Back from Mexico, a trip AAR by request from BB ...
It was awesome. Truly a great experience, especially for Carl - now that he's 9, he's likely to remember it. :)
We did a ton of stuff, travelled around a lot - too much for a single post. Basically, we went to Mexico City, then to Chiapas province (mostly to visit Mayan ruins - some right on the border with Guatemala), and finally ended up with a few expensive days on the "Mayan Riviera" in Playa del Carmen for some beach stuff.
Further posts to follow.
Mexico City
We started by flying in to Mexico City, which has truly terrible traffic - even by Toronto standards :D .
We only had a couple of days there, so we made the most of it - saw the Anthropology Museum (which is stunning - I could have spent a couple of days there), then saw the Tempalo Mayor - the remains of the Aztec temples that the Spaniards knocked down - worth seeing as well, and the onsite museum is great (those Aztecs truly were a wacky bunch). A must-see was a statue of the Aztec god of death - a grotesque figure with a bloated smiling face and his liver hanging out of his skeletal chest, he's in a pose like he's about to grab passersby in his talons.
Near there is the cathedral, which had a little tour for like 20 pesos that took you up the bell tower - we went on it, thinking nothing much of it - but it was really an amazing experience (though alas the guide spoke no English). Not for the agrophobic! The guide took us up to see the bell tower, which was cool, but then the took us out across the domed roof of the cathedral, hundreds of feet above the ground ... across to the other bell tower. The view was awesome, but terrifying.
The hotel we were staying at was very luxurious and not too expensive, but I noticed something I did not mention to my wife (who made the booking) - it appears most of the other guests there were wealthy Mexican fellows and their "negotiable affection". ;) Extremely high-class "negotiable affection" I may add. In short, all the dudes were elderly, wealthy men and all the ladies were stunningly beautiful and in their early 20s ...
Anyway, there is tons to see in Mexico City, we barely scratched the surface. After a couple of days, we flew out of Mexico City to Ciapas, directly to a small and very new airport in Palenque itself.
Pics. :contract:
Cool stuff so far. :)
Is Mexico dangerous?
Quote from: Barrister on March 20, 2015, 11:38:19 AM
Pics. :contract:
Pics will come ... have to download the camera first.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 20, 2015, 12:02:51 PM
Is Mexico dangerous?
Depends very much on where you are and what you are doing.
The main dangers in Mexico are: (1) the usual criminality you always get in third-world touristy areas - scams, pick-pockets, and the occasional muggings and hijackings; (2) the ongoing drug-gang wars, which you may have read about, which are truly terrible - mass beheadings, burning people alive, etc.; and (3) diseases.
The first problem you can minimize by simply taking the usual precautions - keep valuables well secured and distributed, keep out of lonely places, don't get drunk in public, etc.
The second problem is localized in certain areas - like right up against the US border: so stay out. Also, the drug-gangs don't attack pure tourists very often. If you are buying drugs, or get caught up in criminal stuff with them - well, that's a different story. ;) Seriously not advisable.
The third problem you deal with by eating and drinking sensibly, ensuring you have your vaccinations up-to-date (particularly hep A and B), and reading health warnings in advance; Chiapas has Malaria, so we took anti-Malarial pills.
You were gone? :unsure: Well, glad it was fun. :D.
Chiapas
Chiapas is a very different world from Mexico City - might as well be in a different country. For one, the people look different - much more Maya. For another, the countryside looks different - you are now in hardcore jungle: Mexico City looks more like it could be Texas.
One thing you have to get used to, is the Howler Monkies. The term "Howler" does not do them justice - those fuckers sound seriously frightening, more like the bark-roar of something LARGE comming to tear your living guts out. Imagine Bigfoot with his dick caught in a mangle. ;) It is hard to imagine that level of sound comming from an animal less than 3 feet long.
Anyway, greeted by this sound, we pushed on to our hotel (once again, a fairly luxurious accomodation - no more backpacking hostels for me! Not with wife and kid in tow). The main Mayan site is also simply called "Palenque" after the nearby town, though obviously this was not its original name - which was something like "Bone".
Palenque was the first highland Classic-era Mayan site I'd ever seen (I'd previously been to the lowland sites in Yucatán, like Chichen Itza and Uxmal), and it is AWESOME. Full descriptions will have to wait until I download picks, but suffice it to say that this site does not dissapoint the visitor.
First, there is the famous "Temple of the Inscriptions", named for a long hierogliphic text detailing the history of Pacal the Great's life and achievements; sadly, you can't climb this one (one of the few ruins you are not alowed to clamber about on). This was the temple in which the tomb of Pacal the Great was found - the "King Tut" find of the Maya - in a fancy inscribed stone coffin of enormous size - you can see it in the site museum, in the only room that has air-conditioning ( :) ) but most of the rich burial artifacts are in the Museum in Mexico City (like his massive jade mask). Next to it is the Temple of the Red Queen, which also has a burial - probably that of Pacal's wife. You can climb that one and even go into her tomb - though again, the artifacts are in Mexico City.
More later ...
Did you hang with my boy Subcomandante Marcos while you were there?
Quote from: Caliga on March 20, 2015, 01:18:08 PM
Did you hang with my boy Subcomandante Marcos while you were there?
Was he one of the guys hawking cheap tourist junk made in China? :hmm:
He's some communist dude, so probably.
Chiapas, Palenque, Con't.
After the "Temple of the Inscriptions", there is the Palace - a very elaborate structure, with (unusually) a fairly high stone tower of unknown purpose built into it. The most beautiful sculptures are found in the "court of the captives", which feature relief sculpures of a very high artistic quality by some Mayan Michaelangelo, allegedly depicting high-ranking captives each with his hand on his shoulder (apparently a gesture of submission). I was really struck by the sheer artistic quality of these images - many of the Mayan works of art are simply very complex (the Mayas just loved depicting elaborate headgear, like Ladies at Ascot gone insane), but these showed a delicacy of expression and gesture that is rare in any art. I attempted a couple of sketches there, but I'm rusty - I don't think I really caught it.
I did rather better at the "Pyramid of the Skull", which features a bizzare rabbit-skull relief, complete with bunny ears (and earrings). No idea what this was about, but it made for a fine sketching opportunity. As an aside, I highly recommend sketching as an occupation at such sites if you have the time: it doesn't really matter if you have any talent or if the results are any good (though that is a nice bonus), it is a good way to really see these objects: in the bright sun, and with the usual tourist hustling from one place to another, actually taking in the detail of Mayan sculpture (which, as noted, is often very complex) can be extremely hard, otherwise. Also, low relief can be very hard to photograph.
