Languish.org

It won't happen, but what do you guys think, should it happen?

EDIT: That second option should say "only if" not only is. <_<
http://www.todayonline.com/world/juncker-calls-eu-army-says-would-deter-russia

QuoteJuncker calls for EU army, says would deter Russia

Published: 10:33 PM, March 8, 2015


BERLIN - The European Union needs its own army to face up to Russia and other threats as well as restore the bloc's foreign policy standing around the world, EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told a German newspaper on Sunday.

Arguing that NATO was not enough because not all members of the transatlantic defense alliance are in the EU, Juncker said a common EU army would also send important signals to the world.

"A joint EU army would show the world that there would never again be a war between EU countries," Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper. "Such an army would also help us to form common foreign and security policies and allow Europe to take on responsibility in the world."

Juncker said a common EU army could serve as a deterrent and would have been useful during the Ukraine crisis.

"With its own army, Europe could react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state or in a neighboring state.

"One wouldn't have a European army to deploy it immediately. But a common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values."

The 28-nation EU already has battle groups that are manned on a rotational basis and meant to be available as a rapid reaction force. But they have never been used in a crisis.

EU leaders have said they want to boost the common security policy by improving rapid response capabilities.

But Britain, along with France one of the two main military powers in the bloc, has been wary of giving a bigger military role to the EU, fearing it could undermine NATO.

German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen welcomed Juncker's proposal: "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army," she told German radio. REUTERS

What is NATO for then?

Quote from: Monoriu on March 11, 2015, 09:04:11 PM
What is NATO for then?

That question doesn't really make any sense. NATO is a military alliance, the EU is a political construct.

The better question is how a standing EU army would fit into NATO insofar as NATO member nations would presumably fund/man such an army in preference to their own, but since the EU is a not a NATO member, how would NATO members meet their NATO obligations if they were part of a EU army instead?

Of course, almost none of them meet their NATO obligations anyway, so it probably doesn't matter.

Yes.  If all those tiny budgets are pooled to fund one military maybe they might amount to something.  Heck maybe there would be a 2% of EU GNP requirement.

But this would also require a unified foreign policy and LOL at that ever happening.

If I were a small EU country, my question would be, why should I spend 2% GDP on this?  It makes no real difference.  A better alternative is to free ride.  Let the Americans and French and British spend their 2% GDP.  I keep my 2% for lower taxes or welfare.  Ok, I keep 1.8% and spend 0.2% just so I can say I also contributed. 

Quote from: Monoriu on March 11, 2015, 09:38:18 PM
If I were a small EU country, my question would be, why should I spend 2% GDP on this?  It makes no real difference.  A better alternative is to free ride.  Let the Americans and French and British spend their 2% GDP.  I keep my 2% for lower taxes or welfare.  Ok, I keep 1.8% and spend 0.2% just so I can say I also contributed.

Current budget $192.535 Billion. 1,551,038 active duty personel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union#Expenditure_and_personnel

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 11, 2015, 09:44:17 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on March 11, 2015, 09:38:18 PM
If I were a small EU country, my question would be, why should I spend 2% GDP on this?  It makes no real difference.  A better alternative is to free ride.  Let the Americans and French and British spend their 2% GDP.  I keep my 2% for lower taxes or welfare.  Ok, I keep 1.8% and spend 0.2% just so I can say I also contributed.

Current budget $192.535 Billion. 1,551,038 active duty personel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union#Expenditure_and_personnel

Greece keeps 1,622 main battle tanks and 2,187 armoured fighting vehicles to fight against their budget deficits and creditors.  Who said they did everything they could to cut expenditure  :lol:

Yes there should be a standing European army, part of NATO, if possible, but it won't happen.

"An EU Army to face Russia? Who do you think you're kidding, Mr Juncker? - Nigel Farage "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUtdZyL_Mk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUtdZyL_Mk)

Quote from: Monoriu on March 11, 2015, 09:50:25 PM
Greece keeps 1,622 main battle tanks and 2,187 armoured fighting vehicles ...

That's to not be too humiliated by Turkey.

Quote from: citizen k on March 11, 2015, 10:47:07 PM
"An EU Army to face Russia? Who do you think you're kidding, Mr Juncker? - Nigel Farage "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUtdZyL_Mk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUtdZyL_Mk)

With lines like this, you'd think UKIP was on Russian pay. Oh wait.

There's already an armed force to face Russia.  It's called STRATCOM.  P.S.: Europe owes us about one trillion dollars, but you can pay us in virgins.

