QuoteFree Ottawa yoga class scrapped over 'cultural issues'
BY AEDAN HELMER, OTTAWA SUN
FIRST POSTED: FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 2015 08:58 PM EST | UPDATED: SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2015 09:00 PM EST
QMI_20151120EM19
Jennifer Scharf is a yoga instructor who had delivered a free class to students at the University of Ottawa for the past seven years that was cancelled this year due to a complaint that yoga constitutes "cultural appropriation." Errol McGihon/Ottawa Sun
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Student leaders have pulled the mat out from 60 University of Ottawa students, ending a free on-campus yoga class over fears the teachings could be seen as a form of "cultural appropriation."
Jennifer Scharf, who has been offering free weekly yoga instruction to students since 2008, says she was shocked when told in September the program would be suspended, and saddened when she learned of the reasoning.
Staff at the Centre for Students with Disabilities believe that "while yoga is a really great idea and accessible and great for students ... there are cultural issues of implication involved in the practice," according to an email from the centre.
The centre is operated by the university's Student Federation, which first approached Scharf seven years ago about offering yoga instruction to students both with and without disabilities.
The centre goes on to say, "Yoga has been under a lot of controversy lately due to how it is being practiced," and which cultures those practices "are being taken from."
The centre official argues since many of those cultures "have experienced oppression, cultural genocide and diasporas due to colonialism and western supremacy ... we need to be mindful of this and how we express ourselves while practising yoga."
The concept of cultural appropriation is normally applied when a dominant culture borrows symbols of a marginalized culture for dubious reasons -- such as the fad of hipsters donning indigenous headdresses as a fashion statement, without any regard to cultural significance or stereotype.
But Scharf, a yoga teacher with the downtown Rama Lotus Centre, said the concept does not apply in this case, arguing the complaint that killed the program came instead from a "social justice warrior" with "fainting heart ideologies" in search of a cause celebre.
"People are just looking for a reason to be offended by anything they can find," said Scharf.
"There's a real divide between reasonable people and those people just looking to jump on a bandwagon. And unfortunately, it ends up with good people getting punished for doing good things."
There were about 60 students who participated in the free program.
Acting student federation president Romeo Ahimakin denied the decision resulted from a complaint.
Ahimakin said the student federation put the yoga session on hiatus while they consult with students "to make it better, more accessible and more inclusive to certain groups of people that feel left out in yoga-like spaces. ... We are trying to have those sessions done in a way in which students are aware of where the spiritual and cultural aspects come from, so that these sessions are done in a respectful manner."
Scharf offered a compromise, suggesting she change the name from yoga to "mindful stretching," since that would reflect the content of the program and would "literally change nothing about the course."
"I'm not pretending to be some enlightened yogi master, and the point (of the program) isn't to educate people on the finer points of the ancient yogi scripture," she told the Sun.
"The point is to get people to have higher physical awareness for their own physical health and enjoyment."
According to email correspondence between Scharf and the centre, student leaders debated rebranding the program, but stumbled over how the French translation for "mindful stretching" would appear on a promotional poster, and eventually decided to suspend the program.
Student federation official Julie Seguin sympathized with Scharf over e-mail, defending the use of the term "yoga," and saying, "I am also still of the opinion that a single complaint does not outweigh all of the good that these classes have done."
Seguin said "labeling the CSD's yoga lessons as cultural appropriation is questionable (and) debatable" and called on further discussion with the student executive.
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/11/20/free-ottawa-yoga-class-scrapped-over-cultural-issues
This story is awesome. :cool:
My favourite part is how they wanted to try and get it re-named "mindful stretching", but couldn't come up with a French translation. :lol:
Stretchy-bendy-breathy?
Was wondering how long it would take to reach languish.
Wow, Canada is fucked up. :lol:
Can't stand this new cultural appropriation trend. That stuff with the kimonos and the asian-americans the other year... :bleeding:
If the Onion posted this, I would say they are pushing it - no leftists are that idiotic.
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:20:53 PM
If the Onion posted this, I would say they are pushing it - no leftists are that idiotic.
If not for idiocy, there would be no leftists.
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:17:50 PM
Wow, Canada is fucked up. :lol:
Never confuse Ontario with Canada - its actually one of the red flags one is from Ontario :D
Quote from: dps on November 23, 2015, 03:22:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:20:53 PM
If the Onion posted this, I would say they are pushing it - no leftists are that idiotic.
If not for idiocy, there would be no leftists.
Yeah, all we would be left with are those beacons of intellectual rigor running for the Republican nomination. ;)
Quote"People are just looking for a reason to be offended by anything they can find," said Scharf.
Amen sister.
I can't wait for the inevitable backlash.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 23, 2015, 03:22:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:17:50 PM
Wow, Canada is fucked up. :lol:
Never confuse Ontario with Canada - its actually one of the red flags one is from Ontario :D
The way Canada is fucked up: any idiocy is an excuse for regionalism. :P
Oh, Canada. :(
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:28:39 PM
I can't wait for the inevitable backlash.
It'll be pretty ugly.
This is a great way to encourage an insular, anti-multicultural mindset among people. It's like teh No Nothings have been operating in the Left the same way HYDRA was in SHIELD.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 23, 2015, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:28:39 PM
I can't wait for the inevitable backlash.
It'll be pretty ugly.
This is a great way to encourage an insular, anti-multicultural mindset among people. It's like teh No Nothings have been operating in the Left the same way HYDRA was in SHIELD.
Yeah I have been saying during the last few months of the refugee crisis. The left is so out of touch and idiotic on this, people will end up flocking to the authoritarian right.
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2015, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:17:50 PM
Wow, Canada Universities are fucked up. :lol:
FYP.
Yeah, this is key. Bill Maher for instance, who's about as left as they come, has been going on at length of late, about the craziness of political correctness at universities.
I guess it's a sign of how good things are now, that so-called liberals need to come up with this shit to bitch about.
there was a meme on social media that had a cartoon of students carrying signs and saying "We are angry as hell. We're not sure yet what about."
Quote from: Malthus on November 23, 2015, 03:28:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 23, 2015, 03:22:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:17:50 PM
Wow, Canada is fucked up. :lol:
Never confuse Ontario with Canada - its actually one of the red flags one is from Ontario :D
The way Canada is fucked up: any idiocy is an excuse for regionalism. :P
:lol:
Quote from: Josephus on November 23, 2015, 03:43:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2015, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:17:50 PM
Wow, Canada Universities are fucked up. :lol:
FYP.
Yeah, this is key. Bill Maher for instance, who's about as left as they come, has been going on at length of late, about the craziness of political correctness at universities.
I guess it's a sign of how good things are now, that so-called liberals need to come up with this shit to bitch about.
there was a meme on social media that had a cartoon of students carrying signs and saying "We are angry as hell. We're not sure yet what about."
I love Bill Maher - he is my kind of left.
Can someone explain to me the concept of "cultural appropriation", by the way?
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:49:10 PM
Can someone explain to me the concept of "cultural appropriation", by the way?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cultural+appropriation
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:49:10 PM
Can someone explain to me the concept of "cultural appropriation", by the way?
Seems like a feature not a bug.
Cultural Appropriation is not a particularly useful concept because it is so arbitrary and difficult to define. And of course it brings up the issue of who owns a culture and who doesn't which is equally arbitrary and difficult to define, and whomever this owner is can theoretically give or withdraw permission for "their" culture to be used in such way I presume?
I think this is a fight against tackiness and lack of respect for certain cultural practices and traditions but I think one can claim something is tacky and not authentic without insinuating some kind of atrocity has occurred.
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2015, 03:55:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:49:10 PM
Can someone explain to me the concept of "cultural appropriation", by the way?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cultural+appropriation
Google all you want you will never get a good answer for this question.
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 04:13:35 PM
Cultural Appropriation is not a particularly useful concept because it is so arbitrary and difficult to define. And of course it brings up the issue of who owns a culture and who doesn't which is equally arbitrary and difficult to define, and whomever this owner is can theoretically give or withdraw permission for "their" culture to be used in such way I presume?
