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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Jacob on April 13, 2022, 12:42:43 PM

Title: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 13, 2022, 12:42:43 PM
It's looking more and more likely that Finland and Sweden will join NATO.

At a high level it's great because it's a big fuck you to Putin, an own goal from the invasion of Ukraine.

Looking at it through a Danish lense, it's great to have more of our Nordic siblings in NATO. It's also argued that this puts us in a much stronger position to defend the Baltic states and control the Baltic Sea if necessary - Gotland being especially important strategically. So locally, in the Nordic countries this is obviously a big deal. I expect the Baltic countries and Poland to be pretty enthusiastic about it as well.

In terms of the Russian response, I think the exectations are that they'll complain, move some units around to look threatening, and step up things like cyber attacks and other deniable chicanery - but otherwise settle down.

What do you folks think?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Malthus on April 13, 2022, 12:50:18 PM
They certainly aren't in a position to do anything about it at the moment. Even assuming they ever were. They have their hands full, and then some, with Ukraine.

Given recent events, any nation that borders Russia would have to be crazy not to want to join NATO. Otherwise, as soon as Russia feels strong enough (and assuming it doesn't ruin itself with its current adventure), it is guaranteed that Russia will find some excuse (in many cases a compliant minority of Russian ethnicity who can be persuaded to form a separatist group) to bite off a chunk ... 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on April 13, 2022, 12:53:24 PM
I agree that it is very unlikely that Russia would do significantly more than whine.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 01:09:37 PM
So nothing more (or less) than 200 years of history kept Sweden from joining NATO, but for Finland it was long a fear of Russia.

Obviously now with the bulk of Russia's army tied up in Ukraine Russia can't even do much in the way of threatening military maneuvers right now.  And I suspect his cyber capabilities are tied up right now as well.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on April 13, 2022, 02:51:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 01:09:37 PMAnd I suspect his cyber capabilities are tied up right now as well.
Syt is no longer posting in the Facebook thread...  that gives you a pretty good idea of how well Russia hands have been tied in this department lately ;)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 02:55:18 PM
Heh - I didn't get where you were coming from at first viper.  :)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on April 13, 2022, 03:26:16 PM
I think it's now or never for any country even remotely contemplating NATO membership.  If Russia doesn't get fatally injured, they're going to come for anyone in their "sphere" who's not entangled in any alliance.  I don't see how they have anything to lose.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 13, 2022, 03:28:41 PM
Maybe we should get Moldova in too while we're at it. Are there any mercenary groups laying about that kick the Russians out of Transnistria? It's only a 1000 or so (more local militia though but if done quickly...).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 03:44:59 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 13, 2022, 03:28:41 PMMaybe we should get Moldova in too while we're at it. Are there any mercenary groups laying about that kick the Russians out of Transnistria? It's only a 1000 or so (more local militia though but if done quickly...).

I mean I really do not follow Moldovan politics, but I didn't think their government was very western-facing.

Google suggests they are constitutionally neutral, and NATO has supported Moldova's independence and neutrality.  Moldova had a Communist, Russian-aligned government as recently as the 2000s.  I don't believe Moldova has had anywhere near the same level of NATO training for it's troops that Ukraine has had.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 13, 2022, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 03:44:59 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 13, 2022, 03:28:41 PMMaybe we should get Moldova in too while we're at it. Are there any mercenary groups laying about that kick the Russians out of Transnistria? It's only a 1000 or so (more local militia though but if done quickly...).

I mean I really do not follow Moldovan politics, but I didn't think their government was very western-facing.

Google suggests they are constitutionally neutral, and NATO has supported Moldova's independence and neutrality.  Moldova had a Communist, Russian-aligned government as recently as the 2000s.  I don't believe Moldova has had anywhere near the same level of NATO training for it's troops that Ukraine has had.

Moldova's current government is more west-leaning iirc. And even if it wasn't, they'd be able to read maps and understand Putin's goals, and what that means for their independence.
But yeah, their army is small, and in bad shape.

Obviously none of this is going to happen, but then most thought a war wasn't going to happen either
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on April 13, 2022, 04:40:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 02:55:18 PMHeh - I didn't get where you were coming from at first viper.  :)
these posts, from his sisters, often with grammar or spelling mistakes (they didn't write it themselves, they were republished) always look to me as something produced by some of Russia's troll farms. :)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on April 13, 2022, 04:41:10 PM
Very good news I think. What a result for Putin's policy :bleeding:

On a parochial side I think the UK government will be thrilled.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 04:53:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 13, 2022, 04:41:10 PMVery good news I think. What a result for Putin's policy :bleeding:

Putin has just got to be getting madder and madder.

At what point does he switch from just doubling down to trying to withdraw?  Obviously he'll want to go through with the coming Donbass offensive, but does he keep going if that doesn't succeed?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on April 13, 2022, 04:57:44 PM
I don't know if there's anything to it - but I keep thinking that May 9/Victory Day must be a key date for Putin right now.

Although I wonder if Russia might stay relatively quiet for the next few weeks to keep re-grouping but also, possibly, boost Le Pen's chances?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2022, 04:59:13 PM
Remember Princess Diana's old Land Mine Ban?  Finland was one of the non-signatories, claiming they needed mines to deter Russian attack.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 13, 2022, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 13, 2022, 04:57:44 PMI don't know if there's anything to it - but I keep thinking that May 9/Victory Day must be a key date for Putin right now.

Although I wonder if Russia might stay relatively quiet for the next few weeks to keep re-grouping but also, possibly, boost Le Pen's chances?

I read somewhere speculation (how informed I can't say) is Putin wants a WWII-style victory parade in Mariupol on May 9.

Not so sure how much Putin is going to change strategy to help Le Pen, however.  Obviously he'd prefer her to Macron, but his overwhelming objective right now is some kind of victory in Ukraine.

But what do I know.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on April 13, 2022, 06:41:23 PM
How will there entry into the alliance change the internal dynamics of the alliance, if at all?  Does it go back to its roots as a European defence pact and no longer go off on other adventures.  Would it have done so regardless given the Russian menace we now face.

I guess I am wondering if it is all the upside it seems to be or what the possible downside might be.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2022, 12:24:01 AM
If the war keeps up like this, we might start seeing countries leaving NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 14, 2022, 12:40:25 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 14, 2022, 12:24:01 AMIf the war keeps up like this, we might start seeing countries leaving NATO.

But only if they're not bordering the russians probably, cause you know...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on April 14, 2022, 02:48:37 AM
I'm just hoping in response to the Russian threats a Finnish or Swedish politician pipes up "Dude. That's why we want to join NATO."
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 03:45:42 AM
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2022, 02:48:37 AMI'm just hoping in response to the Russian threats a Finnish or Swedish politician pipes up "Dude. That's why we want to join NATO."

Multiple Finnish politicians have said things to that effect.

So far, in response to talks of Finnish NATO membership, we've had cyberattacks taking down the websites of Foreign Affairs and Defense Ministries (on the same day when Zelensky spoke to our parliament), reports of Russian personnel shifts on the border, and a Russian fighter crashing close to the Finnish border. :ph34r:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on April 14, 2022, 03:50:45 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 03:45:42 AM
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2022, 02:48:37 AMI'm just hoping in response to the Russian threats a Finnish or Swedish politician pipes up "Dude. That's why we want to join NATO."

Multiple Finnish politicians have said things to that effect.

So far, in response to talks of Finnish NATO membership, we've had cyberattacks taking down the websites of Foreign Affairs and Defense Ministries (on the same day when Zelensky spoke to our parliament), reports of Russian personnel shifts on the border, and a Russian fighter crashing close to the Finnish border. :ph34r:


Sounds like Finland could really help Ukraine by drawing a bunch of Russia troops up there.

Any of these comments amusing?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on April 14, 2022, 03:52:18 AM
Some background on Swedish 200 year strategy.

Back in 1808-9 the Russians invaded and we lost our eastern half, Finland. This led to a lot of constitutional stuff where the king was ousted and replaced with his childless uncle. The Napoleonic wars were raging and confidence was at the bottom with the realisation that Sweden would never ever be able to defeat Russia and reclaim Finland.

So the kind adopted Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte as his heir and the marshal immediately took control of the country, leading it in the later parts of the Napoleonic wars and coming out with Norway as a vassal more or less.

But the realisation was still that Sweden was a minor player and that we would do best to stay away from any great power conflicts. Swedish non-alignment was born.

Based on a strong army and navy we walked the tightrope during the 19th century and we stayed out of WWI. After that, when there was eternal peace, we more or less disbanded the army and when mobilization started up again we became ready for WWII in '48.

But when the war was over Sweden were the great power in northern Europe. The Russian and German navy was no more, so the Swedish navy ruled the Baltic sea and the Swedish air force was the 4th strongest in the world.

The cold war was more or less a continuous relative decline versus the Soviet union, by the 60's the Swedish navy was passed by the Soviets and by the late 80's we only had corvettes and subs, distinctly inferior in numbers. The air force was formidable until the end and the army was respectable and large.

All in all the Soviets were not strong enough to take Sweden and at the same time keep up their numbers elsewhere. And that's what Swedish non-alignment was based on, we had an iron fist under the velvet glove. We spent some 4-5% of GNP on defense.

So we had prime minister Olof Palme calling the US bloody murderers over Vietnam and having a very anti-US rhetoric and at the same time co-operating under the table with western military powers and espionage. Sweden was more less seen as the anchor of Nato i the north, when the war came we were supposed to take care of the Russians in northern Europe, and we would have been able to do it.

Then the cold war ended and all was disbanded again, now we have 20 years of re-building to do. But a lot of Swedish society do still have non-alignment ingrained into it, it's how we were raised and it's seen as a generally successful policy for over 200 years. The social democrats in particular ave very split on this, but polling suggests that only about 45% of the Swedes are for joining Nato even now, even if there's a 70% majority in the parliament. A lot of commentators are still stuck in the 80's mindset without understanding that it was our huge defense forces that made it possible, they seem to believe that the soviets respected our diplomacy.

For the Finns it was different, they were Finlandized and couldn't join Nato, otherwise they would have been as close to founding members as possible I think. Even in Russia's darkest time around the millenium they never disbanded their army, they knew who their neighbour was. They also knew that there wasn't any rush to join Nato, since Russia was weak they could keep their freedom of actions based on the assumption that Russia was a rational actor. Now that Russia proved itself to not be a rational actor it's high time to join Nato.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 04:17:30 AM
Even Finnish left-wing parties, traditionally skeptical of NATO, are moving towards support. Our PM Sanna Marin (social-democrat) has not voiced support officially, but is driving the movement towards membership application. And yesterday the first MP of the Left Alliance (which has been traditionally very anti-NATO) has said that he supports membership. He is Somali and said that he does not want to experience war again like he did as a child. Various other members of his party have also indicated a shift in their views to be more in favour of joining.

It's a bit of a running joke here that Finland is finally being led into NATO by a left-wing female-majority government. :D
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on April 14, 2022, 05:15:32 AM
Apparently Russia's short term answer to this development is going to be deploying nukes to the Baltic.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on April 14, 2022, 05:27:14 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2022, 05:15:32 AMApparently Russia's short term answer to this development is going to be deploying nukes to the Baltic.

Oh no!

Anyway...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2022, 07:29:26 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 03:45:42 AM
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2022, 02:48:37 AMI'm just hoping in response to the Russian threats a Finnish or Swedish politician pipes up "Dude. That's why we want to join NATO."

Multiple Finnish politicians have said things to that effect.

So far, in response to talks of Finnish NATO membership, we've had cyberattacks taking down the websites of Foreign Affairs and Defense Ministries (on the same day when Zelensky spoke to our parliament), reports of Russian personnel shifts on the border, and a Russian fighter crashing close to the Finnish border. :ph34r:

Like I said, the more this goes on, the less compelling the need to join NATO might seem to be....
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on April 14, 2022, 07:47:29 AM
Sweden and Finland in NATO would severely hamper the Russians in the Baltic and make any Russian blyatkrieg into the Baltic states very, very hard.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: FunkMonk on April 14, 2022, 07:55:25 AM
Gaijin de SinkingMoscau is typing up strongly worded posts about how these are simply expected developments from anti-Russian elites in these countries, and that their true populations are actually very pro-Russian invasion of their countries.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2022, 08:02:16 AM
Solmyr, IIRC you're a Finn of Russian descent.  Can you tell us a little more about that?  Like how and why your family ended up in Finland?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: celedhring on April 14, 2022, 08:18:23 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2022, 05:15:32 AMApparently Russia's short term answer to this development is going to be deploying nukes to the Baltic.

Just tell them the Finns/Swedes aren't joining, it's just a special cooperation.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2022, 08:02:16 AMSolmyr, IIRC you're a Finn of Russian descent.  Can you tell us a little more about that?  Like how and why your family ended up in Finland?

I moved here with my mom from St. Petersburg in 1992 when she married a Finnish man. I was 14 at the time. Not a whole lot more to it. :D So I'm not an ethnic Finn as such, but a Finnish citizen. Ethnically actually I'm a mix of Russian/Jewish/Ukrainian/Finnish/Baltic.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on April 14, 2022, 11:10:38 AM
My impression is that Sweden and Finland not joining NATO now would be a gamble. Likely an irresponsible one.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2022, 11:12:13 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:07:30 AMI moved here with my mom from St. Petersburg in 1992 when she married a Finnish man. I was 14 at the time. Not a whole lot more to it. :D So I'm not an ethnic Finn as such, but a Finnish citizen. Ethnically actually I'm a mix of Russian/Jewish/Ukrainian/Finnish/Baltic.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:14:07 AM
Finnish PM Sanna Marin held a press conference today concerning NATO preparations and rocked this look, which caused some conservative politicians pop a vein. :D  :punk:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/773505316691247124/964193686986588160/unknown.png)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2022, 11:15:16 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 14, 2022, 07:55:25 AMGaijin de SinkingMoscau is typing up strongly worded posts about how these are simply expected developments from anti-Russian elites in these countries, and that their true populations are actually very pro-Russian invasion of their countries.

Well, he is not wrong when you consider his definition of the true population does not include the current population of those countries.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2022, 11:15:19 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 14, 2022, 11:10:38 AMMy impression is that Sweden and Finland not joining NATO now would be a gamble. Likely an irresponsible one.
A gamble is something with an uncertain outcome.  Certainly stupid decisions are not gambles, they're just self-sabotage.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2022, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:14:07 AMFinnish PM Sanna Marin held a press conference today concerning NATO preparations and rocked this look, which caused some conservative politicians pop a vein. :D  :punk:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/773505316691247124/964193686986588160/unknown.png)

I love Finland  :)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on April 14, 2022, 11:18:43 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 14, 2022, 07:55:25 AMGaijin de SinkingMoscau is typing up strongly worded posts about how these are simply expected developments from anti-Russian elites in these countries, and that their true populations are actually very pro-Russian invasion of their countries.
But a Georgian babushka, probably not from Gagra, was so appreciative of Gaijin.  That has to count for something, right?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 14, 2022, 11:57:38 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:07:30 AMI moved here with my mom from St. Petersburg in 1992 when she married a Finnish man. I was 14 at the time. Not a whole lot more to it. :D So I'm not an ethnic Finn as such, but a Finnish citizen. Ethnically actually I'm a mix of Russian/Jewish/Ukrainian/Finnish/Baltic.

So in theory you'd be part of the oppressed ethnic Russian minority, yearning to be reunited with the motherland and looking to Putin to protect you interests. In reality, not so much?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2022, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2022, 08:02:16 AMSolmyr, IIRC you're a Finn of Russian descent.  Can you tell us a little more about that?  Like how and why your family ended up in Finland?

I moved here with my mom from St. Petersburg in 1992 when she married a Finnish man. I was 14 at the time. Not a whole lot more to it. :D So I'm not an ethnic Finn as such, but a Finnish citizen. Ethnically actually I'm a mix of Russian/Jewish/Ukrainian/Finnish/Baltic.


If you feel like discussing it...

How are you treated in Finland since, I'm assuming, you must have a Russian accent?  Has it changed since the Ukraine invasion?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on April 14, 2022, 12:20:34 PM
If he moved there when he was 14 I doubt he has a Russian accent.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on April 14, 2022, 12:24:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 14, 2022, 12:20:34 PMIf he moved there when he was 14 I doubt he has a Russian accent.

My experience from seeing other people is that if they move to Canada in their teens they're likely to have an accent, if it's more like gradeschool more likely not.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: ulmont on April 14, 2022, 02:06:04 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2022, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:14:07 AMFinnish PM Sanna Marin held a press conference today concerning NATO preparations and rocked this look, which caused some conservative politicians pop a vein. :D  :punk:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/773505316691247124/964193686986588160/unknown.png)

I love Finland  :)

Strong Tammi of Finland vibes.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 14, 2022, 08:58:11 PM
Quote from: ulmont on April 14, 2022, 02:06:04 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2022, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:14:07 AMFinnish PM Sanna Marin held a press conference today concerning NATO preparations and rocked this look, which caused some conservative politicians pop a vein. :D  :punk:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/773505316691247124/964193686986588160/unknown.png)

I love Finland  :)

Strong Tammi of Finland vibes.

What does that mean? Ron Swanson's next wife?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 15, 2022, 03:45:20 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 14, 2022, 11:57:38 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:07:30 AMI moved here with my mom from St. Petersburg in 1992 when she married a Finnish man. I was 14 at the time. Not a whole lot more to it. :D So I'm not an ethnic Finn as such, but a Finnish citizen. Ethnically actually I'm a mix of Russian/Jewish/Ukrainian/Finnish/Baltic.

So in theory you'd be part of the oppressed ethnic Russian minority, yearning to be reunited with the motherland and looking to Putin to protect you interests. In reality, not so much?

In theory, yes.  :P Actually the Russian embassy in Finland recently asked all Russians here to report incidents of oppression directly to them. :ph34r:

I don't actually have much contact with the Russian community here anyway. Pretty much all my friends and acquaintances are Finnish. I just occasionally go to the Russian shop to get some food that I like (which is made in Estonia, Poland, or Germany anyway). Also sometimes read the monthly Russian newspaper publication here (it's actually rather nice in holding the assumption that Finland is a good place to live, even though it doesn't really mention Russia negatively).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 15, 2022, 03:50:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2022, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2022, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2022, 08:02:16 AMSolmyr, IIRC you're a Finn of Russian descent.  Can you tell us a little more about that?  Like how and why your family ended up in Finland?

I moved here with my mom from St. Petersburg in 1992 when she married a Finnish man. I was 14 at the time. Not a whole lot more to it. :D So I'm not an ethnic Finn as such, but a Finnish citizen. Ethnically actually I'm a mix of Russian/Jewish/Ukrainian/Finnish/Baltic.


If you feel like discussing it...

How are you treated in Finland since, I'm assuming, you must have a Russian accent?  Has it changed since the Ukraine invasion?

I don't really have a Russian accent. I started studying Finnish when I was 10, and even though native speakers can sometimes tell that I'm not one, not many can guess my Russian roots unless I tell them. If anything, my Russian now has a bit of an accent. :lol: It helps that I've had a good head for languages and pronunciation and given an example, I can repeat things pretty well.

As for how I'm treated, I've pretty much always been treated with a friendly attitude. No oppression or intolerance or anything. My name is not Russian-sounding though (I changed my surname early on to my father's, which is Jewish but sounds Swedish) and I don't really emphasize my Russianness in any major way. So I guess I've integrated pretty well.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: ulmont on April 15, 2022, 10:41:03 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 14, 2022, 08:58:11 PM
Quote from: ulmont on April 14, 2022, 02:06:04 PMStrong Tammi of Finland vibes.

What does that mean? Ron Swanson's next wife?

Tom of Finland was a famous artist whose subjects often wore similar leather jackets.  Tammi is one of the more common female variants of Tom.  You do the math.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on April 30, 2022, 07:54:49 PM
Swedish airspace violated by a Russian turboprop reconnaissance plane, I think a twin engined Antonov design.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 01, 2022, 11:38:29 AM
Quote from: mongers on April 30, 2022, 07:54:49 PMSwedish airspace violated by a Russian turboprop reconnaissance plane, I think a twin engined Antonov design.

Toothless seething.

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 01, 2022, 08:43:51 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 01, 2022, 11:38:29 AM
Quote from: mongers on April 30, 2022, 07:54:49 PMSwedish airspace violated by a Russian turboprop reconnaissance plane, I think a twin engined Antonov design.

Sweden or Russia?

Toothless seething.


Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 02, 2022, 02:40:51 PM
Finland will apply for NATO membership in a few days.

Finland will decide to apply for NATO membership on May 12. (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-will-decide-apply-nato-membership-may-12-says-iltalehti-newspaper-2022-05-02/?taid=626f84f70e82b80001a320fb&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on May 02, 2022, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 02, 2022, 02:40:51 PMFinland will apply for NATO membership in a few days.

Finland will decide to apply for NATO membership on May 12. (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-will-decide-apply-nato-membership-may-12-says-iltalehti-newspaper-2022-05-02/?taid=626f84f70e82b80001a320fb&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)

:cool:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2022, 06:04:54 PM
Huzzah!
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 02, 2022, 08:41:07 PM
Putin remains a master strategist.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 02, 2022, 08:48:35 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 14, 2022, 07:55:25 AMGaijin de SinkingMoscau

I LOL'd.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F002%2F348%2F965%2F81f.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: FunkMonk on May 02, 2022, 09:28:27 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2022, 03:14:17 AM
They took it to heart when told to fuck themselves.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 03:59:15 AM
Russia has put up posters in Moscow outside the Swedish embassy complaining about famous Swedish "Nazis" from history. Writers, film directors etc. Russia's propaganda game continues to be abysmal.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 03, 2022, 05:29:11 AM
Yeah, it's more or less the same thing they did to justify he war in Ukraine. We need to enter Nato yesterday.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 03, 2022, 07:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 03:59:15 AMRussia has put up posters in Moscow outside the Swedish embassy complaining about famous Swedish "Nazis" from history. Writers, film directors etc. Russia's propaganda game continues to be abysmal.

Do they mention Bergman?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 08:06:04 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 03, 2022, 07:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 03:59:15 AMRussia has put up posters in Moscow outside the Swedish embassy complaining about famous Swedish "Nazis" from history. Writers, film directors etc. Russia's propaganda game continues to be abysmal.

Do they mention Bergman?

They do.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 03, 2022, 10:47:42 AM
When Finland joins NATO what's Sweden going to do?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on May 03, 2022, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 02, 2022, 08:41:07 PMPutin remains a master strategist.

You are just jealous that his masterly maneuvers forced NATO's hands to reveal and hasten their aggressive enveloping of Russia.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 03, 2022, 11:37:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 03, 2022, 11:29:18 AMYou are just jealous that his masterly maneuvers forced NATO's hands to reveal and hasten their aggressive enveloping of Russia.

Before the war this was the NATO border situation.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNtppoUWQAAneRe?format=jpg&name=medium)

That's some major "encirclement" right there...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on May 03, 2022, 11:40:34 AM
You appear unaware of that completely baseless JPEG that has a world map showing NATO bases absolutely everywhere in the world around Russia, which has been a trusty aid of Russiapologists for the past decade or so.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 03, 2022, 11:48:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 03, 2022, 11:40:34 AMYou appear unaware of that completely baseless JPEG that has a world map showing NATO bases absolutely everywhere in the world around Russia, which has been a trusty aid of Russiapologists for the past decade or so.

Yeah the vatniks are about to get a lot more expensive NATO border plus an implacable enemy right on their doorstep. Finally they'll have something to complain about. 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 03, 2022, 10:47:42 AMWhen Finland joins NATO what's Sweden going to do?

Join NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 03, 2022, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 03, 2022, 10:47:42 AMWhen Finland joins NATO what's Sweden going to do?

Join NATO.

Probably.

Though the sensible thing to do seems to be hide behind Finland.

Or would that leave gotland too much of an even more important and tempting target.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 03, 2022, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 03, 2022, 10:47:42 AMWhen Finland joins NATO what's Sweden going to do?

Join NATO.

Probably.

Though the sensible thing to do seems to be hide behind Finland.

Or would that leave gotland too much of an even more important and tempting target.

My impression is indeed that staying out would leave Gotland way too open to invasion.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2022, 07:11:34 PM
This would seem to be a good time to fast-track Georgia into NATO.  Just to blow the Russians' minds to bits.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2022, 06:51:07 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 08:06:04 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 03, 2022, 07:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2022, 03:59:15 AMRussia has put up posters in Moscow outside the Swedish embassy complaining about famous Swedish "Nazis" from history. Writers, film directors etc. Russia's propaganda game continues to be abysmal.

Do they mention Bergman?
They do.

But not Dolph Lundgren? Good.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 04, 2022, 09:15:56 AM
Interesting - US and UK apparently offered defence assurances to Finland and Sweden while they were making applictions. But seems like Ben Wallace has slightly expanded that from a UK perspective (which sort of makes sense given JEF of NATO/non-NATO and EU/non-EU countries) in Helsinki today.

He said that in the event of an attack on Sweden or Finland - whether they're in NATO or not - the UK would "come to their defence". It's not quite as encompassing as NATO obligations and has perhaps always been there, but it feels worthwhile making the sub-text text at this point. From what I've read it looks like Labour are basically sympathetic on this too so there's consensus on it whoever's in power, which is nice. Obviously if they join NATO then it's far more direct.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on May 04, 2022, 09:43:23 AM
The one benefit of Johnson being a disgrace is that he and his party are super-eager to be involved in war things to keep voter attention on that.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 04, 2022, 09:51:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 04, 2022, 09:43:23 AMThe one benefit of Johnson being a disgrace is that he and his party are super-eager to be involved in war things to keep voter attention on that.
Not voters - voters don't matter right now and are only paying a bit of attention. The only people who can remove Johnson are Tory MPs and they do care and are paying attention. Ben Wallace is, after all, probably the most plausible successor to Johnson (and Liz Truss in the FCDO is another).

But it's also helped by Labour being desperate to put clear red water between where they are now v when Corbyn was leader :lol:

I think the consensus around this (and Hong Kong, Ukraine etc) is really striking and interesting. I think basically after the understandable and justifiable post-Iraq isolation that the UK's position on lots of issues seems to have snapped back to a sort of active (little bit interventionist) liberalism. From my perspective it's not an unattractive position. That consensus might be Blair's biggest legacy, despite it also containing his biggest failures.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 09, 2022, 02:31:02 AM
The Swedish ruling Social Democrats will make a decision on the 15th. An application to join NATO will likely follow shortly after.

The only parties against NATO are the Greens and the Reds.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 09, 2022, 03:50:29 AM
Finland's Left Alliance (traditionally known for its opposition to NATO) has decided that it will not oppose a NATO application and not leave the government coalition over it. So now no major party in the parliament opposes NATO membership. The only "party" opposing is "Power Belongs to the People", consisting of one MP (who split off the right-wing nationalist Finns party a couple of years ago), widely regarded as a Kremlin stooge/useful idiot.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 09, 2022, 03:53:06 AM
What an amazingly far left name for a far right party.
The modern far right really is strange.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PM
What with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 10, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P

Or the left use of "democratic"
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on May 10, 2022, 11:49:12 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 09, 2022, 02:31:02 AMThe only parties against NATO are the Greens and the Reds.

Then the Blues must be in favour.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2022, 11:51:08 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P

Germany is weird. Big history of socialism from the right. Plus völkisch arguably has a definite ethnic German slant rather than just meaning the same as people-what with excluding Jews being core to its whole deal.

Generally however the far right will go on about the X People specifically. Not people in general. That tends to be more the left.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2022, 11:53:15 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 10, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P

Or the left use of "democratic"

:huh:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 10, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P

Or the left use of "democratic"
I liked in a rhetorical way the pleonasmic concept of people's democracy (sic).

:P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 10, 2022, 11:53:15 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 10, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P

Or the left use of "democratic"

:huh:


I assume he means all the commie dictatorships that are labelled "Democratic People's Republic of Whatever".

Re. the Nazis and the "socialist" epithet in their name, it has to be understood within the historical context of post WW I Germany and the political turnmoil that took place during the Weimar Republic.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2022, 12:13:04 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 10, 2022, 11:53:15 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 10, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 10, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 09, 2022, 09:42:12 PMWhat with "national socialists" and all, not exactly without precedent.  ;)

Next, Josquius discovers the meaning of "völkisch.  :P

Or the left use of "democratic"

:huh:


I assume he means all the commie dictatorships that are labelled "Democratic People's Republic of Whatever".

Ah. Not sure that is too similar. Most right wing dictatorships do the same too...though certainly a subset of them don't.

QuoteRe. the Nazis and the "socialist" epithet in their name, it has to be understood within the historical context of post WW I Germany and the political turnmoil that took place during the Weimar Republic.

It was a call back to Bismark's State Socialism, originally thrown at him by Liberals as a smear, but which became neutrally adopted to accurately describe the German system of conservative socialism that he founded.

But yeah, original pre war fascism had in general tended to co-opt a lot of the left's language.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 10, 2022, 12:18:33 PM
Looks like the Parliamentary Defense Committee in Finland has recommended NATO membership: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/10/finnish-parliaments-defence-committee-recommends-nato-membership

One step closer.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 10, 2022, 05:54:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 12:05:26 PMI assume he means all the commie dictatorships that are labelled "Democratic People's Republic of Whatever".

 :grr: We are the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Whatever!
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 06:05:28 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 10, 2022, 05:54:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 12:05:26 PMI assume he means all the commie dictatorships that are labelled "Democratic People's Republic of Whatever".

 :grr: We are the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Whatever!

Splitters!  :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2022, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 06:05:28 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 10, 2022, 05:54:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 10, 2022, 12:05:26 PMI assume he means all the commie dictatorships that are labelled "Democratic People's Republic of Whatever".

 :grr: We are the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Whatever!

Splitters!  :P

I thought we were the Popular Democratic Republic.  :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 11, 2022, 09:26:34 AM
So the UK signing mutual defence with Sweden... Might this reduce the odds of full NATO membership?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 11, 2022, 09:37:34 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 11, 2022, 09:26:34 AMSo the UK signing mutual defence with Sweden... Might this reduce the odds of full NATO membership?

Looks to me like the security guarantees intended to bridge the gap until NATO membership.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 12, 2022, 02:42:16 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSieyAFXIAMPpe2?format=png&name=large)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 12, 2022, 03:00:09 AM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/848564915919650866/974209198646775839/88ft5xoouzy81.jpeg)

For reference, this is a Finnish meme of "torille" ("to the market square"), based on the fact that Finns get drunk and head out to the central Market Square whenever something really great happens (like beating Sweden in ice hockey world championships). Often they also get naked and swim in the fountain there. Normally this meme has the guy waving the Finnish flag. :D
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 12, 2022, 03:08:12 AM
:cheers:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 12, 2022, 04:56:36 AM
Let's just hope our Social Democrats don't go full retard after this...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 12, 2022, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Threviel on May 12, 2022, 04:56:36 AMLet's just hope our Social Democrats don't go full retard after this...

tell them it is time to be Finlandized.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 12, 2022, 10:06:46 AM
Sauli and Sanna are great names.  Great mob nicknames, from across the river.  Sauli and Sanna, they're made guys with the Hoboken crew.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 12, 2022, 10:07:10 AM
Good news :cheers:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2022, 10:33:19 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 12, 2022, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Threviel on May 12, 2022, 04:56:36 AMLet's just hope our Social Democrats don't go full retard after this...

tell them it is time to be Finlandized.


 :D
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 12, 2022, 06:36:16 PM
Such an impressive and clear statement of why the shift from Finland's President:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhLNBxpo8zY

I imagine being a clear communicator is all the more important when you live next to Putin because I always get the sense he lives in exploiting and pushing at grey or uncertain areas.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 04:22:02 AM
The Swedish government is right now presenting their report on Nato membership right now. 6 out of 8 parties are behind a Nato membership (the greens and the leftist against).

So, it very much seems that the Social Democrats are not going full retard.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2022, 04:46:16 AM
Quote from: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 04:22:02 AMThe Swedish government is right now presenting their report on Nato membership right now. 6 out of 8 parties are behind a Nato membership (the greens and the leftist against).

So, it very much seems that the Social Democrats are not going full retard.
The far right not against going up against their mates in Russia?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 04:50:20 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 13, 2022, 04:46:16 AM
Quote from: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 04:22:02 AMThe Swedish government is right now presenting their report on Nato membership right now. 6 out of 8 parties are behind a Nato membership (the greens and the leftist against).

So, it very much seems that the Social Democrats are not going full retard.
The far right not against going up against their mates in Russia?

They are first and foremost populists and you don't win votes right now by seeming friendly to Russia. Even so they are on the don't care side of politics, their vote doesn't matter one way or another.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 13, 2022, 04:52:37 AM
Yeah right now they leave the Kremlin-hugging to the far left.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 05:54:12 AM
Yeah, lots of old lefties have come out of the woodwork to rally against Nato. I think some of them believe that we are in a situation resembling the cold war rather than the interwar period.

But a lot of them are old communist "peace" activists saying that we should disarm, the war is our fault and so on. Useful idiots.

I don't really understand why, Russia is a fascist threat, they should want it contained. But logic is always a scarce resource on the outer edges of politics.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AM
Quote from: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 05:54:12 AMYeah, lots of old lefties have come out of the woodwork to rally against Nato. I think some of them believe that we are in a situation resembling the cold war rather than the interwar period.

But a lot of them are old communist "peace" activists saying that we should disarm, the war is our fault and so on. Useful idiots.

I don't really understand why, Russia is a fascist threat, they should want it contained. But logic is always a scarce resource on the outer edges of politics.

Because that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 07:51:29 AM
Apparently Erdogan does not want Sweden in Nato, since we have a history of supporting PKK.

Which is a fair point I guess, I had just assumed that every member state already had been asked and that they could have aired grievances before we stick our necks out.

Likewise Hungary might veto if the Russians tell them to, I was assuming that they had already given their ok.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 13, 2022, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 13, 2022, 04:52:37 AMYeah right now they leave the Kremlin-hugging to the far left.

Being geographically close to Russia does that, to the far-right.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 07:56:38 AM
Ohh, apparently the Swedish and Turkish foreign ministers spoke two days ago and nothing was mentioned. There's apparently been lots of meetings where this could have been mentioned. It seems Erdogan waited until our necks were out to force the issue.

Someone should kick that ass out of Nato.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 13, 2022, 08:06:48 AM
Quote from: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 07:56:38 AMSomeone should kick that ass out of Nato.

Well, if we're not going to kick anti-Nato Hungary out, I don't see us kicking out non-Nato Turkey.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 13, 2022, 08:19:28 AM
If it's anything more than their usual fishing for bribes, and they actually block us, then we will have to do without NATO. It's not like it's Hungarian and Turkish aid we count on to deter Russia. Defensive alliances with the US and UK will do.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 13, 2022, 08:28:50 AM
Finnish Foreign Minister has apparently requested formal defence guarantees (like from the UK) from France, Germany, Italy and Spain. I believe France and Germany have already indicated they would offer this.

But given those countries it sounds like the Finns aren't satisfied with the ambiguity of Article 42.7 - and, in fairness, the Finns have pushed for clarity on that for years, but have now decided that in the current context an ambiguous part of a treaty isn't sufficient anymore. Understandably, I think.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 13, 2022, 09:58:27 AM
That's a pretty dick move by Turkey if true. Especially since - if handled a bit better - they could probably have parlayed their assent into Sweden providing less support to PKK.

EDIT: It appears the Turkish reservations apply to both Finland and Sweden. Seems like Erdogan is trying to butter both sides of his toast with respect to Russia here.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 13, 2022, 11:01:31 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 13, 2022, 09:58:27 AMThat's a pretty dick move by Turkey if true. Especially since - if handled a bit better - they could probably have parlayed their assent into Sweden providing less support to PKK.

EDIT: It appears the Turkish reservations apply to both Finland and Sweden. Seems like Erdogan is trying to butter both sides of his toast with respect to Russia here.

My favorite part is when he says allowing them to enter would be a mistake such as accepting Greece.  :lol:

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2022, 11:21:07 AM
What's vague on 42.7?
It sounds like a fairly clear mutual defence no?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 13, 2022, 11:26:24 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 13, 2022, 11:21:07 AMWhat's vague on 42.7?
It sounds like a fairly clear mutual defence no?

Pretty sure various parties have expressed that it's ambiguous as well, in terms of what they'd have to do. And if people say it's ambiguous, then there's uncertainty.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 13, 2022, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 13, 2022, 11:21:07 AMWhat's vague on 42.7?
It sounds like a fairly clear mutual defence no?
Not really - there's tensions and ambiguities in it. There's been a lot of academic writing about what it might mean. That is absolutely normal in European law which is often a little vague and ambiguous. (normally because it's a compromise) - but states who think they may need to rely on it have tried to add a little definition to what it means and when it applies without much success.

For example, the original draft it was drawn from explicitly mentioned "military assistance". Article 42.7 moved that down to "mutual aid and assistance" - possibly to try and accommodate neutral states like Sweden, Ireland and Austria. But it's not clear what the requirement is in terms of "mutual aid and asssistance". Certain countries have wanted to try and clarify/operationalise that - especially Greece and Finland. Others say it means what it says so is limited and others see pragmatism in keeping it vague because it allows flexibility for member states. But it in no way requires mutual defence or any military assistance at all, or an Article 5 style "an attack on one is an attack on all".

It also explicitly refers out to NATO obligations but it's not clear how they're meant to interact, or how 42.7 interacts with Article 222 of the TFEU (which is about what the EU should do, while 42.7 is about what member states should do). 222 explicitly calls out military resources and the circumstances when it can be triggered, obviously the issue with that is the EU doesn't have much in the way of military resources, while the member states do.

There's also been debate about what constitutes "armed aggression" - for example would it include terrorism or cyber attacks within a countries territory? Practically that would be settled by the member states and an invasion would certainly constitute "armed agression", but it's not impossible to imagine a situation where a member state considers that they're facing "armed aggression" and the rest of the EU disagrees - this has almost happened a couple of times with Greece and Turkey. That's one of the reasons France and Greece entered their mutual defence pact.

The ambiguity is probably deliberate because, for example, Ireland is constitutionally neutral. It is not providing arms to Ukraine and it is not a member of NATO. It would be an issue for Ireland if they had some mutual defence obligations through the EU if, for example, a convoy of equipment from NATO countries was attacked in Poland on the way to Ukraine was attacked.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 13, 2022, 11:56:23 AM
An "mutual aid and assistance" could also mean "we'll supply you weapons and sanction Russia if they invade your country, but we won't provide a single soldier or attack any Russian assets". If you're say Finland, you may want something a little more robust.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 13, 2022, 02:23:36 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 13, 2022, 09:58:27 AMThat's a pretty dick move by Turkey if true. Especially since - if handled a bit better - they could probably have parlayed their assent into Sweden providing less support to PKK.

EDIT: It appears the Turkish reservations apply to both Finland and Sweden. Seems like Erdogan is trying to butter both sides of his toast with respect to Russia here.
I think he probably is using his leverage to get concessions on the PKK (plus show off in Turkey). You're right it is a dick move but I think now is also the point of maximum leverage - if he raises it while Sweden and Finland are preparing to apply then it's something that is bilateral and they can probably talk about and fix. If he raises it once they've applied and everyone's super keen, then he can make it an issue for the entire alliance and possibly extract concessions from other countries as well.

Turkey's definitely having it both ways on the war - but Turkey and Israel are the countries so far that the Ukrainians and Russians have used as avenues for talks and contacts because both sides trust them and they have good relations with both. I think that's probably worth keeping open, especially if they keep sending Bayraktars - and just the other day there was a report that new ones keep getting to Ukraine so...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AMBecause that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms

I tend to take a more charitable view of peaceniks: that their position is based on taking pacifism to it's illogical end point.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 14, 2022, 12:48:09 AM
Interestingly this was a great opportunity for the leftists. They have a new leader that's been hard on the government and has done some popular stuff, allying with the populists to get some things through parliament and so on. When it came to sending weapons to Ukraine they changed their internal rules to allow them to vote yes and so on.

In a lot of ways they've broken out of their historical mold and gone more sensible. Nato would be an opportunity for them to take the next step and would make them more feasible as a future government partner, like the populists on the right did. But I guess they just can't stop gobbling on that glorious Russian cock...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AM
It is mystifying why so many of the far left remain close to Russia... Despite the current regime having brutally killed off the USSR and being quite the opposite of it in many ways.
It's like they forgot why they saw the Soviets as their friends in the first place and think it's simply because they like that bit of the map.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AMBecause that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms

I tend to take a more charitable view of peaceniks: that their position is based on taking pacifism to it's illogical end point.

