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Here is a text of The Giving Tree, without illustrations, for those who have never read it:  http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/35C1809B-B30D-450E-AE7C-1F399C7CA5AF/155278/TheGivingTreePoem.pdf (http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/35C1809B-B30D-450E-AE7C-1F399C7CA5AF/155278/TheGivingTreePoem.pdf)

I came across this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Tree) Wikipedia article the other day, and wondered what people took out of "The Giving Tree."

Personally I went with the nihilistic option.  Exhibit A is Shel Silverstein's portrait on the dust jacket:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Ssilverstein.jpg)

Exec sum pls.

Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2015, 02:12:33 PM
Exec sum pls.

:P

World's most divisive children's book.   :D

I took it as a parable about a parental relationship, by someone who didn't think much of humans.  ;)

I'll go with the nihilism too. It clearly depicts a slave (morally speaking) destructively taking advantage of his betters using his neediness and weakness to instill guilt.

That, or some sick view of parenting.

Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2015, 02:17:19 PM
World's most divisive children's book.   :D

I took it as a parable about a parental relationship, by someone who didn't think much of humans.  ;)

This

It could fit as a parable of Christ's love for mankind.  Trouble is Silverstein was Jewish.

Environmental message doesn't sound very likely since the tree is happy even after having been chopped down.

The friendship interpretation doesn't really seem to fit either.  The boy abandoned his friend the tree, but still the tree remained his friend and was happy?

Parenting seems about right, except it's such a warped view of parenting - that parents role is only to give without thought and without end.

Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2015, 02:17:19 PM
World's most divisive children's book.   :D

Lots of competition there.

I think it is an allegory of the soul (not understood in the sense of ritualistic faith, but as your childlike sense of wonder, your Jungian anima, your connection with the divine). You are connected with it when you are young, and then you end up selling it out, neglecting it, for material things and it withers away as you trade it for comfort, compromising on your principles, your integrity, your true nature. But in the end you go back to it, no matter how stumped it has become.

Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2015, 02:46:32 PM
I think it is an allegory of the soul. You are connected with it when you are young, and then you end up selling it out, neglecting it, for material things. But in the end you go back to it, no matter how stumped it has become.

I was gonna say 'the first person to answer the OP's question with "I'm stumped" gets fifty lashes'.  :P

Quote from: Barrister on December 14, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
It could fit as a parable of Christ's love for mankind.  Trouble is Silverstein was Jewish.

Then it only makes sense he used the allegory of a tree - as in the Qabbalistic tree of life, the symbol of the connection between the Divine and the world of matter.

Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2015, 02:51:06 PM

Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2015, 02:46:32 PM
I think it is an allegory of the soul. You are connected with it when you are young, and then you end up selling it out, neglecting it, for material things. But in the end you go back to it, no matter how stumped it has become.

I was gonna say 'the first person to answer the OP's question with "I'm stumped" gets fifty lashes'.  :P

Shush you. :D

Better tell me what you think of my interpretation (as edited). :P

Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2015, 02:52:25 PM


Shush you. :D

Better tell me what you think of my interpretation (as edited). :P

It's clever, but you have to work in a reason why the "tree" keeps being happy with each 'taking'.

Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2015, 02:55:00 PM

Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2015, 02:52:25 PM


Shush you. :D

Better tell me what you think of my interpretation (as edited). :P

It's clever, but you have to work in a reason why the "tree" keeps being happy with each 'taking'.

Because it is infinite and it is in its nature to provide. It is the Holy Grail, and its nature is to nourish.

Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2015, 02:58:08 PM

Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2015, 02:55:00 PM

Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2015, 02:52:25 PM


Shush you. :D

Better tell me what you think of my interpretation (as edited). :P

It's clever, but you have to work in a reason why the "tree" keeps being happy with each 'taking'.

Because it is infinite and it is in its nature to provide. It is the Holy Grail, and its nature is to nourish.

Look at Marty getting all Joseph Campbell on us. ;)

 :P

I'm stumped.

By coincidence on the way home this evening, I walked past a stray apple tree and for some odd reason it still had a pretty good crop of apples on it, in December!  :hmm:

Was it 'telling' me something?

I reckon it's a metaphor for parenting.

