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Another movie poll! Inspired by watching Napoleon, which I don't think makes the list.

I made the cutoff at WWI because I feel you could make an entire poll of its own with all the XXth century wars.

I tried to be extensive and at least include the most notable/famous ones, but I'm sure you can come up with many more examples. I.e. I don't have many Asian movies and I know Chinese love their over the top battle scenes (although myself I find them too fantastical).

I wavered about adding Helm's Deep because it's a fantasy movie but well... it's a great scene and it plays like a medieval fortress assault, there's no dragons or fireballs or shit, probably more realistic than 300.

Anyway, my votes go to Ran, War & Peace and Spartacus - three very different ways to present warfare on a movie screen, and all of them some of the best examples of it.

Honorary mention to Alexander Nevsky for essentially writing the book on how to shoot an epic battle.

Seen War & Peace recently on the silver screen (7h30 or so) so the choice was easy.  :P

Voted for Helm's Deep, Marcommanic Wars and Gettysburg.

Is Aqaba in Lawrence of Arabia not part of WWI?

Have only seen a few of these voted for Gladiator.

Borodino, Rorke's Drift, and that battle from Cromwell.

Quote from: Zanza on December 05, 2023, 11:48:44 PMIs Aqaba in Lawrence of Arabia not part of WWI?

Have only seen a few of these voted for Gladiator.

Ops, yeah totally don't know what I was thinking there  :lol:

Gotta say I don't think it's a great *war* scene. It's just a brief charge against a lightly defended position. Dramatically it works incredibly well after the ordeal crossing the Nefud, mind.

Oooo! I'll have to think on this. Alas, the emotional impact and experience of Helm's Deep, to me, is made less by the "comedy" that Jackson added. For Lord of the Rings, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is peak pitched battle. As much as I love all of the Gondorian scenes (Faramir's charge spliced with Denethor eating and Pippen singing!), the Théoden speech, the music, the visuals, and ensuing charge of the Rohirrim is just...  :wub:  :cry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POdknqszMDY&ab_channel=G%C3%B6kselK%C3%B6ksal

Pelennor Fields has way too much CGI imho. Theoden's speech is great, but all those compact masses of CGI cavalrymen completely take me out of it, the charge feels so plasticky and fake. There are several CGI shots of the orc army on Helm's Deep, but nighttime helps and most of the actual fighting is real, except for Eomer's charge at dawn (my least favorite scene besides the comedy bits you mention).

CGI armies are the worst. One of the reasons I find most Marvel movies' big action scenes nearly unwatchable.

Sieges are so perfect for movies so I went with Mohicans and Helms Deep.

Write in vote for the battle of the bastards. I liked the claustrophobic feeling of the scene.

Quote from: HVC on December 06, 2023, 10:01:13 AMWrite in vote for the battle of the bastards. I liked the claustrophobic feeling of the scene.

Is that stretching pre-WW1 even further than LOTR? Maybe even past breaking point?

Quote from: The Brain on December 06, 2023, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: HVC on December 06, 2023, 10:01:13 AMWrite in vote for the battle of the bastards. I liked the claustrophobic feeling of the scene.

Is that stretching pre-WW1 even further than LOTR? Maybe even past breaking point?

I mean 300 isn't exactly realistic either :P . And I picked a battle without dragons :D

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 06, 2023, 09:52:57 AMSieges are so perfect for movies so I went with Mohicans and Helms Deep.

Same - and Zulu/Rorke's Drift.

I believe, and I could be totally wrong, that Waterloo is considered very good on that sort of thing. Not least because (for reasons that are beyond me) it was a co-production with the Soviet film industry. So they basically re-created Waterloo in Russia and had thousands of off duty Red Army soldiers as extras etc. It would definitely get around people's CGI-aversion :lol:

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 06, 2023, 10:13:02 AMI believe, and I could be totally wrong, that Waterloo is considered very good on that sort of thing. Not least because (for reasons that are beyond me) it was a co-production with the Soviet film industry.

