Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

I thought this was useful.  https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

[Admiral Yi]

https://jewishstudies.washington.edu/israel-hebrew/why-israel-isnt-a-settler-colonial-state/

They claim it isn't a colonial state. But their evidence clearly shows its history is as one with the settlers themselves considering it colonialism.
The basis under which these guys claim it isn't is that it wasn't for the benefit of a metropole. Which seems a chronic misunderstanding of colonialist motivations.

Well, the text in your link says the early settlers thought of themselves as colonists, not as partaking in colonialism.

I concede the limited point that early settlers can fairly be called colonists.  Much like the Volga Germans for example.  They were organized, they presumably wanted a home in which they could maintain their culture and identity.

The problem then becomes your effortless pivot from that point to the crimes committed.  Traditional white colonists engaged in a number of crimes, well documented.  Just calling the Jewish settlers colonists doesn't make them guilty of those same crimes.

[Jacob]

Interesting.

Seems like Hamas has strong support (with caveats for whether people feel safe to answer honestly), but that their support is stronger on the West Bank (61.9% very positive and 5.6% very negative) vs the Gaza Strip (28.9% very positive  and 22.7% very negative).

Fewer people support the Hamas attack on Oct 7th on the Gaza Strip (a bit more than 70% either extremely or somewhat support the attacks) than on the West Bank (more than 80%), but in both cases the more than half.

More than 70% of the population on both territories support "a Palestinian State from the river to the sea" over a two state solution, or a one state multiethnic one.

Assuming the data is good, of course.

[Razgovory]

My guess is that Hamas is better liked when it is far away and fighting the Jews.  Less so when it is near and oppresses people.

[Admiral Yi]

Table 31 is interesting.  A plurality think the babies were roasted to "stop the violations of Aqsa."

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The problem is "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" has a pretty obvious and literal meaning as well - that a country of Palestine should exist in the entire territory of Israel and the occupied territories.

I'm pretty sure the Muslims/Palestinians/Lefty Western Patsies would rather use "Juden raus" but that might be a bit too obvious as to what they want.

A land free of what?

of jews of course.

[Tamas]

So Albanians becoming tbe majority in Kosovo was colonialism as well for example?

[viper37]

Table 31 is interesting.  A plurality think the babies were roasted to "stop the violations of Aqsa."

I do not think the question was phrased in that way. :roll:
Please take note of how the first question is phrased.


Also, given Abbas recent comments about Israel attacking its own people at the music festival with attack helicopters, I am uncertain as to the extent of the beliefs that Hamas committed the worst of the crimes it is accused of.  Conspiracy theories run wild in these part of the world, especially when it touches Israel and Jewish people. 

Hamas still denies attacking civilians, I believe.  Lots of people there would believe them.  Even here in Canada, there are Muslims who would consider Hamas as a simple resistance movement and refuse to label it as a terrorist organization.  But we've discussed the problem of Muslim charities before.

Anyway.  It's what Bibi wanted.  Hamas is an asset after all.  What kind of asset roasts babies I do not know, but you shall have to ask him and the members of his government.

[viper37]

So Albanians becoming tbe majority in Kosovo was colonialism as well for example?

I'm not familiar enough with the antique and medieval history of Kosovo to discuss this.  I've no idea of the number of Albanoi in Kosovo compared to other Illyrian tribes before the Roman conquest of the territory.  I do not know how the Hunnic and Slavic invasions changed the cultural landscape of the area. I do not think there is an historical or archeological consensus either on the origins of the modern Albanians, so I feel it's kinda pointless to talk about colonialism here?  These people seem to have been there for a while, no?  Do you consider modern French to be colonists?  I'm not sure I would categorize all of them as descendants of the Gauls.  Nor are modern day people of Norwich the descendants of the Icenis.

In any case, I would strongly argue against anyone killing or forcefully displacing Albanians from Kosovo today.

At some point in time, people stop being colonists.  And no, I don't know when that happens, when we stop referring to people as settlers or colonists.  I would not define myself as a settler or colonist, by my first ancestors to come in this country certainly where.  Their intentions was to lay the base for a new society, with new rules, New France.

[viper37]

We certainly didn't fight any wars with the local inhabitants in order to assert ownership.

Not as bad as the US, but still false.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_of_the_Indigenous_peoples_of_North_America

It involved mostly the colony of B-C, since Canada did not yet extend there and our process was different from the US.  But there were armed conflicts.

Also, during the Great Sioux War, Sitting Bull was granted refuge in Canada, but then left to starve and forced to surrender in the US.

[Barrister]

Only if you believe Palestinian freedom is somehow connected to Israelis not being free.

Purely just looking at the words themselves saying a land should be free is pretty uncontroversial.

Parse the words themselves.

The saying is not "From the river to the sea, PALESTINIANS will be free".

No, they chant "From the river to the sea, PALESTINE will be free".

I trust you can see the distinction.

But in any event, I didn't so much want to debate those words.  I conceded some may have a less menacing and genocidal usage when they say those words.  You could have an interesting article on the phrase.

I more wanted to call attention to how badly one-sided that CBC article was.

[Jacob]

This just in: Ceasefire agreed. 4 days. 50 Israeli women and children hostages exchanged for 150 Palestinian women and children prisoners. Resupplies also to be admitted to Gaza. Possibility of longer ceasefire - 1 day for every 10 hostages freed.

Ratified by the Israeli government via vote. Opponents have 24 hours to appeal to the Supreme Court, apparently.

[HVC]

Wait, why does Israel have women and children prisoners? These criminals, or just sweeped up?

[Barrister]

Wait, why does Israel have women and children prisoners? These criminals, or just sweeped up?

So I have no precise knowledge other than to say that Hamas has never shied away from using women and children as suicide bombers.

[HVC]

Wait, why does Israel have women and children prisoners? These criminals, or just sweeped up?

So I have no precise knowledge other than to say that Hamas has never shied away from using women and children as suicide bombers.

Doesn't the nature of that particular crime preclude being made a prisoner, what with the blowing oneself up?