http://www.dw.com/en/a-silent-coup-in-poland/a-18877537
QuoteA silent coup in Poland?
The days-old Polish government has wasted no time in making use of its new power. Critics are already worrying that their mandate has been stretched too far.
Beata Szydlo, prime minister of Poland since November 16, set the precedent for defied expectations with her choice of cabinet members.
As defense minister she appointed Antoni Macierewicz, who shares his hardline stance towards Moscow with the chief of the ruling Party for Law and Justice (PiS) Jaroslaw Kaczynski. Macierewicz eagerly spreads conspiracy theories about the plane crash in the Russian city of Smolensk five years ago that killed former President (and Jaroslaw's twin) Lech Kaczynski as well as a number of other high-ranking dignitaries. Worried he would scare away moderate conservative voters, Syzdlo promised in her campaign that Macierewicz would not take part in her government. And now he is in office.
Then there is the new secret service coordinator, Mariusz Kaminski. Former head of Poland's Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, Kaminski was convicted for abuse of office in March with a three-year prison sentence - barring him as well from public office. Kaminski has since appealed the ruling. In any case, the new prime minister was not bothered and has brought him into the government too. Immediately thereafter the president issued him a pardon.
The president versus the courts
Critics fear that the head of state's unprecedented move will prompt other officials to support the party so they too may secure legal impunity.
The move itself was illegal, believes Piotr Kladoczny of the Helsinki Foundation of Human Rights in Warsaw. "The president can pardon a conviction, but not the defendant himself," Kladoczny said.
In the meantime, judges from the court of appeals in Warsaw have spoken up. A council released a statement decrying the use of the justice system as a political instrument. Recalling the constitution's division of powers, it wrote: "The judiciary and the executive should not compete with each other and the president cannot release the courts of their constitutional duties."
Law's bulwark under siege
But the decision of what is just and what is unjust will rest in new hands.
Only a few days after the swearing-in of the new Sejm - the lower house of the Polish parliament - the ruling PiS party pushed through both houses of parliament an amendment that would vindicate the president's legal maneuvering.
Representatives and senators of the PiS voted in an nighttime session to appoint replacements for five recently nominated constitutional judges. With the help of the Kukiz'15 faction they gathered the necessary two-thirds majority to get their way. There was no hearing for constitutional judges. Amendment proposals were rejected. The opposition spoke of a shameful coup against the constitutional court and walked out before the vote in protest.
"It is very unnerving how the new leaders are moving forward, Kladoczny said. "It now looks like they want subordinate the constitutional court. That would be lethal," as the highest court is "the last reserve of jurisdiction."
The media's 'national duty'
Now the PiS has set its eyes on the media.
Shortly before a Breslau theater was set to premier its staging of Austrian playwright Elfriede Jelinek's "Der Tod und Das Mädchen," newly installed Culture Minister Piotr Glinski urged the performance to be called off amid talk that pornographic scenes would occur on stage. "Government money for culture will not be spent on pornography," he said.
When a television moderator from the channel TVP asked about the legal basis of his threat, Glinski dodged the question before offering threatening TVP in turn: "This program is propaganda, just like the propaganda and manipulation that your channel has been pushing for years," he said. "That will end soon. Public television is not allowed to function like that."
The journalist was pulled as the program's moderator and the culture minister soon announced that reform for rules governing the media were already in their "final phase." It is so far known that state television and radio channels, as well as the Polish press agency PAP, will be cast as "national cultural institutions." Their current boards will be swiftly replaced with people who in turn could be dismissed at any time.
Genuine threat or make believe?
Public outcry has been exaggerated, says Andrzej Grajewski, a journalist with the conservative weekly newspaper "Gosc Neidzielny." In fact, he says, public media in Poland has been strongly polarized for years, made evident by the election campaign. The question is only whether the boards will be politically varied in their representation or replaced only with functionaries close to the government. He also dismissed further governmental designs on the media, calling the plan of a PiS politician to eject foreign capital - mostly German - from the regional newspaper market "completely impossible."
Most of these measures are part of a long and elaborate scheme dubbed the "Program for the Renewal of the Republic," which bears the handwriting of the ideological head of the PiS, Jaroslaw Kaczynski. Only ten days in power, the government is only getting started.
I hear there's also attempts to bring Donald Tusk before a tribunal with regards to the Smolensk plane crash?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/12019815/Poland-to-increase-the-size-of-army-by-50-per-cent-to-guarantee-the-integrity.html
QuotePoland to increase the size of army by 50 per cent to 'guarantee the integrity'
The decision to increase the army was not just about soldiers but equipment and barracks, insists Michal Jach, head of the Polish parliament's defence committee
Poland plans to increase the size of its army by 50 per cent to help "guarantee the integrity" of the nation's borders.
Under the plan the Polish army would grow from its current strength of 100,000 to 150,000 as the country continues to expand the capabilities of its armed forces. Poland has pledged to hit the unofficial Nato defence spending target of two per cent of GDP and has launched an intensive modernisation programme.
Speaking about the army, Michal Jach, head of the Polish parliament's defence committee, said an increase in size was part of a "profound reform to achieve a level of operational capacity that would guarantee the integrity of the Polish borders".
The move reflects growing Polish security concerns. Poland has viewed with alarm the conflict in neighbouring Ukraine and the actions of what it considers as a revanchist Russia.
Beata Szydlo, Poland's new prime minister who took office this month following the victory of her Law and Justice party in October's general election, has called Russia Poland's "enemy", and many in her government view Moscow with the deepest suspicions.
Antoni Macierewicz, the country's new defence minister, has said he wants to rebuild the Polish armed forces "as fast as I can".
