Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

Blinken is an idiot.  Questionning Israel's military strategy like that without having their exact targeting coordinates?  How dare he?

BIden gave a 100% full-throated support to Israel Immediately after October 7.  For me that was amazing to see, but didn't go down well with certain parts of his party.  So for internal political reasons he's had to be a bit more nuanced.  I think Bibi and Israel "get that".

We all know they are strictly attacking military targets and any collateral damage is the result of Hamas using human shields.

I mean - I assume that's what they're doing.  But as you know certain people do not necessarily give Israel the benefit of the doubt on such matters.

In other news, at the end of October, Hamas proposed a 5 day truce in exchange for the release of 50 hostages, which was flatly refused by Israel.

I don't know if they should have negotiated something more, but it seems to me that, despite Hamas being untrustworthy, some more exploration should have been made in this sense.

As it is now, there's a huge risk of there being 240 more victims.   I don't know, maybe some proof of life should have been asked at least.

The Guardian link

I don't like to second guess leaders in moments of crisis like this.  There may have been god reasons to turn down such a proposal.  But if it literally was "5 day pause in return for 50 hostages" that sounds like a good deal for Israel.  I was expecting more like "we'll return the hostages in exchange for 100s of Hamas prisoners being released", which would only encourage more hostage taking by Hamas.

1) There's a lot more than simple politics at play here.  This isn't the first time Israel and Palestinians are at war, and no matter the government, there has always been 100% public support from the US, even under Obama.

2) I don't think they care that much if it's military or not.  They consider all Palestinians to be complicit of Hamas and there is ample evidence of that by what is happening in the West Bank since Oct 7th.  Whenever a target is hit that is obviously civilian, they often have trouble saying what was the intended target to begin with.

3) It's the rejection out of hand bit that bothers me most.  50 hostages for 5 days seems like a good base to start negotiations.  Wasn't this war about getting back the hostages too?  I don't have faith in this government like you do.

[viper37]

The Israelis have surrounded Al-Shifa hospital.  That's probably why Hamas has asked for a ceasefire.

They asked for a cease-fire 2 weeks ago.

[viper37]

OvB is gonna be pissed off at Netanyahu for committing blood libel at Israel.
Grumbler is going to be angry too.
Yi and Tamas are gonna be so mad.

And here I though it was delusional to insist this whole war had the goal of expanding Israel territory into Gaza.

Netanyahu says IDF will control Gaza after war, rejects notion of international force

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Friday the IDF will remain in control of the Gaza Strip after the current war ends, and will not rely on international forces to oversee security along the border.

Netanyahu made the comments in a meeting with the mayors of Gaza border towns at IDF headquarters in Tel Aviv. The local leaders oversee many of the communities that were assaulted and had their residents murdered and kidnapped in Hamas's October 7 massacres of southern communities. Others have faced daily barrages of rockets from Gaza over the past month, and many communities have been evacuated as Israel presses ahead in its military campaign, leaving tens of thousands internally displaced.

"IDF forces will remain in control of the Strip, we will not give it to international forces," Netanyahu said, according to a readout from his spokesperson, not saying whether it would do so for the short or long term.

Netanyahu and his government have been vague on what they envision for Gaza after the war. Only hours earlier the premier told Fox News that Israel does not want to re-occupy or govern the Strip. Earlier this week, Netanyahu told ABC News that Israel will have "overall security responsibility" over the Gaza Strip "for an indefinite period" after the war against Hamas ends.

US officials have raised the possibility in recent weeks that an international force, possibly with troops from neighboring Arab allies, could manage security in the Strip for an interim period until it can be returned to a functioning Palestinian government, which Washington hopes will be the Palestinian Authority.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Wednesday called on Israel not to reoccupy the Strip once its war with Hamas ends.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas reiterated on Friday that the PA is ready to retake control of Gaza, but said that would only happen if the move is part of a comprehensive political solution that includes a Palestinian state established along the 1967 borders. The PA leader made the same pledge on Sunday during a meeting in Ramallah with Blinken.

He also repeated his allegations that Israel is carrying out "genocide" in Gaza as it battles Hamas there, and called for an international peace conference to provide "international guarantees" and a timetable to end Israeli control of the Palestinian territories.

The group meeting between Netanyahu and local leaders was his first since the October 7 attacks by Hamas terrorists, which saw some 1,400 people killed, most of them civilians, and over 240 abducted to Gaza.

The prime minister had come under fire for waiting over a month to meet the local leaders, criticism that intensified this week as he met settlement mayors before sitting down with the municipal heads of the area devastated by Hamas.

The mayors told Netanyahu they want a different security reality after the war is over and urged him not to agree to a ceasefire until all Gaza terrorists are eliminated, the statement from the premier's spokesperson said. They also called for a robust government support program to support their communities as the fighting continues.

Netanyahu said in a statement: "There is a great determination by [the residents] and the government to restore things to an even better state than before. To rehabilitate, to build, to grow. And first of all to bring back security, to ensure there is no Hamas and that Hamas does not return, but also to ensure there is strong life [in the communities] afterward."

Sderot mayor Alon Davidi told Army Radio ahead of the meeting on Friday: "The State of Israel is the one that brought our great enemy upon us... the leadership brought us to this place."

Among the local leaders in the south are a number of figures influential in Netanyahu's Likud party, where the prime minister has faced growing criticism for the government's failures that led to the October 7 attacks as well as those that have followed — in the slow pace of financial and other aid to affected communities.

Netanyahu is the only senior Israeli official who has refused to make a full-throated admission of responsibility for the horrors of the Hamas attacks, and is likely to face growing calls to depart office once the war ends or abates.

