Says this article.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/07/abolish_tipping_it_s_bad_for_servers_customers_and_restaurants.html
QuoteTipping Is an Abomination
Here's how to get rid of it.
When wealthy Americans brought home the practice of tipping from their European vacations in the late 19th century, their countrymen considered it bribery. State legislatures quickly banned the practice. But restaurateurs, giddy at the prospect of passing labor costs directly to customers, eventually convinced Americans to accept tipping.
We had it right the first time. Tipping is a repugnant custom. It's bad for consumers and terrible for workers. It perpetuates racism. Tipping isn't even good for restaurants, because the legal morass surrounding gratuities results in scores of expensive lawsuits.
Tipping does not incentivize hard work. The factors that correlate most strongly to tip size have virtually nothing to do with the quality of service. Credit card tips are larger than cash tips. Large parties with sizable bills leave disproportionately small tips. We tip servers more if they tell us their names, touch us on the arm, or draw smiley faces on our checks. Quality of service has a laughably small impact on tip size. According to a 2000 study, a customer's assessment of the server's work only accounts for between 1 and 5 percent of the variation in tips at a restaurant.
Tipping also creates a racially charged feedback loop, based around the widely held assumption—explored in an episode of Louie, in the Oscar-winning film Crash, and elsewhere—that African-Americans tend to be subpar tippers. There seems to be some truth to this stereotype: African-Americans, on average, tip 3 percentage points less than white customers. The tipping gap between Hispanics and whites is smaller, but still discernible in studies. This creates an excuse for restaurant servers to prioritize the needs of certain ethnic groups over others.
Irrelevant or insidious factors will dominate the tipping equation until quality of work becomes the main driver of tip size, but that's unlikely to happen. And tip size isn't the real problem anyway. The real problem is that restaurants don't pay their employees a living wage. The federal "tip credit" allows restaurants to pay their tipped employees as little as $2.13 per hour, as long as tips make up the shortfall—which turns a customer into a co-employer. Although federal and state law requires restaurants to ensure that tips bring employees up to minimum wage, few diners know that. (Hosts/hostesses, bussers, and food runners, who receive a small fraction of the servers' tips, often fall short of minimum wage on some nights.) The tip credit has turned the gratuity into a moral obligation, and we ought to cut it from our statute books with a steak knife.
The only real beneficiary of the preposterously complicated tip credit is lawyers. Imagine what it's like for a company running restaurants in multiple states. There's no tip credit in some states, like California and Washington, where tipped employees must be paid the full minimum wage. Hawaii allows the tip credit only if the combined tip and cash wage surpass the statewide minimum hourly wage by 50 cents. New York and Connecticut have different minimum wages for servers, hotel employees, and bartenders.
Then you have to consider time that employees spend on activities not likely to yield tips. Applebee's, for example, has suffered a series of legal setbacks in lawsuits brought by tipped employees seeking back pay for time spent cleaning toilets and washing glassware.
The laws regarding tip sharing and tip pooling, which occur in virtually every restaurant, are even more complicated. Federal law allows mandatory tip sharing, but only among employees who customarily receive either direct or indirect tips. That means servers, bussers, food runners, and hosts and hostesses can be required to pool their tips with each other, but not with managers. Unfortunately, the line between service and management is fuzzy in many restaurants, and differences between state laws further complicate matters. A California judge ordered Starbucks to pay $105 million in 2008 for forcing 100,000 baristas to share tips with supervisors. Last week, the New York Court of Appeals reached the opposite conclusion, ruling that New York law allows the arrangement. Chili's has also lost a multimillion dollar judgment over tip sharing.
The entire mess is begging for some certainty and predictability. Restaurants need a clear set of rules to follow. Servers should have a steadier income stream. Hosts and bussers, who have relatively little interaction with customers, ought not to be involved in tipping at all. Customers need more clarity as well, instead of worrying at the end of a meal if the waiter, or your guests, approve of your 17 percent tip.
I'd like to propose a solution. First, ask your state and federal representatives to abolish the tip credit, which would turn tips back into actual gratuities: something given free of obligation. Second, announce your tipping practice to your server as soon as you sit down. Virtually every other employee in America knows how much they'll be paid up front, and somehow the man who sells me shoes and the woman who does my dry cleaning still manage to provide adequate service. I have no doubt waiters and waitresses are the same. Finally, tip a flat, but reasonably generous, dollar amount per person in your party. Around 20 percent of Americans, mostly older people, tip a flat amount already, so it's not exactly revolutionary. A server's pay shouldn't be linked to whether or not you have room for dessert.
Agreed. It really has a lot in common with bribery, except for the feel-good aspect of it.
