Fucking Airlines <_<
http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/sns-201404150000--tms--travelpkctnxf-a20140415-20140415,0,3959227.column
QuoteEd Perkins on Travel
April 15, 2014
Last week, the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee marked up a proposed bill that would allow airlines once again to omit taxes and fees from advertised prices and instead add them in later, just before you buy. Make no mistake: This "Transparent Airfares Act of 2014" is an anti-consumer bill. It was drafted, marked up, and sent to the House without any input from consumer or business travel interests. And it is based on lies.
-- Lie Number 1: Consumers want this information. Not true: I know of no credible consumer advocacy or business travel group that wants this change, and the most important ones all oppose it. Politicians often support bad proposals by solemnly asserting, "The American people want..." without any factual basis whatever, and this is no exception. Who really wants this bill? Airlines want it, and their lobbyists were apparently even successful enough to get support from members of Congress who are normally sound on consumer issues. Consumers really want what the Department of Transportation gave them in 2012: Honest, all-up advertising of the true cost of an airline ticket.
Lie Number 2. "Government fees and taxes are hidden from the public." No, airline fees and taxes are not "hidden" under current rules; airlines post them in easily accessible pull-down menus or other statements clearly and openly for anyone who cares.
-- Lie Number 3. "Virtually all consumer products are advertised at a base price, with taxes added on at the point of purchase." Again, not so. The only taxes traditionally added at the point of purchase are state and local sales taxes, which do not apply to airline tickets. Federal excise taxes and user fees, on the other hand, are routinely included in the base prices on all products to which they apply: The biggest federal excise taxes are on gasoline, tobacco products and alcoholic beverages, and those taxes are always included in the posted prices you see where you buy them. Moreover, unlike the case of sales taxes, virtually all of the air ticket taxes, fees and charges go directly or indirectly to fund government programs that support air travel: airports, air traffic control, security, customs and immigration, and such.
-- Lie Number 4: The bill will "restore transparency to the advertising of U.S. airline ticket prices." No, you don't have to be an astrophysicist to figure out that the bill will obscure the total cost of travel, not make it more transparent.
And there's a subtext to these lies. What some airlines really want is not limited to excluding government taxes and fees. What they really want is to exclude their own "carrier imposed" fees and charges, like the notorious "fuel surcharges" they tried before DOT made them quit. You remember those bad old days: "London just $300 round-trip" in big type or on the first screen, with a footnote saying "plus a fuel surcharge of $400." That practice, which the FTC calls "drip pricing," is a scam, and although airlines can't use that scam on ordinary ticket sales, some still use it with frequent flyer awards and in other non-ticket circumstances. The would-be scammers supporting this bill probably won't get that far this time, but if they can move this current dog through the Congress now you can bet they'll be back for a round two.
For now, the bill is a long way from law, with an uncertain outcome in the full House and the Senate. But even if it doesn't pass this time, airline lobbyists will keep working on future Congresses. If you value honest airline advertising, let your congressional delegation know you think this is a terrible idea. Check consumertravelalliance.org/ and consumertraveler.com/ for other takes on this important issue.
This is the first of two columns focused on consumer issues before the government. Next week: DOT has the authority to police outrageous change fees on international tickets but refuses to obey the law.
They have become too consolidated to be a competitive marketplace anymore. There's a reason airlines are making money now, when they've been traditionally a sure loser. No more competition.
Not showing the real price of something after taxes is one of the most annoying things about buying anything in the US.
The real price is before taxes. You don't want to know how much tax you're paying? :huh:
does it really matter?
Quote from: LaCroix on April 29, 2014, 04:57:01 AM
does it really matter?
It's a matter of citizenship. So it matters in that sense yes.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
The real price is before taxes. You don't want to know how much tax you're paying? :huh:
I know exactly what tax I pay (20% VAT on most goods, except certain zero-rated products like books) without the mental gymnastics of trying to work out whether the £20 I have in cash in my pocket will cover a £17.50 purchase.