:yes:

There are some who follow a twisted logic of America = bad. Russia =America says they're bad. Ergo Russia =good.
But they're fairly a minority, especially amongst actual politicians.

Even with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

With most its more a naiive "NATO forced Russia into the war. Russia ain't that bad. Military alliances are always bad, they have military in the name. Just stop fighting and give peace a chance!"
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2022, 07:26:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMEven with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

Lolwut
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2022, 07:26:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMEven with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

Lolwut
Aggressive militaristic state in the pocket of the oil and arms industries, anti democratic when people choose not to elect politicians that tow their line, and so on.

It's not entirely without merit.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2022, 08:25:22 AM
Right, the West is defined by being anti-militarist.  :lol:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 08:38:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMIt is mystifying why so many of the far left remain close to Russia... Despite the current regime having brutally killed off the USSR and being quite the opposite of it in many ways.
It's like they forgot why they saw the Soviets as their friends in the first place and think it's simply because they like that bit of the map.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AMBecause that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms

I tend to take a more charitable view of peaceniks: that their position is based on taking pacifism to it's illogical end point.

:yes:

There are some who follow a twisted logic of America = bad. Russia =America says they're bad. Ergo Russia =good.
But they're fairly a minority, especially amongst actual politicians.

Even with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

With most its more a naiive "NATO forced Russia into the war. Russia ain't that bad. Military alliances are always bad, they have military in the name. Just stop fighting and give peace a chance!"
I think there is still a huge element of "America is bad" out there. This is basically the consequence of America still be so economically, socially, and militarily dominant.

But the problem with that is that if America is to bad, well, what's the alternative? They have to have one, so the default becomes whoever opposes America. 

I've never understood the logic of that. In their world, we would all be better off if the Soviets had dominated the planet? The Chinese? Who exactly would be the better America (other then simply a better America, of course).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Malthus on May 14, 2022, 10:20:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 08:38:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMIt is mystifying why so many of the far left remain close to Russia... Despite the current regime having brutally killed off the USSR and being quite the opposite of it in many ways.
It's like they forgot why they saw the Soviets as their friends in the first place and think it's simply because they like that bit of the map.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AMBecause that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms

I tend to take a more charitable view of peaceniks: that their position is based on taking pacifism to it's illogical end point.

:yes:

There are some who follow a twisted logic of America = bad. Russia =America says they're bad. Ergo Russia =good.
But they're fairly a minority, especially amongst actual politicians.

Even with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

With most its more a naiive "NATO forced Russia into the war. Russia ain't that bad. Military alliances are always bad, they have military in the name. Just stop fighting and give peace a chance!"
I think there is still a huge element of "America is bad" out there. This is basically the consequence of America still be so economically, socially, and militarily dominant.

But the problem with that is that if America is to bad, well, what's the alternative? They have to have one, so the default becomes whoever opposes America.

I've never understood the logic of that. In their world, we would all be better off if the Soviets had dominated the planet? The Chinese? Who exactly would be the better America (other then simply a better America, of course).

What I have seen from sincere lefty peacenik types, is a belief that no one great power ought to dominate at all - that what should dominate, is something like the UN, only without the Security Council. A kind of global democracy ought to be sovereign, rather than some great powers. Also, equal representation for the poor in the third world, global redistribution.

Problem is, there is no roadmap as to how to get there in a world composed of great powers. Nor any way to convince those in the first world they ought to voluntarily average themselves with, say, the poor of Bangladesh.

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 10:35:51 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 14, 2022, 10:20:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 08:38:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMIt is mystifying why so many of the far left remain close to Russia... Despite the current regime having brutally killed off the USSR and being quite the opposite of it in many ways.
It's like they forgot why they saw the Soviets as their friends in the first place and think it's simply because they like that bit of the map.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AMBecause that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms

I tend to take a more charitable view of peaceniks: that their position is based on taking pacifism to it's illogical end point.

:yes:

There are some who follow a twisted logic of America = bad. Russia =America says they're bad. Ergo Russia =good.
But they're fairly a minority, especially amongst actual politicians.

Even with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

With most its more a naiive "NATO forced Russia into the war. Russia ain't that bad. Military alliances are always bad, they have military in the name. Just stop fighting and give peace a chance!"
I think there is still a huge element of "America is bad" out there. This is basically the consequence of America still be so economically, socially, and militarily dominant.

But the problem with that is that if America is to bad, well, what's the alternative? They have to have one, so the default becomes whoever opposes America.

I've never understood the logic of that. In their world, we would all be better off if the Soviets had dominated the planet? The Chinese? Who exactly would be the better America (other then simply a better America, of course).

What I have seen from sincere lefty peacenik types, is a belief that no one great power ought to dominate at all - that what should dominate, is something like the UN, only without the Security Council. A kind of global democracy ought to be sovereign, rather than some great powers. Also, equal representation for the poor in the third world, global redistribution.

Problem is, there is no roadmap as to how to get there in a world composed of great powers. Nor any way to convince those in the first world they ought to voluntarily average themselves with, say, the poor of Bangladesh.



I think the argument there would be that most in the west would be better off too. Its the shadowy billionaires with their vast riches who would be the only ones to lose out.
On a surface level the maths add up, but of course it displays a sort of over simplification down to 2d cause and effect that you usually just see from conservatives.

But yes. As someone from the sensible left that would be the dream. Bring on the united federation of planets.

Possibly something that differentiates the Russia shaggers from the peaceniks. They tend to detest anything international (yet somehow claim to be left wing)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2022, 07:26:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMEven with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

Lolwut
Aggressive militaristic state in the pocket of the oil and arms industries, anti democratic when people choose not to elect politicians that tow their line, and so on.

It's not entirely without merit.
Not to mention the evil, filthy cities they build and forcing their culture down everyone's throat, amirite?
Naive vs anti-American aren't two conflicting view points.  They are two great tastes that taste great together.  All conflict is caused by America (and it's colony Israeli of course) so the road to peace is through destroying American power. Militarily if necessary. Naturally American propaganda is going to make those countries that resist American power look like despots and fascists, but don't believe it

This is at least better than right wing Putin apologism which boils down to "Putin is a fascist and I want some of that!"
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 02:24:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 14, 2022, 10:20:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 08:38:28 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AMIt is mystifying why so many of the far left remain close to Russia... Despite the current regime having brutally killed off the USSR and being quite the opposite of it in many ways.
It's like they forgot why they saw the Soviets as their friends in the first place and think it's simply because they like that bit of the map.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 13, 2022, 07:44:23 AMBecause that type of leftism is permeated by hate for the west and its freedoms

I tend to take a more charitable view of peaceniks: that their position is based on taking pacifism to it's illogical end point.

:yes:

There are some who follow a twisted logic of America = bad. Russia =America says they're bad. Ergo Russia =good.
But they're fairly a minority, especially amongst actual politicians.

Even with these though it's not a hate for the west so much as a belief America is anti West.

With most its more a naiive "NATO forced Russia into the war. Russia ain't that bad. Military alliances are always bad, they have military in the name. Just stop fighting and give peace a chance!"
I think there is still a huge element of "America is bad" out there. This is basically the consequence of America still be so economically, socially, and militarily dominant.

But the problem with that is that if America is to bad, well, what's the alternative? They have to have one, so the default becomes whoever opposes America.

I've never understood the logic of that. In their world, we would all be better off if the Soviets had dominated the planet? The Chinese? Who exactly would be the better America (other then simply a better America, of course).

What I have seen from sincere lefty peacenik types, is a belief that no one great power ought to dominate at all - that what should dominate, is something like the UN, only without the Security Council. A kind of global democracy ought to be sovereign, rather than some great powers. Also, equal representation for the poor in the third world, global redistribution.

Problem is, there is no roadmap as to how to get there in a world composed of great powers. Nor any way to convince those in the first world they ought to voluntarily average themselves with, say, the poor of Bangladesh.


I am actually pretty sympathetic to that as an ideal. I really like America, but I don't actually think there is anything intrinsic about those words to describe a country that makes it somehow especially suitable to dominate the world. 

But that doesn't explain those who want that embracing the USSR. Or China. Or Russia. 

I would call what you are describing, in fact, the "better America". 

But the USSR is not a better America, or better Lefty Peacenik dream either. And I don't understand how one could contemplate the argument even that it is closer to that ideal even - it seems rather obviously further away.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Malthus on May 14, 2022, 02:43:22 PM
(I can't crop on my phone)

I could more easily understand those who hold out the USSR as an ideal, than present-day Russia.

Sure, the Soviets were horrible. However, they at least in theory espoused a utopian ideology. I never believed in that ideology, but I can understand someone who might. Like a sincere Catholic who acknowledges the abuses of the Church, but insists that this does not undermine that Christianity represents the best moral hope of humanity if only it reformed itself (another position I have never held, of course), a believer in Communism could hold that the Soviets, horrible though they were, represent the best possible governance of the world - if they could only get their shit together and put in place "true" Communism.

That I could understand. Disagree with, but at least it makes sense in its own terms.

What I can't understand, is those outside of Russia who somehow take Russia's side nowadays after the fall of the Soviets. They are horrible without espousing any utopian ideology. Their ideology, insofar as it exists, is raw Russian ethno-nationalism. Unless it is their very backwardness in social matters and attachment to a strong man that is attractive, I can't see any reason to take their side. 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 03:28:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 02:24:07 PM[".

But the USSR is not a better America, or better Lefty Peacenik dream either. And I don't understand how one could contemplate the argument even that it is closer to that ideal even - it seems rather obviously further away.

On the USSR the saner defences I've seen say that to varying extents (if crazy as far as stalin at his worst, more moderately the actually not as bad as people think post stalin years) most of the bad shit about the Soviet union was just there as it was a nation under siege by reactionary powers, it never got a fair chance and had to do insert bad thing here because they had no choice,it was that or threaten any chance of communism.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 14, 2022, 03:52:35 PM
And that's why people who peddle utopian ideas, and those who follow the peddlers, are so damn dangerous. They'll gladly kill millions calling it moral and they'll gladly excuse the most horrible things because it was for the best of ideals.

Well, f that. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PM
The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Grey Fox on May 14, 2022, 05:32:42 PM
The thing with America is that it's hegemony is really annoying when you're on the receiving end of it, just like it would be if it was China or Russia or the English empire.

I've worked for a Quebec company, a Canadian company and an American company. I have not change jobs or responsibilities . It has not had any positive effects on the work or our products. It only creates hurdles and share holder values.

Fucking share holders.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on May 14, 2022, 06:37:16 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 14, 2022, 05:32:42 PMThe thing with America is that it's hegemony is really annoying when you're on the receiving end of it, just like it would be if it was China or Russia or the English empire.


I think this is the crux of it.

Anyone in charge would be seen by a lot of people who aren't really using reason but rather emotion as being the assholes.

That is a initial cognitive breakdown, but then it gets followed up with deciding that the wanna-bes in charge would be much better assholes if they were in charge....
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 14, 2022, 06:54:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 14, 2022, 02:43:22 PMWhat I can't understand, is those outside of Russia who somehow take Russia's side nowadays after the fall of the Soviets. They are horrible without espousing any utopian ideology. Their ideology, insofar as it exists, is raw Russian ethno-nationalism. Unless it is their very backwardness in social matters and attachment to a strong man that is attractive, I can't see any reason to take their side. 
In the UK the Stop the War Coalition is one of many front organsiations that's actually run by the Socialist Workers Party who are Trots. It's the classic tactic of the hard left of setting up attractive front organisations that build support among ordinary people on the left but are actually run by the party - off the top of my head Stand up to Racism is another big campaign of theirs.

Their take is old school Trotskyism. The USSR was a deformed workers' state. The US is an imperial hegemon so to resist US hegemony is to be anti-imperialist - and they support anti-imperialist struggle. They also tend to have a view (a little like Hobson on imperialism) that the US as a hegemon has an interest in war and violence even when it's not an active participant because it helps support the arms industry - basically the reason there was no slump after WW2 as there was after WW1 is because the US stayed on an arms footing.

That means they will broadly support whoever is opposed to the US as an anti-imperialist force and providing any form of military support to (for example, Ukraine) is merely fuelling the American permanent war economy supported by a war-fuelling media environment.

They'll ally with someone like Galloway who just likes dictatorships. Their line is slightly different and normally that of course they condemn all violence and human rights abuses, but it is more important that we don't further fuel conflict by supporting, say, Ukraine or opposing, say, Russia or Assad. As ever, everything before the "but" is just throat clearing.

Edit: On SWP fronts - during the 70s and 80s when fighting the National Front there was the Anti-Nazi League, they also had an anti-poll tax front during the poll tax riots in the late 80s. They constantly do it when there's a cause that picks up a lot of left-wing support and you see their banners and signs everywhere carried by people who have no idea. They'll probably set up a climate one next.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 14, 2022, 07:25:29 PM
I am very unfond of the entryist International Socialists, which is what the SWP calls itself in Canada.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 14, 2022, 07:32:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 14, 2022, 07:25:29 PMI am very unfond of the entryist International Socialists, which is what the SWP calls itself in Canada.
Yeah, same. I don't like them at all here.

I generally swerve any demonstration I see which one of their front groups are organising. I've been to a couple without realising that the organisers were actually just a front. But they are everywhere on left wing organising because, I don't fully get it, but entryists just have so much time on their hands - both in terms of organising these front groups and also when they latch onto an existing left-wing group just grinding out everyone through procedure. I just want nothing to do with them - I disagree with them profoundly on so much and the way they operate.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 14, 2022, 07:50:34 PM
Yeah, they tried that with a group I was part of.

"We need a broad based popular movement, so we'll join this group that's moderately successful this moment and destroy it be creating pointless infighting and driving people out."
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 14, 2022, 08:57:10 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 14, 2022, 03:28:12 PMOn the USSR the saner defences I've seen say that to varying extents (if crazy as far as stalin at his worst, more moderately the actually not as bad as people think post stalin years) most of the bad shit about the Soviet union was just there as it was a nation under siege by reactionary powers, it never got a fair chance and had to do insert bad thing here because they had no choice,it was that or threaten any chance of communism.

That argument doesn't hold up very well at any time other than the Civil War and WWII.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 15, 2022, 06:57:25 AM
Get out with your USSR shit from the Finland & NATO thread! :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 08:06:30 AM
Utopian ideologies are horrible and destructive.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2022, 09:46:43 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 08:06:30 AMUtopian ideologies are horrible and destructive.

Right. "A more perfect union" my ass.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 15, 2022, 10:08:41 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

like I said: any excuse
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 15, 2022, 10:12:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

I've had a few Stalinist friends of friends that claimed that: "Yeah, Stalin did a few bad things, but it was necessary, and look at the US in whatever, they are much worse. Cuba has better health care now than at the revolution"
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:20:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:20:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.

I don't follow.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 15, 2022, 10:22:40 AM
The fuckers say yes, the Social Democrats go for Nato, we'll join! Tonight we celebrate!

:cheers:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:28:09 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:20:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.

I don't follow.

Not many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 15, 2022, 10:45:27 AM
Lots of people are evil. Abortion in the US, immigration, the war, both the western response and the Russian response, are just a few of the current issues where one side is outright evil and/or bloodthirsty.

The classical response and reaction to democracy is that they had to stop the vicious warmongering that democracy resulted in. Todays democratic
states have limits to the popular will for a reason.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:28:09 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:20:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2022, 04:48:47 PMThe Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.

I don't follow.

Not many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

If it helps you sleep at night.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 15, 2022, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:47:14 AMIf it helps you sleep at night.

Same to you my friend. Hope you sleep like a baby.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:56:21 AM
QuoteLots of people are evil. Abortion in the US, immigration, the war, both the western response and the Russian response, are just a few of the current issues where one side is outright evil and/or bloodthirsty.

The classical response and reaction to democracy is that they had to stop the vicious warmongering that democracy resulted in. Todays democratic
states have limits to the popular will for a reason.
Sure.
But the anti choice side in abortion for instance makes the excuse that it's about dead babies and god doesn't like people messing with his plan and all that sort of thing.
They aren't proposing evil laws specifically to cause bad things to happen. The women dying in back alley abortions is just a side effect they don't see as a priority in the slightest. Not a goal in itself.
And that's a right wing cause where you actually do sometimes to see causing harm to others as a goal in itself (though even there it's less about the harm and more their stupid zero sum world view meaning others suffering is good for them).

Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2022, 10:47:14 AM]

If it helps you sleep at night.

I've actually known a number of these people and spoken to them. Circles I am in often overlap.
Yours do not.

You should be smarter than swallowing the moustache twirling evil for evils sake simple version.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 15, 2022, 11:20:15 AM
QuoteSweden's ruling party, the Social Democrats, say they back the country joining Nato – this comes a few hours after its neighbour Finland said it planned to apply to join.


Taken from the Beeb.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Malthus on May 15, 2022, 11:30:23 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 15, 2022, 11:20:15 AM
QuoteSweden's ruling party, the Social Democrats, say they back the country joining Nato – this comes a few hours after its neighbour Finland said it planned to apply to join.


Taken from the Beeb.

Yup, just read that Sweden has officially said it would apply.

Another coup for Russian diplomacy! /s
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 11:33:19 AM
They say no to NATO bases though. Is this allowed or will it be a sticking point?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2022, 11:38:35 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:28:09 AMNot many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

The Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

Western left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 15, 2022, 11:53:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2022, 11:38:35 AMThe Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

You're shifting goal-posts here. The question was whether "[t]he Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda" or whether the counterpoint that "[y]es they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that" is.

If you're applying the murderous actions of the Khmer Rouge to understanding the thinking of Western Leftists, then most abandoned any support of the Khmer Rouge once solid evidence of the atrocities emerged.

As for the actions of the Khmer population in supporting and carrying out those atrocities, it is evidence that a totalitarian regime - through propaganda and violence - can enforce enthusiastic participation in atrocity by some proportion of the population, and compliance from a broad section of society. But this is not special property of the left or leftists, but of totalitarianism whether left or right (and of mob rule, whether left or right).

QuoteWestern left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

If you consider "change society so they don't accumulate a disproportionate share of wealth" to be "owning" (and thus equivalent with "cackling moustache twirling evil", which was the point in contention), then yes. Otherwise no. Also a point of order that corporations are - Mitch Romney notwithstanding - not people, so they don't really belong in this conversation at all.

On the cops thing, the left typically insists on accountability and curbing abuse of power. IMO that is far from "owning" and even further from "cackling moustache twirling evil."
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 15, 2022, 12:04:05 PM
Well, let's do a vote in Palestine to see if they want to murder all the jews in Israel? Or a vote in Hungary as to whether the Roma should exist? Or if we Swedes should kick out all immigrants?

Lots of evil to go around.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2022, 12:06:23 PM
I think you mean Mitt McConnell.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2022, 12:10:09 PM
@Jacob: I didn't shift any goal posts.  Squeeze responded to a comment about Stalinist apologists with a non-qualified statement.  He is free to clarify that his statement doesn't apply to the history of actual Communist regimes.

Re the rich, corporations and cops, my point stands.  Along with your watered down points comes a great deal of demonization.  And corporations are not humans, but the people who own them are.  So when lefties demonize corporations are they demonizing a piece of paper in a Delaware office or are they demonizing the shareholders and officers of corporations? 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on May 15, 2022, 12:12:49 PM
I think "kill them all" is a much more natural reaction than "thou shalt not kill".  It wouldn't surprise me that the more emotional people get about a certain issue, the more likely that sentiment is going to be on their minds. 

Civilization is an exercise of suppressing some of people's innate desires, and democracy is the highest level of civilization we know.  People who are unable to grasp the benefits of democracy are more like to also not grasp the negative policy implications of killing the "bad people".
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2022, 11:38:35 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 10:28:09 AMNot many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

The Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

Western left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

I can't say I've ever ran into any khmer rouge apologists. That whole time and place in history seems quite sadly a complete unknown all round.
It's notable that the khmer rogue were quite an aberration as Marxist regimes go. It's noteworthy their downfall finally came from picking a fight with the more classically Marxist and famous Vietnam. Add in the whole destruction of cities agriculturalist thing and I'd imagine they're not popular with stalinists.

However I'm sure the khmer rogue themselves even as they were putting babies on stakes didn't see themselves as the baddies and felt what they were doing a necessary evil to get going with their perfect refresh of Cambodia.
Cultists don't know they're cultists.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Razgovory on May 15, 2022, 01:08:43 PM
My statement about apologists for the Soviet Union was referring to when the Soviet Union still existed.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2022, 01:11:06 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 12:58:35 PMHowever I'm sure the khmer rogue themselves even as they were putting babies on stakes didn't see themselves as the baddies and felt what they were doing a necessary evil to get going with their perfect refresh of Cambodia.
Cultists don't know they're cultists.