Mr Jach conceded that expanding the army by 50 per cent would be a complicated procedure, stressing that it "was not just about soldiers but also about equipment and barracks".
Along with increasing the size of the regular army, Poland also plans to create three territorial brigades to protect the country's eastern flank.
We already have a Polish politics thread!
The business with the constitutional tribunal judges is a bit dodgy as PO, in the outgoing Parliament, has indeed bent the law to appoint 3 out of 5 judges that PiS is now trying to replace. As it is now, both pieces of legislation (the PO's and the PiS's) are now submitted to the constitutional tribunal and we will see how the tribunal rules.
This will be a cause to worry if the judgement of the tribunal is not complied with by the government. Until then, I am afraid this is business as usual and everything that could have been expected from PiS coming to power - but not yet a cause for concern for the Polish democracy.
As for the "pornographic play" thingie, again, the minister sent a letter to the local authorities in Breslau (where the play was to be performed) demanding the play to be pulled and the authorities entirely rebuked the letter, saying they have neither will nor ability to intervene and the a priori censorship is illegal in Poland. The performance went ahead (despite rosary-wielding protesters outside - in fact one journalist was apparently "attacked with a rosary") and the minister has become a popular target of unflattering memes.
The journalist who asked tough questions was only pulled as a programme moderator for two days "pending ethical commission investigation", and the public tv's ethical commission has found her conduct to be faultless and in fact sent a strongly worded letter to the minister, and reinstated the journalist to her programme.
So again, this seems like the democracy and the system working as designed. The only surprise I have really is why PiS is doing it like this - they would have got much farther by attempting a "silent coup" in fact - instead they went for a blatant, televised, broadcasted and noisy power grab which is already galvanising against them the public lulled into apathy by 8 years of the boring PO government.
Poland is not Hungary or Russia, mind you - people here are very contrarian and freedom-loving to the point of anarchism and any attempts at authoritarianism need to be very clever to succeed.
The army increase is warranted.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35217586
QuoteEU ready to fight Polish media law amid row over values
A senior EU official has threatened legal action against Poland's new conservative government over its controversial media law.
The EU Commissioner for the Digital Economy, Guenther Oettinger, said: "There are solid grounds for us to activate the rule of law mechanism and put Warsaw under monitoring."
Polish MPs have approved a law giving the government direct control over top appointments in public broadcasting.
It undermines free speech, critics say.
In an interview with Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) newspaper, Mr Oettinger said he would raise the Polish media law issue at a meeting of the Commission on 13 January.
Under the EU's rule of law mechanism, adopted last year, the Commission can escalate pressure on a member state to amend any measure that is considered a "systemic threat" to fundamental EU values.
In the last resort, a state's voting rights in the EU Council - where government ministers shape EU policy - can be suspended. The Commission is the EU's top regulator, enforcing EU treaties.
On Saturday the directors of four channels of TVP - Poland's public service television - resigned in protest at the new law.
The Polish news website Dziennik named them as: Piotr Radziszewski (TVP1), Jerzy Kapuscinski (TVP2), Katarzyna Janowska (TVP Kultura) and Tomasz Sygut (Television Information Agency).
The media law has not yet taken effect - but President Andrzej Duda, an ally of the ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS), is expected to approve it this week.
New managers
Media watchdogs in Europe have voiced alarm about the media shake-up. It will put TVP and Polish Radio - which have a huge audience - under the control of a new national media council close to the ruling PiS.
Current media regulators will be replaced, and the treasury minister will exert direct control over the public channels' managers.
The public broadcasters will be re-designated as "national cultural institutes".
The PiS says new managers are needed at the top of state institutions because the previous centre-right Civic Platform party allowed corruption to flourish.
The PiS is also Eurosceptic, firm on traditional Catholic values and committed to increasing social welfare spending.
Comparisons have been made with Hungary, whose conservative Fidesz government also clashed with the EU Commission over human rights.
TVP has two main national channels, and operates regional services and the satellite network TV Polonia.
Public Polish Radio reaches just over half of the population, with more than 200 radio stations.
Last week Poland also introduced controversial changes to its constitutional court.
A new law requires the 15-strong court to reach a two-thirds majority with at least 13 members present, in order to pass most of its rulings. The PiS also appointed five judges to the court.
Critics say the changes will undermine democratic checks and balances.
I hear that they also introduced a law that will terminate all high level bureaucrat's contracts, unless they're specifically extended, and that the rules of entry will be relaxed to allow PiS to fill the positions with their loyalists?
Yes.
Poland is the new Hungary?
Quote from: Solmyr on January 04, 2016, 07:29:07 AM
Poland is the new Hungary?
Yes, at least that's what PiS is hoping for. There are several factors which make me hopeful they will not succeed, though.
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I think it's a bit of both. Germany is a convenient bogeyman for the "threat" of the "EU kulturkampf" - as some satirist once expressed via a cartoon, PiS is protecting traditional Polish Catholic families from hordes of vegetarian bicycle-riding German gay couples buying Polish land and forcibly adopting Polish children.
Sheesh, one genocidal occupation, and suddenly we're the bad guys. :(
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t31.0-8/10580825_10153434586738918_6583892072555847483_o.jpg)
"Put Poland under supervision? That will all just rest with us again!"
"Maybe the Russians can take care of half of it again."
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2016, 08:45:10 AM
Sheesh, one genocidal occupation, and suddenly we're the bad guys. :(
Oh, this is much older than that. The Bismarck's kultur-kampf, not the nazi occupation, is a direct template for that fear. Incidentally, that's one example of foreign occupation (another being the Swedish invasion) where I wish the invaders were more succesful. ;)
By the way - the German question was consistently a big part of the Polish public debate during the pre-independence and independence movements of the 19th and early 20th century - the question being whether we should play the role of Germany's junior partner (the so-called "Piast" strategy) or try to strike on our own by forming a "Mitteleuropa" coalition that tries to remain independent of both Germany and Russia (the so-called "Jagellon" strategy). This division is quite clear in PO/PiS politics.
