In the last couple of months, two boys at my sons high school have killed themselves. One about 6 weeks ago, and another just last week.
Neither case had any kind of indicators that I am aware of, but we were not close to either family, so it is hard to say. Both seemed well adjusted, middle class young men.
This is really kind of freaking me out. I don't think it is possible that either of my kids would do something like that...but I suspect that their parents probably thought the same thing.
I am not even sure how to talk to them about it - and it seems like NOT talking to them about it might be the worst possible choice. I am sure it is being talked about in school.
Is it certain that they were suicides? The reason I ask is that there was a guy I went to high school with that either jumped or fell off a cliff, but there was a lot of speculation among us that he was actually pushed.
I imagine the American medical association or similar organizations has lists of warning signs. Make sure to keep in contact with your kid's teachers. They typically have the most experience in seeing changes in behavior that precipitates a suicide, and they see the kid everyday and evaluate the kid's work.
Happens in Hong Kong all the time, and it isn't just teens. I read that 15-20 students of all ages offed themselves in the past 3-4 months. Here, most schools have morning assemblies where all students line up in formation to listen to teachers' lectures. A few years ago a student chose to jump off the school building during a morning assembly, and made a splash in full view of the entire school.
It is tough Berkie.
My father's best friend daughter was by all means a happy well adjusted and beautiful kid
(was a member of the swim team, as well as diving, track and weightlifting. She was a member of the National Honor Society)
Yet one day in summer of 2012 her parents went to Home Depot only to return home and find that she had used her dad's handgun to commit suicide.
over three years later and not sure her parents have been able to recover.
There was an Atlantic article about 6 months back about suicides in the Palo Alto area. The thesis was that children of high achievers have an impossible amount of pressure to compete.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2016, 09:57:42 PM
There was an Atlantic article about 6 months back about suicides in the Palo Alto area. The thesis was that children of high achievers have an impossible amount of pressure to compete.
Phew, so Berkut's kids are safe then.
Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week. Try the veal. :P
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
I am not even sure how to talk to them about it - and it seems like NOT talking to them about it might be the worst possible choice. I am sure it is being talked about in school.
I think the important part is making sure that they feel comfortable enough about talking about it, if ever they need someone to turn to.
The few cases I know of personally (attempts only), the feeling of not being able to share their feelings, out of shame or fear of being misunderstood is what made it escalate eventually.
Is it the world we created?
Stress, Fear & the youthful inability to deal with my emotions are what gave me suicidal ideas.
I never talked about it with my parents, nor do I think they ever suspected. Someone at school told the school Psychologist.
I am not being helpful, sorry Berkut. I don't know how to deal with this either.
At my niece's school in Florida, a teenage boy shot himself in the head in front of class. He survived. Apparently he was a victim of bullying.
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2016, 09:57:42 PM
There was an Atlantic article about 6 months back about suicides in the Palo Alto area. The thesis was that children of high achievers have an impossible amount of pressure to compete.
Phew, so Berkut's kids are safe then.
Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week. Try the veal. :P
:pinch: Come on, man, that's not cool.
Apart from anything else, seems like the one obvious thing is to not have guns in the house. If all else fails and your kid's suicide attempt catches you completely by surprise, at least give your kid a chance to fuck it up.
Quote from: dps on January 17, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
Is it certain that they were suicides? The reason I ask is that there was a guy I went to high school with that either jumped or fell off a cliff, but there was a lot of speculation among us that he was actually pushed.
Yes, it is certain. In both cases there is no ambiguity.
In other news, we got to wake up this morning to the news of a double murder suicide at Genesee College, a SUNY school near Rochester, and the victims were former Rochester high schoolers.
WTF.
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2016, 09:57:42 PM
There was an Atlantic article about 6 months back about suicides in the Palo Alto area. The thesis was that children of high achievers have an impossible amount of pressure to compete.
Phew, so Berkut's kids are safe then.
Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week. Try the veal. :P
You are such a dick. :P
Thanks Marty, I actually could use a chuckle. :)
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 10:02:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2016, 09:57:42 PM
There was an Atlantic article about 6 months back about suicides in the Palo Alto area. The thesis was that children of high achievers have an impossible amount of pressure to compete.
Phew, so Berkut's kids are safe then.
Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week. Try the veal. :P
:pinch: Come on, man, that's not cool.
No worries here, it is Languish, a little morbid fucking around is to be expected. Marty is all right (in this case and in my opinion, anyway).
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 10:04:39 AM
Apart from anything else, seems like the one obvious thing is to not have guns in the house. If all else fails and your kid's suicide attempt catches you completely by surprise, at least give your kid a chance to fuck it up.
I actually do have a (moderately) secured pistol in the house, that is actually technically illegal, since it isn't registered in New York. I've been meaning to get rid of it for some time, actually, but am not really sure how to do so.
What methods were used?
My almost completely fact-free speculation is that poor teenage impulse control combined with easy access to handguns makes suicide/murder more likely.
Remembering back to when I was a teen - you get dumped by a girl, or your best friend betrays you, or whatever, and you are - very temporarily - depressed enough for self-harm ... but an hour later you are watching TV and eating chips, and that shit is in the past. Keep kids from being able to self-harm easily in that hour, and suicide rates would go down.
In HK, the majority of suicides are done by jumping off from buildings. Everybody lives in a high-rise building. Or works in one.
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2016, 10:19:20 AM
What methods were used?