It's not strange - De Laurentiis had been trying to get the film off the ground for a while. Sergei Bondarchuk had just won the foreign film Oscar for War & Peace, which did exactly the same thing to recreate Borodino, and this way he could rope in the Soviets.

It's fascinating how different both battles are in both films, by the way, despite being shot by the same director using the Soviet army. Both are great, but Waterloo feels much more like a battle in a 1970s Western film - all clean with plenty of aerial shots and easy to follow and a definite narrative to it - I love how chaotic and messy Borodino is. It's half an hour of cannon fire, infantry charges and death.

I suppose by strange I mean I can't really see what the Soviets were hoping to get out of it :lol:

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 06, 2023, 11:01:33 AMI suppose by strange I mean I can't really see what the Soviets were hoping to get out of it :lol:

Prestige, I suppose? Also for some reason they went on a spree around that time of using the army to stage huge war films. There's the "Liberation" film series which chronicles the Soviet army drive from Kursk to Berlin that features hundreds of tanks and thousands of soldiers. The films are pretty mediocre themselves, mind.

My enjoyment of the siege in Mohicans was diminished by the fact that the didn't recreate a Vauban style fort with a sloped glacis and bastions, which is what it was. Is?  I'm guessing it's still standing.

Watching that scene I kept thinking those cannons should have blown that fort into toothpicks.

Fauxban is the worst.

While Theoden's speech and the pre-contact charge across the fields of Pelennor fields are both great and all, the Battle of Pelennor Field and the Battle of Helms' Deep scenees are both trash as far as I'm concerned. There's a complete lack of unit cohesion, it has the typical Hollywood everyone-fighting-one-on-one swirling melee, and it has combattants flung into the air willy-nilly. It's more like one of those trashy pay to win mobile zombie fighting games in terms of aesthetics than anything else.

So while I haven't watched enough of the others to say which is best, it's definitely not one of the LotR battles.

Does the size/scale of the battle matter?  If not, and allowing light fantasy...then I gotta go with the Battle of the Mounds from Conan...after all, all that matters is two stood against many.  That's what's important.  :P

Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 06, 2023, 04:05:26 PMMy enjoyment of the siege in Mohicans was diminished by the fact that the didn't recreate a Vauban style fort with a sloped glacis and bastions, which is what it was. Is?  I'm guessing it's still standing.

Watching that scene I kept thinking those cannons should have blown that fort into toothpicks.

The fort you see was specially constructed and historically accurate in style/appearance. Earth and wood forts were actually pretty resistant to the type of siege artillery that was easily transported and used in North America during the era.

https://www.mohicanpress.com/mo06029.html

Quote from: Sophie Scholl on December 06, 2023, 10:17:38 PMThe fort you see was specially constructed and historically accurate in style/appearance. Earth and wood forts were actually pretty resistant to the type of siege artillery that was easily transported and used in North America during the era.

https://www.mohicanpress.com/mo06029.html

If that's the set, that's the set.  Strange I don't recall any bastions or glacis.

Quote from: celedhring on December 06, 2023, 01:56:30 AM

Quote from: Zanza on December 05, 2023, 11:48:44 PMIs Aqaba in Lawrence of Arabia not part of WWI?

Have only seen a few of these voted for Gladiator.

Ops, yeah totally don't know what I was thinking there  :lol:

Gotta say I don't think it's a great *war* scene. It's just a brief charge against a lightly defended position. Dramatically it works incredibly well after the ordeal crossing the Nefud, mind.

It is WWI, but it's not the typical western front trenches we think of when we hear the term.

Quote from: Jacob on December 06, 2023, 05:14:37 PMWhile Theoden's speech and the pre-contact charge across the fields of Pelennor fields are both great and all, the Battle of Pelennor Field and the Battle of Helms' Deep scenees are both trash as far as I'm concerned. There's a complete lack of unit cohesion, it has the typical Hollywood everyone-fighting-one-on-one swirling melee, and it has combattants flung into the air willy-nilly. It's more like one of those trashy pay to win mobile zombie fighting games in terms of aesthetics than anything else.