Who'd be natural allies? The Czechs and Slovaks? Ukraine?
The other East Europeans with anti-German or anti-EU views are all russophiles (Zeman, Fico, Orban) so they are not compatible with PiS.
Yes, reality has always been a problem for the "Jagellon strategy". ;)
Namely, the rest of Mitteleuropa is not very keen to accept Poland's enlightened leadership.
Can we: call it a PiS-poor strategy?
So, the Polish foreign affairs minister is making waves here in Poland after giving some moronic interview to Bild and then being quoted by Reuters saying he would support the UK taking away some of the EU migrants' social rights if the UK supported placing of NATO bases in Poland.
He is now in a heavy damage control mode, especially as PiS won among the UK-based diaspora more heavily than in Poland proper. :lol:
Will PiS manage to piss off the Balts as well this time?
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 04, 2016, 09:58:53 AM
Will PiS manage to piss off the Balts as well this time?
Almost certainly.
Merkel will support Cameron on the social welfare topic if it raises the chance to keep the UK in the union.
Quote from: Martinus on November 27, 2015, 07:43:20 AM
Poland is not Hungary or Russia, mind you - people here are very contrarian and freedom-loving to the point of anarchism and any attempts at authoritarianism need to be very clever to succeed.
Emmanuel Todd famously predicted that Communism would fail in Poland - the traditional family structure was nuclear egalitarian and thus the tendency towards resistance to authoritarianism.
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 10:07:06 AM
Merkel will support Cameron on the social welfare topic if it raises the chance to keep the UK in the union.
What are Cameron's demands?
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I like the blase attitude when you're talking about grievances in living human memory in which Germans killed some six million Polish citizens.
The EU hasn't done anything about Hungary's media laws has it?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 04, 2016, 06:04:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I like the blase attitude when you're talking about grievances in living human memory in which Germans killed some six million Polish citizens.
As Marty said it's not so much about what the Nazis did in WW2, but rather what the Prussians did throughout the centuries, so age-old resentments seems fitting. I hadn't gotten the "Germans are Nazis" vibe from PiS, so I wondered if it has deeper historical roots. I think PiS is more likely to cite the Battle of Grunewald than the Warsaw Uprising.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 04, 2016, 06:04:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I like the blase attitude when you're talking about grievances in living human memory in which Germans killed some six million Polish citizens.
Yeah, but I don't think they care about that type of Polish citizen.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 04, 2016, 06:05:43 PM
The EU hasn't done anything about Hungary's media laws has it?
Nothing substantial, and there's quite a few EU politicians saying that this was a mistake and shouldn't be repeated with Poland.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 04, 2016, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 04, 2016, 06:04:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I like the blase attitude when you're talking about grievances in living human memory in which Germans killed some six million Polish citizens.
Yeah, but I don't think they care about that type of Polish citizen.
Idiot troll.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2016, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 27, 2015, 07:43:20 AM
Poland is not Hungary or Russia, mind you - people here are very contrarian and freedom-loving to the point of anarchism and any attempts at authoritarianism need to be very clever to succeed.
Emmanuel Todd famously predicted that Communism would fail in Poland - the traditional family structure was nuclear egalitarian and thus the tendency towards resistance to authoritarianism.
Link?
So, this is today's front page of a pro-PiS newspaper:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CX5w1kPWYAEaSa0.jpg)
Headline: Germans are attacking Poland again.
Shouldn't you guys be more worried about the Russians instead of the Germans? :unsure:
This is also a common Orbanist tactic: any criticism of the government from abroad is a vile assault on Hungarian freedom and sovereignty, or at the very least a deliberate insult and disrespect to the entire Hungarian nation.
As a result, the intellectual left will support these foreign criticisms, widening the gap between them and the common, nationalistic voter. The siege mentatilty will be constantly fueled by the government, creating/maintaining their own fanatical support base, all of this will diminish the power of protest demonstrations, and in time convince moderate opposition to either emigrate or stay silent.
The ONLY question mark here is if the opposition parties are inept/collaborating as the Hungarians have been. They have a short window of opportunity to draw a line in the sand as a united front, otherwise they are down for, and Poland will truly become Orbanistan Mark 2.
Yeah, how it plays out in the next months will be very interesting. I admit I do not know that much about Fides's rise to power (even though Kaczynski and PiS are clearly following the same template), but wasn't Fides supported to a large degree by the middle class and had only the disarrayed leftist liberals against it?
In Poland the situation is somewhat different in that the left is indeed in disarray (there is right now no leftist party in the Parliament), which leaves PiS as the only "socialist" party in the Parliament - but socialism has never been as popular in Poland, really. The three Parliamentary opposition parties (not counting the ex-rockman's popular movement which is probably the one most friendly to PiS - but also the least ideologically pure, and is likely to disintegrate within years) are rather centre-right, and include PO (which is supported by moderately conservative middle class and enterpreneurs), Nowoczesna (which is supported mainly by urban professional middle class which is liberal on social issues but very anti-socialist) and PSL (which is supported by conservative farmers). Their opposition to PiS comes not as much from ideological differences but from being parties of aspiring and successful people (each in their own demographics) who look to the West and generally want to be a part of it.
PO also has a strong card up its sleeve - i.e. Donald Tusk, the ex-prime minister, who is currently the President of the European Council, and has been largely untarnished by the "Waitergate" (he was never taped) and (unless PiS goes all the way to do something like arrest him on some trumped up charges) has all the making of returning like a white knight to save Poland during the next elections.
