What a day it has been for teachable moments. I think we all learned you can't reboot your relationship with an evil empire:
QuoteObama says 'pause' needed to assess Russian relations
By Jill Dougherty
Two days after calling off a meeting with Russian president Vladimir Putin in Moscow, President Barack Obama said Friday he is re-evaluating the entire U.S./Russia relationship.
Obama, speaking at a White House news conference, seemed ready for a more rocky relationship with the Kremlin.
"It is probably appropriate for us to take a pause, reassess where it is that Russia's going, what our core interests are, and calibrate the relationship so that we're doing things that are good for the United States and hopefully good for Russia as well, but recognizing that there are just going to be some differences and we're not going to be able to completely disguise them, and that's ok."
Obama told reporters his decision not to participate in the Moscow summit next month went beyond Russia's decision to give temporary asylum to admitted National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden.
"It had to do with the fact that, frankly, on a whole range of issues where we think we can make some progress Russia has not moved," he said. "And so, we don't consider that strictly punitive."
Obama appeared to blame much of the deterioration in relations on Putin.
When Putin "came back into power," Obama noted, "I think we saw more rhetoric on the Russian side that was anti-American, that played into some of the old stereotypes about the Cold War contest between the United States and Russia. And I've encouraged Mr. Putin to think forward as opposed to backwards on those issues, with mixed success."
Obama insisted, however, that he didn't have a bad relationship with his counterpart.
"When we have conversations they are candid, they are blunt, often times they are constructive," he said.
Speaking in unusually personal terms, Obama added: "I know the press likes to focus on body language and he's got that kinda slouch, looking like the bored kid in the back of the classroom, but the truth is that when we are in conversations together oftentimes it's very productive."
Speaking to reporters after Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel met with their Russian counterparts at the State Department, the president said the "latest episode" - the disagreement over Snowden - "is just one more in a number of emerging differences that we've seen over the last several months around Syria, around human rights issues."
Criticizing the Kremlin's approach, he said: "If issues are framed as 'if U.S. is for it, then Russia should be against it,' or 'we're going to be finding ways where we can poke each other at every opportunity,' then probably we don't get as much stuff done."
Obama said his administration will continue working with Russia, but added: "Where we have differences, we're going to say so clearly and my hope is, is that over time, Mr. Putin and Russia recognize that rather than a zero sum competition, in fact, if the two countries are working together, we can probably advance the betterment of both peoples."
At a news conference following the State Department meeting, Russia's foreign minister defended its handling of the Snowden affair, insisting that Moscow had based its decision to grant temporary amnesty on Russian law and international law, noting that Russia and the U.S. do not have an extradition treaty.
"We only adhere to the current legislation that is in place in the Russian Federation," Sergey Lavrov said. "We never violated any part of it. We do realize that there is so much emotion focused around this matter, but this is not a matter that could undermine or somehow threaten the general strategic stability."
"Snowden did not overshadow our discussions," he insisted, adding that the issue should not affect relations between the two countries.
The United States wants Snowden returned to the United States to face charges under the Espionage Act.
Lavrov went out of his way to insist the Obama/Putin summit was not "canceled" by the White House: "Once again, I would like to correct you when you say that the meeting was cancelled," he told one reporter. "The announcement said postponed, and that's what was confirmed to us."
In a briefing with reporters, U.S. official said the United States wants a summit with Putin but "substance has to be there" on a number of issues.
Obama was asked whether the United States should boycott the 2014 Winter Olympics which Russia is hosting in the Black Sea resort of Sochi as a protest over Russia's anti-gay propaganda law. He said he did not think a boycott is "appropriate."
"We have a bunch of Americans out there who are training hard, who are doing everything they can to succeed," he said. "No one is more offended than me by some of the anti-gay and lesbian legislation that you've been seeing in Russia."
"One of the things I'm really looking forward to," he said, "is maybe some gay and lesbian athletes bringing home the gold or silver or bronze which, I think, would go a long way in rejecting the kinds of attitudes that we are seeing there. And if Russia doesn't have gay or lesbian athletes then it will probably make their team weaker."