My almost completely fact-free speculation is that poor teenage impulse control combined with easy access to handguns makes suicide/murder more likely.
Remembering back to when I was a teen - you get dumped by a girl, or your best friend betrays you, or whatever, and you are - very temporarily - depressed enough for self-harm ... but an hour later you are watching TV and eating chips, and that shit is in the past. Keep kids from being able to self-harm easily in that hour, and suicide rates would go down.
In this case, both of them had lots of time for consideration.
One laid down on a local train track, and left a note.
The other left the house, walked to a local park, and hung himself.
The first kid I suspect there was some bullying involved, only because his parents asked for donations to be left to an anti-bullying foundation.
The second kid I don't know - well known local family, great kid, had a twin brother in fact, was by all accounts very well liked, popular, smart, athlete, etc., etc.
It is just baffling.
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 10:28:23 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2016, 10:19:20 AM
What methods were used?
My almost completely fact-free speculation is that poor teenage impulse control combined with easy access to handguns makes suicide/murder more likely.
Remembering back to when I was a teen - you get dumped by a girl, or your best friend betrays you, or whatever, and you are - very temporarily - depressed enough for self-harm ... but an hour later you are watching TV and eating chips, and that shit is in the past. Keep kids from being able to self-harm easily in that hour, and suicide rates would go down.
In this case, both of them had lots of time for consideration.
One laid down on a local train track, and left a note.
The other left the house, walked to a local park, and hung himself.
The first kid I suspect there was some bullying involved, only because his parents asked for donations to be left to an anti-bullying foundation.
The second kid I don't know - well known local family, great kid, had a twin brother in fact, was by all accounts very well liked, popular, smart, athlete, etc., etc.
It is just baffling.
Well, that will teach me for fact-free speculating. ;)
Yeah, it is baffling.
Actually, let's question the premise of the question. Are teens actually more likely to commit suicide? If a teen is going to die, it's probably going to be from either car accident or suicide, but is it because suicide so so common in those years, or because other causes of death start surpassing the suicide risk? So far I haven't managed to find the answer on google, surprisingly, though I haven't looked for long.
Found something: http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html. Doesn't seem like teen years are the exception. If anything, they're a little lower. It could be that since there are thousands of students in a school, you're probably going to hear about someone killing themselves in some year.
When I went to highschool a guy in my year hanged himself and his younger sister found him. We all went to the burial. He hanged himself because of a girl in our class and she had a nervous breakdown at the burial. He had threatened it before to her and some friends. They all felt shit that they hadn't been able to stop him.
In my high school, we had a couple of those dreadful morning announcements over the four years, but all of them were for car accident deaths. In college, one day one of the TAs stabbed his ex-girlfriend in the chest. She managed to get away and alert security, and he shot himself when SWAT pinned him in his office.
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 10:46:51 AM
Actually, let's question the premise of the question. Are teens actually more likely to commit suicide? If a teen is going to die, it's probably going to be from either car accident or suicide, but is it because suicide so so common in those years, or because other causes of death start surpassing the suicide risk? So far I haven't managed to find the answer on google, surprisingly, though I haven't looked for long.
I wasn't aware there was a question or a premise, for that matter. But thanks?
I assumed the premise was that there was something special about the teen years that makes one more prone to suicide, that it's a dangerous phase of growing up.
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
I assumed the premise was that there was something special about the teen years that makes one more prone to suicide, that it's a dangerous phase of growing up.
I think the premise is more like 'it is very surprising and concerning, to adults (and particularly to parents), to see teens
who outwardly appear to have everything going for them commit suicide'.
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2016, 11:37:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
I assumed the premise was that there was something special about the teen years that makes one more prone to suicide, that it's a dangerous phase of growing up.
I think the premise is more like 'it is very surprising and concerning, to adults (and particularly to parents), to see teens who outwardly appear to have everything going for them commit suicide'.
If that's the premise, then I misunderstood it. But that goes for most suicides, I imagine, not just in one's teen years.
I suspect that if we see unemployed, divorced, middle aged men commit suicide nobody finds it all that surprising.
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2016, 11:37:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
I assumed the premise was that there was something special about the teen years that makes one more prone to suicide, that it's a dangerous phase of growing up.
I think the premise is more like 'it is very surprising and concerning, to adults (and particularly to parents), to see teens who outwardly appear to have everything going for them commit suicide'.
If that's the premise, then I misunderstood it. But that goes for most suicides, I imagine, not just in one's teen years.
Probably. The disconnect comes from the fact that teens who commit suicide haven't had time to accumulate the sort of long-term concerns adults worry about - money, job, divorce/marriage problems, etc. Ultimately (the thinking among parents and concerned adults goes, anyway) many teen problems are purely temporary - a girl/boy rejects you, problems with classmates, pressure to do well in school.
Fair enough.
The premise was really just "Fuck, this sucks, and I am not sure what I should do, if anything".
Wasn't trying to answer any profound questions about the rate of teen suicide in general.
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 10:16:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 17, 2016, 09:57:42 PM
There was an Atlantic article about 6 months back about suicides in the Palo Alto area. The thesis was that children of high achievers have an impossible amount of pressure to compete.
Phew, so Berkut's kids are safe then.
Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week. Try the veal. :P
You are such a dick. :P
Thanks Marty, I actually could use a chuckle. :)
I couldn't help myself. It was just too tempting. :P
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2016, 11:52:23 AM
Probably. The disconnect comes from the fact that teens who commit suicide haven't had time to accumulate the sort of long-term concerns adults worry about - money, job, divorce/marriage problems, etc. Ultimately (the thinking among parents and concerned adults goes, anyway) many teen problems are purely temporary - a girl/boy rejects you, problems with classmates, pressure to do well in school.
Yeah, but that's not the perspective most teenagers have. "This too shall pass" is - at least in my experience - not something you internalize until you've been through several bad stretches and come out on the other side.
Quote from: Jacob on January 18, 2016, 12:32:56 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 18, 2016, 11:52:23 AM
Probably. The disconnect comes from the fact that teens who commit suicide haven't had time to accumulate the sort of long-term concerns adults worry about - money, job, divorce/marriage problems, etc. Ultimately (the thinking among parents and concerned adults goes, anyway) many teen problems are purely temporary - a girl/boy rejects you, problems with classmates, pressure to do well in school.
Yeah, but that's not the perspective most teenagers have. "This too shall pass" is - at least in my experience - not something you internalize until you've been through several bad stretches and come out on the other side.
Absolutely: that's a big part of becoming an adult. Hence the disconnect between adults and teens.
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 10:04:39 AM
Apart from anything else, seems like the one obvious thing is to not have guns in the house. If all else fails and your kid's suicide attempt catches you completely by surprise, at least give your kid a chance to fuck it up.
I actually do have a (moderately) secured pistol in the house, that is actually technically illegal, since it isn't registered in New York. I've been meaning to get rid of it for some time, actually, but am not really sure how to do so.
Disassemble. Throw one piece a week into the garbage.
Yeah, everything feels a lot worse as a young person.
To live is to suffer as they say.
Another part of the problem is the social media. In days past if you had suicidal thoughts and wanted to talk to someone then you might be forced to talk to a parent, a friend (who might report it to someone else out of concern) a teacher, etc.
Nowadays you can go online to a number of social medias and be anonymous and talk to people who don't know you and don't care about you. While I'm sure many encourage suicidal people to seek help, I am positive there are also some who take the approach of "Its your life. If you aren't happy you should do what you think is best." That kind of advice is very toxic to a very young person who doesn't know better yet. It may strengthen their resolve to end their life.
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
I am not even sure how to talk to them about it - and it seems like NOT talking to them about it might be the worst possible choice. I am sure it is being talked about in school.
I'm not sure you could see the signs, unless your kid had a severe depression.
And I'm not sure a parent is the best person to talk about it either.
Maybe talk about life, how it is fun to live, instead.
Don't push your life objectives on your kid, as in the obvious "I failed as a basketball player but you'll succeed at reaching the NBA".
If he likes competition, he likes it. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. The line is very thin betwee supporting your child and pushing him too far.
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
I assumed the premise was that there was something special about the teen years that makes one more prone to suicide, that it's a dangerous phase of growing up.
Well, often it's in the young adult phase that certain mental illnesses emerge. Things like Schizophrenia. The biggest thing is to watch for changes in mood and behavior.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 18, 2016, 02:39:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
I assumed the premise was that there was something special about the teen years that makes one more prone to suicide, that it's a dangerous phase of growing up.
Well, often it's in the young adult phase that certain mental illnesses emerge. Things like Schizophrenia. The biggest thing is to watch for changes in mood and behavior.
And then you have people like Raz who get bullied by people like Martinus. Now our boy Raz is strong enough to withstand such things but what about the person who is on edge and just needs a little push and along comes the Martiniii of the world to give that push? Despicable.
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
I actually do have a (moderately) secured pistol in the house, that is actually technically illegal, since it isn't registered in New York. I've been meaning to get rid of it for some time, actually, but am not really sure how to do so.
If you are still in Rochester, NY, the city organizes from time to time anonymous buybacks. http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589966918
Quote from: Jaron on January 18, 2016, 02:23:46 PM
Yeah, everything feels a lot worse as a young person.
Yes. Everything for kids is experienced in extremes. What's good is incredible and what's bad is devastating.
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 18, 2016, 02:49:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
I actually do have a (moderately) secured pistol in the house, that is actually technically illegal, since it isn't registered in New York. I've been meaning to get rid of it for some time, actually, but am not really sure how to do so.
If you are still in Rochester, NY, the city organizes from time to time anonymous buybacks. http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589966918
If you don't want to wait, and don't care about the money, I'm 99.8% sure that if you call up the local police they will gladly take it off your hands.
I wouldn't put myself at the mercy of common sense of police officers.
"Homeowner shot after he pulled a gun on police."
Quote from: Jaron on January 18, 2016, 04:15:29 PM
"Homeowner shot after he pulled a gun on police."
Berkie has nothing to worry about. He's white. :)
DG - I did specify to call them first...
Quote from: Barrister on January 18, 2016, 04:17:44 PM
DG - I did specify to call them first...
"Sir, thank you far calling us. I appreciate your cooperation. Can you please turn around and put your hands behind your back?"
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
I am not even sure how to talk to them about it - and it seems like NOT talking to them about it might be the worst possible choice. I am sure it is being talked about in school.
Just straight up ask them, "Do you want to talk about what happened to X and Y?".
My guess is that, no they
don't want to talk about it, at least not to
you, but you'll have given them the opportunity to do so if they do want to. And if either or both of them actually do want to talk to you about it, they'll say no to start with, but then come to you separately later.
