http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/10/best-rpg/
Well, more RPG-ish games rather than what you would usually consider an RPG. When I saw BG2 and Planescape were on 3&2, I was wondering what #1 would be, and I was surprised. But I do kinda see their point:
QuoteDiscussions and declarations about the difficulty of Dark Souls tend to undermine the discussions and declarations that we should be having about the quality of Dark Souls. Let's put the difficulty to one side before moving on. Dark Souls isn't the most challenging game on this list. It's not the game that will kill you the most (hello, roguelikes) and it isn't even mildly unfair. It's a game that understands the value and incline of a decent learning curve and its central rhythm of progress, death and repetition, teaches rather than tortures.
If it's not the most punishing RPG ever made, then what is it? Among other things, the Souls games are an intimidatingly assured re-invention of dungeon crawling and, in fact, the entire concept of dungeons in RPGs. Everything from enemy placement to the twisted lay of the land contributes to the challenge of the game, and to the lore that is stitched into the fabric of the world. The combat system is exemplary, combining inch-perfect animations, timings and agonising tension to make every encounter memorable. Stats are almost invisibly woven into the build of your character, whose abilities and proficiencies are recognisable at a glance, and whose behaviours you'll adopt and modify as you go, creating and fussing at the role you're playing without the need for dialogue or morality meters. There are details as well as broad strokes, for those who choose to pick at them, and those details are devilishly satisfying.
It's a mark of the game's quality that completing a single playthrough feels like a great achievement but that there are people who continue to play, time after time, and continue to learn. Dark Souls teaches you how to play as you travel through its horrors and mysteries, but it also teaches you how to read games, making you alert to the fact that every texture and scrap of flavour text can contain clues. Those clues might save your life, point you toward a diversion or shortcut, or they might help you to understand that there's meaning and history in every part of the world. You just have to look closely. Pay attention and you'll find the choices no character points out, and discover consequences whose warning signs you were keen to overlook, an optimist in a dying world.
From their comments:
QuoteYeah. I mean, to me an RPG should have, you know, some choices, with consequences, some storyline interaction. In Dark Souls you kill a lot of monsters and that's it. I mean, yeah you can kill few NPCs (sometimes by mistake, pressing wrong button, yay), but I would hope that's not the RPG standard we should strive for.
Reply:
QuoteDark Souls has a lot of choices and consequences, but it doesn't tell you they're choices or that there'll be consequences. I like that an awful lot.
Full ranking:
1. Dark Souls
2. Planescape: Torment
3. Baldur's Gate 2
4. Morrowind
5. Utima VII
6. Deus Ex
7. The Witcher 3
8. System Shock 2
9. FTL
10. Fallout
11. Dragon Age: Origins
12. Divinity: Original Sin
13. Legend of Grimrock II
14. Ultima Underworld II
15. Dwarf Fortress
16. Mass Effect 2
17. Pillars of Eternity
18. Zanbgand
19. Vampire: Bloodlines
20. NEO Scavenger
21. Deus Ex: Human Revolution
22. KOTOR
23. Anachranox
24. Fallout: New Vegas
25. Avernum: Escape From The Pit
26. UnReal World
27. Din's Curse
28. ADOM
29. Sunless Sea
30. Daggerfall
31. Banner Saga
32. Titan Quest
33. Skyrim
34. Darkest Dungeon
35. Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer
36. Shadowrun Dragonfall Director's Cut
37. Wasteland 2
38. Wizardry VIII
39. Betrayal at Krondor
40. Darklands
41. Eye of the Beholder
42. Brogue
43. Torchlight 2
44. Pool of Radiance
45. Space Rangers 2
46. Recettear: An Item's Shop Tale
47. Diablo II
48. Risen
49. Dungeon Master
50. Hand of Fate
Overall I agree with the selection of games (as representing the breadth of the genre), though I think Risen should be replaced by Gothic 2, if anything. And I guess you could argue that if you include Dark Souls, you should also include e.g. Shadows of Mordor.
Dark Alliance is missing.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 11, 2015, 01:22:48 AM
Dark Alliance is missing.
Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance? Not a PC game. Should have mentioned, RPS is a PC only site.
I've always thought Ultima V was the best of that series. Though I liked the classic Apple II graphics better than the "enhanced" PC graphics.
By VII, Richard Garriot had already started to let his ego get the best of him.