Given that it's ostensibly a children's book, and that typically those are bought by parents, I assume that the intention is to instill a decent sense of guilt into the little bastards.  :P

'See? You are nothing but a greedy little parasite that takes and takes and gives nothing in return. But we parents are happy about that, because we are selfless - why, you could take my very body, and I'd just be happy about it'.  :D

Quote from: Savonarola on December 14, 2015, 02:04:57 PM
Here is a text of The Giving Tree, without illustrations, for those who have never read it:  http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/35C1809B-B30D-450E-AE7C-1F399C7CA5AF/155278/TheGivingTreePoem.pdf (http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/35C1809B-B30D-450E-AE7C-1F399C7CA5AF/155278/TheGivingTreePoem.pdf)

I came across this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Tree) Wikipedia article the other day, and wondered what people took out of "The Giving Tree."

Thank you. It was beautiful.

Quote from: Malthus on December 14, 2015, 03:54:43 PM
Given that it's ostensibly a children's book, and that typically those are bought by parents, I assume that the intention is to instill a decent sense of guilt into the little bastards.  :P

'See? You are nothing but a greedy little parasite that takes and takes and gives nothing in return. But we parents are happy about that, because we are selfless - why, you could take my very body, and I'd just be happy about it'.  :D

Well, that's Shel Silverstein for you... he never was one for saccharine sentiment

Nice text.

More Shel Silverstein poetry for children:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/61/e9/1161e9eeeffb757973539e245766277b.jpg)

Quote from: Jacob on December 14, 2015, 04:06:13 PM
More Shel Silverstein poetry for children:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/61/e9/1161e9eeeffb757973539e245766277b.jpg)

Or if you prefer here's Silverstein (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvNhhEtUGJY) reading it.

It is about a tree that gives, sheesh why do you people have to find any other meaning to it.

I don't remember ever hearing about this.

Quote from: katmai on December 14, 2015, 04:35:55 PM
It is about a tree that gives, sheesh why do you people have to find any other meaning to it.

:rolleyes:

My Dad made fun of this book so much reading it to me as a kid that I find it hard to take seriously now.

Quote from: katmai on December 14, 2015, 04:35:55 PM
It is about a tree that gives, sheesh why do you people have to find any other meaning to it.

That tree had issues. Co-dependency issues.

Trees are not known for their robust decision making skills

It's an allegory about Jewish parental guilt-tripping.

What is The Bloated Meskimo about?

Quote from: The Brain on December 14, 2015, 04:49:38 PM
What is The Bloated Meskimo about?

Quote from: googleNo results found for "The Bloated Meskimo"

What about 'The Singing Ringing Tree'?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstaticmass.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2Fring_1.jpg&hash=5b07ac10754bd6e3a3af9a05ad8c41b183051e55)

Quote from: Barrister on December 14, 2015, 05:02:06 PM

Quote from: The Brain on December 14, 2015, 04:49:38 PM
What is The Bloated Meskimo about?

Quote from: googleNo results found for "The Bloated Meskimo"

Thank you for at least trying to help.

Quote from: katmai on December 14, 2015, 04:35:55 PM
It is about a tree that gives, sheesh why do you people have to find any other meaning to it.

Well presumably it was read at the first funeral I ever attended for a reason.

It means that some people are never happy and if you keep making sacrifices to make them happy, they'll eventually make a boat out of you and you'll die.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2015, 07:38:34 PM
they'll eventually make a boat out of you

I hate it when that happens.

Quote from: Valmy on December 14, 2015, 04:42:15 PM
My Dad made fun of this book so much reading it to me as a kid that I find it hard to take seriously now.

Now that explains so much, like why you became a pole dancer.

That avatar.  :lmfao:

I hate that fucking book. Nihilism is a bitch.

You don't understand.

Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2015, 05:05:50 PM
What about 'The Singing Ringing Tree'?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstaticmass.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2Fring_1.jpg&hash=5b07ac10754bd6e3a3af9a05ad8c41b183051e55)

Papa Bear runs off with Goldilocks, Mama Bear blames baby.

An interesting range of replies.

In the beginning the boy is in a state of grace akin to Rousseau's "noble savage". Both tree and boy are happy and love each other. The boy matures and "needs" different things, the tree continues to love the boy but there is no mention of the love being reciprocal. The boy takes everything the tree has to give but finds no true happiness. In the end the tree gives the only thing it can, a resting place, the boy takes that just like he took everything else.......with no thanks. The story ends with the boy sitting on the stump, he is not happy but the tree is happy. Because it is a children's story the next bit is not covered; which is when the boy dies and his rotting corpse provides nutrients for the pollarded stump which regrows and regains its former glory.

For me it is very much an allegory of man's relationship with the environment and his dubious notions concerning what is valuable.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 15, 2015, 02:59:49 AM
Because it is a children's story the next bit is not covered; which is when the boy dies and his rotting corpse provides nutrients for the pollarded stump which regrows and regains its former glory.

Which is a shame because children are okay with stuff like that; the grosser the better, in fact.  It's adults that don't like to be reminded that someday soon they'll be food for worms.   ;)

Quote from: Barrister on December 14, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
It could fit as a parable of Christ's love for mankind.  Trouble is Silverstein was Jewish.

Plus he chose a chose a dust jacket cover that makes him look like an axe murderer.  If I ever found myself in Pierre Gringoire's position and had to convince the king of the Truands that poets were part of the criminal element that's the picture I'd use.

;)

Shel may not have had any specific idea when he wrote the story.  It's ambiguous enough that every person will bring his own experience to the story and, similar to The Lady and the Tiger, what you read into it says something about you.  The parents on this forum have mostly read it as an incomplete metaphor for parenting, for instance.

So, since this thread came about... guess what book was given to my kids at Christmas, and guess which book has been repeatedly demanded at bedtime?

So, after repeated readings, I'm still not super fond of the book, but I have changed my take on it.

The Tree is not actually a good role model.  The tree is not happy giving so much of itself to the boy - there's one line "And the tree was happy... but not really".  And giving so much of itself to the boy didn't actually make the boy happy either.

What the book is about is anti-materialism - things will not make you happy, and self-sacrifice will not make you happy.  The only things to make you happy are to spend time with loved ones.

I'm not sure I would put 'self-sacrifice' in the same camp as materialism.

Yi was right earlier in the thread: it's a dead-on allegory of Jewish smotherhood.

Quote from: garbon on February 16, 2016, 06:55:33 PM
I'm not sure I would put 'self-sacrifice' in the same camp as materialism.

Blame Silverstein, not me.

I really think it would point out your analysis is flawed. -_-

Quote from: garbon on February 16, 2016, 06:55:33 PM
I'm not sure I would put 'self-sacrifice' in the same camp as materialism.

But it's the flip side of the same coin, especially in the context BB used it (which is the context of the poem we are discussing, my dear grumbler-in-training) - you are using things to make yourself feel better. In "self-sacrifice" it is perhaps more disguised, as you are heaping things on someone else to make yourself feel better about yourself as opposed to just amassing things, but the end result is the same - instead of a real human bond, you build your relationship on codependency and resentment, that is not healthy at all.

Quote from: Martinus on February 17, 2016, 01:34:07 AM

Quote from: garbon on February 16, 2016, 06:55:33 PM
I'm not sure I would put 'self-sacrifice' in the same camp as materialism.

But it's the flip side of the same coin, especially in the context BB used it (which is the context of the poem we are discussing, my dear grumbler-in-training) - you are using things to make yourself feel better. In "self-sacrifice" it is perhaps more disguised, as you are heaping things on someone else to make yourself feel better about yourself as opposed to just amassing things, but the end result is the same - instead of a real human bond, you build your relationship on codependency and resentment, that is not healthy at all.

I think that you are trying to change the meaning of the terms to avoid conceding that you may be wrong, my dear Raz-in-training.  Self-sacrifice isn't about giving material things.  it is about giving up things so that another person can advance themselves.  That's usually done through education, membership in teams and organizations, and the like.  The tree at the end of the story is not unhappy.

it is true that the story is a story of a dysfunctional relationship, but it is also clear that the reason the relationship is dysfunctional is because the boy cannot have functional relationships with anyone.  He's broken, and not even the most generous spirit in the world can fix him.