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 12:47:30 PM
A server's pay shouldn't be linked to whether or not you have room for dessert.
That takes up more of their time.
And a server who's on top of the refills and such probably has less tables at the moment, so is getting less tips. Tipping him better for these times makes sense. Why should a server's pay be linked to how much business the restaurant is doing?
God I hate slate.
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
The person that wrote that article should be beaten profusely about the head.
and you fucking snobs on the forum.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
20% baby! :yeah:
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
I am not sure which you are referring to. Here an included tip usually runs about 15% and generally speaking when I tip where there is no included tip, I tip between 10-20% depending on service levels.
If I am tipping in addition to an included tip it will usually be about 5% - I carry cash for that purpose so they can just pocket it.
Here, the normal custom is to tip 15% for ordinary service and 20% for really good service.
I agree that tipping in restaurants is a strange custom, but once ingrained it really can't be eliminated easily; people feel it is a moral imperative to tip regardless of what they are told about the fee structure.
Amanda Tapping was cool in SG-1.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
I do too, most of the time. I just have an issue with the whole tipping concept. Pay the waiters more, for instance, and charge me more.
I remember a time in a Montreal bar and I bought a beer for me and a friend and it came to $8.50 I paid for the round at the bar with a ten, and turned to go. The bartender called me back. i thought he was going to say "thanks" or "Merci" whatever, but instead he says, "that's not enough! I have to make a living."
Like, fuck you.
I have a huge hate-on for tipping. And because the custom is here, I do tip, and normally tip well. Minimum 15 per cent, often 20. Depending on various things.
But then I wonder how do I know whom to tip. I tip my hairdresser but not my massage therapist. Why?
Just abolish the concept. Raise prices, I'm cool with that.
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 12:47:30 PM
Tipping does not incentivize hard work.
I disagree. Service in Korea is abysmal. I blame the lack of tips.
Fuck tipping.
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
$2, eh? I bet you're beloved at your local eateries.
You better have some nice hooters to get a large tip from me.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:34:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
$2, eh? I bet you're beloved at your local eateries.
Dude. Read it again. He doesn't say he tips $2. He said raise the price of the meal $2 AND pay the waitress a living wage.
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
20% baby! :yeah:
You're not all bad, garbo. Though I do like to tip at least $5 if I'm eating by myself or if 20% would not be equal to $5, which I consider a minimum table fee.
Anyway, I agree with the philosophical thrust of the article, that servers should be paid a normal wage, but I'm not very sanguine about the prospect in practice. If you take away the direct moral obligation upon guests to tip 20%, then what you'll see, immediately, is declining wages in the service industry, because as difficult as restaurant work really, really is, most servers have only one skill (if that). Food prices will rise, but not enough to make up for, let alone exceed, what they were getting in tips, because we know to the point of ontological certainty that Americans do not value whatsoever the treatment of workers when it comes to choosing where to consume. The closest they come is upper middle-class snobs and wannabes shopping at Target instead of Wal-Mart, because the higher prices keep riff-raff away, not because higher prices translate into significantly, or any, better wages or working conditions. Therefore, custom will fly to the cheaper restaurant of equal quality and sit-down restaurant servers will become as impoverished as their fast food counterparts.
However, at least the state solutions proffered would be leveling, and in theory could establish a high minwage, even a living wage, in the food service labor market. But that horseshit about "flat tipping" and other individual action? Just excuses for cheap cunts to fuck their servers out of earned money, or a living wage, in the name of some nebulous, and condescending, "point."
I always tip 20%, sometimes more if a) it's a place I go to a lot or b) the service was really out of this world.
Quote from: fhdz on July 10, 2013, 07:43:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:34:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
$2, eh? I bet you're beloved at your local eateries.
Dude. Read it again. He doesn't say he tips $2. He said raise the price of the meal $2 AND pay the waitress a living wage.
Really? I wasn't aware that restaurants, like the Treasury, were permitted to print money. That changes everything.
I'd say you need about $3-5 a head for a living wage, depending upon volume and efficiency.
That said, I was mainly funning, Joe. No offense meant, I hope none taken.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:47:35 PM
Really? I wasn't aware that restaurants, like the Treasury, were permitted to print money.
Now you're just being a meathead.
QuoteI do too, most of the time. I just have an issue with the whole tipping concept. Pay the waiters more, for instance, and charge me more.
I remember a time in a Montreal bar and I bought a beer for me and a friend and it came to $8.50 I paid for the round at the bar with a ten, and turned to go. The bartender called me back. i thought he was going to say "thanks" or "Merci" whatever, but instead he says, "that's not enough! I have to make a living."
Like, fuck you.