Quote from: Syt on July 11, 2015, 01:34:51 AM
Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance? Not a PC game. Should have mentioned, RPS is a PC only site.
Ah I see. Fair enough.
Happy to see Neverwinter Nights 2 making the list; I have always thought it is a very underlooked game.
The list is bullshit.
I would've hoped for Arcanum to make the cut.
No suikoden 2 ergo invalid.
Briefly looking over the list- deus ex human revolution? That was terrible, nothing on the original.
And dwarf fortress is an rpg ?
Quote from: Tyr on July 11, 2015, 04:05:16 AM
No suikoden 2 ergo invalid.
Not a PC game ergo invalid.
QuoteBriefly looking over the list- deus ex human revolution? That was terrible, nothing on the original.
Which is probably why the old game is higher on the list.
QuoteAnd dwarf fortress is an rpg ?
It has an adventure mode?
Slightly amusing there isn't any J-RPG, yet they troll us with "Recettear" (yeah, I played it too).
Quote from: Lettow77 on July 11, 2015, 02:57:03 AM
I would've hoped for Arcanum to make the cut.
I found it very disappointing. Also, isn't Dark Souls a JRPG? No Arx Fatalis, a game I had a lot of fun with.
List sucks. Dwarf Fortress? :wacko:
I know a lot see "Skyrim" as something else than a pure RPG, but 33rd? Really?
Behind "Dragon Age: Origins"?
Yeah I was going to bitch about that too Norg, but as soon as I saw Dwarf Fortress, I just plain gave up. :)
Also, if JRPGs count then Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross should be on there.
Quote from: Caliga on July 11, 2015, 12:27:14 PM
Also, if JRPGs count then Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross should be on there.
Yes, we need to make sure to list console games in a list of pc games...
There's loads of good/amusing recent games (Sunless Sea, Darkest Dungeon, FTL...) which I'm not sure will make the list in 2020, too.
But well, a list it's not a good list if you can't bitch and tear it apart.
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2015, 12:30:11 PM
Quote from: Caliga on July 11, 2015, 12:27:14 PM
Also, if JRPGs count then Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross should be on there.
Yes, we need to make sure to list console games in a list of pc games...
I'm still surprised FF VII isn't there for example. Maybe they consider it a console game despite the PC port?
Quote from: celedhring on July 11, 2015, 12:41:21 PM
There's loads of good/amusing recent games (Sunless Sea, Darkest Dungeon, FTL...) which I'm not sure will make the list in 2020, too.
But well, a list it's not a good list if you can't bitch and tear it apart.
This is true.
I can't argue with Morrowind's high position.
There definitely are some good games on the list. The ranking, however, leaves me a bit puzzled.
Quote from: Norgy on July 11, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
I know a lot see "Skyrim" as something else than a pure RPG, but 33rd? Really?
Behind "Dragon Age: Origins"?
Really? Out of all the bizarre things on that list you think DAO is one worth mentioning?
First of all they are saying Daggerfall is the better game. I mean I guess it is if you love randomized stuff. Or do you agree with that? Do you think Daggerfall is better?
But the combination of single character click fest with blobbers with Bioware style party games with strategy games like Darkest Dungeon and Dwarf Fortress are kind of :wacko:
Never really played "Daggerfall". fahdiz and several others loved it.
Yeah, I find DAO a really piss poor game.
I have the obvious fault I haven't played every game on the list.
I know you like DA games, and fair play to you for getting som mileage out of them, Valmy.
I played the shit out of Daggerfall. :wub: It was my first Elder Scrolls game.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2015, 01:21:02 PM
Quote from: Norgy on July 11, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
I know a lot see "Skyrim" as something else than a pure RPG, but 33rd? Really?
Behind "Dragon Age: Origins"?
Really? Out of all the bizarre things on that list you think DAO is one worth mentioning?
First of all they are saying Daggerfall is the better game. I mean I guess it is if you love randomized stuff. Or do you agree with that? Do you think Daggerfall is better?
But the combination of single character click fest with blobbers with Bioware style party games with strategy games like Darkest Dungeon and Dwarf Fortress are kind of :wacko:
To be frank, "RPG" has become such a vague genre that it's hard to define anymore. What defines an RPG? Stat based progression system? (that's ultimately what a pen-and-paper RPG system is) Hell, Mass Effect 2 didn't have a more complex progression system than a Far Cry game.
