http://www.newser.com/story/158828/teens-sentence-10-years-of-church.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2
Quote(Newser) – What sounds better to you: Having to attend church for 10 years, or going to prison for manslaughter? If you said the former, you're not the ACLU. Tyler Alred, 17, was behind the wheel in a 2011 alcohol-related crash that killed his passenger, and Oklahoma Judge Mike Norman last month offered Alred the opportunity to avoid hard time and be sentenced instead to probation—so long as he goes to church regularly for a decade, reports the Tulsa World. The ACLU yesterday filed a complaint against Norman, condemning "the level of disregard" he "showed towards the US Constitution and the constitution of the state of Oklahoma."
The state's ACLU director explained that "we believe in a strong and independent judiciary. We didn't file this complaint lightly." A state council comprised of judges and lawyers will decide whether it wants to recommend that action be taken against Norman.
I'd totally take the church option.
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:34:08 PM
I'd totally take the church option.
No shit, huh. :lol:
I don't know if someone like Viking could. :D
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:34:08 PM
I'd totally take the church option.
Depends on the church. If it was that Mission Baptist church I had to go to a couple times with my friend's family as a kid, that'd be a tough decision :(
If I got to choose which spiritual group I spent my time with, sure. If I had to go to church every Sunday, then, no, I don't know that I could do that for 10 years.
Quote from: derspiess on December 05, 2012, 03:36:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:34:08 PM
I'd totally take the church option.
Depends on the church. If it was that Mission Baptist church I had to go to a couple times with my friend's family as a kid, that'd be a tough decision :(
Any particular horrible bits?
I've been to some boring churches (with lengthy services) but still I think I'd opt for it.
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:38:13 PM
If I got to choose which spiritual group I spent my time with, sure. If I had to go to church every Sunday, then, no, I don't know that I could do that for 10 years.
So you'd rather just do several full years in prison?
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:38:13 PM
If I got to choose which spiritual group I spent my time with, sure. If I had to go to church every Sunday, then, no, I don't know that I could do that for 10 years.
So you'd rather just do several full years in prison?
:hmm:
How many years?
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:40:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:38:13 PM
If I got to choose which spiritual group I spent my time with, sure. If I had to go to church every Sunday, then, no, I don't know that I could do that for 10 years.
So you'd rather just do several full years in prison?
:hmm:
How many years?
Quick search gave me:
QuoteBecause first offense Oklahoma DUI is a misdemeanor, a fatal DUI accident would fall under the first definition of manslaughter in the first degree. First-degree manslaughter in Oklahoma is a felony punishable by four years to life in prison.
Jail is more boring than church.
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:38:19 PM
Any particular horrible bits?
I've been to some boring churches (with lengthy services) but still I think I'd opt for it.
Rock music is the devil's music, you're going to hell if you do this, you're going to hell if you do that. They even started demonizing *country* music at one service I had to attend (mind you the entire congregation consisted of rednecks). Lots of yelling from the pulpit. Nobody ever seemed to enjoy being there. I always thought the extreme fire & brimstone churches were a Hollywood myth until I attended a service there. Sunday School was mostly just reading scripture, with the teacher not making much of an attempt to make it relevant to kids. Not sure if other Missionary Baptist churches are like that, since my sample is just 1.
Made me really appreciate my own Methodist church, which at its very worst was only boring.
Also the teen in question has to do the following:
The teenager must wear an ankle bracelet that monitors alcohol consumption; attend victim-impact panels and speak at events about the consequences of drinking and driving; graduate from high school and welding school; attend counseling; and undergo drug and alcohol assessments.
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
Quick search gave me:
QuoteBecause first offense Oklahoma DUI is a misdemeanor, a fatal DUI accident would fall under the first definition of manslaughter in the first degree. First-degree manslaughter in Oklahoma is a felony punishable by four years to life in prison.
If I could get away with serving two years or less, I'd have to seriously have to think about it. I'd probably take the church thing because I'm a big chicken, but I'd have to really think about it. Especially if it were a holy-roller Baptist-type church. :yuk:
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
I think I'd just bring something to do at church.
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:50:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
Quick search gave me:
QuoteBecause first offense Oklahoma DUI is a misdemeanor, a fatal DUI accident would fall under the first definition of manslaughter in the first degree. First-degree manslaughter in Oklahoma is a felony punishable by four years to life in prison.
If I could get away with serving two years or less, I'd have to seriously have to think about it. I'd probably take the church thing because I'm a big chicken, but I'd have to really think about it. Especially if it were a holy-roller Baptist-type church. :yuk:
:rolleyes: No you wouldn't. You'd take the church "sentence" in a heartbeat.
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:53:12 PM
I think I'd just bring something to do at church.
My ass would be there in the choir gown.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speakinggump.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2FForrest-Goes-To-Church.jpg&hash=607c93fff7e31ddb3b004b9aab8b1f310ff2901c)
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:53:12 PM
I think I'd just bring something to do at church.
No shit. Kindle, ahoy.
Sure. I'd go to the reformed church of satan.