That's nice but this is about the US and we don't have it that simple. :(
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 04:58:07 AMIt's a matter of citizenship. So it matters in that sense yes.
i meant the article. how much material effect does non-transparency currently have (or would likely to have) on inflating prices across the board? raising prices works only if everyone is on board, and i'd imagine there will always be regional players that try to steal customers from delta, etc. by offering lower prices. flying is expensive, and people who fly tend to have access to the internet. this means customers are better able to compare prices, which acts as further incentive for airlines to not engage in price inflation
Quote from: LaCroix on April 29, 2014, 05:06:49 AM
i meant the article. how much material effect does non-transparency currently have (or would likely to have) on inflating prices across the board? raising prices works only if everyone is on board, and i'd imagine there will always be regional players that try to steal customers from delta, etc. by offering lower prices. flying is expensive, and people who fly tend to have access to the internet. this means customers are better able to compare prices, which acts as further incentive for airlines to not engage in price inflation
Ah I see. I don't think it really does. The price inflation as I see it is coming from the cartelization of the airline market in the US. They've pretty much consolidated and stopped most competition against each other between the major players. The transparency issue is probably just a ploy so they can blame the high prices on other things like taxes and airport fees.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
The real price is before taxes. You don't want to know how much tax you're paying? :huh:
No, why should I care? In the end I want to know how much money something costs me. The exact proportion of taxes and other components of the price doesn't matter to me.
The most atrocious example I can remember was a hotel room in Philadelphia, which had like three additional taxes on top of the price that was shown when you booked the room. Sales tax, tourism tax and hotel tax or something like that.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 05:12:00 AM
Ah I see. I don't think it really does. The price inflation as I see it is coming from the cartelization of the airline market in the US. They've pretty much consolidated and stopped most competition against each other between the major players. The transparency issue is probably just a ploy so they can blame the high prices on other things like taxes and airport fees.
I thought you had budget airlines too that would put a lot of pressure on prices. Like Southwest, Jetblue, Spirit or so.
Taxes are a given. The only time I expect to see taxes included in an advertised price is at the gas pump, so I see that as a non-issue.
Fees, on the other hand... if they're common enough that they're going to apply to all customers, then I'm sorry, but advertise them in the price. Nothing pisses me off like seeing a $400 ticket magically become a $450 or $500 ticket at checkout.
+$1 convenience fee
WTF.
Pretty soon we'll have free air travel plus $500 taxes and fees.
They already do that sometimes for "free" rewards tickets.
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2014, 11:43:35 AM
They already do that sometimes for "free" rewards tickets.
Actually, this is a great place to hammer the Euros. In flights originating in the US, reward flights are mostly free. But in Europe? The flights are almost as much as a full ticket.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 04:58:07 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 29, 2014, 04:57:01 AM
does it really matter?
It's a matter of citizenship. So it matters in that sense yes.
Do you tally the total sales taxes you pay? Do you pull out your calculator to make sure you are paying exactly 8.25%? What sort of grand duties of citizenship am I to do to make up for never knowing exactly how much something costs?
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2014, 01:03:25 PM
Do you tally the total sales taxes you pay? Do you pull out your calculator to make sure you are paying exactly 8.25%? What sort of grand duties of citizenship am I to do to make up for never knowing exactly how much something costs?
I don't have to. It's right on the receipt. :huh:
I know exactly how much the thing costs and I know exactly what the tax was on it.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 29, 2014, 06:05:28 AM
Taxes are a given. The only time I expect to see taxes included in an advertised price is at the gas pump, so I see that as a non-issue.
But they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It is just so they can advertise their products at less than you will actually pay. There is no reason why they cannot list the taxes on an advertisement except to mislead and obscure. It is not like they change every day.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
I don't have to. It's right on the receipt. :huh:
I know exactly how much the thing costs and I know exactly what the tax was on it.
Ok so what is gained from not advertising it or listing the price plus tax? It could still be on the receipt so we could all be good citizens.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2014, 11:50:14 AM
Actually, this is a great place to hammer the Euros. In flights originating in the US, reward flights are mostly free. But in Europe? The flights are almost as much as a full ticket.
Yes. Makes more sense to buy an economy ticket and an upgrade to business class as otherwise you still have to pay like half the price or more of an economy ticket anyway.
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2014, 01:09:43 PM
Ok so what is gained from not advertising it or listing the price plus tax? It could still be on the receipt so we could all be good citizens.
Nothing I can think of. Obviously, it would be best if it was advertised as actual price and price after tax, but hey.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
I don't have to. It's right on the receipt. :huh:
I know exactly how much the thing costs and I know exactly what the tax was on it.
Except for all the other taxes that go into the price but aren't shown?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2014, 01:03:25 PM
Do you tally the total sales taxes you pay? Do you pull out your calculator to make sure you are paying exactly 8.25%? What sort of grand duties of citizenship am I to do to make up for never knowing exactly how much something costs?
I don't have to. It's right on the receipt. :huh:
I know exactly how much the thing costs and I know exactly what the tax was on it.