You have to do it at bars too? :huh:
Shit...that sucks.
And what an arse hole. He should be thankful for any tip.
QuoteI disagree. Service in Korea is abysmal. I blame the lack of tips.
Service in Japan is the best of the world. Tipping is utterly culturally forbidden.
QuoteIrrelevant or insidious factors will dominate the tipping equation until quality of work becomes the main driver of tip size, but that's unlikely to happen. And tip size isn't the real problem anyway. The real problem is that restaurants don't pay their employees a living wage. The federal "tip credit" allows restaurants to pay their tipped employees as little as $2.13 per hour, as long as tips make up the shortfall—which turns a customer into a co-employer. Although federal and state law requires restaurants to ensure that tips bring employees up to minimum wage, few diners know that. (Hosts/hostesses, bussers, and food runners, who receive a small fraction of the servers' tips, often fall short of minimum wage on some nights.) The tip credit has turned the gratuity into a moral obligation, and we ought to cut it from our statute books with a steak knife.
I asolutely hate this side of things. Whenever non-americans complain about tipping you always seem to get Americans jumping to its defence as waiters couldn't survive without it. Um no. Its the entire reason they're in such a dodgy situation.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:45:21 PM
The closest they come is upper middle-class snobs and wannabes shopping at Target instead of Wal-Mart,
I only shop there because it's right across the street.
Quote from: fhdz on July 10, 2013, 07:47:07 PM
I always tip 20%, sometimes more if a) it's a place I go to a lot or b) the service was really out of this world.
I always tip 20% because--
1) it's easier to figure out that 15% or 18% bullshit, and
2) regardless of the service, I realize it's a shitty fucking job to have and, if I were in their place I'd be lovingly tonguing the barrel of my .357 each night dreading the fact that I have to do it again the next day.
So I tip them anyway.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 10, 2013, 09:21:15 PM
1) it's easier to figure out that 15%
10% then half of that. You're welcome :P
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 08:48:30 PM
You have to do it at bars too? :huh:
Shit...that sucks.
Bars, any restaurant with table service, taxis, valet parking, food delivered to your home, anybody who carries your baggage (skycap, bellman), the kids who clean your golf clubs.
QuoteAnd what an arse hole. He should be thankful for any tip.
Nope. In a tipping system you're entitled to get pissed off if someone stiffs you on a tip.
However $1.50 on a 8.50 tab is not stiffing by any stretch of the imaginiation.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 08:48:30 PM
Service in Japan is the best of the world. Tipping is utterly culturally forbidden.
I asolutely hate this side of things. Whenever non-americans complain about tipping you always seem to get Americans jumping to its defence as waiters couldn't survive without it. Um no. Its the entire reason they're in such a dodgy situation.
While vastly superior to service in Korea, I wouldn't say that they were quite up to American standards. Close though.
If you passed a law against tips tomorrow, waitresses would be paid minimum wage and make less than they did with the previous system.
This thread, like any tipping thread on an international forum, really underlines the one demographic that really sucks isn't blacks or Hispanics or even poor whites, but fucking foreigners. God, they're all terrible, whether polite German travelers, drunken Japanese businessmen, or Desi engineers with annoyingly-specific caste-based dietary needs. If they haven't been in country a year, the legislation we should push for is for them to be barred from restaurants.
QuoteBars, any restaurant with table service, taxis, valet parking, food delivered to your home, anybody who carries your baggage (skycap, bellman), the kids who clean your golf clubs.
Maybe American bars are very different to ones I'm used to...but surely you typically order more than once at a bar? For every beer you give a tip?
QuoteThis thread, like any tipping thread on an international forum, really underlines the one demographic that really sucks isn't blacks or Hispanics or even poor whites, but fucking foreigners. God, they're all terrible, whether polite German travelers, drunken Japanese businessmen, or Desi engineers with annoyingly-specific caste-based dietary needs. If they haven't been in country a year, the legislation we should push for is for them to be barred from restaurants.
This is another annoying thing in tipping discussions. Often Americans will bitch about foreigners being cheap. That our culture of tipping is obviously exactly the same, we're just tight.
The American system really is very strange to people from most countries. It is very hard to actually grasp the intricacies.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 10, 2013, 09:48:24 PM
While vastly superior to service in Korea, I wouldn't say that they were quite up to American standards. Close though.
I've yet to go to the US I must admit (really considering a Hawaii or Guam trip in the not too distant future...) but from American style restaurants...I really don't like the intrusive American service style. That is not good service in my book.
Quote
If you passed a law against tips tomorrow, waitresses would be paid minimum wage and make less than they did with the previous system.