QuoteYeah, how it plays out in the next months will be very interesting. I admit I do not know that much about Fides's rise to power (even though Kaczynski and PiS are clearly following the same template), but wasn't Fides supported to a large degree by the middle class and had only the disarrayed leftist liberals against it?
Initially yes but by the time they were pulling the same crap the Polish government is pulling now, they either lost that support, or triggered the loss of it.
Just me personally have known two guys who were unsuffarably proud Fidesz supporters prior to the 2010 elections (both middle-class/white collar guys). Fast forward about 2 years, and one was totally hating them, the other bitterly disillusionised
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 02:28:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 04, 2016, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 04, 2016, 06:04:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I like the blase attitude when you're talking about grievances in living human memory in which Germans killed some six million Polish citizens.
Yeah, but I don't think they care about that type of Polish citizen.
Idiot troll.
:lol: You seem to forget that when you post shit, I can read it.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 05, 2016, 09:32:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 02:28:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 04, 2016, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 04, 2016, 06:04:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
I never really got the reason why PiS is so anti-German. Is it because of current political issues or just age-old resentments?
I like the blase attitude when you're talking about grievances in living human memory in which Germans killed some six million Polish citizens.
Yeah, but I don't think they care about that type of Polish citizen.
Idiot troll.
:lol: You seem to forget that when you post shit, I can read it.
And when you post shit, we can all read it. :(
You can't make me read! :angry:
QuoteI'm all with the Brits on this. This is fucking disgraceful (I am not talking about killing some Hamas dude but stealing the identities of British citizens to carry out the deed). Fucking Jews think they can do anything because their American fuckbuddies will protect them.
Quote from a Polish citizen
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html)
Fact: after WW2 the Poles thought there were too many Jews in Poland.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 05, 2016, 11:23:51 AM
QuoteI'm all with the Brits on this. This is fucking disgraceful (I am not talking about killing some Hamas dude but stealing the identities of British citizens to carry out the deed). Fucking Jews think they can do anything because their American fuckbuddies will protect them.
Quote from a Polish citizen
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html)
If we judge people by the Internet comments originating from their countries, then Americans aren't going to fare to well either. Even on the question of antisemitism.
The idiocy of Raz's statement was not his insinuation that some Poles cheered on the Holocaust, but that outside of Holocaust, Poland and Poles did not suffer under German occupation.
Quote from: Queequeg on January 05, 2016, 03:41:47 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2016, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 27, 2015, 07:43:20 AM
Poland is not Hungary or Russia, mind you - people here are very contrarian and freedom-loving to the point of anarchism and any attempts at authoritarianism need to be very clever to succeed.
Emmanuel Todd famously predicted that Communism would fail in Poland - the traditional family structure was nuclear egalitarian and thus the tendency towards resistance to authoritarianism.
Link?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Final-Fall-Decomposition-Soviet/dp/0918294037
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 12:18:57 PM
The idiocy of Raz's statement was not his insinuation that some Poles cheered on the Holocaust, but that outside of Holocaust, Poland and Poles did not suffer under German occupation.
No it wasn't you idiot. I said that that they didn't really care about that type of Pole (Jewish Poles).
Quote from: DGuller on January 05, 2016, 11:30:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 05, 2016, 11:23:51 AM
QuoteI'm all with the Brits on this. This is fucking disgraceful (I am not talking about killing some Hamas dude but stealing the identities of British citizens to carry out the deed). Fucking Jews think they can do anything because their American fuckbuddies will protect them.
Quote from a Polish citizen
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3755.0.html)
If we judge people by the Internet comments originating from their countries, then Americans aren't going to fare to well either. Even on the question of antisemitism.
How about a study from the ADL? http://global100.adl.org/#country/poland/2014
Question: Do Jews still talk to much about the Holocaust? 62% say "Yes!".
On the subject of loss in World War Two:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Polish_victim_of_German_Luftwaffe_action_1939.jpg)
I couldn't help but reflect that this must have been one of the first few or tens of thousands of deaths in the War in Europe, I wonder how many then comprehended the possibility of the mass slaughter that would follow?
Full story behind the photo here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_victim_of_German_Luftwaffe_action_1939.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_victim_of_German_Luftwaffe_action_1939.jpg)
QuoteEnglish: Kazimiera Mika, a ten-year-old Polish girl, mourns the death of her older sister, who was killed in a field near Jana Ostroroga Street in Warsaw during a German air raid by Luftwaffe.
Photographer Julien Bryan described the scene: "As we drove by a small field at the edge of town we were just a few minutes too late to witness a tragic event, the most incredible of all. Seven women had been digging potatoes in a field. There was no flour in their district, and they were desperate for food. Suddenly two German planes appeared from nowhere and dropped two bombs only two hundred yards away on a small home. Two women in the house were killed. The potato diggers dropped flat upon the ground, hoping to be unnoticed. After the bombers had gone, the women returned to their work. They had to have food.
But the Nazi fliers were not satisfied with their work. In a few minutes they came back and swooped down to within two hundred feet of the ground, this time raking the field with machine-gun fire. Two of the seven women were killed. The other five escaped somehow.
While I was photographing the bodies, a little ten-year old girl came running up and stood transfixed by one of the dead. The woman was her older sister. The child had never before seen death and couldn't understand why her sister would not speak to her...
The child looked at us in bewilderment. I threw my arm about her and held her tightly, trying to comfort her. She cried. So did I and the two Polish officers who were with me..." [Source: Bryan, Julien. "Warsaw: 1939 Siege; 1959 Warsaw Revisited."]
