theories.
Evolutionary psychology is pretty close to useless.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2016, 02:41:10 PM
Evolutionary psychology is pretty close to useless.
You're just trying to encourage us to increase our investment in you!
:yawn:
From the same website (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-7-reasons-why-depression-is-more-common-in-women):
QuoteIn recent decades depression has become increasingly common in industralized countries such as the US and the UK, and is often referred to by physicians as 'the common cold of psychiatry'.
Figures for the lifetime prevalence of depression vary according to the criteria used to define depression. Using DSM-IV's criteria for 'major depressive disorder' which are similar to the ICD-10 criteria for 'moderate depression', the lifetime prevalence of depression is about 15 percent and the point prevalence about 5 percent. This means that an average person has about a one in seven (15 percent) chance of developing depression in the course of his or her lifetime, and about a 1 in 20 (5 percent) chance of suffering from it at this very point in time.
However, these figures mask a very uneven gender distribution as depression is about twice as common in women than in men. The reasons for this uneven gender distribution are not entirely clear, but are thought to be partly biological, partly psychological, and partly sociocultural.
Biological explanations
1. Compared to men, women may have a stronger genetic predisposition to developing depression.
2. Compared to men, women are much more subjected to fluctuating hormone levels. This is especially the case around the time of childbirth and at the menopause, both of which are associated with an increased risk of developing depression.
Psychological explanations
3. Women are more ruminative than men, that is, they tend to think about things more—which, though a very good thing, may also predispose them to developing depression. In contrast, men are more likely to react to difficult times with stoicicism, anger, or substance misuse.
4. Women are generally more invested in relationships than men. Relationship problems are likely to affect them more, and so they are more likely to develop depression.
Sociocultural explanations
5. Women come under more stress than men. Not only do they have to go work just like men, but they may also be expected to bear the brunt of maintaining a home, bringing up children, caring for older relatives, and putting up with all the sexism!
6. Women live longer than men. Extreme old age is often associated with bereavement, loneliness, poor physical health, and precarity—and so with depression.
7. Women are more likely to seek out a diagnosis of depression. They are more likely to consult a physician and more likely to discuss their feelings with the physician. Conversely, physicians (whether male or female) may be more likely to make a diagnosis of depression in a woman.
Perhaps you can think of some other reasons why depression is twice as common in women than in men, in which case please do let me know!
Neel Burton is author of The Meaning of Madness, The Art of Failure: The Anti Self-Help Guide, Hide and Seek: The Psychology of Self-Deception, and other books.
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 12:44:21 PM
:yawn:
Yeah social science is pretty boring.
Anyway mentally ill men are more likely to go on a mass shooting so advantage: women.
I have to say though aren't things like clinical depression supposed to be brain chemistry things and not based on just being in a shitty situation?
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 12:49:32 PM
Yeah social science is pretty boring.
Anyway mentally ill men are more likely to go on a mass shooting so advantage: women.
I have to say though aren't things like clinical depression supposed to be brain chemistry things and not based on just being in a shitty situation?
Well-written, well-thought out social science is intriguing and thought provoking. That article is, however, neither, and therefore rather dull. It's the same reason given during the Victorian era for why women would develop "bad airs", ie faint. Turns out that the corset had more to do with it than any manipulation factors.
I'd argue that today's "corset" is the need for women to be the responsible one in the home and at work. We're expected to keep things going at home, organize, get everyone where they need to go, etc., and at the office we're supposed to be the work horses, again making sure that all flows the way its supposed to.
But what do I know....
if a woman wants a professional career and doesn't want the added responsibility of taking care of the home, she can either (1) find a partner who will take care of those responsibilities, or (2) pay others to perform those services
Boom.
Women can withhold sex to get what they want. Men cannot.
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 12:55:21 PM
Turns out that the corset had more to do with it than any manipulation factors.