Nobody is suggesting a law against tips. The issue is employers being allowed to steal people's tips to cover what they should be paying them.
Waiters should get minimum wage and a tip which depends on how good a job they did.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
Nobody is suggesting a law against tips. The issue is employers being allowed to steal people's tips to cover what they should be paying them.
This makes no sense to me. Instead of adding $3 to the bill and passing it on to the waiter later, the cash goes directly from the customer to the waiter. How is the second one stealing? It's just cutting out the middle man.
Uh, Yi? Do you not know how tips work?
Cheap fucks. <_< I've found the best tippers are generally people who work/have worked in the service industry, and the worst tippers are wealthy people. While in theory raising prices to increase wages for employees sounds great, it would never be a direct translation in terms of money made to price increase. The workers would inevitably lose out in the exchange while the top dogs made even more money. Also, tip pooling is fucking wretched. I hate the concept with a passion. It fails for the same reason Communism does. Who wants to bust their ass and end up making the same at the end of the shift as the dumbfuck who did nothing all shift? Fuck that.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 10, 2013, 11:40:24 PM
Uh, Yi? Do you not know how tips work?
Good point Raz. I hadn't thought of that. :hmm:
I must be getting through to you. I don't even have to make the full argument anymore.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2013, 11:39:23 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
Nobody is suggesting a law against tips. The issue is employers being allowed to steal people's tips to cover what they should be paying them.
This makes no sense to me. Instead of adding $3 to the bill and passing it on to the waiter later, the cash goes directly from the customer to the waiter. How is the second one stealing? It's just cutting out the middle man.
Tips are meant to be something extra for the waiter since he did a good job for us and we know he gets shitty pay. They're not meant to be an excuse for the shitty pay, a way for employers to increase their profit margins by reducing their staff bill, making it look like things cost less and passing on hidden costs to customers
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:58:07 PM
Tips are meant to be something extra for the waiter since he did a good job for us and we know he gets shitty pay. They're not meant to be an excuse for the shitty pay, a way for employers to increase their profit margins by reducing their staff bill, making it look like things cost less and passing on hidden costs to customers
In my hypothetical $3 added to the bill or $3 handed over directly to the waiter, how does the employer's profit margin get increased?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:01:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:58:07 PM
Tips are meant to be something extra for the waiter since he did a good job for us and we know he gets shitty pay. They're not meant to be an excuse for the shitty pay, a way for employers to increase their profit margins by reducing their staff bill, making it look like things cost less and passing on hidden costs to customers
In my hypothetical $3 added to the bill or $3 handed over directly to the waiter, how does the employer's profit margin get increased?
Who said anything about ading $3 to the bill?
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 10, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Cheap fucks. <_< I've found the best tippers are generally people who work/have worked in the service industry, and the worst tippers are wealthy people.
Honestly, waiters at $50+/plate restaurants don't deserve 15%. But in an apples to apples comparison, I got more from delivering pizza to people living in nice houses than people living in shitty apartments.
Quote from: Tyr on July 11, 2013, 12:02:28 AM
Who said anything about ading $3 to the bill?
Josephus did and I did.
Are you suggesting that the employer pay the wait staff more and *not* increase prices? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:11:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 11, 2013, 12:02:28 AM
Who said anything about ading $3 to the bill?
Josephus did and I did.
Are you suggesting that the employer pay the wait staff more and *not* increase prices? :huh:
Depends on the restaurant.
Some will have to, some won't.
Tyr, sit down before you hurt yourself. Yi, the money you give the waiter does not go directly to the waiter. It typically goes to a big pot which management often dips into. So you really aren't "Cutting out the middleman".
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 10:16:07 PM
This thread, like any tipping thread on an international forum, really underlines the one demographic that really sucks isn't blacks or Hispanics or even poor whites, but fucking foreigners. God, they're all terrible, whether polite German travelers, drunken Japanese businessmen, or Desi engineers with annoyingly-specific caste-based dietary needs. If they haven't been in country a year, the legislation we should push for is for them to be barred from restaurants.
Alternatively, you could enforce minimum wages for waiting staff, so they don't have to rely on the kindness of strangers to make a living.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2013, 12:31:43 AM
Tyr, sit down before you hurt yourself. Yi, the money you give the waiter does not go directly to the waiter. It typically goes to a big pot which management often dips into. So you really aren't "Cutting out the middleman".
Pooled tips are the exception, not the rule. Not once have I heard of management dipping into a tip pool.
Where do you get this stuff from Raz?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:33:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2013, 12:31:43 AM
Tyr, sit down before you hurt yourself. Yi, the money you give the waiter does not go directly to the waiter. It typically goes to a big pot which management often dips into. So you really aren't "Cutting out the middleman".