Just don't make it seem like they have to talk to you, or are expected to talk to you, about it.
Quote from: Barrister on January 18, 2016, 04:17:44 PM
Quote from: Jaron on January 18, 2016, 04:15:29 PM
"Homeowner shot after he pulled a gun on police."
Berkie has nothing to worry about. He's white. :)
DG - I did specify to call them first...
I wish it were so.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/article43654638.html
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
This is really kind of freaking me out. I don't think it is possible that either of my kids would do something like that...but I suspect that their parents probably thought the same thing.
Yeah, when I see the kinds of pressure kids have these days (from social media to all the doom and gloom speculation about their generation) it is a concern. The best we can do is let them know how much we love them, let them know we will always be there for them and that if they need to talk we are always there - then hope they take us up on the offer if the need arises.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2016, 05:06:44 PM
let them know we will always be there for them and that if they need to talk we are always there
Well, actually, hopefully, they'll outlive you, so you won't always be there for them. Though when something like this happens, it's probably not a good time to point that out to them.
Quote from: dps on January 18, 2016, 05:22:57 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2016, 05:06:44 PM
let them know we will always be there for them and that if they need to talk we are always there
Well, actually, hopefully, they'll outlive you, so you won't always be there for them. Though when something like this happens, it's probably not a good time to point that out to them.
Hopefully I live at least long enough to see them through the teen years and early adulthood. You know the thing this thread is about ;)
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 18, 2016, 02:49:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
I actually do have a (moderately) secured pistol in the house, that is actually technically illegal, since it isn't registered in New York. I've been meaning to get rid of it for some time, actually, but am not really sure how to do so.
If you are still in Rochester, NY, the city organizes from time to time anonymous buybacks. http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589966918
A Wegmans gift card! That is worth more than face value!
Quote from: dps on January 18, 2016, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
I am not even sure how to talk to them about it - and it seems like NOT talking to them about it might be the worst possible choice. I am sure it is being talked about in school.
Just straight up ask them, "Do you want to talk about what happened to X and Y?".
My guess is that, no they don't want to talk about it, at least not to you, but you'll have given them the opportunity to do so if they do want to. And if either or both of them actually do want to talk to you about it, they'll say no to start with, but then come to you separately later.
Just don't make it seem like they have to talk to you, or are expected to talk to you, about it.
That sounds like some outstanding advice. Thanks.
It opens up the door without trying to shove them through it...
Quote from: Berkut on January 18, 2016, 08:47:33 PM
Quote from: dps on January 18, 2016, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
I am not even sure how to talk to them about it - and it seems like NOT talking to them about it might be the worst possible choice. I am sure it is being talked about in school.
Just straight up ask them, "Do you want to talk about what happened to X and Y?".
My guess is that, no they don't want to talk about it, at least not to you, but you'll have given them the opportunity to do so if they do want to. And if either or both of them actually do want to talk to you about it, they'll say no to start with, but then come to you separately later.
Just don't make it seem like they have to talk to you, or are expected to talk to you, about it.
That sounds like some outstanding advice. Thanks.
It opens up the door without trying to shove them through it...
Yeap good advice. Ask if they are not comfortable talking to you, ask if there a competent adult available they can talk to? Counselor coach, teacher, family etc.
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 18, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
Yeap good advice. Ask if they are not comfortable talking to you, ask if there a competent adult available they can talk to? Counselor coach, teacher, family etc.
If my dad talked to me like that, I would be very creeped out. Just keep in mind that there is probably 99%+ chance that Berkut's son has no suicidal thoughts to act on, and if Berkut start going touchy-feely on him, Berkut Jr. is going to start having all sorts of weird thoughts. "Why is my dad talking funny to me, what did I do, what does it look like I'm doing or about to do? :huh:"
Well, your dad is kinda crazy.
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 10:56:01 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 18, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
Yeap good advice. Ask if they are not comfortable talking to you, ask if there a competent adult available they can talk to? Counselor coach, teacher, family etc.
If my dad talked to me like that, I would be very creeped out. Just keep in mind that there is probably 99%+ chance that Berkut's son has no suicidal thoughts to act on, and if Berkut start going touchy-feely on him, Berkut Jr. is going to start having all sorts of weird thoughts. "Why is my dad talking funny to me, what did I do, what does it look like I'm doing or about to do? :huh:"
I'm
not advising him to get all touchy-feely about it. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm just suggesting that he asks them if they want to talk about it, and if they do, fine, but if they don't (which they probably won't, IMO), he should just drop it and not make a big deal out of it. Because you're right, making a big deal out of it and/or insisting that they have a discussion about it probably would creep them out.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 18, 2016, 11:04:43 PM
Well, your dad is kinda crazy.
That's not a nice thing to say to someone.
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:53:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 18, 2016, 11:04:43 PM
Well, your dad is kinda crazy.
That's not a nice thing to say to someone.
I'm sorry, he's "blessed with creative insight".
Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2016, 12:32:09 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:53:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 18, 2016, 11:04:43 PM
Well, your dad is kinda crazy.
That's not a nice thing to say to someone.
I'm sorry, he's "blessed with creative insight".
You know, when someone gives you a chance to walk back a gratuitous and unnecessary insult, you should probably take it, and not double down on the insult. My dad does a thing or two I find weird, like most dads do. I may even have mentioned those things here, foolishly it seems. That doesn't give you a license to call him crazy.
