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http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2460950,00.asp

QuoteTesla's $35K Model 3 Targets BMW 3 Series

By Jamie Lendino 
July 16, 2014 11:25am EST
43 Comments

The $35,000 Model 3 Tesla could change everything for the auto industry—if CEO Elon Musk can pull it off.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has confirmed an Auto Express UK report that the company's next car after the Model X SUV (pictured above) will be called the Model 3 and retail for $35,000.

That puts it well under the luxury-focused Model S, which starts at $69,900 and usually sells in the $80,000 to $90,000 range, depending on options and trim level. If the Model 3 (pictured below in mock-ups created by Auto Express) is as good as the company's previous cars, automakers should be very concerned—especially established stalwarts like BMW and Mercedes.

The biggest issue with electric cars is range. But like other Tesla vehicles, the Model 3 could render it a non-issue in most circumstances. Musk claims the Model 3 will travel over 200 miles on a single charge. Tesla has already pulled this off twice before: first with the now-defunct Roadster, and again with the top three tiers of the Model S sedan (the company has since discontinued the base model, which got 160 miles of range).

So there's no question the company has the technology. There's also no question the company's cars perform; the now-defunct Tesla Roadster did 0-60 in just over four seconds, while the Model S does it in under six. And both are capable handlers.

The real question is, can Tesla build and sell a 200-mile electric car at $35,000 profitably? If it can, it would significantly impact the auto industry. A smaller, $35,000 companion to the Model S would position the Model 3 against a slew of so-called near-luxury cars—most notably the BMW 3 Series, as well as the Audi A3 and Audi A4, the Mercedes C-Class, the Lexus IS 250, and new Acura TLX.

That's still not quite mainstream vehicle territory—the average sale price of a car in 2014 in the U.S. is roughly $31,000, and most mainstream sedans sell in the $25,000 range. Think either loaded Civics and Ford Focuses, or modestly equipped Accords and Camrys. But it's within striking distance, and not at all unreasonable for such a technology-infused vehicle.

Range is the Key for EVs
I've been negative about electric cars from the beginning, and it's always been about range. The environmental benefits are tremendous; there's no doubt of that, and even car enthusiasts can't complain given the speed of the Model S. But most electric cars, like the Nissan Leaf, the Ford Focus EV, and the Honda Fit EV, have less than 100 miles of realistic range, and all of them take hours to charge up.

When you have less than 100 miles of range, you have either a commuter car for city-bound folk that can somehow also afford a house with a garage to charge the car in, or you have a second or third car for everyone else at best—which means it's essentially a luxury proposition for the upper middle class and higher. If you can't fuel up in five minutes and keep driving, you can't use it for longer-distance trips unless you're on vacation, and don't mind hanging out near a charging station for large portions of the drive.

Tesla's cars are exceptions, and have been total proof of concepts for an EV-based world. But they're also heinously expensive. Once you have a reasonably priced EV that also has several hundred miles of range, the potential market for it skyrockets in size. (GM didn't see that success with the Chevy Volt, but it's not a pure electric car, and for $40,000 it's not the least bit luxurious or special otherwise.) You still can't easily take long trips with one, but you can use it for all sorts of other things. (Tesla is even deploying supercharging stations that can charge the battery in an hour, although that's still about 55 minutes too long in a country with such a huge land mass and entrenched car culture.)


A $35,000 Tesla would be an entirely different proposition than the Model S in terms of mainstream adoption. Plus, Tesla already has cachet; in a fairly short time of less than a decade, the company has built some serious brand equity. It's a status symbol, and it already has a rabid fan base. Elon Musk has also pulled off some incredible PR moves recently, including a $1 million donation to The Oatmeal's Tesla museum, and its ongoing war with regularly scheduled maintenance and the antiquated, lobbyist-supported car dealership model that needs to die a quick death.

Tesla is targeting 2016 as an official unveiling for the Model 3 before it goes on sale in 2017. That's plenty of room for what is now vaporware to come to market, even for cars, which traditionally have development cycles on the order of three to five years. Let's hope Tesla can pull this one off.


For more, watch PCMag Live in the video below, which discusses the Tesla Model 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxeRdTkALUE

That's pretty cool.

I've pretty much already decided that if and when I get to a point in my life to buy a status car, it's going to be a Tesla. Of course, things can change between now and whenever that is, but a $35k (though likely more in Canada) Tesla makes it more likely (though a bit less status than the model S, obviously).

There is no way I will spend that kind of money on an unproven technology. 

I test drove one a little over a week ago.  They were neat, but you're definitely paying for the electric part of the car with the high price tag, not the luxury portion.  Feel every bump, interior isn't greatly comfortable, has a plastic feel.


It was nice and all, but not for a $100k car......  Was pretty disappointed to be honest.   :unsure:

Quote from: Alcibiades on July 16, 2014, 09:08:48 PM
I test drove one a little over a week ago.  They were neat, but you're definitely paying for the electric part of the car with the high price tag, not the luxury portion.  Feel every bump, interior isn't greatly comfortable, has a plastic feel.

It was nice and all, but not for a $100k car......  Was pretty disappointed to be honest.   :unsure:

I'll grant the plastic feel, but it's marketed as a sports car more than a luxury car, so it's a pet peeve of mine when people automatically complain about an expensive car not being luxurious enough- especially when it's been designed for performance more than comfort.

Finding a place to charge the electric car is going to be a huge nightmare.  Deal-breaker, even. 

US$40k is pretty close to the limit of how much I can spend on a car.  That really punches a hole in the balance sheet.  Can't imagine someone spending US$100k on a car. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:23:28 PM
US$40k is pretty close to the limit of how much I can spend on a car.  That really punches a hole in the balance sheet.  Can't imagine someone spending US$100k on a car.

I can, it just takes a little practice.

Quote from: DGuller on July 16, 2014, 09:26:27 PM

I can, it just takes a little practice.

:worship: I'll send a sub-hyper space message to tell me in my next life to become an actuary.

Hell, I'll likely drop 60k on the new Challenger SRT Hellcat.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:06:18 PM
There is no way I will spend that kind of money on an unproven technology.

They sold 22,477 in North America and Europe last year and was named car of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Sales_and_markets

How is it unproven?

I don't think I would want a car that is only claimed to go 200 miles on one charge. That'd eliminate most of the times I use my car.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:23:28 PM
Finding a place to charge the electric car is going to be a huge nightmare.  Deal-breaker, even. 

US$40k is pretty close to the limit of how much I can spend on a car.  That really punches a hole in the balance sheet.  Can't imagine someone spending US$100k on a car.

Good thing this model will only cost $35k.

A city like Hong Kong is the perfect enviornment for an electirc car. You can't drive more than 200 miles in one go and finding a charging station will be much easier than it would be in a rural area.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 09:39:44 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:06:18 PM
There is no way I will spend that kind of money on an unproven technology.

They sold 22,477 in North America and Europe last year and was named car of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Sales_and_markets

How is it unproven?

There has to be a reason why the vast majority of the cars still run on petroleum.  Besides, how many cars did they sell in Hong Kong in the past, say, 5 years?  I have a vague suspicion that the number is something close to zero. 

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 09:44:00 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:23:28 PM
Finding a place to charge the electric car is going to be a huge nightmare.  Deal-breaker, even. 

US$40k is pretty close to the limit of how much I can spend on a car.  That really punches a hole in the balance sheet.  Can't imagine someone spending US$100k on a car.

Good thing this model will only cost $35k.

A city like Hong Kong is the perfect enviornment for an electirc car. You can't drive more than 200 miles in one go and finding a charging station will be much easier than it would be in a rural area.

I can probably get a much better car for the same price. 

A city like Hong Kong is very unsuitable for electric cars, because there is no space to build the charging stations. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:44:58 PM
There has to be a reason why the vast majority of the cars still run on petroleum.  Besides, how many cars did they sell in Hong Kong in the past, say, 5 years?  I have a vague suspicion that the number is something close to zero. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-04/tesla-says-sales-in-europe-asia-to-top-north-america-s-in-2014.html

As for why we're still running on petroleum?  The article itself says the tech's proven, but the price point is still too high.  And given the monolithic scale of companies like Exxon, BP, etc., that's a lot of inertia to overcome.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:46:05 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 09:44:00 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:23:28 PM
Finding a place to charge the electric car is going to be a huge nightmare.  Deal-breaker, even. 

US$40k is pretty close to the limit of how much I can spend on a car.  That really punches a hole in the balance sheet.  Can't imagine someone spending US$100k on a car.

Good thing this model will only cost $35k.

A city like Hong Kong is the perfect enviornment for an electirc car. You can't drive more than 200 miles in one go and finding a charging station will be much easier than it would be in a rural area.

I can probably get a much better car for the same price. 

A city like Hong Kong is very unsuitable for electric cars, because there is no space to build the charging stations.

They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM


They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car? 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:51:54 PM

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM


They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car? 

Quick search says 3.5 hours for Tesla Roadster and 8 hours for Nissan Leaf.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:44:58 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 09:39:44 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:06:18 PM
There is no way I will spend that kind of money on an unproven technology.

They sold 22,477 in North America and Europe last year and was named car of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Sales_and_markets

How is it unproven?

There has to be a reason why the vast majority of the cars still run on petroleum.  Besides, how many cars did they sell in Hong Kong in the past, say, 5 years?  I have a vague suspicion that the number is something close to zero.

Are you being purposefully dense? That's like asking in 1905 why most people still ride horses if cars are so great.

The electric car is the wave of the future and in 10-15 years they'll be dominant.

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 09:53:53 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:51:54 PM

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM


They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car? 

Quick search says 3.5 hours for Tesla Roadster and 8 hours for Nissan Leaf.

Then it is absolutely out of the question to install the rechargers in a petroleum station.  All petroleum stations in HK are full service ones - because they need to ensure that each car only takes 5-10 minutes to refuel.  There is no space to let a car stay in a petroleum station for hours.  In this case, the only way this will work is if they install individual chargers in all carparks, not at the petroleum station.  Good luck with that.  None of the multi-storey carparks built so far have taken space for rechargers into consideration. 

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 09:53:53 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:51:54 PM

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM


They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car? 

Quick search says 3.5 hours for Tesla Roadster and 8 hours for Nissan Leaf.

The article I posted said that they were installing new stations that will charge a car in an hour.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:59:49 PM

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 09:53:53 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:51:54 PM

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM


They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car? 

Quick search says 3.5 hours for Tesla Roadster and 8 hours for Nissan Leaf.

Then it is absolutely out of the question to install the rechargers in a petroleum station.  All petroleum stations in HK are full service ones - because they need to ensure that each car only takes 5-10 minutes to refuel.  There is no space to let a car stay in a petroleum station for hours.  In this case, the only way this will work is if they install individual chargers in all carparks, not at the petroleum station.  Good luck with that.  None of the multi-storey carparks built so far have taken space for rechargers into consideration. 

