http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/04/gibraltar-comments-madrid-london-uk-spain
QuoteGibraltar 'the party is over' comments from Madrid raise concerns in London
Foreign Office vows to safeguard British sovereignty over Rock after Spanish minister escalates row, promising a harder line
The Foreign Office voiced "concern" on Sunday night following comments from the Spanish foreign minister, which appear to suggest Madrid is preparing to take a harder line in the escalating dispute over Gibraltar.
In an interview with the Spanish newspaper ABC, José García-Margallo criticised the conciliatory stance taken by the previous government towards the Mediterranean outpost saying, "The party is over".
The minister suggested a €50 (£43.40) fee could be imposed on every vehicle entering or leaving the territory, known as the Rock, via the border with Spain. The minister said the proceeds would be used to help Spanish fishermen affected by damage to fishing grounds allegedly caused by the Gibraltarian authorities. Such a fee would be a punitive cost on residents who regularly commute to Spain for work.
Spain is also considering closing its airspace to flights heading to Gibraltar, and changing the law so that online gaming companies operating from the British overseas territory have to use Spanish servers and come under the jurisdiction of Madrid's taxation regime, García-Margallo said. He also indicated that the Spanish tax authorities may launch an investigation into property owned by about 6,000 Gibraltarians in neighbouring parts of Spain, as part of its EU obligations to control "fiscal irregularities".
Spain disputes Britain's three centuries of sovereignty over Gibraltar, which is home to close to 30,000 people with an economy dominated by off-shore banking, internet gambling operations and tourism.
Under the previous socialist government, Spain softened its stance on the territory, discussing other issues without bringing up sovereignty while agreeing to give Gibraltar a voice in any talks with Britain over its status.
The centre-right government of Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has taken a harder line regarding its claim on the territory. London has made clear that it will not negotiate over sovereignty as long as Gibraltar's people want to remain British.
"We are concerned by comments on Gibraltar which we are looking into further," a foreign office spokesman said.
"As we have said, we will not compromise on our sovereignty over Gibraltar, nor our commitment to its people. We continue to use all necessary measures to safeguard British sovereignty."
García-Margallo's comments represent the latest escalation in the dispute over the status of Gibraltar, following a number of alleged Spanish incursions into the territory's waters.
William Hague, the foreign secretary, last weekend phoned his Spanish counterpart to complain about Spain ramping up border checks, which forced drivers to wait for up to seven hours in searing heat. On Saturday, the Foreign Office summoned the Spanish ambassador to demand assurances that there would be no repeat of the excessive checks.
The authorities in Gibraltar said the elderly, children and the infirm were forced to wait in up to 30C heat, with the medical services treating people who were stuck in the queues.
Boats from Gibraltar began dumping blocks of concrete into the sea near the territory almost two weeks ago, saying it was creating an artificial reef that would foster fish populations.
Spain said the reef would block its fishing boats and ramped up border checks, creating long lines at the border between Spain and the territory.
Gibraltar complained to the European commission over what it says are unreasonable controls at the border, saying they violate European Union rules on free movement.
This Spanish charm offensive is sure to win the hearts and minds of the people of Gibraltar.
spain has apparently learned nothing from their Argentine brethren
What crawled up their asses? I wonder, has Gibraltar been British longer then it has been Spanish?
Economic troubles - saber-rattling to switch attention. How innovative :rolleyes:
Quote from: Razgovory on August 05, 2013, 02:36:58 AM
What crawled up their asses? I wonder, has Gibraltar been British longer then it has been Spanish?
iirc, last year gibraltar celebrated being british for 100 years longer than it was spanish.
Nobody cares that much about Gibraltar, especially now. So if the escalation is an attempt to divert attention from corruption allegations on Rajoy or the crisis itself, it is bound to fail.
That being said, the entire economy of the area (at both sides of the border) revolves around smuggling and tax dodging. So the government can close down the Rock for all I care.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 05, 2013, 02:29:53 AM
spain has apparently learned nothing from their Argentine brethren
On the contrary, seems like they're copying them to the letter; unemployed masses? economy collapsing? Look! Jangly keys of nationalism!
