http://www.thelocal.at/20140716/austrian-hotel-has-worlds-best-wine-list
QuoteAustrian hotel has world's best wine list
World of Fine Wine magazine surveyed 750 restaurants from around the globe, to find out which establishment offered the most impressive selection of wines. The winner by a clear margin was Vienna's Palais Coburg Hotel Residence.
The hotel hosted the recent summit between US Secretary of State John Kerry, Iran's foreign minister and various European colleagues.
While the discussions over the negotiating table may have been tense, participants would have had at their fingertips the most impressive selection of wines in the world.
The World of Fine Wine magazine editor Neil Beckett assembled an international panel of expert judges, who then worked through the wine lists of 750 restaurants, awarding them one, two or three stars. Only 225 wine lists made it into the three-star category.
A range of certificates were then awarded, including Best Overall Wine List, Best Champagne and Sparkling Wine List, Best Dessert and Fortified Wine List, and so on. After extensive analysis, the clear winner was Austria's Palais Coburg hotel.
Its list represented an unparalleled selection, acquired over many years by the Viennese luxury five-star hotel. It was described by senior judge and contributing editor Andre Jefford as "almost dauntingly complete, completely eye-boggling and jaw-dropping."
"The cellars must go on for miles," Jefford continued. "The Austrian speciality is comprehensive even beyond the dreams of retail, and how many global restaurants could compete with this one for verticals of classics? As a big gun list, I don't see that this can be beaten."
In fact, Palais Coburg has six cellars, some of which date back to the 16th century, each with the perfect climate for storing wine.
It boasts more than 60,000 bottles spanning four centuries. The cellars include the France Cellar, the Old World Cellar, the New World Cellar, the Rare Wine Cellar, the Yquem Cellar and the Champagne Cellar.
A stunning feature of the French cellar must be the double magnum 1865 Château Lafite-Rothschild, last auctioned at Sotheby's in New York on May 20th 2006.
An excerpt from Robert Parker's tasting records in 1995 reads: "It is unimaginable that a wine produced 130 years ago can still taste so extraordinary, yet I was there - I saw it, smelled it, and drank it. Unreal!"
The rarities cellar houses what Christie's head sommelier Michael Broadbent, Master of Wine, considers the oldest wine that is still drinkable, the 1727 Rüdesheimer Apostelwein from the Ratskeller in Bremen.
Naturally, wines of this calibre don't come cheap. A double magnum 1999 Sine Qua Non The Marouder, Syrah will set you back a mere €11,000 (US$15,000). Or if you're feeling flush, you could sample the Grand Cru 1996 La Mondotte Melchior (18 litres) for €31,200 (US$42,000).
It might take some time to read through all 138 pages of the wine list, so a simpler option may be to place yourself in the hands of the hotel's master sommeliers, give a budget and describe your tastes, and they are certain to find a suitable wine for each palate.
And if you do make it to the Silvio Nickol Gourmet Restaurant (with its two Michelin stars, naturellement), make sure to try some of the excellent Austrian wines, as you soak up the ambience in this queen of old-world cities.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.drooms.nl%2F131220124124212959559.jpg&hash=6464efef5a6e366c52a5691dff428dc84150d726)
It appears to be out of my price range, but Minsky might be interested. :P
P.S.: The wine list in PDF form:
http://www.coburg.at/downloads/pdf/Weinkarte%20Coburg%2021%20Mai%202014.pdf
Ein Bier bitte!
If I go to that restaurant, I'll order tap water.
Quote from: Zanza on July 19, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
Ein Bier bitte!
I'm partial to beer myself, but I've come to like the Austrian whites quite a bit, too.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 19, 2014, 11:03:10 AM
If I go to that restaurant, I'll order tap water.
Some Austrian places have started charging a service fee for tap water.
A Tampa steakhouse (Bern's) has a 6,500 different selections and 500,000 bottles in its cellar. I'm surprised it didn't win, people often say it has the most impressive wine list in the world.
http://www.bernssteakhouse.com/Berns-Wine-Cellar
http://www.tampabay.com/features/food/restaurants/berns-wine-menu-the-list-to-end-all-lists/1143874
Tampa, puhleeze.