More searching says there are quick charge stations that can get Leaf to 80% in 30 minutes.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 10:03:09 PM

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 09:53:53 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:51:54 PM

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM


They take up about the same space as an air pump.  It's easy enough to add to existing gas stations.  It's just electricity, just like you have in your house.  It isn't some space age new power source.

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car? 

Quick search says 3.5 hours for Tesla Roadster and 8 hours for Nissan Leaf.

The article I posted said that they were installing new stations that will charge a car in an hour.

I don't read your articles. :huh:

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:51:54 PM

How long does it take to fully charge an electric car?

It depends, if it's plugged into household current (depending on configuration) anywhere from 5-62 miles per hour of charge.  The supercharging stations can get you fully charged in 30 minutes (with ~70% charged in 20 minutes).

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 10:04:19 PM


More searching says there are quick charge stations that can get Leaf to 80% in 30 minutes.

Still far too long.  A typical petroleum station in Hong Kong has about four pumps in two lanes.  Unless the first car in each lane leaves the station, all the cars in the same lane will have to wait.  30 minutes for each recharge session is impractical.  Imagine if you are the 4th car in line waiting.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 10:09:23 PM

Still far too long.  A typical petroleum station in Hong Kong has about four pumps in two lanes.  Unless the first car in each lane leaves the station, all the cars in the same lane will have to wait.  30 minutes for each recharge session is impractical.  Imagine if you are the 4th car in line waiting.

I'm assuming most people in Hong Kong aren't driving more than 200 miles each day, so they should be able to get a regular household line to the car and charge it overnight.  No need to go to the station.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 09:58:45 PM


Are you being purposefully dense? That's like asking in 1905 why most people still ride horses if cars are so great.

The electric car is the wave of the future and in 10-15 years they'll be dominant.

A car is obviously much better than a horse.  So there is incentive to build the necessary infrastructure to support cars.   

An electric car isn't that much better than a car that runs on petroleum.  In many aspects, it is probably worse.  I already have very little incentive to buy one.  And I certainly don't see people building the infrastructure necessary to support electric cars, because it isn't like there is anything wrong with petroleum cars.  There is a chicken and egg problem there.  Unless there is a critical mass of electric cars, nobody is going to build the infrastructure.  But if there is no infrastructure, nobody is going to buy the cars. 

Quote from: frunk on July 16, 2014, 10:20:03 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 10:09:23 PM

Still far too long.  A typical petroleum station in Hong Kong has about four pumps in two lanes.  Unless the first car in each lane leaves the station, all the cars in the same lane will have to wait.  30 minutes for each recharge session is impractical.  Imagine if you are the 4th car in line waiting.

I'm assuming most people in Hong Kong aren't driving more than 200 miles each day, so they should be able to get a regular household line to the car and charge it overnight.  No need to go to the station.

I don't think you understand what a typical carpark in Hong Kong looks like.  We don't live in houses, so we don't have garages.  We live in housing estates, and there can be 20,000 people in 8 buildings.  We park our cars in large underground or multi-storey carparks.  Like your mall carparks but they are indoor.  You can't just add the chargers there, because there is no space to put them.  The carparks aren't built with the chargers in mind. 

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2FthCAX4C5Y9_zps3363c0e7.jpg&hash=f892553a701930aae2029c26b10707d673c4d702) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/thCAX4C5Y9_zps3363c0e7.jpg.html)

Like this.  This is how most people park our cars overnight in Hong Kong, only indoor and more congested.  They want to introduce electric cars in HK?  Either figure out a way to install chargers and wires and machines in the above set up, or shorten the recharging times to 10 minutes so that they can install the chargers at the petroleum stations. 

How can you stand to live in such tightly packed space, Mono?

Quote from: Jaron on July 16, 2014, 10:36:22 PM
How can you stand to live in such tightly packed space, Mono?

7 million others can stand to live here, so it isn't like I am alone.  I also don't think I have a real choice on this matter. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 10:55:36 PM

Quote from: Jaron on July 16, 2014, 10:36:22 PM
How can you stand to live in such tightly packed space, Mono?

7 million others can stand to live here, so it isn't like I am alone.  I also don't think I have a real choice on this matter. 

That's not really an answer.

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 11:01:12 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 10:55:36 PM

Quote from: Jaron on July 16, 2014, 10:36:22 PM
How can you stand to live in such tightly packed space, Mono?

7 million others can stand to live here, so it isn't like I am alone.  I also don't think I have a real choice on this matter. 

That's not really an answer.

I didn't elaborate for fear of starting round #45 of the argument on why I can't find a job in Canada  :lol:  But here it goes: it is either live in a tightly packed space in HK with a job, or sleep on the streets in Canada.  Presumably I'll get more space with the latter option  ;)

I didn't realize those were the only places on Earth. :(

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 11:17:34 PM
I didn't realize those were the only places on Earth. :(

I don't have the time or resources to test my employability in every corner of the earth.  And the list of places that recognise my very limited educational qualifications and experience is extremely short.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that I can't get employed in Japan, Africa or Europe. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 11:23:01 PM

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 11:17:34 PM
I didn't realize those were the only places on Earth. :(

I don't have the time or resources to test my employability in every corner of the earth.  And the list of places that recognise my very limited educational qualifications and experience is extremely short.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that I can't get employed in Japan, Africa or Europe. 

I don't know. Individuals who seem stupider than you seem to manage all the time.

Anyway, the discussion was about how can you stand being a pod person. :P

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2014, 11:25:54 PM


I don't know. Individuals who seem stupider than you seem to manage all the time.

Anyway, the discussion was about how can you stand being a pod person. :P

Different people have different qualifications.  A Stanford degree probably works anywhere in the world  :P

I have already answered that question.  I don't have a choice.  This is the only place on earth where I can find work to feed myself. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 10:21:16 PM

A car is obviously much better than a horse.  So there is incentive to build the necessary infrastructure to support cars.   

An electric car isn't that much better than a car that runs on petroleum.  In many aspects, it is probably worse.  I already have very little incentive to buy one.  And I certainly don't see people building the infrastructure necessary to support electric cars, because it isn't like there is anything wrong with petroleum cars.  There is a chicken and egg problem there.  Unless there is a critical mass of electric cars, nobody is going to build the infrastructure.  But if there is no infrastructure, nobody is going to buy the cars.

Already on its way
http://gizmodo.com/why-teslas-model-3-could-be-the-most-important-electric-1605923541

QuoteTesla's next electric car officially has a name: The Model 3. It seems like an all-around average sedan, no crazy up-swinging falcon doors or other outlandishness. Even the $35,000 price is pedestrian. It's also what could make it as important to automotive history as the Model T.

To understand why that price tag is such a game-changer, you don't need to look much further than Tesla's current lineup: a two-seat convertible for $100,000, and a luxury sedan for $70,000. These are niche vehicles with limited markets, and while Tesla has exceeded its own sales targets for the less pricey Model S, that still only amounts to a paltry 23,000 cars sold in 2013. Toyota, by contrast, sold that many Camrys in the US in the first 20 days of last year.

But a $35,000 Tesla? That's Toyota Avalon or Chevy Impala money. A sub-40k car isn't a plaything for George Clooney; it's a daily driver your kid's basketball coach could buy. And it knocks down the last, most difficult hurdle that's prevented electric cars from truly hitting the mainstream.
Building a Grid

But wait! you say. The Nissan Leaf prices in the mid-twenties. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV compares favorably on price to a carton of smokes. You're right, of course. But you're forgetting about one crucial point: infrastructure.

How do you charge a Leaf or a i-MiEV? You plug it into your garage, or, if you live in a progressive city and the parking gods are smiling, you juice up at a charger-equipped parking spot. There aren't a whole lot of those around, and with both the Leaf and the i-MiEV averaging sub-100-mile battery range, you're stuck pretty close to home.

Truthfully, that's perfectly acceptable for 90 percent of the driving that 90 percent of Americans do. But that invisible extension cord feels mighty short when your neighbor's gas hog can cruise back and forth across the country as many times as its driver can afford. The Model 3, meanwhile, has an range of more than twice what its low-cost competitors can achieve.

Tesla drivers don't quite have the same ubiquitous network as drivers of dino-juice cars, but that's changing. Tesla currently has 102 Supercharger stations across North America, where drivers can top up their batteries in around 20 minutes, for free. The company promises to cover 80 percent of the U.S. population by the end of this year. Tesla drivers have completed coast-to-coast road trips by strategically stringing together Supercharger locations. It takes some serious planning, but it's possible—and a lot more convenient than finding somewhere to charge your Leaf or i-MiEV overnight every 100 miles.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--e8pgn8St--%2Fc_fit%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_80%2Cw_636%2Fcfbr8md5y3h85vtl9sqx.jpg&hash=93b357a3a0e1ef5fa05b656ad2e008218a5760b1)

Now imagine that, instead of selling a few thousand expensive luxury sedans every year, Tesla sold tens of thousands of electric cars that regular folks can afford. Electric cars with a 200-mile range that do the same job as a Honda Accord or Volkswagen Passat, that you can charge up at a nearby Supercharger station for free. That makes electric cars a lot more compelling to the average buyer—and gives Tesla even more reason to start filling in those bare zones on the Supercharger map.

Not to mention that, with Tesla opening up its patented battery tech to anyone who wants it, you might someday be able to charge that future electric Honda or VW or whatever at a Supercharger station. Plenty of Supercharger customers, and plenty of reasons to build one on every street corner and off-ramp in America.
An Electric Car That Doesn't Look Like an Appliance

In the automotive world, style is just as important as infrastructure. American buyers shun practicality when it comes in a plain, no-attitude wrapper; the 20-year popularity of SUVs was built almost entirely on fear of the minivan's emasculating effects. How does that affect electric cars? Just look: the Nissan Leaf resembles an overgrown dust buster, and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV looks like a damned golf cart when parked alongside the average American grocery-getter.

Compare those rolling cough drops to the alleged Model 3 renders published by Auto Express. Even if the real Model 3 doesn't look exactly like those images, it's sure to have the same kind of Tesla design language you see here. That sultry, delicious design language.

Fit To a T

It's no coincidence how Tesla timed this. First it brought out the Roadster, a fast but somewhat shoddy first attempt at an electric car. Next came the Model S: refined and well-developed enough that both Motor Trend and Automobile Magazine named it 2013's car of the year. All the while, Tesla built an infrastructure of charging stations that made these expensive machines more real-world friendly.

Now the foundation has been laid. The infrastructure is sound and expanding. The brand is universally known, an American success story helmed by a geek-culture hero with larger-than-life pockets. Tesla is poised to go from a household name to an appliance in every household, and the Model 3 is how that happens.

Cranking out commuter cars for the stable middle class doesn't seem like a rockstar move when you're building rockets and picking out grave sites on Mars. But Musk knows that an affordable, practical electric car will do for 21st century motoring what Henry Ford's affordable, practical gasoline-powered car did for 20th century roads.

