Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

Heard on PBS that Bibi is absolutely opposed to the PA running Gaza.  And of course the PA has said they will do it only if something is done about two state.

Awesome. We are sticking our neck out for them and we don't even have their support.

It's almost like Bibi fucking wants Hamas in control of Gaza.

[Jacob]

My understanding is that Nethanyahu's government supported Hamas in Hamas' fight with the Palestinian Authority.

[Barrister]

My understanding is that Nethanyahu's government supported Hamas in Hamas' fight with the Palestinian Authority.

Source?

[Jacob]

Somewhere in this thread, I'm pretty sure. But I'll fire up the google machine and see if I can find something more persuasive.

[Jacob]

Oh yeah, I read this article in the Times of Israel back when it was published on October 8th: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces

Here's a CBC article from Oct 28th, that itself includes a number of links to other sources: How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel - The Israeli leader and Hamas are deadly enemies — and allies in opposing a 2-state solution

Here's a Politico piece in which Nethanyahu dismisses the allegations, but also with a number of people making those allegations: Netanyahu: Don't accuse me of boosting Hamas with Qatari money

From the last article:

Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a leading example of a politician who takes that version of events with a pinch of salt. "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas," he previously told POLITICO. "Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza."

Most incriminatingly, Netanyahu himself said in 2019 at a Likud party conference: "Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas."

[Solmyr]

Bibi needs to go as badly as Hamas does.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Oh yeah, I read this article in the Times of Israel back when it was published on October 8th: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces

Here's a CBC article from Oct 28th, that itself includes a number of links to other sources: How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel - The Israeli leader and Hamas are deadly enemies — and allies in opposing a 2-state solution

Here's a Politico piece in which Nethanyahu dismisses the allegations, but also with a number of people making those allegations: Netanyahu: Don't accuse me of boosting Hamas with Qatari money

From the last article:

Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a leading example of a politician who takes that version of events with a pinch of salt. "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas," he previously told POLITICO. "Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza."

Most incriminatingly, Netanyahu himself said in 2019 at a Likud party conference: "Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas."

Most of this stretches the definition of "boost", Israel chose not to militarily intervene in the Hamas-Fatah civil war, and didn't take extreme actions to prevent UN money and other aid money (which often was coming from Qatar) to the Gaza Strip. Bibi also expressed satisfaction that Hamas control of Gaza effectively kept Palestine divided and unable to effectively lobby for statehood.

Trying to indicate that Netanyahu "made this mess", which is what this line of thinking regularly implies, is a bigger stretch. To stop this mess Israel would have needed to be willing to militarily re-invade Gaza back in 2008 when the Hamas-Fatah conflict broke out, to use force to re-establish PA control of Gaza. That in itself would have been a hugely controversial act--possibly as controversial and unpopular with the left and the Arab world as the current war is. Also factual evidence shows the PA could not have maintained control of Gaza by itself, this would have meant essentially IDF resuming permanent security control inside the strip, in a situation similar to the West Bank. Again, a very controversial and unpopular scenario that would have not been trivial to do in terms of political and diplomatic capital.

To stop Hamas from getting any money at all or any supplies (much of which it has used to arm and fortify), would have required a blockade more serious than the one that has existed since 2008 and which itself was massively controversial among the left, the Arab world, and various anti-Israel / pro-Palestine factions powerful throughout Europe etc.

Dismissing the fairly tenuous claim of Israel "boosting Hamas", a more apt linkage to the current regime and culpability for the massacres would instead be that the Likud coalition had long ignored Gaza border security in favor of helping extremist settlers in the West Bank and in pushing Israeli claims in East Jerusalem. Two things that were not strictly necessary for Israeli security and largely were just being done to advance maximalist / extremist annexationist positions in those areas. The systemic defunding and draw down of personnel from the Gaza border in favor of untested "technological" solutions was a terrible mistake and Likud's coalition was directly involved in those decisions--far more culpable for the situation right now through this than the "not wiping Hamas off the face of the earth 15 years ago when it would have been a massive diplomatic crisis to try and do so."

[viper37]

Oh yeah, I read this article in the Times of Israel back when it was published on October 8th: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces

Here's a CBC article from Oct 28th, that itself includes a number of links to other sources: How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel - The Israeli leader and Hamas are deadly enemies — and allies in opposing a 2-state solution

Here's a Politico piece in which Nethanyahu dismisses the allegations, but also with a number of people making those allegations: Netanyahu: Don't accuse me of boosting Hamas with Qatari money

From the last article:

Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a leading example of a politician who takes that version of events with a pinch of salt. "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas," he previously told POLITICO. "Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza."

Most incriminatingly, Netanyahu himself said in 2019 at a Likud party conference: "Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas."

Most of this stretches the definition of "boost", Israel chose not to militarily intervene in the Hamas-Fatah civil war, and didn't take extreme actions to prevent UN money and other aid money (which often was coming from Qatar) to the Gaza Strip. Bibi also expressed satisfaction that Hamas control of Gaza effectively kept Palestine divided and unable to effectively lobby for statehood.