It is one thing to not list sales taxes. They typically aren't much, and it might be a pain to have to label with prices inclusive of tax based on the zillion tax jurisdiction in this country.
Plane tickets are a bit different. Before carriers had to advertise inclusive prices, the advertised headline price often had little connection to the actual price. FLY TO BERLIN FOR $199!!! (
Price with taxes and fees $1200. Add an additional $100 each way for Friday or Sunday departure).
Quote from: Zanza on April 29, 2014, 06:05:13 AMI thought you had budget airlines too that would put a lot of pressure on prices. Like Southwest, Jetblue, Spirit or so.
frontier is amazingly cheap. plus, there's all sorts of different animals painted on the fins of its planes. that's the sign of a professional airline
Southwest was the last professional airline before they got rid of the hot pants and go-go boots.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthedesignair.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fvintage-southwest-08.jpeg&hash=cd92835fa74470ab3537f1cc43afec64d4664dde)
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2014, 01:08:31 PM
But they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It is just so they can advertise their products at less than you will actually pay. There is no reason why they cannot list the taxes on an advertisement except to mislead and obscure. It is not like they change every day.
:huh: If the taxes "from jurisdiction to jurisdiction", how can "they" just "list the taxes on an advertisement?" The taxes depend on where
you are reading the advertisement!
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2014, 02:34:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2014, 01:08:31 PM
But they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It is just so they can advertise their products at less than you will actually pay. There is no reason why they cannot list the taxes on an advertisement except to mislead and obscure. It is not like they change every day.
:huh: If the taxes "from jurisdiction to jurisdiction", how can "they" just "list the taxes on an advertisement?" The taxes depend on where you are reading the advertisement!
I think the taxes and fees relate to where the service is provided. If I buy a ticket from Washington to New York, the airport in Atlanta doesn't collect the fees just because that is where I bought the ticket.
In all places I have been in Europe most purchases are broken down by base+tax in the receipt, while they advertise the full price you will pay. Seems the fairest way to do it, and I don't know what I'm missing on.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
I think the taxes and fees relate to where the service is provided. If I buy a ticket from Washington to New York, the airport in Atlanta doesn't collect the fees just because that is where I bought the ticket.
If you buy a McD's bunch of fries in Atlanta, you'd pay a different tax than in New York, which would be different from that in Detroit, which would be different from that in Dodge City, etc. McD's couldn't possibly list all the real prices you'd pay for a "$1 bunch o' fries." All they can list is the retail price.
Quote from: celedhring on April 29, 2014, 03:58:23 PM
In all places I have been in Europe most purchases are broken down by base+tax in the receipt, while they advertise the full price you will pay. Seems the fairest way to do it, and I don't know what I'm missing on.
Most European countries have a VAT, which is easily added to all prices. It is tougher when you have lots of small tax jurisdictions. Every merchant would have to hand-mark the price of every good.
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2014, 04:21:21 PM
If you buy a McD's bunch of fries in Atlanta, you'd pay a different tax than in New York, which would be different from that in Detroit, which would be different from that in Dodge City, etc. McD's couldn't possibly list all the real prices you'd pay for a "$1 bunch o' fries." All they can list is the retail price.
Airlines price base on route and time. If there is an advertised fare from Washington to Detroit, the airline should know all the taxes and fees associated with that flight, because they know where and when the service will take place.
The taxes will be the same, regardless of where I buy the ticket.
I wish we would adopt the Yuro pricing policy.
Good luck getting state and local governments to agree on a consistent sales tax rate.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 29, 2014, 06:19:28 PM
Good luck getting state and local governments to agree on a consistent sales tax rate.
Don't need it. Just list retail prices including tax.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2014, 02:05:16 PM
Southwest was the last professional airline before they got rid of the hot pants and go-go boots.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthedesignair.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fvintage-southwest-08.jpeg&hash=cd92835fa74470ab3537f1cc43afec64d4664dde)
I'll take all but the two fatties.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 29, 2014, 04:47:54 PM
Airlines price base on route and time. If there is an advertised fare from Washington to Detroit, the airline should know all the taxes and fees associated with that flight, because they know where and when the service will take place.
The taxes will be the same, regardless of where I buy the ticket.
But that is only true about airline prices. Neither I, nor the person I was responding to, were referring to airline prices, but to taxes and prices in general. You'll get better at this discussion thing when you learn to read, not just to write.
Quote from: grumbler on April 30, 2014, 08:36:25 AM
But that is only true about airline prices. Neither I, nor the person I was responding to, were referring to airline prices, but to taxes and prices in general. You'll get better at this discussion thing when you learn to read, not just to write.
