So I'm reading 2666 (TBH simultaneously listening to and reading) by Roberto Bolano, and I'm starting to wonder just how different Spanish is from country to country or region of Spain to region of Spain.
Amalfitano, one of the protagonists, is left dumbfounded by a Mexican word (something like chilaquiles, only not, cause that's an awesome Mexican breakfast food that I fucking love). I've heard that Mexican Spanish is radically different from that of the mainland, but how different is it from Chile or Argentina? Is there a New World Spanish and an Old World Spanish, or a Pacific Coast South America Spanish and a Caribbean Spanish and a Central-North American Spanish, or does it differ from country to country?
Can people switch registers, so that a Mexican can sound more official and European?
I don't know spanish, but I have worked with spanish interpreters.
WHat's been explained to me is that the accent and language caries country to country. Mexican spanish is reasonably different from Argentine spanish. And from languish itself I've heard that old world spanish is quite a bit more different.
There are big differences amongst Latin American Spanish. Broadly speaking you have Mexican-Central American, Caribbean (which includes Venezuela and Colombia), Andean (Ecuador, Perú, Chile & Bolivia) and Rioplatense (Argentina + Uruguay).
I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences, as do some of the Central American dialects.
Does Chile have a lot of Basque influence?
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences, as do some of the Central American dialects.
Does Chile have a lot of Basque influence?
Rioplatense is the bastard child of Spanish and Italian, that's true. The Italian influence is more on the cadence and pronunciation than in grammar or vocabulary, though.
Actually it would be neat to look at what European dialects influenced the different parts of the ex-Colonies. I'd guess Extremaduran and Andalusian off of the ties to Seville but it could be anything.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
Does Chile have a lot of Basque influence?
Why would Chile have Basque influence?
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2014, 11:38:24 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences, as do some of the Central American dialects.
Does Chile have a lot of Basque influence?
Rioplatense is the bastard child of Spanish and Italian, that's true. The Italian influence is more on the cadence and pronunciation than in grammar or vocabulary, though.
Aren't like half of the Italian dialects the bastard child of Greek, Spanish and "Italian" anyway?
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2014, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
Does Chile have a lot of Basque influence?
Why would Chile have Basque influence?
A lot of Basque settlers. Basques were disproportionately involved in navigation, mining and fishing, and Chile was great for that.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:38:52 AM
Actually it would be neat to look at what European dialects influenced the different parts of the ex-Colonies. I'd guess Extremaduran and Andalusian off of the ties to Seville but it could be anything.
I doubt there are many connections, my guess is that, where there were sizeable native populations, like Mexico and Perú, their influence in the Spanish spoken there would be greater that any brand of Spanish the settlers may have brought.
Edit: Actually, the only region of Spain whose accent is somehow similar to an American equivalent would be the Canaries, whose accent has slightly Caribbean overtones. A Venezuelan or Dominican sounds somehow similar to a Canarian.
I can only speak from a gringo/yanqui perspective, but it seems that there can be a lot of variation in local dialects in terms of vocabulary & slang. My working theory is that just about any innocuous word in one Spanish-speaking country means something dirty in another.
Pretty much all Spanish instruction I had was in what is spoken throughout most of the mother country. The Mexican variations were not a shock, save for a few local terms (cacahuete? wtf). Argentine Spanish was a bit of a shock. It felt like a distinct language.
There is a lot of familiarization with other dialects thanks to TV, movies, music, etc. but there are still occasional breakdowns in communication. My wife has friends from all over Latin America and particularly when speaking with Mexicans they sometimes have to revert to English if they get stuck.
Also, obviously, different areas have different slang.
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2014, 11:44:31 AM
I doubt there are many connections, my guess is that, where there were sizeable native populations, like Mexico and Perú, their influence in the Spanish spoken there would be greater that any brand of Spanish the settlers may have brought.
Yeah and subsequent cultural. For example the influx of Italians to Uruguay and Paraguay and, I imagine, there's some impact on Mexican Spanish from the US.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:40:28 AM
A lot of Basque settlers. Basques were disproportionately involved in navigation, mining and fishing, and Chile was great for that.
According to Wiki Chilean Spanish is most similar to the Andalusian dialect. You are right about the Basque thing but it does not seem to have influenced the language much.
A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. :lol:
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences,
It does, but in a weird sort of way. As I understand it, there isn't a lot of direct Italian influence, per se. You had the Cocoliche Italian-Spanish pidgin that swirled around on its own for a while amongst the poor Italian immigrants, sort of at the same time the lower class Lunfardo dialect came about. It seems that Cocoliche and Lunfardo then blended together somewhat before being absorbed into the general Argentine/Uruguayan dialect.
So there's Italian influence for sure, but in a mutated form rather than directly incorporating Italian phrases or terms. Their manner of expression, the rhythm with which they speak, and the weird hand gestures seem to have made it through in purer form.
FWIW, when the New York Times published an article that demonstrated a lot of Italian hand gestures, the Argies I showed them to recognized almost all of them.
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. :lol:
No way you outdo the Argies in that department.
edit: Or it may just be that my wife's family & friends are so foul-mouthed :D :blush: Around the house just about every 30 seconds you hear someone say
"pincha pelotas!", "carajo", "la puta madre", etc.
Quote from: derspiess on April 30, 2014, 12:02:32 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. :lol:
No way you outdo the Argies in that department.
edit: Or it may just be that my wife's family & friends are so foul-mouthed :D :blush: Around the house just about every 30 seconds you hear someone say "pincha pelotas!", "carajo", "la puta madre", etc.
I now have flashbacks to that clip of the old River Plate fan watching the game in which they were relegated. :lmfao:
And yes, we curse more than Argentinians. Saying joder every two or three words is second nature to us. Argentinian swearwords tend to be more elaborate, though.
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2014, 11:44:31 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:38:52 AM
Actually it would be neat to look at what European dialects influenced the different parts of the ex-Colonies. I'd guess Extremaduran and Andalusian off of the ties to Seville but it could be anything.
I doubt there are many connections, my guess is that, where there were sizeable native populations, like Mexico and Perú, their influence in the Spanish spoken there would be greater that any brand of Spanish the settlers may have brought.
Edit: Actually, the only region of Spain whose accent is somehow similar to an American equivalent would be the Canaries, whose accent has slightly Caribbean overtones. A Venezuelan or Dominican sounds somehow similar to a Canarian.
Probably because of the presence of African slaves and that the Canaries were kind of the blueprint of the colonization of the Americas, similar to how the American South was built upon a Caribbean model by people form the Caribs.
The thing about South-American Spanish sounding more "polite" to us Spaniards is mainly because of voseo (usage of third person instead of second person). This is considered formal usage in Spain-Spanish and thus sounds more polite to us. They can bomb you with tons of profanity, but hey, they will be calling you "usted" while they do it.
Quote from: derspiess on April 30, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences,
It does, but in a weird sort of way. As I understand it, there isn't a lot of direct Italian influence, per se. You had the Cocoliche Italian-Spanish pidgin that swirled around on its own for a while amongst the poor Italian immigrants, sort of at the same time the lower class Lunfardo dialect came about. It seems that Cocoliche and Lunfardo then blended together somewhat before being absorbed into the general Argentine/Uruguayan dialect.
So there's Italian influence for sure, but in a mutated form rather than directly incorporating Italian phrases or terms. Their manner of expression, the rhythm with which they speak, and the weird hand gestures seem to have made it through in purer form.
FWIW, when the New York Times published an article that demonstrated a lot of Italian hand gestures, the Argies I showed them to recognized almost all of them.
This makes a lot of sense. The same thing is really true of Italian or Asian Americans. Even if they are 5th generation and mixed, you can still feel or hear traces of it. I have a friend who is half-Japanese (her mother) and she has a really, really distinctively "Japanese girl laugh", and you can tell very quickly that her English is Asian American. Same with Italian Americans-they gesticulate a lot more, and more aggressively, than us pure Yankees.
Though, I love how completely ignorant even Italian-born Italian Americans are of Italy. My barber is Italian born, and we started talking about Italy, and he insisted that his city, Campobasso, was close to Sicily. I said "wait, isn't it right across from Naples?", and he said yes, and that that was right next to Sicily. I was a bit drunk (they get $2 craft beers from a local brewery), but still not stupid enough to argue about the geography of his home country while he had a knife at my throat.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 12:30:21 PM
Though, I love how completely ignorant even Italian-born Italian Americans are of Italy. My barber is Italian born, and we started talking about Italy, and he insisted that his city, Campobasso, was close to Sicily. I said "wait, isn't it right across from Naples?", and he said yes, and that that was right next to Sicily. I was a bit drunk (they get $2 craft beers from a local brewery), but still not stupid enough to argue about the geography of his home country while he had a knife at my throat.
Argentines are kind of weird about their Italian lineage (which obviously varies by family, but some surnames are unmistakable). You almost get the impression they'd rather keep it hidden.
Quote from: celedhring on April 30, 2014, 12:13:39 PM
The thing about South-American Spanish sounding more "polite" to us Spaniards is mainly because of voseo (usage of third person instead of second person). This is considered formal usage in Spain-Spanish and thus sounds more polite to us. They can bomb you with tons of profanity, but hey, they will be calling you "usted" while they do it.
Weird, that was sort of my impression when first started seeing/hearing voseo so much. I never took any French, but I knew
vous was the formal "you" so I just sort of associated
vos with that.
I was disappointed to find out they didn't use
vosotros. In both high school and college we were always forced to learn it when conjugating verbs, so it felt like a waste to never be able to use it in conversation.
Anyway, I tried for the longest time to avoid voseo when speaking since IMO the best way to improve is to try to focus on a single dialect, but after a while it sort of flowed. So now I'll arbitrarily shift between
tú and
vos regardless of whether I'm speaking with an Argie or Mexican or whatever. I'm more conscious about usage of "che", but that's because I usually employ that when mocking an Argie.
It's a language spoken in Spain and 'dialects' of it in both Latin and Central Americas, as well as isolated pockets in Africa and Asia.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 12:13:27 PM
Probably because of the presence of African slaves and that the Canaries were kind of the blueprint of the colonization of the Americas, similar to how the American South was built upon a Caribbean model by people form the Caribs.
Why did you bring up the American South? That seems like it weakens your point.
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2014, 01:58:13 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 30, 2014, 12:13:27 PM
Probably because of the presence of African slaves and that the Canaries were kind of the blueprint of the colonization of the Americas, similes to how the American South was built upon a Caribbean model by people form the Caribs.
Why did you bring up the American South? That seems like it weakens your point.
Deep, plantation South has a real Carribean influence. Look at South Carolina.
Okay. Give me a minute.
Quote from: The Larch on April 30, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. :lol:
Probably because Latin America is a much more violent society. You insult someone's mother there and you might get shot.
EDIT: I believe that Disney does two Spanish dubs for their movies. One in Castilian, one labeled Latin American. Not sure which dialect they use for that, I assume Mexican though simply because they have by far the largest population.
Glad we finally got the Spanish language expert in here.
Quote from: derspiess on April 30, 2014, 08:32:29 PM
Glad we finally got the Spanish language expert in here.
Grammar errors in multiple languages.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 30, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 30, 2014, 08:32:29 PM
Glad we finally got the Spanish language expert in here.
Grammar errors in multiple languages.
He doesn't even know enough Spanish to fuck it up.