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With Lebron James on pace to pass Kareem on the all time scoring list in 12 games (barring injury) and to move up to 4th on the all time assist list past Steve Nash in the next 8 games, I thought it was appropriate to revisit this question.

No Michael Jordan?

Quote from: The Larch on January 17, 2023, 08:50:41 PMNo Michael Jordan?

Ah! That's meant to be choice one. Instead it's the title. :wacko:

Kareem.

1964 and 1965 High School Basketball player of the year for the entire USA. Played for one of the greatest High School Basketball teams of all time: 1964 Power Memorial Academy. Went 79-2 as a High School player.

1967, 1968, and 1969 College Player of the Year. Played for one of the greatest College Basketball teams of all time: 1966 UCLA Bruins. Went 88-2 as a College player. Three time NCAA Tournament MVP. Three time National Champion.

1970 NBA Rookie of the Year. 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, and 1980 NBA Most Valuable Player. 19 time All-Star. 10 time First Team all NBA. Played for two of the greatest NBA Teams of all time: 1971 Milwaukee Bucks and the 1987 LA Lakers. 6 Time NBA Champion. 2 time NBA Finals MVP. 

I mean you might make a case that one of the other guys was a better NBA player but nobody dominated every level of Basketball for so long as Kareem did. Nobody has a resume like his. Every team he ever played for was a champion while he was there.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2023, 08:52:00 PM

Quote from: The Larch on January 17, 2023, 08:50:41 PMNo Michael Jordan?

Ah! That's meant to be choice one. Instead it's the title. :wacko:

I feel like this poll has been tainted. Much like the 2020 Lakers

My choice would not change though  :P

Bas-ket ball? :huh:

I edited the poll, adding Jordan as an option and providing a title more line with Timmy's intention. Only three votes had been cast at the time.

Quote from: Jacob on January 17, 2023, 10:38:42 PMI edited the poll, adding Jordan as an option and providing a title more line with Timmy's intention. Only three votes had been cast at the time.

Thank you!

I don't know shit about basketball, so I'm just going to vote for Kareem because he had a funny bit in Airplane!

I know Jordan starred in Space Jam, and Lebron in Space Jam 2, but well I like Airplane! more.

Quote from: Barrister on January 17, 2023, 11:11:06 PMI don't know shit about basketball, so I'm just going to vote for Kareem because he had a funny bit in Airplane!

I know Jordan starred in Space Jam, and Lebron in Space Jam 2, but well I like Airplane! more.

The right choice!

He doesn't work hard enough on defense.

Voted Jordan. Hard to me to properly evaluate Kareem or Russel outside of their stats and winning records, wasn't around the see them play in their pomps. Russel's record is particularly ridiculous on paper.

There's a valid case for LeBron due to being great for a longer period of time - which has allowed him to stack all these crazy all-time records and led winning teams in different cities, but I feel that Jordan at his peak was just that wee bit more unstoppable than LeBron at his peak. I do feel that he was also a better defender, which while secondary it is important.

I prefer Baseketball

I don't know how the thread starter feels, but in my mind there's a difference between the best player and the greatest player. Greatest to me means (slightly simplified) that you have achieved more than anyone else (number of points scored, most important discoveries made, battles/wars won, or whatever it happens to be about), while best means being the most skillful. Now getting to my point: is there any player that in his prime was at least as good as the ones listed but was forced out of the game early by injury or death or whatever, thus unable to rack up total numbers?

Quote from: The Brain on January 18, 2023, 03:28:53 AMNow getting to my point: is there any player that in his prime was at least as good as the ones listed but was forced out of the game early by injury or death or whatever, thus unable to rack up total numbers?

Bill Walton's foot split open early in his career and he continued to play but at a much lesser level.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 18, 2023, 03:32:42 AM

Quote from: The Brain on January 18, 2023, 03:28:53 AMNow getting to my point: is there any player that in his prime was at least as good as the ones listed but was forced out of the game early by injury or death or whatever, thus unable to rack up total numbers?

Bill Walton's foot split open early in his career and he continued to play but at a much lesser level.

Eh... he was averaging ~ 18 points and 13 rebounds a game. A solid all star, but not the greatest ever.
Pistol Pete Marovich is probably the best player to have his career cut short by injury. Still wouldn't put him on the level with the six names I put on this list, but definitely a top 20 player.