The thread topic is about airline tickets.
General statements were made about taxes, by you and Valmy. I highlighted that in the case of airline tickets, the topic of the thread, some of the specifics mentioned don't apply. You responded to me with a specific example of McDonald's. I reiterated again that in the case of airline tickets, the topic of this thread, that doesn't really apply.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2014, 06:24:05 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 29, 2014, 06:19:28 PM
Good luck getting state and local governments to agree on a consistent sales tax rate.
Don't need it. Just list retail prices including tax.
Then you can't advertise prices. Websites that charge tax wouldn't even be able to show you prices until you gave them your address.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 30, 2014, 03:38:09 PM
Then you can't advertise prices. Websites that charge tax wouldn't even be able to show you prices until you gave them your address.
Are there actually websites that charge tax? :unsure:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2014, 06:44:49 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 30, 2014, 03:38:09 PM
Then you can't advertise prices. Websites that charge tax wouldn't even be able to show you prices until you gave them your address.
Are there actually websites that charge tax? :unsure:
Amazon does.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 30, 2014, 09:59:36 AM
The thread topic is about airline tickets.
General statements were made about taxes, by you and Valmy. I highlighted that in the case of airline tickets, the topic of the thread, some of the specifics mentioned don't apply. You responded to me with a specific example of McDonald's. I reiterated again that in the case of airline tickets, the topic of this thread, that doesn't really apply.
The conversation you butted into was not just about airline tickets. Had you read what I posted, or what Valmy posted, you'd have seen that. If you are going to respond to posts without knowing what they are about because you haven't bothered to read, then you are going to sound like you don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Simply re-iterating, Tmmay-like, that the thread was originally discussing airline tickets doesn't help your cause.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2014, 06:24:05 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 29, 2014, 06:19:28 PM
Good luck getting state and local governments to agree on a consistent sales tax rate.
Don't need it. Just list retail prices including tax.
How can you do that if taxes aren't the same everywhere, though? For example, when I lived in Blacksburg, VA, there were at least 7 Wendys locations from Blacksburg to Radford (where I worked), but they were all in different municipalities with different local taxes. All of them charged $1.99 + tax for a single (IIRC; it's been a looong time and $1.99 might not have been the base price, but the point is that the base price was the same in all the locations), but because of the varying local taxes you wouldn't actually pay the same thing in all of them. And if they advertised in the newspaper, the paper most people actually read was the Roanoke paper, and there were probably at least 50 different tax rates that would have applies in the paper's market.
They could start advertising the actual price in their retail outlets.
That.
I'm surprised that anyone on this board has been inconvenienced by having to pay a few extra cents in tax.
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2014, 11:56:56 AM
I'm surprised that anyone on this board has been inconvenienced by having to pay a few extra cents in tax.
This is retarded. No one is bitching about having to pay sales tax.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2014, 12:00:10 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2014, 11:56:56 AM
I'm surprised that anyone on this board has been inconvenienced by having to pay a few extra cents in tax.
This is retarded. No one is bitching about having to pay sales tax.
Then I'm very confused as dps example was about a retail store.
Note, California has a hot food tax and I always laughed at the individuals who got angry that their $5 foot long wasn't 5 dollars if toasted.
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2014, 12:02:55 PM
Then I'm very confused as dps example was about a retail store.
The issue is not the existence of a sales tax, or the level of sales taxes (though I'm glad that here in God's Country we don't have to tack on 20% VAT).
The issue is the convenience of knowing ahead of time how much you will be out of pocket when you see a price listed.
For example, say you need a new rig for the Gay Pride Day Parade. You think to yourself, that mink jock would look sporting, and you wonder how much you'll have to pay. You might think to yourself "at $200, that's a pretty good deal" but then it might look different when you get to the register and they add $24 sales tax. Or maybe you only have $200 on you.
There's no downside that I can think of to including sales tax in the listed price.
Inconvenient for businesses and not that big of a hassle for consumers?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2014, 01:18:13 PM
There's no downside that I can think of to including sales tax in the listed price.
There are two alleged down-sides I've heard of:
1) It's important that people know how much tax the government is taking, so they don't blame the seller for high prices. I think this is a bullshit argument.
2) Because the US has so many different tax schemes across jurisdictions, price labelling including tax is onerous for companies producing/ selling stuff across the country. It's easier to label (and keep track of) $9.99 + tax and be done with, than have to calculate and produce labels for the same product in different stores, especially when you consider things like moving inventory from location to location and/or changing tax regimes.
Still, I prefer the tax included pricing.
Quote from: Jacob on May 02, 2014, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2014, 01:18:13 PM
There's no downside that I can think of to including sales tax in the listed price.
There are two alleged down-sides I've heard of:
1) It's important that people know how much tax the government is taking, so they don't blame the seller for high prices. I think this is a bullshit argument.
2) Because the US has so many different tax schemes across jurisdictions, price labelling including tax is onerous for companies producing/ selling stuff across the country. It's easier to label (and keep track of) $9.99 + tax and be done with, than have to calculate and produce labels for the same product in different stores, especially when you consider things like moving inventory from location to location and/or changing tax regimes.
Still, I prefer the tax included pricing.
I think I've made it clear that I think the 2nd argument has merit.
The first one does as well in theory, but in practice the customer blames the retailer anyway.
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Just 20 %? Our VAT is 25 % on most things. Half on foodstuffs. And of course extra taxes on harmful stuff like alcohol and tobacco.
I've not quite quit smoking, but at least substituted 2/3 of my cigs with "snus". Which apparently becomes ridiculously expensive even in Sweden soon.
Quote from: Norgy on May 03, 2014, 07:52:31 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Just 20 %? Our VAT is 25 % on most things. Half on foodstuffs. And of course extra taxes on harmful stuff like alcohol and tobacco.
I've not quite quit smoking, but at least substituted 2/3 of my cigs with "snus". Which apparently becomes ridiculously expensive even in Sweden soon.
:huh: Ours is 25%.
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2014, 08:03:01 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 03, 2014, 07:52:31 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Just 20 %? Our VAT is 25 % on most things. Half on foodstuffs. And of course extra taxes on harmful stuff like alcohol and tobacco.
I've not quite quit smoking, but at least substituted 2/3 of my cigs with "snus". Which apparently becomes ridiculously expensive even in Sweden soon.
:huh: Ours is 25%.
Not everyone is a nuclear physicist. :P
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2014, 11:45:23 AM
They could start advertising the actual price in their retail outlets.
They could. Why they would want to do something so bad for business is a different question.
If every business were required to post price including tax, that would be one thing. However, noting that Wendy's could advertise higher prices than the competition is just stupid. Of course they could. They could triple the price on all of their products, as well. They could lock their doors so no customers could get in. They could change their corporate name every day. There is an unending list of stupid things they could do. Why even mention just one?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2014, 01:18:13 PM
There's no downside that I can think of to including sales tax in the listed price.
Wow. You are not very good at thinking, are you? :console:
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2014, 08:03:01 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 03, 2014, 07:52:31 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Just 20 %? Our VAT is 25 % on most things. Half on foodstuffs. And of course extra taxes on harmful stuff like alcohol and tobacco.
I've not quite quit smoking, but at least substituted 2/3 of my cigs with "snus". Which apparently becomes ridiculously expensive even in Sweden soon.
:huh: Ours is 25%.
Where do the 5 % go to? The Five Percent Community?
Quote from: Norgy on May 03, 2014, 02:35:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2014, 08:03:01 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 03, 2014, 07:52:31 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Just 20 %? Our VAT is 25 % on most things. Half on foodstuffs. And of course extra taxes on harmful stuff like alcohol and tobacco.
I've not quite quit smoking, but at least substituted 2/3 of my cigs with "snus". Which apparently becomes ridiculously expensive even in Sweden soon.
:huh: Ours is 25%.
Where do the 5 % go to? The Five Percent Community?
You buy something that is $100, pre tax. The tax rate is 25%. Therefore the tax is $25, and the total you pay is $125.
So if you are asking how much you pay in tax as a percent of the total expenditure, it is 20%. $25 in taxes, divided by $125 in expenditure.
The denominator changes.
25 is what % of 125 is different than what is 25% of 100.
Me fail maths? Unpossible.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 03, 2014, 09:05:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2014, 08:03:01 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 03, 2014, 07:52:31 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 02, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
When I buy stuff in Sweden 20% goes to the government. That's whack.
Just 20 %? Our VAT is 25 % on most things. Half on foodstuffs. And of course extra taxes on harmful stuff like alcohol and tobacco.
I've not quite quit smoking, but at least substituted 2/3 of my cigs with "snus". Which apparently becomes ridiculously expensive even in Sweden soon.
:huh: Ours is 25%.
Not everyone is a nuclear physicist. :P
I see.