QuoteA teenager from Quebec has discovered an ancient Mayan city without leaving his province's borders.
William Gadoury is a 15-year-old student from Saint-Jean-de-Matha in Lanaudière, Quebec. The precocious teen has been fascinated by all things Mayan for several years, devouring any information he could find on the topic.
During his research, Gadoury examined 22 Mayan constellations and discovered that if he projected those constellations onto a map, the shapes corresponded perfectly with the locations of 117 Mayan cities. Incredibly, the 15-year-old was the first person to establish this important correlation, reported the Journal de Montreal over the weekend.
Then Gadoury took it one step further. He examined a twenty-third constellation which contained three stars, yet only two corresponded to known cities.
Gadoury's hypothesis? There had to be a city in the place where that third star fell on the map.
Satellite images later confirmed that, indeed, geometric shapes visible from above imply that an ancient city with a large pyramid and thirty buildings stands exactly where Gadoury said they would be. If the find is confirmed, it would be the fourth largest Mayan city in existence.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/quebec-teen-discovers-ancient-mayan-ruins-by-170620746.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/forgotten-mayan-city-discovered-in-central-america-by-15-year-old-a7021291.html
If they indeed confirm the finding, that's awesome.
Based on what we learned about the social sciences in that other thread, it seems unlikely that this kid will be a republican.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 10, 2016, 12:06:51 PM
Based on what we learned about the social sciences in that other thread, it seems unlikely that this kid will be a republican.
:lol:
Well that is pretty freaking amazing. I hope the Mexican Government will suitably recognize his contribution.
I wonder if Mayan constellation means the way the stars are positioned in the sky or something else. If the former, that seems like a pretty dumbass method of choosing city locations.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 10, 2016, 12:21:45 PM
I wonder if Mayan constellation means the way the stars are positioned in the sky or something else. If the former, that seems like a pretty dumbass method of choosing city locations.
Mystical beliefs have been a dumbass method for humans to do things for a very long time :P
Quote from: Valmy on May 10, 2016, 12:14:30 PM
Well that is pretty freaking amazing. I hope the Mexican Government will suitably recognize his contribution.
You know damned well they'll just steal the poor kid's sunglasses.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 10, 2016, 12:06:51 PM
Based on what we learned about the social sciences in that other thread, it seems unlikely that this kid will be a republican.
Also, because he's Canadian.
Neat. Also that fucker.
Quote from: derspiess on May 10, 2016, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 10, 2016, 12:14:30 PM
Well that is pretty freaking amazing. I hope the Mexican Government will suitably recognize his contribution.
You know damned well they'll just steal the poor kid's sunglasses.
No big deal, Canadians rarely see the sun.
:cool:
I don't understand how the constellations and map worked.
... and apparently it was a hoax story. Oh well :(
Did they salvage that alien craft in the Baltic btw?
:nelson:
Quote from: Jacob on May 10, 2016, 02:53:24 PM
... and apparently it was a hoax story. Oh well :(
What a random thing to hoax about.
'New Phoenician City discovered by precocious Mongolian kid'
'Ok that's pretty neat.'
'HAHA just kidding.'
'Or not...whatever.'
It was a hoax in the sense that the entire story is a fabrication, or a hoax in the sense that the kid made up a story and bullshitted to the media?
If it is a hoax, it is going to be because of trafficking with the pictures, but his project is indeed listed on past Quebec Science fairs websites, and there are independent interviews with the guy from the Canadian Space Agency in charge of data analysis. Some experts are skeptical.
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 10, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
If it is a hoax, it is going to be because of trafficking with the pictures, but his project is indeed listed on past Quebec Science fairs websites, and there are independent interviews with the guy from the Canadian Space Agency in charge of data analysis. Some experts are skeptical.
What I read (and I'll dig up the link) that the kid indeed developed the theory, and located the site... but that the site is not a Mayan site but basically an old field, and that various science reporters have run with the kid's theory as if it was real. So not a hoax by the kid - he gets kudos for his research and interest, and for an interesting hypothesis - but that people have simple run with the ball too far because it'd be a neat if it was true.
Quote from: Jacob on May 10, 2016, 04:23:43 PMWhat I read (and I'll dig up the link) that the kid indeed developed the theory, and located the site... but that the site is not a Mayan site but basically an old field, and that various science reporters have run with the kid's theory as if it was real.
Yes, that is what I have read from skeptical experts. The initial
Journal de Montréal article did mention - as the kid himself mentioned - that the theory needed to be confirmed by having people on ground reach the site, but it was buried in the over enthusiastic tone.
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 10, 2016, 04:29:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 10, 2016, 04:23:43 PMWhat I read (and I'll dig up the link) that the kid indeed developed the theory, and located the site... but that the site is not a Mayan site but basically an old field, and that various science reporters have run with the kid's theory as if it was real.