Anyway, after the Palace one crosses a Mayan acqueduct (still working!) and through a short jungley path (ignoring the Howler Monkeys barking up a storm) to the "Temple of the Cross" group. This is a series of very high Mayan pyramid-temples with some very complex relief panels in the small temples on top - as I said to Carl, the reward for climbing all those steps is to see the panels. ;) The "cross" referred to isn't the Christian cross, but the depiction of the Mayan symbol for the four cardinal directions - which looks very much like it.
The most odd panel lies atop the very highest of these pyramids: it depicts two persons facing each other, the one on the left looking like a typical Mayan lord, the one on the right like an elderly hippie smoking a huge joint. Seriously, it is an elderly chief (or diety) smoking a big cigar of some sort, the fumes streaming around him, a sort of Mayan Marlboro Man. :P
There is an interesting story associated with this panel. One of the early non-Mayan explorers of the site was an American named John Lloyd Stephens, who showed up with his artist friend Catherwood. He stayed at Palenque to make a series of explorations and drawings (well worth checking out in his Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán, Vol. 2). When he arrived, the panel had already been dislodged from its place and re-installed in a house in the nearby town, owned by two sisters. He decided he wanted to buy it - only problem, the sisters would not sell, unless he bought the house itself. However, there was a catch: to own land in Mexico at the time, you had to either be Mexican, or be married to a Mexican ... so Stephens apparently considered marrying one of the sisters, which caused some trouble, as there were two sisters ... anyway, the whole mess came to nothing, and the panel is back on the pyramid and not, as Stephens intended, in New York. :lol:
Pics pls. :)
I think this thread of yours makes a good 'antidote' to the vandalism going on in Iraq/Syria.
Malthus, have you been to Teotihuacan? If so--even if not on this trip--I'd be interested in your thoughts in comparison to the other temples you've seen in Mesoamerica (mainly because the Mexico City area temples are the only points of reference I have).
I agree about the Museum of Anthropology--I think it is one of the great museums of the world. Which was a surprise to me because I found Mexico City to be a horrible place (I used to have to go there for work). Some really good attractions for history nerds though.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 20, 2015, 02:44:32 PM
Malthus, have you been to Teotihuacan? If so--even if not on this trip--I'd be interested in your thoughts in comparison to the other temples you've seen in Mesoamerica (mainly because the Mexico City area temples are the only points of reference I have).
I agree about the Museum of Anthropology--I think it is one of the great museums of the world. Which was a surprise to me because I found Mexico City to be a horrible place (I used to have to go there for work). Some really good attractions for history nerds though.
Sadly, I did not. If I had another day in Mexico City, I would have. It is supposed to be an amazing site, and allegedly not too hard to get to on the subway line. Though I heard it was usually covered in thousands of Mexican tourists.
I was pretty reluctant to go to Mexico City at all, fearing the horrible traffic, pollution and crowds - but it was necessary to stop over to get to Palenque. Figured might as well have some fun there. The traffic was, indeed, horrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPW48Y8mHUw :P
Sounds like a great trip. The Mayan sites are high on my "things to see before I die" list.
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2015, 02:56:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPW48Y8mHUw :P
Sounds like a great trip. The Mayan sites are high on my "things to see before I die" list.
Did anyone mention that the Mayans used to sacrifice the losers of their ball-games? :D
Any crystal skulls? :area52:
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 03:06:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 20, 2015, 02:56:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPW48Y8mHUw :P
Sounds like a great trip. The Mayan sites are high on my "things to see before I die" list.
Did anyone mention that the Mayans used to sacrifice the losers of their ball-games? :D
IIRC they also used a very heavy rubber ball that ideally wasn't played with hands and could shatter bones if fast enough.
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 20, 2015, 03:08:36 PM
Any crystal skulls? :area52:
Actually, yes - little tiny ones in the Mexico museum. Though my favorite were the earrings which had a skull on them - and the skull was depicted as wearing earings of the exact same shape! :lol: Modern fashion designers, take note.
Oh yeah, I forgot - one of the odder experiences in Mexico City itself was while trying to find a short-cut to a restaurant we could see, but not easily get to, from the Tempalo Mayor. We ended up going through a sort of shopping mall of religious trinkets for Mexicans - doing a truly roaring business in stuff like votive candles, big statues of Jesus and the pope, etc. plus some more, um, "traditional" religious stuff - odd herbs and wierd little devil-charms. What was amazing about this place was that it wasn't one store, but literally hundreds of them, on six levels - we were the only non-Mexicans there.
Tempalo? Or Templo?
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 20, 2015, 03:08:36 PM
Any crystal skulls? :area52:
Actually, yes - little tiny ones in the Mexico museum. Though my favorite were the earrings which had a skull on them - and the skull was depicted as wearing earings of the exact same shape! :lol: Modern fashion designers, take note.
What kind of skulls have ears?
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 20, 2015, 03:29:16 PM
Tempalo? Or Templo?
Templo. Evidently, my spelling in Spanish is just as good as that in English. :D
Quote from: Maximus on March 20, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 20, 2015, 03:08:36 PM
Any crystal skulls? :area52:
Actually, yes - little tiny ones in the Mexico museum. Though my favorite were the earrings which had a skull on them - and the skull was depicted as wearing earings of the exact same shape! :lol: Modern fashion designers, take note.
What kind of skulls have ears?
Fashionable ones, evidently. :D
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 02:49:47 PM
It is supposed to be an amazing site, and allegedly not too hard to get to on the subway line. Though I heard it was usually covered in thousands of Mexican tourists.
I can't say how hard it is to get to by subway, but I'd never do that. It is well outside of the city.
I know I've posted this before, but visiting that site was a perspective changing experience for me. My father is a history buff. Growing up we went to a fort used in the indian wars, with a tour by a state ranger. The ranger put an emphasis on how primitive precolumbian societies were, and a couple in the tour group flipped out saying that calling them primitive was misleading propaganda. They were asked to leave the tour, and the guide assured us they were cranks, as did my father later on. it was explained to me that precolumbians didn't even have the wheel, and only very limited use of writing. Media and recent academics often presented them as more advanced because of PC multiculturalism, but that wasn't factual.
So when I went to Mexico City, I had limited interest in seeing the pyramids, as I figured they were the output of a very basic society. My taxi driver convinced me to check them out the pyramids on a free weekend. I had low expectations, which were dramatically exceeded, to say the least.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 20, 2015, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 02:49:47 PM
It is supposed to be an amazing site, and allegedly not too hard to get to on the subway line. Though I heard it was usually covered in thousands of Mexican tourists.