It's Raz.
Quote from: DGuller on January 19, 2016, 12:48:54 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2016, 12:32:09 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 11:53:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 18, 2016, 11:04:43 PM
Well, your dad is kinda crazy.
That's not a nice thing to say to someone.
I'm sorry, he's "blessed with creative insight".
You know, when someone gives you a chance to walk back a gratuitous and unnecessary insult, you should probably take it, and not double down on the insult. My dad does a thing or two I find weird, like most dads do. I may even have mentioned those things here, foolishly it seems. That doesn't give you a license to call him crazy.
Sorry but it sounds like Raz hit a soft spot. Why do you care he said that? That seemed like an off-hand joke/comment.
FWIW, your "That's not a nice thing to say to someone" seemed more like you were playing along with the gag and pretending to be hurt for comedic value (which makes Raz's reply justified) (especially in the context of Languish "culture") than an "invitation to walk back an insult".
Quote from: Berkut on January 19, 2016, 01:02:35 AM
It's Raz.
I get annoyed by Raz more often than not but I think here his behaviour was perfectly fine. It didn't become wrong retroactively only because DGuller was unreasonably offended.
Geez, sorry DG, I didn't know you'd take it so seriously.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2016, 02:07:37 AM
Geez, sorry DG, I didn't know you'd take it so seriously.
:hug:
Quote from: DGuller on January 18, 2016, 10:56:01 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 18, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
Yeap good advice. Ask if they are not comfortable talking to you, ask if there a competent adult available they can talk to? Counselor coach, teacher, family etc.
If my dad talked to me like that, I would be very creeped out. Just keep in mind that there is probably 99%+ chance that Berkut's son has no suicidal thoughts to act on, and if Berkut start going touchy-feely on him, Berkut Jr. is going to start having all sorts of weird thoughts. "Why is my dad talking funny to me, what did I do, what does it look like I'm doing or about to do? :huh:"
Really? Some kids you know just committed suicide and if your Dad asked you if you want to talk about it, you would be creeped out? Seems like Raz might be on to something here. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 02:06:31 PM
Really? Some kids you know just committed suicide and if your Dad asked you if you want to talk about it, you would be creeped out? Seems like Raz might be on to something here. :P
Some kids you know <> some kids in your school. There are thousands of student in a typical school. Yes, if someone I knew committed suicide, that would be a whole different situation, obviously.
SO last night I am giving my daughter and her friend a ride home from cheerleading practice. They are not actuallly in high school yet, but they are both on the high school JV cheerleading squad.
Friend mentions that family is pretty upset, because her older sister was the best friend of the boy who hung himself. In fact, she was the last person he communicated with - sent her a text maybe 30 minutes prior saying "Tell <my brother> he doesn't need to pick me up, he will understand."
So of course she is blaming herself, because if she had only done XYZ, etc., etc.
Penfield is a typical school with about 1600 students. That seems like a lot, but there is no "6 degrees of separation" between any two students. More like 1 degree, 2 at the most.
Ok serious question - are boys more likely to commit suicide? It seems to me that girls are more resilient at that age but I could be wrong.
Quote from: Martinus on January 19, 2016, 02:18:28 PM
Ok serious question - are boys more likely to commit suicide? It seems to me that girls are more resilient at that age but I could be wrong.
I think you are wrong about that. It seems to be an equal opportunity tragedy.
Quote from: Martinus on January 19, 2016, 02:18:28 PM
Ok serious question - are boys more likely to commit suicide? It seems to me that girls are more resilient at that age but I could be wrong.
Seems that men are
better at it.
Women just attempt it. Men succeed. ;)
QuoteMen commit suicide at a rate four times higher than that of women. According to a report by the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI), more men in Ontario committed suicide in the past 10 years than died in car crashes.4 Approximately 591 men committed suicide in Ontario between 1990 and 2000, while 558 men died in car crashes. Women, however, make 3 to 4 times more suicide attempts than men do,5 and women are hospitalized in general hospitals for attempted suicide at 1.5 times the rate of men.6 Studies indicate that there is a significant correlation between a history of sexual abuse and the lifetime number of suicide attempts, and this correlation is twice as strong for women as for men.
https://toronto.cmha.ca/mental_health/suicide-statistics/
Not specific to teens, but oh well.
Quote from: Martinus on January 19, 2016, 02:18:28 PM
Ok serious question - are boys more likely to commit suicide? It seems to me that girls are more resilient at that age but I could be wrong.
Many times more.
Quote from: DGuller on January 19, 2016, 02:12:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 02:06:31 PM
Really? Some kids you know just committed suicide and if your Dad asked you if you want to talk about it, you would be creeped out? Seems like Raz might be on to something here. :P
Some kids you know <> some kids in your school. There are thousands of student in a typical school. Yes, if someone I knew committed suicide, that would be a whole different situation, obviously.
Again, I think this says more about you. Even if they had never spoken to one another, that fact that they went to the same school makes it at least worth asking if your own kids want to talk about it.
Quote from: DGuller on January 19, 2016, 02:23:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 19, 2016, 02:18:28 PM
Ok serious question - are boys more likely to commit suicide? It seems to me that girls are more resilient at that age but I could be wrong.
Many times more.
Males are, but boys?