Does that ever get tiresome? Seems exhausting to me.
No. Derspiess told me to do what comes naturally.
On a serious note, I don't think most people would think Tampa would have the world's best wine selection. Neat that it apparently has a restaurant with a good one.
Austria and a expansive cellar, no joke yet, languish fails. :(
Those prices are just unreal. I had lunch in a few michelin-starred restaurants in France. Euro$100-150 is normally enough for a tasting menu of like 5-6 courses, including tea and coffee. If all I want is appetiser, main course and dessert, I can probably get away with Euro$30-60 (lunch only). I am not going to pay more than Euro$10 on drinks. Euro$100 for a bottle of wine is already crazy territory. It isn't like I get wine anyway.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 19, 2014, 07:25:35 PM
Those prices are just unreal. I had lunch in a few michelin-starred restaurants in France. Euro$100-150 is normally enough for a tasting menu of like 5-6 courses, including tea and coffee. If all I want is appetiser, main course and dessert, I can probably get away with Euro$30-60 (lunch only). I am not going to pay more than Euro$10 on drinks. Euro$100 for a bottle of wine is already crazy territory. It isn't like I get wine anyway.
*sigh*
Quote from: Monoriu on July 19, 2014, 07:25:35 PM
Those prices are just unreal. I had lunch in a few michelin-starred restaurants in France. Euro$100-150 is normally enough for a tasting menu of like 5-6 courses, including tea and coffee. If all I want is appetiser, main course and dessert, I can probably get away with Euro$30-60 (lunch only). I am not going to pay more than Euro$10 on drinks. Euro$100 for a bottle of wine is already crazy territory. It isn't like I get wine anyway.
Of all people on here aren't you the one usually most willing to spend money on food? I recall some stories of very expensive meals.
Did you not read what he wrote? Laying down 30-60 eurodollars a plate? The high life has changed you, Josq. :(
Mono buys desserts made of gold.
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2014, 01:53:52 AM
Of all people on here aren't you the one usually most willing to spend money on food? I recall some stories of very expensive meals.
You only remember half the story. I love good food, but I can't really afford it. To save money, I try to -
1. Restrict myself to lunches;
2. Buy set menus as far as possible;
3. Buy food only. No drinks;
4. Take advantage of discount offers. Credit cards offer them all the time;
5. Share food with the wife. Say, we may order 1 set lunch plus one appetiser to share between us;
6. Save on tips.
So we usually order tap water, even if we have meals at 3-star michelin (3 is max) restaurants in Paris.
And I don't really enjoy wine anyway. I just don't like the taste. If the meal comes with a glass of red wine anyway, I usually try to see if I can get them to switch to orange juice or coffee.
QuoteSave on tips.
I don't even want you to elaborate, because I tire of being mad at you.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 20, 2014, 03:14:05 AM
QuoteSave on tips.
I don't even want you to elaborate, because I tire of being mad at you.
:hug:
:)
I spent a hundred bucks on a cake. Plus shipping.
https://www.peninsulagrill.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 20, 2014, 08:42:40 AM
I spent a hundred bucks on a cake. Plus shipping.
https://www.peninsulagrill.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2
I doubt it's better than Imperial Cake.
https://www.imperialtorte.at/en/shop/welcome-to-the-shop/
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 20, 2014, 08:42:40 AM
I spent a hundred bucks on a cake. Plus shipping.
https://www.peninsulagrill.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2
Eww. Coconut cake...
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2014, 09:17:30 AM
It appears to be out of my price range, but Minsky might be interested. :P
Have to see the food menu too, but I'd be tempted to pull the trigger on one of those Nikolaihof gruners, nothwithstanding the deep French bench, on the "when in Rome" theory of wine selection.
Austrian wine has done nicely since they dropped the antifreeze. ;)
Where are all the financial scolds who get on my back about buying blu-rays now?
Quote from: Ideologue on July 20, 2014, 03:14:05 AM
QuoteSave on tips.
I don't even want you to elaborate, because I tire of being mad at you.