Is there a talented Brit netball player who'll qualify for the poll? :brit:

Quote from: mongers on January 18, 2023, 09:10:12 AMIs there a talented Brit netball player who'll qualify for the poll? :brit:

On a related note I thought about shilling for Canadian Steve Nash, but pretty sure he'd be considered just a step below the guys mentioned.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 18, 2023, 09:01:19 AM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 18, 2023, 03:32:42 AM

Quote from: The Brain on January 18, 2023, 03:28:53 AMNow getting to my point: is there any player that in his prime was at least as good as the ones listed but was forced out of the game early by injury or death or whatever, thus unable to rack up total numbers?

Bill Walton's foot split open early in his career and he continued to play but at a much lesser level.

Eh... he was averaging ~ 18 points and 13 rebounds a game. A solid all star, but not the greatest ever.
Pistol Pete Marovich is probably the best player to have his career cut short by injury. Still wouldn't put him on the level with the six names I put on this list, but definitely a top 20 player.

The point you are missing is that those averages are over his whole career. He suffered significant injuries to his foot in the first few years of his career, and so the years after the injury significantly brings his average down from what they otherwise would have been.

I'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Quote from: Barrister on January 18, 2023, 10:39:17 AM

Quote from: mongers on January 18, 2023, 09:10:12 AMIs there a talented Brit netball player who'll qualify for the poll? :brit:

On a related note I thought about shilling for Canadian Steve Nash, but pretty sure he'd be considered just a step below the guys mentioned.

Steve Nash is without a doubt the Canuck GOAT and a damn good player, but yeah, he's a few steps below the ones discussed here.

Olajuwon is probably the foreign NBA GOAT. But people like Doncic, Antetokoumpo and Jokic have a chance of passing over him when it's all said and done. Christ, Jokic is such a wickedly fun player to watch.

Voted Jordan but I don't really know enough about basketball to be sure of it.

Quote from: celedhring on January 18, 2023, 11:29:04 AMOlajuwon is probably the foreign NBA GOAT.

I'd break a lance for Dirk Nowitzki, at least in terms of accomplishments. When their careers are over I expect the current crop (Anteto, Doncic etc al.) to have overcome them both.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AMI'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, and Magic are all in that area of top 10 players of all time but just a notch below Kareen, Lebron, and Jordan IMO. Obviously I think Kareem is 1 and Jordan and Lebron are 2a and 2b but reasonable minds can disagree.

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 18, 2023, 12:30:15 PMVoted Jordan but I don't really know enough about basketball to be sure of it.

Same.  I'd have voted Jordan if he was a choice when I voted.

Quote from: Valmy on January 18, 2023, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AMI'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, and Magic are all in that area of top 10 players of all time but just a notch below Kareen, Lebron, and Jordan IMO. Obviously I think Kareem is 1 and Jordan and Lebron are 2a and 2b but reasonable minds can disagree.

I agree with Chamberlain, Bird and Magic being in the grouping just below the best of all time.  But I would put Russell in the grouping of the best of all time along with Jordan and Kareem.  The thing those players had that Lebron does not is they made the players around them better.  Lebron is all about hero ball and so that disqualifies him from being the best ever.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 02:31:10 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 18, 2023, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AMI'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, and Magic are all in that area of top 10 players of all time but just a notch below Kareen, Lebron, and Jordan IMO. Obviously I think Kareem is 1 and Jordan and Lebron are 2a and 2b but reasonable minds can disagree.

I agree with Chamberlain, Bird and Magic being in the grouping just below the best of all time.  But I would put Russell in the grouping of the best of all time along with Jordan and Kareem.  The thing those players had that Lebron does not is they made the players around them better.  Lebron is all about hero ball and so that disqualifies him from being the best ever.

I disagree, what makes LeBron great is that he's a very good passer, not just an iso scorer. So if the defense focuses on him, he'll find a free teammate. Many second and third stringers had career years playing alongside him. He's an extremely smart player.

Quote from: celedhring on January 18, 2023, 02:41:43 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 02:31:10 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 18, 2023, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AMI'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, and Magic are all in that area of top 10 players of all time but just a notch below Kareen, Lebron, and Jordan IMO. Obviously I think Kareem is 1 and Jordan and Lebron are 2a and 2b but reasonable minds can disagree.

I agree with Chamberlain, Bird and Magic being in the grouping just below the best of all time.  But I would put Russell in the grouping of the best of all time along with Jordan and Kareem.  The thing those players had that Lebron does not is they made the players around them better.  Lebron is all about hero ball and so that disqualifies him from being the best ever.

I disagree, what makes LeBron great is that he's a very good passer, not just an iso scorer. So if the defense focuses on him, he'll find a free teammate. Many second and third stringers had career years playing alongside him. He's an extremely smart player.

Who on the Lakers has he made better in your estimation?