The similarities to the Model T are worth pointing out. Ford didn't invent the car, and by 1908 when the first Model T rolled off the assembly line, four-wheeled horseless carriages were well known. But those cars were unattainably costly for average folk, and roads were still built to convey horses and carriages. The few cars that did ply America's byways were powered by anything from gasoline to electricity or even steam.

Fast forward to 1927: the last Model T rolls out of the Dearborn, Michigan plant, into a world where roads are designed for automobiles and gasoline flows from roadside pumps across the land. There's plenty of competition among makers of affordable cars—competition that sprang up in response to Ford and the Model T.

Our grandkids will still learn about the Model T, how it permanently changed the way America looked and functioned. But I'm betting they'll also learn about another car, one associated with the seismic shift that turned us away from dinosaur-powered vehicles. I'm betting they'll be talking about the Model 3.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 10:24:54 PM
I don't think you understand what a typical carpark in Hong Kong looks like.  We don't live in houses, so we don't have garages.  We live in housing estates, and there can be 20,000 people in 8 buildings.  We park our cars in large underground or multi-storey carparks.  Like your mall carparks but they are indoor.  You can't just add the chargers there, because there is no space to put them.  The carparks aren't built with the chargers in mind. 

If the carparks are underground, they must have some form of lighting.  I'd assume that they're electric lights, not torches or oil lamps or the like.  So the carparks are already wired for electricity, so all you have to do is put a plug-in at each parking space, and then as frunk said, you can charge your car overnight while you sleep, so it doesn't really matter that it takes a while that way..  Granted, installing all those plug-ins would be a pretty big job, but it's just like adding another electric outlet in any other building--not fundamentally a difficult task.

Granted, a housing estate isn't going to have any incentive to do that if nobody living there has an electric car, or even if just a few residents have them.  But Hong Kong isn't the whole world, and I doubt any car maker is designing their vehicles primarily for the HK market.  Once enough people world-wide are driving electrics, sales will be high enough that economies of scale will kick in, and you won't have to pay such a big premium over a comparable gas-powered car.  At that point, even in HK, people will want the option of buying an electric, and the housing estates will have to accomodate them.

They are going to go from 102 stations to covering 80% of the US population in 5 months? :huh:

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 16, 2014, 11:30:13 PM

Already on its way

Of course, most of the problems that I mentioned above probably don't apply to most places in North America or Europe, where space is less of a concern.  But I assume that one of the major incentives of switching to electric cars is to reduce CO2 emissions and combat global warming?  In that case, I am not sure if it makes sense to forget that Asian large cities exist. 

One thing you'd like Mono, from the last article Tim posted, recharging your Tesla at the supercharger station is apparently free. That's a lot cheaper than paying for gas.

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 12:54:28 AM
One thing you'd like Mono, from the last article Tim posted, recharging your Tesla at the supercharger station is apparently free. That's a lot cheaper than paying for gas.

Well, I pay around US$50 per week on petroleum.  That however is a very small portion of the total cost of owning and operating the vehicle.  Tunnel toll, taxes, insurance, maintenance and above all, rental of the parking space are a lot more expensive.   Monthly rental of a carparking space is US$500 already.  Tunnel toll is US$300 per month.  The fact that recharging doesn't cost money is nice, but it isn't enough to tip the scales toward electric. 

I also have doubts if it will continue to be free.  It costs money to operate those stations.  Right now, Tesla has an incentive to offer free recharging, but that dynamic may change in the future. 

How much are your apartments? 500/month almost gets you an apartment here (in Utah). :P

Quote from: Jaron on July 17, 2014, 01:24:44 AM
How much are your apartments? 500/month almost gets you an apartment here (in Utah). :P

:huh: You can't compare monthly rental of a carparking space with the purchase cost of a flat.

Oh, do people not usually rent in HK?

Quote from: Jaron on July 17, 2014, 01:28:16 AM
Oh, do people not usually rent in HK?

At least I don't.

Quote from: Jaron on July 17, 2014, 01:24:44 AM
How much are your apartments? 500/month almost gets you an apartment here (in Utah). :P

:yes:

It boggles the mind that someone who claims to be as cheap as Mono does would choose to live in a major city like Hong Kong.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 17, 2014, 01:47:07 AM

Quote from: Jaron on July 17, 2014, 01:24:44 AM
How much are your apartments? 500/month almost gets you an apartment here (in Utah). :P

:yes:

It boggles the mind that someone who claims to be as cheap as Mono does would choose to live in a major city like Hong Kong.

I grow up here.  I am educated here.  My entire upbringing is designed for a career here.  Somebody here made the grave mistake of hiring me.  I couldn't find a job in Canada, so I moved back.  I don't really choose to live here. 

It will be interesting to see how Tesla develops. Recently their sales stagnated despite the extremely posivite PR they get. I am sure they'll be able to ramp up production, but it will be interesting to see if they can do so and stay profitable. Once they move from a niché brand to a mainstream brand, it will also be interesting to see how they square their direct sales model with repair/warranty work.

At least their PR is world-class as they get all the press when others actually sell more electric cars in the US:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freneweconomy.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2Fchart-1.png&hash=337e8fd3f88920267917ca995c7f5c6421e682eb)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freneweconomy.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2Fchart-3.png&hash=14cede69c74945af836221889a09fb43f66adeed)

I am a regular driver of electric cars in a city and it's perfect for cities. Much better than a gasoline car.

I think Hong Kong would be perfect for electric cars. Installing charging stations should definitely be feasible from what I saw. The sheer concentration actually makes it easier to install such infrastructure compared to the spread out suburban sprawl in the US.

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 01:59:49 AM
I am a regular driver of electric cars in a city and it's perfect for cities. Much better than a gasoline car.

I think Hong Kong would be perfect for electric cars. Installing charging stations should definitely be feasible from what I saw. The sheer concentration actually makes it easier to install such infrastructure compared to the spread out suburban sprawl in the US.

I'd like to hear your take on why it hasn't happened yet  :)

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:04:26 AM
I'd like to hear your take on why it hasn't happened yet  :)

Because the technology is only developed and deployed just now? There are quite a few electric vehicles from Chinese manufacturers (e.g. BYD) either already in the market or at least in the pipeline. The central government in Beijing is heavily pushing electric vehicles. Earlier or later, they'll push it in Hong Kong as well. Give it five to ten more years.

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 02:15:55 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:04:26 AM
I'd like to hear your take on why it hasn't happened yet  :)

Because the technology is only developed and deployed just now? There are quite a few electric vehicles from Chinese manufacturers (e.g. BYD) either already in the market or at least in the pipeline. The central government in Beijing is heavily pushing electric vehicles. Earlier or later, they'll push it in Hong Kong as well. Give it five to ten more years.

http://hub.hku.hk/handle/10722/174585

QuoteWhen asking a question who killed Electric Car (EV) in USA? Most American treated car manufacture and Oil Company was the murderer who killed the growth of EV. However, it is not the case in Hong Kong. This research found the major obstacles for promoting Electric Car in Hong Kong are: Lack of home EV charger, outstanding high price of EV and legal dispute for using EV on the high way. Surprisingly, property management company and owner committee were identified as the killer of EV in Hong Kong, as most drivers expressed that their property management company and owner committee would suspend the installation of EV charger at residential building which turn down their interest to buy an EV. In this research, 100 drivers were interviewed for their opinion toward the EV development in Hong Kong. Also, the managing director Mr. Lawrence Chan and the EV Hotline Centre manager, Mr. C.Y. Luk from Electrical and Mechanical Services Department (EMSD) were also interviewed for this topic.

This guy is not impressed by the resistance of property managers and home owners:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02577%2FXi-Jinping-_2577816b.jpg&hash=30d09c6ad2cf0ab822bdd5b3c48b3bfae4e00f16)

If they want to push it, they'll just make the installation of chargers mandatory.

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 01:55:59 AM
At least their PR is world-class as they get all the press when others actually sell more electric cars in the US:

A lot of those are hybrids, which although interesting strike me as combining most of the drawbacks of gas and electric with not enough of the benefits of either one.

I am not surprised that the management companies won't allow the installation of chargers in carparks.  Cars in HK are parked bumper to bumper.  If you buy a carparking space, you only purchase the rights within that rectangle.  No more.  But if you install a charger there, you have to have cables of some sort.  That is occupying other people's property.  Unless you have a wireless electricity connection ( :D). 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
I am not surprised that the management companies won't allow the installation of chargers in carparks.  Cars in HK are parked bumper to bumper.  If you buy a carparking space, you only purchase the rights within that rectangle.  No more.  But if you install a charger there, you have to have cables of some sort.  That is occupying other people's property.  Unless you can have a wireless electricity connection ( :D).

You don't need a charger, all you need is a wall socket, like you have in your house.

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 02:39:54 AM


If they want to push it, they'll just make the installation of chargers mandatory.

Contrary to popular belief, the communists aren't omnipowerful.  They have to pick their battles, and I can't imagine electric cars being terribly high on their agenda.  Even if they make it mandatory, I doubt if they can really enforce it.  I am sure there is a mandatory requirement that all milk sold in China must be safe for consumption, but reality is kinda different. 

And their mandatory requirements don't apply to HK. 

Quote from: frunk on July 17, 2014, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
I am not surprised that the management companies won't allow the installation of chargers in carparks.  Cars in HK are parked bumper to bumper.  If you buy a carparking space, you only purchase the rights within that rectangle.  No more.  But if you install a charger there, you have to have cables of some sort.  That is occupying other people's property.  Unless you can have a wireless electricity connection ( :D).

You don't need a charger, all you need is a wall socket, like you have in your house.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2FthCAX4C5Y9_zps3363c0e7.jpg&hash=f892553a701930aae2029c26b10707d673c4d702) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/thCAX4C5Y9_zps3363c0e7.jpg.html)

Suppose my car is in the middle of this picture.  Just where do you propose the "wall socket" should be located?  And how do I install the wall socket without somehow running cables through another owner's space?

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 01:55:59 AM


At least their PR is world-class as they get all the press when others actually sell more electric cars in the US:

They've only been selling them for two years. Of course their cumulative sales are going to be lower, however they've taken quite a respectable slice of the market, especially given the high price they're charging.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
I am not surprised that the management companies won't allow the installation of chargers in carparks.  Cars in HK are parked bumper to bumper.  If you buy a carparking space, you only purchase the rights within that rectangle.  No more.  But if you install a charger there, you have to have cables of some sort.  That is occupying other people's property. Unless you have a wireless electricity connection ( :D).

Tesla would seem appropriately named then. ;)
https://news.vice.com/article/chinas-horrific-air-quality-prompts-its-government-to-purchase-electric-cars

Quote
The Chinese government revealed a new mandate requiring at least 30 percent of all automobiles purchased by the government to be electric or "new energy" vehicles by 2016, according to an official announcement made on Sunday.Unsurprisingly, the news gave electric car company stocks a boost.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
  Unless you have a wireless electricity connection ( :D).

Being developed by joint-venture of BMW and Mercedes at the moment.