Trying to indicate that Netanyahu "made this mess", which is what this line of thinking regularly implies, is a bigger stretch. To stop this mess Israel would have needed to be willing to militarily re-invade Gaza back in 2008 when the Hamas-Fatah conflict broke out, to use force to re-establish PA control of Gaza. That in itself would have been a hugely controversial act--possibly as controversial and unpopular with the left and the Arab world as the current war is. Also factual evidence shows the PA could not have maintained control of Gaza by itself, this would have meant essentially IDF resuming permanent security control inside the strip, in a situation similar to the West Bank. Again, a very controversial and unpopular scenario that would have not been trivial to do in terms of political and diplomatic capital.

To stop Hamas from getting any money at all or any supplies (much of which it has used to arm and fortify), would have required a blockade more serious than the one that has existed since 2008 and which itself was massively controversial among the left, the Arab world, and various anti-Israel / pro-Palestine factions powerful throughout Europe etc.

Dismissing the fairly tenuous claim of Israel "boosting Hamas", a more apt linkage to the current regime and culpability for the massacres would instead be that the Likud coalition had long ignored Gaza border security in favor of helping extremist settlers in the West Bank and in pushing Israeli claims in East Jerusalem. Two things that were not strictly necessary for Israeli security and largely were just being done to advance maximalist / extremist annexationist positions in those areas. The systemic defunding and draw down of personnel from the Gaza border in favor of untested "technological" solutions was a terrible mistake and Likud's coalition was directly involved in those decisions--far more culpable for the situation right now through this than the "not wiping Hamas off the face of the earth 15 years ago when it would have been a massive diplomatic crisis to try and do so."

When the Islamic Brotherhood created Hamas, Israel imprisoned their leaders and then let him go because he sworn he would only attack the PLO and not Israel.  Then they gave them shitload of money to fund Hamas.

On top of what is already written, we have these gems that I already posted:
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/

"The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset," Smotrich said at the time. "It's a terrorist organization, no one will recognize it, no one will give it status at the [International Criminal Court], no one will let it put forth a resolution at the U.N. Security Council."

You refuse to admit the evidence.  The Likud propped up Hamas because it was convenient, and it wasn't the first Isreali government to pick religious fundies over secular nationalism because it felt it was the lesser of two evils.  They chose war over peace with two states coexisting peacefully.  

The Likud is as much responsible for the deaths of this latest attacks as Hamas is.  Hamas was the executant, the Likud coalition was the enabler.

You call to destroy the Palestinian people and what's left of their state because somehown they support terrorism should find echo in the destitution of this government if your real concern if the safety of the Israeli citizens.

[Valmy]

Bibi needs to go as badly as Hamas does.

He has been nothing but an embarrassing problem for the United States since 1995. And, you know, currently threatening to turn Israel into Russia both domestically and internationally. He wants so badly to be Putin.

You refuse to admit the evidence.  The Likud propped up Hamas because it was convenient, and it wasn't the first Isreali government to pick religious fundies over secular nationalism because it felt it was the lesser of two evils.  They chose war over peace with two states coexisting peacefully. 

Continually undermining and humiliating the United States along the way I might add. I am so tired of them just taking us for granted and shitting all over our efforts.

[Josephus]

Netanyahu is a lot like Trump, though. Nothing really sticks to him. I mean the guy had all sorts of corruption charges levied against him, and he still wins. (yes, I know he only wins in Israel's multi-party system). Much as how most Israelis know Bibi is a lot to blame for the current situation (lots of evidence that he was warned countless times about this attack, starting a year ago, but chose to do nothing), in the end he will prevail as he always does. Like Trump.

[OttoVonBismarck]

When the Islamic Brotherhood created Hamas, Israel imprisoned their leaders and then let him go because he sworn he would only attack the PLO and not Israel.  Then they gave them shitload of money to fund Hamas.

This was and has already been discussed extensively in this thread. Yes, Israel (not Netanyahu, who wasn't in government in the 1980s) gave some funding to Hamas before they knew it was a terror group. They did release the quadriplegic leader of Hamas after a year in jail--but in the 80s and 90s Israel regularly released imprisoned Palestinians for any number of political reasons. Israel did not directly fund Hamas from state funds after they made the determination Hamas was a violent terror group.

Further, the growth of Hamas was directly linked to a larger movement throughout the Arab world towards Islamic militancy and away from secular Arab nationalism. Israel neither created, nor could have trivially controlled, such a movement. Trying to link Israeli policies in regards to Hamas to the present war is just very, very tortured.

Hamas became what it is today because of a generation of funding from Iran and Qatar. Before that it was one of any number of small Islamic militant groups in the area. The only way Israel could have stopped Hamas from becoming what it is today would have been to maintain their occupation of Gaza or to have imposed an even stricter blockade than they actually did--which by the way, you and most other antisemitic leftists have consistently called that blockade a grave violation of international law, so let's not pretend you would have been okay with an even stricter one.

On top of what is already written, we have these gems that I already posted:
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/

"The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset," Smotrich said at the time. "It's a terrorist organization, no one will recognize it, no one will give it status at the [International Criminal Court], no one will let it put forth a resolution at the U.N. Security Council."

You refuse to admit the evidence.  The Likud propped up Hamas because it was convenient, and it wasn't the first Isreali government to pick religious fundies over secular nationalism because it felt it was the lesser of two evils.  They chose war over peace with two states coexisting peacefully. 

The Likud is as much responsible for the deaths of this latest attacks as Hamas is.  Hamas was the executant, the Likud coalition was the enabler.

This has also already been addressed--in fact I addressed it in the very post you're responding to--yes, Likud found Hamas convenient. That isn't the same thing as "Likud is responsible for Hamas." Likud thinking (incorrectly it turns out) that Hamas control of Gaza was to its strategic benefit doesn't make Likud or Israel "responsible" for what Hamas does, nor does it constitute "propping up" Hamas.

As you have done time and time again in this thread you are lying, and lying badly.

Largely in an attempt to advocate for Hamas and against Jews. I continue to label you an antisemite, and now one that appears to say the Israeli civilians deserved to get raped and murdered on Oct 7th because a far right Israeli felt like Hamas control of Gaza was strategically beneficial to their aims.

This ignores the simple reality that whatever the Israelis "felt" about Hamas, they didn't create Hamas or prop it up--they didn't turn Hamas into the militant force it is today. Lots of Iranian and Qatari money did that, and the only way Israel could have stopped it would have been military intervention in the strip--the very thing you are so against right now.

[Josquius]

Amazing Otto continues to scream about others being liars whilst lying blatantly that others are pro-rape anti-semites.

FYI Israel absolutely could have greatly impeded the flow of money to Hamas. Beware of falling into a  Nirvana Fallacy where even a single penny getting through to Hamas constitutes a failure.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Amazing Otto continues to scream about others being liars whilst lying blatantly that others are pro-rape anti-semites.

FYI Israel absolutely could have greatly impeded the flow of money to Hamas. Beware of falling into a  Nirvana Fallacy where even a single penny getting through to Hamas constitutes a failure.

Israel did impede the flow of money to Hamas, it just didn't completely shut it off--and it could not have easily done so for international diplomatic / political reasons.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Some, however, do express open support for Hamas' actions. Hatem Teirelbar knows which side he's on. A senior at the University of Colorado Denver, the Egyptian national joined pro-Palestinian protesters last month outside a Global Conference for Israel held by a U.S. Zionist group that was planned before Oct.

An organizer for the Students for a Democratic Society in Denver, Mr. Teirelbar expressed support for the Oct. 7 attack on Israeli Jews.

This disgusting Islamic terrorist--who is a guest in this country, not here with any permanent right of abode, needs to be deported post haste.

[The Minsky Moment]

It's possible to say at the same time that Likud did not "cause" Hamas to arise to gain influence and yet also say that its tactics aided Hamas in its rise to power. And I agree that Bibi's position against PA administration in Gaza is a doubling down of that obviously failed policy. 

Bibi is the master of political tactics but in the service of nothing. Under his leadership, Israel has sought to undermine the possibility of a two-state solution at every turn.  At the same time, they will not annex the occupied territories because that would mean the Lebanonization of Israel. Which means the real policy is permanent occupation, an approach that provides grist to the mill of those who call Israel an apartheid state. And although that slur is technically inaccurate, the reality that Israel now rules over a permanent caste of de facto second class citizens is undeniable.

The ostensible justification for this policy is "security," but October 7 has buried that canard for good. Likud deluded Israel into thinking that the formula of fences + Iron Dome + high tech surveillance could secure Israel indefinitely from Palestinian aggression so long as the Palestinians were denied the resources of a state polity. One would have thought this century's experience would have taught everyone the damage that could be caused by non-state actors enjoying state level support or connivance. Israel believed that their technology and security expertise made them an exception. Wishful thinking -- Hamas harmed Israel more grievously than the most powerful of Arab states ever did.

The real justification has never been security but political tactics. Bibi has managed the fantastic balancing act of remaining on top of Israel's notorious fractious political system by mastering the intricacies of coalition building - melding together incongruent allies like secular hard-line militants and ultra-orthodox rebbes seeking their students exemption from military service. At the core of his base is the settler lobby - the one group with a powerful and permanent interest in ensuring that no peace ever exists between Israel and Palestinians. The consequence is a malign feedback loop, where Likud's pro-settler policy ensures settler support for Bibi while at the same time augmenting the ranks of the settlers and thus increasing their political clout.

That presents a problem for the United States, because while the US has an interest in supporting Israel in the abstract, and concretely in suppressing Hamas now, it has no interest in furthering the destabilizing Israeli non-policy policy in the territories.