Climate Change/Mass Extinction Megathread

[Admiral Yi]

... and holding oil companies responsible for their malfeance may be an effective part of such disincentives; much more so than repeating "you know you could decide to by an electrical stove if you really cared."

I don't know what this means.  It kinda sounds like heaping the blame on oil companies.

[The Larch]

Yi, are you doing this pro bono or are you on Exxon's payroll? You could make a small fortune out of it.

[mongers]

Yi, are you doing this pro bono or are you on Exxon's payroll? You could make a small fortune out of it.

I don't think that's at all fair and misrepresents his position.

[Jacob]

I don't know what this means.  It kinda sounds like heaping the blame on oil companies.

Is your focus on "not heaping the blame on oil companies" because:

1) ... you don't think they actually did anything blameworthy?

2) ... you think that while they did do blameworhty stuff, the significance pales in comparison to individuals not making every effort to personally cut their carbon footprint as consumers?

3) ... because while they may or may not have done blameworthy things that doesn't matter. What matters is what we do next to deal with this crisis?

4) ... some other reason (I'd like to understand)?

[Admiral Yi]

Is your focus on "not heaping the blame on oil companies" because:

1) ... you don't think they actually did anything blameworthy?

2) ... you think that while they did do blameworhty stuff, the significance pales in comparison to individuals not making every effort to personally cut their carbon footprint as consumers?

3) ... because while they may or may not have done blameworthy things that doesn't matter. What matters is what we do next to deal with this crisis?

4) ... some other reason (I'd like to understand)?

Because I object to the political left's agenda to demonize for profit business.

Because I think it is a logical fallacy assign all the blame for climate change to big oil when at the very least it is a two part process: one actor to drill and pump oil and another to burn it.  It whitewashes the consumer and could lead to the thinking that if big oil (or small oil for that matter) is sufficiently punished climate change will be magically solved.

At some point the great unwashed masses will have to experience pain, shortage, inconvenience and higher cost in order to fix climate change.

[The Minsky Moment]

Seems to me both the addict and the pusher bear some responsibility.  And attaching some level of opprobrium to the pusher is not equivalent to a broad condemnation of all for profit business enterprise.

[Grey Fox]

Is your focus on "not heaping the blame on oil companies" because:

1) ... you don't think they actually did anything blameworthy?

2) ... you think that while they did do blameworhty stuff, the significance pales in comparison to individuals not making every effort to personally cut their carbon footprint as consumers?

3) ... because while they may or may not have done blameworthy things that doesn't matter. What matters is what we do next to deal with this crisis?

4) ... some other reason (I'd like to understand)?

Because I object to the political left's agenda to demonize for profit business.

Because I think it is a logical fallacy assign all the blame for climate change to big oil when at the very least it is a two part process: one actor to drill and pump oil and another to burn it.  It whitewashes the consumer and could lead to the thinking that if big oil (or small oil for that matter) is sufficiently punished climate change will be magically solved.

At some point the great unwashed masses will have to experience pain, shortage, inconvenience and higher cost in order to fix climate change.

It's not an attempt, it's a cold statement of fact.

[Admiral Yi]

It's not an attempt, it's a cold statement of fact.

By amazing coincidence, so is my position.

[Josquius]

You keep saying placing all blame on big business. I think we've all been explicit numerous times that nobody is saying its all their fault and that blame is shared.

However it is beyond doubt they take a huge amount of the responsibility for climate change from various angles  and are in a powerful position to act to tackle it if they could just think long term.

You need to look beyond ideology here.

[Admiral Yi]

You keep saying placing all blame on big business. I think we've all been explicit numerous times that nobody is saying its all their fault and that blame is shared.

However it is beyond doubt they take a huge amount of the responsibility for climate change from various angles  and are in a powerful position to act to tackle it if they could just think long term.

You need to look beyond ideology here.

I was responding to Syt's cartoon originally.  I didn't catch a lot of shared blame from that cartoon.

I don't see how oil companies are in any kind of special position to tackle climate change other than ceasing operations.

[Josquius]

You keep saying placing all blame on big business. I think we've all been explicit numerous times that nobody is saying its all their fault and that blame is shared.

However it is beyond doubt they take a huge amount of the responsibility for climate change from various angles  and are in a powerful position to act to tackle it if they could just think long term.

You need to look beyond ideology here.

I was responding to Syt's cartoon originally.  I didn't catch a lot of shared blame from that cartoon.

I don't see how oil companies are in any kind of special position to tackle climate change other than ceasing operations.

It is possible to talk about one topic without mentioning that other topics exist.

And the fossil fuel companies are amazingly well placed to pivot their operations. They're already doing this to some extent, albeit a lot more green washing than actual action.

[Admiral Yi]

It is possible to talk about one topic without mentioning that other topics exist.

This is classic arguing in the alternative.  You say no one is saying place all the blame on oil companies.  I point out someone who by appearances does place all blame on the oil companies.  Then you say that doesn't matter.

And the fossil fuel companies are amazingly well placed to pivot their operations. They're already doing this to some extent, albeit a lot more green washing than actual action.

I didn't see the advantages they have the first time you made the assertion, and I don't see the advantages now that you've repeated the assertion.

[Josquius]

It is possible to talk about one topic without mentioning that other topics exist.

This is classic arguing in the alternative.  You say no one is saying place all the blame on oil companies.  I point out someone who by appearances does place all blame on the oil companies.  Then you say that doesn't matter.

Thats not what anyone has said at all.
You said the comic is placing all the blame on the oil companies.
I pointed out you can talk about how something is a problem without that meaning you believe its the only problem.

I didn't see the advantages they have the first time you made the assertion, and I don't see the advantages now that you've repeated the assertion.

The continuance of civilization some would argue is a quite nice advantage.

[Admiral Yi]

Thats not what anyone has said at all.
You said the comic is placing all the blame on the oil companies.
I pointed out you can talk about how something is a problem without that meaning you believe its the only problem.

Fair enough.  I see the cartoon as blaming only the oil companies.  I'm happy to agree to disagree on that.

The continuance of civilization some would argue is a quite nice advantage.

I meant the advantages oil companies have in switching to something that mitigates climate change.

[Josquius]

Thats not what anyone has said at all.
You said the comic is placing all the blame on the oil companies.
I pointed out you can talk about how something is a problem without that meaning you believe its the only problem.

Fair enough.  I see the cartoon as blaming only the oil companies.  I'm happy to agree to disagree on that.

The continuance of civilization some would argue is a quite nice advantage.

I meant the advantages oil companies have in switching to something that mitigates climate change.

Civilization is quite a necessity for having customers and long term profits.
Plus all the people running the company live on Earth.
And then there's politics turning against them- they can either go with it or continue their rear guard fighting.