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General Category => Off the Record => Gaming HQ => Topic started by: Syt on December 19, 2013, 10:43:22 AM

Title: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Syt on December 19, 2013, 10:43:22 AM
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/12/19/kingdom-come-promises-a-different-kind-of-rpg/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdPyK1fI6Dw

QuoteA hyper-detailed historical RPG from the main folks behind Mafia? Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Ahem. Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a nonlinear role-player set in the dying days of the Holy Roman Empire, and it features precisely zero monsters, magic, or mythical overtones. Instead, the focus is on accuracy, and who better to head up that effort than the former director of Mafia and Mafia II? Developer Warhorse is made up of vets from 2K Czech and Arma powerhouse Bohemia, so expect obsessive attention to detail. Sadly (and somewhat paradoxically) insubstantial teaser trailer below.

Despite a relative lack of information, there's incredible promise here. The pedigree alone takes me back to my days of languidly drifting down Mafia II's snow-speckled highways, breathing in the smoggy, foggy life of the setting (this despite the fact that the game itself was only sort of decent), and the prospect of a non-fantasy open-world medieval RPG has me chomping at the bit.

Kotaku thrust its noble hands into the murky depths of game development, and it emerged with a bit more info. Here are the key takeaways:

Quote"As players traverse expansive, strikingly detailed locales, they'll grapple with a range of period- accurate fighting techniques, horseback combat, open-field sieges, and large-scale battles, all while developing relationships and a reputation that will inform the greater story. Kingdom Come: Deliverance promises no magic, high fantasy or mythical overtones – it draws its inspiration instead from historically authentic characters, themes, and warfare."

Combat, meanwhile, will apparently be first-person and "revolutionary" in some form or fashion. Maybe your knight will have three arms instead of two. Or perhaps he'll be some kind of million-perspective-endowed fly mutant. The possibilities are endless.

Kingdom Come is set to (kingdom) come out in 2015, which is painfully long from now. The game's been in development for a year-and-a-half, so there's a decent amount of meat on its bones already. But then, this is clearly an undertaking of colossal ambition, so Warhorse can take all the time it needs. They have my permission, which is clearly something they would care about for some reason.

http://kingdomcomerpg.com/
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on December 19, 2013, 11:57:27 AM
This sounds Darklands inspired.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: crazy canuck on December 19, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 19, 2013, 11:57:27 AM
This sounds Darklands inspired.

That would be very nice. 
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: The Brain on December 19, 2013, 12:34:39 PM
I'm not really into Napoleonics. Meh.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on December 19, 2013, 01:10:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 19, 2013, 12:34:39 PM
I'm not really into Napoleonics. Meh.

The Holy Roman Empire was dying from 1250-1806.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Syt on December 19, 2013, 01:44:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 19, 2013, 11:57:27 AM
This sounds Darklands inspired.

With its combat focus I was more thinking Mount & Blade's 1257 mod.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on December 19, 2013, 01:54:38 PM
This is CK's impact on me: when I see the banners in the intro I immediately go: hey look the coat of arms of Silesia.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: grumbler on December 19, 2013, 06:49:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 19, 2013, 01:10:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 19, 2013, 12:34:39 PM
I'm not really into Napoleonics. Meh.

The Holy Roman Empire was dying from 1250-1806.
A "hyper-detailed historical RPG" that covers 556 years of immense change is going to suck.  They'd do better to just cover the decline of the Carolingian prequel to the Empire proper.  They could do Vikings, Magyars, Saracens, plus the first of the knights.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Josquius on December 19, 2013, 11:19:46 PM
They're speaking of the team behind Mafia as if that is a plus point?
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: 11B4V on December 23, 2013, 04:42:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 19, 2013, 10:43:22 AM
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/12/19/kingdom-come-promises-a-different-kind-of-rpg/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdPyK1fI6Dw

QuoteA hyper-detailed historical RPG from the main folks behind Mafia? Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Ahem. Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a nonlinear role-player set in the dying days of the Holy Roman Empire, and it features precisely zero monsters, magic, or mythical overtones. Instead, the focus is on accuracy, and who better to head up that effort than the former director of Mafia and Mafia II? Developer Warhorse is made up of vets from 2K Czech and Arma powerhouse Bohemia, so expect obsessive attention to detail. Sadly (and somewhat paradoxically) insubstantial teaser trailer below.