In September 1959 Julien Bryan wrote more about it in Look magazine:
In the offices of the Express, that child, Kazimiera Mika, now 30, and I were reunited. I asked her if she remembered anything of that tragic day in the potato field. "I should," she replied quietly. "It was the day I lost my sister, the day I first saw death, and the first time I met a foreigner - you." Today, Kazimiera is married to a Warsaw streetcar motorman. They have a 12-year-old girl and a boy, 9, and the family lives in a 1 1/2-room apartment, typical of the overcrowded conditions of war-racked Poland. .......
Thanks, mongers. War, tragedy is very "prosaic", almost quotidian. That's why I think we should help the refugees from Syria, contrary to what the PiS voters may think.
we had a nice overview of what PiS intends to do/has already done on the opinionpages of the national broadcaster. His final conclusion was that what PiS is doing -especially in regards to media- reeks of the communists. Constantly comparing PiS with the communists and/or Putin's Russians might be a nice way to tar them with 'in the pocket of foreign influences'-brush. Especially if they can bring up relevant similar policies the communists & Putinists enacted.
Tamas, I have a question for you, going back to the PiS - Fides comparisons - to what extent Fides is insane? :P
What I mean by that, PiS in Poland is not just populist but they have a number of little pet peeves that make them seem quite nuts - for example they have just reopened the investigation into the Smolensk crash, with a running hypothesis being that it was caused by Putin in cahoots with the then Polish government. I wonder to what extent shit like this will be their downfall - I have an impression that Orban and Fides are bastards, but they are clever, cynical bastards - and this makes them popular with the masses (in the same way Erdogan or Putin are). On the other hand, Kaczynski and his cohorts are out of it.
Orban has pledged his support for the PiS government. He said he would oppose any sanctions against Poland and would if necessary veto them.
From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times. Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times. Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.
Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 06:12:37 AM
Tamas, I have a question for you, going back to the PiS - Fides comparisons - to what extent Fides is insane? :P
What I mean by that, PiS in Poland is not just populist but they have a number of little pet peeves that make them seem quite nuts - for example they have just reopened the investigation into the Smolensk crash, with a running hypothesis being that it was caused by Putin in cahoots with the then Polish government. I wonder to what extent shit like this will be their downfall - I have an impression that Orban and Fides are bastards, but they are clever, cynical bastards - and this makes them popular with the masses (in the same way Erdogan or Putin are). On the other hand, Kaczynski and his cohorts are out of it.
Their only insanity is Orban's love of sports, football in particular. Then again it doubles as a great source of corruption money, so who knows how much of it is irrational.
Otherwise they would do ANYTHING but it would be a calculated step for more power or money.
Quote from: Tamas on January 08, 2016, 04:22:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 06:12:37 AM
Tamas, I have a question for you, going back to the PiS - Fides comparisons - to what extent Fides is insane? :P
What I mean by that, PiS in Poland is not just populist but they have a number of little pet peeves that make them seem quite nuts - for example they have just reopened the investigation into the Smolensk crash, with a running hypothesis being that it was caused by Putin in cahoots with the then Polish government. I wonder to what extent shit like this will be their downfall - I have an impression that Orban and Fides are bastards, but they are clever, cynical bastards - and this makes them popular with the masses (in the same way Erdogan or Putin are). On the other hand, Kaczynski and his cohorts are out of it.
Their only insanity is Orban's love of sports, football in particular. Then again it doubles as a great source of corruption money, so who knows how much of it is irrational.
Otherwise they would do ANYTHING but it would be a calculated step for more power or money.
This gives me hope - Kaczynski and his cohorts are much more idiosyncratic. :P
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times. Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.
Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.
It's almost like people are getting bored and want to set the house on fire just for shits and giggles. This anti-incumbent mood may be a beneficial instinct in some sense that preserves the health of democracy, but on the other hand it doesn't incentivize parties to be better custodians of their country when in power, since the power will just cycle back to them no matter how they act.
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2016, 04:27:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times. Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.
Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.
It's almost like people are getting bored and want to set the house on fire just for shits and giggles. This anti-incumbent mood may be a beneficial instinct in some sense that preserves the health of democracy, but on the other hand it doesn't incentivize parties to be better custodians of their country when in power, since the power will just cycle back to them no matter how they act.
In a two-party system, yeah. In multi-party system, not such much. Some parties simply disintegrate if they screw up too badly.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 04:36:03 PM
In a two-party system, yeah. In multi-party system, not such much. Some parties simply disintegrate if they screw up too badly.
Good point. How many parties do you have in Poland? It feels like I've been hearing about these piss clowns since forever.
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2016, 04:27:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
From an outside perspective, the Civic Platform government looks like one of the most successful governments in Polish history - its management of the economic crisis was probably the best of any other government in the EU, and Poland's foreign policy clout and prestige were higher than they've ever been in modern times. Seems nuts to ditch such a competent government for these PiS clowns.
Yeah, but history is full of examples of democracies ditching competent governments after 8 years (two terms) in power. The question is what will happen during the next elections.
It's almost like people are getting bored and want to set the house on fire just for shits and giggles. This anti-incumbent mood may be a beneficial instinct in some sense that preserves the health of democracy, but on the other hand it doesn't incentivize parties to be better custodians of their country when in power, since the power will just cycle back to them no matter how they act.
See the last Canadian election... :(
for a supposedly silent coup everyone sure is talking about it. It reminds of all the secret bases and meetings in the various missions of X-wing: if it was a secret spot you could be sure that there would be a star destroyer joining the party.
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2016, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 04:36:03 PM
In a two-party system, yeah. In multi-party system, not such much. Some parties simply disintegrate if they screw up too badly.
Good point. How many parties do you have in Poland? It feels like I've been hearing about these piss clowns since forever.