I think this is a fight against tackiness and lack of respect for certain cultural practices and traditions but I think one can claim something is tacky and not authentic without insinuating some kind of atrocity has occurred.
Ah ok so it's another way for the idiots on the left to feel bad about themselves?
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:39:15 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 23, 2015, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 03:28:39 PM
I can't wait for the inevitable backlash.
It'll be pretty ugly.
This is a great way to encourage an insular, anti-multicultural mindset among people. It's like teh No Nothings have been operating in the Left the same way HYDRA was in SHIELD.
Yeah I have been saying during the last few months of the refugee crisis. The left is so out of touch and idiotic on this, people will end up flocking to the authoritarian right.
it's the logical end-result of political-correctness.
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2015, 04:25:48 PM
Ah ok so it's another way for the idiots on the left to feel bad about themselves?
There is something noble about try to make a more just society so in the important issues I feel like I am aligned with leftists on social issues. But prioritizing justice above everything, like reasonableness and good sense, and becoming obsessed with a kind of purely just existence can take people down some absurd paths.
The right wing freedom nuts we have here in the US are the same. Sure freedom and justice are great and excellent foundation values for our civilization and all but let's not go crazy. They are not the only principles to consider here.
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 04:13:35 PM
Cultural Appropriation is not a particularly useful concept because it is so arbitrary and difficult to define. And of course it brings up the issue of who owns a culture and who doesn't which is equally arbitrary and difficult to define, and whomever this owner is can theoretically give or withdraw permission for "their" culture to be used in such way I presume?
I think this is a fight against tackiness and lack of respect for certain cultural practices and traditions but I think one can claim something is tacky and not authentic without insinuating some kind of atrocity has occurred.
Doesn't seem so. The Japanese were the ones behind the kimono exhibition that was canceled due to protests.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 23, 2015, 05:09:47 PM
Doesn't seem so. The Japanese were the ones behind the komino exhibition that was canceled due to protests.
Wow. Ok then.
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 04:50:45 PM
There is something noble about try to make a more just society so in the important issues I feel like I am aligned with leftists on social issues. But prioritizing justice above everything, like reasonableness and good sense, and becoming obsessed with a kind of purely just existence can take people down some absurd paths.
The right wing freedom nuts we have here in the US are the same. Sure freedom and justice are great and excellent foundation values for our civilization and all but let's not go crazy. They are not the only principles to consider here.
The problem IMO is not prioritizing justice above everything else, but rather granting carte blanche to vocal, heavily-politicized, "socially aware" spokespeople for protected minorities to decide what is offensive. That's a recipe for everything to be offensive.
I've made jokes to my yoga-enthusiast friends about how they're guilty of cultural appropriation. I guess it's no longer a joke.
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 05:18:19 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 23, 2015, 05:09:47 PM
Doesn't seem so. The Japanese were the ones behind the komino exhibition that was canceled due to protests.
Wow. Ok then.
I suspect a lot of the protesters were Koreans/Chinese using it as a vehicle to stick it to the Japanese.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 23, 2015, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 05:18:19 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 23, 2015, 05:09:47 PM
Doesn't seem so. The Japanese were the ones behind the komino exhibition that was canceled due to protests.
Wow. Ok then.
I suspect a lot of the protesters were Koreans/Chinese using it as a vehicle to stick it to the Japanese.
Or just the typical wackos who slither out to get the emotional high that comes from self righteous chest beating.
Quote from: derspiess on November 23, 2015, 05:41:31 PM
I've made jokes to my yoga-enthusiast friends about how they're guilty of cultural appropriation. I guess it's no longer a joke.
There is no joke too absurd about this topic that cannot become reality.
Tumblr has made the leap into meatspace. :showoff:
Quote from: Legbiter on November 23, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
meatspace. :showoff:
Sounds like a gay dating site. :unsure:
Does this mean that the Native American art that I buy/collect is cultural appropriation...even though that when I am buying it, I am supporting those very same struggling artists that I am appropriating from?
How do I resolve this white man's paradoxical burden? :(
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 04:13:35 PM
Cultural Appropriation is not a particularly useful concept because it is so arbitrary and difficult to define. And of course it brings up the issue of who owns a culture and who doesn't which is equally arbitrary and difficult to define, and whomever this owner is can theoretically give or withdraw permission for "their" culture to be used in such way I presume?
I think this is a fight against tackiness and lack of respect for certain cultural practices and traditions but I think one can claim something is tacky and not authentic without insinuating some kind of atrocity has occurred.
This. Couldn't the argument be made that most of the francophone Quebecois culture is "cultural appropriation" of French culture?
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 23, 2015, 09:58:00 PM
Does this mean that the Native American art that I buy/collect is cultural appropriation...even though that when I am buying it, I am supporting those very same struggling artists that I am appropriating from?
How do I resolve this white man's paradoxical burden? :(
By the rules of cultural appropriation, you are allowed to buy or appreciate an expression of ethnic identity if it is created by a person of that ethnicity.
Quote from: derspiess on November 23, 2015, 05:41:31 PM
I've made jokes to my yoga-enthusiast friends about how they're guilty of cultural appropriation. I guess it's no longer a joke.
Who wants to appropriate their dirty ass culture, chock full of rape-rape entitlement, sex-selective abortion, dowry murders and other nifty gender inequalities--especially since you've got your own kindler, gentler misogynistic culture thingy going on, amirite?
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 23, 2015, 09:58:00 PM
Does this mean that the Native American art that I buy/collect is cultural appropriation...even though that when I am buying it, I am supporting those very same struggling artists that I am appropriating from?
How do I resolve this white man's paradoxical burden? :(
Take a big solid dump with maize in it.
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 04:13:35 PM
Cultural Appropriation is not a particularly useful concept because it is so arbitrary and difficult to define. And of course it brings up the issue of who owns a culture and who doesn't which is equally arbitrary and difficult to define, and whomever this owner is can theoretically give or withdraw permission for "their" culture to be used in such way I presume?
I think this is a fight against tackiness and lack of respect for certain cultural practices and traditions but I think one can claim something is tacky and not authentic without insinuating some kind of atrocity has occurred.
English Canadians can speak French and eat poutine whenever they want, I won't feel offended by this cultural appropriation, I swear.
Interestingly, the radical Hindutva types would agree that this is "cultural appropriation". I doubt the students would agree with many of the other views of the Hindutva types though.
I think it's time to apply the concept of "cultural appropriation" to everything. Like, cars, sanitation, penicilin and rule of law. :hmm:
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 24, 2015, 01:39:56 AM
Interestingly, the radical Hindutva types would agree that this is "cultural appropriation". I doubt the students would agree with many of the other views of the Hindutva types though.
Cool?
Damn, and here I was thinking that borrowing and cultural cross-fertilization was supposed to be a GOOD thing. Probably every single aspect of our culture has been borrowed from another culture at some point in history.
If there are vague "respect" issues at hand, look at that, not at the phenomenon of cultural borrowing itself.
Quote from: celedhring on November 24, 2015, 05:15:43 AM
Damn, and here I was thinking that borrowing and cultural cross-fertilization was supposed to be a GOOD thing. Probably every single aspect of our culture has been borrowed from another culture at some point in history.
If there are vague "respect" issues at hand, look at that, not at the phenomenon of cultural borrowing itself.
Yes. I think intent is important here. In a globalized society trying to keep every culture segregated and every cultural element controlled by the Academy is a fools errand anyway. I think establishing some basic rules of etiquette might be useful rather than just flailing around at arbitrary things and subjectively declaring a crime has occurred.
Quote from: garbon on November 24, 2015, 01:45:25 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 24, 2015, 01:39:56 AM
Interestingly, the radical Hindutva types would agree that this is "cultural appropriation". I doubt the students would agree with many of the other views of the Hindutva types though.