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 03:11:51 PM

Quote from: celedhring on January 18, 2023, 02:41:43 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 02:31:10 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 18, 2023, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AMI'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, and Magic are all in that area of top 10 players of all time but just a notch below Kareen, Lebron, and Jordan IMO. Obviously I think Kareem is 1 and Jordan and Lebron are 2a and 2b but reasonable minds can disagree.

I agree with Chamberlain, Bird and Magic being in the grouping just below the best of all time.  But I would put Russell in the grouping of the best of all time along with Jordan and Kareem.  The thing those players had that Lebron does not is they made the players around them better.  Lebron is all about hero ball and so that disqualifies him from being the best ever.

I disagree, what makes LeBron great is that he's a very good passer, not just an iso scorer. So if the defense focuses on him, he'll find a free teammate. Many second and third stringers had career years playing alongside him. He's an extremely smart player.

Who on the Lakers has he made better in your estimation?

He's made Anthony Davies (a very good player on his own, mind) look like an MVP level player when they have been able to play regularly together.

He's sixth all time in assists, he's always been a willing passer.

As you have said, Anthony Davis was always a good player. He was a superstar in college and the pros, long before he teamed up with LeBron. 

I think there is a difference between someone who gets lots of assists by drawing defenders to them, and making the players around them better. All good offensive players draw double teams and pass out of them for an assist.  That  is what Lebron does. And because he plays so much hero ball, it is not surprising that he has good assist numbers when drawing the extra defender.

What I am talking about is making their team mates better by just being on the team - being a great motivator (Lebron is a great whiner); creating scoring opportunities for others as primary scorers on a play (this was Nash's and Kareem's great ability); and playing great team defence. Granted that is a lost art in most of today's NBA. 

I think Russell was the greatest of all time, because in addition to his amazing stats, he was the soul of his teams.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 04:39:38 PMAs you have said, Anthony Davis was always a good player. He was a superstar in college and the pros, long before he teamed up with LeBron. 

I think there is a difference between someone who gets lots of assists by drawing defenders to them, and making the players around them better. All good offensive players draw double teams and pass out of them for an assist.  That  is what Lebron does. And because he plays so much hero ball, it is not surprising that he has good assist numbers when drawing the extra defender.

What I am talking about is making their team mates better by just being on the team - being a great motivator (Lebron is a great whiner); creating scoring opportunities for others as primary scorers on a play (this was Nash's and Kareem's great ability); and playing great team defence. Granted that is a lost art in most of today's NBA. 

I think Russell was the greatest of all time, because in addition to his amazing stats, he was the soul of his teams.

Russel's career is also impressive because he did it when only the top 150 or so basketball players in the country even made an NBA team.

Quote from: celedhring on January 18, 2023, 11:29:04 AM

Quote from: Barrister on January 18, 2023, 10:39:17 AM

Quote from: mongers on January 18, 2023, 09:10:12 AMIs there a talented Brit netball player who'll qualify for the poll? :brit:

On a related note I thought about shilling for Canadian Steve Nash, but pretty sure he'd be considered just a step below the guys mentioned.

Olajuwon is probably the foreign NBA GOAT. But people like Doncic, Antetokoumpo and Jokic have a chance of passing over him when it's all said and done. Christ, Jokic is such a wickedly fun player to watch.

Donic is really fun to watch to, and he's not only great, he's clutch. It's just that he plays on a team that would be otherwise competing for the number one pick.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 02:31:10 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 18, 2023, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AMI'm not sure Larry Byrd should be on this list. But he is certainly one of the players that was impacted by injury. There are a lot of games during the championship runs of the Celtics where he had to sit out a lot of minutes because of back pain.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, and Magic are all in that area of top 10 players of all time but just a notch below Kareen, Lebron, and Jordan IMO. Obviously I think Kareem is 1 and Jordan and Lebron are 2a and 2b but reasonable minds can disagree.

I agree with Chamberlain, Bird and Magic being in the grouping just below the best of all time.  But I would put Russell in the grouping of the best of all time along with Jordan and Kareem.  The thing those players had that Lebron does not is they made the players around them better.  Lebron is all about hero ball and so that disqualifies him from being the best ever.

This is nonsense. Lebron is the most well rounded player ever. He's got over 10k assists and 10k rebounds.

A lot of those teams that lost in the finals with him wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs if he wasn't on the team.

EDIT: This is just a bizarre criticism. The mainstream criticism of Lebron has been that he doesn't engage in heroball nearly enough. For literally his entire career he has been hammered by fans and pundits for not taking over games like he's Jordan of Kobe.