Despite a relative lack of information, there's incredible promise here. The pedigree alone takes me back to my days of languidly drifting down Mafia II's snow-speckled highways, breathing in the smoggy, foggy life of the setting (this despite the fact that the game itself was only sort of decent), and the prospect of a non-fantasy open-world medieval RPG has me chomping at the bit.

Kotaku thrust its noble hands into the murky depths of game development, and it emerged with a bit more info. Here are the key takeaways:

Quote"As players traverse expansive, strikingly detailed locales, they'll grapple with a range of period- accurate fighting techniques, horseback combat, open-field sieges, and large-scale battles, all while developing relationships and a reputation that will inform the greater story. Kingdom Come: Deliverance promises no magic, high fantasy or mythical overtones – it draws its inspiration instead from historically authentic characters, themes, and warfare."

Combat, meanwhile, will apparently be first-person and "revolutionary" in some form or fashion. Maybe your knight will have three arms instead of two. Or perhaps he'll be some kind of million-perspective-endowed fly mutant. The possibilities are endless.

Kingdom Come is set to (kingdom) come out in 2015, which is painfully long from now. The game's been in development for a year-and-a-half, so there's a decent amount of meat on its bones already. But then, this is clearly an undertaking of colossal ambition, so Warhorse can take all the time it needs. They have my permission, which is clearly something they would care about for some reason.

http://kingdomcomerpg.com/

Ambitious.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on January 02, 2014, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 19, 2013, 11:19:46 PM
They're speaking of the team behind Mafia as if that is a plus point?

Yeah that is confusing.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Caliga on February 20, 2018, 01:36:02 PM
is this game good.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Habbaku on February 20, 2018, 01:48:49 PM
you can be: holy roman empire
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Caliga on February 20, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
 :cool:
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Pedrito on February 20, 2018, 03:33:53 PM
Oh well for a moment I thought Syt was back  :(

L.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 20, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
Anyway, no I don't give money to people I know hold reprehensible views if I can help it.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 20, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 20, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
Anyway, no I don't give money to people I know hold reprehensible views if I can help it.

Meh. Who the hell knows what they really think. The constant internet drama blows everything out of proportion. Unless there is something reprehensible in the work I am not going to let it bother me.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 20, 2018, 05:00:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 20, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 20, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
Anyway, no I don't give money to people I know hold reprehensible views if I can help it.

Meh. Who the hell knows what they really think. The constant internet drama blows everything out of proportion. Unless there is something reprehensible in the work I am not going to let it bother me.

At a bare minimum, in his own words, the project lead has clearly made up his own fanciful notion of what GamerGate was about. His "apology":

QuoteToday I see my comments in a different light and would like to apologize if my points of view in individual discussions should have been better communicated by me. I'm sure I should have used a better word choice or form of communication in some cases. I wanted to contribute with my view to the above-mentioned freedom of speech and my desire to make artists work without being influenced by the opinion of other people. This is my personal opinion.

I'm not really interested in paying money to learn whether or not his views have informed his product.

Particularly not with wide reports of bugs which the "fans" note they don't worry about because they will of course be fixed over time.

Also:

https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/16/17007762/kingdom-come-deliverance-impressions

QuoteKingdom Come: Deliverance is beautiful, but boring

...

Unfortunately, after a long weekend with the game, I'm not sure I've absorbed much more than would be gained by a trip to the local Renaissance faire or a rerun of an Errol Flynn movie.

The final product, released Feb. 13 on PlayStation 4, Windows PC and Xbox One plays out across one of the most beautiful landscapes I've ever seen coming out of a computer screen. The game itself, however, is so crushingly boring, so drawn out and tedious, that I cringe every time a character opens its mouth.