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 02:25:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 19, 2016, 02:23:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 19, 2016, 02:18:28 PM
Ok serious question - are boys more likely to commit suicide? It seems to me that girls are more resilient at that age but I could be wrong.
Many times more.
Males are, but boys?
The sex ratio is consistent over ages, at about 4:1.
So here is the data in the US on teens. Girls try more often but boys succeed much more often. The reason - the boys use guns while the girls use pills. I wonder what the stats are in non gun nut countries?
QuoteOf the total number of suicides among teens ages 15 to 24 in 2001, 86% were male and 14% were female (1). The great difference between male teen suicide and female teen suicide rates is because males use firearms more to commit suicide than females (who use pills more) and succeed at suicide more than females.
According to American Psychiatric Association (2), four times as many teen males succeed at killing themselves than women; however, three times as many teen females attempt suicide. In 2001, firearms were used in 54% of youth suicides.
https://www.teenhelp.com/teen-suicide/teen-suicide-statistics/
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 02:29:02 PM
So here is the data in the US on teens. Girls try more often but boys succeed much more often. The reason - the boys use guns while the girls use pills. I wonder what the stats are in non gun nut countries?
QuoteOf the total number of suicides among teens ages 15 to 24 in 2001, 86% were male and 14% were female (1). The great difference between male teen suicide and female teen suicide rates is because males use firearms more to commit suicide than females (who use pills more) and succeed at suicide more than females.
According to American Psychiatric Association (2), four times as many teen males succeed at killing themselves than women; however, three times as many teen females attempt suicide. In 2001, firearms were used in 54% of youth suicides.
https://www.teenhelp.com/teen-suicide/teen-suicide-statistics/
It's pretty well the same though as the Canadian stats I posted for men & women generally. Women try more, but men succeed more (for whatever reason).
Looked up the data for Canada and there is an interesting cultural difference. The rates for male teens is dropping while the rate for females is rising. The reason appears to be the girls are using more lethal methods than their American counterparts - suffocation rather than pills. And the boys are not apparently using guns as much as their American counterparts.
So these findings suggest that Berkut really should get rid of that gun.
Quote"However, when we analyze males and females a little bit further and by age group, we discovered that among male children and adolescents, the suicide rates are generally decreasing, while the suicide rates among the female children and adolescents are increasing," she said from Ottawa.
Suicide rates for girls aged 10 to 14 rose to 0.9 per 100,000 in 2008 from 0.6 per 100,000 in 1980. Rates for female teens aged 15 to 19 went up to 6.2 per 100,000 increased from 3.7 per 100,000 during the same period.
"One way of understanding this is that there's a little bit of convergence among males and females," Dr. Laurence Kirmayer, a psychiatrist at McGill University, said from Montreal.
In the past, females tended to make more suicide attempts than males, but males used more lethal means, so were more likely to die, he said.
"And the difference has had to do in part with kinds of attempts, but also with the methods that people use," Kirmayer said. Self-inflicted gunshots and deliberate drug overdoses, for instance, are less often used.
Skinner said suffocation is now the most common means of committing suicide, especially among young females. Deaths by hanging or other suffocation methods have risen by eight per cent per year on average for girls, while the use of firearms and poison decreased significantly
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/02/canadian-suicide-rates-among-young-females-increased-study_n_1396980.html
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 02:33:23 PM
It's pretty well the same though as the Canadian stats I posted for men & women generally. Women try more, but men succeed more (for whatever reason).
Nope, look at the report I found on Canadian teens.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 02:37:30 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 02:33:23 PM
It's pretty well the same though as the Canadian stats I posted for men & women generally. Women try more, but men succeed more (for whatever reason).
Nope, look at the report I found on Canadian teens.
The report you found states as well that more boys kill themselves. The *rate* for girls has gone up (while for boys it has gone down), but the numbers are still uneven.
QuoteIn 2008, the most recent year for which statistics are available, 233 Canadians aged 10 to 19 — 156 males and 77 females — died by their own hands.
Boys were still twice as likely to succeed in committing suicide as girls, in the latest year. There is some convergence, but the rates are still remarkably different by sex. No stats on attempts in the article.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 03:00:36 PM
Boys were still twice as likely to succeed in committing suicide as girls, in the latest year. There is some convergence, but the rates are still remarkably different by sex. No stats on attempts in the article.
Yes, which is different than the 4x more likely to succeed in the US. It is striking that the difference between our two countries comes down to gun use. So your comment that the US rates were about the same as the Canadian misses an important point about the way in which US male teens commit suicide and the reason why they are so disproportionately successful in their attempts.
It's definitely true that gun prevalence is a very important factor in suicide rates, if not by far the most important. If you line up US states by suicide rates, and then line them up by firearm ownership rates, you're going to have very similar orderings. Of course, in this case, the "correlation is not causation" caveat does apply. So many by-state statistics in US are all very strongly correlated with each other, so you can't suss out causation just from simple statistical analysis.
Quote from: DGuller on January 19, 2016, 03:20:42 PM
It's definitely true that gun prevalence is a very important factor in suicide rates, if not by far the most important. If you line up US states by suicide rates, and then line them up by firearm ownership rates, you're going to have very similar orderings. Of course, in this case, the "correlation is not causation" caveat does apply. So many by-state statistics in US are all very strongly correlated with each other, so you can't suss out causation just from simple statistical analysis.
Sure, owning a gun doesnt cause the teen to commit suicide. But having a gun available to be used by a teen who tries to commit suicide results in a higher rate of successful suicide attempts.
