Something I've been wondering about. Putin is a despot, you can't say that Russia has a democracy with straight face, (I'm not sure you could ever say that really), but is it an improvement? Since the Soviet Union lasted quite a while I suppose I should reduce the time scale a bit. I'm thinking of the Soviet Union under Brezhnev and co. It's a long and stable period of Soviet history. The Soviet Union of the mid to late 1980's is bit to chaotic to gauge and the being starved only half to death is an improvement over Stalinist period. I should clarify what I mean when I say"better off", as well. Does the average person have more personal wealth? Do they have more personal freedom, economic freedom, and political freedom?
We do get a lot of porn from them now. But a lot of it is just icky.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv218%2Farekthorn%2FLincoln20Rape.jpg&hash=264e589cc87a1fa98c1ee9628e5a842e496cc333)
Of course they're better off. And as much as I hate to say it, since I miss traditional Bad Guys(tm), so are we. I'm sure the majority of the former Soviet Republics would agree as well.
I think the immediate post-Soviet era with Boris had such growing pains in learning the new economy that it wound up breaking the Russians, though.
Well, the average Russian today is maybe better off than during the turbulent 90's. A little bit at least. Russia's never had what you'd call good governance so it's a tough call.
Ask some Russians ? :unsure:
Yes, they're vastly better of materially, and not really less free politically. The only downside is that there is still plenty of political uncertainty. The screws are still being tightened, no one knows what Putin's end game is, no one knows what Russia's guiding ideology is apart from being a thorn in America's side, and there is no mechanism for the transition of power. What would happen if Putin decides to fly barechested into space, to wrestle polar bears in weightlessness, and something wond horrible happens?
Gulags are closed.
Quote from: mongers on July 02, 2013, 06:28:26 PM
Ask some Russians ? :unsure:
They all seem rather happy at Best Buy and Home Depot, walking around with their shirts all unbuttoned with their gold medallions and shit. I YAM EPIC WIN
They're equally aware that they could be better off.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 02, 2013, 06:34:42 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 02, 2013, 06:28:26 PM
Ask some Russians ? :unsure:
They all seem rather happy at Best Buy and Home Depot, walking around with their shirts all unbuttoned with their gold medallions and shit. I YAM EPIC WIN
Somehow I doubt this thread was about Russians living here.
Quote from: Liep on July 02, 2013, 06:38:29 PM
They're equally aware that they could be better off.
It's definitely tough to live there. Whenever I see home videos from there, people are getting into car accidents and/or fights.
Stop googling for Russian Dashcams then, even if they are entertaining. :P
Quote from: Liep on July 02, 2013, 06:48:01 PM
Stop googling for Russian Dashcams then, even if they are entertaining. :P
I don't. :huh: I just visit ru-chp.
I'm not sure. They're undoubtedly better off than in the 90s. They're more free than they were under the Soviets and materially better off. On the other hand life expectancy in Russia has plummeted since the 80s, though again I think it's creeping back up from Yeltsin era lows. Also from friends who've lived in Russia they say bits of it are just unstable and quite dangerous, there's a lot of crime and a lot of violence.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 06:49:25 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 02, 2013, 06:48:01 PM
Stop googling for Russian Dashcams then, even if they are entertaining. :P
I don't. :huh: I just visit ru-chp.
Interesting site, but hardly every day home videos. Doesn't that say Extreme Events? Also, 3rd video is Danish and Swedish hooligans fighting. :D
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 06:44:05 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 02, 2013, 06:38:29 PM
They're equally aware that they could be better off.
It's definitely tough to live there. Whenever I see home videos from there, people are getting into car accidents and/or fights.
If nothing else, it's probably easier for those who want to do so to emigrate.
Quote from: garbon on July 02, 2013, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 02, 2013, 06:34:42 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 02, 2013, 06:28:26 PM
Ask some Russians ? :unsure:
They all seem rather happy at Best Buy and Home Depot, walking around with their shirts all unbuttoned with their gold medallions and shit. I YAM EPIC WIN
Somehow I doubt this thread was about Russians living here.
Yakov Smirnoff's life is definitely not better now. :(
21st century vs. 20th century, even nations with visible declines in relative prosperity are better off. Hurray for technology.
Quote from: Tyr on July 02, 2013, 10:19:27 PM
21st century vs. 20th century, even nations with visible declines in relative prosperity are better off. Hurray for technology.
:( this thread isn't about the northern UK
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 06:49:43 PM
I'm not sure. They're undoubtedly better off than in the 90s. They're more free than they were under the Soviets and materially better off. On the other hand life expectancy in Russia has plummeted since the 80s, though again I think it's creeping back up from Yeltsin era lows. Also from friends who've lived in Russia they say bits of it are just unstable and quite dangerous, there's a lot of crime and a lot of violence.
Some to a lot of that just wasn't being reported. Thousands of Soviets were dying for nothing in an extremely violent war in Afghanistan, and by the 80s the rot of Brezhnev could no longer support itself.
I think it's kind of a silly question because the USSR as it entered the 80s was just not going to survive in any recognizable fashion in to the current period. Even if it limped on in to the 90s, the productivity boom associated with the internet would just fucking destroy what remained of the economy.
It would have been interesting seeing how the Soviet Union & Eastern Bloc would have dealt with the internet.
Only way I'd see the USSR surviving today if someone other than Brezhnev took power in 1964. Trying to massively expand your role in the world while simultaneously allowing the economy to whither on the vine is just not a long-term sustainable strategy.
Not that differently from modern China or Russia I'd imagine.
Quote from: Queequeg on July 02, 2013, 10:37:57 PM
Not that differently from modern China or Russia I'd imagine.
I was thinking it'd be similar to China, but attempting to be more restrictive & being less successful in enforcement.
But ultimately while the Chicom regime can survive in the internet age, a Soviet Union would not be able to survive very long.
Quote from: derspiess on July 02, 2013, 10:36:34 PM
It would have been interesting seeing how the Soviet Union & Eastern Bloc would have dealt with the internet.
Yeah, that would be interesting. The Soviet Union and eastern Europe was more repressive then China is now, and China has constant labor struggles and riots. I'm thinking it would be more like Belarus.
I really think in the case of the eastern block still being around they would go for attempting a parallel internet.
Quote from: Tyr on July 03, 2013, 02:45:28 AM
I really think in the case of the eastern block still being around they would go for attempting a parallel internet.
Yes, because they'd need to keep parity over the Internet Gap...
Quote from: Tyr on July 03, 2013, 02:45:28 AM
I really think in the case of the eastern block still being around they would go for attempting a parallel internet.
What was Soviet porn like anyway?
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 03, 2013, 02:45:28 AM
I really think in the case of the eastern block still being around they would go for attempting a parallel internet.
What was Soviet porn like anyway?
It mainly consisted of pin-ups of Brezhnev's wife.
I don't know if the russians are better off, but the rest of the world certainly is.
Quote from: Siege on July 03, 2013, 08:26:52 AM
I don't know if the russians are better off, but the rest of the world certainly is.
Including Israel?
Quote from: derspiess on July 02, 2013, 10:36:34 PM
It would have been interesting seeing how the Soviet Union & Eastern Bloc would have dealt with the internet.
Do you really have to wonder?
See: North Korea.
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2013, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 02, 2013, 10:36:34 PM
It would have been interesting seeing how the Soviet Union & Eastern Bloc would have dealt with the internet.
Do you really have to wonder?
See: North Korea.
Elaborate.
See: North Korea, the country just to the north of South Korea.
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2013, 10:34:51 AM
See: North Korea, the country just to the north of South Korea.
Whoa. Don't let the rage consume you.
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2013, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 02, 2013, 10:36:34 PM
It would have been interesting seeing how the Soviet Union & Eastern Bloc would have dealt with the internet.
Do you really have to wonder?
See: North Korea.
Why do you think that North Korea is a better model for what could have happened in the Eastern bloc than say China or Vietnam?
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 03, 2013, 02:45:28 AM
I really think in the case of the eastern block still being around they would go for attempting a parallel internet.
What was Soviet porn like anyway?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbc1O4XTGcQ
Quote from: Queequeg on July 02, 2013, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 06:49:43 PM
I'm not sure. They're undoubtedly better off than in the 90s. They're more free than they were under the Soviets and materially better off. On the other hand life expectancy in Russia has plummeted since the 80s, though again I think it's creeping back up from Yeltsin era lows. Also from friends who've lived in Russia they say bits of it are just unstable and quite dangerous, there's a lot of crime and a lot of violence.
Some to a lot of that just wasn't being reported. Thousands of Soviets were dying for nothing in an extremely violent war in Afghanistan, and by the 80s the rot of Brezhnev could no longer support itself.
I think it's kind of a silly question because the USSR as it entered the 80s was just not going to survive in any recognizable fashion in to the current period. Even if it limped on in to the 90s, the productivity boom associated with the internet would just fucking destroy what remained of the economy.
Just 20/20 hindsight?
What percentage of the Kremlinologist and international relations experts at the time predicted the end of the Eastern Bloc ?
So I think plenty of people at the time thought the Soviet Union wasn't doomed to collapse, And there are probably plausible scenarios that would see it continuing for another couple of decades, perhaps. It wasn't inevitable and the sudden emergence of a iron first from Gorbachev's velvet glow might have retarded or changed the course of events.
Quote from: derspiess on July 03, 2013, 08:25:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
What was Soviet porn like anyway?
It mainly consisted of pin-ups of Brezhnev's wife.
Fun fact: they actually shared the same eyebrows.
Quote from: mongers on July 03, 2013, 05:31:52 PM
It wasn't inevitable and the sudden emergence of a iron first from Gorbachev's velvet glow might have retarded or changed the course of events.
Speaking of retarded...
Quote from: derspiess on July 03, 2013, 08:25:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 03, 2013, 02:45:28 AM
I really think in the case of the eastern block still being around they would go for attempting a parallel internet.
What was Soviet porn like anyway?
It mainly consisted of pin-ups of Brezhnev's wife.
. . . and Brezhnev himself.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.retronaut.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F04%2FLeonid-620x537.jpg&hash=20a0e67fc5c6f0b10435b2c75075790cbd399153)
Rough.
I got a Marxism boner.
My eyes!!1
The Russians aren't building new warships. Very sad. At least the Soviets would build something interesting now and again.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 06:44:05 PM
It's definitely tough to live there. Whenever I see home videos from there, people are getting into car accidents and/or fights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGEiA80ZL08
Quote from: Iormlund on July 04, 2013, 02:17:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 06:44:05 PM
It's definitely tough to live there. Whenever I see home videos from there, people are getting into car accidents and/or fights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGEiA80ZL08
Fake.
Quote from: Neil on July 04, 2013, 01:55:28 PM
The Russians aren't building new warships. Very sad. At least the Soviets would build something interesting now and again.
They're going in a different direction. Not so much a blue water philosophy anymore as it is a concentration on very territorial-specific aims much closer to Russian territorial shores--where the natural resources are.
Their entire shipbuilding industry has only finally started to settle down; Putin's only beginning to get warmed up and they're concentrating on what they want to accomplish the most: their nuclear deterrent with a new nuclear SSBN sub class, a new attack boat to replace the
Akula so they can dance with the
Virginia class, and their close-shore capabilities with a new corvette platform.
No, they're not interested in power projection past the GIUK gap anymore, and they're certainly not worried about carrier development, but they have some nifty albeit slowly-developing surface combat designs coming along. The Admiral Gorshkov–class frigate looks like it could be a right nasty bastard to fuck with. A very Russian design in typical "destroygate" hybridity: SSM-heavy, with a concentration on ASW.
No Anna Chapman pictures?