I can't say how hard it is to get to by subway, but I'd never do that. It is well outside of the city.
Apparently, you can take a bus straight there from one of the subway stations - though I have no idea how hard it would be, or how long.
QuoteI know I've posted this before, but visiting that site was a perspective changing experience for me. My father is a history buff. Growing up we went to a fort used in the indian wars, with a tour by a state ranger. The ranger put an emphasis on how primitive precolumbian societies were, and a couple in the tour group flipped out saying that calling them primitive was misleading propaganda. They were asked to leave the tour, and the guide assured us they were cranks, as did my father later on. it was explained to me that precolumbians didn't even have the wheel, and only very limited use of writing. Media and recent academics often presented them as more advanced because of PC multiculturalism, but that wasn't factual.
So when I went to Mexico City, I had limited interest in seeing the pyramids, as I figured they were the output of a very basic society. My taxi driver convinced me to check them out the pyramids on a free weekend. I had low expectations, which were dramatically exceeded, to say the least.
Advanced the precolumbian natives of mesoamerica certainly were, in terms of building in stone and urban planning. No-one visiting the ruins of their cities could think they were unsophisticated primitives. The Pyramid of the Sun is one of the largest in the world.
Chiapas, Palenque, part 3
Another site is the so-called "Temple of the Mad Count". Apparently, or so the story goes, this pyramid temple got its odd name because one of the early explorers of Palenque lived in this place for two years (!) and claimed he was a "Count" - evidently, the locals thought he was insane to live for two years in a jungle-grown ruin in Palenque, when he could be living in his mansion in Paris.
This man, Frederick Waldeck, was indeed a strange fellow. Apparently, he was a quite compulsive liar and pervert - almost nothing he claimed about himself can be verified, including his alleged title of "Count" (at times he claimed to be a duke or baron). He was notable for two "achievements" in the noble art of bullshitting:
(1) After living in Palenque for two years, he produced a book complete with illustrations that "proved" that the ancient Palenquians were Egyptians. One of his obsessions was with elephants - he saw elephants all over the place in Mayan art (none are there in reality). His fakery had a long after-life: for some eighty years, so-called "diffusionists" were arguing, on the basis of his "research", that the Mayans had immigrated from Egypt or India (those elephants).
(2) He produced a famous and best-selling book of hardcore pornography he claimed was the original of a famous lost Renaissance work, which he alleged to have discovered in a convent near Palenque (!!) [there was no convent anywhere near Palenque].
His death was of a piece with his life: he is alleged to have died, at the age of 109, of a heart attack, caused by excessive leering at a particularly a beautiful woman on the Champs-Élysées. :lol:
Frederick Waldeck is the best part yet of your AAR :lol:
Chiapas, Palenque, last
After the Temple of the Count, we travelled down the path to the site museum - which goes down alongside a series of very nice waterfalls (the water comes from that Aqueduct). By this time, we were so damn hot and sweaty we were willing to dive right in to some pools at the bottom labelled "the Queen's bathing-pools" - a possibility some killjoy had anticipated, and put up "no bathing" signs to prevent. :lol: There is an ancient Mayan building halfway down described as a "sweat lodge". It simply beggars belief that anyone in Palenque, ancient or modern, could possibly want to get *more* hot and sweaty than simply being there makes you - but there it is.
The site museum is worth a visit - some of the better preserved panels are to be found there. What it has, as mentioned above, is a blessedly air-conditioned room with the carved coffin of Pacal the Great - which is enormous and well worth seeing (just standing in the air conditioning is worth the trip!). What it doesn't have, is any food other than a vending machine: if you go, bring your own.
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 20, 2015, 04:48:04 PM
Frederick Waldeck is the best part yet of your AAR :lol:
I was vastly entertained reading up on him. I knew nothing about him, until I saw the name of "his" pyramid; that sparked my curiousity.
Chiapas - day trip out of Palenque - Yaxchilan
While in Palenque, we learned that it was possible to pay for a bus trip to visit two other very significant sites - Yaxchilan and Bonampak. Emphasis on the word "possible". If I had any idea of the length and difficulty of the trip, I may have reconsidered - which would have been a shame, because the sites are well worth the effort.
We paid our price, and woke up at 5 in the AM to be picked up. The guy arrived, with a lovely couple from Slovenia already aboard - the woman was stunningly beautiful, and I mean stunning.
The bus was in bad shape - apparently held together with chewing gum and twine. I realized we may me in for it when the first thing the driver did was stop to buy a large supply of oil - he spent the rest of the trip feeding oil into his machine. Unfortunately, the road was very hilly in parts, causing my wife no end of grief (she hates scary drives) and the engine no end of stress. However, though it had some moments when it sounded like it was expiring, the driver did manage to coax it there and back again - three hours of driving each way.
Yaxchilan is right on the border with Guatemala, which is apparently to Mexico as Mexico is to the US - that is, a source of illegal immigrants and drugs. So the closer we got to Yaxchilan, the thicker the military and police presence became - we passed checkpoint after checkpoint, complete with stone-faced Mexican soldiers with assault rifles and riot shotguns (they stopped us only long enough to leer at the lovely Slovine and my wife - evidently, we did not resemble Guatemalan migrant workers. They did not, however, hit us up for bribes, which I had been fearing).
You can't actually drive to Yaxchilan - it is reachable only by boat, so after the three-hour drive came a 40 minute ride on a local's rented motorboat-canoe on the muddy, massive Usumacinta River (complete with hungry-looking crocodiles and, of course, Howler Monkies). Finally, we arrived at the site ...
Thanks Malthus, I'm enjoying this.
I bet the young'un in future years won't forget much about that road trip. :)
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 04:08:41 PM
No-one visiting the ruins of their cities could think they were unsophisticated primitives.
Did they have flush toilets and AC?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 20, 2015, 06:11:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 04:08:41 PM
No-one visiting the ruins of their cities could think they were unsophisticated primitives.
Did they have flush toilets and AC?
In some places I went, they still don't. :lol:
Quote from: mongers on March 20, 2015, 05:50:19 PM
Thanks Malthus, I'm enjoying this.
I bet the young'un in future years won't forget much about that road trip. :)
That's what I'm hoping anyway ... though he did some complaining about being dragged up yet another Mayan pyramid. ;)
Fun AAR. I like the info you put in there. I've never been to Mexico and have little idea of it. Glad you had a great time! :)
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
The hotel we were staying at was very luxurious and not too expensive, but I noticed something I did not mention to my wife (who made the booking) - it appears most of the other guests there were wealthy Mexican fellows and their "negotiable affection". ;) Extremely high-class "negotiable affection" I may add. In short, all the dudes were elderly, wealthy men and all the ladies were stunningly beautiful and in their early 20s ...