Quote from: celedhring on July 11, 2015, 02:36:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2015, 01:21:02 PM
Quote from: Norgy on July 11, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
I know a lot see "Skyrim" as something else than a pure RPG, but 33rd? Really?
Behind "Dragon Age: Origins"?
Really? Out of all the bizarre things on that list you think DAO is one worth mentioning?
First of all they are saying Daggerfall is the better game. I mean I guess it is if you love randomized stuff. Or do you agree with that? Do you think Daggerfall is better?
But the combination of single character click fest with blobbers with Bioware style party games with strategy games like Darkest Dungeon and Dwarf Fortress are kind of :wacko:
To be frank, "RPG" has become such a vague genre that it's hard to define anymore. What defines an RPG? Stat based progression system? (that's ultimately what a pen-and-paper RPG system is) Hell, Mass Effect 2 didn't have a more complex progression system than a Far Cry game.
I'd say Far Cry games have a lot more role playing elements than FTL.
Far Cry 4 at least had the positives of being playable and remotely fun.
Quote from: Norgy on July 11, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
Never really played "Daggerfall". fahdiz and several others loved it.
Ah ok. Yeah I played it quite a bit back in the day. Things sure were tough for Bethesda players before the internet was good enough to get timely patches. Daggerfall was the great example of buggy releases that everybody played anyway because it was such a great game.
QuoteYeah, I find DAO a really piss poor game.
I notice you tend to pronounce games bad when in fact you don't like the genre and they are not bad at all. Or at least I have seen you do that with adventure games in the past. I mean DAO is a pretty classic Bioware game and is pretty much the same game as KOTOR. But even so you know this is a highly regarded game so it should be no surprise to see it highly ranked.
QuoteI know you like DA games, and fair play to you for getting som mileage out of them, Valmy.
Well thanks I also love several of the other games ranked above Skyrim as well :P
That style of game is pretty much my bag baby.
QuoteHell, Mass Effect 2 didn't have a more complex progression system than a Far Cry game.
Mass Effect 2 is a hybrid shooter. And yeah it was pretty streamlined.
Quote from: celedhring on July 11, 2015, 02:36:33 PM
To be frank, "RPG" has become such a vague genre that it's hard to define anymore. What defines an RPG? Stat based progression system? (that's ultimately what a pen-and-paper RPG system is)
It is not so much that one is a RPG and another is not. It is just that I find it hard to believe they were really comparing apples to apples there. Those are pretty different styles of games with entirely different gameplay objectives. I mean take Torment. Gameplaywise it is pretty mediocre. Story wise it is a legend. Can you really compare that to games that are all mechanics and little to not story telling at all?
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2015, 09:38:39 PMCan you really compare that to games that are all mechanics and little to not story telling at all?
Why the hate for rogue likes? :( ;)
RPG, together with strategy, is one of the very wide genres where it's hard to draw a line around, not to mention that it's a genre that lends itself to genre mixes. E.g. FTL - I can see why some what see it as RPG (emergent story, decisions, upgrading your stuff), RPG-ish combat), and others would rather see it as strategy game.
Personally, I find genre descriptions not always useful. There'll usually be an easily identifiable core (Baldur's Gate = RPG, EU4 = Strategy, Secret of Monkey Island = Adventure etc.), but things will become frayed towards the edges. Brutal Legend mixes action RPG stuff with RTS. The Elder Scrolls games, while RPG, contain a big amount of action elements. Mass Effect 2 mixes a rich story, character interaction and player decisions with shooter combat. Mount & Blade has strategy mixed with RPG elements mixed with hack&slash fighting.
It's difficult to pigeonhole some games, and I don't mind them showing up on either list they might fit into.
Quote from: Syt on July 11, 2015, 01:34:51 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 11, 2015, 01:22:48 AM
Dark Alliance is missing.
Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance? Not a PC game. Should have mentioned, RPS is a PC only site.
Ah, explains some things.
Though.... Several of the final fantasys had pc versions.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2015, 09:08:31 PM
I notice you tend to pronounce games bad when in fact you don't like the genre and they are not bad at all. Or at least I have seen you do that with adventure games in the past. I mean DAO is a pretty classic Bioware game and is pretty much the same game as KOTOR. But even so you know this is a highly regarded game so it should be no surprise to see it highly ranked.
That probably is true.
