Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure Hamas can really surrender. I can't see how they could surrender purely practically?

They're effectively running Gaza - but they're not a state, they don't have an army, there's no overall commander who can sign a surrender. They can no more surrender than any other terrorist group can. There'd be splinter groups, probably internal fights for control of the "brand".

It's one of the things about peace processes with terrorist organisations is making sure that the person in the terrorist group you're talking to has the internal credibility and clout to bring the rest of their movement with them, without it just splintering into a hundred small terrorist organisations - especially with an umbrella group like Hamas. And you need to maintain that other parties internal credibility which is challenging for a normal state.

[OttoVonBismarck]

They do have an Army, their 24 organized brigades (of which I think all but 6 have been destroyed.) And they do have a military leadership, but certainly their effective C&C is in very bad right now.

I have seen floated ideas of letting the military leadership inside the strip take exile in Qatar or Algeria or something as part of a peace deal.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah but I think a crucial bit of an army is that it will follow orders and I'm just not sure that's the case. If the annoucement came that "we have surrendered, lay down your arms", I don't think it would happen and I think that means it's not really an army in the way we would undertand. It's paramilitaries, militias - but not something with the discipline, order-following bit of a real military.

If the military leadership surrender and then go into exile in Qatar - how likely is it that the Hamas footsoldiers will follow the order to surrender? They're situation hasn't changed and they've not been bought off or offered a tax free lifestyle in the Gulf.

Their level of support and ability would diminish if Hamas "surrendered" because Iran would need to find a new group, there'd be internal fights for control and - I'd guess - probably eventual consolidation, but that might take a long time. But I don't think it would end the risk to Israel of Gaza - especially as attacking Israel is the way to build credibility and legitimacy.

[viper37]

Israel is not the only ones able to stop the war. Hamas can surrender and the humanitarian disaster is over tomorrow.

How do they do that?  Who will surrender?  Who will accept that the surrender is total?

You come from the point of view that Israel is content with Hamas destruction and will leave the Palestinian alone after that.  That is a very naive view.

So, Hamas "surrenders", Israel says goodbye, kiss Palestinians on the cheek, "see you next month" packs things and go home?  All is good and well?  No more colonization, no more Israeli troops in Gaza, no more bombardments, self determination for all remaining Palestinians and the territory is back to its pre-war status?

[Tamas]

Israel is not the only ones able to stop the war. Hamas can surrender and the humanitarian disaster is over tomorrow.

How do they do that?  Who will surrender?  Who will accept that the surrender is total?

You come from the point of view that Israel is content with Hamas destruction and will leave the Palestinian alone after that.  That is a very naive view.

So, Hamas "surrenders", Israel says goodbye, kiss Palestinians on the cheek, "see you next month" packs things and go home?  All is good and well?  No more colonization, no more Israeli troops in Gaza, no more bombardments, self determination for all remaining Palestinians and the territory is back to its pre-war status?

What you seem to be arguing for is that Hamas' existence is justified by the ills afflicted on Palestinians by Israel.

[Razgovory]

Egypt is building a buffer zone near the border with concrete walls and such to make sure Palestinians won't overflow into Egypt. Grim.

You probably won't hear the protesters about that so it's okay.

I can see what you're doing here. Trying play the old game of people looking out for Palestinian human rights are just looking for an excuse to be anti semitic.

In fairness there are some who oppose Israel because it is supported by the US.  But really, not even Palestinians are that concerned with Palestinian human rights.  See statements by Hamas.

[crazy canuck]

So again, Hamas is being equated with all Palestinians. 

Are you just not understanding the nuances or are you just purposefully ignoring them because it suits your worldview to do so?

[Razgovory]

So again, Hamas is being equated with all Palestinians. 

Are you just not understanding the nuances or are you just purposefully ignoring them because it suits your worldview to do so?

They are Palestinians, I didn't say ALL Palestinians.  But they are Palestinians and they are in a leadership position and they don't give a shit what happens to their people.

[crazy canuck]

So again, Hamas is being equated with all Palestinians. 

Are you just not understanding the nuances or are you just purposefully ignoring them because it suits your worldview to do so?

They are Palestinians, I didn't say ALL Palestinians.  But they are Palestinians and they are in a leadership position and they don't give a shit what happens to their people.

Ok, then your grammar is just poor.  Fair enough.