Quote from: Ideologue on March 12, 2015, 01:32:29 AM
There's already an armed force to face Russia.  It's called STRATCOM.  P.S.: Europe owes us about one trillion dollars, but you can pay us in virgins.

Given that the average age of consent in Europe is 15, what would you do with our 12 year olds and a bunch of IT technicians?  :hmm:

Raise them till they were 18, then go nuts.  This isn't rocket science.

Foreign STEM workers are the cancer of the American middle class.  You can keep Tamas.

Now answer my law question in the movies thread.  You're probably as qualified to answer as anybody here, save possibly Joan.

The EU should only have an army once the members are willing to dissolve their own.

Quote from: Ideologue on March 12, 2015, 01:42:49 AM
Now answer my law question in the movies thread.  You're probably as qualified to answer as anybody here, save possibly Joan.

I have no clue - it's not something encountered in Polish law trials and I am not a litigation lawyer.

Maybe we could start with a common navy.

Before aiming for an EU army, it would be better to try and make the much more modest EU Battlegroup concept work properly.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.business2community.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2Fkirk-klingons-laughin2.jpg&hash=09045a15a4966f70f9b329d09f75c60db859f5e4)

It would just be good if more of the Euro nations could just come closer to meeting NATO obligations/requirements.

Does it really have to be a standing army? I mean, can't they sit down every once in a while at least?

Quote from: lustindarkness on March 12, 2015, 12:02:26 PM
Does it really have to be a standing army? I mean, can't they sit down every once in a while at least?

Not so long as we have a sitting president.

Makes sense.

An EU army is a horrible idea.

Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 01:12:16 PM
An EU army is a horrible idea.

True but better than 25 paper armies.

Sure there might be lots of languages but just have everybody learn English.

Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 01:15:19 PM

Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 01:12:16 PM
An EU army is a horrible idea.

True but better than 25 paper armies.

Sure there might be lots of languages but just have everybody learn English.

The EU should be as impotent as possible. Giving it an army is just bizarre.

Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 01:16:57 PM
The EU should be as impotent as possible. Giving it an army is just bizarre.

Well of course you feel that way, Sweden being an anti-NATO traitorous fourth column. 

Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2015, 01:22:05 PM

Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2015, 01:16:57 PM
The EU should be as impotent as possible. Giving it an army is just bizarre.

Well of course you feel that way, Sweden being an anti-NATO traitorous fourth column.

:hmm:

Yeah, what happened to the other column?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 12, 2015, 02:37:36 PM
Yeah, what happened to the other column?

General Franco left that one at home :blush:

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 11, 2015, 09:02:37 PM
It won't happen, but what do you guys think, should it happen?

EDIT: That second option should say "only if" not only is. <_<
http://www.todayonline.com/world/juncker-calls-eu-army-says-would-deter-russia

Fuck no.
The world doesn't need another wanna-be superpower.

Quote from: citizen k on March 11, 2015, 10:57:04 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on March 11, 2015, 09:50:25 PM
Greece keeps 1,622 main battle tanks and 2,187 armoured fighting vehicles ...

That's to not be too humiliated by Turkey.

WW2 vintage equipment is worthless in combat. The American-Arab wars have proven that when on the losing side of a technological gap, not having any armored vehicles is better and more combat effective, because it forces the low tech guys to use uncoventional and more survivable tactics.

A level 5 army can easily dispose of a level 4 army, but it cannot fix and destroy a low tech level 1 army.

Yes. It would save a lot of money.

Yes, having a 20+ underfunded miniarmies is extremely ineffectual and counter-productive. We won't see it, though.

I agree a much more feasible start would be properly implementing the Eurofor, though.

Quote from: Valmy on March 11, 2015, 09:32:46 PM
Yes.  If all those tiny budgets are pooled to fund one military maybe they might amount to something.

Yes it would.
One gigantic pension fund worth billions, and 63 active combat soldiers ready for duty speaking 24 different languages.

No.

On the other hand if he lost the superfluous 'c' I'd probably trust Juncker, of all Euro-leaders, to fashion one.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile if it was done a bit like the Delian League  :hmm:

Stupid mini-countries could pay tribute to the major countries who could then use the money to raise decent forces.

Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 01:38:22 AM
Given that the average age of consent in Europe is 15, what would you do with our 12 year olds and a bunch of IT technicians?  :hmm:

Good one Marty. :thumbsup:

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 11, 2015, 09:02:37 PM
It won't happen, but what do you guys think, should it happen?

Yes and under the full command of the Wehrmacht...errrr Bundeswehr