Well I am skeptical on the corset thing anyway. It certainly has its fans and defenders. I mean women had been performing heavy physical labor for centuries while wearing them and they were not known for their fainting spells until this particular era. But I have heard that corset construction during this era was very bad and involved some steel boning but how common was it to wear something like that? My ancestors generally made their own clothes so I cannot see them putting steel boning in their corsets. But then none of them were known to faint either :P
But then I have no theory as why it was decided women fainted so much during this era so maybe so.
QuoteI'd argue that today's "corset" is the need for women to be the responsible one in the home and at work. We're expected to keep things going at home, organize, get everyone where they need to go, etc., and at the office we're supposed to be the work horses, again making sure that all flows the way its supposed to.
But what do I know....
Well certainly those would be very stressful expectations. To the extent this is true or not is difficult for me to say. However again my understanding is that clinical depression is a brain chemistry issue that plagues people for no logical or rational reason.
I would be very surprised if depression was actually more prevalent in women with careers and families. But, you know, you may be right.
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
if a woman wants a professional career and doesn't want the added responsibility of taking care of the home, she can either (1) find a partner who will take care of those responsibilities, or (2) pay others to perform those services
Easier said than done.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 01:41:24 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
if a woman wants a professional career and doesn't want the added responsibility of taking care of the home, she can either (1) find a partner who will take care of those responsibilities, or (2) pay others to perform those services
Easier said than done.
I guess we could just expect less productivity from women in the workplace in exchange for them doing stuff at home?
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 01:41:24 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
if a woman wants a professional career and doesn't want the added responsibility of taking care of the home, she can either (1) find a partner who will take care of those responsibilities, or (2) pay others to perform those services
Easier said than done.
I guess we could just expect less productivity from women in the workplace in exchange for them doing stuff at home?
How about you do the dishes a bit more Spicey? How about that?
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 01:48:57 PM
How about you do the dishes a bit more Spicey? How about that?
Not sure how I can do more than 100% of them. I guess I could throw some clean ones into the dishwasher :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 01:38:53 PM
Well I am skeptical on the corset thing anyway. It certainly has its fans and defenders. I mean women had been performing heavy physical labor for centuries while wearing them and they were not known for their fainting spells until this particular era. But I have heard that corset construction during this era was very bad and involved some steel boning but how common was it to wear something like that? My ancestors generally made their own clothes so I cannot see them putting steel boning in their corsets. But then none of them were known to faint either :P
But then I have no theory as why it was decided women fainted so much during this era so maybe so.
Corset construction to achieve the preferred silhouette was drastically different for women in the late 1900s than even the mid-1900s. And there was a huge difference between what was worn by middle and upper class city women than lower class or country women. I've actually got two books on this very topic, if you're interested.
Also, you'd be wrong. MOST people made their own clothes still in the late 1900s, and they did, indeed, use steel boning in their corsets. But chances are that your ancestors didn't lace them nearly as tightly as the "fashionable" women in the cities did, who also happened to be the most regular "fainters".
Quote
Well certainly those would be very stressful expectations. To the extent this is true or not is difficult for me to say. However again my understanding is that clinical depression is a brain chemistry issue that plagues people for no logical or rational reason.
I would be very surprised if depression was actually more prevalent in women with careers and families. But, you know, you may be right.
Clinical depression means that they hit specific requirements to be deemed "depressed" and not just "blue", that often shows as a difference in the brain chemistry. It can be situational (lost spouse, stressful career, etc.) or it can be innate (born with it). Anyone with depression, innate or situational, will have a different brain chemistry than someone who is not depressed.
Most studies show that working mothers are happier than SAHP, usually ascribed to a lack of measurable successes and minimal adult interactions.
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
if a woman wants a professional career and doesn't want the added responsibility of taking care of the home, she can either (1) find a partner who will take care of those responsibilities, or (2) pay others to perform those services
Agreed. And women with partners who are equal partners in the decision-making, household chores, and otherwise act as adults instead of expecting their wives to drive the bus 24-7 are generally happier.
Of course, anecdotally, there are more women looking for that type of partner than there are partners willing to be equal partners with their wives.
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 01:41:24 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
if a woman wants a professional career and doesn't want the added responsibility of taking care of the home, she can either (1) find a partner who will take care of those responsibilities, or (2) pay others to perform those services
Easier said than done.
I guess we could just expect less productivity from women in the workplace in exchange for them doing stuff at home?
Alternatively, we can expect more productivity at home from men. :)
Quote from: derspiess on July 12, 2016, 01:52:23 PM
Not sure how I can do more than 100% of them. I guess I could throw some clean ones into the dishwasher :hmm:
You could get a machine to dirty them for you. Some sort of Kritical Infinitesimal Drudge.
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 01:53:27 PM
Corset construction to achieve the preferred silhouette was drastically different for women in the late 1900s than even the mid-1900s. And there was a huge difference between what was worn by middle and upper class city women than lower class or country women. I've actually got two books on this very topic, if you're interested.
Also, you'd be wrong. MOST people made their own clothes still in the late 1900s, and they did, indeed, use steel boning in their corsets. But chances are that your ancestors didn't lace them nearly as tightly as the "fashionable" women in the cities did, who also happened to be the most regular "fainters".
:yes: And my homemade pants were GLORIOUS.
I want to point something out here.
I'm not talking about physical work. Most men that I know do easily as much - and sometimes more - housework than their wives. I'm talking about deciding what needs to be done when and by whom. Even the men that I know that do a lot of the work around the house rely on their wives to give them a "honey-do" list. They often even rely on their wives to make the decisions on how to do things, too.
Now, a lot of women bring them on themselves, myself included. We have certain ways that we like things and we've made it clear that our way is the only "right way". We set their expectations and demand (rarely request) that things be done to those specifications. This leads to a situation where the husbands are afraid to make a suggestion or to try to do things their own ways. It's just easier to go along with her, and to let her direct things.
Personally, I think that's a shitty way to have a relationship. I'm particular, but I try really hard not to be so particular that no one else in the house has a voice. In fact, I'm learning (and it's a process) to just accept that someone is washing the dishes, and not tell them how to do it. I learned this because I was realizing that I was making ALL of the decisions in the house, and it was wearing me down. I used to do the same thing at the office, and my male boss allowed me to. It was easier to just let me take the reigns, so he did. (Not just me, by the way. There's another woman in the office who's very similar only more so, and it isn't uncommon for her to make all the decisions and him to just go along so he doesn't have to deal with it.)
My point is that for whatever reason - probably something of our own doing or something that we've learned at our mothers' knees - women tend to take over the responsibilities of getting things done, and men allow it. It's an unhealthy scenario for both genders.
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 01:55:48 PMAgreed. And women with partners who are equal partners in the decision-making, household chores, and otherwise act as adults instead of expecting their wives to drive the bus 24-7 are generally happier.
Of course, anecdotally, there are more women looking for that type of partner than there are partners willing to be equal partners with their wives.
anecdotally, a number of people pick partners with whom they aren't compatible. if a local, rural environment raised most women to be traditional stay-at-home moms and most men to be traditional breadwinners, and a woman wants a different type of man and is unable to find it in her area, she can look elsewhere. there are plenty of environments that raise nontraditional types.
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 01:55:48 PMAgreed. And women with partners who are equal partners in the decision-making, household chores, and otherwise act as adults instead of expecting their wives to drive the bus 24-7 are generally happier.
Of course, anecdotally, there are more women looking for that type of partner than there are partners willing to be equal partners with their wives.
anecdotally, a number of people pick partners with whom they aren't compatible. if a local, rural environment raised most women to be traditional stay-at-home moms and most men to be traditional breadwinners, and a woman wants a different type of man and is unable to find it in her area, she can look elsewhere. there are plenty of environments that raise nontraditional types.
Now those men no longer have to marry women though.
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 02:07:52 PMI want to point something out here.
I think you've described control freaks vs. non-control freaks. I don't think there's anything more to it.
Quote from: The Brain on July 12, 2016, 02:19:12 PMNow those men no longer have to marry women though.
:D
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 01:53:27 PM
Corset construction to achieve the preferred silhouette was drastically different for women in the late 1900s than even the mid-1900s. And there was a huge difference between what was worn by middle and upper class city women than lower class or country women. I've actually got two books on this very topic, if you're interested.
Also, you'd be wrong. MOST people made their own clothes still in the late 1900s, and they did, indeed, use steel boning in their corsets. But chances are that your ancestors didn't lace them nearly as tightly as the "fashionable" women in the cities did, who also happened to be the most regular "fainters".
I think you mean the 1800s unless I really missed something about late 1900s America :P
I am actually quite interested in the topic. I read a bit about this and other women's health issues back in college and I just remembered the corset thing was particularly controversial. I have always had a thing for really serious research into the lives of the people and their issues.
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 02:19:55 PM
I think you've described control freaks vs. non-control freaks. I don't think there's anything more to it.
Well that is certainly part of it but I think there is definitely an expectation that the men are supposed to be subservient about the home stuff. Or, perhaps, was such an expectation.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 02:28:12 PM
Well that is certainly part of it but I think there is definitely an expectation that the men are supposed to be subservient about the home stuff. Or, perhaps, was such an expectation.
QuoteWe have certain ways that we like things and we've made it clear that our way is the only "right way".
this is a general behavior that's not specific to either gender. members of both genders have this. some guys go crazy when another guy grills "incorrectly," etc.
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 02:36:15 PM
this is a general behavior that's not specific to either gender. members of both genders have this. some guys go crazy when another guy grills "incorrectly," etc.
Wait your example is grilling?
I don't understand your confusion.
some types, regardless of gender, obsess over "their way" in whatever area. meri's complaint seems to have been that women are particularly controlling at home and at work because men are expected to just let women do their thing. I don't think this is true. I think some members of both genders are more controlling or less controlling based on whatever factors that are irrelevant to gender.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 02:26:25 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 01:53:27 PM
Corset construction to achieve the preferred silhouette was drastically different for women in the late 1900s than even the mid-1900s. And there was a huge difference between what was worn by middle and upper class city women than lower class or country women. I've actually got two books on this very topic, if you're interested.
Also, you'd be wrong. MOST people made their own clothes still in the late 1900s, and they did, indeed, use steel boning in their corsets. But chances are that your ancestors didn't lace them nearly as tightly as the "fashionable" women in the cities did, who also happened to be the most regular "fainters".
I think you mean the 1800s unless I really missed something about late 1900s America :P
I am actually quite interested in the topic. I read a bit about this and other women's health issues back in college and I just remembered the corset thing was particularly controversial. I have always had a thing for really serious research into the lives of the people and their issues.
Heh, if your read 19th century books,
people in general "fainted" more than they do now in response to emotional trauma (usually being revived with 'smelling salts' or brandy).
Look for example at the stories of A. Conan Doyle. In
The Empty House Watson faints when Holmes appears 'back from the dead':
QuoteI moved my head to look at the cabinet behind me. When I turned again Sherlock Holmes was standing smiling at me across my study table. I rose to my feet, stared at him for some seconds in utter amazement, and then it appears that I must have fainted for the first and the last time in my life. Certainly a grey mist swirled before my eyes, and when it cleared I found my collar-ends undone and the tingling after-taste of brandy upon my lips. Holmes was bending over my chair, his flask in his hand.
"My dear Watson," said the well-remembered voice, "I owe you a thousand apologies. I had no idea that you would be so affected."
I gripped him by the arm.
"Holmes!" I cried. "Is it really you? Can it indeed be that you are alive? Is it possible that you succeeded in climbing out of that awful abyss?"