This is the part I disagreed with.  Necessary evil.  Necessary yes, desireable yes, evil not so much.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 15, 2022, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 11:33:19 AMThey say no to NATO bases though. Is this allowed or will it be a sticking point?

The new NATO members in the east didn't have NATO bases for the longest time.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 15, 2022, 05:57:36 PM
Two fun little Twitter threads on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624?t=DC7Siv7dfhYbbABpnjeP4Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525922514173673472?t=hdwZ7Yfzg2qjS8dqfxCxRQ&s=19

... not ideal from a Russian perspective.


Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2022, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2022, 05:57:36 PMTwo fun little Twitter threads on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624?t=DC7Siv7dfhYbbABpnjeP4Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525922514173673472?t=hdwZ7Yfzg2qjS8dqfxCxRQ&s=19

... not ideal from a Russian perspective.



The stuff about Baltic subs is nonsense.  The Baltic Fleet has one Kilo class submarine for ASW training and zero combat subs.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 15, 2022, 06:35:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2022, 06:33:16 PMThe stuff about Baltic subs is nonsense.  The Baltic Fleet has one Kilo class submarine for ASW training and zero combat subs.

Oh.

Well thanks for clearing that up :)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: HVC on May 15, 2022, 06:36:35 PM
The second link assumes Sweden and Finland weren't already sharing intel with nato countries. Is that a valid assumption? grumbler?


Edit well I guess it's moot anyway lol
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 15, 2022, 07:50:07 PM
Quote from: Josquius on May 15, 2022, 11:33:19 AMThey say no to NATO bases though. Is this allowed or will it be a sticking point?

Bases aren't important at this stage, those can always be negotiated and discussed later. What is important are commitments to getting interoperability off the ground.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Razgovory on May 15, 2022, 08:38:17 PM
Also that guy who used to post here.  The one who wanted to fuck a lizardman.  He'd be an invaluable military asset.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on May 16, 2022, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2022, 11:53:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2022, 11:38:35 AMThe Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

You're shifting goal-posts here. The question was whether "[t]he Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda" or whether the counterpoint that "[y]es they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that" is.

If you're applying the murderous actions of the Khmer Rouge to understanding the thinking of Western Leftists, then most abandoned any support of the Khmer Rouge once solid evidence of the atrocities emerged.

As for the actions of the Khmer population in supporting and carrying out those atrocities, it is evidence that a totalitarian regime - through propaganda and violence - can enforce enthusiastic participation in atrocity by some proportion of the population, and compliance from a broad section of society. But this is not special property of the left or leftists, but of totalitarianism whether left or right (and of mob rule, whether left or right).

QuoteWestern left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

If you consider "change society so they don't accumulate a disproportionate share of wealth" to be "owning" (and thus equivalent with "cackling moustache twirling evil", which was the point in contention), then yes. Otherwise no. Also a point of order that corporations are - Mitch Romney notwithstanding - not people, so they don't really belong in this conversation at all.

On the cops thing, the left typically insists on accountability and curbing abuse of power. IMO that is far from "owning" and even further from "cackling moustache twirling evil."

I am afraid it is not just mitt Romney. Unfortunately the United States Supreme Court essentially granted that status when it said a corporation has a freedom of religion. It's nuts of course but that is where the US is right now.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 16, 2022, 01:25:57 PM
I'm sure it'll come as a great relief to our Nordic siblings - Denmark, Norway, and Iceland have extended security guarantees, including potential military action, to Sweden and Finland while they wait to join NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 01:28:05 PM
Well, the Nordic countries alone would be enough, so that's nice.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 16, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
It also sounds like Turkey has walked back their objections to Finland and Sweden joining. Not sure if there were concessions involved, whether arms were twisted, or whether the initial objection was primarily a matter of domestic Turkish politics and served its purpose already.

In any case, it seems okay.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on May 16, 2022, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 16, 2022, 01:28:51 PMIt also sounds like Turkey has walked back their objections to Finland and Sweden joining. Not sure if there were concessions involved, whether arms were twisted, or whether the initial objection was primarily a matter of domestic Turkish politics and served its purpose already.

In any case, it seems okay.
Where are you getting this?  I'm getting the opposite on Google News and Twitter:  Erdogan's no is a hard no.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 16, 2022, 03:15:49 PM
From the Turkish government's translation - this doesn't sound hard, but very transactional:
QuoteRepublic of Türkiye Directorate of Communications
@Communications
Organisation du gouvernement - Turquie
President @RTErdogan:

"(Sweden and Finland's applications for NATO membership) It is not a matter of discussion as both countries do not take a clear-cut stance against terrorist organizations."
President @RTErdogan:

"(Meeting with the delegations from Finland and Sweden) They are going to come to Türkiye on Monday. Will they come to convince us? If so, take no offense but they should not tire themselves out."
President @RTErdogan:

"First of all, we would not say 'yes' to those seeking to join NATO, a security organization, as they have been imposing sanctions on Türkiye during this process."

List the PKK as terrorists and lift the arms sanctions on Turkey to get him to yes, by the sounds of it.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 03:20:34 PM
Well, the Turks have a point. We should not join an alliance to whose members we refuse to sell weapons, that shit has to stop. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed beforehand.

The PKK are already listed as terrorists.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 16, 2022, 03:54:15 PM
Alternatively you could 'give' the Turks what they want to get what you want, and then afterwards not give them what they want. Basically take one out of Erdogan's playbook.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 16, 2022, 04:03:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 16, 2022, 03:09:23 PMWhere are you getting this?  I'm getting the opposite on Google News and Twitter:  Erdogan's no is a hard no.

It was part of my morning news round up... but before Erdogan reiterated. So maybe it's a hard no after all. We'll see.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 16, 2022, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 16, 2022, 03:15:49 PMFrom the Turkish government's translation - this doesn't sound hard, but very transactional:

Late milking yeah. Plus they want some stuff from the Americans.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2022, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 03:20:34 PMWell, the Turks have a point. We should not join an alliance to whose members we refuse to sell weapons, that shit has to stop. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed beforehand.

I don't see a connection between those at all.  You join an alliance because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing it, and you sell arms because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing that.  Those costs and benefits are independent.  You can sell arms to countries you are not allied with, and ally with countries you don't sell arms to. 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 05:50:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2022, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 03:20:34 PMWell, the Turks have a point. We should not join an alliance to whose members we refuse to sell weapons, that shit has to stop. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed beforehand.

I don't see a connection between those at all.  You join an alliance because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing it, and you sell arms because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing that.  Those costs and benefits are independent.  You can sell arms to countries you are not allied with, and ally with countries you don't sell arms to. 

Well, I'll guess we'll have to disagree there, I find it bad manners to expect someone to aid you militarily whilst you have them under a weapons embargo.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2022, 07:53:50 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 05:50:50 PMWell, I'll guess we'll have to disagree there, I find it bad manners to expect someone to aid you militarily whilst you have them under a weapons embargo.

National interests do not require good manners.  In fact, I think that it would be moronic to act against your own nation's interests because you got your feelings hurt. 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Razgovory on May 16, 2022, 08:34:21 PM
It may be moronic, but it is also extremely common.  There's a reason we call being polite "Being diplomatic".
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 17, 2022, 01:24:13 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2022, 07:53:50 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 16, 2022, 05:50:50 PMWell, I'll guess we'll have to disagree there, I find it bad manners to expect someone to aid you militarily whilst you have them under a weapons embargo.

National interests do not require good manners.  In fact, I think that it would be moronic to act against your own nation's interests because you got your feelings hurt. 

National interests do not require good manners, but diplomacy does. It's bad optics. We are exporting weapons to all kinds of unsavoury states in the Gulf, but not to Turkey and that might look like we are taking sides with the kurds. Which is reasonable due to historical shenanigans where we sided with the kurds in the 80's.

Now, if Erdogan wants a conflict then he can easily manufacture one and be able to actually point to reasonable causes. If a competent Swedish foreign service had brought this up beforehand the reasonable part could have been removed and Erdogan would have had a bigger hurdle to jump over before fucking us over.

Edit: Sweden should have quietly dropped any embargoes on nay Nato country claiming security concerns over Russia thereby disarming Erdogan.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 17, 2022, 07:06:57 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 16, 2022, 04:03:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 16, 2022, 03:09:23 PMWhere are you getting this?  I'm getting the opposite on Google News and Twitter:  Erdogan's no is a hard no.

It was part of my morning news round up... but before Erdogan reiterated. So maybe it's a hard no after all. We'll see.
They've been flip flopping daily on this for the last week
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Gups on May 17, 2022, 07:15:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 15, 2022, 08:38:17 PMAlso that guy who used to post here.  The one who wanted to fuck a lizardman.

You're going to have to narrow it down a bit.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on May 17, 2022, 07:18:52 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 17, 2022, 07:15:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 15, 2022, 08:38:17 PMAlso that guy who used to post here.  The one who wanted to fuck a lizardman.

You're going to have to narrow it down a bit.

Considering its Sweden and Finland, it has to be either Slargos, Hortlund, or that serial-killer-in-the-making Finnish guy in a mask, Oglekvinde or something.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 17, 2022, 07:29:43 AM
Yes. Oglekville rings a bell for that.
I imagine he and the confederate weeb are off happily living together.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on May 17, 2022, 07:39:43 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 17, 2022, 07:29:43 AMYes. Oglekville rings a bell for that.
I imagine he and the confederate weeb are off happily living together.

Last I heard Lettow fulfilled his life's ambition getting a japanese wife and living off her family.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2022, 08:47:49 AM
Finnish parliament has officially voted to apply for NATO membership, 188 to 8.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on May 17, 2022, 09:53:31 AM
:cheers:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 26, 2022, 11:32:26 AM
The Finnish PM is in Kænugarði.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTr3ebvWIAE_w4h?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Probably brought along some extra weapon guarantees although the Finns have been pretty tight-lipped about what they're sending.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 26, 2022, 12:51:02 PM
Is that their daughter?   :sleep:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 27, 2022, 03:52:22 AM
Finnish PM visiting Bucha.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTq-6GMXoAESXpo.jpg)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 29, 2022, 03:51:10 PM
Damn, that's a moment to feel the full weight of her office, to see what could happen to her people if she fucks up.

Impressive woman that, not even 40 and leading her country in a difficult time onto new paths. I envy Finland their leadership at times like this.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 30, 2022, 04:08:53 AM
Yeah, she's had every possible shitty thing happening while she's been in office. First the pandemic and now this war. And of course right-wing old men trying to topple her government every chance they get.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 30, 2022, 04:46:45 AM
Sweden has lifted their ban on selling arms to Turkey.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on May 30, 2022, 04:57:43 AM
Yippiee, we are finally growing up and stepping down from the high horse. :yeah:

Also on Marin  :wub: :

(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aqGpb6M_700bwp.webp)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on May 30, 2022, 09:47:20 AM
Can we just have them both in NATO like now.

That way we get to see Putin/Russia throth a lot and before Western military help helps decisively tip the battlefield momentum in Ukraine's favour, which no doubt will cause all sorts of extra throthing about a nuclear apocalypse etc.

I basically want two seperate episodes of Russia going mental, hopefully ramping up Putin's blood pressure to dangerous levels for a much longer time.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 11:12:36 AM
The Swedish government appears determined to get a "no" from NATO. Digging in on Turkish issues.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on June 07, 2022, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 11:12:36 AMThe Swedish government appears determined to get a "no" from NATO. Digging in on Turkish issues.

How so? Unwilling to throw Kurds under the bus or pretend Erdogan is not a autocrat?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 07, 2022, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 11:12:36 AMThe Swedish government appears determined to get a "no" from NATO. Digging in on Turkish issues.

How so? Unwilling to throw Kurds under the bus or pretend Erdogan is not a autocrat?

To defeat a vote of no confidence against a minister they made a deal with an MP from Kurdistan that includes various matters of support for Kurdish movements etc.

It remains unclear why the opposition wanted to sabotage the NATO application. Maybe time will tell.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on June 07, 2022, 01:07:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 07, 2022, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 11:12:36 AMThe Swedish government appears determined to get a "no" from NATO. Digging in on Turkish issues.

How so? Unwilling to throw Kurds under the bus or pretend Erdogan is not a autocrat?

To defeat a vote of no confidence against a minister they made a deal with an MP from Kurdistan that includes various matters of support for Kurdish movements etc.

It remains unclear why the opposition wanted to sabotage the NATO application. Maybe time will tell.

So if I understand your perspective correctly:

The opposition decided to try to bring the justice minister down (which essentially would bring the government down). To survive, the government needed to rely on independent MP Ms. Kakabaveh, whom the Turkish government wants extradited for her time in an Iranian based Kurdish militia.

If the opposition had not pressed for a confidence vote, the government would've had more room to maneouvre re: Ms. Kakabaveh and the whole thing would've been lower profile. Thus, the opposition's actions jeopardizes Swedish NATO application because it seems designed to rile up Turkey as much as possible.

Is that correct?

Though in theory, if the opposition had triggered an election they could - in theory - have campaigned on more pro-Turkish, anti-Kurdish notes and if they won could've sweetened Erdogan sufficiently.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on June 07, 2022, 02:57:23 PM
Very few voters in Sweden sympathises with Erdogan and the Turks, to campaign on that would be stupid.

What this shows is that the Social Democrats are the only adults in the room, for fucks sake what a clusterfuck the opposition is. Totally unsuitable for government.

They painted the Social Democrats into a corner where the only solution for the government was a deal with Ms. Kakabaveh. They seemingly tried a last minute deal where the justice minister goes voluntarily, but apparently no go. So now, in this sensitive national security situation they were forced to do something that is not good for the nation.

This does not shine a good light on the opposition, risking national security to play silly political games. There's an election in three months, so it would only be symbolical.

The good interpretation is that they are too stupid to see the consequences, the bad that they are egotistical psychopaths out of sync with the times and the mood.

Either way it's at least +1 vote from me for the Social Democrats, I'll only have to shower afterwards.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on June 07, 2022, 03:17:11 PM
Quote from: Threviel on June 07, 2022, 02:57:23 PMVery few voters in Sweden sympathises with Erdogan and the Turks, to campaign on that would be stupid.

What this shows is that the Social Democrats are the only adults in the room, for fucks sake what a clusterfuck the opposition is. Totally unsuitable for government.

They painted the Social Democrats into a corner where the only solution for the government was a deal with Ms. Kakabaveh. They seemingly tried a last minute deal where the justice minister goes voluntarily, but apparently no go. So now, in this sensitive national security situation they were forced to do something that is not good for the nation.

This does not shine a good light on the opposition, risking national security to play silly political games. There's an election in three months, so it would only be symbolical.

The good interpretation is that they are too stupid to see the consequences, the bad that they are egotistical psychopaths out of sync with the times and the mood.

Either way it's at least +1 vote from me for the Social Democrats, I'll only have to shower afterwards.

Okay, so I really don't follow Swedish politics, but how does the government of the day making a bad deal with a lone MP reflect badly on the opposition?  Sounds like the Social Democrats were trying the following strategy (shown here in meme form)?

(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blazing_saddles_hostage.png)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 03:18:48 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 07, 2022, 01:07:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 07, 2022, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 11:12:36 AMThe Swedish government appears determined to get a "no" from NATO. Digging in on Turkish issues.

How so? Unwilling to throw Kurds under the bus or pretend Erdogan is not a autocrat?

To defeat a vote of no confidence against a minister they made a deal with an MP from Kurdistan that includes various matters of support for Kurdish movements etc.

It remains unclear why the opposition wanted to sabotage the NATO application. Maybe time will tell.

So if I understand your perspective correctly:

The opposition decided to try to bring the justice minister down (which essentially would bring the government down). To survive, the government needed to rely on independent MP Ms. Kakabaveh, whom the Turkish government wants extradited for her time in an Iranian based Kurdish militia.

If the opposition had not pressed for a confidence vote, the government would've had more room to maneouvre re: Ms. Kakabaveh and the whole thing would've been lower profile. Thus, the opposition's actions jeopardizes Swedish NATO application because it seems designed to rile up Turkey as much as possible.

Is that correct?

Though in theory, if the opposition had triggered an election they could - in theory - have campaigned on more pro-Turkish, anti-Kurdish notes and if they won could've sweetened Erdogan sufficiently.

Basically. The government chose to make the minister question a matter of stay or go for the whole government. They could have dropped the minister quietly or otherwise without bringing down the entire government.

The opposition decided that with a Swedish NATO application being in a sensitive phase, rocking the boat in a way that risked making a single pro-Kurd MP a kingmaker was a good idea. Of course the opposition says that the government should have acted the way the opposition wanted them to act, and not this way, but boohoo.

From my perspective both the government and the opposition have been weak here. If the Social Dems weren't comfortable with getting into bed with Turkey then why did they apply for NATO membership in the first place? And if it was so bad then Sweden could have just agreed to enough of Turkey's demands to get in and then wiped our ass with the deal once we were in NATO. It's politics. What would Turkey do? Kick us out? And if the opposition thought that NATO membership was important, then why did they play domestic games that risked it?

There likely wouldn't have been a new election if the vote carried AFAIK. The opposition were fine with the government, just not with that minister. And there's a general election in September.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on June 07, 2022, 04:07:21 PM
So who actually is getting the blame?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2022, 04:18:47 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 07, 2022, 04:07:21 PMSo who actually is getting the blame?

The opposition looks the most like clowns, at least.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on June 09, 2022, 01:30:17 PM
How is Finland's NATO application process going? I assume things are moving along nicely? That is the important one, Sweden doesn't matter that much.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on June 10, 2022, 04:34:22 AM
Finland kinda tied itself to Sweden on the matter. :(

Also, Erdogan demanded that the Finnish government "deal with" the national broadcasting company Yle, because they did an interview with some Kurd leader. I guess dictators really cannot imagine independent media that the government does not interfere with.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2022, 04:50:52 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 10, 2022, 04:34:22 AMFinland kinda tied itself to Sweden on the matter. :(

:hmm: Odd. Finns are usually sensible.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on June 11, 2022, 02:52:32 AM
We had to hold Sweden's hand and drag them along into submitting a NATO application, so it would be weird to let go now.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on June 28, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
Looks like the summit went well.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Grey Fox on June 28, 2022, 01:32:36 PM
Sounds like Turkey got something and SweFin are in.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on June 28, 2022, 01:35:24 PM
Yep.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWW-XW9XgAcg9AS?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Zanza on June 28, 2022, 02:20:21 PM
Everybody looks so happy ... not.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on June 28, 2022, 05:50:16 PM
That's good news :cheers:

Wonder what concessions Turkey got for removing their veto. I suppose we'll find out soon enough as I think Erdogan is after PR victories in this.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on June 28, 2022, 05:59:28 PM
QuoteRagıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
Here are the things Turkey got:
• Sweden/Finland will lift its arms embargo
• Both will support Turkey on PKK, stop support to YPG
• They will amend their laws on terrorism
• They will share Intel with each other
• They will extradite terror suspects
• Finland and Sweden will support Turkey's participation to EU's Pesko
• Turkey, Finland and Sweden will establish a permanent joint mechanism to consult on justice, security and intelligence

There's a trilateral agreement on it. Unclear if it actually means anything (particularly for Finland) or is just re-stating the current position or a big success for Erdogan - that lack of clarity itself suggests it's probably quite a smart solution :lol:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on June 28, 2022, 06:45:08 PM

This is all fairly conveniently vague or would have been de facto given NATO membership. Smile, nod, take the deal. Tomorrow is another day.

Erdo even got a win to take home.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 28, 2022, 09:05:48 PM
Has the quid pro quo been mentioned yet?  Heard on NPR that Finland and Sweden agreed to extradite people Turkey considers terrorists.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on June 28, 2022, 09:44:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 28, 2022, 09:05:48 PMHas the quid pro quo been mentioned yet?  Heard on NPR that Finland and Sweden agreed to extradite people Turkey considers terrorists.

Post #224, courtesy of Sheilbh
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2022, 11:00:12 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 28, 2022, 09:05:48 PMHas the quid pro quo been mentioned yet?  Heard on NPR that Finland and Sweden agreed to extradite people Turkey considers terrorists.
That could very easily mean nothing at all though.

