Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

Wait, has this level of violence become normalized to the point that Raz can defend a position that this happens all the time, and BB corrects him by saying it goes both ways.

[Jacob]

I think BB was pointing out the weakness of Raz statement, in that it is not really appropriate to lump in the Hamas attack into a genereal "Gaza attacks Israel all the time" category - just like it's not really appropriate to lump the current Israeli campaign in with previous actions.

[crazy canuck]

I think BB was pointing out the weakness of Raz statement, in that it is not really appropriate to lump in the Hamas attack into a genereal "Gaza attacks Israel all the time" category - just like it's not really appropriate to lump the current Israeli campaign in with previous actions.

Interesting, I thought he was saying all the dates Raz listed were all justified because "Gaza" does it all the time too.

also, note the shift of language which has occurred.  It's not HAMAS, its Gaza.  That gets around the troubling detail of the allegation of collective punishment being a war crime.

[Jacob]

Communication is hard 

[Barrister]

I think BB was pointing out the weakness of Raz statement, in that it is not really appropriate to lump in the Hamas attack into a genereal "Gaza attacks Israel all the time" category - just like it's not really appropriate to lump the current Israeli campaign in with previous actions.

Both October 7, 2023 - and the Israeli response - are not at all of a kind of the normalized, routine violence of the prior 20 years.

[Grey Fox]

Wait, has this level of violence become normalized to the point that Raz can defend a position that this happens all the time, and BB corrects him by saying it goes both ways.

Well, yeah. It's not because Egypt, Syria & Lebanon stayed out of this iteration that this isn't just one more Israel-Arab war. Arabs will lose again.

[Razgovory]

Wait, has this level of violence become normalized to the point that Raz can defend a position that this happens all the time, and BB corrects him by saying it goes both ways.

The cries of genocide have indeed become normalized.  Don't cry wolf.

[crazy canuck]

Wait, has this level of violence become normalized to the point that Raz can defend a position that this happens all the time, and BB corrects him by saying it goes both ways.

The cries of genocide have indeed become normalized.  Don't cry wolf.

Let's make sure we have a common frame of reference because I think you likely have in mind a different definition of the word.

Under the UN convention here is the definition:

genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Under this definition a genocide can be committed even if, as you put it, some of the group survive.

As you will know, the UN court process has stopped short of declaring that Israel has committed genocide, but it has ordered that Israel use its best efforts to prevent it from occurring. 

That is a practical decision because giving Israel a chance to moderate its behaviour now will likely save Palestinian lives.

I know of no other time when a court has said Israel has come close to the line of committing genocide and so I am a bit surprised by someone claiming this sort of thing happens all the time.

[Razgovory]

And nobody has claimed genocide before that?

[crazy canuck]

And nobody has claimed genocide before that?

Perhaps, but I don't recall the claim being treated as having a great deal of validity until now.

[Jacob]

Both October 7, 2023 - and the Israeli response - are not at all of a kind of the normalized, routine violence of the prior 20 years.

Agreed.

[Josquius]

So this is a interesting event.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/05/uk-professor-suffered-discrimination-due-to-anti-zionist-beliefs-tribunal-rules?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Unexpected someone would actually manage to win such a case given the general view in the country today.

[Sheilbh]

So this is a interesting event.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/05/uk-professor-suffered-discrimination-due-to-anti-zionist-beliefs-tribunal-rules?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Unexpected someone would actually manage to win such a case given the general view in the country today.

I think it's the wrong decision. But it's consistent - there's beem a lot of cases. It's unlawful to discriminate against someone on the basis of their political or philosophical views, unless those views are "not worthy of respect in a democratic society" and the courts have viewed that as a very high bar.

Also not sure this is necessarily going against the "general view in the country" when an MP and former minister of the constituency with the largest Jewish population has announced he won't be running for election again due to threats against him and his family and an arson attack on his constituency office.

[Barrister]

I think BB was pointing out the weakness of Raz statement, in that it is not really appropriate to lump in the Hamas attack into a genereal "Gaza attacks Israel all the time" category - just like it's not really appropriate to lump the current Israeli campaign in with previous actions.

Both October 7, 2023 - and the Israeli response - are not at all of a kind of the normalized, routine violence of the prior 20 years.

I should say - I used the world "normalized" but more as descriptive, not proscriptive.  The world had gotten used to low-level violence between Gaza and Israel - not that we should have normalized and accepted it.

[Sheilbh]

I should say - I used the world "normalized" but more as descriptive, not proscriptive.  The world had gotten used to low-level violence between Gaza and Israel - not that we should have normalized and accepted it.

Agree - and that's how I read what you said too.