Recent posts

#11

Off the Record / Re: Elon Musk: Always A Douche

Last post by Razgovory - Today at 06:45:21 PM

Grain doles probably predate writing.  The first economic system recorded was a palace economy, where the government collected all the goods and then redistributed them.

#12

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Razgovory - Today at 06:39:18 PM

This shit really needs to stop.

#13

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Valmy - Today at 05:46:00 PM

Jesus fucking Christ

#14

Off the Record / Re: Elon Musk: Always A Douche

Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 05:10:42 PM

I was ready to concede all your points (they're all good but I liked the role of the Church in medieval society the most) until you came out with this doozie.  Really?  Betcha I can rattle of 20 rebellions in which famine/hunger did not factor.

To go a little Dirty Harry, I think the question you need to ask yourself is how much wiggle room did I mean to give myself with "basically almost"

But I would be interested anyway - and not necessarily famine or shortage. In fairness I should have said that, I think for obvious reasons, that famine rarely leads to rebellion - but shortage and associated price rises etc definitely does. I'm terribly Marxist on this I tend to think the material conditions before rebellions are always important - I don't think they're the "cause" or the only issue, but I think they're always present. And as a generalisation I suspect most of the time those material conditions are not "we're all doing well!"

#15

Off the Record / Re: Elon Musk: Always A Douche

Last post by Admiral Yi - Today at 04:59:33 PM

Sure. My argument isn't that every famine or shortage resulted in rebellion, but that it was a precipitating condition of basically almost every rebellion.

I was ready to concede all your points (they're all good but I liked the role of the Church in medieval society the most) until you came out with this doozie.  Really?  Betcha I can rattle of 20 rebellions in which famine/hunger did not factor.

#16

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Tamas - Today at 04:58:06 PM

Seems like secret service shot at the guy after spotting his AK poking out from the bushes, guy fled and was later arrested.

Very fortunate for Trump, his debate performance will not be discussed any longer.

#17

Off the Record / Re: Elon Musk: Always A Douche

Last post by Tonitrus - Today at 04:39:26 PM

If anyone is curious, the grain dole began in 123 BC.  Spartacus' revolt was in 73 BC.

Free grain probably didn't make the lives of slaves and gladiators a much happier one.

#18

Off the Record / Re: Elon Musk: Always A Douche

Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 04:17:01 PM

There has been countryside before the evolution of homo sapiens so that is silly.

I said "cities and countryside"

Rome was a town long before bread and circus were provided.

Although Rome was big on the other common form of ancient welfare: land grants. It also had pretty efficient ways of capturing the rural surplus of its neighbours

What was the form of welfare under Henry VIII? 

Quite

I think there's two interesting sides to this. So the first is that I think Medieval England develops the first form of agricultural capitalism that helps shape the way the West is now - so the start of food stamps and housing vouchers is here.

Another way the start of Western welfare is under Henry VIII. Welfare was the responsibility of the Church which had its own resources which were used giving alms, running estates, feeding the poor, healing the sick etc. In the Medieval world that was part of the role of the Church who were, broadly, out of the early capitalist economy in English agriculture. With the dissolution of the monasteries there is a big increase in poverty and the institutions that dealt with it were abolished. All the way through the Tudor eras there are loads of Poor Laws and vagabondage acts to help the deserving poor (through local taxes) and punish the undeserving poor. So, again, I think the modern Western welfare state probably has its origin with Henry VIII.

Classical Athens?

All Greek city states heavily regulated grain. The role of public buyers of grain was an elected office in Athens. From what we know the city states regulated the price of staple foods and many gave free distributions of grain not to the poor, but to all citizens.

Demosthenes was a grain buyer, for example. Aristotle talks about this - explicitly that it was necessary to keep the masses happy for the position of the rich to be secure.

Similarly meals following sacrifices and at public festivals (which were very regular) were typically free (again not aimed at the poor but citizens and some residents - however there's reference to the poor getting larger portions). Obviously Athens also paid her citizens for participating in democratic meetings or juries. Some Greek city states also paid for city-employed doctors (often elected) who could be consulted for free and there were provisions made for care for invalids and widows (I think in part because of the relationship between that and the citizen army).

I think welfare, tax, power and war are all bound up together in quite complex ways - and Ancient Greece actually shows this. As people pay taxes or are called on by the state to fight, they push for enhanced power within the state, having increased power in the state they want to benefit from the welfare or other benefits of the state (patronage etc). Ancient Greece is a really interesting example because of how welfare, service and citizenship are tied together.

Edit: But I don't think that's necessarily how people at the time necessarily frame it. There I think it's necessary for stability and referring to ideal social orders. After all I broadly think another relatively recent and I think relatively Western thing is the view that change is good/progress exists (and I think we might have lost that).

But, for example, why I think American welfare peaks - in particular in extending to all races - during Vietnam and the draft and both fall away in the following years.

The first Bengal famine (the one under the Company) was not criticized as bad rebellion management but on purely humanitarian grounds.  And a rebellion did not break out incidentally.

Sure. My argument isn't that every famine or shortage resulted in rebellion, but that it was a precipitating condition of basically almost every rebellion. Similarly not that rebellion was the only frame, but that it was a frame that justified this forms of pre-bureaucratic welfare. I think the other really important one was a more broadly conservative one that the welfare supported a virtuous, stable social order - allowing imbalances and not having a very heavy state hand could create situations of urban shortage, poor peasants and rich merchants, for example. That might be bad in itself from, say, a Confucian perspective but it would also be a social challenge for, say, a feudal system too (again Henry VIII is interesting here).

#19

Off the Record / Re: Elon Musk: Always A Douche

Last post by Admiral Yi - Today at 03:56:03 PM

If anyone is curious, the grain dole began in 123 BC.  Spartacus' revolt was in 73 BC.

#20

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Admiral Yi - Today at 03:51:05 PM

Shots fired "in Trump's vicinity" at one of his golf courses.

Source looks dodgy but another random dude referenced a CNN report saying the same thing.