And I get it. Kingdom Come was not designed to be a sword and sorcery game. I always expected it to have more in common with Farming Simulator 2017 than with The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt. The final product moves at a positively glacial pace, thereby meeting my expectations.

But the experience itself is plagued with graphical glitches and broken quests. Its writing is among the worst I've had to suffer through in some time. Both are an impediment to keeping my attention for long periods of time, or inspiring me to get down and dirty with the historical record that it provides.

That being said, let's touch on what Kingdom Come does well.

From a distance, absolutely everything feels handmade. The villages and the roads, the little castles and their surrounding baileys, the muddy streets all seem like they are truly part of the land. They flow with the contours of the hillsides and make for stunning vistas, especially at dusk and dawn. The developers went so far as to think about the drainage and add period accurate gutters. It's those little details that all come together to make the world look vibrant and lived-in.

But get too close to just about anything that moves, like an animal or a non-player character, and things begin to break down.

Many of the NPCs simply ignore you. Those that you are able to interact with tend to offer the exact same set of questions and answers from town to town. More unsettling, people somehow know my character's name even if I've never met them before. Every single NPC is fully voice-acted, which is a luxury for a game as big as Kingdom Come, but I would have traded it all for them to just stop being so creepy.

Putting the beautiful setting aside, looking past the wooden NPCs, it is a simple fact that the story in Kingdom Come is woefully bland. The game has all the moral ambiguity of an episode of Leave It To Beaver and dramatic intensity of The Lone Ranger.

The lords and their soldiers are stalwart and honorable almost to a man. The lone priest that I've met is gluttonous and snide. The foreign invaders are sub-human rapists. Women seem to have only three functions. They either perform as two-dimensional sex objects, fetch water from the river, or do needlepoint.

The game features a voluminous codex. It gives great detail on the economics and social mores of the day, but it also seems to function as a cheat sheet or something intended to backstop the otherwise hamfisted delivery of the game's narrative. It does nothing whatsoever to make me interested in the main character's plight. My parents are dead, my lord has taken a shine to me, and so far the remainder of the game's conflict has been dropped into my lap with a series of cutscenes.

I don't feel like an actor impacting a living, breathing, open world but more like a pinball trapped inside a machine.

Furthermore, Kingdom Come has a painful pacing problem. I spent fully four hours with the game when the action stopped and the title sequence rolled by. What I thought was the tutorial was, in actuality, the preamble to the tutorial. I spent another six hours before encountering the first real questline, at which point it had become increasingly difficult to maintain my suspension of disbelief.

I remember at one point that, while out hunting with a young lord, I shot a deer full of arrows. It neither started nor showed any discomfort at all. Only when I ran up to within spitting distance did it consider me to be a threat. Later, to save money on a night at the local inn, I just broke into a recently widowed woman's house and slept on the bed next to her. In the morning, I found her walking the grounds outside as though nothing happened.

The next night I tried the same thing and she had me arrested.

On a functional level, the quest writing and scripting leaves a lot to be desired. Not only is the dialogue itself blandly written at a micro level, at times the quests themselves are confusing.

At one point, I spent a full real-world hour wandering in the woods looking for someone. Only after traveling past the next town over did I begin to think that I might simply have been given bad directions by an NPC. So I went back to them and used bribery instead of intimidation to open up the only part of their dialogue tree that I hadn't ventured down yet. It cost me 20 percent of my gold to find out, but sure enough after I used my bribery skill I found the correct instructions that allowed me to quickly wrap up the quest.

These kinds of things happen in RPGs, especially at a game's launch. Nobody's perfect, and you would imagine that something like this would get patched out over time. Adding insult to injury, however, when I returned to the part of the map where the quest giver was standing I was unceremoniously told that the quest had failed. I did my part, struggling through an awkward dialogue tree. The least that the game could do was reward me, but it failed at even that simple courtesy.