EDIT: And by Audi, Mitsubishi, Toyota etc. in separate projects. The next Prius is supposed to have a wireless charger.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 17, 2014, 03:02:38 AM
They've only been selling them for two years. Of course their cumulative sales are going to be lower, however they've taken quite a respectable slice of the market, especially given the high price they're charging.

They wanted to sell 7.500 cars in Q2 and I can't even find any figures if they actually pulled that off. That's what GM sells in 7 hours or BMW .

Their high market-share figures come from the fact that they deliberately pick a very small segment of the competition (and the wrong segment if you ask me).

The solution to Mono's problem is to bulldoze Hong Kong and rebuild it from scratch.  Preferably with 90% less people. :)

Quote from: Caliga on July 17, 2014, 05:09:25 AM
The solution to Mono's problem is to bulldoze Hong Kong and rebuild it from scratch.  Preferably with 90% less people. :)

I have a slightly simpler solution: electric cars are none of my business :contract:

The simple solution isn't always the best one.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:56:29 AM

Quote from: frunk on July 17, 2014, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
I am not surprised that the management companies won't allow the installation of chargers in carparks.  Cars in HK are parked bumper to bumper.  If you buy a carparking space, you only purchase the rights within that rectangle.  No more.  But if you install a charger there, you have to have cables of some sort.  That is occupying other people's property.  Unless you can have a wireless electricity connection ( :D).

You don't need a charger, all you need is a wall socket, like you have in your house.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2FthCAX4C5Y9_zps3363c0e7.jpg&hash=f892553a701930aae2029c26b10707d673c4d702) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/thCAX4C5Y9_zps3363c0e7.jpg.html)

Suppose my car is in the middle of this picture.  Just where do you propose the "wall socket" should be located?  And how do I install the wall socket without somehow running cables through another owner's space?

When there will be enough demand for it, the car park owners will rebuild them with chargers in mind. Even tho everyone here seems hell bent on convincing you that HK must be some kind of precursor to the massive adoption of the electric car, China is not a country that will be a the forefront. It'll be that last holdout of dinopower car.

USA and Europe is where it matters.

My problem with Electric car is the massively reduce range at cold temperature and the need for heat then. My 200 miles Tesla 3 becomes a 20 miles Tesla 3. That's not viable.

 :hmm: Bulldoze Canada and rebuild it from scratch?

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2014, 07:29:22 AM


When there will be enough demand for it, the car park owners will rebuild them with chargers in mind.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2FManhattan-Hill-Condo-Towers-Hong-Kong-courtesy-of-Sun-Hung-Kai-Properties_zpsec373570.jpg&hash=3b1e1531d6871968e15b997f236bf4a688445783) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/Manhattan-Hill-Condo-Towers-Hong-Kong-courtesy-of-Sun-Hung-Kai-Properties_zpsec373570.jpg.html)

Ok, this is a rather typical housing estate in HK.  To build it, you first drill tons of pills say 200m downward until they reach solid bedrock.  Then you build a podium of, say, 6-8 floors above it.  Then you build buildings on top of the podium.  The carpark is inside the podium.  You can't just demolish the carparks and "rebuild" them.

The carparks are managed by a management company.  They "own" all the public spaces, corridors and lifts.  But each individual carpark is owned separately.  So unless you secure approval of absolutely everybody, there is almost no hope of rebuilding the carpark. 

Enough demand can make anything happen. Sure it'll be hard but it'll still happen.

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2014, 08:55:48 AM
Enough demand can make anything happen. Sure it'll be hard but it'll still happen.

The carpark doesn't operate on a commercial basis.  It is owned by the people living above.  There is no profit motive to cater to new demand.  If I am one of the individual parking space owners, and I don't own an electric vehicle, I won't agree to rebuild the carpark, and you can't rebuild it without my agreement. 

But you will own an electric car, your wife will make sure of that, just like all your neighbors.

If Hong Kong really has built an infrastructure that is incapable of supporting electric cars then in 20-30 years they'll either have to rebuild the city or be squeezed into clinging to an outdated technology. 

I don't think that's true though.  In order to run electricity to the car park would not require demolition of the structure, since presumably it already has electricity running to the buildings.  It won't be an overnight thing, but it won't be an overnight thing in the rest of the world either.  It's a case of the environment becoming more and more friendly to electric cars until it really isn't an issue anymore.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 08:48:31 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2014, 07:29:22 AM


When there will be enough demand for it, the car park owners will rebuild them with chargers in mind.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2FManhattan-Hill-Condo-Towers-Hong-Kong-courtesy-of-Sun-Hung-Kai-Properties_zpsec373570.jpg&hash=3b1e1531d6871968e15b997f236bf4a688445783) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/Manhattan-Hill-Condo-Towers-Hong-Kong-courtesy-of-Sun-Hung-Kai-Properties_zpsec373570.jpg.html)

Ok, this is a rather typical housing estate in HK.  To build it, you first drill tons of pills say 200m downward until they reach solid bedrock.  Then you build a podium of, say, 6-8 floors above it.  Then you build buildings on top of the podium.  The carpark is inside the podium.  You can't just demolish the carparks and "rebuild" them.

The carparks are managed by a management company.  They "own" all the public spaces, corridors and lifts.  But each individual carpark is owned separately.  So unless you secure approval of absolutely everybody, there is almost no hope of rebuilding the carpark.

:bleeding: I really hate that blue glass facade fashion.  Has there been a single building in the world with it that aged well, and didn't start looking like an abandoned warehouse 5 years after being built?

Why is there a 2 story hole in the middle?

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2014, 09:06:42 AM
Why is there a 2 story hole in the middle?

Fire safety.  Those are empty floors with nothing inside, just a concrete shell.  The fear is that, if there is a fire, the people who live in the top half won't make it to the ground alive by stairs.  So these floors provide a temporary refuge for the folks living above.  As there is nothing inside, there is nothing to burn. 

Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2014, 09:05:02 AM

:bleeding: I really hate that blue glass facade fashion.  Has there been a single building in the world with it that aged well, and didn't start looking like an abandoned warehouse 5 years after being built?

It all depends on if there is a management company and owners' committee.  If yes, they can make the residents pay management fees, and the company will maintain the building.  I pay around US$250 per month.  Of course it also covers a lot of stuff like 24 hour security, trash collection, a gym, a pool, lift maintenance, public area cleansing and lots of other stuff.  So if there is a management company, things should be fine.

If not, then what usually happens is someone will refuse to pay the fees, and more people will follow.  Until no one pays, and no one does anything.  Then the building will fall into disrepair.  The worst case is that it collasped.  Yeah, just a few years ago. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXj7vZtE_eA

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 09:09:48 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2014, 09:06:42 AM
Why is there a 2 story hole in the middle?

Fire safety.  Those are empty floors with nothing inside, just a concrete shell.  The fear is that, if there is a fire, the people who live in the top half won't make it to the ground alive by stairs.  So these floors provide a temporary refuge for the folks living above.  As there is nothing inside, there is nothing to burn.

:hmm: What about smoke inhalation?

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 09:23:16 AM

Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2014, 09:05:02 AM

:bleeding: I really hate that blue glass facade fashion.  Has there been a single building in the world with it that aged well, and didn't start looking like an abandoned warehouse 5 years after being built?

It all depends on if there is a management company and owners' committee.  If yes, they can make the residents pay management fees, and the company will maintain the building.  I pay around US$250 per month.  Of course it also covers a lot of stuff like 24 hour security, trash collection, a gym, a pool, lift maintenance, public area cleansing and lots of other stuff.  So if there is a management company, things should be fine.

If not, then what usually happens is someone will refuse to pay the fees, and more people will follow.  Until no one pays, and no one does anything.  Then the building will fall into disrepair.  The worst case is that it collasped.  Yeah, just a few years ago. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXj7vZtE_eA

:hmm: Buildings, even badly maintained, aren't supposed to do that.

Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2014, 09:24:38 AM

:hmm: What about smoke inhalation?

The buildings are designed in such a way that smoke won't spread too quickly.  For example, all the doors are made of solid wood that are supposed to last for an hour or more if there is a fire.  One of the management company's tasks is to send security patrol around every day to make sure that all these doors are closed.  There are two flights of stairs connecting each floor on opposite ends.  So if one flight of stairs is filled with smoke, there is always another.  There is also supposed to be some supplies in the empty floors, like water, towels and fire extinguishers. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 09:09:48 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2014, 09:06:42 AM
Why is there a 2 story hole in the middle?

Fire safety.  Those are empty floors with nothing inside, just a concrete shell.  The fear is that, if there is a fire, the people who live in the top half won't make it to the ground alive by stairs.  So these floors provide a temporary refuge for the folks living above.  As there is nothing inside, there is nothing to burn.

I like it.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:23:28 PM
Finding a place to charge the electric car is going to be a huge nightmare.  Deal-breaker, even. 

Not over here.  Even in my small town there are electric recharge at many convenient places.

Quote
US$40k is pretty close to the limit of how much I can spend on a car.  That really punches a hole in the balance sheet.  Can't imagine someone spending US$100k on a car. 

Neither can I, but I'm not a millionaire, yet.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 16, 2014, 09:06:18 PM
There is no way I will spend that kind of money on an unproven technology.

You should stick with horses.
These new-fangled horseless carriages are loud, smelly and very dangerous.  And can you imagine millions of people in a city trying to drive them around in small spaces?  Impossible.  They will never work in Hong Kong.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 08:48:31 AM
Ok, this is a rather typical housing estate in HK.  To build it, you first drill tons of pills say 200m downward until they reach solid bedrock.  Then you build a podium of, say, 6-8 floors above it.  Then you build buildings on top of the podium.  The carpark is inside the podium.  You can't just demolish the carparks and "rebuild" them.

The carparks are managed by a management company.  They "own" all the public spaces, corridors and lifts.  But each individual carpark is owned separately.  So unless you secure approval of absolutely everybody, there is almost no hope of rebuilding the carpark.

I think the sheer concentration of housing makes it easier to establish car chargers. These big complexes will already have a powerful electricity connection to the grid. And you just need to build chargers in one place (namely that concentrated carpark) and not distributed. High population density seems to be an advantage for the adoption of this technology.

Unfortunately it is going to be even smaller than the current model and so it is unlikely I will fit.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:56:29 AM
Just where do you propose the "wall socket" should be located?  And how do I install the wall socket without somehow running cables through another owner's space?

In the ground and in the floor.

I could imagine a future where all major parking lots and garages in houses, malls, office towers etc. will have chargers, and plugging in your car when you park it will become as second nature as locking the doors. There should also be a data connection that identifies you and your car and the consumption gets added to your usual power supplier's bill.

We'll probably have wireless charging for cars within this decade, so you could just fit parking lots with it and park your car there and you would be done. The car can obviously identify itself via mobile phone, RFID or car-to-x network.

Anyway, Hong Kong is hardly the chief concern as it is a tiny market. It will be more interesting to see how Tesla does in North America, Europe and mainland China in the next year or two. And especially once they launch that $35,000 electric car.