So while I haven't watched enough of the others to say which is best, it's definitely not one of the LotR battles.

Are there movies with pre-gunpowder armies fighting that do have good unit cohesion?

Quote from: Tonitrus on December 06, 2023, 09:12:35 PMDoes the size/scale of the battle matter?  If not, and allowing light fantasy...then I gotta go with the Battle of the Mounds from Conan...after all, all that matters is two stood against many.  That's what's important.  :P

That movie established my love for two-handed hammers as weapon of choice in fantasy games.

(https://the-overlord.net/uploads/monthly_2017_09/thorg.jpg.99de59b4498472306adf5e257dd2dfd0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NpvD6.jpeg)

 :blush:

Ah 80s fantasy.
So. Very. Shit.
Yet it was all we had.
Kids these days are spoiled for (also shit) choice.


To the poll....I know I've seen many of these films but can't remember the battles too well from most...Zulu is the one that definitely sticks out in my mind. I'd go with that. Its a proper battle, with the quiet points en al.

I just remembered the Battle of Balaclava as portrayed in "Charge of the Light Brigade" and it definitely should have made the shortlist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h4e8llcfQQ&t=359s&ab_channel=johnbenson

I feel like the British Empire peaked around 1900 in real life, and then around 1970 in movies.

I chose the charge in GLORY as that manages to show the worthlessness of it all, how a unit goes from a cohesive group to component parts, and the final outcome of futility.

I saw The King on Netflix recently and I feel like it shows the chaos and misery of melee battle pretty well.

It's been a long time since I've seen The Four Feathers, but I remember really liking the Battle of Omdurman from the film.  Like everything else in the film it is beautifully shot in glorious extra-color.  (I mean the 1939 version, of course, I've read the British are defeated in the 2002 version  :lol: .)

Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 06, 2023, 11:43:59 PMAre there movies with pre-gunpowder armies fighting that do have good unit cohesion?

Gaugamela is pretty good, I think.

It's also shot following the historical accounts.

Quote from: Savonarola on December 07, 2023, 03:49:05 PMIt's been a long time since I've seen The Four Feathers, but I remember really liking the Battle of Omdurman from the film.  Like everything else in the film it is beautifully shot in glorious extra-color.  (I mean the 1939 version, of course, I've read the British are defeated in the 2002 version  :lol: .)

There is such a 2002 version?!  :o 

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 08, 2023, 06:32:38 AMThere is such a 2002 version?!  :o 

Heath Ledger is the lead:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0240510/

No love for Excalibur?

Quote from: Iormlund on December 07, 2023, 03:51:42 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 06, 2023, 11:43:59 PMAre there movies with pre-gunpowder armies fighting that do have good unit cohesion?

Gaugamela is pretty good, I think.

It's also shot following the historical accounts.

Yeah, the battle is very historically rendered (at least according to traditional accounts which are obviously exaggerated), but I don't think it's particularly well directed - very confusing and disjointed, and not in a "war is chaos" intentional way. Oliver Stone has made some really great scenes over his career, but none of them are in Alexander.

I do appreciate the restrained use of CGI, though. And we have so few epic movies set in the pre-Roman era (and one of them is 300).

Thinking about it there's only one obvious choice. One of the best movies ever: Master and commander

Every other movie must necessarily come second.

(https://m0vie.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/masterandcommander.jpg?w=584)

Quote from: Threviel on December 09, 2023, 01:32:52 PMThinking about it there's only one obvious choice. One of the best movies ever: Master and commander

Every other movie must necessarily come second.

(https://m0vie.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/masterandcommander.jpg?w=584)

Actually, yes.

I thought about including the taking of the Acheron, indeed. But dediced to exclude naval battles. That will be another poll  :P

That's actually the greatest scene of all time (GOAT)

Master and Commander is totally one of my top 10 movies that I would re-watch again and again.

I think I've mentioned that while Caliga would do Roman re-enactment, for several years I would attend these Jane Austen balls dressed as a Royal Navy captain?

