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Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Barrister

Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2023, 11:49:35 AMPutin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it
Quote
  • Russian President Vladimir Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isn't a real country.
  • But the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine."
  • Putin has cited his much-criticized belief Ukraine isn't a real country in justifying Russia's invasion.

Russian President Vladimir Putin Tuesday cited a 17th-Century map of Europe to back his discredited thesis that Ukraine isn't a real country, a claim that he's used to justify Russia's unprovoked invasion.
But, even on the terms of Putin's thesis, there was a problem: the document clearly marks part of the territory as being "Ukraine."

In a meeting with the chairman of Russia's constitutional court, Valery Zorkin, the two pored over a map made by a 17th century cartographer for France's King Louis XIV.

The Kremlin published a video of the encounter, in which Putin and Zorkin hold the map up as proof that a Ukrainian nation is a historical fiction.
[...]


That was such a weird move by Putin.

In the 17th century there wasn't a Russia either - just Muscovy.  Also no Germany, Italy, USA...
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

The Minsky Moment

Surely it is Kiev that has the true claim to the mantle of Rus.  :ph34r:
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Barrister

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 24, 2023, 12:36:16 PMSurely it is Kiev that has the true claim to the mantle of Rus.  :ph34r:

I know online in pro-Ukrainian corners there was a move to start referring to the country as Muscovy, and not Russia, for precisely that reason...
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Caliga

Silly Putin.  He already took the -2 stability hit for attacking without a CB, so what's the point of stuff like that now?
0 Ed Anger Disapproval Points

Barrister

https://kyivindependent.com/orthodox-church-of-ukraine-to-switch-to-revised-julian-calendar-celebrate-christmas-on-dec-25/

Ukrainian Orthodox Church to move to the Revised Julian Calendar, which (mostly) matches up with the Gregorian Calendar.  Christmas to be celebrated December 25.

Wow that's huge.  I mean even in Canada lots of people celebrate "Ukrainian Christmas".  I mean they celebrate western Christmas also - that's the day for Santa and all the presents, but then Ukrainian Christmas was an occasion for a more cultural and religious holiday.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.


Zanza

Quote from: Caliga on May 24, 2023, 01:06:24 PMSilly Putin.  He already took the -2 stability hit for attacking without a CB, so what's the point of stuff like that now?
Maybe he doesn't know that you can't fabricate a claim after you started the war.

Legbiter

QuoteAvslöjar: Ukrainska piloter ska få testflyga JAS Gripen

https://www.tv4.se/artikel/49lIV6ymk8P5WdWGCNE4gX/tv4-nyheterna-avsloejar-ukrainska-piloter-ska-fa-testflyga-jas-gripen

Sweden to begin training Ukrainian pilots on the Gripen. :thumbsup:
Posted using 100% recycled electrons.

Legbiter

Russian reconnaissance ship Ivan Hurs successfully intercepting a Ukrainian naval drone with it's portside stern...

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1661724958236499970

I'm not a naval expert but that can't have been good for the ship's overall seaworthiness.  :hmm:
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Duque de Bragança

#14169
Quote from: HVC on May 23, 2023, 06:46:11 PMWhy take by force what he can have effective control of at a discount (At least for the next few decades)

Speaking of which :whistle:

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3221170/chinas-use-russian-port-ship-goods-domestically-symbolic-closer-ties-hurdles-remain

China's use of Russian port to ship goods domestically is 'symbolic' of closer ties, but hurdles remain
Agreement will take effect in June, giving China a shorter and cheaper route to transport goods from its northeastern region to its eastern economic powerhouse
However, poor infrastructure at Port of Vladivostok and its relatively weak cargo-handling efficiency are expected to curtail the actual effects of the agreement

A Russian region that China controlled for 171 years during the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) will soon serve as a transit hub for domestic Chinese shipments from an inland province, and analysts say the "symbolic" agreement is indicative of deepening ties between Beijing and Moscow.
The Port of Vladivostok, which is the largest port in Russia's far east, will be used to transport goods from China's northeastern Jilin province to its eastern powerhouse of Zhejiang province starting on June 1, the General Administration of Customs announced this month.
That will make the Russian port, in essence, a domestic Chinese port for Jilin, from where the goods will be shipped by rail or truck to the port with no tariffs nor taxes incurred.


Legbiter

Just wish everyone had done this six months ago. The planes won't be ready for the summer offensives.
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OttoVonBismarck

In terms of Putin's map showing Ukraine doesn't exist, how does that square with things like the Tsar's official title from their early 20th century constitution:

QuoteBy the Grace of God, We Nicholas, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod;

Both the concept of "All the Russias (plural)" and listing out Moscow and Kiev as separate seems to strongly suggest Moscow Russians and Kiev Russians are not the same thing or part of the same historic entity.

Barrister

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 26, 2023, 06:45:41 AMIn terms of Putin's map showing Ukraine doesn't exist, how does that square with things like the Tsar's official title from their early 20th century constitution:

QuoteBy the Grace of God, We Nicholas, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod;

Both the concept of "All the Russias (plural)" and listing out Moscow and Kiev as separate seems to strongly suggest Moscow Russians and Kiev Russians are not the same thing or part of the same historic entity.

"All the Russias" though is quite deliberate on their part.  It acknowledges that Moscow was only a smaller region, but by calling all of them "Russias" it says they're all basically the same thing, and thus should all be joined together.

Which is why Ukraine calls itself Ukraine, and not "Kiyevan Rus".
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Josquius

#14174
Reading about the history of Ukraine has really got me thinking about how fundamentally weird and artificial modern countries are. How odd it is that some came to be whilst others remained outside.

Why is it the tsars used all Russias whilst the French monarch for example just had the one France despite the similarities in historic division, diversity, gradual conquest, and so on? - seems funny the Russian monarchs would keep things divided.


In more modern news...in pure tit for tat Russia saying they won't negotiate unless zelensky is gone.
I wonder whether we will see a response. Again speaking as a disconnected guy without all the info, if I was zelensky I'd be going "cool. Withdraw your troops and I'll resign right away". Not out of any belief it would happen of course but to highlight the fundamental difference between him and Putin.
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