As mentioned, hive cities are ideal for electric cars. The problem is inertia, but that's where the government would step in. Having the cars loading at night would diminish pollution (and thus lower health costs and boost productivity) and make electrical energy demand higher at night (which would allow to shift a portion of daytime generation to baseload sources like nuclear).

The biggest problem I think, is that the main benefit of electric cars, namely that it doesn't pollute, is a social benefit.  The car owner pays for it in terms of higher purchase cost, reduced range, inferior performance etc, but won't notice the marginal reduction in pollution.  For the individual owners, the only benefit seems to be reduced fuel cost, but this must be weighed against the problems mentioned earlier. 

Quote from: Syt on July 17, 2014, 12:00:05 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:56:29 AM
Just where do you propose the "wall socket" should be located?  And how do I install the wall socket without somehow running cables through another owner's space?

In the ground and in the floor.

Unless you have wireless power, it won't work.  You are going to need to seek permission from the people who own the carpark corridors to rip the whole place apart to bury the cables under the parking spaces.  That's requires, what, closing the carpark for half a year?  Nobody will agree to let you do that. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:53:04 PM

Quote from: Syt on July 17, 2014, 12:00:05 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:56:29 AM
Just where do you propose the "wall socket" should be located?  And how do I install the wall socket without somehow running cables through another owner's space?

In the ground and in the floor.

Unless you have wireless power, it won't work.  You are going to need to seek permission from the people who own the carpark corridors to rip the whole place apart to bury the cables under the parking spaces.  That's requires, what, closing the carpark for half a year?  Nobody will agree to let you do that.

The wiring can easily be installed in trays anchored to the roof of the car park (just as lighting is often done). There's no need to bulldoze anything.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:50:02 PM
The biggest problem I think, is that the main benefit of electric cars, namely that it doesn't pollute, is a social benefit.  The car owner pays for it in terms of higher purchase cost, reduced range, inferior performance etc, but won't notice the marginal reduction in pollution.  For the individual owners, the only benefit seems to be reduced fuel cost, but this must be weighed against the problems mentioned earlier.

Purchase cost differential is shrinking, as is range.  Tesla is showing that performance can be equal or better.

The way Mono is talking in this thread, you'd think he kept his anime collection on VHS tapes.  :P

Quote from: Iormlund on July 17, 2014, 02:57:55 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:53:04 PM

Quote from: Syt on July 17, 2014, 12:00:05 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 02:56:29 AM
Just where do you propose the "wall socket" should be located?  And how do I install the wall socket without somehow running cables through another owner's space?

In the ground and in the floor.

Unless you have wireless power, it won't work.  You are going to need to seek permission from the people who own the carpark corridors to rip the whole place apart to bury the cables under the parking spaces.  That's requires, what, closing the carpark for half a year?  Nobody will agree to let you do that.

The wiring can easily be installed in trays anchored to the roof of the car park (just as lighting is often done). There's no need to bulldoze anything.

I work in a government complex, and I deliberately walked to the carpark to check out the charger for electric cars yesterday afternoon due to this thread.  I know that the government keeps a small fleet of these cars.  Sure enough, the charger has the Tesla name on it.  It is quite a bit larger and more complicated than a "wall socket" though.  I remember seeing at least 3 components in the setup, and entire thing is about 2 feet by 2 feet large.  They mount it on a wall, not on the ground or the roof.  Of course, this being a government complex, they can do whatever they want.  It is going to be a lot harder for an individual carpark owner to convince the owner's committee and management company to let him install this thing, and only if the parking space happens to be next to a wall. 

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 03:08:21 PM
I work in a government complex, and I deliberately walked to the carpark to check out the charger for electric cars yesterday afternoon due to this thread.  I know that the government keeps a small fleet of these cars.  Sure enough, the charger has the Tesla name on it.  It is quite a bit larger and more complicated than a "wall socket" though.  I remember seeing at least 3 components in the setup, and entire thing is about 2 feet by 2 feet large.  They mount it on a wall, not on the ground or the roof.  Of course, this being a government complex, they can do whatever they want.  It is going to be a lot harder for an individual carpark owner to convince the owner's committee and management company to let him install this thing, and only if the parking space happens to be next to a wall.

That's the heavy duty fast chargers.  They can also be charged from normal wall sockets.  It's slower but works fine for overnight.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 17, 2014, 03:05:45 PM
The way Mono is talking in this thread, you'd think he kept his anime collection on VHS tapes.  :P

You should've said Betamax  :P  Yes, when I was a kid, I really kept it on Betamax tapes.  A 42-episode series required, what, 4-5 tapes.  It was insane, and the quality was bad. 

Right now everybody is moving toward cloud storage and streaming.  I insist in keeping them on harddrives, and I have 5-6 of them.  I plan on buying several 4T ones soon.  I'll resist the move toward streaming and fight this battle for as long as I can  :P

Wireless charging through induction coils in the ground will come, Mono.

Mono - do buildings last forever in Hong Kong or do new ones get built as years pass?

Also my parking garage is apparently undergoing some construction next month. They sent us all a notice about the several days (from 12 at night to 6am) that we will not have access to our cars unless we've moved them. Not a super big hassle, really.

Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 03:25:48 PM
Mono - do buildings last forever in Hong Kong or do new ones get built as years pass?

Also my parking garage is apparently undergoing some construction next month. They sent us all a notice about the several days (from 12 at night to 6am) that we will not have access to our cars unless we've moved them. Not a super big hassle, really.

Depends.  Really old buildings are torn down all the time to make way for new ones.  It is a huge political issue though, and the economics behind are very complicated.  Basically, it only makes economic sense to demolish old ones if they didn't use their "plot ratios" to the fullest.  Say, if you tear down a building with 10,000 sq. feet of space and you can build a new one with double that amount of floor space, you'll probably do it.  This really only applies to buildings constructed in the 50s or 60s though.  When HK's economy took off in the 70s, all developers built the maximum amount of floor space permitted.  It is super painful to reconstruct these buildings, as a redeveloper needs to pay quite a bit of compensation to get the existing residents out.  There are lots of people who make a living by deliberately moving into old buildings in the hope of getting compensated when redevelopment happens.  There is also an entire industry of professionals who specialise in err "convincing" people to move out.  One of the favourite tactics is opening all the windows so that the entire building is flooded during heavy rain.  Like I said it is a very sensitive subject.

Another possibility is that the entire housing estate is a public one owned by the government.  In that case redevelopment is not too difficult.

A modern housing estate (pictured above) that is privately owned will be almost impossible to redevelop.  The cost of buying up the one I posted will be in the billions. 

If you walk through a typical Canadian parking lot you'll notice there's a plug in for every stall.

Now those are to plug in your block heater, not electric cars, but it goes to show it's not terribly difficult to get power in parking lots.

This thread intersected oddly with my life today. :)

It was one of the last threads I left before leaving for work, and right after I read it I thought "It'll probably be a while before all-electric cars start showing up in this bass-ackwards state."  :blush:

So I get off the interstate at the exit by my office and turn onto the road that leads there and find myself behind a Chevy Volt, which I guess is a hybrid, but whatever... I don't think I've seen one before around here.  Anyway, I get to the office and when I'm coming back from lunch later, I notice a Nissan Leaf parked in the lot.

Earlier this afternoon when work got kind of slow I went onto Tesla's website and looked at a Model S and thought "Hey, this is a pretty cool looking car, maybe if it's available around here by the time I decide to replace my current car I'll consider one."  So I get in the car and drive home, and at the last exit on the interstate before mine a freaking Tesla Model S pulls onto the road right in front of me! :wacko:  Traffic was slow and the dude switched lanes a couple of times so I got a good look at it from the front, side, and rear and it's indeed a pretty cool looking car. :cool:  The headlights have this neat LED thing that wraps around them.

There is a Tesla showroom in the same block as my office.  Tesla is very smart in the way they market their cars.  The showroom is very small - enough room for only one car and some displays.  The place is always packed with customers and the curious.  Owning one has become a status symbol here.

Awesome.  The nearest one to me is in Cincinnati, which I guess gives me an excuse to go up to the Hofbrauhaus and get drunk (maybe with spiess). :hmm:

edit: ugh, it's up by Blue Ash, which is even further.  Guess I could combine it with a visit to the Montgomery Inn though.

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 17, 2014, 07:12:08 PM
There is a Tesla showroom in the same block as my office.  Tesla is very smart in the way they market their cars.  The showroom is very small - enough room for only one car and some displays.  The place is always packed with customers and the curious.  Owning one has become a status symbol here.

Yeah, that's why I disagree with ... was it Zanza? ... who say they've got their marketing backwards. I think starting out high end and moving down market is a better plan than trying to break in at the low end first.

:yes:

The Leaf looked like a poormobile to me. :x

Quote from: Barrister on July 17, 2014, 05:15:42 PM
If you walk through a typical Canadian parking lot you'll notice there's a plug in for every stall.

Now those are to plug in your block heater, not electric cars, but it goes to show it's not terribly difficult to get power in parking lots.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.  The real problem isn't getting power in carparks.  As someone said earlier, there are already lights, fans, lifts and a lot of other stuff that need electricity there. 

The real problem is political, not technical.  An individual carpark has thousands of different owners.  The public areas are owned by a management company.  The management company cannot give consent for major works unless the owner's committee grants approval.  In addition to that, each individual parking space is owned by different flat owners.  The crux of the problem is how to secure approval from everybody to change the carpark to one that is usable by electric vehicles. 

I know nothing about HK real estate but I would guess there's something like a CAM clause in the deeds that allows them to unilaterally make improvements and spread the cost out among the owners.

Quote from: Caliga on July 17, 2014, 07:25:37 PM
I know nothing about HK real estate but I would guess there's something like a CAM clause in the deeds that allows them to unilaterally make improvements and spread the cost out among the owners.

I am sure they can replace lightbulbs that go dead or add additional lighting.  But major renovation works like adding chargers all over the place are certainly another matter.  I usually don't care about owners' committee stuff, but I know I will fight tooth and nail if someone is using my money to install chargers, and I am quite certain I am not alone. 

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 07:21:36 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 17, 2014, 07:12:08 PM
There is a Tesla showroom in the same block as my office.  Tesla is very smart in the way they market their cars.  The showroom is very small - enough room for only one car and some displays.  The place is always packed with customers and the curious.  Owning one has become a status symbol here.

Yeah, that's why I disagree with ... was it Zanza? ... who say they've got their marketing backwards. I think starting out high end and moving down market is a better plan than trying to break in at the low end first.

I think for Tesla it's a good plan, because of the premium you currently have to pay for an electric.  I think it would be backwards for a car company basing its line-up on cars with traditional internal combustion engines.

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 07:29:57 PM

Quote from: Caliga on July 17, 2014, 07:25:37 PM
I know nothing about HK real estate but I would guess there's something like a CAM clause in the deeds that allows them to unilaterally make improvements and spread the cost out among the owners.