Cool?
Radical nationalists suck and should not be heeded.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 23, 2015, 11:59:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 23, 2015, 05:41:31 PM
I've made jokes to my yoga-enthusiast friends about how they're guilty of cultural appropriation. I guess it's no longer a joke.
Who wants to appropriate their dirty ass culture, chock full of rape-rape entitlement, sex-selective abortion, dowry murders and other nifty gender inequalities--especially since you've got your own kindler, gentler misogynistic culture thingy going on, amirite?
:lol:
:hug:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 23, 2015, 09:59:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2015, 04:13:35 PM
Cultural Appropriation is not a particularly useful concept because it is so arbitrary and difficult to define. And of course it brings up the issue of who owns a culture and who doesn't which is equally arbitrary and difficult to define, and whomever this owner is can theoretically give or withdraw permission for "their" culture to be used in such way I presume?
I think this is a fight against tackiness and lack of respect for certain cultural practices and traditions but I think one can claim something is tacky and not authentic without insinuating some kind of atrocity has occurred.
This. Couldn't the argument be made that most of the francophone Quebecois culture is "cultural appropriation" of French culture?
I don't know, it's more like we appropriate American culture & translate it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2015, 03:27:48 PM
Quote"People are just looking for a reason to be offended by anything they can find," said Scharf.
Amen sister.
Lol, double Amen on that. :huh:
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 24, 2015, 11:15:54 AM
I don't know, it's more like we appropriate American culture & translate it.
Impossible. When this appears to be happening, it's due to American cultural imperialism. :mad:
Personally, I am offended by all of those hipsters, celebrities and others using Yiddish words. :mad: They have a lot of chutzpah.
You so meshuggeneh.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 24, 2015, 11:15:54 AM
I don't know, it's more like we appropriate American culture & translate it.
It is not appropriation to take American culture because we export it and are a gigantic world power. I think. It only applies to minority colonized cultures. But then India today is a gigantic power itself that exports its culture around the world so...as I said it is arbitrary.
Quote from: Malthus on November 24, 2015, 11:22:15 AM
Personally, I am offended by all of those hipsters, celebrities and others using Yiddish words. :mad: They have a lot of chutzpah.
Mazeltov
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 11:38:19 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 24, 2015, 11:15:54 AM
I don't know, it's more like we appropriate American culture & translate it.
It is not appropriation to take American culture because we export it and are a gigantic world power. I think. It only applies to minority colonized cultures. But then India today is a gigantic power itself that exports its culture around the world so...as I said it is arbitrary.
It is fueled by white guilt.
This is just another extreme example of the silliness of the narcissistic left.
It is one of the reasons why even more stupid shit like Trumparson have traction.
Quote from: Berkut on November 24, 2015, 12:41:47 PM
This is just another extreme example of the silliness of the narcissistic left.
It is one of the reasons why even more stupid shit like Trumparson have traction.
The left is in full narcissisistic mode here in the UK. We have a quite unpleasant government, of dubious competence, and they are getting a free ride due to leftish navel-gazing :mad:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 23, 2015, 11:59:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on November 23, 2015, 05:41:31 PM
I've made jokes to my yoga-enthusiast friends about how they're guilty of cultural appropriation. I guess it's no longer a joke.
Who wants to appropriate their dirty ass culture, chock full of rape-rape entitlement, sex-selective abortion, dowry murders and other nifty gender inequalities--especially since you've got your own kindler, gentler misogynistic culture thingy going on, amirite?
Pretty much.
I don't care about yoga. But this better not affect the popularity of yoga pants.
This is some BULLSHIT.
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 02:01:09 PM
I don't care about yoga. But this better not affect the popularity of yoga pants.
Oh man, wearing the clothing would definitely be cultural appropriation! Probably a major micro-aggression too. ;)
:cry:
Quote from: lustindarkness on November 24, 2015, 02:01:09 PM
I don't care about yoga. But this better not affect the popularity of yoga pants.
Shit just got real. :mad:
Yoga pants are not going anywhere guys. My wife wears them and she does not even do Yoga.
They might have to change the name to 'comfy pants' or something though.
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
Yoga pants are not going anywhere guys. My wife wears them and she does not even do Yoga.
They might have to change the name to 'comfy pants' or something though.
Comfy describes sweat pants better.
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
Yoga pants are not going anywhere guys. My wife wears them and she does not even do Yoga.
They might have to change the name to 'comfy pants' or something though.
Mindful Stretching Pants.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 24, 2015, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
Yoga pants are not going anywhere guys. My wife wears them and she does not even do Yoga.
They might have to change the name to 'comfy pants' or something though.
Comfy describes sweat pants better.
I have been reliably informed yoga pants are comfier. I wear neither sweat pants nor yoga pants so cannot confirm or deny this. It might just be because it is Texas thus too hot to normally wear sweat pants.
I practice yoga but I couldn't care less about the Indian culture. I also practice qabbalah but I couldn't care less about Orthodox Judaism.
Am I: cultural appropriator? :ph34r:
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2015, 02:54:10 PM
I practice yoga but I couldn't care less about the Indian culture. I also practice qabbalah but I couldn't care less about Orthodox Judaism.
Am I: cultural appropriator? :ph34r:
Maybe.
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
Yoga pants are not going anywhere guys. My wife wears them and she does not even do Yoga.
They might have to change the name to 'comfy pants' or something though.
Yeah, need to change the name, for sure. Can't take a chance of offending any of the delicate flowers out there who may get a case of the vapors. :boff:
I can accept a name change.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 24, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 24, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
Yoga pants are not going anywhere guys. My wife wears them and she does not even do Yoga.
They might have to change the name to 'comfy pants' or something though.
Mindful Stretching Pants.
Won't work - no appropriate French translation.
There was no need to appropriate yoga. Christian tradition is full of examples of mindful stretching.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstuffo.hswstatic.com%2Fstuffyoushouldknow-podcasts%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F16%2F2013%2F07%2Ftorture-600x350.jpg&hash=3d89491aaad160ab72bf4b113f44ee7d5c753740)
:lol:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 24, 2015, 12:44:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 24, 2015, 12:41:47 PM
This is just another extreme example of the silliness of the narcissistic left.
It is one of the reasons why even more stupid shit like Trumparson have traction.
The left is in full narcissisistic mode here in the UK. We have a quite unpleasant government, of dubious competence, and they are getting a free ride due to leftish navel-gazing :mad:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUp8z7bWEAAzirZ.jpg:large)
When Tumblr snowflakes finish college and enter government, academia and the general workforce things will get rather interesting.
Why don't we say we will accept Syrian refugees if ISIS accepts these people in exchange? :P
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 24, 2015, 05:36:03 PM
There was no need to appropriate yoga. Christian tradition is full of examples of mindful stretching.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstuffo.hswstatic.com%2Fstuffyoushouldknow-podcasts%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F16%2F2013%2F07%2Ftorture-600x350.jpg&hash=3d89491aaad160ab72bf4b113f44ee7d5c753740)
That looks more like pilates to me.
Pontii Pilates?
What the fuck is Sanism? I had to look that up. Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2015, 10:36:10 AM
That looks more like pilates to me.
What are you, the Inquisition police?
Fine, have some more accurate Christian mindful stretching
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimmaculateheartacademy.org%2FOutside2%2Fenglish%2Fabdallah%2FLiterature%2520-%2520Romeo%2520and%2520Juliet%2520Documents%2FTortureRack.jpg&hash=560ac80fae8532085c63fa0b38ac5d06a4706fc5)
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2015, 11:11:55 AM
What the fuck is Sanism? I had to look that up. Jesus Christ.
How anti-neurodivergent of you.
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 25, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2015, 10:36:10 AM
That looks more like pilates to me.
What are you, the Inquisition police?
