Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

Talking out your ass is most like it.

What so hard to understand, there are probably two dozen Isreali-Americans/US citizens held hostage by hamas and 500-600 Palestinians-Americans who can't get out of Gaza due to the Rafah crossing being closed to them.

I applaud you for continuing to try to explain basic facts. But very few here want to hear anything but Israel is always right and any criticism of Israel is always wrong.

It is scary to see, but that is the world we live in.

I'm not sure why it is so hard for people to understand that it is possible to both condemn HAMAS and have concern for Palestinians. But again that is now the world we live in.

For me what is frustrating and telling is that there is no end to protests and articles about the tragedy that is inevitably unfolding in Gaza. Yet none of those protests or articles (apart from a sentence or two) let alone separate protests/articles aim to address the problem that Hamas -the government of Gaza- perpetrated a terror attack on hundreds if not thousands of Israeli civilians. That is already forgotten and gone from concerns of the general world. It seems if Israel opted to do nothing and simply return to the status quo, passively waiting for the next such massacre, that would be a-ok with a lot of people.

Why do you say that has been forgotten? Every world leader in the west that I hear says that Israel has a right to defend itself. 

And that statement was just recently repeated yesterday, but I pretty much every western government.

[Jacob]

I think Tamas is talking about mass demonstrations like the varies pro-Palestinian rallies being reported in various places in the West recently.

[Josquius]

What is there to protest about with Hamas?
"We agree with the establishment. Those guys are shits" isn't the stuff protests are made of.

[Jacob]

If you can have a "Israel! Stop killing innocents!" march it seems you could also have a "Hamas! Stop killing innocents!" march.

[Josquius]

If you can have a "Israel! Stop killing innocents!" march it seems you could also have a "Hamas! Stop killing innocents!" march.

Except that's clearly pointless. They're a terrorist group controlling an open air prison and the government is already in agreement with the position that they're very naughty boys.

With Israel on the other hand they are still a democracy, they're a normalish country with a functional economy, and in theory influencable by western pressure, and western governments do give them too much leeway.

[The Brain]

What is there to protest about with Hamas?
"We agree with the establishment. Those guys are shits" isn't the stuff protests are made of.

I regularly see anti-Iranian Government demonstrations in Stockholm.

[Admiral Yi]

After seeing some clips of bomb hits in Gaza I'm less inclined to use the term open air prison.  It's not exactly Gedi Prime.

@Squeeze: how about the possibility of influencing Palestinian and broader Arab public opinion that supports Hamas?

[Tamas]

If you can have a "Israel! Stop killing innocents!" march it seems you could also have a "Hamas! Stop killing innocents!" march.

Except that's clearly pointless. They're a terrorist group controlling an open air prison and the government is already in agreement with the position that they're very naughty boys.

With Israel on the other hand they are still a democracy, they're a normalish country with a functional economy, and in theory influencable by western pressure, and western governments do give them too much leeway.

So it's pointless to protest against violent evil organisations? Gotcha'

[Jacob]

I went to a few pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian demonstrations myself - in spite of Russia being about as democratic as Gaza.

I don't buy that argument, Josq.

[Jacob]

... especially as Hamas - and the Palestine cause in general - clearly puts stock in Western popular reactions.

Showing that decapitating babies and parading the naked corpses of recently killed women through the streets lower supports for their cause is absolutely worthwhile, IMO.

[crazy canuck]

I think Tamas is talking about mass demonstrations like the varies pro-Palestinian rallies being reported in various places in the West recently.

Yes, and that is what I am also addressing.  Why would anyone think the fact Israel is responding to the attack from HAMAS has been forgotten.  It is repeated on a daily basis.

Also, to unpack Tamas Equating Hamas with a government.  It is not.  It is terrorist organization and designated as such by most if not all Western governments.

[Threviel]

I had a social event this weekend with a lot of leftists from, amongst other places, Malmö. The capital of Jew-hatred and a very muslim-heavy city.

In that circle Israel was talked about, laughed at and joked about as Jewish nazi babykillers. Hamas is right to protest.

I did not say anything as that would have made me persona non grata. Today I read about children getting their eyes gouged out in front of their parent and the vice versa by Hamas.

I would guess that protests in the west against Israel is probably very very very heavy with Hamas-supporters. And useful idiots.

[crazy canuck]

If you can have a "Israel! Stop killing innocents!" march it seems you could also have a "Hamas! Stop killing innocents!" march.

Except that's clearly pointless. They're a terrorist group controlling an open air prison and the government is already in agreement with the position that they're very naughty boys.

With Israel on the other hand they are still a democracy, they're a normalish country with a functional economy, and in theory influencable by western pressure, and western governments do give them too much leeway.

So it's pointless to protest against violent evil organisations? Gotcha'

The Palestinian people are a "violent evil organization"? 

This is the problem with people having such a simplistic view of what is happening. But I suppose it is a good indicator of why the acts of Israel engaging in collective punishment of everyone in Gaza is being defended here.

To restate again, HAMAS is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not HAMAS.

[Tamas]

If you can have a "Israel! Stop killing innocents!" march it seems you could also have a "Hamas! Stop killing innocents!" march.

Except that's clearly pointless. They're a terrorist group controlling an open air prison and the government is already in agreement with the position that they're very naughty boys.

With Israel on the other hand they are still a democracy, they're a normalish country with a functional economy, and in theory influencable by western pressure, and western governments do give them too much leeway.

So it's pointless to protest against violent evil organisations? Gotcha'

The Palestinian people are a "violent evil organization"? 

This is the problem with people having such a simplistic view of what is happening. But I suppose it is a good indicator of why the acts of Israel engaging in collective punishment of everyone in Gaza is being defended here.

To restate again, HAMAS is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not HAMAS.

Woa are we all of a sudden equating Hamas with the Palestinian people? I am confused.

[Zoupa]

The original post clearly said "Hamas! Stop killing innocents!" march, cc. Seems you're the one equating palestinians with Hamas.