Pooled tips are the exception, not the rule. Not once have I heard of management dipping into a tip pool.
Where do you get this stuff from Raz?
You could try reading the OP.
QuoteThe laws regarding tip sharing and tip pooling, which occur in virtually every restaurant, are even more complicated. Federal law allows mandatory tip sharing, but only among employees who customarily receive either direct or indirect tips. That means servers, bussers, food runners, and hosts and hostesses can be required to pool their tips with each other, but not with managers. Unfortunately, the line between service and management is fuzzy in many restaurants, and differences between state laws further complicate matters. A California judge ordered Starbucks to pay $105 million in 2008 for forcing 100,000 baristas to share tips with supervisors. Last week, the New York Court of Appeals reached the opposite conclusion, ruling that New York law allows the arrangement. Chili's has also lost a multimillion dollar judgment over tip sharing.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
Maybe American bars are very different to ones I'm used to...but surely you typically order more than once at a bar? For every beer you give a tip?
If you pay per drink, yeah. Most people get a tab though and just work out a tip for the final bill.
I agree with Yi, Raz, pooled tips are the exception.
That's bizarre. Pooling tips is very rare in my experience. Who else here works/has worked for tips? Pooled or unpooled?
Though I don't think it's entirely accurate to describe Starbucks supervisors (who are just the poor schlubs slinging coffee that get to lock up) sharing tips as "management often dipping into it."
So what is your definition of management.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2013, 12:47:28 AM
So what is your definition of management.
For a place like Starbucks I would say the store manager and the assistant manager on up.
What is your definition of often?
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
QuoteThis thread, like any tipping thread on an international forum, really underlines the one demographic that really sucks isn't blacks or Hispanics or even poor whites, but fucking foreigners. God, they're all terrible, whether polite German travelers, drunken Japanese businessmen, or Desi engineers with annoyingly-specific caste-based dietary needs. If they haven't been in country a year, the legislation we should push for is for them to be barred from restaurants.
This is another annoying thing in tipping discussions. Often Americans will bitch about foreigners being cheap. That our culture of tipping is obviously exactly the same, we're just tight.
The American system really is very strange to people from most countries. It is very hard to actually grasp the intricacies.
No, it isn't. I thought foreigners were supposed to be good at math?
Quote from: SytAlternatively, you could enforce minimum wages for waiting staff, so they don't have to rely on the kindness of strangers to make a living.
I could also enforce, or let's be clear,
advocate for, all sorts of things. How many times has anything I've asked my government to do actually been done? Only once, in living memory, when we invaded Iraq.
Since a change in the legal regime for tipped workers is probably impossible in America, it strikes me as easier to attempt to educate foreigners on our apparently arcane cultural practice of multiplying a number times .2, and hoping that they can comport themselves with some dignity when visiting my country. Take solace in the fact that when in the Holy Roman Empire, I will happily do as you tell me the Holy Romans do.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2013, 12:47:28 AM
So what is your definition of management.
For a place like Starbucks I would say the store manager and the assistant manager on up.
What is your definition of often?
Frequently.
It would appear that we are in agreement, since assistant managers and store manager on up were the ones getting in on the tip pool. I've heard of many cases were management take a cut on tips. It's sometimes illegal but exactly what is some waitress going to do about it? Sue?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:33:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2013, 12:31:43 AM
Tyr, sit down before you hurt yourself. Yi, the money you give the waiter does not go directly to the waiter. It typically goes to a big pot which management often dips into. So you really aren't "Cutting out the middleman".
Pooled tips are the exception, not the rule. Not once have I heard of management dipping into a tip pool.
Where do you get this stuff from Raz?
Having worked in 5 bars, pooling has been done if the bartenders that are working together want to, but it isn't mandatory except at my current job. Not only do we have to split with everyone who is in the bar, but also the giftshop and seemingly anyone else in the building. It's a horrible plan and one of the reasons I'm leaving. When I bust my ass and pull in $350 in tips during my two hours bartending solo and then have to clean up and reset by myself, I sure as fuck don't want to split it with the 15 people outside doing nothing during that time frame. I have no problem with tipping out the door guys, barbacks, and other non-tipped positions and always made sure to do so out of my tips, but they generally make a different payrate per hour and have much less strenuous jobs. I know, I've barbacked and bounced.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
That's bizarre. Pooling tips is very rare in my experience. Who else here works/has worked for tips? Pooled or unpooled?
Rare from what I've seen. My other half has worked as a Bartender/Waitress at three different places since I've know her. Management has never dipped into anybody's tips. The shitty bartenders/servers love pools. The last place she worked one of the shitty bartenders tried to talk the others into a pool. They all said fuck no. On a busy night that person would clear $50-$60 working the bar and pull-tabs. I've seen my other half bring down $250 for a night. Highest she made in a night at the last place she worked was a tad over $400.