Fine, have some more accurate Christian mindful stretching
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimmaculateheartacademy.org%2FOutside2%2Fenglish%2Fabdallah%2FLiterature%2520-%2520Romeo%2520and%2520Juliet%2520Documents%2FTortureRack.jpg&hash=560ac80fae8532085c63fa0b38ac5d06a4706fc5)
Getting colder. That is preparing for bed at the CC household.
I am sure you could teach those skills in a free class at UBC. I can provide a French translation for the title of the class.
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2015, 03:37:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2015, 11:11:55 AM
What the fuck is Sanism? I had to look that up. Jesus Christ.
How anti-neurodivergent of you.
I found it amusing that you became disgusted with "SJW"s (well except on the issue of LGBTQHTTPLOL rights) and decided to project that on to me.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2015, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 24, 2015, 05:36:03 PM
There was no need to appropriate yoga. Christian tradition is full of examples of mindful stretching.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstuffo.hswstatic.com%2Fstuffyoushouldknow-podcasts%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F16%2F2013%2F07%2Ftorture-600x350.jpg&hash=3d89491aaad160ab72bf4b113f44ee7d5c753740)
That looks more like pilates to me.
It's certainly not how a Catherine Wheel was used.
Quote from: Oexmelin on November 25, 2015, 03:41:06 PM
I am sure you could teach those skills in a free class at UBC. I can provide a French translation for the title of the class.
:D
Anyone remember the yogic flying party that stood many candidates in a couple of UK general elections ? :bowler:
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2015, 05:00:57 PM
Anyone remember the yogic flying party that stood many candidates in a couple of UK general elections ? :bowler:
The "Natural Law" party wasn't it? Something like that anyway. They were always good for a laugh, especially when they bounced around like frogs.
Quote from: Agelastus on November 25, 2015, 05:05:27 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2015, 05:00:57 PM
Anyone remember the yogic flying party that stood many candidates in a couple of UK general elections ? :bowler:
The "Natural Law" party wasn't it? Something like that anyway. They were always good for a laugh, especially when they bounced around like frogs.
There is a Natural Law party in the US. If it comes down to Trump/Hillary or Carson/Vermonter I may do a write in.
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2015, 05:00:57 PM
Anyone remember the yogic flying party that stood many candidates in a couple of UK general elections ? :bowler:
Not the UK one but I fondly remember the French one :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcQCnjuAqI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcQCnjuAqI) Too brief sample of yogic flight 43 seconds into the video.
No such a thing in Portugal. :(
Quote from: mongers on November 25, 2015, 05:00:57 PM
Anyone remember the yogic flying party that stood many candidates in a couple of UK general elections ? :bowler:
Oh, we used to have those in Germany. I remember their silly TV ads of people in the lotus position bouncing around on mats. :lol:
A thread about yoga that has no video examples??
https://youtu.be/Ypiui02Iz5I
(ok, not quite yoga, but close enough)
Class is back on - now that they have an Indian yoga instructor.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/university-of-ottawa-yoga-class-cancelled-over-concerns-about-oppression-resumes-with-indian-teacher
Namaste. :lol:
I thought this thread was about the destruction of the yoga class, the politics of resentment and Donald Trump. :angry:
Quote from: Barrister on January 26, 2016, 04:48:01 PM
Class is back on - now that they have an Indian yoga instructor.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/university-of-ottawa-yoga-class-cancelled-over-concerns-about-oppression-resumes-with-indian-teacher
Pretty awful but then people who say SJW are generally pretty awful too - though I'll give the fired woman a pass in this instance as it is clear she is just venting frustration now that she's also been replaced.
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:38:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 26, 2016, 04:48:01 PM
Class is back on - now that they have an Indian yoga instructor.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/university-of-ottawa-yoga-class-cancelled-over-concerns-about-oppression-resumes-with-indian-teacher
Pretty awful but then people who say SJW are generally pretty awful too - though I'll give the fired woman a pass in this instance as it is clear she is just venting frustration now that she's also been replaced.
It's not my favourite phrase, but I think the term is warranted here.
That's great, belonging to a certain race/national origin is a requirement to be considered for the job.
What could possibly be wrong with that?
The new teacher isn't Indian herself. She was born in Canada, and has only even visited India once. She also apparently has no qualifications other than her perceived "race" and the fact that some people in her family practice yoga.
Quote from: grumbler on January 26, 2016, 06:43:33 PM
The new teacher isn't Indian herself. She was born in Canada, and has only even visited India once. She also apparently has no qualifications other than her perceived "race" and the fact that some people in her family practice yoga.
Presuming somebody has a deep knowledge of something because they look a certain way? How progressive of you Canada :P
Quote from: grumbler on January 26, 2016, 06:43:33 PM
The new teacher isn't Indian herself. She was born in Canada, and has only even visited India once. She also apparently has no qualifications other than her perceived "race" and the fact that some people in her family practice yoga.
Well surely both have the base qualification of being able to teach yoga. Your post makes it sounds like the new woman doesn't even know any yoga.
Besides it was 'perceived race' that was the issue so not surprising they would use it as the fix.
Quote from: garbon on January 27, 2016, 08:47:24 AM
Well surely both have the base qualification of being able to teach yoga. Your post makes it sounds like the new woman doesn't even know any yoga.
Oh I am sure she is just as qualified, more or less, as the woman who she replaced. It is just the assumption she has some kind of deeper knowledge or cultural appreciation because of what she looks like.
I've known never-born-there indians who were very culturally indian
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 08:59:03 AM
I've known never-born-there indians who were very culturally indian
And I have known others who were not.
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 08:58:33 AMIt is just the assumption she has some kind of deeper knowledge or cultural appreciation because of what she looks like.
and itt there are people who assume she doesn't have a deeper knowledge or cultural appreciation based on flimsy evidence
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 09:00:15 AMAnd I have known others who were not.
okay, but what makes more sense: the public canadian university removed a yoga instructor from a yoga class due to "cultural misappropriation" of indian culture and replaced the instructor with someone who had no indian culture, or the university replaced the instructor with someone who had indian culture?
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:00:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 08:58:33 AMIt is just the assumption she has some kind of deeper knowledge or cultural appreciation because of what she looks like.
and itt there are people who assume she doesn't have a deeper knowledge or cultural appreciation based on flimsy evidence
Whomever those people are should feel ashamed. But nobody is claiming that. Rather that she has no golden trophy of superiority to teach something because she looks like people of a certain country. Like demanding a Chinese language teacher look Chinese.
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 09:06:11 AMWhomever those people are should feel ashamed. But nobody is claiming that. Rather that she has no golden trophy of superiority to teach something because she looks like people of a certain country. Like demanding a Chinese language teacher look Chinese.
you're assuming she was chosen simply because of her looks. why couldn't she have been chosen because (1) her looks,
and (2) she's culturally indian?
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:02:51 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 09:00:15 AMAnd I have known others who were not.
okay, but what makes more sense: the public canadian university removed a yoga instructor from a yoga class due to "cultural misappropriation" of indian culture and replaced the instructor with someone who had no indian culture, or the university replaced the instructor with someone who had indian culture?
It was not like they fired an employee here dude. They banned somebody offering free services and accused them of committing some kind of racist crime because she was not a native Indian. Then they gave their blessing to another person who was also not a native Indian but looked like one.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:08:11 AM
you're assuming she was chosen simply because of her looks. why couldn't she have been chosen because (1) her looks, and (2) she's culturally indian?
She was not "chosen" she was permitted. Others are banned.
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 09:09:04 AMIt was not like they fired an employee here dude. They banned somebody offering free services and accused them of committing some kind of racist crime because she was not a native Indian. Then they gave their blessing to another person who was also not a native Indian but looked like one.
more assumptions
original instructor was removed because she wasn't indian. they then found an indian. you and grumbler are saying the indian they found wasn't culturally indian when there's no evidence of that. if they had replaced the original instructor with an indian who wasn't culturally indian, that would be pretty dang offensive. it would also reflect really, really badly on the university when the university is already dealing with a nationally reported incident.