I watched Master and Commander on the cannon deck of the Götheborg sailing on the North Sea. I don't think that movie experience will ever be surpassed.

Especially as we had a lot of French aboard.

I've enjoyed some of the more recent takes about the Master and Commander movie, examining it as a work of positive (as opposed to toxic) masculinity.  Probably contributes to how beloved the movie has become among basically everyone on the planet.

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 10, 2023, 10:37:01 AMI've enjoyed some of the more recent takes about the Master and Commander movie, examining it as a work of positive (as opposed to toxic) masculinity.  Probably contributes to how beloved the movie has become among basically everyone on the planet.

I don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

I've seen that movie used in leadership classes, as an example of leading without being an asshole. It's not that weird a take.

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 11:25:06 AMI don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

That second masculinity is every super hero movie.

Quote from: Jacob on December 10, 2023, 11:42:09 AM

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 11:25:06 AMI don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Makes sense now, thanks. :thumbsup:

Also I think Maturin and Aubrey as mates (despite big differences) plays into that.

Quote from: Jacob on December 10, 2023, 11:42:09 AM

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 11:25:06 AMI don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Those seem like positive/toxic qualities irrespective of masculinity or femininity...I don't see why it would need that qualifier. :hmm:

Quote from: Tonitrus on December 10, 2023, 03:54:09 PM

Quote from: Jacob on December 10, 2023, 11:42:09 AM

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 11:25:06 AMI don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Those seem like positive/toxic qualities irrespective of masculinity or femininity...I don't see why it would need that qualifier. :hmm:

Women can be toxic leaders too, but the negative traits Jacob lists are most typical to men.  Or rather, of what some people see as a "strong man".

In the end, M&C is a guy movie, and men are the ones more likely to see Aubrey as a role model.

Quote from: Tonitrus on December 10, 2023, 03:54:09 PMThose seem like positive/toxic qualities irrespective of masculinity or femininity...I don't see why it would need that qualifier. :hmm:

For sure, but people seem to care about "what it means to be a man", "male role models", and things like that.

As long as people care enough about gender identity to define and argue about it, you're going to get those kinds of qualifiers.

Quote from: celedhring on December 10, 2023, 04:30:17 PMWomen can be toxic leaders too, but the negative traits Jacob lists are most typical to men.  Or rather, of what some people see as a "strong man".

In the end, M&C is a guy movie, and men are the ones more likely to see Aubrey as a role model.

Even if they are just as typical in women, those traits in particular may not be held up as an ideal to emulate for those who aspire to be a "real woman".

It's not about whether men (or women) have those traits, but about whether men (or women) aspire to those traits because they are shown as an important part of being sufficiently manly (or womanly).

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 10, 2023, 02:12:05 PMAlso I think Maturin and Aubrey as mates (despite big differences) plays into that.

I read a review of one of the books by a female reviewer in which she said there are few examples in literature of two men being friends, but this is one of them.

Quote from: Jacob on December 10, 2023, 11:42:09 AM

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 11:25:06 AMI don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

That is all a fair take.

But having read all 20(!) Master and Commander books a couple of times it's fun to compare the movie version against the books version.

First of all while women are for obvious reasons almost non-present in the movie they are huge in the books.  Jack Aubrey is shown as being something of a man-child - he loves women, including numerous affairs, but he meets and loves his wife Sophie.  Stephen Maturin winds up in a fairly toxic relationship with Sophie's cousin Diana that ends in a autistic child and Diana's death.

But yes - Aubrey is a heroic figure who is willing to do what must be done, as is Maturin (as a spy - something not even touched in the movie) while being noble and admirable (although Maturin struggles with drug addiction - I think he's clearly the author's stand-in).

Quote from: Threviel on December 10, 2023, 11:45:41 AMThat second masculinity is every super hero movie.

Superman? Captain America?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 10, 2023, 06:21:55 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 10, 2023, 02:12:05 PMAlso I think Maturin and Aubrey as mates (despite big differences) plays into that.

I read a review of one of the books by a female reviewer in which she said there are few examples in literature of two men being friends, but this is one of them.