QuoteIt's a horrible plan and one of the reasons I'm leaving. When I bust my ass and pull in $350 in tips during my two hours bartending solo and then have to clean up and reset by myself, I sure as fuck don't want to split it with the 15 people outside doing nothing during that time frame. I have no problem with tipping out the door guys, barbacks, and other non-tipped positions and always made sure to do so out of my tips, but they generally make a different payrate per hour and have much less strenuous jobs. I know, I've barbacked and bounced.
Very well said
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 10:16:07 PM
This thread, like any tipping thread on an international forum, really underlines the one demographic that really sucks isn't blacks or Hispanics or even poor whites, but fucking foreigners. God, they're all terrible, whether polite German travelers, drunken Japanese businessmen, or Desi engineers with annoyingly-specific caste-based dietary needs. If they haven't been in country a year, the legislation we should push for is for them to be barred from restaurants.
I like the cut of your jib.
I hate tipping culture, and I've worked three jobs in the service industry.
Seems the trend is setting in to tip 20%, in major US cities.
Here, it is still presumptively 15%. In fact, those little electronic billing machines have two settings for tipping: "15%" and "other", which then has to be entered manually.
I've done unpooled as a delivery driver. I dropped all money I collected in a lockbox and paid the house's take when I clocked out.
That way was bullshit, though- the accounting burden is on all tipped employees to make sure they make enough to cover wage at the end of the week. Tips really should have been reported to the house at the end of the night, just to cover the house's liability in case of a short week.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
20% baby! :yeah:
You're not all bad, garbo. Though I do like to tip at least $5 if I'm eating by myself or if 20% would not be equal to $5, which I consider a minimum table fee.
Well waitstaff gotta eat too. Also, generally in New York when alone 20% is at least 5 bucks.
Quote from: Malthus on July 10, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
Here, the normal custom is to tip 15% for ordinary service and 20% for really good service.
I agree that tipping in restaurants is a strange custom, but once ingrained it really can't be eliminated easily; people feel it is a moral imperative to tip regardless of what they are told about the fee structure.
There's a new Chinese restaurant in town (been here about a year or two) that has signs all over saying not to tip. The cost of the food is comparable to other Chinese restaurants, and the service is excellent, but they strongly discourage tipping, period. To the point that I would feel really uncomfortable leaving a tip.
An article in the paper had the owner explaining her reasoning. She said that she charges what the food is worth, and pays her servers what they're worth. There's no need for her customers to supplement their income. It's a really popular restaurant, especially with the local Chinese population, of which we have a fair few.
I'd think something like that would be fairly quick to be understood and accepted.
20% is my baseline. I go slightly higher or lower depending on service.
I go way higher than that when I take my kids out for chili on "kids eat free" nights (all chili parlors here have table service). Our check ends up being like $10, if that, and I'm always needing more napkins, crackers, refills, etc. Plus the kids always manage to make a mess. So I'll leave $5 on the table.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
Maybe American bars are very different to ones I'm used to...but surely you typically order more than once at a bar? For every beer you give a tip?
My brother will tip the barkeep $20 up front, with his first order. Then, if he's still at the bar after four hours or so, he'll throw another $20 onto his bill when he settles out. Generally, that rounds out to around 20-30% of his bartab since he usually pays for others. Means the bartender is quicker to come to my brother when he comes up to order, and my brother doesn't have to bother with keeping track as he goes.
Also, in the US, it's not uncommon to hand over a credit card at the start of the night for a tab, and then settle up at the end. Adding the tip, then, is fairly easy.
QuoteThis is another annoying thing in tipping discussions. Often Americans will bitch about foreigners being cheap. That our culture of tipping is obviously exactly the same, we're just tight.
The American system really is very strange to people from most countries. It is very hard to actually grasp the intricacies.
No, I think most people recognize that foreigners have a different system. That doesn't help them much when they've spent 1.5 hours working your table and walk away with $5 to show for a $75 tab.
Quote
Nobody is suggesting a law against tips. The issue is employers being allowed to steal people's tips to cover what they should be paying them.
Waiters should get minimum wage and a tip which depends on how good a job they did.
No, I think the OP is strongly suggesting that we abolish tipping all together, and that servers should be paid a fair salary for the amount and type of work that they do.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
I've yet to go to the US I must admit (really considering a Hawaii or Guam trip in the not too distant future...) but from American style restaurants...I really don't like the intrusive American service style. That is not good service in my book.