Yes, that is what I have read from skeptical experts. The initial Journal de Montréal article did mention - as the kid himself mentioned - that the theory needed to be confirmed by having people on ground reach the site, but it was buried in the over enthusiastic tone.
Yeah, no aspersions on the young man at all.
Anyhow, what I've seen is one of the experts saying that - but only on his FB feed here: https://www.facebook.com/david.stuart.520?fref=nf&pnref=story
The kid's theory is neat, but implies a degree of central planning (and deliberate disregard of geography) that would have been literally impossible for the ancient Maya.
The Mayans were organized around warring alliances of city-states; the Mayan cities were built over hundreds of years, often in response to local economic and strategic factors. We know a lot about this because of recent advances in decoding Mayan writing. There is simply no way that they could have deliberately 'placed' cities to correspond with constellations, even if they wanted to - they were not a unified kingdom with central city planning, but a culture-area which more resembles warring-states China or ancient Greece.
I'm curious how the kid would have gotten access to Mayan maps.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 11, 2016, 08:32:23 AM
I'm curious how the kid would have gotten access to Mayan maps.
Surely that would all be publicly available to any motivated enthusiast. It is not like Mayan studies are a state secret.
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 08:26:03 AM
The kid's theory is neat, but implies a degree of central planning (and deliberate disregard of geography) that would have been literally impossible for the ancient Maya.
There does not need to be any central planning. All you need are people watching the stars and building their temples according to stars&constallations, around which the cities organize themselves. I don't see anything scifi-ish here, just people of a common culture, language and religion looking up at the stars to build their temple.
It ain't unique to Mayas either, lots of civilizations seems to have built important buildings in relation to
What I wonder though:
- The kid poses a theory in regard to constellations and city building
- That theory is validated by the CSA et the Japanese space agency, meaning there are cities where he claims there are and they match constellations
- The kid did present his theory to Mexican archeologist (no names given in the article) who did not totally rebuke it, in fact, the details are sketchy, but they hint at the possibility that they are trying to organize an expedition, 40km from the nearest city, to verify the claims. A second article talks of air survey to scout the location and the path, before attempting anything else.
- The original article on-line does not give any Google Earth map of the site, only a general geographic location, which located the city square in Belize, but as now since shifted back to Mexico in the on-line articles.
- The coordinates given in the original article 17N 90W does not appear to match the description that Calakmul is the nearest city, 40km
away in the jungle. In fact, 17N 90W is in Guatemala. The previous map located the city in Belize while they talk of Mexico.
- The paper claims to have had access to the satellite images, which they double-check with telemetry specialists and they talk of 30 structures, not just one pyramid. I have not seen these images, except in the BBC article.
Deriving any conclusions one way or another seems premature at this point, especially if one does not have the correct coordinates.
It's not like newspaper have a good track record in reporting scientific news.
Original article (French) (http://www.journaldequebec.com/2016/05/07/un-ado-decouvre-une-cite-maya)
Follow up (French) (http://www.journaldequebec.com/2016/05/11/la-cite-maya-est-a-40km-de-marche)
Quote from: viper37 on May 11, 2016, 09:31:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 08:26:03 AM
The kid's theory is neat, but implies a degree of central planning (and deliberate disregard of geography) that would have been literally impossible for the ancient Maya.
There does not need to be any central planning. All you need are people watching the stars and building their temples square in the city center, around which the cities organize themselves. I don't see anything scifi-ish here, just people of a common culture, language and religion looking up at the stars.
That isn't how cities are built, though (particularly Mayan cities). They usually grow organically from small villages located in useful places for agriculture, trade, or defense, or located close to useful water sources, and only when they get large enough and wealthy enough because of successes in these areas, develop massive temple architecture.
Here's an actual scholarly description:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00045600902931785?journalCode=raag20
QuoteThe ancient Maya occupied tropical lowland Mesoamerica and farmed successfully to support an elaborate settlement pattern that developed over many centuries. There has been debate as to the foundation of the settlement patterns. We show that Maya settlement locations were strongly influenced by environmental factors, primarily topographic slope, soil fertility, and soil drainage properties. Maps of these characteristics were created at the local scale and combined using Bayesian weights-of-evidence methods to develop probabilistic maps of settlement distributions based on the known, but incomplete, distribution of Maya archaeological sites, both domestic and monumental. The predictive model was validated with independently collected point-sampled field data for both presence and absence, predicting 82 percent of undiscovered Maya sites and 94 percent of site absence. This information should be of use in conservation planning for the region, which is under threat from contemporary agricultural expansion.
How can ancient Mayan settlement patterns correspond
both with (I) an elaborate development over many centuries based on local environmental factors, and (II) a mapping of important cosmological correspondences?