Not counting the fringe parties that never make it to the parliament, we have 4 parties that have been around for more than 10 years (i.e. PO, PiS, SLD - the social democrats/former commies, and PSL - conservative farmers; this is the first year when SLD did not get a single seat in the Parliament). In addition, every elections there is at least 1 (this time we had 2) party that is completely new but manages to get seats in the Parliament.
SLD is the best example of a party that slowly deteriorates into oblivion after losing power - in 2000 they had both the President and the Parliamentary majority, but since they lost the elections in 2005 (after a series of scandals), they have been getting weaker and weaker. It seemed like PO may actually share this fate but they seem to be bouncing back, mainly thanks to PiS's antics.
Quote from: Barrister on January 08, 2016, 04:49:49 PM
See the last Canadian election... :(
Not really comparable though - whatever your feelings about Trudeau and the Liberals, you can't compare them to these PiSsers in Poland.
QuoteOn the subject of loss in World War Two:
Thanks Mongers for the story behind that picture. I've seen that picture before and wondered what the story behind it was, as it seemed symbolic of the tragedy of the innocents of the war.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/polands-constitutional-crisis-deepens-after-top-court-annuls-law-1457531887
QuotePoland's Constitutional Crisis Deepens After Top Court Annuls Law
Warsaw has threatened not to publish court decision to prevent it from being legally binding
WARSAW—Poland's top court on Wednesday rejected legislation that critics say would increase the influence of the government over its rulings, deepening the country's worst constitutional standoff since the end of communism in 1989.
The Constitutional Tribunal annulled new legislation passed by Poland's right-leaning government that has divided Poland for months, leading to opposition protests and pressure from Poland's allies to reverse the rules.
Polish Prime Minister Beata Szydlo has said she wouldn't abide by the court's ruling.
The court said it annulled the parliament-passed law on the grounds that it required the court to make rulings based on a two-third majority rather than simple majority of its members, a move the court argued would undermine its ability to dispense justice.
Since taking power in November, Poland's right-leaning Law and Justice government has moved to install its judges at the Constitutional Tribunal, whose rulings on legislation are final. The governing camp reversed appointments made in the previous term of parliament by its political rivals.
In anticipation of the court's decision, Prime Minister Beata Szydlo said on Tuesday that her administration wouldn't publish it in an official gazette which Polish law requires for the decision to be binding.
Foreign governments have mostly sided with Poland's opposition on the matter. The U.S. has put pressure on the Polish government to recognize the court's rulings.
Warsaw has remained unbowed. Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the leader of the Law and Justice party on Monday flatly rejected the pleas from abroad, comparing them to pressure put on Poland's governments by the Soviet Union during the communist era.
TL;DR: Polish constitutional court dismisses new law governing its business as unconstitutional. Government refuses to accept decision, because court didn't follow the law it now struck down. The law requires 2/3 majority decisions by the judges, and that cases are treated strictly in the order in which they are filed.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-politics-judiciary-idUSKBN1A30U8
QuotePolish parliament debates bill critics say undermines judiciary
WARSAW (Reuters) - Surrounded by security guards and amid opposition deputies' shouts of "shame" and "disgrace", Poland's parliament debated a bill on Tuesday that critics say would erode the independence of the judiciary.
The ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS), which has defied past accusations by critics including the European Union that its policies undermine media freedom and civil liberties, is seeking reforms it says will make the Supreme Court more accountable.
The debate follows a bill passed on Friday that will end the terms of current members of the National Council of the Judiciary (KRS), one of main judiciary organs in Poland, and give parliament powers to choose 15 of its 25 members. That would deliver effective control to PiS with its large majority.
The PiS is a socially conservative party, espousing what it sees as traditional national values at a time of euroskeptcism. That conservatism is tempered by more "left-wing" welfare policies.
The parliament building has been cordoned off by barriers since Sunday, when thousands rallied against the Supreme Court reforms that would give the PiS broad freedom to replace all its judges. They are currently appointed by the President at the suggestion of the KRS.
A small group of protesters urged lawmakers on Tuesday as they were walking into the building to vote against holding the debate.
"Cowards, cowards," deputies of the parliamentary opposition chanted as the speaker of the chamber began the debate.
Political Standoff
Critics and the centrist opposition say the new proposals violate the constitutional separation of powers, something the government denies.
PiS says it has a democratic mandate to make the judiciary more efficient and accountable. Since winning the 2015 election, it has overhauled the constitutional court and given the Justice Ministry control over the prosecutor general's office.
Threatening to take Poland to court, the European Union executive has said those measures undermined democratic checks and balances.
In December, Poland saw its biggest political standoff in years when oppositions leaders blocked for a month the parliament's plenary hall podium ahead of a budget vote, after objecting to plans by PiS to curb media access to parliament.
Pawel Olszewski, a member of the largest parliamentary opposition grouping, the Civic Platform, called for a moment of silence after the vote on the debate took place on Tuesday, "because on this day, July 18, our democracy is de-facto dying".
Unban Mart. We are losing valuable polack mocking opportunities.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2017, 08:19:22 AM
Unban Mart. We are losing valuable polack mocking opportunities.
Join Facebook. He's on there.
Facebook is for plebs.
And it was once only for the children of elites. :weep:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/03/world/europe/poland-supreme-court-protest.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
QuotePoland Purges Supreme Court, and Protesters Take to Streets
WARSAW — Poland's government carried out a sweeping purge of the Supreme Court on Tuesday night, eroding the judiciary's independence, escalating a confrontation with the European Union over the rule of law and further dividing this nation. Tens of thousands took to the streets in protest.