I am sure they can replace lightbulbs that go dead or add additional lighting.  But major renovation works like adding chargers all over the place are certainly another matter.  I usually don't care about owners' committee stuff, but I know I will fight tooth and nail if someone is using my money to install chargers, and I am quite certain I am not alone.

Would you fight tooth and nail if it cost you $X dollars, but would increase your property value by some significant multiple of X?

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 07:34:56 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on July 17, 2014, 07:29:57 PM

Quote from: Caliga on July 17, 2014, 07:25:37 PM
I know nothing about HK real estate but I would guess there's something like a CAM clause in the deeds that allows them to unilaterally make improvements and spread the cost out among the owners.

I am sure they can replace lightbulbs that go dead or add additional lighting.  But major renovation works like adding chargers all over the place are certainly another matter.  I usually don't care about owners' committee stuff, but I know I will fight tooth and nail if someone is using my money to install chargers, and I am quite certain I am not alone.

Would you fight tooth and nail if it cost you $X dollars, but would increase your property value by some significant multiple of X?

I will fight against it for sure.  See, the carparking space and my flat are sold separately.  I don't see how installing chargers will increase the value of my flat.  I won't buy an electric vehicle unless I have no choice.  As you may have noticed I am not exactly the kind of person who rush in to adopt new technologies  ;) So installing chargers won't benefit me. 

Quote from: dps on July 17, 2014, 07:33:23 PM

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 07:21:36 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 17, 2014, 07:12:08 PM
There is a Tesla showroom in the same block as my office.  Tesla is very smart in the way they market their cars.  The showroom is very small - enough room for only one car and some displays.  The place is always packed with customers and the curious.  Owning one has become a status symbol here.

Yeah, that's why I disagree with ... was it Zanza? ... who say they've got their marketing backwards. I think starting out high end and moving down market is a better plan than trying to break in at the low end first.

I think for Tesla it's a good plan, because of the premium you currently have to pay for an electric.  I think it would be backwards for a car company basing its line-up on cars with traditional internal combustion engines.

That's how it works with new car companies with IC engines as well.  The new car companies are almost always making sportscars.  It actually takes a whole lot to build a competitive mass-produced car.

Here is something that's nagging me:  how sustainable is it to mass-produce electric cars?  Don't you need a whole bunch of rare materials to make batteries?  It may work fine when Tesla builds several thousand cars, but is tens of millions of cars feasible?

Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2014, 08:22:40 PM
Here is something that's nagging me:  how sustainable is it to mass-produce electric cars?  Don't you need a whole bunch of rare materials to make batteries?  It may work fine when Tesla builds several thousand cars, but is tens of millions of cars feasible?

Not for the batteries themselves, so much as the onboard electronics, where you might see selenium being used.  The batteries are typically mainly carbon, graphite, and one of a few possible harvested lithium compounds, which are fairly widely available.

Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2014, 08:22:40 PM
Here is something that's nagging me:  how sustainable is it to mass-produce electric cars?  Don't you need a whole bunch of rare materials to make batteries?  It may work fine when Tesla builds several thousand cars, but is tens of millions of cars feasible?

The rare earth metals are only rarein comparison to the abundance of iron, copper and the like on the earth's crust.  They're plentiful enough.  They're currently only produced in China because the Chinese are the most likely to put up with shitty environmental controls.

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 07:21:36 PM
Yeah, that's why I disagree with ... was it Zanza? ... who say they've got their marketing backwards. I think starting out high end and moving down market is a better plan than trying to break in at the low end first.

I think their marketing and especially PR is brilliant. I merely said that I am interested in seeing whether they'll also handle their other processes similarly well. And if they can keep their early success up. It's surprisingly hard to find recent sales numbers from Tesla.

It's very hard for a Western world carmaker to start with a volume model as the incumbents are extremely efficient already. There are some examples, e.g. Renault's cheaper line Dacia entering at the lowest end of the market in Europe. But that doesn't work for someone with innovative and thus expensive technology.

Quote from: DGuller on July 17, 2014, 08:20:53 PM

Quote from: dps on July 17, 2014, 07:33:23 PM

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 07:21:36 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 17, 2014, 07:12:08 PM
There is a Tesla showroom in the same block as my office.  Tesla is very smart in the way they market their cars.  The showroom is very small - enough room for only one car and some displays.  The place is always packed with customers and the curious.  Owning one has become a status symbol here.

Yeah, that's why I disagree with ... was it Zanza? ... who say they've got their marketing backwards. I think starting out high end and moving down market is a better plan than trying to break in at the low end first.

I think for Tesla it's a good plan, because of the premium you currently have to pay for an electric.  I think it would be backwards for a car company basing its line-up on cars with traditional internal combustion engines.

That's how it works with new car companies with IC engines as well.  The new car companies are almost always making sportscars.  It actually takes a whole lot to build a competitive mass-produced car.

Yeah, but those companies that start with sports cars or luxury cars basically stay niche manufacturers.  Look at the history.  Well, there hasn't been a real start-up to succeed in a long time, but look at the imports to the US.  Volkswagen started off with the Beetle, and the Japanese and Koreans started off with econoboxes and then, after those were successful, were able to move to the higher ends of the market.

Quote from: Zanza on July 18, 2014, 12:37:59 AM

Quote from: Jacob on July 17, 2014, 07:21:36 PM
Yeah, that's why I disagree with ... was it Zanza? ... who say they've got their marketing backwards. I think starting out high end and moving down market is a better plan than trying to break in at the low end first.

I think their marketing and especially PR is brilliant. I merely said that I am interested in seeing whether they'll also handle their other processes similarly well. And if they can keep their early success up. It's surprisingly hard to find recent sales numbers from Tesla.

It's very hard for a Western world carmaker to start with a volume model as the incumbents are extremely efficient already. There are some examples, e.g. Renault's cheaper line Dacia entering at the lowest end of the market in Europe. But that doesn't work for someone with innovative and thus expensive technology.

Fair enough :)

While in Madison I took a ride in a newer Prius.  MUCH better ride than the early model Priuii.  Didn't know it was a hybrid till I asked the driver.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2014, 02:54:53 PM
While in Madison I took a ride in a newer Prius.  MUCH better ride than the early model Priuii.  Didn't know it was a hybrid till I asked the driver.

The lack of noise and vibration didn't clue you in?

I test drove a Toyota Highlander hybrid a few months ago.  Very pleasurable to drive in a city/suburban setting, but something bugged me a bit driving it on the highway.  Loved the interior.

Quote from: Iormlund on July 21, 2014, 02:59:44 PM
The lack of noise and vibration didn't clue you in?

No.  Downtown Madison is on the hilly side, so the gas engine was engaged a lot.  And when coasting downhill it didn't sound noticeably different from a full gas car.

Quote from: Iormlund on July 21, 2014, 02:59:44 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 21, 2014, 02:54:53 PM
While in Madison I took a ride in a newer Prius.  MUCH better ride than the early model Priuii.  Didn't know it was a hybrid till I asked the driver.

The lack of noise and vibration didn't clue you in?

Just about every time my mother has gotten in my car, she's tried to chastise me for trying to move into drive without starting the car. :D -_-

The roadster's going to be upgraded to have a 400 mile range, as cost comes down that will be doable for their sedans in 5-10 years

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/07/18/tesla-roadster/12809975/

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 22, 2014, 01:28:54 AM
The roadster's going to be upgraded to have a 400 mile range, as cost comes down that will be doable for their sedans in 5-10 years

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/07/18/tesla-roadster/12809975/

Where are those fantastic range gains coming from?  I was under impression that battery technology was still struggling at improving more than incrementally.

I would love to have a hybrid car. A specific one, namely the Porsche 918 Spyder. It can drive 25km on its battery alone. Or you just use the 600 hp gasoline engine. :P

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F91%2FPorsche_918_Spyder_IAA_2013.jpg%2F1024px-Porsche_918_Spyder_IAA_2013.jpg&hash=cf11fe656d8b97949b1ac511f66523502b748ab6)

Tried quite a few hybrids and electric cars in my last job.

Favourites:
Tesla Roadster (insane car with way too much power for the roads around here)
Nissan Leaf (the saner option, and with all the trimmings of a good everyday use car)
VW Jetta hybrid (kicks like a mule when both engines go off. The electric enginge ensures momentum when passing someone on the highway)
VW eGolf. Just a very, very good car.

Not great:
Most electric cars. Small, cramped and with too small range. The best thing that can be said is that they all have momentum up to around 70 kmph.

The future most likely belongs to the electric cars, but outside of the Tesla range, a lot so far fall short of most carowners' needs in my opinion.

Great news for Tesla and everyone else in the field of electric cars.

http://scienceblog.com/73597/team-achieves-holy-grail-battery-design-stable-lithium-anode/

Quote
Team achieves 'holy grail' of battery design: A stable lithium anode

Engineers use carbon nanospheres to protect lithium from the reactive and expansive problems that have restricted its use as an anode

Engineers across the globe have been racing to design smaller, cheaper and more efficient rechargeable batteries to meet the power storage needs of everything from handheld gadgets to electric cars.

In a paper published today in the journal Nature Nanotechnology, researchers at Stanford University report that they have taken a big step toward accomplishing what battery designers have been trying to do for decades – design a pure lithium anode.

All batteries have three basic components: an electrolyte to provide electrons, an anode to discharge those electrons, and a cathode to receive them.

Today, we say we have lithium batteries, but that is only partly true. What we have are lithium ion batteries. The lithium is in the electrolyte, but not in the anode. An anode of pure lithium would be a huge boost to battery efficiency.

"Of all the materials that one might use in an anode, lithium has the greatest potential. Some call it the Holy Grail," said Yi Cui, a professor of Material Science and Engineering and leader of the research team. "It is very lightweight and it has the highest energy density. You get more power per volume and weight, leading to lighter, smaller batteries with more power."

But engineers have long tried and failed to reach this Holy Grail.

"Lithium has major challenges that have made its use in anodes difficult. Many engineers had given up the search, but we found a way to protect the lithium from the problems that have plagued it for so long," said Guangyuan Zheng, a doctoral candidate in Cui's lab and first author of the paper.

In addition to Zheng, the research team includes Steven Chu, the former U.S. Secretary of Energy and Nobel Laureate who recently resumed his professorship at Stanford.

"In practical terms, if we can improve the capacity of batteries to, say, four times today's, that would be exciting. You might be able to have cell phone with double or triple the battery life or an electric car with a range of 300 miles that cost only $25,000—competitive with an internal combustion engine getting 40 mpg," Chu said.

The engineering challenge

In the paper, the authors explain how they are overcoming the problems posed by lithium.

Most lithium ion batteries, like those you might find in your smart phone or hybrid car, work similarly. The key components include an anode, the negative pole from which electrons flow out and into a power-hungry device, and the cathode, where the electrons re-enter the battery once they have traveled through the circuit. Separating them is an electrolyte, a solid or liquid loaded with positively charged lithium ions that travel between the anode and cathode.