I accept that DAO is a good game for most people. I just don't like it much myself. Maybe because I haven't given it enough time. "Skyrim", however, I plopped so many hours into and still found new stuff to explore. I like the open world, but there are lots of things to be said about the quests in that game. They were sometimes less than excellent. The main quest perhaps being the most obvious.
"Pillars of Eternity" would be brilliant if I weren't so crap at it. :lol:
I think the main difference between DAO and Skyrim is that DAO is very story focused and doesn't give you much chance to leave the path the writers have in mind for you.
Skyrim, by comparison is improv theater. The writing is much thinner, and what you do with it (or if you completely ignore it) is for the most part your choice.
In DAO encounters will shake out in broadly similar ways. In Skyrim there's a hundred ways a fight might resolve, often with unintended results, or luck shaping the outcome.
Skyrim has therefore more potential to be "your game," whereas DAO by necessity will always feel somewhat limited in your options.
Also, no Might and Magic games.
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2015, 07:07:02 AM
I think the main difference between DAO and Skyrim is that DAO is very story focused and doesn't give you much chance to leave the path the writers have in mind for you.
Skyrim, by comparison is improv theater. The writing is much thinner, and what you do with it (or if you completely ignore it) is for the most part your choice.
In DAO encounters will shake out in broadly similar ways. In Skyrim there's a hundred ways a fight might resolve, often with unintended results, or luck shaping the outcome.
Skyrim has therefore more potential to be "your game," whereas DAO by necessity will always feel somewhat limited in your options.
Those features are not really about DAO or Skyrim at all but attributes of the genres they are in. I prefer story based games but I certainly enjoy Bethesda despite their horrible writing. I am not sure by the hundreds of ways an encounter can resolve part though. I either win and take their stuff or I don't right?
Actually beyond the bad writing my main whine about Skyrim and Morrowind and Daggerfall et al is there is a sweet spot where the game is fun. Then I level up a bit and everything gets ridiculously easy. And I generally prefer party based tactical combat rather than first person single player stuff. But that is just me.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2015, 06:03:12 PM
Also, no Might and Magic games.
I was shocked to see a Wizardry game on there frankly.
Quote from: Norgy on July 12, 2015, 07:02:38 AM
"Pillars of Eternity" would be brilliant if I weren't so crap at it. :lol:
:blink:
I am a huge fan of Pillars but I fail to see how it is substantially different from DAO and its ilk.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2015, 08:42:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2015, 06:03:12 PM
Also, no Might and Magic games.
I was shocked to see a Wizardry game on there frankly.
It would help if they had more people over 30. Way to many games that came out in the last 5 years. Some, like Darkest Dungeon haven't actually come out yet. I looked at the list again, and noticed that that picture that came with Fallout, was actually Fallout 2.
I was amazed that I played nearly 20 games of that list. Who'd've guessed?
I played 32.
And yeah, there's way too many games released in the past two years which I don't think won't merit to be in that list in the long run. But at least it gives me a few names to check out (NEO Scavenger that good?)
Haven't played it in a while, but it was hard. And it had rather detailed descriptions of its combat (and it's perfectly possible to kill your opponent and then die yourself because of a bleeding you can't stop, or because you can't move much with that broken leg).
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.akamai.steamusercontent.com%2Fugc%2F450657352478709381%2F772F8890BF423B479828DCAEBC205DDED8FF3D77%2F&hash=28b6093dc51fbea72b18f8d3c979ef92d4f5c794)
(https://gamingconjecture.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/20141109_00002_thumb.jpg)
Heh, it reminds me of the MUD RPGs I played back in the 1990s :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2015, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: Norgy on July 12, 2015, 07:02:38 AM
"Pillars of Eternity" would be brilliant if I weren't so crap at it. :lol:
:blink:
I am a huge fan of Pillars but I fail to see how it is substantially different from DAO and its ilk.
Less cutscenes make Norgy happier. ;)
Quote from: Norgy on July 13, 2015, 06:09:03 AM
Less cutscenes make Norgy happier. ;)
They have cutscenes in Pillars just they are all in text :P
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2015, 12:10:04 AM
Why the hate for rogue likes? :( ;)
Just saying something is different than Torment is not to say I hate it. I mean I do but that is not necessarily true.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Planescape_companions.jpg)
:wub:
But seriously I spent many a post here spooging all over Darkest Dungeon so... :P
QuoteRPG, together with strategy, is one of the very wide genres where it's hard to draw a line around, not to mention that it's a genre that lends itself to genre mixes. E.g. FTL - I can see why some what see it as RPG (emergent story, decisions, upgrading your stuff), RPG-ish combat), and others would rather see it as strategy game.