Or this: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Church-of-sex-drugs-and-rock-n-roll/237507692932399
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:53:31 PM
:rolleyes: No you wouldn't. You'd take the church "sentence" in a heartbeat.
I don't know. What better way to lock myself in with a typewriter to get my novel written?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 05, 2012, 03:53:48 PM
My ass would be there in the choir gown.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speakinggump.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2FForrest-Goes-To-Church.jpg&hash=607c93fff7e31ddb3b004b9aab8b1f310ff2901c)
You'd be the swarthier one.
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 04:06:32 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:53:31 PM
:rolleyes: No you wouldn't. You'd take the church "sentence" in a heartbeat.
I don't know. What better way to lock myself in with a typewriter to get my novel written?
Because you'd probably have access to a weapon like a typewriter.
Crazy probationary sentences are the new normal. Not just for serious stuff either. Like, a year of attending AA 3 times a week for disturbing the peace, when the statute only carries 30 days max.
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
This.
Can you imagine Viking forced to attend church for 10 years? It has all the making of a fish out of water comedy, in which by the end both sides learn just a *little* more love and tolerance for one another.
Well, either that or a shock film about a small town lynching.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 05, 2012, 04:22:59 PM
Crazy probationary sentences are the new normal. Not just for serious stuff either. Like, a year of attending AA 3 times a week for disturbing the peace, when the statute only carries 30 days max.
I always like it when I can give an accused a choice. "Look, you can do your 30 days, or you can do a year and a half of probation with a whole string of conditions". :)
I'm glad to see anyone try anything other than the proven ineffective and inefficient warehousing of people.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 05, 2012, 06:27:07 PM
Can you imagine Viking forced to attend church for 10 years? It has all the making of a fish out of water comedy, in which by the end both sides learn just a *little* more love and tolerance for one another.
Well, either that or a shock film about a small town lynching.
Viking's pretty crazy, but I don't think even he could lynch a whole small town by himself.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 05, 2012, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on December 05, 2012, 06:27:07 PM
Can you imagine Viking forced to attend church for 10 years? It has all the making of a fish out of water comedy, in which by the end both sides learn just a *little* more love and tolerance for one another.
Well, either that or a shock film about a small town lynching.
Viking's pretty crazy, but I don't think even he could lynch a whole small town by himself.
:D
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
Well, didn't we decide that women couldn't do math? :hmm:
Must graduate welding school?
Quote from: Ideologue on December 05, 2012, 09:35:26 PM
Must graduate welding school?
Key to being a good citizen. :D
Quote from: Kleves on December 05, 2012, 08:15:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
Well, didn't we decide that women couldn't do math? :hmm:
Their bodies tell them not to.
Definitely would rather give up my Sunday mornings than have to go to prison for a few years.
Though not being able to go on holiday would suck :(
Quote from: Tyr on December 06, 2012, 02:25:03 AM
Definitely would rather give up my Sunday mornings than have to go to prison for a few years.
Though not being able to go on holiday would suck :(
I'm guessing you don't know how long 30 days is.
does it say the guy has to pay attention in the church?
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:40:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:38:13 PM
If I got to choose which spiritual group I spent my time with, sure. If I had to go to church every Sunday, then, no, I don't know that I could do that for 10 years.
So you'd rather just do several full years in prison?
:hmm:
How many years?
Quick search gave me:
QuoteBecause first offense Oklahoma DUI is a misdemeanor, a fatal DUI accident would fall under the first definition of manslaughter in the first degree. First-degree manslaughter in Oklahoma is a felony punishable by four years to life in prison.
It's 4 years, with the option of parole after 1/3 or 2/3? 2-3 years in jail VS Church for 10. Give me the jail, please.
Quote from: viper37 on December 06, 2012, 01:38:26 PM
It's 4 years, with the option of parole after 1/3 or 2/3? 2-3 years in jail VS Church for 10. Give me the jail, please.
You realize you only have to go to church for 1 hour once a week right?
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
I'm guessing there's more to it than this. Can you leave the country while on probation? Or even the state?
The church isn't much of an issue. 10 years is.
Quote from: Maximus on December 06, 2012, 01:53:00 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
I'm guessing there's more to it than this. Can you leave the country while on probation? Or even the state?
The church isn't much of an issue. 10 years is.
I don't think actually that there are those requirements on it but who knows. In this case, I do know that the attorney of the kid said that his client already attends church every sunday so this won't be much of an imposition.
Quote from: Maximus on December 06, 2012, 01:53:00 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
I'm guessing there's more to it than this. Can you leave the country while on probation? Or even the state?
The church isn't much of an issue. 10 years is.
I suspect that there's some lee-way there. Yeah, being tied to the same spot for 10 years would suck, but I don't think people on probation are prohibited from leaving the area they live in for short periods of time so long as they notify their probation officer of the dates and times they'll be gone.
Quote from: Habbaku on December 06, 2012, 03:38:45 PM
Quote from: Maximus on December 06, 2012, 01:53:00 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 05, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
~1040 hours of church spaced out over 10 years or ~35,000 hours (assuming 4 year sentence) in prison.