The answer, of course, is that it can't. Which is more likely - that the Maya (despite not having a common government) spontaneously decided to place cities where they "should" be in accordance with some grand cosmic scheme, regardless of the worth of the site for agriculture, trade or defense, or that cities grew where these factors favored them?
There are exceptions of course, like Amarna in Egypt - a city built out of nothing for ideological reasons - but they happen in the context of kingdoms capable of planning on a massive scale. Also, the place of course didn't last longer than the king who built it.
In short, a bunch of city-states are most unlikely to be organized in location in accordance with some grand overall design, particularly where such a design of necessity would go against environmental and strategic factors.
Seeing correspondences to constellations is more likely an example of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
On the other hand the Mayans did build temples and other structures based on astronomical observations. It is not totally out the realm of possibility.
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 09:49:10 AM
The answer, of course, is that it can't. Which is more likely - that the Maya (despite not having a common government) spontaneously decided to place cities where they "should" be in accordance with some grand cosmic scheme, regardless of the worth of the site for agriculture, trade or defense, or that cities grew where these factors favored them?
the last part does not have to be a truth. You could pick the location of a city or temple because it fits with all the factors you need + a constellation important to you, and then have the city develop around you. Or, simply, raze a few building in the center of the city and rebuild a temple there. I don't think ancient cities were static, in the sense that nothing ever got demolished and rebuilt. Could be wrong of course.
I'm not convinced he's on to something definite, but I think it will warrent some air expeditions to verify the claims, or ideally, more precise satellite imagery, if it can be done.
There is a perfect correlations with other
existing cities and mayan constellations, apparantly, so there is something there. It's not just that one place, which could be explained by pareidolia.
Fertile land would have been abundant in the place, before the mayans abandonned their sites and the jungle grew on it. Having fertile land for culture where you build a city and have a village grow into a city because it becomes a center of worship is not impossible.
I suspect the Mayas had a little more than 118 cities, villages and settlements at the heigt of their civilization.
It could also be that a city was first built some km away from the newly discovered potential site and later on a temple, with some smaller buildings was built there. If, as one of the later articles points out, Calakmul is very nearby (40km) and it's a site discovered in the 1930s, it could be part of a bigger complex, or some structures built a little further away.
It could also be explained by something else, totally mundane. But given the correlation to the constellations, there is something that warrants more study.
I'm guessing archeologists specialized in mayan civilizations have more date, which they can correllate with this new information and see if it still holds up.
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
On the other hand the Mayans did build temples and other structures based on astronomical observations. It is not totally out the realm of possibility.
I disagree. Building a particular complex based on astrological/astronomic alignments is a very different thing from choosing a city's location.
In the former case, the decision has already been made to build a set of ceremonial structures, and there often isn't any real practical reason to build them oriented one way or another.
In the case of a city, even leaving aside the impossibility of Mayans cooperating in some sort of grand city layout plan, there are a bunch of hard-core practical concerns as to where the damn thing has to be located. You need things like access to water, or a highly defensible location. You can't just pop them anywhere, because the star-map says so.
Take a couple of specific well-known examples.
Chichen Itza is where it is because of its massive cenotes, that provide water in a near-desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza#Location
QuoteChichen Itza is located in the eastern portion of Yucatán state in Mexico.[11] The northern Yucatán Peninsula is arid, and the rivers in the interior all run underground. There are two large, natural sink holes, called cenotes, that could have provided plentiful water year round at Chichen, making it attractive for settlement. Of the two cenotes, the "Cenote Sagrado" or Sacred Cenote (also variously known as the Sacred Well or Well of Sacrifice), is the most famous.
To anyone who has actually been to the place, its location makes perfect sense: there, in the middle of a near-desert, is a wonking huge sinkhole filled with water.
Or take Yaschilan, where I went a couple of years ago. It was very obviously placed where it is because of its location in a defencible loop of the river, that provided water and trade routes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaxchilan
QuoteYaxchilan is located on the south bank of the Usumacinta River, at the apex of a horseshoe-shaped meander. This loop defends the site on all sides except for a narrow land approach from the south.
Once again, actually visiting the site makes it obvious why the city was located there, and not somewhere else.
If the 'star map' theory was correct, it would have to account for these placements - of cities that developed hundreds of years apart, in different parts of the country (Chichen Itza rose after the collapse of the lowland Maya). It's just not on.
BUT Ancient Aliens.
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 10:39:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
On the other hand the Mayans did build temples and other structures based on astronomical observations. It is not totally out the realm of possibility.
I disagree. Building a particular complex based on astrological/astronomic alignments is a very different thing from choosing a city's location.
Told my archaeologist friend about this. He said, and I quote: "Bloody Canadian teens! Hateful little shit! Constellations indeed. Pile of arse. Sheer coincidence."
Where did the 'hateful' bit come into it?
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 11:05:24 AM
Where did the 'hateful' bit come into it?