New York is more like Europe in that the waiter checks in like once and if you don't flag them down for the check, you could be there forever. We also eat later too. :D
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 10, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Cheap fucks. <_< I've found the best tippers are generally people who work/have worked in the service industry, and the worst tippers are wealthy people.
As a former server, I will always leave a tip no matter how bad the service was. My base is 15% regardess of service provided. From there, it only goes up. However, I'm also one of the first to ask to see the manager if the service is particularly horrible. I know how hard the job is and I recognize rushed, busy service vs. shitty service. I'll complain in a heartbeat at the end of my meal if I feel like the server was just a shitty server.
QuoteWhile in theory raising prices to increase wages for employees sounds great, it would never be a direct translation in terms of money made to price increase. The workers would inevitably lose out in the exchange while the top dogs made even more money.
That's my concern, too.
QuoteAlso, tip pooling is fucking wretched. I hate the concept with a passion. It fails for the same reason Communism does. Who wants to bust their ass and end up making the same at the end of the shift as the dumbfuck who did nothing all shift? Fuck that.
Abso-fucking-lutely.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
That's bizarre. Pooling tips is very rare in my experience. Who else here works/has worked for tips? Pooled or unpooled?
Though I don't think it's entirely accurate to describe Starbucks supervisors (who are just the poor schlubs slinging coffee that get to lock up) sharing tips as "management often dipping into it."
Unpooled only, though we were supposed to give a set percentage of our tips each night for the hosts and bussers. I usually gave the bussers extra so that they were quicker to help me out when I needed it. Hosts got the straight percentage.
I rarely tip at places like Starbucks. They have to seriously go above and beyond for me to throw something into their jars.
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 07:56:53 AM
Seems the trend is setting in to tip 20%, in major US cities.
Here, it is still presumptively 15%. In fact, those little electronic billing machines have two settings for tipping: "15%" and "other", which then has to be entered manually.
Actually I think it is still 15. Wasn't till I moved to New York that I started tipping 20 /I think is sort of the standard here.
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2013, 10:27:01 AM
20% is my baseline. I go slightly higher or lower depending on service.
I go way higher than that when I take my kids out for chili on "kids eat free" nights (all chili parlors here have table service). Our check ends up being like $10, if that, and I'm always needing more napkins, crackers, refills, etc. Plus the kids always manage to make a mess. So I'll leave $5 on the table.
The general rule of thumb is to tip on what your bill
would be if you paid for everything that you got. So, if the manager gives you a free appetizer, you tip as if you'd paid for it. Same with free kids meals.
At a restaurant I usually leave 20% unless they stick a fork in my eye. Completely different ballgame at a bar. Start at 20 then add the hottie bartender sweetener, the serve me quickly sweetener, the showing off sweetener, and the I'm buzzed sweetener.
As a waiter I really hated getting large parties that qualified for the automatic 15% add-on. First because your average tip is more than 15%, and second because most customers figure tip on the gross (including tax). Machine does it on net.
I've always said that how a person tips is one of the surest measures of a person's character. I also tell people that tipping is the only time an extra buck is the difference between being a stud and being a chump.
Quote from: merithyn on July 11, 2013, 10:40:37 AM
As a former server, I will always leave a tip no matter how bad the service was. My base is 15% regardess of service provided. From there, it only goes up. However, I'm also one of the first to ask to see the manager if the service is particularly horrible. I know how hard the job is and I recognize rushed, busy service vs. shitty service. I'll complain in a heartbeat at the end of my meal if I feel like the server was just a shitty server.
Only once have I not tipped. The server intentionally ignored us for half an hour before we ordered and after we paid (and were waiting for a credit card back). He was chatting with a table a little away from us both times, and the place wasn't that busy.
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2013, 10:27:01 AM
20% is my baseline. I go slightly higher or lower depending on service.
I go way higher than that when I take my kids out for chili on "kids eat free" nights (all chili parlors here have table service). Our check ends up being like $10, if that, and I'm always needing more napkins, crackers, refills, etc. Plus the kids always manage to make a mess. So I'll leave $5 on the table.
FWIW, you should always base your tip on the value of the meal BEFORE any coupons or discounts. The free meal doesn't mean any less work for the restaurant staff.
That said a 100% tip like you would be talking about is probably a bit much, though I have done it.
I am a past restaurant worker though, I almost always overtip, but I also have no problem leaving 0 if the server is bad.
Quote from: merithyn on July 11, 2013, 10:40:37 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 10, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Cheap fucks. <_< I've found the best tippers are generally people who work/have worked in the service industry, and the worst tippers are wealthy people.