I mean, I am sure both of them already have extradition agreements for terrorists. The moment you convince us we have <insert relevant legal criteria for extradition> terrorists here, we of course would extradite them!
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on June 29, 2022, 03:38:52 AM
Our sources say that Finland will still continue to consider who is a terrorist by its own definition, so Turkey won't be able to just point at someone and demand extradition.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on June 29, 2022, 03:59:30 AM
I presume that the terrorist thing is just optics and the real price for Turkey was in the F-16 discussions with the US.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on June 29, 2022, 05:53:41 AM
It seems that Turkey has already asked for 33 extraditions to Sweden and Finland. They had their shopping list ready...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on June 29, 2022, 06:46:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2022, 05:53:41 AMIt seems that Turkey has already asked for 33 extraditions to Sweden and Finland. They had their shopping list ready...

All we have to do is delay until they formally accept us in their parliament. Then we can delay forever.

Or send them to Turkey if they are terrorists, I don't support Sweden as a terrorist haven.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on June 30, 2022, 04:29:02 AM
There are rumours that Turkey might be interested in Gripen. The US does not sell them any planes and they have an obsolescent air force, Gripen would be an acceptable alternative.

Previous embargo that was not an embargo made it impossible, but now it seems like an option.

I think the US has more or less a veto on Gripen sales, lots of US components so I don't really see it happening.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 30, 2022, 08:35:18 AM
News today said Turks reached a deal with the US on sexed up F-16s.
Just need to get through Congress . . .
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on June 30, 2022, 08:37:10 AM
Yup, that's it then, we have the answer of what the turks were after.

Weird that a country named for a bird can't build their own fighters.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 30, 2022, 08:40:38 AM
Not too shabby building drones though.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: celedhring on June 30, 2022, 08:43:27 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 30, 2022, 08:37:10 AMYup, that's it then, we have the answer of what the turks were after.

Weird that a country named for a bird can't build their own fighters.

Turkeys can't fly much, though.

Nonetheless, they seem to do fine with drones.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on June 30, 2022, 09:03:05 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 30, 2022, 08:43:27 AMTurkeys can't fly much, though.

As Arthur Carlson found out, to his horror.

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on June 30, 2022, 11:32:35 AM
More NATO than other news but despite worries it cause a fight UK is going to increase its defence budget by 25% up to 2.5% as the new target. Which is a good decision - also sounds like more commitments to NATO, particularly increasing current presence in Estonia.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on July 01, 2022, 08:26:10 AM
Apparently Erdogan is demanding that we extradite 73 "terrorists" to Turkey. Swedish authorities have received a list of 33 people so far. On that list are some genuine terrorist suspects, but also a few publishers, accused of publishing anti-Erdogan stuff. Probably also a few Swedish citizens.

A few of them have already had extradition denied. Sweden does not extradite people for stuff that isn't illegal in Sweden (within reason I assume, lots of possible gray zones there) and since publishing books isn't illegal in Sweden extradition was denied. A few others denied for lack of proof and stuff like that.

Sweden will not extradite obvious innocents or Swedish citizens, that's far beyond the pale and will not happen. Erdogan promises to veto formal acceptance of Sweden until they are extradited.

In my mind he behaves stupid. He won, the US, Sweden and Finland have already kow-towed before him. Any possible gains are already gained and this is a step to far and he demands stuff that he must know he will not get. What this on the other hand does is single out Sweden, Finland will probably be accepted (I assume).

Now our retard government has behaved stupidly and antagonized Turkey before all this Ukraine stuff. The government relying on a Kurdish parliamentarian to stay in power and because of that have been supporting the kurds in a, well, unnecessary and naive way. So Erdogan had a good point, but now he's already won, I fail to see what will gain from this grandstanding.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AM
I do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

Now we are trying to make it do some other things, and the global situation is radically different. 

I know we have to keep it because there isn't a better alternative, but it really is creaking pretty badly at times.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on July 01, 2022, 08:43:18 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AMI do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

Now we are trying to make it do some other things, and the global situation is radically different.

I know we have to keep it because there isn't a better alternative, but it really is creaking pretty badly at times.

FWIW the core mission is in focus now in a way it hasn't been for 30 years.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on July 01, 2022, 08:45:56 AM
From Sweden's perspective the top priority should be to get Finland into NATO. If NATO doesn't want Sweden to join then fine we won't join. But it is imperative that Finland join NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on July 01, 2022, 09:30:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 01, 2022, 08:43:18 AMFWIW the core mission is in focus now in a way it hasn't been for 30 years.
I agree. Also I think one of the interesting things has been the involvement of non-NATO/core partners who don't really have an interest but understand that NATO has this core mission but also a wider focus.

For example I think Japan and Australia have done more than anyone could reasonably expect on sanctions but also sending aid. There was an article today about Ukrainian personnel being trained in the UK with the UK forces - but also New Zealand forces.

I don't think NATO's been more relevant to its core purpose at any time since the cold war - or that it's mattered more to other partners outside NATO's area than ever.

QuoteNow our retard government has behaved stupidly and antagonized Turkey before all this Ukraine stuff. The government relying on a Kurdish parliamentarian to stay in power and because of that have been supporting the kurds in a, well, unnecessary and naive way. So Erdogan had a good point, but now he's already won, I fail to see what will gain from this grandstanding.
Also the deal is done.

I suspect the grandstanding is because Turkey has general elections next year. Erdogan's approval ratings aren't great, the parliamentary polls look really bad for AKP (they're still first but their coalition partner is below the threshold, while the opposition parties are on enough to form a coalition) and he's trailing the leading candidates for the presidential election (at the second round).

There's lots of problems with the economy so a bit of foreign policy grandstanding is probably quite helpful right now.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on July 01, 2022, 10:38:59 AM
The deal may be done, but to trigger the ascensions don't they have to be ratified by the various national governments? So Erdogan can still, presumably, throw a wrench in things by making Turkish parliament vote "no"?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on July 01, 2022, 11:44:18 AM
Yeah, that's what he said. It won't go before the Turkish parliament until he gets what he want. In effect a new veto in the next step.

Internal politics wise it seems like a mistake, he won't win this so won't be able to spin it as a win. What was already agreed was already a hige win and he risks that.

But I agree, he's playing to an internal audience.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on July 01, 2022, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AMI do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

Now we are trying to make it do some other things, and the global situation is radically different.

I know we have to keep it because there isn't a better alternative, but it really is creaking pretty badly at times.

A joke post?
As this view though legit for the past 20+ years, in recent months....
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 01, 2022, 03:23:56 PM
NATO does nothing to keep gas prices down, or solve the CRISIS on the BORDER, and worst of all, it has taken no action on the single most important international security issue facing the globe in the 21st century - Hunter Biden's laptop.

Ditch it.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on July 02, 2022, 05:53:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AMI do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

If it is designed with that in mind it seems like a good thing to keep around.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on July 02, 2022, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2022, 05:53:50 PMIf it is designed with that in mind it seems like a good thing to keep around.

Yeah, if Brown Russia is trying to rebuild the empire of the USSR through force, then that's almost a perfect match for NATO's original mission.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on July 09, 2022, 03:49:05 PM
Just the Finnish Prime Minister at a rock festival.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXPM4blWQAARt7H?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on July 09, 2022, 05:02:23 PM
 :perv:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Zoupa on July 09, 2022, 09:05:04 PM
 :wub:  :worthy:  :wub:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Syt on July 15, 2022, 12:53:21 AM
(https://preview.redd.it/j3sl338dmjb91.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=607c459f67531f69f7bc1a04db2ea38d049fd44b)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on July 15, 2022, 01:33:24 AM
Ah. But who really is the puppet, and who is the master?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on August 04, 2022, 04:02:39 AM
Italy managed to ratify NATO membership for Finland and Sweden despite the government collapse.

With 23 votes done, the remaining countries are Spain, Greece, Portugal, Slovakia, Czechia, Turkey, and Hungary.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on August 04, 2022, 07:36:17 AM
Portugal won't be a problem, only communists go for the NATO = Evil route.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 04, 2022, 09:11:55 AM
Accession passed 95-1 in the US Senate with only insurrectionist chickenshit Josh Hawley voting against and FSB Colonel Rand Paul voting "present"

Hawley is a piece of work.  Even fellow MAGA shit heel Tom Cotton couldn't hide his contempt.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on August 04, 2022, 09:14:26 AM
Hawley is running the Cruz playbook--get attention by meaninglessly pissing everyone off periodically and leverage that into a higher profile.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on August 04, 2022, 10:55:05 AM
Is Hungary expected to veto?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on August 05, 2022, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 04, 2022, 10:55:05 AMIs Hungary expected to veto?


No mention of it in Hungarian politics yet. I wouldn't put it past Orban to copy Erdogans playbook and try to get something for letting it happen, he is in desperate need of cash. He could possibly tető trade the greenlighting of EU funds for it.

Equally likely though he may want to avoid opening one more front with the countries his realm's stability depends on and will just approve it promptly.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on August 08, 2022, 11:47:44 AM
Denmark, Sweden, and Norway has just announced an agreement to coordinate more closely - sharing access to military infrastructure (in particular radar and other airspace tracking), as well as to co-ordinate patrols. Potentially there are other areas of "close coordination" that have not been fully announced at this point in time.

This is specifically directed at Russian aggression since the start of the war on Ukraine.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on August 08, 2022, 12:09:43 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 08, 2022, 11:47:44 AMDenmark, Sweden, and Norway has just announced an agreement to coordinate more closely - sharing access to military infrastructure (in particular radar and other airspace tracking), as well as to co-ordinate patrols. Potentially there are other areas of "close coordination" that have not been fully announced at this point in time.

This is specifically directed at Russian aggression since the start of the war on Ukraine.

Russia is bringing the Kalmar Union back together.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on August 20, 2022, 09:28:01 AM
Finland's latest political scandal is... our PM being filmed at a private party dancing while drunk, with the video leaked to the tabloid press. Obviously, all the conservative boomers here cannot stomach the thought of a young female politician having fun on a weekend. Trevor Noah talks about it here at the 7 minute mark: https://youtu.be/adi0WETopik?t=420

We don't quite get up to the level of American political scandals.  :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on August 20, 2022, 10:22:50 AM
Is this going to end up having an impact?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on August 20, 2022, 11:13:53 AM
Is there a genuine outcry, or is it just a fifth column of useful idiots organizing a spontaneous outrage?  I know Finns have a reputation for being a little reserved, but surely convulsing a little or looking at other people's shoes shouldn't make Finns ask for a drug test.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on August 20, 2022, 11:22:19 AM
I think footage of a Finn enjoying a social situation is definitely news and, no doubt, rather damaging. A bit like if someone had candid footage of Pedro Sanchez eating dinner a 5.30 :o
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on August 20, 2022, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 20, 2022, 11:22:19 AMI think footage of a Finn enjoying a social situation is definitely news and, no doubt, rather damaging. A bit like if someone had candid footage of Pedro Sanchez eating dinner a 5.30 :o

:lol:

It does put into context why they would insist it's drugs and not just assume alcohol.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on August 20, 2022, 02:24:10 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 20, 2022, 11:22:19 AMI think footage of a Finn enjoying a social situation is definitely news and, no doubt, rather damaging. A bit like if someone had candid footage of Pedro Sanchez eating dinner a 5.30 :o

Yeah the incident has sent shockwaves through Finnish society but her voluntary drug test and sincere insistence on merely being very drunk has calmed the national mood considerably. :sleep:   
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on August 20, 2022, 03:40:09 PM
Sounds like manufactured outrage by political opponents. I don't think anyone thinks that politicians enjoying a party is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Malthus on August 20, 2022, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 20, 2022, 11:22:19 AMI think footage of a Finn enjoying a social situation is definitely news and, no doubt, rather damaging. A bit like if someone had candid footage of Pedro Sanchez eating dinner a 5.30 :o

A Finn not acting depressed? That damages the national stereotype and cannot be allowed!  :mad:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on August 21, 2022, 12:48:10 AM
As mentioned, this is mostly shocking to conservative boomers (and others with such mindset). And even the drug allegations originated from a troll website (Ylilauta, the Finnish version of 4chan), and the mainstream media stupidly picked it up. So it only ended up damaging the image of the media. Also, the Polish PM has defended Marin's right to party, saying that she should be happy because her country is joining NATO.  :D
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on August 21, 2022, 01:29:12 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 20, 2022, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 20, 2022, 11:22:19 AMI think footage of a Finn enjoying a social situation is definitely news and, no doubt, rather damaging. A bit like if someone had candid footage of Pedro Sanchez eating dinner a 5.30 :o

A Finn not acting depressed? That damages the national stereotype and cannot be allowed!  :mad:

We will know it is the end times when a video of the Italian president putting pineapple om a pizza is leaked.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on August 21, 2022, 06:18:04 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 20, 2022, 03:40:09 PMSounds like manufactured outrage by political opponents. I don't think anyone thinks that politicians enjoying a party is a bad thing.

Finnish political scandals are very strange. She only got her job due to her predecessor resigning because of some kerfuffle over a....post office strike.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on September 07, 2022, 07:58:54 AM
Finnish political scandal of the week: our PM was given marshmallows by another person.

https://twitter.com/geshtin_karanu/status/1567218972965085184?t=AM8i59WDIqN9ZYYZa0UnBQ&s=19
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on September 07, 2022, 08:01:26 AM
Who is likely to be the next PM?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: HVC on September 07, 2022, 11:12:08 AM
Were their scandals always this dumb, or is this because they have a female PM now?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on September 07, 2022, 11:30:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2022, 08:01:26 AMWho is likely to be the next PM?

The National Coalition Party (counterpart to Swedish Moderaterna) is currently leading the polls. Elections are next spring so we'll see if they can keep the lead.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on September 07, 2022, 11:31:29 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 07, 2022, 11:12:08 AMWere their scandals always this dumb, or is this because they have a female PM now?

The latter (and she's also leftist). Our female PM gets criticized by right-wing conservatives for basically just existing.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on September 07, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
Having a female leader is bad enough, but a young one who never went uphill both ways in the snow to school? Who grew up coddled in the decadent leftist west? Who never once was savagely beaten by her parents until she behaved herself? Teh horrah!

Of course being Finnish she probably skied up hill both ways in the snow to school.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on September 07, 2022, 01:02:56 PM
Yeah its ridiculous just how much more shit women have to put up with.

For example, I have acquired a list of macro economics/stock market kind of people to follow on Twitter over the last year or so. And I noticed that the one female among them gets more savage comments than any of the men. Like, the guys also get their share of snark comments and whatnot, but pure hostility I have only seen in replies to this one gal, and it is entirely unwarranted.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AM
At this point I think that Sweden should withdraw its NATO application. Tell NATO that we're here when they have figured their shit out, but for now enough is enough. It's obvious that NATO doesn't want Sweden to join right now, and desperately sucking up to Turkey is not a great look. The government's inept handling of things also hurts Sweden as a society, since they want to curb private expression of opinion in Sweden to placate Turkey.

Also, even if increased US pressure on Turkey possibly may bring about some improvement in NATO's position, the dominant power of the alliance leaning on a member to support the interest of a non-member is not a great look. More ominously it would mean that every member's veto isn't actually considered important by the US, which would make NATO more risky to join.

The critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tonitrus on January 16, 2023, 04:22:04 AM
Almost seems like it would be easier to start a new treaty organization, exclude Turkey/Hungary, and then leave NATO.

Just throw together a quick little summit, sign some mutual defense treaties and call it a day.

Lose the geographic restrictions at the same time and get Japan, Australia, and the rest in too.

 
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on January 16, 2023, 04:37:30 AM
Yeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.

Make it a requirement to be a democratic state ruled by law so that no new Hungary's can come from the inside.

Long term get Japan, Korea, Republic of China and perhaps even India into the alliance, makes China practically untouchable by the commies.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: DGuller on January 16, 2023, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: Threviel on January 16, 2023, 04:37:30 AMYeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.

Make it a requirement to be a democratic state ruled by law so that no new Hungary's can come from the inside.

Long term get Japan, Korea, Republic of China and perhaps even India into the alliance, makes China practically untouchable by the commies.
Didn't NATO always exclude colonial wars?  Quite a few NATO members were attacked in their colonies during that time.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on January 16, 2023, 05:41:29 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 16, 2023, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: Threviel on January 16, 2023, 04:37:30 AMYeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.
Didn't NATO always exclude colonial wars?  Quite a few NATO members were attacked in their colonies during that time.

Yeah, that's what I said.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on January 16, 2023, 06:42:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AMThe critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Finland, unfortunately, has tied itself to Sweden on this.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 06:50:36 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 16, 2023, 06:42:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AMThe critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Finland, unfortunately, has tied itself to Sweden on this.


Is the reasoning that Finland is safer outside of NATO if Sweden isn't in it?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on January 16, 2023, 07:26:39 AM
How would NATO work if in a ridiculous theoretical Sweden is attacked, and via the bilateral treaty the UK sends troops to help, and then the attacker destroys British infrastructure  ?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on January 16, 2023, 11:28:52 AM
Quote from: Threviel on January 16, 2023, 04:37:30 AMYeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.

Make it a requirement to be a democratic state ruled by law so that no new Hungary's can come from the inside.

Long term get Japan, Korea, Republic of China and perhaps even India into the alliance, makes China practically untouchable by the commies.

Fuck India.

I mean I understand the impulse - hey it's a large sort-of democratic state that can be a counter-weight to communist China!  Swinging India into the western alignment has been a goal of the west for a couple of decades.

But India refuses to quit Russia, continues to see itself in the non-aligned movement.  Perhaps it's due to the lingering US alliance with Pakistan.  But in any case - fuck them (or at least their government).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on January 16, 2023, 11:36:45 AM
I agree that, so long as Indian voters will elect guys like Modious, you don't want to hitch your wagon to India.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on January 16, 2023, 12:23:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 16, 2023, 11:28:52 AMFuck India.

I mean I understand the impulse - hey it's a large sort-of democratic state that can be a counter-weight to communist China!  Swinging India into the western alignment has been a goal of the west for a couple of decades.

But India refuses to quit Russia, continues to see itself in the non-aligned movement.  Perhaps it's due to the lingering US alliance with Pakistan.  But in any case - fuck them (or at least their government).
Yeah India doesn't want to be swung into anyone else's alliance. It's deep to the core non-aligned and it's one of the relatively few holdovers of Nehru's India. I think there is a genuine view in Delhi that resist and is opposed to alliance systems as locking the world into conflict. It is real non-alignment as a core part of their foreign policy outlook.

Russia's a historic friend though India's not super-keen on the invasion. I think India will work with the US and the Western alliance (like the Quad) against China but I don't think it'll ever be willing to join an alliance on one side or the other.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Barrister on January 16, 2023, 01:36:56 PM
This forum can be funny.  I thought I was giving an edgy take, only to have grumbles and Sheilbh agree with me.

Whereas other times I think I'm saying something very boring and mainstream only to have people jump all over me.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: HVC on January 16, 2023, 01:47:00 PM
Your "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on January 16, 2023, 02:11:18 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 16, 2023, 01:47:00 PMYour "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons :P
I'm not saying India sucks :o :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: HVC on January 16, 2023, 02:14:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 16, 2023, 02:11:18 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 16, 2023, 01:47:00 PMYour "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons :P
I'm not saying India sucks :o :P

Neutrality sucks. That's why the Swiss are evil too. That and the nazi gold :D
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Syt on January 16, 2023, 02:19:49 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 16, 2023, 01:47:00 PMYour "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons :P

My (progressive) co-worker from India says India (and Modi) sucks. :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on January 16, 2023, 02:24:20 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 16, 2023, 02:14:55 PMNeutrality sucks. That's why the Swiss are evil too. That and the nazi gold :D
:lol: I think we can all agree that Switzerland is evil.

Even putting the Nazi gold aside, any country that FIFA chooses as its base has to be pretty fucked up.

But neutrality isn't necessarily the same as India's non-aligned position.

And also it is an awkward fact that India's is not unusual. It is the default position of the global South - it's broadly shared by most Latin American countries and most African countries as well. My own take is that while India's never going to be part of the Western alliance the general ambivalence of the global South is a concern and something the US and Europe should probably work to try and fix now.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Grey Fox on January 16, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 16, 2023, 01:36:56 PMThis forum can be funny.  I thought I was giving an edgy take, only to have grumbles and Sheilbh agree with me.

Whereas other times I think I'm saying something very boring and mainstream only to have people jump all over me.

Sorry.