During charging, the positively charged lithium ions in the electrolyte are attracted to the negatively charged anode and the lithium accumulates on the anode. Today, the anode in a lithium ion battery is actually made of graphite or silicon.

Engineers would like to use lithium for the anode, but so far they have been unable to do so. That's because the lithium ions expand as they gather on the anode during charging.

All anode materials, including graphite and silicon, expand somewhat during charging, but not like lithium. Researchers say that lithium's expansion during charging is "virtually infinite" relative to the other materials. Its expansion is also uneven, causing pits and cracks to form in the outer surface, like paint on the exterior of a balloon that is being inflated.

The resulting fissures on the surface of the anode allow the precious lithium ions to escape, forming hair-like or mossy growths, called dendrites. Dendrites, in turn, short circuit the battery and shorten its life.

Preventing this buildup is the first challenge of using lithium for the battery's anode.

The second engineering challenge is that a lithium anode is highly chemically reactive with the electrolyte. It uses up the electrolyte and reduces battery life.

An additional problem is that the anode and electrolyte produce heat when they come into contact. Lithium batteries, including those in use today, can overheat to the point of fire, or even explosion, and are, therefore, a serious safety concern. The recent battery fires in Tesla cars and on Boeing's Dreamliner are prominent examples of the challenges of lithium ion batteries.

Building the nanospheres

To solve these problems the Stanford researchers built a protective layer of interconnected carbon domes on top of their lithium anode. This layer is what the team has called nanospheres

The Stanford team's nanosphere layer resembles a honeycomb: it creates a flexible, uniform and non-reactive film that protects the unstable lithium from the drawbacks that have made it such a challenge. The carbon nanosphere wall is just 20 nanometers thick. It would take some 5,000 layers stacked one atop another to equal the width of single human hair.

"The ideal protective layer for a lithium metal anode needs to be chemically stable to protect against the chemical reactions with the electrolyte and mechanically strong to withstand the expansion of the lithium during charge," Cui said.

The Stanford nanosphere layer is just that. It is made of amorphous carbon, which is chemically stable, yet strong and flexible so as to move freely up and down with the lithium as it expands and contracts during the battery's normal charge-discharge cycle.

Ideal within reach

In technical terms, the nanospheres improve the coulombic efficiency of the battery—a ratio of the amount of lithium that can be extracted from the anode when the battery is in use compared to the amount put in during charging. A single round of this give-and-take process is called a cycle.

Generally, to be commercially viable, a battery must have a coulombic efficiency of 99.9 percent or more, ideally over as many cycles as possible. Previous anodes of unprotected lithium metal achieved approximately 96 percent efficiency, which dropped to less than 50 percent in just 100 cycles—not nearly good enough. The Stanford team's new lithium metal anode achieves 99 percent efficiency even at 150 cycles.
 
"The difference between 99 percent and 96 percent, in battery terms, is huge. So, while we're not quite to that 99.9 percent threshold, where we need to be, we're close and this is a significant improvement over any previous design," Cui said. "With some additional engineering and new electrolytes, we believe we can realize a practical and stable lithium metal anode that could power the next generation of rechargeable batteries."

Read more at http://scienceblog.com/73597/team-achieves-holy-grail-battery-design-stable-lithium-anode/#4vDyuaH7gGEtsc7p.99

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 29, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Great news for Tesla and everyone else in the field of electric cars.

It's actually bad news if university researchers publish such findings as it allows everybody else to convert this into an engineering solution. That would erode Tesla's technological leadership, which is their main advantage over the competition.

Quote from: Zanza on July 29, 2014, 01:33:41 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 29, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Great news for Tesla and everyone else in the field of electric cars.

It's actually bad news if university researchers publish such findings as it allows everybody else to convert this into an engineering solution. That would erode Tesla's technological leadership, which is their main advantage over the competition.

Umm, Tesla made a big deal about giving away their technology for free...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/06/12/patent-medicine-tesla-makes-its-technology-available-to-everyone-for-free-in-bold-move-for-the-planet/

Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2014, 09:28:23 AM
Umm, Tesla made a big deal about giving away their technology for free...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/06/12/patent-medicine-tesla-makes-its-technology-available-to-everyone-for-free-in-bold-move-for-the-planet/

That was just a PR move. They had about 1,400 patents over the last 11 years, when Toyota had 1,491 patents in the US in 2012 alone...

Quote from: Zanza on July 29, 2014, 10:13:29 AM

Quote from: Barrister on July 29, 2014, 09:28:23 AM
Umm, Tesla made a big deal about giving away their technology for free...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/06/12/patent-medicine-tesla-makes-its-technology-available-to-everyone-for-free-in-bold-move-for-the-planet/

That was just a PR move. They had about 1,400 patents over the last 11 years, when Toyota had 1,491 patents in the US in 2012 alone...

While clearly it was a PR move (given that it did in fact get them a bunch of positive coverage), I don't think you can say it was "just" a PR move.  Musk and Tesla appear to be quite sincere in wanting other car companies to use their technology.

Sounds like a good move.
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/tesla-isnt-car-company-battery-company/

Quote
Tesla Isn't an Automaker. It's a Battery Company

Tesla is admired for building the cars of the future. But it's not really a car company. It's a battery company that happens to make electric cars.

At least, that's the trajectory suggested by the news that Tesla will soon sell mega-batteries for homes and electric utility companies. CEO Elon Musk mentioned the possibility during an earnings call last February, and the plan was reportedly confirmed in an investor letter revealed yesterday. The official announcement is set to come next week.

Selling batteries for homes, businesses, and utilities may seem like a departure for a car company. But for Tesla, it makes perfect sense. An electric car is only as green as the electrical grid that powers it. And if Tesla's batteries become widespread, they could help utilities take better advantage of inconsistent renewable energy sources like wind and solar. As demand for renewables rises, whether through regulatory mandate or consumer desire, so would utilities' demand for batteries that could help maintain a consistent flow—a demand Tesla is well-positioned to meet.

Renewable power can come in fits and stops, depending on whether the wind is blowing and if the sun is shining, but the supply doesn't always come at the exact same time as demand. Improved batteries could help utility companies store power from renewable power to even-out the spikes and spikes and valleys those sources produce. And, of course, residential homes could store more solar power from their own solar panels to reduce their reliance on the over-taxed grid—a reduction that utilities would also welcome.

Tesla's move into the electrical utility market isn't exactly novel says Sam Jaffe, a former industry analyst at Navigant Research and founder of battery technology company Cygnus Energy Storage. There are already dozens of companies offering battery packs for utility companies. But he says Tesla's move is a validation of the market, and its scale will make it a major player.

"In 10 years the grid will be cleaner, less expensive to maintain, and more reliable," Jaffe says. "And that will be thanks to energy storage technology."

Excess Capacity

Tesla's first expected foray beyond cars also highlights that the company's battery manufacturing capacity may soon be its strongest asset. Last year Tesla announced its plans to build a 10-million-square-foot battery manufacturing plant christened the Gigafactory. That capacity could easily be put to use building batteries for not just cars and houses, but for electronics such as laptops and cell phones. And that could be just the beginning.

Tesla relies on Panasonic to manufacture its battery cells, which Tesla then assembles into custom battery packs and modules. "As the biggest buyer of batteries from Panasonic, Tesla will be able to command the best rates and offer the best prices," he says. "It makes sense to play in the utility market, where there will be huge growth in the coming years."

The goal of the Gigafactory is to make batteries so cheap that electric cars can compete with conventional gasoline powered cars on price. Although it's possible that Tesla won't be able to radically reduce the cost of batteries, energy storage technology will still play a vital role in the company's future. Americans are driving less, and the fleets of self-driving car services that companies like Google and Uber imagine probably won't help much. In a world with fewer cars, Tesla will need new lines of business, and selling batteries—maybe even to other car companies—might be just the ticket.

Tesla already sells electric power trains to other car manufacturers, so the last sentence only describes the current situation.

It's also their expertise in battery systems, not just scale thar gives them a competitive advantage. If it was just scale, Panasonic would just as well sell to someone else.

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 01:55:59 AM
It will be interesting to see how Tesla develops. Recently their sales stagnated despite the extremely posivite PR they get. I am sure they'll be able to ramp up production, but it will be interesting to see if they can do so and stay profitable. Once they move from a niché brand to a mainstream brand, it will also be interesting to see how they square their direct sales model with repair/warranty work.

Isn't that due to production capacity more than a lack of demand though?
I understand you have to go on a waiting list to get a Tesla

They are building a huge facility where I live. Have been for a while now. I'm guessing that's part of their production ramp up strategy.

Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2015, 04:36:33 AM
I understand you have to go on a waiting list to get a Tesla

That's part of their marketing strategy as well.

Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2015, 04:36:33 AM

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2014, 01:55:59 AM
It will be interesting to see how Tesla develops. Recently their sales stagnated despite the extremely posivite PR they get. I am sure they'll be able to ramp up production, but it will be interesting to see if they can do so and stay profitable. Once they move from a niché brand to a mainstream brand, it will also be interesting to see how they square their direct sales model with repair/warranty work.

Isn't that due to production capacity more than a lack of demand though?
I understand you have to go on a waiting list to get a Tesla

They've built the Tesla S for more than two years now. If they cannot ramp up production in that time to meet demand, they seem to have some kind of issue with their production process.
Their factory in California used to build much bigger number of ICE cars before, so that can't be the limitation.

EDIT: I find it more likely that demand isn't picking up the way they expected.

ICE?
Internal combustion engine?
I've no idea what their factory is, its a re-purposed factory from someone else?

If they do have production troubles....I would say the sticking point is likely to be in rare earth sourcing.

Iron Crown Enterprises.

Quote from: The Brain on April 23, 2015, 04:42:17 PM
Iron Crown Enterprises.

:wub:

It was unveiled and there were 132,000 preorders as of 10:18

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-model-3-20160331-htmlstory.html

Quote from: Alcibiades on July 16, 2014, 09:08:48 PM
I test drove one a little over a week ago.  They were neat, but you're definitely paying for the electric part of the car with the high price tag, not the luxury portion.  Feel every bump, interior isn't greatly comfortable, has a plastic feel.


It was nice and all, but not for a $100k car......  Was pretty disappointed to be honest.   :unsure:

Thanks .
I'll take you review a zillion times over the environmental fanboys and the Crazy singularists that think an electric car can bring about paradise on Earth.

The interior (well the drivers side dash/missing instrument cluster to be specific) on the new cheap ones is no bueno.  Hopefully it isn't finished yet and all that was was a mock up. 

I got two friends that have already ordered one. To be frank, a mass produced electric car will be a good thing in order to streamline and drive down costs of the technology, and bring better cars in the future.

Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 02, 2016, 12:38:28 AM
The interior (well the drivers side dash/missing instrument cluster to be specific) on the new cheap ones is no bueno.  Hopefully it isn't finished yet and all that was was a mock up.