That says more about what you consider valid mainstream views.  :P

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 07:27:26 PMThat says more about what you consider valid mainstream views.  :P

You can disagree with the mainstream view. You may even by right to do so, but you can't make the argument that it is not the mainstream view. By far the most common criticism of Lebron has been that he doesn't take over games when he needs to and that he's too unselfish.

Michael gave better highlights than LeBron.  Taking it to the hole vs. tossing a 3.

Kenny Sailors

I don't follow basketball. Nor do I know much about it. But as  a 90s kid, I gotta go with Jordan. He is and was always the best. I still remember going to a sleepover in the mid 90s and watching one of the Shaq vs Jordan games. Epic.

I also don't know enough to comment but Jordan unarguably raised the profile of the sport worldwide.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 18, 2023, 07:53:56 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2023, 07:27:26 PMThat says more about what you consider valid mainstream views.  :P

You can disagree with the mainstream view. You may even by right to do so, but you can't make the argument that it is not the mainstream view. By far the most common criticism of Lebron has been that he doesn't take over games when he needs to and that he's too unselfish.

The problem with these sorts of polls is that they are informed mainly by recent memory.  Your view that LeBron is criticized for not being self-centred enough is a really good example of this. During his prime, the main criticism made against him is that he was too much of a ball hog. Recently, he is being criticized for taking too many games off, both literally and figuratively.  Your view of him appears to be shaped mainly by the last couple of years, which are in no way indicative of his career.

Another example of faded memory, it was not that long ago that the debate was whether Kobe had replaced Jordan as the best player ever, and Kobe is not even on this list.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 19, 2023, 09:41:55 AMAnother example of faded memory, it was not that long ago that the debate was whether Kobe had replaced Jordan as the best player ever, and Kobe is not even on this list.

No one outside of Lakers fans thought this.

I've followed Lebron his whole career and from the first years in Cleveland to now he's always been hammered for not taking the game over like Jordan. That absolutely includes his prime. When he was being ripped for not winning that first year in Miami with Bosh and Dwayne Wade he was getting a hundred percent of the blame for being too unselfish.

Edit: The only other modern player that might deserve to go on that list is Curry. Really revolutionized the game.

Chamberlain was so dominant at his peak it creates a kind of mental distortion field.  It's hard to wrap one's mind around the degree to which he was lapping the competition.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2023, 09:58:05 PMChamberlain was so dominant at his peak it creates a kind of mental distortion field.  It's hard to wrap one's mind around the degree to which he was lapping the competition.

We're not talking about *that* kind of scoring.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2023, 09:58:05 PMChamberlain was so dominant at his peak it creates a kind of mental distortion field.  It's hard to wrap one's mind around the degree to which he was lapping the competition.

This is always a problem in discussing "who was the best" in sports - at a certain point these games just weren't regularly recorded on video.  If I remember correctly there's no video of Wilt's 100 point game as most games of that era weren't televised.

So it's hard to compare someone like Chamberlain to more modern players because no one alive has seen Chamberlain play.

Quote from: Barrister on January 20, 2023, 11:57:08 AM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 19, 2023, 09:58:05 PMChamberlain was so dominant at his peak it creates a kind of mental distortion field.  It's hard to wrap one's mind around the degree to which he was lapping the competition.

This is always a problem in discussing "who was the best" in sports - at a certain point these games just weren't regularly recorded on video.  If I remember correctly there's no video of Wilt's 100 point game as most games of that era weren't televised.

So it's hard to compare someone like Chamberlain to more modern players because no one alive has seen Chamberlain play.

In basketball this is compounded by the fact that the 3 point line was introduced much later than we think, and this has made it very difficult to compare stats from different eras. Also some stats only started being counted in relatively recent times as well, so you can't know, for instance, how many blocks Wilt Chamberlain averaged.

Blocked shots are one of the basic stats that have been tracked for a long time.  A quick googles search says Russell averaged 8.1 and Wilt 8.8 per game.

Both astounding numbers.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 20, 2023, 01:53:45 PMBlocked shots are one of the basic stats that have been tracked for a long time.  A quick googles search says Russell averaged 8.1 and Wilt 8.8 per game.

Both astounding numbers.

Where did you get it from? For what I knew the NBA only started tracking blocks (as well as steals) in the mid 70s.

There are no official numbers for blocks until 73/74 but someone tried to create unofficial game logs using newspaper accounts and film.

Heh. In that case both Russell and Chamberlain probably had dozens of triple doubles.

Quote from: Valmy on January 20, 2023, 02:36:05 PMHeh. In that case both Russell and Chamberlain probably had dozens of triple doubles.