They need some room for their Indian workers and the new wave of Jewish immigrants to Israel this mess will encourage.

Next up: the West Bank.  There are still some Palestinians to clear over there.

[Threviel]

Hamas being entirely untrustworthy is reason enough. There's no exploration to be done with an enemy already known, the Israelis know what they are dealing with and the worth of any negotiations.

[viper37]

Hamas being entirely untrustworthy is reason enough. There's no exploration to be done with an enemy already known, the Israelis know what they are dealing with and the worth of any negotiations.

It's not "the Israelis" who took the decision, it's that guy:

Rallies organized by Likud and other right-wing groups featured depictions of Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform, or in the crosshairs of a gun.^[2][3] Protesters compared the Labor party to the Nazis and Rabin to Adolf Hitler^[5] and chanted, "Rabin is a murderer" and "Rabin is a traitor".^[8][9] In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".^[10][11] The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.^[8][12] Netanyahu denied any intention to incite violence.^[2][3][13]

Enemies on the outside, enemies on the inside, it's tough to live that life.  Maybe he should retire to a nice little villa in Saudi Arabia?  He has new friends over there...

[Jacob]

Nethanyahu is scum.

[crazy canuck]

The only thing that stopped them was the Allies invading. I don't know if it was less than 1944, but if it was it was only because the war ended in May.

But that's what I'm saying, the invasion stopped the killing.
OvB tries to ridicule my position like I'm saying there should be 0 civilian casualties.

Groups like that should not be allowed to grow, simply.  And then, civilians shouldn't pay the price because we let them grow thinking it's a brilliant move.

The way not to let them grow is military action.

Paradoxically that might actually guarantee rapid growth over longer periods of time.

What will almost certainly reduce the chances of Hamas replicating itself is a two state peaceful Resolution between the Palestinian in Israeli people. But I don't think there's any chance of that happening now.

[Threviel]

Hamas being entirely untrustworthy is reason enough. There's no exploration to be done with an enemy already known, the Israelis know what they are dealing with and the worth of any negotiations.

It's not "the Israelis" who took the decision, it's that guy:

Rallies organized by Likud and other right-wing groups featured depictions of Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform, or in the crosshairs of a gun.^[2][3] Protesters compared the Labor party to the Nazis and Rabin to Adolf Hitler^[5] and chanted, "Rabin is a murderer" and "Rabin is a traitor".^[8][9] In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".^[10][11] The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.^[8][12] Netanyahu denied any intention to incite violence.^[2][3][13]

Enemies on the outside, enemies on the inside, it's tough to live that life.  Maybe he should retire to a nice little villa in Saudi Arabia?  He has new friends over there...

Netanyahu being scum does not make Hamas trustworthy...

[Tamas]

I thought it was a non-controversial standard policy of states that they don't negotiate with terrorists, and for Josqs and Viper Hamas being only terrorists and not a government seems like an important distinction.

I think it is very key for increasing security for your non-kidnapped population that you do not reward the act of kidnapping. Even if you make a deal where you stop destroying the enemy in exchange of releasing their hostages, the destruction you do MUST be far more severe than the one they inflicted on you otherwise the correct math for the hostage -takers is to try again, because if its a tit-for-tat then they can hope to get lucky and end up with a better deal next time they try.

[Threviel]

Well said Tamas. I also think that our politicians have been very careless with this for a few decades, there's been lots of negotiating and hostage buying with different islamist groups for a long time. We've showed them that we are soft and that taking hostages is profitable, and now there's lots of pressure on Israel to negotiate over the hostages again.

Sure, we might perhaps save the hostages, but we put millions more at risk. The only correct response to hostage taking is violence, negotiation should only be done if it buys time to get that violence rolling.

[viper37]

Netanyahu being scum does not make Hamas trustworthy...

Like I said, there's a difference between rejecting out of hand and opening exploratory talks to see where it leads.  

I was in no way suggesting they should take Hamas at their word.  But if there was any hope at saving some hostages, they should have looked at it rather than rejecting it out of hand.

[Iormlund]

Like I said, there's a difference between rejecting out of hand and opening exploratory talks to see where it leads. 

I was in no way suggesting they should take Hamas at their word.  But if there was any hope at saving some hostages, they should have looked at it rather than rejecting it out of hand.

They do take Hamas at their word.

Hamas says they will attack again.

[viper37]

thought it was a non-controversial standard policy of states that they don't negotiate with terrorists,

That's a good line for movies.  In reality, they do it all the time.
Like, Right now

Or not so long ago about  a cease-fire

Or the hostage crisis of Lebanon, where negotiations were held by various parties.

Or the latest when Israel negotiated with the Hezbollah for the return of the bodies of the kidnapped soldiers.

If I search for more instances, I will find more.

[viper37]

Like I said, there's a difference between rejecting out of hand and opening exploratory talks to see where it leads. 

I was in no way suggesting they should take Hamas at their word.  But if there was any hope at saving some hostages, they should have looked at it rather than rejecting it out of hand.

They do take Hamas at their word.

Hamas says they will attack again.

Well, there's that.

[viper37]

Sure, we might perhaps save the hostages, but we put millions more at risk. The only correct response to hostage taking is violence, negotiation should only be done if it buys time to get that violence rolling.

The ideal solution would have been to not create this mess in the first place.
The second ideal solution would be to find a way to rescue the hostages with a military operation.  Since Israel now assure us that everywhere it strikes is a military operation, it shouldn't be too difficult, they seem to have very good intel...