No shit. Nigga's not full until he wipes out a subspecies of African Rhino, but he'll shaft the waiter.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 21, 2014, 10:17:57 AM
Austrian wine has done nicely since they dropped the antifreeze. ;)
There was a lot of resistance when quality controls were increased after the scandal, but it's done wonders for the wines in the region.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 21, 2014, 11:00:10 AM
Where are all the financial scolds who get on my back about buying blu-rays now?
Are you thinking of paying those prices for wine or cake?
Quote from: Ideologue on July 21, 2014, 11:00:10 AM
Where are all the financial scolds who get on my back about buying blu-rays now?
We assume that Minsky has already paid his law degree. :smarty:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 21, 2014, 10:17:57 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 19, 2014, 09:17:30 AM
It appears to be out of my price range, but Minsky might be interested. :P
Have to see the food menu too, but I'd be tempted to pull the trigger on one of those Nikolaihof gruners, nothwithstanding the deep French bench, on the "when in Rome" theory of wine selection.
Austrian wine has done nicely since they dropped the antifreeze. ;)
Gruner is very "in" over here right now, along with Jura & Galician whites. I personally think it's a bit over priced compared to other decent mid-price whites.
Most extensive wine list I ever saw was in a pizza place in a ski resort in Switzerland. They did nothing but basement level Italian - pizzas, spag bog etc but had an 120 page wine list with 20 or so vintages of all of the top bugundies, first growths etc
Quote from: Zanza on July 21, 2014, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 21, 2014, 11:00:10 AM
Where are all the financial scolds who get on my back about buying blu-rays now?
We assume that Minsky has already paid his law degree. :smarty:
:) :yes:
Btw, it's Grüner Veltliner. Grün, or "gruner" being the color. :P
I want to know what planning staffer in the 15th USAAF during the war managed to miss targeting that hotel and all its wine bullshit we have to listen to now.
No one made you clink the link.
I'm sure if you asked nicely they could dig up some Bushmills for you.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 21, 2014, 11:46:59 AM
No one made you clink the link.
I'm sure if you asked nicely they could dig up some Bushmills for you.
That's protestant whisky.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2014, 11:39:35 AM
I want to know what planning staffer in the 15th USAAF during the war managed to miss targeting that hotel and all its wine bullshit we have to listen to now.
It was actually hit by bombs in WW2. :P
Quote from: Ideologue on July 21, 2014, 11:00:10 AM
Where are all the financial scolds who get on my back about buying blu-rays now?
You got a problem bub?
Quote from: Syt on July 21, 2014, 11:57:00 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2014, 11:39:35 AM
I want to know what planning staffer in the 15th USAAF during the war managed to miss targeting that hotel and all its wine bullshit we have to listen to now.
It was actually hit by bombs in WW2. :P
Obviously not enough to penetrate the wine douchebag bunker.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2014, 03:28:11 PM
Obviously not enough to penetrate the wine douchebag bunker.
As between that bunker and the one for the actual Austrians, the wine bunker was deemed higher priority to protect.
I think they need to do something about the formats of wine lists. For someone who knows next to nothing about wine, I usually give up when I reach page 2. The prices are too scary, the names mean nothing, the geographic regions also do zilch to me. As a way to convince people to buy wine, it is totally user-unfriendly.
First of all, we need executive summaries. There is no way I am going to read every line in a 10-page drink list. 2 pages of your best stuff please. Or at least have something like a table of contents or index. The current format is like a website without a search button. They don't give people 30-page food menus, then why give people 30-page drink lists? The best solution I have seen is that some restaurants add a page in front of the food menu on the recommended drinks.
Next, we need information. Say, Osso Bucco. I know what Osso Bucco is, but a lot of people don't. You don't just write Osso Bucco and the price in the food menu, right? There is usually a line below the name giving a general idea on what it is, and the major ingredients. The same should be done for drink lists. There needs to be some explanation on the general properties of a drink. They've figured out how to do food menus right, but somehow not for drinks.
I know somebody will probably say "ask the waiter". It works in theory, but imagine this - at 1:00pm in the central business district, where everybody is in a hurry to rush back to the office at 2:00pm, and 6 tables have raised their hands to place their orders at the same time, your expert waiters won't have time for them. It is a warzone, and it needs to be treated as one.