The same thing happened in Lot 249 - to two different characters:
QuoteThere was no return of the singular sound, and Smith was about to turn to his work once more, when suddenly there broke out in the silence of the night a hoarse cry, a positive scream--the call of a man who is moved and shaken beyond all control. Smith sprang out of his chair and dropped his book. He was a man of fairly firm fibre, but there was something in this sudden, uncontrollable shriek of horror which chilled his blood and pringled in his skin. Coming in such a place and at such an hour, it brought a thousand fantastic possibilities into his head. Should he rush down, or was it better to wait? He had all the national hatred of making a scene, and he knew so little of his neighbour that he would not lightly intrude upon his affairs. For a moment he stood in doubt and even as he balanced the matter there was a quick rattle of footsteps upon the stairs, and young Monkhouse Lee, half dressed and as white as ashes, burst into his room.
"Come down!" he gasped. "Bellingham's ill."
Abercrombie Smith followed him closely down stairs into the sitting-room which was beneath his own, and intent as he was upon the matter in hand, he could not but take an amazed glance around him as he crossed the threshold. It was such a chamber as he had never seen before--a museum rather than a study. Walls and ceiling were thickly covered with a thousand strange relics from Egypt and the East. Tall, angular figures bearing burdens or weapons stalked in an uncouth frieze round the apartments. Above were bull-headed, stork-headed, cat-headed, owl-headed statues, with viper-crowned, almond-eyed monarchs, and strange, beetle-like deities cut out of the blue Egyptian lapis lazuli. Horus and Isis and Osiris peeped down from every niche and shelf, while across the ceiling a true son of Old Nile, a great, hanging-jawed crocodile, was slung in a double noose.
In the centre of this singular chamber was a large, square table, littered with papers, bottles, and the dried leaves of some graceful, palm-like plant. These varied objects had all been heaped together in order to make room for a mummy case, which had been conveyed from the wall, as was evident from the gap there, and laid across the front of the table. The mummy itself, a horrid, black, withered thing, like a charred head on a gnarled bush, was lying half out of the case, with its clawlike hand and bony forearm resting upon the table. Propped up against the sarcophagus was an old yellow scroll of papyrus, and in front of it, in a wooden armchair, sat the owner of the room, his head thrown back, his widely-opened eyes directed in a horrified stare to the crocodile above him, and his blue, thick lips puffing loudly with every expiration.
"My God! he's dying!" cried Monkhouse Lee distractedly.
He was a slim, handsome young fellow, olive-skinned and dark-eyed, of a Spanish rather than of an English type, with a Celtic intensity of manner which contrasted with the Saxon phlegm of Abercombie Smith.
"Only a faint, I think," said the medical student. "Just give me a hand with him. You take his feet. Now on to the sofa. Can you kick all those little wooden devils off? What a litter it is! Now he will be all right if we undo his collar and give him some water. What has he been up to at all?"
And again:
QuoteThe heavy gate had swung into place behind him, but he heard it dash open again before his pursuer. As he rushed madly and wildly through the night, he could hear a swift, dry patter behind him, and could see, as he threw back a glance, that this horror was bounding like a tiger at his heels, with blazing eyes and stringy arms out-thrown. Thank God, the door was ajar. He could see the thin bar of light which shot from the lamp in the hall. Nearer yet sounded the clatter from behind. He heard a hoarse gurgling at his very shoulder. With a shriek he flung himself against the door, slammed and bolted it behind him, and sank half-fainting on to the hall chair.
"My goodness, Smith, what's the matter?" asked Peterson, appearing at the door of his study.
"Give me some brandy!"
Peterson disappeared, and came rushing out again with a glass and a decanter.
"You need it," he said, as his visitor drank off what he poured out for him. "Why, man, you are as white as a cheese."
Smith laid down his glass, rose up, and took a deep breath.
"I am my own man again now," said he. "I was never so unmanned before. But, with your leave, Peterson, I will sleep here to-night, for I don't think I could face that road again except by daylight. It's weak, I know, but I can't help it."
