Israel-Hamas War 2023

[grumbler]

But the constant colonization had to stop.

Jews are the natives of an Israel. Arab Muslims are the colonizers.

Not many Jews are 2000 years old, so you cannot be talking about the original Jews of Judea and Samaria.  Most modern Jews, and Palestinians, are natives of greater Palestine. 

[Zoupa]

I see Israel has turned off the electricity, gas and water to Gaza. I was surprised there was any cross border of that stuff to begin with.

Once the military operation is over, they should seal that border completely. I don't see why Israel should provide anything to Gaza ever again.

[Hamilcar]

But the constant colonization had to stop.

Jews are the natives of an Israel. Arab Muslims are the colonizers.

Not many Jews are 2000 years old, so you cannot be talking about the original Jews of Judea and Samaria.  Most modern Jews, and Palestinians, are natives of greater Palestine. 

I reject all narratives of Jews in Israel as colonizers. It's offensive and stupid.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Between the population of Jews expelled from Arab countries (former Ottoman territories), and Holocaust refugees something like 75% of Israeli Jews are direct descendants of refugees. Most of the rest are descendants of various diaspora populations in places like Russia, America, the weird African Jews etc.

The only population of Jews that meet anything close to a definition of "colonists" are the 19th century Jews sponsored by wealthy Zionists to settle and try to establish a Jewish homeland. I think by 1930 they had less than 50,000.

Lefties who hate Israel try to paint the picture that most Israelis derive from this origin because it is the only origin with any meaningful similarities to colonialism.

[Oexmelin]

A country can be rooted in colonialism despite its population not being overwhelmingly direct descendants of settlers.

[Admiral Yi]

The Jews arrived first with the permission of the Ottomans and then the British, the two legal administrators of the territory.  If they were colonizers, aren't all immigrants colonizers?

[Oexmelin]

Much like American settlers arrived on Indigenous lands with the authorization of the federal government, yet it doesn't seem quite right to say it wasn't colonization.

[Duque de Bragança]

This thread is giving me Old Languish vibes.

Some people are also bringing their baggage along too.

Sorry, no saudade this time.

[Threviel]

I've been trying to find reliable numbers to see how big support Hamas has in Gaza. I've seen everything from 95% to almost nothing.

Most reliable numbers point to something like more than half of all Palestinians support Hamas over Fatah, with numbers from June 2023. Their support seems to go down in calmer times and up in times of conflict. Their support is larger in Gaza, something like 55-60% and amongst the younger population.

That's to compare with the Nazi's peaking at 37% of the vote, can't really find popularity numbers for later years. In parliamentary democracies it's very very rare to have a party with over 50% of the popular vote.

So, from a general view Hamas can be seen as having overwhelming support from the population of Gaza, it's about as common to not support them as it is to believe in UFO's in the US, about 40%.

The scenes of support from around the world for the terrorist acts and the horrible triumphal scenes from inside Gaza when the captives were driven around reinforces this view.

In short, their support inside Gaza seems less than I would have guessed, but still very very solid. This terrorist act seems to have popular support behind it, although it can be hard to know that.

Edit: According to wiki there's something like 2.4 million inhabitants in Gaza. The population being young means that I should guess that there's about 1 million adult supporters of Hamas. And in my mind they are fully deserving of the dildo of consequences, but something like 1-1.5 million non-adults or non-supporters of Hamas are stuck there also. It's an absolutely horrible nightmare.

[Admiral Yi]

Much like American settlers arrived on Indigenous lands with the authorization of the federal government, yet it doesn't seem quite right to say it wasn't colonization.

What is the essence of colonization? 

Would Indians moving to Uganda under British administration be colonizers?

[Josquius]

So, from a general view Hamas can be seen as having overwhelming support from the population of Gaza, it's about as common to not support them as it is to believe in UFO's in the US, about 40%.

Kim has 104% support in north Korea.

Much like American settlers arrived on Indigenous lands with the authorization of the federal government, yet it doesn't seem quite right to say it wasn't colonization.

That was absolutely colonization.

To my mind it's stuff like British India which is a weird secondary usage of the word not fitting with the first.

[Syt]

Just looking at the numbers ... Israel's population doubled from 1990 to 2022 (4.6M to 9.2M), so I totally get that there's pressure for more settlement - the country has about the same size as Slovenia (at 4x the population) or about the size of New Jersey (with about 10% more population).

Meanwhile the Gaza Strip is slightly larger than Grenada, with 2M people living there.

Crazy how such small plots of lands can create such turmoil.

[Josquius]

Sounds like Israel has a need for transit focussed development.
Who'd have thought it'd be a solution to the Israel - Palestine conflict too.

[Threviel]

So, from a general view Hamas can be seen as having overwhelming support from the population of Gaza, it's about as common to not support them as it is to believe in UFO's in the US, about 40%.

Kim has 104% support in north Korea.

I would love to see reliable data that refutes me if you have it?

[garbon]

Much like American settlers arrived on Indigenous lands with the authorization of the federal government, yet it doesn't seem quite right to say it wasn't colonization.

What is the essence of colonization? 

Would Indians moving to Uganda under British administration be colonizers?

This is first definition google gave me. So something about power. I don't know enough about the history in East Africa to comment.

the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area.