You don't think she noticed?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 20, 2015, 10:01:44 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
The hotel we were staying at was very luxurious and not too expensive, but I noticed something I did not mention to my wife (who made the booking) - it appears most of the other guests there were wealthy Mexican fellows and their "negotiable affection". ;) Extremely high-class "negotiable affection" I may add. In short, all the dudes were elderly, wealthy men and all the ladies were stunningly beautiful and in their early 20s ...
You don't think she noticed?
There are lots of possible explanations. A bad one for Malthus would be that she knew the hotel because she stayed there several times in her early 20s.
I doubt he would hold it against her. Malthus knows what it's like to work your way up from the streets.
Quote from: Maximus on March 20, 2015, 10:40:06 PM
I doubt he would hold it against her. Malthus knows what it's like to work your way up from the streets.
Rough
Quote from: garbon on March 21, 2015, 07:59:06 AM
Quote from: Maximus on March 20, 2015, 10:40:06 PM
I doubt he would hold it against her. Malthus knows what it's like to work your way up from the streets.
Rough
It is The Languish way:
Man down, quick kick him in the nuts. :(
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 20, 2015, 10:01:44 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
The hotel we were staying at was very luxurious and not too expensive, but I noticed something I did not mention to my wife (who made the booking) - it appears most of the other guests there were wealthy Mexican fellows and their "negotiable affection". ;) Extremely high-class "negotiable affection" I may add. In short, all the dudes were elderly, wealthy men and all the ladies were stunningly beautiful and in their early 20s ...
You don't think she noticed?
Maybe she did; the point is, *I* wasn't going to bring up the topic. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on March 21, 2015, 09:05:37 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 20, 2015, 10:01:44 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
The hotel we were staying at was very luxurious and not too expensive, but I noticed something I did not mention to my wife (who made the booking) - it appears most of the other guests there were wealthy Mexican fellows and their "negotiable affection". ;) Extremely high-class "negotiable affection" I may add. In short, all the dudes were elderly, wealthy men and all the ladies were stunningly beautiful and in their early 20s ...
You don't think she noticed?
Maybe she did; the point is, *I* wasn't going to bring up the topic. :lol:
Indeed.
Maybe you should have said, "We'll fit in well here, just look at all the well off, succesful men who bring their young, attractive wives here" ?
In case anyone is still interested ...
Chiapas - day trip out of Palenque - Yaxchilan part 2
I had known about this site for ten years, because the first time I went to Mexico, I bought from a Mayan artist his carving of a copy of a lintel from this place - the original of which was taken from the site and ended up in the British Museum. The lintel depicts a noblewoman of Yaxcilan engaging in a hallucinatory ritual in which she pierced herself with stingray spines, poured her blood onto some paper, and burned the paper in sacrifice. The lintel depicts the moment of burning the paper - the noblewoman in kneeling, holding a bowl with burning paper; the smoke rises up and turns into a serpent; and out of the mouth of the serpent emerges an ancestor-warrior, giving her a prophecy that the reign of the newly-installed king will be glorious. All of which is explained in the hieroglyphs on the lintel (which, for some unknown reason, are written in mirror-image!).
Anyway, I thought the carving I bought was very well done, and I became fascinated by the odd imagery - a few years later, I sought out the original in the British Museum; but I never thought I would actually get to Yaxchilan itself, as it is notoriously remote ... but now, here we were.
The site itself is in the most beautiful location - right in a massive bend in the river, so it has river on three sides. The jungle surrounding it is thick and seemingly primordial. You get to the site by entering a structure called "the labyrinth" - a series of dark, bat-filled passageways of unknown purpose (Carl was reluctant to enter, because he said it reminded him of a horror movie! Not sure when he had seen one of those ...). Once through, you emerge onto a large plaza filled with various structures - the buildings are not impressive, after Palenque, but their true glory is the elaborately-carved lintels over the doorways (many, but not all, of which have been carted off to places like the British Museum). Also, some massive carved stele.
However, opposite the plaza is a huge ceremonial staircase built right up the side of a massive hill. This is truly monumental and impressive - particularly as, to get to the rest of the site, you are expected to climb it. Not easy considering how hot and humid the place is. It is a daunting task. Halfway up, poor Carl was getting dangerously overheated - we had to pour some of our drinking water over his head and make him rest in the shade. Then up, and up some more, to a massive temple at the top - with its roof-comb still more-or-less intact. This temple had a carving on the bottom step of scenes from the Mayan ball-game.
Hey Malthus, a few more questions...
Have you been to more prominent sites in the region like tikal and calakmul? If so, how do you think they compare (which sites were better, I assume the more prominent sites, being offset by the more mass tourism), and if not, is there a reason you ended up in Chiapas?
Also, I think Chiapas is an awesome family vacation idea. Your wife must be really awesome or want to kill you.
These were the first classic era highland maya sites I have ever been to - previously I had been to Oaxaca (monte alban) and to several lowland sites in yucatan like chichen itza, uxmal and kabah.
Of those the most major site is chichen itza. It is impressive all right, but far more similar to 'mexica' type sites than to the highland Mayan. That is, artistically, more emphasis on gory rituals, skull racks, and the like, and the art is cruder - the classic era Mayan stuff is more sophisticated.
Uxmal and Kabah have a unique style very different from either chichen itza or the highland maya - they made mosaics out of stone, which is awesomely cool in its own way. But I still think the classic sites are the best - and I have yet to see Tikal.
Okay, now I'll attempt to add the photos to the previous posts ...
Mexico City
We started by flying in to Mexico City, which has truly terrible traffic - even by Toronto standards :D .
We only had a couple of days there, so we made the most of it - saw the Anthropology Museum (which is stunning - I could have spent a couple of days there), then saw the Tempalo Mayor - the remains of the Aztec temples that the Spaniards knocked down - worth seeing as well, and the onsite museum is great (those Aztecs truly were a wacky bunch).
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A must-see was a statue of the Aztec god of death - a grotesque figure with a bloated smiling face and his liver hanging out of his skeletal chest, he's in a pose like he's about to grab passersby in his talons.
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The Aztecs liked to make keepsakes out of sacrificed skulls:
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Near there is the cathedral, which had a little tour for like 20 pesos that took you up the bell tower - we went on it, thinking nothing much of it - but it was really an amazing experience (though alas the guide spoke no English). Not for the agrophobic! The guide took us up to see the bell tower, which was cool, but then the took us out across the domed roof of the cathedral, hundreds of feet above the ground ... across to the other bell tower. The view was awesome, but terrifying.