Quote from: ValmyShe was not "chosen" she was permitted. Others are banned.
you're dodging the question. just change what I said from "chosen" to "permit" = whether chosen or permitted... that's irrelevant to this discussion
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:15:12 AM
you're dodging the question. just change what I said from "chosen" to "permit" = whether chosen or permitted... that's irrelevant to this discussion
Yes it is. You are presenting this like they were hiring somebody for a position and wanted somebody more qualified. Which is not true.
Would the original woman have been banned if her skin color had been different even if she had not been more culturally Indian? Of course not.
Quoteoriginal instructor was removed because she wasn't indian. they then found an indian.
They found a Canadian with the right pigmentation.
Quoteoriginal instructor was removed because she wasn't indian. they then found an indian. you and grumbler are saying the indian they found wasn't culturally indian when there's no evidence of that. if they had replaced the original instructor with an indian who wasn't culturally indian, that would be pretty dang offensive. it would also reflect really, really badly on the university when the university is already dealing with a nationally reported incident.
Seriously? So they should also ban people who look Indian but are not sufficiently culturally Indian? Who determines that?
Man lots of people have be banned before we reach something non-offensive.
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:15:12 AM
you're dodging the question. just change what I said from "chosen" to "permit" = whether chosen or permitted... that's irrelevant to this discussion
Yes it is. You are presenting this like they were hiring somebody for a position and wanted somebody more qualified. Which is not true.
Would the original woman have been banned if her skin color had been different even if she had not been more culturally Indian? Of course not.
Quoteoriginal instructor was removed because she wasn't indian. they then found an indian.
They found a Canadian with the right pigmentation.
Quoteoriginal instructor was removed because she wasn't indian. they then found an indian. you and grumbler are saying the indian they found wasn't culturally indian when there's no evidence of that. if they had replaced the original instructor with an indian who wasn't culturally indian, that would be pretty dang offensive. it would also reflect really, really badly on the university when the university is already dealing with a nationally reported incident.
Seriously? So they should also ban people who look Indian but are not sufficiently culturally Indian? Who determines that?
Man lots of people have be banned before we reach something non-offensive.
I already said in this thread that the university originally made a stupid decision by trying to appease a complaint. your discussion seems focused on that original decision. we're not talking about the original instructor and the university's first decision.
just because the original instructor was removed due to her skin color (and probably because she wasn't culturally indian - if for whatever reason the original instructor was a white chick who was culturally indian and that was somehow acceptable to society, I'm guessing she wouldn't have been removed due to "cultural misappropriation"), doesn't mean the replacement was
permitted (i.e., the university
chose to permit her) solely because of her skin color. the fact that the replacement instructor has actually been to india suggests that this replacement has at least some indian cultural identity
The new Yoga teacher seems to be saying pretty expressly that she identifies as a Canadian with an "Indian background".
Quote"Nothing was brought to my attention to teach in a different way or do something differently than the other instructor because none of that was really mentioned to me," Priya Shah, the new teacher, told the CBC. "When I read [about it], I was kind of thinking 'Did they hire me because I'm Indian?. . . I was born in Calgary, I grew up in Canada but my background is Indian and I've been there once before. I was there for about five months."
She added: "There are many people in my family who practice but I've never had the thought that since I'm Indian that I'm a better yoga teacher."
Her point appears to be that her "Indian background" has
nothing whatsoever to do with her teaching of yoga, which will go on exactly as under the other instructor; she expressly states that she never thought the fact she's Indian would make her any better at it.
The inescapable suspicion is that she was hired because of her race: or, as she herself put it, "Did they hire me because I'm Indian?". Apparently, there was no issue of actual changing the
content of the course: "Nothing was brought to my attention to teach in a different way or do something differently than the other instructor because none of that was really mentioned to me...".
Quote from: garbon on January 27, 2016, 08:47:24 AM
Well surely both have the base qualification of being able to teach yoga. Your post makes it sounds like the new woman doesn't even know any yoga.
I can only reach conclusions based on eidence. Your "surely" conclusion isn't based on any evidence (in fact, the new teacher, being interviewed about the job, never even mentions that she practices yoga, just that some of her family does). Sorry the truth makes it sound like something you don't like, but I can't change the evidence.
QuoteBesides it was 'perceived race' that was the issue so not surprising they would use it as the fix.
That's what makes it so funny and, at the same time, so pathetic. "Indian" is a "race," now? Racist organizations should be run off campus, not accommodated.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:15:12 AM
more assumptions
original instructor was removed because she wasn't indian. they then found an indian. you and grumbler are saying the indian they found wasn't culturally indian when there's no evidence of that. if they had replaced the original instructor with an indian who wasn't culturally indian, that would be pretty dang offensive. it would also reflect really, really badly on the university when the university is already dealing with a nationally reported incident.
More assumptions. You have no idea how "culturally Indian" (whatever that means) the new instructor is, nor how many "culturally Indian" points the university required the new teacher to have to be able to pass the "culturally Indian" litmus test... if being "culturally Indian" was even a factor (which no one says it was). The new teacher has the right skin color and name to satisfy the racist litmus test, so she's in.
And this is a public university doing this? They really should know better.
Oh wait...she was hired? I thought this was a volunteer instructor giving free classes? Maybe I misunderstood.
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
Oh wait...she was hired? I thought this was a volunteer instructor giving free classes? Maybe I misunderstood.
The article doesn't go into detail but it she new teacher uses the word "hired".
Quote"Nothing was brought to my attention to teach in a different way or do something differently than the other instructor because none of that was really mentioned to me," Priya Shah, the new teacher, told the CBC. "When I read [about it], I was kind of thinking 'Did they hire me because I'm Indian?. . . I was born in Calgary, I grew up in Canada but my background is Indian and I've been there once before. I was there for about five months."
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 01:11:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
Oh wait...she was hired? I thought this was a volunteer instructor giving free classes? Maybe I misunderstood.
The article doesn't go into detail but it she new teacher uses the word "hired".
She could be using the word "hired" pretty loosely, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that the instructor gets paid by the Center, while the classes are free to the students. If this was more like a club, with free membership and a volunteer instructor, I'm not sure the student government
could shut it down without presenting just cause. Ending something the university is paying for would look just like the case we saw.
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 01:11:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
Oh wait...she was hired? I thought this was a volunteer instructor giving free classes? Maybe I misunderstood.
The article doesn't go into detail but it she new teacher uses the word "hired".
She could be using the word "hired" pretty loosely, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that the instructor gets paid by the Center, while the classes are free to the students. If this was more like a club, with free membership and a volunteer instructor, I'm not sure the student government could shut it down without presenting just cause. Ending something the university is paying for would look just like the case we saw.
Just to clarify - this wasn't the university, but rather the Students Association. Which perhaps explains the whole story.
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 01:25:13 PM
Just to clarify - this wasn't the university, but rather the Students Association. Which perhaps explains the whole story.
Isn't the Student Federation an official organ of the university? It is at the universities I attended. If it isn't, how does it get the money for things like the Centre for Students with Disabilities?
And the Student Federation approach Scharf about teaching the course, which makes it likelier that she was paid (you don't approach someone to ask them to volunteer, typically) and also makes it more bizarre that the Student Federation should conclude that she isn't qualified to teach the course.
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 01:25:13 PM
Just to clarify - this wasn't the university, but rather the Students Association. Which perhaps explains the whole story.
Isn't the Student Federation an official organ of the university? It is at the universities I attended. If it isn't, how does it get the money for things like the Centre for Students with Disabilities?
And the Student Federation approach Scharf about teaching the course, which makes it likelier that she was paid (you don't approach someone to ask them to volunteer, typically) and also makes it more bizarre that the Student Federation should conclude that she isn't qualified to teach the course.
Official organ? No. It's an independent organization, although obviously it has numerous ties and connections to the university itself.
How do they get money? There is an agreement with the university where the university will collect X dollars as part of tuition as student fees, and then hand that money over to the students association. I believe that unless there is gross malfeasance or theft the students association is on its own on how they spend that money, and is accountable to its membership, not the university administration.