Add to the experience a laundry list of animation and graphical glitches — horses that get hung up on bushes or trapped inside stalls, characters that teleport around the room during conversations and clipping issues with hair, hands, clothing, weapons and horse tack — and Kingdom Come might seem like more trouble than it's worth. Surprisingly, it's the combat system that keeps me coming back.

This is absolutely not a sword and sorcery game, nor was I expecting one. But it makes a point to hamstring you from the start. You will get a sword, but it will be taken away almost immediately. You'll spend a considerable amount of time with a pointy stick before you can manage to come by another one. But swinging that stick is actually a lot of fun.

I was first introduced to Kingdom Come's brand of historical European martial arts, or HEMA, at last year's E3. It was awful, and I cycled through three members of the development team before I found one who could both explain it to me and perform it for me on screen. The system that shipped with the final game is infinitely more playable.

More importantly, it feels authentic. I've spent time with one of the best HEMA instructors in the midwest and I can tell you that many of the tips delivered by Kingdom Come's NPCs sound familiar. Abbreviated and awkwardly delivered, to be sure, but there are some common themes: Be light on your feet, keep moving, feint your attacks and strike with a purpose. The game's animations and Simon-like combat system competently supports HEMA as I understand it. Openings for attack and opportunities for defense are emoted well, and the movement in the head of your own avatar, both when they strike and are struck, contributes nicely.

This game's weapons feel lovingly crafted, and each of them tends to give combat a different flavor. Fighting against someone carrying a polearm is very different than battling someone with a mace, for instance, and keeping the proper distance at any given time is key to landing your blows and maintaining a defense. If anything, I wish the game had made me slightly more skilled from the beginning. It took me more than 15 hours of play to even begin to feel competent.

The game is also not without its controversies. Warhorse is a team of more than 150 people, but the game's creative director has gone out of his way to rationalize his support of GamerGate, a loosely knit hate group that has devoted time to harassing women, people of color and journalists in the past. So outspoken is the studio's leadership on cultural issues that they have found it necessary to work with a German outlet to publish anti-fascist, anti-sexist and anti-racist statements prior to their game's launch.

So, if you're planning to pick up Kingdom Come: Deliverance, know what you're getting going in. It is a beautiful world, but also an immature, awkward thing both in its technical construction and its narrative themes. It has a robust and engaging combat system, but it will take you a while to uncover them and require that you struggle through an otherwise uneven game.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 20, 2018, 05:20:19 PM
Wow what a reprehensible view you quoted  :mellow:

I think there are ways to determine that without actually buying the game.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 20, 2018, 05:36:57 PM
Clearly you think differently but personally I dislike when people make up silly reasons for why they supported something reprehensible and then offer non-apologies.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 20, 2018, 05:39:49 PM
Anyway, the primary reason that I'm uninterested is that the game actually sounds like a buggy, boring mess. Best acquired when on a deeply discounted sale.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Ed Anger on February 20, 2018, 08:38:52 PM
QuoteWomen seem to have only three functions. They either perform as two-dimensional sex objects, fetch water from the river, or do needlepoint.

Sold!

(Not really. Sounds boring.)
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 20, 2018, 08:46:42 PM
That review certainly isn't exactly an endorsement.  :lol:

Fortunately if I do play this game it will be months from now so there will be plenty of reviews from people I trust out there.

It would be great to have a historical RPG out there so I hope it doesn't suck but we will see. Nobody has answered my question if I can fight on freaking horseback yet  :P
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2018, 02:58:17 AM
I like it. If you remove uber hott witches who just can't get their hands off the protagonist and magical assassins from the picture, the ladies in the game seem to be serving the exact same functions as in Witcher.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2018, 02:59:50 AM
That said, most characters are two-dimensional yes, but somehow it works. It's a bit of a fairytale/idealised version of medieval times, but has ambience, the combat is fun once you got used to it, and I found it refreshing to be the regular underdog, in the early game, anyways.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: The Brain on February 21, 2018, 03:30:20 AM
QuoteI just broke into a recently widowed woman's house and slept on the bed next to her. In the morning, I found her walking the grounds outside as though nothing happened.