This is a decision?
I'm guessing there's more to it than this. Can you leave the country while on probation? Or even the state?
The church isn't much of an issue. 10 years is.
I suspect that there's some lee-way there. Yeah, being tied to the same spot for 10 years would suck, but I don't think people on probation are prohibited from leaving the area they live in for short periods of time so long as they notify their probation officer of the dates and times they'll be gone.
It would depend on the exact terms of his probation.
Quote from: Valmy on December 06, 2012, 01:43:49 PM
You realize you only have to go to church for 1 hour once a week right?
I had to go 4-5hr a year while younger, and that was too much.
Unfortunately, I don't think Canada has something against "cruel and unusual punishment". Besides, in my experience, American mass tend to be more than just 1hr. No, I don't think I could survive.
Quote from: viper37 on December 06, 2012, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 06, 2012, 01:43:49 PM
You realize you only have to go to church for 1 hour once a week right?
I had to go 4-5hr a year while younger, and that was too much.
Unfortunately, I don't think Canada has something against "cruel and unusual punishment". Besides, in my experience, American mass tend to be more than just 1hr. No, I don't think I could survive.
Well again, you're getting a choice. If church is that painful then just do the time.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 06, 2012, 08:24:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 06, 2012, 02:25:03 AM
Definitely would rather give up my Sunday mornings than have to go to prison for a few years.
Though not being able to go on holiday would suck :(
I'm guessing you don't know how long 30 days is.
:huh:
Quote from: dps on December 06, 2012, 04:09:56 PMIt would depend on the exact terms of his probation.
Yeah, I would like to see it. I'm pretty sure there are some loopholes there as I don't think the judge would go so far as to specify this must be a Christian church or of what denomination or where located, as that would be indeed against the first amendment/freedom of religion. So he could ask his friend to start a church of sex drugs and rockandroll and go there for a weekly observance.
Quote from: Martinus on December 07, 2012, 01:59:48 AM
Yeah, I would like to see it. I'm pretty sure there are some loopholes there as I don't think the judge would go so far as to specify this must be a Christian church or of what denomination or where located, as that would be indeed against the first amendment/freedom of religion. So he could ask his friend to start a church of sex drugs and rockandroll and go there for a weekly observance.
Well it seems he already belonged to a church and went every week anyway so...I do not get what the judge was trying to accomplish here.
If it's a Catholic church then it's cruel and unusual.
Quote from: Valmy on December 07, 2012, 02:16:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 07, 2012, 01:59:48 AM
Yeah, I would like to see it. I'm pretty sure there are some loopholes there as I don't think the judge would go so far as to specify this must be a Christian church or of what denomination or where located, as that would be indeed against the first amendment/freedom of religion. So he could ask his friend to start a church of sex drugs and rockandroll and go there for a weekly observance.
Well it seems he already belonged to a church and went every week anyway so...I do not get what the judge was trying to accomplish here.
That kind of makes it a non-story, doesn't it? I mean, it's very different from someone who never goes to church/doesn't believe being sentenced to religious services every Sunday for 10 years than, "Hey, keep doing what you're doing!" for 10 years.
Maybe. Though recall he's only 17. Who knows if he'd actually still be an avid churchgoer at 27 without this order.
Really if you take into account the other things they said he must do (like graduate high school) it is really just more about keeping him on the judge's idea of the straight and narrow.
Judges should be allowed to refer late teen offenders like him to the nearest armed forces recruiting office, like they used to once upon a time.
Dean Wormer would agree.
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2012, 04:43:17 PM
Well again, you're getting a choice. If church is that painful then just do the time.
It's what said the first time... :)
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime :P
Quote from: Martinus on December 07, 2012, 01:59:48 AM
Quote from: dps on December 06, 2012, 04:09:56 PMIt would depend on the exact terms of his probation.
Yeah, I would like to see it. I'm pretty sure there are some loopholes there as I don't think the judge would go so far as to specify this must be a Christian church or of what denomination or where located, as that would be indeed against the first amendment/freedom of religion.
Oh no, specified or not this is a clear 1st amendment violation.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 07, 2012, 11:45:27 AM
Judges should be allowed to refer late teen offenders like him to the nearest armed forces recruiting office, like they used to once upon a time.
Dean Wormer would agree.
The services don't really want those guys anymore, though.
That might be less true than it was 10 years ago.
Quote from: viper37 on December 06, 2012, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 06, 2012, 01:43:49 PM
You realize you only have to go to church for 1 hour once a week right?
I had to go 4-5hr a year while younger, and that was too much.
Unfortunately, I don't think Canada has something against "cruel and unusual punishment". Besides, in my experience, American mass tend to be more than just 1hr. No, I don't think I could survive.
Viper, you know I love you, and I don't mind your Quebecois anti-theist stuff, hell, I respect it, but I think you're being silly. There is nothing worse on this planet than imprisonment (except I suppose imprisonment
and torture).
Too bad we can't ask Paul Atreides which one he'd pick. :hmm: