http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-commander-ss-led-unit-living-us-101016457.html
QuoteA top commander of a Nazi SS-led unit accused of burning villages filled with women and children lied to American immigration officials to get into the United States and has been living in Minnesota since shortly after World War II, according to evidence uncovered by The Associated Press.
Michael Karkoc, 94, told American authorities in 1949 that he had performed no military service during World War II, concealing his work as an officer and founding member of the SS-led Ukrainian Self Defense Legion and later as an officer in the SS Galician Division, according to records obtained by the AP through a Freedom of Information Act request. The Galician Division and a Ukrainian nationalist organization he served in were both on a secret American government blacklist of organizations whose members were forbidden from entering the United States at the time.
Though records do not show that Karkoc had a direct hand in war crimes, statements from men in his unit and other documentation confirm the Ukrainian company he commanded massacred civilians, and suggest that Karkoc was at the scene of these atrocities as the company leader. Nazi SS files say he and his unit were also involved in the 1944 Warsaw Uprising, in which the Nazis brutally suppressed a Polish rebellion against German occupation.
The U.S. Department of Justice has used lies about wartime service made in immigration papers to deport dozens of suspected Nazi war criminals. The evidence of Karkoc's wartime activities uncovered by AP has prompted German authorities to express interest in exploring whether there is enough to prosecute. In Germany, Nazis with "command responsibility" can be charged with war crimes even if their direct involvement in atrocities cannot be proven.
Karkoc refused to discuss his wartime past at his home in Minneapolis, and repeated efforts to set up an interview, using his son as an intermediary, were unsuccessful.
Efraim Zuroff, the lead Nazi hunter at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Jerusalem, said that based on his decades of experience pursuing Nazi war criminals, he expects that the evidence showing Karkoc lied to American officials and that his unit carried out atrocities is strong enough for deportation and war-crimes prosecution in Germany or Poland.
"In America this is a relatively easy case: If he was the commander of a unit that carried out atrocities, that's a no brainer," Zuroff said. "Even in Germany ... if the guy was the commander of the unit, then even if they can't show he personally pulled the trigger, he bears responsibility."
And another one...
More in the link just couldn't be bothered to copy all of it and re-format. :D
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That's a pretty reasonable question to ask Argentinians. :ph34r:
94? He sure had a good run.
Never trust a Uke.
Silly.
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
How old is your wife?!?
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
I am guessing you didnt have any kids with this wife.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 14, 2013, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
I am guessing you didnt have any kids with this wife.
Two. And both could pass as Germans.
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 11:26:03 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 14, 2013, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
I am guessing you didnt have any kids with this wife.
Two. And both could pass as Germans.
Presumably, those kids would be in their mid-60s or so now? :hmm:
Derspiess, are you Michael Biehn?
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That question is on every immigration/visa application form for the US:
Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activties; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies? http://chcidoameriky.cz/wp-content/uploads/formular-I-94W.jpg
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
I guess it's okay if you join it after 1946. At least you aren't a fair weather friend.
Quote from: Zanza on June 14, 2013, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That question is on every immigration/visa application form for the US:
Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activties; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?
http://chcidoameriky.cz/wp-content/uploads/formular-I-94W.jpg
How did you answer?
Quote from: DGuller on June 14, 2013, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 14, 2013, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That question is on every immigration/visa application form for the US:
Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activties; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?
http://chcidoameriky.cz/wp-content/uploads/formular-I-94W.jpg
How did you answer?
I only followed orders! :P
Quote from: Zanza on June 14, 2013, 01:33:04 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 14, 2013, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 14, 2013, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That question is on every immigration/visa application form for the US:
Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activties; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?
http://chcidoameriky.cz/wp-content/uploads/formular-I-94W.jpg
How did you answer?
:lol:
I only followed orders! :P
Quote from: Zanza on June 14, 2013, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That question is on every immigration/visa application form for the US:
Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activties; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?
http://chcidoameriky.cz/wp-content/uploads/formular-I-94W.jpg
Does anyone ever answer "yes" to that? :hmm:
I think the idea is to shortcut the deportation process when they find out you lied. I mean the other questions are similar: "Are you seeking entry to engage in criminal activities?"
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
Does anyone ever answer "yes" to that? :hmm:
IIRC there had been some cases in which it could not be proved that the applicant had lied about their past and so now immigration questions try to deal with that issue.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 14, 2013, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
Does anyone ever answer "yes" to that? :hmm:
IIRC there had been some cases in which it could not be proved that the applicant had lied about their past and so now immigration questions try to deal with that issue.
So, I commit genocide as a Nazi, and I'm a terrorist and a spy. The cops catch up to me, and I tell them "well, I never actually
lied about any of that to immigration", and without the benefit of this form, the cops have to say "sorry sir, our mistake" and let me go? :D
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 02:28:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 14, 2013, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
Does anyone ever answer "yes" to that? :hmm:
IIRC there had been some cases in which it could not be proved that the applicant had lied about their past and so now immigration questions try to deal with that issue.
So, I commit genocide as a Nazi, and I'm a terrorist and a spy. The cops catch up to me, and I tell them "well, I never actually lied about any of that to immigration", and without the benefit of this form, the cops have to say "sorry sir, our mistake" and let me go? :D
Then can still prosecute you for war crimes, but they can't revoke your citizenship.
Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2013, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 02:28:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 14, 2013, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
Does anyone ever answer "yes" to that? :hmm:
IIRC there had been some cases in which it could not be proved that the applicant had lied about their past and so now immigration questions try to deal with that issue.