Fuck India and beavers.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on January 16, 2023, 02:50:03 PM
I don't agree that India was truly non-aligned after about 1960.  They've been closely tied to the USSR/Russia, and just pay lip service to non-alignment.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on January 16, 2023, 04:10:34 PM
I for one often think people are too hard on India. India has a very Indian-centric foreign policy, which for some reason is often portrayed as negative when that is basically true of all foreign policies everywhere.

India has had a unique history. Unlike many European countries, it was never at serious risk of Soviet invasion, so it had no immediate reason to view the USSR as an existential threat. Given its 200 year history prior to that time, if anything, it had many reasons to view Western imperialism and Western meddling in India as a far bigger threat.

Given a default stance of Western-skepticism and lack of existential fear of Russia, it has never felt a need to not utilize a relationship with Russia to its advantage. This does not IMO suggest any ideological "siding" with either the USSR or now Putin's Russia, it just simply takes advantage of this relationship when it feels it can do so for its own benefit. It likewise utilizes its relationship with the United States to its benefit when it feels it can, too.

This sort of transactional attitude in many ways actually underlies Western policy as well, but because India is doing it outside of a formal alliance system it is portrayed as more craven or self-interested. This ignores that the multilateral world the United States has promoted since WW2 is a world that was built to protect and serve the interests of the United States. Now, obviously I agree ideologically with much of American policy in the Cold War and even now, but that's from the perspective of an American. I don't actually think India's position is immoral or terrible given India's own unique, distinct history and society.

On top of all that, there is also a simple economics--Russia is willing to work with India to sell it very cheap weapons, until very very recently any proposed U.S. weapons deals with India have always been price-prohibitive. I believe we're entering into agreements now where we will lease out manufacturing of some American weapons to India subcontractors working in Indian factories, which will allow them to start adopting some American weapons at a much lower cost.

I also think the United States needs to be honest that its bellicosity towards the Indian nuclear weapons program was unjust and probably ill advised. That nuclear weapons program likely protects Indian against serious invasion from China, and pretending they don't have concerns that would justify such a program is silly. Obviously the big fear has always been more that Pakistan and India will engage in a nuclear exchange, but there is a strong national logic to India's development of nuclear weapons and it's always IMO been insane that we really thought one of the world's largest countries bordering multiple dangerous enemies would just decide to never develop weapons its enemies were developing "because the West says so."

There are plenty of avenues where we can build a robust relationship with India--but it will have to be built on areas of mutual concern--like China, you aren't going to be able to bully India into joining you in an anti-Russia group when India has no reason to participate in such a thing.

The Global South is actually as a rule fairly similar--they are largely not interested in joining agreements in which the West can impose Western political and cultural values on them in exchange for economic development and military aid, they are interested in a relationship in which mutual interests can be allowed to progress and they are left to work out domestic political and cultural issues on their own--by the way, which is how the West worked through those issues itself, it is odd we assume it is our job to do for other countries what we did ourselves.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on January 16, 2023, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AMAt this point I think that Sweden should withdraw its NATO application. Tell NATO that we're here when they have figured their shit out, but for now enough is enough. It's obvious that NATO doesn't want Sweden to join right now, and desperately sucking up to Turkey is not a great look. The government's inept handling of things also hurts Sweden as a society, since they want to curb private expression of opinion in Sweden to placate Turkey.

Also, even if increased US pressure on Turkey possibly may bring about some improvement in NATO's position, the dominant power of the alliance leaning on a member to support the interest of a non-member is not a great look. More ominously it would mean that every member's veto isn't actually considered important by the US, which would make NATO more risky to join.

The critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Part of being in an alliance is having to make compromises to accommodate other countries. If Sweden was too stupid to realize that when they asked to join, they probably should withdraw. There was never any promise that Sweden was going to get to join under special rules that do not apply to any other alliance members about the entire alliance agreeing to let you in with no strings attached. NATO by its very nature, has strings attached.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 06:14:27 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 16, 2023, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AMAt this point I think that Sweden should withdraw its NATO application. Tell NATO that we're here when they have figured their shit out, but for now enough is enough. It's obvious that NATO doesn't want Sweden to join right now, and desperately sucking up to Turkey is not a great look. The government's inept handling of things also hurts Sweden as a society, since they want to curb private expression of opinion in Sweden to placate Turkey.

Also, even if increased US pressure on Turkey possibly may bring about some improvement in NATO's position, the dominant power of the alliance leaning on a member to support the interest of a non-member is not a great look. More ominously it would mean that every member's veto isn't actually considered important by the US, which would make NATO more risky to join.

The critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Part of being in an alliance is having to make compromises to accommodate other countries. If Sweden was too stupid to realize that when they asked to join, they probably should withdraw. There was never any promise that Sweden was going to get to join under special rules that do not apply to any other alliance members about the entire alliance agreeing to let you in with no strings attached. NATO by its very nature, has strings attached.

I don't follow. Why would the idea of such a promise exist?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on January 17, 2023, 05:25:58 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 06:50:36 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 16, 2023, 06:42:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AMThe critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Finland, unfortunately, has tied itself to Sweden on this.


Is the reasoning that Finland is safer outside of NATO if Sweden isn't in it?

I think the reasoning is that Sweden is our "big brother", so we have to do everything together. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on January 17, 2023, 05:49:41 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 17, 2023, 05:25:58 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 06:50:36 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 16, 2023, 06:42:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2023, 02:50:27 AMThe critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Finland, unfortunately, has tied itself to Sweden on this.


Is the reasoning that Finland is safer outside of NATO if Sweden isn't in it?

I think the reasoning is that Sweden is our "big brother", so we have to do everything together. :rolleyes:


I'm sorry. :(
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on January 17, 2023, 06:51:37 AM
Yeah, sorry 'bout that. We've had nitwits leading us since '96...
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on January 22, 2023, 05:25:05 PM
:lol: Protesters in Turkey have burnt Swedish flags. OMG who tf cares?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on January 22, 2023, 06:47:56 PM
How many of these useful idiots do the Russians have in reserve?

Maybe they can keep trolling Turkey so that Sweden never gets the nod from beyond the Bosporus?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on January 22, 2023, 08:20:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 22, 2023, 05:25:05 PM:lol: Protesters in Turkey have burnt Swedish flags. OMG who tf cares?

It's in response to Paludan publicly burning a Quran in Sweden. I wouldn't be surprised if Paludan is Putin aligned one way or the other.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on January 22, 2023, 08:30:09 PM
Also it is election season in Turkey and the polling looks not great for AKP.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on January 22, 2023, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 22, 2023, 08:30:09 PMAlso it is election season in Turkey and the polling looks not great for AKP.

Well I am not going to get my hopes up, but it certainly looks shakier than I would expect.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on January 25, 2023, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2023, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 22, 2023, 08:30:09 PMAlso it is election season in Turkey and the polling looks not great for AKP.

Well I am not going to get my hopes up, but it certainly looks shakier than I would expect.

If all else fails, Sweden can just join Finland 2 minutes after Finland is accepted into NATO. :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on January 25, 2023, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2023, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 22, 2023, 08:30:09 PMAlso it is election season in Turkey and the polling looks not great for AKP.

Well I am not going to get my hopes up, but it certainly looks shakier than I would expect.

The opposition gets 54% of the vote.
Erdogen wins anyway with 86% of the vote.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tonitrus on January 27, 2023, 02:59:40 PM
I think the best thing the US could probably do, in the face of Turkey's intransigence is to just sign our own full mutual defense treaty with Sweden/Finland and encourage all the remaining NATO states to do as all together in one big summit. It would accomplish the same goal while also being a low-level way making Turkey look stupid.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: HVC on January 27, 2023, 03:09:48 PM
Wouldn't it just be easier to get them to stop harbouring PKK terroists?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on January 27, 2023, 04:29:11 PM
Norway should just annexe Sweden and Finland, problem solve.  :smarty:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2023, 04:57:15 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 27, 2023, 03:09:48 PMWouldn't it just be easier to get them to stop harbouring PKK terroists?

then Erdolf would find another reason. Don't forget he is an islamofascist.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on January 27, 2023, 05:14:35 PM
I read somewhere on twitter that it surfaced that the Swedish nazi that burned a Quran (which was also mentioned by Erdogan as one of its excuses for blocking Sweden's entrance into NATO, I think) was or used to be on the Kremlin's payroll through RT.

Did you guys read anything about that?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on January 27, 2023, 05:41:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on January 27, 2023, 05:14:35 PMI read somewhere on twitter that it surfaced that the Swedish nazi that burned a Quran (which was also mentioned by Erdogan as one of its excuses for blocking Sweden's entrance into NATO, I think) was or used to be on the Kremlin's payroll through RT.

Did you guys read anything about that?

THe guy who burned it - Paludan (a Swedish and Danish citizen) claimed that the burning was the idea of the Sweden Democrats. The Sweden Democrats have been accused of being a security risk due to their ties to the Kremlin and - in 2016 at least - were heavily funded by a Swedish businessman doing massive business in Russia.

So yes, I've read a bit.

There's no immediate smoking gun that Putin ordered it or anything, but it doesn't seem far fetched that Russia was involved in a move that so clearly serves their interests.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on January 28, 2023, 10:53:02 AM
FFS, it's quite obvious this conflict is being driven by Turkish interests for internal Turkish consumption. The minute the  Turkish election is over the Turks will either conveniently forget about it or we will have a new party in control and that's that.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on January 28, 2023, 12:51:43 PM
Quote from: Threviel on January 28, 2023, 10:53:02 AMFFS, it's quite obvious this conflict is being driven by Turkish interests for internal Turkish consumption. The minute the  Turkish election is over the Turks will either conveniently forget about it or we will have a new party in control and that's that.

Yeah, the Turkish reaction is obviously very much driven by Turkish concerns - likely about the election. But I doubt Paludan consulted with any Turks about this?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on January 28, 2023, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 28, 2023, 12:51:43 PM
Quote from: Threviel on January 28, 2023, 10:53:02 AMFFS, it's quite obvious this conflict is being driven by Turkish interests for internal Turkish consumption. The minute the  Turkish election is over the Turks will either conveniently forget about it or we will have a new party in control and that's that.

Yeah, the Turkish reaction is obviously very much driven by Turkish concerns - likely about the election. But I doubt Paludan consulted with any Turks about this?

Paludan is relevant only because of a Turkish desire to manufacture conflict. If it wasn't him it would be something else, perhaps the effigy of Erdogan hanging upside down or something else entirely.

That SD apparently egged him to do it is to be expected of a nazi-party that still has the taste of Putins cock in their mouth.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on January 29, 2023, 11:12:01 AM
The reality is Erdogan quickly realized a lot of his base enjoys frothing up about disliking Sweden for various reasons, Finland is a sad bystander victim.

My belief is all these problems mysteriously go away after the election--if Erdo wins, he won't need to worry about public opinion again for years, and if he loses the opposition will not care much about appeasing his base.

The reason I expect it all goes away is because Erdogan IMO doesn't have any real fundamental issue with Sweden or Finland join--and he has some things going on right now where he has every reason to compromise. When Turkey got kicked out of the F-35 program (due to their own stupidity), they were left in a major lurch for future fighter jet deployment, especially since all of their pilots are largely trained on American planes. To offer a bit of a salve to that, the U.S. has had a deal to give them F-16s instead, several billion worth, but it's been held up in the Senate.

Most likely Biden can promise through back channels to get that deal finalized once Sweden and Finland are given the nod in NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on January 29, 2023, 11:18:35 AM
I'm not so sure about if the opposition wins. They're outflanking Erdogan on Turkish nationalism and chauvinism - not least by saying they'll send all 3.5 million Syrian refugees "home".

They might be less provoked by a Quran burning, but I wouldn't be surprised if they took an even stronger line on PKK/Kurdish groups.

Although I think you're right it'll probably be solved after the election through backchannels and cutting a deal with the US etc.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on January 29, 2023, 11:27:56 AM
Since Erdogans problems are solely imagined up for internal consumption it doesn't matter that the opposition is more hardline on PKK. Sweden has already rolled over and surrendered on the issue.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on January 29, 2023, 12:33:20 PM
Yeah, it's an entirely manufactured issue and Turkey actually needs some sort of new fighter jets because it was kicked out of the F-35 program. There is little to no chance this isn't resolved after the election regardless of the winners.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Larch on March 17, 2023, 02:16:43 PM
QuoteTurkish president lifts veto on Finland's Nato application
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan says he will recommend Turkish parliament vote in favour of Finland joining alliance

Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has lifted his veto on Finland's application to join Nato, a move that will strengthen the west's ability to withstand any future Russian threat across the Baltic Sea but leaves Sweden's parallel bid for Nato membership unresolved.

After a choreographed meeting with the Finnish president, Sauli Niinistö, in Ankara, Erdoğan said he would recommend to the Turkish parliament that it vote to back Finland's application to join. He said he hoped the vote would happen before the Turkish elections in May.

After Russia invaded Ukraine, Finland, which shares an 832-mile (1.340km) border with Russia, was forced to reconsider the foundations of its foreign and security policy and apply for Nato membership. It would be the 31st member of the alliance.

At a joint press conference, Erdoğan said Turkey's concerns about Kurdish terrorist activity in Finland had been addressed. "Turkey is one of the strong defenders of Nato's open-door policy," he said. Finland had taken "concrete and authentic steps" to meet Turkey's security concerns, and "with Finland's membership Nato will become stronger".

Niinistö said to Erdoğan: "Now we have got an answer, thank you," but he added: "Finnish Nato membership is not complete without Sweden." He expressed the hope that both countries would be permitted to join Nato at its summit in Vilnius in July.

Erdoğan has been demanding that Finland and Sweden do more to clamp down on Kurdish activists, but his objections about Sweden's behaviour are more deep seated.

On Thursday, Niinistö visited Turkey's Kahramanmaraş province, which was at the centre of the 6 February earthquake that killed more than 48,000 people, and he said he was shocked by what he had seen.

Hungary is now the only other Nato member still to approve Finland's membership, and it is expected to relent next week rather than be left isolated within the alliance.

Sweden and Finland, for diplomatic and security reasons, had originally treated their application last May as a simultaneous request since joint membership had a compelling reinforcing military logic. But after talks with Sweden, Finland decided reluctantly to press ahead with a membership bid of its own.

The Swedish prime minister, Ulf Kristersson, said on Wednesday: "I don't hide the fact that we would have preferred ratification together and hand in hand. But we respect that each country makes its own ratification decision."

The decision complicates Nato defence planning, but the complexity depends on how long Turkey keeps Sweden in the Nato waiting room. Jans Stoltenberg, the Nato secretary general, said he could not consider the circumstances in which Nato would not come to Sweden's defence if attacked by Russia.

Erdoğan has been seeking assurances from Finland and Sweden to eradicate members of the Kurdistan Workers' party (PKK), an organisation designated as terrorist by the European Union. He said there should be "no place for any terror group no matter what their name or aim".

Last June, Finland and Sweden signed a 10-point memorandum with Turkey to address Ankara's security concerns, but its contents were open to interpretation as to what it required the Nordic countries to do to clamp down on Kurdish activists.

In December, Finland loosened its strict embargo on arms exports to Turkey imposed in 2019 after Turkey's attack on northern Syria.

Erdoğan, politically weakened at home before elections in May, may hope that by accepting Finland's application he can show he can cooperate with the west and dispel suggestions that his nationalism has damaged the country economically.

Finland's parliament has already approved joining Nato, but the bill would need to be signed into law by the president within three months, setting a deadline on how long it needs to wait.

Hungary's president, Viktor Orbán, has repeatedly delayed approving Sweden and Finland's membership, accusing both countries of spreading lies about the state of democracy and the independence of the judiciary in his country. Hungary is looking for EU funds to be unlocked, but Orbán may not relish being the last country blocking Nato's expansion and his officials have indicated that parliament will discuss the issue on Monday. Orban met Erdoğan on Thursday.

US officials believe Turkey has been trying to use its Nato veto power as a bargaining chip to extract extraneous concessions, including that the US Senate lift its objections to the sale of F-16 jets. US senators, sensing that Erdoğan may be heading for defeat in the elections and eager to see a new, more cooperative president in his place, are not willing to grant Erdoğan any pre-election favours.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on March 17, 2023, 03:39:11 PM
Who would have thought that decades of anti-Turkish/pro-PKK politics in Sweden would have consequences...  :bleeding:

We ought to line up every Prime Minister since Carlsson and, well, give them a stern talking to, perhaps an angry glare.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on March 17, 2023, 07:58:28 PM
Quote from: Threviel on March 17, 2023, 03:39:11 PMWho would have thought that decades of anti-Turkish/pro-PKK politics in Sweden would have consequences...  :bleeding:

We ought to line up every Prime Minister since Carlsson and, well, give them a stern talking to, perhaps an angry glare.

Indeed. Imagine the folly of allowing free speech that irritates foreign dictators!   Swedes everywhere should hang their heads.  And then hang the Kurds.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on March 17, 2023, 08:52:57 PM
Quote from: Threviel on March 17, 2023, 03:39:11 PMWho would have thought that decades of anti-Turkish/pro-PKK politics in Sweden would have consequences...  :bleeding:

We ought to line up every Prime Minister since Carlsson and, well, give them a stern talking to, perhaps an angry glare.
Well, I can't really fault them for this.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 03, 2023, 11:49:46 AM
Finland will officially become a NATO member on Tuesday, doubling NATO's border with Russia.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Razgovory on April 03, 2023, 12:17:26 PM
Hooray!
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on April 03, 2023, 01:03:54 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2023, 11:49:46 AMFinland will officially become a NATO member on Tuesday, doubling NATO's border with Russia.

With a well equipped army of 250,000 soldiers.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2023, 07:22:15 AM
And Russia threatens about reinforcing it's border especially if nato send troops to Finland.

... So... I'm not getting the downside here. Loads of troops need sending to Finland ASAP.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2023, 03:42:49 PM
Heard on NPR that Finland joined on the 74th birthday of NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on April 04, 2023, 06:05:19 PM
Just Sweden left. When is that rug haggler up for reelection?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2023, 06:13:36 PM
Quote from: Josquius on April 04, 2023, 07:22:15 AMAnd Russia threatens about reinforcing it's border especially if nato send troops to Finland.

... So... I'm not getting the downside here. Loads of troops need sending to Finland ASAP.

Yes...please move resources away from Ukraine.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on April 04, 2023, 06:22:42 PM
With the Finns in NATO the Russian Northern Fleet in now in missile range. And the Baltic is now a NATO lake...

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 05, 2023, 12:40:22 AM
May, I think
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on April 05, 2023, 11:32:58 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 05, 2023, 12:40:22 AMMay, I think

Yeah. The 14th of May.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Threviel on April 27, 2023, 02:05:00 AM
So... Apparently Erdogan shat himself on live TV and is now in hospital.  :nelson:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on April 27, 2023, 09:25:38 AM
Stomach flu apparently.

Quote from: Threviel on April 27, 2023, 02:05:00 AMSo... Apparently Erdogan shat himself on live TV and is now in hospital.  :nelson:

See it is stuff like this that keeps Turkey from letting Sweden in NATO.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on April 27, 2023, 09:34:04 AM
I originally misread that as shot  :lol:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 27, 2023, 10:08:17 AM
That'll have to impact the election somehow, I think.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on April 27, 2023, 05:51:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 27, 2023, 10:08:17 AMThat'll have to impact the election somehow, I think.

No shit, Sherlock?

 :D
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 27, 2023, 05:55:04 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 27, 2023, 05:51:47 PMNo shit, Sherlock?

 :D

No no. Seems there was shit involved....
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 28, 2023, 03:49:52 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 27, 2023, 05:55:04 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 27, 2023, 05:51:47 PMNo shit, Sherlock?

 :D

No no. Seems there as shit involved....

Don't be a party pooper.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on April 28, 2023, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 27, 2023, 05:55:04 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 27, 2023, 05:51:47 PMNo shit, Sherlock?

 :D

No no. Seems there was shit involved....

 :frusty: You really shit the bed on that one
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 28, 2023, 12:53:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2023, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 27, 2023, 05:55:04 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 27, 2023, 05:51:47 PMNo shit, Sherlock?

 :D

No no. Seems there was shit involved....

 :frusty: You really shit the bed on that one

Not me. Erdogan. And his pants, not his bed.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on April 28, 2023, 08:45:55 PM
While everyone's attention is on Ukraine and Russia, the Swedes are discretely trying to preemptively strike at Norway to annex the country, in their first step to recreate the Kalmar Union.

Sweden accidentally fires rocket into Norway (https://news.sky.com/story/research-rocket-fired-from-sweden-lands-in-norway-which-takes-unauthorised-activity-very-seriously-12866323)


QuoteAn investigation is under way after a research rocket fired from Sweden malfunctioned and ended up landing in Norway.

The Norwegian foreign ministry has said its authorities take "any unauthorised activity" on its side of the border "very seriously", according to reports.

The rocket, which looked into weightlessness, had reached orbit at a height of 250km (155 miles), where experiments were carried out in zero gravity before it went off course.

It took a slightly longer and more westerly trajectory than calculated, said Sweden Space Corporation (SSC) - which was behind the launch.

The rocket and its payload came down at an altitude of 1km in a mountainous area 15km (9.3 miles) inside Norway. This was about 40km northwest of the planned landing site.

It landed in an area where nobody lives, and was "10km from the closest settlement", said Philip Ohlsson from SSC.

The projectile, which blasted off from Esrange Space Centre near Kiruna in northern Sweden on Monday at 7.20am local time (8.20am UK time), was supposed to land in an area close to the border.

Work is taking place to recover the payload and an inquiry will establish the technical reasons behind the unplanned flight path, said SSC.

Mr Ohlsson said procedures were in place for when such things go wrong. The company then informs both the Swedish and Norwegian governments and others.

The head of Esrange Space Centre, Lennart Poromaa, told Norwegian news website NRK that Norway's defence officials had been given prior notice the launch was happening and were updated when the rocket landed in the country.

The Norwegian armed forces' operational headquarters confirmed they received these two notifications from the Swedes, NRK also reported.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 29, 2023, 12:05:52 AM
The Kalmar Union was Danish led.

If Swedes are annexing Norway it's just pedestrian imperialism.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on April 29, 2023, 01:18:03 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2023, 12:05:52 AMThe Kalmar Union was Danish led.

If Swedes are annexing Norway it's just pedestrian imperialism.

If Sweden annexes Denmark and Norway, it can form Scandinavia and get some OP national ideas.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 29, 2023, 08:10:25 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 29, 2023, 01:18:03 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 29, 2023, 12:05:52 AMThe Kalmar Union was Danish led.

If Swedes are annexing Norway it's just pedestrian imperialism.

If Sweden annexes Denmark and Norway, it can form Scandinavia and get some OP national ideas.


Does it need Finland to do so?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on April 29, 2023, 10:11:30 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 29, 2023, 01:18:03 AMIf Sweden annexes Denmark and Norway, it can form Scandinavia and get some OP national ideas.

Sweden's not going to annex Denmark. We're part of NATO.

Denmark's not going to annex Sweden either, given the state of our armed forces (especially since we keep giving our gear to Ukraine).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 29, 2023, 12:08:56 PM
Since Erdolf 'won' the 'elections' in Turkey I guess we can bury Swedish membership for the forseeable future.

Also wouldn't mind if EU countries evicted Turks that voted for Erdolf so they can enjoy the fruits of their choice instead of ruining our societies. Not that that will happen of course
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on May 29, 2023, 12:22:59 PM
Election is over. I say there'll be a deal this year. :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 29, 2023, 12:32:03 PM
Yeah my impression is that he will feel it's OK now to accept the goodies that come with a yes.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 29, 2023, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 29, 2023, 12:22:59 PMElection is over. I say there'll be a deal this year. :hmm:
Yeah that'd be my guess too.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 30, 2023, 04:00:20 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 29, 2023, 12:08:56 PMSince Erdolf 'won' the 'elections' in Turkey I guess we can bury Swedish membership for the forseeable future.

Also wouldn't mind if EU countries evicted Turks that voted for Erdolf so they can enjoy the fruits of their choice instead of ruining our societies. Not that that will happen of course

People who want to expel someone for voting for the wrong guy probably belong in Erdogan's Turkey even more.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 30, 2023, 07:15:41 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 30, 2023, 04:00:20 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 29, 2023, 12:08:56 PMSince Erdolf 'won' the 'elections' in Turkey I guess we can bury Swedish membership for the forseeable future.

Also wouldn't mind if EU countries evicted Turks that voted for Erdolf so they can enjoy the fruits of their choice instead of ruining our societies. Not that that will happen of course

People who want to expel someone for voting for the wrong guy probably belong in Erdogan's Turkey even more.


Ah the Paradox of tolerance
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 30, 2023, 10:43:06 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 30, 2023, 04:00:20 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 29, 2023, 12:08:56 PMSince Erdolf 'won' the 'elections' in Turkey I guess we can bury Swedish membership for the forseeable future.

Also wouldn't mind if EU countries evicted Turks that voted for Erdolf so they can enjoy the fruits of their choice instead of ruining our societies. Not that that will happen of course

People who want to expel someone for voting for the wrong guy probably belong in Erdogan's Turkey even more.


that's your opinion.
at the very least double nationality should be outlawed. No right to vote in elections of two countries, no right to hold political office while holding a passport of another.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on May 30, 2023, 12:41:03 PM
Yeah, I generally would agree you shouldn't be eligible to vote in the elections of two different countries. You can either be a resident non-citizen ex-patriate of Country A, but continue to vote in your home country B, or you can naturalize in Country A and vote there--disqualifying you from voting in Country B.

I don't really mind dual citizenship, but as a matter of policy I think non-resident dual citizens should be disallowed voting (obviously this is a decision each country should make for itself, it's not something binding supranationally.)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on May 30, 2023, 12:54:59 PM
I'm the other end. I like Scotland's system where anyone who has lawful right to residence is allowed to vote - which is a bit broader than England where it's Commonwealth citizens (and proposals to extend it to EU citizens too).

All residents are paying taxes and part of our society so should have representation in it - and I don't really care if they also vote in other elections.

No issue with dual citizenship either (as a dual citizen :lol:).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PM
I think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 30, 2023, 01:00:36 PM
It's more of a problem when you vote twice (double electoral weight) for the same master, as in European Parliament elections. :whistle:  :P

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 30, 2023, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 30, 2023, 12:54:59 PMI'm the other end. I like Scotland's system where anyone who has lawful right to residence is allowed to vote - which is a bit broader than England where it's Commonwealth citizens (and proposals to extend it to EU citizens too).



Convenient they do that now after cheating them out of their rights to vote on European matters in 2016.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on May 30, 2023, 02:46:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 30, 2023, 12:54:59 PMI'm the other end. I like Scotland's system where anyone who has lawful right to residence is allowed to vote - which is a bit broader than England where it's Commonwealth citizens (and proposals to extend it to EU citizens too).

All residents are paying taxes and part of our society so should have representation in it - and I don't really care if they also vote in other elections.

No issue with dual citizenship either (as a dual citizen :lol:).

You can't really have a vested stake in two societies. If you're a Turkish citizen who is also a German citizen (if that's even allowed), you all but certainly have your primary interests in one of the two countries. If your residence is in Germany, we can assume it is Germany--and you shouldn't be voting in Turkish elections, you have no meaningful stake in the country as you don't live there.

The electorate should largely be made up of people who have a vested stake in society.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tonitrus on May 30, 2023, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

What if I consider myself master of my own domain?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 12:13:26 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 30, 2023, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

What if I consider myself master of my own domain?

You can't serve three masters either.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

Since you can't even pick your first citizenship, I'm not sure why it should be framed in terms of serving a master.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:56 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 30, 2023, 02:46:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 30, 2023, 12:54:59 PMI'm the other end. I like Scotland's system where anyone who has lawful right to residence is allowed to vote - which is a bit broader than England where it's Commonwealth citizens (and proposals to extend it to EU citizens too).

All residents are paying taxes and part of our society so should have representation in it - and I don't really care if they also vote in other elections.

No issue with dual citizenship either (as a dual citizen :lol:).

You can't really have a vested stake in two societies. If you're a Turkish citizen who is also a German citizen (if that's even allowed), you all but certainly have your primary interests in one of the two countries. If your residence is in Germany, we can assume it is Germany--and you shouldn't be voting in Turkish elections, you have no meaningful stake in the country as you don't live there.

The electorate should largely be made up of people who have a vested stake in society.

A person could easily be interested in both American and British society or American and Canadian.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Solmyr on May 31, 2023, 02:32:44 AM
People can have strong ties to multiple geographic locations nowadays. Also, viewing citizenship as "serving a master" sounds... trumpish.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 31, 2023, 03:17:05 AM
Banning multiple citizenship should be against international law.

For voting abroad... there it gets more complicated and more into opinion. But there I'd say presidential systems are dumb and shouldn't exist and that constituencies should exist for citizens abroad - considerably larger in size than regular national constituencies. For instance though you might get 50k to a normal constituency, the citizens abroad electorate more like 500k.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

Since you can't even pick your first citizenship, I'm not sure why it should be framed in terms of serving a master.

Many citizenships require you by law to do things. These things may be mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on May 31, 2023, 04:18:20 AM
I have a vested interest in both British and Hungarian societies. My personal loyalty lies with the British state and society - I have become a citizen by my own decision and by the decision of the British state, so besides the personal interest of living here, I feel a sense of loyalty and obligation.

With Hungary, I have a vested interest there because my family and a lot of my friends live there. It is not affecting my primary allegiance with Britain, but my allegiance to Britain does not (and I believe does not have to) eliminate my concern with and interest in Hungary.

But this does not excuse Turkish Erdogan-fans living abroad from criticism. What Erdogan stands for is so much against foundation-level concepts of EU countries that if they strongly approve Erdogan we are right to feel they should perhaps go and live under his rule. Doesn't mean we should force them to do so, though.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2023, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

Since you can't even pick your first citizenship, I'm not sure why it should be framed in terms of serving a master.

Many citizenships require you by law to do things. These things may be mutually exclusive.

The US citizenship oath starts with the phrase ""I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.."  That would seem to preclude dual citizenship, and yet US law does allow dual citizenship/nationality. 

I wonder if other countries have such elements in their naturalization oath and if any of them take it seriously.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 07:32:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2023, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

Since you can't even pick your first citizenship, I'm not sure why it should be framed in terms of serving a master.

Many citizenships require you by law to do things. These things may be mutually exclusive.

The US citizenship oath starts with the phrase ""I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.."  That would seem to preclude dual citizenship, and yet US law does allow dual citizenship/nationality. 

I wonder if other countries have such elements in their naturalization oath and if any of them take it seriously.

I was primarily thinking about requirements to fight in a war against the other country, or laws that require citizens to spy for their government if asked to and similar.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on May 31, 2023, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 07:32:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2023, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

Since you can't even pick your first citizenship, I'm not sure why it should be framed in terms of serving a master.

Many citizenships require you by law to do things. These things may be mutually exclusive.

The US citizenship oath starts with the phrase ""I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.."  That would seem to preclude dual citizenship, and yet US law does allow dual citizenship/nationality. 

I wonder if other countries have such elements in their naturalization oath and if any of them take it seriously.

I was primarily thinking about requirements to fight in a war against the other country, or laws that require citizens to spy for their government if asked to and similar.

Those laws are against human rights thus can be taken with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Josquius on May 31, 2023, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 07:32:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2023, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

Since you can't even pick your first citizenship, I'm not sure why it should be framed in terms of serving a master.

Many citizenships require you by law to do things. These things may be mutually exclusive.

The US citizenship oath starts with the phrase ""I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.."  That would seem to preclude dual citizenship, and yet US law does allow dual citizenship/nationality. 

I wonder if other countries have such elements in their naturalization oath and if any of them take it seriously.

I was primarily thinking about requirements to fight in a war against the other country, or laws that require citizens to spy for their government if asked to and similar.

Those laws are against human rights thus can be taken with a pinch of salt.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2023, 11:39:24 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2023, 07:32:32 AMI was primarily thinking about requirements to fight in a war against the other country, or laws that require citizens to spy for their government if asked to and similar.

Yes, those situations become even trickier given that, if you have citizenship in two countries that go to war with one another and both require you to fight, then you must commit treason against the one you don't fight for.  That's almost certainly true of spying, as well.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on June 03, 2023, 10:53:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:56 AMA person could easily be interested in both American and British society or American and Canadian.

I take a passing interest in British and Canadian politics. That is nowhere near the threshold to justify letting me vote in those countries. If I had been born in the UK and had moved to the USA at age 5, it would be absurd for me to still be voting in British elections, no matter how close I felt to my "home country" that I hadn't lived in for 50 years.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on June 05, 2023, 09:18:07 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 30, 2023, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 30, 2023, 12:55:07 PMI think dual citizenship is a pragmatic solution, but it IS fundamentally weird since you can't serve two masters.

What if I consider myself master of my own domain?
Like a Sovereign Citizen? ;) :P
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on June 05, 2023, 09:19:32 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 03, 2023, 10:53:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2023, 02:07:56 AMA person could easily be interested in both American and British society or American and Canadian.

I take a passing interest in British and Canadian politics. That is nowhere near the threshold to justify letting me vote in those countries. If I had been born in the UK and had moved to the USA at age 5, it would be absurd for me to still be voting in British elections, no matter how close I felt to my "home country" that I hadn't lived in for 50 years.

Well, I suppose it would be different if you moved in your 20s or 30s.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: viper37 on June 05, 2023, 09:22:10 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2023, 04:18:20 AMI have a vested interest in both British and Hungarian societies. My personal loyalty lies with the British state and society - I have become a citizen by my own decision and by the decision of the British state, so besides the personal interest of living here, I feel a sense of loyalty and obligation.

With Hungary, I have a vested interest there because my family and a lot of my friends live there. It is not affecting my primary allegiance with Britain, but my allegiance to Britain does not (and I believe does not have to) eliminate my concern with and interest in Hungary.

It has to be tough, sometimes, seeing your country turn like this, knowing you can't do anything from outside, no one could anything from inside...

I have trouble accepting the way things are in my liberal democracy, I can't imagine if things took a turn for the worst, democratically speaking.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on June 07, 2023, 05:15:36 PM
On Turkish voters overseas, there is huge variance:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxQFr_eWcAEuHAu?format=png&name=small)

https://secim2023.hurriyet.com.tr/28-mayis-2023-secimleri/cumhurbaskanligi-yurtdisi-secim-sonuclari/
So among Turks in the UK, Canada and the US 4-1 against Erdogan (and even more in Ireland), but almost the reverse in the Low Countries (closer in France, Germany and Austria).

I'd love to know what the explanations/factors are. My assumption is it reflects the demographics of migrant communities in different countries - maybe more Kurds, plus urban/Mediterranean Turks v communities from heartland Anatolia. But I've no idea.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on June 07, 2023, 08:02:07 PM
All the Turks I know are exiled Gulenists so maybe they all came to the US. That might explain that a little bit.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 07, 2023, 08:10:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 07, 2023, 05:15:36 PMI'd love to know what the explanations/factors are.

North America is more awesome with immigrants than Europe.  :)
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Valmy on June 07, 2023, 08:21:09 PM
I was going to speculate that having to go farther from Turkey might mean only the middle class liberals are in North America but the Turks in Bulgaria and Greece also voted against Erdogan so who knows?

I don't know what is going on in the Netherlands to attract such horrible people.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 08, 2023, 05:42:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 07, 2023, 08:21:09 PMI was going to speculate that having to go farther from Turkey might mean only the middle class liberals are in North America but the Turks in Bulgaria and Greece also voted against Erdogan so who knows?

I don't know what is going on in the Netherlands to attract such horrible people.

Ethnic Turkish minorities plus Turkish refugees or exiles in Greece and Bulgaria not too happy with the Erdogan-aligned Turkish minority party stirring things up? Instead of the regular Turkish minority party which is trying to work within the system.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Maladict on June 09, 2023, 08:47:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 07, 2023, 08:21:09 PMI don't know what is going on in the Netherlands to attract such horrible people.

They came to work in the 60s and 70s, mostly from impoverished rural areas. The culture shock and lack of integration only made them more conservative than they already were.

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on June 09, 2023, 09:37:14 AM
Sweden to allow the stationing of NATO forces and equipment within the country, 'Sends a strong message to Russia'.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 09, 2023, 10:19:34 AM
Quote from: Maladict on June 09, 2023, 08:47:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 07, 2023, 08:21:09 PMI don't know what is going on in the Netherlands to attract such horrible people.

They came to work in the 60s and 70s, mostly from impoverished rural areas. The culture shock and lack of integration only made them more conservative than they already were.

Same as Germany basically.

That's more or less the same story over here, except they came here much later, from the '90s on, with the gästarbeiter programs illusions already dispelled (working 2 or 3 years abroad no need to bring the family etc.) and the programs themselves ended.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Syt on September 27, 2023, 01:24:36 AM
https://apnews.com/article/hungary-orban-delay-sweden-nato-bid-f0529443019c3f8161947d30acc59b68

QuotePrime Minister Orbán says Hungary is in no rush to ratify Sweden's NATO bid

BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán said Monday that his country is in no hurry to ratify Sweden's bid to join NATO, suggesting the Nordic country could face further delays in becoming a member of the military alliance.

Speaking during the opening autumn session of Hungary's parliament, Orbán told lawmakers that "nothing is threatening Sweden's security," and that Hungary was therefore in "no rush" to ratify its NATO accession.

Orbán's statement came after other high-ranking Hungarian officials recently suggested that Sweden's ratification may not be put on the parliamentary agenda at all during the autumn session. On Thursday, the caucus leader of Orbán's Fidesz party, Mate Kocsis, said he saw "little chance" that parliament would vote on the matter this year.

Hungary remains the only NATO member country, besides Turkey, that hasn't yet approved Sweden's bid to join the alliance. The Nordic nation, along with neighboring Finland, dropped its longstanding military neutrality after Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, and quickly signaled its intention to join NATO.

Yet Hungary has delayed ratifying its bid since July 2022 while also making vague demands from Stockholm as conditions for approval. Orban's government has alleged that Swedish politicians have told "blatant lies" about the condition of Hungary's democracy, which he says left some lawmakers unsure of whether to support the accession bid.

Fidesz earlier caused multiple delays in ratifying Finland's NATO bid, but swiftly passed the measure in March once Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan indicated that his government would move forward on the ratification.

On Monday, Orbán also criticized the Ukrainian government under President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, saying Hungary would "not support Ukraine on any international issue" until the language rights of a sizeable Hungarian minority in western Ukraine are restored.

He also said Hungary had been "deceived" by a European Union plan to allow Ukrainian grain to transit across Hungary after shipments across the Black Sea were hindered by the war with Russia, and that shipments of Ukrainian products ostensibly bound for Africa had been sold in Hungary for lower prices, pressuring domestic producers.

"Brussels claimed that without Ukrainian grain, serious famine threatened African countries," Orbán said. "After transit across the Black Sea was made impossible by the war, Hungary opened a solidarity transit corridor at Brussels' request so that food could get to Africa from Ukraine and across Hungary. Let's say it straight: They deceived us."

Orbán said that cheaper Ukrainian grain had flooded Hungarian markets, creating a supply glut that had harmed its agricultural industry. Together with Slovakia and Poland, Hungary instituted an import ban on 23 Ukrainian agricultural products on Sept. 15, but will continue to allow their transfer across its territory.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: mongers on September 27, 2023, 08:32:23 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 27, 2023, 01:24:36 AMhttps://apnews.com/article/hungary-orban-delay-sweden-nato-bid-f0529443019c3f8161947d30acc59b68

QuotePrime Minister Orbán says Hungary is in no rush to ratify Sweden's NATO bid

BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán said Monday that his country is in no hurry to ratify Sweden's bid to join NATO, suggesting the Nordic country could face further delays in becoming a member of the military alliance.

Speaking during the opening autumn session of Hungary's parliament, Orbán told lawmakers that "nothing is threatening Sweden's security," and that Hungary was therefore in "no rush" to ratify its NATO accession.
....

Man the latest Putin bribe/compromat must be huge/significant.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on September 27, 2023, 08:45:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 07, 2023, 08:21:09 PMI was going to speculate that having to go farther from Turkey might mean only the middle class liberals are in North America but the Turks in Bulgaria and Greece also voted against Erdogan so who knows?

I don't know what is going on in the Netherlands to attract such horrible people.

That and to get into Canada at least they needed to have either skills that Canada needed or for a time they could get in through the investor route. Either way the people that were admitted into Canada are much more likely to be highly educated, and supporters of some form of liberal democracy.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Legbiter on October 23, 2023, 01:14:28 PM
QuoteTurkey's president submits protocol for Sweden's admission into NATO to parliament for ratification

https://apnews.com/article/turkey-sweden-nato-erdogan-77dce28b7d7386c2e363f2468d089c11 (https://apnews.com/article/turkey-sweden-nato-erdogan-77dce28b7d7386c2e363f2468d089c11)

Something tells me a Koran will catch fire in Stockholm shortly... ^_^
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on October 23, 2023, 02:21:55 PM
One of the Danish broadsheet ran a headline asking whether it'd be legal or illegal to wrap the Koran in a rainbow flag.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on October 23, 2023, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 23, 2023, 02:21:55 PMOne of the Danish broadsheet ran a headline asking whether it'd be legal or illegal to wrap the Koran in a rainbow flag.

 :hmm:
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on October 23, 2023, 04:27:21 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 23, 2023, 04:14:58 PM:hmm:

This is in response to the less-than-universally-popular new law that burning the Koran to piss off Muslims is illegal.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Duque de Bragança on October 23, 2023, 04:28:26 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 23, 2023, 04:27:21 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 23, 2023, 04:14:58 PM:hmm:

This is in response to the less-than-universally-popular new law that burning the Koran to piss off Muslims is illegal.

Yeah, I figured it was linked. Wonder what's next with those one-purpose laws.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 24, 2023, 12:50:55 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 23, 2023, 04:27:21 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 23, 2023, 04:14:58 PM:hmm:

This is in response to the less-than-universally-popular new law that burning the Koran to piss off Muslims is illegal.

And slice by slice islam destroys our societies
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 03:45:47 AM
Burning the koran is hardly a key part of our society.
It's something nobody would bother to do at all if it wasn't the edgelord fashion to piss off Muslims.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 04:15:07 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 03:45:47 AMBurning the koran is hardly a key part of our society.
It's something nobody would bother to do at all if it wasn't the edgelord fashion to piss off Muslims.

Mocking religion is a key part of our society.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 04:26:13 AM
Indeed. It would be dishonest to deny that due to the combination of xenophobs targeting Muslims and the likeliness of violent reaction from Muslims, our societies are facing a very real risk of regression when it comes to our freedoms limited on religious grounds. The state making Koran burnings illegal is the state confirming that the Koran is sacred.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 04:40:30 AM
Yeah I don't know that it should be specific. It's illegal here (and several Scandi protesters have been banned from the UK) on basically the same grounds that some Islamists protests would be illegal (and several radical Islamists from overseas have been banned from the UK).

It's general public order legislation - I think largely from the 80s and designed to target football hooligans. It's not a totally laissez faire approach to speech - but I don't know in Scandinavia but my view is broadly if you can stop radical Islamist hate preachers, then you should also be able to stop people hatefully protesting against Muslims. Otherwise it's one way and specific in the other direction.

On the rainbow flag - I think context would matter. A queer Muslim group (of which there are several in the UK) doing that has a very different meaning than a gay skinhead outside a big mosque.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 06:09:01 AM
What constitutes hate preaching?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 06:22:44 AM
:lol: Fair question as it's used a lot in the UK for extremist radical Islamist preachers - but I'm not sure what it normally actually means. For me preaching hatred towards, say, gays, Jews, anything that would harass or threaten those groups (or other groups in society), inspire their follows to harass or commit violence against them or preaching violence more generally.

I think it was also used to ban Fred Phelps from entering the UK, for example.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 06:25:50 AM
So something like "Allah doesn't want you to fuck another man" would qualify?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 06:28:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 06:25:50 AMSo something like "Allah doesn't want you to fuck another man" would qualify?
No, of course not. "Allah wants you to stone gays" or "Jews are lower than snakes" would qualify.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:14:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 04:26:13 AMIndeed. It would be dishonest to deny that due to the combination of xenophobs targeting Muslims and the likeliness of violent reaction from Muslims, our societies are facing a very real risk of regression when it comes to our freedoms limited on religious grounds. The state making Koran burnings illegal is the state confirming that the Koran is sacred.

Less it's sacred and more we don't want the fuss of extremists trying to rile each other up.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 07:31:53 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:14:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 04:26:13 AMIndeed. It would be dishonest to deny that due to the combination of xenophobs targeting Muslims and the likeliness of violent reaction from Muslims, our societies are facing a very real risk of regression when it comes to our freedoms limited on religious grounds. The state making Koran burnings illegal is the state confirming that the Koran is sacred.

Less it's sacred and more we don't want the fuss of extremists trying to rile each other up.

It's essentially done to avoid violence which means the state is coerced by religious fanatics to make legislation supporting their views.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:35:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 07:31:53 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:14:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 04:26:13 AMIndeed. It would be dishonest to deny that due to the combination of xenophobs targeting Muslims and the likeliness of violent reaction from Muslims, our societies are facing a very real risk of regression when it comes to our freedoms limited on religious grounds. The state making Koran burnings illegal is the state confirming that the Koran is sacred.

Less it's sacred and more we don't want the fuss of extremists trying to rile each other up.

It's essentially done to avoid violence which means the state is coerced by religious fanatics to make legislation supporting their views.


Which is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 07:46:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2023, 07:31:53 AMIt's essentially done to avoid violence which means the state is coerced by religious fanatics to make legislation supporting their views.
Here it was legislation to arrest football hooligans before they were violent. It is the same legislation that's been used to effectively ban Quran burning have been used against the BNP, anti-Scientology protestors, Catholic pro-life protesters and a student who called a police horse "gay" :lol: The case against the student was dropped, although the CPS defended the case on the grounds that he was making homophobic comments that were deemed offensive by passers-by.

Now admittedly I think it's probably fair to say the law is a little too broadly drafted :P

There is a proposal (backed by most Tory and Lib Dem MPs) to more clearly demarcate what's criminal and what's just offensive which sounds sensible. But I don't fundamentally have an issue with the law stopping extremists whatever their preference.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 24, 2023, 08:15:02 AM
Quote from: JosquiusThe white far right are a much bigger issue.
No they're not.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 08:23:26 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 24, 2023, 08:15:02 AM
Quote from: JosquiusThe white far right are a much bigger issue.
No they're not.

Hard data and the word of western intelligence services suggests different.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 08:40:43 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 08:23:26 AMHard data and the word of western intelligence services suggests different.
That's not true in the UK - according to those agencies. There are some areas of the country where far-right extremism is the major counter-extremism threat, such as Wales and, I think, the North-East. To an extent that probably reflects demographics in that they're not particularly diverse places. It is an area that they're having to devote more resources too.

However in most of the country, but especially London, the Midlands the North-West, it is still Islamist extremism that is the major threat and focus of more than half their reseources. Though, again, far-right extremism has grown as a focus. Again to an extent that just reflects demographics. It is also probably reflected in the fact that London is, despite its reputation, the most socially conservative part of the country in polling on attitudes to sex, sexuality and gender (which isn't just about Islam either).

What I think is probably more relevant is that the process of radicalisation seems to be very, very similar as do the people who are radicalised.

Of course the other point is that while the threat from the far-right has grown (and it is still secondary to extremist Islamism), is that the third category that has grown more quickly than those two is the "mixed, unclear or unstable". I think there's proposals to remove them from counter-extremism and treat that as less of an intelligence more of an everyday policing issue because as the name suggests they're not really ideologically coherent, they tend not to be in groups. It's still overwhelmingly young men but it's sort of the young man online self-radicalising in various often quite unpredictable ways. Also at least on the studies of incels there's online crimes that looking at again and women need more protection but in terms of physical acts apparently the studies in the area show a lot more self-harm than violence (which is not true of the far-right or extremist Islamist terrorists) - so it maybe needs looking at differently. Perhaps the intervention for the "mixed, unclear or unstable" is more likely to be psychological/mental health rather than community groups who can help someone away from radicalising.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 08:49:04 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 08:40:43 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 08:23:26 AMHard data and the word of western intelligence services suggests different.
That's not true in the UK - according to those agencies. There are some areas of the country where far-right extremism is the major counter-extremism threat, such as Wales and, I think, the North-East. To an extent that probably reflects demographics in that they're not particularly diverse places. It is an area that they're having to devote more resources too.

However in most of the country, but especially London, the Midlands the North-West, it is still Islamist extremism that is the major threat and focus of more than half their reseources. Though, again, far-right extremism has grown as a focus. Again to an extent that just reflects demographics. It is also probably reflected in the fact that London is, despite its reputation, the most socially conservative part of the country in polling on attitudes to sex, sexuality and gender (which isn't just about Islam either).

What I think is probably more relevant is that the process of radicalisation seems to be very, very similar as do the people who are radicalised.

Of course the other point is that while the threat from the far-right has grown (and it is still secondary to extremist Islamism), is that the third category that has grown more quickly than those two is the "mixed, unclear or unstable". I think there's proposals to remove them from counter-extremism and treat that as less of an intelligence more of an everyday policing issue because as the name suggests they're not really ideologically coherent, they tend not to be in groups. It's still overwhelmingly young men but it's sort of the young man online self-radicalising in various often quite unpredictable ways. Also at least on the studies of incels there's online crimes that looking at again and women need more protection but in terms of physical acts apparently the studies in the area show a lot more self-harm than violence (which is not true of the far-right or extremist Islamist terrorists) - so it maybe needs looking at differently. Perhaps the intervention for the "mixed, unclear or unstable" is more likely to be psychological/mental health rather than community groups who can help someone away from radicalising.

There's a long standing heavy focus on Islamic extremism which isn't going away over night, its where they have a lot of legacy resources focussed.
But it is recognised that the growing threat is from the white far right rather than the Islamic far right and resources are shifting this way. Lots of stuff out there discussing this e.g.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/44185/interview-richard-dearlovei-spy-nationalism

Quote"The Islamist terrorist threat is obviously serious but containable and ultimately manageable," Dearlove told me in an email the day after the attack. "We have to keep a sense of proportion about it; successful terrorist attacks have been few in number. The situation would only change with several mass casualty incidents which would threaten that sense of proportion and drive society towards an extreme response. At the moment I judge that as unlikely to happen. Containment of the threat with occasional failures can continue almost indefinitely."

Dearlove told me that despite the terrorist threat to Britain, it is not the most serious challenge the country faces. "The deterioration of European politics, with the rise of parties on the extreme right, is a far more serious problem for the UK. It is not in the UK's national interest to see continental Europe being split apart by the revival of nationalist movements as a post-Brexit Britain returns to a mid-Atlantic rather than continental orientation to its foreign policy.

As I've said before Prevent are actively going around visiting schools where teachers tell me their chat is basically "You think terrorist you think a frothing mouthed muslim guy with a beard blowing himself up. The bigger threat is from more mundane looking white guys who've fell down an internet rabbit hole and are quietly becoming detached from society and building an ideology of victimhood."

Also worth remembering that ultimately the aim of Islamic extremists in the west is to build more support for the white far right and push for more Islamophobic reactionary policies. Even when its an Islamic fundamentalist killing people it all comes back to Nazis.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: crazy canuck on October 24, 2023, 09:07:30 AM
Tamas raises a good point.

If the concern is avoiding societal conflict, why not criminalize the burning of any religious texts, with a small carve out for religions that burn their texts during the course of a ceremony. I don't know if that exists but to the extent that's a concern it can be dealt with in the legislation.

Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Sheilbh on October 24, 2023, 09:12:34 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 08:49:04 AMThere's a long standing heavy focus on Islamic extremism which isn't going away over night, its where they have a lot of legacy resources focussed.
But it is recognised that the growing threat is from the white far right rather than the Islamic far right and resources are shifting this way. Lots of stuff out there discussing this e.g.


[...]

As I've said before Prevent are actively going around visiting schools where teachers tell me their chat is basically "You think terrorist you think a frothing mouthed muslim guy with a beard blowing himself up. The bigger threat is from more mundane looking white guys who've fell down an internet rabbit hole and are quietly becoming detached from society and building an ideology of victimhood."

Also worth remembering that ultimately the aim of Islamic extremists in the west is to build more support for the white far right and push for more Islamophobic reactionary policies. Even when its an Islamic fundamentalist killing people it all comes back to Nazis.
Yeah I don't dispute that - my point is that more than half of their resources are still focused on extremist Islamists and that there are big regional differences. Though I don't think that's fully Dearlove's point.

And I'd add whether it is Islamist extremist or far right - it's very often young men who've fallen down internet rabbit holes, quietly becoming detached from society and building an ideology of victimhood. That's what I mean by the people being radicalised and the process of radicalisation being basically the same whether far-right or extremist Islamist.

I totally disagree on the ultimate aim of Islamist extremists. There may be an element of hoping to provoke a response that demonstrates their point. I don't think that's their ultimate goal, on an ideological goal I think their ultimate goal is an extremist Islamist state (on a personal level for both I suspect it's more almost existential/sense of action) not the knock-on effects within x countries politics. I generally think if people are willing to kill or die for a cause they're normally intending to do it for the cause, not some other more tactical reason.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Jacob on October 24, 2023, 10:17:20 AM
Didn't mean to start a free speech sub-thread :lol:

Not intending this as a argument for or against, but simply to add a bit more context regarding the situation in Denmark.

1) Denmark sees itself as pretty strongly in favour of free speech - which is why we've had our own Mohammad-caricature controversies, for example. But Denmark is also a European centre for printing and selling books like Mein Kampf, as I understand it, due to its general commitment to free speech.

2) At the same time, there are a number of quirks. Until very recently it required special dispensation from the police to fly any flag except the Danish (and fellow Scandinavian) flag, for example. That was true until the supreme court found against that law in June this year (driven by a case of someone being prosecuted for flying an American flag).

3) Similarly, you're not allowed to burn any flag (except the Danish flag, as a method of proper disposal).

4) Denmark had an anti-blasphemy law on the books until 2017.

5) The new law criminalizes "inappropriate treatment of objects of significance to a faith, in public", more or less. This, it is argued, is a reintroduction of elements of the anti-blasephemy law (which was more wide ranging).
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:35:50 AMWhich is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 04:56:58 PM
QuoteI totally disagree on the ultimate aim of Islamist extremists. There may be an element of hoping to provoke a response that demonstrates their point. I don't think that's their ultimate goal, on an ideological goal I think their ultimate goal is an extremist Islamist state (on a personal level for both I suspect it's more almost existential/sense of action) not the knock-on effects within x countries politics. I generally think if people are willing to kill or die for a cause they're normally intending to do it for the cause, not some other more tactical reason.
They're on record saying as much themselves.

It's not their ultimate ultimate aim of course. This would be the apocalyptic war of civilizations where all Muslims unite against the infidels and establish a glorious caliphate.

But pushing non Muslims into being islamophobic shit heads is a key step towards accomplishing this.

It's always a funny irony that the white and Islamic far right so claim to hate each other yet at the same time rely on each other as a source of their strength and despite what they say on the surface, clearly really love it when the other side does something horrid.


Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:35:50 AMWhich is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

Charlie Hebdo is a satirical paper. Satirising things is their whole reason for exitsance. They weren't just going "hurr durr. Look me burn koran. Muslim be angry now"

As to making the white far right (don't forget Islamic extremists are far right too) angry, a better analogy would be something that enrages white folk at large and encourages them towards the far right. Which yes. That kind of thing is also be covered under hate speech laws, though a lot more leeway is usually given with it. Many times the media and mainstream politicians have  flirted with this shit.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 25, 2023, 12:40:49 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:35:50 AMWhich is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

That's not how things work. Only things that are to the advantage of islam are allowed.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 25, 2023, 02:09:17 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 25, 2023, 12:40:49 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:35:50 AMWhich is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

That's not how things work. Only things that are to the advantage of islam are allowed.

Except that's demonstrably not the case despite your attempt to manufacture a victim complex.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 25, 2023, 04:11:08 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 04:56:58 PMCharlie Hebdo is a satirical paper. Satirising things is their whole reason for exitsance. They weren't just going "hurr durr. Look me burn koran. Muslim be angry now"

As to making the white far right (don't forget Islamic extremists are far right too) angry, a better analogy would be something that enrages white folk at large and encourages them towards the far right. Which yes. That kind of thing is also be covered under hate speech laws, though a lot more leeway is usually given with it. Many times the media and mainstream politicians have  flirted with this shit.

So the important distinction in your mind between cartoons which anger Muslims and burning the Koran is the aesthetics?  If Koran burners stopped saying hurr durr so much then it would be an acceptable action?

I can think of a number of things which plausibly made white Trumpists more militant and violent: stealing the election(c), trans athletes, climate change, etc.  Should those things be banned as hate speech too?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 25, 2023, 08:03:22 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 25, 2023, 04:11:08 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 04:56:58 PMCharlie Hebdo is a satirical paper. Satirising things is their whole reason for exitsance. They weren't just going "hurr durr. Look me burn koran. Muslim be angry now"

As to making the white far right (don't forget Islamic extremists are far right too) angry, a better analogy would be something that enrages white folk at large and encourages them towards the far right. Which yes. That kind of thing is also be covered under hate speech laws, though a lot more leeway is usually given with it. Many times the media and mainstream politicians have  flirted with this shit.

So the important distinction in your mind between cartoons which anger Muslims and burning the Koran is the aesthetics?  If Koran burners stopped saying hurr durr so much then it would be an acceptable action?

I can think of a number of things which plausibly made white Trumpists more militant and violent: stealing the election(c), trans athletes, climate change, etc.  Should those things be banned as hate speech too?

Aesthetics? Eh? How do you get that?

No. Its motivation which matters. Both in the action itself and in the past record of the one behind it.
Charlie Hebdo is known as an all purpose shit stirrer. It has a long history making fun of anything and everything. There's no specific hate targeted at muslims in their mocking Muhammed.
On the other hand if a far right group whose reason for existence is destroy all muslims tries to do the same thing...then their motives are rather more questionable. Rather than just saying muslims aren't immune to their general purpose mocking they'd be specifically just trying to attack muslims out of hate.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 25, 2023, 08:46:26 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 25, 2023, 08:03:22 AMAesthetics? Eh? How do you get that?

No. Its motivation which matters. Both in the action itself and in the past record of the one behind it.
Charlie Hebdo is known as an all purpose shit stirrer. It has a long history making fun of anything and everything. There's no specific hate targeted at muslims in their mocking Muhammed.
On the other hand if a far right group whose reason for existence is destroy all muslims tries to do the same thing...then their motives are rather more questionable. Rather than just saying muslims aren't immune to their general purpose mocking they'd be specifically just trying to attack muslims out of hate.

Destroy as in kill?  You have determined that every person who burns a Koran yearns to kill all Muslims?
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 25, 2023, 09:01:09 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 25, 2023, 02:09:17 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 25, 2023, 12:40:49 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 24, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Josquius on October 24, 2023, 07:35:50 AMWhich is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

That's not how things work. Only things that are to the advantage of islam are allowed.

Except that's demonstrably not the case despite your attempt to manufacture a victim complex.
Not yet, despite your inability to accept that the ideology islam is anything but progressive
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Josquius on October 25, 2023, 10:47:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 25, 2023, 08:46:26 AMDestroy as in kill?  You have determined that every person who burns a Koran yearns to kill all Muslims?

Define kill.
They personally plan to kill as many as possible in a public manner? They'd love it if they all vanished in a puff of smoke? They have a more long term outlook on "getting rid of them" in a PR friendly  but still permanent way?
You're the only one to start talking about killing people here.
Undoubtedly Muslims simply dropping the religion isn't much of a consideration for many of these people. The venn with general purpose racists is tight.  And then there's a lot of ways to ethnically cleanse without getting your hands too dirty.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 25, 2023, 09:01:09 AMNot yet, despite your inability to accept that the ideology islam is anything but progressive

Thats a complete non-sequitur.
The issue isn't that others think Islam is somehow progressive. Its religion. Of course it errs towards conservative.
However it simply isn't much of a threat. In western countries muslims are minority, many of them very secular, and the delusions about a take over are just silly.
As to the middle east...well its time at the centre of the world's attention is drawing to a close. Less a potential future threat and more a potential future humanitarian issue.
Title: Re: Finland, Sweden + NATO
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 25, 2023, 11:03:08 AM
Quote from: Josquius on October 25, 2023, 10:47:58 AMDefine kill.
They personally plan to kill as many as possible in a public manner? They'd love it if they all vanished in a puff of smoke? They have a more long term outlook on "getting rid of them" in a PR friendly  but still permanent way?
You're the only one to start talking about killing people here.
Undoubtedly Muslims simply dropping the religion isn't much of a consideration for many of these people. The venn with general purpose racists is tight.  And then there's a lot of ways to ethnically cleanse without getting your hands too dirty.

Kill usually means to take actions that result in the end of life.

I was responding to your comment about destroying Muslims.  That can mean anything and it can mean nothing.