Poland was once a beacon for countries struggling to escape the yoke of the Soviet Union and embrace Western democracy. But it is now in league with neighboring nations, like Hungary, whose leaders have turned to authoritarian means to tighten their grip on power, presenting a grave challenge to a European Union already grappling with nationalist, populist and anti-immigrant movements.
The forced retirements of up to 27 of 72 Supreme Court justices, including the top judge, and the creation of a judicial disciplinary chamber were the latest in a series of steps by Poland's right-wing Law and Justice Party to take over the justice system.
For years, the party has demonized judges as unreconstructed Communists and obstructionists. After coming to power in 2015, it took control of the Constitutional Tribunal, which is tasked with ensuring that laws do not violate the Constitution, and gave authority over the country's prosecutors to the Ministry of Justice. Most recently, it asserted new powers to select judges. In recent days, judges who have spoken out against the changes have reported being harassed and intimidated.
Each move has been greeted with international condemnation and angry demonstrations.
Hours before the purge took effect at midnight, Poles again took to the streets in more than 60 cities and towns around the country. As the sun set in Warsaw, crowds gathered in front of a memorial dedicated to those who died in the city's 1944 uprising against Nazi Germany, chanting an old but familiar refrain: "Solidarnosc."
But now, calls for solidarity were not directed at an occupying force — or at Communist rule, which the labor-backed Solidarity movement brought down in 1989 — but at a democratically elected government, albeit one the demonstrators fear is undermining the system they fought so hard to build.
"We are here because of the destruction of the judiciary in Poland," said Kamila Wrzesinska, who stood amid a sea of Polish and European Union flags. Organizers passed out placards with one word: "Constitution."
In an interview just days ago, the leader of the Supreme Court, Malgorzata Gersdorf, expressed deep concern about her country's direction.
"I don't want to say that I am terrified," she said, "but without a doubt this is not a direction I would like to go in, nor support, as I think it destroys what has been built over the last 25 years."
The new law passed by Parliament requires that judges retire when they turn 65 unless they appeal to the country's president, Andrzej Duda, who has sole discretion over whether they can remain.
Justice Gersdorf, who is 65, and more than a dozen others have refused to make such appeals, saying that the law itself was unconstitutional. Their supporters say the law was aimed at certain judges and had little to do with age, an argument that was bolstered when the government named Justice Gersdorf's replacement: the 66-year-old judge Jozef Iwulski.
Justice Gersdorf, following through on a vow she had made, showed up for work with other justices Wednesday morning, setting the stage for a possible confrontation with the authorities.
Officials with the governing party say they are simply overhauling a corrupt system that obstructs popular will. But critics, both in Poland and abroad, contend they are building one in which the courts are subservient to politicians.
In his zeal to create what he calls a Fourth Republic, free of any vestige of Communist rule and vest the state with ever greater power, the party's leader, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, has also set the nation on a collision course with the European Union. The bloc views the changes as a threat to the rule of law and the Western values at the heart of the treaty binding the union of nations.
But the European Union's failure to curb Hungary's drift toward authoritarianism has emboldened other leaders in the region, where right-wing nationalism and populism are on the rise. Right-wing governments have taken power recently in Austria and Italy, while Chancellor Angela Merkel, a guardian of liberal Western values, just agreed to build camps on Germany's borders to process migrants.
If Poland is not made to pay a high price for its actions, critics and outside legal experts worry, currents unraveling democracy in member states will be further strengthened.
It is far from clear how much more the European Union can do. For the first time in its history, it has turned to the so-called nuclear option, invoking Article 7 of its founding treaty. Poland could lose its voting rights as part of that process, although that would require a unanimous vote by the 28 member nations — a highly unlikely result, considering its strong backing from other countries that have moved in an authoritarian direction.
European officials also announced on Monday that a so-called infringement procedure had been started against Poland, which could result in the matter being referred to the European Court of Justice. The court could declare the judicial overhaul unconstitutional, but it cannot stop it.
For now, many of the country's 10,000 judges remain united in their opposition to the government's measures. And counter-pressures are building in Poland's vibrant civil society.
Lech Walesa, who led the Solidarity movement that ended Communist rule in Poland and then served as president from 1990 to 1995, vowed on Sunday to lead a campaign of civil disobedience if Justice Gersdorf and other judges were removed.
"I am saying a definite 'enough' to this," he wrote on Facebook. "If they raise their paws against the Supreme Court, then I am going to Warsaw."
Judges who have spoken out publicly against the purge have reported being threatened, harassed and intimidated.
Waldemar Zurek, a former spokesman for the National Council of the Judiciary and a district court judge in the city of Krakow, has been openly critical of the changes. In response, he says, both he and his family have been subject to intense pressure and abuse, including death threats.
Judge Zurek said he was dismissed as a spokesman for the courts, threatened with disciplinary sanctions over fabricated allegations, and harassed by government agents, including at his home. His financial records were improperly disclosed, he has faced what he calls a trumped-up investigations about a long-ago real-estate transaction, and he has gotten scores of threatening emails and letters.
"All those who stand in the way of the minister become public enemies," he said. "They are spat on."
Justice Gersdorf, whose title is first president of the Supreme Court, said she thought that the mandatory retirement age was set with her in mind. Backed by 63 other judges on the court, who voted last week that she should stay in office, Justice Gersdorf said that she would continue to show up for work.
"I have no intention of resigning, since my term of office is six years," she said.
Such defiance is the latest and most high-profile development in a confrontation that has been building for months.
In December, the Venice Commission, which is responsible for monitoring rule of law for the European Union, expressed "grave concerns" that the judicial overhaul put "at serious risk the independence of all parts of the Polish judiciary."
Poland was given until the end of June to make changes that would satisfy those concerns. But no agreement was reached in meetings last week in Luxembourg, and Polish leaders vowed to press ahead.