So, I commit genocide as a Nazi, and I'm a terrorist and a spy. The cops catch up to me, and I tell them "well, I never actually lied about any of that to immigration", and without the benefit of this form, the cops have to say "sorry sir, our mistake" and let me go? :D
Then can still prosecute you for war crimes, but they can't revoke your citizenship.
Yeah, exactly. The issue on revocation is whether the person was dishonest when they applied for citizenship.
Heh, in that case, a clever tactic would be to answer "yes". I bet that 100% of the time people answer "yes" to that question, it is because they are confused/mentally impared/don't read English too well, and it gets more or less ignored by the bureaucrats processing the form. :D
Speaking of confused/mentally impaired, half the people participating in the naturalization ceremony started the oath by literally saying "I, State Your Name..."
One of those real-life Animal House moments.
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
Speaking of confused/mentally impaired, half the people participating in the naturalization ceremony started the oath by literally saying "I, State Your Name..."
One of those real-life Animal House moments.
Failure to Follow Instructions (FFI) they should have all been dismissed and try again six months later. j/k :lol:
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
Speaking of confused/mentally impaired, half the people participating in the naturalization ceremony started the oath by literally saying "I, State Your Name..."
One of those real-life Animal House moments.
:hmm: I've been to two of them, and I didn't hear any of that. Maybe you guys get the dregs that New York didn't want.
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 14, 2013, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 09:17:32 AM
On my wife's naturalization application we had to answer whether she was a member of the SS between 1933-1945. She answered "no" and I guess I'll have to take her word for it.
That question is on every immigration/visa application form for the US:
Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activties; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?
http://chcidoameriky.cz/wp-content/uploads/formular-I-94W.jpg
Does anyone ever answer "yes" to that? :hmm:
In order to answer honestly, wouldn't concentration camp survivors have to say "yes"? After all, they were involved in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany. Sure, as the victims, not the perpertators, but the way it's worded it doesn't make that distinction.
It's Hortlund & Albert Speer's love child.
Quote from: DGuller on June 14, 2013, 06:17:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 14, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
Speaking of confused/mentally impaired, half the people participating in the naturalization ceremony started the oath by literally saying "I, State Your Name..."
One of those real-life Animal House moments.
:hmm: I've been to two of them, and I didn't hear any of that. Maybe you guys get the dregs that New York didn't want.
In West Virginia? Nah.
Maybe it defeats the purpose of justice, but it seems at this point we should let the matter rest. This person did oversee some atrocious things in his life, but surely the crimes of Nazi Germany have been paid for. Do we need to track down every last elderly vestige of it and try them?
I wonder what these 'Nazi Hunters' will do when they're done shaking down old folks homes. :P
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
Maybe it defeats the purpose of justice, but it seems at this point we should let the matter rest. This person did oversee some atrocious things in his life, but surely the crimes of Nazi Germany have been paid for. Do we need to track down every last elderly vestige of it and try them?
Yes. Every last one.
Quote from: fahdiz on June 15, 2013, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
Maybe it defeats the purpose of justice, but it seems at this point we should let the matter rest. This person did oversee some atrocious things in his life, but surely the crimes of Nazi Germany have been paid for. Do we need to track down every last elderly vestige of it and try them?
Yes. Every last one.
+1 hunt them all down.
Do some reading Jaron
Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust
The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland
Some of the Nazi allied-fighters in the Eastern Front I actually think have historically been "lumped in" as bad guys just because they were wearing the wrong uniforms. A lot of them were just trying to fight against a Soviet invasion. But yeah, this guy while it is seems likely he may have joined up to fight the Soviets seems to have mostly spent his time on internal policing along the lines of massacring troublesome groups of civilians, so I don't think he's one who has been unfairly maligned by history. At 94 any prosecution is mostly a joke, but the evidence against this guy seems very strong. The other old American dude--Demjanjuk or whatever, I've never been 100% convinced he actually did anything. It seems like he could have legitimately just been the victim of a case of mistaken identity, at least enough doubt existed in my mind I would not have voted guilty if I was a juror in his trial (moot point since he was not tried in an American court.)
Should have vetoed his admittance on being a Uke to start with.
Quote from: 11B4V on June 15, 2013, 02:52:44 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on June 15, 2013, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
Maybe it defeats the purpose of justice, but it seems at this point we should let the matter rest. This person did oversee some atrocious things in his life, but surely the crimes of Nazi Germany have been paid for. Do we need to track down every last elderly vestige of it and try them?
Yes. Every last one.
+1 hunt them all down.
Do some reading Jaron
Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust
The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland
And that reading would convince him that it's a good idea to hunt down a bunch of old men? That seems unlikely. After all, by now everyone realizes that the only reason they're being punished is that they lost the war.
Quote from: katmai on June 15, 2013, 07:06:43 PM
Should have vetoed his admittance on being a Uke to start with.
:thumbsup:
Ah, I see your point now.
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
I wonder what these 'Nazi Hunters' will do when they're done shaking down old folks homes. :P
Since most of them having been working hard to conflate fighting antisemitism/Nazis with unconditional support for Israel, I guess they'll just drop the "Nazis" part...
Let the Canadians have all them damn dirty people.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2013, 10:57:31 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 15, 2013, 09:20:06 PM
Quote from: PDH on June 15, 2013, 08:05:33 PM
Quote from: katmai on June 15, 2013, 07:06:43 PM
Should have vetoed his admittance on being a Uke to start with.
:thumbsup:
:mad:
I thought you were now upgraded to "Jew".
There is no possible upgrade from Uke. Even Jews, as fine as they are, could but wish they were Ukrainian. -_-