I was the law school rep at the U of Manitoba Students Union, and being a law sstudent amongst a bunch of undergrads I was quickly the chairperson and head of the finance committee. We never heard a whisper from administration.
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 01:58:54 PM
Official organ? No. It's an independent organization, although obviously it has numerous ties and connections to the university itself.
How do they get money? There is an agreement with the university where the university will collect X dollars as part of tuition as student fees, and then hand that money over to the students association. I believe that unless there is gross malfeasance or theft the students association is on its own on how they spend that money, and is accountable to its membership, not the university administration.
Really? So how do completely independent organizations get the university to collect money on their behalf? I'd bet that, legally, if the university is collecting money on their behalf, they are part of the university. Otherwise, every company and university would sever their money-collection from their money-distribution organizations so as to sever liability.
QuoteI was the law school rep at the U of Manitoba Students Union, and being a law sstudent amongst a bunch of undergrads I was quickly the chairperson and head of the finance committee. We never heard a whisper from administration.
My roommate was the treasurer of the University of Michigan Students' Association and he had strict guidelines from the university on what he could and couldn't spend university-provided money on. I'm astonished that U of Manitoba provided no such regulations.
I'm astonished that this isn't yogurt.
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 04:07:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 01:58:54 PM
Official organ? No. It's an independent organization, although obviously it has numerous ties and connections to the university itself.
How do they get money? There is an agreement with the university where the university will collect X dollars as part of tuition as student fees, and then hand that money over to the students association. I believe that unless there is gross malfeasance or theft the students association is on its own on how they spend that money, and is accountable to its membership, not the university administration.
Really? So how do completely independent organizations get the university to collect money on their behalf? I'd bet that, legally, if the university is collecting money on their behalf, they are part of the university. Otherwise, every company and university would sever their money-collection from their money-distribution organizations so as to sever liability.
QuoteI was the law school rep at the U of Manitoba Students Union, and being a law sstudent amongst a bunch of undergrads I was quickly the chairperson and head of the finance committee. We never heard a whisper from administration.
My roommate was the treasurer of the University of Michigan Students' Association and he had strict guidelines from the university on what he could and couldn't spend university-provided money on. I'm astonished that U of Manitoba provided no such regulations.
Yes. Fully independent. I'm speaking about Manitoba because that's what I was most familiar with, but I believe it's similar across Canada.
The Students Union was created by a special act of the legislature - the University of Manitoba Students Union Act, RSM 1990, c. 203. That makes it a distinct legal entity.
Obviously there is an ongoing relationship between the university and the students association, both in terms of the university collecting fees on behalf of the students, but also the students use of university space. If you drill down there were likely some contract between the two which set certain limits on what the association could do, but in my experience it was never, ever an issue. We certainly didn't have "strict guidelines from the university".
Perhaps it's just one of those things that is different across the border. But since the University of Ottawa is in Canada, I think it is therefore useful to point out that this was the actions of the Students Association, and not the University itself.
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 04:25:50 PM
Yes. Fully independent. I'm speaking about Manitoba because that's what I was most familiar with, but I believe it's similar across Canada.
The Students Union was created by a special act of the legislature - the University of Manitoba Students Union Act, RSM 1990, c. 203. That makes it a distinct legal entity.
Now
that is interesting. The UoMSU is a corporation! And this is true of all student unions in Canada?
QuoteObviously there is an ongoing relationship between the university and the students association, both in terms of the university collecting fees on behalf of the students, but also the students use of university space. If you drill down there were likely some contract between the two which set certain limits on what the association could do, but in my experience it was never, ever an issue. We certainly didn't have "strict guidelines from the university".
Perhaps it's just one of those things that is different across the border. But since the University of Ottawa is in Canada, I think it is therefore useful to point out that this was the actions of the Students Association, and not the University itself.
Does Manitoba have a student government at all, or are student government needs deemed to be met through the corporation?
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2016, 04:25:50 PM
Yes. Fully independent. I'm speaking about Manitoba because that's what I was most familiar with, but I believe it's similar across Canada.
The Students Union was created by a special act of the legislature - the University of Manitoba Students Union Act, RSM 1990, c. 203. That makes it a distinct legal entity.
Now that is interesting. The UoMSU is a corporation! And this is true of all student unions in Canada?
QuoteObviously there is an ongoing relationship between the university and the students association, both in terms of the university collecting fees on behalf of the students, but also the students use of university space. If you drill down there were likely some contract between the two which set certain limits on what the association could do, but in my experience it was never, ever an issue. We certainly didn't have "strict guidelines from the university".
Perhaps it's just one of those things that is different across the border. But since the University of Ottawa is in Canada, I think it is therefore useful to point out that this was the actions of the Students Association, and not the University itself.
Does Manitoba have a student government at all, or are student government needs deemed to be met through the corporation?
Just checking - the University of Ottawa Student Federation is a corporation under the Corporations Act of Ontario. According to wiki at least, which is good enough for me. (because UMSU is a special act corporation, I was able to pull that act up directly).
Across Canada you see these organized styled as Student Associations, Student Unions, or Student Federations, but they could just as easily be called Student Governments as well. They have Presidents and representative counsels. They're typically in charge of some retail facilities, organizing student groups and certain spaces set aside for students, putting on student functions.
Quote from: The Brain on January 27, 2016, 04:09:09 PM
I'm astonished that this isn't yogurt.
We should stop eating corn, as it was culturally appropriated from Native Americans.
I've been also hearing rumors that a few Hollywood actors have been hiring non-Jewish agents. Cultural appropriation right there.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 27, 2016, 07:30:53 PM
I've been also hearing rumors that a few Hollywood actors have been hiring non-Jewish agents. Cultural appropriation right there.
Not if the non-Jewish agents are honest. Then, there's no overlap.
Quote from: grumbler on January 27, 2016, 01:04:20 PMMore assumptions. You have no idea how "culturally Indian" (whatever that means) the new instructor is, nor how many "culturally Indian" points the university required the new teacher to have to be able to pass the "culturally Indian" litmus test... if being "culturally Indian" was even a factor (which no one says it was). The new teacher has the right skin color and name to satisfy the racist litmus test, so she's in.
And this is a public university doing this? They really should know better.
"more assumptions" doesn't work for you. my discussion in the past page started because you and valmy were making the assumption that the replacement was hired solely because of her skin color. I raised the possibility that she wasn't chosen solely because of her skin color. i.e., I was calling you out for making an assumption on flimsy evidence. if you read the posts, you should be able to see this...
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:08:11 AM
you're assuming she was chosen simply because of her looks. why couldn't she have been chosen because (1) her looks, and (2) she's culturally indian?
It's a natural inference, given that the haole instructor was shitcanned because of her ethnicity.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2016, 10:05:19 PMIt's a natural inference, given that the haole instructor was shitcanned because of her ethnicity.
disagree. the two incidences are different. the first incident is a knee-jerk reaction to a complaint. the second incident (replacement hire) isn't a knee-jerk reaction.
besides, this all started because grumbler said "she's not culturally indian - she's only been to india once and was never born there." the cultural indians I know have either never been to india or been there once or maybe twice. also, @malthus, the cultural indians I know consider themselves canadian/american. the point is, you can very easily be culturally X yet never been born there or visited there
now, if there was evidence that spoke to her actual
culture, and that evidence showed she wasn't culturally indian... then yes, I'd say "damn, university fucked up twice in a row."
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 10:16:33 PM
disagree. the two incidences are different. the first incident is a knee-jerk reaction to a complaint. the second incident (replacement hire) isn't a knee-jerk reaction.
The first was a knee-jerk reaction to somebody's race. The second is...part of that same knee-jerk reaction.
Quotebesides, this all started because grumbler said "she's not culturally indian - she's only been to india once and was never born there."
Bullshit. We were talking about this for awhile before grumbler said anything. And anyway she herself admitted she was not going to teach the class any different so...