Why are you drinking wine at lunch?
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
Why are you drinking wine at lunch?
Why wouldn't one be? :huh:
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
Why are you drinking wine at lunch?
I don't. I don't even drink wine for dinner. I just think the drink list format can be improved as a means to convince people to buy drinks.
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2014, 09:39:35 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
Why are you drinking wine at lunch?
Why wouldn't one be? :huh:
I only have a half hour lunch break, which is usually not long enough to go to a restaurant. And they frown on drinking at the office (unless birthday celebration).
Quote from: Monoriu on July 21, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
Why are you drinking wine at lunch?
I don't. I don't even drink wine for dinner. I just think the drink list format can be improved as a means to convince people to buy drinks.
Well, in a place like this, unless you're a
wino wine connoisseur or Frasier/Niles Crane, most people will ask the sommelier for advice and recommendations.
I would do the same thing I do with any wine list: color, region, then price.
Quote from: Syt on July 21, 2014, 11:16:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2014, 09:39:35 PM
Quote from: sbr on July 21, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
Why are you drinking wine at lunch?
Why wouldn't one be? :huh:
I only have a half hour lunch break, which is usually not long enough to go to a restaurant. And they frown on drinking at the office (unless birthday celebration).
My lunch break is flexible and while they probably would frown on it - I haven't had any issues at any job if I have a glass at lunch.
Oh, I doubt anyone would raise a stink over it when going for lunch, but I meant drinking within the office's premises.
And yeah, I miss my flexible lunch hours/flexible work hours.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2014, 11:40:24 PM
I would do the same thing I do with any wine list: color, region, then price.
So, a wine list is like a brothel?
Totally different.
I am just at a loss when a waiter asks me what kind of apperitif I would like to have when I sit down at the table. I am the kind of person who is totally dependent on the menu to make choices. If you don't give me the drink list but ask me what I'd like to have, the most I can answer is either tap water or orange juice.
Here's a crazy thought for you Mono: think back to one of those times when they gave you a drink list and you ordered from it, and order the same thing the next time you don't have a drink list.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 22, 2014, 01:47:44 AM
Here's a crazy thought for you Mono: think back to one of those times when they gave you a drink list and you ordered from it, and order the same thing the next time you don't have a drink list.
My problem is I don't remember the names of the drinks :P I eat out 9 times per week, but it is once in a blue moon that I order drinks (usually, it is because I go to an Indian/Thai restaurant and the food is too spicy). The few times I do, my thought process is: look for non-alchoholic cocktails - ok so this one is mainly peach, this one is strawberry, this one is lemon and orange - waiter, I like the strawberry one *points at drink list*
When you don't know what to order, you could always ask the waiter for a suggestion.
Quote from: Zanza on July 22, 2014, 07:23:42 AM
When you don't know what to order, you could always ask the waiter for a suggestion.
I think that's the entire point of the trap. If I ask him, he will surely suggest the most expensive one :hmm:
A good waiter will suggest the one that fits your taste best. From experience, they virtually never suggest the most expensive one and actually try to find one that is fine for you.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 22, 2014, 12:50:45 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2014, 11:40:24 PM
I would do the same thing I do with any wine list: color, region, then price.
So, a wine list is like a brothel?
:lol:
Quote from: Syt on July 21, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
Well, in a place like this, unless you're a wino wine connoisseur or Frasier/Niles Crane, most people will ask the sommelier for advice and recommendations.
For a place like this, you always ask the somm for his thoughts. No matter how much a pro you think you are, the somm is going to know more about their inventory than you.
One thing I don't understand. Why look for the most impressive wine selection at a restaurant? If you want the longest wine list on earth, shouldn't you be checking out the wine supermarkets? :unsure:
Few supermarkets have 60,000 bottles.
And even fewer keep around significant numbers of older vintages.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2014, 09:55:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 21, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
Well, in a place like this, unless you're a wino wine connoisseur or Frasier/Niles Crane, most people will ask the sommelier for advice and recommendations.
For a place like this, you always ask the somm for his thoughts. No matter how much a pro you think you are, the somm is going to know more about their inventory than you.
