Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

Has anyone seen a breakdown of civilian deaths from the evacuation zone and the "safe" zone?

[viper37]

Has anyone seen a breakdown of civilian deaths from the evacuation zone and the "safe" zone?

All numbers come from Hamas ministry of Health, and the only other thing we had is the US saying the number was underestimated.
There is no breakdown by location.  You have a breakdown by age and sex:
70% of casualties are women, children and the elderly

And of course, the hotbed of Hamas activity that is the West Bank according
to Raz:

Armed violence has also increased in the West Bank, as the total number of Palestinian fatalities by Israeli forces or settlers since 7 October amounts to more than 150, including 44 children. According to OCHA, the number of Palestinians killed in the West Bank since 7 October accounts for more than one-third of all Palestinian fatalities in the West Bank in 2023. Since 7 October, Israeli forces have injured 2,340 Palestinians, including at least 248 children, over half of them in the context of demonstrations. In a large-scale operation on July 3-4, 2023, Israeli forces in Jenin City and the Jenin Refugee Camp caused 12 Palestinian fatalities, including four children, marking the highest West Bank operation casualties since 2005. The aftermath included damage to hundreds of housing units, displacing over 500 families, with approximately 41 families still displaced. Between January 2021 and September 2023, 165 Palestinians, including 53 boys and 28 girls, were killed in the Gaza Strip, with 133 fatalities in 2021 alone, highlighting a pre-existing pattern of attacks prior to October 7. The majority of casualties were caused by air-launched explosive weapons, resulting in 2,843 injuries during this period.

[OttoVonBismarck]

He is clearly indicating the IDF will occupy Gaza.

So.  You said before there were 2.3 million inhabitants in Gaza before the war and there would still be 2.3 million inhabitants in Gaza after the war.  Anything else amounted to blood libel against Israel.  Care to revise your statement?  Because it's pretty clear that the people won't return there.

I mean, there are still around 2.3m people in Gaza. And no, most aren't going anywhere. Nothing Netanyahu has said contradicts that.

He is clearly indicating the IDF will occupy Gaza.

So.  You said before there were 2.3 million inhabitants in Gaza before the war and there would still be 2.3 million inhabitants in Gaza after the war.  Anything else amounted to blood libel against Israel.  Care to revise your statement?  Because it's pretty clear that the people won't return there.

[viper37]

He is clearly indicating the IDF will occupy Gaza.

So.  You said before there were 2.3 million inhabitants in Gaza before the war and there would still be 2.3 million inhabitants in Gaza after the war.  Anything else amounted to blood libel against Israel.  Care to revise your statement?  Because it's pretty clear that the people won't return there.

I mean, there are still around 2.3m people in Gaza. And no, most aren't going anywhere. Nothing Netanyahu has said contradicts that.

Where are they going to live?

[crazy canuck]

Just in case someone was still in denial about the future plans for Gaza:
'We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023,' Israeli Minister Says on Northern Gaza Strip Evacuation - Israel News - Haaretz.com

I'm not sure who to believe about the intentions of the Israeli cabinet. A member of the cabinet or Otto who has assured me that this is definitely not the intention of the Israeli cabinet.

So re. the cabinet, the agricultural minister said "yeah maybe", the PM said a clear no. Not that Bibi can be trusted at all.

Bibi already said they will occupy Gaza after the war.

Didn't they occupy it for decades? Did they eradicate/chase off the population? It bloody doubled during that time.

According to the article the only thing Bibi has ruled out is resettlement.  And that is undoubtedly true, resettlement in the short to medium term would not be viable.

But occupation is a different thing and particularly since cabinet ministers are talking about another Nakba.

That is a reference to forcing the Palestinians out and not allowing them to return.

The first Nakba is one of the reasons Gaza is so densely populated, the Palestinians who had lived in territory claimed by Israel were denied the right to return after the war.

When you see signs talking about the right to return, that is what they are talking about.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Where are they going to live?

In Gaza. You seem confused, frankly.

When you see signs talking about the right to return, that is what they are talking about.

The right to return is the belief that if you just really strongly insist, wars and their outcomes don't matter. There is a reason non-imbecile cultures (and I struggle to use that word for the Germans, who are very imbecilic in most ways) don't insist on a right to return and just move on with their lives. I don't know of any German right to return groups for the Eastern Territories (and they held 13 million Germans who were displaced after 1945.)

The Palestinians should have gone to Jordan and Egypt, Jordan and Egypt should have broadly accepted them and told them that they had lost a bad war and now had to accept the reality of Israel. Instead they spent decades keeping them penned up like animals and telling them "soon" the big war would come and they'd finally finish Israel off. I will note that Egypt, in particular has a significant moral responsibility because the Egyptians were the largest, most powerful Arab state in the 1950s-1980s, and were the party most directly responsible for spearheading the disastrous wars against Israel that resulted in all the Palestinian land losses from 1948-1972. Egypt is also a huge country population wise, and could have actually just absorbed all the Palestinians.

Eventually Egypt and Jordan chilled out on Israel and the Palestinians were left in their pens.

What Egypt and Jordan have done to the Palestinians--and recognize they were just the front lines of the greater Arab world, would have been akin to the Germans making the displaced Eastern provinces Germans live in small ghettoized areas on the eastern border, never able to accrue normal citizenship or other rights.

[Admiral Yi]

Fun fact I picked up on NPR a while back: in addition to the Quatari money that had been going to Gaza, the Palestinian Authority was (presumably still is) paying the salaries of 50,000 people.  So I'm guessing like those Health Ministry folks are paid by the PA.

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/l5R3DYpmxms

Unspecified "Spanish Minister" says Israel is carrying out a "planned genocide" and says they are guilty of war crimes.

[The Brain]

The minister probably thinks that the movie epic 1492 covered the wrong subject.

[Iormlund]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/l5R3DYpmxms

Unspecified "Spanish Minister" says Israel is carrying out a "planned genocide" and says they are guilty of war crimes.

She's a token minister from Podemos (head of Social Policy).

You can safely disregard anything she says.

[Duque de Bragança]

The minister probably thinks that the movie epic 1492 covered the wrong subject.

I prefer the mini-series with Gabriel Byrne as Columbus, anyways.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088916/

Yes, it also features Max von Sydow as King of Portugal D.João II.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Is the 1492 movie the one with Gerard Depardieu that basically says Columbus never did anything wrong and was actually trying to protect the innocent natives from other evil Spaniards, but was screwed over by his corrupt enemies? Lol.

[Admiral Yi]

She's a token minister from Podemos (head of Social Policy).

You can safely disregard anything she says.

Disregarding people who say stupid things would deprive me of a great deal of entertainment.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Is the 1492 movie the one with Gerard Depardieu that basically says Columbus never did anything wrong and was actually trying to protect the innocent natives from other evil Spaniards, but was screwed over by his corrupt enemies? Lol.

great music though.

[Duque de Bragança]

Not that simplistic, as far as I recall it. Out of his depth as a governor for sure, bad delegation of powers as well. Should have stayed as one of the best sailors of his time.
OTOH, evil cruel and jealous noble Spaniards certainly played a part in his fall, according to the movie.

Need to (re)watch the one with Magnum as king of Aragon.  Plus Brando as Torquemada phoning in his lines to the extreme.   

PS: last great Vangelis score indeed, as pointed out by Crazy Ivan.