As a former server, I will always leave a tip no matter how bad the service was. My base is 15% regardess of service provided. From there, it only goes up. However, I'm also one of the first to ask to see the manager if the service is particularly horrible. I know how hard the job is and I recognize rushed, busy service vs. shitty service. I'll complain in a heartbeat at the end of my meal if I feel like the server was just a shitty server.
As I said as a former restaurant worker (i have done everything there is to be done in a restaurant) I have no problem not leaving anything if I think it is the server's fault that the service was very bad. I wold always talk to the manger in those cases though.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 11, 2013, 10:50:50 AM
I've always said that how a person tips is one of the surest measures of a person's character. I also tell people that tipping is the only time an extra buck is the difference between being a stud and being a chump.
:yes:
Quote from: merithyn on July 11, 2013, 10:50:24 AM
The general rule of thumb is to tip on what your bill would be if you paid for everything that you got. So, if the manager gives you a free appetizer, you tip as if you'd paid for it. Same with free kids meals.
Right. Plus a little more on top of that in this case.
So I was at a bar for a hot second after work yesterday during happy hour. As I handed over my cash (6 bucks for my blue moon), I was told that tip was already included. When I went to leave I saw that they had a sign that happy hour beers were 5 bucks each. What's this tip included bullshit on one beer? /here's a tip, I generally would have left two dollars if left to my own devices. :D
I did the same thing right after work and was planning to get just one beer-- a Belgian bistro downtown had a keep-the-glass event for a tapping of Blanche de Chambly. Found out that I was not only getting the free glass, but the distributor paid for the first 4 people at the tapping so my beer was free as well. Would've felt weird to walk out without paying anything (still would've tipped, of course) so I ordered another since I had a few extra minutes to spare. My tab came out to a whopping $6 so I left a ten dollar bill. Still feel like I got away cheap :)
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:58:02 AM
My tab came out to a whopping $6 so I left a ten dollar bill. Still feel like I got away cheap :)
I would always do that for the first beer--$10 for a $6 beer. That way, the barkeep would remember you immediately, no waiting the next time with the rest of the throng.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:58:02 AM
I did the same thing right after work and was planning to get just one beer-- a Belgian bistro downtown had a keep-the-glass event for a tapping of Blanche de Chambly. Found out that I was not only getting the free glass, but the distributor paid for the first 4 people at the tapping so my beer was free as well. Would've felt weird to walk out without paying anything (still would've tipped, of course) so I ordered another since I had a few extra minutes to spare. My tab came out to a whopping $6 so I left a ten dollar bill. Still feel like I got away cheap :)
Yeah, its' good practice to tip on the value of the free stuff you're given IMO :cheers:
What'd you think of the Blanche de Chambly?
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2013, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
20% baby! :yeah:
You're not all bad, garbo. Though I do like to tip at least $5 if I'm eating by myself or if 20% would not be equal to $5, which I consider a minimum table fee.
Well waitstaff gotta eat too. Also, generally in New York when alone 20% is at least 5 bucks.
$5 in SC > $5 in NYC, tho. I'd probably have to adjust it upward for your debased currency.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 18, 2013, 01:55:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2013, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 10, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
Even when I am eating at a place where the tip is included I still give my server a tip they can keep for themselves.
Sure, but over here it would be between 5 and 10 percent depending on price of the meal and quality of service.
20% baby! :yeah:
You're not all bad, garbo. Though I do like to tip at least $5 if I'm eating by myself or if 20% would not be equal to $5, which I consider a minimum table fee.
Well waitstaff gotta eat too. Also, generally in New York when alone 20% is at least 5 bucks.
$5 in SC > $5 in NYC, tho. I'd probably have to adjust it upward for your debased currency.
Meals are generally also more than 25, so 20% is greater than 5. :P
What's with the recent rash of quote spamming. :ultra:
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:47:35 PM
Quote from: fhdz on July 10, 2013, 07:43:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 10, 2013, 07:34:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 10, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
I didn't read all that. But I agree. Add $2 to my meal, pay the watiress well, and get that over with.
$2, eh? I bet you're beloved at your local eateries.
Dude. Read it again. He doesn't say he tips $2. He said raise the price of the meal $2 AND pay the waitress a living wage.
Really? I wasn't aware that restaurants, like the Treasury, were permitted to print money. That changes everything.
I'd say you need about $3-5 a head for a living wage, depending upon volume and efficiency.
That said, I was mainly funning, Joe. No offense meant, I hope none taken.
No offence. But yeah, you missed the point ;) But yeah, I didn't do an actuarial study, I pulled that two bucks out of the hat, and was thinking not for a big dinner in a nice restauant, but say on an average $10-12 lunch at a roadhouse type place.