Surely if the gun is available to a kid it hasn't been stored properly?
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 19, 2016, 03:20:42 PM
It's definitely true that gun prevalence is a very important factor in suicide rates, if not by far the most important. If you line up US states by suicide rates, and then line them up by firearm ownership rates, you're going to have very similar orderings. Of course, in this case, the "correlation is not causation" caveat does apply. So many by-state statistics in US are all very strongly correlated with each other, so you can't suss out causation just from simple statistical analysis.
Sure, owning a gun doesnt cause the teen to commit suicide. But having a gun available to be used by a teen who tries to commit suicide results in a higher rate of successful suicide attempts.
That's not the causation I mean here. By "cause" I mean "cause higher suicide death rates", not "cause higher suicide attempt rates". So the second sentence would still be a causative relationship.
It sure makes a lot of sense that there would be a causative relationship between having access to a gun and having a higher risk of death by suicide, but one has to be careful about confirmation bias with such things.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:25:53 PM
Sure, owning a gun doesnt cause the teen to commit suicide. But having a gun available to be used by a teen who tries to commit suicide results in a higher rate of successful suicide attempts.
That should even out the ratio then. It doesn't seem to be doing so. People who are likely only attempting suicide as a cry for help but don't really want to die aren't going to be likely to use a gun in their attempt.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:12:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 03:00:36 PM
Boys were still twice as likely to succeed in committing suicide as girls, in the latest year. There is some convergence, but the rates are still remarkably different by sex. No stats on attempts in the article.
Yes, which is different than the 4x more likely to succeed in the US. It is striking that the difference between our two countries comes down to gun use. So your comment that the US rates were about the same as the Canadian misses and important point about the way in which US males teens commit suicide and the reason why they are so disproportionately successful in their attempts.
Problem is that we may not be comparing apples to apples. Your article is about the rate in the last year available in Canada, 2008, with the point being that there has been
considerable recent change that has caused
the numbers to converge compared with stats in 1980. [The stats previously mentioned from Canada were not based on the latest year available; nor were those from the US].
The point in the article is that this is a recent development. From your article:
Quote"However, when we analyze males and females a little bit further and by age group, we discovered that among male children and adolescents, the suicide rates are generally decreasing, while the suicide rates among the female children and adolescents are increasing," she said from Ottawa.
Suicide rates for girls aged 10 to 14 rose to 0.9 per 100,000 in 2008 from 0.6 per 100,000 in 1980. Rates for female teens aged 15 to 19 went up to 6.2 per 100,000 increased from 3.7 per 100,000 during the same period.
The rate for girls has increased considerably, while that for boys has "decreased"; it is entirely possible that the difference in 1980 was "4X" (though they don't give all the figures), because it is still "2X" after this convergence.
If the rate in Canada *used* to be considerably more uneven (maybe even 4X), and since has decreased to 2X, what does that do to your "the difference is guns"? Canada didn't have a US style gun culture in 1980. It hasn't given up guns in the 1980-2008 period. The difference in gun culture between the two countries can't really explain this difference, because the rates have changed while the "gun culture" in Canada hasn't.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 19, 2016, 03:29:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:25:53 PM
Sure, owning a gun doesnt cause the teen to commit suicide. But having a gun available to be used by a teen who tries to commit suicide results in a higher rate of successful suicide attempts.
That should even out the ratio then. It doesn't seem to be doing so. People who are likely only attempting suicide as a cry for help but don't really want to die aren't going to be likely to use a gun in their attempt.
The problem with your explanation is that the rate of successful suicide rate amongst males in Canada is lower than in the US because Canadian males don't use guns as much as their American counterparts. An explanation seems to be that among those who really do intend to commit suicide the success rate is much higher in a country that has ready access to guns.
Damn, another interesting thread hijacked by the Canadian legal mafia. :P
edit:Back to Berkut's dilemma, I wasn't going to post this, but since he's talked to two of the teens and has a good understanding of the dynamics of the case, I should point out there was a cluster of suicides around some schools in South Wales a few years back and there might be something in the reporting you might find useful with your own school's problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgend_suicide_incidents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgend_suicide_incidents)
Quote
Suspected suicides in Bridgend area reach 17 as schoolgirl found hanged
Robert Booth
Wednesday 20 February 2008 10.09 GMT
A 16-year-old schoolgirl was found hanged yesterday, bringing to 17 the number of apparent suicides among youngsters in the Bridgend area since the beginning of last year.
South Wales police said Jenna Parry was discovered at 7.45am in woods near her home at Cefn Cribbwr, a small village north-west of the town.
Her death is the latest in a spate which has made Bridgend the focus of national scrutiny and the centre of a police investigation to discover possible links between the suicides. Speculation originally centred on the internet and social networking websites but police and grieving relatives moved yesterday to quash rumours of such links.
The parents of 15-year-old Nathaniel Pritchard, who apparently killed himself last week, went further and blamed their son's death on press coverage. Nathaniel's mother, Sharon, said: "It has glamorised ways of taking your life as a way of getting attention without fully realising the tragic consequences."
Last week, two cousins died within two days of each other and five people aged between 15 and 20 have died in the area this year.
