Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Jacob]

The rocket attacks have nothing to do with the Israeli right's violence against the Palestinians in the West Bank.  The very existence of Palestinians between the river and the sea angers and disgusts them.

Yeah... saw a video yesterday of masked (and armed) Israeli settlers walking around in a Palestinian area destroying things (cars, parts of people's homes etc), beating random civilians, etc. Seemed like it was all about terrorizing Palestinians and nothing else.

[Razgovory]

The solution would presumably be economic growth and better education in muslim states in general. As long as the people are poor and uneducated and without hope extremist solutions will have a target audience. If PLO had been able to deliver jobs, education and the promise of a better future Hamas would never have been elected.

Can't really see that happening in any kind of realistic way.

And how would you deal with the ultra right in Israel?

Stop the rocket attacks.

I'm not sure how that stops the ultra right for wanting to continue to build settlements.  Perhaps you could connect those dots for me.

Trying to kill Israelis pushes them to the far-right.  If the Palestinians stopped their psychotic murderousness people would be less willing to tolerate the Ultra-right.

[Threviel]

Both sides have plenty of ass-holes. The actions of the settlers and the direct and indirect support from the Israeli state is nothing short of despicable.

That's where the magic comes in. It would probably take magic to get a two-state solution since both sides are so thoroughly dug in.

[crazy canuck]

Both sides have plenty of ass-holes. The actions of the settlers and the direct and indirect support from the Israeli state is nothing short of despicable.

That's where the magic comes in. It would probably take magic to get a two-state solution since both sides are so thoroughly dug in.

I agree entirely. And sadly I think we are at least two generations away from a solution.

[viper37]

The solution would presumably be economic growth and better education in muslim states in general. As long as the people are poor and uneducated and without hope extremist solutions will have a target audience. If PLO had been able to deliver jobs, education and the promise of a better future Hamas would never have been elected.

Can't really see that happening in any kind of realistic way.

And how would you deal with the ultra right in Israel?

Stop the rocket attacks.

I'm not sure how that stops the ultra right for wanting to continue to build settlements.  Perhaps you could connect those dots for me.

Trying to kill Israelis pushes them to the far-right.  If the Palestinians stopped their psychotic murderousness people would be less willing to tolerate the Ultra-right.

Yeah sure.  Like Americans.  They are driven to the far right by murderous rapist Mexicans.  That's what pushes them to the MAGA GOP.

[Tamas]

Egypt is building a buffer zone near the border with concrete walls and such to make sure Palestinians won't overflow into Egypt. Grim.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Egypt is building a buffer zone near the border with concrete walls and such to make sure Palestinians won't overflow into Egypt. Grim.

You probably won't hear the protesters about that so it's okay.

[Josquius]

Egypt is building a buffer zone near the border with concrete walls and such to make sure Palestinians won't overflow into Egypt. Grim.

You probably won't hear the protesters about that so it's okay.

I can see what you're doing here. Trying play the old game of people looking out for Palestinian human rights are just looking for an excuse to be anti semitic.

Egypt obviously hasn't been the main problem with Gazas pre war status but it has still attracted a lot of criticism.
I'd be very surprised if Egypt didn't get criticism for this move given they will be seen as more likely to change their mind than Israel.
Israel does remain the core problem as they have the power to totally stop the humanitarian disaster if it wanted. They're the ones actually dropping bombs.

[Tamas]

Egypt is building a buffer zone near the border with concrete walls and such to make sure Palestinians won't overflow into Egypt. Grim.

You probably won't hear the protesters about that so it's okay.

I can see what you're doing here. Trying play the old game of people looking out for Palestinian human rights are just looking for an excuse to be anti semitic.

Egypt obviously hasn't been the main problem with Gazas pre war status but it has still attracted a lot of criticism.
I'd be very surprised if Egypt didn't get criticism for this move given they will be seen as more likely to change their mind than Israel.
Israel does remain the core problem as they have the power to totally stop the humanitarian disaster if it wanted. They're the ones actually dropping bombs.

I guess we'll see on the next London protest how many will be calling for Egypt to help the civilians.

But I do agree that considering Egypt is closing all escape routes, the right thing for Israel to do is to not launch the planned offensive.

What they should do is enact a siege and publish the list of Hamas leaders who need to turn themselves in to Israel for the siege to be lifted.

[Threviel]

Israel is not the only ones able to stop the war. Hamas can surrender and the humanitarian disaster is over tomorrow.

[Josquius]

Israel is not the only ones able to stop the war. Hamas can surrender and the humanitarian disaster is over tomorrow.

I really don't think this is true.
If Hamas announces henceforth it surrenders (how? Have Israel given them that option?) You'd still get plenty of senior Hamas members and other associated  people not keen on handing themselves over to the Israeli military.
It would ultimately have to be Israel's decision that Hamas is beaten enough to stop.

[Tamas]

Israel is not the only ones able to stop the war. Hamas can surrender and the humanitarian disaster is over tomorrow.

I really don't think this is true.
If Hamas announces henceforth it surrenders (how? Have Israel given them that option?) You'd still get plenty of senior Hamas members and other associated  people not keen on handing themselves over to the Israeli military.
It would ultimately have to be Israel's decision that Hamas is beaten enough to stop.

Surrender is always possible. They choose not to, as you point out. Their own life and/or notion to resist until Israel is driven to the sea is more important to them than their own population. It's a legit stance. But then the side who is the target of the sea-driving doesn't hold responsibility on their own if they decide not to allow for these people to live.

But, again, in this specific situation I do think Israel should stop and start a siege to attain the surrender.

[Threviel]

Time is not on Israels side, forced starvation will turn everyone on them. Hamas knows this, it's in their interest to draw everything out as long as possible. Suffering of civilians is their primary weapon.

[OttoVonBismarck]

You can definitely feel the many supporters of Hamas (which includes most leftists in Europe and America, probably half the governments of the EU, most of the governments of the Middle East, and most of the UN's bureaucracy) getting terribly worried Hamas is imminently going to lose its last stronghold.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Time is not on Israels side, forced starvation will turn everyone on them. Hamas knows this, it's in their interest to draw everything out as long as possible. Suffering of civilians is their primary weapon.

I think Israel's only good option is to begin the Rafah clearing operations within the next month, they need to conduct it more like Khan Younis than they did North Gaza--the Israelis burned through a lot of international good will with the very aggressive bombing campaign in the North. It is also likely why they pushed so much of Hamas out of the North so quickly, but more infantry-based clearing operations like they utilized in Khan Younis will produce much lower civilian casualties--but certainly higher IDF casualties.