Well, I wouldn't know, because this is not a place I'm likely to go to. :D
Though there was a collective groan around the table during a business dinner at an upscale Italian restaurant off St. Stephen's Square when our VP finance asked, for all to hear, which cheap wine the waiter would recommend.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 22, 2014, 12:50:45 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2014, 11:40:24 PM
I would do the same thing I do with any wine list: color, region, then price.
So, a wine list is like a brothel?
:lol:
"I'll have the blonde Czech, '95."
"An excellent choice, sir."
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
One thing I don't understand. Why look for the most impressive wine selection at a restaurant? If you want the longest wine list on earth, shouldn't you be checking out the wine supermarkets? :unsure:
Supermarkets are all about turnover. They're not going to keep a bottle of wine in stock for 20 years so they can make an extra hundred bucks off it.
Supermarkets in the North East are a very poor place to buy wine. If they have any, it is very hella* cheap/gross.
*I see you, Seedy. :cool:
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
One thing I don't understand. Why look for the most impressive wine selection at a restaurant? If you want the longest wine list on earth, shouldn't you be checking out the wine supermarkets? :unsure:
Because going to a restaurant with a fine wine list is the only way to get fine wines which have been cellared properly unless you are have the resources to buy the wine and cellar it yourself or you can acquire it from someone other than a restaurant who has done it for you. That later option is really only available if you travel to a vintner who keeps a portion of their in inventory cellared (rare but you can find them normally at the price of an expensive trip) or you have chosen your friends wisely.
Generally if you want a fine wine, going to a restaurant (absent a generous friend with a well stocked cellar) is the least expensive option.
Quote from: garbon on July 22, 2014, 02:21:23 PM
Supermarkets in the North East are a very poor place to buy wine. If they have any, it is very hella* cheap/gross.
*I see you, Seedy. :cool:
Hella good boxxa wine.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2014, 02:40:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 22, 2014, 02:21:23 PM
Supermarkets in the North East are a very poor place to buy wine. If they have any, it is very hella* cheap/gross.
*I see you, Seedy. :cool:
Hella good boxxa wine.
That was so tragic when I was in the UK and one of the British students took us for a meal at his house. His mother cooked a lovely roast but accompanied it with some local Franzia equivalent. :(
Also, my closest supermarket, no box wine. Just some ultra-gross bottle wine. In a weak moment I bought a bottle once. :Embarrass:
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 22, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
One thing I don't understand. Why look for the most impressive wine selection at a restaurant? If you want the longest wine list on earth, shouldn't you be checking out the wine supermarkets? :unsure:
Because going to a restaurant with a fine wine list is the only way to get fine wines which have been cellared properly unless you are have the resources to buy the wine and cellar it yourself or you can acquire it from someone other than a restaurant who has done it for you. That later option is really only available if you travel to a vintner who keeps a portion of their in inventory cellared (rare but you can find them normally at the price of an expensive trip) or you have chosen your friends wisely.
Generally if you want a fine wine, going to a restaurant (absent a generous friend with a well stocked cellar) is the least expensive option.
If you want a vision of the upper middle-class, imagine Crazy Canuck badgering acquaintances for the booze they keep in their basement, he hopes forever.
Quote from: Gups on July 21, 2014, 11:31:01 AMGruner is very "in" over here right now, along with Jura & Galician whites.
Galician? Damn, I could have made a killing in my trip by bringing a few bottles along...
Quote from: Ideologue on July 22, 2014, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 22, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
One thing I don't understand. Why look for the most impressive wine selection at a restaurant? If you want the longest wine list on earth, shouldn't you be checking out the wine supermarkets? :unsure:
Because going to a restaurant with a fine wine list is the only way to get fine wines which have been cellared properly unless you are have the resources to buy the wine and cellar it yourself or you can acquire it from someone other than a restaurant who has done it for you. That later option is really only available if you travel to a vintner who keeps a portion of their in inventory cellared (rare but you can find them normally at the price of an expensive trip) or you have chosen your friends wisely.
Generally if you want a fine wine, going to a restaurant (absent a generous friend with a well stocked cellar) is the least expensive option.