"A number had access to social networking sites but there's no suggestion that anybody used these sites as a means to take their lives," said assistant chief constable Dave Morris, who is leading an investigation into the deaths. "I would like to put to bed any suggestion within the media that we are investigating suicide pacts or suicide internet links. They were all young people with big issues. There are a constellation of factors influencing these young people." These included relationship break-ups, friendship issues and family problems, he said.
Philip Walters, the coroner for Bridgend and Glamorgan Valleys, said he was convinced there was "not one great conspiracy" linking the 17 deaths, although he said there was clear evidence that the first three suicides and two subsequent pairs were linked by the victims knowing each other. "Apart from the three groupings, there are no links that I can see," he said. "Parts of the media have claimed there is an internet connection but there has been no evidence of that apart from internet tributes after the deaths."
The number of suicides in the last 12 months is above average for the area. In Bridgend, three men aged between 15 and 24 committed suicide on average every year between 1996 and 2006. Last year there were at least nine.
"Media coverage put the idea into Nathaniel's head," said Sharon Pritchard. "We never believed his death was linked to other deaths and never believed there was an internet pact. We are certain it never had anything to do with living in Bridgend."
Nathaniel died in hospital after "harming himself" last week. His cousin Kelly Stephenson, 20, was found hanged hours later while on holiday in Kent.
The police also criticised reporting of the suicides and said Bridgend is becoming "stigmatised" by the coverage.
"We are speaking to young people in Bridgend and what we are getting from them is that the media is starting to contribute to their thoughts in terms of how they feel, pressures they are under," said Morris.
A friend of Jenna's, Daniel John, 20, said: "It has been an absolute shock. She was so bubbly and carefree. I can't imagine why she would take her own life."
.....
Full article here:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/20/wales?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487 (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/20/wales?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487)
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 03:31:58 PM
The difference in gun culture between the two countries can't really explain this difference, because the rates have changed while the "gun culture" in Canada hasn't.
The article states that gun use among boys has decreased. While the article doesnt explain the reason for that decrease I think a likely explanation is that as Canada has become a more urban country access to fire arms has decreased.
Quote from: mongers on January 19, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
Damn, another interesting thread hijacked by the Canadian legal mafia. :P
You don't think the impact of guns on the success rate of male teen suicide in the US is worth discussing?
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:39:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 03:31:58 PM
The difference in gun culture between the two countries can't really explain this difference, because the rates have changed while the "gun culture" in Canada hasn't.
The article states that gun use among boys has decreased. While the article doesnt explain the reason for that decrease I think a likely explanation is that as Canada has become a more urban country access to fire arms has decreased.
The article notes decreases in gunshots and drugs, and increase in hanging. Not sure where that leads.
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 03:42:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:39:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 19, 2016, 03:31:58 PM
The difference in gun culture between the two countries can't really explain this difference, because the rates have changed while the "gun culture" in Canada hasn't.
The article states that gun use among boys has decreased. While the article doesnt explain the reason for that decrease I think a likely explanation is that as Canada has become a more urban country access to fire arms has decreased.
The article notes decreases in gunshots and drugs, and increase in hanging. Not sure where that leads.
One thing is for sure. Less gun use.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:37:09 PM
The problem with your explanation is that the rate of successful suicide rate amongst males in Canada is lower than in the US because Canadian males don't use guns as much as their American counterparts. An explanation seems to be that among those who really do intend to commit suicide the success rate is much higher in a country that has ready access to guns.
Or maybe suicidal Canadian males are just less competent than their US counterparts.
Canadian males are just less competent than their US counterparts. :yes: :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: mongers on January 19, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
Damn, another interesting thread hijacked by the Canadian legal mafia. :P
You don't think the impact of guns on the success rate of male teen suicide in the US is worth discussing?
Well yes, but I coudn't give up an opportunity to 'sledge' Canadians at the wicket. :P
I'm told the Canadians have a rather good cricket team.
Quote from: mongers on January 19, 2016, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: mongers on January 19, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
Damn, another interesting thread hijacked by the Canadian legal mafia. :P
You don't think the impact of guns on the success rate of male teen suicide in the US is worth discussing?
Well yes, but I coudn't give up an opportunity to 'sledge' Canadians at the wicket. :P
I'm told the Canadians have a rather good cricket team.
I think to myself "you know we have so many Indians and Pakistanis in Canada I bet we probably do".
Then I decide to check out my hypothesis:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canadacricket.com%2Fimages%2Fcanada1.jpg&hash=97154e64152e34e6190a28e3a8bc53cb5ab497a4)
Yup. :)
Quote from: mongers on January 19, 2016, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: mongers on January 19, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
Damn, another interesting thread hijacked by the Canadian legal mafia. :P
You don't think the impact of guns on the success rate of male teen suicide in the US is worth discussing?
Well yes, but I coudn't give up an opportunity to 'sledge' Canadians at the wicket. :P
I'm told the Canadians have a rather good cricket team.
Great. You have discovered the one topic that can out-bore a bevy of Canuck lawyers as a thread hijack: cricket. :P
*crickets*
Quote from: dps on January 19, 2016, 05:02:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2016, 03:37:09 PM
The problem with your explanation is that the rate of successful suicide rate amongst males in Canada is lower than in the US because Canadian males don't use guns as much as their American counterparts. An explanation seems to be that among those who really do intend to commit suicide the success rate is much higher in a country that has ready access to guns.
Or maybe suicidal Canadian males are just less competent than their US counterparts.
Certainly we are not very good at shooting ourselves. We tend to leave that to the gun nuts. :)