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The hotel we were staying at was very luxurious and not too expensive, but I noticed something I did not mention to my wife (who made the booking) - it appears most of the other guests there were wealthy Mexican fellows and their "negotiable affection". ;) Extremely high-class "negotiable affection" I may add. In short, all the dudes were elderly, wealthy men and all the ladies were stunningly beautiful and in their early 20s ...
Anyway, there is tons to see in Mexico City, we barely scratched the surface. After a couple of days, we flew out of Mexico City to Ciapas, directly to a small and very new airport in Palenque itself.
Oh yeah, I forgot - one of the odder experiences in Mexico City itself was while trying to find a short-cut to a restaurant we could see, but not easily get to, from the Tempalo Mayor. We ended up going through a sort of shopping mall of religious trinkets for Mexicans - doing a truly roaring business in stuff like votive candles, big statues of Jesus and the pope, etc. plus some more, um, "traditional" religious stuff - odd herbs and wierd little devil-charms. What was amazing about this place was that it wasn't one store, but literally hundreds of them, on six levels - we were the only non-Mexicans there.
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...
Let me know if you are interested in more pics.
Chiapas
Chiapas is a very different world from Mexico City - might as well be in a different country. For one, the people look different - much more Maya. For another, the countryside looks different - you are now in hardcore jungle: Mexico City looks more like it could be Texas.
One thing you have to get used to, is the Howler Monkies. The term "Howler" does not do them justice - those fuckers sound seriously frightening, more like the bark-roar of something LARGE comming to tear your living guts out. Imagine Bigfoot with his dick caught in a mangle. ;) It is hard to imagine that level of sound comming from an animal less than 3 feet long.
Anyway, greeted by this sound, we pushed on to our hotel (once again, a fairly luxurious accomodation - no more backpacking hostels for me! Not with wife and kid in tow). The main Mayan site is also simply called "Palenque" after the nearby town, though obviously this was not its original name - which was something like "Bone".
Palenque was the first highland Classic-era Mayan site I'd ever seen (I'd previously been to the lowland sites in Yucatán, like Chichen Itza and Uxmal), and it is AWESOME. Full descriptions will have to wait until I download picks, but suffice it to say that this site does not dissapoint the visitor.
First, there is the famous "Temple of the Inscriptions", named for a long hierogliphic text detailing the history of Pacal the Great's life and achievements; sadly, you can't climb this one (one of the few ruins you are not alowed to clamber about on).
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This was the temple in which the tomb of Pacal the Great was found - the "King Tut" find of the Maya - in a fancy inscribed stone coffin of enormous size - you can see it in the site museum, in the only room that has air-conditioning ( :) ) but most of the rich burial artifacts are in the Museum in Mexico City (like his massive jade mask). Next to it is the Temple of the Red Queen, which also has a burial - probably that of Pacal's wife. You can climb that one and even go into her tomb - though again, the artifacts are in Mexico City.
You might have already mentioned it, but how did the rug rat deal with the security presence/danger?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2015, 04:45:32 PM
You might have already mentioned it, but how did the rug rat deal with the security presence/danger?
The danger isn't really much, for ordinary tourists, if you keep away from the drug culture stuff (I mean other than the usual dangers of getting ripped off, pick-pocketed, or mugged). You do see lots of armed cops and soldiers, particularly at checkpoints as you get close to the Guatemalan border - the kid thought that was cool ("I never saw real machine guns before") but took it in stride.
How did the checkpoint shakedown play out (i.e. did you pay the bribe), did the wee one witness it, and did he have any thoughts about it?
Chiapas, Palenque, Con't.
After the "Temple of the Inscriptions", there is the Palace - a very elaborate structure, with (unusually) a fairly high stone tower of unknown purpose built into it.
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The most beautiful sculptures are found in the "court of the captives", which feature relief sculpures of a very high artistic quality by some Mayan Michaelangelo, allegedly depicting high-ranking captives each with his hand on his shoulder (apparently a gesture of submission).
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I was really struck by the sheer artistic quality of these images - many of the Mayan works of art are simply very complex (the Mayas just loved depicting elaborate headgear, like Ladies at Ascot gone insane), but these showed a delicacy of expression and gesture that is rare in any art. I attempted a couple of sketches there, but I'm rusty - I don't think I really caught it.
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I did rather better at the "Pyramid of the Skull", which features a bizzare rabbit-skull relief, complete with bunny ears (and earrings). No idea what this was about, but it made for a fine sketching opportunity.
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As an aside, I highly recommend sketching as an occupation at such sites if you have the time: it doesn't really matter if you have any talent or if the results are any good (though that is a nice bonus), it is a good way to really see these objects: in the bright sun, and with the usual tourist hustling from one place to another, actually taking in the detail of Mayan sculpture (which, as noted, is often very complex) can be extremely hard, otherwise. Also, low relief can be very hard to photograph.
Anyway, after the Palace one crosses a Mayan acqueduct (still working!) and through a short jungley path (ignoring the Howler Monkeys barking up a storm) to the "Temple of the Cross" group.
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This is a series of very high Mayan pyramid-temples with some very complex relief panels in the small temples on top - as I said to Carl, the reward for climbing all those steps is to see the panels. ;) The "cross" referred to isn't the Christian cross, but the depiction of the Mayan symbol for the four cardinal directions - which looks very much like it.
The most odd panel lies atop the very highest of these pyramids: it depicts two persons facing each other, the one on the left looking like a typical Mayan lord, the one on the right like an elderly hippie smoking a huge joint. Seriously, it is an elderly chief (or diety) smoking a big cigar of some sort, the fumes streaming around him, a sort of Mayan Marlboro Man. :P
There is an interesting story associated with this panel. One of the early non-Mayan explorers of the site was an American named John Lloyd Stephens, who showed up with his artist friend Catherwood. He stayed at Palenque to make a series of explorations and drawings (well worth checking out in his Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán, Vol. 2). When he arrived, the panel had already been dislodged from its place and re-installed in a house in the nearby town, owned by two sisters. He decided he wanted to buy it - only problem, the sisters would not sell, unless he bought the house itself. However, there was a catch: to own land in Mexico at the time, you had to either be Mexican, or be married to a Mexican ... so Stephens apparently considered marrying one of the sisters, which caused some trouble, as there were two sisters ... anyway, the whole mess came to nothing, and the panel is back on the pyramid and not, as Stephens intended, in New York. :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
How did the checkpoint shakedown play out (i.e. did you pay the bribe), did the wee one witness it, and did he have any thoughts about it?