"In essence, this is the end," Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said on Thursday after meeting with European leaders. "We do not intend to withdraw from this reform."
Mr. Kaczynski, the governing party's leader, has not hidden his intentions.
"In a democracy, the sovereign is the people, their representative in Parliament and, in the Polish case, the elected president," he said in a 2016 speech. "If we are to have a democratic state of law, no state authority, including the Constitutional Tribunal, can disregard legislation."
Lacking the two-thirds majority needed in Parliament to change the Constitution, the party instead took control of the tribunal. After that, the tribunal approved laws, like those restructuring the courts, that critics have called unconstitutional.
The party then gave the Minister of Justice the role of prosecutor general, which had previously been independent, and it took over the National Council of the Judiciary, which is responsible for appointing judges.
Parliament also created a new disciplinary chamber that the opposition says would be used to attack judges who displeased the party.
"Judges in this disciplinary chamber will be earning 40 percent more than the justices on the Supreme Court," Justice Gersdorf said. "It has to be emphasized that this is political bribery."
One of Poland's great accomplishments after 1989 was restoring public faith in the courts, she said, but it "will require years of rebuilding" to undo the damage being done to that achievement.
She shrugged off concerns that she might have to pay a high price for her defiance.
"They are not putting people in jail yet," she said.
But the migrant situation!
At least that would be the answer of the average Hungarian voter.
How far the bacon for countries escaping the yolk of the Soviet Union has fallen. :(
Quote from: The Brain on July 04, 2018, 05:48:22 AM
How far the bacon for countries escaping the yolk of the Soviet Union has fallen. :(
They are just returning to the kind of feudal systems they have always known.
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2018, 05:38:30 AM
But the migrant situation!
At least that would be the answer of the average Hungarian voter.
Funny thing - near work there's a small church of the Polish community here. They have the (mandatory?) John Paul II statue, and a cross that commemorates two events:
1. The Soviet massacre of Poles at Katyn in 1940
2. The 2010 plane crash in which Pres. Kaczynski died and where his brother thinks it was a Russian conspiracy.
It originally read:
1940 Katyn
2010 Smolensk
They've recently added a small note saying that this just commemorates the tragic death of Pres. K. and is not meant to imply anything else, no siree.
:lol:
My impression is that the 2010 crash has been made into an official martyrdom story and the Russian plot angle has been made canon by the government.
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2018, 06:15:32 AM
:lol:
My impression is that the 2010 crash has been made into an official martyrdom story and the Russian plot angle has been made canon by the government.
There are few things Poles love more than martyrdom. :P
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 06:17:51 AM
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
Didn't Orban promise to veto any major measures against Poland?
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 06:17:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2018, 06:15:32 AM
:lol:
My impression is that the 2010 crash has been made into an official martyrdom story and the Russian plot angle has been made canon by the government.
There are few things Poles love more than martyrdom. :P
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
The EU is leveling sanctions because the Poles believe the plane crash was a Russian plot?
Quote from: dps on July 04, 2018, 07:24:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 06:17:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2018, 06:15:32 AM
:lol:
My impression is that the 2010 crash has been made into an official martyrdom story and the Russian plot angle has been made canon by the government.
There are few things Poles love more than martyrdom. :P
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
The EU is leveling sanctions because the Poles believe the plane crash was a Russian plot?
No, because of their judiciary reform.
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 07:28:14 AM
Quote from: dps on July 04, 2018, 07:24:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 06:17:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2018, 06:15:32 AM
:lol:
My impression is that the 2010 crash has been made into an official martyrdom story and the Russian plot angle has been made canon by the government.
There are few things Poles love more than martyrdom. :P
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
The EU is leveling sanctions because the Poles believe the plane crash was a Russian plot?
No, because of their judiciary reform.
That's what I though, but you quoted a post about the plane crash, so I wondered.
Quote from: Syt on July 04, 2018, 07:00:51 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 06:17:51 AM
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
Didn't Orban promise to veto any major measures against Poland?
Hungary is also on notice because of their own descent into authoritarianism. I have no idea if the sanctioning mechanism requires unanimity or not, but if it does then on practical terms they're enabling each other by blocking EU sanctions.
Quote from: dps on July 04, 2018, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 07:28:14 AM
Quote from: dps on July 04, 2018, 07:24:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 06:17:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2018, 06:15:32 AM
:lol:
My impression is that the 2010 crash has been made into an official martyrdom story and the Russian plot angle has been made canon by the government.
There are few things Poles love more than martyrdom. :P
AFAIK the EU has already started a sanctioning process against Poland because of this, let's see if Mr. Potato caves in when EU monies are cut.
The EU is leveling sanctions because the Poles believe the plane crash was a Russian plot?
No, because of their judiciary reform.
That's what I though, but you quoted a post about the plane crash, so I wondered.
I just took advantage of the martyrdom reference. :P
Quote from: The Larch on July 04, 2018, 07:30:17 AM
but if it does then on practical terms they're enabling each other by blocking EU sanctions.
That's exactly what they are doing.
The EU was not designed with malicious use in mind.
Especially in the case of Hungary it has become a great tool to foster an authoritarian regime. The influx of EU money has been used to raise a new oligarchy personally loyal to Orban and him only, while the EU is also an amazing pressuve valve. The Hungarians working and living abroad are estimated anywhere between 600k and 1 million. Sure, a good number of these left due to the economic opportunities, but a lot of them are skilled workers who had no trouble finding employment in Hungary, they just couldn't take all the shit. In past eras they would be stuck inside the borders frustrated and angry. Now they can just pack up and leave the country to the ignorant bigots who always end up ruling it, historically.