The next night I tried the same thing and she had me arrested.

So both the developer and the reviewer are creepy as fuck? It's nice that they're BFFs.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 21, 2018, 03:49:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 21, 2018, 02:59:50 AM
That said, most characters are two-dimensional yes, but somehow it works. It's a bit of a fairytale/idealised version of medieval times, but has ambience, the combat is fun once you got used to it, and I found it refreshing to be the regular underdog, in the early game, anyways.

I've heard that mentioned a few times and am a little confused by what that means. Isn't starting as an underdog one of the commons starts in video games?
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Tamas on February 21, 2018, 07:38:08 AM
It works better here for some reason. Probably because of the combination of the combat model and the save system. At the start I would running for dear life when in a random encounter two brigands in plain clothes and armed with axes tried to rob me. While now these surrender the moment I draw my sword, I still think twice before I get into a fight.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Glad you are enjoying it, Tamas. People who are fortunate to not have performance issues seem to be enjoying it so far.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 05:46:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2018, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 05:46:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

I honestly don't understand why something stapled as "realistic" medieval game (let's not get into the details on that) should portrait women as having the same rights and level of equality as 21st century ones. That is an anti-feminist narrative if anything, because it invalidates a fight for equality, since according to that narrative, the inequality never existed.

Telling the story of how extraordinary women got around those limitations would be much more interesting but such stories should emphasise the horrible odds those women overcame, and shouldn't hide how most of them were able to - usually their talent was not enough, they had to get close to positions of power as mothers or wives/concubines of men with power. Showing that picture, and thus explaining how constant vigilance is necessary to maintain and improve the hard-won rights of women, is a far healthier message and approach IMHO than pretending that a woman in 1403 could just enter traditional male roles without issue.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: The Brain on February 22, 2018, 07:04:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 22, 2018, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 05:46:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

I honestly don't understand why something stapled as "realistic" medieval game (let's not get into the details on that) should portrait women as having the same rights and level of equality as 21st century ones. That is an anti-feminist narrative if anything, because it invalidates a fight for equality, since according to that narrative, the inequality never existed.

Telling the story of how extraordinary women got around those limitations would be much more interesting but such stories should emphasise the horrible odds those women overcame, and shouldn't hide how most of them were able to - usually their talent was not enough, they had to get close to positions of power as mothers or wives/concubines of men with power. Showing that picture, and thus explaining how constant vigilance is necessary to maintain and improve the hard-won rights of women, is a far healthier message and approach IMHO than pretending that a woman in 1403 could just enter traditional male roles without issue.

Someone slept in gender studies class.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 09:45:41 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 05:46:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?


While exploring the Muslim world might be fun, I hope they will stick to Bohemian women.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Barrister on February 22, 2018, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 22, 2018, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 05:46:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Supposedly there will be a DLC where you can be a woman. That would be pretty awesome.

Medieval chattel slavery simulator?

I honestly don't understand why something stapled as "realistic" medieval game (let's not get into the details on that) should portrait women as having the same rights and level of equality as 21st century ones. That is an anti-feminist narrative if anything, because it invalidates a fight for equality, since according to that narrative, the inequality never existed.

Telling the story of how extraordinary women got around those limitations would be much more interesting but such stories should emphasise the horrible odds those women overcame, and shouldn't hide how most of them were able to - usually their talent was not enough, they had to get close to positions of power as mothers or wives/concubines of men with power. Showing that picture, and thus explaining how constant vigilance is necessary to maintain and improve the hard-won rights of women, is a far healthier message and approach IMHO than pretending that a woman in 1403 could just enter traditional male roles without issue.

I think the argument is that what we think the role of women was in late medieval europe was is not entirely correct - that we're more confusing it with a more 19th century perspective when women had far fewer rights when compared to the 15th century.

Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: grumbler on February 22, 2018, 01:40:01 PM
A female serf would be utterly uninteresting, but one could create a realistic but still, perhaps, interesting woman's role from the artisan class.  I seem to recall that brewers were mostly (perhaps just in England, but I suspect not) women, and generally these women were the wives of bakers (thus having access to yeast and grains). 

Maybe our heroine could be wandering the Bohemian countryside collecting beer recipes?  :D
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 22, 2018, 01:40:01 PM
A female serf would be utterly uninteresting, but one could create a realistic but still, perhaps, interesting woman's role from the artisan class.  I seem to recall that brewers were mostly (perhaps just in England, but I suspect not) women, and generally these women were the wives of bakers (thus having access to yeast and grains). 

Maybe our heroine could be wandering the Bohemian countryside collecting beer recipes?  :D

I think she would be similar to the male character in the main game. I mean he was a blacksmith but we didn't spend the whole game shoeing horses. The war will screw her life up and we deal with the consequences.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2018, 01:33:50 PM
I think the argument is that what we think the role of women was in late medieval europe was is not entirely correct - that we're more confusing it with a more 19th century perspective when women had far fewer rights when compared to the 15th century.

Relying on stereotypes instead of exploring a topic is pretty tiresome.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Oexmelin on February 22, 2018, 02:02:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 22, 2018, 01:33:50 PM
I think the argument is that what we think the role of women was in late medieval europe was is not entirely correct - that we're more confusing it with a more 19th century perspective when women had far fewer rights when compared to the 15th century.

Precisely. Already the issue of "rights" is anachronistic, for there were many legal regimes throughout Europe, and many of them granted equal rights of inheritance to women, the capacity to deal with, and preserve, their own property. As grumbler suggests, the story of how a male serf would suddenly rise to be a noble hero would be similarly extraordinary, yet I have a suspicion that this game's designers would be much less bothered by it than by the suggestion of a woman warrior.

Of course, extolling the virtues of strength and martial prowess, and patriarchal supremacy meant that violence against women, and silencing women's voices, were considered much more "normal" and thus, unremarkable. This I feel would indeed make a compelling story. But it would not prevent the existence of strong female characters - craftswomen, artisans, matriarchs, wisewomen/midwives, strong noblewomen with powerless husband. One can read, for instance, about Mahaut, countess of Artois, who led her own vassals on the battlefield; of Jeanne of Albret, a sharp mind who towers over her husband martial activity.

But, as garbon said, the game strikes me - superificially - as quite immature, both as a game, and as story/character, infused with the passion of a child for the Middle Ages: sword fights are cool, villains are evil, and heroes are noble, and women are icky. 
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 02:05:46 PM
That idea is out there but we'll see. As I said the promise was that the first DLC would be a story where you play as a woman.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 22, 2018, 02:06:47 PM
Until a studio has proven they can deliver the goods, I'm wary of any claims that things will be fixed in patches or available as DLC.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 22, 2018, 02:02:50 PMOf course, extolling the virtues of strength and martial prowess, and patriarchal supremacy meant that violence against women, and silencing women's voices, were considered much more "normal" and thus, unremarkable. This I feel would indeed make a compelling story. But it would not prevent the existence of strong female characters - craftswomen, artisans, matriarchs, wisewomen/midwives, strong noblewomen with powerless husband. One can read, for instance, about Mahaut, countess of Artois, who led her own vassals on the battlefield; of Jeanne of Albret, a sharp mind who towers over her husband martial activity.

Yeah there was never a well documented time in history, at least in Euroland, where there were not lots of important and influential women out there doing things. The stereotypes that they were all property and slaves annoys me, I mean it was pretty backwards and regressive by our standards in most ways but still...

Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 02:09:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 22, 2018, 02:06:47 PM
Until a studio has proven they can deliver the goods, I'm wary of any claims that things will be fixed in patches or available as DLC.