Never got shook down, never had to pay a bribe. The cops/soldiers were tamer than I expected.
Chiapas, Palenque, part 3
Another site is the so-called "Temple of the Mad Count". Apparently, or so the story goes, this pyramid temple got its odd name because one of the early explorers of Palenque lived in this place for two years (!) and claimed he was a "Count" - evidently, the locals thought he was insane to live for two years in a jungle-grown ruin in Palenque, when he could be living in his mansion in Paris.
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This man, Frederick Waldeck, was indeed a strange fellow. Apparently, he was a quite compulsive liar and pervert - almost nothing he claimed about himself can be verified, including his alleged title of "Count" (at times he claimed to be a duke or baron). He was notable for two "achievements" in the noble art of bullshitting:
(1) After living in Palenque for two years, he produced a book complete with illustrations that "proved" that the ancient Palenquians were Egyptians. One of his obsessions was with elephants - he saw elephants all over the place in Mayan art (none are there in reality). His fakery had a long after-life: for some eighty years, so-called "diffusionists" were arguing, on the basis of his "research", that the Mayans had immigrated from Egypt or India (those elephants).
(2) He produced a famous and best-selling book of hardcore pornography he claimed was the original of a famous lost Renaissance work, which he alleged to have discovered in a convent near Palenque (!!) [there was no convent anywhere near Palenque].
His death was of a piece with his life: he is alleged to have died, at the age of 109, of a heart attack, caused by excessive leering at a particularly a beautiful woman on the Champs-Élysées. :lol:
Chiapas, Palenque, last
After the Temple of the Count, we travelled down the path to the site museum - which goes down alongside a series of very nice waterfalls (the water comes from that Aqueduct).
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By this time, we were so damn hot and sweaty we were willing to dive right in to some pools at the bottom labelled "the Queen's bathing-pools" - a possibility some killjoy had anticipated, and put up "no bathing" signs to prevent. :lol: There is an ancient Mayan building halfway down described as a "sweat lodge". It simply beggars belief that anyone in Palenque, ancient or modern, could possibly want to get *more* hot and sweaty than simply being there makes you - but there it is.
The site museum is worth a visit - some of the better preserved panels are to be found there. What it has, as mentioned above, is a blessedly air-conditioned room with the carved coffin of Pacal the Great - which is enormous and well worth seeing (just standing in the air conditioning is worth the trip!). What it doesn't have, is any food other than a vending machine: if you go, bring your own.
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Malthus managed to pull off a union of two types of vacations that I thought could never by combined: awesome vacations, and family vacations with youngish children. :cheers:
Quote from: alfred russel on March 21, 2015, 08:34:12 PM
Malthus managed to pull off a union of two types of vacations that I thought could never by combined: awesome vacations, and family vacations with youngish children. :cheers:
Thanks - fortunately, my kid is into the same stuff, at least to an extent, and at nine he's just old enough to really appreciate it. As an exercise we made him keep a journal, which proved very entertaining for us - after visiting the sites in Mexico City, he wrote this:
"At first the Aztec Empire was a land of war and islands; at the end it was a land of survivors an ruins.
I'll tell the story, they fought against many other tribes and had many gruesome customs. Later on, soldiers from Spain came and they tried to befriend them, but the soldiers torched their city to ashes and only spared the strongest for slaves ( happy ending!)"
Needs pics of the stunningly beautiful Slovenian woman.
Cool trip Malthus - thanks for the pics. :thumbsup:
I've thought before about trying for a similar trip - screw the beach resorts, just go to Mexico to visit the Mayans ruins. I only got to visit Chichen Itza the one time I was in Mexico and it was absolutely fascinating, but I understood even at the time it was comparatively a minor ruin for the Mayans.
Quote from: Malthus on March 21, 2015, 05:21:59 PM
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You know that it shows Pacal sitting in a space capsule, right? :P
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:area52: :cthulu: :tinfoil:
Heh, gotta love those ancient aliens. They do get around. :D
Chiapas - day trip out of Palenque - Yaxchilan
While in Palenque, we learned that it was possible to pay for a bus trip to visit two other very significant sites - Yaxchilan and Bonampak. Emphasis on the word "possible". If I had any idea of the length and difficulty of the trip, I may have reconsidered - which would have been a shame, because the sites are well worth the effort.
We paid our price, and woke up at 5 in the AM to be picked up. The guy arrived, with a lovely couple from Slovenia already aboard - the woman was stunningly beautiful, and I mean stunning. [Sorry, no pics ... I'm not that crass :P ]
The bus was in bad shape - apparently held together with chewing gum and twine. I realized we may me in for it when the first thing the driver did was stop to buy a large supply of oil - he spent the rest of the trip feeding oil into his machine. Unfortunately, the road was very hilly in parts, causing my wife no end of grief (she hates scary drives) and the engine no end of stress. However, though it had some moments when it sounded like it was expiring, the driver did manage to coax it there and back again - three hours of driving each way.
Yaxchilan is right on the border with Guatemala, which is apparently to Mexico as Mexico is to the US - that is, a source of illegal immigrants and drugs. So the closer we got to Yaxchilan, the thicker the military and police presence became - we passed checkpoint after checkpoint, complete with stone-faced Mexican soldiers with assault rifles and riot shotguns (they stopped us only long enough to leer at the lovely Slovine and my wife - evidently, we did not resemble Guatemalan migrant workers. They did not, however, hit us up for bribes, which I had been fearing).
You can't actually drive to Yaxchilan - it is reachable only by boat, so after the three-hour drive came a 40 minute ride on a local's rented motorboat-canoe on the muddy, massive Usumacinta River (complete with hungry-looking crocodiles and, of course, Howler Monkies). Finally, we arrived at the site ...
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Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2015, 03:38:15 PM
Heh, gotta love those ancient aliens. They do get around. :D
I saw a documentary about that once. I think it was called "Stargate." :)
Chiapas - day trip out of Palenque - Yaxchilan part 2
I had known about this site for ten years, because the first time I went to Mexico, I bought from a Mayan artist his carving of a copy of a lintel from this place - the original of which was taken from the site and ended up in the British Museum. The lintel depicts a noblewoman of Yaxcilan engaging in a hallucinatory ritual in which she pierced herself with stingray spines, poured her blood onto some paper, and burned the paper in sacrifice. The lintel depicts the moment of burning the paper - the noblewoman in kneeling, holding a bowl with burning paper; the smoke rises up and turns into a serpent; and out of the mouth of the serpent emerges an ancestor-warrior, giving her a prophecy that the reign of the newly-installed king will be glorious. All of which is explained in the hieroglyphs on the lintel (which, for some unknown reason, are written in mirror-image!).
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Anyway, I thought the carving I bought was very well done, and I became fascinated by the odd imagery - a few years later, I sought out the original in the British Museum; but I never thought I would actually get to Yaxchilan itself, as it is notoriously remote ... but now, here we were.
The original:
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The site itself is in the most beautiful location - right in a massive bend in the river, so it has river on three sides. The jungle surrounding it is thick and seemingly primordial. You get to the site by entering a structure called "the labyrinth" - a series of dark, bat-filled passageways of unknown purpose (Carl was reluctant to enter, because he said it reminded him of a horror movie! Not sure when he had seen one of those ...). Once through, you emerge onto a large plaza filled with various structures - the buildings are not impressive, after Palenque, but their true glory is the elaborately-carved lintels over the doorways (many, but not all, of which have been carted off to places like the British Museum). Also, some massive carved stele.
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However, opposite the plaza is a huge ceremonial staircase built right up the side of a massive hill. This is truly monumental and impressive - particularly as, to get to the rest of the site, you are expected to climb it. Not easy considering how hot and humid the place is. It is a daunting task. Halfway up, poor Carl was getting dangerously overheated - we had to pour some of our drinking water over his head and make him rest in the shade. Then up, and up some more, to a massive temple at the top - with its roof-comb still more-or-less intact. This temple had a carving on the bottom step of scenes from the Mayan ball-game.
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Quote from: Syt on March 22, 2015, 03:48:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2015, 03:38:15 PM
Heh, gotta love those ancient aliens. They do get around. :D
I saw a documentary about that once. I think it was called "Stargate." :)
:D
In fact, nuts theories about the ancient Maya are everywhere - while the ancient aliens types are a farcical fad, the 'Mayans as peaceful utopians' one is longer-lasting, but also quite wrong, as the next site shows ...
Cool pictures, btw. I believe I've seen Yaxchilan in a few documentaries, and I'm rather jealous of the whole trip. :)
Chiapas - day trip out of Palenque - Bonampak
The last site we went to was Bonampak. Again, I'd heard of this place before, but never imagined going there. This place is famous because it is the only one in which actual Mayan paintings have survived - in vivid colour.
The site was long known by the local Lacandon Mayans (I assume, the descendants of the original inhabitants). Outsiders only learned of it in the 1940s. Unfortunately, the first visitors were not exactly what we would call professional archaeologists, and did stuff like throw kerosene on the murals to bring out the colours - which did the murals no good at all. Still, some of them are pretty clear.
I had entirely the wrong idea about this place - I though the murals were found in underground caves. Not so. They were found in a temple building halfway up a pyramid - this pyramid, in the structure with the awning.
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The murals tell a story, of a great victory by the king of Bonampak over his enemies. The story is divided into three tiny buildings (you can only fit about three people in each, and photography is pretty difficult). In the first building, the warriors of Bonampak are consecrating their ruler, with dances and ceremonies:
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Notice the guy on the right with a funky skull on his hat:
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In the second room (unfortunately, the most degraded) there is a terrific battle, and the warriors from Bonampak are winning. Here a captive is being taken (it is kinda hard to see, but he's being grabbed by the hair):
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The other wall shows the nasty fate of the captives - they plead for mercy:
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But they plead in vain:
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Finally, the third room shows the victory celebration. Blow the trumpets!
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Some lords are piercing their tongues for the hallucinatory blood-letting ceremony depicted intuit lintel I was talking about:
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Very nice pictures Malthus, keep them coming. :)
And I echo PDH's desire of a glimpse at the Balkanic Beauty. :P
Quote from: The Larch on March 22, 2015, 07:44:57 PM
Very nice pictures Malthus, keep them coming. :)
And I echo PDH's desire of a glimpse at the Balkanic Beauty. :P
That's about it for Mayan ruins - after Bonampak, we took a few days on the Maya Riviera so that Carl could play in the ocean and build sand-castles. On a touristic note, we did something recommended to us by friends: rented someone's condo (rather than going to a hotel). It worked out well. The place was very luxurious, and not too expensive.
As for the Balkan Beauty, sadly no pics. ;)
Following up, I'm reading a bunch of books on the Maya.
I've read A Forest Of Kings by Linda Schele and David Freidel - which is excellent, if somewhat old (25 years is a long time in this field). It describes the meaning of the monuments at several sites - including Palenque and Yaxchillan - by the people who played a big role in the recent decipherment of Mayan glyphs.
I'm right now reading The Ancient Maya (6th ed.) by R. Sharer, which is a mighty thick tome - a lot drier that the other one, but covers more ground. This book was clearly intended as a university textbook; its value is that it is more recent.
I'm particularly interested in tracing the Tikal-Calakmul wars - which appera to have been the Classic Mayan version of the World Wars (or, a better analogy, the Mayan version of the Peloponnesian War). Interestingly, all of the best-known sites today were on the side of Tikal - Tikal itself, Copan, and Palenque. The Calakmul sites are not as well known as tourist destinations.
Did you get chance to view any Olmec stuff?
Malthus went to Mejico?
But, but, mexicans hate jews....!
By the way, that picture in the mexican religious store, is that an alien?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1056.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft361%2Fevan2%2Fmexico%2520trip%25202015%2FIMG_1175_zpsuhoawv9v.jpg&hash=8279f6bbf5979c67ca58c2e91da62ebad6bd4060)
Quote from: katmai on April 14, 2015, 12:47:46 PM
Did you get chance to view any Olmec stuff?
Just a couple of those giant stone heads they had in the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City (which is, BTW, awesome and not to be missed if you happen to be there - though viewing the place takes much of a day!).
I understand that the Olmecs were sort of the progenitor culture for much of mesoamerica - by the Classic Maya era, they were already ancient history, but the Maya may well have inherited many of their cultural traits from them.
Yeah they were from 1500-400BC. Some beautiful artwork in way of jade masks are the other thing noted for besides the large head statues.
Cool read all around Mal, glad to read it all.
And it's only you we don't like siege.
Quote from: Siege on April 14, 2015, 12:50:33 PM
Malthus went to Mejico?
But, but, mexicans hate jews....!
I don't think the locals in Chiapas care one way or the other about Jews. :D Foreign tourists tend to be classified on a grid with relative wealth as the X axis and politeness as the Y axis ...
Quote
By the way, that picture in the mexican religious store, is that an alien?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1056.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft361%2Fevan2%2Fmexico%2520trip%25202015%2FIMG_1175_zpsuhoawv9v.jpg&hash=8279f6bbf5979c67ca58c2e91da62ebad6bd4060)
I have no idea what that ... thing ... is. Googling suggest that it may simply be a dried fish, though why they are selling it remains a mystery. :lol:
That whole place was seriously wierd.
Quote from: katmai on April 14, 2015, 01:00:02 PM
Yeah they were from 1500-400BC. Some beautiful artwork in way of jade masks are the other thing noted for besides the large head statues.
Cool read all around Mal, glad to read it all.
And it's only you we don't like siege.
They also have those strange were-jaguar-baby sculptures of unknown meaning ... that's something the Maya did not pick up on.
Glad you enjoyed the read - Mexico is truly an awesome place for this sort of touristing about. There is tons to see, you could spend years and only cover the major sites. Apparently, Calakmul is an awesome site, as you would expect from being Tikal's nemesis, but hard to get to and so mostly unvisited.
It is eh? Was it more Athens vs. Athens than Athens vs. Sparta then?
Are the Mayans aware New Age people in the United States thought their ancestors predicted the world would end a bit over two years ago?
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 01:26:11 PM
It is eh? Was it more Athens vs. Athens than Athens vs. Sparta then?
Never been there so I don't know ... it may be just random chance, ease of access, and preservation that makes the "Tikal plus allies (Copan, Palenque)" more prominent on the tourist itinerary than "Calakmul plus allies". ;) I just thought it was funny that all of the "major sites" were effectively on the same side of this big war.
QuoteAre the Mayans aware New Age people in the United States thought their ancestors predicted the world would end a bit over two years ago?
I have no idea - I certainly didn't ask any about it. :lol:
Anyway, the Mayans would have built a really big pyramid to mark the occasion, not assume that the world would end (apparently, some Mayan inscriptions looked forward to events thousands of years in the future - specifically, celebrations of important victories and kings - though that may have been more a rhetorical flourish than a serious 'prediction', it certainly indicates that the ancient Mayans did *not* believe the world ended when the calender reset!)
Quote from: Malthus on April 14, 2015, 01:35:25 PM
Anyway, the Mayans would have built a really big pyramid to mark the occasion, not assume that the world would end (apparently, some Mayan inscriptions looked forward to events thousands of years in the future - specifically, celebrations of important victories and kings - though that may have been more a rhetorical flourish than a serious 'prediction', it certainly indicates that the ancient Mayans did *not* believe the world ended when the calender reset!)
I am waiting for the dawning of the age of Aquarius
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 02:01:27 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 14, 2015, 01:35:25 PM
Anyway, the Mayans would have built a really big pyramid to mark the occasion, not assume that the world would end (apparently, some Mayan inscriptions looked forward to events thousands of years in the future - specifically, celebrations of important victories and kings - though that may have been more a rhetorical flourish than a serious 'prediction', it certainly indicates that the ancient Mayans did *not* believe the world ended when the calender reset!)
I am waiting for the dawning of the age of Aquarius
When the Moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars? ;)
Anyway, the Classic-era Mayans appear to have mostly used astology for predicting when it would be a good idea to attack one's enemies (Venus allignments were frequently mentioned in this context - in the glyphs, the symbol for Venus, added to that for the defeated city, meant a specific sort of victory - one in which the victim was completely overthown and their capital plundered, as opposed to a mere raid for captives to sacrifice - termed by some archaeologists as a "Star War" event :lol: You can tell when
this was discovered ... )
I find it amazing how widespread astrology was in the old days. It seemed like everybody did it.
And in Roman history the astrologers were not only always right but very specific in their predictions :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 02:34:44 PM
I find it amazing how widespread astrology was in the old days. It seemed like everybody did it.
And in Roman history the astrologers were not only always right but very specific in their predictions :lol:
At least the Mayans didn't predict the outcomes of battles by the feeding patterns of sacred chickens. ;)
"Bibant, quoniam esse nolunt." - Pulcher, Battle of Drepana
Quote from: Siege on April 14, 2015, 12:50:33 PM
Malthus went to Mejico?
But, but, mexicans hate jews....!
Not only that, but his sun glasses were not stolen either.
Quote from: katmai on April 14, 2015, 01:00:02 PM
Yeah they were from 1500-400BC. Some beautiful artwork in way of jade masks are the other thing noted for besides the large head statues.
Cool read all around Mal, glad to read it all.
And it's only you we don't like siege.
"We" :rolleyes:
Katmai is an ethnic Tejano and he knows it.
Quote from: derspiess on April 14, 2015, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 14, 2015, 01:00:02 PM
Yeah they were from 1500-400BC. Some beautiful artwork in way of jade masks are the other thing noted for besides the large head statues.
Cool read all around Mal, glad to read it all.
And it's only you we don't like siege.
"We" :rolleyes:
Yes i speak for all Mexicans on languish, sorry but you aren't privy to that memo since you married a gaucha :P
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 03:07:54 PM
Katmai is an ethnic Tejano and he knows it.
Don't you ever speak of this again, i don't care if it is the truth :ultra:
:nelson:
Does Katmai dig accordions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G5_d17tVYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G5_d17tVYY)
Who doesn't?? :blink:
Quote from: Malthus on April 14, 2015, 01:04:00 PM
Quote
By the way, that picture in the mexican religious store, is that an alien?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1056.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft361%2Fevan2%2Fmexico%2520trip%25202015%2FIMG_1175_zpsuhoawv9v.jpg&hash=8279f6bbf5979c67ca58c2e91da62ebad6bd4060)
I have no idea what that ... thing ... is. Googling suggest that it may simply be a dried fish, though why they are selling it remains a mystery. :lol:
That whole place was seriously wierd.
Can't you read? It's the Devil! :mad:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2015, 06:50:35 PM
Can't you read? It's the Devil! :mad:
No, it's clearly a devil-shaped Pez dispenser.
:lol:
Seiously though - I was warned off taking photos there. :hmm:
On a follow-up note: I recently bought a beautiful coffee-table-type book on the Bonampak murals (pictured above). I was hoping to learn more about them.
The problem: not much is actually known. Even though they can now read the hieroglyphic incriptions, they aren't very helpful. Basically, they provide a long-count date and a description of the various rituals associated with the dedication of the monument itself - the author described it as "Mayan boilerplate". :lol:
It is sort of like as if aliens had found a complex movie, but the only written description of what the movie was about, was the copyright notice.
Edit: also included reconstructions of some of the murals that were too dark or blurred to see, many of extreme wierdness - WTF is this all about? :cthulu: http://benedante.blogspot.ca/2010/03/bonampak.html