If you want a vision of the upper middle-class, imagine Crazy Canuck badgering acquaintances for the booze they keep in their basement, he hopes forever.
See, this attitude is why you can't be upper middle class - you don't "badger" your acquaintences for their booze, you just subtley challenge them to display their superior taste. :D
Quote from: Malthus on July 22, 2014, 04:01:50 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 22, 2014, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 22, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
One thing I don't understand. Why look for the most impressive wine selection at a restaurant? If you want the longest wine list on earth, shouldn't you be checking out the wine supermarkets? :unsure:
Because going to a restaurant with a fine wine list is the only way to get fine wines which have been cellared properly unless you are have the resources to buy the wine and cellar it yourself or you can acquire it from someone other than a restaurant who has done it for you. That later option is really only available if you travel to a vintner who keeps a portion of their in inventory cellared (rare but you can find them normally at the price of an expensive trip) or you have chosen your friends wisely.
Generally if you want a fine wine, going to a restaurant (absent a generous friend with a well stocked cellar) is the least expensive option.
If you want a vision of the upper middle-class, imagine Crazy Canuck badgering acquaintances for the booze they keep in their basement, he hopes forever.
See, this attitude is why you can't be upper middle class - you don't "badger" your acquaintences for their booze, you just subtley challenge them to display their superior taste. :D
Well, that and he thinks a basement is the same as a wine cellar.
My wife has booked 5-6 michelin-starred restaurants in Bavaria and Alsace in September. Surprisingly there are more such restaurants in Germany than France. I think we'll once again get the funny reactions from the waiters when we ask for tap water :D
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2014, 11:12:55 AM
"I'll have the blonde Czech, '95."
"An excellent choice, sir."
Then they make you wear a rubber tube over your tongue, and you wonder what the point of the whole thing is.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 07:34:41 PM
My wife has booked 5-6 michelin-starred restaurants in Bavaria and Alsace in September. Surprisingly there are more such restaurants in Germany than France. I think we'll once again get the funny reactions from the waiters when we ask for tap water :D
Trust me, the reaction when you go to McDonalds' later to actually fill up after eating calf of hare in clover and a single mussel dipped in the groin sweat of town simpleton, braised in wine will be worth those 600 Euros.
Quote from: Norgy on July 22, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2014, 07:34:41 PM
My wife has booked 5-6 michelin-starred restaurants in Bavaria and Alsace in September. Surprisingly there are more such restaurants in Germany than France. I think we'll once again get the funny reactions from the waiters when we ask for tap water :D
Trust me, the reaction when you go to McDonalds' later to actually fill up after eating calf of hare in clover and a single mussel dipped in the groin sweat of town simpleton, braised in wine will be worth those 600 Euros.
The vast majority of the michelin restaurants that we tried in France tend to serve portions that are on the high side. Our real problem when we went to France 2 years ago was that there was absolutely no stomach space for anything we saw on the road. If we had lunch in such a restaurant, a salad for dinner would be enough. I know what you are talking about though, as many French restaurants in Hong Kong do serve portions that are unreasonably small, and their excuse is that "French cuisine is like that". That lie is for people who have never actually been to France. The same applies to Japan. Most of the michelin restaurants there serve large portions.
The price varies from place to place, but there is no way a single meal will cost E$600 if we don't order drinks. E$100-200 for two is more typical. Of course, if you plan on getting wine, the sky is the limit.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 22, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Because going to a restaurant with a fine wine list is the only way to get fine wines which have been cellared properly unless you are have the resources to buy the wine and cellar it yourself or you can acquire it from someone other than a restaurant who has done it for you. That later option is really only available if you travel to a vintner who keeps a portion of their in inventory cellared (rare but you can find them normally at the price of an expensive trip) or you have chosen your friends wisely.
Generally if you want a fine wine, going to a restaurant (absent a generous friend with a well stocked cellar) is the least expensive option.
Your kidding. You can easily buy fine wine for about half the price that a restauraunt will charge (although in fairness the mark up for fine wine is usually a lot less than for normal wines - 70% to 100% rather than 200-400%). There are loads of wine merchants who will very happily take your business and will deliver by specialist courier perfectly cellared wine to you.