Syria isn't going well and Snowden turned into an embarrassment for the US. What's past is prologue, though, what should Barack do going forward concerning US relations with Russia?
Just keep pushing more buttons.
Marry the oldest daughter to him and unite the families against their foes.
Whoops, too much CK2.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 13, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
Marry the oldest daughter to him and unite the families against their foes.
Whoops, too much CK2.
That could work. Malia is fifteen and Poutine just had his wife exiled to a convent.
Needs more shirtless pics of Putin doing manly things.
I've got it: just sit down and talk face to face. I have it on good authority that diplomacy works wonders. And we have the great good fortune to have one of the foremost proponents of diplomacy running our foreign affairs. :)
Needs more Midnight Basketball.
Snowden is an American hero!
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 13, 2013, 03:06:40 PM
Snowden is an American hero!
That may be, but Obama's public request for Russian assistance only to have Russia offer Snowden asylum was a diplomatic embarrassment.
I agree with Yi. You don't conduct effective diplomacy with euphemisms and metaphor. There is where the downside of Obama the politician appears - messaging and spin can only take you so far.
It is a bad move to try to "pause" Russian relations over (at least in part) Snowden. Even domestically Snowden has a considerable base of support.
Snowden's heart needs to be paused. With a bit of lead.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 13, 2013, 04:09:42 PM
I agree with Yi. You don't conduct effective diplomacy with euphemisms and metaphor. There is where the downside of Obama the politician appears - messaging and spin can only take you so far.
I said it in 2008 and I'll say it now, heir to Blair :wub:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 13, 2013, 04:09:42 PM
There is where the downside of Obama the politician appears - messaging and spin can only take you so far.
You know what they say about hammers and nails.
The thing with Russia is that they want to be relevant on the world stage and assert themselves, while at the same time not trusting anyone and thinking everyone is out to get them. And when they get negative responses to the stuff they pull, they feel confirmed in their paranoia.
Russia's overrated. It's Venezuela with nukes.
If we strike today, we could pause US relations with Russia indefinitely.
Quote from: Syt on August 13, 2013, 11:07:36 PM
The thing with Russia is that they want to be relevant on the world stage and assert themselves, while at the same time not trusting anyone and thinking everyone is out to get them. And when they get negative responses to the stuff they pull, they feel confirmed in their paranoia.
That's a pretty good way to put it, and that applies to Russians as well.
One amusing example I recall is watching some Discovery Channel program translated into Russian on Youtube. There was one mistake in that show, and the Russian commenters had two possible explanations. Either Americans were very stupid and uneducated, or it that they were very smart and clever, and that it was just part of the information war against them. The mistake in question? Some talking head said that KV-2 gun had a 155 mm caliber, whereas in reality it had a 152 mm caliber.
:lol:
Quote from: DGuller on August 13, 2013, 11:14:56 PM
One amusing example I recall is watching some Discovery Channel program translated into Russian on Youtube. There was one mistake in that show, and the Russian commenters had two possible explanations. Either Americans were very stupid and uneducated, or it that they were very smart and clever, and that it was just part of the information war against them. The mistake in question? Some talking head said that KV-2 gun had a 155 mm caliber, whereas in reality it had a 152 mm caliber.
That's the great, predictable thing about the Russians when it comes to being a threat vector: they haven't changed their outlook since 1947, and still believe the FBI and the CIA are behind everything.
Quote from: DGuller on August 13, 2013, 11:14:56 PM
That's a pretty good way to put it, and that applies to Russians as well.
One amusing example I recall is watching some Discovery Channel program translated into Russian on Youtube. There was one mistake in that show, and the Russian commenters had two possible explanations. Either Americans were very stupid and uneducated, or it that they were very smart and clever, and that it was just part of the information war against them. The mistake in question? Some talking head said that KV-2 gun had a 155 mm caliber, whereas in reality it had a 152 mm caliber.
Have they translated Honey Boo-Boo yet? What is the Russian take on that?
That's what I like about Russia, it's a whole country with a mental illness. So when I start obsessing over a spot on the ceiling or have some other crazy thoughts it's a little comforting to know that on the other side of the world there a place where everyone is stark raving mad and the only sane people either leave or are put into psychiatric hospitals.
We just need to send Putin an iPod loaded with Obama speeches as a birthday gift. That will heal our diplomatic rift.
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2013, 09:37:50 AM
We just need to send Putin an iPod loaded with Obama speeches as a birthday gift. That will heal our diplomatic rift.
Maybe Obama needs to look into Putin's eyes and and see his soul.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2013, 09:37:50 AM
We just need to send Putin an iPod loaded with Obama speeches as a birthday gift. That will heal our diplomatic rift.
Maybe Obama needs to look into Putin's eyes and and see his soul.
It's worth a try. It seemed to work for a little while.
The CIA needs to send to Putin a Rasputin to transfix him and make him suggestable to pro-US thoughts.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2013, 09:37:50 AM
We just need to send Putin an iPod loaded with Obama speeches as a birthday gift. That will heal our diplomatic rift.
Maybe Obama needs to look into Putin's eyes and and see his soul.
:lol: Naive-sounding platitudes or extreme narcissism? I guess door #3 would have to be better.
I say let's invade before they get their game together.
After all, we are almost a level 2 omnivorous civilization, and all omnivorous civilizations self-destruct before reaching level 1.
Quote from: Siege on August 14, 2013, 07:31:55 PM
After all, we are almost a level 2 omnivorous civilization, and all omnivorous civilizations self-destruct before reaching level 1.
Exactly.
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2013, 07:25:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2013, 09:37:50 AM
We just need to send Putin an iPod loaded with Obama speeches as a birthday gift. That will heal our diplomatic rift.
Maybe Obama needs to look into Putin's eyes and and see his soul.
:lol: Naive-sounding platitudes or extreme narcissism? I guess door #3 would have to be better.
Extreme narcissism? Is that the new Conservative claim?
His gift to the queen was pretty widely panned at the time Raz. Wasn't just "a Conservative thing."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 05:33:17 AM
His gift to the queen was pretty widely panned at the time Raz. Wasn't just "a Conservative thing."
Of course.
:hmm: I don't get how of course and your question to Speesh go together.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 06:38:34 AM
:hmm: I don't get how of course and your question to Speesh go together.
I was saying of course to you.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 07:24:41 AM
I was saying of course to you.
Sure. How can you on the one hand agree that an iPod of his own speeches was a goofy present but claim that on the other that an accusation of narcissism is "a conservative thing?"
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 05:01:18 AM
Extreme narcissism? Is that the new Conservative claim?
Pretty old one, actually. It's been rarely heard since Obama murdered all those diplomats in Benghazi.
The ipod contained mostly video from the Queen's prior visists to the US. It also contained 2 audio recordings of Obama speeches.
Since I assume that Obama himself did not personally decide on the gift, choose the content and load it on the ipad, but rather those decisions are made by WH and/or State Dept protocol staff, it is kind of silly to accuse him personally of narcissism over this particular incident.
Black Hitler.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2013, 10:11:16 AM
The ipod contained mostly video from the Queen's prior visists to the US. It also contained 2 audio recordings of Obama speeches.
Since I assume that Obama himself did not personally decide on the gift, choose the content and load it on the ipad, but rather those decisions are made by WH and/or State Dept protocol staff, it is kind of silly to accuse him personally of narcissism over this particular incident.
Sure. Just like we can't blame him or credit him for his speeches, since he doesn't write those.
It was a pretty dumbass gift whether it was initiated by Obama or not, just like it was spectacularly dumb for him to win the Noble prize for, hmm, existing.
The Nobel was for not being Bush.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 11:28:05 AM
The Nobel was for not being Bush.
I'm not sure Hillary or McCain would have won it if either of them became president.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 11:28:05 AM
The Nobel was for not being Bush.
Meh Carter already got a prize for that.
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2013, 11:39:09 AM
Meh Carter already got a prize for that.
So did Algore and that Egyptian nukalar dude. Bush is the gift that keeps on giving.
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2013, 11:39:09 AM
Meh Carter already got a prize for that.