It's meant to be self-driving, so you don't need a traditional instrument cluster anymore. But even considering that, the interior looks rather bland. American cars often have a rather cheap feel to their interior and this might not be different.

I am also not really sold on having a single big touch screen in the middle of the car as the perfect user interface. As long as the driver still at least occasionally drives the car himself, he should have all relevant information in front of him, not having to take his eyes of the road and the hands of the steering wheel. I like those heads-up displays that Audi pioneered and that are available in other cars now as well.

I've always wondered if it's actually legal to have the car drive itself.  :hmm:

Quote from: Zanza on April 02, 2016, 02:32:45 AM
It's meant to be self-driving, so you don't need a traditional instrument cluster anymore.

It isn't going to be able to self drive everywhere, or probably even most places just yet, so you're going to need to be able to see how fast you're going without looking down at where the radio controls traditionally are. 

E:  Speaking of which, I saw a thing on my news feed the other day about a....Volvo, I think it was.....self driving car not doing so well here in the US because of how shittily marked the roads were. 

Yeah, it's strange that there isn't a dash behind the wheel like in the Model X.

Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on April 02, 2016, 03:26:31 AM

Quote from: Zanza on April 02, 2016, 02:32:45 AM
It's meant to be self-driving, so you don't need a traditional instrument cluster anymore.

It isn't going to be able to self drive everywhere, or probably even most places just yet, so you're going to need to be able to see how fast you're going without looking down at where the radio controls traditionally are. 

I agree. As I wrote above, I am a big fan of heads-up displays where all relevant information is displayed directly in the windscreen.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-DW_Hxf2mvQU%2FU_I2Ku7Y7cI%2FAAAAAAAAGow%2FeyjYSxhx2fY%2Fs1600%2Fmercedes-c-class-220-head-up-display.jpg&hash=9b3436631f47dbd3ececf011b932a070e3f29850)

QuoteE:  Speaking of which, I saw a thing on my news feed the other day about a....Volvo, I think it was.....self driving car not doing so well here in the US because of how shittily marked the roads were. 

I think the first major application of self-driving vehicles will be with long-distance trucks that drive mostly on highways. If the time the truck drives itself does not count against the work time of the driver it means you don't have to stop as often anymore to stay within legal limits for driving time. You could basically let the truck drive for 24h and would only need the driver occasionally off-highway.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2016, 02:59:08 AM
I've always wondered if it's actually legal to have the car drive itself.  :hmm:

IIRC the first state to allow driverless cars was Nevada.

Quote from: Zanza on April 02, 2016, 04:11:12 AM
I think the first major application of self-driving vehicles will be with long-distance trucks that drive mostly on highways. If the time the truck drives itself does not count against the work time of the driver it means you don't have to stop as often anymore to stay within legal limits for driving time. You could basically let the truck drive for 24h and would only need the driver occasionally off-highway.

Much like planes, where the autopilot is usually engaged during cruise.

Yeah a HUD would work.  I assume they don't get washed out by direct sunlight anymore, so there you go.  As far as the highway driving goes:  man, even our highways suck for markings in a lot of places.  Here's the article I was thinking of:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-autonomous-infrastructure-insig-idUSKCN0WX131

Musk is quoted as well as the Volvo dude. I also wonder about construction areas where everything is totally screwed up.  Poor car sensors aren't going to know wtf. I'm sure there will be workarounds and all that.  Hopefully soon.  I don't like driving to and from work.  Making my car do it for me would be p nice.  :)

As far as this specific car goes, they got a shitload of pre-orders:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/01/teslas-model-3-has-already-racked-up-232-000-pre-orders/

I saw someone....somewhere (  :hmm: )...talking about that $7500 fed credit not really applying anymore because they've hit, or will hit soon, a certain number of sold vehicles even if you just count the S and X.  Something like 200,000. 

Apparently they don't work too well in the snow or heavy rain, either.
So I guess you're fine as long as you stick with California.

at least for the first few generations, I can't see (completely) self-driving cars being too popular beyond a few niche markets. the idea is nice, but I don't think people would like giving up control

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 02, 2016, 04:55:03 PM
Apparently they don't work too well in the snow or heavy rain, either.
So I guess you're fine as long as you stick with California.

I thought they were all wheel drive? Should do well in the snow I would think, as long as you aren't driving it too aggressively?

Quote from: Berkut on April 02, 2016, 05:47:28 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 02, 2016, 04:55:03 PM
Apparently they don't work too well in the snow or heavy rain, either.
So I guess you're fine as long as you stick with California.

I thought they were all wheel drive? Should do well in the snow I would think, as long as you aren't driving it too aggressively?

I think he meant the heads up displays.

Heavy rain and snow can interfere with the sensors on self driving cars.

To be fair, snow interferes with everything!

I mean the self-driving cars.
They have difficulty identifying the lanes, and heavy precipitation interferes with the sensors.

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 02, 2016, 08:49:37 PM
I mean the self-driving cars.
They have difficulty identifying the lanes, and heavy precipitation interferes with the sensors.

I think you are looking at 2010 technology.
The demos i have seem of the google car with the lidar and the other whahisname sensor have no problem navigating through the rain.

Quote from: LaCroix on April 02, 2016, 05:24:53 PM
at least for the first few generations, I can't see (completely) self-driving cars being too popular beyond a few niche markets. the idea is nice, but I don't think people would like giving up control

Please.
Wait until people discover they can read, sleep, watch movies, and what not while the car drives itself.
Even more importantly, the autocar its far safer due to the reaction time to any issues on the road.

When the full autocar, with no steering wheel, hits the market, and people realize they don't need car insurance anymore, and its safety record is 100% accident free, nobody is going to even look at primitive steering cars.

I foresee the following timeline :
5 years.  All new cars have autopilot.
10 years. All new cars are steering wheelless.
15 years. Humans prohibited from driving.
20 years. The only way to drive a car is to rent one in an specialized track, the way we ride horses these days.

Quote from: Siege on April 02, 2016, 09:08:57 PM

Quote from: LaCroix on April 02, 2016, 05:24:53 PM
at least for the first few generations, I can't see (completely) self-driving cars being too popular beyond a few niche markets. the idea is nice, but I don't think people would like giving up control

Please.
Wait until people discover they can read, sleep, watch movies, and what not while the car drives itself.
Even more importantly, the autocar its far safer due to the reaction time to any issues on the road.

When the full autocar, with no steering wheel, hits the market, and people realize they don't need car insurance anymore, and its safety record is 100% accident free, nobody is going to even look at primitive steering cars.

I foresee the following timeline :
5 years.  All new cars have autopilot.
10 years. All new cars are steering wheelless.
15 years. Humans prohibited from driving.
20 years. The only way to drive a car is to rent one in an specialized track, the way we ride horses these days.

When has a new technology ever been adopted so quickly and seamlessly?

I also foresee great changes in car design.

I think the first row, where the driver is now, will become optional, maybe collapsable into the floor, and the back row will become the main seat, luxurious and expandable into a bed.

Front windshield will likely become a big screen TV, though the virtual reality headsets might upstage this design feature. But i see major changes in car design.

Also, the apearance of the carbot, not designed to carry people, but to carry goods from the market to your home.

Order online from the supermarket, the bot gets loaded with your order, it delivers it to your door, send you a text when it gets there, only opens up when it detects your phone in proximity.

Just saying.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2016, 09:13:57 PM

Quote from: Siege on April 02, 2016, 09:08:57 PM

Quote from: LaCroix on April 02, 2016, 05:24:53 PM
at least for the first few generations, I can't see (completely) self-driving cars being too popular beyond a few niche markets. the idea is nice, but I don't think people would like giving up control

Please.
Wait until people discover they can read, sleep, watch movies, and what not while the car drives itself.
Even more importantly, the autocar its far safer due to the reaction time to any issues on the road.

When the full autocar, with no steering wheel, hits the market, and people realize they don't need car insurance anymore, and its safety record is 100% accident free, nobody is going to even look at primitive steering cars.

I foresee the following timeline :
5 years.  All new cars have autopilot.
10 years. All new cars are steering wheelless.
15 years. Humans prohibited from driving.
20 years. The only way to drive a car is to rent one in an specialized track, the way we ride horses these days.

When has a new technology ever been adopted so quickly and seamlessly?

Smartphones.

People still use landlines.

It actually took quite a long time to mature from telephones to carphones to wireless phones and from tablets to mini computers and tablet laptops and then finally actual tablet computers that could have phones put in them. Remember the iPaq and the Apple Newton? That stuff had several failed launches before it was mature enough to be good enough and cheap enough.

Even Star Trek sometimes depicted multiple books with multiple pad readers.  :P

This is what we'll really get...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d1/01/2c/d1012cb8be72e1ce1012326a28975c96.jpg

253,000 preorders

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-02/a-ride-in-tesla-s-35-000-model-3-musk-s-master-plan-realized-imjpkaou

Wow.
Tesla is next really big thing, it appears.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2016, 09:29:11 PM
People still use landlines.

CdM still uses ley lines.

Quote from: The Brain on April 03, 2016, 04:11:20 AM
CdM still uses ley lines.

Ed puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Quote from: Siege on April 02, 2016, 08:57:08 PM
I think you are looking at 2010 technology.
The demos i have seem of the google car with the lidar and the other whahisname sensor have no problem navigating through the rain.

Lidar can't see lane lines. 

E: http://www.wired.com/2016/01/the-clever-way-fords-self-driving-cars-navigate-in-snow/ That's from this year, not 2010.

I was looking at the new Tesla but I am concerned I won't fit in the vehicle.  I am going to wait until they start production to decide.

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2016, 12:24:59 PM
I was looking at the new Tesla but I am concerned I won't fit in the vehicle.  I am going to wait until they start production to decide.

If I was going to buy an EV I think I would take a long-hard look at the Chevy Bolt, which should be available by the end of the year (and without having to pony up a $1000 deposit for a two year wait).

Hyundai is going to make one based on a small SUV/mid-size sedan chassis, CC might fit into that.

Just saw one in display in the shopping centre near work. Rather sleek.

Quote from: Grey Fox on April 05, 2016, 07:47:58 AM
Hyundai is going to make one based on a small SUV/mid-size sedan chassis, CC might fit into that.

Need a full size.  Those small SUV models and mid size cars don't work for me.

If that is the future I might have to just get a bike.

I saw the Audi electric SUV last year at the Frankfurt motor show and that was full-size.

Quote from: Zanza on April 05, 2016, 01:06:32 PM
I saw the Audi electric SUV last year at the Frankfurt motor show and that was full-size.

You give me hope  :cheers:

My local bike shop has electric mountain bikes for $3,000.  :hmm:

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 05, 2016, 01:33:54 PM

Quote from: Zanza on April 05, 2016, 01:06:32 PM
I saw the Audi electric SUV last year at the Frankfurt motor show and that was full-size.

You give me hope  :cheers:

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It's a bit larger than their current Q5 SUV. So it's fairly big for a European car, not very big for an American car...