Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Gups]

Does Hamas want to keep fighting Israel or start talking peace?
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/11/30/does-hamas-want-to-keep-fighting-israel-or-start-talking-peace
from The Economist

This is the article I was thinking of.

[Gups]

"What happens in the coming weeks and months depends mainly on how much deeper and longer Israel's offensive goes into Gaza and how much of Hamas it is able to destroy. But it also depends on high-stakes struggles within Hamas: between a radical wing in Gaza and more moderate elements in exile in Qatar and Lebanon; between those aligned closely with Iran and its "axis of resistance" and those wanting closer ties with Arab governments; and crucially over whether to implicitly recognise Israel or to keep fighting to exterminate it. Who wins these arguments will affect whether a peace deal based on a Palestinian state alongside Israel can ever materialise.

...

After Hamas unexpectedly found itself responsible for governing Gaza and shunned by some states in the region, moderate factions within the group began to push for a change in its policies. Khaled Meshal (pictured, top left), previously the head of the group's political wing in exile, had been trying to align the group with Sunni Arab states in the region and break it away from its alliance with Iran and Syria. In 2012 he moved the Hamas headquarters out of Damascus, Syria's capital, after President Bashar al-Assad had massacred Sunni rebels and violently repressed the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2017 Mr Meshal pushed through a new Hamas charter, dropping much of the previous one's anti-Semitic language. Above all, it endorsed a Palestinian state inside the territories Israel conquered in 1967—that is Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank—though it stopped short of recognising Israel.

But Mr Meshal was supplanted by a more radical and pro-Iranian camp that emerged largely from Hamas's military command to assume the group's political leadership. It espoused a vision of a Palestinian state stretching "from the river to the sea", says Baraa Nizar Rayan, a writer with close ties to the movement, based in Qatar. Influential in this faction are Yahya Sinwar, its political and military leader in Gaza, and Saleh al-Arouri, Hamas's representative in Beirut who previously commanded the Qassam Brigades, Hamas's armed wing (both pictured bottom right and left respectively). Mr Sinwar had signed up to the new charter, but became more extreme after it failed to lead to a political settlement with Israel, Hamas people say. The attack on October 7th marked the ascendancy of the extremists. "It has proved that the only language Israel understands is force," argues Azzam Tamimi, a sympathetic historian. "Peacemaking with Israel gets them nowhere.""

[Jacob]

Thank you.

[Sheilbh]

Rather alarming reports on the shooting of three Israeli hostages.

The hostages were shirtless and waving a red flag when a soldier opened fire and killed two of them, shouting "terrorists". Another soldier killed the third after the commander - at that position - had given a ceasefire order.

[viper37]

While I don't care much for your hyperbole, it does raise questions about their ROE.

At some point, you will have to face the truth about Israel as a country and the IDF as an army.  It's not an isolated incident, and it's making waves because they were Israeli hostages.  They can't use their usual bullshit that they were terrorists.

[viper37]

Rather alarming reports on the shooting of three Israeli hostages.

The hostages were shirtless and waving a red flag when a soldier opened fire and killed two of them, shouting "terrorists". Another soldier killed the third after the commander - at that position - had given a ceasefire order.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/3-hostages-in-gaza-killed-by-friendly-fire-israeli-military-says/

Tamas disapprove of my comments on this.  But it's SOP for the IDF to shoot first and ask questions later.  Only this time, they can't pretend they were terrorists.

[Admiral Yi]

What questions would you ask a person who emerges from a building 10 meters from you in a combat zone?

[OttoVonBismarck]

While I don't care much for your hyperbole, it does raise questions about their ROE.

At some point, you will have to face the truth about Israel as a country and the IDF as an army.  It's not an isolated incident, and it's making waves because they were Israeli hostages.  They can't use their usual bullshit that they were terrorists.

In a long thread in which you have posted non-stop stupid things, this may be the stupidest. This kind of shooting is entirely "typical" of soldiers in an actual war zone, and someone continuing to fire for a bit after an officer tells them to stop shooting is also entirely typical of what goes on in an actual war.

This is true across largely any conflict that has ever been fought, from the most lionized and "noble" military powers to the most reviled.

The U.S. literally killed hundreds of its own people across the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Shit fucking happens in war. No incident involving 3 people is anywhere near justification to make sweeping assumptions about the entire IDF as you have stupidly done here (which again--is further evidence of your virulent, extreme, and unrepentant hatred for Jews, as you are an antisemite and a pro-Hamas agent.)

[viper37]

While I don't care much for your hyperbole, it does raise questions about their ROE.

At some point, you will have to face the truth about Israel as a country and the IDF as an army.  It's not an isolated incident, and it's making waves because they were Israeli hostages.  They can't use their usual bullshit that they were terrorists.

In a long thread in which you have posted non-stop stupid things, this may be the stupidest. This kind of shooting is entirely "typical" of soldiers in an actual war zone, and someone continuing to fire for a bit after an officer tells them to stop shooting is also entirely typical of what goes on in an actual war.

This is true across largely any conflict that has ever been fought, from the most lionized and "noble" military powers to the most reviled.

The U.S. literally killed hundreds of its own people across the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Shit fucking happens in war. No incident involving 3 people is anywhere near justification to make sweeping assumptions about the entire IDF as you have stupidly done here (which again--is further evidence of your virulent, extreme, and unrepentant hatred for Jews, as you are an antisemite and a pro-Hamas agent.)

Killing Palestinians is not enough to give you a little boost during your day, you got to rejoice when the IDF is killing Israeli Jewish citizens too?

[DGuller]

So what you're implying is that IDF is shooting everyone in Gaza they come across?

[Josquius]

What questions would you ask a person who emerges from a building 10 meters from you in a combat zone?

Can you put your hands in the air and lie down on the ground?

[Admiral Yi]

Can you put your hands in the air and lie down on the ground?

good luck.

[Sheilbh]

What questions would you ask a person who emerges from a building 10 meters from you in a combat zone?

The IDF statement was that they came out of a building tens of metres away - so under 100m but more than 10m.

They were shirtless and waving a white flag. Two were shot very promptly as "terrorists". The third was shot after the commander - at that post - had given a ceasefire order.

At the very least, it doesn't suggest a military force that's operating with much discipline.

[Josephus]

I don't know if they've always been like that or if it's the result of years under Bibi that turned the IDF into this.  They were prone stand by and let others do the killing during the war in Lebanon, but nowadays, it seems they take pleasure in shooting unarmed civilians.

And of course, anyone who dares question Israel is a racist.

Probably panicky reservists?

[Admiral Yi]

The IDF statement was that they came out of a building tens of metres away - so under 100m but more than 10m.

They were shirtless and waving a white flag. Two were shot very promptly as "terrorists". The third was shot after the commander - at that post - had given a ceasefire order.

At the very least, it doesn't suggest a military force that's operating with much discipline.

Do you have any reason to believe that disciplined militaries immediately cease fire the second the order is given?

I am basing my belief that fire petering out after a cease fire order is pretty standard is based solely on Hollywood movies so if you have a better source I'm willing to stand corrected.