At least Carter had done peaceish things, even if some of them were horribly misguided.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 07:24:41 AM
I was saying of course to you.
Sure. How can you on the one hand agree that an iPod of his own speeches was a goofy present but claim that on the other that an accusation of narcissism is "a conservative thing?"
Goofy doesn't equal narcissism. Of course it may in conservative doublethink, where a man can be an Athiest and a Muslim, a Communist and a Nazi, receive welfare as a child and come from a privileged background etc.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Goofy doesn't equal narcissism.
You're right. But there were plenty of people who thought it was presumptious and self centered and nacissistic to give the queen recordings of his own speeches.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Goofy doesn't equal narcissism.
You're right. But there were plenty of people who thought it was presumptious and self centered and nacissistic to give the queen recordings of his own speeches.
Of course.
So plenty of people thought that, but it's still a conservative thing.
It was a magnificent gift. Without we Brits would never have had the joy of learning that the WH protocol chief is called Randy Bumgardner.
I have this image in my head that I can't get out every time I read this thread title. I see Obama sitting in front of a panel full of unmarked buttons pressing random ones until he hits the right or the wrong one.
"What's this one with the circle do? OH NO MAH TAPE."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 03:51:26 PM
So plenty of people thought that, but it's still a conservative thing.
Yeah. Plenty of people are conservatives. I don't disagree with that. I'm just amused by ever growing list of invectives tossed at the President. Who would have thought that a complete monster with no redeeming qualities could be elected President of the US?
Raz, stop picking on Nixon, it'll just upset Neil.
Maybe Obama could play 15 games of spades with Putin.
Man, I want to play spades. Never was particularly good at poker, but with a decent partner I was dynamite at spades. Turns out it was never hugely popular outside of my high school. <_<
15 games of Magic the gathering. Or Pokemon.
Pootie likely has a Black Lotus. Mint.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 05:55:04 PM
Yeah. Plenty of people are conservatives. I don't disagree with that. I'm just amused by ever growing list of invectives tossed at the President. Who would have thought that a complete monster with no redeeming qualities could be elected President of the US?
So now only conservatives thought Obama's gift was narcissistic? Before you agreed that it wasn't just conservatives.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 06:31:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 05:55:04 PM
Yeah. Plenty of people are conservatives. I don't disagree with that. I'm just amused by ever growing list of invectives tossed at the President. Who would have thought that a complete monster with no redeeming qualities could be elected President of the US?
So now only conservatives thought Obama's gift was narcissistic? Before you agreed that it wasn't just conservatives.
I was patronizing you.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2013, 03:58:19 PM
It was a magnificent gift. Without we Brits would never have had the joy of learning that the WH protocol chief is called Randy Bumgardner.
:lol:
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2013, 06:14:00 PM
Maybe Obama could play 15 games of spades with Putin.
Your racist bullshit never ends.
:lol:
Of course Obama is a narcissist. He's a politician, and one who ran for presidency, and won.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 07:24:41 AM
I was saying of course to you.
Sure. How can you on the one hand agree that an iPod of his own speeches was a goofy present but claim that on the other that an accusation of narcissism is "a conservative thing?"
Goofy doesn't equal narcissism. Of course it may in conservative doublethink, where a man can be an Athiest and a Muslim, a Communist and a Nazi, receive welfare as a child and come from a privileged background etc.
Pretty easy for that last one to be true. And it doesn't require any doublethink, conservative or otherwise, just crappy eligibility rules (or a bit of fraud).
Quote from: dps on August 15, 2013, 10:26:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2013, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2013, 07:24:41 AM
I was saying of course to you.
Sure. How can you on the one hand agree that an iPod of his own speeches was a goofy present but claim that on the other that an accusation of narcissism is "a conservative thing?"
Goofy doesn't equal narcissism. Of course it may in conservative doublethink, where a man can be an Athiest and a Muslim, a Communist and a Nazi, receive welfare as a child and come from a privileged background etc.
Pretty easy for that last one to be true. And it doesn't require any doublethink, conservative or otherwise, just crappy eligibility rules (or a bit of fraud).
Or a czar and a white house appointee.