Quotemalthus, the cultural indians I know consider themselves canadian/american. the point is, you can very easily be culturally X yet never been born there or visited there
How is that the point? What exactly are we arguing about?
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 10:21:30 PMBullshit. We were talking about this for awhile before grumbler said anything. And anyway she herself admitted she was not going to teach the class any different so...
How is that the point? What exactly are we arguing about?
referring to this
Quote from: grumblerThe new teacher isn't Indian herself. She was born in Canada, and has only even visited India once. She also apparently has no qualifications other than her perceived "race" and the fact that some people in her family practice yoga.
I was arguing that maybe there's more here than what was stated in that article -- maybe the replacement is both racially indian and culturally indian, despite being born in canada and considering herself canadian.
Sure, maybe she has a 7th degree black belt in yoga and she just happened to be sitting by her phone.
do you know racial indians who are culturally indian but were born in either canada or the US? maybe I have a different perspective because some of the only indians I've ever met meet that qualification. not including the indian families I saw when I lived in california for a few months awhile back.
Come to think of it, a friend of mine did tell me about an Indian who date raped her. Not sure if he immigrated though.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 09:54:42 PM
"more assumptions" doesn't work for you. my discussion in the past page started because you and valmy were making the assumption that the replacement was hired solely because of her skin color. I raised the possibility that she wasn't chosen solely because of her skin color. i.e., I was calling you out for making an assumption on flimsy evidence. if you read the posts, you should be able to see this...
I make conclusions based on evidence, which I present. You draw conclusions based on assumptions which you don't even make explicit. There's a vast difference between those two approaches.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 10:16:33 PM
besides, this all started because grumbler said "she's not culturally indian - she's only been to india once and was never born there."
When quoting someone, it is a whole lot more honest to quote what they actually said, not what you wish they'd said. I certainly didn't make any arguments about people being "culturally Indian," because I think that's a phrase which is mere noise, signifying nothing specific at all.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
...maybe the replacement is both racially indian and culturally indian..,
And what exactly is "racially Indian?" Is there even a "race" called "Indian?" Indians are pretty ethnically and genetically diverse. Are Pakistanis and Bengalis "racially Indian" or did the drawing of the border transform their race as well?
Quote from: grumbler on January 28, 2016, 06:13:03 AMI make conclusions based on evidence, which I present. You draw conclusions based on assumptions which you don't even make explicit. There's a vast difference between those two approaches.
we're both relying on the same evidence :lol: that's my whole point. your conclusion and the possible conclusion I raised differ based on the same evidence. my whole point has been that your conclusion might not be true because there's another possibility that existed. jesus :D
QuoteWhen quoting someone, it is a whole lot more honest to quote what they actually said, not what you wish they'd said.
yeah, I did that. just a few posts ago. you ignored that post :P
QuoteAnd what exactly is "racially Indian?" Is there even a "race" called "Indian?"
I dunno, I'm a freakin' north dakotan. isn't "indian" a race you can check off on some lists? (indian-indian, not injun)
I think grumbler's taken the position in the past that races don't really exist.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 28, 2016, 12:20:50 PM
I think grumbler's taken the position in the past that races don't really exist.
I don't think that's the case, because it's inconsistent with his earlier post
Quote from: grumblerThe new teacher isn't Indian herself. She was born in Canada, and has only even visited India once. She also apparently has no qualifications other than her perceived "race" and the fact that some people in her family practice yoga.
Quote from: grumblerI certainly didn't make any arguments about people being "culturally Indian," because I think that's a phrase which is mere noise, signifying nothing specific at all.
Quote from: grumblerAnd what exactly is "racially Indian?" Is there even a "race" called "Indian?"
so, we first start with "the new teacher isn't indian herself." what does "indian" refer to here? the next two posts seem to say grumbler wasn't referring to culture OR race. so I guess I'm left to ask: wtf does grumbler think an indian is
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 11:32:57 PM
do you know racial indians who are culturally indian but were born in either canada or the US? maybe I have a different perspective because some of the only indians I've ever met meet that qualification. not including the indian families I saw when I lived in california for a few months awhile back.
Ok? Where is your evidence she is one of those types? She seems to have stated explicitly she is not.
Quote from: Valmy on January 28, 2016, 12:32:33 PMOk? Where is your evidence she is one of those types? She seems to have stated explicitly she is not.
I don't know whether she is. I'm not the one attacking the university for making a hiring decision based solely on skin color (which assumes the university made a hiring decision based solely on skin color, which implies the university didn't take other things into consideration).
how has she "stated explicitly she is not [culturally indian]"? if she has said this, then this is new evidence I haven't seen.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 12:34:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 28, 2016, 12:32:33 PMOk? Where is your evidence she is one of those types? She seems to have stated explicitly she is not.
I don't know whether she is. I'm not the one attacking the university for making a hiring decision based solely on skin color (which assumes the university made a hiring decision based solely on skin color, which implies the university didn't take other things into consideration).
how has she "stated explicitly she is not [culturally indian]"? if she has said this, then this is new evidence I haven't seen.
She said she was a Canadian of Indian background.
And she said they did not ask her if she was going to teach the class any different and did not plan on doing so. So what exactly did they fire the previous instructor for? Hmmmm....
Quote from: Valmy on January 28, 2016, 12:38:16 PMShe said she was a Canadian of Indian background.
And she said they did not ask her if she was going to teach the class any different and did not plan on doing so. So what exactly did they fire the previous instructor for? Hmmmm....
(1) "canadian of indian background" has nothing to do with how culturally indian someone is. for example, I know someone who would say, "I'm canadian of indian background." this person got arranged marriaged and does all the other indian stuff, including that painted hand thing they do. I also know an american indian-indian who's the same way. very culturally indian but identifies as an american and has never been to india.
(2) maybe the white chick did yoga the right way and there wasn't anything to complain about, and she got canned because the university made a stupid decision. we're not taking about that first incident, remember? you're focusing on that again.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 11:57:32 AM
we're both relying on the same evidence :lol: that's my whole point. your conclusion and the possible conclusion I raised differ based on the same evidence. my whole point has been that your conclusion might not be true because there's another possibility that existed. jesus :D
No, we are not. :lol: That's my whole point. My conclusion is based on the actual evidence (like the fact that the new teacher, when discussing her experience, mentioned that some members of her family practiced yoga, but didn't even observe that she practiced it herself) while yours is based on assumptions (like the assertion that the new teacher is "culturally Indian" and the one that being "culturally Indian" is somehow significant. The difference between my evidence and your assertions is that my evidence comes from the story, and your assertions come from your ass. :lol:
QuoteQuoteWhen quoting someone, it is a whole lot more honest to quote what they actually said, not what you wish they'd said.
yeah, I did that. just a few posts ago. you ignored that post :P
And you lied when you quoted me as saying that "she's not culturally indian."
That's just an observation. I fully expect some people here lie when they think it advances their argument. :P
QuoteI dunno, I'm a freakin' north dakotan. isn't "indian" a race you can check off on some lists? (indian-indian, not injun)
I dunno. You are the one making an issue of it. If you don't even know what it means, it's probably best that you not use it.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 12:42:13 PM
(1) "canadian of indian background" has nothing to do with how culturally indian someone is. for example, I know someone who would say, "I'm canadian of indian background." this person got arranged marriaged and does all the other indian stuff, including that painted hand thing they do. I also know an american indian-indian who's the same way. very culturally indian but identifies as an american and has never been to india.
That makes no sense in the context of the quote. It sure seemed like she was distancing herself from being some kind of Indian cultural ambassador. She could have easily said 'me and my family are very Indian and I look forward to transmitting this important piece of our culture.' Instead she hedged and said that she is of Indian background but she really considers herself a Canadian.
Quote(2) maybe the white chick did yoga the right way and there wasn't anything to complain about, and she got canned because the university made a stupid decision. we're not taking about that first incident, remember? you're focusing on that again.
