So I'm catching up on all the stuff in my dvr and I see Bourdain interviewing chef René Redzepi about his restaurant noma (considered the most elite cuisine on the planet atm). And he mentions in passing that because he'd been building this reputation, over the last couple decades he'd been getting all kinds of criticism and compared with nazis, war criminals and called all kinds of horrible things in the press simply because he's daring to excel at what he does. Tony didn't understand this so he explained it was a cultural thing having to do with Jante.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.ibtimes.com%2Fsites%2Fwww.ibtimes.com%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fv2_article_large%2Fpublic%2F2013%2F08%2F23%2Ftenrules-01.png&hash=bf2b9dce97168ee96a15f816f59464a8a05e6b56)
Now, forgive my ignorance, but this looks to my untrained American eye like the tenets of an evil cult. And a culturally self-destructive one at that.
Shouldn't the Danes be proud that the best chef in the world is in Copenhagen? There has to be more nuance to this that explains it better than what I saw in the show.
Please enlighten me.
Seems to me that someone is breaking several of the rules.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 26, 2014, 08:26:14 AMNow, forgive my ignorance, but this looks to my untrained American eye like the tenets of an evil cult. And a culturally self-destructive one at that.
Shouldn't the Danes be proud that the best chef in the world is in Copenhagen? There has to be more nuance to this that explains it better than what I saw in the show.
Please enlighten me.
Jante law is a regrettable but inescapable facet of danish culture. It is what it is, and you learn to cope with it if interacting with danes on a regular basis. Or you get the hell out of the country.
Quote from: Legbiter on April 26, 2014, 09:36:11 AM
Jante law is a regrettable but inescapable facet of danish culture. It is what it is, and you learn to cope with it if interacting with danes on a regular basis. Or you get the hell out of the country.
So Jante is to Danes what Sharia is to Saudis? Gotcha.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2014, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 26, 2014, 09:36:11 AM
Jante law is a regrettable but inescapable facet of danish culture. It is what it is, and you learn to cope with it if interacting with danes on a regular basis. Or you get the hell out of the country.
So Jante is to Danes what Sharia is to Saudis? Gotcha.
Yes.
Although maybe not as formally codified, it's ingrained into Danish society.
Interesting, especially as how it wasn't even explicitly stated until some 80 years ago.
Still, I can see these rules being true in Scandinavia, and can see how the Swedes, Norwegians, and Danes each think that they invented the idea. The Japanese have some very similar cultural values.
It's derived from a novel set in a fictional Danish provincial town, Jante, in the early 20th century. It's not intended to describe something specific to that town, or even Denmark, but rather a universal human tendency to deride and counter individuals deviating from accepted community norms.
In Denmark the expression has common cultural currency and is often invoked, but never in a positive way. Rather it is used as a counter argument against critics or to explain difficulties, ascribing either to the hostility of myopic, resentful, small-minded individuals who allege to speak for the community.
But yeah - it wasn't intended to describe a particularly Danish phenomenon, and I don't think it does, but rather a not uncommon attitude of placing unambitious social expectations in opposition to the individual who want something different or dares to voice criticism.
It's not so much the tenets of a cult as much as it's an attempt to encapsulate the "commandments" of small-minded resentfulness.
Quote from: Legbiter on April 26, 2014, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2014, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on April 26, 2014, 09:36:11 AM
Jante law is a regrettable but inescapable facet of danish culture. It is what it is, and you learn to cope with it if interacting with danes on a regular basis. Or you get the hell out of the country.
So Jante is to Danes what Sharia is to Saudis? Gotcha.
Yes.
Although maybe not as formally codified, it's ingrained into Danish society.
:lol:
Legbiter's inter-Scandinavian trolling notwithstanding, Jante's law is intended to encapsulate how someone who can't wait to leave their oppressive small town behind feels about the town, or how the frustrated individual feels about their ignorant and unambiguous colleagues and superiors in an crappy large organization.
Can it be rendered in minecraft?
It's what successful people use to explain criticism when they're being called out for being assholes.
Case in point: Our best Handballer ever, and perhaps the best in the world in her time. And also a colossal douchebag.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.bimg.dk%2Fnode-images%2F187%2F620x411-c%2F187621-truende-adfrd--.jpg&hash=d1adbba6e9b31e691dc57efa62c562bce338782a)
Also what Jacob said.
Quote from: Liep on April 26, 2014, 11:24:29 AM
It's what successful people use to explain criticism when they're being called out for being assholes.
Case in point: Our best Handballer ever, and perhaps the best in the world in her time. And also a colossal douchebag.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.bimg.dk%2Fnode-images%2F187%2F620x411-c%2F187621-truende-adfrd--.jpg&hash=d1adbba6e9b31e691dc57efa62c562bce338782a)
So Jante Law is what defines successful Scandanavian people as assholes and douchebags. Gotcha.
Again, this is much like Japan. I wonder if the cultural pressures leading to the similar values were, themselves, similar pressures, or whether it was just a case of similarity without any significant common thread.
Just remember, "the nail that sticks out catches your foot and hurts like hell."
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2014, 11:37:13 AM
So Jante Law is what defines successful Scandanavian people as assholes and douchebags. Gotcha.
So no. But I see little point in arguing with you if that's what you took from what I wrote.
Quote from: Liep on April 26, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2014, 11:37:13 AM
So Jante Law is what defines successful Scandanavian people as assholes and douchebags. Gotcha.
So no. But I see little point in arguing with you if that's what you took from what I wrote.
:lol: You're not arguing with me, and I'm not arguing with you.
My posts are all tongue-in-cheek, like Legbiter's. I'd never heard of this thing until this thread.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2014, 11:52:14 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 26, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2014, 11:37:13 AM
So Jante Law is what defines successful Scandanavian people as assholes and douchebags. Gotcha.
So no. But I see little point in arguing with you if that's what you took from what I wrote.
:lol: You're not arguing with me, and I'm not arguing with you.
My posts are all tongue-in-cheek, like Legbiter's. I'd never heard of this thing until this thread.
Wow.
Speaking of
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fheltnormalt.dk%2Fimg%2Ftruth_facts%2Fiphone%2F2014%2F04%2F25.png&hash=daf7f093698b2b7ed7907c42cb9b9acead8500ea)
Here I thought Axel Sandemose was mostly Norwegian for living here. :mad:
Jacob sums it up well. The novel isn't even that good a read. I'd say that the Jante Law is mostly eradicated in Scandinavia, and that we might need to get a bit of it back, really.
Quote from: Liep on April 26, 2014, 11:57:57 AM
Speaking of
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fheltnormalt.dk%2Fimg%2Ftruth_facts%2Fiphone%2F2014%2F04%2F25.png&hash=daf7f093698b2b7ed7907c42cb9b9acead8500ea)
"Insects for Restaurants"
"Anally mired"
"Price for a maiden"
Close? :uffda:
I think I'm smarter than Yi.
When I first came to norway, using my school danish to try and keep up, the book they were reading in junior high was "En Flyktning Krysser Sitt Spor", where the Jantelov is introduced. The Jantelov was being explained and the discussion was about how horrible and bad it was. Having spent the previous 11 years in Iceland and the USA, two places Anja Andersen would feel at home, I kept saying that Norway is the living embodiment of the Jantelov. It still is.... and I got into trouble for saying it. Norway is a small town on a national level. Oslo is a large city that aspires to be a village.
The only kind of success which is kosher is success at athletics and music. Being successful in any other field is suspect and requires atonement of some sort. Success and Deviation is considered arrogant in the extreme. The side effect of this is that only deviants claim success.
The other big effect of not being permitted pride in individual achievement is that collective achievement is fetishised to the extreme. Being proud of what the village did and it's traditions is the only kind of pride and ambition permitted, so it is the only kind which is practiced. This is why norwegians as individuals are usually considered to be humble and decent while norwegians as groups are horribly arrogant and selfish.
Janteloven is not eradicated in Norway, it is institutionalized on all levels.
As for Japan, after 3 years in norway I was desparate to get away from it all and I went as an exchange student to the place that seemed most different from norway: japan. grumbler is right, it is practiced in Japan as well.
Quote from: Liep on April 26, 2014, 11:24:29 AM
It's what successful people use to explain criticism when they're being called out for being assholes.
Case in point: Our best Handballer ever, and perhaps the best in the world in her time. And also a colossal douchebag.
I'm okay with her shirt, and whatever shirt she wants to wear so long as it doesn't command me to fuck her. :yuk:
hey, that joke about Jude Law was oddly fitting....
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2014, 02:49:21 PM"Insects for Restaurants"
"Anally mired"
"Price for a maiden"
Close? :uffda:
Sort of:
Insects [found] at restaurants.
Number of ants.
Price for the food.
Quote from: Viking on April 26, 2014, 04:23:31 PM
The only kind of success which is kosher is success at athletics and music. Being successful in any other field is suspect and requires atonement of some sort. Success and Deviation is considered arrogant in the extreme. The side effect of this is that only deviants claim success.
The other big effect of not being permitted pride in individual achievement is that collective achievement is fetishised to the extreme. Being proud of what the village did and it's traditions is the only kind of pride and ambition permitted, so it is the only kind which is practiced. This is why norwegians as individuals are usually considered to be humble and decent while norwegians as groups are horribly arrogant and selfish.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with having pride in collective accomplishments. The factor that seems self-destructive is fetishizing anyone successful as assholes. Yeah, go ahead and invent cold fusion in your basement, but don't you dare mention it to anyone or we'll all call you Hitler.
Never mind that you could revolutionize the lives of billions and go a long way toward eradicating poverty. It's a horrible disincentive.
Edit: And that makes it detrimental to the interests of the collective, no?
So it's the Danish take on lagom?
I heard much about that, but certainly never encountered it. Rich arse holes are rich arse holds in Sweden just as much as britain
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
So it's the Danish take on lagom?
I heard much about that, but certainly never encountered it. Rich arse holes are rich arse holds in Sweden just as much as britain
No I don't think it has to do with money so much as having accomplishments or notoriety.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 26, 2014, 09:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
So it's the Danish take on lagom?
I heard much about that, but certainly never encountered it. Rich arse holes are rich arse holds in Sweden just as much as britain
No I don't think it has to do with money so much as having accomplishments or notoriety.
It's ok to have money, just don't flaunt it too much. Accomplishments are fine too, as long as you don't think they are any kind if big deal or that they make you better than anyone in any way.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
So it's the Danish take on lagom?
I heard much about that, but certainly never encountered it. Rich arse holes are rich arse holds in Sweden just as much as britain
Worse. They strangle women to death in their elaborate basements.
Another speaking of, Redzepi and Noma just won world's best restaurant award again.
And he's now making a fool of himself in his acceptance speech.