For Wilt it would have been triple doubles - points, rebounding and blocks.  For Russell qaudriple doubles - those three plus assists.  The team mates of Wilt might as well have been sitting on the bench. He didn't need them. 

Wilt did have the most assists in the 1967-68 season (702) just to prove that he could distribute the ball if he wanted.

Kareem fought Bruce Lee.  :D

Bringing back this thread as last night LeBron beat Kareem's scoring record.

QuoteLeBron James becomes NBA's all-time leading scorer
Star passes previous mark set by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
38-year-old is also fourth on all-time assists list

LeBron James has confirmed his status as one of the most dominant NBA players in history after passing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's all-time scoring record.

The 38-year-old passed Abdul-Jabbar's mark of 38,387 points with a step-back fadeaway jumper from the foul line over the Oklahoma City Thunder's Kenrich Williams with 10.9 seconds remaining in the third quarter on Tuesday night.

But while Abdul-Jabbar took 1,560 games to record his total, James set his record in just over 1,400 appearances. Michael Jordan has the most points per game in NBA history with 30.1. James is fifth on that list with 27.1, just behind another active player, Kevin Durant (27.3).

The game was paused after James' record-breaking shot for an on-court ceremony with Abdul-Jabbar and NBA commissioner Adam Silver.

"I just want to say, thank you to the Laker faithful. You guys are one of a kind," James said. "To be able to be in the presence of such a legend as great as Kareem, it's very humbling. Please give a standing ovation to the Captain, please."

James went on to thank his family and those who have supported him.

"I thank you guys so much for allowing me to be a part of something I've always dreamed about," said James, who finished the night with 38 points on 13-of-20 shooting along with seven rebounds, three assists and three steals in a 133-130 Lakers loss.

Abdul-Jabbar, who had held the record since April 1984, has said he welcomes James' progress. "I want [other players] to break my records because doing so is one more benchmark of human progress," he wrote for the Guardian in 2019. "... Each time an athlete demonstrates that a person is capable of more than we thought, they have inspired all of humanity to realize that they are capable of reaching further than they thought possible."

James' march to the scoring record seemed almost preordained. He was given the media attention usually devoted to professional athletes while still in high school and scored his first NBA points, for his hometown Cleveland Cavaliers, when he was 18 (unlike James, Abdul-Jabbar played college basketball and did not score his first points in the league until he was 22). His accumulation of scoring records has also been helped by the fact that he has avoided serious injuries, and James has only missed significant playing time since joining the Los Angeles in 2018.

But James is far from a mere scoring machine – he has the fourth-most assists in NBA history, and is known for his leadership skills on the court. He is also a four-time NBA MVP and has won at least one title with each of his three teams, the Cavaliers, Lakers and Miami Heat.

"It's not just his body. It's not just his process. It's not just his intention. It's his brain," his former Cavaliers teammate Kevin Love told the Associated Press this month.

As for the future, James has said he wants to play alongside his son, Bronny, who won't be eligible to join the NBA until 2024 at the earliest. By then James would be well north of 40,000 career points if his scoring rate continues.

Official NBA records are based on performance in the regular season. However, James also holds the scoring record for combined points in regular-season and playoff games. He broke Abdul-Jabbar's record of 44,149 points in last season's playoffs.

Kareem wrote a really nice article on what this meant to him

https://kareem.substack.com/p/what-i-think-about-lebron-breaking

Kareem was always a little awkward speaking but damn can that dude write. That was beautiful.

That's a really great article.

Great article.  KAJ mentions being 75 several time, and I guess that I'd have figured that out given time, but he sure doesn't look like he is 75.

Money quote:

QuoteIf I had a choice of having my scoring record remain intact for another hundred years or spend one afternoon with my grandchildren, I'd be on the floor in seconds stacking Legos and eating Uncrustables.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 08, 2023, 10:32:10 PMKareem wrote a really nice article on what this meant to him

https://kareem.substack.com/p/what-i-think-about-lebron-breaking

That was great.

MJ would have punted his grandkid across the living room to keep his record, and that's why he's the greatest :D

Quote from: HVC on February 11, 2023, 06:54:00 PMMJ would have punted his grandkid across the living room to keep his record, and that's why he's the greatest :D

 :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1ceE85YsYUc

The drive at the end of the clip.

I had the great pleasure of watching him live in Vancouver.  The Grizzlies were up by a lot at the end of the third quarter, and someone made the mistake of saying something to Jordan.  He took over the fourth, scoring at will, and Chicago won in a blowout.  The crowd was dazzled by his performance, smart enough to realize we were witnessing greatness.

Shawn Kemp arrested for a drive by shooting!  :wacko: