QuoteItaly to declassify documents on 'Years of lead' violence
(Reuters) - Italy will declassify secret documents about terrorist bombings between the 1960s and 1980s during a period known as the "Years of lead", the government announced on Tuesday.
The ultra-leftwing Red Brigades, neo-fascist groups, shadowy secret service figures and the mafia have all been implicated in the surge of political violence including the 1969 bombing in Milan's Piazza Fontana and the bombing of Bologna's main railway station in 1980.
Scores of people were killed and hundreds more injured, but many of the incidents, which took place during a Cold War period of extreme political tension, remain unsolved despite years of investigation.
Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said in a statement he regarded the decision to declassify the documents as "a duty towards citizens and relatives of the victims of episodes which remain a murky stain in our common memory."
He said documents relating to the Piazza Fontana and Bologna bombs, the mysterious crash of a DC-9 aircraft at Ustica near Sicily in 1980 and other bombings in the 1970s and 1980s would be opened to the public.
The documents will be declassified starting with the oldest and collected in the central state archives.
This should be a true cornucopia of shit stirring if only part of the suspicions of Italian secret services involvement, together with organized crime, the Vatican, CIA and NATO also playing a role, turn out to be at least half true.
The Vatican?
Quote from: Valmy on April 23, 2014, 08:42:49 AM
The Vatican?
Can't have a conspiracy without the CIA and the Vatican getting involved.
Americans. :mad:
Quote from: The Larch on April 23, 2014, 08:07:46 AM
Bologna bombs,
Is that another Ed euphemism for poop?
Kentucky round steak.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2014, 08:47:38 AM
Americans. :mad:
Operation Gladio.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fe%2Fec%2FGladio.png&hash=97a20dc9284726f950d2bab14f7f5b1206947e84)
Should be interesting. I'll probably wait for Sorrentino to make films about it :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on April 23, 2014, 08:42:49 AMThe Vatican?
No direct involvement in actual terrorism, but rumour says they used to give shelter to terrorists and helped organized crime to launder money, Godfather III style. The "Banda della Magliana", a Roman crime gang, had links to the Vatican, far right groups and the Italian secret services, and are rumoured to be the executors of some of the bombings, and other criminal stuff in that period, like the killing of Roberto Calvi, God's banker, and Ali Agca's attempt on the life of John Paul II. Enrico de Pedis, one of the gang's leaders, was buried in a Roman basilica. It's a fascinating time period.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 09:20:27 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2014, 08:47:38 AM
Americans. :mad:
Operation Gladio.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fe%2Fec%2FGladio.png&hash=97a20dc9284726f950d2bab14f7f5b1206947e84)
:ph34r:
So, will we see the Italian equivalent of -
This file contains everything except -
a. A small number of secret documents.
b. A few documents which are part of still active files.
c. Some correspondence lost in the floods of 1967.
d. Some records which went astray in the move to London.
e. Other records which went astray when the Department was reorganized.
f. The normal withdrawal of papers whose publication could give grounds for an action for libel of breach of confidence or cause embarrassment to friendly governments."
:)
I've got an interest in post-WWII Italian history right now, especially this "Strategy of Tension" anni di piombo era, so I'm looking forward to someone else reading these documents and giving me an easily digestible précis for online consumption. :licklips:
Watch Il Divo :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 23, 2014, 12:48:31 PM
Watch Il Divo :)
QuoteIl Divo is an English multinational operatic pop vocal group created by music manager Simon Cowell.
:unsure:
The good advice that you just didn't take.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 12:52:19 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 23, 2014, 12:48:31 PM
Watch Il Divo :)
QuoteIl Divo is an English multinational operatic pop vocal group created by music manager Simon Cowell.
:unsure:
:P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Divo_%28film%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Divo_%28film%29)
This one is also good, based on the Roman gang that I mentioned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanzo_criminale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanzo_criminale)
It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements.
(As a tangential note, I think this link is part of what Lang's M explores, even though Ide didn't recognize it as such.)
Marx's whole theory of the lumpenproletariat came from what he saw as the decisive intervention by the Neapolitan lazzaroni in defeating the 1848 revolution and restoring the monarchy.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 01:35:37 PM
It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements.
I never thought of it that way. Do you mean in Italy or the rest of the world?
Quote from: derspiess on April 23, 2014, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 01:35:37 PM
It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements.
I never thought of it that way. Do you mean in Italy or the rest of the world?
Globally, but not universally of course.
The Act of Killing documentary from last year was mostly about the "movie theater gangsters" (controlling the cinemas showing Hollywood movies, among other rackets) who were recruited by the anti-Communist paramilitary forces in 1960s Indonesia to do their torturing and killing in the city.
Organized crime in Germany (using the front of "Ex-Convict Rehabilitation Clubs") managed to ally pretty well with the Nazi party, I think. And of course kapos in concentration camps were mostly ethnic German recidivist felons who got to exercise an enormous sway over camp life. The criminal element in occupied France and Eastern Europe was much more prone to collaborationism. (Even Soviet
vor had lots of tattoos denouncing Communism, along with anti-Semitic, Christian, and traditional Russian imagery -- though here, I don't think you can call it right-wing so much as just anti-social.]
Certainly the Mafia in America was very cooperative with conservative/nationalist/McCarthyist efforts. Not just the Italians, some of the classic-era Jewish mobsters ended up with placements on the right wing as they started to go legit.
Marx's read, which makes some sense, is that if a group is basically parasitical on the ruling class hierarchy, they're going to resist radical change. And since they're not workers, even though they're from the lower class, they don't develop the class consciousness that would align them with the left.
Also, I think left-wing movements have tended to be a bit puritanical and reluctant to engage with the seedier elements of society, even though they might profess sympathy for their situation. In the US, the whole Progressive tradition was very much against shutting down prostitution/drugs/alcohol/gambling since they saw "vice" in general as corrupting/exploiting the poor.
On the other hand, far-left groups like FARC and Sendero Luminoso are more than willing to work the organized crime to sustain themselves off of drug trade money, and organized crime is more than willing to work with them.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 01:35:37 PM
It's interesting, the way the gangster underworld has historically been linked with right-wing/authoritarian/conservative movements.
Hobsbawm is very interesting on this in Age of Revolutions. From what I remember he talks about the bandit as being tied in effect to an often legitimist rural proletariat, so they're used in opposition to urban liberals, enlightened despots and the urban proletariat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_bandit
But it is always striking that the Communist Party in Italy always did best in the economically very successful Po valley (like Red Bologna). From what I understand, by the years of lead the Christian Democrats heartland was the South and especially Sicily while the PCI were doing best in the North.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 02:48:23 PM
Certainly the Mafia in America was very cooperative with conservative/nationalist/McCarthyist efforts. Not just the Italians, some of the classic-era Jewish mobsters ended up with placements on the right wing as they started to go legit.
Can you elaborate more on this?
QuoteMarx's read, which makes some sense, is that if a group is basically parasitical on the ruling class hierarchy, they're going to resist radical change. And since they're not workers, even though they're from the lower class, they don't develop the class consciousness that would align them with the left.
I though most American gangsters, at least the Italian ones, generally had a working class identity. They didn't rush out to join CPUSA of course but that doesn't make them not working class.
And don't forget the involvement of organized crime with labor unions.
Quote from: derspiess on April 23, 2014, 03:18:14 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 02:48:23 PM
Certainly the Mafia in America was very cooperative with conservative/nationalist/McCarthyist efforts. Not just the Italians, some of the classic-era Jewish mobsters ended up with placements on the right wing as they started to go legit.
Can you elaborate more on this?
QuoteMarx's read, which makes some sense, is that if a group is basically parasitical on the ruling class hierarchy, they're going to resist radical change. And since they're not workers, even though they're from the lower class, they don't develop the class consciousness that would align them with the left.
I though most American gangsters, at least the Italian ones, generally had a working class identity. They didn't rush out to join CPUSA of course but that doesn't make them not working class.
And don't forget the involvement of organized crime with labor unions.
Yeah, I did overlook the huge union racketeering the mob was in. I don't have a lot of info off the top of my head for the anti-communist alignment of various American Mafias and Mafiosi, but I recall reading about somewhere. I'll try to search for it. Of course, the Mob helped make preparations for the American invasion of Sicily during WWII, which I suppose goes towards patriotism, if not any particular left-right valence...
Gangsters generally came from a working-class background, but I think the idea is that they were no longer part of wage-laboring proletarian class that was supposed to be revolutionary. And organized criminal life, classically, has been very aspirational in terms of conspicuous consumption, not being one of the square dupes who have to lug a lunch pail to work first thing in the morning, etc. Which would tend to undercut a working-class political identity.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 09:20:27 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2014, 08:47:38 AM
Americans. :mad:
Operation Gladio.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fe%2Fec%2FGladio.png&hash=97a20dc9284726f950d2bab14f7f5b1206947e84)
Good.
The last Republican mayor of Chicago was in Capone's pocket. They haven't elected a Republican since. Traditionally American organized crime has been anti-communist, Capone included.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2014, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 23, 2014, 09:20:27 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2014, 08:47:38 AM
Americans. :mad:
Operation Gladio.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fe%2Fec%2FGladio.png&hash=97a20dc9284726f950d2bab14f7f5b1206947e84)
Good.
We do not discuss Gladio.
Anyway, I like it when Derspeiss learns something about conservatives. Of course due to cognitive dissonance he'll forget it within a few hours, but at least he knew something for a short period of time.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2014, 04:41:36 PM
Anyway, I like it when Derspeiss learns something about conservatives. Of course due to cognitive dissonance he'll forget it within a few hours, but at least he knew something for a short period of time.
No shit. I don't even remember it now. What was it again?
I'd imagine if something like the 9/11 attacks had happened in 80s Italy, I think a lot of the nutty 9/11 conspiracies equivalents, might have had some plasuable grounding in facts.