These days, it would be odd for someone to faint from surprise or shock - man or woman. In those stories, it is considered a perfectly normal occurrence.
Corseting may explain why women fainted more, but it can't explain why
men fainted more.
My guess: it was at least in part merely a literary convention.
Yeah I was going to say something about this. Theatrical fainting was pretty common among men at the time if you believe the stories :P
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 02:47:09 PM
I don't understand your confusion.
some types, regardless of gender, obsess over "their way" in whatever area. meri's complaint seems to have been that women are particularly controlling at home and at work because men are expected to just let women do their thing. I don't think this is true. I think some members of both genders are more controlling or less controlling based on whatever factors that are irrelevant to gender.
You just happened to choose the one part of the domestic sphere the man is supposed to rule like a king :P
The home, like what color to paint the walls and shit, is the thing the woman is traditionally supposed to rule over and we are generally expected to be subservient to her whims. Or at least were. I know times are changing.
Certainly there are control freaks abound though.
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 01:56:43 PM
Alternatively, we can expect more productivity at home from men. :)
More than what?
Quote from: Malthus on July 12, 2016, 03:29:33 PM
These days, it would be odd for someone to faint from surprise or shock - man or woman. In those stories, it is considered a perfectly normal occurrence.
Corseting may explain why women fainted more, but it can't explain why men fainted more.
My guess: it was at least in part merely a literary convention.
Culture-bound syndrome. For reasons completely unknown to science and medicine, people in certain cultures get unique illnesses. For instance, if I were to turn a fan on in my room and go to sleep, I'd be fine. But if Yi did it, he'd die. Fan death only seems to affect Koreans.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 12:49:32 PM
Anyway mentally ill men are more likely to go on a mass shooting so advantage: women.
They just drown their kids, poison spouses over several years or attack pregnant women to cut out their foetueses. PLACENTAMON GO
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 12:49:32 PM
Anyway mentally ill men are more likely to go on a mass shooting so advantage: women.
They just drown their kids, poison spouses over several years or attack pregnant women to cut out their foetueses. PLACENTAMON GO
Bitches be crazy.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 02:26:25 PM
I think you mean the 1800s unless I really missed something about late 1900s America :P
D'oh! :blush:
Yes, 1800s; 19th century.
QuoteI am actually quite interested in the topic. I read a bit about this and other women's health issues back in college and I just remembered the corset thing was particularly controversial. I have always had a thing for really serious research into the lives of the people and their issues.
This is a great book on stays and corsets from the time they were invented through to the early 1800s:
https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset (https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset)
This is a freebie on Amazon right now:
https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health (https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health)
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 12, 2016, 07:00:10 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 12, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2016, 12:49:32 PM
Anyway mentally ill men are more likely to go on a mass shooting so advantage: women.
They just drown their kids, poison spouses over several years or attack pregnant women to cut out their foetueses. PLACENTAMON GO
Bitches be crazy.
Female hysteria :contract:
Quote from: LaCroix on July 12, 2016, 02:47:09 PM
I don't understand your confusion.
some types, regardless of gender, obsess over "their way" in whatever area. meri's complaint seems to have been that women are particularly controlling at home and at work because men are expected to just let women do their thing. I don't think this is true. I think some members of both genders are more controlling or less controlling based on whatever factors that are irrelevant to gender.
Yes, there are control freaks in both genders. However, at least in my sphere of friends, women are predominantly the ones who take over the home almost in its entirety. It may be from passivity by their husbands, or because they simply bulldoze their opinions to the front. I don't blame husbands for taking a back seat. Having seen how some of these women can be (and knowing how I can be even aware that it's a problem), it really is the path of least resistance for them.
These same women then go to the office and generally try the same thing there. There is no question that the bulk of the day-to-day decisions are made by the women on my team. The men generally just go along unless or until it's a major decision, one that they deem worth their time. Then, they expect to not only have a voice, but to have their voice count for two votes for every one the women have.
Two votes. I like that.
Women making decisions. How cute.
Who needs studies on why women are depressed. Just check out Languish. :P
:D
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ff/95/ca/ff95ca229698aed7353d784dde4b3ea3.jpg)
I can totally see you collecting those type of books.
Or writing his own.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2016, 04:50:24 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 12, 2016, 03:29:33 PM
These days, it would be odd for someone to faint from surprise or shock - man or woman. In those stories, it is considered a perfectly normal occurrence.
Corseting may explain why women fainted more, but it can't explain why men fainted more.
My guess: it was at least in part merely a literary convention.
Culture-bound syndrome. For reasons completely unknown to science and medicine, people in certain cultures get unique illnesses. For instance, if I were to turn a fan on in my room and go to sleep, I'd be fine. But if Yi did it, he'd die. Fan death only seems to affect Koreans.
:lol:
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
This is a great book on stays and corsets from the time they were invented through to the early 1800s:
https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset (https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset)
This is a freebie on Amazon right now:
https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health (https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health)
Sweet! Thanks.
Quote from: derspiess on July 13, 2016, 12:22:00 AM
Or writing his own.
Lol, I would'ved loved to have been a pulp novelist, churning out that magnificent crap.
Alas, the freelance writing market is not what it used to be in the 1950s.
Honestly, you know what unsolicited fiction oftentimes pays the highest per word these days? Gay fetish porn.
:mellow: :unsure: :ph34r:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 13, 2016, 10:05:54 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 13, 2016, 12:22:00 AM
Or writing his own.
Lol, I would'ved loved to have been a pulp novelist, churning out that magnificent crap.
Alas, the freelance writing market is not what it used to be in the 1950s.
Honestly, you know what unsolicited fiction oftentimes pays the highest per word these days? Gay fetish porn.
:mellow: :unsure: :ph34r:
I had a babysitter as a kid who wrote Harlequin Romances for a while for cash.
He was a 6'7" dude whose other occupation was working as a carny. :lol:
We got him because my uncle recommended him. They were army buddies. My parents needed a live-in on short notice while they travelled.
He was great, but not what you'd call typical for a babysitter ...
"What are those, matches? Don't burn yourself. And is that how I taught you how to throw a knife?"
Quote from: Valmy on July 13, 2016, 09:07:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
This is a great book on stays and corsets from the time they were invented through to the early 1800s:
https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset (https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset)
This is a freebie on Amazon right now:
https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health (https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health)
Sweet! Thanks.
Wait that freebie book is from 1864? I thought its writing style was a little weird :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 13, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
"What are those, matches? Don't burn yourself. And is that how I taught you how to throw a knife?"
Pretty much. :D
He loved his role as a sort of tattooed biker version of Marry Poppins.
One scene I can remember: his stay coincided with parent-teacher night, so he showed up with me (I think I was in grade 5). The teacher, naturally, wanted to know who this gigantic, rough looking dude was. He announced grandly, "I am in
loco parentis!" Then, he held me out at full arm's length by my belt, off the ground, and said "has this kid been bad?"
It's a wonder we didn't get a visit from child services. :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on July 13, 2016, 10:45:52 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 13, 2016, 09:07:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 12, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
This is a great book on stays and corsets from the time they were invented through to the early 1800s:
https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset (https://www.amazon.com/Stays-Body-Image-London-Staymaking/dp/1848930895/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367864&sr=1-7&keywords=Victorian+corset)
This is a freebie on Amazon right now:
https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health (https://www.amazon.com/Health-clothing-constructed-accordance-physiological-ebook/dp/B00S6KZ33U/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468367991&sr=1-7&keywords=corsets+and+health)
Sweet! Thanks.
Wait that freebie book is from 1864? I thought its writing style was a little weird :lol:
Dude, you wanted it straight from the source, right? ;)