Over here it means "deserving of hatred". Because he's a jammy git. Which may also not translate.
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 11:05:24 AM
Where did the 'hateful' bit come into it?
All teenagers are hateful little shits.
Quote from: Brazen on May 11, 2016, 11:06:40 AM
Because he's a jammy git. Which may also not translate.
Yeah it might not :lol:
Pretty harsh.
Quote from: Brazen on May 11, 2016, 11:04:50 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 10:39:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
On the other hand the Mayans did build temples and other structures based on astronomical observations. It is not totally out the realm of possibility.
I disagree. Building a particular complex based on astrological/astronomic alignments is a very different thing from choosing a city's location.
Told my archaeologist friend about this. He said, and I quote: "Bloody Canadian teens! Hateful little shit! Constellations indeed. Pile of arse. Sheer coincidence."
Your archaeologist friend is more Languish than I am. :( [hangs head in shame]
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 08:39:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 11, 2016, 08:32:23 AM
I'm curious how the kid would have gotten access to Mayan maps.
Surely that would all be publicly available to any motivated enthusiast. It is not like Mayan studies are a state secret.
No, I mean maps the Mayans used. To find cities corresponding to constellations requires the Mayans to have very accurate maps. I don't think there are any surviving maps created by the Mayans, and I doubt any maps they had are as accurate as Google earth.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 11, 2016, 12:30:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 08:39:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 11, 2016, 08:32:23 AM
I'm curious how the kid would have gotten access to Mayan maps.
Surely that would all be publicly available to any motivated enthusiast. It is not like Mayan studies are a state secret.
No, I mean maps the Mayans used. To find cities corresponding to constellations requires the Mayans to have very accurate maps. I don't think there are any surviving maps created by the Mayans, and I doubt any maps they had are as accurate as Google earth.
It's a good point, and yet another reason why this theory must be bunk. It is very unlikely that the Maya would have been able to actually do it, even if they wanted to.
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 12:33:00 PM
It's a good point, and yet another reason why this theory must be bunk. It is very unlikely that the Maya would have been able to actually do it, even if they wanted to.
Come to think of it, it does remind me a bit of the basis of bunk Egyptian Pyramids pseudo-history. They were built to reflect the exact location on the earth of Orion's Belt in the sky...which they determined somehow...even though it constantly moves around.
Maybe the re-figured their constellations after making their cities :)
Quote from: PDH on May 11, 2016, 01:13:45 PM
Maybe the re-figured their constellations after making their cities :)
Seems a reasonable hypothesis.
Dumbass kid :angry:
Quote from: derspiess on May 11, 2016, 02:24:50 PM
Dumbass kid :angry:
Harsh Spicey. I don't say that about your kid whenever he strikes out.
Quote from: PDH on May 11, 2016, 01:13:45 PM
Maybe the re-figured their constellations after making their cities :)
Italo Calvino wrote a book in which somethi9ng like that happened: http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Cities-Italo-Calvino/dp/0156453800
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 02:31:15 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 11, 2016, 02:24:50 PM
Dumbass kid :angry:
Harsh Spicey. I don't say that about your kid whenever he strikes out.
I do :ultra:
So it turns out the kid mostly likely found a pot grow op :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on May 11, 2016, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: PDH on May 11, 2016, 01:13:45 PM
Maybe the re-figured their constellations after making their cities :)
Italo Calvino wrote a book in which somethi9ng like that happened: http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Cities-Italo-Calvino/dp/0156453800
I was only half joking. Why do the constellations have to be the shapes they are? Because we say so. Is it nature, is it nurture? Let's have the dumbasses fight over that.
Quote from: HVC on May 11, 2016, 10:10:41 PM
So it turns out the kid mostly likely found a pot grow op :lol:
Is the theory now that pot grow ops are planted in accordance with the Mayan constellations? :hmm: Makes just as much sense. :D
Quote from: Malthus on May 12, 2016, 08:00:08 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 11, 2016, 10:10:41 PM
So it turns out the kid mostly likely found a pot grow op :lol:
Is the theory now that pot grow ops are planted in accordance with the Mayan constellations? :hmm: Makes just as much sense. :D
Now your jealousy of lad is really showing. :rolleyes:
:P
Quote from: mongers on May 12, 2016, 08:04:53 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 12, 2016, 08:00:08 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 11, 2016, 10:10:41 PM
So it turns out the kid mostly likely found a pot grow op :lol:
Is the theory now that pot grow ops are planted in accordance with the Mayan constellations? :hmm: Makes just as much sense. :D
How your jealous of lad is really showing. :rolleyes:
:P
Naw, just my anger - that he failed to mention the
obvious solution as to how the Mayans knew where to plant their cities: ancient aliens. :)
Malthus isn't saying it's aliens but... it's aliens.