Yes - and I don't think having friends is necessarily something that's modelled as part of masculinity. Which is a shame.

You know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

Quote from: celedhring on December 11, 2023, 07:47:47 AMYou know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

I'm getting a "best aerial battle in film" poll ready.  :P

Quote from: Tonitrus on December 11, 2023, 08:42:13 PM

Quote from: celedhring on December 11, 2023, 07:47:47 AMYou know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

I'm getting a "best aerial battle in film" poll ready.  :P

I mean, Battle of Britain gets points for mostly using (near-)original craft of the era (thanks, Franco, for holding on to the old German ones :P ), except the Stukas which were models. That or the death star trench run fjord attack in 633 Squadron (though I mostly remember it for lending its theme to the C64 version of the game 1942).

Quote from: Tonitrus on December 11, 2023, 08:42:13 PM

Quote from: celedhring on December 11, 2023, 07:47:47 AMYou know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

I'm getting a "best aerial battle in film" poll ready.  :P

Go ahead! Complete the trilogy  :P

Off the top of my head.


WWI:
- Wings - silent film, some truly amazing shots that put you into the action and a feeling of authenticity (the director was a pilot in WWI) since there are very few trick shots. It's nearly all actual planes flying.

WII:
The best is indeed probably Battle of Britain, but I'll add "Memphis Belle", that has some great air battles. Also, Tora Tora Tora scores high.
Honorary mention for 12 O'Clock High, which uses authentic gun camera footage for its aerial battle scenes, hardly gonna get more accurate than that :D

Korean War:

- Bridges of Toko-Ri: No discussion here. The attack run on the bridge is fantastic.

'Nam: drawing a blank. The Ride of the Valkyrie's in Apocalypse Now? Stretching it a bit, though.


Post 'Nam:

- Top Gun Maverick: obvious pick, but the air scenes are fantastic. The first movie is also very good on that regard.
- Honorary mention to "Chevaliers de Ciel", a French film with Mirages trying to stop terorrists during Bastille Day.

Sci-fi:

- Death Star trench run: Star Wars has had made much more spectacular space battles, but this one is still the one to beat for its tight storytelling and tension.
- I also feel I should name at least one from The Expanse, given how they move past the "WWII in Space" Star Wars model that has dominated space operas ever since and still made incredibly intense scenes, but I'd need to think about one in particular.
- Mutara Nebula: the battle at the Mutara Nebula feels more as an age of sail naval battle in space, and it's fantastic.

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 01:22:44 PM

Quote from: Jacob on December 10, 2023, 11:42:09 AM

Quote from: Tamas on December 10, 2023, 11:25:06 AMI don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Makes sense now, thanks. :thumbsup:

And it is not just in the movie.  It is a theme that runs throughout the books.  The two types of captain are often compared.

Quote from: celedhring on December 12, 2023, 03:23:36 AMSci-fi:

I think "space battles" would need its own poll.   

After all "aeriel" implies staying in the atmosphere.  :P

Quote from: celedhring on December 12, 2023, 03:23:36 AMSci-fi:

- Death Star trench run: Star Wars has had made much more spectacular space battles, but this one is still the one to beat for its tight storytelling and tension.

The dual land/space battles raging concurrently in Rogue One are also absolutely amazing. Though a lot less serious, the Battle(s) of Endor are favorites, too, due to my childhood (and current!) love of Ewoks and the splicing of the ground, space, and duel combat going on. The score is fantastic, too. I love Hoth due to the vibe of the planet and the desperation of the rearguard action. None of the battles in the prequels or sequels stuck out to me in a good way. We'll if that changes with my planned rewatching.

Yeah, the Battle of Endor is a wonderful parallel action. They have reused the same concept many times in the prequels and sequels - mixing land and space action as the movie's climax - but the only time it clicked again was in Rogue One imho.

Hoth is one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars, although it has a big nostalgia component. Long before I watched the actual movies, there was this mall where my parents would go often, and they had this TV with that played the Hoth sequence in a loop. One of those indelible childhood memories.