And you should be. We have people on this board playing the game. Let's see what they say.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 02:14:00 PM
I do like the idea of a story where your gender matters. Not because I necessarily want games to make it a big deal in general but it is fun to do it from time to time. So I hope they do have a female-only story-line. I mean...unless it sucks.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 08:02:12 PM
The thing is, we already have about 103853984675839 stories where women are treated as lesser beings. I don't see why we need another one.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Alcibiades on February 22, 2018, 08:41:26 PM
It's pretty good.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Ed Anger on February 22, 2018, 08:56:11 PM
I hope there is a Gor mod.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 10:12:10 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 08:02:12 PM
The thing is, we already have about 103853984675839 stories where women are treated as lesser beings. I don't see why we need another one.


Well I disagree that every story must be about a perfect utopia. That sounds pretty boring. Nor do I think erasing women from history and stories that take place in history is super awesome. You clearly disagree. But I will never agree with such an absurdity.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on February 23, 2018, 12:56:44 AM
 :hmm:

After wandering around for a while, I started the main quest.  At one point they gave me a free horse, but I already own one (Rocinante  :)).  How do you switch back and forth between horses? 

I had to ride Pebbles to the place for the quest, but when I whistled, Rocinante came running up to me, so that doesn't seem to change the default.  Are they kept at the stables and you switch them up there or what?
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 23, 2018, 12:57:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 10:12:10 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 08:02:12 PM
The thing is, we already have about 103853984675839 stories where women are treated as lesser beings. I don't see why we need another one.


Well I disagree that every story must be about a perfect utopia. That sounds pretty boring. Nor do I think erasing women from history and stories that take place in history is super awesome. You clearly disagree. But I will never agree with such an absurdity.

Glad to see you'll trot out arguments to swat down that no one is making in defense of a game you haven't played.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Solmyr on February 23, 2018, 04:35:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2018, 12:57:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 22, 2018, 10:12:10 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 22, 2018, 08:02:12 PM
The thing is, we already have about 103853984675839 stories where women are treated as lesser beings. I don't see why we need another one.


Well I disagree that every story must be about a perfect utopia. That sounds pretty boring. Nor do I think erasing women from history and stories that take place in history is super awesome. You clearly disagree. But I will never agree with such an absurdity.

Glad to see you'll trot out arguments to swat down that no one is making in defense of a game you haven't played.

Yeah, nice strawman there from Valmy. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 27, 2018, 01:03:16 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on February 23, 2018, 04:35:06 AM
Yeah, nice strawman there from Valmy. :rolleyes:

Not a strawman. You said a game that explores the Middle Ages means women are lesser beings. That is absurd. If you did not mean that feel free to actually explain your points rather than just tossing around garbage political rhetoric that serves more to obscure than explain.

I see no basis to interpret your statement as anything but that :hmm:

Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2018, 12:57:39 AM
Glad to see you'll trot out arguments to swat down that no one is making in defense of a game you haven't played.

I am not defending the game at all, Just the concept of it. Solmyr has not played it either, he is only attacking the concept. The game might suck. But I appreciate the idea of it, having a historically accurate RPG, even if it fails. I have only ever asked that you keep an open mind about it rather than being distracted by this internet hype.

I also fail to see how that argument was not made.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 27, 2018, 01:46:55 AM
Anyway this was a pretty good first impression from Metatron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhfPsSx6DBU

Seems like it is probably a good thing it will be a few months before I could play it. It is 36 minutes long so TL:DW is that the physical locations are amazingly done (and the historian who assisted them had her specialty in primarily this area) but there are some inaccuracies with regard to clothing and how some of the characters act (in his opinion anyway). Several of the systems do not seem to work very well, the horse (though I was glad you can at least fight on it even if not really functionally) and the usual stuff with the save game thing and the bugs.

I did like seeing that Cuman horse archer using his compound bow. That was sweet.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: garbon on February 27, 2018, 02:45:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 27, 2018, 01:03:16 AM
Not a strawman. You said a game that explores the Middle Ages means women are lesser beings. That is absurd. If you did not mean that feel free to actually explain your points rather than just tossing around garbage political rhetoric that serves more to obscure than explain.