[Josquius]

So again, Hamas is being equated with all Palestinians. 

Are you just not understanding the nuances or are you just purposefully ignoring them because it suits your worldview to do so?

They are Palestinians, I didn't say ALL Palestinians.  But they are Palestinians and they are in a leadership position and they don't give a shit what happens to their people.

That's a pretty naff phrasing. Go to any country in the world and you'll find child abusers, murderers, and people who work in kitchens but don't wash their hands.
Still couldn't really say " Irish are constantly scratching their nuts" because of Micky MacGuire.

[Razgovory]

So again, Hamas is being equated with all Palestinians. 

Are you just not understanding the nuances or are you just purposefully ignoring them because it suits your worldview to do so?

They are Palestinians, I didn't say ALL Palestinians.  But they are Palestinians and they are in a leadership position and they don't give a shit what happens to their people.

That's a pretty naff phrasing. Go to any country in the world and you'll find child abusers, murderers, and people who work in kitchens but don't wash their hands.
Still couldn't really say " Irish are constantly scratching their nuts" because of Micky MacGuire.

I use it the same way as I would say "The Russians don't care if their people killed in Ukraine."  You wouldn't have a problem with that.  In fact I've said things like that here before and you didn't seem bothered.

[Josquius]

]

I use it the same way as I would say "The Russians don't care if their people killed in Ukraine."  You wouldn't have a problem with that.  In fact I've said things like that here before and you didn't seem bothered.

Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship with a very definite strong central leadership who are the ones ordering troops to their death.

Palestine is quite a mess. Hamas have a strongest gang on the block sort of rule over  the lesser part of it.
To speak of the Palestinians referring even to the proper Palestinian government isn't such a strong link as with russia. To say it referring to Hamas is extra weird.

[viper37]

Israel is not the only ones able to stop the war. Hamas can surrender and the humanitarian disaster is over tomorrow.

How do they do that?  Who will surrender?  Who will accept that the surrender is total?

You come from the point of view that Israel is content with Hamas destruction and will leave the Palestinian alone after that.  That is a very naive view.

So, Hamas "surrenders", Israel says goodbye, kiss Palestinians on the cheek, "see you next month" packs things and go home?  All is good and well?  No more colonization, no more Israeli troops in Gaza, no more bombardments, self determination for all remaining Palestinians and the territory is back to its pre-war status?

What you seem to be arguing for is that Hamas' existence is justified by the ills afflicted on Palestinians by Israel.

No.  I am arguing that Israel will not stop the war because some top leaders of Hamas surrender themselves.  Israel wants the territory.  They've said so already more than once. They don't want Palestinians to manage the place, they don't want Palestinians to be there at all.

If low level Hamas foot soldiers surrenders, it's obviously not enough.  If some top level executive of Hamas leadership announce some form of surrender but some foot soldiers keep on fighting/committing terrorism actions, even if not affiliated with Hamas, Israel will use it as a justification to keep attacking and occupying the territories.

Only Israel can make peace.  Hamas is not a real government, and even if it was, it can't do shit unless Israel allows it.

[Razgovory]

]

I use it the same way as I would say "The Russians don't care if their people killed in Ukraine."  You wouldn't have a problem with that.  In fact I've said things like that here before and you didn't seem bothered.

Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship with a very definite strong central leadership who are the ones ordering troops to their death.

Palestine is quite a mess. Hamas have a strongest gang on the block sort of rule over  the lesser part of it.
To speak of the Palestinians referring even to the proper Palestinian government isn't such a strong link as with russia. To say it referring to Hamas is extra weird.

Yes, you have already expressed you belief that nobody in Palestine is responsible for anything.  They are just an innocent child-people, entirely passive.

[Josquius]

]

I use it the same way as I would say "The Russians don't care if their people killed in Ukraine."  You wouldn't have a problem with that.  In fact I've said things like that here before and you didn't seem bothered.

Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship with a very definite strong central leadership who are the ones ordering troops to their death.

Palestine is quite a mess. Hamas have a strongest gang on the block sort of rule over  the lesser part of it.
To speak of the Palestinians referring even to the proper Palestinian government isn't such a strong link as with russia. To say it referring to Hamas is extra weird.

Yes, you have already expressed you belief that nobody in Palestine is responsible for anything.  They are just an innocent child-people, entirely passive.

... Wut?
This reply makes zero sense. You might as well have just said potato potato potato.