To take a random example
Quote from: Gups on July 23, 2014, 02:52:12 AM
perfectly cellared
Caveat emptor.
And caveat emptor what is in the bottle is what the label says. There has been more 45 mouton or 61 lafite sold then was actually produced and bottled.
Quote from: Gups on July 23, 2014, 02:52:12 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 22, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Because going to a restaurant with a fine wine list is the only way to get fine wines which have been cellared properly unless you are have the resources to buy the wine and cellar it yourself or you can acquire it from someone other than a restaurant who has done it for you. That later option is really only available if you travel to a vintner who keeps a portion of their in inventory cellared (rare but you can find them normally at the price of an expensive trip) or you have chosen your friends wisely.
Generally if you want a fine wine, going to a restaurant (absent a generous friend with a well stocked cellar) is the least expensive option.
Your kidding. You can easily buy fine wine for about half the price that a restauraunt will charge (although in fairness the mark up for fine wine is usually a lot less than for normal wines - 70% to 100% rather than 200-400%). There are loads of wine merchants who will very happily take your business and will deliver by specialist courier perfectly cellared wine to you.
To take a random example
Of course you can go to a liquor store to pick up a bottle of good wine but normally you are buying a bottle from recent production depending upon how long the vintner lets the wine age in barrels or after bottling before releasing it for sale.
If you have found a wine merchant who as access to any bottle you wish to purchase then that is remarkable and perhaps too good to be true.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 23, 2014, 02:52:12 AM
perfectly cellared
Caveat emptor.
And caveat emptor what is in the bottle is what the label says. There has been more 45 mouton or 61 lafite sold then was actually produced and bottled.
None of the wine merchants I deal with operate caveat empor. They will happily refund even if I just don't like the wine I've bought. Of course , we are talking £10-£30 bottles here, so I don't know what the approach would be for a Petrus or whatever, but I imagine that theer would be similar issues with a restauraunt.
Of course you can go to a liquor store to pick up a bottle of good wine but normally you are buying a bottle from recent production depending upon how long the vintner lets the wine age in barrels or after bottling before releasing it for sale.
If you have found a wine merchant who as access to any bottle you wish to purchase then that is remarkable and perhaps too good to be true.
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I don't really follow. No restuaraunt has access to any bottle you'd wish to purchase either.
Any large wine merchant will have at least as comprehensive a list as the Austrian restauraunt.
Quote from: Gups on July 23, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
None of the wine merchants I deal with operate caveat empor. They will happily refund even if I just don't like the wine I've bought. Of course , we are talking £10-£30 bottles here, so I don't know what the approach would be for a Petrus or whatever, but I imagine that theer would be similar issues with a restauraunt.
Unless the merchant has their own cellar they will have acquired the bottle from a collector so CE really applies. Same in the auction market which I find terrifying. I don't think its typical to refund in those circumstances but I've never been a buyer for these kinds of bottles other a couple bottles of vintage port, where cellaring issues are not as big a concern.
An advantage of a long-standing restaurant with its own cellar like this Austrian hotel is that there is somewhat more assurance as to the cellaring conditions and probably provenance (since presumably the restaurant bought on release).
Also a restaurant will always take back a bad bottle.
Most impressive wine list I ever saw was in this fancy restaurant near Mont Tremblant in Quebec.
The funny part is that my wife and I were off-road biking on some trails when we saw this place - it was a mansion in a country setting near a public park. We were starving, but also, we were covered in mud and wearing dingy clothes to begin with.
Well, we decided to take a chance and inquired as to whether the place had a dress code. They did not, and had no objections to us as customers. We washed up as best we could in their washroom and sat for dinner.
The funny part was, this turned out to be a serious fancy restaurant - far more expensive than I would normally choose. Also, the entire clientele was elderly and in formal wear. We stood out.
On the other hand, the service we got could not have been more attentive and friendly. Their wine list was as thick as a telephone book (or so it seemed), but the special wine guy (sommelier?) must have spend ten minutes figuring out our tastes and choosing the wine for us - which was, in fact, excellent, and not the most expensive (though not cheap either). I think he was just happy to see someone under 70.
There were wines on that list for thousands of dollars ... I asked the guy if anyone ever ordered those: he said they did, generally for special occasions.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 10:15:06 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 23, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
None of the wine merchants I deal with operate caveat empor. They will happily refund even if I just don't like the wine I've bought. Of course , we are talking £10-£30 bottles here, so I don't know what the approach would be for a Petrus or whatever, but I imagine that theer would be similar issues with a restauraunt.
Unless the merchant has their own cellar they will have acquired the bottle from a collector so CE really applies. Same in the auction market which I find terrifying. I don't think its typical to refund in those circumstances but I've never been a buyer for these kinds of bottles other a couple bottles of vintage port, where cellaring issues are not as big a concern.
An advantage of a long-standing restaurant with its own cellar like this Austrian hotel is that there is somewhat more assurance as to the cellaring conditions and probably provenance (since presumably the restaurant bought on release).
Also a restaurant will always take back a bad bottle.
Merchants must operate differently in the States to the UK then. I deal with four merchants on a reasonably regular basis and they all have returns policies along these lines (from Berry Bros):
QuoteWe are committed to providing our customers with an unsurpassed level of service and are equally committed to ensuring we provide a safe and legal product. If a wine is corked or faulty we will offer a replacement or credit on the return of the bottle in question. Many wines are sold to drink young so we offer a simple drinking guide to help clarify the optimum drinking time of all our wines. If a wine has been kept too long or stored inappropriately, we may not be able to offer a refund. If you believe a wine to be faulty please contact us on 0800 280 2440 or email us at [email protected] and we will be happy to make arrangements to have the wine collected and tested.
They do all have cellars, so that may make a difference
Some of the old-time UK merchants do have big proper cellars; that isn't always the case here.
Quote from: Gups on July 23, 2014, 10:07:28 AM
I don't really follow. No restuaraunt has access to any bottle you'd wish to purchase either.
Any large wine merchant will have at least as comprehensive a list as the Austrian restauraunt.
As to the first point, we are talking about a restaurant that has the most impressive list. Of course you are more likely to find a bottle in their cellar than at a wine merchant. Because, of course, no merchant actually has their own wine cellar.
As to the second point you are using the term "list" in two very different ways. The Austrian restaurant has a list of the wine they have in their cellar and which you can be reasonably assured is what they say it is and has been properly cellared.
The usual wine merchant has a list of suppliers from whom they might acquire wine and it almost certainly does not contain wine that has been cellared for as long as the wines in the restaruant's cellar - and if you believe the opposite then you are much more trusting than I am.
It may be that the merchants's you deal with have their own cellars. If that is true then you are very lucky.
OK, it does sound different. As I say, all decent wine merchants here have their own cellars in which they keep thier stock. They all offer cellaring services for customers buyin en primeur.
The cellaring services are potentially risky. I recall there being a scandal about one of the UK based ones. Also here in NY a bunch of people got screwed when the cellar got flooded by Sandy and many of the bottles lost their labels.
Feel perfectly safe as far as my small cache of claret is concerned. The wines are fully insured and I can't believe teh merchant is going to throw away a reputation built over 250 years by stiffing me.
Quote from: Malthus on July 23, 2014, 10:23:32 AM
The funny part was, this turned out to be a serious fancy restaurant - far more expensive than I would normally choose. Also, the entire clientele was elderly and in formal wear. We stood out.
I am so used to this that I don't care anymore. When we go to the michelin restaurants in Europe, we are usually in our polo shirts, and everybody else are in their suits and ties. My wife used to feel uneasy. Now we just eat.
I wonder how long it will be before people can produce products that perfectly immitate old wines.
They do seem to be a bit of an oddity in todays world.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 10:45:36 AM
Some of the old-time UK merchants do have big proper cellars; that isn't always the case here.
I found one once that was massive indeed. Unfortunately it was also filled with monsters. Then below the cellar were three levels of comically enormous sewers that led to an iron gate that led to a tower of an evil wizard that had encased the city in eternal winter. I am not sure those were perfectly ideal storage conditions, I could never figure out how to actually find the wine.