I'm noticing a lot of the same kind of thing in the UK this summer. <_<
The Daily Mail is gonna be so fun now. :)
Hands off you bloody DAGOS.
This will escalate a little further over the next few months, it'll suit both the embattled Spain PM and Cameron, helping to divert peoples attention way from domestic economic troubles.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 05, 2013, 05:23:13 AM
Nobody cares that much about Gibraltar, especially now. So if the escalation is an attempt to divert attention from corruption allegations on Rajoy or the crisis itself, it is bound to fail.
That being said, the entire economy of the area (at both sides of the border) revolves around smuggling and tax dodging. So the government can close down the Rock for all I care.
That said, there are real issues with regard to gibraltar about tax havens, money laundering, online gambling and similar issues. Resolving those issues will not happen while one party seeks to cause the other party to cease to exist. This precise problem persistently prevents putative peace deals in the perpetual palestine israel conflict. (sorry, got a bit carried away there...)
Will the RN still have the fighting spirit or resources to come to the resue?
Quote
Falklands War admiral Sandy Woodward dies aged 81
An admiral who led Britain's task force in the 1982 Falklands War has died after a long illness, aged 81, his daughter has told the BBC.
Sir Sandy Woodward was commander of the carrier force sent by then-PM Margaret Thatcher to retake the Falklands.
He served as deputy chief of the defence staff from 1985 and was made admiral in 1987.
Defence Secretary Philip Hammond paid tribute, saying Adm Woodward would be remembered as the "Fighting Admiral".
rest of article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23575534 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23575534)
Quote from: mongers on August 05, 2013, 07:08:19 AM
Will the RN still have the fighting spirit or resources to come to the resue?
They're not going to have the resources to support his funeral procession.
Quote from: mongers on August 05, 2013, 07:08:19 AM
Will the RN still have the fighting spirit or resources to come to the resue?
It's more a case of will the FFAA have the fighting spirit and resources to cross the neutral zone.
Quote from: Viking on August 05, 2013, 06:59:41 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 05, 2013, 05:23:13 AM
Nobody cares that much about Gibraltar, especially now. So if the escalation is an attempt to divert attention from corruption allegations on Rajoy or the crisis itself, it is bound to fail.
That being said, the entire economy of the area (at both sides of the border) revolves around smuggling and tax dodging. So the government can close down the Rock for all I care.
That said, there are real issues with regard to gibraltar about tax havens, money laundering, online gambling and similar issues. Resolving those issues will not happen while one party seeks to cause the other party to cease to exist. This precise problem persistently prevents putative peace deals in the perpetual palestine israel conflict. (sorry, got a bit carried away there...)
The sovereignty issue is irrelevant. Gibraltar is hardly the only pirate haven of Her Majesty. Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Virgin Islands, Bahamas, Jersey ...
Quote from: Iormlund on August 05, 2013, 07:37:41 AM
The sovereignty issue is irrelevant. Gibraltar is hardly the only pirate haven of Her Majesty. Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Virgin Islands, Bahamas, Jersey ...
Yes, but in or near the EU makes a difference.
I assume one of the issues is that Gibraltar charges lower taxes on its residents than Spain does?
In the EU do you get taxed based on where you work or where you live?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 05, 2013, 04:29:17 PM
I assume one of the issues is that Gibraltar charges lower taxes on its residents than Spain does?
In the EU do you get taxed based on where you work or where you live?
depends on treaties but iirc usually on where you live (as is proper)
Como se habla "Trident" en espanol?
Como se dice. :secret:
Tridente.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 05, 2013, 04:29:17 PM
I assume one of the issues is that Gibraltar charges lower taxes on its residents than Spain does?
In the EU do you get taxed based on where you work or where you live?
It's not taxes on residents that are the problem. It goes further than that. Picture the Cayman Islands to get an idea.
An added problem is smuggling. One of the main sources of income (both sides of the border) is using fast boats or bikes based in Gibraltar to drop off at the beaches goods that are either taxed heavily in Spain (tobacco) or downright illegal (drugs).
Quote from: Ideologue on August 06, 2013, 03:39:04 AM
Como se habla "Trident" en espanol?
It's a proper noun. You don't translate it.
Quote from: Neil on August 06, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 06, 2013, 03:39:04 AM
Como se habla "Trident" en espanol?
It's a proper noun. You don't translate it.
What about country names and firstnames for people in history?
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 06, 2013, 04:54:55 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 06, 2013, 03:39:04 AM
¿Cómo se dice "Trident" en español?
Fixed it for you
Oops.
Though I left out the accent marks and extra punctuation on purpose because they're difficult to access on my keyboard and are unnecessary for conveying meaning. :)
It looks like it's not just the UK government that is against border checks. A smuggler ran over Spanish cop at the border today.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 06, 2013, 04:18:13 PM
It looks like it's not just the UK government that is against border checks. A smuggler ran over Spanish cop at the border today.
That's weird. When I was in Europe the UK was the only country that bothered with things like border checks.
Quote from: Valmy on August 06, 2013, 04:19:31 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 06, 2013, 04:18:13 PM
It looks like it's not just the UK government that is against border checks. A smuggler ran over Spanish cop at the border today.
That's weird. When I was in Europe the UK was the only country that bothered with things like border checks.
Yes, Europe is not in the Schengen but is in the EU. Norway, however, is in Schengen, but not the EU.
And to think Spain was once the most powerful country in the wold.
:lol: Saw a Gibraltan journalist on TV who was sick of British weakness. He wanted the RN deployed with loose rules of engagement.
Quote from: garbon on August 06, 2013, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 06, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 06, 2013, 03:39:04 AM
Como se habla "Trident" en espanol?
It's a proper noun. You don't translate it.
What about country names and firstnames for people in history?
If they're in English, they're not translated. Otherwise, they are.
Quote from: Siege on August 06, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
And to think Spain was once the most powerful country in the wold.
Alot can change in 365 years.
Quote from: Siege on August 06, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
And to think Spain was once the most powerful country in the wold.
Well, there wasn't a lot of competition for the title in the lands bounded by Fangorn to the west and the Anduin to the East.
I don't think Spain was more powerful than China or the Ottoman Empire, even if they did claim vast quantities of nearly empty land. :hmm:
I suspect the Brits who go on holiday to Gibraltar are Daily Mail readers who want the sun without the foreigners.
I don have a friend who lives there, but she's from an Indian family.
Interesting fact, my great aunt helped plan and took part in the evacuation of Gibraltar during WWII.
Quote from: Brazen on August 07, 2013, 06:51:50 AM
I suspect the Brits who go on holiday to Gibraltar are Daily Mail readers who want the sun without the foreigners.
I don have a friend who lives there, but she's from an Indian family.
Interesting fact, my great aunt helped plan and took part in the evacuation of Gibraltar during WWII.
Pretty cool bit of personal history.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 07, 2013, 06:22:44 AM
I don't think Spain was more powerful than China or the Ottoman Empire, even if they did claim vast quantities of nearly empty land. :hmm:
Well they were powerful enough that their massive silver and gold discoveries destroyed both the Ottoman and Chinese economies. That empty land was pretty impactful.
Doesn't Spain own some small territories near Morroco too? Shouldn't they consider giving them back too, on the same principle as Gibraltar?
Quote from: Agelastus on August 07, 2013, 05:49:25 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 06, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
And to think Spain was once the most powerful country in the wold.
Well, there wasn't a lot of competition for the title in the lands bounded by Fangorn to the west and the Anduin to the East.
:lol:
Quote from: viper37 on August 08, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
Doesn't Spain own some small territories near Morroco too? Shouldn't they consider giving them back too, on the same principle as Gibraltar?
They were never part of Morocco, and probably pre-date Morocco.
I believe they are also integral parts of Spain, unlike Gibraltar which is an overseas territory.
Quote from: Maladict on August 08, 2013, 03:14:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 08, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
Doesn't Spain own some small territories near Morroco too? Shouldn't they consider giving them back too, on the same principle as Gibraltar?
They were never part of Morocco, and probably pre-date Morocco.
I believe they are also integral parts of Spain, unlike Gibraltar which is an overseas territory.
Kind of like Alaska :hmm:
Quote from: Maladict on August 08, 2013, 03:14:14 PM
They were never part of Morocco, and probably pre-date Morocco.
I believe they are also integral parts of Spain, unlike Gibraltar which is an overseas territory.
It depends when you think Morocco started; both had belonged to the Kingdom of Fez.
In any event it is crucial for Morocco to leave Ceuta and Melilla in the hands of Spain; they supply the country with it's much needed supply of ham.
Though Kingdom of Fez is an odd term.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 08, 2013, 03:16:48 PM
Quote from: Maladict on August 08, 2013, 03:14:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 08, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
Doesn't Spain own some small territories near Morroco too? Shouldn't they consider giving them back too, on the same principle as Gibraltar?
They were never part of Morocco, and probably pre-date Morocco.
I believe they are also integral parts of Spain, unlike Gibraltar which is an overseas territory.
Kind of like Alaska :hmm:
I dare those dirty Spics to try and claim us again :ultra:
If Ceuta should go back to anyone it should go back to Portugal :contract:
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:45:37 PM
If Ceuta should go back to anyone it should go back to Portugal :contract:
You people couldn't run a whorehouse.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 08, 2013, 07:47:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:45:37 PM
If Ceuta should go back to anyone it should go back to Portugal :contract:
You people couldn't run a whorehouse.
could so!
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 08, 2013, 07:51:21 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:48:17 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 08, 2013, 07:47:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:45:37 PM
If Ceuta should go back to anyone it should go back to Portugal :contract:
You people couldn't run a whorehouse.
could so!
Nein!
hey, if I can convince women to sleep with me it shouldn't be much harder to convince them to sleep with other people :P
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:59:31 PM
hey, if I can convince women to sleep with me it shouldn't be much harder to convince them to sleep with other people :P
When you can convince them to stop calling you, then I'll be impressed.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 08, 2013, 08:04:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:59:31 PM
hey, if I can convince women to sleep with me it shouldn't be much harder to convince them to sleep with other people :P
When you can convince them to stop calling you, then I'll be impressed.
Lol she stopped. One girl with boundary issues shows up at two in the morning to interrupt our game and you never let me live it down :( :D
No, no I don't.
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 08:07:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 08, 2013, 08:04:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:59:31 PM
hey, if I can convince women to sleep with me it shouldn't be much harder to convince them to sleep with other people :P
When you can convince them to stop calling you, then I'll be impressed.
Lol she stopped. One girl with boundary issues shows up at two in the morning to interrupt our game and you never let me live it down :( :D
Sounds hot.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 08, 2013, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 08:07:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 08, 2013, 08:04:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 07:59:31 PM
hey, if I can convince women to sleep with me it shouldn't be much harder to convince them to sleep with other people :P
When you can convince them to stop calling you, then I'll be impressed.
Lol she stopped. One girl with boundary issues shows up at two in the morning to interrupt our game and you never let me live it down :( :D
Sounds hot.
Not when you broke up with her a week before.
Wait..this I got to hear...was CdM actually playing a wargame? I find that hard to believe.
Quote from: HVC on August 08, 2013, 08:33:32 PM
Not when you broke up with her a week before.
Bigger ego stroke though.
Apropos of nothing, was our last battle with Spain in European waters the Battle of Cadiz? :hmm:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/08/gibraltar-warship-deployment (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/08/gibraltar-warship-deployment)
Trafalgar, surely?
Quote from: Warspite on August 09, 2013, 06:07:47 AM
Trafalgar, surely?
Thanks :hug:
Writing an enjoyably sarky op-ed about the whole ridiculous situation.
In fact, in the last Battle of Cádiz (1810) Spain and the UK were on the same side. ;)
I got to use the phrase "picnic-thieving monkeys" for the first time.
Quote from: Brazen on August 09, 2013, 07:53:33 AM
I got to use the phrase "picnic-thieving monkeys" for the first time.
Use the idea that you want to use the phrase as an excuse to invite your friends to have a picnic near the zoo. I guarantee it will be a good day out.
The fleet is sailing sez the Daily Fail! HUZZAH
But they will be stopping over in Rota.
BY JINGO!