Of course I am doing that again. I never agreed to your condition that they are somehow separate incidents. I completely disagree with this assertion.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 12:32:20 PM
so, we first start with "the new teacher isn't indian herself." what does "indian" refer to here? the next two posts seem to say grumbler wasn't referring to culture OR race. so I guess I'm left to ask: wtf does grumbler think an indian is
"Indian" refers to a person from India. I thought that that was self-evident. It is at least as self-evident as "North Dakotan" in the phrase "I'm a freakin' north dakotan."
Quote from: Valmy on January 28, 2016, 12:38:16 PM
She said she was a Canadian of Indian background.
And she said they did not ask her if she was going to teach the class any different and did not plan on doing so. So what exactly did they fire the previous instructor for? Hmmmm....
That smell you smell is racism.
Quote from: grumbler on January 28, 2016, 12:58:23 PMNo, we are not. :lol: That's my whole point. My conclusion is based on the actual evidence (like the fact that the new teacher, when discussing her experience, mentioned that some members of her family practiced yoga, but didn't even observe that she practiced it herself) while yours is based on assumptions (like the assertion that the new teacher is "culturally Indian" and the one that being "culturally Indian" is somehow significant. The difference between my evidence and your assertions is that my evidence comes from the story, and your assertions come from your ass. :lol:
And you lied when you quoted me as saying that "she's not culturally indian."
That's just an observation. I fully expect some people here lie when they think it advances their argument. :P
I dunno. You are the one making an issue of it. If you don't even know what it means, it's probably best that you not use it.
your assumption based on the evidence, yeah
lie requires intent. you're assuming I intentionally misconstrued what you said to make a point... for some reason
my "issue" was pointing out that the replacement could be culturally indian
Quote"Indian" refers to a person from India. I thought that that was self-evident. It is at least as self-evident as "North Dakotan" in the phrase "I'm a freakin' north dakotan."
yup. a canadian is someone from canada. a canadian who is culturally indian is a canadian who is culturally indian. whether the replacement fits this category... well, we don't know because we have insufficient evidence. sometimes, articles don't tell the whole story. you know this.
Quote from: grumblerThat smell you smell is racism.
:hmm:
I don't know what you're trying to say Lacroix. I think you're overthinking this.
The story really is quite simple. The Students Federation said why they were cancelling the first yoga class - a white girl teaching yoga is "cultural appropriation". According to them, yoga can only be taught by someone of the right cultural heritage. So they found an Indian-Canadian instead.
Quote from: Barrister on January 28, 2016, 04:44:02 PM
I don't know what you're trying to say Lacroix. I think you're overthinking this.
The story really is quite simple. The Students Federation said why they were cancelling the first yoga class - a white girl teaching yoga is "cultural appropriation". According to them, yoga can only be taught by someone of the right cultural heritage. So they found an Indian-Canadian instead.
there was criticism re: the indian-canadian, that the university selected this person solely based on race/skin-color. all I've been trying to say is that this replacement might actually be a little more indian than some people itt think. she might not be, too, but there's just not enough evidence either way.
Is it an ethnic Hindu?
Quote from: The Brain on January 28, 2016, 05:27:19 PM
Is it an ethnic Hindu?
if it turns out she's jewish, then I won't know what to think
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 04:40:35 PM
your assumption based on the evidence, yeah
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.images.memegenerator.net%2FInstance%2FPreview%3FimageID%3D5754965%26amp%3BgeneratorTypeID%3D%26amp%3Bpanels%3D%26amp%3Btext0%3D%2522Assumption%2522%26amp%3Btext1%3D%2520%2520You%2520keep%2520using%2520that%2520word%2C%2520I%2520don%2527t%2520think%2520it%2520means%2520what%2520you%2520think%2520it%2520means%26amp%3Btext2%3D%26amp%3Btext3%3D&hash=35a2f29970d1e6c0af6564a3d2be5cdc6cf98996)
Quotelie requires intent. you're assuming I intentionally misconstrued what you said to make a point... for some reason
So you concede that you lied, but argue that somehow it's not a lie because you were just incompetent in your quote attributions? Okay. I'm not sure how that helps your case, or who you have us believe you were really quoting, but whatever.
Quotemy "issue" was pointing out that the replacement could be culturally indian
I have no idea what "culturally Indian" means. India has many cultures. Your term makes no sense in light of the facts.
Quoteyup. a canadian is someone from canada. a canadian who is culturally indian is a canadian who is culturally indian. whether the replacement fits this category... well, we don't know because we have insufficient evidence. sometimes, articles don't tell the whole story. you know this.
Again with the made-up terms. You can't define "cultural Indian" as "a person who is culturally Indian" - it's a completely circular argument. I suspect the reason why you don't know if this person is "culturally Indian" isn't because the story doesn't tell us how "culturally Indian" she is, but because the concept of "culturally Indian" is self-identifying at best. The new teacher doesn't seem hung up on cultural anything, so she's not talking about cultural anything. She's just talking about teaching the course, and wondering if she was hired for racist reasons (which it certainly seems she was).
Quote from: grumbler on January 28, 2016, 06:08:16 PMSo you concede that you lied, but argue that somehow it's not a lie because you were just incompetent in your quote attributions?
does a lie require intent to lie, yes/no?
I didn't concede I misconstrued your post. I implied you thought I misconstrued your post. I don't think I misconstrued your post, but if you'd like to explain what you originally meant...
(edit) I asked an indian classmate today (one born in india who is also culturally indian) whether her husband would identify himself as an "american who is culturally indian." she said yes. so, I think your hangup on this point is divorced from reality
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 05:25:58 PM
there was criticism re: the indian-canadian, that the university selected this person solely based on race/skin-color. all I've been trying to say is that this replacement might actually be a little more indian than some people itt think. she might not be, too, but there's just not enough evidence either way.
What would be sufficient evidence? I mean if we cannot use what seem to be pretty damning quotes from the new hiree.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 05:29:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 28, 2016, 05:27:19 PM
Is it an ethnic Hindu?
if it turns out she's jewish, then I won't know what to think
Judaism has been in India for thousands of years. Just saying.
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2016, 10:36:19 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on January 28, 2016, 05:29:28 PM
if it turns out she's jewish, then I won't know what to think
Judaism has been in India for thousands of years. Just saying.
Indeed. Mohandas Gandhi said he was Jewish (also Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, etc).
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2016, 10:33:50 AMWhat would be sufficient evidence? I mean if we cannot use what seem to be pretty damning quotes from the new hiree.
probably something a little more than a few quotes :P
people are different and say different things. some people might go on and on about their cultural background, and others might feel uncomfortable. a few quotes isn't enough for me to tell either way on this particular point. if you disagree, OK, then we just disagree
Quote from: LaCroix on January 29, 2016, 12:59:43 PM
probably something a little more than a few quotes :P
people are different and say different things. some people might go on and on about their cultural background, and others might feel uncomfortable. a few quotes isn't enough for me to tell either way on this particular point. if you disagree, OK, then we just disagree
What a bullshit cop out. How could you possibly get more evidence on this topic besides people's opinions? It is impossible without some sort of anthropological study.
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2016, 01:48:39 PM
What a bullshit cop out. How could you possibly get more evidence on this topic besides people's opinions? It is impossible without some sort of anthropological study.
Let it go. Unless you can "prove" him wrong, LaCroix is going to insist his assumptions are true, evidence to the contrary be damned.
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2016, 01:48:39 PMWhat a bullshit cop out. How could you possibly get more evidence on this topic besides people's opinions? It is impossible without some sort of anthropological study.
picking apart the way someone says something to some journalist, using a magnifying glass to interpret their words to support your assumption... you should go to law school. :P
Quote from: grumblerLet it go. Unless you can "prove" him wrong, LaCroix is going to insist his assumptions are true, evidence to the contrary be damned.
I have no assumptions, aside from "who knows what she is." I've merely been attacking your assumption, that she must be X. ;)