Personally, I find genre descriptions not always useful. There'll usually be an easily identifiable core (Baldur's Gate = RPG, EU4 = Strategy, Secret of Monkey Island = Adventure etc.), but things will become frayed towards the edges. Brutal Legend mixes action RPG stuff with RTS. The Elder Scrolls games, while RPG, contain a big amount of action elements. Mass Effect 2 mixes a rich story, character interaction and player decisions with shooter combat. Mount & Blade has strategy mixed with RPG elements mixed with hack&slash fighting.
It's difficult to pigeonhole some games, and I don't mind them showing up on either list they might fit into.
I tend to lump them by the developer. At least in RPGs all the games a particular developer makes tend to be the same thing. Bethesda is almost its own genre :P
Quote from: Valmy on July 13, 2015, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2015, 12:10:04 AM
Why the hate for rogue likes? :( ;)
Just saying something is different than Torment is not to say I hate it. I mean I do but that is not necessarily true.
I may have been facetious. ;)
Quote from: Syt on July 13, 2015, 07:58:05 AM
I may have been facetious. ;)
I thought that might have been a remote possibility.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 13, 2015, 01:16:18 AM
Some, like Darkest Dungeon haven't actually come out yet.
Yeah I am looking forward to playing it again when it comes out for real.
A perverse result of early access is that a game may already be old news before it even comes out for real. But more damaging, it may already be profitable before it comes out so why finish it? I am looking at you survival games.
What can I say, Valmy, I like to read. :hug:
I know I am being an ass now. :blush:
It may all stem from disappointment. I actually quite enjoyed what I played of the last Dragon Age game.
Turn-based combat is not wrong or bad. I found I quite liked both "Silent Storm" early on, and later "Dead State", both relying on turn-based combat and sometimes impossibly hard.
And both were quite full of bugs, none more so than "Dead State". The latest patch on Steam fixed it quite well, but some issues persist.
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2015, 07:07:02 AM
I think the main difference between DAO and Skyrim is that DAO is very story focused and doesn't give you much chance to leave the path the writers have in mind for you.
Skyrim, by comparison is improv theater. The writing is much thinner, and what you do with it (or if you completely ignore it) is for the most part your choice.
In DAO encounters will shake out in broadly similar ways. In Skyrim there's a hundred ways a fight might resolve, often with unintended results, or luck shaping the outcome.
Skyrim has therefore more potential to be "your game," whereas DAO by necessity will always feel somewhat limited in your options.
I liked both games. I liked that I could do whatever I wanted in Skyrim. DA:I is closer to Skyrim than DA:O, but I felt a little too constrained at some points. In the moments you start Skyrim you get like a dozen quests where you have to go way out there in the world, while in DA:I, it's almost always constrained to the general area you're in. It remains kinda linear in that way.
But in Skyrim, I never felt I was part of a bigger story. Be it Dragonborn or Civil War, it was kinda meh. That huge civil war you keep hearing of during the game is over in 2 or 3 battles. Basically, there's no story. You just roam around and do some stuff. It's fun because it's big, there's a ton of characters, you can get married, have your house, adopt kids, but ultimately, not as fulfilling as a Dragon Age story where you are part of something, be it saving your family/friends from doom or saving the world.
Despite being low ranked in this list, one of my favorite RPG was Betrayal at Krondor. Given the limitations of the time, I think it was a wonderful game. The areas to explore were huge and you didn't always feel constrained by walls like Eye of the Beholder II.
Well the whole point of Eye of the Beholder was a feeling of being trapped, claustrophobia and all that.
Still the worst ending I have ever seen to a game.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2015, 08:40:52 PM
And I generally prefer party based tactical combat rather than first person single player stuff. But that is just me.
no, that's not just you :P
Party banter in the Dragon Age and Mass Effect 3 were sometimes pretty darn good. Isabella and Aveline in act 3 was so funny :D
In ME:3, if you bring Liara to the salarian mission, someone will say "There goes the next Shadow Broker" when a yak breaks out of his cell :D