I'll leave that to Sol but will say that try as I could I can't find a post from Sol that notes what you've said above.

Quote from: Valmy on February 27, 2018, 01:03:16 AMI am not defending the game at all, Just the concept of it. Solmyr has not played it either, he is only attacking the concept. The game might suck. But I appreciate the idea of it, having a historically accurate RPG, even if it fails. I have only ever asked that you keep an open mind about it rather than being distracted by this internet hype.

I also fail to see how that argument was not made.

I feel like you have taken the wrong lesson from the era of fake news. As always, we are supposed to view information presented with a critical lens rather than simply be passive recipients. That doesn't mean that we ignore what reviews* tell us or things that the designer says himself. 

I don't see anyone saying you can't like the game concept or even the game himself. I do so people saying why they take issue with the game concept as it appears to have been executed.

*although I guess you are selective on that front as I see you've now linked to a video review that you like that has praise for it.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Tamas on February 27, 2018, 04:37:29 AM
So what is the original criticism of the game's content here anyways? Or is it just about the main dev being a sexist ahole?
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Ancient Demon on February 27, 2018, 09:43:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 27, 2018, 04:37:29 AM
Or is it just about the main dev being a sexist ahole?

What did he say that was sexist?
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Ancient Demon on February 27, 2018, 09:56:52 PM
It looks like the game is quite buggy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdlHwzrNb_w
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on February 28, 2018, 01:49:45 PM
Meh, seems mostly fine for me, as far as open world games go.  I don't think I've had all that many crashes, actually, let alone game breaking bugs. 

The "realism" arguments are dumb though imo.  OMG YOU HAVE TO EAT AND SLEEP AND WASH YOURSELF.  I just barge in to peoples houses to eat their stew most of the time, completely sterilize my clothes using troughs (to be fair, I've modded this and cleanliness in general so that Henry stops being that dirty kid from Charlie Brown, because in the original game he apparently rolls everywhere instead of walking), and sleep in whatever bed I want.  You can also make and drink potions that do things like increase your armor or bow skills or make you stealthy.  Yep.  Just like real life.  :rolleyes: 

It's fun though.  I've already got a number of mods running on it, the most important for me being the save game thing and the improved targeting.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 28, 2018, 08:58:09 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on February 28, 2018, 01:49:45 PM
It's fun though.  I've already got a number of mods running on it, the most important for me being the save game thing and the improved targeting.

Does it make fighting on horseback and using bows possible?

The eating and sleeping stuff seems like it would give the game a survival game element rather than be hyper-realistic. I mean unless you need a few weeks to convalesce after a major injury.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on February 28, 2018, 10:30:10 PM
Fighting from horseback is weird.  There's only, at least from what I've seen, kind of a backward slash and the ability to use the bow from your horse.  I don't tend to partake unless I'm running down some peasant or another.  Mount & Blade is better for this.

I should add the bow reticle to my list of mods that are indispensable. 

For injuries, you can get fucked up in a fight and recover by sleeping.  It isn't realistic.  While you're fighting though it can be pretty intense.  When you take a hit it knocks down your stamina and health, so you have a harder time both fighting and running.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: Valmy on February 28, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on February 28, 2018, 10:30:10 PM
Mount & Blade is better for this.

A game from 2008 is still state of the art. That's progress for you.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on February 28, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
Hey if it's done right, it's done right.

Bannerlord will probably never be released, so keep stabbing people from horseback while you can.
Title: Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Post by: MadBurgerMaker on March 12, 2018, 10:16:41 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on February 28, 2018, 01:49:45 PMMeh, seems mostly fine for me, as far as open world games go.  I don't think I've had all that many crashes, actually, let alone game breaking bugs.

This is wrong now, after the latest patch.  I've been getting a lot of crashes and shitty bugs, even without mods. 

I'm trying to figure out how to roll it back to the previous patch.