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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Josquius on April 04, 2011, 03:39:14 AM

Title: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2011, 03:39:14 AM
...in a fortnight.

For now though here's the first '15' (more like 13) minutes.

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/News/Entry/Fifteen_Minute_Preview/

Jon Snow pronounces watching wrong. OMFG series ruined foreva.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 04, 2011, 03:48:34 AM
Blind Guardian had two tracks dedicated to SoIaF on their most recent album:

A Voice In The Dark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1px6jEHWzfw&feature=fvst)
and
War of the Thrones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7J_3MKZNQc)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 04, 2011, 05:54:25 AM
Which network is going to make RuneQuest II?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 04, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 04, 2011, 05:54:25 AM
Which network is going to make RuneQuest II?

:lol:

Or Elric.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 08:15:46 AM
There were some differences from the books but I really enjoyed the preview.  Looking forward to April 17!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 04, 2011, 09:07:17 AM
fwapfwapfwapfwapfwap
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Also, what the fuck do the wildlings eat?  They live in a land where it's always snowing!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Also, what the fuck do the wildlings eat?  They live in a land where it's always snowing!

The Sami, Canadian and Siberian natives manage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 10:23:14 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
what the fuck do the wildlings eat?  They live in a land where it's always snowing!

From what I gather there are rather few wildlings living in an enormous wilderness.  Besides it does not always snow from A Clash of Kings it seems the southern Wildlings have little farming villages.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 04, 2011, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Wow, my taste in literature is completely opposite to yours.
The only reason I like AsoIaF so much is because it is so light in magic and so heavy in medieval politicking and warfare.

Had the northern front been the center of the story, it would have been just another run of the mill fantasy crap.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 04, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Also, what the fuck do the wildlings eat?  They live in a land where it's always snowing!

The Sami, Canadian and Siberian natives manage.

Only the Inuit live in perpetual snow, and they had a stone age society of hunter-gatherers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on April 04, 2011, 10:34:23 AM
Changes to the prologue were weird. Why the Others/White Walkers simply let the last guy go? OMG RUINED FOREVAR  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 10:39:04 AM
Quote from: Sahib on April 04, 2011, 10:34:23 AM
Changes to the prologue were weird. Why the Others/White Walkers simply let the last guy go? OMG RUINED FOREVAR  :mad:


It was necessary.   To do the prologue right would have taken too long and they got the basic point across: The Others are coming to break shit up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on April 04, 2011, 10:42:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Wow, my taste in literature is completely opposite to yours.
The only reason I like AsoIaF so much is because it is so light in magic and so heavy in medieval politicking and warfare.

Had the northern front been the center of the story, it would have been just another run of the mill fantasy crap.



Indeed.  Defeat the Big Bad.  The Wars of the Roses stuff is what made the series stand out.  It is unfortunate that he has abandoned it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 04, 2011, 10:54:23 AM
That was beautiful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

I see it like the black death approaching during the Hundred Years War.  An outside force of nature about to roll over society while the leadership is busy doing their petty noble crap.  They are so distracted by their petty problems they are not able to see the approaching cataclysms of Ice and Fire coming right for them.  I rather like the way he does it in the books because you the reader get caught up in the petty noble rivalries yourself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:08:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

I see it like the black death approaching during the Hundred Years War.  An outside force of nature about to roll over society while the leadership is busy doing their petty noble crap.  They are so distracted by their petty problems they are not able to see the approaching cataclysms of Ice and Fire coming right for them.  I rather like the way he does it in the books because you the reader get caught up in the petty noble rivalries yourself.

That's a common theme in Fantasy, but usually the Ice isn't moving at them at the speed of a glacier.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?

It's not finished.  If he cut out some of the stuff that doesn't move the plot along he'd be done by now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 04, 2011, 11:13:59 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?
:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

It starts out as a back story that comes more to the fore as the books progress.  Not sure what you want.  A simple plot where there is only one theme?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2011, 11:18:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?

It's not finished.  If he cut out some of the stuff that doesn't move the plot along he'd be done by now.

Actually he has the mystical northern front stuff pretty well worked out. He has said that its the political stuff down in Dorne that has had him stumped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 04, 2011, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
It starts out as a back story that comes more to the fore as the books progress.  Not sure what you want.  A simple plot where there is only one theme?
there are about ten of these back stories.  That's the problem with the books.  They would be twice as good with half the verbiage.  Not that I am saying they are bad books, but they definitely fall far short of well-written. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 04, 2011, 11:31:32 AM
Fatty can't focus for shit and his books are all over the place. I still enjoyed them a lot, and I don't expect or long for an ending that ties it all together. It's the ride, not the destination.

And I don't give a fuck about the TV series. I will be forced to watch it for social reasons though, but I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 04, 2011, 11:35:06 AM
I agree with Raz completely.

Even the War of the Roses plot isn't going anywhere. Every time a challenger is defeated, another rises up. Sure, it might make some sense because Westeros was only loosely knit together, but what's the point?

And I'm still bothered by the winter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 11:36:30 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 04, 2011, 11:31:32 AM
I still enjoyed them a lot, and I don't expect or long for an ending that ties it all together. It's the ride, not the destination.

I agree completely.  It may not be great literature or whatever (and frankly whether it is or not is a matter of supreme indifference) but I really enjoy it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:46:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 04, 2011, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:16:41 AM
It starts out as a back story that comes more to the fore as the books progress.  Not sure what you want.  A simple plot where there is only one theme?
there are about ten of these back stories.  That's the problem with the books.  They would be twice as good with half the verbiage.  Not that I am saying they are bad books, but they definitely fall far short of well-written.

I cant think of ten that are equivalent to the ones we have identified.  I can think of three -   The war of the Roses (with all its various branches), Winter is coming, and the return of the Queen.  What other 7 are you thinking of?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on April 04, 2011, 11:56:32 AM
Martin is proof positive that a good editor needs a good editor.  Wild Cards is golden; ASOIAF is turgid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 04, 2011, 12:04:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:46:45 AM
I cant think of ten that are equivalent to the ones we have identified.  I can think of three -   The war of the Roses (with all its various branches), Winter is coming, and the return of the Queen.  What other 7 are you thinking of?

Are you seperating the Stark children? It's not clear why one of them is now becoming a blind assassin, and another one is on some vision quest with the native americans of Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 12:12:04 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 04, 2011, 12:04:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:46:45 AM
I cant think of ten that are equivalent to the ones we have identified.  I can think of three -   The war of the Roses (with all its various branches), Winter is coming, and the return of the Queen.  What other 7 are you thinking of?

Are you seperating the Stark children? It's not clear why one of them is now becoming a blind assassin, and another one is on some vision quest with the native americans of Westeros.

Ok, Blind Assassin is a fourth.

Vision quest is tied in with Winter is Coming isnt it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 12:21:19 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 04, 2011, 12:04:16 PM
Are you seperating the Stark children? It's not clear why one of them is now becoming a blind assassin, and another one is on some vision quest with the native americans of Westeros.

This is one of my 'yeah so?' moments.  If lots of sidestories and branching plots of branching plots is intolerable for you and you need to be told constantly how each thing fits together you are reading the wrong series.  It is not a bad thing to me, I love the scale of the story.  If you do not there are plenty of tighter and more focussed stories out there.  If the story did not have these elements it would be a different story and not the one I enjoy.  'Turgid' works great for me but it does not have to work for everybody.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2011, 12:26:10 PM
IMO a main motivation of George seems to be world building, he sends people off to the seven corners of westeros and beyond purely because it then gives him a chance to describe those places.
But meh, the books are still good. Except the 4th, that's a bit too fan fictiony and merely so-so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 04, 2011, 12:43:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 12:21:19 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 04, 2011, 12:04:16 PM
Are you seperating the Stark children? It's not clear why one of them is now becoming a blind assassin, and another one is on some vision quest with the native americans of Westeros.

This is one of my 'yeah so?' moments.  If lots of sidestories and branching plots of branching plots is intolerable for you and you need to be told constantly how each thing fits together you are reading the wrong series.  It is not a bad thing to me, I love the scale of the story.  If you do not there are plenty of tighter and more focussed stories out there.  If the story did not have these elements it would be a different story and not the one I enjoy.  'Turgid' works great for me but it does not have to work for everybody.

Are people not allowed to voice criticism, just like you voice your love?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 12:53:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 04, 2011, 12:43:12 PM
Are people not allowed to voice criticism, just like you voice your love?

Huh?  No.  I was saying that his criticism is accurate just that I think it is an essential part of the thing.  It is not a bug but a feature :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 04, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 12:53:47 PM
It is not a bug but a feature :P

wad? :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 04, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 12:53:47 PM
It is not a bug but a feature :P

wad? :(

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2011, 03:23:31 AM
Fuck, I'm all excited. This trailer is also awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qJsSEnhsuI

Also, the guys who play Renly and Loras are hot.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 10, 2011, 03:45:20 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Raz, why are you so full of hatred for the greatest story written since the LOTR?

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 10, 2011, 03:49:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
I"m fine with the war of the roses stuff, but if you are going to focus almost exclusively on that, why have ice monsters at all?  It's like the author doesn't know what to do with it.  It's similar to the dragon chick across the sea.  It's an interesting story, but in the first book it has almost no bearing on the rest of the plot.  A few characters make some references to it but that's about it.  As the books go on you can kind of see where he's going with this plot thread, but for the most part it doesn't add a great deal to the main story.  For me, it's a problem of focus.

I see it like the black death approaching during the Hundred Years War.  An outside force of nature about to roll over society while the leadership is busy doing their petty noble crap.  They are so distracted by their petty problems they are not able to see the approaching cataclysms of Ice and Fire coming right for them.  I rather like the way he does it in the books because you the reader get caught up in the petty noble rivalries yourself.

:hmm:

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2011, 05:24:13 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 04, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2011, 12:53:47 PM
It is not a bug but a feature :P

wad? :(

:yes:

Exactly. He could just as well complain that the book is set in middle ages style world or that it has dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 10, 2011, 08:35:59 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 04, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Also, what the fuck do the wildlings eat?  They live in a land where it's always snowing!

The Sami, Canadian and Siberian natives manage.

Only the Inuit live in perpetual snow, and they had a stone age society of hunter-gatherers.

Inuit do not in fact live in perpetual snow.  There is a brief arctic summer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 10, 2011, 02:45:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2011, 11:46:45 AM
I cant think of ten that are equivalent to the ones we have identified.  I can think of three -   The war of the Roses (with all its various branches), Winter is coming, and the return of the Queen.  What other 7 are you thinking of?
Let's see:  there's the female knight searching for Stark kids, there's Tyrion plotting against the various people, there's the blind assassin thing, there's the crippled kid going north, there's the other female Stark kid and her "protector," there's the Iron Island or whatever invading the North, there's the zombie Stark mom doing whatever she is doing (after the zombie duke or whatever zombified her), there's the plot in whatever that southern kingdom is (the daughter of the Duke down there or something)...

and that's off the top of my head.  There are probably more I cannot recall.

It is all interesting enough, I suppose, but by the time you get back to any of the main plot threads you have forgotten what was happening.  The series could use some serious addition by subtraction.  Publish the scrubbed portions as side stories on the web.  It's nt like the size of the book determines the cost or royalties, anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 10, 2011, 02:58:44 PM
Isn't the Iron Island itself also getting invaded? There's some sort of ruckus there.

What I like about the whole setup is that it would work marvelously as a setting for an RPG or a whole series of books. He's created a wonderfully rich world and if he was the kind of guy who actually wrote, there could come good things out of it.

Erikson has a similarily large number of concurrent plotlines but he manages to tie them off in an entirely different manner.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 10, 2011, 02:58:44 PM
Isn't the Iron Island itself also getting invaded? There's some sort of ruckus there.

What I like about the whole setup is that it would work marvelously as a setting for an RPG or a whole series of books. He's created a wonderfully rich world and if he was the kind of guy who actually wrote, there could come good things out of it.

Erikson has a similarily large number of concurrent plotlines but he manages to tie them off in an entirely different manner.

Yeah, I have always said that the books read like something from an author who started as a game master. You create this rich world with lots of interesting characters and an open-ended plot and then lose interest in the middle of it and fuck off to play Vampire the Masquerade. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 10, 2011, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 10, 2011, 08:35:59 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 04, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
You know, I would have enjoyed the book more if Martin actually focused a bit more on the monsters in the North.  The preview sets us up for a supernatural threat, but through out the 700 page book very little happens on that front.  While I do like the politicking and war, if you are going to set up a monstrous threat in the prologue you really should try to follow through with it.


Also, what the fuck do the wildlings eat?  They live in a land where it's always snowing!

The Sami, Canadian and Siberian natives manage.

Only the Inuit live in perpetual snow, and they had a stone age society of hunter-gatherers.

Inuit do not in fact live in perpetual snow.  There is a brief arctic summer.

Some of the places where they live the sea doesn't unfreeze in the summer.  At least not every year.  I'd call that perpetual snow.  Or at least Ice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 10, 2011, 04:09:29 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2011, 03:20:55 PM

Yeah, I have always said that the books read like something from an author who started as a game master. You create this rich world with lots of interesting characters and an open-ended plot and then lose interest in the middle of it and fuck off to play Vampire the Masquerade. :P
:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 05:35:16 PM
I caved and bought a Targaryen shirt at the HBO store, since it's 3 blocks from me.  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 10, 2011, 05:51:16 PM
I hope that's like 3 avenues.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 05:52:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 10, 2011, 05:51:16 PM
I hope that's like 3 avenues.

Duh. Some of us are cool enough to live in Hell's Kitchen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 10, 2011, 05:53:53 PM
I guess cool is one word for that.

/3 avenues away doesn't put you all that close. :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 05:57:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 10, 2011, 05:53:53 PM
I guess cool is one word for that.

/3 avenues away doesn't put you all that close. :huh:

To the store? I guess, but compared to Brooklyn it's a hop skip and a jump. (Not that I would ever go to Metropolitan).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 10, 2011, 06:01:33 PM
I wouldn't ever go to the Metropolitan. There are enough dive bars in Manhattan. Although I suppose that most don't have patios.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2011, 06:36:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
You create this rich world with lots of interesting characters and an open-ended plot and then lose interest in the middle of it and fuck off to play Vampire the Masquerade. :P

lol too true.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2011, 06:53:56 PM
At least Charles Dance will be in the vast majority of episodes.  He's cool as shit.

Alas, Julian Glover's only in 2 episodes.  His agent chose...poorly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2011, 07:17:13 PM
What particularly annoys me about the series not being finished is that what is taking him so long is the Dorne plotline. Freaking Dorne. I hated that part. So dull.

QuoteIsn't the Iron Island itself also getting invaded? There's some sort of ruckus there.

What I like about the whole setup is that it would work marvelously as a setting for an RPG or a whole series of books. He's created a wonderfully rich world and if he was the kind of guy who actually wrote, there could come good things out of it.

Erikson has a similarily large number of concurrent plotlines but he manages to tie them off in an entirely different manner.
Erikson?

Quote from: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 05:35:16 PM
I caved and bought a Targaryen shirt at the HBO store, since it's 3 blocks from me.  :blush:
I have set the Targaryen sigil as my wallpaper. Its just so pretty. Shame the others aren't so cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2011, 07:44:22 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2011, 07:17:13 PM
I have set the Targaryen sigil as my wallpaper. Its just so pretty. Shame the others aren't so cool.

Horde is cooler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 11, 2011, 01:12:41 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2011, 06:53:56 PM
At least Charles Dance will be in the vast majority of episodes.  He's cool as shit.

I think Lannisters, in general, are perfectly cast (at least the adults). Peter Dinklage will steal every scene he is in, the way Tyrion did in the books, and the twins are very well chosen too.

I think the only characters I have seen so far that made me go somewhat WTF, cast-wise, are the Tully sisters, especially Lysa - it was a while ago when I read the books, but wasn't she supposed to be a chubbo?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on April 11, 2011, 01:13:54 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 04, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 04, 2011, 05:54:25 AM
Which network is going to make RuneQuest II?

:lol:

Or Elric.

Elric would be nice, but probably not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 11, 2011, 01:41:24 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2011, 07:17:13 PM
What particularly annoys me about the series not being finished is that what is taking him so long is the Dorne plotline. Freaking Dorne. I hated that part. So dull.

QuoteIsn't the Iron Island itself also getting invaded? There's some sort of ruckus there.

What I like about the whole setup is that it would work marvelously as a setting for an RPG or a whole series of books. He's created a wonderfully rich world and if he was the kind of guy who actually wrote, there could come good things out of it.

Erikson has a similarily large number of concurrent plotlines but he manages to tie them off in an entirely different manner.
Erikson?

Quote from: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 05:35:16 PM
I caved and bought a Targaryen shirt at the HBO store, since it's 3 blocks from me.  :blush:
I have set the Targaryen sigil as my wallpaper. Its just so pretty. Shame the others aren't so cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malazan_Book_of_the_Fallen

Since Jordan died, he's currently my favourite Living author.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 11, 2011, 01:43:05 AM
Sanderson's taken that title for my. Mistborn was great, and The Way of Kings was just fantastic.

By the way Slargos, new Mistborn book is coming out, it'll be short, but I hear it has two new metals in it.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbrandonsanderson.com%2Fimages%2FAlloy-of-Law-UKsm.jpg&hash=5d7ee043f11e867c130431cf572bdec87d26053b)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 11, 2011, 04:34:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2011, 01:12:41 AM
I think Lannisters, in general, are perfectly cast (at least the adults). Peter Dinklage will steal every scene he is in, the way Tyrion did in the books, and the twins are very well chosen too.

I think the only characters I have seen so far that made me go somewhat WTF, cast-wise, are the Tully sisters, especially Lysa - it was a while ago when I read the books, but wasn't she supposed to be a chubbo?

Catlyn seems quite miscast to me- not hot. But Lysa seems quite good, chubbyness isn't integral to the character (though yeah, I think I remember that too) but the woman playing her does have the whole shrill crazyness thing about her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 11, 2011, 05:15:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 11, 2011, 04:34:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2011, 01:12:41 AM
I think Lannisters, in general, are perfectly cast (at least the adults). Peter Dinklage will steal every scene he is in, the way Tyrion did in the books, and the twins are very well chosen too.

I think the only characters I have seen so far that made me go somewhat WTF, cast-wise, are the Tully sisters, especially Lysa - it was a while ago when I read the books, but wasn't she supposed to be a chubbo?

Catlyn seems quite miscast to me- not hot. But Lysa seems quite good, chubbyness isn't integral to the character (though yeah, I think I remember that too) but the woman playing her does have the whole shrill crazyness thing about her.

Which one's Lena Hadley?  She has perfect nipples.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 11, 2011, 05:38:59 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 11, 2011, 01:43:05 AM
Sanderson's taken that title for my. Mistborn was great, and The Way of Kings was just fantastic.

By the way Slargos, new Mistborn book is coming out, it'll be short, but I hear it has two new metals in it.

Nice.  :licklips:

Sanderson is good, but he's not THAT good. What makes him interesting is in my opinion first and foremost his ability to create unique takes on magic and its exploitation. A lot of authors don't really fully exploit the capabilities inherent in their systems, but Sanderson is able to look at his creation with the eyes of a user rather than just a developer. I just wish he'd focus on the much more interesting Stormlight than Mistborn.

Erikson has taken the development of worlds and characters to a whole new level, and even if his books all more or less follow the same formula the storylines are simply breath taking in scope and complexity. Layered story-telling at its finest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 11, 2011, 07:02:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 11, 2011, 05:15:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 11, 2011, 04:34:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2011, 01:12:41 AM
I think Lannisters, in general, are perfectly cast (at least the adults). Peter Dinklage will steal every scene he is in, the way Tyrion did in the books, and the twins are very well chosen too.

I think the only characters I have seen so far that made me go somewhat WTF, cast-wise, are the Tully sisters, especially Lysa - it was a while ago when I read the books, but wasn't she supposed to be a chubbo?

Catlyn seems quite miscast to me- not hot. But Lysa seems quite good, chubbyness isn't integral to the character (though yeah, I think I remember that too) but the woman playing her does have the whole shrill crazyness thing about her.

Which one's Lena Hadley?  She has perfect nipples.

She plays a slut, so there should be ample opportunity for displaying them. :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 13, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
Who the fuck is Erickson?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 14, 2011, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 04, 2011, 11:35:06 AM
I agree with Raz completely.

Even the War of the Roses plot isn't going anywhere. Every time a challenger is defeated, another rises up.

Sounds like War of the Roses to me.

e.g.  WhoTF is this obscure Welshman and why does he think it's his turn to be King?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 14, 2011, 12:19:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
Who the fuck is Erickson?

Used to be in the cell phone business, IIRC
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 14, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 14, 2011, 12:19:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
Who the fuck is Erickson?

Used to be in the cell phone business, IIRC

teh fail joan, it's "Ericsson"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 12:29:40 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
Who the fuck is Erickson?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Erikson

Better prose. Better characters. Better story. Better setting.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 14, 2011, 12:19:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
Who the fuck is Erickson?

Used to be in the cell phone business, IIRC

teh fail joan, it's "Ericsson"

Double-fail, for reasons better left unmentioned. :console:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2011, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 12:29:40 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
Who the fuck is Erickson?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Erikson

Better prose. Better characters. Better story. Better setting.



Meh. Problem is the entire story is BORING as all hell. Never got through the first book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 14, 2011, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 12:29:40 PM

Better prose. Better characters. Better story. Better setting.

I actually have no problem with Martin's prose, so let's call that one subjective.

Characters. They both have some great ones, some really annoying ones. I find it harder to keep track of Erickson's characters, but he has a lot more and they don't all appear in all the books so it's understandable.

Better story? They both get bogged down after a few books. Erickson's books all start out slow. If you force yourself through the first half they get better, except the last one I read. Martin doesn't have this problem for me, but he bogs down a lot quicker.

Setting for me is the essence of a fantasy book. All the rest- characters, plot, etc- are just vehicles to explore the setting in. Erickson's world is much larger, both in space and time. Martin's more enjoyable, for me.

In all it's pretty close. I'd give Erickson the edge for potential volume and Martin for enjoyability. Obviously that's subjective.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 12:50:49 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 14, 2011, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 12:29:40 PM

Better prose. Better characters. Better story. Better setting.

I actually have no problem with Martin's prose, so let's call that one subjective.

Characters. They both have some great ones, some really annoying ones. I find it harder to keep track of Erickson's characters, but he has a lot more and they don't all appear in all the books so it's understandable.

Better story? They both get bogged down after a few books. Erickson's books all start out slow. If you force yourself through the first half they get better, except the last one I read. Martin doesn't have this problem for me, but he bogs down a lot quicker.

Setting for me is the essence of a fantasy book. All the rest- characters, plot, etc- are just vehicles to explore the setting in. Erickson's world is much larger, both in space and time. Martin's more enjoyable, for me.

In all it's pretty close. I'd give Erickson the edge for potential volume and Martin for enjoyability. Obviously that's subjective.

When Erikson named one of his characters "Ublala Pung", it immediately sold it for me. He is the man. :wub:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 14, 2011, 12:52:26 PM
I think you mean "manservant".

I think that was actually the most interesting book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 01:00:00 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 14, 2011, 12:52:26 PM
I think you mean "manservant".

I think that was actually the most interesting book.

That storyline was certainly up there.

I prefer the Chain of Dogs, myself.

What I find most wonderful about Erikson however is how deftly he weaves it all together. It's obvious a LOT of planning went into the project.

Edit: I should perhaps note that "Pung" is Swedish for "ball sack". Somehow I suspect Erikson knows this.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 14, 2011, 02:44:00 PM
With episode one still to air, looks like it will be renewed for S.2

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/14/game-of-thrones-season-two/?ew_packageID=20470532
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 14, 2011, 02:50:29 PM
I have read its already made back over half its budget just in overseas sales. Add in the advertising money and...yeah.

I'm curious about the second series though. The first book is mostly the main characters messing around in the city and playing politics with each other, battles only show up at the end. The second book though...a lot more action. Will be a very unique, never done before TV show (well, moreso than it already is) and expensive...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 02:53:23 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 14, 2011, 02:50:29 PM
I have read its already made back over half its budget just in overseas sales. Add in the advertising money and...yeah.

Excellent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 14, 2011, 02:53:41 PM
Advertising is only for Europe though. It runs here on HBO without ads.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 14, 2011, 03:08:06 PM
Reading that article:

QuoteShowrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss have been told to start thinking about storylines for next season,
:unsure:

Quote from: Josephus on April 14, 2011, 02:53:41 PM
Advertising is only for Europe though. It runs here on HBO without ads.
Weird, thought US TV was all about advertising. Guess it explains its odd running length on the TV guide.

But still, HBO makes its money from good shows somehow, though how they connect shows and subscribers beyond new ones appearing for new shows is beyond me. Then there's merchandice, DVD sales, etc... I think this will be quite profitable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 14, 2011, 03:12:25 PM
Yes. HBO is a subscription based channel and gets its revenues directly from its subscribers. And yes, merchandise. Buying a season's worth of their HBO programs can cost an arm and a leg.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 14, 2011, 03:08:06 PM
But still, HBO makes its money from good shows somehow, though how they connect shows and subscribers beyond new ones appearing for new shows is beyond me. Then there's merchandice, DVD sales, etc... I think this will be quite profitable.

People subscribe to see good shows and cancel when they do not have good shows out.  They track it but it is an imperfect science.  They wiffed by cancelling 'Rome' they had no idea how popular and profitable it was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 14, 2011, 03:29:12 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 14, 2011, 02:50:29 PM
I have read its already made back over half its budget just in overseas sales. Add in the advertising money and...yeah.

I'm curious about the second series though. The first book is mostly the main characters messing around in the city and playing politics with each other, battles only show up at the end. The second book though...a lot more action. Will be a very unique, never done before TV show (well, moreso than it already is) and expensive...

Not sure I agree. The "behind the scenes" plot is mostly action, but it is still a character-driven story - you just move the set to the battle camp or shit. Just think the way they did "Rome" - it's not like they all sat in Rome and conspired either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 14, 2011, 04:28:53 PM
I just read the overview of Gardens Of The Moon, the first book of that Ericksson dude, and I don't like it.
The reason ASOIAF appeals to me is because it is so light in magic and so heavy in feudal conflict.
This dude Ericksson seem to write just another run of the mill fantasy crap.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 14, 2011, 04:37:32 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 14, 2011, 04:28:53 PM
I just read the overview of Gardens Of The Moon, the first book of that Ericksson dude, and I don't like it.
The reason ASOIAF appeals to me is because it is so light in magic and so heavy in feudal conflict.
This dude Ericksson seem to write just another run of the mill fantasy crap.

Sure. No argument.

And the Torah is just another adventure book about spaghetti monsters.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2011, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 14, 2011, 02:50:29 PM
I have read its already made back over half its budget just in overseas sales. Add in the advertising money and...yeah.

I'm curious about the second series though. The first book is mostly the main characters messing around in the city and playing politics with each other, battles only show up at the end. The second book though...a lot more action. Will be a very unique, never done before TV show (well, moreso than it already is) and expensive...

Woah, you're right it's selling at $2.5 million per episode. That beats the Sopranos!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-top-1-billion-international-176907
QuoteThe network's new series "Game of Thrones" has already become its best-selling series abroad, beating prices fetched by "The Sopranos."

NEW YORK – Time Warner's HBO expects to top $1 billion in international revenue this year, up about 50% over the figure it recorded three years ago, the Wall Street Journal reported.

In a latest sign of international success, the premium pay network's newest show, Game of Thrones, premieres on Sunday, but has already become HBO's best-selling series abroad ever, fetching more than $2.5 million an episode, more than 50% above the international price tag for The Sopranos, the paper said.

"We have significantly accelerated our international thrust over the past few years," HBO CEO Bill Nelson told the Journal. "We have broken through at a much, much higher level than in the past, and have found that our programming not only crosses geographical boundaries but cultural ones as well."

While the network's number of paying U.S. subscribers has remained virtually flat at 40 million, its international users have increased to more than 42 million this year from about 28 million in 2007, the Journal said.

The paper highlighted that Thrones lies at the intersection of several strategic focus areas for HBO, including international growth, a renewed focus on originals and technological advances.

For example, it will be the first show that will see HBO make available some episodes via burgeoning streaming video service HBO Go before they are televised. Early next month, the service, designed to strengthen the bond that subscribers have with HBO, will be available on the iPad and Android devices.

"The value of video streaming has become so important to the customer that we've realized it's a vital part of the subscription service," said Eric Kessler, co-president of HBO.

Meanwhile, according to the Journal, HBO has in the past three years doubled spending on finding and developing original series, such as Boardwalk Empire, True Blood and Thrones, amid an industry-wide focus on originals.

"Original programming is the centerpiece of our brand and what our subscribers continue to cite as a main reason why they want HBO," co-president Richard Plepler told the Journal. "It helps drive viewership, international growth and the back end of our business."

HBO is shooting more pilots with big-name talent, including an Aaron Sorkin project about the cable news business and Veep, a political comedy with Julia Louis-Dreyfus that is set in the vice president's office.

Agent Ari Emanuel, who represents Sorkin, told the Journal that his clients are gravitating toward HBO in a world of an expanding number of outlets and distribution platforms due to its brand. "In a world with infinite distribution, brand recognition becomes so important," he said. "Besides [Walt Disney Co.], HBO is one of the few places that has it."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 15, 2011, 03:47:32 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.

Who The Fuck Are You? (tm)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 15, 2011, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2011, 03:47:32 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.

Who The Fuck Are You? (tm)

Respect your elders. :mad:

That is Emperor Gupta.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mosschops on April 15, 2011, 04:48:29 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.

To be fair its by far the worst in the series, the second book is probably the best though. It does get a bit messy after that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 15, 2011, 05:20:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2011, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2011, 03:47:32 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.

Who The Fuck Are You? (tm)

Respect your elders. :mad:

That is Emperor Gupta.

Whoa, the glorious emperor made it here?
I thought he was still in Paradox forums sucking dick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 15, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 15, 2011, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2011, 03:47:32 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.

Who The Fuck Are You? (tm)

Respect your elders. :mad:

That is Emperor Gupta.

Mola Ram returns!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.
Agree.  I felt the same way about Wizards' First Rule (or something like that), which also spawned many sequels in spite of being just the exact Star Wars story only without space ships.

I understand perfectly why modern fantasy is so disdained.  It sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 06:35:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 15, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
Mola Ram returns!
Where is Agelastus?  He is the other Brit with Wit, and we need him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 06:39:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 06:35:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 15, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
Mola Ram returns!
Where is Agelastus?  He is the other Brit with Wit, and we need him.

British Tim with the lego butt plug?  I wouldn't call that wit..
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 06:43:17 PM
I would like to read a fantasy novel again, but I have two criteria:

It be fairly well written

If it be part of a series it already is finished.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 06:43:17 PM
I would like to read a fantasy novel again, but I have two criteria:

It be fairly well written

If it be part of a series it already is finished.
The Black Company Ignore anything past the first three.  they are complete.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 06:51:06 PM
I tried to the Black Company.  I think I read the first book, but it just didn't jell with me.  It did have an interesting setting though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 16, 2011, 06:53:56 PM
I guess I'll skip recommending Cook's Dread Empire series then.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 16, 2011, 07:06:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 06:43:17 PM
I would like to read a fantasy novel again, but I have two criteria:

It be fairly well written

If it be part of a series it already is finished.

Codex Alera series, by Jim Butcher, is finished and has ~5 or 6 books.
By the same author of The Dresden Files, which is an awesome urban fantasy series.  Dresden Files isn't finished yet, but he's regularly put out one book a year with it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 16, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 16, 2011, 07:06:40 PMBy the same author of The Dresden Files, which is an awesome urban fantasy series.  Dresden Files isn't finished yet, but he's regularly put out one book a year with it.

Apparently the RPG is all the rave with the young people these days, too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 16, 2011, 07:19:48 PM
China Miéville's books are pretty good. They're self contained stories set in the same world so no waiting for a series to finish.

I think I need to read more fantasy really. When I was younger I was Forgotten Realms obsessed but thats pretty much all I've read beyond Tolkein, I've mostly been a sci-fi guy. Never really realised there was a lot of good fantasy until quite recently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 08:07:53 PM
I did enjoy the light Fantasy of David Eddings.  At least to a certain point.  That was a guy who knew how to write one book over and over again.  I admit I like the more epic fantasy of Tolkien to the power fantasies of Moorcock and Leiber.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 16, 2011, 09:04:37 PM
Alternate history works better for me than fantasy.
These are the last 3 I got into:
- The Change by S. M. Stirling
- Destroyermen by Taylor Anderson
- The Ring of Fire by Eric Flint

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on April 16, 2011, 11:07:10 PM
I tried reading both Sanderson and Erickson. Both sucked. Good fantasy is almost impossible to find.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 16, 2011, 11:22:44 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 16, 2011, 09:04:37 PM
Alternate history works better for me than fantasy.
These are the last 3 I got into:
- The Change by S. M. Stirling
- Destroyermen by Taylor Anderson
- The Ring of Fire by Eric Flint

You might be interested in Ralph Peters' The War After Armageddon  (http://www.amazon.com/War-After-Armageddon-Ralph-Peters/dp/0765363402/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303014039&sr=8-1). Haven't read it yet, but picked it up because I liked his book "Red Army" a lot, about a NATO vs. WP war, written from the Soviet point of view.

QuoteMilitary strategist Peters applies the predictions of his nonfiction Wars of Blood and Faith to this outstanding cautionary tale of a near-future war set in the Middle East. Lt. Gen. Gary Flintlock Harris commands troops hitting the beaches of what was once Israel before it was nuked into total destruction. Muslim extremists have exploded dirty bombs in Las Vegas, Los Angeles and most of the major European cities in an attempt to bring about the Great Jihad. America reacts by voting in a radical Christian government and reorganizing the National Guard as the Military Order of the Brothers in Christ (MOBIC). The fighting most resembles that of WWII as electronic jamming equipment cancels out the high-tech weaponry of each side, reducing the level of combat to suicide attacks and bayonet charges. Compelling characters, thrilling small-unit battle scenes and the terrifying possibility that it could all come true make this a must read.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on April 16, 2011, 11:33:07 PM
I thought The War After Armageddon was fun.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 12:13:46 AM
Ralph Peters is something of a kook, if I recall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 17, 2011, 01:28:44 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.
Agree.  I felt the same way about Wizards' First Rule (or something like that), which also spawned many sequels in spite of being just the exact Star Wars story only without space ships.

I understand perfectly why modern fantasy is so disdained.  It sucks.

I guess after you've lived long enough, and heard every variation of every story, there's not much room for a sense of wonder any more.

For some reason, however, I'm willing to wager you ragged on Homer for his lack of creativity aswell.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2011, 01:50:31 AM
Shut up, Slargos. Virtually everyone said the books you tried to derail this thread with are a piece of shit. So let it go and let's get back to jacking off about gay sex in HBO's GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 17, 2011, 03:11:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2011, 01:50:31 AM
Shut up, Slargos. Virtually everyone said the books you tried to derail this thread with are a piece of shit. So let it go and let's get back to jacking off about gay sex in HBO's GoT.

There will be no jacking off to gay sex on my watch!  :mad:

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 17, 2011, 04:41:02 AM
Wizard's First Rule read like it was written by an unimaginative third grader.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on April 17, 2011, 06:24:55 AM
Patrick Rothfuss is good.
Joe Abercrombie, as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 17, 2011, 09:57:27 AM
I have three different first books on my shelf right now I bought on recommendation from varioues Languish posters.

Gene Wolfs Shadow & Claw
Glen Cooks Black Company
Steven Eriksons Gardens of the Moon

I think I actually read all of Gardens of the Moon. It was...well...terrible. It went all over the place, had no discenible point to it, and I suspect this was intentional - the authors rather infantile way of saying "Hey, check me out! Look how original and cutting edge I am! I will not be limited by the conventions of your conventional ways of telling conventional stories!"

The Black Company I remember reading and just thinking "Meh." and never had any desire to find the next book.

Only Shadow and Claw intrigues me - I could NOT get into the book, yet I feel like I am missing something as a result. I think there is a pretty good story in there, so maybe I will try it again.

Sadly, the one fantasy that I read as a result of hearing about it here that I actually liked came from a recommendation from Tim. :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 17, 2011, 11:10:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 12:13:46 AM
Ralph Peters is something of a kook, if I recall.

What's a kook?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 17, 2011, 11:12:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 12:13:46 AM
Ralph Peters is something of a kook, if I recall.

But an entertaining one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 17, 2011, 11:17:37 AM
Wow, look at what this guy Ralph Peters came up with!:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F7%2F7c%2FRalph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg&hash=dd900031fd0e88548a57abf4054f0b29ccf3b68b)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2011, 11:18:46 AM
The map sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zeus on April 17, 2011, 11:58:35 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 17, 2011, 09:57:27 AM
I have three different first books on my shelf right now I bought on recommendation from varioues Languish posters.

Gene Wolfs Shadow & Claw
Glen Cooks Black Company
Steven Eriksons Gardens of the Moon

I think I actually read all of Gardens of the Moon. It was...well...terrible. It went all over the place, had no discenible point to it, and I suspect this was intentional - the authors rather infantile way of saying "Hey, check me out! Look how original and cutting edge I am! I will not be limited by the conventions of your conventional ways of telling conventional stories!"

The Black Company I remember reading and just thinking "Meh." and never had any desire to find the next book.

Only Shadow and Claw intrigues me - I could NOT get into the book, yet I feel like I am missing something as a result. I think there is a pretty good story in there, so maybe I will try it again.

Sadly, the one fantasy that I read as a result of hearing about it here that I actually liked came from a recommendation from Tim. :cry:

Awesome series. Loved the first three books and never found the rest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 17, 2011, 01:06:41 PM
Quote from: Zeus on April 17, 2011, 11:58:35 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 17, 2011, 09:57:27 AM
I have three different first books on my shelf right now I bought on recommendation from varioues Languish posters.

Gene Wolfs Shadow & Claw
Glen Cooks Black Company
Steven Eriksons Gardens of the Moon

I think I actually read all of Gardens of the Moon. It was...well...terrible. It went all over the place, had no discenible point to it, and I suspect this was intentional - the authors rather infantile way of saying "Hey, check me out! Look how original and cutting edge I am! I will not be limited by the conventions of your conventional ways of telling conventional stories!"

The Black Company I remember reading and just thinking "Meh." and never had any desire to find the next book.

Only Shadow and Claw intrigues me - I could NOT get into the book, yet I feel like I am missing something as a result. I think there is a pretty good story in there, so maybe I will try it again.

Sadly, the one fantasy that I read as a result of hearing about it here that I actually liked came from a recommendation from Tim. :cry:

Awesome series. Loved the first three books and never found the rest.

They are all in omnibus versions by Tor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zeus on April 17, 2011, 01:10:34 PM
I meant I found the first volume of the first three.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 17, 2011, 01:15:43 PM
I'm sorta dreading the new ones Cook is writing. He killed off everybody interesting or stuck them on the glittering plain.

I just don't see where he can go with it. Unless it is a book of nude sketches of Soulcatcher.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2011, 05:32:25 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 17, 2011, 09:57:27 AM


Sadly, the one fantasy that I read as a result of hearing about it here that I actually liked came from a recommendation from Tim. :cry:
Which one! :w00t:

I also couldn't get into Garden of the Moon, though I did like the Black Company. Haven't read the other one though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 06:20:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2011, 11:18:46 AM
The map sucks.

I'm a bit baffled as to why Yemen would need more territory.  They can't rule over the part they nominally control.  Same with Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 17, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
Raz, have you read the Amber series by Roger Zelazny?  If not, there's your series.  Short, well-written, and interesting.  I wouldn't bother with the second Amber series, which were more pot-boilerish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 06:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
Raz, have you read the Amber series by Roger Zelazny?  If not, there's your series.  Short, well-written, and interesting.  I wouldn't bother with the second Amber series, which were more pot-boilerish.

I'll pick it up then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 17, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
Raz, have you read the Amber series by Roger Zelazny?  If not, there's your series.  Short, well-written, and interesting.  I wouldn't bother with the second Amber series, which were more pot-boilerish.

I second both of these comments. I read them in an omnibus of all ten books, but the first five were vastly superior to the later ones. And it says something that they could fit all ten in one volume.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 17, 2011, 08:10:19 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 17, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
Raz, have you read the Amber series by Roger Zelazny?  If not, there's your series.  Short, well-written, and interesting.  I wouldn't bother with the second Amber series, which were more pot-boilerish.

I second both of these comments. I read them in an omnibus of all ten books, but the first five were vastly superior to the later ones. And it says something that they could fit all ten in one volume.

:yes:
It's a great series. I've reread the first 5 a few times.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 17, 2011, 08:20:13 PM
Anyone else watching the HBO show?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 17, 2011, 08:22:43 PM
I'll watch it when it shows up online.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 09:13:45 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 17, 2011, 08:20:13 PM
Anyone else watching the HBO show?

I did.  You see more tits then an hour on Cinemax.  Maybe that's why they bought the rights to it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:17:35 PM
it's pretty fantastic. it seems a casualty is feudalism's lower-tier :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: merithyn on April 17, 2011, 09:19:39 PM
Just saw it. Well done, but someone who hasn't read the books is going to be very, very confused, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2011, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:17:35 PM
it's pretty fantastic. it seems a casualty is feudalism's lower-tier :hmm:

Come again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 17, 2011, 09:29:29 PM
Pretty good. Someone said "Eh, I'll keep watching only for the puppies."

I laughed hysterically. But then I also laughed hysterically at the end of the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:31:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2011, 09:24:35 PMCome again?

what i meant by that, and i might not have worded that correctly, was that all those lords and barons, the men who hold land and have power in their local areas because they were loyal to the next tier. ned's was shown a few times in discussion with robert, but the lower levels weren't at all
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 17, 2011, 09:35:34 PM
Quote from: merithyn on April 17, 2011, 09:19:39 PM
Just saw it. Well done, but someone who hasn't read the books is going to be very, very confused, I think.

I'll let you know when I watch it in the next few days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2011, 09:38:35 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:31:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2011, 09:24:35 PMCome again?

what i meant by that, and i might not have worded that correctly, was that all those lords and barons, the men who hold land and have power in their local areas because they were loyal to the next tier. ned's was shown a few times in discussion with robert, but the lower levels weren't at all

So let me get this straight: you didn't think the peasant mudfarmers got enough screen time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 09:47:07 PM
I suppose a fantasy novel from perspective of a serf who sees the heroes once as they go off, and one more time when he is in the crowd cheering the heroes triumphant return would not make a very interesting story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 17, 2011, 11:28:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 09:47:07 PM
I suppose a fantasy novel from perspective of a serf who sees the heroes once as they go off, and one more time when he is in the crowd cheering the heroes triumphant return would not make a very interesting story.


Gutlaf Moolman sighed as he picked up the morning paper, noting with disinterest how the headlines were again about that boorish "hero" fighting another dragon. His back twinged a bit, as had been its wont lately, when he straightened up again. All those years working at the mud farm had certainly taken their toll on his body. A shriek from behind him sent him careening into a semblance of what might to someone very inexperienced look like a fighting stance, and he peered nervously into the antechamber of the small hovel. Ismelda, his teenage daughter, was stomping off in another hormone fueled rage about something that was assuredly of little importance to anyone who is not a teenage girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2011, 11:47:08 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 17, 2011, 09:29:29 PM
Pretty good. Someone said "Eh, I'll keep watching only for the puppies."

I laughed hysterically. But then I also laughed hysterically at the end of the episode.
That is funny!  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 18, 2011, 01:07:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?

Oh yeah.
Lots of nice tits, too.
And a shirtless scene with Robb, Theon and Jon for you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:09:53 AM
Who gets raped? Or do you mean Daenerys?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?
Isn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?
Isn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?

Ok but this is retarded. Incest (unless you are a Targaeryn) or throwing a child off out of a window is indeed shocking, both by modern and Westeros standards. But if you apply modern standards to sexual initiation, half of real world medieval marriages were "child rape". You could be just as well shocked by the "cruel and unusual" punishment of beheading.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 01:28:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?
Isn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?

Ok but this is retarded. Incest (unless you are a Targaeryn) or throwing a child off out of a window is indeed shocking, both by modern and Westeros standards. But if you apply modern standards to sexual initiation, half of real world medieval marriages were "child rape". You could be just as well shocked by the "cruel and unusual" punishment of beheading.  :rolleyes:

In the West, we are sufficiently removed from the Dark Ages to be shocked by these things. A concept you stone carving Poles will not understand.

Of course, there's not a lot you folks DO understand, so I guess there's no real need for such repetition. Let a dead Winged Hussar lie, so to speak.

Even though, I will admit, the thought of kicking dead polacks is somewhat amusing.

But I digress.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:30:05 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 01:28:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?
Isn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?

Ok but this is retarded. Incest (unless you are a Targaeryn) or throwing a child off out of a window is indeed shocking, both by modern and Westeros standards. But if you apply modern standards to sexual initiation, half of real world medieval marriages were "child rape". You could be just as well shocked by the "cruel and unusual" punishment of beheading.  :rolleyes:

In the West, we are sufficiently removed from the Dark Ages to be shocked by these things. A concept you stone carving Poles will not understand.

Of course, there's not a lot you folks DO understand, so I guess there's no real need for such repetition. Let a dead Winged Hussar lie, so to speak.

Even though, I will admit, the thought of kicking dead polacks is somewhat amusing.

But I digress.

Didn't get half of these references. Or were you just rambling? :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 01:32:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?
Isn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?

Ok but this is retarded. Incest (unless you are a Targaeryn) or throwing a child off out of a window is indeed shocking, both by modern and Westeros standards. But if you apply modern standards to sexual initiation, half of real world medieval marriages were "child rape". You could be just as well shocked by the "cruel and unusual" punishment of beheading.  :rolleyes:
The average person watching HBO probably doesn't know enough about history to know this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 03:20:01 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:31:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2011, 09:24:35 PMCome again?

what i meant by that, and i might not have worded that correctly, was that all those lords and barons, the men who hold land and have power in their local areas because they were loyal to the next tier. ned's was shown a few times in discussion with robert, but the lower levels weren't at all

Did you read the books? You'll have more than enough lesser nobles as the story goes on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 17, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
those i saw it with were more unnerved by the sudden rush of rough child rape + incest + implied death of a child :D

So they closed the episode with "things I do for love"? Sweet. I remember I was pretty unnerved when I read it first time too.

Btw, I have not read the books for a while - child rape?

IIRC, it was announced a good while ago that the first episode would go from the Prologue to that particular scene. Or was it the pilot?  :hmm:

On a different note, at the HBO site there's a nifty guide of the series for the more casual viewers. As with every fantasy source worth its stuff, it has a cool map.  :P

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/?cmpid=ABC794 (http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/?cmpid=ABC794)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2011, 03:44:03 AM
I was watching one of the Behind-The-Scenes previews, and it had an interview with George R.R. Martin.
I think the "R.R." stands for "Rail Road", because he looks like a reject from a model train convention.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 06:15:31 AM
IIRC I remember hearing the first episode ends with Bran's mishap.
Its on tonight. Can't wait.

QuoteIsn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?
Aye, all the kids have been aged up it seems. Robb and Theon are supposed to be like 16 but here they're played by 23 (or so) year olds, Arya IIRC is around 14 instead of...10 or so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 18, 2011, 06:20:19 AM
It's an American series, only Disney uses matching age actors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 06:26:10 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2011, 03:44:03 AM
I was watching one of the Behind-The-Scenes previews, and it had an interview with George R.R. Martin.
I think the "R.R." stands for "Rail Road", because he looks like a reject from a model train convention.
"Railroad" was, indeed, his nickname at the cons back before he became a big name.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 06:42:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 18, 2011, 06:20:19 AM
It's an American series, only Disney uses matching age actors.

It's not just that - the characters are actually older than in the books (e.g. Brandon is 10 instead of 6, Daenerys is 16 instead of 13 etc.). I think this is a good choice - some of the characters just were too young, period (even though it probably makes sense in the context of the era).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 06:42:43 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 06:26:10 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2011, 03:44:03 AM
I was watching one of the Behind-The-Scenes previews, and it had an interview with George R.R. Martin.
I think the "R.R." stands for "Rail Road", because he looks like a reject from a model train convention.
"Railroad" was, indeed, his nickname at the cons back before he became a big name.

Was it because he looks like a steam engine? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 07:13:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 06:42:43 AM
Was it because he looks like a steam engine? :P
:lol:  Actually, I think it was because there was another George Martin already known to SF fans.

All of this is from second-hand memory; i never went to SF Conventions, but talked to those who did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 18, 2011, 07:15:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 06:42:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 18, 2011, 06:20:19 AM
It's an American series, only Disney uses matching age actors.

It's not just that - the characters are actually older than in the books (e.g. Brandon is 10 instead of 6, Daenerys is 16 instead of 13 etc.). I think this is a good choice - some of the characters just were too young, period (even though it probably makes sense in the context of the era).

Oh. I guess I'll see. I have no intentions of reading the books before RR dies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 08:38:51 AM
Overall it was good, but was anyone else annoyed at the revisions to Danaerys's relationship to the Khal?

They also simplified Cate a bit, which I didn't like.

Also, I laughed at the end of the episode. Am I a bad man?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 08:50:19 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 08:38:51 AM
Also, I laughed at the end of the episode. Am I a bad man?

No you are a: Languishite. :P

No comment on Dany-Drogo yet.  I will see how it develops.  I was a bit surprised how they changed Catelyn but I think it works better.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 08:52:33 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 18, 2011, 06:15:31 AM
QuoteIsn't Daenerys 12-13 in the books. How old is she supposed to be in the shows? 15-16?
Aye, all the kids have been aged up it seems. Robb and Theon are supposed to be like 16 but here they're played by 23 (or so) year olds, Arya IIRC is around 14 instead of...10 or so.

Screw the actors. How old are the characters?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 06:42:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 18, 2011, 06:20:19 AM
It's an American series, only Disney uses matching age actors.

It's not just that - the characters are actually older than in the books (e.g. Brandon is 10 instead of 6, Daenerys is 16 instead of 13 etc.). I think this is a good choice - some of the characters just were too young, period (even though it probably makes sense in the context of the era).

:bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:

HBO = fial
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 08:38:51 AM
Overall it was good, but was anyone else annoyed at the revisions to Danaerys's relationship to the Khal?

They also simplified Cate a bit, which I didn't like.

Also, I laughed at the end of the episode. Am I a bad man?

Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 09:00:47 AM
They're black.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 18, 2011, 09:04:29 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 17, 2011, 06:20:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2011, 11:18:46 AM
The map sucks.

I'm a bit baffled as to why Yemen would need more territory.  They can't rule over the part they nominally control.  Same with Afghanistan.

I think the point is to put all the rotten eggs in one basket.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 09:06:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 06:42:10 AM
It's not just that - the characters are actually older than in the books (e.g. Brandon is 10 instead of 6, Daenerys is 16 instead of 13 etc.). I think this is a good choice - some of the characters just were too young, period (even though it probably makes sense in the context of the era).
The "era" is 100% imaginary!  Everything makes sense in an imaginary era! :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 09:11:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

Daytime soaps manage to spell out thoughts. HBO can't?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 09:17:44 AM
Quote from: Faeeliopic=4756.msg244067#msg244067 date=1303133931
Overall it was good, but was anyone else annoyed at the revisions to Danaerys's relationship to the Khal?

I don't think it was really changed  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:18:49 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 09:11:35 AM
Daytime soaps manage to spell out thoughts. HBO can't?

HBO has amnesia thanks to HBO's evil twin brother and forgot how :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 09:19:36 AM
Oh, and LORAS IS GAY??+++ WTF not in the books
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 09:20:26 AM
Yeah, what was so changed about Daeny and Drogo? I mean, their "relationship" so far (as in the book) amounts to her getting married off to him and being terrified at the prospect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 09:20:51 AM
The Hound looks like a chump though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 09:19:36 AM
Oh, and LORAS IS GAY??+++ WTF not in the books

No, I think you are mistaken. It's neither in the books nor in the feature film.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 09:29:44 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 08:38:51 AM
Overall it was good, but was anyone else annoyed at the revisions to Danaerys's relationship to the Khal?

They also simplified Cate a bit, which I didn't like.

Also, I laughed at the end of the episode. Am I a bad man?

Yes. There is nothing funny about that scene.

Think of the child, you sick fuck.

Although arguably, the ass fucking was agreeable to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:35:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 09:00:47 AM
They're black.

Winter is comin', fo' shizzle
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 11:09:50 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 09:29:44 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 08:38:51 AM
Overall it was good, but was anyone else annoyed at the revisions to Danaerys's relationship to the Khal?

They also simplified Cate a bit, which I didn't like.

Also, I laughed at the end of the episode. Am I a bad man?

Yes. There is nothing funny about that scene.

Think of the child, you sick fuck.

Although arguably, the ass fucking was agreeable to me.

Yeah. In the book I was so angry at the scene and hated Jaime so much, I had to put down the books. But then Jaime grew to be one of my favourite characters.  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 11:11:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

Unless you have read the books fairly recently, I hate people like you - the ones who remember all these little details. I remember the general feel of the books - have no idea what Catelyn's motivations were (beyond the pretty simple ones).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 11:11:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

Unless you have read the books fairly recently, I hate people like you - the ones who remember all these little details. I remember the general feel of the books - have no idea what Catelyn's motivations were (beyond the pretty simple ones).

I would think that people who remember little details would be useful in your line of work, that is, if you really are a lawyer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 11:20:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 11:11:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

Unless you have read the books fairly recently, I hate people like you - the ones who remember all these little details. I remember the general feel of the books - have no idea what Catelyn's motivations were (beyond the pretty simple ones).

I would think that people who remember little details would be useful in your line of work, that is, if you really are a lawyer.

Not really. You need to know how to do research, not learn things by heart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 11:30:25 AM
I'll wait till a real lawyer, shows up before I'll make a judgment on that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 18, 2011, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 11:30:25 AM
I'll wait till a real lawyer, shows up before I'll make a judgment on that.

Yep, at a client meeting nothing screams "I don't know what I'm talking about" like "I'll have to get back to you on that one".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 18, 2011, 11:48:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

I hope Cat's less of whiny bitch in the TV show. Her POVs were always the worst until Brienne came along aand took a big dump on the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 11:49:35 AM
Gups hates strong women. Film at 11.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 11:53:19 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 18, 2011, 11:48:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

I hope Cat's less of whiny bitch in the TV show. Her POVs were always the worst until Brienne came along aand took a big dump on the series.

I didn't mind Catelyn, but dear God Brienne was painful. Especially in the last book. She as mildly interesting when she was the insight into Jaime at least. Once she stomped off on her own, I really could not fucking care less. Hell, she was off looking for Sansa, and since we all KNOW where Sansa is, and we know she isn't vaguely close to finding her...what exactly was the fucking point?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 11:55:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 11:53:19 AM
I didn't mind Catelyn, but dear God Brienne was painful. Especially in the last book. She as mildly interesting when she was the insight into Jaime at least. Once she stomped off on her own, I really could not fucking care less. Hell, she was off looking for Sansa, and since we all KNOW where Sansa is, and we know she isn't vaguely close to finding her...what exactly was the fucking point?

I started to like her POV at the end of AFFC but I do not remember it very well.  I just started re-reading it though so I will see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 18, 2011, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 11:55:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 11:53:19 AM
I didn't mind Catelyn, but dear God Brienne was painful. Especially in the last book. She as mildly interesting when she was the insight into Jaime at least. Once she stomped off on her own, I really could not fucking care less. Hell, she was off looking for Sansa, and since we all KNOW where Sansa is, and we know she isn't vaguely close to finding her...what exactly was the fucking point?

I started to like her POV at the end of AFFC but I do not remember it very well.  I just started re-reading it though so I will see.

Same here.
But her POV chapters could definitely have been cut down a lot, or at least could have gotten more direction. Anything to prevent AFFC from becoming a bunch of "nothing happens". Maybe Brienne could have actually picked up Sansa's trail and been following her & Littlefinger, or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 12:22:03 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 18, 2011, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 11:30:25 AM
I'll wait till a real lawyer, shows up before I'll make a judgment on that.

Yep, at a client meeting nothing screams "I don't know what I'm talking about" like "I'll have to get back to you on that one".

Fuck off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 12:23:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 11:53:19 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 18, 2011, 11:48:20 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
Without going too much into the details, how did they change Daenerys and Catelyn?

Hard to explain.  Cat was against Ned going for one but I think it is the best way to go since you cannot see her thoughts in a TV series.

I hope Cat's less of whiny bitch in the TV show. Her POVs were always the worst until Brienne came along aand took a big dump on the series.

I didn't mind Catelyn, but dear God Brienne was painful. Especially in the last book. She as mildly interesting when she was the insight into Jaime at least. Once she stomped off on her own, I really could not fucking care less. Hell, she was off looking for Sansa, and since we all KNOW where Sansa is, and we know she isn't vaguely close to finding her...what exactly was the fucking point?

My least favourite was Sansa. It was all whine whine whine omg Jeoffrey is so handsome whine whine whine swoon. Having a typical teenage girl as a narrator = bad idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 09:20:26 AM
Yeah, what was so changed about Daeny and Drogo? I mean, their "relationship" so far (as in the book) amounts to her getting married off to him and being terrified at the prospect.

The scene in the book ends with her falling in love with him a bit, because he was a gentle and compassionate lover. But I can see why that is not what HBO wants to go for.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 12:23:29 PM
My least favourite was Sansa. It was all whine whine whine omg Jeoffrey is so handsome whine whine whine swoon. Having a typical teenage girl as a narrator = bad idea.

Yeah she had a crush on Joff for most of the first book but that was what made her interesting.  She was a young idealist who got smacked by the real world and how she deals with it.  I certainly was there back in my early teens.

I love Sansa she is one of my favs but then I always love the 'everyman' (so to speak) stuck in extraordinary circumstances.  I especially love how she says 'Fuck you' so well while on the surface saying and doing all the right things.  I think she is really going to surpise people at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 12:31:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 12:23:29 PM
My least favourite was Sansa. It was all whine whine whine omg Jeoffrey is so handsome whine whine whine swoon. Having a typical teenage girl as a narrator = bad idea.
:lmfao:

Irony:  not just the opposite of wrinkly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 12:32:18 PM
I disliked Sansa in Kings Landing too. Boring, nought ever happened.
She was quite good once she got to the Vale though, could be good in the future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 18, 2011, 12:35:40 PM
I disliked Bran the most. Sansa was tolerable and later became interesting, but Bran was either strange or annoying. It looks like there will be some very good payoff with Bran eventually, but it might not be for a couple more decades.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 12:23:29 PM
My least favourite was Sansa. It was all whine whine whine omg Jeoffrey is so handsome whine whine whine swoon. Having a typical teenage girl as a narrator = bad idea.

Yeah she had a crush on Joff for most of the first book but that was what made her interesting.  She was a young idealist who got smacked by the real world and how she deals with it.  I certainly was there back in my early teens.

I love Sansa she is one of my favs but then I always love the 'everyman' (so to speak) stuck in extraordinary circumstances.  I especially love how she says 'Fuck you' so well while on the surface saying and doing all the right things.  I think she is really going to surpise people at the end.

Concur. Her POVs certainly weren't the most exciting initially, but the whole storyline is very interesting and I really like the way it's going with the Hound. Was his death confirmed or not? I forget.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 12:39:41 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 09:20:26 AM
Yeah, what was so changed about Daeny and Drogo? I mean, their "relationship" so far (as in the book) amounts to her getting married off to him and being terrified at the prospect.

The scene in the book ends with her falling in love with him a bit, because he was a gentle and compassionate lover. But I can see why that is not what HBO wants to go for.



The show ended at the point of their marriage. At that point in the book, she still had no idea what to make of Drogo beyond "Holy shit he is fucking huge and I am scared!".

We don't know where the show is going to go with that relationship, but so far it has not changed at all, other than being a bit truncated (obviously) due to it being a one hour episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:40:15 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 18, 2011, 12:35:40 PM
I disliked Bran the most. Sansa was tolerable and later became interesting, but Bran was either strange or annoying. It looks like there will be some very good payoff with Bran eventually, but it might not be for a couple more decades.

I know you mean in-universe, but sadly it might take that long in real time as well, if he [GRRM] lives that long.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 12:41:22 PM
I liked Bran, most likable character IMO.

Martin cutting the five year gap- it will work out well for some characters, like Sansa, but for others like Bran and Arya things are just gonna be messed up and have to go waaay too fast or just abandoned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Concur. Her POVs certainly weren't the most exciting initially, but the whole storyline is very interesting and I really like the way it's going with the Hound. Was his death confirmed or not? I forget.

Well sort of.  Brienne was told dead but some think he meant in a spiritual sense.  I think he is still alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:48:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Concur. Her POVs certainly weren't the most exciting initially, but the whole storyline is very interesting and I really like the way it's going with the Hound. Was his death confirmed or not? I forget.

Well sort of.  Brienne was told dead but some think he meant in a spiritual sense.  I think he is still alive.

That's my hazy recollection. The Hound is dead, but Clegane is very much alive.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 12:54:18 PM
I don't remember Rickon ever really making an appearance in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 18, 2011, 12:55:36 PM
Clegane will probably end up grandmaster of the holy order of the sword or whatever it's called.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Was his death confirmed or not?
Yes, which rather surprised me.  He was a pretty useful/interesting character to kill off for no apparent reason other than to kill off a character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 12:54:18 PM
I don't remember Rickon ever really making an appearance in the show.

He was the little kid laughing at Bran at the very beginning.  I think he probably appeared in the scene when Robert and his entourage ride in (by the way...I was a little baffled there were no Baratheon banners but only Lannister ones) but I was not looking for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Was his death confirmed or not?
Yes, which rather surprised me.  He was a pretty useful/interesting character to kill off for no apparent reason other than to kill off a character.

Wasn't it the case that a character is TOLD he's dead, we're not literally shown the body. I thought a lot of the language surrounding his "death" was suspiciously hazy. Of course, it could be a red herring to keep the reader's hopes up.

If he IS dead, it would of course fit the GRRM MO of murdering characters who are actually interesting to read about. At this rate Snow will be dead within a few hundred pages.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: bogh on April 18, 2011, 01:03:12 PM
His death was not really confirmed, though. Check the geek sphere...I am pretty sure he'll return. Too cool a character to kill off.

In very related news I am going to the red carpet premiere of the show here in Denmark. Nicolaj Coster Waldau (Jaime) will be introducing it. Anything I should ask him during the subsequent cocktail party?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Was his death confirmed or not?
Yes, which rather surprised me.  He was a pretty useful/interesting character to kill off for no apparent reason other than to kill off a character.

I don't think he's really dead.  And I agree he was one of the most interesting characters of the novels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: bogh on April 18, 2011, 01:03:12 PM
His death was not really confirmed, though. Check the geek sphere...I am pretty sure he'll return. Too cool a character to kill off.

In very related news I am going to the red carpet premiere of the show here in Denmark. Nicolaj Coster Waldau (Jaime) will be introducing it. Anything I should ask him during the subsequent cocktail party?

Ask him if you can take a picture of his feet for Martinus.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: bogh on April 18, 2011, 01:04:36 PM
No.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 01:06:50 PM
Quote from: bogh on April 18, 2011, 01:04:36 PM
No.

:D

At least take a picture with him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 01:14:12 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 01:02:35 PM
Wasn't it the case that a character is TOLD he's dead, we're not literally shown the body. I thought a lot of the language surrounding his "death" was suspiciously hazy.
I remember thinking exactly this, but then having another character get told that the body had been found (though, as noted before, dead doesn't mean dead for good in this series) and something - the helmet maybe? - shown to that character.

My memory isn't 100% reliable, but I do remember thinking "well, that eliminates the 'he got better' possibility, since someone has found the body." 

I grant that people in the weeniesphere may make arguments that it was all just a misunderstanding, and concede that they could be right.  martin certainly doesn't demonstrate the literary self-discupline of one who would say "damn, I wished I hadn't killed that character, but bringing characters back to life would be wayyyy too silly."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 18, 2011, 01:18:49 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 17, 2011, 09:38:35 PMSo let me get this straight: you didn't think the peasant mudfarmers got enough screen time.

:D

no, i had ck in mind when i said "lowest tier," so i meant the power group below dukes. in the pilot at least we see robert (king) and those who answer directly to him (dukes) but not the lower level nobility

@larch: yes, i've read the books. it's possible they could show it later on, but if they failed to demonstrate it with the stark house (during the feast) they may have decided to simplify it instead

@berkut: i think faelin refers to the "no" -- "yes" drogo-daenerys exchange at the very end before the consummation. it wasn't quite the all-out rape that we saw

@valmy: the hound is alive, he's a grave digger at some monastery these days
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 01:25:43 PM
I don't think the minor houses played much of a role in the first 50 pages of the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:30:58 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 18, 2011, 01:18:49 PM

@berkut: i think faelin refers to the "no" -- "yes" drogo-daenerys exchange at the very end before the consummation. it wasn't quite the all-out rape that we saw


Ahh, I saw that as more of a poor job in putting the scene together to portray the message (maybe even just a matter of time) than any overt attempt to change the story itself.

They kind of blew it by not really going into a little more about Daenyrs response to her bride gift of the mare. In the book it relaxed her and was the first (albeit subtle) indicator to both the readers and the Dothraki that she was more than just a idiot soft girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 01:33:32 PM
QuoteI remember thinking exactly this, but then having another character get told that the body had been found (though, as noted before, dead doesn't mean dead for good in this series) and something - the helmet maybe? - shown to that character.

My memory isn't 100% reliable, but I do remember thinking "well, that eliminates the 'he got better' possibility, since someone has found the body."

I grant that people in the weeniesphere may make arguments that it was all just a misunderstanding, and concede that they could be right.  martin certainly doesn't demonstrate the literary self-discupline of one who would say "damn, I wished I hadn't killed that character, but bringing characters back to life would be wayyyy too silly."
I'm sure I remember someone (the head priest on that island of silent priests?) saying they buried him or at least saw the grave or somesuch.
It looks like he might be alive for a while due to reports of the hound leading a group that pillaged a town but then this hound is revealled to be one of those 3 nasty guys from Arya's time with the nights watch recruiter, he simply nicked the helmet from the grave.

Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 01:25:43 PM
I don't think the minor houses played much of a role in the first 50 pages of the book.
I can't really remember them showing up until the war kicks off and Robb calls his banners. Excepting the Cleganes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 18, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
they were present. it's speculation at this point, but i wouldn't be surprised if they did condense it down. the world is naturally far shallower than in the books

@berkut:  :yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 01:35:48 PM
I was a bit surprised they didn't dwell a little bit more on the symbolism of the Stag and the Wolf scene, if I recall they saw it as an omen (and it was essentially the prophecy that was completed at the end of the book).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 18, 2011, 01:37:08 PM
I thought Brienne had found Clegane in that monastery/retreat place she visited. Although it wasn't confirmed it was him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 01:37:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 01:35:48 PM
I was a bit surprised they didn't dwell a little bit more on the symbolism of the Stag and the Wolf scene, if I recall they saw it as an omen (and it was essentially the prophecy that was completed at the end of the book).
I think it was meant to stand out as an omen yeah...but it turned out to be a red herring, the stags weren't the problem, it was of course the lions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 01:43:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 12:54:18 PM
I don't remember Rickon ever really making an appearance in the show.

So it's exactly like in the books then?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 18, 2011, 01:45:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.

Regular wolves are pretty fucking big.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 18, 2011, 01:50:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.

That seemed about right to me. They're supposed to be huge.
The pups looked odd to me, probably just because they're cute puppies but also so big.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:51:15 PM
Viserys kind of sucked. He came across as petulant the way you expect, but there wasn't anything else to him - you certainly never got any feel for his being driven or obsessed. Just kind of a bitch. And creepy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 01:56:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.

I think actual dire wolves were the size of small ponies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 18, 2011, 01:56:37 PM
The Hound is as dead as anyone ever gets in the Martinverse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 18, 2011, 02:15:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:51:15 PM
Viserys kind of sucked. He came across as petulant the way you expect, but there wasn't anything else to him - you certainly never got any feel for his being driven or obsessed. Just kind of a bitch. And creepy.
Yeah, he did come across like that a bit. He was ok though; reminded me of how controlling and nasty he was to his sister. I had forgotten some of that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 18, 2011, 02:23:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 12:31:04 PM

Yeah she had a crush on Joff for most of the first book but that was what made her interesting.  She was a young idealist who got smacked by the real world and how she deals with it.  I certainly was there back in my early teens.

I love Sansa she is one of my favs but then I always love the 'everyman' (so to speak) stuck in extraordinary circumstances.  I especially love how she says 'Fuck you' so well while on the surface saying and doing all the right things.  I think she is really going to surpise people at the end.
In the book I liked Arya more than Sansa. But I got into how Sansa changed as reality hit her like a sledge hammer, and dismantled her idealistic world view of fine Princes and perfect Royalty. So I'm very interested to see how she progresses in the nextg book or two.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 18, 2011, 02:24:44 PM
Over all I liked the show. Looking forward to more of the series! Been a few years since I read the books, but I think I remember it pretty well, so the goings on and who is who makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 18, 2011, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:51:15 PM
Viserys kind of sucked. He came across as petulant the way you expect, but there wasn't anything else to him - you certainly never got any feel for his being driven or obsessed. Just kind of a bitch. And creepy.

Was he driven though? He sat around bitching and waiting for someone else to give him his kingdom, and his "actions" consisting of pimping his sister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:51:15 PM
Viserys kind of sucked. He came across as petulant the way you expect, but there wasn't anything else to him - you certainly never got any feel for his being driven or obsessed. Just kind of a bitch. And creepy.

I dunno. I thought he looked the perfect sociopath.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
I will say this: Most misgivings I had about the casting are swept away. They simply Work.

I maintain that Cersei simply isn't stunning enough, but it's a minor quibble.

Especially good is Joffrey. That little cunt gets on my nerves without even uttering a single word.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 03:57:36 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
I will say this: Most misgivings I had about the casting are swept away. They simply Work.

I maintain that Cersei simply isn't stunning enough, but it's a minor quibble.

Especially good is Joffrey. That little cunt gets on my nerves without even uttering a single word.

Agree on all points, except that in general I am not bothered by Cersei not being hot enough - I don't know that anyone in existence is hot enough to do Cersei justice as described in the books. And I would much rather they get a competent and good looking address than a model who cannot act at all. Her role is way too important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:01:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 03:57:36 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
I will say this: Most misgivings I had about the casting are swept away. They simply Work.

I maintain that Cersei simply isn't stunning enough, but it's a minor quibble.

Especially good is Joffrey. That little cunt gets on my nerves without even uttering a single word.

Agree on all points, except that in general I am not bothered by Cersei not being hot enough - I don't know that anyone in existence is hot enough to do Cersei justice as described in the books. And I would much rather they get a competent and good looking address than a model who cannot act at all. Her role is way too important.

A fair point, yeah.

Though I think someone like Hayden Panettiere or Ali Larter could actually be the ticket.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
FUCK.

THAT SHIT MOTHERFUCKING ROCKS.

I loved it.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 18, 2011, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
Especially good is Joffrey. That little cunt gets on my nerves without even uttering a single word.

Yeah and I think this will be rather important, since probably there won't be much time to elarobate on the level of his assholeness, like it was done in the books. That kid was a perfect choice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:22:53 PM
Martinus's verdict:

This shit rocks.

Lannisters: perfectly cast. Jaime is devil-may-care handsome asshole. Cersei is a cold good looking bitch. The imp is the imp.
Starks: greatly cast.
Robert Baratheon: fat, charismatic, well cast.
Targaeryns: great too. Viseris is a little bitch. Daenerys has too wide hips (wtf) but otherwise great.

Extra super plus: All the hot young Starks getting shaved, half-nekkid. :mmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 04:24:07 PM
Daenyrs was not as thin as I imagined her, but in a rather good way. :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 18, 2011, 04:24:25 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:01:27 PM
A fair point, yeah.

Though I think someone like Hayden Panettiere

She's too young and she looks like a (hot) peasant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8)

I must say that the opening credits are stunning and nerdgasmatic. I hope they're specific for every episode.  :mmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:25:12 PM
In short, this is HBO at its best. Great story (courtesy of GRRM) plus lots of gratuitous, graphic sexiness and violence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 04:25:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
FUCK.

THAT SHIT MOTHERFUCKING ROCKS.

Hehe that is pretty much word for word what I said when it ended.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 18, 2011, 04:26:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8)

I must say that the opening credits are stunning and nerdgasmatic. I hope they're specific for every episode.  :mmm:

I hear they are.  They show you all the key locals for the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:26:16 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8)

I must say that the opening credits are stunning and nerdgasmatic. I hope they're specific for every episode.  :mmm:

LOL no kidding. I've been listening this on loop since I finished watching the first episode about half an hour ago.  :blush:

I heard it's going to change each episode, focusing on the locales being featured at the time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:30:02 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 18, 2011, 04:24:25 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:01:27 PM
A fair point, yeah.

Though I think someone like Hayden Panettiere

She's too young and she looks like a (hot) peasant.

Peasant? Maybe.

Larter would work though, I think.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwallpapers.oneindia.in%2Fd%2F119495-2%2Fand-ali-larter03.JPG&hash=b86724f90d69066883beea8137ffc987d15a9d48)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:34:01 PM
She's got that je ne sais quois.  :hmm:

Smug, self-confident, "I could murder puppies and babies without losing any sleep".  :menace:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:34:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:51:15 PM
Viserys kind of sucked. He came across as petulant the way you expect, but there wasn't anything else to him - you certainly never got any feel for his being driven or obsessed. Just kind of a bitch. And creepy.

Frankly, that was my impression of him from the books - nothing but a creepy crazy bitch. In all honesty, they probably did not  have enough time to do enough exposure on him - the part about him having Danny be fucked by 40,000 Dothraki and their horses was supposed to convey the message, I guess.

Considering this was the "exposure" episode (read: "let's introduce all the 100 major characters") I think it went pretty well, and on top of that it has great promise for the rest of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 18, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
I just got the books and plan on knocking them back shortly.  I also read the two Hedge Knight Graphic novels as a semi-intro to the series.  Should I watch the first episode while reading the beginning of the book or wait till I've finished the whole first book before watching the show?  Also, as I was reading some intros to characters, a thought popped in my head:  Is Jon Snow actually Lyanna's son with either Robert or Rhaegar and that is what she made Ned promise?  To claim him as his own son and to promise to raise him?  Just curious if I totally misread the short character background or not about him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 04:35:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8)

I must say that the opening credits are stunning and nerdgasmatic. I hope they're specific for every episode.  :mmm:

I liked Rome and John Adams credits better. Looks a bit too steampunkish for Asoiaf  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 18, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
I just got the books and plan on knocking them back shortly.  I also read the two Hedge Knight Graphic novels as a semi-intro to the series.  Should I watch the first episode while reading the beginning of the book or wait till I've finished the whole first book before watching the show?  Also, as I was reading some intros to characters, a thought popped in my head:  Is Jon Snow actually Lyanna's son with either Robert or Rhaegar and that is what she made Ned promise?  To claim him as his own son and to promise to raise him?  Just curious if I totally misread the short character background or not about him.

:hmm:

Though if you got that from the bios, I think they are too damn revealing.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: bogh on April 18, 2011, 04:39:19 PM
On the Sandor Clegane question;

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Sandor_dead/

I think its a fairly convincing argument. In general I can't think of a major character killed without the reader being a direct witness through a POV character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 18, 2011, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 18, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
I just got the books and plan on knocking them back shortly.  I also read the two Hedge Knight Graphic novels as a semi-intro to the series.  Should I watch the first episode while reading the beginning of the book or wait till I've finished the whole first book before watching the show?  Also, as I was reading some intros to characters, a thought popped in my head:  Is Jon Snow actually Lyanna's son with either Robert or Rhaegar and that is what she made Ned promise?  To claim him as his own son and to promise to raise him?  Just curious if I totally misread the short character background or not about him.

:hmm:

Though if you got that from the bios, I think they are too damn revealing.  :hmm:
Yeah, I was browsing a bit and thought so myself, so I stopped after a few.  I suppose if it were true, it'd allow him to have a claim to the throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:41:27 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 18, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
I just got the books and plan on knocking them back shortly.  I also read the two Hedge Knight Graphic novels as a semi-intro to the series.  Should I watch the first episode while reading the beginning of the book or wait till I've finished the whole first book before watching the show?  Also, as I was reading some intros to characters, a thought popped in my head:  Is Jon Snow actually Lyanna's son with either Robert or Rhaegar and that is what she made Ned promise?  To claim him as his own son and to promise to raise him?  Just curious if I totally misread the short character background or not about him.

That's the popular theory (i.e. being a Rhaegar's son), and it also sheds some light on Lyanna being quite a willing "kidnapee". The plan is that he will marry Danny - Ice and Fire reunited - to save Westeros from the Others.

There is also a more obscure theory that Tyrion is a son of Aerys the Mad King (Tywin's wife being actually raped by him - that's why Tywin suddenly left King's Landing and later switched sides). This is much more tenuous, supported only by such stuff as Tyrion's apparent affinity with dragons, and him "standing tall as a King" and the like.

So, in the end, Jon, Danny and Tyrion will be the three heads of the dragon, as in the old days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 04:43:06 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 04:35:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 18, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8)

I must say that the opening credits are stunning and nerdgasmatic. I hope they're specific for every episode.  :mmm:

I liked Rome and John Adams credits better. Looks a bit too steampunkish for Asoiaf  :P

Nah, I think it's fine. They are working to bring up the aspect of this being a "game" of thrones (so it looks like a game board) and also all the "gears within gears", so it works as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 18, 2011, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
Especially good is Joffrey. That little cunt gets on my nerves without even uttering a single word.
This is so true.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 05:07:44 PM
Quote from: bogh on April 18, 2011, 04:39:19 PM
On the Sandor Clegane question;

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Sandor_dead/ (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Sandor_dead/)

I think its a fairly convincing argument. In general I can't think of a major character killed without the reader being a direct witness through a POV character.

Yeah. Reading that made me recall why I was so sure he was alive to begin with. There is little doubt that he is indeed alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 05:10:38 PM
Seen it.
The Hound is wrong. He's not as burned and nasty looking as I imagined. His helmet looks a bit silly too. My dad even chuckled at it.
Sansa- thought she'd been aged up, was wondering how her plot would work with the young adult she looks to be, turns out...she says she's 13. Ah. So its Westeros 90210 then.
One big dissapointing thing is that I know not too much will happen north of the wall now, that bit was awesome though.
Pentos was undewhelming. The whole thing there just...felt so very made for TV. Which it is but...yeah. Was expecting it to look grander.
Nude Dani was...nice. Hot.
I think a lot of people watching it are going to be very dissapointed after the initial battley lead in its going to be all politics with no others to be seen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 18, 2011, 05:10:38 PM
Sansa- thought she'd been aged up, was wondering how her plot would work with the young adult she looks to be, turns out...she says she's 13. Ah. So its Westeros 90210 then.

The actress was 14 when they were filming, turned 15 few weeks ago... so yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 18, 2011, 05:44:37 PM
Yeah, went and investigated and it seems so. She really does look old for her age.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 18, 2011, 05:48:39 PM
Wonder how long till they photoshop the pedobear into the Game of Thrones captions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 05:49:56 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
I will say this: Most misgivings I had about the casting are swept away. They simply Work.

I maintain that Cersei simply isn't stunning enough, but it's a minor quibble.

You remember how almost everyone in Crusader Kings was ugly, and even the best looking avatar merely looked good? The Middle Ages were kind of like that. Even the royals had poor nutrition, poor medical care, and poor cosmetics by our standards. Cleopatra and other legendary beauties of the pre-modern age probably wouldn't look that great to us, especially once they were out of their early 20s.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 05:49:56 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM
I will say this: Most misgivings I had about the casting are swept away. They simply Work.

I maintain that Cersei simply isn't stunning enough, but it's a minor quibble.

You remember how almost everyone in Crusader Kings was ugly, and even the best looking avatar merely looked good? The Middle Ages were kind of like that. Even the royals had poor nutrition, poor medical care, and poor cosmetics by our standards. Cleopatra and other legendary beauties of the pre-modern age probably wouldn't look that great to us, especially once they were out of their early 20s.

You, of all people?

For shame.  :mad:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dinosaurcentral.com%2Fimages%2Fwild_west_dinos%2FRobot_Pirate_Vs._Zombie_Ninja_On_Dinosaur.jpg&hash=6732d02ce7cfa54cdfcd4c3502b41f407325f359)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 06:07:46 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 18, 2011, 05:10:38 PM
Sansa- thought she'd been aged up, was wondering how her plot would work with the young adult she looks to be, turns out...she says she's 13. Ah. So its Westeros 90210 then.

The actress was 14 when they were filming, turned 15 few weeks ago... so yeah.
Just a year and some change is pretty damn good for Hollywood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: merithyn on April 18, 2011, 08:21:50 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 18, 2011, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 18, 2011, 05:10:38 PM
Sansa- thought she'd been aged up, was wondering how her plot would work with the young adult she looks to be, turns out...she says she's 13. Ah. So its Westeros 90210 then.

The actress was 14 when they were filming, turned 15 few weeks ago... so yeah.

I was going to say that if she wasn't 13 or 14, she did a damn good job of looking and acting it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 08:45:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.
The real dire wolves weren't all that, so I think it's okay. They only averaged about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighing about 110 kg (240 lb). Also they were stupider than real wolves. Making them a little bigger and smarter is fine by me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 08:45:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.
The real dire wolves weren't all that, so I think it's okay. They only averaged about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighing about 110 kg (240 lb). Also they were stupider than real wolves. Making them a little bigger and smarter is fine by me.

240 pounds is pretty good sized.  That's about the size of a Black Bear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:33:54 AM
Well, after watching the episode last night, I must say that it's awesometastic. Sure there were cuts here and there and I can perfectly picture the Martin Talebans screaming to high heaven about how they omitted a key quote or some minute detail, but in my book it was supremely well done.

And the direwolf puppies are so goddamn adorable...it's going to be heartbreaking when they execute Lady.  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 02:48:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:33:54 AM
Well, after watching the episode last night, I must say that it's awesometastic. Sure there were cuts here and there and I can perfectly picture the Martin Talebans screaming to high heaven about how they omitted a key quote or some minute detail, but in my book it was supremely well done.

And the direwolf puppies are so goddamn adorable...it's going to be heartbreaking when they execute Lady.  :cry:

OMG! Spoilaars!  :yucky:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:50:51 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 02:48:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:33:54 AM
Well, after watching the episode last night, I must say that it's awesometastic. Sure there were cuts here and there and I can perfectly picture the Martin Talebans screaming to high heaven about how they omitted a key quote or some minute detail, but in my book it was supremely well done.

And the direwolf puppies are so goddamn adorable...it's going to be heartbreaking when they execute Lady.  :cry:

OMG! Spoilaars!  :yucky:

If you know who Lady is, you already know how the situation ends. ;) They don't even name the pups in the episode.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:52:39 AM
Btw, you were totally right about the actor that plays Joffrey. He doesn't even get a single line, yet you want to punch him at first sight just for the smugness of his face.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Speaking of which, anyone disagrees that Lannisters get the best lines in the show?

Tyrion and Jaime have the best one-liners. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Speaking of which, anyone disagrees that Lannisters get the best lines in the show?

Tyrion and Jaime have the best one-liners. :P

If you are the kind of person who sees virtue in spite and malignance.

I think that sometimes we forget that there's a world outside the cauldron of hate, vitriol and malignance that is the Internet in general but Languish in particular, and begin to admire the perverse and degenerative.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" qualifies as the best one liner in my book.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 19, 2011, 06:31:05 AM
Nah, I liked the "A dothraki wedding without at least 3 deaths is considered a dull affair"
I recognised the Illyrio actor so much but couldn't place him, my mam said it was the guy from Knightmare (best ye olde kids show ever) but checking up thats a no, can't recognise anything from the actual guy's IMDB listing. hmm...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 19, 2011, 06:57:06 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" qualifies as the best one liner in my book.  :hmm:

One-liners are generally judged on their wit rather than their wisdom...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 19, 2011, 06:59:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 19, 2011, 06:31:05 AM
Nah, I liked the "A dothraki wedding without at least 3 deaths is considered a dull affair"
I recognised the Illyrio actor so much but couldn't place him, my mam said it was the guy from Knightmare (best ye olde kids show ever) but checking up thats a no, can't recognise anything from the actual guy's IMDB listing. hmm...

V for Vendetta? Also from the opposition camp in The Thick of It.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 19, 2011, 07:17:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:52:39 AM
Btw, you were totally right about the actor that plays Joffrey. He doesn't even get a single line, yet you want to punch him at first sight just for the smugness of his face.
Heh,yeah, so the actor was doing his character right. As in the book Joff is pretty much a vain, shallow, egotist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:24:00 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Speaking of which, anyone disagrees that Lannisters get the best lines in the show?

Tyrion and Jaime have the best one-liners. :P

If you are the kind of person who sees virtue in spite and malignance.

I think that sometimes we forget that there's a world outside the cauldron of hate, vitriol and malignance that is the Internet in general but Languish in particular, and begin to admire the perverse and degenerative.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" qualifies as the best one liner in my book.  :hmm:

Disagree. "The things I do for love" is much better.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 19, 2011, 07:24:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Speaking of which, anyone disagrees that Lannisters get the best lines in the show?

Tyrion and Jaime have the best one-liners. :P

If you are the kind of person who sees virtue in spite and malignance.

I think that sometimes we forget that there's a world outside the cauldron of hate, vitriol and malignance that is the Internet in general but Languish in particular, and begin to admire the perverse and degenerative.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" qualifies as the best one liner in my book.  :hmm:

I agree with my Swedonazi friend.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:24:44 AM
"He won't be a boy forever, and winter is coming".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:26:08 AM
If you are looking for wisdom and not just being witty, then still Tyrion wins with: "Never forget who you are, for surely the world won't. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
Btw, another important character that gets relatively little screen time is Theon Greyjoy. Who he is exactly is not explained at all in the episode, I guess that'll be exposed later. For now he's just a guy who hangs around the Stark kids but who clearly is not part of the family and follows Eddard directly. In fact in the archery scene at the beginning I kinda expected that the person who out-shot Bran from behind was him and not Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:26:08 AM
If you are looking for wisdom and not just being witty, then still Tyrion wins with: "Never forget who you are, for surely the world won't. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."

Too long to be the best one liner, what with it being 4 lines and all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
Btw, another important character that gets relatively little screen time is Theon Greyjoy. Who he is exactly is not explained at all in the episode, I guess that'll be exposed later. For now he's just a guy who hangs around the Stark kids but who clearly is not part of the family and follows Eddard directly. In fact in the archery scene at the beginning I kinda expected that the person who out-shot Bran from behind was him and not Arya.

I could easily see Theon being one of the characters who ends up getting essentially cut out of the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 19, 2011, 07:33:41 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:50:51 AM
If you know who Lady is, you already know how the situation ends. ;) They don't even name the pups in the episode.  :P

I refrained from laughing hysterically when a girl I watched it with said she'd only keep watching for more puppies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
Btw, another important character that gets relatively little screen time is Theon Greyjoy. Who he is exactly is not explained at all in the episode, I guess that'll be exposed later. For now he's just a guy who hangs around the Stark kids but who clearly is not part of the family and follows Eddard directly. In fact in the archery scene at the beginning I kinda expected that the person who out-shot Bran from behind was him and not Arya.

I could easily see Theon being one of the characters who ends up getting essentially cut out of the story.

Could be, cuts have to be made and the story has to be simplified for the screen. At least for now he just doesn't figure much on the story. In the second season it'd be a different story altogether, and if Theon is given a smaller role somehow the Greyjoy storyline would differ notably from the one in the books.

Btw, a buddy that has been intensively following the development of the series told me the other day that, apparently, some important character that dies in the 3rd book will be killed off during this season instead. I'm curious already...  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 19, 2011, 07:35:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
Btw, another important character that gets relatively little screen time is Theon Greyjoy. Who he is exactly is not explained at all in the episode, I guess that'll be exposed later. For now he's just a guy who hangs around the Stark kids but who clearly is not part of the family and follows Eddard directly. In fact in the archery scene at the beginning I kinda expected that the person who out-shot Bran from behind was him and not Arya.
Wasn't it the same in the book?
I remember being really vague on who he was until pretty much the part with the wildlings in the forest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:36:18 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 19, 2011, 07:33:41 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 02:50:51 AM
If you know who Lady is, you already know how the situation ends. ;) They don't even name the pups in the episode.  :P

I refrained from laughing hysterically when a girl I watched it with said she'd only keep watching for more puppies.

Well, by the end of the season there should be dragon puppies around instead.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:39:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 19, 2011, 07:35:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
Btw, another important character that gets relatively little screen time is Theon Greyjoy. Who he is exactly is not explained at all in the episode, I guess that'll be exposed later. For now he's just a guy who hangs around the Stark kids but who clearly is not part of the family and follows Eddard directly. In fact in the archery scene at the beginning I kinda expected that the person who out-shot Bran from behind was him and not Arya.
Wasn't it the same in the book?
I remember being really vague on who he was until pretty much the part with the wildlings in the forest.

More or less, he only gets to be a POV character by the second book, but who he was was established since more or less the beginning, stressing that he's a ward of the Starks since the Greyjoy uprising.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:49:26 AM
One thing I find kinda funny is that each of the several people who never read the books and saw episode one, that I spoke to, say that they were pretty clear and not really confused by it, whereas a lot of people who actually read the books seem to worry that a lot of things is not explained and it will be confusing to viewers.

I think we have become so saturated with SOIAF lore that we fail to appreciate that the show is made pretty much in the same way as the books - i.e. things are being introduced slowly and a lot of things is not said explicitly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:51:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
Btw, another important character that gets relatively little screen time is Theon Greyjoy. Who he is exactly is not explained at all in the episode, I guess that'll be exposed later. For now he's just a guy who hangs around the Stark kids but who clearly is not part of the family and follows Eddard directly. In fact in the archery scene at the beginning I kinda expected that the person who out-shot Bran from behind was him and not Arya.

I could easily see Theon being one of the characters who ends up getting essentially cut out of the story.

Could be, cuts have to be made and the story has to be simplified for the screen. At least for now he just doesn't figure much on the story. In the second season it'd be a different story altogether, and if Theon is given a smaller role somehow the Greyjoy storyline would differ notably from the one in the books.

Btw, a buddy that has been intensively following the development of the series told me the other day that, apparently, some important character that dies in the 3rd book will be killed off during this season instead. I'm curious already...  :ph34r:

If it's Renly, I'm gonna be pissed.

Who else dies in book three? Robb, Catelyn, Tywin and Jeoffrey are the ones I can think of right now (from the ones we have seen).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:56:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:51:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 07:35:00 AM
Btw, a buddy that has been intensively following the development of the series told me the other day that, apparently, some important character that dies in the 3rd book will be killed off during this season instead. I'm curious already...  :ph34r:

If it's Renly, I'm gonna be pissed.

Who else dies in book three? Robb, Catelyn, Tywin and Jeoffrey are the ones I can think of right now (from the ones we have seen).

Renly dies in the second book, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on April 19, 2011, 08:34:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:51:29 AM
If it's Renly, I'm gonna be pissed.

Who else dies in book three? Robb, Catelyn, Tywin and Jeoffrey are the ones I can think of right now (from the ones we have seen).

It's apparently someone minor, like Rast (who? exactly) or Hoster Tully.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 19, 2011, 08:39:41 AM
It'll probally be Old Nan. The actress who plays her died. Or  was she a book 2 death?...can't recall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 08:51:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 19, 2011, 08:39:41 AM
It'll probally be Old Nan. The actress who plays her died. Or  was she a book 2 death?...can't recall.

The last time she's mentioned is amongst the commoners present at Winterfell when Theon backstabs the Starks and takes the castle. I can't remember if it's specifically said that she died or not in the process.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Speaking of which, anyone disagrees that Lannisters get the best lines in the show?

Tyrion and Jaime have the best one-liners. :P

If you are the kind of person who sees virtue in spite and malignance.

I think that sometimes we forget that there's a world outside the cauldron of hate, vitriol and malignance that is the Internet in general but Languish in particular, and begin to admire the perverse and degenerative.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" qualifies as the best one liner in my book.  :hmm:
I loved Ned's delivery of "I don't fight in tournaments because when I fight a man for real, I don't want him to know what I can do."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 08:51:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 19, 2011, 08:39:41 AM
It'll probally be Old Nan. The actress who plays her died. Or  was she a book 2 death?...can't recall.

The last time she's mentioned is amongst the commoners present at Winterfell when Theon backstabs the Starks and takes the castle. I can't remember if it's specifically said that she died or not in the process.

I seem to have this weird memory of this being either implied or explicitly said that she dies (something along the lines of "They killed everybody, even the Old Nan") but I may be making that up.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Early ratings.

A bit disappointing in the US, far above expectations in Britain.
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/04/initial-game-of-thrones-ratings-info.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Early ratings.

A bit disappointing in the US, far above expectations in Britain.
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/04/initial-game-of-thrones-ratings-info.html

4.2 million people doesn't seem like a bad number.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 09:49:33 AM
That update wasn't there when I posted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 19, 2011, 10:46:19 AM
HBO have renewed for a second season according to Georgie Porgie.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 11:00:25 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 19, 2011, 10:46:19 AM
HBO have renewed for a second season according to Georgie Porgie.

Funny name.  :lol:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/19/game-of-thrones-renewed/ (http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/19/game-of-thrones-renewed/)

They did the same with Boardwalk Empire, one episode and renewed. According to critics who have been allowed to watch several episodes this one is the dullest of them all, so it seems that things can only get better.

http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-season-1-episode-1/ (http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-season-1-episode-1/)

QuoteFirst, the semi-bad news: Sunday's heavily re-shot super-sized 65-minute pilot -- despite its big revelation and shocking ending -- is one of the more sluggish-feeling of the first six episodes of Thrones I've seen. So if you watched Thrones and didn't see what all the fuss was about, you must stick with the series through next week. And if you loved Sunday's debut, you're going to lose your head in the weeks to come.

It's a funny review, plenty of nuggets to chuckle with in the link.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 11:10:49 AM
I wa hoping for a ratings flop, a cancellation and nerd rage.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 19, 2011, 10:46:19 AM
HBO have renewed for a second season according to Georgie Porgie.

Already confirmed by HBO/GoT on Facebook.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 11:17:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Speaking of which, anyone disagrees that Lannisters get the best lines in the show?

Tyrion and Jaime have the best one-liners. :P

If you are the kind of person who sees virtue in spite and malignance.

I think that sometimes we forget that there's a world outside the cauldron of hate, vitriol and malignance that is the Internet in general but Languish in particular, and begin to admire the perverse and degenerative.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" qualifies as the best one liner in my book.  :hmm:
I loved Ned's delivery of "I don't fight in tournaments because when I fight a man for real, I don't want him to know what I can do."

Yeah, that was a good one as well. The air was pretty thick with subtext there.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 19, 2011, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 19, 2011, 10:46:19 AM
HBO have renewed for a second season according to Georgie Porgie.

Good.  I was hoping to at least see the Battle of the Blackwater.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 19, 2011, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 11:10:49 AM
I wa hoping for a ratings flop, a cancellation and nerd rage.  :(

:console:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 11:22:52 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2011, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 11:10:49 AM
I wa hoping for a ratings flop, a cancellation and nerd rage.  :(

:console:

My universe exploded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on April 19, 2011, 11:42:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 07:26:08 AM
If you are looking for wisdom and not just being witty, then still Tyrion wins with: "Never forget who you are, for surely the world won't. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
You didn't even include the best part: "In their father's eyes, every dwarf is a bastard."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 19, 2011, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2011, 09:44:50 AM
4.2 million people doesn't seem like a bad number.
I am kinda wondering if people haven't been trained to expect more from TV these days, and it takes this kind of expenditure to get this kind of audience (outside of reality TV).  Gritty seems to be the only kind of drama that sells any more.  I enjoy gritty, so i like this shift, but I am kinda surprised it has become so mainstream.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 04:28:12 PM
Next on the Game of Thrones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_30wzerP0M&feature=feedu

Underage lesbian group sex, child slaughter, midget abuse and more!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 19, 2011, 04:42:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 19, 2011, 12:39:19 PM
I am kinda wondering if people haven't been trained to expect more from TV these days, and it takes this kind of expenditure to get this kind of audience (outside of reality TV).

I dunno, network productions don't seem to have better values, but they get canceled if they can't get double that audience. Course HBO's getting paid twice. Make that three times(ads, subscribers and dvd sales).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 19, 2011, 05:53:46 PM
Who are all these people? Man, to some one who didn't read the books the first show is thick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 19, 2011, 06:29:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 04:28:12 PM
Next on the Game of Thrones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_30wzerP0M&feature=feedu

Underage lesbian group sex, child slaughter, midget abuse and more!
*tries to remember lesbian sex from the first book, fails, scratches head*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 19, 2011, 06:29:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 19, 2011, 04:28:12 PM
Next on the Game of Thrones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_30wzerP0M&feature=feedu

Underage lesbian group sex, child slaughter, midget abuse and more!
*tries to remember lesbian sex from the first book, fails, scratches head*

Yeah, I think there was a scene where one of Daenys handmaidens gav her a little relief, but that was not book one, I don't think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 19, 2011, 08:00:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
Yeah, I think there was a scene where one of Daenys handmaidens gav her a little relief, but that was not book one, I don't think.

That was such a creepy scene in the book to.  But then most of the sex in this series is creepy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 08:05:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2011, 08:00:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
Yeah, I think there was a scene where one of Daenys handmaidens gav her a little relief, but that was not book one, I don't think.

That was such a creepy scene in the book to.  But then most of the sex in this series is creepy.

Sex as imagined by fat lonely guys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 19, 2011, 08:06:45 PM
He got married recently to what was, effectively, his common-law wife for 35 years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 08:08:27 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 19, 2011, 08:06:45 PM
He got married recently to what was, effectively, his common-law wife for 35 years.

Thank you for ruining my jokes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 19, 2011, 08:26:18 PM
Watched it. A bit slow but to be expected for the first episode. The king being an actor from a crappy sitcom kept throwing me off. Plus boobies which are always good
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 19, 2011, 08:58:08 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 19, 2011, 08:08:27 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 19, 2011, 08:06:45 PM
He got married recently to what was, effectively, his common-law wife for 35 years.

Thank you for ruining my jokes.

:frog:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 11:52:59 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 19, 2011, 05:53:46 PM
Who are all these people? Man, to some one who didn't read the books the first show is thick.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.screenrant.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FGame-of-Thrones-Houses-infographic-Westeros-101-f.jpg&hash=686d5d4383ace4f33e3497916c245b4abdccd4a9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 20, 2011, 07:33:11 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 19, 2011, 04:42:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 19, 2011, 12:39:19 PM
I am kinda wondering if people haven't been trained to expect more from TV these days, and it takes this kind of expenditure to get this kind of audience (outside of reality TV).

I dunno, network productions don't seem to have better values, but they get canceled if they can't get double that audience. Course HBO's getting paid twice. Make that three times(ads, subscribers and dvd sales).

HBO gets paid many more times besides that. It was reported a couple of weeks ago that before the show premiered it was already HBO's highest grossing series ever in terms of overseas sales, at 2'5 million $ per episode. The previous record belonged to The Sopranos, with a bit more than one million. And that was before the series premiered.

QuoteIn a latest sign of international success, the premium pay network's newest show, Game of Thrones, premieres on Sunday, but has already become HBO's best-selling series abroad ever, fetching more than $2.5 million an episode, more than 50% above the international price tag for The Sopranos, the paper said.

"We have significantly accelerated our international thrust over the past few years," HBO CEO Bill Nelson told the Journal. "We have broken through at a much, much higher level than in the past, and have found that our programming not only crosses geographical boundaries but cultural ones as well."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-top-1-billion-international-176907 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-top-1-billion-international-176907)

And for illustrative and comparison purposes:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F7kingdoms.ru%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F03%2Ftv-show-budget1.png&hash=01b17d9687c7836bf450c2ee3a1ad64c085ba991)

I'd say that the HBO executives in charge of the series will be rolling on dollars in Scrooge-like fashion for a few years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 20, 2011, 07:50:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 20, 2011, 07:33:11 AM
I'd say that the HBO executives in charge of the series will be rolling on dollars in Scrooge-like fashion for a few years.

Maybe even longer than that if Martin decides to hurriedly write a few more books than he's planned on.    ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 20, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
Damn, John Adams was expensive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 20, 2011, 07:57:55 AM
I would have thought "The Pacific" would have been up there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 20, 2011, 08:05:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 20, 2011, 07:57:55 AM
I would have thought "The Pacific" would have been up there.

IIRC, The Pacific's budget was around 150 million $, and it had 10 episodes, so it'd come at roughly 15 millions per episode, near the top of the graph.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2011, 08:08:23 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 19, 2011, 05:53:46 PM
Who are all these people? Man, to some one who didn't read the books the first show is thick.

Just get the basics of the plot at the beginning.  This is a long series you will learn who is important and who is not as time goes by.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 20, 2011, 08:13:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 20, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
Damn, John Adams was expensive.
Salaries, perhaps?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 20, 2011, 08:18:37 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 20, 2011, 08:13:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 20, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
Damn, John Adams was expensive.
Salaries, perhaps?

Besides Giamatti, were there other big names on it?  :hmm: Besides him the only one that comes to mind is David Morse, who played Washington, and I don't think he's in the same league as Giamatti salary-wise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 20, 2011, 09:46:16 AM
I thought there were some references to tides, so I imagine there is a moon.  Really though, it's not something you should think to much about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 20, 2011, 10:07:12 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?

It's a story.  :secret:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 20, 2011, 10:08:44 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?

Probably makes sense in a world where, in the 22nd century, dinosaurs are enslaved by the Confederacy instead of blacks. Map?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 20, 2011, 10:10:30 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 20, 2011, 10:08:44 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?

Probably makes sense in a world where, in the 22nd century, dinosaurs are enslaved by the Confederacy instead of blacks. Map?

Mew is coming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 20, 2011, 10:08:44 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?

Probably makes sense in a world where, in the 22nd century, dinosaurs are enslaved by the Confederacy instead of blacks. Map?
Humans wouldn't have evolved in that scenario, hell, Dinosaurs wouldn't have evolved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 20, 2011, 01:30:09 PM
Khal Drogo has really good teeth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 20, 2011, 01:33:52 PM
That was pretty good. I thought they picked a perfect actor for Mormont.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 06:41:24 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 20, 2011, 01:30:09 PM
Khal Drogo has really good teeth.
Probably doesn't have much sugar in his diet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 20, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?

I thought of the same things when I first started reading it, since I was taking astronomy classes at the time. It could be possible since there's several different cycles that can effect the seasonal cycle. You'd want one that's not too regular and predictable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2011, 12:09:28 AM
Nice to know I wasn't the only one HMBOB

Looks like Martin's going to write the episode for the Battle of the Blackwater!  :menace:
http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2011/04/20/martin-to-write-key-episode-for-game-of-thrones-season-2/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 01:32:30 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 20, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
I was thinking of how Song of Ice and Fire type weather might be possible sans magic; i.e. alternating short (on a geological scale) but intense and irregular cold periods and warm periods with seasonal variation there in. I wondered if lacking a moon would do it. (I can't remember if there's a moon in the story or not, I assume there is). The axial tilt of the Earth would shift far more frequently without the moon if IIRC, causing drastic climactic changes. Am I on the right track or way off base?

I thought of the same things when I first started reading it, since I was taking astronomy classes at the time. It could be possible since there's several different cycles that can effect the seasonal cycle. You'd want one that's not too regular and predictable.

Couldn't this be largely unrelated to astronomy but rather to the conditions on the planet? Things like volcanic activity, ocean circulation etc. could very well cause "winters" (read:mini ice age) without there being much change to the planet's position.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2011, 01:36:34 AM
The positions of land masses and their effects on Ocean currents can definitely cause radical climactic change.

The repeated Ice Ages of the last few million years have been primarily caused by the fact that the South Pole is covered by Antarctica and the Arctic Ocean is almost completely surrounded by land.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 01:37:45 AM
Btw, I don't remember whether the books say that the "winter is coming" phenomenon occurs globally or is this more of a Westeros-based phenomenon? If the latter, this could be related to some sort of Gulfstrom surrounding Westeros that goes down or up depending on icecaps melting or whatever, and causes these strong winter periods. Europe would pretty much plunge to the climatic levels of Canada if the real-world Gulfstrom was shut down so that's not so unlikely (and since GRRM is a leftie, he probably is familiar with all the "global warming causes global ice age" theories).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2011, 01:50:30 AM
But the long winters in Westeros are cyclical, what kind of mechanism are you envisioning that would both melt and re-freeze the icecaps?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 21, 2011, 01:51:04 AM
I have a theory on this: Martin needed this good story element, so he made it up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 01:55:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2011, 01:50:30 AM
But the long winters in Westeros are cyclical, what kind of mechanism are you envisioning that would both melt and re-freeze the icecaps?

But they are not predictably cyclical - in middle ages we also had a "mini ice age" and then again in the 16th century.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Martin has said specifically that the winters are 100% magical, no crazy astronomy or gulf streams or anything.

Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 21, 2011, 06:18:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 20, 2011, 08:18:37 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 20, 2011, 08:13:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 20, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
Damn, John Adams was expensive.
Salaries, perhaps?

Besides Giamatti, were there other big names on it?  :hmm: Besides him the only one that comes to mind is David Morse, who played Washington, and I don't think he's in the same league as Giamatti salary-wise.

Laura Linney? I think Adams suffered from the need to get things perfectly in line with a series of ceremonial oil paintings that were not very true to reality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2011, 06:22:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Martin has said specifically that the winters are 100% magical, no crazy astronomy or gulf streams or anything.
Never get between a goober and the object of his gooberness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right? Why do retards always seem to think that LOL WE GET CLOSR 2 TEH SUN IN SUMMR?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2011, 07:35:59 AM
Yes but how does adding a second sun affect that dynamic?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right?

Uhhh, wut?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2011, 07:41:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right?

Uhhh, wut?

Well, it's true. It's an angle thing more then anything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right?

Uhhh, wut?

The cycle of seasons on Earth (and accompanying temperature changes) are mainly connected with the Earth's axis/which part of Earth is being shined upon by the Sun - winter doesn't happen because at the time the Earth is far from the Sun, but because at the time, the hemisphere where winter happens is under the "wrong" angle vis-a-vis the Sun.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:45:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right?

Uhhh, wut?

The cycle of seasons on Earth (and accompanying temperature changes) are mainly connected with the Earth's axis/which part of Earth is being shined upon by the Sun - winter doesn't happen because at the time the Earth is far from the Sun, but because at the time, the hemisphere where winter happens is under the "wrong" angle vis-a-vis the Sun.


Ahh, you are talking about the variance in temperature not being about distance from the sun, rather than the temperature itself.

Gotcha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2011, 07:50:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right?

Uhhh, wut?

The cycle of seasons on Earth (and accompanying temperature changes) are mainly connected with the Earth's axis/which part of Earth is being shined upon by the Sun - winter doesn't happen because at the time the Earth is far from the Sun, but because at the time, the hemisphere where winter happens is under the "wrong" angle vis-a-vis the Sun.
:bleeding: Why do retards always fuck up explanations of the earth's temperatures with arguments like "temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun? "

Of course temperatures have to do with distance fromthe sun.  That is why Mercury is so ho0t and Neptune so cold.  This is simple stuff that even Polack schools should be able to impart to students.  Maybe you were absent that day?

The seasons on earth have more to do with axial tilt than orbital distance from the sun, but that doesn't mean that distance from the sun isn't the more important factor in overall temperature.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 21, 2011, 07:56:03 AM
I'm sure retards don't care about how the earth's position affects them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2011, 07:58:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2011, 07:50:45 AM
That is why Mercury is so ho0t and Neptune so cold.


Mercury is a PARTY?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 21, 2011, 07:59:59 AM
Or an owl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 21, 2011, 08:05:51 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 21, 2011, 07:58:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2011, 07:50:45 AM
That is why Mercury is so ho0t and Neptune so cold.


Mercury is a PARTY?

Friday is a PARTY.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 21, 2011, 08:06:31 AM
He's not pretending to be a scientist, he's pretending to be a lawyer.  Jeez, give the guy some slack.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 21, 2011, 09:10:21 AM
"Why do retards and Australians always seem to think that LOL WE GET CLOSR 2 TEH SUN IN SUMMR? "

I have corrected your post marti.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 21, 2011, 09:53:57 AM
Questions to astronomotards: is a highly elliptic orbit around a sun that exacerbates the tilt-induced seasons on a planet?


In Tad Williams' Dragonbone Chair books there appears a comet in the sky, followed by a long, hot summer, lasting well into december, followed by a harsh winter that reaches almost into the tropics. To layman me that made enough cosmological sense ... actually besides the "fade" (to use a Dragon Age term) and a few special skills by the elves Sithi there's precious little supernatural stuff going on in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2011, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 01:37:45 AM
Btw, I don't remember whether the books say that the "winter is coming" phenomenon occurs globally or is this more of a Westeros-based phenomenon? If the latter, this could be related to some sort of Gulfstrom surrounding Westeros that goes down or up depending on icecaps melting or whatever, and causes these strong winter periods. Europe would pretty much plunge to the climatic levels of Canada if the real-world Gulfstrom was shut down so that's not so unlikely (and since GRRM is a leftie, he probably is familiar with all the "global warming causes global ice age" theories).

I think he mentioned in an interview that it only really affects Westeros. This could be because only Westeros extends north enough (there's a chapter in GoT where Bran, in a coma, dreams of flying far north of the wall and sees the Others and some still unexplained things), or there could be another thing. There's no evidence in the books, that I know of, for the winters or Others affecting the other lands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2011, 10:06:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 21, 2011, 09:53:57 AM
Questions to astronomotards: is a highly elliptic orbit around a sun that exacerbates the tilt-induced seasons on a planet?


In Tad Williams' Dragonbone Chair books there appears a comet in the sky, followed by a long, hot summer, lasting well into december, followed by a harsh winter that reaches almost into the tropics. To layman me that made enough cosmological sense ... actually besides the "fade" (to use a Dragon Age term) and a few special skills by the elves Sithi there's precious little supernatural stuff going on in the books.

An elliptical orbit would do that, though I don't think a comet could push a planet into an elliptical orbit. It would be pretty regular, though, which rules it out for Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 10:10:32 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:45:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right?

Uhhh, wut?

The cycle of seasons on Earth (and accompanying temperature changes) are mainly connected with the Earth's axis/which part of Earth is being shined upon by the Sun - winter doesn't happen because at the time the Earth is far from the Sun, but because at the time, the hemisphere where winter happens is under the "wrong" angle vis-a-vis the Sun.


Ahh, you are talking about the variance in temperature not being about distance from the sun, rather than the temperature itself.

Gotcha.

Yeah. Of course if the orbit is far from the sun to begin with, it's going to affect overall temperature. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 10:12:50 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2011, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 01:37:45 AM
Btw, I don't remember whether the books say that the "winter is coming" phenomenon occurs globally or is this more of a Westeros-based phenomenon? If the latter, this could be related to some sort of Gulfstrom surrounding Westeros that goes down or up depending on icecaps melting or whatever, and causes these strong winter periods. Europe would pretty much plunge to the climatic levels of Canada if the real-world Gulfstrom was shut down so that's not so unlikely (and since GRRM is a leftie, he probably is familiar with all the "global warming causes global ice age" theories).

I think he mentioned in an interview that it only really affects Westeros. This could be because only Westeros extends north enough (there's a chapter in GoT where Bran, in a coma, dreams of flying far north of the wall and sees the Others and some still unexplained things), or there could be another thing. There's no evidence in the books, that I know of, for the winters or Others affecting the other lands.

That's what I thought - so the argument about "distance from the sun" would make no sense. If you discount the "OMG ITS TEH MAGICK" argument that Martin seems to put forth (probably because he is lazy :P), some sort of "ocean conveyer" theory probably makes most sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 21, 2011, 10:18:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2011, 07:50:45 AM
Of course temperatures have to do with distance fromthe sun.  That is why Mercury is so ho0t and Neptune so cold. 

And why Mercury is so hot and Venus even hotter. Hey, wait a minute....! :wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 10:18:44 AM
Lazy? Christ, the dude is an author. If he wants his world to have weird seasons and weather, then it isn't "lazy" to just say it is so and call it magic in a fantasy setting.

Shit, don't give the dude MORE work to do outside of telling his story! The last thing we need is a couple hundred fucking pages explaining how all THAT works!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2011, 10:20:01 AM
It wouldn't have taken any work to write the story without a moon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 21, 2011, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 10:18:44 AM
Lazy? Christ, the dude is an author. If he wants his world to have weird seasons and weather, then it isn't "lazy" to just say it is so and call it magic in a fantasy setting.

Shit, don't give the dude MORE work to do outside of telling his story! The last thing we need is a couple hundred fucking pages explaining how all THAT works!

"Magic did it"? Let me guess: there's magics all the way down. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 10:22:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2011, 10:18:44 AM
Lazy? Christ, the dude is an author. If he wants his world to have weird seasons and weather, then it isn't "lazy" to just say it is so and call it magic in a fantasy setting.

Shit, don't give the dude MORE work to do outside of telling his story! The last thing we need is a couple hundred fucking pages explaining how all THAT works!

No, you misunderstand me - that's what I meant, really, and I agree with you. What I wanted to imply that GRRM probably thought that if he comes up with anything remotely resembling a scientific explanation, there will be always some smartass out there proving immediately how this is wrong and it couldn't work like this. So he came up with "It's magic" explanation to prevent that.

That does mean us nerds can't try to find a scientific explanation for that. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2011, 10:25:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 10:12:50 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 21, 2011, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 01:37:45 AM
Btw, I don't remember whether the books say that the "winter is coming" phenomenon occurs globally or is this more of a Westeros-based phenomenon? If the latter, this could be related to some sort of Gulfstrom surrounding Westeros that goes down or up depending on icecaps melting or whatever, and causes these strong winter periods. Europe would pretty much plunge to the climatic levels of Canada if the real-world Gulfstrom was shut down so that's not so unlikely (and since GRRM is a leftie, he probably is familiar with all the "global warming causes global ice age" theories).

I think he mentioned in an interview that it only really affects Westeros. This could be because only Westeros extends north enough (there's a chapter in GoT where Bran, in a coma, dreams of flying far north of the wall and sees the Others and some still unexplained things), or there could be another thing. There's no evidence in the books, that I know of, for the winters or Others affecting the other lands.

That's what I thought - so the argument about "distance from the sun" would make no sense. If you discount the "OMG ITS TEH MAGICK" argument that Martin seems to put forth (probably because he is lazy :P), some sort of "ocean conveyer" theory probably makes most sense.

Yeah, but the astronomy theory works until you actually spend time outside of Westeros.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 21, 2011, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2011, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2011, 05:21:25 AM
Without magic....some sort of second sun orbiting the first which occasionally draws nearer to the planet giving warmer weather and other times is far away giving default colder weather?

:bleeding: You do realize that temperatures on Earth have preciously little to do with the *distance* from the Sun, right? Why do retards always seem to think that LOL WE GET CLOSR 2 TEH SUN IN SUMMR?
:bleeding:
Having another sun which draws closer to a planet sometimes and makes it warmer != distance from a sun is the only possible factor in the warmth of places.
Distance from the sun most certainly is a HUGE factor in the temperatures of planets. Or is it a complete coincidence Mercury tends to be so much hotter than our moon?


And I doubt its a case of him being afraid of smart arses which makes him say 'its magic', from reading the books it quite clearly does seem to be magic, the Others are closely tied in with the cold.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2011, 09:25:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 08:45:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.
The real dire wolves weren't all that, so I think it's okay. They only averaged about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighing about 110 kg (240 lb). Also they were stupider than real wolves. Making them a little bigger and smarter is fine by me.

240 pounds is pretty good sized.  That's about the size of a Black Bear.
I thought Black Bears were more like 300?

Anyways after reading up on them and watching a documentary on them that's a bit of an overestimate on their size, not sure where wikipedia got that number. From what I've seen elsewhere they were typically around 150 pounds, compared to the modern average of 80 for Grey Wolves.

IIRC in the book, the wolf was the size of Bran's pony, which would probably put it in the 400 pound range. That's about the size of a male lion. Martin's wolves seem proportioned a bit differently, with longer legs which means they likely hunted more like Grey Wolves than real Dire Wolves which had legs that were a bit shorter in proportion. And of course they're much smarter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 09:36:04 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2011, 09:25:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2011, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 18, 2011, 08:45:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Did anyone else think the direwolf looked to be about horse sized?

I mean, they are supposed to be big, but that is a bit much.
The real dire wolves weren't all that, so I think it's okay. They only averaged about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighing about 110 kg (240 lb). Also they were stupider than real wolves. Making them a little bigger and smarter is fine by me.

240 pounds is pretty good sized.  That's about the size of a Black Bear.
I thought Black Bears were more like 300?

Anyways after reading up on them and watching a documentary on them that's a bit of an overestimate on their size, not sure where wikipedia got that number. From what I've seen elsewhere they were typically around 150 pounds, compared to the modern average of 80 for Grey Wolves.

IIRC in the book, the wolf was the size of Bran's pony, which would probably put it in the 400 pound range. That's about the size of a male lion. Martin's wolves seem proportioned a bit differently, with longer legs which means they likely hunted more like Grey Wolves than real Dire Wolves which had legs that were a bit shorter in proportion. And of course they're much smarter.

All good and well, but I'm left wondering what impact this has had on the evolution of bovines, and whether they need shorter, stubbier legs and antlers in order to defend themselves, or perhaps have developed long spindly legs in order to be able to scale cliff faces to get away from the predators.

In extention, what does this do for husbandry, not least of all the flavour of the meat, but more importantly how does one domesticate a cliff-face scaling cow? What did the resulting reduction in protein do to the development of mankind? Is Cersei in fact considered so beautiful because she is fat like a cow? I'm beginning to think the casting was all wrong. Cersei needs to be less, how shall I say, attractive because in the 12th century it was certainly not a good thing to be skinny.

Can you posit a new map considering these facts, Timmy? I'd also like you to take into account what if any impact the creation of the Wall may have had on the weather patterns of Hyperborea. I mean, 800 feet wall of ice? That sucker has to put out a lot of cold and that's going to play hell with warm fronts stopping dead in their tracks. Resulting hurricanes on the sea of tranquility and global warming? The ramifications are pretty severe, I'd say. But I guess GRRM will just say "magic" and shrug his shoulders. Sloppy writing, that. No, I think we need to determine how, if at all, ships are able to traverse a sea without wind. That's all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 22, 2011, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 09:36:04 AM
but more importantly how does one domesticate a cliff-face scaling cow?

Same way one domesticates a goat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 09:55:58 AM
Ice does not "put out" cold, you dumbass.

Cold is the absence of heat.

Jesus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 09:55:58 AM
Ice does not "put out" cold, you dumbass.

Cold is the absence of heat.

Jesus.

Depends on how you look at it.  :hmm:

Regardless, since you are too stupid to answer my questions perhaps someone else can?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 09:55:58 AM
Ice does not "put out" cold, you dumbass.

Cold is the absence of heat.

Jesus.

Depends on how you look at it.  :hmm:



No, thermodynamics are not a matter of "how you look at it".

There is no way to look at it such that ice "puts out" cold. Being from the fucking arctic, you would think you would know that.

QuoteRegardless, since you are too stupid to answer my questions perhaps someone else can?

Your question is based on flawed understanding of simple science, and hence has no meaning, much like your existence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The real question is how 600 ft of ice remains standing after 14 years (or however much it was)of summer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:11:26 AM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The real question is how 600 ft of ice remains standing after 14 years (or however much it was)of summer.

It is in the far north. It isn't ever really warm up there. Although Martin does describe some melting of the wall.

He does mention that at one time the Watch actually built up the wall though...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 09:55:58 AM
Ice does not "put out" cold, you dumbass.

Cold is the absence of heat.

Jesus.

Depends on how you look at it.  :hmm:



No, thermodynamics are not a matter of "how you look at it".

There is no way to look at it such that ice "puts out" cold. Being from the fucking arctic, you would think you would know that.

QuoteRegardless, since you are too stupid to answer my questions perhaps someone else can?

Your question is based on flawed understanding of simple science, and hence has no meaning, much like your existence.

Everything depends on perspective. Didn't you know?

I still want to know how spindly-legged bovines affects the beauty of Princesses. Since you have no relevant answers to produce, why don't you just go back to beating your wife?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:12:06 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 09:55:58 AM
Ice does not "put out" cold, you dumbass.

Cold is the absence of heat.

Jesus.

Depends on how you look at it.  :hmm:



No, thermodynamics are not a matter of "how you look at it".

There is no way to look at it such that ice "puts out" cold. Being from the fucking arctic, you would think you would know that.

QuoteRegardless, since you are too stupid to answer my questions perhaps someone else can?

Your question is based on flawed understanding of simple science, and hence has no meaning, much like your existence.

Everything depends on perspective. Didn't you know?

I still want to know how spindly-legged bovines affects the beauty of Princesses. Since you have no relevant answers to produce, why don't you just go back to beating your wife?

Fuck that, I come here to get away from wife beating.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:15:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:11:26 AM
It is in the far north. It isn't ever really warm up there. Although Martin does describe some melting of the wall.
If it never gets more than a few degrees above  freezing there shouldn't be any trees I'd think. *shrug*
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:11:26 AM
He does mention that at one time the Watch actually built up the wall though...
Yea, but not for a few generations right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:15:08 AM


If it never gets more than a few degrees above  freezing there shouldn't be any trees I'd think. *shrug*
MAGIC. 

And, Berkut, Lovecraft and Howard both confirm that magical walls and beings emit cold.  And they would know.  QED.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:15:08 AM


If it never gets more than a few degrees above  freezing there shouldn't be any trees I'd think. *shrug*
MAGIC. 

And, Berkut, Lovecraft and Howard both confirm that magical walls and beings emit cold.  And they would know.  QED.

Well there you go. If grumbler agrees with me, there is no doubt.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Well there you go. If grumbler agrees with me, there is no doubt.  :hmm:
:yes: Even a Slargos is right twice a lifetime.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Well there you go. If grumbler agrees with me, there is no doubt.  :hmm:
:yes: Even a Slargos is right twice a lifetime.

And he is right this time as well. Your agreeing with him truly does leave no doubt... :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:54:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Well there you go. If grumbler agrees with me, there is no doubt.  :hmm:
:yes: Even a Slargos is right twice a lifetime.

And he is right this time as well. Your agreeing with him truly does leave no doubt... :P
:yes:  He was right about the cold, and right about the effect of me agreeing with him.

Noble of him to use both of his opportunities to be right in one thread...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Well there you go. If grumbler agrees with me, there is no doubt.  :hmm:
:yes: Even a Slargos is right twice a lifetime.

And he is right this time as well. Your agreeing with him truly does leave no doubt... :P

So we're all agreed, agreed?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 22, 2011, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:54:09 AM
So we're all agreed, agreed?

You're all wrong. Not sure what it is you're wrong about, just that you're wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 11:00:21 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 22, 2011, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:54:09 AM
So we're all agreed, agreed?

You're all wrong. Not sure what it is you're wrong about, just that you're wrong.

Well, I think that's a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2011, 01:17:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 22, 2011, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 22, 2011, 10:54:09 AM
So we're all agreed, agreed?

You're all wrong. Not sure what it is you're wrong about, just that you're wrong.
Way to go out on a limb, there!  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on April 22, 2011, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 21, 2011, 09:10:21 AM
"Why do retards and Australians always seem to think that LOL WE GET CLOSR 2 TEH SUN IN SUMMR? "

I have corrected your post marti.
You repeat yourself.

I watched it and thought it was good.  The number of really good actors they've got, even in minor roles, bodes well for the less well-known ones.  Roger Allam and Donald Sumpter :mmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2011, 06:09:28 AM
No, no it's not.

http://img.slate.com/blogs/blogs/browbeat/archive/2011/04/20/is-game-of-thrones-racist.aspx?wpisrc=obnetwork
QuoteTime's TV critic James Poniewozik, noting that the Dothraki seem to be made up of a "grabbag of exotic/dark/savage signifiers," wondered if it was "possible to be racist toward a race that does not actually exist."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HisMajestyBOB on April 23, 2011, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2011, 06:09:28 AM
No, no it's not.

http://img.slate.com/blogs/blogs/browbeat/archive/2011/04/20/is-game-of-thrones-racist.aspx?wpisrc=obnetwork
QuoteTime's TV critic James Poniewozik, noting that the Dothraki seem to be made up of a "grabbag of exotic/dark/savage signifiers," wondered if it was "possible to be racist toward a race that does not actually exist."

Just like Geico is not only racist towards cavemen, but they advertise it and base their corporate image around it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on April 23, 2011, 03:53:27 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 22, 2011, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 21, 2011, 09:10:21 AM
"Why do retards and Australians always seem to think that LOL WE GET CLOSR 2 TEH SUN IN SUMMR? "

I have corrected your post marti.
You repeat yourself.

I watched it and thought it was good.  The number of really good actors they've got, even in minor roles, bodes well for the less well-known ones.  Roger Allam and Donald Sumpter :mmm:

I'm busy reading the books atm, having previously been unaware that they are a cut above the standard fantasy fodder. I'll probably get the boxed set of the show whenever that comes out (that is how HBO accesses the Hakluyt purse  :D ).


It's good that they have put the boat out and hired good actors.................a lot of the fun (so far, halfway through book 2) is in liking, despising or detesting the various characters.............indifferent acting would spoil that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 05:22:32 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The real question is how 600 ft of ice remains standing after 14 years (or however much it was)of summer.

I wonder if a 600 ft wall of ice could even support itself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:42:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2011, 10:06:20 AM
No, thermodynamics are not a matter of "how you look at it".

There is no way to look at it such that ice "puts out" cold. Being from the fucking arctic, you would think you would know that.

You are not entirely correct. If the air temperature surrounding the ice is constant, then you are right. But if it fluctuates, then if the temperature rises, ice will make it colder than it would be otherwise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 23, 2011, 05:43:34 PM
:huh:

edit: sorry was directed at raz, not marti who was posting at same time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:47:57 PM
What? It's basic thermodynamics. When the winter comes, the temperature around the wall will decrease, which will cause the wall's temperature to decrease too - in layman terms you could say that the wall "accumulates cold" (although it is obviously not strictly correct as cold is the absence of heat, so in thermodynamics sense, it will really give out heat).

When the temperature around the wall goes up (i.e. summer comes), the warm air will cause the wall to melt, which will decrease the temperature of air around the wall, as the air will give away heat in the process of melting the well - thus, again in layman's terms, the wall will "give out cold" (i.e. accumulate heat, getting warmer in the process).

So, yes, Slargos was right that it's a matter of perspective, at least to the extent you describe the outward effects of the process, rather than the mechanics of the process itself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:54:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 05:22:32 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The real question is how 600 ft of ice remains standing after 14 years (or however much it was)of summer.

I wonder if a 600 ft wall of ice could even support itself.

Ever heard of icebergs?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on April 23, 2011, 05:56:53 PM
I always thought the winter and summer were just figurative :mellow:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 23, 2011, 05:57:41 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 23, 2011, 05:56:53 PM
I always thought the winter and summer were just figurative :mellow:

Never read the books, watched first episode last night and I already came to same conclusion :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 06:18:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:54:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 05:22:32 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The real question is how 600 ft of ice remains standing after 14 years (or however much it was)of summer.

I wonder if a 600 ft wall of ice could even support itself.

Ever heard of icebergs?

Yes, they are big pieces of Ice that float in the water so you know the water supports a great deal of it's weight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 23, 2011, 06:29:06 PM
Uh does it say how wide the wall is? I mean 600 feet is nothing, I just spent a day on 4,000 foot thick glacier.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 06:39:36 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 23, 2011, 06:29:06 PM
Uh does it say how wide the wall is? I mean 600 feet is nothing, I just spent a day on 4,000 foot thick glacier.

I believe it mentions that several horses can walk alongside one another on the top of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 23, 2011, 07:01:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 23, 2011, 05:56:53 PM
I always thought the winter and summer were just figurative :mellow:

:wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 23, 2011, 07:05:46 PM
This thread delivers, in all its chock-full-of-heady-Timmay-nerdgasm goodness.  You fucking monkeys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 23, 2011, 07:20:53 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 23, 2011, 07:05:46 PM
This thread delivers, in all its chock-full-of-heady-Timmay-nerdgasm goodness.  You fucking monkeys.

I'd like to stuff every one of them into a locker.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 23, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:47:57 PM
What? It's basic thermodynamics. When the winter comes, the temperature around the wall will decrease, which will cause the wall's temperature to decrease too - in layman terms you could say that the wall "accumulates cold" (although it is obviously not strictly correct as cold is the absence of heat, so in thermodynamics sense, it will really give out heat).

When the temperature around the wall goes up (i.e. summer comes), the warm air will cause the wall to melt, which will decrease the temperature of air around the wall, as the air will give away heat in the process of melting the well - thus, again in layman's terms, the wall will "give out cold" (i.e. accumulate heat, getting warmer in the process).

So, yes, Slargos was right that it's a matter of perspective, at least to the extent you describe the outward effects of the process, rather than the mechanics of the process itself.

:lol:

Well. Sometimes support comes from the unlikeliest of sources. Is it opposite week?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 23, 2011, 09:33:30 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 23, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:47:57 PM
What? It's basic thermodynamics. When the winter comes, the temperature around the wall will decrease, which will cause the wall's temperature to decrease too - in layman terms you could say that the wall "accumulates cold" (although it is obviously not strictly correct as cold is the absence of heat, so in thermodynamics sense, it will really give out heat).

When the temperature around the wall goes up (i.e. summer comes), the warm air will cause the wall to melt, which will decrease the temperature of air around the wall, as the air will give away heat in the process of melting the well - thus, again in layman's terms, the wall will "give out cold" (i.e. accumulate heat, getting warmer in the process).

So, yes, Slargos was right that it's a matter of perspective, at least to the extent you describe the outward effects of the process, rather than the mechanics of the process itself.

:lol:

Well. Sometimes support comes from the unlikeliest of sources. Is it opposite week?  :hmm:
Some days you get it right, and some days you get it Marti.  This is one of the latter days.  Pity, but then your argument was about a magical kingdom, so no great loss when you turned out to be arguing what Marti would argue. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 23, 2011, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 23, 2011, 09:33:30 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 23, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2011, 05:47:57 PM
What? It's basic thermodynamics. When the winter comes, the temperature around the wall will decrease, which will cause the wall's temperature to decrease too - in layman terms you could say that the wall "accumulates cold" (although it is obviously not strictly correct as cold is the absence of heat, so in thermodynamics sense, it will really give out heat).

When the temperature around the wall goes up (i.e. summer comes), the warm air will cause the wall to melt, which will decrease the temperature of air around the wall, as the air will give away heat in the process of melting the well - thus, again in layman's terms, the wall will "give out cold" (i.e. accumulate heat, getting warmer in the process).

So, yes, Slargos was right that it's a matter of perspective, at least to the extent you describe the outward effects of the process, rather than the mechanics of the process itself.

:lol:

Well. Sometimes support comes from the unlikeliest of sources. Is it opposite week?  :hmm:
Some days you get it right, and some days you get it Marti.  This is one of the latter days.  Pity, but then your argument was about a magical kingdom, so no great loss when you turned out to be arguing what Marti would argue.

You radiate a lot of cold. Are you magical?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1cp5H.png&hash=b7e2c224a0ed9c68f4a88f6b3900746472198951)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 24, 2011, 11:32:59 AM
Is there anyway to watch this show without subscribing to HBO?
I feel is a waste to pay 20 bucks a month just watch one TV show since HBO does not have anything else that interests me or that is not avaliable somewhere else.
If I subscribe then I will feel the obligation to waste my limited time watching their crap.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
*cough*  :pirate
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
*cough*  :pirate

I don't know how to torrent.
It is too complicated for me.
I would need step-by-step intructions.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
*cough*  :pirate

I don't know how to torrent.
It is too complicated for me.
I would need step-by-step intructions.

Here:

http://iitv.info/gra-o-tron--game-of-thrones/

Streamline of all popular tv shows, usually added on the following day. The website is in Polish but episodes are in the original language. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 01:27:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.

Europe: Pirate Haven? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:28:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 01:27:22 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.

Europe: Pirate Haven? :P

Yarr.  :pirate
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
*cough*  :pirate

I don't know how to torrent.
It is too complicated for me.
I would need step-by-step intructions.

Here:

http://iitv.info/gra-o-tron--game-of-thrones/

Streamline of all popular tv shows, usually added on the following day. The website is in Polish but episodes are in the original language. :P

Ok, I got to the screen with the Lexus ad, what do i do next?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.



What do i do ther?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:33:55 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.



What do i do ther?

Get utorrent, download torrents
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.



What do i do ther?


Never mind EZTV doens't work in amerika.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 24, 2011, 07:53:51 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 24, 2011, 01:26:17 PM
eztv.it would be preferable, I think.



What do i do ther?


Never mind EZTV doens't work in amerika.

:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 24, 2011, 07:56:30 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 24, 2011, 11:32:59 AM
Is there anyway to watch this show without subscribing to HBO?
I feel is a waste to pay 20 bucks a month just watch one TV show since HBO does not have anything else that interests me or that is not avaliable somewhere else.
If I subscribe then I will feel the obligation to waste my limited time watching their crap.

How very Semitic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 25, 2011, 01:11:14 AM
lots of wolves in this episode, should snare some more followers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 01:15:18 AM
 :menace:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi51.tinypic.com%2F24cv777.jpg&hash=0f8a13a9c08c088e35375f94d51d593525bdb202)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 25, 2011, 01:24:55 AM
Lesbians?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 25, 2011, 01:27:47 AM
Dreadnoughts?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 01:34:25 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 01:15:18 AM
:menace:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi51.tinypic.com%2F24cv777.jpg&hash=0f8a13a9c08c088e35375f94d51d593525bdb202)

Great. Now EdAnger is going to make this his avatar.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 03:26:18 AM
Excellent episode.

"He ran. Not very fast."

Love it.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 03:35:06 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 03:26:18 AM
Excellent episode.

"He ran. Not very fast."

Love it.  :D

Not surprised the Cleganes would be your favourite characters.  :glare:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 03:42:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 03:35:06 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 03:26:18 AM
Excellent episode.

"He ran. Not very fast."

Love it.  :D

Not surprised the Cleganes would be your favourite characters.  :glare:

:lol:

Gregor, not so much. He's just a monster. Now, Sandor there's some depth to. By far my favourite character in the series.

Thing is, Sandor is set up to look like a bad guy and for most people that's the farthest they will ever look. You don't think, and so you don't see.

Sandor may be one of the most noble characters in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 04:06:56 AM
Meh, I hate that they cut out Catelyn's "Jon Snow, I wish it was you, not Bran" (I paraphrase). I thought that line was important in setting up Catelyn, and they cut it/played down the hatred she has for Snow.  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 04:20:15 AM
I love Summer though. That's a good dire wolf.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 04:06:56 AM
Meh, I hate that they cut out Catelyn's "Jon Snow, I wish it was you, not Bran" (I paraphrase). I thought that line was important in setting up Catelyn, and they cut it/played down the hatred she has for Snow.  <_<

The show needs to rely on mimics and tone in order to convey thoughts that the books could verbalize. I think the scene between Catelyn and Snow worked very well to set the tone between them. For the same reason I can readily accept the change in the relationship between Drogo and Dany even though it is rather fundamental.

Arya and Sandor stole, I think, this episode. That little girl played the angry "you'll pay for this, mother fuckers" very, very well.

In alles, the acting has been superb thus far. I don't understand the bitching about Sansa, I think she's played the naive Ladyling very well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 25, 2011, 04:35:15 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 03:42:38 AM
Gregor, not so much. He's just a monster. Now, Sandor there's some depth to. By far my favourite character in the series.

Thing is, Sandor is set up to look like a bad guy and for most people that's the farthest they will ever look. You don't think, and so you don't see.

Sandor may be one of the most noble characters in the series.

I think it's more a case of Sandor is evolving to be less of a bad guy. I think when he was Tywin's hatchetman he *was* a villain, not some tragically misunderstood figure. Course, he lives in a world full of villains.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 04:41:36 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 25, 2011, 04:35:15 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 03:42:38 AM
Gregor, not so much. He's just a monster. Now, Sandor there's some depth to. By far my favourite character in the series.

Thing is, Sandor is set up to look like a bad guy and for most people that's the farthest they will ever look. You don't think, and so you don't see.

Sandor may be one of the most noble characters in the series.

I think it's more a case of Sandor is evolving to be less of a bad guy. I think when he was Tywin's hatchetman he *was* a villain, not some tragically misunderstood figure. Course, he lives in a world full of villains.

I'll admit it's been a while (a decade? times flies) since I read the first book, but I recall the signs being there quite early.

Yes, Sandor kills people and sometimes seems to enjoy doing it, but I think he has a quite clear moral compass and though we haven't been specifically treated to it early on, the signs have certainly been there.

I think one of the big differences between Sandor and some of the more obvious Heroes is that he doesn't have a Beard, so to speak, in Knighthood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 04:43:15 AM
Wow, that episode was fucking powerful. Also, some of the best acting from dogs I have ever seen.  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 25, 2011, 05:00:50 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 04:41:36 AM
Yes, Sandor kills people and sometimes seems to enjoy doing it, but I think he has a quite clear moral compass and though we haven't been specifically treated to it early on, the signs have certainly been there.

A clear moral compass doesn't make one a hero if it's not followed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 05:06:56 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 25, 2011, 05:00:50 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 04:41:36 AM
Yes, Sandor kills people and sometimes seems to enjoy doing it, but I think he has a quite clear moral compass and though we haven't been specifically treated to it early on, the signs have certainly been there.

A clear moral compass doesn't make one a hero if it's not followed.

I don't think anyone is claiming Sandor is a hero - only that he is not a complete villain. He is an anti-hero, like many characters in the books (the Lannister brothers for example).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 05:14:35 AM
Also, I love how noone is questioning that Lannisters would give a commoner a Valyrian knife to kill Bran. It's one of these moments for which I love GRRM - he takes a red herring cliche and essentially dares the reader to cry foul on the meta level only to later show that he is a better writer than that. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 05:42:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 05:14:35 AM
Also, I love how noone is questioning that Lannisters would give a commoner a Valyrian knife to kill Bran. It's one of these moments for which I love GRRM - he takes a red herring cliche and essentially dares the reader to cry foul on the meta level only to later show that he is a better writer than that. :P

I forget, what was the significance of that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 25, 2011, 05:54:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 05:06:56 AM
I don't think anyone is claiming Sandor is a hero -

I interpret Slargos' phrase "more obvious heroes" and his claim that Sandor is one of the noblest characters in the series as  such a claim.  :hmm:

Quoteonly that he is not a complete villain.

Nobody is claiming otherwise. But he has done many villainous acts in his life- the fact that he regretted them afterwards and in some cases during doesn't change that. His inner character may be somewhat consistent; he has the capacity for both good and evil(as all men do really), but his actions in later books are appreciably more "moral" than they are at the beginning. The change in our perceptions isn't so much Martin revealing more of the character(though that is a small part of it) as it is that Sandor is heeding that compass more, trying to redeem himself. Book 1 Sandor is not a heroic figure. Book 5 Sandor may well be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 06:02:27 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 05:42:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 05:14:35 AM
Also, I love how noone is questioning that Lannisters would give a commoner a Valyrian knife to kill Bran. It's one of these moments for which I love GRRM - he takes a red herring cliche and essentially dares the reader to cry foul on the meta level only to later show that he is a better writer than that. :P

I forget, what was the significance of that?

The emo prince sending an assassin so his drunken fool of a cuckold dad thinks he is tough for killing a comatose cripple.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 06:03:40 AM
Obviously, if either Jaime or Cersei (not to mention Tywin or Tyrion) hired an assassin they would make sure it's someone who can do his job.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 06:47:22 AM
The kid who's playing Joffery is a genius. I can't remember the last time I saw a character I wanted to punch in the face so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 25, 2011, 07:17:45 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 25, 2011, 05:54:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 05:06:56 AM
I don't think anyone is claiming Sandor is a hero -

I interpret Slargos' phrase "more obvious heroes" and his claim that Sandor is one of the noblest characters in the series as  such a claim.  :hmm:

Quoteonly that he is not a complete villain.

Nobody is claiming otherwise. But he has done many villainous acts in his life- the fact that he regretted them afterwards and in some cases during doesn't change that. His inner character may be somewhat consistent; he has the capacity for both good and evil(as all men do really), but his actions in later books are appreciably more "moral" than they are at the beginning. The change in our perceptions isn't so much Martin revealing more of the character(though that is a small part of it) as it is that Sandor is heeding that compass more, trying to redeem himself. Book 1 Sandor is not a heroic figure. Book 5 Sandor may well be.

AGREE TO DISAGREE.

By "more obvious Heroes" I meant of course that they are more or less labeled thus by the narrative. They're the knights of the realm. I didn't mean to imply Sandor is a Hero, which he is clearly not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 25, 2011, 07:32:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 06:47:22 AM
The kid who's playing Joffery is a genius. I can't remember the last time I saw a character I wanted to punch in the face so much.
Agreed, he's is doing a great job... the nasty little monster.    :menace:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 25, 2011, 07:37:58 AM
I really like Arya's acting too. Will be interesting to see her character development later on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2011, 07:37:58 AM
I really like Arya's acting too. Will be interesting to see her character development later on.
I thought she was going to murder the Lannisters with her eyes at the end of that trial.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 25, 2011, 07:49:38 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2011, 07:37:58 AM
I really like Arya's acting too. Will be interesting to see her character development later on.
Yep, she's good too.

For her just being a young kid, Arya did become a pretty interesting and resourceful character; I'm waiting to see how she progresses in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2011, 03:28:05 PM
Better than Timmay's version:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fa1ZES.gif&hash=74d2674d6273f4dd5c3e287fe162584919b28b66)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 25, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2011, 05:22:32 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 22, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The real question is how 600 ft of ice remains standing after 14 years (or however much it was)of summer.

I wonder if a 600 ft wall of ice could even support itself.

Probably - employment opportunities are picking up in the Arctic and the pay is good due to difficulties in attracting labor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 25, 2011, 03:53:38 PM
I giggled every time Joffrey got smacked.  I agree that the actor is doing a very good job of making me hate him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 25, 2011, 04:43:38 PM
Joffrey is very Malfoyish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2011, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 18, 2011, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Was his death confirmed or not?
Yes, which rather surprised me.  He was a pretty useful/interesting character to kill off for no apparent reason other than to kill off a character.

The Hounds isn't dead. He's in hiding at the monastery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 26, 2011, 01:23:28 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1cp5H.png&hash=b7e2c224a0ed9c68f4a88f6b3900746472198951)

:lol:

Oh, indeed.

Hey-YO!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2011, 01:26:06 AM
Damn, there are gonna murders if the Red Wedding ever gets filmed.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/domestic-abuse/man-battered-kin-over-hbos-game-thrones-780215
QuoteMeet Michael Podniestrzanski.

The Florida man, 23, was arrested last night after an argument over the new HBO fantasy show "Game of Thrones" turned violent.

As will happen during shows "based on medieval times," Podniestrzanski and his cousin "got into a verbal altercation" over which of the cable program's characters was going to win, according to a Manatee County Sheriff's Office report.

"Game of Thrones," which premiered last Sunday night, is based on the first book in a series of "epic fantasy" novels written by George R.R. Martin.

With the argument between Podniestrzanski and Joshua Ross escalating, Podniestrzanski allegedly "took a swing at" his kin. After scuffling for a bit, Podniestrzanski's cousin "ended up getting thrown in to the front window during the altercation."

Podniestrzanski was arrested for misdemeanor domestic battery and transported to the county jail, where he is currently being held.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 06:16:11 AM
They argued about who was going to win?  :huh:

Littlefinger or Varys, and none of them have appeared yet.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
I don't understand. What's the use of the Horse folks if they never cross the sea?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 06:41:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
I don't understand. What's the use of the Horse folks if they never cross the sea?

They are the token mud people of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 06:42:23 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
I don't understand. What's the use of the Horse folks if they never cross the sea?
Same as the use of the dragons if they never cross the sea; nothing.  One suspects that the plan is to have both dragons and horse folk cross the sea in future books, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:43:46 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 06:42:23 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
I don't understand. What's the use of the Horse folks if they never cross the sea?
Same as the use of the dragons if they never cross the sea; nothing.  One suspects that the plan is to have both dragons and horse folk cross the sea in future books, though.

I see. I understand the story from a book perspective but other then being true to the books HBO should have left that out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 06:46:35 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:43:46 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 06:42:23 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
I don't understand. What's the use of the Horse folks if they never cross the sea?
Same as the use of the dragons if they never cross the sea; nothing.  One suspects that the plan is to have both dragons and horse folk cross the sea in future books, though.

I see. I understand the story from a book perspective but other then being true to the books HBO should have left that out.

The show hasn't said they will never cross the sea. Ned Stark fervently hopes they will never cross, and hopes that if they do they will be defeated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 26, 2011, 06:52:17 AM
Shocking the amount of Westerocentrism being displayed in this thread.  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on April 26, 2011, 07:00:28 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 26, 2011, 06:52:17 AM
Shocking the amount of Westerocentrism being displayed in this thread.  :mad:
I wouldn't want to be some dirt-worshipping heathen when the Others cross the wall. :swearengen:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 07:00:47 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:43:46 AM
I see. I understand the story from a book perspective but other then being true to the books HBO should have left that out.
I don't think they can.  I think it is an essential element of the plot.  I suspect that, without the horse folks element of the story, the TV show will have to have a completely different ending than the books, because I think the horse folks are going to be a key element in the final resolution of the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:14:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 07:00:47 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 06:43:46 AM
I see. I understand the story from a book perspective but other then being true to the books HBO should have left that out.
I don't think they can.  I think it is an essential element of the plot.  I suspect that, without the horse folks element of the story, the TV show will have to have a completely different ending than the books, because I think the horse folks are going to be a key element in the final resolution of the story.

Why would the TV show differ from the books on their treatment of the Dothraki? I just don't see where all this argument is coming from.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2011, 07:18:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

Have you read the books?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:32:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2011, 07:18:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

Have you read the books?

Nope. Just some wiki articles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:32:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2011, 07:18:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

Have you read the books?

Nope. Just some wiki articles.

Then why don't you wait to see what happens?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2011, 07:36:58 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:32:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2011, 07:18:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

Have you read the books?

Nope. Just some wiki articles.

ok then STFU, you can't understand their significance :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Then why don't you wait to see what happens?

I was just asking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 07:45:12 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.usatoday.com%2Flife%2F_photos%2F2004%2F2004-05%2F06-friends-pilot-inside.jpg&hash=b24baa67ceac83adc82c18e575a930b798b4b27f)


"OMG! Why si taht bride suddenli in teh pictur? Shes not getting marrid so wai? Not relevance to stori! This is BS!!!1111"

You will see, you dumb canuckle fuckle, that it's all connected.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:47:56 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Then why don't you wait to see what happens?

I was just asking.

You seemed to be exasperasted and/or complaining about it rather than asking.  :P

Unless I missed it in the 2nd episode, IIRC in the book it is mentiond that they're going inland for some ceremonial purpose at their capital, the Vaes Dothrak village that appears in the opening credits. There's also the tiny aspect of them lacking transport ships across the sea. In the next episode you'll get Viserys (the bleached blonde perv) complaining about the situation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:49:44 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 07:45:12 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.usatoday.com%2Flife%2F_photos%2F2004%2F2004-05%2F06-friends-pilot-inside.jpg&hash=b24baa67ceac83adc82c18e575a930b798b4b27f)


"OMG! Why si taht bride suddenli in teh pictur? Shes not getting marrid so wai? Not relevance to stori! This is BS!!!1111"

You will see, you dumb canuckle fuckle, that it's all connected.

:lol: I'm not sorry for not trusting Writers to do a good job & stick to their stories.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:52:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:47:56 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Then why don't you wait to see what happens?

I was just asking.
You seemed to be exasperasted and/or complaining about it rather than asking.  :P


A little yes. You guys tell me it will lead somewhere & that's fine but so far it seems to only serve to take screen time away from what appears to be more interesting things, like Tyrion, Jon Snow & Ned. That & Emilia Clarke boobies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:57:28 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:52:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:47:56 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Then why don't you wait to see what happens?

I was just asking.
You seemed to be exasperasted and/or complaining about it rather than asking.  :P


A little yes. You guys tell me it will lead somewhere & that's fine but so far it seems to only serve to take screen time away from what appears to be more interesting things, like Tyrion, Jon Snow & Ned. That & Emilia Clarke boobies.

This is a series where it pays off to be patient. Events will unfold.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:58:15 AM
CGI Dragon better be cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 08:02:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.

I see your point, and I really liked how Feist and Wurts dealt with this for the Riftwar Cycle..

Personally, I don't have a problem with it, even if I definitely felt at points that the Dothraki storyline was a bit weak.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.
I don't mind this happening once, or even twice.  The problem I have with the books is that it happens about 20 times, and most of those story lines will be meaningless in the final resolution of the story.  If Dani dies half-way through book 5, then GF will have grounds for his complaint.  Some characters have already died in the books, and had they never been POV characters the books wouldn't be at all different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 08:09:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.
I don't mind this happening once, or even twice.  The problem I have with the books is that it happens about 20 times, and most of those story lines will be meaningless in the final resolution of the story.  If Dani dies half-way through book 5, then GF will have grounds for his complaint.  Some characters have already died in the books, and had they never been POV characters the books wouldn't be at all different.

Isn't the entire point of a story to be emotionally engaging, though? Sure, the story could be written from a historian's perspective and there wouldn't be a need for POV at all, but how interesting would that be to read?

Is the entire Dothraki line a red herring? If so, I say well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 26, 2011, 08:15:55 AM
Needs moar David Weber style infodumps.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 26, 2011, 08:21:41 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:52:21 AM
A little yes. You guys tell me it will lead somewhere & that's fine but so far it seems to only serve to take screen time away from what appears to be more interesting things, like Tyrion, Jon Snow & Ned. That & Emilia Clarke boobies.

You realize that Emilia Clarke boobies are connected to the horse folks?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:22:49 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 08:09:26 AM
Isn't the entire point of a story to be emotionally engaging, though?
Yes.  That's exactly my point.  There are so many characters, and their stories are so broken up, that it is difficult to identify with any of them.  Identification is the key to emotional engagement.

QuoteSure, the story could be written from a historian's perspective and there wouldn't be a need for POV at all, but how interesting would that be to read?
:x I recommend that you not write like this if you decide to write a novel.  Sounds like a horrible idea.  You can do appendices like that, though.  Tolkien did that, and so does Martin.  I'd restrict myself to appendices with your proposed style, were I you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 26, 2011, 08:25:37 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:22:49 AM
:x I recommend that you not write like this if you decide to write a novel.  Sounds like a horrible idea.  You can do appendices like that, though.  Tolkien did that, and so does Martin.  I'd restrict myself to appendices with your proposed style, were I you.

I just had a Fitzpatrick's War flashback. Thanks.  :yuk: :yucky:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 08:28:03 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:22:49 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 08:09:26 AM
Isn't the entire point of a story to be emotionally engaging, though?
Yes.  That's exactly my point.  There are so many characters, and their stories are so broken up, that it is difficult to identify with any of them.  Identification is the key to emotional engagement.

QuoteSure, the story could be written from a historian's perspective and there wouldn't be a need for POV at all, but how interesting would that be to read?
:x I recommend that you not write like this if you decide to write a novel.  Sounds like a horrible idea.  You can do appendices like that, though.  Tolkien did that, and so does Martin.  I'd restrict myself to appendices with your proposed style, were I you.

I see your point.

I've never had a problem with empathy so I don't need as coherent a story as perhaps you do. But I see your point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:34:00 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 26, 2011, 08:25:37 AM
I just had a Fitzpatrick's War flashback. Thanks.  :yuk: :yucky:
I know I started that book and thought it dreadful, but nothing stayed with me.  Sorry if I opened an old wound.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:22:49 AM
Yes.  That's exactly my point.  There are so many characters, and their stories are so broken up, that it is difficult to identify with any of them.  Identification is the key to emotional engagement.

it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 01:50:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 08:22:49 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 08:09:26 AM
Isn't the entire point of a story to be emotionally engaging, though?
Yes.  That's exactly my point.  There are so many characters, and their stories are so broken up, that it is difficult to identify with any of them.  Identification is the key to emotional engagement.

QuoteSure, the story could be written from a historian's perspective and there wouldn't be a need for POV at all, but how interesting would that be to read?
:x I recommend that you not write like this if you decide to write a novel.  Sounds like a horrible idea.  You can do appendices like that, though.  Tolkien did that, and so does Martin.  I'd restrict myself to appendices with your proposed style, were I you.

Sobel did that in "For Want of a Nail".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.

A more dedicated writer could probably easily do two or perhaps even three separate concurrent series with a common tie in to finish them all. Has it been done? Would it work? I think it might be an interesting read.

The thing I most enjoy about Erikson is how each of his books is more or less a self-contained work, and despite having a legion of characters, the individual books are more focused on a separate arc while also maintaining the grand scheme through the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.

It's better than a horrible Deus Ex Machina that would have happened if she suddenly appeared out of nowhere, at the head of a dragon/Mongol army, to save Westeros from the Others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.

A more dedicated writer could probably easily do two or perhaps even three separate concurrent series with a common tie in to finish them all. Has it been done? Would it work? I think it might be an interesting read.

The thing I most enjoy about Erikson is how each of his books is more or less a self-contained work, and despite having a legion of characters, the individual books are more focused on a separate arc while also maintaining the grand scheme through the series.

You are making a mistake there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 03:19:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.

A more dedicated writer could probably easily do two or perhaps even three separate concurrent series with a common tie in to finish them all. Has it been done? Would it work? I think it might be an interesting read.

The thing I most enjoy about Erikson is how each of his books is more or less a self-contained work, and despite having a legion of characters, the individual books are more focused on a separate arc while also maintaining the grand scheme through the series.

You are making a mistake there.

:lol:

In talking to grumbler? Or relating things I enjoy in story telling?

I know you don't mean the enjoyment itself, because it would be morbidly stupid to call that a mistake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on April 26, 2011, 03:24:29 PM
I like Martin's frequent shifts of perspective and character.   Yeah sometimes it can be frustrating when the chapter suddenly ends before an important development, but ultimately it keeps the reader's perspective broad and aware of developments in what is supposed to be a dynastic civil war of enormous complexity.  It's also lends for a lot of interesting contrast between how characters are viewed by others vs. how they see themselves.  And, it lends more room for speculation and imigination (which, given the lengthy time delays between books is almost a must.   :P)

The problem is that a few characters just aren't that interesting.  Brienne is an infamous example of this.  Although as it happens, I rather enjoy the Daneryes sub-plot, even though up til now it has had little bearing on the main chain of events.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 26, 2011, 03:24:29 PM
I like Martin's frequent shifts of perspective and character.   Yeah sometimes it can be frustrating when the chapter suddenly ends before an important development, but ultimately it keeps the reader's perspective broad and aware of developments in what is supposed to be a dynastic civil war of enormous complexity.  It's also lends for a lot of interesting contrast between how characters are viewed by others vs. how they see themselves.  And, it lends more room for speculation and imigination (which, given the lengthy time delays between books is almost a must.   :P )

The problem is that a few characters just aren't that interesting.  Brienne is an infamous example of this.  Although as it happens, I rather enjoy the Daneryes sub-plot, even though up til now it has had little bearing on the main chain of events.

Slashing a bunch of characters from POV might make the story more streamlined, but single (or few)-protagonist fantasy books are thirty in a dozen, and I certainly agree that the many viewpoints we're served makes for a broader experience of the war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 03:19:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.

A more dedicated writer could probably easily do two or perhaps even three separate concurrent series with a common tie in to finish them all. Has it been done? Would it work? I think it might be an interesting read.

The thing I most enjoy about Erikson is how each of his books is more or less a self-contained work, and despite having a legion of characters, the individual books are more focused on a separate arc while also maintaining the grand scheme through the series.

You are making a mistake there.

:lol:

In talking to grumbler? Or relating things I enjoy in story telling?

The former. :P

More so than normally, too. His posts seem to imply that the kind of writing he enjoys is "good writing", and stuff he dislikes about the SOIAF series (which, for example for me, is what sold me on the books) is "bad writing". It's rather pointless to engage him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 03:19:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 26, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
it may come down to perspective. i didn't have a problem with it, as the characters seemed to be jointly connected in some fashion by the bigger picture(tm). theon's pov, for example, helped build up the greyjoys' later interest in the events so they didn't just appear as some random force. and i loved both dorne and the new krakens even if the fourth book wasn't exactly a masterpiece
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.

A more dedicated writer could probably easily do two or perhaps even three separate concurrent series with a common tie in to finish them all. Has it been done? Would it work? I think it might be an interesting read.

The thing I most enjoy about Erikson is how each of his books is more or less a self-contained work, and despite having a legion of characters, the individual books are more focused on a separate arc while also maintaining the grand scheme through the series.

You are making a mistake there.

:lol:

In talking to grumbler? Or relating things I enjoy in story telling?

The former. :P

More so than normally, too. His posts seem to imply that the kind of writing he enjoys is "good writing", and stuff he dislikes about the SOIAF series (which, for example for me, is what sold me on the books) is "bad writing". It's rather pointless to engage him.

Oh. What can I say.. I may sometimes come across as a misantropic pessimist, but in my heart I am an inveterate optimist, and even though my exchanges with grumbler are usually not very constructive or pleasant, I recognize that from time to time he's able to switch off the rabid little bitch act he's got going.

It never hurts to keep trying to have a civil conversation.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.

It's better than a horrible Deus Ex Machina that would have happened if she suddenly appeared out of nowhere, at the head of a dragon/Mongol army, to save Westeros from the Others.

I imagine a decent author could figure something out between those two extremes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 26, 2011, 04:07:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
I am not sure perspective is what it comes down to, so much as taste.  I like stories that tell stories - tales that seem to have been hammered out of the iron and dross that constitutes the first draft.  I can read fan fiction for the kinds of wandering, self-indulgent, publish-the-first-draft kinds of writing we get from later martin, and even the self-indulgent "let me try to make people like this character before i kill them" that constitutes the first half of the sage.  Eddard, yes.  Probably should have been done for King Robert.  But we didn't need the stories of all the characters (with more to come!), IMO.  The story can be told with a third the characters, and told better (I feel).  It isn't bad as is, mind you.  It is quite good.  But a lot of what is in the books should be, IMO, published as short stories, or on the web or via comics or other media.

you're right, i should have said taste--i thought about that in class as the professor rambled on  :D

-spoiler below-
i like how the events are fleshed out by presenting points of view that may as well be fluff. more parts of the world are explored, shown instead of told, by the characters. without theon, davos, etc, i don't think many of the battles, betrayals, actions, diplomacy, and so forth across westeros would have as much impact to the audience. the story also changed throughout the course of the series for the readers. the whole of the first book essentially tries to mask what the series is about, with everything leading up to the fatal execution of ned and the birth of the dragons. in a quick stroke the story expanded beyond its previous scope, and the povs/soon-to-be povs support it. it's sloppy in places, no doubt, but overall i think it achieves its purpose
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on April 26, 2011, 07:40:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 26, 2011, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2011, 07:15:47 AM
Because if they don't interact with Westeros, who gives a shit?

That's my argument.

This was a beef I had with the books.  You have these people on the other side of the world who have little effect on the rest of the story line.  I assume that toward the end several heroes will migrate to the Dragon queen chick and help her as she restores her throne.  Still, it's like having a novel about the Teutonic crusaders but some chapters are devoted to young Genghis Khan.  Sure he'll make an impact on the other characters, it just happens about 7,000 pages down the line.

It's better than a horrible Deus Ex Machina that would have happened if she suddenly appeared out of nowhere, at the head of a dragon/Mongol army, to save Westeros from the Others.
I remain unconvinced that Westeros is worth saving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 27, 2011, 05:37:18 PM
It's finished!

A Dance with Dragons is finished! :o :o :o

http://grrm.livejournal.com/212603.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 27, 2011, 06:15:45 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 27, 2011, 06:16:45 PM
I'm still bothered by the fact that Mr. Martin owns the same type of hat as I do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 27, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
I'm now firmly convinced that they waited to make this series until they had a dwarf that could play Tyrion.


in other news... is there anybody who has read the books that has any doubt about who Jon Snows parents are. I feel very sure about who they are now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 27, 2011, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 27, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
I'm now firmly convinced that they waited to make this series until they had a dwarf that could play Tyrion.


in other news... is there anybody who has read the books that has any doubt about who Jon Snows parents are. I feel very sure about who they are now.
No. It seems pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 27, 2011, 07:56:47 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 27, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
I'm now firmly convinced that they waited to make this series until they had a dwarf that could play Tyrion.

Dinklage is in his 40s and has been acting for decades.  Why would they have to wait?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 27, 2011, 08:44:24 PM
Ratings for Episode 2 were the same, despite the fact that it was Easter and the 1st episode was shown while lots of cable providers were giving a free week of HBO. Very good sign. :)

http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/04/very-promising-ratings-for-episode-two/#comments
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 12:40:42 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 27, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
I'm now firmly convinced that they waited to make this series until they had a dwarf that could play Tyrion.


in other news... is there anybody who has read the books that has any doubt about who Jon Snows parents are. I feel very sure about who they are now.

Well. Sure. But consider this: Martin would love to fuck with us and you're probably wrong. All we have are second hand accounts and why should one be more valid than another?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:27:01 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 27, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
in other news... is there anybody who has read the books that has any doubt about who Jon Snows parents are. I feel very sure about who they are now.

I think most people who read the books have no clue. Unless they read the books several times and/or discuss it with others (whether online or in real life), most people would not catch all the hints at the first reading. Just look at a number of people who were astounded when they found out Renly and Loras were lovers - whereas the hints are dropped all over the books, much more heavily than when it comes to Jon's parentage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 01:40:33 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.

Disagree. Hint is too weak a word for the way this information is released to the reader. He more or less says it outright.

It doesn't come as any surprise, however, that a lot of people can't deal with that level of subtlety.

Sandor is alive. Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. She eloped, she was not raped. Renly fucked Loras with gusto.

It. Is. Known. And did not take two readings.

Now, Martin could pull a rabbit out of a hat and turn 180 but it would be a cheap ploy. But then, he is the master of cheap ploys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:44:44 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.

It is obvious to anyone who has read the books and is not a moron. And Martin confirmed it in several interviews.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:46:22 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 01:40:33 AM
Sandor is alive. Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. She eloped, she was not raped. Renly fucked Loras with gusto.

Speaking of which, I want a t-shirt with this printed on. And "Red Wedding is a trap", "Ned gets beheaded", "Tyrion kills Tywin" etc. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 01:51:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:46:22 AM


Speaking of which,

I guess there's ample call for a spoiler tag.  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2011, 01:57:06 AM
Yeah thanks you asses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:04:04 AM
Incidentally, I hate how many people view Cersei as this evil monster. Her fate was not better than that of Danny, traded off like a chattel to cement an alliance - only further aggravated by the fact that she already loved someone else at the time and her husband cried out another woman's name on their wedding night - and then proceeded to fuck every whore or wench he would lay his hands on, often in front of her.

Is there any surprise she hates his guts and wants him dead?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:05:44 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2011, 01:57:06 AM
Yeah thanks you asses.

We need a spoiler tag function. White doesn't cut it anymore since the background is slightly offwhite makign the text visible.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:10:15 AM
Well, sorry I assumed that most/all people here read the books. We have been discussing the background quite clearly in my impression - it always weirds me out when there is a 20-pages discussion of some book and film and then suddenly someone cries foul over spoilers.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:15:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:10:15 AM
Well, sorry I assumed that most/all people here read the books. We have been discussing the background quite clearly in my impression - it always weirds me out when there is a 20-pages discussion of some book and film and then suddenly someone cries foul over spoilers.  :huh:

Agree and Disagree.

Yes, it would be convenient to be able to have a discussion about a book or a series without having to tenderize it for the consumption of the laggers. OTOH, especially in a case like this where the show trails the books by a decade, it is certainly convenient to be able to discuss the show without ruining it for those illiterates who haven't read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2011, 02:21:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:10:15 AM
Well, sorry I assumed that most/all people here read the books. We have been discussing the background quite clearly in my impression - it always weirds me out when there is a 20-pages discussion of some book and film and then suddenly someone cries foul over spoilers.  :huh:

Oh i think most have.

My book reading is kept to non Fiction mostly.
Most current fantasy/sci fi bores me to tears.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2011, 02:22:46 AM
QuoteI hate that people view Cersei as this evil monster because she hates Robert Baratheon

What nonsense is this, maybe it's because she's a cold hearted bitch, i mean sure that's why you like her Marti. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:26:25 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2011, 02:22:46 AM
QuoteI hate that people view Cersei as this evil monster because she hates Robert Baratheon

What nonsense is this, maybe it's because she's a cold hearted bitch, i mean sure that's why you like her Marti. :P

I was going to reply much the same only using more words to describe her crimes but frankly in this case less is more. Well done.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:34:06 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:26:25 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2011, 02:22:46 AM
QuoteI hate that people view Cersei as this evil monster because she hates Robert Baratheon

What nonsense is this, maybe it's because she's a cold hearted bitch, i mean sure that's why you like her Marti. :P

I was going to reply much the same only using more words to describe her crimes but frankly in this case less is more. Well done.  :D

Well, her crimes are largely based in self-preservation and protecting her children. If the truth was out, then not only hers, but also her children's lifes would be forfeit. She is a vicious, ruthless momma-bear protecting her cubs, nothing more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:38:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:34:06 AM

Well, her crimes are largely based in self-preservation and protecting her children. If the truth was out, then not only hers, but also her children's lifes would be forfeit. She is a vicious, ruthless momma-bear protecting her cubs, nothing more.

No argument there. I can sympathise with the rationalisation. It is perhaps the most genuine motivation there is.

I still don't like her, any more than I do her brother even after his about-heel. The Lannisters are all pricks, save for the midget.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:40:26 AM
To elaborate (SPOILERS).

Her "original crime" is incest. However, genetic issues aside (which are not that severe to begin with), unless there is an element of coercion involved, I don't see how this should be seen as wrong or sinful, not to mention criminal - especially between twin siblings (if there was an age difference a better argument could be made for coercion, but not here).

Then is her crime of "cheating" on her husband. Only that she has no say in her marriage, her husband cries out a different woman's name on their wedding night, while he drunkenly fucks her, and then cheats on her openly anywhere he can. Hardly a crime at all.

Now, the problem is that both of the above non-crimes unfortunately mean that in the oppressive society in which she lives, she and her brother and their children would be dead if the truth was out.

So all her subsequent crimes are based in making sure this truth is not out. So essentially it is self-defense.

If a secret Jew during Holocaust kills someone who threatens to out him and his family to the nazis, would you call this a crime too?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:42:42 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:38:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:34:06 AM

Well, her crimes are largely based in self-preservation and protecting her children. If the truth was out, then not only hers, but also her children's lifes would be forfeit. She is a vicious, ruthless momma-bear protecting her cubs, nothing more.

No argument there. I can sympathise with the rationalisation. It is perhaps the most genuine motivation there is.

I still don't like her, any more than I do her brother even after his about-heel. The Lannisters are all pricks, save for the midget.

Again, she is ruthless, she is a strong woman and yes, she is warped by her experiences. I kinda have admiration for her, even if I don't like her too much either. But then if anyone who I don't like was a "monster", half of Languish would be monsters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:46:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:40:26 AM
To elaborate (SPOILERS).

Her "original crime" is incest. However, genetic issues aside (which are not that severe to begin with), unless there is an element of coercion involved, I don't see how this should be seen as wrong or sinful, not to mention criminal - especially between twin siblings (if there was an age difference a better argument could be made for coercion, but not here).

Then is her crime of "cheating" on her husband. Only that she has no say in her marriage, her husband cries out a different woman's name on their wedding night, while he drunkenly fucks her, and then cheats on her openly anywhere he can. Hardly a crime at all.

Now, the problem is that both of the above non-crimes unfortunately mean that in the oppressive society in which she lives, she and her brother and their children would be dead if the truth was out.

So all her subsequent crimes are based in making sure this truth is not out. So essentially it is self-defense.

If a secret Jew during Holocaust kills someone who threatens to out him and his family to the nazis, would you call this a crime too?

:hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 28, 2011, 02:51:00 AM
 :lol: Marti analogies are always so fun to read.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:56:28 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 28, 2011, 02:51:00 AM
:lol: Marti analogies are always so fun to read.

I thought this one was more or less spot on. The situations are more or less completely analogous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 28, 2011, 03:00:08 AM
Must be a hell of a lot more that adds to her character than what I've read in the books so far, what he wrote, and what the tv has shown.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 03:02:21 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 28, 2011, 03:00:08 AM
Must be a hell of a lot more that adds to her character than what I've read in the books so far, what he wrote, and what the tv has shown.

How far have you come?
Are you aware that Robert's children are actually Jaime's children? Do you realize that the revelation would get them all beheaded?

What really makes their situation different from a jew hiding in nazi germany?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 28, 2011, 03:04:07 AM
Not that far, but I still think it's one hell of a stretch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 03:07:39 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 28, 2011, 03:04:07 AM
Not that far, but I still think it's one hell of a stretch.

Your powers of reasoning are debilitated by having it knocked into your head your whole life that the jews are special and that nothing can ever compare to the Holocaust(tm) no matter how relevant the comparison.

Of course, Marty also used the analogy for the same reason so I guess there are no real Winners here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 03:26:44 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 03:07:39 AMso I guess there are no real Winners here.
Wrong.  :secret:  :Joos
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 03:45:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:44:44 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.

It is obvious to anyone who has read the books and is not a moron. And Martin confirmed it in several interviews.

I've read the books 2-3 times, and yeah the hints are there. I dont scour the web for interviews about who might or might not be a fag though.

My bad.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 03:47:30 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 03:45:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:44:44 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.

It is obvious to anyone who has read the books and is not a moron. And Martin confirmed it in several interviews.

I've read the books 2-3 times, and yeah the hints are there. I dont scour the web for interviews about who might or might not be a fag though.

My bad.  :rolleyes:

Alternatively you're simply not very perceptive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 03:52:52 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 03:47:30 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 03:45:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:44:44 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.

It is obvious to anyone who has read the books and is not a moron. And Martin confirmed it in several interviews.

I've read the books 2-3 times, and yeah the hints are there. I dont scour the web for interviews about who might or might not be a fag though.

My bad.  :rolleyes:

Alternatively you're simply not very perceptive.

Not really. It was just a passing thought at one point. "Jeez, I wonder if Loras and Renly got it on". Then I moved on.  :mellow:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2011, 03:58:53 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 27, 2011, 07:56:47 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 27, 2011, 07:32:35 PM
I'm now firmly convinced that they waited to make this series until they had a dwarf that could play Tyrion.

Dinklage is in his 40s and has been acting for decades.  Why would they have to wait?

To discover that the man is an actor who happens to be a dwarf (or whatever the present pc term is).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2011, 04:09:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:40:26 AM
To elaborate (SPOILERS).

Her "original crime" is incest. However, genetic issues aside (which are not that severe to begin with), unless there is an element of coercion involved, I don't see how this should be seen as wrong or sinful, not to mention criminal - especially between twin siblings (if there was an age difference a better argument could be made for coercion, but not here).

Then is her crime of "cheating" on her husband. Only that she has no say in her marriage, her husband cries out a different woman's name on their wedding night, while he drunkenly fucks her, and then cheats on her openly anywhere he can. Hardly a crime at all.

Now, the problem is that both of the above non-crimes unfortunately mean that in the oppressive society in which she lives, she and her brother and their children would be dead if the truth was out.

So all her subsequent crimes are based in making sure this truth is not out. So essentially it is self-defense.

If a secret Jew during Holocaust kills someone who threatens to out him and his family to the nazis, would you call this a crime too?

I thought her original crime was murdering her first (trueborn) son?

giving that we are raping any semblance of respect for spoilers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2011, 04:19:07 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:05:44 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2011, 01:57:06 AM
Yeah thanks you asses.

We need a spoiler tag function. White doesn't cut it anymore since the background is slightly offwhite makign the text visible.  :hmm:

What with that door blasted right open, I can speculate wildly.. so....

- Rhaegar and Llyanna married before dying - > Jon Snow is the rightful king, hooks up with sexbot dany before end to have dothraki horde destroy the white walkers before restoring order and ending the book series.

slargos - you shouldn't have spoiled it, even in off white
polish mary - you shouldn't have quoted a spoiler, even in off white, I missed it (despite knowing the contents)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 05:56:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2011, 04:19:07 AM
Quote from: Slargos on April 28, 2011, 02:05:44 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2011, 01:57:06 AM
Yeah thanks you asses.

We need a spoiler tag function. White doesn't cut it anymore since the background is slightly offwhite makign the text visible.  :hmm:

What with that door blasted right open, I can speculate wildly.. so....



Well. You really have to want to look in order to read that white-on-lighter-shade-of-light-blue-or-whatever-it-is so it does the job somewhat.

As for your speculations, it would possibly be too neat. An ending we can see coming? No way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 28, 2011, 06:33:13 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 03:45:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 01:44:44 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 28, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
What do you mean when people found out about Renly and Loras? Martin didnt write anything specific. Just hints that could mean something, or not. Just like Jon's parents.

It is obvious to anyone who has read the books and is not a moron. And Martin confirmed it in several interviews.

I've read the books 2-3 times, and yeah the hints are there. I dont scour the web for interviews about who might or might not be a fag though.

My bad.  :rolleyes:

I like the fact that the motivations of one of the main characters is one of those "little details" to Marty, but hints at homosexuality amongst two secondary characters "obvious" and should be remembered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 06:38:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2011, 04:19:07 AM
- Rhaegar and Llyanna married before dying - > Jon Snow is the rightful king, hooks up with sexbot dany before end to have dothraki horde destroy the white walkers before restoring order and ending the book series. 
Yep.  The idea that Martin has a secret brilliant ending that he is leading up to seems far-fetched to me.  The fact that it takes him half a decade to write each book tells me that he doesn't know where he is going.  In the end, I think he will settle for this d.e.m.-type solution, because it is easiest.

And I enjoy the boasting of people that they could see the subtexts all along and that anybody who did not is a moron.  :lol:  It is pretty clear in this case what is moronic: spending so much lifespan on this and getting so ego-involved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2011, 06:39:50 AM
He'll probally go and come out with 'Jon Snow really is Ned's bastard. You're all over-thinking fools. :p'
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 28, 2011, 07:02:45 AM
I think he'll die first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 28, 2011, 07:06:17 AM
I loved how in the second episode, when Jon was leaving for the Wall and Eddard for King's Landing and they were saying farewell, Eddard told Jon kinda warmly "When we meet after I come back we'll talk about your mother". Everybody who read the books must have been thinking "Yeeeeeeeah, right".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 28, 2011, 07:09:57 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 06:38:31 AM
Yep.  The idea that Martin has a secret brilliant ending that he is leading up to seems far-fetched to me.  The fact that it takes him half a decade to write each book tells me that he doesn't know where he is going.  In the end, I think he will settle for this d.e.m.-type solution, because it is easiest.

The hope is that he does know where he is going, just not how to get there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 07:38:59 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 28, 2011, 07:09:57 AM

The hope is that he does know where he is going, just not how to get there.
When the Martintards were the BSGtards, they said the same thing.  Fool me twice, shame on me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 28, 2011, 09:00:14 AM
Jon is clearly the son of Aerys and Lyanna, and Tyrion is the son of Aerys and Tywin's wife (I forget her name). Thus Dany will marry both of them, repeating the situation of Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters, only gender-swapped. :smarty:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 28, 2011, 09:21:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 07:38:59 AM
When the Martintards were the BSGtards, they said the same thing.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

It's not a mystery series, the quality of the works he's already published isn't contingent on how well he ties up loose ends.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 28, 2011, 09:40:25 AM
If you want some references for the different theories regarding Jon Snow's parents, at "The Tower of the Hand", the most authoritative site about the series, they have this:

http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html (http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html)

There's a whole section of misteries and explanations for them:

http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/index.html (http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/index.html)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 28, 2011, 11:27:09 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 28, 2011, 07:06:17 AM
I loved how in the second episode, when Jon was leaving for the Wall and Eddard for King's Landing and they were saying farewell, Eddard told Jon kinda warmly "When we meet after I come back we'll talk about your mother". Everybody who read the books must have been thinking "Yeeeeeeeah, right".

Yeah that was cute.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 28, 2011, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:40:26 AMIf a secret Jew during Holocaust kills someone who threatens to out him and his family to the nazis, would you call this a crime too?

or if a grallon smothered a child because the boy witnessed him fuck his younger brother

  :yes: all three scenarios morally equivalent
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 28, 2011, 12:26:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2011, 02:40:26 AM
To elaborate (SPOILERS).

(...)

So all her subsequent crimes are based in making sure this truth is not out. So essentially it is self-defense.

Killing newborn babies out of spite for her husband is cool in your book, then.  :P What about purposedfully raising a borderline psychopathic son with no empathy whatsoever by encouraging him to embody all the worse personality traits conceivable? Cool as well? Despising your own brother for no apparent reason than a witch's vision is cool too? Endlessly plotting against perceived enemies out of irrational fear and an overbearing prideful personality is cool as well? Estranging allies, friends and family in favour of ass-lickers and social climbers?

Very little of that had to do with self-defense and much to do with her being, so to speak, a bitch.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 12:40:04 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 28, 2011, 12:26:45 PM
Killing newborn babies out of spite for her husband is cool in your book, then.  :P What about purposedfully raising a borderline psychopathic son with no empathy whatsoever by encouraging him to embody all the worse personality traits conceivable? Cool as well? Despising your own brother for no apparent reason than a witch's vision is cool too? Endlessly plotting against perceived enemies out of irrational fear and an overbearing prideful personality is cool as well? Estranging allies, friends and family in favour of ass-lickers and social climbers?

Very little of that had to do with self-defense and much to do with her being, so to speak, a bitch.  ;)
Yes, but the latter is probably what makes her such a hero to Marti.  Birds of a feather and all that.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2011, 12:51:41 PM
What I just don't get is if Jon is Lyanna's kid why doesn't Ned tell his wife. It would save her and the kid a lot of grief and if she can't be trusted...well who can.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 28, 2011, 12:53:56 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 28, 2011, 12:26:45 PMVery little of that had to do with self-defense and much to do with her being, so to speak, a bitch.  ;)

seriously, would a nicer or less evil person in her shoes do all that she did? the answer is of course not
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 28, 2011, 01:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 28, 2011, 12:51:41 PM
What I just don't get is if Jon is Lyanna's kid why doesn't Ned tell his wife. It would save her and the kid a lot of grief and if she can't be trusted...well who can.

He promised Lyanna he would not tell anybody.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 28, 2011, 01:49:24 PM
The discussion of where the plot is going and if will ever be wrapped up in a legitimate manner reminds me of the old Lost discussions.  Or the BSG discussions as Grumbler mentioned.  Hod willing, this one actually works out.  Or, at the least, works out better than those two.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 01:56:15 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 28, 2011, 01:49:24 PM
The discussion of where the plot is going and if will ever be wrapped up in a legitimate manner reminds me of the old Lost discussions.  Or the BSG discussions as Grumbler mentioned.  Hod willing, this one actually works out.  Or, at the least, works out better than those two.
Yes.  I may not be happy with the latest turns in martin's writing style, but no one here would be happier than me to see the story end well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:11:54 PM
Well unlike those shows it is pretty clear that Martin has an overall direction and plotline in mind.  So I doubt very much the ending will be a trainwreck.

It may only be 'so-so', but he will arrive at a coherent climax.

If he finishes it at all that is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
Isn't Dragons supposed to be the last book? It is finished.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
Isn't Dragons supposed to be the last book? It is finished.

:console:

It's a planned 7 book series.

Next two books are The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2011, 02:23:17 PM
Which will probally be split again into 2 each.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:22:38 PM

:console:

It's a planned 7 book series.

Next two books are The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.
if so, plans have changed. Dragons and Crows were originally supposed to be one book, and I was pretty sure it was supposed to be the last one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:31:48 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:22:38 PM

:console:

It's a planned 7 book series.

Next two books are The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.
if so, plans have changed. Dragons and Crows were originally supposed to be one book, and I was pretty sure it was supposed to be the last one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_song_of_ice_and_fire

Plans have changed many times, but I don't think Dragions was ever designed to be the last book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 28, 2011, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:25:04 PM
if so, plans have changed. Dragons and Crows were originally supposed to be one book, and I was pretty sure it was supposed to be the last one.

Where did you hear this?  Originally there were supposed to be two books after Dragons.  GRRM just inserted another book in there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:37:35 PM
Ok, must have been wrong. That being the case I agree it won't likely get finished. His progress seems to be flattening out asymptotically.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 28, 2011, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:37:35 PM
Ok, must have been wrong. That being the case I agree it won't likely get finished. His progress seems to be flattening out asymptotically.

It is certainly is a possibility.  I think there is too much financial pressure with the HBO series to state for sure that it is more likely to not be finished than finished (after all he is supposedly 5/7s of the way there) but I would not be shocked either way.

At least he finished this one eh?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 28, 2011, 03:47:51 PM
I wonder if the HBO series will finish one way and the books another.  That is if they go for like seven seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 28, 2011, 05:31:05 PM
Assuming that the show goes on for that long (unlikely, but I can be hopeful), I believe that HBO, if they "catch up" to Martin's current writing, will actually finish the show however they please, albeit with advice from Martin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 05:34:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:11:54 PM
Well unlike those shows it is pretty clear that Martin has an overall direction and plotline in mind.  So I doubt very much the ending will be a trainwreck.
Gee, where have I heard this before? :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 28, 2011, 05:37:03 PM
Well, my DVR bricked itself this weekend. Just in time.  <_<

Hopefully there will be reruns galore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2011, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 28, 2011, 03:47:51 PM
I wonder if the HBO series will finish one way and the books another.  That is if they go for like seven seasons.
That's an interesting question, and an equally interesting one is whether HBO has a better chance of finishing the series before cancellation than GRRM has of finishing before he is cancelled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2011, 05:52:54 PM
Doubt they would finish it differently.
Assuming GoT is a big success and looks set to go on forever but George takes another 5 years for the next book (not so sure future ones will be as slow) then they'll probally just start stretching things out a lot. Having two series for Dance instead of one for instance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2011, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 28, 2011, 05:37:03 PM
Well, my DVR bricked itself this weekend. Just in time.  <_<

Hopefully there will be reruns galore.
of course there will.
It's hbo and if you have on demand through your cable should be able to watch it through that, and hbo is starting new online service that subscribers can watch any episode from their series. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 28, 2011, 06:10:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2011, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
Isn't Dragons supposed to be the last book? It is finished.

:console:

It's a planned 7 book series.

Next two books are The Winds of Winter
The original title A Time for Wolves was much cooler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 28, 2011, 06:11:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2011, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 28, 2011, 02:37:35 PM
Ok, must have been wrong. That being the case I agree it won't likely get finished. His progress seems to be flattening out asymptotically.

It is certainly is a possibility.  I think there is too much financial pressure with the HBO series to state for sure that it is more likely to not be finished than finished (after all he is supposedly 5/7s of the way there) but I would not be shocked either way.

At least he finished this one eh?
From what I hear online, apparently his editor forced him to come down to her office and work. If this continues, there's hope. 

EDIT: Here's the editor showing off the manuscript

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucagf1wt3Ic&feature=player_embedded#at=28
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 28, 2011, 06:37:59 PM
Should I pay the 20 bucks for HBO?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 28, 2011, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2011, 06:37:59 PM
Should I pay the 20 bucks for HBO?

No, it's full of fat people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 29, 2011, 10:13:02 AM
Am re-reading the books... In the first bran chapter, the scene with the dead dire wolf.

- The mother direwolf was killed by an antler (presumably from a deer). The Stark sigil was killed by the Baratheon sigil.
- The albino direwolf representing Jon Snow has the hair of the Targaryens.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2011, 10:29:30 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2011, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 28, 2011, 05:37:03 PM
Well, my DVR bricked itself this weekend. Just in time.  <_<

Hopefully there will be reruns galore.
of course there will.
It's hbo and if you have on demand through your cable should be able to watch it through that, and hbo is starting new online service that subscribers can watch any episode from their series.

I watched it last night on demand.  :)

ATT replaced the DVR. New one has a bigger disk. yay
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2011, 08:43:38 PM
Awesome metal version of the Intro music! :punk:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 01, 2011, 03:27:27 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 29, 2011, 10:13:02 AM
Am re-reading the books... In the first bran chapter, the scene with the dead dire wolf.

- The mother direwolf was killed by an antler (presumably from a deer). The Stark sigil was killed by the Baratheon sigil.
- The albino direwolf representing Jon Snow has the hair of the Targaryens.





Is this final proof that Jon Snow is the son of that dude, the older brother of the girl with the 3 dragons?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Not brother, father of the girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 07:52:53 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Not brother, father of the girl.
Brother :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 01, 2011, 08:10:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 07:52:53 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Not brother, father of the girl.
Brother :contract:

Bastard half brother :contract:

We still have no reason to believe that even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were the parents that Jon would be anything but a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell at the time iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 01, 2011, 08:10:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 07:52:53 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Not brother, father of the girl.
Brother :contract:

Bastard half brother :contract:

We still have no reason to believe that even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were the parents that Jon would be anything but a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell at the time iirc.
Brother refers to Rhaegar.

Grey Fox was refering to Aerys .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 01, 2011, 08:18:38 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 01, 2011, 08:10:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 07:52:53 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Not brother, father of the girl.
Brother :contract:

Bastard half brother :contract:

We still have no reason to believe that even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were the parents that Jon would be anything but a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell at the time iirc.
Brother refers to Rhaegar.

Grey Fox was refering to Aerys .

damn... getting confused..

Dany would be Jon's Aunt if Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents, but since Rhaegar and Lyanna don't seem to have been married and Rhaegar was already married he would still be a bastard, just not Ned Starks bastard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 01, 2011, 08:18:38 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 01, 2011, 08:10:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 07:52:53 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Not brother, father of the girl.
Brother :contract:

Bastard half brother :contract:

We still have no reason to believe that even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were the parents that Jon would be anything but a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell at the time iirc.
Brother refers to Rhaegar.

Grey Fox was refering to Aerys .

damn... getting confused..

Dany would be Jon's Aunt if Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents, but since Rhaegar and Lyanna don't seem to have been married and Rhaegar was already married he would still be a bastard, just not Ned Starks bastard.
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 08:24:24 PM
I'm confused but all I was saying is that Rhaegar is Dany's father.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:34:38 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 08:24:24 PM
I'm confused but all I was saying is that Rhaegar is Dany's father.
Nope.

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/#!/guide/houses/targaryen/ (http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/#!/guide/houses/targaryen/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2011, 09:11:02 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 08:24:24 PM
I'm confused but all I was saying is that Rhaegar is Dany's father.

:huh:  That's never so much as hinted at.  It's always very clear that Dany and Viserys are just Rhaegar's younger siblings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 01, 2011, 09:25:47 PM
Man, that's complicated.


Sorry, I am wrong. As I said, I am confused, just more then I thought.

For some reason I was confusing Rhaegar & Aerys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 01, 2011, 09:49:00 PM
There is actually a rather weak theory that Rhaegar is Danaeris's father. The idea is that his son Aegon is still alive and the two of them, together with Jon, make a trio of Targaryen half-siblings. Three heads of the dragon, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 01:36:44 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 01, 2011, 09:49:00 PM
There is actually a rather weak theory that Rhaegar is Danaeris's father. The idea is that his son Aegon is still alive and the two of them, together with Jon, make a trio of Targaryen half-siblings. Three heads of the dragon, etc.

Actually, Tyrion being the third head is more likely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 02, 2011, 02:48:34 AM
A slow episode.  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 02, 2011, 03:21:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.

The Americans have been too long away from the sheltering hand of Royalty.  :bowler:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 02, 2011, 03:31:41 AM
Thank God
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 02, 2011, 03:44:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.
Better for him now I mean. Obviously the truth couldn't be known at the time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 04:05:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.

But he'd also be the son of his one true love, even if not by him. At the very least he'd be extremely torn on what to do with him should that be the case.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2011, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 04:05:18 AM
But he'd also be the son of his one true love, even if not by him. At the very least he'd be extremely torn on what to do with him should that be the case.

Agreed, being a targaryen bastard is enough, but being the proof that Lyanna loved someone else more than him should be enough for Robert to kill him as well.

Robert hates the Targaryens with a burning hate, while Ned Stark does not. You have to remember that all of the causes of the war were Mad King Aerys' crazy behaviour towards the Starks as a result of Rhaegars kidnapping of Lyanna Stark (who was promised to Robert in Marriage). The execution of Brandon Stark and Jon Stark and mass accusations of treason , followed by the demand of Jon Arryn that he hand over Ned and Robert to be executed as well. None of this seems to be especially insulting to Robert Baratheon (apart from the demand that Jon hand him over). That can all be put down to Aerys being crazy.

If anything Ned Stark has most cause to hate the Targaryens but does not. Robert has little reason to hate them but does intensely. That is why I think it was a love match between Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 05:47:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 04:05:18 AM
But he'd also be the son of his one true love, even if not by him. At the very least he'd be extremely torn on what to do with him should that be the case.

Agreed, being a targaryen bastard is enough, but being the proof that Lyanna loved someone else more than him should be enough for Robert to kill him as well.

How can you agree with what I say and then turn it the other way around in the same sentence?  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2011, 05:54:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 05:47:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 04:05:18 AM
But he'd also be the son of his one true love, even if not by him. At the very least he'd be extremely torn on what to do with him should that be the case.

Agreed, being a targaryen bastard is enough, but being the proof that Lyanna loved someone else more than him should be enough for Robert to kill him as well.

How can you agree with what I say and then turn it the other way around in the same sentence?  :P

I'm just saying either reason is good enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 06:05:04 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 05:54:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 05:47:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 04:05:18 AM
But he'd also be the son of his one true love, even if not by him. At the very least he'd be extremely torn on what to do with him should that be the case.

Agreed, being a targaryen bastard is enough, but being the proof that Lyanna loved someone else more than him should be enough for Robert to kill him as well.

How can you agree with what I say and then turn it the other way around in the same sentence?  :P

I'm just saying either reason is good enough.

Another thing, you assume that Robert would know that Lyanna was willing, when he could perfectly go on with his already engraved in stone mantra of "Rhaegar abducted and raped her".  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 02, 2011, 07:36:31 AM
Last night's episode was pretty good, but did the scene with Daenerys and Viserys really go down like that in teh books? I thought Dany was more assertive by that point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.

But a bastard surely cannot hope to be crowned king.
Do we have any historical examples of bastard kings?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 02, 2011, 09:31:54 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.

But a bastard surely cannot hope to be crowned king.
Do we have any historical examples of bastard kings?

William the Bastard, though he was technically speaking King by conquest rather than lineage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 02, 2011, 09:41:03 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 03:07:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Better to be the bastard of the King and a Lady of the North, then the bastard of the Lord of the North and a random wench.

No, more likely to get yourself slaughtered. That's why Ned hid him. If you didn't notice Cersei sent out men to chase down some of Roberts bastards.

This is an understatement. Robert's bastards may be a problem for Cersei but they are not a problem for the state. If Robert knew Jon Snow was a Targaeryn (whether a bastard or not) he would have him killed on the spot - a bastard like this would be a perfect rally point for all Targaeryn loyalists.

In fact, I find it surprising that Timmy does not realize that.

But a bastard surely cannot hope to be crowned king.
Do we have any historical examples of bastard kings?

In Westeros?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 02, 2011, 09:57:36 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM
But a bastard surely cannot hope to be crowned king.
Do we have any historical examples of bastard kings?

Henry VII's claim to the throne was through descent from a bastard of John of Gaunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2011, 10:37:44 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 02, 2011, 09:31:54 AM

William the Bastard, though he was technically speaking King by conquest rather than lineage.

No, Harold Godwinsson promised William fealty during his extended visit in Normany.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 02, 2011, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2011, 10:37:44 AM
No, Harold Godwinsson promised William fealty during his extended visit in Normany.

Supposedly.  Not that I would disparage the integrity of my glorious Norman ancestors :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 02, 2011, 10:45:09 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM
But a bastard surely cannot hope to be crowned king.
Do we have any historical examples of bastard kings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramiro_I_of_Aragon
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 02, 2011, 10:55:53 AM
The Arya & Syrio scene was full of win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 02:38:51 PM
I'm more and more in love with Cersei Lannister. She reminds me of Atia of the Julii.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2011, 04:39:17 PM
I'm not sure, but I think I liked this episode the most so far. It wasn't as fast, action-wise, as the second but probably had the best character-driven scenes. Everyone from Cersei, to Jaime, to Tyrion, to Jon, to Arya, to the Small Council were perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 02, 2011, 04:48:18 PM
A slow episode indeed...
They could really do with slotting in a flashback to the Trident...just a wee one.
Decent enough episode I suppose for someone never having read the book but its just telling me things I already know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 02, 2011, 05:06:38 PM
I had a bit of an issue with Robert's conversation with his kingsgard. I don't recall that scene and since none of the characters present were PoV characters it's unlikely it occurred in the book. That's not so bad. It added some flavour and history. It seemed kind of just stuck in there, but that could be just because I knew it wasn't in the book.

What bothered me was that Robert mentioned killing the Tarly kid at the battle of Summerhall. Now we don't know what happened at Summerhall, but from what I can tell it wasn't a battle. What happens if it turns out to be important in the unwritten books? I guess GRRM vetted the script but it seems sloppy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2011, 06:01:00 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2011, 05:06:38 PM
I had a bit of an issue with Robert's conversation with his kingsgard. I don't recall that scene and since none of the characters present were PoV characters it's unlikely it occurred in the book. That's not so bad. It added some flavour and history. It seemed kind of just stuck in there, but that could be just because I knew it wasn't in the book.

What bothered me was that Robert mentioned killing the Tarly kid at the battle of Summerhall. Now we don't know what happened at Summerhall, but from what I can tell it wasn't a battle. What happens if it turns out to be important in the unwritten books? I guess GRRM vetted the script but it seems sloppy.

Martin is consulting and will write many scripts for this. I think they have discussed this especially regarding any future Tower of Joy scenes that Sean Bean might be required to make. I think that scene is there to make up for alot of the exposition about the heraldic background.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 06:21:27 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2011, 05:06:38 PM
I had a bit of an issue with Robert's conversation with his kingsgard. I don't recall that scene and since none of the characters present were PoV characters it's unlikely it occurred in the book. That's not so bad. It added some flavour and history. It seemed kind of just stuck in there, but that could be just because I knew it wasn't in the book.

What bothered me was that Robert mentioned killing the Tarly kid at the battle of Summerhall. Now we don't know what happened at Summerhall, but from what I can tell it wasn't a battle. What happens if it turns out to be important in the unwritten books? I guess GRRM vetted the script but it seems sloppy.

Whatever the cathaclismic events at Summerhall were, they were many years before Robert's rebellion. It was also a battleground during the rebellion afterwards, which is what was surely referred in the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 02, 2011, 06:24:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 06:21:27 PM
Whatever the cathaclismic events at Summerhall were, they were many years before Robert's rebellion. It was also a battleground during the rebellion afterwards, which is what was surely referred in the episode.
Perhaps. I would have thought Robert would have killed a man before that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 02, 2011, 06:28:22 PM
What happened in Summerhall is known. Somehow. Author announcments I believe. Egg tried to hatch a dragon's egg Dani style but got a bit too carried away with the fire and burned the place down along with himself, his heir, Dunc and lots of other folks.

There were also a few small skirmishes before the big Tridant battle, including the one Robert was going on about. Summerhall was on the border between the Stormlands and the Reach. Can't remember why the skirmish happened there. Small Reach forces heading to meet the main army maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 06:34:27 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2011, 06:24:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 06:21:27 PM
Whatever the cathaclismic events at Summerhall were, they were many years before Robert's rebellion. It was also a battleground during the rebellion afterwards, which is what was surely referred in the episode.
Perhaps. I would have thought Robert would have killed a man before that.

AFAIK it is not mentioned at which stage of the rebellion the Summerhall battles took place, so just make that at the beginning and it's coherent. Robert was very young at that point so it's beliveable that he didn't get into "real" combat until then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2011, 06:36:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 02, 2011, 06:28:22 PM
What happened in Summerhall is known. Somehow. Author announcments I believe. Egg tried to hatch a dragon's egg Dani style but got a bit too carried away with the fire and burned the place down along with himself, his heir, Dunc and lots of other folks.

There were also a few small skirmishes before the big Tridant battle, including the one Robert was going on about. Summerhall was on the border between the Stormlands and the Reach. Can't remember why the skirmish happened there. Small Reach forces heading to meet the main army maybe.

What happened at Summerhall is not know precisely. Several elements are mentioned and rumoured but no real account exists about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 06, 2011, 02:15:02 AM
Sweet preview clip for episode 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2QwUIA8Puk&feature=player_profilepage
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 06, 2011, 02:19:27 AM
Well I have read the first four books now...and..........Martin is Alexandre Dumas reborn  :P !

Monumental verbosity and waffling but, the pages turn fast enough. That fourth book though, only half the characters were covered and even they made little progress...................I'm going to be dead before he finishes the story...............or he is  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 06, 2011, 02:30:02 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 06, 2011, 02:19:27 AM
Well I have read the first four books now...and..........Martin is Alexandre Dumas reborn  :P !

Monumental verbosity and waffling but, the pages turn fast enough. That fourth book though, only half the characters were covered and even they made little progress...................I'm going to be dead before he finishes the story...............or he is  :lol:

That was quick.  :homestar:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 06, 2011, 02:31:50 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 06, 2011, 02:19:27 AM
Well I have read the first four books now...and..........Martin is Alexandre Dumas reborn  :P !

Monumental verbosity and waffling but, the pages turn fast enough. That fourth book though, only half the characters were covered and even they made little progress...................I'm going to be dead before he finishes the story...............or he is  :lol:

Now that was fast! How long did it take you? You only started a couple of weeks ago, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 06, 2011, 02:39:32 AM
I'm not sure, maybe 3 weeks. So that would be a couple of hundred pages a day, sounds about right. I really enjoyed the books btw, but see no reason why Martin can't churn his books out with greater frequency..........one can see now why his fans have been somewhat frustrated over the years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 06, 2011, 02:47:51 AM
Let's see how you hold out to the details. A friend of mine almost literally devoured the books, IIRC he read them all in a week or so, and a month afterwards he could only remember the general arguments, but had missed all the smaller details and hints scattered along the way.

It's a bit like the Woody Allen joke: "I did a course on fast reading, managed to finish War and Peace in two hours. It was something about Russia".  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2011, 06:40:55 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 06, 2011, 02:47:51 AM
Let's see how you hold out to the details. A friend of mine almost literally devoured the books, IIRC he read them all in a week or so, and a month afterwards he could only remember the general arguments, but had missed all the smaller details and hints scattered along the way.

It's a bit like the Woody Allen joke: "I did a course on fast reading, managed to finish War and Peace in two hours. It was something about Russia".  :lol:
So you think it helped that the version of Fire and Ice you bought forced you to slow down to color in pictures?



:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 06, 2011, 07:40:40 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 06, 2011, 02:15:02 AM
Sweet preview clip for episode 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2QwUIA8Puk&feature=player_profilepage

Tyrion is quickly becoming my favorite character on the show. Peter Dinklage is amazing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 06, 2011, 03:37:54 PM
Except the accent
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
What's a Westeros accent supposed to sound like?  :huh:

Not that I'm defending his accent, as I haven't heard it yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 06, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 06, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
What's a Westeros accent supposed to sound like?  :huh:

Not that I'm defending his accent, as I haven't heard it yet.
Variable between the regions.
Consistency between people from the same place (family even) would be nice though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2011, 04:18:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2011, 07:40:40 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 06, 2011, 02:15:02 AM
Sweet preview clip for episode 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2QwUIA8Puk&feature=player_profilepage

Tyrion is quickly becoming my favorite character on the show. Peter Dinklage is amazing.

Agreed.  The imp is my favourite character in the books.  I was prepared to be disappointed in the actors portraying the character but I think he is doing very well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 06, 2011, 04:19:24 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 06, 2011, 02:39:32 AM
I'm not sure, maybe 3 weeks. So that would be a couple of hundred pages a day, sounds about right. I really enjoyed the books btw, but see no reason why Martin can't churn his books out with greater frequency..........one can see now why his fans have been somewhat frustrated over the years.

He obviously has more of a life than you do. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2011, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 06, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
Consistency between people from the same place (family even) would be nice though.

The family lived different lives.  The imp didnt spend years in the King's guard rather he has spent most of his time in brothels.  If he and his brother had the same speech patterns that would have struck me as odd.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 06, 2011, 04:26:02 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 06, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 06, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
What's a Westeros accent supposed to sound like?  :huh:

Not that I'm defending his accent, as I haven't heard it yet.
Variable between the regions.
Consistency between people from the same place (family even) would be nice though.

Despite growing up together, my accent is markedly different from that of my siblings.

Not everyone is a Chav.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 06, 2011, 04:29:59 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2011, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 06, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
Consistency between people from the same place (family even) would be nice though.

The family lived different lives.  The imp didnt spend years in the King's guard rather he has spent most of his time in brothels.  If he and his brother had the same speech patterns that would have struck me as odd.

Agreed. Also most of the aristos in Westeros will have spent at least part of their childhood in another lord's court. It's probably not something to get worked up about, especially if it risked the actors speaking in annoying cod accents.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 07, 2011, 05:32:49 AM
Considering that the actor that plays Tyrion is American, the one that plays Jaime is Danish and the one that plays Cersei from Yorkshire via Bermuda, it's already a feat that they speak anything remotely similar.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 07, 2011, 05:36:48 AM
And another preview, this time of Sansa talking with Septa Mordane. It seems to me that Sansa's character is slightly deeper than in the novels, judging by that scene. Was it from the book or made for the series?

http://youtu.be/hvCxT9ku1LI (http://youtu.be/hvCxT9ku1LI)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 07, 2011, 06:14:44 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEaDm5.jpg&hash=be4b87d7e386839b4830e4a9348687f454301c61)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 07, 2011, 11:47:08 AM
Boromir is awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 08, 2011, 02:16:35 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 07, 2011, 11:47:08 AM
Boromir is awesome.
This.  Plus the overarching Sean Bean is awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 08, 2011, 02:20:39 PM
I don't know. I don't dislike him, but when he plays a character I don't see the character, I see the actor. That says to me that he's not a very good actor.

I didn't see Boromir, I saw Sean Bean. And while I think he's doing better as Eddard Stark I still just see Sean Bean.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 08, 2011, 03:29:19 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 08, 2011, 02:20:39 PM
I don't know. I don't dislike him, but when he plays a character I don't see the character, I see the actor. That says to me that he's not a very good actor.

I didn't see Boromir, I saw Sean Bean. And while I think he's doing better as Eddard Stark I still just see Sean Bean.
I've sen Sean Bean in a great many roles, and have never seen him as Sean Bean.  In fact, he was a character actor for a long time before becoming a "name" actor, and I think his ability to allow the role to dominate the performance is the reason for that.  People would mention his name to me, and I wouldn't know who they were talking about until they named some roles he played, and then I would ask things like "Are you telling me that the guy in Caravaggio was the same actor who played the bad guy in Patriot games?"

So I guess we just see different things when we watch him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 08, 2011, 04:24:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 08, 2011, 03:29:19 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 08, 2011, 02:20:39 PM
I don't know. I don't dislike him, but when he plays a character I don't see the character, I see the actor. That says to me that he's not a very good actor.

I didn't see Boromir, I saw Sean Bean. And while I think he's doing better as Eddard Stark I still just see Sean Bean.
I've sen Sean Bean in a great many roles, and have never seen him as Sean Bean.  In fact, he was a character actor for a long time before becoming a "name" actor, and I think his ability to allow the role to dominate the performance is the reason for that.  People would mention his name to me, and I wouldn't know who they were talking about until they named some roles he played, and then I would ask things like "Are you telling me that the guy in Caravaggio was the same actor who played the bad guy in Patriot games?"

So I guess we just see different things when we watch him.

He's playing more or less the same character in a lot of his movies. However, Sean Bean in Outlaws is certainly far from the same Sean Bean as in GoT.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 08, 2011, 04:37:37 PM
Well I guess I just don't remember the ones where he played the character well. I had forgotten about Patriot Games, also Troy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 08, 2011, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 08, 2011, 04:37:37 PM
Well I guess I just don't remember the ones where he played the character well.

Ever watch the Sharpe's rifles series?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 08, 2011, 08:57:44 PM
I have to agree with grumbler.  Sean Bean is one hell of an actor.  When he's Sharpe, he's the complete cunt with a heart of gold.  When he's Boromir, he's the desperate patriot.  When he plays that worthless IRA guy in Patriot Games, he's a conniving megalomaniac.  He can really plumb the depths of human vileness and pathos.  I wish he had been Aragorn instead of Mortensen, who came off as a chinless wonder.  It's so hard to reconcile the guy who ruled A History of Violence and Eastern Promises with that weak-ass Aragorn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zeus on May 08, 2011, 09:48:05 PM
Sorely disappointed with Dany's smack of her annoying brother. It should have had a bit more drawback and followthrough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 08, 2011, 10:29:04 PM
tonight's episode ended perfectly (catelyn, tyrion and an inn) . i think they're handling the pacing well
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 03:40:28 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 08, 2011, 10:29:04 PM
tonight's episode ended perfectly (catelyn, tyrion and an inn) . i think they're handling the pacing well

Concur. Episode worked very well. A relief from last week's rather weak one.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 09, 2011, 03:42:15 AM
Next week is halfway point of season yes? Or was it tonight?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 03:46:05 AM
Next.

10 episodes seems too damn short.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 07:52:16 AM
Can't stand Theon Greyjoy. The only casting/characterization so far that I do not care for.

Also, in the book, I think it was the Hound who told Sansa about what happened to him at the hands of his brother, and IIRC, it was a pretty important little scene in respects to the relationship between Sansa and the Hound.

Having Littlefinger tell her 30 seconds after he meets Sansa at a tournament, and for no discernible reason at all (Sansa hasn't even ever spoken to the Hound) made no sense at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 09, 2011, 08:43:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 07:52:16 AM
Can't stand Theon Greyjoy. The only casting/characterization so far that I do not care for.

Well, I couldn't stand him in the books, so maybe it's not that bad a casting? Or can you not stand the fact that you can stand him?  :hmm:

Damn, I need to see this show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Scipio on May 08, 2011, 08:57:44 PM
I have to agree with grumbler.  Sean Bean is one hell of an actor.  When he's Sharpe, he's the complete cunt with a heart of gold.  When he's Boromir, he's the desperate patriot.  When he plays that worthless IRA guy in Patriot Games, he's a conniving megalomaniac.  He can really plumb the depths of human vileness and pathos.  I wish he had been Aragorn instead of Mortensen, who came off as a chinless wonder.  It's so hard to reconcile the guy who ruled A History of Violence and Eastern Promises with that weak-ass Aragorn.
Except that Boromir just wasn't well done at all. Upon reflexion, that's probably where my dissatisfaction with Bean started. And no I haven't seen the Sharpe's series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 07:52:16 AM
Can't stand Theon Greyjoy. The only casting/characterization so far that I do not care for.

Also, in the book, I think it was the Hound who told Sansa about what happened to him at the hands of his brother, and IIRC, it was a pretty important little scene in respects to the relationship between Sansa and the Hound.

Having Littlefinger tell her 30 seconds after he meets Sansa at a tournament, and for no discernible reason at all (Sansa hasn't even ever spoken to the Hound) made no sense at all.

I want to hear about the hot tub scene. Hott? :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 08:49:21 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 09, 2011, 08:43:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 07:52:16 AM
Can't stand Theon Greyjoy. The only casting/characterization so far that I do not care for.

Well, I couldn't stand him in the books, so maybe it's not that bad a casting? Or can you not stand the fact that you can stand him?  :hmm:

Damn, I need to see this show.

In the books he did not come across as a slimy little weasel until AFTER he went back home though - right now, if Robb sent him to Pike with an offer of alliance, I would think Robb was the idiot for trusting him, as he is clearly a slimy little scuzzball.

In the books he was a close friend of Robbs, before he went home and his father broke him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 08:49:21 AM
In the books he did not come across as a slimy little weasel until AFTER he went back home though - right now, if Robb sent him to Pike with an offer of alliance, I would think Robb was the idiot for trusting him, as he is clearly a slimy little scuzzball.

In the books he was a close friend of Robbs, before he went home and his father broke him.

In the books you do not get that he is anything but a jerk until he saves Bran from the Wildlings.  Maybe that will happen here as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 08:52:08 AM
You know what this series is really missing?  Wolves.  We need more Summer/Ghost/Grey Wind/Shaggy Dog.

They do not have to do anything but they should just be there.  It was great to see Ghost this last episode but it was the first time we really saw him since he was a tiny puppy except for one brief glimpse in episode 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 09:43:57 AM
Btw, about the series unwinding too slowly - I have a friend who is reading the books in parallel with the series, and he says it is going at the right pace, with about 100 pages of the books per episode, and at this pace they will manage to wrap up the first book in 10 episodes.

Can't wait to go home tonight to watch the fourth episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 09:45:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 07:52:16 AM
Can't stand Theon Greyjoy. The only casting/characterization so far that I do not care for.

Also, in the book, I think it was the Hound who told Sansa about what happened to him at the hands of his brother, and IIRC, it was a pretty important little scene in respects to the relationship between Sansa and the Hound.

Having Littlefinger tell her 30 seconds after he meets Sansa at a tournament, and for no discernible reason at all (Sansa hasn't even ever spoken to the Hound) made no sense at all.
Sansa spoke to the Hound in Episode 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 09, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
How much boob/snatch is in this series? I have the on demand service, and would really only watch it for good boob & snatch shots.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 09, 2011, 09:57:07 AM
T&A so far, but not anywhere near the Spartacus show from little ice seen of that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 09:57:10 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 09, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
How much boob/snatch is in this series? I have the on demand service, and would really only watch it for good boob & snatch shots.

Tons of boobs but no snatch...that I know of.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 09:57:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 09:43:57 AM
Btw, about the series unwinding too slowly - I have a friend who is reading the books in parallel with the series, and he says it is going at the right pace, with about 100 pages of the books per episode, and at this pace they will manage to wrap up the first book in 10 episodes.

Can't wait to go home tonight to watch the fourth episode.

Yeah I think we forget how far into GoT Tyrion gets nabbed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 10:22:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 09:57:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 09:43:57 AM
Btw, about the series unwinding too slowly - I have a friend who is reading the books in parallel with the series, and he says it is going at the right pace, with about 100 pages of the books per episode, and at this pace they will manage to wrap up the first book in 10 episodes.

Can't wait to go home tonight to watch the fourth episode.

Yeah I think we forget how far into GoT Tyrion gets nabbed.

Yep. And it is the dumbass move on Catelyns part to grab Tyrion that starts the war, at least starts the outright part of it...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 10:22:25 AM
Yep. And it is the dumbass move on Catelyns part to grab Tyrion that starts the war, at least starts the outright part of it...

It makes sense if you trust Littlefinger.  There is no move quite so dumbass as trusting anything that guy says.  Yet people keep doing it.  The best part about him is even when it looks like he has saved the day, like at the end of ACoK, he still has screwed everybody.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 10:22:25 AM
Yep. And it is the dumbass move on Catelyns part to grab Tyrion that starts the war, at least starts the outright part of it...
I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).

Catelyn grabs Tyrion to have a counter-hostage to her own daughters - that probably was a dumbass move, if she knew anything of the style of Martin's plot-writing, but I suspect that she didn't.  I suppose that people were shocked.. shocked! to discover that hostages were being taken in Westeros and so went to war, but I think Gregor's murderous rampage through the Riverlands at the head of a Lannister army would probably have clued people eventually into the fact that they were at war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:54:52 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 10:25:00 AM
It makes sense if you trust Littlefinger.  There is no move quite so dumbass as trusting anything that guy says.  Yet people keep doing it.  The best part about him is even when it looks like he has saved the day, like at the end of ACoK, he still has screwed everybody.
Agreed.  Littlefinger's plotting (and we know so little about it even to the end of the latest book) is one of the better-conceived elements of the story, because you realize that he really wasn't taking much in the way of chances at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 09:57:10 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 09, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
How much boob/snatch is in this series? I have the on demand service, and would really only watch it for good boob & snatch shots.

Tons of boobs but no snatch...that I know of.

Didn't we get full frontal from Dany? Episode 1 or 2?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 10:58:06 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 09:57:10 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 09, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
How much boob/snatch is in this series? I have the on demand service, and would really only watch it for good boob & snatch shots.

Tons of boobs but no snatch...that I know of.

Didn't we get full frontal from Dany? Episode 1 or 2?

Both.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 09, 2011, 10:58:33 AM
Didn't really show below the waist from front. Backside now...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:52:29 AM
I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).
I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 09, 2011, 11:15:22 AM
You fuckers are gonna make me read the books with all the shit you keep posting <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 11:15:56 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:52:29 AM
I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).
I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

Catelyn's actions accelerated what was going to happen anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:18:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 11:15:56 AM

Catelyn's actions accelerated what was going to happen anyway.
Correct, but that doesn't address my point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:18:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 11:15:56 AM

Catelyn's actions accelerated what was going to happen anyway.
Correct, but that doesn't address my point.

My understanding is that she didn't really think deeply about it, just seized the opportunity wrongly believing that she'd have the upper hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.
Not my recollection at all, but the books are poor at maintaining a sense of timing, so you may be right.  Not sure why Gregor would murder riverlanders because Tyrion is arrested, though.

QuoteWe were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?
If her husband and daughters are in danger, then a counter-hostage is useful.  If they are not, then Catelyn faces no censure for arresting someone she has evidence is a would-be murderer.  Only the reader knows that there are a thousand pages of text in his/her right hand, and so this arrest will trigger a war.  Not knowing how long the books will be makes her actions are less "stupid," IMO.  It is always easy to criticize events or actions from hindsight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:45:34 AM
Gregor is Tywin Lannister's mad dog. Catelyn (Tully) Stark arrested Tyrion Lannister. The Tullys are lords paramount of the trident. It is perfectly clear to me why Tyrion's arrest leads to Gregor murdering riverlanders.

The Stark girls weren't hostages yet when Catelyn left King's Landing iirc. She had wanted to bring them home with her, but Eddard didn't want to show fear, and felt that the girls should learn the ways of the court.

If Catelyn didn't know what kind of man Tywin Lannister was she could be forgiven for not knowing her action would start a war. However she should have known. there were plenty of examples of what happened to those who slighted him. Further, it seems she knew she would be pursued. Her misdirection and flight over the much more dangerous high road says as much.

It seems much more likely that, as the Larch said, she just didn't think. This is stupid, especially in actions between the high houses of the land.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on May 09, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:52:29 AM
I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).
I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

No that was part of the reason but not all of it. By the time  of the raids, Ned has been investigating the parentage of Joffrey and his sibling and has been attacked by the kingslayer who has fled Kings Landing. It's obviously all about to kick off and the raids are the preliminaries.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 09, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:52:29 AM
I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).
I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

No that was part of the reason but not all of it. By the time  of the raids, Ned has been investigating the parentage of Joffrey and his sibling and has been attacked by the kingslayer who has fled Kings Landing. It's obviously all about to kick off and the raids are the preliminaries.

Plus at that point not even Ned knows just how much danger he is in.  Catelyn thinks she has the upper hand (Ned too thinks he has the upper hand right up until his betrayal).  Her husband is both a powerful Lord of the North and the King's hand.  She has apprehended the person she thinks is responsible for the attempted murder of her child.  I see nothing stupid about this.   It is only with hindsight that one can say that, on reflection, it should not have been done.  But in any event, as Gups, points out the plans to eliminate Ned and make way for Joffrey's coronation were already in motion - all of which neither Catelyn nor Ned knew.  They were taking steps towards achieving "justice" - each in their own way - which was true to their character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 09, 2011, 12:00:29 PM
I read somewhere that Clegane's raids were a bait for Ned Stark to leave King's Landing after him and then be able to assasinate Robert with impunity. They'd happen sooner or later, with Tyrion captured or not. Jaime's attack on Ned as retaliation for Tyrion's capture foiled this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 09, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 10:52:29 AM
I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).
I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

No that was part of the reason but not all of it. By the time  of the raids, Ned has been investigating the parentage of Joffrey and his sibling and has been attacked by the kingslayer who has fled Kings Landing. It's obviously all about to kick off and the raids are the preliminaries.

Plus at that point not even Ned knows just how much danger he is in.  Catelyn thinks she has the upper hand.  Her husband is both a powerful Lord of the North and the King's hand.  She has apprehended the person she thinks is responsible for the attempted murder of her child.  I see nothing stupid about this.   It is only with hindsight that one can say that, on reflection, it should not have been done.  But in any event, as Gups, points out the plans to eliminate Ned and make way for Joffrey's coronation were already in motion - all of which neither Catelyn nor Ned knew.  They were taking steps towards achieving "justice" - each in their own way - which was a decision true to their character.

Concur.

Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:08:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:01:11 PM
Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:12:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:08:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:01:11 PM
Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.

Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:16:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:12:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:08:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:01:11 PM
Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.

Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North.

They're certainly portrayed as noble and honourable country bumpkins who can't adapt to the conniving ways of city folk. The blonde farm girl from Idaho recently come to New York City.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:17:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:12:12 PM
Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North. 

I do not recall them ever being called "wise".  Rather they are portrayed as humorless, grim, and honorable.

Robb, Sansa, Arya, and Eddard all have their moments where they do things that make you go  :wacko:.  Jon might have one to but I do not recall it.  At least Arya realizes she has been an idiot shortly afterwards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:17:51 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 09, 2011, 11:45:34 AM
Gregor is Tywin Lannister's mad dog. Catelyn (Tully) Stark arrested Tyrion Lannister. The Tullys are lords paramount of the trident. It is perfectly clear to me why Tyrion's arrest leads to Gregor murdering riverlanders.
Okay, but it isn't obvious to the rest of us.  Gregor's murder binge isn't aimed at anyone related to Tyrion's arrest and is an obvious act of war against a close ally of the king.  Besides, the horrific crime the lannisters are engaging in seem more likely to worsen Tyrion's danger, not lessen it.  If these attacks didn't precede tyrion's capture, which is entirely possible.

QuoteThe Stark girls weren't hostages yet when Catelyn left King's Landing iirc. She had wanted to bring them home with her, but Eddard didn't want to show fear, and felt that the girls should learn the ways of the court.
But Ned expressed concern, and having Tyrion would give her leverage if things went to shit.  I suppose that is "stupid" but is seems a smart kind of stupid.  There would be no reasonable set of circumstances in which her possession of Tyrion would be a bad thing.

QuoteIf Catelyn didn't know what kind of man Tywin Lannister was she could be forgiven for not knowing her action would start a war. However she should have known. there were plenty of examples of what happened to those who slighted him. Further, it seems she knew she would be pursued. Her misdirection and flight over the much more dangerous high road says as much.
The war had already started, and in any case the arrest of someone isn't a causus bellorum even to Tywin.  An execution, maybe.  Catelyn couldn't know that Martin was going to start wars on feeble excuses (or none at all), so she couldn't expect her action to start one.

Or, put another way, she would have "known what kind of man Tywin Lannister was" and that he would send Gregor to attack the Riverlands if his toast was soggy or his boots not polished.  Given that, being stupid enough to have some leverage would have been smart.

Either Tywin is irrational and hair-triggered, in which case nothing could avoid a war anyway, or he was rational and cold-blooded, in which case he would wait and see what was going on with Tyrion before starting a war.  either way, grabbing Tyrion on a legitimate pretext would be the smart kind of stupid.

QuoteIt seems much more likely that, as the Larch said, she just didn't think. This is stupid, especially in actions between the high houses of the land.
She didn't plan this, of course, because she couldn't.  I agree that her actions would be stupid if she had read the book, but she was a character and it seems to me that a person in her shoes would be smart to do what she did.  Being smart like that may be stupid, but it is a smart stupid. 

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:19:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:17:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:12:12 PM
Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North. 

I do not recall them ever being called "wise".  Rather they are portrayed as humorless, grim, and honorable.

The main problem I have with them is that Ned has certainly been around long enough to know how the Lannisters (and others) work, and while Robb maybe has the excuse of ignorant youth, Ned and Cat certainly don't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:16:42 PM
They're certainly portrayed as noble and honourable country bumpkins who can't adapt to the conniving ways of city folk. The blonde farm girl from Idaho recently come to New York City.

Ned has seen the world and has successfully overthrown a dynasty that had ruled for generations.  No mean feat.  His wife is no country Bumpkin.  That is what we first learn about them in the Book.  But then, I agree, they turn into country Bumpkins somewhere along the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:20:34 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:19:38 PM
The main problem I have with them is that Ned has certainly been around long enough to know how the Lannisters (and others) work, and while Robb maybe has the excuse of ignorant youth, Ned and Cat certainly don't.

You can sorta see why the kids make their mistakes but Ned's are the most frustrating.  Again it is best not to think about them too much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:16:42 PM
They're certainly portrayed as noble and honourable country bumpkins who can't adapt to the conniving ways of city folk. The blonde farm girl from Idaho recently come to New York City.

Ned has seen the world and has successfully overthrown a dynasty that had ruled for generations.  No mean feat.  His wife is no country Bumpkin.  That is what we first learn about them in the Book.  But then, I agree, they turn into country Bumpkins somewhere along the way.

Indeed. I can't really connect the description of Ned and what he's been through and done, with how he acts during the events of the books. Dissonance in the extreme.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:17:20 PM
I do not recall them ever being called "wise".  Rather they are portrayed as humorless, grim, and honorable.

Robb, Sansa, Arya, and Eddard all have their moments where they do things that make you go  :wacko:.  Jon might have one to but I do not recall it.  At least Arya realizes she has been an idiot shortly afterwards.
Agree with this whole line of argumentation.  The Starks (and Tullys) have eschewed the politics and compromises of the court and held to their own values and principals, which are out of date and even counterproductive when mixing with normal people.  Ned's failure to realize how much a self-made man like Littlefinger could prosper in uncertain times allows him to make the fatal error of trusting the man.  Ned literally cannot see how Littlefinger would want a civil war to erupt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on May 09, 2011, 12:29:43 PM
I reread a few weeks ago and Ned's naivety is unrealistic in the extreme. OK being a Machaevelli is not in is character description but he has fought a civil war and had to mediate between feuding underlords.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:31:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:20:06 PM
Ned has seen the world and has successfully overthrown a dynasty that had ruled for generations.  No mean feat.  His wife is no country Bumpkin.  That is what we first learn about them in the Book.  But then, I agree, they turn into country Bumpkins somewhere along the way.
I don't think Ned is that well-traveled, and he overthrew a dynasty in the company of like-minded men, and then went home.  How was he to learn just how far Tywin Lannister would go to gain more power?

I think Ned was a country bumpkin all along, just as Robert was.  So was Catelyn.  Hoster Tully and his kids had stayed as far from the court as Ned had.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:35:31 PM
Quote from: Gups on May 09, 2011, 12:29:43 PM
I reread a few weeks ago and Ned's naivety is unrealistic in the extreme. OK being a Machaevelli is not in is character description but he has fought a civil war and had to mediate between feuding underlords.
Ned is a typical medieval lord with a typical medieval lord's mindset.  Ditto for his kids, for the most part.  They are dinosaurs in the Machiavellian politics of the books, but that is because Martin writes them that way.  I think an actual historical character with Ned's character in Ned's shoes would act much the way he did, and die much as he did.Nothing in his upbringing would have prepared him to think that the guy across the table wants anarchy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 09, 2011, 12:42:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:31:06 PMI don't think Ned is that well-traveled, and he overthrew a dynasty in the company of like-minded men, and then went home.  How was he to learn just how far Tywin Lannister would go to gain more power?

I think Ned was a country bumpkin all along, just as Robert was.  So was Catelyn.  Hoster Tully and his kids had stayed as far from the court as Ned had.

:yes:

robert could trust ned, and they had been friends their whole lives, and that is the only reason why he became king's hand. fighting in a civil war years earlier meant he at least knew some swordsmanship and likely generalship, but that doesn't mean he could engage in the sort of politicking required of him at king's landing. his plan after robert's death was sound from his perspective
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 12:55:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:12:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 12:08:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:01:11 PM
Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.

Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North.

I may be wrong but I never thought of them as portrayed as "wise". Honorable, courageous, loyal yes. But not very SMRT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:31:06 PM
I don't think Ned is that well-traveled, and he overthrew a dynasty in the company of like-minded men, and then went home.

Not sure that is accurate.  Ned fought and succeeded in the civil war which itself had shifting loyalties.  The Books portray him as one of the leading figures in the rebellion.  Not some single minded country rube that simply fought and went home.  He succeeded in putting Robert on the throne.  The books make it pretty clear that if it had not been for Stark Robert may not have gained the throne.  The first inkling he gets that something has gone wrong is when he learns Robert is coming north to ask him to be the King's hand.   His background is much more complex and not consistent with the naive character he turns out to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 01:01:22 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 09, 2011, 12:42:51 PM
robert could trust ned, and they had been friends their whole lives, and that is the only reason why he became king's hand. fighting in a civil war years earlier meant he at least knew some swordsmanship and likely generalship, but that doesn't mean he could engage in the sort of politicking required of him at king's landing. his plan after robert's death was sound from his perspective

That is pretty extreme.  Ned was the key leader in the rebellion. Now you want to make him out to be some farm hand who might have known how to swing a sword.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 01:01:43 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 09, 2011, 12:42:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:31:06 PMI don't think Ned is that well-traveled, and he overthrew a dynasty in the company of like-minded men, and then went home.  How was he to learn just how far Tywin Lannister would go to gain more power?

I think Ned was a country bumpkin all along, just as Robert was.  So was Catelyn.  Hoster Tully and his kids had stayed as far from the court as Ned had.

:yes:

robert could trust ned, and they had been friends their whole lives, and that is the only reason why he became king's hand. fighting in a civil war years earlier meant he at least knew some swordsmanship and likely generalship, but that doesn't mean he could engage in the sort of politicking required of him at king's landing. his plan after robert's death was sound from his perspective

Indeed. The Robert's and Ned's rebellion was not an act of political intrigue and gamesmanship in the vein of Lannisters or Littlefinger. It was essentially a family feud/vendetta for them and Ned participated in it out of family duty (same reason he married Catelyn) - it was the "right thing" to do. And promptly after winning this war, he left for his Northern abode. This guy is about duty, honor and guarding the North - he is not a politicko.

His failing is not just his sense of honor but a bunch of bad traits as well - notably, pride, which requires him to believe that because he is one of the great lords, he has nothing to fear from the likes of Littlefinger or Varys.

He is like a typical medieval noble confronted with the coming of the Italian renaissance - a fish out of water.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 01:03:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 12:31:06 PM
I don't think Ned is that well-traveled, and he overthrew a dynasty in the company of like-minded men, and then went home.

Not sure that is accurate.  Ned fought and succeeded in the civil war which itself had shifting loyalties.  The Books portray him as one of the leading figures in the rebellion.  Not some single minded country rube that simply fought and went home.  He succeeded in putting Robert on the throne.  The books make it pretty clear that if it had not been for Stark Robert may not have gained the throne.  The first inkling he gets that something has gone wrong is when he learns Robert is coming north to ask him to be the King's hand.   His background is much more complex and not consistent with the naive character he turns out to be.

I do not know the details about the Ned's rebellion, but wasn't that pretty much:

1. Ned lives up North.
2. Targaeryns kill Ned's father and brother, kidnap and "rape" his sister.
3. Ned goes South and kills Targaeryns.
4. Ned goes back North.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 09, 2011, 01:04:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:12:12 PM
Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

Love makes people do stupid things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 09, 2011, 01:04:12 PM
Love makes people do stupid things.

Especially teenagers.  That is why Arya is never going to go through puberty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 01:16:21 PM
With this Ned bashing I think I have to stand up for the guy. Basically NED has won, he has discovered the truth of Jamie and Cersie, he has the proof (in Roberts bastards). There are two plots to take him out, one of which succeeds. Should both fail he is guaranteed to succeed, Robert trusts him and hates his wife.

A) Tywins plot to remove him by tempting him out of Kings Landing and ambushing him with the force eventually led by Beric Dondarrion. Jamie screwed this plot up by injuring Ned in revenge for Catelyn taking Tyrion captive.

B) Cerseis plot to kill him by helping Robert die hunting and then have Joffrey lop his head off.


This all leads me to wonder if Tywin actually knew that Joffrey was a child of incest, or if the fact that crazy Lysa Arryn had Tyrion was enough to start a war. As far as I can see Tywin is either trying to kill Ned by getting him away from Kings Landing and having Gregor Clegane kill him or he is starting the war which is bound to follow the upcoming deaths of Ned and Robert early.

We have POV from Jamie and Tyrion which clears both of them of everything except chucking bran out the window and comitting incest. We have to guess Tywin and Cerseis motivations though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 09, 2011, 01:31:52 PM
I thought they had Cersei POV chapters in the last book? :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 01:32:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 01:03:49 PM
I do not know the details about the Ned's rebellion, but wasn't that pretty much:

1. Ned lives up North.
2. Targaeryns kill Ned's father and brother, kidnap and "rape" his sister.
3. Ned goes South and kills Targaeryns.
4. Ned goes back North.

1. Ned is second son of Stark living in the North.
2. Rhaegar is bookish lad that reads a book and suddenly decides to become a warrior.
3. Great tourney of Harrenhall with the thing with Lyanna Stark and Howland Reed and the thing with Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar.
4. Rhaegar kidnapps Lyanna Stark
5. Older brother of Ned, Brandon Stark, marches down to Kings Landing with three men and demands to fight Prince Rhaegar and free Lyanna.
6. Mad king Aerys arrest Brandon Stark and orders Rickard Stark to come down to Kings Landing to speak for his son.
7. Mad King Aerys holds "trial" and conducts rather theatrical executions.
8. Mad King Aerys demands Jon Arryn release Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon to be executed, Jon Arryn refuses and starts rebellion.
9. Jon and Ned marry Lysa and Catelyn to cement Tully Alliance.
10. Robert and Ned beat Rhaegar at the Trident.
11. Ned hurries to kings Landing to find Lannisters have betrayed Targaryens and switched sides.
12. Tower of Joy incident with Ned, Howland Reed, Arthur Dayne and Neds promise to Lyanna.
13. Ned in Dorn to give the arthur's sword back and says something to asharya dayne to cause her to commit sucide

It's much more complicated than that and it shows that ned does take part in the great tourneys and is fostered by the grand wise old man jon arryn as well as (presumably) getting dornish wench asharya dayne to fall in love with him. Neds great failing is to not see the options open to others in performing acts he considers abominable. He doesn't consider murder and bribery options for himself, so he doesn't see the possiblities in murder and bribery open to others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 09, 2011, 01:31:52 PM
I thought they had Cersei POV chapters in the last book? :unsure:

I haven't gotten that far in my re-reading...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 09, 2011, 01:39:48 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 01:16:21 PM
B) Cerseis plot to kill him by helping Robert die hunting and then have Joffrey lop his head off.

Except the head lopping was Joffrey's own improvisation and Cersei planned only to send Ned to the Wall.

Also should remember that Ned could have increased his chances considerably by allying with Renly and/or Littlefinger when they made their offers to him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Not sure that is accurate.  Ned fought and succeeded in the civil war which itself had shifting loyalties. 
Not sure that is accurate.  Except for the Lannister strike for the throne at the end, the war seemed pretty straightforward.

QuoteThe Books portray him as one of the leading figures in the rebellion.  Not some single minded country rube that simply fought and went home.  He succeeded in putting Robert on the throne.  The books make it pretty clear that if it had not been for Stark Robert may not have gained the throne.
Yes, he was a leading figure in the rebellion, when things were straightforward and the enemy clear.  That is what ned was good at, and that is what Robert remembered him for.

QuoteThe first inkling he gets that something has gone wrong is when he learns Robert is coming north to ask him to be the King's hand.   His background is much more complex and not consistent with the naive character he turns out to be.
The fact that he doesn't know how rotten things have gotten is just more evidence that the book is presenting him as a naive character all along.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 01:45:32 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 09, 2011, 01:39:48 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 01:16:21 PM
B) Cerseis plot to kill him by helping Robert die hunting and then have Joffrey lop his head off.

Except the head lopping was Joffrey's own improvisation and Cersei planned only to send Ned to the Wall.

Also should remember that Ned could have increased his chances considerably by allying with Renly and/or Littlefinger when they made their offers to him.

You are correct, my comment is exactly 8 words too long. But the deal for Ned in Black is made by Tyrion to effectively end the war. Cerseis plan almost certainly did not included Robb calling his banners and marching south.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 02:08:15 PM
Unless I am not remembering correctly, the basic sequence of events is:

1. Catelyn takes Tyrion
2. In response, the Kingslayer attacks Ned in Kings Landing.
3. Kingslayer flees

And then thinks just go to shit.

Prior to Catelyn taking Tyrion, nothing had really happened that could not be resolved wihtout bloodshed, at least in theory. Her taking Tyrion was the first overtly hostile act, and based on some really stupid reasons.

I mean, the story from Littlefinger is that he lost the dagger to Tyrion. Even if you accept that at face value, why would you automatically assume that Tyrion was then responsible with such surety that you are willing to take him hostage? If the dagger can go from Littlefinger to Tyrion, surely it can go from Tyrion to someone else.

And taking Tyrion hostage is a huge decision. It has ramifications that go far beyond the issue of justice, and Catelyn knew that - she was no country bumpkin. I think she was just faced with a situation she had no expectation of (running into Tyrion in the inn) and reacted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 09, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 02:08:15 PM
And taking Tyrion hostage is a huge decision. It has ramifications that go far beyond the issue of justice, and Catelyn knew that - she was no country bumpkin. I think she was just faced with a situation she had no expectation of (running into Tyrion in the inn) and reacted.

That's pretty much it - Catelyn was content to go on her way but she was recognized, so she had to do something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 09, 2011, 02:29:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 08, 2011, 03:29:19 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 08, 2011, 02:20:39 PM
I don't know. I don't dislike him, but when he plays a character I don't see the character, I see the actor. That says to me that he's not a very good actor.

I didn't see Boromir, I saw Sean Bean. And while I think he's doing better as Eddard Stark I still just see Sean Bean.
I've sen Sean Bean in a great many roles, and have never seen him as Sean Bean.  In fact, he was a character actor for a long time before becoming a "name" actor, and I think his ability to allow the role to dominate the performance is the reason for that.  People would mention his name to me, and I wouldn't know who they were talking about until they named some roles he played, and then I would ask things like "Are you telling me that the guy in Caravaggio was the same actor who played the bad guy in Patriot games?"

So I guess we just see different things when we watch him.

I just dicovered recently that the guy that played Faramir also played the blinded dude in 300, and the bad guy in Australia.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 09, 2011, 02:31:53 PM
You saw Australia?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
Littlefinger's story about the knife is obviously untrue. Provably untrue to boot. Tyrions defense that he never bets against his brother is easy to prove wrong if it is wrong. Tyrion gets convinced that Joffrey sent the assassin since he recognized the knife. Littlefinger is trying to frame Tyrion in the eyes of Ned and Catelyn. The next thing she does is to move back north, taking the rout suggested by Littlefinger and the next thing Ned does is chase down the Jon Arryn's squire and Roberts bastard Gendry with Littlefinger's help. He points the on the path to ruin both of them. When littlefinger later tells Sansa how he wooed the Martell's and how he arranged for the Queen of Thorns to want to murder Joffrey (Margery presumably had the antedote to the poison) he explains exactly how he gets people to do what he wants thinking that they did it on their own initiative. I took that to refer to Catelyn's journey back to Winterfell and Ned's journey to discovering the incest.

A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.

Hehe more than a case.  That is precisely what he intended to do and what he did.  But he was prepared to go Stark if the Starks somehow won.  He just wanted chaos and he knew he would win either way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:44:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.

Hehe more than a case.  That is precisely what he intended to do and what he did.  But he was prepared to go Stark if the Starks somehow won.  He just wanted chaos and he knew he would win either way.

I don't think that littlefinger's plans are as lowly as that might seem to suggest.. his move from Finger -> Lysa Tulley -> Jon Arryn -> Master of Coin -> Small Council -> Lord of Harrenhall -> Lord Protector of the Vale -> Husband of the heir to Winterfell Sansa Stark seems to suggest that his revenge on Brandon Stark for losing Catelyn Stark to him is to take from Ned Stark everything that he loves.

But, I worry that I give littlefinger too much credit. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 02:48:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
Littlefinger's story about the knife is obviously untrue. Provably untrue to boot. Tyrions defense that he never bets against his brother is easy to prove wrong if it is wrong. Tyrion gets convinced that Joffrey sent the assassin since he recognized the knife. Littlefinger is trying to frame Tyrion in the eyes of Ned and Catelyn. The next thing she does is to move back north, taking the rout suggested by Littlefinger and the next thing Ned does is chase down the Jon Arryn's squire and Roberts bastard Gendry with Littlefinger's help. He points the on the path to ruin both of them. When littlefinger later tells Sansa how he wooed the Martell's and how he arranged for the Queen of Thorns to want to murder Joffrey (Margery presumably had the antedote to the poison) he explains exactly how he gets people to do what he wants thinking that they did it on their own initiative. I took that to refer to Catelyn's journey back to Winterfell and Ned's journey to discovering the incest.

A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.
I agree 100%.  Littlefinger wants things to fall apart because he is an "outsider" who sees anarchy as a path to power.  Neither Ned nor Catelyn can imagine that someone in his position could want a war to break out, so they believe him when he tells them stories that seem to enable them to prevent a war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:44:53 PM
Husband of the heir to Winterfell Sansa Stark

I thought he was scheming to wed Sansa to Harry the Heir?  Hey it would not be surprising if he was lying and did want to marry Sansa I was just not aware it said this anywhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 09, 2011, 02:53:24 PM
He is certainly scheming and wanting to marry her to Harry.
What comes after that though...he certainly wants her in some way. Whether he waits for her to have a kid then offs Harry and marries her or just takes her as his mistress is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:44:53 PM
Husband of the heir to Winterfell Sansa Stark

I thought he was scheming to wed Sansa to Harry the Heir?  Hey it would not be surprising if he was lying and did want to marry Sansa I was just not aware it said this anywhere.

That is what he says. He has very specifically said that he only ever loved Catelyn and that Sansa looks just like her mother.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 09, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
I agree with Berkut's last post in regards to what happened.  Also, he's got the timeline correct for clarification. 

I also agree that Ned is more of the typical feudal style lord as opposed to the more Italian Renaissance style ruling occurring in the south.  They make mention of being the Lord of the North being far more tied to shows of bravery, honor, and personal interaction amongst the lords.  There's a bit about Ned's policies as lord, and also when Robb takes over and rallies the North for the march, it goes further into how things are run up there.  To be a success in the North, you would be terrible in the South and vice versa.  Throw in that Ned wasn't initially groomed for leadership and lordship till after the death of his older brother and father, and you have someone who is much more steeped in military interaction and stories of honor and bravery than schooled in the arts of Machiavellian diplomacy and intrigue.

Ned reminds me a lot of Richard III as presented in favorable texts.  He is the "brother" of the man he helped set upon the throne who was once a giant of a man who was a physical specimen on the battlefield and imposing as a king.  Said king then was involved in a marriage that allowed her family to come in and start taking over the running of affairs while the king went to shit due to debauchery.  Ned/Richard take control of the far north and run affairs remarkably well in lieu of the king.  The king then passes away and Ned/Richard are both appointed as protectors of the realm to young kings with controlling mothers and powerful families backing them.  The split comes in how they deal with the succession issues that arise.  There's more to it than that, but that's the core of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 09, 2011, 03:12:49 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 09, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
I agree with Berkut's last post in regards to what happened.  Also, he's got the timeline correct for clarification. 

I also agree that Ned is more of the typical feudal style lord as opposed to the more Italian Renaissance style ruling occurring in the south.  They make mention of being the Lord of the North being far more tied to shows of bravery, honor, and personal interaction amongst the lords.  There's a bit about Ned's policies as lord, and also when Robb takes over and rallies the North for the march, it goes further into how things are run up there.  To be a success in the North, you would be terrible in the South and vice versa.  Throw in that Ned wasn't initially groomed for leadership and lordship till after the death of his older brother and father, and you have someone who is much more steeped in military interaction and stories of honor and bravery than schooled in the arts of Machiavellian diplomacy and intrigue.

Ned reminds me a lot of Richard III as presented in favorable texts.  He is the "brother" of the man he helped set upon the throne who was once a giant of a man who was a physical specimen on the battlefield and imposing as a king.  Said king then was involved in a marriage that allowed her family to come in and start taking over the running of affairs while the king went to shit due to debauchery.  Ned/Richard take control of the far north and run affairs remarkably well in lieu of the king.  The king then passes away and Ned/Richard are both appointed as protectors of the realm to young kings with controlling mothers and powerful families backing them.  The split comes in how they deal with the succession issues that arise.  There's more to it than that, but that's the core of it.

You think Ned is a monster?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 09, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).
Haven't gotten that far yet.  I'm only just finishing the first book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:22:36 PM
I have gotten the impression that Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Borgia might be the inspiration and/or dummy lure for Sansa and Joffrey... at least the names...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 09, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).
Haven't gotten that far yet.  I'm only just finishing the first book.

The is a fully spoilered zone, sorry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:22:36 PM
I have gotten the impression that Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Borgia might be the inspiration and/or dummy lure for Sansa and Joffrey... at least the names...

Jaime is a Spanish/Aragonese name too. I think Lannisters have names from the region - but the comparisons end there I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 09, 2011, 03:25:57 PM
Thank God.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:22:36 PM
I have gotten the impression that Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Borgia might be the inspiration and/or dummy lure for Sansa and Joffrey... at least the names...

Jaime is a Spanish/Aragonese name too. I think Lannisters have names from the region - but the comparisons end there I think.

Cersei Lannister = Cesare Borgia?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 09, 2011, 03:27:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 09, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).
Haven't gotten that far yet.  I'm only just finishing the first book.

The is a fully spoilered zone, sorry.
I'm fine with spoilers, just commenting that I can't weigh in one way or the other as I haven't gotten that far in the reading yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 03:39:23 PM
Of course, while it is easy to bad on Catelyn, Jaime was just as bad, with his idiotic confronting of Ned in the streets of Kings Landing. That was not part of anyone's plan either, so far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 03:48:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2011, 03:39:23 PM
Of course, while it is easy to bad on Catelyn, Jaime was just as bad, with his idiotic confronting of Ned in the streets of Kings Landing. That was not part of anyone's plan either, so far as I can tell.

Or tossing little boys out of windows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 09, 2011, 04:03:53 PM
So far with the series I'm not seeing so much of where the budget was spent. How are they spending $15million an episode for just talking? Not many flashy graphics to be seen and the cities seem rather sparse so far. Just not getting where the money went. The joust looked rather low budget and amateurish even.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 04:11:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2011, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Not sure that is accurate.  Ned fought and succeeded in the civil war which itself had shifting loyalties. 
Not sure that is accurate.  Except for the Lannister strike for the throne at the end, the war seemed pretty straightforward.

The war was only "straightforward" in the sense that the rebels wanted to end the rule of the King.  But who was for them or against them at any given time was anything but straightforward.  There were split of loyalty within houses and well of shifts of loyalty other than the Lannisters.  It took over a year and multiple battles to finally decide the issue.

It is said the War of Roses was used as an inspiration and the Book does a good job of capturing the uncertainty of who is loyal to whom both during and after the rebellion.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 09, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 09, 2011, 04:03:53 PM
So far with the series I'm not seeing so much of where the budget was spent. How are they spending $15million an episode for just talking? Not many flashy graphics to be seen and the cities seem rather sparse so far. Just not getting where the money went. The joust looked rather low budget and amateurish even.

Where are you getting numbers of that level?  All estimates of the budget I've read say roughly 5 million an episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 09, 2011, 06:06:11 PM
Some people need to start dieing, quickly. Other then random recently knighted Irish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 09, 2011, 06:16:23 PM
Anyway, this episode had not enough Arya and too much Jon. I realize that they need to advance Jon's storyline, but he's just so boring.

Gendry looked a bit older than I imagined him.

I hope they continue the tournament in the next episode. Loras winning it and the Hound saving his ass from Gregor was somewhat of a plot point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 09, 2011, 06:45:19 PM
QuoteAnyway, this episode had not enough Arya and too much Jon. I realize that they need to advance Jon's storyline, but he's just so boring.

Gendry looked a bit older than I imagined him.

I hope they continue the tournament in the next episode. Loras winning it and the Hound saving his ass from Gregor was somewhat of a plot point.
Probally will, need some bloody action.
And of course Loras/Renly hasn't happened yet.


Quote from: Habbaku on May 09, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 09, 2011, 04:03:53 PM
So far with the series I'm not seeing so much of where the budget was spent. How are they spending $15million an episode for just talking? Not many flashy graphics to be seen and the cities seem rather sparse so far. Just not getting where the money went. The joust looked rather low budget and amateurish even.

Where are you getting numbers of that level?  All estimates of the budget I've read say roughly 5 million an episode.
ehh...true, misremembered.
Still dear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 09, 2011, 07:50:43 PM
Why is no one smart enough to see through Littlefinger?  He's a colossal douchenozzle whose intentions are frankly obvious.

He's like Warwick, without the arrogance.  Surely arrogance is not the only reason that Warwick got bitchslapped by fortune.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2011, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 12:16:42 PM
They're certainly portrayed as noble and honourable country bumpkins who can't adapt to the conniving ways of city folk. The blonde farm girl from Idaho recently come to New York City.

Ned has seen the world and has successfully overthrown a dynasty that had ruled for generations.  No mean feat.  His wife is no country Bumpkin.  That is what we first learn about them in the Book.  But then, I agree, they turn into country Bumpkins somewhere along the way.
From my recollections of the books I don't think that Ned behaved any different in that war. He and Robert want to war over honor and won in open battle, not much conniving, except on the part of the Lannisters who switched sides after it became clear who would win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 12:51:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.
I can't stop rewatching it. What is the allure of feudal loyalty?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 01:15:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 12:51:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.
I can't stop rewatching it. What is the allure of feudal loyalty?  :hmm:

It's a lost virtue.

Of course, it was never a virtue to begin with given that it was just another tool for the oppression of men, and today the masses are controlled with other types of opiates, but nevertheless..

It's an attractive type of servitude because it builds on pathos and a strict sense of honour and dignity. We all want to believe there is purpose, and we all want to believe ourselves part of it, and so we cling to whatever meaningless cause we can in order to feel important. The truth is, they live in dirt hovels so that Catelyn can feast on roast boar every night and that so called code of honour is just a way to keep them from realizing the truth of it.

Edit: But yes, I thought it was kick ass for exactly the same reason as you did.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 01:55:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 12:51:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.
I can't stop rewatching it. What is the allure of feudal loyalty?  :hmm:

In a word, it's personal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 01:59:29 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 01:15:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 12:51:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.
I can't stop rewatching it. What is the allure of feudal loyalty?  :hmm:

It's a lost virtue.

Of course, it was never a virtue to begin with given that it was just another tool for the oppression of men, and today the masses are controlled with other types of opiates, but nevertheless..

It's an attractive type of servitude because it builds on pathos and a strict sense of honour and dignity. We all want to believe there is purpose, and we all want to believe ourselves part of it, and so we cling to whatever meaningless cause we can in order to feel important. The truth is, they live in dirt hovels so that Catelyn can feast on roast boar every night and that so called code of honour is just a way to keep them from realizing the truth of it.

Edit: But yes, I thought it was kick ass for exactly the same reason as you did.  :D

While this is a very modern analysis, I think it misses the key feature of it, i.e. this being based on personal ties. This is a small word. Notice that all arguments used by Catelyn to inspire their loyalties are deeply personal: "I remember you from childhood", "We went to your wedding", etc. Even in today's world, which is deeply atomized, people still recall being charmed when they e.g. meet Obama or Bush or Carter in person, and their opinion of the said leader can improve a lot as a result of such meeting.  This is a much different type of loyalty when your leader is just speaking to you from a tv.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 02:02:05 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 09, 2011, 06:16:23 PM
Gendry looked a bit older than I imagined him.

I remembered him from the books as a young adult.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 02:24:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 01:59:29 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 01:15:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 12:51:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 09, 2011, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2011, 05:41:58 AM
Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   :cool:

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.
I can't stop rewatching it. What is the allure of feudal loyalty?  :hmm:

It's a lost virtue.

Of course, it was never a virtue to begin with given that it was just another tool for the oppression of men, and today the masses are controlled with other types of opiates, but nevertheless..

It's an attractive type of servitude because it builds on pathos and a strict sense of honour and dignity. We all want to believe there is purpose, and we all want to believe ourselves part of it, and so we cling to whatever meaningless cause we can in order to feel important. The truth is, they live in dirt hovels so that Catelyn can feast on roast boar every night and that so called code of honour is just a way to keep them from realizing the truth of it.

Edit: But yes, I thought it was kick ass for exactly the same reason as you did.  :D

While this is a very modern analysis, I think it misses the key feature of it, i.e. this being based on personal ties. This is a small word. Notice that all arguments used by Catelyn to inspire their loyalties are deeply personal: "I remember you from childhood", "We went to your wedding", etc. Even in today's world, which is deeply atomized, people still recall being charmed when they e.g. meet Obama or Bush or Carter in person, and their opinion of the said leader can improve a lot as a result of such meeting.  This is a much different type of loyalty when your leader is just speaking to you from a tv.

No doubt that a cult of personality is part of it. But it's largely founded on expectations. She's not calling for their loyalty to her, but rather to her grand father and their family name. They are expected to express loyalty to their liege lords the same way we are expected to greet eachother when we meet every day despite the fact that we already greeted eachother when we met yesterday. It's just how things are done, and even considering it (let alone questioning it) is simply beyond the realm of the reasonable. They don't necessarily actively feel a sense of loyalty to her, but to their duty as such, and their duty is to their liege lord who in turn have a duty to her. Under this system of duty they are obliged to aid her, even if of course her inspiring and rousing words play an important part in reminding them of this.

Now, this may be a deliberate construct in order to instill loyalty in subjects, or it may be a legacy ritual of tribal and hunter-gatherer societies with a beneficial (to the ruling elite) byeffect, but the end result is the same: Social control. That it's more attractive than the monetary purchase of loyalty doesn't change the underlying foundation of it, nor how ghastly ugly it is if you just peel off the thin veneer of charisma and wonder.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 03:08:39 AM
Yeah I guess I see your point. I suppose it's a sort of post-tribal/neo-tribal mentality - if we broke these rules, the sky would fall. Siegy thinks in a similar way.

Incidentally, I never thought about SOIAF this way, but based on what we discuss here, one more "Ice vs. Fire" aspect in the story is feudalism vs. "modern" society. Largely, Starks represent the feudal mindset and Lannisters represent the modern mindset (each with its own virtues and failings). Lannisters can often outsmart Starks, but Starks do get an upper hand when they manage to get the game going on feudal rules.

The King's Landing is a "modern" game board. Everything North of Riverrun is a "feudal" game board. In their feudal game board Starks only lose when they break their own rules and act in a "modern" manner (Robb dumping the Frey girl and marrying a girl he loves).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 03:29:54 AM
Concur, and I like the game board analogy. I've always thought of life in general and games and narratives in particular as puzzles in need of solutions. Render any competitive situation to its most fundamental pieces, and you will find that it is simply a case of putting the pieces in the right places and the solution finds itself. The difficulty is in understanding how the pieces fit together (and of course adapting to quickly evolving and changing rules).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 03:30:21 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 03:29:54 AM
Concur, and I like the game board analogy. I've always thought of life in general and games and narratives in particular as puzzles in need of solutions. Render any competitive situation to its most fundamental pieces, and you will find that it is simply a case of putting the pieces in the right places and the solution finds itself. The difficulty is in understanding how the pieces fit together.

How very sociopathic of you. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 03:32:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 03:30:21 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 03:29:54 AM
Concur, and I like the game board analogy. I've always thought of life in general and games and narratives in particular as puzzles in need of solutions. Render any competitive situation to its most fundamental pieces, and you will find that it is simply a case of putting the pieces in the right places and the solution finds itself. The difficulty is in understanding how the pieces fit together.

How very sociopathic of you. :P

An understandable objection.  :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 05:40:38 AM
Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 10, 2011, 05:44:52 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 05:40:38 AM
Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him.  :P

We've already established that you're not very open-minded.  :sleep:

Essentially, you have been taught that racism equals stupidity (and close-mindedness), and so you assume too much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 10, 2011, 06:29:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

Is he in the first book or not?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 10, 2011, 06:52:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 03:08:39 AMThe King's Landing is a "modern" game board. Everything North of Riverrun is a "feudal" game board. In their feudal game board Starks only lose when they break their own rules and act in a "modern" manner (Robb dumping the Frey girl and marrying a girl he loves).

the boltons flayed the rulebook then, huh?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.
They really weren't that important yet were they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 07:32:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 10, 2011, 06:29:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

Is he in the first book or not?

Not personally, but he's mentioned in connection to many things (for example, his lengthy absence from the Small Council is noted, he is said to have visited Gendry with Jon Arryn, and Ned considers him the rightful heir after he finds out about Cersei's kids).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2011, 07:43:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 03:08:39 AM
Yeah I guess I see your point. I suppose it's a sort of post-tribal/neo-tribal mentality - if we broke these rules, the sky would fall. Siegy thinks in a similar way.

Incidentally, I never thought about SOIAF this way, but based on what we discuss here, one more "Ice vs. Fire" aspect in the story is feudalism vs. "modern" society. Largely, Starks represent the feudal mindset and Lannisters represent the modern mindset (each with its own virtues and failings). Lannisters can often outsmart Starks, but Starks do get an upper hand when they manage to get the game going on feudal rules.

The King's Landing is a "modern" game board. Everything North of Riverrun is a "feudal" game board. In their feudal game board Starks only lose when they break their own rules and act in a "modern" manner (Robb dumping the Frey girl and marrying a girl he loves).

Not so sure about marrying a girl he loves, rather the slag he pops his cherry with and feels so guilty about it he marries her anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.
They really weren't that important yet were they?

Renly was very important in the first book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2011, 07:43:50 AM
Not so sure about marrying a girl he loves, rather the slag he pops his cherry with and feels so guilty about it he marries her anyway.

And IIRC there are indications that he was set up for it by Tywin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 10, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.
They really weren't that important yet were they?

Renly was very important in the first book.
Very? :yeahright:  I'm just about done with the first book, and he is mentioned less than Stannis I think, though he does actually appear in person.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
Also, I wanna say that the guy who plays Theon is hot. And he always struck me as a little bitch in the books, so he is well cast. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2011, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2011, 07:43:50 AM
Not so sure about marrying a girl he loves, rather the slag he pops his cherry with and feels so guilty about it he marries her anyway.

And IIRC there are indications that he was set up for it by Tywin.

Like what?
I totally missed that. Seemed to just be bad luck to me that he got injured and things went rather Back to the Future...only they actually did do it...and it wasn't his mother.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 03:20:23 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 10, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
Very?

Very.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 10, 2011, 03:26:51 PM
Renly and Loras are the most important characters in the series!

/marty
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 05:40:38 AM
Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him.  :P

Modern in the sense of an early 20th century crude Marxist-materialistic analysis, yes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2011, 04:03:29 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 10, 2011, 03:26:51 PM
Renly and Loras are the most important characters in the series!

/marty

Can we agree they are the most important characters who have gay man-on-man sex on the set?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 06:49:24 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.
They really weren't that important yet were they?

Renly was very important in the first book.
I'm talking about the first 40%, he was more important in the 2nd half IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 06:50:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 05:40:38 AM
Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him.  :P

Modern in the sense of an early 20th century crude Marxist-materialistic analysis, yes.
Slargos is a creature of the 19th century?

What's your analysis of the subject.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 07:02:23 PM
 :)
http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/05/10/game-of-thrones-ratings-rise-again/
QuoteGame of Thrones
May 10 2011 11:06 AM ET

'Game of Thrones' ratings rise again

HBO's Game of Thrones inched upward in the ratings for the second week in a row. The 9 p.m. airing was seen by 2.5 million viewers, up slightly from last week's 2.4 million, with a total of 3.1 million for the night including the repeat. Season to date, Thrones is averaging 8.3 million once all repeats and platforms are counted.

This is yet another positive sign for the fantasy series, climbing in the numbers despite the show's story pace lessening a bit the previous week. The show's action kicks into high gear starting on Sunday's fifth episode, which could result in Thrones gaining even more traction in the weeks to come, just like True Blood its first year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 09:33:01 PM
HBO has been taken over by the Apple fanatics!  :mad:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-go-mobile-app-gets-187077
QuoteThe executive on Tuesday also said that HBO Go will exclusively make available the following week's episode of new HBO hit Game of Thrones right after the May 22 episode, which ends with a cliffhanger that Kessler said will entice fans to immediately see what happens next. The move is part of a plan to offer exclusive content windows on HBO Go to "encourage registration" of users for the service, he said.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 09:53:12 PM
:hmm:  Trying to recall what the cliffhanger could be.  The result of Ned's scrap with Jaime, perhaps?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 10:11:14 PM
Lady Gaga for Melisandre! :yes:
http://www.thewrap.com/tv/column-post/game-thrones-hits-new-series-high-27234
Quote
    Now if only Lady Gaga would guest-star on "Game of Thrones," HBO would have an unstoppable ratings blockbuster -- and a very freaky bit of programming -- on its hands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 10, 2011, 10:12:25 PM
I thought Melisandre was supposed to be hott?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 10:18:50 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 10:11:14 PM
Lady Gaga for Melisandre!

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 10:21:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 10, 2011, 10:12:25 PM
I thought Melisandre was supposed to be hott?
True, but she was the most bizarre female character I could think of off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 10, 2011, 10:23:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 09:53:12 PM
:hmm:  Trying to recall what the cliffhanger could be.  The result of Ned's scrap with Jaime, perhaps?

Perhaps with you thinking Ned has been killed?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 10:21:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 10, 2011, 10:12:25 PM
I thought Melisandre was supposed to be hott?
True, but she was the most bizarre female character I could think of off the top of my head.

Bizarre in actions and characterization, maybe, but not appearance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 11, 2011, 12:18:04 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 10, 2011, 05:40:38 AM
Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him.  :P

Modern in the sense of an early 20th century crude Marxist-materialistic analysis, yes.

I am rubber, you are glue.

Or at least you would be if there was any justice to the world.

You're getting very boorish lately. I expect you have a better explanation, then?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2011, 01:01:00 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cartographersguild.com%2Ffeature%2FWesterosMap.jpg&hash=fe496ff2aab03eae0fc0895ce67621962c6510a9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 11, 2011, 01:32:44 AM
The White Walkers are Scots, aren't they?

Dooooooorn Rocco!

Those poor sheepshaggers can't catch a break.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 01:44:38 AM
So, next week, we are going to see TEH GHEY, right? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 01:52:55 AM
You'll see one of the gays, yes.

It's a shame we have to wait so long to see either of them come to harm, but I suppose it's worth the wait.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 03:16:20 AM
We have already seen one of the gays. I just mean we get told for the first time he is gay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 11, 2011, 03:55:10 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 10, 2011, 09:53:12 PM
:hmm:  Trying to recall what the cliffhanger could be.  The result of Ned's scrap with Jaime, perhaps?

The episode is called "A Golden Crown", so my bet would be Viserys getting whacked.

This is the synopsis:

QuoteViserys demands that Drogo pay him his debts. Ned is left ruling the kingdom while Robert goes to hunt.

Either that or Robert getting gored during the hunt. Or both things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 11, 2011, 04:49:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2011, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2011, 07:43:50 AM
Not so sure about marrying a girl he loves, rather the slag he pops his cherry with and feels so guilty about it he marries her anyway.

And IIRC there are indications that he was set up for it by Tywin.

Like what?
I totally missed that. Seemed to just be bad luck to me that he got injured and things went rather Back to the Future...only they actually did do it...and it wasn't his mother.

IIRC in the fourth book it's revealed that her mother was negotiating with Tywin and was giving her potions against pregnancy. So it's possible that Tywin had some hand in arranging for Robb to meet Jeyne.

Not to mention that House Westerling is sworn to the Lannisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 11, 2011, 05:12:52 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 11, 2011, 04:49:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2011, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 10, 2011, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2011, 07:43:50 AM
Not so sure about marrying a girl he loves, rather the slag he pops his cherry with and feels so guilty about it he marries her anyway.

And IIRC there are indications that he was set up for it by Tywin.

Like what?
I totally missed that. Seemed to just be bad luck to me that he got injured and things went rather Back to the Future...only they actually did do it...and it wasn't his mother.

IIRC in the fourth book it's revealed that her mother was negotiating with Tywin and was giving her potions against pregnancy. So it's possible that Tywin had some hand in arranging for Robb to meet Jeyne.

Not to mention that House Westerling is sworn to the Lannisters.

And was afterwards rewarded for their services to the Lannister cause.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 06:02:13 AM
Next episode is Wolf and Lion (or some such) and not Golden Crown.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 11, 2011, 06:07:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 06:02:13 AM
Next episode is Wolf and Lion (or some such) and not Golden Crown.  :)

Yup, and it's going to be where the Ned-Jaime confrontation is going to happen, if the previews are faithful. We were talking about the cliffhanger for the sixth episode, that is considered to be so intense as to want to make people sign up for that HBO thingie where you'd be able to watch the seventh episode right afterwards.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 11, 2011, 06:07:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 06:02:13 AM
Next episode is Wolf and Lion (or some such) and not Golden Crown.  :)

Yup, and it's going to be where the Ned-Jaime confrontation is going to happen, if the previews are faithful. We were talking about the cliffhanger for the sixth episode, that is considered to be so intense as to want to make people sign up for that HBO thingie where you'd be able to watch the seventh episode right afterwards.  ;)
Oh I see. Maybe it will be: gay sex? :P

My personal guess though: Ned's execution.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 11, 2011, 03:55:10 AM
The episode is called "A Golden Crown", so my bet would be Viserys getting whacked.

That's not exactly a cliffhanger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2011, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 11, 2011, 06:07:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2011, 06:02:13 AM
Next episode is Wolf and Lion (or some such) and not Golden Crown.  :)

Yup, and it's going to be where the Ned-Jaime confrontation is going to happen, if the previews are faithful. We were talking about the cliffhanger for the sixth episode, that is considered to be so intense as to want to make people sign up for that HBO thingie where you'd be able to watch the seventh episode right afterwards.  ;)
Oh I see. Maybe it will be: gay sex? :P

My personal guess though: Ned's execution.

Titles

5      The Wolf and the Lion"    
6    "A Golden Crown"
7    "You Win or You Die"        
8    "The Pointy End"    
9    "Baelor"        
10    "Fire and Blood"

So Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.

Robert's probably wounded at the end of 6.

Spoilerish synapsis for 8-10
http://www.spoilertv.com/2011/05/true-blood-and-game-of-thrones-june.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 11, 2011, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 10, 2011, 10:12:25 PM
I thought Melisandre was supposed to be hott?

I can't help think that this might be related to listening to an audiobook, but I see her with the body and dress sense of Elvira, the face and hair (but browner) of a 40is Angelica Houston and the voice of a heavy smoker.

I suppose she might be hott, but chicks that talk religion deflate my cock.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 11, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

Does the war happen in book 1?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 11, 2011, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 11, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

Does the war happen in book 1?
I'm sure there's some bits  of it, the deal with the Freys, the battle in the forest where Jamie gets caught, king of the north, etc...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

That's what the second season is for...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 11, 2011, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 11, 2011, 12:18:04 AM
You're getting very boorish lately. I expect you have a better explanation, then?

To suggest that an entire complex social system can be reduced to a simple mechanism for exploitation by a ruling class is the very definition of a crude Marxist analysis. Your are correct that I could have put it more politely. 

As to the second question, I think we would have to define the parameters of the feudal system that is being addressed.  The one that appears in the Martin novels is too poorly specified to really discuss.  AFAIK there are some suggestions concerning how it works -- landed property seems to be main source of wealth for the "lords" other than Lannisters and their mines and a few others that collect tolls and customs; there are feudal rights (eg hunting); and the land appears to be tilled by a mix of free peasants and yeomanry.  But the details are missing - the precise nature of noble status - what it denotes and how one acheives it is unclear, as is the precise nature of peasant tenure and their frequencies.  It does appear there is considerable opportunity for both upward and downward mobility.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 11, 2011, 07:06:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

That's what the second season is for...
They're not going to cover the whole of GoT?
hmm....makes sense....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 11, 2011, 01:29:08 PM


I suppose she might be hott, but chicks that talk religion deflate my cock.
But in this world there are definitely supernatural forces at work, she might be on to something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2011, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 11, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

Does the war happen in book 1?
I'm sure there's some bits  of it, the deal with the Freys, the battle in the forest where Jamie gets caught, king of the north, etc...
That synapsis I linked makes it look we'll see that battle in episode 9.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 11:44:28 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 07:06:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

That's what the second season is for...
They're not going to cover the whole of GoT?
hmm....makes sense....

:huh:  Okay, at this point I have no idea what you're asking.  They are covering the entirety of GoT (the first novel in the Song of Ice and Fire series).  The entire series is not being stuffed into 10 episodes.  There wasn't an incredibly large amount of the war (in fact, just a series of early skirmishes and one important battle) in the first book, all of which can easily be covered in the last 3 episodes of the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2011, 01:05:24 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2F10y2wlk.gif&hash=bba3161194478f170f2a22f44d58e16d21719592)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 12, 2011, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 11, 2011, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 11, 2011, 12:18:04 AM
You're getting very boorish lately. I expect you have a better explanation, then?

To suggest that an entire complex social system can be reduced to a simple mechanism for exploitation by a ruling class is the very definition of a crude Marxist analysis. Your are correct that I could have put it more politely. 

Perhaps it IS crude. Does that make it incorrect?

What value does a code of social conduct have other than as a tool to safeguard existing social hierarchies in a manner that keeps bloodshed on an acceptable and predictable level?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2011, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2011, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 11, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

Does the war happen in book 1?
I'm sure there's some bits  of it, the deal with the Freys, the battle in the forest where Jamie gets caught, king of the north, etc...
That synapsis I linked makes it look we'll see that battle in episode 9.

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2011, 05:20:08 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 11:44:28 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 07:06:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 11, 2011, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 11, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
QuoteSo Drogo dies in 10, Ned in 9, 8 Araya Escapes, 7 Robert dies, 6 Viserys dies, Ned and Jamie Fight.
Lame having Ned die so late, won't give us much of the war starting up.

That's what the second season is for...
They're not going to cover the whole of GoT?
hmm....makes sense....

:huh:  Okay, at this point I have no idea what you're asking.  They are covering the entirety of GoT (the first novel in the Song of Ice and Fire series).  The entire series is not being stuffed into 10 episodes.  There wasn't an incredibly large amount of the war (in fact, just a series of early skirmishes and one important battle) in the first book, all of which can easily be covered in the last 3 episodes of the season.
But if Ned is being killed in the 9th episode then that just leaves one episode for the war.
It seemed you were saying they were splitting GoT and having the second series not purely as the second book but the end of GoT too. This would let them go out on what they think is more of a cliffhanger and solve the problem of 'what if things catch up with George?'
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2011, 05:24:33 AM
Pay attention, that main battle from Game of Thrones happens in episode 9.

As a note, whenever a Brit say "series" instead of season I'm overcome with rage and the desire to punch him in the face.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 12, 2011, 06:11:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2011, 05:24:33 AM
Pay attention, that main battle from Game of Thrones happens in episode 9.

As a note, whenever a Brit say "series" instead of season I'm overcome with rage and the desire to punch him in the face.

Both of you need a good beating with a slapjack.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 12, 2011, 03:54:16 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 12, 2011, 01:11:57 AM
Perhaps it IS crude. Does that make it incorrect?

Yes, because it misses many essential aspects of the phenomenon and exaggerates one particular dimension.

QuoteWhat value does a code of social conduct have other than as a tool to safeguard existing social hierarchies in a manner that keeps bloodshed on an acceptable and predictable level?

First of all, you've just changed your characterization.  Second "feudalism" is far more than just a code of social conduct.  Third, codes of social conduct can serve many potential values or purposes.  Fourth - posing the question in terms of "value" artificially narrows the inquiry - I would think that would be particularly apparent for someone claiming to be a moral relativist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 12, 2011, 04:38:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 12, 2011, 03:54:16 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 12, 2011, 01:11:57 AM
Perhaps it IS crude. Does that make it incorrect?

Yes, because it misses many essential aspects of the phenomenon and exaggerates one particular dimension.

QuoteWhat value does a code of social conduct have other than as a tool to safeguard existing social hierarchies in a manner that keeps bloodshed on an acceptable and predictable level?

First of all, you've just changed your characterization.  Second "feudalism" is far more than just a code of social conduct.  Third, codes of social conduct can serve many potential values or purposes.  Fourth - posing the question in terms of "value" artificially narrows the inquiry - I would think that would be particularly apparent for someone claiming to be a moral relativist.

I would try to reason with you, but I doubt we'd get anywhere.

I'd love to hear you explain how Feudalism (or any political system you can think of) is anything more than a tool to enforce the rule of one individual or group of individuals over others. In essence the establishment of, and safeguarding of, a social hierarchy.

You can bitch all you like about the complexity of a modern car, but ultimately it shares the fundamental purpose of legs, that which is transportation from point A to point B.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 12, 2011, 04:38:57 PM
I'd love to hear you explain how Feudalism (or any political system you can think of) is anything more than a tool to enforce the rule of one individual or group of individuals over others.
Well, there's my Languish "WTF????  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:" moment for the day!  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 12, 2011, 04:54:40 PM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2011, 09:06:12 PM
I thought the Sword of Morning was the best knight that Bran Stark knew?  No melee unfortunately, but that was to be expected I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzM_TQqlY3w
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 12, 2011, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2011, 09:06:12 PM
I thought the Sword of Morning was the best knight that Bran Stark knew?  No melee unfortunately, but that was to be expected I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzM_TQqlY3w

Brandon Stark isn't Ned's dad--he was his brother.  I don't believe Rickard (his father) is on record anywhere saying who he thought the best was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2011, 09:18:40 PM
You are correct, it's been too long since I've read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 05:40:14 AM
Ive been speculating that Rhaegar might still be alive and he might be hiding as mance rayder, this is the argument that I made for it. The best argument against is of course Martin saying that Rhaegars body was cremated after the Trident. Assuming that Rhaegar has his Patrocolus and is alive after the battle, is there anything wrong with my reasoning?

QuoteI'd like to suggest an alternative for Rhaegar being alive. I'd like to start, not with Rhaegar himself, or some imposter/confederate donning his armor at the trident and dying in his place. I'd like to start with the three heads of the Dragon. Assuming R+L=J is true then I'd like to suggest some common features for Jon and Dany.

- Mother dead in childbirth.
- Birth happens during a Baratheon attack.
- Life saved by honourable man.
- Raised in exile.
- Mentored by a Mormont.
- Special relationship with house Symbol.
- Earning great success on own merit from nothing.

I'd like to suggest that the son of Mance Rayder is ready to fill all these steps as well.

- Mother dead in childbirth.
- Birth happens during a Baratheon attack.
- Life saved by Jon Snow.
- To be raised in exile from homeland.
- Still no Mormont mentor
- What is the free folk Symbol?
- No great deeds yet

Mance Rayders son fits the pattern set by Dany and Jon when they were at the same stage.

Then there is the issue of Mance and Rhaegar, they don't look similar. Rhaegar has a striking look with silver hair and purple eyes, while Mance is described as looking unremarkable. However, I think this might either be explained by living 15 years north of the wall or a use for the plot device of the Faceless men introduced with Jaqen H'ghar.

The other issue is the origin story given to Mance Rayder by the Halfhand. The Halfhand does say that Mance was the best Raider they ever had, which fits with the stories of Rhaegars ability to excel at anything he did. The Halfhand might have been mis-informed by Mance or even Lord Commander Mormont (in collusion with Jorah and even Ned Stark to preserve the targaryen blood).

Then there is the personality. Both Mance and Rhaegar are of the same age, both lovers of music and lore rather than great fighters, both jacks of all trades.

The babe is still too young to have done anything, but why is the babe in the book at all? To provide a source of kings blood at the wall? If the kid has kings blood, then so does mance, so this seems a hollow plot point. To provide Sam with a bastard to get gilly to the south? Gilly's own kid serves this purpose just as well.

Naturally this is just speculation. But if you find Maege Mormont or Jorah Mormont anywhere close to the Tarley Holdfast of Horn Hill where Gilly and Mance's heir are then you can take this idea more seriously.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2011, 05:45:19 AM
Nah.
Would be rather crappy for him to be still alive only to then die as he tries to attack the wall (he did die right? Or is he still a prisoner? Cannot recall)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 06:05:38 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 11, 2011, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 11, 2011, 12:18:04 AM
You're getting very boorish lately. I expect you have a better explanation, then?

To suggest that an entire complex social system can be reduced to a simple mechanism for exploitation by a ruling class is the very definition of a crude Marxist analysis. Your are correct that I could have put it more politely. 

As to the second question, I think we would have to define the parameters of the feudal system that is being addressed.  The one that appears in the Martin novels is too poorly specified to really discuss.  AFAIK there are some suggestions concerning how it works -- landed property seems to be main source of wealth for the "lords" other than Lannisters and their mines and a few others that collect tolls and customs; there are feudal rights (eg hunting); and the land appears to be tilled by a mix of free peasants and yeomanry.  But the details are missing - the precise nature of noble status - what it denotes and how one acheives it is unclear, as is the precise nature of peasant tenure and their frequencies.  It does appear there is considerable opportunity for both upward and downward mobility.

In "A Clash of Kings" Bran and Maester Luwyn hold court where they get reports and discuss harvests being set aside for winter not only for winterfell but for all the bannermen in their holdfasts. They comment on the ammounts set aside and in a few cases order some lord to set aside more. So obviously the lords do have rights to portions of the harvest, which is just like feudal lords did have. Peasants (either individually or as commons) would be allowed to work land and then pay either a portion or a fixed ammount of their produce to the lord holding the land.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 06:09:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 05:45:19 AM
Nah.
Would be rather crappy for him to be still alive only to then die as he tries to attack the wall (he did die right? Or is he still a prisoner? Cannot recall)

Stannis holds Rayder as a hostage while the Night Watch want to execute him as a deserter. Stannis might still kill Mance for blood for Melisandre's blood magic (the royal blood of edric storm being used earlier to cast a spell on Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon and Balon Greyjoy, which was followed shortly by the death of all three). That is why Jon smuggles Mance's son (in my theory, his half brother) to Horn Hill with Gilly and Samwell Tarly. Mance styles himself "The King Beyond the Wall" and thus his blood might count for royal blood in blood magic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Holy crap! Semi-canonical world map!

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/05/12/game-of-thrones/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2mca3jhrjcsa8.cloudfront.net%2Ftv%2F2011%2Fgame_of_thrones%2Finterview%2Fgot_map.jpg&hash=c99247b6c83f0494f84a70be0e01a4373a56b347)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:52:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F27.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lk41ddZW0G1qch9jao1_500.jpg&hash=4ee9449ef745f94dba11411592757aaa7de61b1b)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 07:48:30 AM
Rhaegar being alive would be the biggest, dumbest, and most idiotic Deus Ex Bullshitina since the ending of BSG.

viking, have you been possessed by Timmay or something???
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 08:21:17 AM
Are we all sure the Mad King is actually dead?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 08:26:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 08:21:17 AM
Are we all sure the Mad King is actually dead?

I have a theory that the Ned is actually the Mad King, and he isn't dead either.

In fact, none of them are dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 08:29:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 08:26:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 08:21:17 AM
Are we all sure the Mad King is actually dead?

I have a theory that the Ned is actually the Mad King, and he isn't dead either.

In fact, none of them are dead.

Share!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 13, 2011, 08:33:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 08:26:21 AMIn fact, none of them are dead.

And at the same time, they've all been dead all along. It was all a dream!!!!!11111eleven
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 13, 2011, 08:33:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 08:26:21 AMIn fact, none of them are dead.

And at the same time, they've all been dead all along. It was all a dream!!!!!11111eleven

No. Actually none of them have actually existed all along. It's all in the head of some crazy old coot that dresses like a Train engineer & we're all the god damn enablers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Holy crap! Semi-canonical world map!

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/05/12/game-of-thrones/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp%3A%2Fca3jhrjcsa8.cloudfront.net%2Ftv%2F2011%2Fgame_of_thrones%2Finterview%2Fgot_map.jpg&hash=4e01bdd31f3cc534edbc17345a1c0f034bb16d13)


:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 08:48:33 AM
There's no scale, tho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Holy crap! Semi-canonical world map!

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/05/12/game-of-thrones/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp%3A%2Fca3jhrjcsa8.cloudfront.net%2Ftv%2F2011%2Fgame_of_thrones%2Finterview%2Fgot_map.jpg&hash=4e01bdd31f3cc534edbc17345a1c0f034bb16d13)


:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.
It might not be a problem getting there, but the inhabitants might be cannibals or monsters or something nasty.

There's a scale on the Westeros map from the page before, it'll give you some idea. I'd say it's about 900-1200 miles at the narrow points.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?

Because the Dragon has three heads. Dany and Jon makes 2. Plus Mance Rayders apparent plot armor must have a point of some sorts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 13, 2011, 10:44:42 AM
But head #3 is Bran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:45:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?

Because the Dragon has three heads. Dany and Jon makes 2. Plus Mance Rayders apparent plot armor must have a point of some sorts.
If there's another Targ running around it makes way more sense for Tyrion to actually not be Tywin's son then for Rhaegar to be alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?

Because the Dragon has three heads. Dany and Jon makes 2. Plus Mance Rayders apparent plot armor must have a point of some sorts.

Yeah, the Dragon has three heads, so it would be totally impossible for there to only be two, or for a dragon to die, or for any number of other things to happen such that there does not need to be three actual Taergaeryn riders.

I sure hope Martin does not feel nearly as enslaved to this kind of "it must be this way" mythos as his readers are...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:45:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?

Because the Dragon has three heads. Dany and Jon makes 2. Plus Mance Rayders apparent plot armor must have a point of some sorts.
If there's another Targ running around it makes way more sense for Tyrion to actually not be Tywin's son then for Rhaegar to be alive.

The case has been made that Tyrion is a result of Mad King Aerys (three years after the defiance of duskendale) cuckolding Tywin Lannister with Joanna producing Tyrion. Which is the true reason behind Tywin resigning as the Kings Hand, not Aerys rejection of Cersei for Rhaegar. This is supported by Tyrions fondness for dragons.

If Rhaegar is Tyrions father then Rhaegar was 13 when the deed was done.

This might explain why Jamie is made a Kingsguard so young, since Aerys might want a hostage to secure the life of his bastard son Tyrion "Hill". But, then again, he might want that regardless.

I'm not asserting that Rhaegar is alive, I'm pondering if he might.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 11:18:02 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?

Because the Dragon has three heads. Dany and Jon makes 2. Plus Mance Rayders apparent plot armor must have a point of some sorts.

Yeah, the Dragon has three heads, so it would be totally impossible for there to only be two, or for a dragon to die, or for any number of other things to happen such that there does not need to be three actual Taergaeryn riders.

I sure hope Martin does not feel nearly as enslaved to this kind of "it must be this way" mythos as his readers are...

Martin introduced the Azor Ahai, "The Prince that was Promised" prophecy. I can't think of any prophesy in literature which has not come true (in a twisted way though).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 13, 2011, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.
It might not be a problem getting there, but the inhabitants might be cannibals or monsters or something nasty.

There's a scale on the Westeros map from the page before, it'll give you some idea. I'd say it's about 900-1200 miles at the narrow points.
The sunset sea has never been crossed. At least that's what the ironmen (I think it was Victarion) believe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 13, 2011, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.
It might not be a problem getting there, but the inhabitants might be cannibals or monsters or something nasty.

There's a scale on the Westeros map from the page before, it'll give you some idea. I'd say it's about 900-1200 miles at the narrow points.
The sunset sea has never been crossed. At least that's what the ironmen (I think it was Victarion) believe.

I'm saying it's probably been crossed, just that no one's returned alive because of the inhabitants they run into.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 11:51:25 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 11:14:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:45:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
I agree. Why would he be alive anyway?

Because the Dragon has three heads. Dany and Jon makes 2. Plus Mance Rayders apparent plot armor must have a point of some sorts.
If there's another Targ running around it makes way more sense for Tyrion to actually not be Tywin's son then for Rhaegar to be alive.

The case has been made that Tyrion is a result of Mad King Aerys (three years after the defiance of duskendale) cuckolding Tywin Lannister with Joanna producing Tyrion. Which is the true reason behind Tywin resigning as the Kings Hand, not Aerys rejection of Cersei for Rhaegar. This is supported by Tyrions fondness for dragons.

If Rhaegar is Tyrions father then Rhaegar was 13 when the deed was done.

This might explain why Jamie is made a Kingsguard so young, since Aerys might want a hostage to secure the life of his bastard son Tyrion "Hill". But, then again, he might want that regardless.

I'm not asserting that Rhaegar is alive, I'm pondering if he might.
While I doubt Tyrion is anyone's son but Tywin, I just think it's far more likely that he'd turn out to be Aerys bastard than for Rhaegar to still be alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 11:57:49 AM
I would not care to argue about whether Tyrion being someones son other than Tywins makes sense or not, so much as I would say it would be shitty writing to pull something like that out of Martins ass.

John Snaw's parentage has been left very unclear, and that is clearly an intended mystery. Not only would yanking something like this out of his ass be poor writing, how could you do it in such a manner that it would actually make sense as a plot point? If Tyrion was a bastard, how could that ever even be revealed at this point?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2011, 12:17:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 13, 2011, 06:05:38 AM
In "A Clash of Kings" Bran and Maester Luwyn hold court where they get reports and discuss harvests being set aside for winter not only for winterfell but for all the bannermen in their holdfasts. They comment on the ammounts set aside and in a few cases order some lord to set aside more. So obviously the lords do have rights to portions of the harvest, which is just like feudal lords did have. Peasants (either individually or as commons) would be allowed to work land and then pay either a portion or a fixed ammount of their produce to the lord holding the land.

The "winters" are quasi-supernatural phenonema that last for years and are particularly brutal in the north, where regular farming during the winter would presumably be impossible.  Therefore, there must be some mechanism for setting aside food reserves for the winter.  All this passage indicates is that the lords are in charge of overseeing and implementing this process.  It doesn't indicate a general right to consume produce, and it doesn't indicate how subsequent distribution is to be made.   It is silent as to the institutional "rules" that make up the process and the nature of the lords property rights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2011, 12:19:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Holy crap! Semi-canonical world map!

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/05/12/game-of-thrones/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp%3A%2Fca3jhrjcsa8.cloudfront.net%2Ftv%2F2011%2Fgame_of_thrones%2Finterview%2Fgot_map.jpg&hash=4e01bdd31f3cc534edbc17345a1c0f034bb16d13)


:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.
It might not be a problem getting there, but the inhabitants might be cannibals or monsters or something nasty.

There's a scale on the Westeros map from the page before, it'll give you some idea. I'd say it's about 900-1200 miles at the narrow points.

People have been to Ashai before no problem- they went eastwards though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 13, 2011, 02:55:26 PM
Jesus Christ can you stop quoting that picture?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 13, 2011, 02:55:57 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 13, 2011, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.
It might not be a problem getting there, but the inhabitants might be cannibals or monsters or something nasty.

There's a scale on the Westeros map from the page before, it'll give you some idea. I'd say it's about 900-1200 miles at the narrow points.
The sunset sea has never been crossed. At least that's what the ironmen (I think it was Victarion) believe.

I'm saying it's probably been crossed, just that no one's returned alive because of the inhabitants they run into.

IIRC in the 4th book, during the Ironmen's Kingsmoot one of the minor candidates for the title of king that nobody pays any attention to is some guy from one of the westernmost isles that claims to know a route to new land westwards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 13, 2011, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Holy crap! Semi-canonical world map!

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/05/12/game-of-thrones/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp%3A%2Fca3jhrjcsa8.cloudfront.net%2Ftv%2F2011%2Fgame_of_thrones%2Finterview%2Fgot_map.jpg&hash=4e01bdd31f3cc534edbc17345a1c0f034bb16d13)


:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.

It's actually likely that Euron Greyjoy had sailed that way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 11:57:49 AM
I would not care to argue about whether Tyrion being someones son other than Tywins makes sense or not, so much as I would say it would be shitty writing to pull something like that out of Martins ass.

John Snaw's parentage has been left very unclear, and that is clearly an intended mystery. Not only would yanking something like this out of his ass be poor writing, how could you do it in such a manner that it would actually make sense as a plot point? If Tyrion was a bastard, how could that ever even be revealed at this point?

Actually, hints of Tyrion being "more than he seems" are dropped all over the place, although they are much more subtle. From his affinity with dragons to him "standing tall as a King" in some passage, it's there. Of course, it is more of a shadow of a shadow, but it wouldn't be entirely surprising or deus ex machina.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 13, 2011, 05:23:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 11:57:49 AM
I would not care to argue about whether Tyrion being someones son other than Tywins makes sense or not, so much as I would say it would be shitty writing to pull something like that out of Martins ass.

John Snaw's parentage has been left very unclear, and that is clearly an intended mystery. Not only would yanking something like this out of his ass be poor writing, how could you do it in such a manner that it would actually make sense as a plot point? If Tyrion was a bastard, how could that ever even be revealed at this point?

Actually, hints of Tyrion being "more than he seems" are dropped all over the place, although they are much more subtle. From his affinity with dragons to him "standing tall as a King" in some passage, it's there. Of course, it is more of a shadow of a shadow, but it wouldn't be entirely surprising or deus ex machina.

There's also Tywin saying "you are no son of mine" before he's shot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 13, 2011, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 13, 2011, 05:23:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2011, 11:57:49 AM
I would not care to argue about whether Tyrion being someones son other than Tywins makes sense or not, so much as I would say it would be shitty writing to pull something like that out of Martins ass.

John Snaw's parentage has been left very unclear, and that is clearly an intended mystery. Not only would yanking something like this out of his ass be poor writing, how could you do it in such a manner that it would actually make sense as a plot point? If Tyrion was a bastard, how could that ever even be revealed at this point?

Actually, hints of Tyrion being "more than he seems" are dropped all over the place, although they are much more subtle. From his affinity with dragons to him "standing tall as a King" in some passage, it's there. Of course, it is more of a shadow of a shadow, but it wouldn't be entirely surprising or deus ex machina.

There's also Tywin saying "you are no son of mine" before he's shot.

Tywin also uses the argument that Tyrion is his son when Jamie is imprisoned at Riverrun and Cersei needs a Hand to bitchslap her. But his mother did die in childbirth, so that suggests Targaryen parentage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 13, 2011, 06:23:42 PM
It would be like Tywin to refuse to admit to anyone that he was cuckolded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2011, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 13, 2011, 06:23:42 PM
It would be like Tywin to refuse to admit to anyone that he was cuckolded.
It would be like anyone near him to never admit that they were raped.  He would be the type to blame the victim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 13, 2011, 06:55:32 PM
I hope the Others kill every last motherfucker in Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 13, 2011, 07:01:26 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 13, 2011, 05:19:36 PM
It's actually likely that Euron Greyjoy had sailed that way.
I always assumed he had, until I reread the fourth book recently. Now that I think about it, it may have been Damphair at the kingsmoot that said that. Anyway, everyone there seemed think he had sailed east.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 14, 2011, 06:00:23 PM
I found this speculative article about Robb's potential heir to be an interesting read :

http://www.towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/08/02_heir_to_the_north/index.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 14, 2011, 06:56:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 14, 2011, 06:00:23 PM
I found this speculative article about Robb's potential heir to be an interesting read :

http://www.towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/08/02_heir_to_the_north/index.html

Is there any indication that Jeyne Westerling was aware that her mother was giving her a contraceptive and managed to avoid drinking it. Jayne is obviously loyal to Robb, her parents less so. The westerling boy also released greywind at the twins. So the squire and the young queen might still stay loyal to the north.

I just want to see if anybody bothers to ressurect robb while greywind's head is stitched onto his.

In more serious speculation (not my rather improbably Rhaegar=Mance speculation), What are the odds that Jon dies and is resurrected by Melisandre freeing him from his oath to the nights watch?

QuoteNight gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2011, 05:50:41 AM
I really suspect someone to impregnate Jayne.
Probally not Robb, but someone, and say Robb did it.

QuoteJesus Christ can you stop quoting that picture?
:huh:
Its not quoting, its just a link.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 15, 2011, 09:25:47 PM
You all suck.
Bought first book on iPhone so have something to read for month I'm away on location.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:27:37 PM
Quote from: katmai on May 15, 2011, 09:25:47 PM
You all suck.
Bought first book on iPhone so have something to read for month I'm away on location.


Well don't read this thread then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 15, 2011, 09:38:06 PM
Oh I stopped last week, only opened it to post that last message. Will re-read thread after all the books, Von moltkes drives willing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 15, 2011, 09:57:21 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

The cities are certainly walled.  But the majority of the population and, of course, the overwhelming number of farmers don't live in walled areas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 15, 2011, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: katmai on May 15, 2011, 09:25:47 PM
You all suck.
Bought first book on iPhone so have something to read for month I'm away on location.

how? I don't see it in the iBooks store. Unless you have another ap
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 15, 2011, 10:15:28 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 15, 2011, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: katmai on May 15, 2011, 09:25:47 PM
You all suck.
Bought first book on iPhone so have something to read for month I'm away on location.

how? I don't see it in the iBooks store. Unless you have another ap
IBooks has the books separate or the first 4 fir 35.99
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 15, 2011, 10:17:59 PM
Odd I can't find it either by title or by author. Tried two weeks ago and avian just now
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 15, 2011, 10:22:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 15, 2011, 10:17:59 PM
Odd I can't find it either by title or by author. Tried two weeks ago and avian just now
Maybe like Netflix, your Canadian versions just suck and you can't get it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 15, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
I guess. Maybe another company owns the publishing rights up here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 15, 2011, 11:04:12 PM
The symbolism of the ending of the fight between Jaime and Ned was pretty nice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 12:05:58 AM
Caught tonight's episode.

I assume I was supposed to be rooting for Ned over Jaime?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 12:06:49 AM
I don't know, are you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 12:11:46 AM
Not going to say until I know it's the right choice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 01:09:54 AM
Ah, the Lannistairs. It's going to be very enjoyable seeing them suffer.  :homestar:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.

Indeed most aren't. I think King's Landing and Old Town are walled, but beyond that not sure - I remember reading definitely that the town built around Winterfell is not walled - I presume in most cases it's the same.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:40:14 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 12:05:58 AM
Caught tonight's episode.

I assume I was supposed to be rooting for Ned over Jaime?

There is  no right choice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 01:40:28 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 12:05:58 AM
Caught tonight's episode.

I assume I was supposed to be rooting for Ned over Jaime?
Don't watch the 5th episode out of 10 in a series like this without watching the first 4. :bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:56:07 AM
Speaking of manscaping, I was told by my boyfriend yesterday that I look much better with a 2-3 day old beard than clean shaven. Now, I'm trying to think of a way of selling that at my work. Maybe I tell them I have a skin disease.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 02:11:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:40:14 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 12:05:58 AM
Caught tonight's episode.

I assume I was supposed to be rooting for Ned over Jaime?

There is  no right choice.

Nonsense.

There is always a right choice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 16, 2011, 02:36:49 AM
more theon :)

nice of them to throw a suckle to the gay audience too. my roommate's girlfriend left in a huff  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2011, 02:39:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:56:07 AM
manscaping,

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 05:23:35 AM
Btw, is it true that the guy who plays Theon is Lily Allen's brother? I can already picture Winterfell burning to the tune of "Fuck You" :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2011, 05:26:18 AM
Yes. Alfie Allen- The Alfie of the song.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 05:28:09 AM
Just checked and yes he is. Actually a video featuring a mash of various scenes of rape, murder and betrayal from the series to that song would be great.

"Your point of view is medieval."

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:08:52 AM
who the fuck is lilly allen?

Link me, plezz

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:10:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.

Indeed most aren't. I think King's Landing and Old Town are walled, but beyond that not sure - I remember reading definitely that the town built around Winterfell is not walled - I presume in most cases it's the same.

IIRC there are only 4 or 5 proper cities in the whole of Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:12:51 AM
this lily?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstory.nnhit.com%2Fvdo%2Fuploads%2Fpicture4%2F39.jpg&hash=94b3a508c1addc64ca339de6b83597f3190e6559)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:13:49 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:10:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.

Indeed most aren't. I think King's Landing and Old Town are walled, but beyond that not sure - I remember reading definitely that the town built around Winterfell is not walled - I presume in most cases it's the same.

IIRC there are only 4 or 5 proper cities in the whole of Westeros.

Name them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:15:52 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:08:52 AM
who the fuck is lilly allen?

Link me, plezz

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2008%2F01_02%2FalfieMOS1201_468x709.jpg&hash=6f344c30af915ee817fb8872db702d102a3e3a0f)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgOm_WJKpE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgOm_WJKpE)

How lame, they buzz stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:19:59 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:13:49 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:10:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.

Indeed most aren't. I think King's Landing and Old Town are walled, but beyond that not sure - I remember reading definitely that the town built around Winterfell is not walled - I presume in most cases it's the same.

IIRC there are only 4 or 5 proper cities in the whole of Westeros.

Name them.

King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport and two others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:21:33 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:15:52 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:08:52 AM
who the fuck is lilly allen?

Link me, plezz

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2008%2F01_02%2FalfieMOS1201_468x709.jpg&hash=6f344c30af915ee817fb8872db702d102a3e3a0f)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgOm_WJKpE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgOm_WJKpE)

How lame, they buzz stuff.


Aaaaahhh, my eyes!!!!111

Ugly!!!!!!11111

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 06:35:29 AM
To Siegy: more than 14 yo= ugly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:38:33 AM
This video is way better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSG6z_13-Q

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:43:16 AM
And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVbQxC2c3-8

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 06:52:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:19:59 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:13:49 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:10:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.

Indeed most aren't. I think King's Landing and Old Town are walled, but beyond that not sure - I remember reading definitely that the town built around Winterfell is not walled - I presume in most cases it's the same.

IIRC there are only 4 or 5 proper cities in the whole of Westeros.

Name them.

King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport and two others.
White Harbor
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:54:06 AM
Fck that bitch.

I have a new band.
Its called Lemonade Mouth, and they rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuKfEbn6b04&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO_CZkUI914

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l99DXRJoP9U

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:58:35 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 06:52:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:19:59 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:13:49 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 06:10:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 15, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
A great episode, and I had to laugh during the medieval manscaping, but really Robb?

"Sure, we can hole up in our castles, safe with our walls. But what about when the Dothraki start taking our cities?"

Really Robb? The Westerosi cities aren't walled?

He said towns.  I presume not every village is walled.

Indeed most aren't. I think King's Landing and Old Town are walled, but beyond that not sure - I remember reading definitely that the town built around Winterfell is not walled - I presume in most cases it's the same.

IIRC there are only 4 or 5 proper cities in the whole of Westeros.

Name them.

King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport and two others.
White Harbor

That's the one in the North, ruled by the Manderlys, right? Wasn't there some other called Gullsomething?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 07:01:18 AM
In order of size

Kings Landing (Baratheon)
Oldtown (Hightower)
Lannisport (Lannisters of Lannisport)
White Harbour (Manderley)/Gulltown (Grafton)


The big 5 certainly have city walls, other places like Duskendale do have town walls capable of resisting a siege. With Holdfasts and Castles in the coutryside for the small folk to hide in.  There are walls everywhere, the problem is that they are mostly wooden, something Ser Aemory Lorch and Ser Gregor Clegane take advantage of by burning them. With large granaries and root cellars for winter it seems that Westeros is well suited to resist a dothraki invasion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 16, 2011, 07:21:02 AM
This episode was Teh Ghey. Full frontal from Theon.

I wonder why everyone calls Arya a boy when she doesn't yet look like one.

Also liking Bronn. His fighting style really emphasizes that he isn't one for observing niceties.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2011, 07:22:19 AM
Under normal circumstances anyway...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 16, 2011, 07:21:02 AM
I wonder why everyone calls Arya a boy when she doesn't yet look like one.
She's dirty and wears pants in a society where girls wear dresses. Some boys have long hair in Westeros and people see what they expect to see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 07:48:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 16, 2011, 07:21:02 AM
I wonder why everyone calls Arya a boy when she doesn't yet look like one.
She's dirty and wears pants in a society where girls wear dresses. Some boys have long hair in Westeros and people see what they expect to see.

agreed, but I think it's a plot point inside her head, she acts like a boy because she refuses to be a lady. She is annoyed both when she is called a lady and when she is called a boy. I'm surprised Marty hasn't adopted Arya as his ghey character de jour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2011, 08:05:50 AM
She's a bit young to be a butch dyke at this point in the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on May 16, 2011, 08:10:44 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 12:05:58 AM
Caught tonight's episode.

I assume I was supposed to be rooting for Ned over Jaime?

Jaime, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 08:12:57 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2011, 08:05:50 AM
She's a bit young to be a butch dyke at this point in the story.

It's never stopped him before....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
I must have missed Marty's love of lesbians.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
I must have missed Marty's love of lesbians.  :huh:

I am sort of stretching his love of pretty young boys.... I'll grant you that...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 16, 2011, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
I must have missed Marty's love of lesbians.  :huh:

I am sort of stretching his love of pretty young boys.... I'll grant you that...

WTF. Aren't you confusing me with someone? I have consistenly been falling in love with guys in their early to mid 20s.

You do realize that "young boys" means kids, right? Fucking idiot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 16, 2011, 10:20:27 AM
Is Littlefingers wearing a jacket with a zipper?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 10:23:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 16, 2011, 10:20:27 AM
Is Littlefingers wearing a jacket with a zipper?

Maybe.

I like the costumes they make it really seem like another world that is sorta like Medieval Euroland but not identical.  The clothes are just a little odd but plausible like Jaime's duster.

But a metal zipper might be a little much :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 10:25:39 AM
BTW I really enjoyed the gay scene not for the creepy manscaping or BJ but because it explains a bit of what led to Renly betraying his brother.  Hope for more creepy expository pillow talk from the rainbow knights later on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 10:26:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 10:25:39 AM
BTW I really enjoyed the gay scene not for the creepy manscaping or BJ but because it explains a bit of what led to Renly betraying his brother.  Hope for more creepy expository pillow talk from the rainbow knights later on.

What made the scene creepy?

It does seem to differ from the book, where the answer is "Renly is vain and Stannis has a stick up his arse." Why make Renly's decision the result of seduction by a dumb twink?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 10:23:26 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 16, 2011, 10:20:27 AM
Is Littlefingers wearing a jacket with a zipper?

Maybe.

I like the costumes they make it really seem like another world that is sorta like Medieval Euroland but not identical.  The clothes are just a little odd but plausible like Jaime's duster.

But a metal zipper might be a little much :P
While hand made zippers may be possible, wouldn't they be ridiculously time consuming to make and thus expensive? Suppose it could be a status symbol among the rich. :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 10:29:46 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 10:26:49 AM
What made the scene creepy?

It does seem to differ from the book, where the answer is "Renly is vain and Stannis has a stick up his arse." Why make Renly's decision the result of seduction by a dumb twink?

Erotic armpit shaving is a bit creepy :P

In the books it is obvious Renly and Loras are conspiring I was glad to see it.  'Dumb twink'?  That is the mighty Knight of Flowers you are talking about!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 11:02:22 AM
I see that for the purposes of the show they decided to get rid of 90% of the subtlety.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 16, 2011, 11:17:30 AM
So now all of Renly's motivations for joining that faction are reduced to him being gay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 16, 2011, 11:18:52 AM
LOL they put fag sex in the show? FIAL
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2011, 11:19:35 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 16, 2011, 11:17:30 AM
So now all of Renly's motivations for joining that faction are reduced to him being gay.
gays are evil, it's normal.  I think they're even worst than incestuous brothers&sisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2011, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 16, 2011, 11:18:52 AM
LOL they put fag sex in the show? FIAL
there's fag sex everywhere on cable nowadays.  I think only Band of Brothers/The Pacific did not have gay sex.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 11:22:23 AM
I have yet to see any gay ass-spearing scene on cable.  Except Queer as Folk Music.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 16, 2011, 11:17:30 AM
So now all of Renly's motivations for joining that faction are reduced to him being gay.

Um...Loras made pretty convincing arguements as to why he should be King and offered the support of the armies and financial support of Highgarden.  I think anybody would have found that tempting.

Besides the Tyrells are trying to outdue their rivals to the South by putting a Tyrell on the throne since the Martells enjoyed their special status as sorta co-rulers with the Targs for so long.

There is alot more to this than simply: Hes gay LOL.

But maybe you were just trolling Marty :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 11:02:22 AM
I see that for the purposes of the show they decided to get rid of 90% of the subtlety.  :lol:

I don't think that sort of subtlety would work at all in a TV series made for a mass audience.  I can see why they are doing things this way.  And not just with the Renly-Loras thing you could clearly see Illyrio and Varys talking during the Arya scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 11:50:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 16, 2011, 11:02:22 AM
I see that for the purposes of the show they decided to get rid of 90% of the subtlety.  :lol:

I don't think that sort of subtlety would work at all in a TV series made for a mass audience.  I can see why they are doing things this way.  And not just with the Renly-Loras thing you could clearly see Illyrio and Varys talking during the Arya scene.

I agree, if they were talebanistically faithful to the novels the series would need to be tremendously long and demanding both for the producers and for the audience, and even if it's HBO TV is an innately different setting with different rules, so being blunt and to the point is an asset.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 11:57:06 AM
In Southland, people were still going "OMG! He's a faggot?" mid season 3. I thought that show hit the right level of subtlety. They could've been satisfied with the clues during the joust here, aswell, but instead they need to slap on a goddamned trumpet and town crier announcing the fact.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 16, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
Wait, who's gay in Southland?

Cooper, it can only be Cooper.

Can't believe I missed that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 12:06:47 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 16, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
Wait, who's gay in Southland?

Cooper, it can only be Cooper.

Can't believe I missed that.

When I think of Seedy I think of him, just without the cats (http://www.catsthemusical.com).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 11:57:06 AM
In Southland, people were still going "OMG! He's a faggot?" mid season 3. I thought that show hit the right level of subtlety. They could've been satisfied with the clues during the joust here, aswell, but instead they need to slap on a goddamned trumpet and town crier announcing the fact.

Um Cooper is one of the main characters of the series.  Loras and Renly are not.  Having a big subtle sexuality thing for minor side characters would be ridiculous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 16, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
Wait, who's gay in Southland?

Cooper, it can only be Cooper.

Can't believe I missed that.

:lol:

My point exactly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 11:57:06 AM
In Southland, people were still going "OMG! He's a faggot?" mid season 3. I thought that show hit the right level of subtlety. They could've been satisfied with the clues during the joust here, aswell, but instead they need to slap on a goddamned trumpet and town crier announcing the fact.

Um Cooper is one of the main characters of the series.  Loras and Renly are not.  Having a big subtle sexuality thing for minor side characters would be ridiculous.

I'm just saying it doesn't need to be on-screen blow jobs. The Joust established the relationship already, and we're left without much confusion during the "manscaping" session. I simply think less is more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 12:32:08 PM
This thread is way too gay.
It needs to be sanitized:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhorpic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2Fmiley_cyrus_just_breathe_ch.jpg&hash=c76aeb1a77bbbe33d14a0208afb4518b29802f67)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 11:57:06 AM
In Southland, people were still going "OMG! He's a faggot?" mid season 3. I thought that show hit the right level of subtlety. They could've been satisfied with the clues during the joust here, aswell, but instead they need to slap on a goddamned trumpet and town crier announcing the fact.

Um Cooper is one of the main characters of the series.  Loras and Renly are not.  Having a big subtle sexuality thing for minor side characters would be ridiculous.

I'm just saying it doesn't need to be on-screen blow jobs. The Joust established the relationship already, and we're left without much confusion during the "manscaping" session. I simply think less is more.

I think the later sniggering about how everybody was certain that Margery Tyrell was still a maid in the books pretty much leaves it out in the open as much as possible, without Littlefinger commenting on Renly's preference in whores.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 16, 2011, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 16, 2011, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 16, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
Wait, who's gay in Southland?

Cooper, it can only be Cooper.

Can't believe I missed that.

:lol:

My point exactly.

I never saw it. Man.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 01:55:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 10:29:46 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 10:26:49 AM
What made the scene creepy?

It does seem to differ from the book, where the answer is "Renly is vain and Stannis has a stick up his arse." Why make Renly's decision the result of seduction by a dumb twink?

Erotic armpit shaving is a bit creepy :P

You would be surprised.  :ph34r:

Speaking of the *slurp slurp* sound. On Penny Arcade forum someone concluded "Maybe they are just bros". :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 02:05:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 16, 2011, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 08:14:17 AM
I must have missed Marty's love of lesbians.  :huh:

I am sort of stretching his love of pretty young boys.... I'll grant you that...

WTF. Aren't you confusing me with someone? I have consistenly been falling in love with guys in their early to mid 20s.

You do realize that "young boys" means kids, right? Fucking idiot.

The older I get the definition of "young boys" expands to include higher and higher age ranges.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:06:21 PM
Anyway, all you straightforward ghey haters go to hell. :P

Btw, awesome episode. Despite the "manscaping scene", I think Cersei and Robert little chat was the best scene, followed by Littlefinger and Varys and only then the ghey shaving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2011, 02:11:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2011, 11:22:23 AM
I have yet to see any gay ass-spearing scene on cable.  Except Queer as Folk Music.
True Blood & Spartacus for sure.  Don't know about 6 feet under. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 02:11:34 PM
The ghey shaving scene, while not a bad scene at all as far as further developing the characters and the relationship between Renly and Loras, was nowhere near the best scene.  Certainly not the 3rd best.

The back-and-forth between Varys and Littlefinger was the best, for me, followed closely by the meeting with Lysa at the Eyrie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 02:17:57 PM
Skinny Lysa and Sweet Robin were awesome.

I want to see the bad man fly!

Pity we will not see them again until season 3 or 4 once they leave the Eyrie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:21:31 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 02:11:34 PM
The ghey shaving scene, while not a bad scene at all as far as further developing the characters and the relationship between Renly and Loras, was nowhere near the best scene.  Certainly not the 3rd best.

The back-and-forth between Varys and Littlefinger was the best, for me, followed closely by the meeting with Lysa at the Eyrie.
Well, obviously you should appreciate why I rank "gay sightings" higher in my ranking than you would do. Still, I gotta say it was an awesome episode. Lots of cool stuff.

Lysa the Nut rocks. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 02:22:35 PM
I didn't even watch it. Three hour Survivor finale was on, and my wife absconded with the TV. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:24:07 PM
Btw, while the episode progresses the Westeros social scene by introducing manscaping, it shows that "from behind" fucking is still in vogue (see Theon and his flaccid dick). Time for Danny to invade with her progressive sexual position ways.  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 02:22:35 PM
I didn't even watch it. Three hour Survivor finale was on, and my wife absconded with the TV. :(

Marriage = FAIL. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 02:25:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 02:22:35 PM
I didn't even watch it. Three hour Survivor finale was on, and my wife absconded with the TV. :(

Torrentz.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:25:28 PM
Btw, is Alfie Allen wearing a teeth prosthetic thingie or are his teeth just crooked because he is British?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:26:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 02:22:35 PM
I didn't even watch it. Three hour Survivor finale was on, and my wife absconded with the TV. :(

Also, you can watch it here:

http://iitv.info/gra-o-tron--game-of-thrones/s01e05-the-wolf-and-the-lion.html

Click "ogladaj odcinek".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 02:26:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:24:07 PM
Btw, while the episode progresses the Westeros social scene by introducing manscaping, it shows that "from behind" fucking is still in vogue

He was fucking a prostitute, though, and not his social equal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 02:30:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 16, 2011, 11:17:30 AM
So now all of Renly's motivations for joining that faction are reduced to him being gay.

Um...Loras made pretty convincing arguements as to why he should be King and offered the support of the armies and financial support of Highgarden.  I think anybody would have found that tempting.

What's the argument? You're pretty?

Also, I thought Renly was a bit of a bad ass mofo in the books, who wanted the throne because he was vain and convinced he'd make a better king. Here?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:33:12 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 02:30:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 16, 2011, 11:17:30 AM
So now all of Renly's motivations for joining that faction are reduced to him being gay.

Um...Loras made pretty convincing arguements as to why he should be King and offered the support of the armies and financial support of Highgarden.  I think anybody would have found that tempting.

What's the argument? You're pretty?

Also, I thought Renly was a bit of a bad ass mofo in the books, who wanted the throne because he was vain and convinced he'd make a better king. Here?

The argument was that Renly is a good person, I thought. That was my impression of him from the books, to be honest - a vain, frivolous but ultimately a good guy. Probably better than Robert, way better than Joffrey. Is he better than Stannis? Debatable - but Stannis is a dour asshole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 02:34:59 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 02:30:35 PM

What's the argument? You're pretty?

Also, I thought Renly was a bit of a bad ass mofo in the books, who wanted the throne because he was vain and convinced he'd make a better king. Here?

Multiple characters respond that Renly would make a better king than Stannis (presumably Robert and Joffrey as well), including Ned and Littlefinger. Littlefinger tries to convince Ned to leave joffrey on the throne and then let a few years pass with Joffrey's minority to get rid of Stannis, then expose the incest and put Renly on the Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
Yeah, that was the problem, Stannis was the legal king but rather rubbish, Renly would have been a pretty good king meanwhile.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 02:36:40 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 16, 2011, 02:30:35 PM
What's the argument? You're pretty?

Also, I thought Renly was a bit of a bad ass mofo in the books, who wanted the throne because he was vain and convinced he'd make a better king. Here?

Stannis is unpopular, Joffrey is a monster, and Tommen is a boy.  You are loved and have the political support of Highgarden.

Basically here is why you should be King and here is the means.  Any man with any ambition, especially one eager to prove himself as Renly would find that hard to pass up.

Wait Renly was a badass mofo in the books?

1. He gets described as copper, pretty to look at but without substance.

2. He gets described as a mediocre tournament knight who usually loses but does so in style in his fancy green armor.

3. He gets described as trying to be an imitation of his brother...he even looks like a younger version of Robert.

4. He wastes precious time having parties and tournaments once he is crowned when a swift march up the Rose Road would have resulted in his probable victory.

That does not sound much like a badass mofo.  His most distinctive qualities are charm, vanity, and ambition.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 16, 2011, 02:38:29 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
Yeah, that was the problem, Stannis was the legal king but rather rubbish, Renly would have been a pretty good king meanwhile.

Maybe.  He certainly would have been popular initially.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 16, 2011, 02:40:33 PM
Was Renly a black Muslim by any chance?

He was gay. That's a point-by-point equivalent (sorry, I still think of people as if they were GURPS characters  :blush: ).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 16, 2011, 04:26:24 PM
Renly came off as a whiny emo teen. "omg my brother, like, so doesn't get me"

Loras was appropriately unlikable, Varys superb, Lysa over-the-top, the Eyrie disappointing.

The scene with Robert and Cersei was lame, I thought. They never seemed like the type who would sit and talk about feelings.

All in all not my favourite episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2011, 04:34:32 PM
So, Robert has zero kids with the Queen, but he has like a dozen with other women.  Does he even fuck his wife from time to time?  Ain't he surprise his supposed kid doesn't look like him at all, having inherited 100% of her mother's trait?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 04:35:34 PM
I don't think he pays that much attention to his kids - any of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 04:37:06 PM
Robert's not exactly a 'details' kind of guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2011, 05:13:17 PM
My dad has excellent gaydar apparently, as soon as Loras entered he said "That puff is gonna fight the big bloke?"

The lack of a melee was dissapointing. Was Robert ever going to joust in the books? I'm sure they've just moved him from the melee.
And in the book Cersei didn't lose Roberts kid right? I'm sure in the novels she's never been pregnant by him. Can't recall so well though.
The Eyrie was very dissapointing. Looks like they've changed it totally too, its not on top of a mountain, its some sort of weird...hollowed out honeycomby....infeasable in a 'how does that even stand up?' way, sort of thing.
I liked Robin. He couldn't act (he's a kid though, so meh) but he looked ill, had a wonky eye.
The Robert and Cersei scene was lame yes. My dad even started complaining there saying "Its a bit slow isn't it? Is there ever any big fights?"

I wonder what people will make of the others never being seen again...

Quote
Maybe.  He certainly would have been popular initially.
He's vain and weak.
All the king needs to do is sit on the throne and look pretty, let the council rule. A weak king is a good thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 05:22:40 PM
The hill tribe melee didn't count as a big fight?

She was pregnant but aborted it. I bet she poisoned it in the show (and has some regrets).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Someone needs to remind me why anyone thought Robert would be a good king.  If he hadn't been crowned, none of this shit would have happened.  The fat man would never have written these turgid books, and I would not be forced to try to re-read this crap for the fourth time.  Maybe I will finally make it all the through Clash of Kings.  ALthough I rather doubt it.

Edit: I meant A Storm of Swords.  I've made it through Clash of Kings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:29:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2011, 02:26:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 02:22:35 PM
I didn't even watch it. Three hour Survivor finale was on, and my wife absconded with the TV. :(

Also, you can watch it here:

http://iitv.info/gra-o-tron--game-of-thrones/s01e05-the-wolf-and-the-lion.html

Click "ogladaj odcinek".

Can you link me to the first episode?
I haven't seen any.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Someone needs to remind me why anyone thought Robert would be a good king.  If he hadn't been crowned, none of this shit would have happened.  The fat man would never have written these turgid books, and I would not be forced to try to re-read this crap for the fourth time.  Maybe I will finally make it all the through Clash of Kings.  ALthough I rather doubt it.

Edit: I meant A Storm of Swords.  I've made it through Clash of Kings.

Robert was the only person with a drop of Targaryen blood and a paper thin claim on the throne among the rebels. The Robert of 15 years ago was like the Renly of today only less ghey and more interested in the killing bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
This is not HD.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2011, 06:37:01 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
This is not HD.

Pay for HBO then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:39:26 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 16, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Someone needs to remind me why anyone thought Robert would be a good king.  If he hadn't been crowned, none of this shit would have happened.  The fat man would never have written these turgid books, and I would not be forced to try to re-read this crap for the fourth time.  Maybe I will finally make it all the through Clash of Kings.  ALthough I rather doubt it.

Edit: I meant A Storm of Swords.  I've made it through Clash of Kings.

Robert was the only person with a drop of Targaryen blood and a paper thin claim on the throne among the rebels. The Robert of 15 years ago was like the Renly of today only less ghey and more interested in the killing bit.
They should have killed all the Targaryens, and let the Lannisters rule.  Jesus.  Henry VII, where are you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:41:38 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 16, 2011, 06:37:01 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
This is not HD.

Pay for HBO then.

Then I would have to watch all the other crap they play.
I don't have too much time and I already have Netflix and Starz.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2011, 06:44:53 PM
People actually watched Southland?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:53:30 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2011, 06:44:53 PM
People actually watched Southland?  :huh:
I liked it better the first time, when it was called Boomtown, and didn't suck donkey balls.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2011, 08:42:45 PM
That was an excellent episode.

The conversation between Robert and Cersei was very well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 16, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
The suckling kid scene was disturbing. Surprised they let that one through.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 09:40:24 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 16, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
The suckling kid scene was disturbing. Surprised they let that one through.

It was awesome is what it was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 09:40:54 PM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Maybe I will finally make it all the through Clash of Kings.

Edit: I meant A Storm of Swords.  I've made it through Clash of Kings.

Well, hopefully you do.  It's certainly worth it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 10:06:18 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 16, 2011, 09:40:54 PM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Maybe I will finally make it all the through Clash of Kings.

Edit: I meant A Storm of Swords.  I've made it through Clash of Kings.

Well, hopefully you do.  It's certainly worth it.
To my mind, it's merely a superior form of the Dead Fat Man's work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 16, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2011, 05:13:17 PM
My dad has excellent gaydar apparently, as soon as Loras entered he said "That puff is gonna fight the big bloke?"

The lack of a melee was dissapointing. Was Robert ever going to joust in the books? I'm sure they've just moved him from the melee.
And in the book Cersei didn't lose Roberts kid right? I'm sure in the novels she's never been pregnant by him. Can't recall so well though.
The Eyrie was very dissapointing. Looks like they've changed it totally too, its not on top of a mountain, its some sort of weird...hollowed out honeycomby....infeasable in a 'how does that even stand up?' way, sort of thing.
I liked Robin. He couldn't act (he's a kid though, so meh) but he looked ill, had a wonky eye.
The Robert and Cersei scene was lame yes. My dad even started complaining there saying "Its a bit slow isn't it? Is there ever any big fights?"

I wonder what people will make of the others never being seen again...

Quote
Maybe.  He certainly would have been popular initially.
He's vain and weak.
All the king needs to do is sit on the throne and look pretty, let the council rule. A weak king is a good thing.
Yes, Robert planned on jousting in the tournament.  Yes, Cersei was pregnant with Robert's legitimate son once, but got Jaimie to hook her up with an abortion.  She tells this to Ned when Ned confronts her about the inbred Lannister kiddies.  I have yet to watch the newest episode, but I'm not thrilled with your description of the Eyrie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 10:34:11 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 16, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
The suckling kid scene was disturbing. Surprised they let that one through.
They used a prosthesis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 17, 2011, 12:14:45 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2011, 05:13:17 PM
I wonder what people will make of the others never being seen again...
So, from the beginning, they tell us it's going to be a long night.  During the long night, this old and very tough ennemy comes back to destroy the living.  Very LOTResque.  We see hint that they are there, not just a legend, at the very beginning of the series. 

And you tell me that in fact these guys are just there for show and actually want to be left alone in their corner of the world?  I'm disapointed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 17, 2011, 12:16:17 AM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Someone needs to remind me why anyone thought Robert would be a good king.
Most of those who tought he wouldn't be a good king were already dead or in exile.  The surviving ones didn't want a fight.

I haven't read the book and I already know that!  ha!  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 17, 2011, 12:18:26 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:41:38 PM
Then I would have to watch all the other crap they play.
I don't have too much time and I already have Netflix and Starz.
I suppose it will eventually be on Netflix, or available in a rental store.  Then your wife could rip the Blu-Ray rental discs, and you could copy it on your laptop when you get back home.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 17, 2011, 12:24:29 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 17, 2011, 12:18:26 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 16, 2011, 06:41:38 PM
Then I would have to watch all the other crap they play.
I don't have too much time and I already have Netflix and Starz.
I suppose it will eventually be on Netflix, or available in a rental store.  Then your wife could rip the Blu-Ray rental discs, and you could copy it on your laptop when you get back home.

If.

If he gets back home.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 17, 2011, 12:43:59 AM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:39:26 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 16, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
Quote from: Scipio on May 16, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
Someone needs to remind me why anyone thought Robert would be a good king.  If he hadn't been crowned, none of this shit would have happened.  The fat man would never have written these turgid books, and I would not be forced to try to re-read this crap for the fourth time.  Maybe I will finally make it all the through Clash of Kings.  ALthough I rather doubt it.

Edit: I meant A Storm of Swords.  I've made it through Clash of Kings.

Robert was the only person with a drop of Targaryen blood and a paper thin claim on the throne among the rebels. The Robert of 15 years ago was like the Renly of today only less ghey and more interested in the killing bit.
They should have killed all the Targaryens, and let the Lannisters rule.  Jesus.  Henry VII, where are you?


Err, they did let the Lannisters rule. They are just getting from de facto to de iure, when Ned intervenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on May 17, 2011, 02:46:09 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 16, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
[Yes, Robert planned on jousting in the tournament. 

It was deffo the melee
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 17, 2011, 03:20:16 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 17, 2011, 02:46:09 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 16, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
[Yes, Robert planned on jousting in the tournament. 

It was deffo the melee
Ah, right.  Pardon, I more meant he planned on taking part.  Not sure why I said jousting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2011, 05:10:07 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 16, 2011, 10:34:11 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 16, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
The suckling kid scene was disturbing. Surprised they let that one through.
They used a prosthesis.

The kid is never going to live it down with his pals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 05:20:25 AM
Ratings continuing to grow.  :cool:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/05/17/game-of-thrones-ratings-climb/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 06:17:38 AM
Can anyone grab a screencap of the Small Council scene when Robert and Ned argue about Daenerys' assasination attempt in which the background is clearly visible? I had a huge :geek: hunch when watching the episode and would like to confirm it.  :P

Thanks in advance.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 06:47:21 AM
 :lol:

"The background"  :lol:

Can you be more specific? There are plenty of angles there, you know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 06:47:21 AM
:lol:

"The background"  :lol:

Can you be more specific? There are plenty of angles there, you know.
It's a tapestry of Robert defeating Rheagar at the Trident.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 07:35:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 06:47:21 AM
:lol:

"The background"  :lol:

Can you be more specific? There are plenty of angles there, you know.
It's a tapestry of Robert defeating Rheagar at the Trident.

Yes, that tapestry, my hunch is that it's based on "The Battle of San Romano" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_San_Romano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_San_Romano)).

Edit: Ok, it's a screencap like this. Would be great if the scene had more lighting:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgrab.by%2Fa9Wc&hash=594997cdfba33458e6a9ae6d867a32f808fa217d)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: BuddhaRhubarb on May 18, 2011, 11:55:52 AM
I'm really digging this show. never read the books, though now I guess I'll have to.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2011, 12:11:14 PM
I'm gonna start reading the first book this weekend. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on May 18, 2011, 11:55:52 AM
I'm really digging this show. never read the books, though now I guess I'll have to.
since before or after the gay scene?  :P

Seriously, you don't need to read the books.  After 5 shows, I know where this is going and I haven't read the books:
Robert will be killed by his wife, civil war will ensue, all current protagonists will be killed over the course of the war, the victorious side won't be for long.
The Wildlings will wage some form of semi war in the north against the barbarians beyond the gate.
The nightwatch is undermanned and underfunded, so it will crumble.
The Eastern princess will re-awaken her dragon eggs somehow and use the dragons to forge an empire in the east.
Once it's done, she'll invade the West lands, pick a fight with whatever force is left and eventually marry Robert's bastard son, the blacksmith to sit on the throne and unite the realm.

Easy to predict.  Still a good show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 12:35:18 PM
You know nothing, Jon Snow...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 12:53:28 PM
Someone read wiki and thinks that makes them clever. Cute.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 12:54:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
Seriously, you don't need to read the books.

I am not aware of a circumstance where you need to read a work of fiction,

I guess since I suspect Sauron will lose I shouldn't read LOTR eh?

Is the only reason to read fiction is to discover the ending?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Damn spoilers.
It's just like the time I was halfway through War and Peace and some jerk told me Napoleon loses in the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 01:13:35 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Damn spoilers.
It's just like the time I was halfway through War and Peace and some jerk told me Napoleon loses in the end.

Which edition are you reading? It's just possible that vampire zombies will save him before the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 18, 2011, 01:16:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Damn spoilers.
It's just like the time I was halfway through War and Peace and some jerk told me Napoleon loses in the end.
Pity they didn't tell you that before you started.  One of the most over-rated books ever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2011, 01:17:49 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Damn spoilers.
It's just like the time I was halfway through War and Peace and some jerk told me Napoleon loses in the end.

You BASTARD. I've spent the last six months reading that, haven't gotten to the last chapter yet.
;)

The dragon thing is the easiest thing to figure out, I think. They keep repeating, in the show, ad nauseum, how the horses can't cross rivers. Hmm, if only they had something that can breach that river somehow.  :hmm:

I haven't read the boosk yet, though, so I may be off.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2011, 01:20:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 18, 2011, 01:16:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Damn spoilers.
It's just like the time I was halfway through War and Peace and some jerk told me Napoleon loses in the end.
Pity they didn't tell you that before you started.  One of the most over-rated books ever.

yeah but compared to Martin, Tolstoy is terse
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 18, 2011, 01:24:01 PM
Yep, Martin probably thinks that War and Peace is pretty good for a short story  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2011, 01:26:15 PM
And at least Tolstoy finished the damn thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 01:26:27 PM
At least Martin managed to pick a title that wasn't self-contradictory.

No, wait...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 18, 2011, 01:30:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
since before or after the gay scene?  :P

This is a fully spoiled zone so I will spoiler away.
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM

Seriously, you don't need to read the books.  After 5 shows, I know where this is going and I haven't read the books:
Robert will be killed by his wife,
No.
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
civil war will ensue,
Well duh, read the title
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PMall current protagonists will be killed over the course of the war,
No
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PMthe victorious side won't be for long.
duh
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
The Wildlings will wage some form of semi war in the north against the barbarians beyond the gate.
No
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
The nightwatch is undermanned and underfunded, so it will crumble.
No
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
The Eastern princess will re-awaken her dragon eggs somehow and use the dragons to forge an empire in the east.
Dragons remain nothing more than curiosities
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
Once it's done, she'll invade the West lands, pick a fight with whatever force is left and eventually marry Robert's bastard son, the blacksmith to sit on the throne and unite the realm.
Books haven't got that far, but duh.
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM

Easy to predict.  Still a good show.

2 out of 7 with the last one still unknown.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 01:33:16 PM
Working from limited knowledge, those were pretty good predictions, and while not exactly 100% accurate they were certainly more or less in the ball park.

My leather bushman hat is off to you, Viper.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:37:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 01:33:16 PM
Working from limited knowledge, those were pretty good predictions, and while not exactly 100% accurate they were certainly more or less in the ball park.

My leather bushman hat is off to you, Viper.

If he was merely guessing and not being a tremendous tool insisting there is no reason to read the books because of his brilliance I would agree.

But he is a tool so too bad :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:38:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 01:26:27 PM
At least Martin managed to pick a title that wasn't self-contradictory.

No, wait...

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:38:28 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 18, 2011, 01:26:15 PM
And at least Tolstoy finished the damn thing.

Wait were we saying ASoIaF is better than War and Peace or something?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 01:55:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 12:53:28 PM
Someone read wiki and thinks that makes them clever. Cute.
I did not read anything on the show, actually, except the premises when I first heard about it.  Oh, and the description for the next two episodes.

It's kinda clear where this is going on, with all the "subtle" hints we were told on the show.  Especially after the open attack from Jaime on Ned Stark, you know it's going to end badly.  Robert won't take kindly on such attack on his friend even if he disagress with him, and the Imp is too clever to die just yet.  The Queen and her brother certainly won't let go of their power if the King makes a move against them or threatens to.

And they wouldn't introduce a wannabe Queen in the East with dragon eggs turned to stone - yet strangely glow near candles - just so she sits there for the next 40 years and dies of old age.

I don't need a wiki for that.

The only thing I tought would happen and won't, according to comments here, was a march south from the Wildlings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 01:55:30 PM
It's kinda clear where this is going on, with all the "subtle" hints we were told on the show.  Especially after the open attack from Jaime on Ned Stark, you know it's going to end badly.  Robert won't take kindly on such attack on his friend even if he disagress with him, and the Imp is too clever to die just yet.  The Queen and her brother certainly won't let go of their power if the King makes a move against them or threatens to.

And they wouldn't introduce a wannabe Queen in the East with dragon eggs turn to stone - yet strangely glow near candles - just so she sits there for the next 40 years and dies of old age.

Things are alot more bluntly obvious in the show than they are in the books because, well, it is a TV show.

I just do not get why this makes reading the books not worthwhile.  They are very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 02:01:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:37:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 01:33:16 PM
Working from limited knowledge, those were pretty good predictions, and while not exactly 100% accurate they were certainly more or less in the ball park.

My leather bushman hat is off to you, Viper.

If he was merely guessing and not being a tremendous tool insisting there is no reason to read the books because of his brilliance I would agree.

But he is a tool so too bad :(
I'm not insisting on anything.  I'm guessing what's coming on based on what I've seen so far.  Not reading the books was more of a joke, I own them, I bought them this week.
I can usually guess where a movie is going after a few minutes, I just don't know how they reach that point.  Same thing with the tv show. 

You know, it's like watching Babylon 5.  You know at some point the human captain is going to defeat the Shadows with an alliance of alien races old&new.  You just don't know how he achieves it.

And I suppose the nudity scenes are better on tv than in the books :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 02:04:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
I just do not get why this makes reading the books not worthwhile.  They are very enjoyable.
Grumbler told me not to read it in the book's thread :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 02:06:07 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 18, 2011, 01:30:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PMall current protagonists will be killed over the course of the war,
No
Pity.  I would have killed all the Lannisters after 1 or 2 shows :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 02:01:11 PM
I'm not insisting on anything.  I'm guessing what's coming on based on what I've seen so far.  Not reading the books was more of a joke, I own them, I bought them this week.
I can usually guess where a movie is going after a few minutes, I just don't know how they reach that point.  Same thing with the tv show. 

Ah ok.  That is just what you said but sometimes irony does not translate well on this medium.

I have no idea how correct you are on most of that stuff btw since most of it has not happened yet in the book series.  In fact you missed many of the main plot elements but since most of them still have not been introduced yet in the TV series that is understandable...well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 01:55:30 PM
It's kinda clear where this is going on, with all the "subtle" hints we were told on the show.  Especially after the open attack from Jaime on Ned Stark, you know it's going to end badly.  Robert won't take kindly on such attack on his friend even if he disagress with him, and the Imp is too clever to die just yet.  The Queen and her brother certainly won't let go of their power if the King makes a move against them or threatens to.

And they wouldn't introduce a wannabe Queen in the East with dragon eggs turn to stone - yet strangely glow near candles - just so she sits there for the next 40 years and dies of old age.

Things are alot more bluntly obvious in the show than they are in the books because, well, it is a TV show.

I just do not get why this makes reading the books not worthwhile.  They are very enjoyable.

I don't understand this brand association.

So he doesn't want to read the books? So what? [and yes, I know he says he was kidding, but for the sake of argument...]

That doesn't diminish your enjoyment of them.

I could say that I feel a great anger at Martin for ruining many hours of my life by printing such feces on paper that you can't even use it to wipe your ass because it's already saturated. Wouldn't change your enjoyment of them one bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:09:09 PM
Yeah, he kind of hit on some of the main plot points, but missed on some major ones. Almost as if he read a summary somewhere. Not that he would do that, of course, just to come on languish and preen about how brilliant he is for knowing everything that is going to happen in the future because he is so fucking smart...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 02:11:34 PM
Even though most of his predictions are wrong...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:09:09 PM
Yeah, he kind of hit on some of the main plot points, but missed on some major ones. Almost as if he read a summary somewhere. Not that he would do that, of course, just to come on languish and preen about how brilliant he is for knowing everything that is going to happen in the future because he is so fucking smart...

I've never known Viper to be that level of douche, so I'm going to assume that he simply did what he said: watch the show and extrapolate future events based on empirical knowledge of story telling and the hints given so far in the story.

That he misses some major ones certainly shouldn't be surprising since he hasn't actually read the books.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:21:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 02:11:34 PM
Even though most of his predictions are wrong...

Well, not to be contrarian, but are they "Earth is flat and if you sail far enough you'll fall off the end" wrong or simply "earth is perfectly spherical" wrong?

For instance, while Cersei doesn't physically inflict the wound, she certainly has a hand in its dealing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:28:11 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:09:09 PM
Yeah, he kind of hit on some of the main plot points, but missed on some major ones. Almost as if he read a summary somewhere. Not that he would do that, of course, just to come on languish and preen about how brilliant he is for knowing everything that is going to happen in the future because he is so fucking smart...

I've never known Viper to be that level of douche, so I'm going to assume that he simply did what he said: watch the show and extrapolate future events based on empirical knowledge of story telling and the hints given so far in the story.

That he misses some major ones certainly shouldn't be surprising since he hasn't actually read the books.  :hmm:

It isn't really that high a douchey level, pretty low really for languish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
I don't understand this brand association.

So he doesn't want to read the books? So what? [and yes, I know he says he was kidding, but for the sake of argument...]

I was only objecting to how and why he was telling Buddha not to.  I was not telling Viper he should read them or anybody else for that matter if they do not like the series or the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:46:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:28:11 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:09:09 PM
Yeah, he kind of hit on some of the main plot points, but missed on some major ones. Almost as if he read a summary somewhere. Not that he would do that, of course, just to come on languish and preen about how brilliant he is for knowing everything that is going to happen in the future because he is so fucking smart...

I've never known Viper to be that level of douche, so I'm going to assume that he simply did what he said: watch the show and extrapolate future events based on empirical knowledge of story telling and the hints given so far in the story.

That he misses some major ones certainly shouldn't be surprising since he hasn't actually read the books.  :hmm:

It isn't really that high a douchey level, pretty low really for languish.

Well.

Reading the Wiki and then pretending to have reasoned it out on his own is a level of stupidity that I don't really consider for most Languishites. Perhaps Jaron or FB would lead me to consider it, but this? What would be the point?

"Hah, I'm going to use a cheat-sheet but get the answers intentionally wrong enough that I still look mildly clever. PROFIT!"

Really... point?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Let's not argue about who's the biggest douche on Languish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2011, 02:58:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Let's not argue about who's the biggest douche on Languish.

Yeah, that cannot end well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:59:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Let's not argue about who's the biggest douche on Languish.

There is no point.  It is blatantly obvious who it is after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: ulmont on May 18, 2011, 03:00:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:59:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Let's not argue about who's the biggest douche on Languish.

There is no point.  It is blatantly obvious who it is after all.

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 18, 2011, 03:07:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:59:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 18, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Let's not argue about who's the biggest douche on Languish.

There is no point.  It is blatantly obvious who it is after all.

No contest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 03:46:25 PM
I think that that kind of predictions really miss a lot of the issues. It's not as much about the final destination as about the trip there. In the big picture some storyline might go one way or the other, but what happens in the lifes of the characters is as important or even more important than the fact that faction X wins or loses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

@Berkut:
Do you think someone fucking his own sister and throwing a boy from, oh a 20ft high tower, all in the first episode, can have any redeeming qualities written for this show?  Is it usually the bad guys or the good guys that tend to live long and prosper?

I can figure who's who by myself.

Maybe it's because I watched the first four episodes in 2 days instead of 4 weeks, that tends to make a better impression of what's happenning.

I'm still a little confused about all these characters, who's the son of who and who's a bastard or an ally or an ennemy or who is really sane or is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 04:08:28 PM
You'll be surprised, I think, even if you believe you've got it all figured out.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
@Berkut:
Do you think someone fucking his own sister and throwing a boy from, oh a 20ft high tower, all in the first episode, can have any redeeming qualities written for this show?

You'd be amazed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:09:44 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
That he misses some major ones certainly shouldn't be surprising since he hasn't actually read the books.  :hmm:
I'll come to it, given time :)
I want to see what's really different from the tv show.

At some point, someone here is gonna come and say "this is ridiculous, the author never intended X to be portrayed like that, I thought he was more like "Y" or something like "I hate ghosts killing people, they are ridiculous even if they are not green".

See, I can even read into the future now :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 18, 2011, 04:11:54 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
I can figure who's who by myself.


Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 04:12:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Do you think someone fucking his own sister and throwing a boy from, oh a 20ft high tower, all in the first episode, can have any redeeming qualities written for this show?  Is it usually the bad guys or the good guys that tend to live long and prosper?

:lol:

Read the books.

Also, here's a hint : the "good guy" ranks aren't exactly filled with enlightened balls of light.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

What has it diverted from?  Some scenes have been added, but the story hasn't changed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 18, 2011, 04:13:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

Dont know about Fandom but I have.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:09:44 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
That he misses some major ones certainly shouldn't be surprising since he hasn't actually read the books.  :hmm:
I'll come to it, given time :)
I want to see what's really different from the tv show.

At some point, someone here is gonna come and say "this is ridiculous, the author never intended X to be portrayed like that, I thought he was more like "Y" or something like "I hate ghosts killing people, they are ridiculous even if they are not green".

See, I can even read into the future now :P

[grumbbaku]No, no one will say that. There are no ghosts in this series, green or otherwise.[/grumbbaku]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:20:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

What has it diverted from?  Some scenes have been added, but the story hasn't changed.

Cersei is a way more sympathetic character in the series, for starters. Jaime also seems to display a more affectionate character. Those two were irredeemeable in the books at this point, while they're more nuanced in the series.

Besides that there's the Renly-Loras thingie, which was dealt with with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, when there were readers that still didn't get their thing from the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:24:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 18, 2011, 04:13:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

Dont know about Fandom but I have.

About what?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 04:24:57 PM
 :D

Might as well have thrown a Pride! parade in there.  :homestar:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:15:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on May 18, 2011, 11:55:52 AM
I'm really digging this show. never read the books, though now I guess I'll have to.
since before or after the gay scene?  :P

Seriously, you don't need to read the books.  After 5 shows, I know where this is going and I haven't read the books:
Robert will be killed by his wife, civil war will ensue, all current protagonists will be killed over the course of the war, the victorious side won't be for long.
The Wildlings will wage some form of semi war in the north against the barbarians beyond the gate.
The nightwatch is undermanned and underfunded, so it will crumble.
The Eastern princess will re-awaken her dragon eggs somehow and use the dragons to forge an empire in the east.
Once it's done, she'll invade the West lands, pick a fight with whatever force is left and eventually marry Robert's bastard son, the blacksmith to sit on the throne and unite the realm.

Easy to predict.  Still a good show.
Meh, some of this is correct, and some not. Read and find out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

Yes we do, and the wildlings do march south.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on May 18, 2011, 07:04:55 PM
Evil will always triumph in Martin's world, because good people are only good because they are dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 08:45:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 04:12:17 PM
Also, here's a hint : the "good guy" ranks aren't exactly filled with enlightened balls of light.
Well, characters aren't unidimensional so far, but the Lannisters are hard to like and pity.

I'll get on these books as soon as I finish the Star Wars ones :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 08:46:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

Yes we do, and the wildlings do march south.
Now, that's more like it :)  Someone was playing me for a fool  :mad:
Can't be bothered to look back who it was though.

These things, do we know what they are exactly?  The people they killed, how did they bring them back to life, zombie-style?

If they come from the North, they must be resistant to cold but allergic to fire... hmm, I wonder if the dragons won't play a part in their ultimate demise...

@Scipio:
Well, the way I see it, Evil was already defeated some millenia ago (1000 years?), and I suppose they thought it'd be a good idea to build some huge wall of ice right there to prevent them from coming back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 08:46:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

Yes we do, and the wildlings do march south.
Now, that's more like it :)  Someone was playing me for a fool  :mad:
Can't be bothered to look back who it was though.

These things, do we know what they are exactly?  The people they killed, how did they bring them back to life, zombie-style?
Well the wildlings did march south so we know a lot about them, about the White Walkers we've seen little of them, so don't know much beyond that they're scary and evil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:20:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

What has it diverted from?  Some scenes have been added, but the story hasn't changed.

Cersei is a way more sympathetic character in the series, for starters. Jaime also seems to display a more affectionate character. Those two were irredeemeable in the books at this point, while they're more nuanced in the series.

Besides that there's the Renly-Loras thingie, which was dealt with with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, when there were readers that still didn't get their thing from the books.

I disagree on both counts. Both examples you quote come from the fact that these were POVs not available in the books, so we could not see these conversations. We know already from later books that Jaime is quite a likeable character.

As for Renly and Loras, again it was implied in the books, because neither had a POV and obviously they wouldn't fuck with others watching. Now they can be showed intimate, I fail to see why their relationship should have been less "graphic" than that of any other characters. As for their relationship being secret in the books, imo this secrecy was less of a plot device and more of a character development device (i.e. these two having a secret affair was more a trait about them, and not something that the reader needed to discover to advance the plot - unlike the fact that Lannisters are fucking and all "Robert's" kids are Jaime's). Compare this to HBO's "Six Feet Under" - David being closeted was one of the main character arc for him, but that didn't prevent the creators from having him fuck another guy on the pilot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 19, 2011, 12:58:51 AM
Implied, Marti? Or implode?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 19, 2011, 02:15:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:20:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 18, 2011, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

What has it diverted from?  Some scenes have been added, but the story hasn't changed.

Cersei is a way more sympathetic character in the series, for starters. Jaime also seems to display a more affectionate character. Those two were irredeemeable in the books at this point, while they're more nuanced in the series.

Besides that there's the Renly-Loras thingie, which was dealt with with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, when there were readers that still didn't get their thing from the books.

I disagree on both counts. Both examples you quote come from the fact that these were POVs not available in the books, so we could not see these conversations. We know already from later books that Jaime is quite a likeable character.

Which is why I said that they divert from the books on that. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 19, 2011, 02:20:37 AM
I'm just happily awaiting the deaths of the faggots.

I hope it's bloody.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2011, 02:20:37 AM
I'm just happily awaiting the deaths of the faggots.

I hope it's bloody.

You know that Loras doesn't die, right? In fact he goes into a blood rage and kills everybody after Renly dies. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 19, 2011, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2011, 02:20:37 AM
I'm just happily awaiting the deaths of the faggots.

I hope it's bloody.

You know that Loras doesn't die, right? In fact he goes into a blood rage and kills everybody after Renly dies. :P

Show's not over yet.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 19, 2011, 04:17:24 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:24:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 18, 2011, 04:13:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
The series has already diverted from the books in some things and the fandom hasn't cringed...that I know.

Dont know about Fandom but I have.

About what?

There is a long list but I think I can summarize by saying that have added scenes that dont occur in the books which alter the character's motivations.  Some examples:

Why did Littlefinger tell Sansa about the Hound when the Hound's revelations to Sansa about his past was an important part of their relationship.

Why put add a scene where the Queen wonders with the King about what might have been, leading to the implication that Cersei is giving it one last shot before the king is killed?  The king isnt killed because he loved Stark's sister best and Cersei feels scorned.  He is killed to make way for a Lannister dynasty and that was always been the Queen's plan.

And for the love of God, why the shaving scene?  Renly didnt act because of some infatuation with a gay lover nor did Loras offer assistance to Renly because Renly was his lover.  The Lord of Highgarden was involved in a power play against the Lannisters but that political intrigue, which imo was the best thing about the books, is completely lost in the series.  All we are really left are a couple of gay lovers conspiring to take a crown.



They have gotten some things right though.  The imp (especially) and Littlefinger are well done.  That is what keeps me watching.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 04:34:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2011, 04:17:24 PM
And for the love of God, why the shaving scene?  Renly didnt act because of some infatuation with a gay lover nor did Loras offer assistance to Renly because Renly was his lover.  The Lord of Highgarden was involved in a power play against the Lannisters but that political intrigue, which imo was the best thing about the books, is completely lost in the series.  All we are really left are a couple of gay lovers conspiring to take a crown.

Nope. I think you are reading more into that scene than there is. They are showing us more than they did in the books that early, but that does not mean they are showing us everything.

It is pretty clear from the books that Tyrells manipulated Renly to an extent, through Loras and Margaery and the "shaving scene" fits into this perfectly. The things Loras tells Renly could have been put into his pretty little head by Olenna the Queen of Thorns - there is nothing to suggest otherwise (and Loras could very well believe these things - unlike Margaery, he is not that smart, so Olenna could have manipulated him as well). In fact, the shaving scene imo is a very convincing example of how the whole thing could have been started.

As a side note, for the record, there is no plot by the Lord of Highgarden, but by the mother of the Lord - as far as we know from the books, Mace Tyrell is a big oaf.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2011, 04:45:07 PM
Well, Marty may have a point here.. Tyrell's don't seem to feel the need to follow the proper order of inheritance in both the cases of Renly and Tommen.

in other news, I found a non-spoilered forum for the TV show at televisionwithoutpity.com and among the misunderstandings, bookwalker spoilers and stuff proven wrong in the books I found a little gem. I'm paraphrasing it to cut out the useless rambling around explanation.

One of the posters seemed to think that the attempt to murder Bran was not to cover up for his witnessing the incest, but rather an unrelated plot to convince the Starks that the Lannisters were evil (which seems to be the effect) by murdering Bran after he fell to get the Starks to blame the Lannisters. In this case the person behind this plot would obviously not have known that Jamie actually threw Bran out of the tower. It actually made sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2011, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
I disagree on both counts. Both examples you quote come from the fact that these were POVs not available in the books, so we could not see these conversations. We know already from later books that Jaime is quite a likeable character.

His motivations are shown to be more complex and he matures as the result of experience, but "quite likeable"?? - no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 19, 2011, 05:28:21 PM
He's likeable in the sense that I enjoy reading his chapters and about him, in general.  Other than that, not so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 19, 2011, 05:39:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 19, 2011, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
I disagree on both counts. Both examples you quote come from the fact that these were POVs not available in the books, so we could not see these conversations. We know already from later books that Jaime is quite a likeable character.

His motivations are shown to be more complex and he matures as the result of experience, but "quite likeable"?? - no.

I guess he's likeable compared to Cersei...................but that's not saying much  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 19, 2011, 05:40:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 04:34:50 PM
Nope. I think you are reading more into that scene than there is. They are showing us more than they did in the books that early, but that does not mean they are showing us everything.

They are showing us something that didnt happen in the books at all.  There was no gay sex  in the books.  There was a lot of other sex but no gay sex.  That was just put into the series to attract gay viewers.  All you are left with is, well if we imagine something that didnt happen in the books that might have been in some way consistent this might be one of those possible things.

Which is really my point isnt it.  They have added material for no particular reason (or rather reasons other than being try to the books) at the cost of not including great material that was in the books.  Rather than seeing shaving scene I would rather have seen the flaming sword in action during the tournament - as just one example of the really interesting stuff missed because of this alt version of the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 19, 2011, 06:30:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 04:34:50 PM
As a side note, for the record, there is no plot by the Lord of Highgarden, but by the mother of the Lord - as far as we know from the books, Mace Tyrell is a big oaf.

Olenna certainly plots on a higher level than Mace but there is no doubt he wants one of his kids on the throne and is plotting to do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 19, 2011, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 19, 2011, 02:20:37 AM
I'm just happily awaiting the deaths of the faggots.

I hope it's bloody.

You know that Loras doesn't die, right? In fact he goes into a blood rage and kills everybody after Renly dies. :P

He may be referring to the boiling oil thingy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2011, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 19, 2011, 06:30:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 04:34:50 PM
As a side note, for the record, there is no plot by the Lord of Highgarden, but by the mother of the Lord - as far as we know from the books, Mace Tyrell is a big oaf.

Olenna certainly plots on a higher level than Mace but there is no doubt he wants one of his kids on the throne and is plotting to do it.

I'd rate the Queen of Thorns as the nr2 plotter in the game ahead of Tywin and behind Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 19, 2011, 07:41:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 08:46:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

Yes we do, and the wildlings do march south.
Now, that's more like it :)  Someone was playing me for a fool  :mad:
Can't be bothered to look back who it was though.

These things, do we know what they are exactly?  The people they killed, how did they bring them back to life, zombie-style?
Well the wildlings did march south so we know a lot about them, about the White Walkers we've seen little of them, so don't know much beyond that they're scary and evil.
I confused both then.  I mean the undead skeletons, not the humans living beyond the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 19, 2011, 07:56:25 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 19, 2011, 07:41:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 08:46:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

Yes we do, and the wildlings do march south.
Now, that's more like it :)  Someone was playing me for a fool  :mad:
Can't be bothered to look back who it was though.

These things, do we know what they are exactly?  The people they killed, how did they bring them back to life, zombie-style?
Well the wildlings did march south so we know a lot about them, about the White Walkers we've seen little of them, so don't know much beyond that they're scary and evil.
I confused both then.  I mean the undead skeletons, not the humans living beyond the wall.
Probably going to invade in the next book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2011, 08:29:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2011, 04:45:07 PM
One of the posters seemed to think that the attempt to murder Bran was not to cover up for his witnessing the incest, but rather an unrelated plot to convince the Starks that the Lannisters were evil (which seems to be the effect) by murdering Bran after he fell to get the Starks to blame the Lannisters. In this case the person behind this plot would obviously not have known that Jamie actually threw Bran out of the tower. It actually made sense.
I thought we knew that Joffrey ordered that murder, and had no idea that Jaime had been the one to cause the fall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 19, 2011, 09:37:25 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 19, 2011, 07:41:13 PM
I confused both then.  I mean the undead skeletons, not the humans living beyond the wall.

Well yeah...eventually.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 12:34:38 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2011, 05:40:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2011, 04:34:50 PM
Nope. I think you are reading more into that scene than there is. They are showing us more than they did in the books that early, but that does not mean they are showing us everything.

They are showing us something that didnt happen in the books at all.  There was no gay sex  in the books.  There was a lot of other sex but no gay sex.  That was just put into the series to attract gay viewers.  All you are left with is, well if we imagine something that didnt happen in the books that might have been in some way consistent this might be one of those possible things.

Which is really my point isnt it.  They have added material for no particular reason (or rather reasons other than being try to the books) at the cost of not including great material that was in the books.  Rather than seeing shaving scene I would rather have seen the flaming sword in action during the tournament - as just one example of the really interesting stuff missed because of this alt version of the books.

What do you mean "did not happen in the books"? They are showing us scenes that were not showed in the books, but they likely happened (same goes for the Cersei and Robert scenes, or the Varys and Littlefingers exchanges).

To me, these scenes are actually one of the best part about the show so far, since they add interesting PoVs and develop characters. You are suggesting a slavish recreation of the books, as if they were a script (and the show is already surprisingly faithful to the books, considering a completely different medium) - if they did it, it would be very boring for me, as someone who read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 12:38:52 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 19, 2011, 07:41:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 08:46:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 18, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
well except the "White Walkers" they are sorta important.
I thought they would be, but someone here said we would never see them again.

Yes we do, and the wildlings do march south.
Now, that's more like it :)  Someone was playing me for a fool  :mad:
Can't be bothered to look back who it was though.

These things, do we know what they are exactly?  The people they killed, how did they bring them back to life, zombie-style?
Well the wildlings did march south so we know a lot about them, about the White Walkers we've seen little of them, so don't know much beyond that they're scary and evil.
I confused both then.  I mean the undead skeletons, not the humans living beyond the wall.

Just to clarify (in case you have them confused, as it is common), the Others are not zombies - they are the "icy Predators". They raise zombies from human corpses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 12:39:48 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 19, 2011, 08:29:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2011, 04:45:07 PM
One of the posters seemed to think that the attempt to murder Bran was not to cover up for his witnessing the incest, but rather an unrelated plot to convince the Starks that the Lannisters were evil (which seems to be the effect) by murdering Bran after he fell to get the Starks to blame the Lannisters. In this case the person behind this plot would obviously not have known that Jamie actually threw Bran out of the tower. It actually made sense.
I thought we knew that Joffrey ordered that murder, and had no idea that Jaime had been the one to cause the fall.

Yeah, I thought it was canon already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2011, 12:50:39 AM
I think those scenes are fine, but not at all for the reasons that Marty does.

The books get hundreds of pages to subtly develop plots and relationships. Martin is good at it too - by the time Robert goes off on his hunt, you know all about his relationship with Cersei, why they hate each other, what happened to bring them to where they are - and the author has the luxury of revealing that carefully and slowly.

You don't get that in a TV show. There simply is not time. So you ahve to be a little more blunt about telling the viewer what is going on and why. SO Cersei and Robert just having a discussion about it certainly is not very subtle, but hey - it is important for the viewer to understand.

I think those scenes are important not because they keep things interesting for those who have already read the books, but because it provides nuance to the characters that those who read the books take for granted, but those who have NOT read the books are likely to miss completely.

The problem here is that most of us HAVE read the books. So we go into the show already knowing why Cersei and Robert have a such a screwed up marriage, so those extra scenes makes us think "Hey, that wasn't in the book! Why are they adding stuff that isn't even necessary?". It seems superfulous. But it isn't - if you have not read the books, it is not at all obvious that Renly and Loras are lovers, and very close. After the scene in the show, that is clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 01:18:48 AM
Yeah I totally agree. I may have not been saying this directly, but that's what I meant when I said about this being a different medium.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 20, 2011, 01:53:45 AM
Yeah, Berkut is right.

The Cersei-Robert scene did nothing except compassing a lot of subtle hints in the book into a TV-compatible format. Same goes for the gay scene. Really, I much rather have that, than having to waste time episode after episode on subtle hints about the magnitude of faggottness of that two.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2011, 04:35:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 12:39:48 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 19, 2011, 08:29:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2011, 04:45:07 PM
One of the posters seemed to think that the attempt to murder Bran was not to cover up for his witnessing the incest, but rather an unrelated plot to convince the Starks that the Lannisters were evil (which seems to be the effect) by murdering Bran after he fell to get the Starks to blame the Lannisters. In this case the person behind this plot would obviously not have known that Jamie actually threw Bran out of the tower. It actually made sense.
I thought we knew that Joffrey ordered that murder, and had no idea that Jaime had been the one to cause the fall.

Yeah, I thought it was canon already.

We get that Idea from a Tyrion POV where Tyrion, after Joffrey hacks Tyrions wedding present into small bits asks if he wants a knife instead and describes the knife. Joffs response is "You... yes" and then goes on how he wants a much fancier knife. Apparently this convinces Tyrion, I think it is quite possible that Joff is freaked out and thinks that Tyrion just threatened to have him stabbed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 20, 2011, 04:42:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 20, 2011, 04:35:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 12:39:48 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 19, 2011, 08:29:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2011, 04:45:07 PM
One of the posters seemed to think that the attempt to murder Bran was not to cover up for his witnessing the incest, but rather an unrelated plot to convince the Starks that the Lannisters were evil (which seems to be the effect) by murdering Bran after he fell to get the Starks to blame the Lannisters. In this case the person behind this plot would obviously not have known that Jamie actually threw Bran out of the tower. It actually made sense.
I thought we knew that Joffrey ordered that murder, and had no idea that Jaime had been the one to cause the fall.

Yeah, I thought it was canon already.

We get that Idea from a Tyrion POV where Tyrion, after Joffrey hacks Tyrions wedding present into small bits asks if he wants a knife instead and describes the knife. Joffs response is "You... yes" and then goes on how he wants a much fancier knife. Apparently this convinces Tyrion, I think it is quite possible that Joff is freaked out and thinks that Tyrion just threatened to have him stabbed.

Jaime later comes to the same conclusion, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2011, 04:59:13 AM
Quote
Which is really my point isnt it.  They have added material for no particular reason (or rather reasons other than being try to the books) at the cost of not including great material that was in the books.  Rather than seeing shaving scene I would rather have seen the flaming sword in action during the tournament - as just one example of the really interesting stuff missed because of this alt version of the books.
Definitely. Its going to be weird for Thoros to totally pop out of nowhere. He and Beric already sort of do, I can't recall them appearing early in the books beside people talking about them a little and they've been doing this somewhat with Thoros in the series but still....seeing the melee would have ruled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 20, 2011, 05:07:20 AM
Beric appeared at the tournament in the books. The tournament did serve as an early introduction to various characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2011, 05:26:43 AM
Regarding Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr, I'd guess that many secondary or tertiary characters will be scrapped or merged, so it's no wonder that they haven't gotten any screentime yet.

For instance, the Blackfish Brynden Tully hasn't been mentioned yet, even though he's supposed to be at the Vale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2011, 08:17:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 20, 2011, 04:59:13 AM
Quote
Which is really my point isnt it.  They have added material for no particular reason (or rather reasons other than being try to the books) at the cost of not including great material that was in the books.  Rather than seeing shaving scene I would rather have seen the flaming sword in action during the tournament - as just one example of the really interesting stuff missed because of this alt version of the books.
Definitely. Its going to be weird for Thoros to totally pop out of nowhere. He and Beric already sort of do, I can't recall them appearing early in the books beside people talking about them a little and they've been doing this somewhat with Thoros in the series but still....seeing the melee would have ruled.
Jamie and Jory talked about Thoros during their conversation, so it won't be out of nowhere.

EDIT: GRRM said the Blackfish will be in the next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 20, 2011, 08:19:27 AM
Bläckfisk in Swedish means octopus/squid. :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2011, 09:39:07 AM
http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html (http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html)

VERY interesting entry on Martin's blog about the next book, with lots of tidbits about chapters, length, POVs, new characters and so on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 09:42:10 AM
Yes that was a very interesting not-a-blog post.

New POVs (IMO):

Melisandre
Quentyn Martell
Barristan The Bold
New character we have never seen before.

Not counting the Prologue and Epilogue guys who die of course.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2011, 09:47:10 AM
I heard Winds of Winter is going to be delayed though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 09:48:32 AM
Educated guesses on the returning ones:

Tyrion Lannister
Daenerys Targaryen
Jon Snow
Davos Seaworth
Bran Stark
Asha Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Another returning Greyjoy...but not Damphair...Theon?  Yeah it must be...odd.
Cersei Lannister
Jaime Lannister
Arya Stark
Areo Hotah
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 09:50:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2011, 09:47:10 AM
I heard Winds of Winter is going to be delayed though.

I am not expecting it until 2017 :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2011, 09:55:52 AM
I am guessing we are going to see POV from Catelyn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2011, 09:58:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 09:48:32 AM
Educated guesses on the returning ones:

Tyrion Lannister
Daenerys Targaryen
Jon Snow
Davos Seaworth
Bran Stark
Asha Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Another returning Greyjoy...but not Damphair...Theon?  Yeah it must be...odd.
Cersei Lannister
Jaime Lannister
Arya Stark
Areo Hotah

Wiki to the rescue!  :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dance_with_Dragons#Characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dance_with_Dragons#Characters)

Damn, there was lot of info about it already out.

Regarding your Greyjoy guess, from the link:

Quote- Reek: Theon Greyjoy, presumed-dead son of recently deceased King Balon Greyjoy of the Iron Islands, a captive of Ramsay Bolton and now tortured, starved and barely sane.

Also, check the part at the end:

QuotePOV chapters for Sansa Stark, Samwell Tarly, Aeron Damphair, Arianne Martell, and Brienne of Tarth were written for the book, but they will instead tentatively appear in the next book, The Winds of Winter.

So we know what she said when about to be hanged...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 09:59:12 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2011, 09:55:52 AM
I am guessing we are going to see POV from Catelyn.

That would be...interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 10:00:23 AM
Ah ok.  Yeah that sounds like Ramsay.

More Boltons is more fun.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 10:02:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 20, 2011, 09:58:04 AM
So we know what she said when about to be hanged...

Well I know GRRM likes to kill the good people but if she dies her whole story arc in AFFC would be just a really long red herring.

Well unless he makes Podrick a new POV or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 20, 2011, 10:24:24 AM
So Stoneheart's making a PoV appearance?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2011, 10:25:02 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 20, 2011, 08:19:27 AM
Bläckfisk in Swedish means octopus/squid. :hmm:


Inkfish /= Blackfish
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 10:25:25 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2011, 10:24:24 AM
So Stoneheart's making a PoV appearance?

In all seriousness I think ADWD will leave the plot in the Riverlands alone.

And Berkut was joking :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2011, 10:27:15 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2011, 10:24:24 AM
So Stoneheart's making a PoV appearance?

?

12 tightly packed pages of

Brains Brains Brains Brains Brains Brains Brains
Revenge on the Freys!!! Revenge on the Boltons!!!
Brains Brains Brains Brains Brains Brains Brains
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: ulmont on May 20, 2011, 10:47:05 AM
Blog devoted to recipes from the Game of Thrones books:
http://innatthecrossroads.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 03:30:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 09:42:10 AM
Yes that was a very interesting not-a-blog post.

New POVs (IMO):

Melisandre
Quentyn Martell
Barristan The Bold
New character we have never seen before.

Not counting the Prologue and Epilogue guys who die of course.

Are you talking the Dance of Dragons or the next book? The DoD is to be set entirely over the Narrow Sea so some of these choices are no-go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 03:30:36 PM
Are you talking the Dance of Dragons or the next book? The DoD is to be set entirely over the Narrow Sea so some of these choices are no-go.

The Wall and the Narrow Sea.  All those are either at one or the other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2011, 03:49:56 PM
The Wall, the North and Essos. Reek/Theon has chapters iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 04:01:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2011, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 03:30:36 PM
Are you talking the Dance of Dragons or the next book? The DoD is to be set entirely over the Narrow Sea so some of these choices are no-go.

The Wall and the Narrow Sea.  All those are either at one or the other.
Oh, ok.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2011, 04:17:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2011, 03:30:36 PM
Are you talking the Dance of Dragons or the next book? The DoD is to be set entirely over the Narrow Sea so some of these choices are no-go.
You sure?
I'm certain it has been mentioned there are a handfull of Jaime/Cersei chapters, quite a lot in Dorne and the Iron Islands and some stuff with the Boltons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on May 20, 2011, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 20, 2011, 10:24:24 AM
So Stoneheart's making a PoV appearance?

No.





Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2011, 05:36:45 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

Could do with a bit of plastic reconstructive surgery?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

That he is essentially a righteous man.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:42:17 PM
 :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 04:39:05 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

That he is essentially a righteous man.  :hmm:

Mycah begs to differ.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 04:39:05 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

That he is essentially a righteous man.  :hmm:

Mycah begs to differ.

Mycah doesn't have a say any more.

Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 04:39:05 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

That he is essentially a righteous man.  :hmm:

Mycah begs to differ.

Mycah doesn't have a say any more.

Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.
:rolleyes:

Lady is a wolf, Mycah is a human being, they're not the same.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 04:39:05 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

That he is essentially a righteous man.  :hmm:

Mycah begs to differ.

Mycah doesn't have a say any more.

Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.

Agreed, Ned's "Ai wass djost fallawink orders" schtick don't work. Both Arya and Sansa saw threw it and they are just little brats.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.

Agreed, Ned's "Ai wass djost fallawink orders" schtick don't work. Both Arya and Sansa saw threw it and they are just little brats.
So unjustly killing a wolf is as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  Is that your position?  Because that is the position to which you just "agreed."

Kinda curious how far your equivalence to a human goes, below wolves.  Is unjustly killing a bird as  as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  A snail?  A microbe?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:00:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.

Agreed, Ned's "Ai wass djost fallawink orders" schtick don't work. Both Arya and Sansa saw threw it and they are just little brats.
So unjustly killing a wolf is as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  Is that your position?  Because that is the position to which you just "agreed."

Kinda curious how far your equivalence to a human goes, below wolves.  Is unjustly killing a bird as  as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  A snail?  A microbe?

They are merely ink on paper. Both are mere plot devices. It's fiction dickwad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2011, 08:07:57 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 07:52:41 AM
So unjustly killing a wolf is as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  Is that your position?  Because that is the position to which you just "agreed."

Depends on the wolf, I suppose. It would be in Narnia or Middle Earth, probably not in Westeros though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:23:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 04:39:05 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 20, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Gotta say, it clearly appears the writers of GoT agree with my opinion on Sandor.  :hmm:

What was your opinion of Sandor?

That he is essentially a righteous man.  :hmm:

Mycah begs to differ.

Mycah doesn't have a say any more.

Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.
:rolleyes:

Lady is a wolf, Mycah is a human being, they're not the same.

Why not?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.

Agreed, Ned's "Ai wass djost fallawink orders" schtick don't work. Both Arya and Sansa saw threw it and they are just little brats.
So unjustly killing a wolf is as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  Is that your position?  Because that is the position to which you just "agreed."

Kinda curious how far your equivalence to a human goes, below wolves.  Is unjustly killing a bird as  as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  A snail?  A microbe?

For all intents and purposes, equivalence can be measured in the amount of empathy someone feels for the subject. Killing a little girl's beloved puppy is more villainous than killing her paedophile step-father.

You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:28:29 AM
BTW, I expect Sansa to warg into Sandor before the series is over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:00:51 AM
They are merely ink on paper. Both are mere plot devices. It's fiction dickwad.
:lol:  "They are merely ink on paper" and you get your panties so far in a wad that you start throwing out the personal insults?

Very mature.  :bowler:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:31:08 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 07:14:06 AM
Regardless, he's no more a villain for killing Mycah than Stark is for killing Lady.

Agreed, Ned's "Ai wass djost fallawink orders" schtick don't work. Both Arya and Sansa saw threw it and they are just little brats.
So unjustly killing a wolf is as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  Is that your position?  Because that is the position to which you just "agreed."

Kinda curious how far your equivalence to a human goes, below wolves.  Is unjustly killing a bird as  as villainous as unjustly killing a person?  A snail?  A microbe?

For all intents and purposes, equivalence can be measured in the amount of empathy someone feels for the subject. Killing a little girl's beloved puppy is more villainous than killing her paedophile step-father.

You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.

You are an atheist as well :contract:

How does anything follow from atheism?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:00:51 AM
They are merely ink on paper. Both are mere plot devices. It's fiction dickwad.
:lol:  "They are merely ink on paper" and you get your panties so far in a wad that you start throwing out the personal insults?

Very mature.  :bowler:

I always throw insults at you, you are richly deserving of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.
Red herring much?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:39:05 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:31:08 AM

You are an atheist as well :contract:

How does anything follow from atheism?

Am I? I really don't know.

It doesn't, really.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:40:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.
Red herring much?

A bumblebee died on my floor this morning. A very sad sight.

How is that death any less filled with meaning than any random death of a person I feel nothing for?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 21, 2011, 08:57:59 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
Lady is a wolf, Mycah is a human being, they're not the same.

QFT
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:00:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:40:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.
Red herring much?

A bumblebee died on my floor this morning. A very sad sight.

How is that death any less filled with meaning than any random death of a person I feel nothing for?

It matters more because I would hope that my death would matter more to a random person who feels nothing for me. Reciprocal granting of value and rights is what matters. The bumblebee can't grant me value and rights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on May 21, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.

That's the most ridiculous thing you've posted in a great long while.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 21, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 08:28:01 AM
You atheists crossed that line when you determined humans have no souls and as such are no more or less worth than any other conglomerate of molecules OTHER than in their value to others.

That's the most ridiculous thing you've posted in a great long while.

You're blind and deaf in the land of the one-eyed.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

I'm delusional because I think that bumblebees don't have the capability for abstract thought?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:37:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

I'm delusional because I think that bumblebees don't have the capability for abstract thought?

You are delusional because you think anyone thinks you matter.

Well, aside from the people who know you. [though perhaps scant few of them as well  :P ]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

I'm delusional because I think that bumblebees don't have the capability for abstract thought?
They can communicate distance and direction with dance. That's pretty abstract isn't it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:42:24 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:37:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

I'm delusional because I think that bumblebees don't have the capability for abstract thought?

You are delusional because you think anyone thinks you matter.

Well, aside from the people who know you. [though perhaps scant few of them as well  :P ]

duude, most people aren't sociopaths, like me and you. They actually care.... Bumblebees don't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 21, 2011, 09:43:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

I'm delusional because I think that bumblebees don't have the capability for abstract thought?
They can communicate distance and direction with dance. That's pretty abstract isn't it?

I've tried this.  I have made people leave due to my dancing, however, they did not go where my dance directed them to.  Oh well, more sweet nectar for me!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
They can communicate distance and direction with dance. That's pretty abstract isn't it?

No, it's not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:42:24 AM
duude, most people aren't sociopaths, like me and you. They actually care.... Bumblebees don't.

They do?

I am not convinced.

But of course, your point certainly merits consideration.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2011, 10:30:57 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
I always throw insults at you, you are richly deserving of them.
And I enjoy it when you do, as it shows the intellectual bankruptcy of your position.  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2011, 07:17:19 PM
Hey Marty the fat man is going to be in Poland in June: http://festiwal.solarisnet.pl/

You can go dump glitter on him or something.  Presuming that is actually near where you are I cannot understand anything that website says.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2011, 10:06:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2011, 07:17:19 PM
Presuming that is actually near where you are I cannot understand anything that website says.

Why would it being near where Martinus is determine whether you can understand the website?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2011, 10:33:42 PM
Downloaded and watched all 5 episodes.  It's quite well done I find.  The cast works surprisingly well.  Even Cersei.  It's been so long since I read the books I can't identify glaring inconsistencies.  Although the lovely knight of the flower wasn't with the King's brother if I remember correctly.

Anyhow - I'll be following it from now on.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2011, 10:47:26 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2011, 10:33:42 PM
Although the lovely knight of the flower wasn't with the King's brother if I remember correctly.

No, they were definitely together, though it's not as obvious in the books as the show makes it. 

On the same note, Loras was Renly's squire, so it makes me curious as to which one of them converted the other.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:01:05 AM
I love how several people have chosen avatars from the show.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 22, 2011, 03:20:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:01:05 AM
I love how several people have chosen avatars from the show.  :lol:

"several" as in "two" or "the faggots"?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:23:04 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 22, 2011, 03:20:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:01:05 AM
I love how several people have chosen avatars from the show.  :lol:

"several" as in "two" or "the faggots"?

Nope. Someone has a Tyrion avatar too.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:23:28 AM
Btw, for EdAnger, a new gif of "heavy clapping" :P

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F28.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_llcwk2PTRK1qfv91lo1_500.gif&hash=16a74c6f8a18652c54746dce0cda14f9ca5518c2)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 22, 2011, 05:30:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:01:05 AM
I love how several people have chosen avatars from the show.  :lol:

Eva Damen hasn't been cast as Brienne, but she is a favorite for the role.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 06:12:55 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 05:30:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:01:05 AM
I love how several people have chosen avatars from the show.  :lol:

Eva Damen hasn't been cast as Brienne, but she is a favorite for the role.

Oh, it's a chick in your avatar? I thought it was a particularly ugly guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 22, 2011, 06:16:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 06:12:55 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 05:30:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2011, 03:01:05 AM
I love how several people have chosen avatars from the show.  :lol:

Eva Damen hasn't been cast as Brienne, but she is a favorite for the role.

Oh, it's a chick in your avatar? I thought it was a particularly ugly guy.

In that case, if she gets the role it will have been inspired casting... assuming she can act...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 22, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
I just realized the horrible Irony of picking an avatar that is madly in love with martinus' avatar....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 22, 2011, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
I just realized the horrible Irony of picking an avatar that is madly in love with martinus' avatar....

Now, is it truly ironic, or merely interesting?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 22, 2011, 05:48:32 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2011, 09:43:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2011, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Delusion.

I'm delusional because I think that bumblebees don't have the capability for abstract thought?
They can communicate distance and direction with dance. That's pretty abstract isn't it?

I've tried this.  I have made people leave due to my dancing, however, they did not go where my dance directed them to.  Oh well, more sweet nectar for me!

Well, I thought it was funny. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 22, 2011, 09:44:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
I just realized the horrible Irony of picking an avatar that is madly in love with martinus' avatar....
Former avatar, no?  He has Renly now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 22, 2011, 09:54:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2011, 10:06:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2011, 07:17:19 PM
Presuming that is actually near where you are I cannot understand anything that website says.

Why would it being near where Martinus is determine whether you can understand the website?  :hmm:

Because I do not know where exactly in Poland it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 22, 2011, 10:15:49 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 22, 2011, 09:44:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
I just realized the horrible Irony of picking an avatar that is madly in love with martinus' avatar....
Former avatar, no?  He has Renly now.

And Brienne was in love with...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 22, 2011, 10:21:56 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 22, 2011, 10:15:49 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 22, 2011, 09:44:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
I just realized the horrible Irony of picking an avatar that is madly in love with martinus' avatar....
Former avatar, no?  He has Renly now.

And Brienne was in love with...
Oh.  For some reason I was confusing her with someone else I guess.  :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 22, 2011, 11:51:01 PM
Thjere is a girl in muy avatar.
She is hott.

Best mermaid evah.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmoviesmedia.ign.com%2Fmovies%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F116%2F1168491%2Fpirates-of-the-caribbean-on-stranger-tides-20110516085009766.jpg&hash=bf481e622db0bb608100d50f297af40341e93158)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 22, 2011, 11:57:39 PM
I'm becoming more and more of a Jorah Mormont fan every week.  I like his character in the books as well so far (1/3 of the way into A Clash of Kings).  Tonight's episode was pretty good.  Once again, some straying from the book, but nothing game breaking or character altering really.  The lack of the direwolves to demolish the wildlings was a bit of a let down though. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 23, 2011, 01:31:59 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 22, 2011, 11:51:01 PM
Thjere is a girl in muy avatar.
She is hott.

I'm still seeing Master Chief.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2011, 01:44:52 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 23, 2011, 01:31:59 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 22, 2011, 11:51:01 PM
Thjere is a girl in muy avatar.
She is hott.

I'm still seeing Master Chief.
Maybe Samus is inside?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 23, 2011, 03:14:56 AM
I'm getting a sense of deja vu.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 22, 2011, 11:51:01 PM
Thjere is a girl in muy avatar.
She is hott.

Best mermaid evah.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmoviesmedia.ign.com%2Fmovies%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F11e-caribbean-on-stranger-tides-20110516085009766.jpg&hash=8c78597d5c734d9ad8f5471ac493435b93427f5a)

Who is that and what is the relevance to GoT?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 23, 2011, 06:54:34 AM
Ugh. I tried to watch the next episode on HBOGo, but the damn website is too slow becuase of all the geeks who want to see it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 23, 2011, 07:09:23 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 22, 2011, 09:44:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 22, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
I just realized the horrible Irony of picking an avatar that is madly in love with martinus' avatar....
Former avatar, no?  He has Renly now.

Brienne was in love with both Renly and (maybe) Jaime, so both of Martinus' avatars. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2011, 07:38:58 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 23, 2011, 06:54:34 AM
Ugh. I tried to watch the next episode on HBOGo, but the damn website is too slow becuase of all the geeks who want to see it.
I really wanted to watch the two episodes back to back but I can't find episode 7 anywhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 23, 2011, 10:18:46 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2011, 07:38:58 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 23, 2011, 06:54:34 AM
Ugh. I tried to watch the next episode on HBOGo, but the damn website is too slow becuase of all the geeks who want to see it.
I really wanted to watch the two episodes back to back but I can't find episode 7 anywhere.

http://www.hbogo.com/ It won't work for us tho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 23, 2011, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
Who is that and what is the relevance to GoT?

Character from the new Pirates of the Carribean movie and none.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2011, 11:48:33 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2Fenhanced-buzz-12406-1305751171-3.jpg&hash=eb29dc44b09455b04d00ced0227b698e897e9318)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 02:14:34 PM
Hahah just finished watching it. Another great episode.

Tyrion and Bronn totally rock. I love Danny - her scenes are just like in the books - otherworldly and awesome.

Littlefinger - can he be more obvious? :D

Nice to see Renly find some balls (when Loras is not sucking on them) and tell Robert he is full of shit.

Loved Arya's "Seven Hells".

Sansa seems to have my talent for picking up boyfriends.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2011, 02:34:59 PM
I liked the scene where the one dude threw the strumpet a dubloon for one last look at her cookie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2011, 02:34:59 PM
I liked the scene where the one dude threw the strumpet a dubloon for one last look at her cookie.

It was a golden dragon. Or a silver stag.  :secret:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2011, 02:40:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 02:37:08 PM
It was a golden dragon. Or a silver stag.  :secret:

:hmm:

No, pretty sure she's a natural readhead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 23, 2011, 02:54:48 PM
Renly seems a lot angstier than in the books.

And moaning about people dying while boning one of the best knights in Westeros (whose job is to make people die) doesn't fly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 23, 2011, 02:57:46 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 23, 2011, 02:54:48 PM
Renly seems a lot angstier than in the books.

And moaning about people dying while boning one of the best knights in Westeros (whose job is to make people die) doesn't fly.

I thought idea that this was his justification for wanting to take over.  He would run things better.

Of course his claim to Cat in ACOK that his huge army was all the legitimacy he needed sorta flies in the face of this idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 03:00:41 PM
I thought that in the books he is said to be more "caring about the people" but this is never really shown, so I guess they are using it in the tv series in the "director's cut scenes".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 03:01:30 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 23, 2011, 02:54:48 PM
Renly seems a lot angstier than in the books.

And moaning about people dying while boning one of the best knights in Westeros (whose job is to make people die) doesn't fly.

You would be surprised about political views and life stances of people I was in love with. Just sayin'.

People fall in love with people much different from themselves, doubly (quadruply?) so when you have a limited number of potential paramours in a not exactly accepting society.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 23, 2011, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 03:00:41 PM
I thought that in the books he is said to be more "caring about the people" but this is never really shown, so I guess they are using it in the tv series in the "director's cut scenes".

I don't remember him being mentioned as particularly caring. He's said to be able to make friends easily, and is popular because of this, which causes him to consider himself a better candidate for kingship than the unloved Stannis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2011, 04:05:29 PM
The hunting looked woefully lame.

QuoteRenly seems a lot angstier than in the books.

And moaning about people dying while boning one of the best knights in Westeros (whose job is to make people die) doesn't fly.
He's a knight in a peaceful time. A tournament knight pretty much. More akin to a superstar footballer than a soldier.

Renly being caring: it has been said that the people love him for sure. Not so sure this is because he's caring though, more just that he is charismatic. He does strike me as the sort who went riding through a town would throw a bunch of coins behind him just to make people like him though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 04:13:31 PM
LOL yeah. Two things I thought:

1. Kings don't go hunting in a company of four.

2. Gold does not melt and/or soldify that fast.

:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 23, 2011, 04:19:29 PM
The Hunting scene established certain things.

- Renly has a different personality and view of ruling as his brother Robert
- They hunt boar with spear on foot alone
- Robert hunts while drunk
- Barristan the Bold is at Roberts side during the hunting

now they can have Robert return injured from the Kingswood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 04:21:21 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 23, 2011, 04:19:29 PM
The Hunting scene established certain things.

- Renly has a different personality and view of ruling as his brother Robert
- They hunt boar with spear on foot alone
- Robert hunts while drunk
- Barristan the Bold is at Roberts side during the hunting

now they can have Robert return injured from the Kingswood.

I know. The scenes are all very rich in "context". If anything, the show is at fault in having scenes so full of "context" and "exposition", it becomes a bit ridiculous (e.g. Littlefinger explaining stuff at the tournament, the hunt or Loras plotting between slurps and shaves).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2011, 05:04:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2011, 04:13:31 PM
LOL yeah. Two things I thought:

1. Kings don't go hunting in a company of four.

2. Gold does not melt and/or soldify that fast.

:P

The gold thing I forgave as it was necessary for pacing. We'd be waiting a while with Varys screaming if we wanted it in real time, or have to cut away somewhere else for a while thus ruining the scene.

But yes on the hunting. Couldn't they have thrown in a few extras? It just looked so....fake. Having those four guys walking along through the forest in their normal clothes.

Quote
I know. The scenes are all very rich in "context". If anything, the show is at fault in having scenes so full of "context" and "exposition", it becomes a bit ridiculous (e.g. Littlefinger explaining stuff at the tournament, the hunt or Loras plotting between slurps and shaves).
Littlefinger saying to Ned today 'Fish, aren't they the Tully symbol? Tully...that's your wife's house isn't it?"
He may have said this in the book too...but still. A bit artificial.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 23, 2011, 05:45:22 PM
Would it be out of character though for Littlefinger to say that to Ned? It's sort of like him being a smart ass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 23, 2011, 06:49:30 PM
Just watched the 6th and 7th in a row. Damn I'm psyched.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 23, 2011, 07:53:16 PM
The 7th is supposed to be aired in the 29th - where did you get it?




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 23, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
They released Ep7 on HBOGO as a promo effort.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 23, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 23, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
They released Ep7 on HBOGO as a promo effort.

Larch isn't in the US tho.

Where Larch, where?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2011, 08:17:36 PM
If you watch it ahead of time, you'll have nothing to watch in six days.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 23, 2011, 09:05:36 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2011, 08:17:36 PM
If you watch it ahead of time, you'll have nothing to watch in six days.  :rolleyes:


So straight...  In six day we'll have a better copy and watch it again! :P




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 23, 2011, 09:40:15 PM
Grallon, Marti, and Grey Fox, did you get my message?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 23, 2011, 10:10:33 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 23, 2011, 09:40:15 PM
Grallon, Marti, and Grey Fox, did you get my message?


Yes and the 1st one worked.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 23, 2011, 10:30:57 PM
What was the point of the scene with Theon and the whore on the cart? I dont get it.

Renly wasn't so whiny in the books. He's oftentimes described as Robert's ghost. The tv Renly doesn't inspire confidence, they just make him out to be some spoiled kid crying for a throne.

Anyways. Stannis was always my guy. I hope they picked someone good to play his part.

And I don't know how they're going to develop Zombie Beric and Catelyn without having introduced Thoros...

Where's the Blackfish? Not that he's hugely important to the plot at this point, but it'd be cool to see him in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2011, 10:47:39 PM
Presumably, we'll find out the point of the whore and Theon.  Hopefully it wasn't just an excuse for flashing.

The Blackfish was pushed to season two since his role is rather minor in the first book.  Thoros only being mentioned but not actually shown is somewhat annoying, but at least Beric got a couple of lines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 23, 2011, 10:49:20 PM
Shows starting to lose me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2011, 12:25:20 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 23, 2011, 09:40:15 PM
Grallon, Marti, and Grey Fox, did you get my message?
Could I also get this message?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: Grallon on May 23, 2011, 09:05:36 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2011, 08:17:36 PM
If you watch it ahead of time, you'll have nothing to watch in six days.  :rolleyes:


So straight...  In six day we'll have a better copy and watch it again! :P


G.

Damn right, the copy of ep 7 that I could get my grubby hands on was of averagish quality, and had some annoying HBO menu pop-ups at the beginng while the dude that recorded it was fiddling with the settings.  :P

I take it that BA has already supplied you all with a working link, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 03:15:46 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 23, 2011, 10:49:20 PM
Shows starting to lose me.

Why? The last few episodes have been quite interesting, even if you already know what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 03:17:19 AM
I visited my brother on sunday and gave him a thumb drive with the first five episodes on it. He said he and his gf were going to watch one episode on monday, since she has an exam today. They got hooked and she insisted they watch all five in a row. My brother is smart enough to realize that he actually doesn't know what he doesn't know, so he merely hopes that Tyrion didn't murder bran and commented that it was a bit hard to follow who was who and how the characters all relate to each other. His gf was all "screw the exam tomorrow, lets watch one more episode".

There is some real love for this show outside of the "bookwalkers".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 03:36:24 AM
Re: The blackfish, Thoros, Dondarrion and the rest. For the people who read the books it's a pity and a dissapointment that they're not giving more prominent roles, but from the series' authors pov I guess it'd be a bitch to cast a guy for a glorified background role, and then keep him under contract and on hold for the next seasons until the character becomes relevant. From that pov I can understand pushing back the introduction of those characters until they become more prominent. Also, reading other forums where people who didn't read the books comment about the series, one of the main gripes they have is the huge amount of characters to keep track off, so adding guys who aren't going to be prominent until much later would be even more taxing and could loose a substantial amount of watchers for the show.

Taking that into account, it's quite puzzling the amount of screentime and dialogue lines that the Winterfell prostitute is getting.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 24, 2011, 05:03:12 AM
Theon and the whore on the cart- that was Roz I believe. The whore he has been to see a few times and spoke of being fond of.
I guess her leaving and not speaking well of him combined with Robb being nought but a dick but him is helping to push him back towards the arms of the Iron Islands.


QuoteRe: The blackfish, Thoros, Dondarrion and the rest. For the people who read the books it's a pity and a dissapointment that they're not giving more prominent roles, but from the series' authors pov I guess it'd be a bitch to cast a guy for a glorified background role, and then keep him under contract and on hold for the next seasons until the character becomes relevant. From that pov I can understand pushing back the introduction of those characters until they become more prominent. Also, reading other forums where people who didn't read the books comment about the series, one of the main gripes they have is the huge amount of characters to keep track off, so adding guys who aren't going to be prominent until much later would be even more taxing and could loose a substantial amount of watchers for the show.
Dondarrion was cast...I was wondering watching that whether they took care with that and will use this same guy.

With the Blackfish things would have been particularly messed up due to him being Cat's uncle. Extra confusing, having her sister living in this odd place is strange enough. I do wonder though how they'll fit him in and describe his black fishness. He can hardly just be hanging around with his brother. Been off travelling somewhere?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 24, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Thoros isn't important until Arya meets him and witnesses his resurrection skillz. Easier to introduce him in season 2 at the same time as Melisandre and the R'hllor religion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 05:13:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 24, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Thoros isn't important until Arya meets him and witnesses his resurrection skillz. Easier to introduce him in season 2 at the same time as Melisandre and the R'hllor religion.

Having a red-armored knight with a flaming sword in the meleé in the background during some dialogue giving exposition about some heraldic device or battle would have been really really cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 05:22:08 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2011, 05:13:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 24, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Thoros isn't important until Arya meets him and witnesses his resurrection skillz. Easier to introduce him in season 2 at the same time as Melisandre and the R'hllor religion.

Having a red-armored knight with a flaming sword in the meleé in the background during some dialogue giving exposition about some heraldic device or battle would have been really really cool.

I guess that a flaming sword wielding fighter would distract from the exposition.  :lol: It's already bad enough when they use sex scenes as excuses for info-dumping.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:47:01 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2011, 05:13:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 24, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Thoros isn't important until Arya meets him and witnesses his resurrection skillz. Easier to introduce him in season 2 at the same time as Melisandre and the R'hllor religion.

Having a red-armored knight with a flaming sword in the meleé in the background during some dialogue giving exposition about some heraldic device or battle would have been really really cool.

Yes and no. From what I understand, viewers already have a problem following that many characters, so adding one that won't appear until season 2 really makes no sense, since most people won't remember him anyway.

Plus that way they can get away with not having to cast him until season 2 (remember they would have had to hire him before they even knew there will be season 2).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:49:07 AM
I hope they use a gay sex scene to introduce Blackfish.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 05:53:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:49:07 AM
I hope they use a gay sex scene to introduce Blackfish.  :ph34r:

What a surprise, you also ascribe to the "the Blackfish is actually gay" theory.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 24, 2011, 05:55:04 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 23, 2011, 09:40:15 PM
Grallon, Marti, and Grey Fox, did you get my message?

Yes. Thanks mate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 24, 2011, 05:59:30 AM
Who the hell is Blackfish?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 06:01:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 05:53:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:49:07 AM
I hope they use a gay sex scene to introduce Blackfish.  :ph34r:

What a surprise, you also ascribe to the "the Blackfish is actually gay" theory.  :lol:

Well, it's not as clearly said as with Loras and Renly, but not unlikely. I think the fact that people are more likely to accept that someone may be "asexual" rather than "homosexual" is the funny one, considering this is against statistics.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 06:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 24, 2011, 05:59:30 AM
Who the hell is Blackfish?

Lord Hoster Tully's brother (and Catelyn's uncle). He left Riverrun and lives in the Aerie (sp?) after he refused to marry despite Hoster's direct order. He remains a "confirmed bachelor" (pre-modern codename for "homo").
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 05:22:08 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2011, 05:13:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 24, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Thoros isn't important until Arya meets him and witnesses his resurrection skillz. Easier to introduce him in season 2 at the same time as Melisandre and the R'hllor religion.

Having a red-armored knight with a flaming sword in the meleé in the background during some dialogue giving exposition about some heraldic device or battle would have been really really cool.

I guess that a flaming sword wielding fighter would distract from the exposition.  :lol: It's already bad enough when they use sex scenes as excuses for info-dumping.  :P

Half way through the exposition about the history of Harrenhall or the requirements for hatching a dragon egg and the tragedy of summerhall (just before the scene with dany and the brasier and the egg) one of the characters begins to stare over the shoulder of the one offering the exposition

QuoteArya: ......
Maester Pycelle: Girl are you listening?
Arya: .....
Septa Morane: Arya!
Arya: ......
Septa: Arya!!
Arya: Behind you, the flaming sword ....
Pycelle: eh what? oh, him. That's Thoros of Myr, the Red Priest.
Septa: The Warrior protect us, what sort of sorcery is that?

Cut

Show knight in red armor with flaming sword in meleé

Cut

Show knight with thunderbolt device in meleé, who just avoids getting hit

Cut

Show Jeyen Pool shreiking next to sansa and muttering

Jeyne Pool: Oh sweet Beric!

Sansa places hand on Jeyne's shoulder

Sansa: Look, he is still safe

Jeyne smiles


That way you don't need to cast Beric Dondarion, you'll just need to have Ned say that he will send Beric and Thoros of Myr to arrest Gregor Clegane.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 06:13:06 AM
Jeyne Poole hasn't been introduced in the series either, just talked about. You'd have to introduce her as well at the same time, and wonder where she had been hiding since they left Winterfell and arrived at King's Landing.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 24, 2011, 07:39:31 AM
Jeyne Poole does absolutely nothing in the books (except possibly being the fake Arya, which can be done with a random girl in the series).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 07:39:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 06:01:25 AM
Well, it's not as clearly said as with Loras and Renly, but not unlikely. I think the fact that people are more likely to accept that someone may be "asexual" rather than "homosexual" is the funny one, considering this is against statistics.

I think rather people decide not to come to a decision without some sort of evidence.  Him being gay has not really been hinted at beyond his not wanting to marry (and him being heterosexual has not been hinted at either) but really that is not really a good reason for a noble to not get married considering being married is about politics.  Renly got married after all.  Why would him being gay mean he would resist Hoster's call to do what is good for the dynasty?

Not saying he is not gay but I think the reason for him not getting married is supposed to be some sort of mystery beyond 'he is not into girls' or whatever.  Of course both could be true.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 07:39:55 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 06:13:06 AM
Jeyne Poole hasn't been introduced in the series either, just talked about. You'd have to introduce her as well at the same time, and wonder where she had been hiding since they left Winterfell and arrived at King's Landing.  :P

When was she talked about?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 08:10:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 07:39:55 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 06:13:06 AM
Jeyne Poole hasn't been introduced in the series either, just talked about. You'd have to introduce her as well at the same time, and wonder where she had been hiding since they left Winterfell and arrived at King's Landing.  :P

When was she talked about?

In the throne room scene between Sansa and her septa. When the septa says that she'll have boys and girls with Joffrey, she asks what'd happen if she only had girls, and puts Jeyne Poole as an example of a family with only girls, Jeyne herself and her four sisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 24, 2011, 08:25:54 AM
Blackfish could be gay. On the other hand he could be an absolute womaniser who will never tie himself down with one woman. And asexual people aren't too uncommon.

Jeyne Poole- Wasn't that Sansa's friend hanging around with her in the first episodes at Winterfell? (though absent in King's Landing...)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 10:58:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 24, 2011, 08:25:54 AM
Blackfish could be gay. On the other hand he could be an absolute womaniser who will never tie himself down with one woman. And asexual people aren't too uncommon.

Jeyne Poole- Wasn't that Sansa's friend hanging around with her in the first episodes at Winterfell? (though absent in King's Landing...)

Jeyne Poole was, along with Beth Cassel, was in the background in the first episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 24, 2011, 11:14:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 06:01:25 AM
I think the fact that people are more likely to accept that someone may be "asexual" rather than "homosexual" is the funny one, considering this is against statistics.
Can you make up some "statistics" to support your assertion?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 12:08:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 24, 2011, 11:14:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 06:01:25 AM
I think the fact that people are more likely to accept that someone may be "asexual" rather than "homosexual" is the funny one, considering this is against statistics.
Can you make up some "statistics" to support your assertion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality

Asexual people represent app. 1% of the population. That's lower than the estimated percentage of homosexual people (which is estimated at between 5 and 10%, usually).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 24, 2011, 12:08:49 PM
Asexual = fugly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 24, 2011, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 12:08:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 24, 2011, 11:14:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 06:01:25 AM
I think the fact that people are more likely to accept that someone may be "asexual" rather than "homosexual" is the funny one, considering this is against statistics.
Can you make up some "statistics" to support your assertion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality

Asexual people represent app. 1% of the population. That's lower than the estimated percentage of homosexual people (which is estimated at between 5 and 10%, usually).
Funny; I read that wikipedia article and discovered that
QuoteBased on the results, respondents were given a score ranging from 0 to 100 for hetero-eroticism and from 0 to 100 for homo-eroticism. Respondents who scored lower than 10 on both were labeled "asexual." This consisted of 5% of the males and 10% of the females.
So, right about the same as homosexuals.

Not that you aren't entitled to quote-mine for your "statistics;" this is the internet, and there are only three kinds of statistics on the internet:  lies, fucking lies, and "Polish lawyer" lies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:07:27 PM
QuoteFurther empirical data about an asexual demographic appeared in 1994, when a research team in the United Kingdom carried out a comprehensive survey of 18,876 British residents, spurred by the need for sexual information in the wake of the AIDS epidemic. The survey included a question on sexual attraction, to which a significant 1% of respondents replied that they had "never felt sexually attracted to anyone at all."[1] This phenomenon was seized upon by the Canadian sexuality researcher Dr. Anthony Bogaert, who explored the asexual demographic in a series of studies.[1][1] The 1% statistic from the UK survey is the one most frequently quoted as the possible incidence of asexuality in the general population, though it should be considered very tentative. Assuming this statistic holds true, the world population of asexual people would stand at over 60 million.

Kinsey's study also came up with app. 1%.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 01:16:11 PM
Of course in the UK only 1% identify as gay or Lesbian also.

QuoteAlmost three-quarters of a million UK adults say they are gay, lesbian or bisexual - equivalent to 1.5% of the population, a survey suggests.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) says 480,000 (1%) consider themselves gay or lesbian, and 245,000 (0.5%) bisexual.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398629
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 24, 2011, 01:26:28 PM
WTF does GoT have to do with gays and their numbers in society? Fuck that.

Episode 7 is awesome.

I so hated these parts in the book, as the world you learned about falls right apart in front of your eyes. The TV series is giving that back very nicely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 24, 2011, 01:26:28 PM
WTF does GoT have to do with gays and their numbers in society? Fuck that.

It seems Marty has determined Brynden Blackfish not marrying means he is either asexual or gay since no heterosexual man ever did not want to get married.  Since there are so few asexuals ergo he must be gay...or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
The show is becoming boring.  It doesnt capture the scale of the books.  The King of the Seven kingdoms heading out on foot with three others to hunt?  Instead of going low budget on that scene why not do what the book did and simply let the audience know that a big hunt has been arranged and then tell the audience what happened when the news of the "accident" gets back to the castle? As an added bonus we wouldnt have to see Renly coming off as a whiney little brother.  Its getting to the point I will be cheering when he dies.

The Tournament was a disaster.  There could at least have been some dialogue around all the events of the tournament and that all the knights of the Seven Kingdoms were coming to compete.  It would have been an easy thing to introduce concepts like the knight with the flaming sword in dialogue if they didnt have the budget to actually show it.  That kind of dialogue would have been a lot better than wasting time on Little Finger telling Sansa about the Hound - which was out of charcter and sequence.

Also, the heir to Winterfell goes off riding in the woods with his little brother to try out his new saddle with no escort - not even the wolves?

I turned it off when Sansa's scene started.  I might pick it up again out of curiousity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
cc - I suppose they are trying to conserve money for the long run. Apparently they are choosing to use the wolves as little as possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 24, 2011, 01:39:45 PM
I would agree with CC that they are kind of missing the "scale". The Kings Tourney seemed pretty small, for example. The entire thing seems rather small, like he said.

I don't agree that it is more than a minor negative though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:41:08 PM
Well you hunt a boar on foot tbh...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:41:08 PM
Well you hunt a boar on foot tbh...

He just wants that special George Lucas special edition with more Imperial Walkers CGI'd in the background.

Alright ok yes a sense of the scale is thrown off a bit but I can live with it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:46:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:41:08 PM
Well you hunt a boar on foot tbh...

He just wants that special George Lucas special edition with more Imperial Walkers CGI'd in the background.

Alright ok yes a sense of the scale is thrown off a bit but I can live with it.

Yeah I guess they could have just added like 10 random people walking in the background, and maybe someone with a horn or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 01:47:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:41:08 PM
Well you hunt a boar on foot tbh...

He just wants that special George Lucas special edition with more Imperial Walkers CGI'd in the background.

Alright ok yes a sense of the scale is thrown off a bit but I can live with it.

A few hunting horns and a few riders crossing the background might have made it a bit more "large scale".
I'll also agree that the tourney scene looked a bit like they borrowed the lists from a Renaissance fair.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 24, 2011, 01:47:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
The show is becoming boring.  It doesnt capture the scale of the books.  The King of the Seven kingdoms heading out on foot with three others to hunt?  Instead of going low budget on that scene why not do what the book did and simply let the audience know that a big hunt has been arranged and then tell the audience what happened when the news of the "accident" gets back to the castle? As an added bonus we wouldnt have to see Renly coming off as a whiney little brother.  Its getting to the point I will be cheering when he dies.

The Tournament was a disaster.  There could at least have been some dialogue around all the events of the tournament and that all the knights of the Seven Kingdoms were coming to compete.  It would have been an easy thing to introduce concepts like the knight with the flaming sword in dialogue if they didnt have the budget to actually show it.  That kind of dialogue would have been a lot better than wasting time on Little Finger telling Sansa about the Hound - which was out of charcter and sequence.

Also, the heir to Winterfell goes off riding in the woods with his little brother to try out his new saddle with no escort - not even the wolves?

I turned it off when Sansa's scene started.  I might pick it up again out of curiousity.

I would like to quote myself, from page 71:

Quote from: Slargos on May 18, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
That he misses some major ones certainly shouldn't be surprising since he hasn't actually read the books.  :hmm:
Quote
I'll come to it, given time :)
I want to see what's really different from the tv show.

At  some point, someone here is gonna come and say "this is ridiculous, the  author never intended X to be portrayed like that, I thought he was  more like "Y" or something like "I hate ghosts killing people, they are  ridiculous even if they are not green".
See, I can even read into the future now :P   
Tada!!  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:47:50 PM
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the tournament was fine and (while I have read the books a long time ago), I thought that the scene with Bran in the woods was similar to the one in the books, number-of-people wise.

The only one that seemed somewhat anti-climactic so far was the hunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
cc - I suppose they are trying to conserve money for the long run. Apparently they are choosing to use the wolves as little as possible.

Probably but they can describe the scale with dialoge rather than showing it with poor results.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:47:50 PM
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the tournament was fine and (while I have read the books a long time ago), I thought that the scene with Bran in the woods was similar to the one in the books, number-of-people wise.

The only one that seemed somewhat anti-climactic so far was the hunt.

In the book the hunt scene is a hunting party which gets split up as the main body is delayed and bran runs off with his fancy new saddle. The wolves intervene, but the bran as hostage scene is as it happened. I think using the wolves make the scene difficult to film. The point of the scene is to introduce Osha and plant the seeds of conflict between Robb and Theon as well as show the control the Stark children have over the violence of the wolves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 02:43:18 PM
Thanks BA.  :secret:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 24, 2011, 03:37:41 PM
Regarding the small scale thingie, my guess is that they just didn't have the money. Rome suffered from the same issue. MY hope is that, if the series works well, they'll increase the budget for the next seasons. They have battles to show, and if they're on a relatively shoestring budget the Battle of the Blackwater is going to suck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 24, 2011, 03:40:08 PM
I'm really behind on this.  I've only watched two episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 24, 2011, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2011, 01:47:27 PM
See, I can even read into the future now :P   
Tada!!  :D
[/quote]

I predict there will be hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico this summer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 24, 2011, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2011, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:47:50 PM
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the tournament was fine and (while I have read the books a long time ago), I thought that the scene with Bran in the woods was similar to the one in the books, number-of-people wise.

The only one that seemed somewhat anti-climactic so far was the hunt.

In the book the hunt scene is a hunting party which gets split up as the main body is delayed and bran runs off with his fancy new saddle. The wolves intervene, but the bran as hostage scene is as it happened. I think using the wolves make the scene difficult to film. The point of the scene is to introduce Osha and plant the seeds of conflict between Robb and Theon as well as show the control the Stark children have over the violence of the wolves.

Trouble is the wolves are meant to become pretty important.
Yet they seem to have vanished.... :s
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 24, 2011, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 24, 2011, 04:16:54 PM
I predict there will be hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico this summer.
The gift is not exclusive.  We are many :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 24, 2011, 05:03:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
The show is becoming boring.I might pick it up again out of curiousity.

Well, CC, lots of people think like you; (and not just in politics). Looks like the show's ratings are starting to dip.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/05/24/game-of-thrones-ratings-6/

'Game of Thrones' ratings dip
by James Hibberd
Categories: Game of Thrones, TV Ratings



Thanks for reminding me, Tweeps: Game of Thrones ratings are in. But they went down a tick for the first time, with Sunday night's premiere slipping a tad. The 9 p.m. airing delivered 2.4 million (compared to last week's 2.6 million). Most of the difference was picked up during the encore airing, with the night's total finishing at 3.2 million (compared to last week's 3.3 million).

Gotta say, I'm surprised, because of all the episodes I've seen, this was the one I was certain would post a gain given the story strength of last week's hour. But there was also plenty of sports competition and the Celebrity Apprentice finale on Sunday, so who knows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:05:11 PM
Just watched episode 7. Shit hits the fan.  :cool:

Also: lesbian sex used as exposition.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2011, 05:19:12 PM
I'm really happy with this casting.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.wg.uproxx.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2FGOT-2-6-3.gif&hash=8d1b9a28434931e90a5774db1ab53b4258163c3d)

Edit: fuck, this animated gif is starting to freak me out a bit...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2011, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
It would have been an easy thing to introduce concepts like the knight with the flaming sword in dialogue if they didnt have the budget to actually show it.  That kind of dialogue would have been a lot better than wasting time on Little Finger telling Sansa about the Hound - which was out of charcter and sequence.


Thoros was mentioned in the discussion between Jamie and Jory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2011, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2011, 01:47:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 24, 2011, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 01:41:08 PM
Well you hunt a boar on foot tbh...

He just wants that special George Lucas special edition with more Imperial Walkers CGI'd in the background.

Alright ok yes a sense of the scale is thrown off a bit but I can live with it.

A few hunting horns and a few riders crossing the background might have made it a bit more "large scale".
I'll also agree that the tourney scene looked a bit like they borrowed the lists from a Renaissance fair.
They chopped down trees and built the lists on set. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 24, 2011, 06:01:51 PM
They couldn't have made it somewhere with less trees? Outside some city walls maybe- there's some pretty good examples of those in the world.
And roped in a few more extras to be peasants?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 06:19:56 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2011, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 24, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
It would have been an easy thing to introduce concepts like the knight with the flaming sword in dialogue if they didnt have the budget to actually show it.  That kind of dialogue would have been a lot better than wasting time on Little Finger telling Sansa about the Hound - which was out of charcter and sequence.


Thoros was mentioned in the discussion between Jamie and Jory.

Which isnt exactly the same as some dialogue speaking excitedly about how the knight with flaming sword did in the melee competition.  As far as the series is concerned the so called tournament was a very low key affair with a couple jousts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 25, 2011, 02:39:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 02:43:18 PM
Thanks BA.  :secret:
:tamas:  Happy to help.  If anyone needs a back episode or a current one I can try to help out, just let me know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 25, 2011, 05:51:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:05:11 PM
Just watched episode 7. Shit hits the fan.  :cool:

Also: lesbian sex used as exposition.

Tywin seems... too emotional.

Also, the Dothraki market has more people than a tournament or a royal hunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 25, 2011, 06:02:32 AM
Considering America's economy I think it would send the wrong signals to show off a huge budget for simple entertainment. Frugality isn't a dirty word.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 25, 2011, 06:03:41 AM
GoT does have a huge budget though.
Where its going is a mystery. :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 25, 2011, 06:08:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 25, 2011, 06:03:41 AM
GoT does have a huge budget though.
Where its going is a mystery. :hmm:

Not *that* huge. Less than 5 million $ per episode, and that includes a humongous cast, set building, period dress and filming on location.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 25, 2011, 06:09:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 25, 2011, 06:03:41 AM
GoT does have a huge budget though.
Where its going is a mystery. :hmm:
$50-60 million for ten episodes.

Hopefully that will increase 50% for season 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 25, 2011, 11:29:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:05:11 PM


Also: lesbian sex used as exposition.


Indeed.  The camera lingered on the whores fingering themselves during the entire Little Fingers' monologue; the very definition of gratuitous.  Almost pornographic. *shudder*

And *we* didn't get a full exposure of lovely Lauras sucking on Renly's cock.  Fucking double standards.  <_<




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 25, 2011, 11:36:18 AM
Quote from: Grallon on May 25, 2011, 11:29:41 AM
Indeed.  The camera lingered on the whores fingering themselves during the entire Little Fingers' monologue; the very definition of gratuitous.  Almost pornographic. *shudder*

And *we* didn't get a full exposure of lovely Lauras sucking on Renly's cock.  Fucking double standards.  <_<

Meh.  I just ain't in the mood during a serious drama show.  It is just something I tolerate in HBO shows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 25, 2011, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 25, 2011, 11:29:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2011, 05:05:11 PM


Also: lesbian sex used as exposition.


Indeed.  The camera lingered on the whores fingering themselves during the entire Little Fingers' monologue; the very definition of gratuitous.  Almost pornographic. *shudder*

And *we* didn't get a full exposure of lovely Lauras sucking on Renly's cock.  Fucking double standards.  <_<




G.

Well it's not like they show the whores' clits either. And we did see the kraken. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: JonasSalk on May 25, 2011, 03:10:41 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 25, 2011, 06:08:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 25, 2011, 06:03:41 AM
GoT does have a huge budget though.
Where its going is a mystery. :hmm:

Not *that* huge. Less than 5 million $ per episode, and that includes a humongous cast, set building, period dress and filming on location.

Which location? Westeros?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 25, 2011, 03:18:05 PM
Ireland I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 25, 2011, 03:19:10 PM
Northern Ireland. Where they get a tonne of tax breaks and whatnot.
And Malta.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 25, 2011, 03:24:31 PM
This is a pic of a friend of mines little sister - I've known her since she was, I don't know...10?

Anyway, I saw this and thought that she looks almost exactly how I would imagine Cersei Lannister to look.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F250929_1802999032681_1171006017_31556507_8031395_n.jpg&hash=bc9b43d2fa3b35eb5db0f086bfd1e2d01c20e920)
Of course, Cersei wouldn't be wearing a two piece bathing suit, but anyway...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 25, 2011, 04:10:04 PM
Looks more Daniish
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 25, 2011, 04:35:36 PM
The guy does not look fat enough to be Robert, but he's getting there.

I thought Cersei didn't have a fat face though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 25, 2011, 08:53:52 PM
The 7th episode was better then the 6th, but you saw the ending coming from a mile away (what with littlefingers conversation with the whores)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 25, 2011, 09:53:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 25, 2011, 04:35:36 PM
I thought Cersei didn't have a fat face though.

Ok Siegey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 25, 2011, 10:11:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2011, 09:53:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 25, 2011, 04:35:36 PM
I thought Cersei didn't have a fat face though.

Ok Siegey.

It's Martinus.  He's as good a judge of women as he is a TV lawyer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on May 26, 2011, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2011, 01:47:27 PM

At  some point, someone here is gonna come and say "this is ridiculous, the  author never intended X to be portrayed like that, I thought he was  more like "Y" or something like "I hate ghosts killing people, they are  ridiculous even if they are not green".
See, I can even read into the future now :P   
Tada!!  :D


Yeah, that wasn't really a hard prediction given this audience.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 28, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
Just caught up with the last two episodes, fucking awesome. Loved Drogos speech! :punk:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2011, 12:21:21 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 28, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
Just caught up with the last two episodes, fucking awesome. Loved Drogos speech! :punk:

I thought that scene was somewhat contrived, maybe because all of the dozen of extras in the scene seemed to be making the same applause noise as a stadium full of nazis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 01:03:13 PM
I subscribed to HBO.
Watched the first 6 episodes.
Not impresed.
The rythm blows, the sword fight between Ned and Jaime looked faked as fuck, the wolves should be CGI, not some dogs passing for wolves. You can tell they are adults instead of big ass pups, because of the body proportions.

Great cast though, especially Thyron and Arya.
Sean Bean should have dyed his hair black.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 02:01:07 PM
where are the maps?
Can anybody link me?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:07:01 PM
http://maps.google.com/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:08:46 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 29, 2011, 02:11:23 PM
http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg (http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg)
also a few interesting ones:
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/ (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 02:11:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:07:01 PM
http://maps.google.com/

Not funny.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 02:14:59 PM
There are more than seven kingdoms in Westeros:
1- Winterfrell
2- Riverrun
3- The Eyrie
4- The Iron Islands
5- Casterly Rock
6- High Garden
7- Storm's End
8- Dorne
9- Dragonstone

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg167.imageshack.us%2Fimg167%2F5414%2Fwesteros1yj8.gif&hash=01b283d094a40abd05f8c69c308d4fd19a37938a)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:17:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:11:23 PM
http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg (http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg)
also a few interesting ones:
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/ (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/)

The worst part about finding some of those maps is that, apparently, the others have been lost due to the creators' deactivated DeviantArt account.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:18:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 29, 2011, 02:14:59 PM
There are more than seven kingdoms in Westeros:
1- Winterfrell
2- Riverrun
3- The Eyrie
4- The Iron Islands
5- Casterly Rock
6- High Garden
7- Storm's End
8- Dorne
9- Dragonstone

Riverrun and Dragonstone aren't kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
Yup. Riverrun was historically part of the same Kingdom as the Iron Islands, and Dragonstone is simply the place where the Valyrians landed. :nerd:

In other news, I'm running a SOIAF pen and paper rpg now. 10x :nerd: 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:17:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:11:23 PM
http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg (http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg)
also a few interesting ones:
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/ (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/)

The worst part about finding some of those maps is that, apparently, the others have been lost due to the creators' deactivated DeviantArt account.

Nix that; found a hosted copy :

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Gallery/Entry/2277/

:smarty:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 29, 2011, 02:28:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
In other news, I'm running a SOIAF pen and paper rpg now. 10x :nerd:
How is that system?  Been meaning to track down a copy of the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:28:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
In other news, I'm running a SOIAF pen and paper rpg now. 10x :nerd:
How is that system?  Been meaning to track down a copy of the books.

There are two systems - one is a d20 (Game of Thrones), which I dislike. The other is the one made by Green Ronin and it is pretty good ("roll and keep", if you are familiar with the principle) - also it has awesome House creation system. My players are House Colworth, located in the Dornish Marches, and sworn bannermen to House Tarly of Horn Hill (with Blackmonts to the South and Carons to the East). It's fun.  :menace:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 29, 2011, 02:34:43 PM
Nice.  I liked what Green Ronin did with Warhammer.  I'll definitely have to nab myself a copy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:37:05 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:17:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:11:23 PM
http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg (http://shaghaghi.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WesterosMap1.jpg)
also a few interesting ones:
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/ (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2010/10/art/art-wonderful-stylized-maps-of-grrms-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/)

The worst part about finding some of those maps is that, apparently, the others have been lost due to the creators' deactivated DeviantArt account.

Nix that; found a hosted copy :

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Gallery/Entry/2277/

:smarty:

Omg, it's awesome. I'm so going to use it in my game - all houses' locations!  :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:38:06 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:34:43 PM
Nice.  I liked what Green Ronin did with Warhammer.  I'll definitely have to nab myself a copy.

I can send you a link (ahem).

Btw, did Green Ronin make a new Warhammer? I'm using the one from the Black Industries. Is there something new.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 29, 2011, 02:40:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:38:06 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:34:43 PM
Nice.  I liked what Green Ronin did with Warhammer.  I'll definitely have to nab myself a copy.

I can send you a link (ahem).

Btw, did Green Ronin make a new Warhammer? I'm using the one from the Black Industries. Is there something new.
They were a bridge gap between the old system and Black Industries I believe, with Black Industries using a lot of their changes.  A link would be greatly appreciated. :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 03:27:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:37:05 PM
Omg, it's awesome. I'm so going to use it in my game - all houses' locations!  :showoff:

It even has some of the destroyed houses marked on the map with their coat of arms upside-down.

I'm poking through the small scenes that have been painted throughout the map now.  Gregor's on there, for instance, as are king Aerys and others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 29, 2011, 04:04:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 29, 2011, 02:28:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
In other news, I'm running a SOIAF pen and paper rpg now. 10x :nerd:
How is that system?  Been meaning to track down a copy of the books.

There are two systems - one is a d20 (Game of Thrones), which I dislike. The other is the one made by Green Ronin and it is pretty good ("roll and keep", if you are familiar with the principle) - also it has awesome House creation system. My players are House Colworth, located in the Dornish Marches, and sworn bannermen to House Tarly of Horn Hill (with Blackmonts to the South and Carons to the East). It's fun.  :menace:

What didn't you like about the d20 system? I have pretty good memories of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 29, 2011, 05:22:40 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 02:07:01 PM
http://maps.google.com/

I found Västerås (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4ster%C3%A5s) without any problem. I don't understand what Siegy's problem is...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 05:52:04 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 05:55:04 PM
Larch, I generally don't like systems that have "levels". I prefer more organic growth, where players can just put xp into new abilities and the like.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 29, 2011, 06:07:49 PM
 :lmfao:

http://store.hbo.com/game-of-thrones-i-made-the-eight-t-shirt/detail.php?p=300711&v=hbo_shows_game-of-thrones
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 07:22:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2011, 08:46:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Holy crap! Semi-canonical world map!

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/05/12/game-of-thrones/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2mca3jhrjcsa8.cloudfront.net%2Ftv%2F2011%2Fgame_of_thrones%2Finterview%2Fgot_map.jpg&hash=c99247b6c83f0494f84a70be0e01a4373a56b347)


:blink:
Wow the east is damn close to them. How come no one figured to go sailing over there? Surely the iron men would have?
And the big southern Shivering Sea is surprising.


Well, the equator seems to be below Dorne, so the world of in Westeros is, must be a big world.
Me thinks the continent West of Westeros is not the same continent in the East.
If the seassons last 10 times as long as in Earth, maybe the world of Westeros is 10 times bigger than Earth?

And what about the continent North of the Eastern continent?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 07:35:19 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faidanmoher.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2FWorld_Map_of_Ice_and_Fire_by_Other_in_Law.jpeg&hash=f4c0532b77dcc67bc80e1eb6c06f30831c6ed66a)

This map is ridicuolus.
It looks like Eurasia and Africa.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2011, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
Yup. Riverrun was historically part of the same Kingdom as the Iron Islands, and Dragonstone is simply the place where the Valyrians landed. :nerd:

How can Riverrun be part of the Iron Islands?
No doubt the Riverlands are far richer and more populated than the islands.
I would think it impossible to hold the Riverlands from Pyke.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2011, 11:09:35 PM
Nice ending, I liked.

Ned's a bit thick-headed isn't he?  Surely a normal person would have asked himself what angle the pimpmeister as playing?

And being one of Ned's personal retainers gives you about the same life expectancy as a red shirted security officer on Star Trek.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 11:16:18 PM
Ned's not exactly thick, I'd say, so much as completely lacking in guile.  He's a very straightforward person who just doesn't seem to understand that other people aren't going to be as forthright as himself in all their actions.  In Ned's world, someone that says they'll support you will support you...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 11:21:25 PM
I thought the scene with Littlefinger, his whore and Theon's whore dragged a bit.  The exposition was decent and probably necessary, considering it reveals his motive's, but it seemed a little over the top.

The rest of the episode was solid, though, and the final scene was excellently handled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2011, 12:37:28 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2011, 11:16:18 PM
Ned's not exactly thick, I'd say, so much as completely lacking in guile.  He's a very straightforward person who just doesn't seem to understand that other people aren't going to be as forthright as himself in all their actions.  In Ned's world, someone that says they'll support you will support you...

I don't think that's even that with Ned. I think he is quite capable of understanding, on a conceptual level, that some people may act dishonorably. For him, however, honor is such an important thing, that he can't act differently - it is no longer a choice whether to act with honor or not - in that he is quite a tragic character.

The way he handled Cersei's betrayal, the Lannister/Clegane incident and supported Stannis over Renly - it's not because he does not understand other people can be dishonorable, but these were the only ways he could act.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 30, 2011, 01:17:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2011, 11:09:35 PM
Nice ending, I liked.

Ned's a bit thick-headed isn't he?  Surely a normal person would have asked himself what angle the pimpmeister as playing?

And being one of Ned's personal retainers gives you about the same life expectancy as a red shirted security officer on Star Trek.
He looked pretty jumpy, he expects to be betrayed/attacked. He just would rather be right and dead then wrong and alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2011, 01:36:34 AM
I don't know if this has been used before, but I love the word reviewers use to describe the now-common feature of HBO's "Game of Thrones": "sexposition".

Tyrion with whores, Viseris with Doreah, Theon with a whore, Renly with Loras, Littlefinger with whores - it seems the show writers share GRRM's love for gratuitous sex scenes. But what about the other pillar of the books: lemoncakes?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 30, 2011, 02:18:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 05:55:04 PM
Larch, I generally don't like systems that have "levels". I prefer more organic growth, where players can just put xp into new abilities and the like.

Ok, I get what you mean. For better or worse, leveling is a staple of RPGs, something that most players get almost intuitively, so it's not surprising that it was used. How does the "roll and keep" system work? You can send me a link if you want.  :ph34r:

FWIW, I personally like a lot the d20 system as applied to the ASOIAF RPG by the previous makers (who went belly up and only published the basic manual). It managed to make it feel fantasy-y, but also gritty and dangerous. Every single combat was a death trap about to happen, you really had to measure your forces before comitting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2011, 03:19:49 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 30, 2011, 02:18:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 29, 2011, 05:55:04 PM
Larch, I generally don't like systems that have "levels". I prefer more organic growth, where players can just put xp into new abilities and the like.

Ok, I get what you mean. For better or worse, leveling is a staple of RPGs, something that most players get almost intuitively, so it's not surprising that it was used. How does the "roll and keep" system work? You can send me a link if you want.  :ph34r:

FWIW, I personally like a lot the d20 system as applied to the ASOIAF RPG by the previous makers (who went belly up and only published the basic manual). It managed to make it feel fantasy-y, but also gritty and dangerous. Every single combat was a death trap about to happen, you really had to measure your forces before comitting.

I can see what you mean about leveling being the staple, but at least as far as I am concerned, my entire roleplaying history did not feature any game with a strong leveling component.

I started out with Warhammer FRPG, then moved to Chaosium Games (Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon), Ars Magica, White Wolf, GURPS, Amber Diceless and few others along the way. I never really played D&D until very late, when I joined an internet based campaign ran by Demetrios from EUOT. So for me, leveling outside of a computer game is not really that prevalent.

"Roll and keep" works by letting the player roll a number of dice, but give him an edge not by adding more dice that are all added up to the result, but allowing him to keep the top dice.

For example, in SOIAF, you have Abilities (e.g. Warfare, Athletics) and Specialties (e.g. Axes, Swords, Climbing). In your usual game you would normally add an ability to a skill/specialty and roll that number of dice and keep the result. In SOIAF, you roll a number of dice that is equal to the total of the Ability and the Specialty (if any) but keep only the number of dice equal to the Ability.

This way, a player with a higher specialty gets an edge, but not an enormous advantage and can be beaten by an unspecialized player with enough luck.

Btw, SOIAF does not feature separate Abilities and Skills (so Endurance is on equal footing with say, Fighting or Warfare - you do not add Abilities and Skills together, unlike say White Wolf).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 30, 2011, 09:19:19 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2011, 11:09:35 PM
Nice ending, I liked.

Ned's a bit thick-headed isn't he?  Surely a normal person would have asked himself what angle the pimpmeister as playing?

And being one of Ned's personal retainers gives you about the same life expectancy as a red shirted security officer on Star Trek.

Thick headed but he was able to figure out that Robert's children were actually the product of Jaime and his sister pretty quickly, just because they were blonde.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
What were Ned's choices?
1- Follow littleflinger counsel and recognize Jeofrey, marry Sansa to him and make peace with the Lannisters.
2- Support Renly and cut the Queen's head before the Lannisters could react.
3- Leave everything and ride for the North and the walls of Winterfell.
4- Proclaim Stannis as the rightfull heir and die, since nobody suppported Stannis at court.

Do you think making peace with the Lannisters would work? I can see Tywin using this peace to rally all the houses from the South and march North and besiege Winterfell. Renly had only a few dudes at the capital. He would have had to take the Queen by surprise, which is not Ned's style. The Lannisters would always outbid any propousal for the loyalty of the Gold guard.

I think his safest bet was to ride for the North without chosing sides, and let the southrons fight it out between themselves. Ned could have easily rally The Eyrie and The Riverlands to his cause while the Lannister were dealing with Renly and Stannis.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 30, 2011, 11:15:33 AM
Ned's an idiot. He should have recognize that the Whore King actually has agenda with all is dealings.

But Ned's not use to this. That's not how things are in the North.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 30, 2011, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
I think his safest bet was to ride for the North without chosing sides, and let the southrons fight it out between themselves. Ned could have easily rally The Eyrie and The Riverlands to his cause while the Lannister were dealing with Renly and Stannis.

Which is pretty much what Robb did afterwards. That worked well. :P Granted, Ned's wouldn't have let his dick lose the war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 30, 2011, 11:31:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 30, 2011, 11:15:33 AM
Ned's an idiot. He should have recognize that the Whore King actually has agenda with all is dealings.

But Ned's not use to this. That's not how things are in the North.

In the North the pack sticks together, because, Winter is Coming, and when winter comes the lone wolf dies. I don't think Ned really understands anybody who would risk the safety of the pack (in this case Westeros) for personal gain. To him even enemies (like Arthur Dayne) are packmates. That is why he tries to save Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella from Roberts wrath.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 30, 2011, 11:37:27 AM
That's good explanation to everything that seems to have happened so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2011, 12:45:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 30, 2011, 11:31:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 30, 2011, 11:15:33 AM
Ned's an idiot. He should have recognize that the Whore King actually has agenda with all is dealings.

But Ned's not use to this. That's not how things are in the North.

In the North the pack sticks together, because, Winter is Coming, and when winter comes the lone wolf dies. I don't think Ned really understands anybody who would risk the safety of the pack (in this case Westeros) for personal gain. To him even enemies (like Arthur Dayne) are packmates. That is why he tries to save Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella from Roberts wrath.

However, in the North you have those dudes from the Dreadfort, the Boltons, I believe.
They don't appear to think like Ned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2011, 12:53:04 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 30, 2011, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
I think his safest bet was to ride for the North without chosing sides, and let the southrons fight it out between themselves. Ned could have easily rally The Eyrie and The Riverlands to his cause while the Lannister were dealing with Renly and Stannis.

Which is pretty much what Robb did afterwards. That worked well. :P Granted, Ned's wouldn't have let his dick lose the war.


I think Ned would have had a lot more pull rallying the North and their allies.
How many troops did the Eyrie contibuted to Robb's army?
Would the Freys have dared to do to Ned what they did to Robb?
Probably yes. Ned was as much a retard as Robb.
I think Ned would have had more support outside the North, though.
And Ned would have sided with Stannis, since he didn't have any desire to become King In The North.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 30, 2011, 02:49:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 12:53:04 PM

I think Ned would have had a lot more pull rallying the North and their allies.
How many troops did the Eyrie contibuted to Robb's army?

1 - The Blackfish. Nuff said.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2011, 04:32:09 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 12:53:04 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 30, 2011, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
I think his safest bet was to ride for the North without chosing sides, and let the southrons fight it out between themselves. Ned could have easily rally The Eyrie and The Riverlands to his cause while the Lannister were dealing with Renly and Stannis.

Which is pretty much what Robb did afterwards. That worked well. :P Granted, Ned's wouldn't have let his dick lose the war.


I think Ned would have had a lot more pull rallying the North and their allies.
How many troops did the Eyrie contibuted to Robb's army?
Would the Freys have dared to do to Ned what they did to Robb?
Probably yes. Ned was as much a retard as Robb.
I think Ned would have had more support outside the North, though.
And Ned would have sided with Stannis, since he didn't have any desire to become King In The North.

The Freys wouldn't have a reason to do what they did to Robb since Ned wouldn't have offended them the way Robb did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 30, 2011, 04:39:37 PM
Although if part of the alliance terms were for Robb to marry a Frey as they were in the actual timeline, he still might have ruined the Alliance by having the exact same thing occur.  Just because Ned is King in the North/Lord doesn't mean Robb wouldn't be able to f things up still.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2011, 04:45:48 PM
Have you ever wondered how good would you do in Westeros?

I think I wouldn't have last long.
I tend to embrace a cause and then see it through to the end.
So for me it all comes to choosing the right side from the very begining, since I will not change sides no matter what.
Of course, by the right side I mean the winning side.
We all know rightness is in the eyes of the beholder.

But then, in real life I did not choose a side.
All those decissions were made for me before I was born.

So I guess in Westeros it would as well come down to in which I house I was born and to whom I was sworn to serve.

Here I despise the Lannisters, but had I been born in a House serving the Lannisters, first I would not know about all the schemmings and adultery of Cersei, and second If I did I would have assumed it was Stannis' propaganda machine. So I can see myself riding under the golden lion on a crimsom field banner, as easily as under any other banner.

Was Tywin Lannister a good lord? Well, he rewarded his loyal supporters and punished his enemies. Not too diferent from the Starks from the point of view of the lower houses.

In the end, can anybody name a historical person that was as suppossedly righteous as Ned Stark in medieval times?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2011, 04:58:13 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 30, 2011, 04:39:37 PM
Although if part of the alliance terms were for Robb to marry a Frey as they were in the actual timeline, he still might have ruined the Alliance by having the exact same thing occur.  Just because Ned is King in the North/Lord doesn't mean Robb wouldn't be able to f things up still.

Yeah. I think Ned and Robb were living up to the wrong standard.
As a knight or men-at-arms, loyalty and righteouness are indeed the highest virtues, but as the leader of a region you are making desicions that affect the entire realm. I can clearly see that I have two diferent sets of answers for the same questions depending of how high in the feudal heriarchy I am. For a knight or man-at-arms the consequences of the answers to the moral questions are limited to relatively few people.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2011, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 04:45:48 PM
In the end, can anybody name a historical person that was as suppossedly righteous as Ned Stark in medieval times?

Louis IX was the model for the pious, chivalrous leader who made bad decisions (both crusades).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 31, 2011, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2011, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 04:45:48 PM
In the end, can anybody name a historical person that was as suppossedly righteous as Ned Stark in medieval times?

Louis IX was the model for the pious, chivalrous leader who made bad decisions (both crusades).

OK, besides St Louis.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2011, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 31, 2011, 06:29:46 PM
OK, besides St Louis.
Reg: But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 31, 2011, 08:33:58 PM
According to this map, Westeros is way bigger than England and France together.
It goes all the way from Spain to Scandinavia!

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg193.imageshack.us%2Fimg193%2F1340%2Fwesteroseurocompar.jpg&hash=ab2f33923f1f01fc56e1cacbe623cd894885fb0a)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 10:34:54 PM
I always thought the scale was off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2011, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 04:45:48 PM
In the end, can anybody name a historical person that was as suppossedly righteous as Ned Stark in medieval times?

Louis IX was the model for the pious, chivalrous leader who made bad decisions (both crusades).

King Steve of England was noted for being a chivalrous leader (though not a good King).  King Jean II was captured by the English, released in exchange for his son and when his son ran off he voluntarily returned to captivity.  His son was much smarter and didn't do things like that and is remembered as one of the great kings of France (not the same son that ran off though).   Godfrey of Bouillon was often depicted as the model of a Christian Knight.  I don't know if he actually lived up to that, but he was considered one of the nine worthies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2011, 10:49:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 10:34:54 PM
I always thought the scale was off.
That's the fanmade small option. GRRM says it's as big as South America.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 31, 2011, 10:53:01 PM
Still looks like an inverted outline of Britain regardless of actual size.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 11:37:55 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2011, 10:49:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 10:34:54 PM
I always thought the scale was off.
That's the fanmade small option. GRRM says it's as big as South America.

Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird.  Also the times seem odd.  The histories go on for thousands of years, often with one ruling family at the helm.  However, real medieval families tended to go extinct fairly often and were often replaced.  In the novels House Stark is replaced by House Bolton with out much regard to tradition (these guys had been rulers of the North for millennia).  The longest ruling House in real life that I can think of Is the Japanese Imperial Family and they are youthful compared to the Starks and Lannisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2011, 11:48:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 11:37:55 PM
Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird.  Also the times seem odd.  The histories go on for thousands of years, often with one ruling family at the helm.  However, real medieval families tended to go extinct fairly often and were often replaced.  In the novels House Stark is replaced by House Bolton with out much regard to tradition (these guys had been rulers of the North for millennia).  The longest ruling House in real life that I can think of Is the Japanese Imperial Family and they are youthful compared to the Starks and Lannisters.

Especially with the Starks constantly giving their sons to the Night's Watch.

But this is a fantasy story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 31, 2011, 11:49:18 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2011, 10:49:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 10:34:54 PM
I always thought the scale was off.
That's the fanmade small option. GRRM says it's as big as South America.

I do have a hard time imagining the Vale of Arryn being as big as Poland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 01, 2011, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2011, 11:37:55 PM
Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird.  Also the times seem odd.  The histories go on for thousands of years, often with one ruling family at the helm.  However, real medieval families tended to go extinct fairly often and were often replaced.  In the novels House Stark is replaced by House Bolton with out much regard to tradition (these guys had been rulers of the North for millennia).  The longest ruling House in real life that I can think of Is the Japanese Imperial Family and they are youthful compared to the Starks and Lannisters.
House Bolton was at odds with House Stark for a long time over control of the North, so they do have some claim to once being near the top/top dog.  It isn't as crazy as say... House Mormont taking charge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
Yeah, I always thought it rather funny that in fantasy worlds, history seem to be taking comparable real world events and multiply their duration by ten.

So a dynasty rules not for 300, but 3000 years, a plague lasts not 5 but 50 years, and so on.

That being said, Westeros is not that bad. Aegon's conquest only happened less than 300 years ago, so the timeline here is not so insane. I think only Starks (and possibly Greyjoys) have such long claims to power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 03:00:34 AM
Also, you have to remember that the way Houses work in Westeros, it appears that they, at least to a degree, allow for inheritance through female lines while maintaining the identity of the House.

For example, Queen Elizabeth is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror, so in Westeros terms she would be technically of the same House as he.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 01, 2011, 03:09:06 AM
Truth.  The one Brandon Stark in the distant past had only a daughter and her sons maintained the line and family name.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 03:09:22 AM
To summarize, the great Houses ruling their respective areas:

The North - Starks - over 7,000 years (sic!)
Dorne - Martells - 700 years
Dragonstone/King's Landing - Targaeryns - since Aegon's Conquest
Storm's End - Baratheons - since Aegon's Conquest
The Reach - Tyrells - since Aegon's Conquest
Riverlands - Tullys - 1000 years (but only less than 300 years as lords paramount)
The Pyke - Greyjoys - since Aegon's Conquest
The Aerie - Arryns - since Andal Invastion, 6000 years ago
The Westerlands - Lannisters - since Andal Invasion, 6000 years ago
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2011, 03:22:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
Yeah, I always thought it rather funny that in fantasy worlds, history seem to be taking comparable real world events and multiply their duration by ten.

So a dynasty rules not for 300, but 3000 years, a plague lasts not 5 but 50 years, and so on.

That being said, Westeros is not that bad. Aegon's conquest only happened less than 300 years ago, so the timeline here is not so insane. I think only Starks (and possibly Greyjoys) have such long claims to power.
How much documentation do they have for those dates? It probably didn't happen has far back as that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 03:50:41 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2011, 03:22:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
Yeah, I always thought it rather funny that in fantasy worlds, history seem to be taking comparable real world events and multiply their duration by ten.

So a dynasty rules not for 300, but 3000 years, a plague lasts not 5 but 50 years, and so on.

That being said, Westeros is not that bad. Aegon's conquest only happened less than 300 years ago, so the timeline here is not so insane. I think only Starks (and possibly Greyjoys) have such long claims to power.
How much documentation do they have for those dates? It probably didn't happen has far back as that.

The Citadel of Oldtown predates the Andal Invasion, and I assume the written history is at least as old as the Citadel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on June 01, 2011, 07:15:18 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 01, 2011, 03:22:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
Yeah, I always thought it rather funny that in fantasy worlds, history seem to be taking comparable real world events and multiply their duration by ten.

So a dynasty rules not for 300, but 3000 years, a plague lasts not 5 but 50 years, and so on.

That being said, Westeros is not that bad. Aegon's conquest only happened less than 300 years ago, so the timeline here is not so insane. I think only Starks (and possibly Greyjoys) have such long claims to power.
How much documentation do they have for those dates? It probably didn't happen has far back as that.

They joke about this in the most recent book, IIRC, when the fat kid says that the dates in the Watch archives don't mesh the chronology, but he only finds a few centuries added. We're still talking about a society which is more stagnant than anything comparable in human history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 01, 2011, 08:06:43 AM
R'hllor is clearly Allah. :osama:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2011, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 01, 2011, 08:06:43 AM
R'hllor is clearly Allah. :osama:

Ahura-Mazda.  :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2011, 10:23:25 AM
Sauron is Hitler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 10:52:05 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.

Yeah I did not get that either.  I figured great lords would think that sort of thing was beneath their dignity.  Especially one as obsessed with dignity as Tywin Lannister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 10:52:05 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.

Yeah I did not get that either.  I figured great lords would think that sort of thing was beneath their dignity.  Especially one as obsessed with dignity as Tywin Lannister.

No kidding. The dude is completely uptight and rigid. Would never spend his time on such a pedestrian activity. Hell, he is probably the kind of Lord who doesn't even hunt himself anymore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2011, 10:55:40 AM
Maybe his passion for skinning will be discussed at length in the new book?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 01, 2011, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.

The (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgameofthrones.net%2Fimages%2FHouse_Lannister%2FHouse_Lannister_Standard.gif&hash=4148f7532d847a1fbad2817226cb3cd5780e9fa4) skinning the (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110228104403%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ffc%2FHouse_Baratheon.jpg&hash=bfbc4ab98eafed904ddd54110e111418bdb72793)


I can't imagine why anybody might want to make a clear excruciating point about that? Unpossible!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 11:15:38 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.

You mustn't forget that this is TV. Visuals matter far more than in a book.

Skinning an animal sets the tone for the modern viewer who isn't used to getting so personal with the meat. Calmly discussing the proper way to destroy your enemies while carving an animal's skin off creates a certain aire around the character which I think works very well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 11:15:38 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.

You mustn't forget that this is TV. Visuals matter far more than in a book.

Skinning an animal sets the tone for the modern viewer who isn't used to getting so personal with the meat. Calmly discussing the proper way to destroy your enemies while carving an animal's skin off creates a certain aire around the character which I think works very well.

I thought it was just stupid. Like it was trying to set up Tywin as some mafia butcher, like the dude in Gangs of New York.

I thought it made him look rather pedestrian.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 01, 2011, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
I thought Tywin Lannister skinning a dear in gruesome detail was really, really lame.

I don't think Tywin spends much of his time on such things.

The (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgameofthrones.net%2Fimages%2FHouse_Lannister%2FHouse_Lannister_Standard.gif&hash=4148f7532d847a1fbad2817226cb3cd5780e9fa4) skinning the (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110228104403%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ffc%2FHouse_Baratheon.jpg&hash=bfbc4ab98eafed904ddd54110e111418bdb72793)


I can't imagine why anybody might want to make a clear excruciating point about that? Unpossible!

But it wasn't a lion skinning a dear, it was a Lannister skinning a dear. Half a metaphor doesn't make much sense, or have any real impact.

The effect it had on me was to make me think "Gee, I guess Tywin Lannister cannot afford a decent butcher, and has to do it himself..."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:17:45 PM
He conformed to my image of Tywin. A hands on kind of guy, who isn't afraid to get a little blood on him.

It elegantly establishes what kind of guy he is without spending too much time on it, since I wager a majority of the viewers are sufficiently removed from the process of slaughtering an animal to be a bit grossed out by it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 12:20:44 PM
But Tywin isn't a hands on kind of guy. He is a super practical, use the right tool for the right job kind of guy. He isn't out riding around with Gregor Clegane, for example - he has hounds to do a hounds job. His job is to lead, because that is what he is good at.

Butchering animals? He would not do it - not because he is above it personally so much as simply because

1. It is not befitting his station, and
2. He has more important things to be doing.

He would no more spend a few hours butchering a deer than he would spend a few hours banging the dents out of his armor, or shoeing his horse, or mucking out the stables.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 01, 2011, 12:48:15 PM
Perhaps Tywin enjoys the act of preparing the deer? Especially if it's one he killed himself. Even the most pragmatic lords will have their own idiosyncracies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:01:59 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 01, 2011, 12:48:15 PM
Perhaps Tywin enjoys the act of preparing the deer? Especially if it's one he killed himself. Even the most pragmatic lords will have their own idiosyncracies.

No doubt that is entirely possible, but "I like to prepare the meat I kill myself" is a personal idiosyncrasy  and while it is not an implausible one in a Lord, I just don't think it fits in with the personality of Tywin Lannister.

Probably works perfectly fine for someone who has not read the books, since there is nothing that says the personality of Tywin the TV show has to map that closely with Tywin the book. Just struck me as rather contrived.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?

Sure, that must have been why Jaime was in full plate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?

Sure, that must have been why Jaime was in full plate.

Right. How many scenes have we seen him without plate?

But if that's the tone you're going for, let's call this discussion over, you fucking cunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 01, 2011, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?

Sure, that must have been why Jaime was in full plate.

what if: he arrived from King's Landing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?

Sure, that must have been why Jaime was in full plate.

Right. How many scenes have we seen him without plate?



Pretty much all of them, because I don't think he ever takes it off without some good reason - like going hunting. Or fucking his sister.

QuoteBut if that's the tone you're going for, let's call this discussion over, you fucking cunt.

Oh yes, this is a much more constructive tone, I am sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 01, 2011, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?

Sure, that must have been why Jaime was in full plate.

what if: he arrived from King's Landing?

That is kind of the impression I got - he was in full plate when he got their, and went and met with his father, who was...busy butchering deer, after he finished up cleaning out the pig sty and before it was time for him to go milk the cows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 01:46:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
I simply assumed they were out on a hunt. Weren't they in a tent in that scene, rather than a building?

Sure, that must have been why Jaime was in full plate.

Right. How many scenes have we seen him without plate?



Pretty much all of them, because I don't think he ever takes it off without some good reason - like going hunting. Or fucking his sister.

QuoteBut if that's the tone you're going for, let's call this discussion over, you fucking cunt.

Oh yes, this is a much more constructive tone, I am sure.

If you'd wanted to, you could've said something to the tone of "No, I don't think so. He was wearing full plate."

But no, you wanted to act like a cunt, and so I'm going to call you a cunt.

Cunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:50:41 PM
Right, in your quest to elevate the tone, calling another poster a cunt when you realize you are wrong is surely the way to go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 01, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
Jamie was wearing red plate to emphasize that he was now a lannister soldier rather than a member of the kingsguard.
His father was butchering a stag to emphasize that Tywin was taking part in the butchering of Robert Baratheon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 01, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Hunting is a nobleman's sport, so it's not in the same league as pig raising or dairying. However there's merit to the claim that it doesn't fit Tywin's personality.

They were in a camp full of red tents, so I assumed it was a military encampment, although a rather crowded one IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 02:00:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:50:41 PM
Right, in your quest to elevate the tone, calling another poster a cunt when you realize you are wrong is surely the way to go.

You may very well be correct. That's not why I called you a cunt.

I called you a cunt because you were being a cunt.

Get it, Cunt?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 01, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
Slargos, raising the level of debate as always.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 02:20:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 01, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
Slargos, raising the level of debate as always.

See, it's pretty typical.

We were having a perfectly good conversation about a particular scene, when Berkut instead of responding in a civil manner decided to act his own typical catty self. Instead of accepting this, I decided to respond in a similar manner, but because it is acceptable for Berkut to behave like an asshole while it is not acceptable for me, you step on my transgression but leave his flapping in the wind.

You're a fucking cunt aswell. But this is not news.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2011, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:50:41 PM
Right, in your quest to elevate the tone, calling another poster a cunt when you realize you are wrong is surely the way to go.
You do realize that Slargbilly thinks irony is the act of getting rid of wrinkles in clothes, don't you?  I mean, the rest of us are amused by this exchange, but if you are trying to reach him, irony (or cleverness of any sort) is a waste of time.  He's otnay ootay ightbray, you know?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 01, 2011, 02:32:35 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 01, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
His father was butchering a stag to emphasize that Tywin was taking part in the butchering of Robert Baratheon.
Did they make enough of the stag being the Baratheon symbol for the viewer to get this analogy, or was this something the writers did as more of an inside joke?  If the viewer was supposed to get the symbolism, the surely it ia allowable in the show as a visual shortcut, no matter how unlike the book character it is.  As an inside joke, maybe it is less defensible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 01, 2011, 02:34:02 PM
Am I a cunt?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 02:36:08 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2011, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 01, 2011, 01:50:41 PM
Right, in your quest to elevate the tone, calling another poster a cunt when you realize you are wrong is surely the way to go.
You do realize that Slargbilly thinks irony is the act of getting rid of wrinkles in clothes, don't you?  I mean, the rest of us are amused by this exchange, but if you are trying to reach him, irony (or cleverness of any sort) is a waste of time.  He's otnay ootay ightbray, you know?

:lol:

You're a cunt aswell.  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 01, 2011, 02:38:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2011, 02:34:02 PM
Am I a cunt?

Seems not :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 01, 2011, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 01, 2011, 02:32:35 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 01, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
His father was butchering a stag to emphasize that Tywin was taking part in the butchering of Robert Baratheon.
Did they make enough of the stag being the Baratheon symbol for the viewer to get this analogy, or was this something the writers did as more of an inside joke?  If the viewer was supposed to get the symbolism, the surely it ia allowable in the show as a visual shortcut, no matter how unlike the book character it is.  As an inside joke, maybe it is less defensible.
They've made a bit of mention about it.  Also, there was the early scene with the Direwolf cubs and the dead stag.  I'm pretty sure that Catelyn mentions something about the symbolism then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 03:38:42 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 01, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
Jamie was wearing red plate to emphasize that he was now a lannister soldier rather than a member of the kingsguard.
His father was butchering a stag to emphasize that Tywin was taking part in the butchering of Robert Baratheon.

Symbolism aside, I disagree it does not fit Tywin's personality. His is a rare breed - unlike his children, he is of the old ways. But also he is ruthless, unlike the Starks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 12:17:45 PM
He conformed to my image of Tywin. A hands on kind of guy, who isn't afraid to get a little blood on him.

It elegantly establishes what kind of guy he is without spending too much time on it, since I wager a majority of the viewers are sufficiently removed from the process of slaughtering an animal to be a bit grossed out by it.

I agree with Slargos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on June 01, 2011, 04:10:30 PM
Okay, these made me laugh:http://winteriscomingbitch.tumblr.com/tagged/stupid+ned
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 01, 2011, 04:50:53 PM
Just for Mary

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F27.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_llufyoeQZO1qjtzzeo1_500.gif&hash=c64d8293dbd34ef411a4aa4936584fcec6f181d0)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 01, 2011, 05:16:14 PM
Saw Monday's episode.
Well....wtf was with the Littlefinger lesbian scene? Couldn't they have thought of a quicker and easier way to mention the duel with Brandon and all that? I'm damn glad my mam decided not to watch it with me!
And Littlefinger saving himself for Cat?...that one is new to me. Thought it was canon he had knocked Lysa up. And.,..damn. Owning half the brothels in a big city and not partaking a little?

Tywin didn't seem very Tywinny to me. Too....animated. And common. They never actually said who he was either and just jumed into that scene in such a way I wondered if I'd missed an episode.

Sad they had Ghost getting the hand (where the hell have the wolves been!) but are saving the other attack.

Interesting pacing decision with Ned being captured now....so the next episode I guess is going to string out his captivity? As surely a logical shock end point or cliff hanger to an episode would be the execution. Hope they have flashbacks...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 01, 2011, 05:23:09 PM
re: The Tywin killing a stag bit. The symbolism was a bit daft and it was lost. My dad said "If he is the boss why is he doing servants work?".
Could work as an inside joke I guess.
All it really shows is that Tywin is a guy who enjoys a bit of butchering. Which I guess fits into the Lannisters as the Jews of Westeros thing, too cheap to even shell out for a butcher. hmm....adding in Tywin's commoness are the Lannisters: Yorkshire?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 01, 2011, 05:30:56 PM
Uhh, how can there be a "Littlefinger lesbian scene"? They didn't go all Starbuck on him did they?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 01, 2011, 05:32:33 PM
In the scene was Littlefinger and some girls doing lesbian stuff, thus the Littlefinger lesbian scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 01, 2011, 05:35:31 PM
If there's a dude on the screen it's not a lesbian scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 01, 2011, 05:38:41 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftoughbeingastark.tumblr.com%2Fphoto%2F1280%2F5812465187%2F1%2Ftumblr_llq111jEj51qije40&hash=500f42ccb53840fee307d747302a49a447f41467)

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 01, 2011, 05:45:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 01, 2011, 05:16:14 PM
And Littlefinger saving himself for Cat?...that one is new to me. Thought it was canon he had knocked Lysa up.

Yes, but IIRC he was delirious from his wound or something and thought it was Cat. And when Lysa told him it was her, he tossed her out the window.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 01, 2011, 06:36:06 PM
Can't remember the throwing out of the window bit, thought she had a conventional abortion.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 01, 2011, 05:35:31 PM
If there's a dude on the screen it's not a lesbian scene.
He's not taking part in the sex though, that was solidly girl on girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 01:25:15 AM
Is anyone else annoyed at how clueless Tyr is? Just wondering if it's just me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 01:31:52 AM
So, the Sunday's episode is gonna be the one written by GRRM. Will we have more rape and lemon cakes?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 02, 2011, 01:42:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 01:25:15 AM
Is anyone else annoyed at how clueless Tyr is? Just wondering if it's just me.

That's like getting annoyed at Tim being excitable or Grumbler being argumentative. Or you being shrill.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 02, 2011, 02:13:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 01:31:52 AM
So, the Sunday's episode is gonna be the one written by GRRM. Will we have more rape and lemon cakes?
The Hound was definitely eying Sansa in the preview. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 02, 2011, 06:51:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 01:25:15 AM
Is anyone else annoyed at how clueless Tyr is? Just wondering if it's just me.
If you disagree with something say it. Don't just throw around insults.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 04:42:26 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 02, 2011, 06:51:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 01:25:15 AM
Is anyone else annoyed at how clueless Tyr is? Just wondering if it's just me.
If you disagree with something say it. Don't just throw around insults.

It's not that I disagree. It's just that your comment about Lysa having an abortion in response to someone else's post about Littlefinger pushing her out of the window made me go "Oh dear".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on June 02, 2011, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 01, 2011, 05:23:09 PM
All it really shows is that Tywin is a guy who enjoys a bit of butchering. Which I guess fits into the Lannisters as the Jews of Westeros thing, too cheap to even shell out for a butcher. hmm....adding in Tywin's commoness are the Lannisters: Yorkshire?
:huh:
Lannisters are pretty much the opposite of "cheap"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 02, 2011, 04:59:55 PM
QuoteIt's not that I disagree. It's just that your comment about Lysa having an abortion in response to someone else's post about Littlefinger pushing her out of the window made me go "Oh dear".
Surprising she would need the abortion if she's been tossed out of a window.

Quote from: Sahib on June 02, 2011, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 01, 2011, 05:23:09 PM
All it really shows is that Tywin is a guy who enjoys a bit of butchering. Which I guess fits into the Lannisters as the Jews of Westeros thing, too cheap to even shell out for a butcher. hmm....adding in Tywin's commoness are the Lannisters: Yorkshire?
:huh:
Lannisters are pretty much the opposite of "cheap"

I recall that Tywin's dad wasn't, he was pretty free spending with his money and really damaged the Lannister's standing and wealth. Tywin though always struck me as somewhat scroogy.  Very good with his money.
In the books he never really comes across as a Yorkshireman-done-good (that I can remember anyway, I recall no real reference to his spending habits other than he isn't very generous) but its an explanation for the butchering. Not an entirely serious one either, maybe he just plain likes doing it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 05:11:06 PM
As I said: Ugh.

Hint: There are about 10 years between both events.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 02, 2011, 05:15:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 02, 2011, 05:11:06 PM
As I said: Ugh.

Hint: There are about 10 years between both events.  :rolleyes:

So he did it with her twice? That's new to me. I thought he just did it once which led to her having to get an abortion which led to the fuss with Jon Aryn getting her spoiled, her being unable to concieve, etc...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
Event 1: sex with Petyr

Event 2: murdered by Petyr

10 years have past between event 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 02, 2011, 05:26:40 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
Event 1: sex with Petyr

Event 2: murdered by Petyr

10 years1 have past between event 1 and 2.
We're not on about the events of the novels, we're on about the backstory when Littlefinger was a kid at Riverrun.
He had sex with Lysa, she had to have an abortion, her dad went on about how she was lucky Jon Aryn would even take her but he needed an alliance with the Tullys and figured if she could get pregnant once then she had proven potential to get pregnant again. The abortion messed her up though and made it difficult for her to concieve.
Littlefinger said in the lesbian scene he was saving himself for Cat- but we know that's not true, he has already done it with Lysa. Lysa being thrown out of a window is something I cannot recall and if it happened how come she needed an abortion- though thinking about it logically if he did it right away after the act then there was hardly time for her pregnancy to get started so...makes sense. Quite a major thing for me to forget though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 02, 2011, 05:34:58 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
Event 1: sex with Petyr

Event 2: murdered by Petyr

10 years have past between event 1 and 2.
So the events described by Solmyr as "Yes, but IIRC he was delirious from his wound or something and thought it was Cat. And when Lysa told him it was her, he tossed her out the window" took ten years to unfold?  I guess that makes sense in a way, but the sentence certainly doesn't sound like a description of a ten-year story arc!  :lol:

I had been confused about the "threw her out the window" bit myself, not having remembered that.  I should probably have realized that "window" was just a glib way of saying "hatch in the floor."  "He defenestrated her when he discovered he had deflowered her" would have been even more glib.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 02, 2011, 05:57:02 PM
Game of Thrones. It's serious bidness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2011, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 02, 2011, 05:34:58 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
Event 1: sex with Petyr

Event 2: murdered by Petyr

10 years have past between event 1 and 2.
So the events described by Solmyr as "Yes, but IIRC he was delirious from his wound or something and thought it was Cat. And when Lysa told him it was her, he tossed her out the window" took ten years to unfold?  I guess that makes sense in a way, but the sentence certainly doesn't sound like a description of a ten-year story arc!  :lol:

I had been confused about the "threw her out the window" bit myself, not having remembered that.  I should probably have realized that "window" was just a glib way of saying "hatch in the floor."  "He defenestrated her when he discovered he had deflowered her" would have been even more glib.

Yes, we know already you get confused every time someone makes a statement that in any way relies on context, uses an association or an analogy, or assumes some form of interpretation skill or knowledge on the part of the reader.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 03, 2011, 03:20:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2011, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 02, 2011, 05:34:58 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 02, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
Event 1: sex with Petyr

Event 2: murdered by Petyr

10 years have past between event 1 and 2.
So the events described by Solmyr as "Yes, but IIRC he was delirious from his wound or something and thought it was Cat. And when Lysa told him it was her, he tossed her out the window" took ten years to unfold?  I guess that makes sense in a way, but the sentence certainly doesn't sound like a description of a ten-year story arc!  :lol:

I had been confused about the "threw her out the window" bit myself, not having remembered that.  I should probably have realized that "window" was just a glib way of saying "hatch in the floor."  "He defenestrated her when he discovered he had deflowered her" would have been even more glib.

Yes, we know already you get confused every time someone makes a statement that in any way relies on context, uses an association or an analogy, or assumes some form of interpretation skill or knowledge on the part of the reader.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyhaha.com%2F_pics%2Foh_no_you_didnt.jpg&hash=6dbeb7828abbbb344235d732cf902b1c81e2b558)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 03, 2011, 05:41:32 AM
My work here is done. :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2011, 06:32:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2011, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 02, 2011, 05:34:58 PM
So the events described by Solmyr as "Yes, but IIRC he was delirious from his wound or something and thought it was Cat. And when Lysa told him it was her, he tossed her out the window" took ten years to unfold?  I guess that makes sense in a way, but the sentence certainly doesn't sound like a description of a ten-year story arc!  :lol:

I had been confused about the "threw her out the window" bit myself, not having remembered that.  I should probably have realized that "window" was just a glib way of saying "hatch in the floor."  "He defenestrated her when he discovered he had deflowered her" would have been even more glib.

Yes, we know already you get confused every time someone makes a statement that in any way relies on context, uses an association or an analogy, or assumes some form of interpretation skill or knowledge on the part of the reader.
I am just going to quote this for archival purposes, so you cannot delete your post and claim you never made it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2011, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2011, 06:32:24 AM
I like turtles.

:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 03, 2011, 01:25:59 PM
Nothing to see here. Move along :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2011, 01:29:18 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 03, 2011, 01:25:59 PM
Somewhere on the internet there's a website that caters to a combination of both your faux loves :contract:
My post was inappropriate, I realized when looking at it again, and I deleted it.  Could you edit out my post from your post?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 03, 2011, 01:33:41 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 03, 2011, 01:25:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2011, 01:23:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2011, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2011, 06:32:24 AM
I like turtles.
I like little girls.
:huh:
Somewhere on the internet there's a website that caters to a combination of both your faux loves :contract:

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 03, 2011, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2011, 01:29:18 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 03, 2011, 01:25:59 PM
Somewhere on the internet there's a website that caters to a combination of both your faux loves :contract:
My post was inappropriate, I realized when looking at it again, and I deleted it.  Could you edit out my post from your post?
Done :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2011, 02:17:21 PM
WTF
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2011, 02:20:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2011, 02:17:21 PM
WTF

You would be really livid if you saw the things Marty posted about you and deleted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 03, 2011, 02:23:16 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2011, 02:20:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 03, 2011, 02:17:21 PM
WTF

You would be really livid if you saw the things Marty posted about you and deleted.

My cock is normal-sized. :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 05, 2011, 09:07:29 PM
I just saw the last episode.
They are really, really, missing the scale of the action.
The sizes of armies and encampments are far off.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2011, 09:26:35 PM
The Lannister camp was huge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2011, 11:18:51 PM
A lot of setup in this episode, not much resolution.

What's the relationship of Starkistan and the River Lords?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 05, 2011, 11:25:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2011, 11:18:51 PM
What's the relationship of Starkistan and the River Lords?

The Starks are the head family of the North and Ned's wife, Catelyn, is the daughter Hoster Tully who is head of the Riverlands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2011, 11:38:40 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 05, 2011, 11:25:49 PM
The Starks are the head family of the North and Ned's wife, Catelyn, is the daughter Hoster Tully who is head of the Riverlands.

Is Tully fighting the Lannisters because of the succession issue, or do they have some other beef?  Or out of loyalty to the Starks?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 05, 2011, 11:50:08 PM
The hostilities started with Lannister dogs raiding the riverlands. At any rate it seems to have been expected that Tully would ally with Stark because of the marriage, just as it was expected of house Arryn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2011, 11:52:36 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 05, 2011, 11:50:08 PM
The hostilities started with Lannister dogs raiding the riverlands. At any rate it seems to have been expected that Tully would ally with Stark because of the marriage, just as it was expected of house Arryn.

Oh right, that's the weeping peasants and their fish, right?  So that predates the succession issue.  Were the Lannisters trying for straight up conquest there, or some other game?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2011, 12:23:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2011, 11:52:36 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 05, 2011, 11:50:08 PM
The hostilities started with Lannister dogs raiding the riverlands. At any rate it seems to have been expected that Tully would ally with Stark because of the marriage, just as it was expected of house Arryn.

Oh right, that's the weeping peasants and their fish, right?  So that predates the succession issue.  Were the Lannisters trying for straight up conquest there, or some other game?
Catelyn Stark kidnapped Tyrion Lannister. Catelyn was originally a Tully. The Tully's have been close allies of the Starks since that marriage. That's why they were attacked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 06, 2011, 12:44:35 AM
Damn. Anyone notice how badly Snow was hurt by the flame?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 01:22:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2011, 12:23:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2011, 11:52:36 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 05, 2011, 11:50:08 PM
The hostilities started with Lannister dogs raiding the riverlands. At any rate it seems to have been expected that Tully would ally with Stark because of the marriage, just as it was expected of house Arryn.

Oh right, that's the weeping peasants and their fish, right?  So that predates the succession issue.  Were the Lannisters trying for straight up conquest there, or some other game?
Catelyn Stark kidnapped Tyrion Lannister. Catelyn was originally a Tully. The Tully's have been close allies of the Starks since that marriage. That's why they were attacked.

Yup. And Riverlands are the easiest pick of the three for Lannisters (since the Arryn stronghold is thought impregnable and Winterfell is too far North whereas Riverlands border Westerlands, owned by Lannisters). Plus if Lannisters control Riverlands (or, more specifically, The Twins - the castle held by the Tully's bannermen, the Freys), they control the only safe passage from the North into the South - Moat Cailin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 07:50:46 AM
Pretty decent episiode.

Could have been better if the meeting between Tyrion and Tywin had shown a little more what a man of the earth Tywin is - maybe he could have been hoeing the peas or something like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:00:50 AM
So they did not show Syrio dying, in an episode written by GRRM. Let the conspiracy theories run loose.

Also, Hodor dong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2011, 08:07:55 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:00:50 AM
So they did not show Syrio dying, in an episode written by GRRM. Let the conspiracy theories run loose.

Yeah, that's one conspiracy theory I can get behind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 08:12:39 AM
Do the Stark bannermen appear in this episode? And the Hill tribes? Are manhoods threatened to be cut off and fed to the goats?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 08:20:09 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2011, 08:07:55 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:00:50 AM
So they did not show Syrio dying, in an episode written by GRRM. Let the conspiracy theories run loose.

Yeah, that's one conspiracy theory I can get behind.

That's a fan favourite, apparently, but I've read some convincing explanations about how it's not really possible. They deal mostly with the fact that Syrio *had* to be a very well established character in the court in order to get hired as Arya's "dancing instructor". He also gives a lot of background about himself which would jeopardize his position if it was proved to be made up, and very little time pass from Syrio exiting the scene and Jaquen entering, as theoretically he had been in the black dungeons for a while. If Syrio and Jaquen are the same dude, that plan was long in the making.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:23:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 08:12:39 AM
Do the Stark bannermen appear in this episode? And the Hill tribes? Are manhoods threatened to be cut off and fed to the goats?

Yes on all three.

As for Jaqen, he apparently moves on to impersonating an Oldtown alchemist in aFfC, so whatever his plan is, it must be pretty complex with many phases.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 08:37:42 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:23:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 08:12:39 AM
Do the Stark bannermen appear in this episode? And the Hill tribes? Are manhoods threatened to be cut off and fed to the goats?

Yes on all three.

As for Jaqen, he apparently moves on to impersonating an Oldtown alchemist in aFfC, so whatever his plan is, it must be pretty complex with many phases.

Yup, the Jaquen - Alchemist connection I can buy, the Jaquen - Syrio not so much.

How do the Stark bannersmen and the hill tribes fare? Do the actors look and act the part? I've been waiting to see Big Jon Umber, Roose Bolton, Shagga, Tymmet and the rest for too long!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:41:17 AM
Only the Greatjon gets spoken lines, the other Stark bannermen are not named. I expect they might show Bolton in the next episode.

They do show all three of Shagga, Timmett, and Chella, though only Shagga says anything.

All of them seem fine as far as casting goes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:44:03 AM
Oh, and they also show Rickon, who gets a line.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 06, 2011, 08:53:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 01:22:10 AM
Plus if Lannisters control Riverlands (or, more specifically, The Twins - the castle held by the Tully's bannermen, the Freys), they control the only safe passage from the North into the South - Moat Cailin.

Err, the Freys don't control Moat Cailin at any point in the books afaik. In the beginning it's not even manned-- Eddard instructs Catelyn to fortify it when he sends her back north. Later it's held by the Ironmen. The Freys do control the Crossing, which is the only good route from the North to Riverrun and the West.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 09:54:33 AM
Quote from: Maximus on June 06, 2011, 08:53:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 01:22:10 AM
Plus if Lannisters control Riverlands (or, more specifically, The Twins - the castle held by the Tully's bannermen, the Freys), they control the only safe passage from the North into the South - Moat Cailin.

Err, the Freys don't control Moat Cailin at any point in the books afaik. In the beginning it's not even manned-- Eddard instructs Catelyn to fortify it when he sends her back north. Later it's held by the Ironmen. The Freys do control the Crossing, which is the only good route from the North to Riverrun and the West.

Ok, gotcha. Make it the Crossing then, not Moat Cailin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 02:28:47 PM
Dunno if this is the magic of the name (the episode was written by the Mountain That Writes) but I really felt the "spirit" of the books in this episode. Really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2011, 02:33:53 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:44:03 AM
Oh, and they also show Rickon, who gets a line.

Rickon's line is much more ominous when said in the TV show, basically the scene exists to allow Rickon to speak the line. When this happens during a time period where the Blackfish, Karstark, Glover and Bolton mesmerize by their absence. In the book it just seems like a throwaway line from a child that feels abandoned, in the TV show the line becomes significant.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 06, 2011, 02:41:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2011, 02:33:53 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 06, 2011, 08:44:03 AM
Oh, and they also show Rickon, who gets a line.

Rickon's line is much more ominous when said in the TV show, basically the scene exists to allow Rickon to speak the line. When this happens during a time period where the Blackfish, Karstark, Glover and Bolton mesmerize by their absence. In the book it just seems like a throwaway line from a child that feels abandoned, in the TV show the line becomes significant.

It becomes more ominous in a way that the written word simply can't convey.

6 year old kid makes a serious announcement to the tone of ominous music. We are conditioned to listen by several audiovisual cues where a reader might completely overlook the importance.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidwygant.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F%2Fi-see-dead-people-vote.jpg&hash=ffba9549e0f0659caf1ddefe5b1fc1ef8f4adc00)

Come to think of it, it would've worked even better if they'd gone with "No" [dramatic pause] "They won't."  :D

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 06, 2011, 02:43:32 PM
They mostly come out at night. Mostly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 02:51:36 PM
Also, Ser Barristan Fucking Selmy Fucking Rocks.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 06, 2011, 02:56:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 02:51:36 PM
Also, Ser Barristan Fucking Selmy Fucking Rocks.  :cool:

Concur. Did you notice how at the end of that scene just before it cuts out, the kingsguard on the far right has visible trouble sheathing his sword. Not very knightly of him.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 06, 2011, 03:00:25 PM
Yea I have to agree. One of the best-cast positions so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 06, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
To watch this show without having read the books must be a tremendous treat.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 03:05:32 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 06, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
To watch this show without having read the books must be a tremendous treat.  :hmm:

I think it cuts both ways. For people who did not read the books, the plot turns must be a treat. But for people who read the books, the casting is awesome and it is great to see all those scenes come to life.

I kinda like how this episode focused on the "nitty gritty" characters, the "good guys" of the series, be it Daenerys preventing a gang rape, Robb leading troops to war or Ser Barristan doing his act. I must say I enjoy the panache of characters like Littlefinger, Varys or Cersei for the sheer evil goodness (Alexis Colby/Carrington style), but the good guys still make my eyes go wet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
Ser Barristan is a pretty interesting character. Dude has clearly very high standards of honor (rather Ned like in fact) yet seems pretty content serving those who clearly are

A) Mad (Aerys), or
B) Incompetent (Robert), or
C) Totally without honor, not competent, and probaby not legitimate (Joffrey/Cersei)

Why didn't he bail a long time ago? Clearly he was totally dedicated to the Kingsguard, not matter what. To that extent, Joffrey almost certainly did the man a favor, since it gave him an out that was probably not available to him otherwise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 03:11:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
Ser Barristan is a pretty interesting character. Dude has clearly very high standards of honor (rather Ned like in fact) yet seems pretty content serving those who clearly are

A) Mad (Aerys), or
B) Incompetent (Robert), or
C) Totally without honor, not competent, and probaby not legitimate (Joffrey/Cersei)

Why didn't he bail a long time ago? Clearly he was totally dedicated to the Kingsguard, not matter what. To that extent, Joffrey almost certainly did the man a favor, since it gave him an out that was probably not available to him otherwise.

Yup, my thoughts exactly.

Incidentally, the guy is not just an old fool serving unworthy kings. If you read the Westerosi "apocrypha" (the short stories GRRM wrote), he was a true badass in his youth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:14:24 PM
And he does have a disturbing habit of serving the people who just killed the last king he swore to give his life to protect. Granted, in each case he has little ability to save said king under the circumstances, but still...hell, if Joffrey had not dismissed him, he certainly would have been around to watch HIM drop dead as well!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:15:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 03:11:40 PM
Incidentally, the guy is not just an old fool serving unworthy kings. If you read the Westerosi "apocrypha" (the short stories GRRM wrote), he was a true badass in his youth.

Oh, I think they make it pretty clear he was a total badass even outside the apocrypha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 06, 2011, 03:15:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
Ser Barristan is a pretty interesting character. Dude has clearly very high standards of honor (rather Ned like in fact) yet seems pretty content serving those who clearly are

A) Mad (Aerys), or
B) Incompetent (Robert), or
C) Totally without honor, not competent, and probaby not legitimate (Joffrey/Cersei)

Why didn't he bail a long time ago? Clearly he was totally dedicated to the Kingsguard, not matter what. To that extent, Joffrey almost certainly did the man a favor, since it gave him an out that was probably not available to him otherwise.

It's perfectly reasonable. He's not the kind of man who wants to busy himself with pedestrian activities such as, say, preparing his own meal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2011, 03:23:19 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 06, 2011, 02:51:36 PM
Also, Ser Barristan Fucking Selmy Fucking Rocks.  :cool:

Generally agree, but the way the firing scene played out I thought he came across as petty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 06, 2011, 03:30:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:10:14 PM

Why didn't he bail a long time ago? Clearly he was totally dedicated to the Kingsguard, not matter what. To that extent, Joffrey almost certainly did the man a favor, since it gave him an out that was probably not available to him otherwise.
I don't think Joffrey gave him an out. He just made it clear that Joffrey was not the king Ser Barristan was supposed to be guarding.

Remember that Barristan fought with Rhaegar on the trident. He was badly wounded and captured, but Robert pardoned him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 06, 2011, 03:30:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:10:14 PM

Why didn't he bail a long time ago? Clearly he was totally dedicated to the Kingsguard, not matter what. To that extent, Joffrey almost certainly did the man a favor, since it gave him an out that was probably not available to him otherwise.
I don't think Joffrey gave him an out. He just made it clear that Joffrey was not the king Ser Barristan was supposed to be guarding.

Remember that Barristan fought with Rhaegar on the trident. He was badly wounded and captured, but Robert pardoned him.

I don't think Barristan even considers going to anyone else no matter what if Joffrey does not fire him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 03:43:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 06, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
Ser Barristan is a pretty interesting character. Dude has clearly very high standards of honor (rather Ned like in fact) yet seems pretty content serving those who clearly are

A) Mad (Aerys), or
B) Incompetent (Robert), or
C) Totally without honor, not competent, and probaby not legitimate (Joffrey/Cersei)

Why didn't he bail a long time ago? Clearly he was totally dedicated to the Kingsguard, not matter what. To that extent, Joffrey almost certainly did the man a favor, since it gave him an out that was probably not available to him otherwise.

He's honourable, yes, but he's also extremely dutiful and married to the job. He swore an oath to protect the king, and that's the only thing in his head. He has no life besides that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 06, 2011, 03:50:39 PM
Ser Barristan is Frank Horrigan from In The Line of Fire? :hmm:  I rather liked last night's episode.  The combining of Khal Drogo moments was needed to ensure the pacing continued, and I think it worked pretty well.  I think the attack on The Old Bear could have been done better, but ultimately it also worked out alright.  I'm definitely looking forward to the last two episodes of the season (series for you Britards).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 06, 2011, 03:52:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 03:43:32 PM
He's honourable, yes, but he's also extremely dutiful and married to the job. He swore an oath to protect the king, and that's the only thing in his head. He has no life besides that.
Yes but which king?

It seems to me that Selmy decided that whichever king held the Iron Throne was the one to protect. When that was taken from him he went with the other option.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 03:56:04 PM
It's a pity that they didn't include the "I'll only serve the true king" line that he utters in the books. That makes it clear that he doesn't consider Joffrey the legitimate king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2011, 04:14:15 PM
Aye, that would be a pretty major line.

QuoteYup, my thoughts exactly.

Incidentally, the guy is not just an old fool serving unworthy kings. If you read the Westerosi "apocrypha" (the short stories GRRM wrote), he was a true badass in his youth.
Which stories are these?
I only know of Dunc and Egg and they predate him by a while. Unfamilar with others.

QuoteOh, and they also show Rickon, who gets a line.
Heh. My parents there remarked that they didn't know there was another son.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2011, 04:15:42 PM
Well, the whole scene already telegraphed the fact that he's amenable to joining up with the good guys.

If only he can dig up some replacement armor somewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:18:53 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2011, 04:15:42 PM
Well, the whole scene already telegraphed the fact that he's amenable to joining up with the good guys.

If only he can dig up some replacement armor somewhere.

he dumped his cloak and helm, not his armor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
He dumps his armour in the books I'm sure.
When he shows up again he's not wearing it anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
He dumps his armour in the books I'm sure.
When he shows up again he's not wearing it anyway.

Yes, in the book he drops it all, and then Joffrey sends guards after him to seize him for the perceived threat. Of course, those guards get butchered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2011, 04:28:17 PM
Yeah, I was disappointed that we didn't at least get a glimpse of the guards sent after him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2011, 04:29:23 PM
Reminds me of the scene in Bring It On II in which the heroine signals her disgust with the cheerleading squad by stripping out of her uniform and tossing it at their feet.

FYI, the little outer panties they wear over their inner panties are called "skippies."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
He dumps his armour in the books I'm sure.
When he shows up again he's not wearing it anyway.

Yes, in the book he drops it all, and then Joffrey sends guards after him to seize him for the perceived threat. Of course, those guards get butchered.

I like the detail that he filled in the entry in the white book about him being relieved of duty.

Strong Belwas next.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:35:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
He dumps his armour in the books I'm sure.
When he shows up again he's not wearing it anyway.

Yes, in the book he drops it all, and then Joffrey sends guards after him to seize him for the perceived threat. Of course, those guards get butchered.

I like the detail that he filled in the entry in the white book about him being relieved of duty.

Strong Belwas next.

Yeah, managing to include a taunt to Jaime Lannister in the process, IIRC.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:37:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
He dumps his armour in the books I'm sure.
When he shows up again he's not wearing it anyway.

Yes, in the book he drops it all, and then Joffrey sends guards after him to seize him for the perceived threat. Of course, those guards get butchered.

He drops his breastplate in the book, not his cloak as he does on TV.

QuoteSer Barristan looked up sharply. "A hall to die in, and men to bury me. I thank you, my lords... but I spit upon your pity." He reached up and undid the clasps that held his cloak in place, and the heavy white garment slithered from his shoulders to fall in a heap on the floor. His helmet dropped with a clang. "I am a knight," he told them. He opened the silver fastenings of his breastplate and let that fall as well. "I shall die a knight."
"A naked knight, it would seem," quipped Littlefinger.
They all laughed then, Joffrey on his throne, and the lords standing attendance, Janos Slynt and Queen Cersei and Sandor Clegane and even the other men of the Kingsguard, the five who had been his brothers until a moment ago. Surely that must have hurt the most, Sansa thought. Her heart went out to the gallant old man as he stood shamed and red-faced, too angry to speak. Finally he drew his sword.
Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt. "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe... no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white." He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. "Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne."
He took the long way out, his steps ringing loud against the floor
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:45:22 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:37:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
He dumps his armour in the books I'm sure.
When he shows up again he's not wearing it anyway.

Yes, in the book he drops it all, and then Joffrey sends guards after him to seize him for the perceived threat. Of course, those guards get butchered.

He drops his breastplate in the book, not his cloak as he does on TV.

QuoteSer Barristan looked up sharply. "A hall to die in, and men to bury me. I thank you, my lords... but I spit upon your pity." He reached up and undid the clasps that held his cloak in place, and the heavy white garment slithered from his shoulders to fall in a heap on the floor. His helmet dropped with a clang. "I am a knight," he told them. He opened the silver fastenings of his breastplate and let that fall as well. "I shall die a knight."
"A naked knight, it would seem," quipped Littlefinger.
They all laughed then, Joffrey on his throne, and the lords standing attendance, Janos Slynt and Queen Cersei and Sandor Clegane and even the other men of the Kingsguard, the five who had been his brothers until a moment ago. Surely that must have hurt the most, Sansa thought. Her heart went out to the gallant old man as he stood shamed and red-faced, too angry to speak. Finally he drew his sword.
Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt. "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe... no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white." He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. "Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne."
He took the long way out, his steps ringing loud against the floor

:contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:47:56 PM
mistype, I meant not just his cloak... I was proving you right...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:55:40 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:47:56 PM
mistype, I meant not just his cloak... I was proving you right...

What a diference just a word makes.  :lol:  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:55:40 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2011, 04:47:56 PM
mistype, I meant not just his cloak... I was proving you right...

What a diference just a word makes.  :lol:  ;)

word
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2011, 05:25:27 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:35:59 PM
Yeah, managing to include a taunt to Jaime Lannister in the process, IIRC.  :lol:

Drawing a blank on this one.  Was this where Jaime was looking through the book and reading all of the other's accomplishments?  What was his taunt towards Jaime?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2011, 05:33:04 PM
Should have kept the Stannis line in there. We don't hear nearly enough about him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2011, 05:25:27 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2011, 04:35:59 PM
Yeah, managing to include a taunt to Jaime Lannister in the process, IIRC.  :lol:

Drawing a blank on this one.  Was this where Jaime was looking through the book and reading all of the other's accomplishments?  What was his taunt towards Jaime?

Can't remember right now, it's from the 3rd book, when Jaime is back in King's Landing and acting as Lord Commander. He is waiting for the Kingsguard to arrive and checks the White Book in the meanwhile. He observes that Barristan kept it up to date until the very end and somehow managed to make Jaime's entry into it accurate and at the same time insulting, or something like that. It's been a while.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2011, 06:14:09 PM
I remember Jamie's entry just being rather empty and lame in comparison. It mentions the kingslayer business I think? Don't know if that was Barristan's doing upon leaving though, assumed jhe would have done that as part of his regular duties long before leaving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Reading the comments about episode 8 got me to watch this again.  Got to agree with Berk on episode 7.  The richest Lord in the land cleaning out the entrails and then skinning an animal.  He doesnt have huntsmen or butchers for that sort of thing?  Remember how the Hound rode down a mere butcher's son?

How the Mighty Lannisters have fallen in the transition from book to screenplay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 07, 2011, 12:18:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Reading the comments about episode 8 got me to watch this again.  Got to agree with Berk on episode 7.  The richest Lord in the land cleaning out the entrails and then skinning an animal.  He doesnt have huntsmen or butchers for that sort of thing?  Remember how the Hound rode down a mere butcher's son?

How the Mighty Lannisters have fallen in the transition from book to screenplay.

Um I agree with Berkut on that scene but lets not go nuts about it.  The portrayal of the Lannisters in the show has, for the most part, been great.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 07, 2011, 12:18:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Reading the comments about episode 8 got me to watch this again.  Got to agree with Berk on episode 7.  The richest Lord in the land cleaning out the entrails and then skinning an animal.  He doesnt have huntsmen or butchers for that sort of thing?  Remember how the Hound rode down a mere butcher's son?

How the Mighty Lannisters have fallen in the transition from book to screenplay.

Um I agree with Berkut on that scene but lets not go nuts about it.  The portrayal of the Lannisters in the show has, for the most part, been great.

How is making a point about how incongruent the scene was with the books "going nuts"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 07, 2011, 12:22:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 12:21:29 PM
How is making a point about how incongruent the scene was with the books "going nuts"

I don't know.  That is why I found your second paragraph so puzzling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 12:33:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 07, 2011, 12:22:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 12:21:29 PM
How is making a point about how incongruent the scene was with the books "going nuts"

I don't know.  That is why I found your second paragraph so puzzling.

Why, Lord Lannister was portrayed as a mere butcher in the very first scene in which he is introduced.  First thing that comes to my mind when I see that is how the mighty have fallen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2011, 01:02:25 PM
Yet you pluralized it, making it seem as if others have come across the same way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2011, 01:02:25 PM
Yet you pluralized it, making it seem as if others have come across the same way.

The Lord of the Lannisters is brought low. Not so hard to understand I would think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 07, 2011, 01:21:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Reading the comments about episode 8 got me to watch this again.  Got to agree with Berk on episode 7.  The richest Lord in the land cleaning out the entrails and then skinning an animal.  He doesnt have huntsmen or butchers for that sort of thing?  Remember how the Hound rode down a mere butcher's son?

How the Mighty Lannisters have fallen in the transition from book to screenplay.
I see it in another way: it shows us a man who's not afraid to get dirty himself to achieve his goals.  In the book, you can describe the character of a person, in a movie/tv show, you have to see it.  We see that the Lord Lannister is not only plotting to have his ennemies removed from his path, like his kids, but he can actively take part in a confrontation if need be.  And that's all in one tiny scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 01:37:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 07, 2011, 01:21:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Reading the comments about episode 8 got me to watch this again.  Got to agree with Berk on episode 7.  The richest Lord in the land cleaning out the entrails and then skinning an animal.  He doesnt have huntsmen or butchers for that sort of thing?  Remember how the Hound rode down a mere butcher's son?

How the Mighty Lannisters have fallen in the transition from book to screenplay.
I see it in another way: it shows us a man who's not afraid to get dirty himself to achieve his goals.  In the book, you can describe the character of a person, in a movie/tv show, you have to see it.  We see that the Lord Lannister is not only plotting to have his ennemies removed from his path, like his kids, but he can actively take part in a confrontation if need be.  And that's all in one tiny scene.

Yeah, that's how I saw that scene too. It's a counterpoint to Ned Stark beheading the deserter himself (where the same argument could have been made, but there it was a scene taken straight out of the books). The difference of course being that where Ned Stark's "peculiarity" is rooted in his sense of fairness and justice (if perhaps misguided to some), Tywin Lannister's "peculiarity" is rooted in his brutality.

It also shows him as a practical man, and one quite different from his son in law who just goes to kill the boar (and presumedly promptly heads home in a drunken haze), whereas Tywin drives the point to its very conclusion, and does so with sober precision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 01:41:54 PM
Plus let's not forget that this is tv, and it needs it theatrics. What was the alternative? Tywin receiving Jaime while poring over maps and whatnot? That would be exactly the same as the "Tywin meets Tyrion" scene (albeit with no Shagga and Bronn to make it fun), i.e. boring. Plus it would show Tywin as a high level strategist, and not a man with blood on his hands.

I think the scene establishes above all else one trait about Tywin: ruthlessness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 01:47:25 PM
You have to be ruthless to spill a dead animals guts all over your tent?

No.  You just have to be a peasant to do that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
 :lol:

Drop it, Marty. I don't think it matters how thoroughly you explain it to them, they still won't get it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 01:53:21 PM
It looks to me like he can actively take part in skinning a deer. That is right up there with weeding the potato garden and polishing his armor - menial tasks that great lords have others to do for them.

I don't see how it says anything about his political or military will to "get dirty".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 01:53:21 PM
It looks to me like he can actively take part in skinning a deer. That is right up there with weeding the potato garden and polishing his armor - menial tasks that great lords have others to do for them.

I don't see how it says anything about his political or military will to "get dirty".

Come on, weeding shows that he is precise and willing to get to the heart of the matter.  Polishing his Armour shows he is ready and willing to fight.  These things cannot be explained in any other way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
:lol:

Drop it, Marty. I don't think it matters how thoroughly you explain it to them, they still won't get it.

because no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig, it is still a pig.

And really, comparing the willingness to behead a man you sentenced to death to your willingness to skin a deer?

Killing a man has a bit more emotional investment, I suspect, than skinning a deer, which is frankly grossly routine in that world. Nobody is going to find it an interesting character trait that this great and noble lord skins his own deer. It is pedestrian.

Indeed, in contrast to Ned's demand that he who passes the sentence should be willing to swing the sword, it seems even more ridiculously petty.

And yes, I can imagine several better ways to portray that meeting. If you really want to show that Tywin is a heartless bastard, he could be talking to Gregor Clegane, for example, and telling him what a fine job he is doing killing Riverlanders - or Tywin could be doing some of that himself, or rejecting some poor Riverlanders request for mercy or whatever.

Actually, I really like that idea - some poor peasant (or minor lord) thinking to go to the great Lord to beg protection or justice from the madman Mountain (peasant has no clue that Tywin sent him to begin with, of course) and how Tywin handles it.

But oh look, Lord Tywin is busy with his secondary profession of camp butcher! Nah, you have to be a bit of an apologist to make that work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:00:15 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 01:53:21 PM
It looks to me like he can actively take part in skinning a deer. That is right up there with weeding the potato garden and polishing his armor - menial tasks that great lords have others to do for them.

I don't see how it says anything about his political or military will to "get dirty".

Come on, weeding shows that he is precise and willing to get to the heart of the matter.  Polishing his Armour shows he is ready and willing to fight.  These things cannot be explained in any other way.

I still think it was some writer thinking this was cool in Gangs of New York, so would be extra cool here...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2011, 02:15:32 PM
I haven't seen the scene in question yet, but don't understand why Berkut rejects the idea that the gutting of the stag was symbolic of Tywin's willingness to get his hands bloody over the struggle with the Baratheons.  Either the scene was completely silly and stupid and unrealistic and inspired by outside influences, like Berkut argues, or it is clever in demonstrating both how Tywin Lannister views the Baratheons and how he intends to deal with them using a visual suited to the medium.

What indicates that it was the former and not the latter?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 07, 2011, 02:25:38 PM
TV Tywin is a confused lord who is unable to tell the difference between tasks. Book Tywin is a ruthless and generally competent lord. There is no great mystery here, they just changed the character a bit for television.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 02:27:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2011, 02:15:32 PM
What indicates that it was the former and not the latter?

The dialogue for one.  He is dressing down his son for the way he dealt with Tyrion's capture and his confrontation with Stark over the issue.   Perhaps if it had been a wolf or a Fish.

Also, his grandson is the heir.  At this point why is there any imagary necessary of how he is going to deal with the Baratheons since that would mean gutting and skinning his own blood. You would have to know what happens to the heir for that scene to make any sense from the Marti perspective.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:43:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 07, 2011, 02:15:32 PM
I haven't seen the scene in question yet, but don't understand why Berkut rejects the idea that the gutting of the stag was symbolic of Tywin's willingness to get his hands bloody over the struggle with the Baratheons. 

Well, I don't reject that it is possible that is what they were going for, just think it is a bit silly and it doesn't work.

And as far as symobolism goes, the struggle is NOT with the Baratheons at all - at least not yet. At this point the struggle is with the Starks - they are the ones who have siezed Tyrion, and who Jaime attacked. As far as Tywin knows, there is no reason to have any dispute with any Baratheons yet.

I don't think the scene is at all an attempt for something as profound as the dead deer representing his enemies. Just an attempt by the writers to create a certain mental image in the viewers about Tywin - I just think it pretty much fails, and just seems kind of silly.

My wife was very much "Uhhh, why is he skinning that deer right here in our living room???"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 07, 2011, 02:48:19 PM
I saw the scene in question and just thought he was trying to get into his sons head. Maybe i don't dive in too deeply, or you guys dive in to deeply :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:51:39 PM
Hehe - random blog post:

QuoteSometimes, as I'm watching Game of Thrones, I like to imagine a conversation going on at GoT HQ that sounds something like this:

    "We have some information that needs getting across. We've got to have two characters talk to each other about stuff."

    "But this is HBO. The characters can't just talk. We've got to put either a sex scene or something gross in the background."

    "How about a chest-shaving scene? A corpse's neck being sewn up?"

    "No, no, we already used those two. How about a dead deer being skinned?"

    "Perfect! And then we'll have two whores perform oral sex on each other while another character monologues."

    "DONE."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:29:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:43:06 PM
My wife was very much "Uhhh, why is he skinning that deer right here in our living room???"

O. K... *backs away slowly*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:31:47 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."

But...skinning a deer isn't a fundamentally bad thing though. It is a "down to earth/hick" thing. I expect to see Rambo skinning his own deer, not Tywin Lannister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."

This pretty much sums it up for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."

This pretty much sums it up for me.

How odd, since you claimed the reason was something else entirely - that it was the means of showing that Tywin was willing to get his hands dirty.

Then you went with it was somehow symbolic of the Lion killing the antelope when someone threw that one out there.

Now slargos new idea that it shows that Tywin is a bad guy "sums it up for you".

Riiiggggght.

I think it is safe to say that you are just going to be a Timmay for the show at this point. Short of some perceived slight against gay people, of course.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:35:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:31:47 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."

But...skinning a deer isn't a fundamentally bad thing though. It is a "down to earth/hick" thing. I expect to see Rambo skinning his own deer, not Tywin Lannister.

Since you seem to have missed it last time I explained this to you, I'll mention it again:

It's not about the act being bad or good, it's about the feeling a lot of people are going to get from the scene. If this were aired for a 1910 audience, they'd probably have to find something else since the act of skinning an animal would be far more natural for the audience than today. Add to this the subject of what he's talking about, and the complete lack of emotion other than determined boredom he's displaying, and the scene works perfectly.

But I suspect that no matter how many different ways I go about explaining the conclusion both I and Martinus seem to have drawn from this scene, you simply won't get it. And frankly, that's fine. This is not science, this is art and despite what Minsky would claim there is no one "true" appreciation of it.

Even if you're way off base.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:38:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."

This pretty much sums it up for me.

How odd, since you claimed the reason was something else entirely - that it was the means of showing that Tywin was willing to get his hands dirty.

Then you went with it was somehow symbolic of the Lion killing the antelope when someone threw that one out there.

Now slargos new idea that it shows that Tywin is a bad guy "sums it up for you".

Riiiggggght.

I think it is safe to say that you are just going to be a Timmay for the show at this point. Short of some perceived slight against gay people, of course.

Slargos, unless I misunderstood you, your post says the same I did - the scene conveys the message that Tywin is not afraid to get his hands dirty. Do you understand what Berkut is blabbering about, as I don't get it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:40:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:38:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Note that my bitch such as it is, is not based on any demand for slavish loyalty to the book - I get that the different medium demands some different ways of conveying messages to the audience. For example, I had no problem at all with the conversation between Robert and Cersei, and thought it did a nice job of helping the viewer understand their relationship that needed to be explained.

So I get that the visual medium has some different needs. I just think that whatever the writer was going for when they said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Tywin was skinning this deer in graphic detail!", they didn't accomplish. The attempts to try to make it fit sound a lot like people trying to tell me that Sarah Palins comments about Mr Revere really are not exactly incorrect...

I wonder if they just found out that the actor in question knew how to skin deer, and decided to capitalize on it?

:rolleyes:

It's an expedient way of telling the audience what kind of character they're watching.

Has dog: Is a good guy.

Is skinning a deer while dressing down his son: Is a bad guy.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the basis for your complaint. We have to make assumptions about what he enjoys doing in his spare time in order to explain why he skins his own deer, which is clumsy. However, the scene gives the viewer an immediate sense of what kind of story-character Tywin is. They could've had him hack the hands off a peasant, or spit on a black guy, or demand prima noctae at a scottish wedding. They went with skin a deer.

"Hey, that guy, he does not fuck around."

This pretty much sums it up for me.

How odd, since you claimed the reason was something else entirely - that it was the means of showing that Tywin was willing to get his hands dirty.

Then you went with it was somehow symbolic of the Lion killing the antelope when someone threw that one out there.

Now slargos new idea that it shows that Tywin is a bad guy "sums it up for you".

Riiiggggght.

I think it is safe to say that you are just going to be a Timmay for the show at this point. Short of some perceived slight against gay people, of course.

Slargos, unless I misunderstood you, your post says the same I did - the scene conveys the message that Tywin is not afraid to get his hands dirty. Do you understand what Berkut is blabbering about, as I don't get it.

I think we're more or less considering the scene from the same viewpoint (even though we're using different words to describe it). Berkut, however, is in the other room watching the scene through the wrong side of a pair of binoculars.

Unless of course, he's just trolling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:44:44 PM
Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 01:59:17 PM

Actually, I really like that idea - some poor peasant (or minor lord) thinking to go to the great Lord to beg protection or justice from the madman Mountain (peasant has no clue that Tywin sent him to begin with, of course) and how Tywin handles it.


Although this would've probably worked just as well to get the point through. Difference of course being that the scene we got was able to both convey the message about the character Tywin, as well as propel the story through the dialogue. This is why I really liked that scene. It worked on so many levels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 01:59:17 PM

Actually, I really like that idea - some poor peasant (or minor lord) thinking to go to the great Lord to beg protection or justice from the madman Mountain (peasant has no clue that Tywin sent him to begin with, of course) and how Tywin handles it.


Although this would've probably worked just as well to get the point through. Difference of course being that the scene we got was able to both convey the message about the character Tywin, as well as propel the story through the dialogue. This is why I really liked that scene. It worked on so many levels.

Precisely. Talking to a peasant would mean he is unable to talk to Jaime at the same time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:47:21 PM
Except that Tywin *doesn't* like to get his hands dirty.  He uses the Cleganes to do his murdering, his pen and quill to get others to eliminate rivals, he sends Tyrion to King's Landing to do the necessary and unpopular things and clear the way for himself to take over as Hand once the city is saved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:48:14 PM
Incidentally, I would have to rewatch the scene to see if there is any hint to that, but why are people assuming Tywin is skinning a deer "in his tent"? I suppose he may have more than one tent...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:47:21 PM
Except that Tywin *doesn't* like to get his hands dirty.  He uses the Cleganes to do his murdering, his pen and quill to get others to eliminate rivals, he sends Tyrion to King's Landing to do the necessary and unpopular things and clear the way for himself to take over as Hand once the city is saved.

That's the best point I have heard so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:44:44 PM
Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set.  :hmm:

Throughout this entire back and forth, my suspicion was that this was based on "OMG ICKY!" rather than "objection! relevance!" and it was certainly reinforced by that line.  :hmm:

They are Americans. It's really hard to understand what will get them going.

Children getting their heads bashed in by mutant robots and/or their parents in massive orgies of blood and guts - PG13.

A 15 year old girl kissing her 16 year old boyfriend on the cheek - R-rated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:50:52 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:35:37 PM

Since you seem to have missed it last time I explained this to you, I'll mention it again:

It's not about the act being bad or good, it's about the feeling a lot of people are going to get from the scene. If this were aired for a 1910 audience, they'd probably have to find something else since the act of skinning an animal would be far more natural for the audience than today. Add to this the subject of what he's talking about, and the complete lack of emotion other than determined boredom he's displaying, and the scene works perfectly.

Ahhh, so the key is that audiences today are too stupid to realize that skinning a deer is a completely pedestrian act in medieval times, so showing it is going to gross them out, therefore if Tywin is skinning a deer he must be a bad guy.

I guess by that same reasoning, Daenys is a bad guy as well, since she was shown doing something considerably MORE gross - eating the heart of a animal. So she must be a "bad guy" as well.

Of course, absent seeing Tywin engaged in some completely routine butchering work, there is no way the audience could have known he was a "bad guy". I am still not sure how we figured that out with Jaime and Cersei, since they haven't been able to skin anything at all!

Quote

But I suspect that no matter how many different ways I go about explaining the conclusion both I and Martinus seem to have drawn from this scene, you simply won't get it.

On the contrary, I get it perfectly. You are slapping layers of lipstick on that pig, and just cannot understand why people keep insisting that there is a pig - after all, look at that lovely shade of pink! Can't possibly be a pig!

Quote
And frankly, that's fine. This is not science, this is art and despite what Minsky would claim there is no one "true" appreciation of it.

Even if you're way off base.

True enough. If you decide ahead of time that you will find some way to claim that it something is aesthetically pleasing, then in fact you can always manage a means to justify it, even if it makes no sense in any kind of subjective context.

Skinning a deer is not weird. It is not gross. It doesn't convey any message about the person doing it in this context beyond "Hey, that guy doesn't have anything better to do with his time than completely pedestrian chores". I know what the writers were TRYING  to get across, it just simply doesn't work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:47:21 PM
Except that Tywin *doesn't* like to get his hands dirty.  He uses the Cleganes to do his murdering, his pen and quill to get others to eliminate rivals, he sends Tyrion to King's Landing to do the necessary and unpopular things and clear the way for himself to take over as Hand once the city is saved.

Shush, the scene is akin to something from the Godfather in its epicness. Quit trolling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:54:32 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:44:44 PM
Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set.  :hmm:

Throughout this entire back and forth, my suspicion was that this was based on "OMG ICKY!" rather than "objection! relevance!" and it was certainly reinforced by that line.  :hmm:

Uhhh, yeah, because clearly I cannot stand this show due to the "icky" of it. Why, watching Tywin butcher a deer (which, btw, YOU and Marty have claimed is "icky", not me - I think it is completely boring) is not nearly as gross as any number of other scenes.
Quote
They are Americans. It's really hard to understand what will get them going.

Ahhh, the Swede and the Pole allying to slander Americans. Stunning. You and Marty certainly have the pulse of America.

Quote

Children getting their heads bashed in by mutant robots and/or their parents in massive orgies of blood and guts - PG13.

A 15 year old girl kissing her 16 year old boyfriend on the cheek - R-rated.

:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:54:47 PM
e
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:50:52 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:35:37 PM

Since you seem to have missed it last time I explained this to you, I'll mention it again:

It's not about the act being bad or good, it's about the feeling a lot of people are going to get from the scene. If this were aired for a 1910 audience, they'd probably have to find something else since the act of skinning an animal would be far more natural for the audience than today. Add to this the subject of what he's talking about, and the complete lack of emotion other than determined boredom he's displaying, and the scene works perfectly.

Ahhh, so the key is that audiences today are too stupid to realize that skinning a deer is a completely pedestrian act in medieval times, so showing it is going to gross them out, therefore if Tywin is skinning a deer he must be a bad guy.

I guess by that same reasoning, Daenys is a bad guy as well, since she was shown doing something considerably MORE gross - eating the heart of a animal. So she must be a "bad guy" as well.

Of course, absent seeing Tywin engaged in some completely routine butchering work, there is no way the audience could have known he was a "bad guy". I am still not sure how we figured that out with Jaime and Cersei, since they haven't been able to skin anything at all!

Quote

But I suspect that no matter how many different ways I go about explaining the conclusion both I and Martinus seem to have drawn from this scene, you simply won't get it.

On the contrary, I get it perfectly. You are slapping layers of lipstick on that pig, and just cannot understand why people keep insisting that there is a pig - after all, look at that lovely shade of pink! Can't possibly be a pig!

Quote
And frankly, that's fine. This is not science, this is art and despite what Minsky would claim there is no one "true" appreciation of it.

Even if you're way off base.

True enough. If you decide ahead of time that you will find some way to claim that it something is aesthetically pleasing, then in fact you can always manage a means to justify it, even if it makes no sense in any kind of subjective context.

Skinning a deer is not weird. It is not gross. It doesn't convey any message about the person doing it in this context beyond "Hey, that guy doesn't have anything better to do with his time than completely pedestrian chores". I know what the writers were TRYING  to get across, it just simply doesn't work.

:D

You still don't get it.

I think it works. Daeny scene notwithstanding. The entire tone of her scene is so completely different they're not even comparable.

I understand that you don't think it works. You've made that very clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:56:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 03:54:32 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 03:44:44 PM
Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set.  :hmm:

Throughout this entire back and forth, my suspicion was that this was based on "OMG ICKY!" rather than "objection! relevance!" and it was certainly reinforced by that line.  :hmm:

Uhhh, yeah, because clearly I cannot stand this show due to the "icky" of it. Why, watching Tywin butcher a deer (which, btw, YOU and Marty have claimed is "icky", not me - I think it is completely boring) is not nearly as gross as any number of other scenes.
Quote
They are Americans. It's really hard to understand what will get them going.

Ahhh, the Swede and the Pole allying to slander Americans. Stunning. You and Marty certainly have the pulse of America.

Quote

Children getting their heads bashed in by mutant robots and/or their parents in massive orgies of blood and guts - PG13.

A 15 year old girl kissing her 16 year old boyfriend on the cheek - R-rated.

:huh:

I didn't say that was the case (how would I know that), I said that was my initial suspicion.

You really don't think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:00:43 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.

Yeah, I think this is a fair point. Also, for some reason (which, in light of your explanation, is not that entirely clear), there is this overwhelming feeling in the fandom that Tywin is a real "badass". I think the scene was meant to convey it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 04:01:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.

So you're agreeing with me. This calls, I think, for some kind of celebration.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 07, 2011, 04:02:55 PM
Skinning a deer is gross in my opinion.  This is coming from someone whose father and uncles hunted deer and would on occasion hang them to bleed out in view.  It is especially gross to my mental processing when done in a very brutal, efficient manner.  In my opinion, the scene worked to translate Tywin as a brutal, efficient, commanding figure.  Were there other ways to establish that?  Sure.  Did this one work for me personally and some friends of mine who saw it?  Yes.  Sorry it ruined the character for you and possibly the series, but it wasn't a total failure for every person who watched it.  You may disagree, but I don't think you have any right to totally dismiss the scene and anyone who thought it worked outside of your purely personal perspective.  For those who read the books and/or know history, it can mean one thing, for those who are lacking either or both of those traits, it can mean something different.  Either way, the view you walk away with isn't necessarily "right" or "wrong" and doesn't deserve trashing and mockery for disagreement.  That is not the way of this board though, and especially of certain posters herein, so unfortunately such choices are not open to us.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2011, 04:04:56 PM
Not that it makes any sense to argue, since this "debate" is being continued, and will be continued until Season 5, for argument's sake, but I have drawn two conclusions from the scene:
-it would have read awful in the book
-the way the actor acted through this scene, served all the purpose the act was supposed to serve: it established Tywin as a guy who scorns and pwns the biggest badass the viewers saw until that point, like it was casual conversation. It gave a sense of Tywin's ambitions and point of view (family power above all considerations). And so on and so forth.

It is not the greatest scene of the series but fits in perfectly with the rest.

The skinning doesn't mean jackshit in a literal sense. Don't even let me start on the people here filling pages rambling about the historical and contextual validity of a noble skinning a deer, while they fly right past stuff like, a several millenia old civilization being pre-gunpowder while being able to build a huge-ass fuckin' wall of ice, and other stuff you put up with because its a great story.

You know what? If the skinning put Tywin out of place for a normal noble as you say, then all the better. When he appeared in the books, Martin did a great job of shoving it in your face how he is not your ordinary Ned Start or Jaime Lannister, or whatever nobleman. He is a class of his own. But you can't translate the text to pictures and expect the same result.
This is TV. You do stuff differently in different mediums.

So just shut the fuck up about it already its getting boring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 04:09:41 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:02:55 PM
Skinning a deer is gross in my opinion.  This is coming from someone whose father and uncles hunted deer and would on occasion hang them to bleed out in view.  It is especially gross to my mental processing when done in a very brutal, efficient manner.  In my opinion, the scene worked to translate Tywin as a brutal, efficient, commanding figure.  Were there other ways to establish that?  Sure.  Did this one work for me personally and some friends of mine who saw it?  Yes.  Sorry it ruined the character for you and possibly the series, but it wasn't a total failure for every person who watched it.  You may disagree, but I don't think you have any right to totally dismiss the scene and anyone who thought it worked outside of your purely personal perspective.  For those who read the books and/or know history, it can mean one thing, for those who are lacking either or both of those traits, it can mean something different.  Either way, the view you walk away with isn't necessarily "right" or "wrong" and doesn't deserve trashing and mockery for disagreement.  That is not the way of this board though, and especially of certain posters herein, so unfortunately such choices are not open to us.

Very well put.

I think Minsky and BA summarized my position on this issue quite well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2011, 04:26:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 07, 2011, 02:27:30 PM
The dialogue for one.  He is dressing down his son for the way he dealt with Tyrion's capture and his confrontation with Stark over the issue.   Perhaps if it had been a wolf or a Fish.

Also, his grandson is the heir.  At this point why is there any imagary necessary of how he is going to deal with the Baratheons since that would mean gutting and skinning his own blood. You would have to know what happens to the heir for that scene to make any sense from the Marti perspective.
I didn't mean that Tywin himself was setting up the image, I meant the writers were engaging in some foreshadowing.  Tywin doesn't need to know a thing to be the pawn in some foreshadowing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:31:21 PM
On a different note, anyone else liked the CGI of Robb spamming the North with ravens? I thought it was kinda cool.

Also, Catelyn seems Jewish. No other mother would do the "If you fail, we will all die. But, no pressure" routine so convincingly. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

Was she attractive in the books? I think the actress is doing the right job of portraying her as this intense, focused, "family above all else" momma bear (or fish, or wolf, well you get the picture).

Lysa is also not well cast in terms of appearance (the Lysa in books was fat) but just projects the right amount of crazy.

Renly is also not cast for his looks, but does his job well.

I think Lannisters are probably the only ones flawlessly cast, appearance-wise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 04:38:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:31:21 PM
On a different note, anyone else liked the CGI of Robb spamming the North with ravens? I thought it was kinda cool.


It was a great scene. Glover gave just a tiny hint of a satisfied smile before replying "all of them, my lord?" Just a tiny twitch of the muscles. The man has an impressive command.

Most of the acting in this show has been very good, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2011, 04:40:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

Was she attractive in the books? I think the actress is doing the right job of portraying her as this intense, focused, "family above all else" momma bear (or fish, or wolf, well you get the picture).

I think that in the books she's characterized as an aged beauty, homely but most of all motherly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:42:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 07, 2011, 04:40:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

Was she attractive in the books? I think the actress is doing the right job of portraying her as this intense, focused, "family above all else" momma bear (or fish, or wolf, well you get the picture).

I think that in the books she's characterized as an aged beauty, homely but most of all motherly.

True, that being said don't we only see her through the eyes of her husband and children?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 07, 2011, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

Was she attractive in the books? I think the actress is doing the right job of portraying her as this intense, focused, "family above all else" momma bear (or fish, or wolf, well you get the picture).

Lysa is also not well cast in terms of appearance (the Lysa in books was fat) but just projects the right amount of crazy.

Renly is also not cast for his looks, but does his job well.

I think Lannisters are probably the only ones flawlessly cast, appearance-wise.
Pretty sure she was described as rather attractive on more than one occasion.  I agree with Lyssa, but her craziness trumps all, and that actress has it down rather well.  Renly also doesn't quite fit.  He isn't awful, but I was expecting someone that more resembled Robert facially, if not physically.  The Lannisters have been remarkably well cast.  My one big disappointment so far?  That there isn't a Mormont shirt available on HBO's website.  They have a lot of the families there, and more showing up, but still no Mormont. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:44:09 PM
Also, is it me or does Bronn get the best one-liners?

"You didn't fight with honor!" "Yes. He did" and "And Bronn, son of..." "You wouldn't know him" must be some of the best lines in the show so far. :P

The first one was in the books but don't remember the second.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:45:35 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

Was she attractive in the books? I think the actress is doing the right job of portraying her as this intense, focused, "family above all else" momma bear (or fish, or wolf, well you get the picture).

Lysa is also not well cast in terms of appearance (the Lysa in books was fat) but just projects the right amount of crazy.

Renly is also not cast for his looks, but does his job well.

I think Lannisters are probably the only ones flawlessly cast, appearance-wise.
Pretty sure she was described as rather attractive on more than one occasion.  I agree with Lyssa, but her craziness trumps all, and that actress has it down rather well.  Renly also doesn't quite fit.  He isn't awful, but I was expecting someone that more resembled Robert facially, if not physically.  The Lannisters have been remarkably well cast.  My one big disappointment so far?  That there isn't a Mormont shirt available on HBO's website.  They have a lot of the families there, and more showing up, but still no Mormont. :(

I am not sure he does not resemble Robert. We kinda never find out how Robert would look like if he wasn't fat, aging and balding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 07, 2011, 04:48:03 PM
I suppose so.  I can;t see either a thin Robert or Renly currently wielding a massive warhammer as described though.  Both actors seem too small of frame and stature.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:48:10 PM
"Young Robert" (Mark Addy):

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.guardian.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FFilm%2FClose_Up%2FPlayers%2F1999%2F02%2F15%2Faddy.jpg&hash=b4cd394477217a459c7ff7a56f390486811ce212)

"Beardless Renly" (Gethin Anthony)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.primaveraproductions.com%2Fuploads%2Fheadshots%2Fcast220gethin_anthon.jpg&hash=2537b934f14208320a4a3d239a7a8b150be17278)

Hmm, not sure, do they look alike?

Mark Addy kinda looks like Slargos.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 07, 2011, 04:49:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

I first heard that Peter Dinklage, Sean Bean and Lena Heady were cast. I though they would make great Tyrion, Ned and Catelyn respectively. I always felt that the Heady of Sarah Connor Chronicles might be in danger of being typecast as the pseudo-psycho überprotective mother. I thought she was just so obviously Catelyn not Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 07, 2011, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:48:10 PM
"Young Robert" (Mark Addy):

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.guardian.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FFilm%2FClose_Up%2FPlayers%2F1999%2F02%2F15%2Faddy.jpg&hash=b4cd394477217a459c7ff7a56f390486811ce212)

"Beardless Renly" (Gethin Anthony)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.primaveraproductions.com%2Fuploads%2Fheadshots%2Fcast220gethin_anthon.jpg&hash=2537b934f14208320a4a3d239a7a8b150be17278)

Hmm, not sure, do they look alike?

Mark Addy kinda looks like Slargos.  :hmm:

:lol:

I was going to protest, but now that I look a bit closer, I can sortof see it.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 07, 2011, 05:14:13 PM
Yeah, knock a bit of fat off Addy (given Robert hasn't always been a chodder that is fair enough) and there's a decent resemblance.
There's certainly been much worse on TV.

QuoteRobb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.
She reminds me of a certain...unattractive and specialist porn star.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 07, 2011, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 07, 2011, 05:14:13 PM
She reminds me of a certain...unattractive and specialist porn star.
...?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2011, 05:35:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:42:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 07, 2011, 04:40:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

Was she attractive in the books? I think the actress is doing the right job of portraying her as this intense, focused, "family above all else" momma bear (or fish, or wolf, well you get the picture).

I think that in the books she's characterized as an aged beauty, homely but most of all motherly.

True, that being said don't we only see her through the eyes of her husband and children?

And her own.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2011, 05:37:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 07, 2011, 04:49:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

I first heard that Peter Dinklage, Sean Bean and Lena Heady were cast. I though they would make great Tyrion, Ned and Catelyn respectively. I always felt that the Heady of Sarah Connor Chronicles might be in danger of being typecast as the pseudo-psycho überprotective mother. I thought she was just so obviously Catelyn not Cersei.

Well, Cersei is also a pseudo-psycho überprotective mother, so...  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 07, 2011, 06:01:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 07, 2011, 05:37:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 07, 2011, 04:49:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 07, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
Robb's raven mail account got hacked!  He should have never listened to that former Targaryen official who promised him a large sum of gold for only a small investment...



Catelyn is my least favorite casting choice.  She seems.... just not attractive enough.  She's a good enough actress, just not what I imagined physically.

I first heard that Peter Dinklage, Sean Bean and Lena Heady were cast. I though they would make great Tyrion, Ned and Catelyn respectively. I always felt that the Heady of Sarah Connor Chronicles might be in danger of being typecast as the pseudo-psycho überprotective mother. I thought she was just so obviously Catelyn not Cersei.

Well, Cersei is also a pseudo-psycho überprotective mother, so...  :P

full psycho.. besides, my inner eye has cersei as voluptuous.

jenna jameson looks
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 07, 2011, 06:39:30 PM
Ratings high. :)
http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/06/07/game-of-thrones-ratings/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 07:09:27 PM
I very much like the actor playing Tywin, and his portrayal in general, when he is not busy being a skinner. Leave that to the Boltons.

I think both Catelyn and Cersei are fine. In the books, Catelyn is portrayed as very attractive - but then, it is easy to write a character that is old enough to have 5 kids, one of whom is a young man, and who is still very attractive. A little harder to find an actual actress of that age, who can actually act, and is also very attractive. I am pleased that of all those traits, those doing the casting worried the least about finding someone "hott" and instead worried about finding an actress with the right gravitas. Same with Cersei, although obviously Cersei's beauty is more integral to her character than Catelyn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 07, 2011, 07:11:01 PM
It's too bad Joanne Wallie-Kilmer was tied up playing the hott MILF in The Borgias.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 07:19:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2011, 04:00:43 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.

Yeah, I think this is a fair point. Also, for some reason (which, in light of your explanation, is not that entirely clear), there is this overwhelming feeling in the fandom that Tywin is a real "badass". I think the scene was meant to convey it.

Uggh, but that is the thing that bugs the shit out of me!

How is him skinning a deer make him about to be a "badass"? His dialogue with Jaime  - sure - but on the other hand, it is not surprising that Jaime, no matter how badass, is still cowed by his father. The dialogue of the scene worked very well, IMO.

I just do not understand how his skinning a deer is supposed to send the message "OMG, he is so badass!"

I know we've argued this well beyond any kind of actual interest, but I really think you are simply taking the message you know you are supposed to get and superimposing it on the scene. You know Tywin is a badass, you know that they want you to take that as a conclusion, therefore you assume that his skinning a dear sends the message.

My point with my wife is that as someone who does NOT know what the expected message is supposed to be, she was completely mystified at the point of the deer. Her response to the scene was "Why is he skinning that deer?" And I think her response makes sense, because the scene itself makes no real sense. If anything, the deer distracts from the power of the dialogue, since it makes viewers like her think about what this deer means, and she missed the power of the dialogue.

Tywin can skin a deer/Tywin likes to skins deers != Tywin is a badass. It simply does not add up. It is "awkward", and pretty much fails at what it intends to do.

I think the scene with the making out whores suffers from the same problem. Here we have this monologue from Littlefinger that is clearly trying to give us some background, and you are mostly distracted by this chick finger banging another chick, and to top it off you have the disconnect of Littlefinger pouring his heart out to a couple whores in a brothel? Huh?

I think both scenes are basically failures. They both have this visual distraction from the point of the scene, one over the top visually gross, the other over the top visually titilating, and neither really works with the dialogue they serve as the background for...

This is in contrast to say the conversation with Cersei and Robert, where the exposition works, and the viewer is focused on what the characters are saying, rather than what they are doing. Honestly, I think the viewing audience is in fact mature enough that they don't need visual stimulation in order to pay attention to what is being said. But on the other hand, this is HBO. And they do love their visual candy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2011, 02:36:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2011, 07:09:27 PMI think both Catelyn and Cersei are fine. In the books, Catelyn is portrayed as very attractive - but then, it is easy to write a character that is old enough to have 5 kids, one of whom is a young man, and who is still very attractive. A little harder to find an actual actress of that age, who can actually act, and is also very attractive. I am pleased that of all those traits, those doing the casting worried the least about finding someone "hott" and instead worried about finding an actress with the right gravitas. Same with Cersei, although obviously Cersei's beauty is more integral to her character than Catelyn.

Catelyn and Cersei are also an interesting contrast in how they see themselves and the image they project. Theoretically in the books they are two women of roughly the same age and social standing, daughters of great Lords married politically to men that would become great Lords themselves. Catelyn had 5 children and Cersei had 3 and several abortions, which would put their bodies through quite some wear and tear, yet Catelyn has embraced a more matronly demeanour, even if she retains a part of her youthful beauty while Cersei still clings to her looks and sensuality and, even if a mother of three, seems to reject the "matron" aspect of her role in the society of the time. Also with Cersei this aspect of her personality gets exacerbated with the profecy that a younger Queen would replace her and her own physical aging and increasing decadence, as seen in Feast (how she flips out when her dresses start getting too tight for her, for instance).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:08:35 AM
I think Cersei is rather weak compared to the otherwise excellent cast.
Looks aside, I think -or might be imagining- that the actress not having read the books shows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:21:22 AM
I think Cersei is perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:23:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:21:22 AM
I think Cersei is perfect.

Yes but you are gay so you can have no idea
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2011, 03:31:05 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:23:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:21:22 AM
I think Cersei is perfect.

Yes but you are gay so you can have no idea

I'm not and I also think she's great. What's the problem with her, that she is not a top model beauty (or pornstar, fi you're Viking)?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:37:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 08, 2011, 03:31:05 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:23:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:21:22 AM
I think Cersei is perfect.

Yes but you are gay so you can have no idea

I'm not and I also think she's great. What's the problem with her, that she is not a top model beauty (or pornstar, fi you're Viking)?

She is pretty far from the überhottness which was attributed to her in the books, not just by actual looks which wouldn't be that bad, but the character comes through as a frigid piece of rock. Which Cersei definetly was not. She fucked her cusin to pass the time ffs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2011, 03:43:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:37:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 08, 2011, 03:31:05 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:23:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:21:22 AM
I think Cersei is perfect.

Yes but you are gay so you can have no idea

I'm not and I also think she's great. What's the problem with her, that she is not a top model beauty (or pornstar, fi you're Viking)?

She is pretty far from the überhottness which was attributed to her in the books, not just by actual looks which wouldn't be that bad, but the character comes through as a frigid piece of rock. Which Cersei definetly was not. She fucked her cusin to pass the time ffs.

Book Cersei also came across as pretty frigid in public, and only opened up, figuratively and literally in private and with the people she trusted. Lancel will become her object of desire  next season, I guess. As for the hotness I think that Headey is pretty hot and fills the part well in that sense and in the given context. Eye of the beholder and all that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:49:06 AM
Yeah, it's retarded how nerds rage about a mother of three living in a medieval world is not as hot as a super model. Fucking tards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 03:57:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2011, 03:49:06 AM
Yeah, it's retarded how nerds rage about a mother of three living in a medieval world is not as hot as a super model. Fucking tards.

If you have not claimed that you read the books, I would answer you.

Now I am just reminded how it is a total waste of time to try and have even the most remotely reasonable discussion with you over anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 06:29:40 AM
I think Tamas has a point - show Cersei does not really exude sexual attractiveness in the manner you got the impression of her in the books.

On the other hand, I think the casting is fine - more than fine in fact, it is excellent. Martin has a bit of the nerd-geek goofy view of his heroic women. They are all pretty much either ridiculously sexual and gorgeous in some fashion or another, or plain and ugly. That is to some extent fine in a book, since your characters can all be whatever you want them to be, but a bit harder to find actual humans who can meet that standard. And, on top of that, actually act.

This applies to his male characters as well, of course. The mountain is 7 feet tall, Dhrogo is this perfect specimen of a man, Jaime is this amazing awordsman, AND incredibly handsome, Renly is the pretty Baratheon, Loras is the most gorgeous man in the world, etc. etc. They are all somewhat caricatures.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2011, 06:49:48 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 06:29:40 AM
I think Tamas has a point - show Cersei does not really exude sexual attractiveness in the manner you got the impression of her in the books.

On the other hand, I think the casting is fine - more than fine in fact, it is excellent. Martin has a bit of the nerd-geek goofy view of his heroic women. They are all pretty much either ridiculously sexual and gorgeous in some fashion or another, or plain and ugly. That is to some extent fine in a book, since your characters can all be whatever you want them to be, but a bit harder to find actual humans who can meet that standard. And, on top of that, actually act.

This applies to his male characters as well, of course. The mountain is 7 feet tall, Dhrogo is this perfect specimen of a man, Jaime is this amazing awordsman, AND incredibly handsome, Renly is the pretty Baratheon, Loras is the most gorgeous man in the world, etc. etc. They are all somewhat caricatures.

good point
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 08, 2011, 07:27:26 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 06:29:40 AM
I think Tamas has a point - show Cersei does not really exude sexual attractiveness in the manner you got the impression of her in the books.

On the other hand, I think the casting is fine - more than fine in fact, it is excellent. Martin has a bit of the nerd-geek goofy view of his heroic women. They are all pretty much either ridiculously sexual and gorgeous in some fashion or another, or plain and ugly. That is to some extent fine in a book, since your characters can all be whatever you want them to be, but a bit harder to find actual humans who can meet that standard. And, on top of that, actually act.

This applies to his male characters as well, of course. The mountain is 7 feet tall, Dhrogo is this perfect specimen of a man, Jaime is this amazing awordsman, AND incredibly handsome, Renly is the pretty Baratheon, Loras is the most gorgeous man in the world, etc. etc. They are all somewhat caricatures.
I agree, and think that this was especially true early on.  Martin didn't switch from painting in primary colors to primary colors and pastels until maybe the third book.

Authors need some time to get to know their characters, as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 08, 2011, 07:50:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 06:29:40 AM
I think Tamas has a point - show Cersei does not really exude sexual attractiveness in the manner you got the impression of her in the books.

On the other hand, I think the casting is fine - more than fine in fact, it is excellent. Martin has a bit of the nerd-geek goofy view of his heroic women. They are all pretty much either ridiculously sexual and gorgeous in some fashion or another, or plain and ugly. That is to some extent fine in a book, since your characters can all be whatever you want them to be, but a bit harder to find actual humans who can meet that standard. And, on top of that, actually act.

This applies to his male characters as well, of course. The mountain is 7 feet tall, Dhrogo is this perfect specimen of a man, Jaime is this amazing awordsman, AND incredibly handsome, Renly is the pretty Baratheon, Loras is the most gorgeous man in the world, etc. etc. They are all somewhat caricatures.

Yup, Martin does love his characters with extremely exagerated features. Just think of all the characters who are exceedingly tall and strong: Both Cleganes (with Gregor being given a ridiculous 7 and a half feet tall height, or something like that), Robert himself (in the books he's described as hulking in his youth), Hodor, all the Umbers, Belwas the strong, the twin guards of Olenna Tyrell, etc, etc. Tyrion by contrast is a dwarf, also super smart, cunning and charismatic. Then you have the Targaryens and their otherwordly beauty, platinum hair and violet eyes. The super precocious wonderkids, all of them accomplished in some field or the other before turning 20. At the same time there are bunch of methuselahs like Maester Aemon, Lord Frey, Lord Tully still hanging around, despite theoretical middle ages standards of healthcare. The grotesque fatness of Illyrio Mopatys, the Manderlys, Belwas, etc. Maester Pycelle and his magnificent white beard. And so on, and so forth.

In a book is easy to fill a character's description with superlatives, but as you say that can't be fully translated into a real person who has to be beliveable portraying a character, so all the hyperbolic traits are toned down into something achievable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 08, 2011, 07:58:13 AM
I just want to say I loved episode 8.  It is amazing how compelling a series on a book I have read twice can be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 08:53:08 AM
You know, everyone would have been better off if the Hound had just let his brother kill Loras.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 08, 2011, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 08:53:08 AM
You know, everyone would have been better off if the Hound had just let his brother kill Loras.
How would Loras have been "better off?"




:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 08:56:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 08, 2011, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 08:53:08 AM
You know, everyone would have been better off if the Hound had just let his brother kill Loras.
How would Loras have been "better off?"




:P

OK, ALMOST everyone!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 08, 2011, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 08, 2011, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2011, 08:53:08 AM
You know, everyone would have been better off if the Hound had just let his brother kill Loras.
How would Loras have been "better off?"




:P

He wouldn't have had Marty fantasize about him.  Also, he wouldn't have had boiling oil dropped on him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 09, 2011, 10:59:43 AM
NSFW LOL:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmcsifRxH41qjipi2o1_500.gif
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 11, 2011, 04:04:45 AM
A song about Theon Greyjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgOm_WJKpE

:lol:

They should so cast her as Asha. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
Is the actor's name Alfie Allen? Otherwise, I don't get it. Boring song too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 11, 2011, 04:33:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
Is the actor's name Alfie Allen? Otherwise, I don't get it. Boring song too.
Yes, it's her little brother.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2011, 04:36:19 AM
Oh,yeah about Lilly and Alfie

'I will not make another record,' declares Lily Allen as she quits music for acting (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1215725/Lily-Allen-declares-quitting-music-career-acting.html), from the daily mail... oh, yeah, and the best line in the article is....

QuoteLast night, however, there were no signs of her relishing her new freedom. She looked subdued as she left London restaurant Quo Vadis  with her boyfriend, brother Alfie and his girlfriend Jaime

Oh, yes, it is Martinus' deepest darkest fantasy, Theon is fucking Jaime.

Edit: To be honest, she does look like my mental image of asha

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3084%2F3115704282_1b0c5dfcb7.jpg&hash=823b3ca79912e4b56d88b1e3101c1ea810fda5e9)(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc05.deviantart.net%2Ffs34%2Ff%2F2008%2F307%2F6%2Fe%2FAsha_Greyjoy___Experiment_2_by_Lauren_Oh.jpg&hash=8753d1c4a68a76576435fc95e59b44a4fbf8f4ba)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 11, 2011, 04:53:23 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
Is the actor's name Alfie Allen? Otherwise, I don't get it. Boring song too.

Not just the actor's name is Alfie Allen, but he's THE Alfie Allen the song is about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2011, 04:55:20 AM
I just wonder if Lilly and Alfie have any relatives that can act since the allen genetics seem to project the Greyjoy crazyness without having to act the crazyness. We still need a mad Victorian a madder Aeron and a madder still Euron, not to mention Balon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 11, 2011, 05:03:31 AM
This TV show skinned the deer a long time ago IMHO. Time to move on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2011, 05:11:46 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 11, 2011, 05:03:31 AM
This TV show skinned the deer a long time ago IMHO. Time to move on.

It wasn't a deer, it was a Stag.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 11, 2011, 07:13:10 AM
The Greyjoys never seemed too crazy to me...well except the obvious one.

I saw this link:
http://www.tv.com/game-of-thrones-how-much-is-the-show-departing-from-the-book/story/25950.html
and...yeah.
Something I've thought of myself is pointed out there.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.com.com%2Ftv%2Fimages%2Fgenie_images%2Fstory%2F2011_usa%2Fg%2Fgameofthrones_tyrionvsbook.jpg&hash=fbcfcf084090055774c3b0120ca596fe286062cb)

Sure. He gets worse after Blackwater, but still, Tyrion is meant to be ugly. TV show Tyrion seems quite OK looking though except for the dwarfism.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 11, 2011, 08:16:35 AM
If we must put up with current Cersei because she can act (altough she is not taking this role too seriously), sure as hell must put up with current Tyrion (who is excellent I think), despite not having a fugly face. The pool of fugly-faced dwarfs who can act well must be very thin
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2011, 09:35:43 AM
I'm sure Dinklage is capable of wearing masks and makeup as well. However, do we really need to see that image on the left?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 11, 2011, 09:38:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2011, 09:35:43 AM
I'm sure Dinklage is capable of wearing masks and makeup as well. However, do we really need to see that image on the left?
My point is even pre-Blackwater he's meant to be ugly. Dinklage looks pretty normal. Not so unbelievable he could get a girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 11, 2011, 09:45:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 11, 2011, 09:38:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2011, 09:35:43 AM
I'm sure Dinklage is capable of wearing masks and makeup as well. However, do we really need to see that image on the left?
My point is even pre-Blackwater he's meant to be ugly. Dinklage looks pretty normal. Not so unbelievable he could get a girl.
Dwarf = Hideous in most societies throughout history. It doesn't matter what his face looks like.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on June 11, 2011, 10:09:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2011, 04:55:20 AM
I just wonder if Lilly and Alfie have any relatives that can act since the allen genetics seem to project the Greyjoy crazyness without having to act the crazyness. We still need a mad Victorian a madder Aeron and a madder still Euron, not to mention Balon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Allen_(actor) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Allen_(actor))
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 11, 2011, 10:11:58 AM
Quote from: Sahib on June 11, 2011, 10:09:46 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2011, 04:55:20 AM
I just wonder if Lilly and Alfie have any relatives that can act since the allen genetics seem to project the Greyjoy crazyness without having to act the crazyness. We still need a mad Victorian a madder Aeron and a madder still Euron, not to mention Balon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Allen_(actor) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Allen_(actor))

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.5pm.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F06%2Fkeith-allen.jpg&hash=7bea9752deec444cde958453820f581effb5ebc6)

I think he can pull Balon alright.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 11, 2011, 10:15:28 AM
OMG.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2011, 10:16:49 AM
holy fucking shit... random shit I pull out of my ass is making sense....

does he have any brothers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2011, 10:20:50 AM
Keith Allen's younger brother Kevin

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.allstarpics.net%2Fimages%2Forig%2Fj%2Fv%2Fjv57k19o26npn69.jpg&hash=65fa9c27f380b90339c1f97c7c967ddebc964341)

Euron, Aeron or Victarion?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 11, 2011, 10:24:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 11, 2011, 07:13:10 AM
The Greyjoys never seemed too crazy to me...well except the obvious one.

I saw this link:
http://www.tv.com/game-of-thrones-how-much-is-the-show-departing-from-the-book/story/25950.html
and...yeah.
Something I've thought of myself is pointed out there.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.com.com%2Ftv%2Fimages%2Fgenie_images%2Fstory%2F2011_usa%2Fg%2Fgameofthrones_tyrionvsbook.jpg&hash=fbcfcf084090055774c3b0120ca596fe286062cb)

Sure. He gets worse after Blackwater, but still, Tyrion is meant to be ugly. TV show Tyrion seems quite OK looking though except for the dwarfism.

I thought he lost his nose in a battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 11, 2011, 01:18:39 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2011, 10:20:50 AM
Keith Allen's younger brother Kevin

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.allstarpics.net%2Fimages%2Forig%2Fj%2Fv%2Fjv57k19o26npn69.jpg&hash=65fa9c27f380b90339c1f97c7c967ddebc964341)

Euron, Aeron or Victarion?

With an eyepatch and other piratey features he could be Euron.

As for casting of Tyrion - I suspect even most modern viewers wouldn't be interested in watching an actor who looked like the book Tyrion, much less identifying with him as one of the protagonists. Remember, never go full retard (extremely ugly people are not the same as retards, but the point is similar).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2011, 08:34:45 AM
Seriously, you could complain about a lot of things, casting-wise, but people complaining about Dinklage being cast as Tyrion because he is not "ugly enough" - Jesus, that just makes me want to go on a killing rampage. I guess fucking tards will always find a reason to complain about something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 12, 2011, 09:07:38 AM
We've already learned that medieval standards of aesthetics are not the same as they are today.

Dinklage, being a dwarf, would naturally be considered the ugliest person in the world at that time. They didn't have makeup, nor proper nutrition.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2011, 09:08:58 AM
I think Dinklage probably enjoys this if he is lurking, "why is Dinklage not suitable for the part as Tyrion? He is too good looking."  :nelson:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 12, 2011, 09:14:50 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2011, 09:08:58 AM
I think Dinklage probably enjoys this if he is lurking, "why is Dinklage not suitable for the part as Tyrion? He is too good looking."  :nelson:

Well, considering he's being compared to a guy who looks like he was slapped in the face daily with cheese graters in infancy, I think a burn victim will also qualify as "too good looking" and suddenly it doesn't really sound that good.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 12, 2011, 09:28:20 AM
Dinklage was an automatic. It's as if Martin wrote Tyrion with Dinklage in mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 12, 2011, 11:10:00 AM
QuoteSeriously, you could complain about a lot of things, casting-wise, but people complaining about Dinklage being cast as Tyrion because he is not "ugly enough" - Jesus, that just makes me want to go on a killing rampage. I guess fucking tards will always find a reason to complain about something.
There's no complaint there, its just saying its a change from the book.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 11, 2011, 10:24:20 AM
I thought he lost his nose in a battle.

He does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 12, 2011, 02:24:08 PM
They prettified the Hound, too.

And I doubt they'll bother to CGI the nose off Dinklage. He'll probably just get a not too intrusive scar or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 12, 2011, 02:56:21 PM
There's several noticeable differences casting wise from the book; but the biggest was the ages of Danearys and Sansa who are far younger in the book than they appear to be in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2011, 03:37:27 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 12, 2011, 02:56:21 PM
There's several noticeable differences casting wise from the book; but the biggest was the ages of Danearys and Sansa who are far younger in the book than they appear to be in the show.

I predict that Sansa will have sex in the next book...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 12, 2011, 03:53:11 PM
QuoteThere's several noticeable differences casting wise from the book; but the biggest was the ages of Danearys and Sansa who are far younger in the book than they appear to be in the show.
The guys have been aged up too.
Though, I must say on Sansa it turns out the actress playing her actually is 14. My first reaction was thinking she'd been aged up to, cue paedobear ringing my neck when I found out she's just a old looking 14 rather than an adult playing a teenager.

Quote from: Solmyr on June 12, 2011, 02:24:08 PM
They prettified the Hound, too.

And I doubt they'll bother to CGI the nose off Dinklage. He'll probably just get a not too intrusive scar or something.

Agreed, would be a pain to have to do week in week out for a main character.
Give him some big awful face scar instead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 12, 2011, 10:17:33 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 12, 2011, 02:56:21 PM
There's several noticeable differences casting wise from the book; but the biggest was the ages of Danearys and Sansa who are far younger in the book than they appear to be in the show.

I think they were all aged up pretty much the same.  Jon and Robb are supposed to be 15 or something but they both look like College age guys in the show.

But Martin always regretted making the kids too young so I think this casting is what ages he would use if he was going to do it again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 12, 2011, 11:01:16 PM
First casting example where my gut reaction was very negative: Shae. She looks way too old, not at all innocent looking, more like a seasoned pro than anything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 12, 2011, 11:17:15 PM
Yeah, I'm not really sure why they thought casting an 18 year-old character with a 30 year-old actress was a good idea.  Suppose we'll see later on if she has the chops for it or not...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 12, 2011, 11:22:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 12, 2011, 11:01:16 PM
First casting example where my gut reaction was very negative: Shae. She looks way too old, not at all innocent looking, more like a seasoned pro than anything else.
As for being a seasoned pro, the actress was n porn. So there ya go :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 13, 2011, 12:43:25 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 12, 2011, 11:17:15 PM
Yeah, I'm not really sure why they thought casting an 18 year-old character with a 30 year-old actress was a good idea.  Suppose we'll see later on if she has the chops for it or not...
She's been in porn, but she's also a great actress. She's been in a bunch of great Fatih Akin movies.

Oh.  And she is massively fucking hot. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 13, 2011, 12:51:16 AM
I don't mind the actress playing Shae.  Definitely should look younger, but as long as she can act, she's attractive enough.  The wolves got left out again.  *sigh*  I'm intrigued by the implication that Ned saw Arya and alerted Yoren to her presence.  A deviation from the books, but an interesting turn.  Overall, another good episode.  I'm definitely excited for next week's episode, though a tad apprehensive of what they'll do with the dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 01:47:15 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 12, 2011, 02:56:21 PM
There's several noticeable differences casting wise from the book; but the biggest was the ages of Danearys and Sansa who are far younger in the book than they appear to be in the show.

Err, they are supposed to be older in the show. Most characters actually are.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 13, 2011, 02:42:39 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi36.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe13%2Fxraytheenforcer%2Fned_breakfast.png&hash=9de2e62ba8781b2def85941bf3db462f0d0a8339)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2011, 02:54:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 12, 2011, 11:01:16 PM
First casting example where my gut reaction was very negative: Shae. She looks way too old, not at all innocent looking, more like a seasoned pro than anything else.

Shae hasn't been cast afaik

Edit: she has, WTF?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 04:17:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM

:lol:

"Dey killed mah nigger ned maan"

He's going to love the Red Wedding.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 13, 2011, 04:25:12 AM
I don't understand the decisions to change shit that didn't need changing.

What was that about Shae threatening to cut his eyeballs out? How come Tyrion leaves out the part where's he's screwing Tysha and gives her a gold piece? Why is Tyrion knocked out before the battle?

We don't get a POV chapter of Ned when he's about to be executed, so the part about him informing Yoren was actually pretty cool. The stuff at the Wall and with Daenerys was also good. The Tyrion and Catelyn parts of the episode though... ugh. Walder Frey is too young by about 20 years.

I think they really should have done a flashback sequence with Ned and Lyanna. It's a recurring theme during the whole first book, the "promise me, Ned" thing, probably setting up Jon's origins. Now that Eddard is dead, the opportunity is gone, that's too bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 13, 2011, 04:28:01 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 04:17:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM

:lol:

"Dey killed mah nigger ned maan"

He's going to love the Red Wedding.  :ph34r:

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 13, 2011, 04:29:54 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 04:17:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM

:lol:

"Dey killed mah nigger ned maan"

He's going to love the Red Wedding.  :ph34r:

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 05:36:03 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 04:17:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM

:lol:

"Dey killed mah nigger ned maan"

He's going to love the Red Wedding.  :ph34r:
He's been doing 10-20 minute reviews for each episode and they've been amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/user/OtakuASSEMBLE
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:10:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 05:36:03 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 04:17:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM)

:lol:

"Dey killed mah nigger ned maan"

He's going to love the Red Wedding.  :ph34r:
He's been doing 10-20 minute reviews for each episode and they've been amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/user/OtakuASSEMBLE (http://www.youtube.com/user/OtakuASSEMBLE)

Oh I doubt that.

They're only interesting when they act out like at the zoo. I half expected him to start flinging feces about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:12:49 AM
Shut the fuck up and go crawl back into that ice encrusted hell hole you were spawned from. I'm fucking sick of you racist bullshit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 13, 2011, 06:13:02 AM
"Otaku" sounds suspiciously like some Japanophile shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:20:07 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:12:49 AM
Shut the fuck up and go crawl back into that ice encrusted hell hole you were spawned from. I'm fucking sick of you racist bullshit.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:25:49 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 13, 2011, 06:13:02 AM
"Otaku" sounds suspiciously like some Japanophile shit.
It's a Japanese word
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
Robb and his men went to war against Tywin and his men and... Robb used.. a very clever farce.

Yeah, I can see why you'd like this guy, Timmay.  :D

Man, maybe if he stopped hitting the pipe so hard, he wouldn't sound like a retard s'much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:54:33 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
Robb and his men went to war against Tywin and his men and... Robb used.. a very clever farce.

Yeah, I can see why you'd like this guy, Timmay.  :D

Man, maybe if he stopped hitting the pipe so hard, he wouldn't sound like a retard s'much.
Amazing in a hilarious way. He's the perfect example of the average joe who's never read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:54:33 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
Robb and his men went to war against Tywin and his men and... Robb used.. a very clever farce.

Yeah, I can see why you'd like this guy, Timmay.  :D

Man, maybe if he stopped hitting the pipe so hard, he wouldn't sound like a retard s'much.
Amazing in a hilarious way. He's the perfect example of the average joe who's never read the books.

Well. If he is a perfect example of the average joe I fear for the future of the Americas.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 07:12:09 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:54:33 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
Robb and his men went to war against Tywin and his men and... Robb used.. a very clever farce.

Yeah, I can see why you'd like this guy, Timmay.  :D

Man, maybe if he stopped hitting the pipe so hard, he wouldn't sound like a retard s'much.
Amazing in a hilarious way. He's the perfect example of the average joe who's never read the books.

Well. If he is a perfect example of the average joe I fear for the future of the Americas.  :D

:contract:
Quote from: George Carlin
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 13, 2011, 07:21:56 AM
The battle with Tyrion, or lack of it, was disappointing. So, he never fought? That's the implication given in the show. And yeah, where was the wolf riding with Robb?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 13, 2011, 07:23:54 AM
Oh...and one other thing, and this may have been discussed already. Anyone notice that the opening title sequence is not always the same?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 07:28:41 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 13, 2011, 07:23:54 AM
Oh...and one other thing, and this may have been discussed already. Anyone notice that the opening title sequence is not always the same?

Yes. There is 4 of them. It shows the different area we'll visit in that episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 13, 2011, 08:16:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:20:07 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:12:49 AM
Shut the fuck up and go crawl back into that ice encrusted hell hole you were spawned from. I'm fucking sick of you racist bullshit.

:lol:

Slarg, I place you under my wing. I'll protect you from the Timmay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 13, 2011, 08:38:19 AM
I wonder if the death of Ned has the same impact to the show audience that it does to the reading audience.

It doesn't seem like Ned has the same primacy of position in the shows that he does in the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 13, 2011, 08:41:31 AM
Take a look at the shitstorm that is going on IMDB...

And people are going to be even more freaked when Drogo *also* dies next episode (since in this one there's some hope that he might make it).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zeus on June 13, 2011, 08:41:36 AM
Ned was, in my opinion, a bit stupid. Honorable, yes, and quite noble, but stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 13, 2011, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 13, 2011, 08:41:31 AM
Take a look at the shitstorm that is going on IMDB...

And people are going to be even more freaked when Drogo *also* dies next episode (since in this one there's some hope that he might make it).

LOL...Like this one:

I am so pissed off! Sean Bean is the reason why I started watching this show! How can you take such a experienced and great actor and kill his character?!!! I wanted the story line to end with him being King. Sean Bean brought this series strength. STUPID MOVIE, HBO!!! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 08:57:06 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 13, 2011, 08:38:19 AM
I wonder if the death of Ned has the same impact to the show audience that it does to the reading audience.

It doesn't seem like Ned has the same primacy of position in the shows that he does in the book.

On the contrary. The mooncricket is not terribly eloquent, but he did touch on several key aspects of Sean Bean in GoT:

- He's the currently "biggest" actor on the cast. The only A-list, really.
- He's been featured very prominently in much (most?) of the advertizing.
- He's been shown in a way during the episodes as to mark him (and the Starks) as the "main" protagonists of the show.

I think, additionally, that it's probably easier for a person watching the show to identify emotionally with a character than it is for a reader.

Was the execution a big shock for readers? Certainly.

Was it any less so for viewers? I don't think so. I would wager most people following the show who hadn't already been spoiled, "knew" that some plot device would be pulled out that would get Bean out of the Dungeon and back in the saddle, killing Lannister dogs. It's the way this story is Supposed to go, after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 13, 2011, 09:25:18 AM
Hehe, cool, because the death of Ned is really awesome - I am glad the viewers can "enjoy" it as much as I did.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 13, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
Winter is coming.
But is it coming only to Starkland or all of the kingdoms?  What about the eastern continent, will they be affected by winter too?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 13, 2011, 09:55:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 13, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
Winter is coming.
But is it coming only to Starkland or all of the kingdoms?

The second one.

QuoteWhat about the eastern continent, will they be affected by winter too?

Don't know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:01:23 AM
I knew that Neddy was going to die & now that it's done I wonder who will carry the show. It seems this will fall on Peter Dinklage or this show will die after 2 seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 08:57:06 AM
- He's the currently "biggest" actor on the cast. The only A-list, really.
That's the fucking point. When shows like this take on a big screen name, they usually do so for a character that is not going to be a major recurring one, for obvious reasons (not just costs, mind you - Sean Bean said in a number of interviews that he would not have accepted the role if he had to commit for more than one season, due to other commitments).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:01:23 AM
I knew that Neddy was going to die & now that it's done I wonder who will carry the show. It seems this will fall on Peter Dinklage or this show will die after 2 seasons.

Like in the books, it will be carried by the Lannister siblings, Jon Snow and Danny.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2011, 10:06:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:01:23 AM
I knew that Neddy was going to die & now that it's done I wonder who will carry the show. It seems this will fall on Peter Dinklage or this show will die after 2 seasons.

AGOT - Ned is good guy protagonist
COK - Robb/Dany/Jon is good guy protagonist
SOS - Robb/Dany/Jon is good guy protagonist
FFC/DWD - it all gets very complicated...

If anything, Sean Bean is setting it up by getting us involved with the help of Star Power and then letting to story take over. Like Drew Barrymore in Scream.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 10:06:36 AM
For the record, while I think Sean Bean was pretty well cast and I enjoyed his performance, the character of Ned (both in the books and as delivered on screen) is pretty bland and definitely not the "main lead" for the show, imo. He may have been positioned by the author to be in the centre of attention for a while, but I wouldn't call him someone who "carried" the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 13, 2011, 10:07:52 AM
Bean as Ned is great. Everyone just assumes he's the star, the main character, therefore nothing bad will ever happen to him....
My dad is expecting Robb's army to smash down the doors of the palace, rescue Ned and then Ned will have a rematch with Jamie and kick his arse.

I watch GoT on UK TV so have to wait until tonight to see it. Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2011, 10:11:58 AM
Plot Armor FTL.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 10:06:36 AM
For the record, while I think Sean Bean was pretty well cast and I enjoyed his performance, the character of Ned (both in the books and as delivered on screen) is pretty bland and definitely not the "main lead" for the show, imo. He may have been positioned by the author to be in the centre of attention for a while, but I wouldn't call him someone who "carried" the story.

Oh I agree, Ned was a piss poor character but Boromir is god. Losing him early, AGAIN, hurts. Damn it.

It's going to be weird to start liking Jaime.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 13, 2011, 10:15:33 AM
Oh, one little touch I liked.

When Jory Mormont was fighting, he used his armor to win the fight. I liked that they made it clear that yeah, having a shitload of armor really is a lot better than not having a shitload of armor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 13, 2011, 10:18:45 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:01:23 AM
I knew that Neddy was going to die & now that it's done I wonder who will carry the show. It seems this will fall on Peter Dinklage or this show will die after 2 seasons.
The Imp for King!  Damn it, I love this little guy! :)
He could have been Robert's son, in a way :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 13, 2011, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 13, 2011, 10:18:45 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:01:23 AM
I knew that Neddy was going to die & now that it's done I wonder who will carry the show. It seems this will fall on Peter Dinklage or this show will die after 2 seasons.
The Imp for King!  Damn it, I love this little guy! :)
He could have been Robert's son, in a way :P


LOL, that really is a great point. Tempermenatlly he is very much like Robert, the difference being that Robert was always a hero, while Tyrion is always a "monster", and hence Robert became a unthinking sop, while Tyrion has no luxury of not staying sharp.

Maybe THAT is why Tywin hates him and Robert so much! Hmmm....I guess he down have the Lannister golden hair, so probably not Roberts child...:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 13, 2011, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 10:06:36 AM
For the record, while I think Sean Bean was pretty well cast and I enjoyed his performance, the character of Ned (both in the books and as delivered on screen) is pretty bland and definitely not the "main lead" for the show, imo. He may have been positioned by the author to be in the centre of attention for a while, but I wouldn't call him someone who "carried" the story.
I haven't read enough of the book to know that, but in the show's marketing, clearly, we were led to believe Sean Bean had a major role in the show, with all these images showing him sitting on the throne or elsewhere, sword in hand.

This might have pissed off people who followed the show only for Sean Bean, the same people who watched Transformers only for Megan Fox.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 13, 2011, 10:22:44 AM
Transformers would have been a much better movie if Megan Fox had her head cut off at some point though.

That would be fucking awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 13, 2011, 10:24:48 AM
They should have cut all the human's heads off in Transformers.  The freaking human characters were always the biggest drag.  I want to see giant robots not puny humans is that too much to ask?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2011, 10:27:25 AM
Had Megan Fox blown Starscream then the movie would have been worth watching.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 10:32:44 AM
The only thing that could've improved the Transformers movies would've been if Megan Fox personally came to my place and gave me a blow job WHILE WATCHING IT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2011, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 10:32:44 AM
The only thing that could've improved the Transformers movies would've been if Megan Fox personally came to my place and gave me a blow job INSTEAD OF WATCHING IT.

Fixed Ur Post for U.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 11:42:47 AM
I think that getting a blow job by any girl will make Transformers a much better movie. Or Any movie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 13, 2011, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 13, 2011, 10:14:48 AM
It's going to be weird to start liking Jaime.

Don't know if you will start liking him exactly.  Its not like all the things in the first book were just a dream sequence.  But his character should become more complex if the screenplay follows the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 13, 2011, 01:14:08 PM
Quote"Ned Stark changes everything. Sean Bean's remarkable performance last night made me understand what true honor is. Therefore, effective today I will resign my seat as Representative of New York's 9th Congressional District to take the black and join my Brothers at the northern Wall, where we will guard America against the evil of Canada's White Walkers. Thank you, and may the Gods bless America."
—    Rep. Anthony Weiner announces his resignation and plan to join the Night's Watch, June 13 2011

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2011, 02:00:38 PM
Oh btw, the Great Bear Mormont - another case of excellent casting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 13, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
Well....that was dissapointing.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 13, 2011, 04:11:43 PM
Here's an article on EW about the killing of Ned.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/06/12/game-of-thrones-death/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 13, 2011, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 13, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
  • A book point really but...why on Earth doesn't Ned shout 'I take it back, I lied. Stannis is the king.' or the like there at the end?
Ned doesn't take it back because he only "confessed" to save his daughters.  To recant after the change to his fate would serve even less of a purpose.  Now he would be a liar, an oath breaker, a traitor, and his daughters would be dead as well probably.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 05:34:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 13, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
Well....that was dissapointing.
  • No battle? WTF? I mean no fighting whatsoever! Gah! Should have at least had bits of some battles. I mean, Sharpe managed it, hardly gonna blow the budget.
They didn't really show the battle in the books either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 13, 2011, 06:06:37 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 05:34:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 13, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
Well....that was dissapointing.
  • No battle? WTF? I mean no fighting whatsoever! Gah! Should have at least had bits of some battles. I mean, Sharpe managed it, hardly gonna blow the budget.
They didn't really show the battle in the books either.

What are you talking about?
Tyrion charged leading his mountain clansmen. Gregore Clagane broke the northmen's spear wall by charging home and losing his horse in the process. Tyrion captured a northern knight by stabbing the dude's horse using the spike on top of his helmet. Tywin's plan, which expected the left flank deployed alongside the Red Fork to collapse since it was made of irregulars and sellswords, was for Ser Kevan Lannister, commanding the center of the Lannister formation, to wheel left and pin the northmen against the river, while Lord Tywin would bring the reserve up from the rear completing the encircle against the river. But the Left flank didn't collapse, and the northmen that didn't die in the clash were able to break contact and head back north towards the Twins.

The battle of Whispiring Woods is told from Catelyn's point of view, who mostly heard rather than see the battle. It was a night battle after all. I have always wondered how well can cavalry charge at night time.
I guess it depends of the illum from the moon.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 13, 2011, 07:55:06 PM
QuoteThey didn't really show the battle in the books either.
IIRC the battle in the forest is just talked about afterwards yeah, but we do see Tyrion in battle.

Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 13, 2011, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 13, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
  • A book point really but...why on Earth doesn't Ned shout 'I take it back, I lied. Stannis is the king.' or the like there at the end?
Ned doesn't take it back because he only "confessed" to save his daughters.  To recant after the change to his fate would serve even less of a purpose.  Now he would be a liar, an oath breaker, a traitor, and his daughters would be dead as well probably.
Forgot about that, makes sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 13, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Quote
When Jory Mormont was fighting, he used his armor to win the fight. I liked that they made it clear that yeah, having a shitload of armor really is a lot better than not having a shitload of armor.
This is something that really pissed me off about the Dothraki. The peoples of the steppe were some of the best metallurgists in the world.  Tribes that didn't know anything about agriculture would outfit a few warriors in near-total armor.  Any people that adopted some stupid cultural taboo against armor would pretty quickly be slaughtered by people in armor.

The Dothraki generally appear to be living at some point in the Bronze Age.  I don't know how they are expected to conquer Westeros.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 13, 2011, 08:27:00 PM
They outnumber knights greatly, most Westeros troops aren't so armoured.

Maybe they historically had some sort of non-armour magical protection?
Also they totally dominate the steppe so theres no room for an armour using competitor to arise, any horde tries that and the other hordes will come down on them I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 13, 2011, 08:28:53 PM
One tribe would start using armor, and !surprise! start slaughtering the others.  Pretty soon, that tribe dominates, and the rest are copying them. 

That's how the steppe worked in reality.  Anything else is absurd.  Life was hard.  War was constant.  Stupidity got you slaughtered, and your women and flocks stolen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 13, 2011, 08:31:37 PM
That one tribe would be outnumbered greatly, theres a unity with the Dothraki not seen in real world steppe peoples. The herectics would be squished. Especially since most of their number would likely defect and its unlikely they'd be able to armour more than a handfull of their men.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 13, 2011, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2011, 08:28:53 PM
One tribe would start using armor, and !surprise! start slaughtering the others.  Pretty soon, that tribe dominates, and the rest are copying them. 

That's how the steppe worked in reality.  Anything else is absurd. 
Dude, fanatasy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 13, 2011, 11:14:25 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2011, 08:28:53 PM
One tribe would start using armor, and !surprise! start slaughtering the others.  Pretty soon, that tribe dominates, and the rest are copying them. 

That's how the steppe worked in reality.  Anything else is absurd.  Life was hard.  War was constant.  Stupidity got you slaughtered, and your women and flocks stolen.

The Dothraki are not that important do not sweat it.  We will just have a small group of them around going forward.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 13, 2011, 11:55:02 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
The Dothraki generally appear to be living at some point in the Bronze Age.  I don't know how they are expected to conquer Westeros.

I thought Dany's army consists mainly of freed slaves?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 14, 2011, 01:03:50 AM
 :lol:

Quote from: IMDB Boards
Don't worry, Ned Stark comes back.


The Tleilaxu make a ghola out of him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 14, 2011, 07:32:16 PM
Sean Bean is a real hero (http://ca.eonline.com/uberblog/b247126_game_of_thrones_sean_bean_stabbed_in.html?utm_source=eonline&utm_medium=rssfeeds&utm_campaign=imdb_topstories)

Funny story, in a way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 14, 2011, 07:39:01 PM
QuoteDespite his wounds, Bean refused any medical attention and opted not to go to a hospital.

Instead, the actor accepted a first aid kit from the bar staff, then ordered another drink.
:lol:


And hanging out with 22 year old models at 52...good man. Always thought he was married though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 14, 2011, 07:42:40 PM
Sean Bean is 52?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2011, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2011, 07:39:01 PM
QuoteDespite his wounds, Bean refused any medical attention and opted not to go to a hospital.

Instead, the actor accepted a first aid kit from the bar staff, then ordered another drink.
:lol:


And hanging out with 22 year old models at 52...good man. Always thought he was married though.

He's been married 4 or 5 times, as I recall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 08:07:50 PM
Blogger review:

QuoteBlogger's review:

"GAME OF THRONES "Baelor" Season 1 Episode 9 – Ever since I heard that HBO was going to adapt George RR Martin's series A Song of Ice and Fire for the television screen, a number of thoughts went through my head, mainly concerning the casting choices because above all, it's the characters in A Game of Thrones I love the most. But one scene in the first book stood out to me and I've been itching to see how creators David Benioff and DB Weiss bring it to screen, and that is the beheading of Ned Stark. It's the biggest twist in the books: Martin allows the reader to clutch on to Ned Stark as the central character. He may not be the protagonist, but he is certainly the central character: he brings the Lannisters and the Starks together. When HBO's Game of Thrones started airing the promotional material, I was so fucking smug.

First of all, they cast Sean Bean in the role of Ned Stark. Bean is an actor with very naturalistic tendencies, and in a potentially showy role like Ned Stark, he was wonderfully low key and truthful. He is also a pretty famous actor and easily the most famous actor of the cast of Game of Thrones. So HBO focused all of their posters and promos around Sean Bean's Ned Stark. Clearly, HBO was saying, Ned Stark is your Harry Potter, your Rand al'Thor, your Holden Caulfield. He is your unquestionable protagonist.

So in Ned Stark's final episode, what did creators do? They shifted the focus away from King's Landing, away from Sansa and Arya and Cersei and Joffrey and Ned Stark himself. Instead they focused on Tyrion and Jon Snow and Dany, giving Ned Stark a scene in the beginning of the episode, leaving him behind, and then abruptly moving back to him, through the eyes of Arya, in the last ten minutes of the episode. He did not get the standard melodramatic sappy scene with Sansa. There was no final parting with Arya through the iron bars of his prison cell. There was no moment of "If I don't make it, tell my wife." because Ned Stark was going to make it. By all accounts he should have. He was brought to the dais in front of the people of the Seven Kingdoms and, seeing the dire positions his daughters were in, one scruffy and alone, clinging to the base of a statue of Baelor, the other in high fashion, a prisoner of the castle, he had no choice at all. Honor be damned, he wanted his daughters safe. He confessed his treason. He should have been shown the mercy Cersei promised him. He should have been sent to the Wall.

Joffrey. You little shit.

When I rewound the beheading scene, I found myself smiling gleefully at two things. The first is Lena Headey's reaction as Cersei when Joffrey expresses his smug righteous delight when Ned declares that Joffrey is the true heir. No one can look as simultaneously triumphant and condescending as Cersei. The other thing I loved was Jack Gleeson's entire speech, especially his delivery of the line "Bring me his head!" Just...beautiful. In a terrible way, of course (I'm totally not a sadist.)

Unlike Joffrey, who is of course a little shit. He's a stupid little shit, flexing his muscles. He's the kind of jackass who would call his biceps "big guns" and give them names. But instead of biceps he has a crown and an Iron Throne. His mother, Cersei, master manipulator, had a plan, and Joffrey had to fuck it up by gorging on power and sadism. Cersei knew that sending Ned Stark to the Wall would not only be safe, but smart. Having shown Ned Stark clemency, Robb Stark and his army haven't a leg to stand on. Arya is lost, Ned is on the Wall, Sansa is betrothed to Joffrey. Why the hell would they even dare think of raising a finger to the Lannisters?

But Joffrey had to flex his big guns, didn't he? You can see Cersei pleading with him to recant.

Most tragically about that beheading scene, is that you can see Arya and Sansa both struggling to reach their father. Sansa is held back by a soldier and forced to watch everything. Arya, from her vantage point at the foot of the statue of Baelor, leaps into the crowd, tugging at Needle, before she, by her father's last command, is intercepted in the crowd. Ned Stark's final moment is saved for a glance at the statue of Baelor: seeing Arya is not there, and does not have to bear witness to his gruesome end, he bends his neck.

Holy cow. I think I might cry. It was so daring of the creators to structure the episode like this, so beautifully shot by director Alan Taylor. It's early to call, but this scene may one day go to the pantheon of "Best moments in television. Ever."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2011, 09:43:20 PM
Finally found a decent picture of Shae's actress :

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2Fcher.jpg&hash=53241d8049bee13fb3aa3cc10e65a7b2bb000056)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 15, 2011, 12:47:04 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 14, 2011, 07:42:40 PM
Sean Bean is 52?

He looked like a man pushing 40 in Goldeneye. /shrug
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 15, 2011, 01:32:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:

Or the Shae from the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:
She's pasty as hell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:00:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:
She's pasty as hell.

Why is that so important to you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 15, 2011, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:00:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:
She's pasty as hell.

Why is that so important to you?

Because he has good taste?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2011, 02:02:54 AM

Because he has good taste?

You prefer white people?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:00:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:
She's pasty as hell.

Why is that so important to you?
Pasty = pale. Girl couldn't get any whiter.
In fact, now that I think about it you have to be trolling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:17:15 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:00:32 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:
She's pasty as hell.

Why is that so important to you?
Pasty = pale. Girl couldn't get any whiter.
In fact, now that I think about it you have to be trolling.

:o
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2011, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 15, 2011, 01:32:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 01:10:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2011, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
SHe must have banged the casting director or something. Or he was drunk and thought he was casting Cher instead.
She's a better actress than almost anyone else in the cast.  This bullshit is uncalled for.

All the acting in the world can't make her look like a teenager.

Or a white person.  :hmm:

Or the Shae from the book.

It seems that Shae will have more going on for her in the series than in the books, and it's not as if her role is so vital than aging her and giving her a different background and attitude will derail the story. The vital thing about her is that she must have good chemistry with Tyrion, no matter if she's 18 or 30, westerosi or foreigner. So far I'm not really bothered by that change, let's wait and see how that pans out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:02:55 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 14, 2011, 07:42:40 PM
Sean Bean is 52?

I was surprised to find out he debuted in the 80s (the first role of his I saw him in was Caravaggio's lover/love interest, opposite Tilda Swindon, in Derek Jarman's "Caravaggio").
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 15, 2011, 03:51:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
Pasty = pale. Girl couldn't get any whiter.
In fact, now that I think about it you have to be trolling.

He means Nordic features rather than mere skintone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 15, 2011, 03:51:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 02:16:26 AM
Pasty = pale. Girl couldn't get any whiter.
In fact, now that I think about it you have to be trolling.

He means Nordic features rather than mere skintone.
He should say what he means. White = Light Skin Tone
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 04:43:57 AM
Oh. I see where the misunderstanding lies.

In your mind, an albino nigger is white.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 05:28:20 AM
Ok, to change the topic again from Slargos's racism...

Many people seem to be commenting how Jeoffrey's decision to have Ned executed proves how little control the other courtiers have on him, and it sure does shock (and is not welcome) by at least Cersei and Varys (I don't consider Pycelle to be a player, more of a pawn).

But... what if Jeoffrey was not acting out of his own idiocy, but was inspired to do so by Littlefinger? Surely, from Petyr Bealish's perspective, the execution of Ned is the best outcome possible - he gets his revenge and plunges the realm into certain civil war, in which he can thrive. Cui bono, and all that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2011, 05:32:20 AM
Could be.
But I do like the idea of Joffrey showing off to the crowd, wanting to play with his big new toy of power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2011, 05:42:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 05:28:20 AM
Ok, to change the topic again from Slargos's racism...

Many people seem to be commenting how Jeoffrey's decision to have Ned executed proves how little control the other courtiers have on him, and it sure does shock (and is not welcome) by at least Cersei and Varys (I don't consider Pycelle to be a player, more of a pawn).

But... what if Jeoffrey was not acting out of his own idiocy, but was inspired to do so by Littlefinger? Surely, from Petyr Bealish's perspective, the execution of Ned is the best outcome possible - he gets his revenge and plunges the realm into certain civil war, in which he can thrive. Cui bono, and all that.

I don't think that Littlefinger has a greater ascendancy over Joffrey than his own mother, not with all the "everyone who is not us is an enemy" attitude that Cersei instilled in him. His initial appointments are Lannisters, Tywyn as Hand and Jaime as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and his own comptent for the Starks was blatantly obvious from the beginning, so it's perfectly in character for him to have a go at Ned from his newfound power. It's not until Tyrion arrives to act as Hand on Tywyn's behalf that he's put in place and grownups take the reins of power back from him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 06:21:09 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 15, 2011, 05:42:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 05:28:20 AM
Ok, to change the topic again from Slargos's racism...

Many people seem to be commenting how Jeoffrey's decision to have Ned executed proves how little control the other courtiers have on him, and it sure does shock (and is not welcome) by at least Cersei and Varys (I don't consider Pycelle to be a player, more of a pawn).

But... what if Jeoffrey was not acting out of his own idiocy, but was inspired to do so by Littlefinger? Surely, from Petyr Bealish's perspective, the execution of Ned is the best outcome possible - he gets his revenge and plunges the realm into certain civil war, in which he can thrive. Cui bono, and all that.

I don't think that Littlefinger has a greater ascendancy over Joffrey than his own mother, not with all the "everyone who is not us is an enemy" attitude that Cersei instilled in him. His initial appointments are Lannisters, Tywyn as Hand and Jaime as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and his own comptent for the Starks was blatantly obvious from the beginning, so it's perfectly in character for him to have a go at Ned from his newfound power. It's not until Tyrion arrives to act as Hand on Tywyn's behalf that he's put in place and grownups take the reins of power back from him.

Having Ned executed is clearly something Joffrey enjoys doing, there's no question about it. That does not mean that he has not been encouraged to do so (and defy his mother) by Littlefinger - even if Cersei has theoretically greater control over him than Littlefinger does.

I was responding to people who wonder why Joffrey would find balls to do so against express wishes of his mother, not why he would do it at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 08:27:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 05:28:20 AM
Ok, to change the topic again from Slargos's racism...

Many people seem to be commenting how Jeoffrey's decision to have Ned executed proves how little control the other courtiers have on him, and it sure does shock (and is not welcome) by at least Cersei and Varys (I don't consider Pycelle to be a player, more of a pawn).

But... what if Jeoffrey was not acting out of his own idiocy, but was inspired to do so by Littlefinger? Surely, from Petyr Bealish's perspective, the execution of Ned is the best outcome possible - he gets his revenge and plunges the realm into certain civil war, in which he can thrive. Cui bono, and all that.

Littlefinger certainly has the motive and normally it would suite his methods but in this particular case I don't think so.  LF never had much influence over Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on June 15, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
And would never risk Joffrey telling his mum where he got the idea from.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 15, 2011, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 15, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
And would never risk Joffrey telling his mum where he got the idea from.

yeah
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2011, 08:45:29 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 15, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
And would never risk Joffrey telling his mum where he got the idea from.

A very good point.

And really, Littlefinger is best at setting up situations that are bound to turn bad, and then just letting them do so, as opposed to actively engineering specific acts.

He knows that putting joffrey on the throne with an incompetent Cersei in charge is a recipe for disaster. Why risk trying to drive the result? The car is going over the cliff eventually anyway, no need to try to pick out which one and risk getting caught.

What I always wonder about Littlefinger is this:

Was his offer to side with Ned legitimate?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2011, 08:47:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2011, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 15, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
And would never risk Joffrey telling his mum where he got the idea from.

yeah

That reminds me of the stratagem that Tyrion used to know who was feeding information to Cersei, when he told three different people (Pycelle, Varys and Littlefinger, IIRC) that he was agreeing to marry Mircella to a different guy each, and when Cersei flipped at him calling out specifically for the info he fed to Pycelle he knew that he was the rat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 15, 2011, 08:57:25 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2011, 08:45:29 AM

Was his offer to side with Ned legitimate?

Well, he would had dragged Ned to be his "teammate" and jolly joker on a playing field where he has no match and Ned is as bad as it gets. So why not
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 09:05:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 15, 2011, 08:47:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2011, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 15, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
And would never risk Joffrey telling his mum where he got the idea from.

yeah

That reminds me of the stratagem that Tyrion used to know who was feeding information to Cersei, when he told three different people (Pycelle, Varys and Littlefinger, IIRC) that he was agreeing to marry Mircella to a different guy each, and when Cersei flipped at him calling out specifically for the info he fed to Pycelle he knew that he was the rat.

That being said... Pycelle is the only one of the three without a vast network of informants. Perhaps Varys or Littlefinger found out what Tyrion told Pycelle. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 09:13:03 AM
Cersei sure treated Pycelle horribly considering all he went through in her service.  It is like being loyal to Commodus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2011, 09:30:55 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2011, 06:54:33 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 13, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
Robb and his men went to war against Tywin and his men and... Robb used.. a very clever farce.

Yeah, I can see why you'd like this guy, Timmay.  :D

Man, maybe if he stopped hitting the pipe so hard, he wouldn't sound like a retard s'much.
Amazing in a hilarious way. He's the perfect example of the average joe who's never read the books.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg62.imageshack.us%2Fimg62%2F8957%2Foanerdrage.jpg&hash=2a3022c47c58af2bff02e813763da45a39d704e5)

Already memefied.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2011, 09:48:33 AM
If Littlefinger had anything to do with it it wouldn't be a case of "Oy, Joff, Kill Ned would you?" it'd be "So here's the high and mighty king! Be sure to do what your mommy says like a good little boy ey?".
Knowing how Joffrey thinks so putting him in the frame of mind when he would do something stupid like this to prove himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2011, 08:45:29 AM
Was his offer to side with Ned legitimate?

If Ned looked like he would win this particular struggle it was.  It was not until he had to decide  whether to bribe the City guard to support either Ned or Cersei that he had to actively support one side or the other and even then if by some miracle Stark han won that encounter Little Finger could still say he supported Ned since the only person who would have know about Little Finger's betrayal - the captain of the guard could have been dealt with.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 15, 2011, 11:50:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.
Disagree.  I think a better bet would have been to side with no one and just waitu p north for the violence to work itself out.  It would have been difficult and time-consuming to work himself up to siding with Renly oppose the lawful king (as Ned saw it) and time was what he didn't have. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2011, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.
Well yeah, but that would involve Ned going against his honour and picking one false king over another- hell, his claim is even worse than that of Joffrey as he is neither the true heir or the commonly believed heir.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2011, 01:33:40 PM
I actually agree with ned on that one - even if you ignore the issue of "honor", the practical consequence of a new king who has zero legitimate claim succeeding a king who took the throne by force is not going to be good in the long run. At that point, the throne has no actual hereditary legitmacy, and after Robert solidifying that legitimacy seems pretty important.

Of course, in hindsight...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 01:43:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2011, 01:33:40 PM
Of course, in hindsight...

Hindsight is the only thing that makes Marti's suggestion in any way viable.  At the time Stark thinks he is going to catch Cersei by surprise (unlike the tv show which has him confront Cersei with the paternity of her children and tells her to get out of Dodge).  He doesnt know (and never learns) that it was Sansa that unwittingly betrays his plans to Cersei and he doesnt know but soon finds out that Little Finger has turned the City Guard against him rather than as planned.

Going to your question about whether LF's promise of support was ever genuine - what might have happened if Sansa didnt go running to Cersei to tell her about leaving so that Cersei could then put her own plans in motion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 01:43:33 PM
Hindsight is the only thing that makes Marti's suggestion in any way viable.  At the time Stark thinks he is going to catch Cersei by surprise (unlike the tv show which has him confront Cersei with the paternity of her children and tells her to get out of Dodge).

Um that scene happened exactly that way in the book.  Well ok not exactly that way I think Cersei tries to seduce Ned in the book.

How Sansa was relevent to what went down always confused me.  She not only told Cersei only an hour or two before it all went down but she didn't really know anything that seemed like it helped Cersei that much.  I am sorta glad that really confusing part got left out of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 15, 2011, 02:04:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 01:43:33 PM
Hindsight is the only thing that makes Marti's suggestion in any way viable.  At the time Stark thinks he is going to catch Cersei by surprise (unlike the tv show which has him confront Cersei with the paternity of her children and tells her to get out of Dodge).

Um that scene happened exactly that way in the book.  Well ok not exactly that way I think Cersei tries to seduce Ned in the book.

How Sansa was relevent to what went down always confused me.  She not only told Cersei only an hour or two before it all went down but she didn't really know anything that seemed like it helped Cersei that much.  I am sorta glad that really confusing part got left out of the show.

It reinforces the naive-nitwit persona. Not that it needs it, or merits more screen time. We already know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 02:17:11 PM
I thought it was pretty clear Littlefinger engineered Ned's death. He may not say the words but he knows how to pull the strings very very well. From framing Tyrion to arranging Jon Arryns death he has set the stage for Westeros to be in a civil war. Had Ned lived peace between Stark and Lannister was possible. Once Joffrey had him executed they were going to fight to the bitter end. It was a calculated point of no return not a fortunate coincidence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 01:57:11 PM
How Sansa was relevent to what went down always confused me.  She not only told Cersei only an hour or two before it all went down but she didn't really know anything that seemed like it helped Cersei that much.  I am sorta glad that really confusing part got left out of the show.

I didnt find it confusing at all.  When Sansa went to her she learned that Stark was sending his children North and she figured out that she and Joffrey were in imminent peril. Enough time to get to LF and turn things around on Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 02:20:24 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 02:17:11 PM
I thought it was pretty clear Littlefinger engineered Ned's death. He may not say the words but he knows how to pull the strings very very well. From framing Tyrion to arranging Jon Arryns death he has set the stage for Westeros to be in a civil war. Had Ned lived peace between Stark and Lannister was possible. Once Joffrey had him executed they were going to fight to the bitter end. It was a calculated point of no return not a fortunate coincidence.

Yes there was no return from Stark's execution.  The only people that get to do that are his wife and others helped by the Red Knight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 15, 2011, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.
Would not Stannis still kill Renly though?  Adding more troops to his army wouldn't have mattered at all.  He had the largest army amongst the claimants already when he was killed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 03:04:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 02:18:45 PM
I didnt find it confusing at all.  When Sansa went to her she learned that Stark was sending his children North and she figured out that she and Joffrey were in imminent peril. Enough time to get to LF and turn things around on Stark.

Except there really wasn't.  Sansa went to her the morning she was going to leave or just an hour or so before the trap.  And it got confusing later because Cersei starts telling everybody that Sansa told her her fathers plans, not simply that Sansa told her she was going to leave.  And besides that you are just guessing nowhere in the book did it say Cersei went to LF after she talked to Sansa.

Besides she knew Ned knew about she and Jaime so she hardly needed Sansa to know she had to act fast and that she was in peril.

In any case, like I said, glad it was not in the show.  Since GRRM himself wrote episode 8 and axed it I can only assume it was not that important to the plot so not worth worrying about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 15, 2011, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.
Would not Stannis still kill Renly though?  Adding more troops to his army wouldn't have mattered at all.  He had the largest army amongst the claimants already when he was killed.

That's like hindsight 200/200.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 03:16:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
That's like hindsight 200/200.

Yep, he is playing by your rules.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 03:19:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 15, 2011, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.
Would not Stannis still kill Renly though?  Adding more troops to his army wouldn't have mattered at all.  He had the largest army amongst the claimants already when he was killed.

That's like hindsight 200/200.

What if Renly had decided to find Dany and marry her instead of Margaery and then blasted Stannis with her dragons eh?  Eh?  Ned should have figured that into his calculations. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 15, 2011, 03:27:23 PM
Needs a map.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 15, 2011, 03:34:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 03:16:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
That's like hindsight 200/200.

Yep, he is playing by your rules.
:contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 04:01:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 03:16:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
That's like hindsight 200/200.

Yep, he is playing by your rules.

How's that? Renly's ties to Highgarden are well known, I thought.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 04:07:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 04:01:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2011, 03:16:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
That's like hindsight 200/200.

Yep, he is playing by your rules.

How's that? Renly's ties to Highgarden are well known, I thought.

You are also ignoring Ned's knowledge as to his actual peril.  Based on what Ned believed to be true his plan made a lot of sense.  With hindsight we know everything he thought was true was in fact false and that is the basis upon which one may conceive that your plan is better.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 07:03:39 PM
Ned thought the City Watch had his back. Thems like 5,000 men right there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 07:37:52 PM
Oh, good, Jaron's back to give us his unique ability to count.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on June 15, 2011, 07:42:23 PM
I think that Martin gets a perverse joy in not killing Sansa, because he knows it pisses metric fucktons of people off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 07:53:42 PM
Sansa pissed me off a lot in the early books, but she provides a valuable POV after a time.  Whether she'll actually prove to be something of a protagonist or not is the real question.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on June 15, 2011, 08:27:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 07:53:42 PM
Sansa pissed me off a lot in the early books, but she provides a valuable POV after a time.  Whether she'll actually prove to be something of a protagonist or not is the real question.
Stupid bitches is stupid.  Yo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 08:39:41 PM
Fo' realz.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 07:37:52 PM
Oh, good, Jaron's back to give us his unique ability to count.

No idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 08:45:58 PM
How you been Jaron?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 08:46:13 PM
Pretty good. How about yourself?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 08:46:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2011, 11:44:25 AM
Ned's best bet would have been to side with Renly. Unlike Littlefinger, he would have been unlikely to betray Ned, and with the money of Highgarden, he would stand a fair chance against the might of Casterly Rock. Plus Renly is a decent guy and would have probably been a decent King.

See, most people don't make political decisions based on whether someone is gay or not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 09:01:24 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 08:46:13 PM
Pretty good. How about yourself?
Doing fine. Broke my foot six weeks ago though, was in a cast/splint for a month.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 09:06:04 PM
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're doing better now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: JonasSalk on June 15, 2011, 09:08:23 PM
What are the relative populations of the various kingdoms, their ability to field large armies, etc? They mentioned in an episode a few ago that dragons killed "millions" of people a long while back. I'm guessing that may have been similar to the Black Death, where about 1/4-1/3rd of Europe's population died out?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 09:09:54 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2011, 09:06:04 PM
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're doing better now.
Thanks, I'm back to normal now. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2011, 09:10:57 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on June 15, 2011, 09:08:23 PM
What are the relative populations of the various kingdoms, their ability to field large armies, etc? They mentioned in an episode a few ago that dragons killed "millions" of people a long while back. I'm guessing that may have been similar to the Black Death, where about 1/4-1/3rd of Europe's population died out?
Renly's exaggerating for effect I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 09:20:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 07:53:42 PM
Sansa pissed me off a lot in the early books, but she provides a valuable POV after a time.  Whether she'll actually prove to be something of a protagonist or not is the real question.

I never disliked her because I felt like I was supposed to and I am kind of oppositional that way.  I sort of like the idea of the innocent immature preppy cheerleaderesque girl who is neither a love interest, somebody for the hero to rescue, nor a antagonist for the hero girl.  She is just stuck in shitty situations that prey on her natural childish tendencies (though most of the protagonists end up in situations that prey on their natural tendencies) and eventually needing to use her rather limited wits to survive.

Not sure if there is anything ultimately interesting about the character I guess it depends on how she developes I agree there but eventually I grew to enjoy her chapters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 15, 2011, 09:25:40 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on June 15, 2011, 09:08:23 PM
What are the relative populations of the various kingdoms, their ability to field large armies, etc?

The Reach, The West, The Stormlands, and the Riverlands seem to be the most populous.  Dorne and the North seem to be the smallest but have strong natural defenses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 09:29:34 PM
What bothered me about Sansa is there are long periods where she doesn't really do anything.  Often she just sits around and sees other things happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2011, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2011, 09:29:34 PM
What bothered me about Sansa is there are long periods where she doesn't really do anything.  Often she just sits around and sees other things happen.

Right, which is what I was alluding to and is a big part of my hatred of her "character" until late into book 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 16, 2011, 02:39:56 AM
I like Sansa for pretty much the reasons Valmy gave. :)

Many of the other characters are over the top (eg the little girl ninja assassin...). Sansa is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 16, 2011, 02:46:36 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 16, 2011, 02:39:56 AM
I like Sansa for pretty much the reasons Valmy gave. :)

Many of the other characters are over the top (eg the little girl ninja assassin...). Sansa is not.

Concur.

Don't be a sansa hata.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 16, 2011, 05:17:35 AM
I'm waiting for Sansa to eventually turn Littlefinger's lessons against him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2011, 05:30:38 AM
In the 4th book Sansa was one of the better characters.
Before hand though I hated her bits. It was all the same "Ohhh I'm trapped here, ohhh Joffrey, I wub you, no wait, you're a nasty git, I'm scared. Hound oooo. Dontos keeps talking of saving me...." and nothing happened....A bunch of her chapters should have been merged.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Sansa's POV is something vaguely conceivable as a possible viewpoint of a 12-13 yr old girl of her background in her position.
Arya the 10 y.o. ninja-killer, not so much  . . .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 16, 2011, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 16, 2011, 05:30:38 AM
and nothing happened....A bunch of her chapters should have been merged.

You know whose chapters should be merged?  Cersei's and Brienne's in book four.  I have no idea why it took 10 and 8 chapters to tell their stories.  And these are long AFFC chapters not short AGOT ones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2011, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Sansa's POV is something vaguely conceivable as a possible viewpoint of a 12-13 yr old girl of her background in her position.
Arya the 10 y.o. ninja-killer, not so much  . . .

Has she really ninja-killed that many people, though?  She's stabbed a few people in the back, but most of her kills have been others doing the dirty work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2011, 02:33:28 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Sansa's POV is something vaguely conceivable as a possible viewpoint of a 12-13 yr old girl of her background in her position.
Arya the 10 y.o. ninja-killer, not so much  . . .
For a 10 year old yes, she really should have had a few more years on her.
I liked her chapters though, through Arya we really explored the nitty-gritty of how badly the common people were being hurt by the war. With the others we were simply seeing the war from the POV of the head of an army, seeing quite a fun positive side of war as is typical of fantasy books really. With Arya we really get a dose of realistic 'yeah...war aint fun'.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2011, 08:34:17 PM
Some news on the 2nd season.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/06/as-game-of-thrones-nears-its-finale-showrunners-david-benioff-and-dan-weiss-talk-about-season-two.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 16, 2011, 09:25:52 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fewtvrecaps.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F04%2Ftyrion_250_1303738859.gif&hash=73c3bf652db27ca1bc34d3b872055c1553150f1e)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 16, 2011, 09:31:21 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Sansa's POV is something vaguely conceivable as a possible viewpoint of a 12-13 yr old girl of her background in her position.
Arya the 10 y.o. ninja-killer, not so much  . . .

Part of the problem is everyone is to goddamn young.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 17, 2011, 02:22:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2011, 09:31:21 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Sansa's POV is something vaguely conceivable as a possible viewpoint of a 12-13 yr old girl of her background in her position.
Arya the 10 y.o. ninja-killer, not so much  . . .

Part of the problem is everyone is to goddamn young.

Apparently Martin now regrets having made the kid characters so young, as he was counting on the now discarded several year fast forward between books 3 and 4. In the series they took advantage of that experience and aged the kid characters accordingly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:11:12 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2011, 08:34:17 PM
Some news on the 2nd season.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/06/as-game-of-thrones-nears-its-finale-showrunners-david-benioff-and-dan-weiss-talk-about-season-two.html

Wish that interview was longer but good stuff.

Looking forward to the casting news.  Filming is starting next month so we should know alot soon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 17, 2011, 08:29:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.

What about Mark Strong?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sliceofscifi.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fmark-strong.jpg&hash=4fc70b0168cbc6b7cc561fdce9a730c74de8656b)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:36:35 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tudorplace.com.ar%2FPelicula%2FHenryVIII_norfolk.jpg&hash=65253d1a43ad5719a0882b8ba7625d25ef9e31f5)

"The Iron Throne is mine by rights. All those who deny that are my foes."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.

I thought Stannis was a super-thin and wiry type of guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 18, 2011, 03:46:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.
I thought Stannis was a super-thin and wiry type of guy.

You have to realize that this is the 13th century and you can't judge people by today's standards. Back then he would've been heavy set by comparison to the filthy and starving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 18, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
With giant hairy feet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 18, 2011, 03:50:21 PM
I can indeed not imagine that they'd wax their feet.

Nor do I really want to.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 18, 2011, 03:51:30 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 18, 2011, 03:50:21 PM
I can indeed not imagine that they'd wax their feet.

Nor do I really want to.

Mart would want to know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 18, 2011, 03:53:07 PM
I imagine he would be disappointed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 04:08:37 PM
I love trolling threads full of people who have not read the books and are crying that Ned died. I told them Tyrion dies on the season finale.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 18, 2011, 04:30:26 PM
Yes, that would sound like something you would love.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 18, 2011, 07:09:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.

I thought Stannis was a super-thin and wiry type of guy.
Not quite super thin but I always picture him as quite gaunt. The sort of guy who would eat museli and other simple, rubbish food, because nice stuff is an unnecessary indulgance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 19, 2011, 02:19:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 18, 2011, 07:09:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.

I thought Stannis was a super-thin and wiry type of guy.
The sort of guy who would eat museli and other simple, rubbish food, because nice stuff is an unnecessary indulgance.

DGuller?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 19, 2011, 10:00:34 AM
Meanwhile...in an alternate universe where this series was made 20 years ago...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxc0EQiwngE&feature=player_embedded#at=31
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2011, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 04:08:37 PM
I love trolling...
FYP.  Save electrons and peoples' time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 19, 2011, 01:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 19, 2011, 10:00:34 AM
Meanwhile...in an alternate universe where this series was made 20 years ago...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxc0EQiwngE&feature=player_embedded#at=31 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxc0EQiwngE&feature=player_embedded#at=31)

I see your candy ass 8-bit nonsense, and raise you the truly epic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeNEgfVNPMo

It's pretty amazing how they've pushed the limits of what's possible for the Commodore.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 19, 2011, 03:01:37 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 18, 2011, 03:46:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 18, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 17, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
Eccleston for Stannis?

I pictured Stannis a little more heavy-set but yeah that would be great!  He even looks like a Baratheon.
I thought Stannis was a super-thin and wiry type of guy.

You have to realize that this is the 13th century and you can't judge people by today's standards. Back then he would've been heavy set by comparison to the filthy and starving.
At least 80% of the population are agricultural laborers of some sort. Years of intense physical labor. I think bulky arms would, if anything, be more common in reasonably prosperous feudal societies than today.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 19, 2011, 03:02:11 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 19, 2011, 08:58:47 PM
What a great fucking end to the season. Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 19, 2011, 09:47:37 PM
Tonight's episode was slightly lesser than last weeks' (though, it's rather hard to top the climax of that), but it was excellent all the same.  Can't wait for season 2.  :)

The biggest complaint I have is that the "King of the North" scene seemed short and rushed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 19, 2011, 10:30:45 PM
Excellent way to end the season.  I was hoping for a Renly-Loras scene as he took the crown but I guess they would have to do Highgarden and cast the other Tyrells for just one scene.

They hit all the points and even got a Lancel-Cersei scene in there.

The part where Pycelle clearly pretends to be old and feeble and senile and then clearly shows he is not when he is alone...it is all an act?  Interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 19, 2011, 11:15:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2011, 10:30:45 PM
Excellent way to end the season.  I was hoping for a Renly-Loras scene as he took the crown but I guess they would have to do Highgarden and cast the other Tyrells for just one scene.

They hit all the points and even got a Lancel-Cersei scene in there.

The part where Pycelle clearly pretends to be old and feeble and senile and then clearly shows he is not when he is alone...it is all an act?  Interesting.
I don't think he's pretending to be old. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 01:51:05 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 19, 2011, 08:58:47 PM
What a great fucking end to the season. Perfect. Absolutely perfect.

You said it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 01:54:14 AM
http://videos.nymag.com/video/What-If-Game-of-Thrones-Was-a-B#c=DQL1B234220T9ZH3&t=What%20If%20%27Game%20of%20Thrones%27%20Was%20a%20Buddy%20Comedy?

One and a Half Man.  :lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 02:00:02 AM
And don't tell me, Mart.. you're "Timmian3" on the IMDB forums?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 20, 2011, 07:45:54 AM
I havent seen the episode yet but from the reviews/recaps I take it they "nailed" the dragons' birth scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2011, 07:48:04 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 19, 2011, 11:15:32 PM
I don't think he's pretending to be old. ;)

Old to the point it affects his abilities anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 07:50:59 AM
As seen in youtube comments somewhere.  :lol:

QuotePeople complaining about a 1 year wait? Oh my sweet summer child. What do you know of waiting? Waiting is for the long night, when GRRM hides for years and children are born and live and die all before the next book comes out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 20, 2011, 07:52:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 07:50:59 AM
As seen in youtube comments somewhere.  :lol:

QuotePeople complaining about a 1 year wait? Oh my sweet summer child. What do you know of waiting? Waiting is for the long night, when GRRM hides for years and children are born and live and die all before the next book comes out.
Brilliant! :lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2011, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2011, 07:45:54 AM
I havent seen the episode yet but from the reviews/recaps I take it they "nailed" the dragons' birth scene.

It was great I only had one minor quibble with the scene: Dany's hair does not get singed off.  But I guess asking the actress to shave her head for one scene was too much to ask.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 07:55:34 AM
Here's a picture of the scene, if people want to check it:

http://ewinsidetv.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/game-dragon_510.jpg (http://ewinsidetv.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/game-dragon_510.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 08:14:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2011, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2011, 07:45:54 AM
I havent seen the episode yet but from the reviews/recaps I take it they "nailed" the dragons' birth scene.

It was great I only had one minor quibble with the scene: Dany's hair does not get singed off.  But I guess asking the actress to shave her head for one scene was too much to ask.

You'd basically have to shave her eyebrows and eyelashes as well. I don't think it's an unreasonable change.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
And besides, if she is of the dragon, and the flame cannot harm her, why could it harm her hair anyway?

That actually struck me as kind of weird in the book. She is immune to fire, but her hair isn't? What about her toenails? Are they immune, or not immune?

Kind of silly of course.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 08:34:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
And besides, if she is of the dragon, and the flame cannot harm her, why could it harm her hair anyway?

That actually struck me as kind of weird in the book. She is immune to fire, but her hair isn't? What about her toenails? Are they immune, or not immune?

Kind of silly of course.
Yes, those are the kinds of questions that spring to mind when you aren't taking care to avoid silly thinking.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2011, 08:36:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
And besides, if she is of the dragon, and the flame cannot harm her, why could it harm her hair anyway?

That actually struck me as kind of weird in the book. She is immune to fire, but her hair isn't? What about her toenails? Are they immune, or not immune?

Kind of silly of course.

I just thought it was more dramatic that way I wasn't thinking of the science involved :P

But it was just a minor thing.  No biggie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:37:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 08:34:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
And besides, if she is of the dragon, and the flame cannot harm her, why could it harm her hair anyway?

That actually struck me as kind of weird in the book. She is immune to fire, but her hair isn't? What about her toenails? Are they immune, or not immune?

Kind of silly of course.
Yes, those are the kinds of questions that spring to mind when you aren't taking care to avoid silly thinking.  :D

Yeah, I know. But they make for amusing arguments.

If her hair was burnable because hair is inanimate/dead, then did the outer layer of her epidermis also burn off?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:38:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2011, 08:36:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
And besides, if she is of the dragon, and the flame cannot harm her, why could it harm her hair anyway?

That actually struck me as kind of weird in the book. She is immune to fire, but her hair isn't? What about her toenails? Are they immune, or not immune?

Kind of silly of course.

I just thought it was more dramatic that way I wasn't thinking of the science involved :P

But it was just a minor thing.  No biggie.

Are you seriously suggesting that what drove the thinking of the author was something as pedestrian as the imagined drama of the scene, rather than the careful consideration of the science involved in Targaeryen fire immunity while burning witches?

There is a reason these books take so long to write, you know. And it isn't the author agonizing over something as trivial as the "drama" of a scene!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 08:49:34 AM
Considering the complexity of the plot in many movies and books, I sometimes wonder how much of it is deliberate by the author, and how much becomes second-hand conjecture. I read an article on Cracked that posited, for instance, that Chewbakka was actually an agent of the Rebellion all along and that while C3PO was mind-wiped, R2D2 was not and while the arrival of the Droid on Tatooine was coincidental, the placement of the Wookie was deliberate. It neatly ties together a couple of problems with the plot between the trilogy and the travesty (such as for instance why Chewbakka is a general in the prequels while he's a smuggler in the original), but it is doubtful that it was intended by Lucas.

I believe that while many plot twists are machinated by the author, it is more or less impossible to keep a consistent line in every detail, and things like the burning hair either needs to be "fixed" such as in the case of the TV series, or patched by way of explaining it after the fact either later in the books or as an aside to the extreme of the fanbois. Frankly, it's such a little point that it doesn't really merit much argument but small details are often important building blocks in large plot directions so while it may seem inconsequential there may be a larger agenda at work.

Or it's simply just a fuckup.

Dresden needs to get around somehow [to take an example from a series I just started reading where magic interrupts the function of technology by proximity], and if his car breaks down all the time a lot of work needs to be done just to get him to his destination and since it takes away from the story rather than add to it the rule of practicality needs to trump consistency. Sloppy writing, granted, but especially in the case of an author like Martin who's already too fucking slow for his own good perhaps shortcuts are necessary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 12:17:56 PM
Well done episode. They gave Pycelle sexposition. :D Also the dragons' birth, which could have been very cheesy, was done very well. Seeing Dany with no hair on TV would not have worked, so I'm glad they omitted that detail.

Also, it's interesting that they already showed all of Arya's fellow travelers from CoK. I wonder if the same actors will remain for season 2.

Edit: Except Jaqen has his face covered with an overly large hood. Thus keeping wild theories alive.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2011, 12:22:35 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.

But...that was the entire point of the scene right?  To show he is just pretending to be feeble and senile.  Roz is clearly a spy for...either LF or Varys or both...so Pycelle babbling on was done for their benefit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:15:00 PM
Was that Roz in with Pycelle?

Is she like the Forest Gump of whores?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 20, 2011, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.

At least he wasn't naked.

Now that whole bit wasn't in the book, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 20, 2011, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.

At least he wasn't naked.

Now that whole bit wasn't in the book, right?

Nope. Not sure were they are going with that, in fact. Given how much had to happen in this episode, I was a little surprised that they spent a few minutes in Pycelles bedroom.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 20, 2011, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.

At least he wasn't naked.

Now that whole bit wasn't in the book, right?

Nope. Not sure were they are going with that, in fact. Given how much had to happen in this episode, I was a little surprised that they spent a few minutes in Pycelles bedroom.

:contract:

It's going somewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:25:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 20, 2011, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.

At least he wasn't naked.

Now that whole bit wasn't in the book, right?

Nope. Not sure were they are going with that, in fact. Given how much had to happen in this episode, I was a little surprised that they spent a few minutes in Pycelles bedroom.

:contract:

It's going somewhere.

I suspect it was "Oh shit, we haven't reached our tits/pussy shot quota for this episode yet!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 01:37:10 PM
Was there any nudity in episode 8?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 01:39:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:25:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 20, 2011, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
I could have done without Pycelle's post coital calysthenics, though.

At least he wasn't naked.

Now that whole bit wasn't in the book, right?

Nope. Not sure were they are going with that, in fact. Given how much had to happen in this episode, I was a little surprised that they spent a few minutes in Pycelles bedroom.

:contract:

It's going somewhere.

I suspect it was "Oh shit, we haven't reached our tits/pussy shot quota for this episode yet!"

We had Dany's boobies at the end of the episode.  :lol:

BTW, here's some Targaryen-Stark bonding as if they were in a Tommy Hillfiger ad:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F26.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ln3cizNkuu1qzj8ueo1_500.jpg&hash=57b9a744ae3aaf134e71612364fb6b9568df2a02)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 01:42:04 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 01:37:10 PM
Was there any nudity in episode 8?

Hodor's dong?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:25:33 PM

I suspect it was "Oh shit, we haven't reached our tits/pussy shot quota for this episode yet!"

They didn't actually show Roz's tits or pussy in that scene, though, which is a first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 01:39:27 PM
BTW, here's some Targaryen-Stark bonding as if they were in a Tommy Hillfiger ad:

Viserys/Dany/Robb slashfic incoming?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Emphasizing his betrayal, I guess.  As if sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon weren't enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 20, 2011, 02:22:55 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 01:25:33 PM

I suspect it was "Oh shit, we haven't reached our tits/pussy shot quota for this episode yet!"

They didn't actually show Roz's tits or pussy in that scene, though, which is a first.

Uh...yes, briefly. She turned around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Emphasizing his betrayal, I guess.  As if sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon weren't enough.

To emphasize that the (coming) betrayal is not his first choice, but he acts on his father's order/advice to profit from a situation where Stark is weak.

Right now, Stark is strong.  But I suppose there will be a point where Robb Stark and his armies are either defeated in battle or split over a disagreement, resulting in a position of weakness against the Lannisters or another party to the game.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Why not? At this point in the story Theon is quite loyal to Robb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 20, 2011, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Emphasizing his betrayal, I guess.  As if sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon weren't enough.

To emphasize that the (coming) betrayal is not his first choice, but he acts on his father's order/advice to profit from a situation where Stark is weak.

Right now, Stark is strong.  But I suppose there will be a point where Robb Stark and his armies are either defeated in battle or split over a disagreement, resulting in a position of weakness against the Lannisters or another party to the game.

Huh I thought you hadn't read the books?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 02:49:26 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2011, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Emphasizing his betrayal, I guess.  As if sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon weren't enough.

To emphasize that the (coming) betrayal is not his first choice, but he acts on his father's order/advice to profit from a situation where Stark is weak.

Right now, Stark is strong.  But I suppose there will be a point where Robb Stark and his armies are either defeated in battle or split over a disagreement, resulting in a position of weakness against the Lannisters or another party to the game.

Huh I thought you hadn't read the books?

The thread IS pretty heavy with spoilers and Habbaku already said in plain text there was going to be a betrayal from Theon.   :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 20, 2011, 02:50:19 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2011, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Emphasizing his betrayal, I guess.  As if sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon weren't enough.

To emphasize that the (coming) betrayal is not his first choice, but he acts on his father's order/advice to profit from a situation where Stark is weak.

Right now, Stark is strong.  But I suppose there will be a point where Robb Stark and his armies are either defeated in battle or split over a disagreement, resulting in a position of weakness against the Lannisters or another party to the game.

Huh I thought you hadn't read the books?

He hasn't. Probably did like me & read a couple wiki.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 20, 2011, 02:55:49 PM
i thought he was reading it now?

i figured theon would betray him because he's a kidnapped kid and would see his chance to redeem himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Why not? At this point in the story Theon is quite loyal to Robb.


Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Why not? At this point in the story Theon is quite loyal to Robb.


Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.

I will admit that it was a while since I read the books, but from what I can recall from the books [and this is certainly what they wanted to project in the show] Theon feels more like a member of the household than a hostage. He keeps getting reminded of his status by the haughty Starks however, and seeds are constantly being sown for his betrayal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Why not? At this point in the story Theon is quite loyal to Robb.


Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.

I will admit that it was a while since I read the books, but from what I can recall from the books [and this is certainly what they wanted to project in the show] Theon feels more like a member of the household than a hostage. He keeps getting reminded of his status by the haughty Starks however, and seeds are constantly being sown for his betrayal.

Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.
Theon sees opportunities for the Greyjoys to improve their position by attacking the Lannisters while they are busy fighting the Starks and others.  Of course, his father and sister see an even more natural opportunity to expand at the expense of the Starks, but Theon is blind to this because of his friendship with Robb.

I think this is an example of you forgetting that Theon did, indeed, agree to throw the weight of the Greyjoys behind Robb.  He went home specifically to muster the Greyjoys against the Lannisterrs.  This is made clear in his discussions with his father.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Why not? At this point in the story Theon is quite loyal to Robb.


Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.

I will admit that it was a while since I read the books, but from what I can recall from the books [and this is certainly what they wanted to project in the show] Theon feels more like a member of the household than a hostage. He keeps getting reminded of his status by the haughty Starks however, and seeds are constantly being sown for his betrayal.

Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

Again, given how long it's been since I read the books this time I can only speculate on the show itself, but Theon has been pretty enthusiastic about the concept of glory in battle from the getgo and has enthusiastically supported war at every possibility. Here they're all vigorously exclaiming their loyalty to the King of the North and it's not difficult to imagine an impetuous young man being swept along, against strict reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.
Theon sees opportunities for the Greyjoys to improve their position by attacking the Lannisters while they are busy fighting the Starks and others.  Of course, his father and sister see an even more natural opportunity to expand at the expense of the Starks, but Theon is blind to this because of his friendship with Robb.

I think this is an example of you forgetting that Theon did, indeed, agree to throw the weight of the Greyjoys behind Robb.  He went home specifically to muster the Greyjoys against the Lannisterrs.  This is made clear in his discussions with his father.

You are correct, except for the part that I forgot what Theon was doing. I remember quite well.

He never swore himself to Robb though. Nor would it make sense for him to do so, even if he did (and he did) want to ally with the Starks against the Lannisters.

The only caveat to that is if he was thinking that the Geryjoys would actually be subject to the King in the North. Which

A) Seems unlikely he would agree to that without talking about it with his father, and
B) Not sure it even makes any "legal" sense. Can the heir to a house swear his loyalty to another liege? What does that even mean, in the context of their respective houses?

I am not disputing that Theon wanted to team up with Robb to kick some Lannister ass. He most certainly did. He betrayed Robb and the Starks, but it wasn't a betrayal of an oath to serve, just the more pedestrian betrayal of a friend who trusted you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
He identifies with Robb and his cause.  Why wouldn't he swear loyalty to his friend and pupil?  It's not like he was raised to understand his position as heir to the House Greyjoy, which he thinks diminished anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
He identifies with Robb and his cause.  Why wouldn't he swear loyalty to his friend and pupil?  It's not like he was raised to understand his position as heir to the House Greyjoy, which he thinks diminished anyway.

And if grumbler and I are in agreement, you can be certain there is some truth to the matter.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2011, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
Doesn't Edmure swear fealty and loyalty to Robb in the books?  Riverrun was one of the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Iron Islands I believe, correct?  At the least, the Tullys are one of the great houses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:25:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 20, 2011, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
He identifies with Robb and his cause.  Why wouldn't he swear loyalty to his friend and pupil?  It's not like he was raised to understand his position as heir to the House Greyjoy, which he thinks diminished anyway.

And if grumbler and I are in agreement, you can be certain there is some truth to the matter.  :D

I was just thinking something similar, only completely different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 03:28:34 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
Doesn't Edmure swear fealty and loyalty to Robb in the books?  Riverrun was one of the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Iron Islands I believe, correct?  At the least, the Tullys are one of the great houses.

No, the Riverlands used to be part of the Iron Islands, but aren't a kingdom themselves.  They are, however, rather strong in their own right and might as well be the "eighth kingdom".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
You are correct, except for the part that I forgot what Theon was doing. I remember quite well.

He never swore himself to Robb though. Nor would it make sense for him to do so, even if he did (and he did) want to ally with the Starks against the Lannisters.
Where does it say he never swore an oath to Robb?  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  By swearing an oath to Robb, he gets his freedom (perhaps not in the book, but it certainly makes sense from the TV show perspective, where everything is simplified).  If he didn't swear, why would Robb release such a valuable hostage?

QuoteThe only caveat to that is if he was thinking that the Geryjoys would actually be subject to the King in the North. Which

A) Seems unlikely he would agree to that without talking about it with his father, and
B) Not sure it even makes any "legal" sense. Can the heir to a house swear his loyalty to another liege? What does that even mean, in the context of their respective houses?
Of course the heads of houses can swear allegiance to kings.  The books are full of that.  Ned did that himself.

QuoteI am not disputing that Theon wanted to team up with Robb to kick some Lannister ass. He most certainly did. He betrayed Robb and the Starks, but it wasn't a betrayal of an oath to serve, just the more pedestrian betrayal of a friend who trusted you.
I am pretty sure that he and Robb allied themselves formally in some fashion in the book, else Robb wouldn't have released Theon to return to the Iron Isles.  Theon was a hostage to the good behavior of the Greyjoys, and Robb wouldn't have given that up save to gain something from it.  IIRC, the books do not detail the specifics of their agreement, but nothing I recall indicates that what happened in the series was so grievously wrong as you suppose.

Unless, of course, I am misremembering something, and the exact oath Robb extracted from Theon was discussed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2011, 03:30:31 PM
Ah, that's right.  Do the Tullys count as a "Great House" though?  I figured they at least held that status, if not one of the Seven Kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?
Doesn't Edmure swear fealty and loyalty to Robb in the books?  Riverrun was one of the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Iron Islands I believe, correct?  At the least, the Tullys are one of the great houses.

Exactly - and as such, Tully swore to be *under* the King in the North, as one of the subjects of the King. The two houses, Stark and Tully, at that point were in rebellion.

Greyjoy never agreed to join the King in the North, so how can Theon swear fealty to Robb? He does not have that authority. He certainly did not do so in the book, at least not that I remember.

Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 03:36:37 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 03:30:31 PM
Ah, that's right.  Do the Tullys count as a "Great House" though?  I figured they at least held that status, if not one of the Seven Kingdoms.

I don't know/recall if that qualifies them or not.  If not in name,  then they are certainly de facto one of the greats, since they're head of the Riverlands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: merithyn on June 20, 2011, 03:37:59 PM
I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house? :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2011, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.

Not only that, he proposes to recognize Balon Greyjoy as a fellow monarch, co-equal in status. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
You are correct, except for the part that I forgot what Theon was doing. I remember quite well.

He never swore himself to Robb though. Nor would it make sense for him to do so, even if he did (and he did) want to ally with the Starks against the Lannisters.
Where does it say he never swore an oath to Robb?  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  By swearing an oath to Robb, he gets his freedom (perhaps not in the book, but it certainly makes sense from the TV show perspective, where everything is simplified).  If he didn't swear, why would Robb release such a valuable hostage?


1. Because Robb trusts him
2. Because Robb assumes the best about others
3. Because Robb is kind of an idiot at times.

True, there is nothing in the book that says Theon did NOT swear an oath to Robb, but I think there is good reason for that - because such an oath would not make much sense.

Quote

QuoteThe only caveat to that is if he was thinking that the Geryjoys would actually be subject to the King in the North. Which

A) Seems unlikely he would agree to that without talking about it with his father, and
B) Not sure it even makes any "legal" sense. Can the heir to a house swear his loyalty to another liege? What does that even mean, in the context of their respective houses?
Of course the heads of houses can swear allegiance to kings.  The books are full of that.  Ned did that himself.

But Theon is not the head of a house. That is my point - he is just the heir. He has no legal authority (I don't thin) to bind Greyjoy under the King in the North.

IIRC, his proposal was actually to allow Balon to crown himself King, and part of the reason Theon was so ridiculed was the implication that the Starks would "give" a kingship to Balon, rather than him seizing it himself.
Quote

QuoteI am not disputing that Theon wanted to team up with Robb to kick some Lannister ass. He most certainly did. He betrayed Robb and the Starks, but it wasn't a betrayal of an oath to serve, just the more pedestrian betrayal of a friend who trusted you.
I am pretty sure that he and Robb allied themselves formally in some fashion in the book, else Robb wouldn't have released Theon to return to the Iron Isles.

Robb sent him off with a formal proposal for alliance between the Starks and Greyjoys. I am sure Theon assured him that it would be honored. Theon had no idea he would be pushed aside as he was when he got home, and Robb simply accepted his word that he would be able to make the agreement stick. Neither of them understood Balon one bit.

I was surprised, even reading the books, that some of Robbs advisers did not object to the proposal in fact - presumably these men would know Balon Greyjoy - , but perhaps they were not even consulted - I think the proposal was something of a secret.
Quote
  Theon was a hostage to the good behavior of the Greyjoys, and Robb wouldn't have given that up save to gain something from it.  IIRC, the books do not detail the specifics of their agreement, but nothing I recall indicates that what happened in the series was so grievously wrong as you suppose.

I would not call it grievously wrong, just kind of patronizing to the viewers. Theon's betrayal is powerful enough without him swearing to Robb - in fact, it is a much more personal betrayal, than strictly a political betrayal.
Quote

Unless, of course, I am misremembering something, and the exact oath Robb extracted from Theon was discussed.

I don't think it was - the context, IIRC, of the agreement was entirely presented by Theon to Balon, never revealed in the books as a discussion between Robb and Theon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2011, 03:40:48 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 20, 2011, 03:37:59 PM
I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house? :unsure:

Theon is the heir to the house though.  Or at least Robb and Theon both think so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:42:30 PM
Quote from: merithyn on June 20, 2011, 03:37:59 PM
I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house? :unsure:

Yes, I don't think you could take it any other way.

But that makes Theon even more silly. How can the heir to a kingdom personally swear fealty to another? Is he renouncing his own claim as heir to the Iron Isles (whether that be as a Lord or as a King)? Doesn't seem likely. If not, what does it mean for the heir to a house to swear fealty to another, when his house has no such fealty?

Like I said, I think it is just the writers making sure us idiot viewers don't miss the fact that Theon is a dirty lying little shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:45:09 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 03:28:34 PM
No, the Riverlands used to be part of the Iron Islands, but aren't a kingdom themselves.  They are, however, rather strong in their own right and might as well be the "eighth kingdom".
Nor was House Tyrell ever royalty.  House Baratheon was only royal during Robert's rule.  House Greyjoy was not royal, either, except briefly during Baylon's Revolt.

Only four of the houses that led kingdom's before Arron's invasion are still extant.  The Storm Kings, Gardners, and Hoares all perished during the conquest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2011, 03:45:29 PM
I know Catelyn objected to sending Theon back to his father to negotiate.  For some reason I think others might have as well.  Catelyn wanted to go in Theon's place, but Robb shot her down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 03:45:29 PM
I know Catelyn objected to sending Theon back to his father to negotiate.  For some reason I think others might have as well.  Catelyn wanted to go in Theon's place, but Robb shot her down.

That Robb sure made a lot of really great decisions...

Of course, I don't think it would have worked out much better with Catelyn going - that would have just given the Greyjoys a hostage to match against Theon, and I don't think they cared much about Theon at that point anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.
But why wouldn't Robb want, and Theon offer, the loyalty and submission of the Iron Islands after Balon (who was getting on in years) died?  The Greyjoys had always (with the exception of a few months or years during their rebellion) been subject to kings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:49:28 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2011, 03:39:25 PM
Not only that, he proposes to recognize Balon Greyjoy as a fellow monarch, co-equal in status.
Balon, yes.  Robb couldn't have hoped that Balon would subject himself to a king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:45:09 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 03:28:34 PM
No, the Riverlands used to be part of the Iron Islands, but aren't a kingdom themselves.  They are, however, rather strong in their own right and might as well be the "eighth kingdom".
Nor was House Tyrell ever royalty.  House Baratheon was only royal during Robert's rule.  House Greyjoy was not royal, either, except briefly during Baylon's Revolt.


The House was not royal, but the Iron Islands were a Kingdom before, and Greyjoy was one of the house who claimed descent from the rulers of the Iron Islands, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:54:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.
But why wouldn't Robb want, and Theon offer, the loyalty and submission of the Iron Islands after Balon (who was getting on in years) died? 

I don't know - why doesn't anyone offer submission ot kings if they don't have to?

The justification for the revolt of the North was that the North was only conquered because the Taergareyns had dragons - no dragons, so why should they be subject to Kings Landing anymore?

Prior to that subjugation by Aegon, the Iron Isles were not subject to the King in the North - why would they agree to be subject them to them now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:59:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
1. Because Robb trusts him
2. Because Robb assumes the best about others
3. Because Robb is kind of an idiot at times.
True, there is nothing in the book that says Theon did NOT swear an oath to Robb, but I think there is good reason for that - because such an oath would not make much sense.
It makes perfect sense to me.  Why would Theon want to be an independent king, loding it over an unruly people, when he could have everything he wanted and the support of a powerful liege?  It makes perfect sense to me, from what I know of Theon and his hopes.

QuoteBut Theon is not the head of a house. That is my point - he is just the heir. He has no legal authority (I don't thin) to bind Greyjoy under the King in the North.

IIRC, his proposal was actually to allow Balon to crown himself King, and part of the reason Theon was so ridiculed was the implication that the Starks would "give" a kingship to Balon, rather than him seizing it himself.
I'll rewatch the episode.  I don't recall him binding his father to anything.

QuoteI was surprised, even reading the books, that some of Robbs advisers did not object to the proposal in fact - presumably these men would know Balon Greyjoy - , but perhaps they were not even consulted - I think the proposal was something of a secret.
I think you are right in this - that this would thing was the escapade of two young nobles who think they can, between themselves, change the world.  I just don't see it at all untypical of Theon to pledge his loyalty to Robb.  He lacked self-confidence and was a natural second fiddle.  Had Martin explicitly written it that way in the books, I would have thought nothing unusual of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 04:05:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:49:40 PM
The House was not royal, but the Iron Islands were a Kingdom before, and Greyjoy was one of the house who claimed descent from the rulers of the Iron Islands, I think.
Nope.  They were chosen by the Iron Islanders after House Hoare was annihilated, presumably because they were the most powerful remaining nobility.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2011, 04:12:49 PM
Theon does seem very loyal to Robb when he first goes to the Iron Isles and wanting to help him. Only when it becomes clear that isn't going to happen does he realise that in his own best interest he better follow the old adage of in for a penny, in for a pound.

In the episode he says nought about his dad or the Iron Islands. Just about Robb always being a brother to him and so he swears his brotherhood and all that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:28:32 PM
So, besides the geopolitics, what do you think of the peek we got at Jaqen, Rorge and Biter?  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:29:33 PM
The peek at those three was pretty awesome.  I can only hope that Rorge and Biter are as "nice" as they are in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 20, 2011, 04:33:46 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 01:39:27 PM
BTW, here's some Targaryen-Stark bonding as if they were in a Tommy Hillfiger ad:

Viserys/Dany/Robb slashfic incoming?
Yes. :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:34:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2011, 04:33:46 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 20, 2011, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 01:39:27 PM
BTW, here's some Targaryen-Stark bonding as if they were in a Tommy Hillfiger ad:

Viserys/Dany/Robb slashfic incoming?
Yes. :perv:

You know one of them is a girl, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:54:49 PM
I don't know - why doesn't anyone offer submission ot kings if they don't have to?
Polities have joined kingdoms voluntarily to receive protection many times. 

QuoteThe justification for the revolt of the North was that the North was only conquered because the Taergareyns had dragons - no dragons, so why should they be subject to Kings Landing anymore?
The justification for the revolt of the North was that House Baratheon had proven itself unable to defeat the Lannisters, and only a King could muster the loyalty of the Tully bannerman, insofar as I can tell (it could also have just been the Stark bannermen feeling their oats - that was a sorry lot, indeed).

QuotePrior to that subjugation by Aegon, the Iron Isles were not subject to the King in the North - why would they agree to be subject them to them now?
Because Theon would feel more secure in his rule, if he had a liege to back him up, is my proposition.

It isn't like this hadn't happened in history.  Lithuania voluntarily subjected itself to Poland.  Most of the Swiss cantons voluntarily joined the Holy Roman Empire when the Francia kingdoms broke up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:29:33 PM
The peek at those three was pretty awesome.  I can only hope that Rorge and Biter are as "nice" as they are in the books.

Who do you think was the one hooded? I thought it was Biter, but some other people belive it was Jaqen the one who didn't show his face.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2011, 04:36:35 PM
Its not exactly Theon's place to say what happens with the Iron Islands though. Even assuming his dad is due to die within days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:29:33 PM
The peek at those three was pretty awesome.  I can only hope that Rorge and Biter are as "nice" as they are in the books.

Who do you think was the one hooded? I thought it was Biter, but some other people belive it was Jaqen the one who didn't show his face.

Had to have been Jaqen.  Easiest way to avoid casting him until season 2 is to make sure you can't really see the actor's face.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 04:29:33 PM
The peek at those three was pretty awesome.  I can only hope that Rorge and Biter are as "nice" as they are in the books.

Who do you think was the one hooded? I thought it was Biter, but some other people belive it was Jaqen the one who didn't show his face.

Had to have been Jaqen.  Easiest way to avoid casting him until season 2 is to make sure you can't really see the actor's face.

For some reason I assumed that Jaqen was the one shown in first term, the slightly redhead-ish one, with his distinctive hair colouring having been ditched in the adaptation.

I always wondered why Yoren would pick them for the Night's Watch, as they seemed to be beyond redemption and dangerous wildcards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 20, 2011, 04:36:35 PM
Its not exactly Theon's place to say what happens with the Iron Islands though. Even assuming his dad is due to die within days.
Agreed, but I don't think he said anything about what was going to happen with the Iron Islands while his dad was alive.  As Lord Greyjoy, it is very much his place to say what happens with the Iron Islands.  His submission to Robb would have been no different than Edmure Tully's (and the Riverlands had never been part of the historical Kingdom of the North, either).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2011, 04:55:27 PM
He's out of the inheritance as we see when he gets there. It isn't said explicity in the book but it seems to me the Iron Islands don't officially follow standard laws of succession and its just down to convention that they do the usual son follows father thing. Due their old traditions they've still got a bit of democracy rumbling there and its easier for them to switch than others.
Theon doesn't know this of course and is in for a nasty surprise but nonetheless I don't think he'd bend the knee to Robb. He sees himself as his brother, his equal, a situation which is increasingly changing as Robb takes on ever more duties and increasingly annoying Theon as he is pushed into a subserviant role. I think he'd want to be Robb's fellow king. A good ally and friend certainly but an equal nonetheless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
I always wondered why Yoren would pick them for the Night's Watch, as they seemed to be beyond redemption and dangerous wildcards.
Could have been a package deal.  "Take your choice of men from the dungeons, but you also have to take these three.  Good luck!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:59:26 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
I always wondered why Yoren would pick them for the Night's Watch, as they seemed to be beyond redemption and dangerous wildcards.
Could have been a package deal.  "Take your choice of men from the dungeons, but you also have to take these three.  Good luck!"

Theoretically Ned gave him the possibility of handpicking from the captives in the cells. Those three didn't seem to be exactly Night Watch material. The others were young kids and normal prisoners, but those three were in the Black Cells, they must have been guilty of something terrible in order to be there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 05:01:54 PM
Also, was the bard who got his tongue ripped the same one who travelled with Cat and Tyrion to the Vale?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 05:03:25 PM
I've always kind of wondered what the Night's Watch was going to do with them once they got to the Wall.

They don't exactly seem redeemable...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2011, 05:04:51 PM
Give them the really nasty wildling killing jobs?

IIRC I'm pretty sure the guy cleaned out the cells taking everyone he could.

I noticed how Jaqen (Or was it Jaqar...) had his face covered- he not cast yet?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2011, 05:26:02 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:59:26 PMTheoretically Ned gave him the possibility of handpicking from the captives in the cells. Those three didn't seem to be exactly Night Watch material. The others were young kids and normal prisoners, but those three were in the Black Cells, they must have been guilty of something terrible in order to be there.

did yoren arrive in king's landing with knowledge of the first minor zombie attack at the wall? that might explain it
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 20, 2011, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.
But why wouldn't Robb want, and Theon offer, the loyalty and submission of the Iron Islands after Balon (who was getting on in years) died?  The Greyjoys had always (with the exception of a few months or years during their rebellion) been subject to kings.

Wasn't the king in Harrenhal from the Iron Islands?
Wasn't he a Greyjoy?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2011, 06:28:53 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 20, 2011, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.
But why wouldn't Robb want, and Theon offer, the loyalty and submission of the Iron Islands after Balon (who was getting on in years) died?  The Greyjoys had always (with the exception of a few months or years during their rebellion) been subject to kings.

Wasn't the king in Harrenhal from the Iron Islands?
Wasn't he a Greyjoy?


Yes
No

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Greyjoy

QuoteThe House descends from the legendary Grey King in the Age of Heroes. The Greyjoys became Lords Paramount of the Iron Isles after the Targaryen conquest, when Aegon I allowed the ironborn to choose who would have primacy over them. They chose Vickon Greyjoy and his line.
..so...in keeping with the viking democracy of the Iron Islands it seems they did used to be kings. But weren't at the time of the conquest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 20, 2011, 07:37:18 PM
Damn, but I'm not ready for the season to end ,and wait for next season to begin!

Anyone know the ratings for the series? How well it's doing among viewers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2011, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
What was the deal with Theon swearing to Robb? That doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Emphasizing his betrayal, I guess.  As if sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon weren't enough.

To emphasize that the (coming) betrayal is not his first choice, but he acts on his father's order/advice to profit from a situation where Stark is weak.

Right now, Stark is strong.  But I suppose there will be a point where Robb Stark and his armies are either defeated in battle or split over a disagreement, resulting in a position of weakness against the Lannisters or another party to the game.

Huh I thought you hadn't read the books?
I haven't completed the books.  But I have started reading them.

I have read all of the 122 pages of this thread (so far, I missed the last 4), and people keep talking about Theon's betrayal and that of his father, and how crazy all of the family is, with various comments about the physical aspects of the actors possibly playing all of them, saying "they all look crazy".

Besides, if you remember 3 particular scenes involving Theon, it's easy to piece everything together.
1) In the woods, there is a conflict with Robb.  People here have said it makes the stage for his eventual rebellion.
2) When talking to the wildling, he emphasized that he was to be cally "My lord", because he was an important lord of the south, and the girl goaded him a bit, forcing him to admit that his father was the lord, not him, that he was in fact nothing.
3) He speaks to Robb, calls him a brother, says he will fight by his side.  Robb has conflicts with some of his vassals.  Already, the Tully from Riverrun have refused to help him.  His direwolf bit two fingers of one of his allies.  He insists he is not be to called "boy", wich seems plausible in the tv series, but in the books, when he said to be 14 or 15, to an old lad, it can be insulting to have to follow a mere boy through battles.
4) It has been said that Theon Greyjoy is sort of an hostage at the Stark's "court" to keep peace with his father.  One of the Lannisters, Tyrion or Jaime goaded him about that in the first episode, saying something like his father was a great lord/warrior and he was an errand boy (or something like that) for the ennemies of his father.

On top of that, the Lannisters have the most powerful army in the kingdom.  Face to face, they can defeat the Starks.  Their only concern is meeting 3 different armies, potential allies if only to defeat them, at the same time.  Even with superior numbers, being attacked by 3 sides is difficult to contain.

If Greyjoy sr is an ennemy of Stark, if the Stark just lost the head of the family, have one girl hostage to a deranged offspring of an incestuous relation between two madplotters, one girl disguised as a boy to avoid assassins, one boy crippled, one way too young to be relevant (and it is said here that they will be killed), one bastard at the Nightwatch unable to do anything to directly help them in this civil matter (though I think he will play an important part against the Others), it's easy to see that at one point, the Starks will be vulnerable.  If I was Greyjoy and I hated the Starks, I'd wait patiently for my turn to declare myself "Supreme leader of Westoros" among the other 6-7 other Supreme Leader (I think GRRM took inspiration from Astérix chez les Goths :P )

Since Robb Stark as declared himself King of the North and implicitely rejected any kind of official allicance with Robert's brothers, he is essentially alone with his armies trying to defeat the Lannisters and keeping indepedance afterward faced to Stannis and the other Baratheon.

If I keep reading this thread, I probably won't need to finish the books ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:25:48 PM
Quote from: KRonn on June 20, 2011, 07:37:18 PM
Damn, but I'm not ready for the season to end ,and wait for next season to begin!

Anyone know the ratings for the series? How well it's doing among viewers?
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/19/game-of-thrones-ratings-season-one/95990/ (http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/19/game-of-thrones-ratings-season-one/95990/)

Very good, but not as good as True Blood on HBO or Boardwalk Empire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:28:33 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 20, 2011, 02:55:49 PM
i thought he was reading it now?
Yes, I am :)  I expect I'll be finished all 5 of them by the end of the summer since I'll buy that 5th one when it comes out in July.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 20, 2011, 08:30:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:24:08 PM
If I keep reading this thread, I probably won't need to finish the books ;)

Martin's story-telling is a touch above ours.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:32:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.
Given that, it's probably to emphasize the betrayal.  He likes Robb, but his first duty is to his family.  Between his family and the Stark's, he chose his family.

It's a tv series and we won't see this actual betrayal until later next year or the next, I suppose.  By that time, viewers who haven't read the book might be confused as to why this is happenning.

In a book, if you forgot something, you can just pick it up again and read the relevant pages to remember.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:34:47 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 20, 2011, 08:30:17 PM
Martin's story-telling is a touch above ours.
So far, it's better than I expected. :)  I was worried it might be too long at some points, but it's going fine :)
I just need to find more time to read.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 20, 2011, 08:44:46 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:25:48 PM
Quote from: KRonn on June 20, 2011, 07:37:18 PM
Damn, but I'm not ready for the season to end ,and wait for next season to begin!

Anyone know the ratings for the series? How well it's doing among viewers?
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/19/game-of-thrones-ratings-season-one/95990/ (http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/19/game-of-thrones-ratings-season-one/95990/)

Very good, but not as good as True Blood on HBO or Boardwalk Empire.
I've been fairly impressed and pleased with what they've done with this series. I figured it was a tough book to make into movie but I think it's been done very well. Seems to be following the story's major characters and actions pretty well. And I think over all the characters are being protrayed very well by the actors. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2011, 08:50:48 PM
Quote from: KRonn on June 20, 2011, 08:44:46 PM
I've been fairly impressed and pleased with what they've done with this series. I figured it was a tough book to make into movie but I think it's been done very well. Seems to be following the story's major characters and actions pretty well. And I think over all the characters are being protrayed very well by the actors. 
Yes, so far it's very good :)
I thought we were getting 13 episodes though, so I was a bit disapointed that this was the season finale.
Oh well. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: JonasSalk on June 20, 2011, 09:10:36 PM
Tough to justify making 13 episodes for a series that could have failed like John From Cincinnati did. 10 makes it cheaper to produce and not a total loss if it fails.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2011, 10:48:59 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on June 20, 2011, 09:10:36 PM
Tough to justify making 13 episodes for a series that could have failed like John From Cincinnati did. 10 makes it cheaper to produce and not a total loss if it fails.
And they cancelled Deadwood because they wanted to rush JfC into production!  :lol:

Thirteen episodes is their standard, but I think they learned from Rome that thirteen episodes cost too much when it is a big-budget production and they need to put all the cash up front before they know how popular it will be.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the second season come in at twelve or thirteen episodes, now that they know.  More episodes means they can justify charging more for the DVDs and foreign rights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 10:51:19 PM
Yeah, this has become a common tactic with shows of late.  See The Walking Dead, for example, with its 6 episode first season and how its second is being expanded to a full 13-episode run.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 21, 2011, 01:25:06 AM
Quote from: merithyn on June 20, 2011, 03:37:59 PM
I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house? :unsure:

No, you just missed the part where Berkut made this issue the new stag-skinning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 21, 2011, 02:35:09 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 10:51:19 PM
Yeah, this has become a common tactic with shows of late.  See The Walking Dead, for example, with its 6 episode first season and how its second is being expanded to a full 13-episode run.

Shows with developing story arcs and complex characters need pilot seasons, not pilot episodes. This makes a good deal of sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2011, 03:55:40 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 21, 2011, 02:35:09 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2011, 10:51:19 PM
Yeah, this has become a common tactic with shows of late.  See The Walking Dead, for example, with its 6 episode first season and how its second is being expanded to a full 13-episode run.

Shows with developing story arcs and complex characters need pilot seasons, not pilot episodes. This makes a good deal of sense.

I think they should have done something similar to BSG, having a pilot miniseries to establish all characters and a couple of flashbacks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2011, 04:15:37 AM
One of the things I noticed about this show, BTW, was the brilliant cinematography.  Light is used extremely well, and the Dothraki shoots in particular seemed to use some camera settings to get an ethereal look.  Good cinematography can't save you from bad writing or acting, but it can add a lot to good acting and writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2011, 04:42:15 AM
Guys, get your act together, Miss USA might be a legitimate target.  :lol:

QuoteThe new Miss USA likes 'Game of Thrones,' supports medical marijuana, believes in evolution, and is not unattractive

Your new Miss USA is a redhead from California named Alyssa Campanella. She is allergic to the sun. When it came time to offer a personal anecdote, she said, "I'm obsessed with the Tudor and Stuart era," which is surely the nerdiest thing that anyone has ever said on a show produced by Donald Trump. Or at least, it was the nerdiest thing, until she followed it up with: "I watch Game of Thrones." Later, when Real Housewife Caroline Manzo asked if Campanella supported legalizing marijuana to inject a new source of capitalistic competition into our recessionary economy (although not in so many words), Campanella demurred by noting that, although abusing drugs is bad, medical marijuana is a social good (although not in so many words.) She apparently believes evolution should be taught in schools.

In short, your new Miss USA is a godless ginger-vampire reefer queen who spends her leisure time reading books about the British monarchy and watching a show about decapitation, incest, and dragon boobs. We salute her. True, Campanella is actually a blonde. But she openly admits that her red hair is fake. And in the end, isn't that the real truth?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 21, 2011, 05:22:43 AM
She is, according to tabloids here, Danish. It's probably the same as our claim on Scarlett Johansson, in that one of her parents is Danish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 21, 2011, 05:23:10 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:59:26 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
I always wondered why Yoren would pick them for the Night's Watch, as they seemed to be beyond redemption and dangerous wildcards.
Could have been a package deal.  "Take your choice of men from the dungeons, but you also have to take these three.  Good luck!"

Theoretically Ned gave him the possibility of handpicking from the captives in the cells. Those three didn't seem to be exactly Night Watch material. The others were young kids and normal prisoners, but those three were in the Black Cells, they must have been guilty of something terrible in order to be there.

Well, the Night Watch is pretty desperate for anyone they can get these days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 05:48:16 AM
Will we see Baratheon's boy again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2011, 06:02:09 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 21, 2011, 05:22:43 AM
She is, according to tabloids here, Danish. It's probably the same as our claim on Scarlett Johansson, in that one of her parents is Danish.

50% of Ms. Johansson's genes seem enough to claim her as, partially, one of your own. We get to claim Michael Sheen that way, so you're better off.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2011, 06:13:14 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 21, 2011, 05:23:10 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:59:26 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 20, 2011, 04:46:59 PM
I always wondered why Yoren would pick them for the Night's Watch, as they seemed to be beyond redemption and dangerous wildcards.
Could have been a package deal.  "Take your choice of men from the dungeons, but you also have to take these three.  Good luck!"

Theoretically Ned gave him the possibility of handpicking from the captives in the cells. Those three didn't seem to be exactly Night Watch material. The others were young kids and normal prisoners, but those three were in the Black Cells, they must have been guilty of something terrible in order to be there.

Well, the Night Watch is pretty desperate for anyone they can get these days.

I'd still draw a line between "anyone they can get" and those three.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 21, 2011, 06:16:19 AM
The last scene (mother of dragons) was almost as powerful visually as it was in the book.

When is the fat man's next book coming out?  I'll re-read the whole thing.




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2011, 06:21:54 AM
July 12.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 21, 2011, 06:26:42 AM
Oh I forgot Lancel's cute little butt! :wub:



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 21, 2011, 06:39:53 AM
When they first showed naked Lancel, I thought it was some girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 21, 2011, 06:56:04 AM
:lol:
I too thought 'oh? Is it naked girly time again? Looks a bit thin don't she?.....oh wait....its that Lancel bit.'
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2011, 07:47:26 AM
I can't wait until I have time to watch all ten episodes back to back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2011, 07:48:53 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 21, 2011, 06:16:19 AM
The last scene (mother of dragons) was almost as powerful visually as it was in the book.

G.

Agree - they really hit that one out of the park. The entire thing was very, very well done.

Considering they only had ten episodes to do it, and the Daeny story is only about 25% of the screen time, they did a masterful job of turning her from the scared little sister of Viserys to the Mother of Dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 08:28:32 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2011, 07:48:53 AM
Considering they only had ten episodes to do it, and the Daeny story is only about 25% of the screen time, they did a masterful job of turning her from the scared little sister of Viserys to the Mother of Dragons.
the actress is formidable too, you can believe that she's a scared little girl at first, and you can see her evolve in her role of Khaleesi and eventually leader of her own tribe at the end of the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:34:57 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 08:28:32 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2011, 07:48:53 AM
Considering they only had ten episodes to do it, and the Daeny story is only about 25% of the screen time, they did a masterful job of turning her from the scared little sister of Viserys to the Mother of Dragons.
the actress is formidable too, you can believe that she's a scared little girl at first, and you can see her evolve in her role of Khaleesi and eventually leader of her own tribe at the end of the season.

I disagree, to me she still looks like a scarred little girls that's faking it. EC sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 08:50:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:34:57 AM
I disagree, to me she still looks like a scarred little girls that's faking it. EC sucks.

Why are you filled with such rage at the European Commission?  And what does that have to do with scared little girls faking it with you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 21, 2011, 08:53:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 08:50:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:34:57 AM
I disagree, to me she still looks like a scarred little girls that's faking it. EC sucks.

And what does that have to do with scared little girls faking it with you?
I mean you'd think he'd be used to it by now :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:57:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 08:50:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:34:57 AM
I disagree, to me she still looks like a scarred little girls that's faking it. EC sucks.

Why are you filled with such rage at the European Commission?  And what does that have to do with scared little girls faking it with you?

Garbon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:57:59 AM
Garbon?

Oh come on using a weird acronym and talking about little girls faking it was just asking for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 09:03:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:57:59 AM
Garbon?

Oh come on using a weird acronym and talking about little girls faking it was just asking for it.

I give you the faking partm sure but EC? Emilia Clarke?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 09:08:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 09:03:17 AM
I give you the faking partm sure but EC? Emilia Clarke?

Ah.  Meh she doesn't suck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

Exceptions for LBJ, FDR, TR, JFK and JC(though even that last one might make people think of GJC).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 21, 2011, 09:39:38 AM
Only people with two first names get acronyms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 21, 2011, 09:47:52 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

though even that last one might make people think of GJC
Who?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 21, 2011, 10:31:45 AM
Gaius Julius Caesar
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 10:35:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 08:34:57 AM
I disagree, to me she still looks like a scarred little girls that's faking it. EC sucks.
Look at her eyes, not her boobs, you'll see what I'm talking about ;)
Also, listen to the sound of her voice when she speaks, in the first 2 episodes and the last 2 ones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 10:36:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

Exceptions for LBJ, FDR, TR, JFK and JC
I'd never thought Jean Chrétien was famous in the US too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 21, 2011, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 10:36:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

Exceptions for LBJ, FDR, TR, JFK and JC
I'd never thought Jean Chrétien was famous in the US too.
he punches protesters. man deserves respect. plus he's monkey ass ugly and was still a ladies man in his day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 21, 2011, 10:42:33 AM
I suspect the general public would be more confused by inclusion of Teddy than the guy a quarter of the world thinks is God.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 05:48:16 AM
Will we see Baratheon's boy again?

Gendry's in several parts of the books both while traveling with Arya and while elsewhere; so yes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 21, 2011, 10:54:36 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 10:36:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

Exceptions for LBJ, FDR, TR, JFK and JC
I'd never thought Jean Chrétien was famous in the US too.
Jimmy Carter is though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 10:56:30 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 05:48:16 AM
Will we see Baratheon's boy again?

Gendry's in several parts of the books both while traveling with Arya and while elsewhere; so yes.

Excellent.  :bowler:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 21, 2011, 11:23:33 AM
I do think for once the various 'chapels' of Languish agree on something.  Many things were left out but the core story was very well done.  All the main characters were well drawn up, their motivations were clear and despite the white walkers and the dragons at the end - the whole thing comes off as a drama rather than a 'fantasy series'.  Much like BSG was a drama rather than a space opera.  And from what I hear about the ratings, a second season is a sure thing.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 11:28:25 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 21, 2011, 11:23:33 AM
I do think for once the various 'chapels' of Languish agree on something.  Many things were left out but the core story was very well done.  All the main characters were well drawn up, their motivations were clear and despite the white walkers and the dragons at the end - the whole thing comes off as a drama rather than a 'fantasy series'.  Much like BSG was a drama rather than a space opera.  And from what I hear about the ratings, a second season is a sure thing.

G.

It is. HBO ordered season 2 after the first week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 11:29:28 AM
The finale had the highest ratings of the season.  :)

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/21/ned-who-game-of-thrones-soars-to-ratings-highs-in-season-finale/96133/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2011, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 11:29:28 AM
The finale had the highest ratings of the season.  :)

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/21/ned-who-game-of-thrones-soars-to-ratings-highs-in-season-finale/96133/

Can't be true - I know several people who swore not to even watch the show anymore after they killed Ned!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 11:40:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2011, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 11:29:28 AM
The finale had the highest ratings of the season.  :)

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/06/21/ned-who-game-of-thrones-soars-to-ratings-highs-in-season-finale/96133/

Can't be true - I know several people who swore not to even watch the show anymore after they killed Ned!

:lol:  Same here (well, not "several").  They must've bitched to all their friends who then watched to see what the fuss was about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 11:45:52 AM
I sure hope Sean Bean gets an Emmy for Eddard Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 11:58:11 AM
Peter Dinklage deserves it more, though maybe he can give the other half of his to Bean.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 11:58:54 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2011, 11:58:11 AM
Peter Dinklage deserves it more, though maybe he can give the other half of his to Bean.

:lol:

Dinklage can get his next year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on June 21, 2011, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 10:36:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

Exceptions for LBJ, FDR, TR, JFK and JC
I'd never thought Jean Chrétien was famous in the US too.
I thought he meant Jacques Chirac.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2011, 12:10:38 PM
Quote from: Scipio on June 21, 2011, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2011, 10:36:29 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 21, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Referring to people by their initials is just asking for your listener to go  :huh:

Exceptions for LBJ, FDR, TR, JFK and JC
I'd never thought Jean Chrétien was famous in the US too.
I thought he meant Jacques Chirac.

Jesus Fucking Christ, it's Johnny Cash.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2011, 06:51:55 PM
Raitings are looking good. I wonder how much the budget will increase next season. I'm hoping for $80 million.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F28rmd09.jpg&hash=8c9acebeece42a0daf55246483ecc961c84ad522)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 21, 2011, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2011, 06:51:55 PM
Raitings are looking good. I wonder how much the budget will increase next season. I'm hoping for $80 million.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F28rmd09.jpg&hash=8c9acebeece42a0daf55246483ecc961c84ad522)

I think D&D have at least had the sense not to go over the top with large battle scenes or cgi of dubious quality. They have stayed true to the book, focussed on what was important (the game itself, not the fancy plastic pieces).

I can't but hope that they improve the wolf interactions for the next season, if they can't do it without the dogs wagging their tales then they should keep it as it is...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2011, 07:53:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 21, 2011, 07:32:55 PM
I think D&D have at least had the sense not to go over the top with large battle scenes or cgi of dubious quality. They have stayed true to the book, focussed on what was important (the game itself, not the fancy plastic pieces).

I can't but hope that they improve the wolf interactions for the next season, if they can't do it without the dogs wagging their tales then they should keep it as it is...
The books become much more battle and supernatural as they go on though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 21, 2011, 08:28:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2011, 07:53:10 PM
The books become much more battle and supernatural as they go on though.

Not really.  With the exception of Tyrion's spats as a short God of War almost all the battles take place off screen so to speak.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2011, 09:39:15 PM
 :lol:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfstyG.png&hash=62c27c90757a3bfd6814eaba8b158114ecc57659)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 22, 2011, 08:25:31 AM
 :glare:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2011, 01:04:22 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 22, 2011, 08:25:31 AM
:glare:
+1

I have no idea why people who feel compelled to share cartoons always share extraordinarily lame ones.  I think it is a genetic defect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 22, 2011, 02:12:25 PM
Shit. I finally got around to it and watching it right now. This is the best fucking episode so far, in my opinion. Each scene fucking nails it. Sansa with the heads on spikes. "The King in the North". etc. I'm tearing up constantly, it's so epic. Can't wait for the dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 22, 2011, 02:20:22 PM
And now Tywin vs. Tyrion. Another awesome scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 22, 2011, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 22, 2011, 02:12:25 PM
Shit. I finally got around to it and watching it right now. This is the best fucking episode so far, in my opinion. Each scene fucking nails it. Sansa with the heads on spikes. "The King in the North". etc. I'm tearing up constantly, it's so epic. Can't wait for the dragons.

Spellus?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 22, 2011, 02:38:56 PM
I just teared up twice again: the oath scene with Jon and the pillow scene with Khal Drogo and Danny.

Maybe I'm just in a tearing up mood but this episode rocks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 22, 2011, 02:43:20 PM
They played the right tune, for sure. It was a very emotionally loaded episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 22, 2011, 03:02:36 PM
I also love how the show really opens more plot lines than it resolves. It's like the Battlestar Galactica miniseries - you have this sense that this story is only just beginning - and because you watched all the 10 episodes, you are emotionally invested in these characters.

I guess it was a risky technique but that fucking worked. Now if only the fatman does not die before the books are filmed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 22, 2011, 02:12:25 PM
Shit. I finally got around to it and watching it right now. This is the best fucking episode so far, in my opinion. Each scene fucking nails it. Sansa with the heads on spikes. "The King in the North". etc. I'm tearing up constantly, it's so epic. Can't wait for the dragons.

The pikes were facing the wrong way.
The King in The North scene was chopped way down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:44:48 PM
I didn't see the Tullys bending the knee to Robb.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 22, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:44:48 PM
I didn't see the Tullys bending the knee to Robb.

Tell me, which Tully was there that had the authority to do so?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 22, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:44:48 PM
I didn't see the Tullys bending the knee to Robb.

Tell me, which Tully was there that had the authority to do so?

Exactly. Where the fuck was Edmore and the Blackfish. They were there in the book.
And Catelyns father.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 22, 2011, 07:39:30 PM
They were moved to the second book. The producers felt it would be better to have the entire Catyln's dying dad story in the second series.

I do wonder how they'll have the Blackfish suddenly show up though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 22, 2011, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 22, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:44:48 PM
I didn't see the Tullys bending the knee to Robb.

Tell me, which Tully was there that had the authority to do so?

Exactly. Where the fuck was Edmore and the Blackfish. They were there in the book.
And Catelyns father.

Yep no Tully's in the series....so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 23, 2011, 02:10:37 PM
http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/06/23/game-of-thrones-casting/ (http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/06/23/game-of-thrones-casting/)
HBO's Game of Thrones has made its first casting hire for season 2:

Natalie Dormer, who memorably played the seductive and doomed Anne Boleyn on Showtime's The Tudors, has been added to the fantasy drama's regular cast.

Dormer will play Margaery Tyrell, a (minor spoiler alert) beautiful and shrewd young woman from the influential House Tyrell. She's pledged to marry the late King Robert's brother, Renly Baratheon, as part of House Tyrell's support for his bid to seize the Iron Throne from King Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 23, 2011, 02:29:14 PM
The picure attached to the article is terrible.

I thought she was adorable in the Tudors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 23, 2011, 02:31:17 PM
eww, it is indeed, she looks disabled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 23, 2011, 02:35:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2011, 02:29:14 PM
The picure attached to the article is terrible.

I thought she was adorable in the Tudors.

Agreed on both. Glad she's in it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 23, 2011, 02:44:45 PM
Yeah, she's actually quite hot. :)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi152.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs175%2Fjosephus-07%2Ftudors.jpg&hash=7f22a8182acc61ee234f9b3e90d0764010f50c38)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on June 23, 2011, 02:57:00 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.friendcodes.com%2Fforums%2Fmembers%2F60433-albums9058-picture56997.jpg&hash=5e9b2c2422a87f75ba6872e04cd4c7599d1bb2b9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 23, 2011, 03:07:52 PM
Quote from: Sahib on June 23, 2011, 02:57:00 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.friendcodes.com%2Fforums%2Fmembers%2F60433-albums9058-picture56997.jpg&hash=5e9b2c2422a87f75ba6872e04cd4c7599d1bb2b9)

Blame Martin, he's the Pedobear. Producers don't have that leeway ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 04:08:43 PM
I think she will be perfect as Margaery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 23, 2011, 04:25:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 04:08:43 PM
I think she will be perfect as Margaery.

You're just jealous... first she gets to fuck jonathan rhys meyers then get gets to fuck gethin anthony and gets to hang out with finn jones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 04:45:16 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 23, 2011, 04:25:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 04:08:43 PM
I think she will be perfect as Margaery.

You're just jealous... first she gets to fuck jonathan rhys meyers then get gets to fuck gethin anthony and gets to hang out with finn jones.

I don't understand - what about my post makes me look jealous? I think she fits the role - I wasn't critical or sarcastic.

Besides, it's not like Jonathan Rhys Meyers hasn't fucked guys on screen before.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
Incidentally, I wonder if anyone has written a critique of SOIAF as an example of "leftist fantasy". If it was a typical (read: more conservative) fantasy, then Ned and Robb would be the heroes - instead they are casualties.

The real heroes, in my view - Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion (with a possible secondary "child" cast of Bran and Arya) are outcasts - an exile (and a woman), a bastard and a cripple. If you want to know who has plot immunity in Martin's books, don't look out for princes, knights and lordlings - they never live. Instead, look out for the "broken things".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 23, 2011, 06:16:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 22, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 22, 2011, 04:44:48 PM
I didn't see the Tullys bending the knee to Robb.

Tell me, which Tully was there that had the authority to do so?

Exactly. Where the fuck was Edmore and the Blackfish. They were there in the book.
And Catelyns father.

So, basically, no matter how many times you're told why they were left out, you still want to bitch about it.  Got it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on June 23, 2011, 10:26:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
The real heroes, in my view - Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion (with a possible secondary "child" cast of Bran and Arya) are outcasts - an exile (and a woman), a bastard and a cripple. If you want to know who has plot immunity in Martin's books, don't look out for princes, knights and lordlings - they never live. Instead, look out for the "broken things".

Tyrion lost a nose, Daenerys is barren... And fundamentally Danerys is no different than Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
Incidentally, I wonder if anyone has written a critique of SOIAF as an example of "leftist fantasy". If it was a typical (read: more conservative) fantasy, then Ned and Robb would be the heroes - instead they are casualties.

The real heroes, in my view - Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion (with a possible secondary "child" cast of Bran and Arya) are outcasts - an exile (and a woman), a bastard and a cripple. If you want to know who has plot immunity in Martin's books, don't look out for princes, knights and lordlings - they never live. Instead, look out for the "broken things".
Ned and Robb were heroes, heroes don't always win though.

Jon is a pretty traditional hero, the secret true heir is often a bastard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 24, 2011, 07:52:51 AM
Natalie Dormer is like twice Margaery's age. Not that it makes her bad for the role, but the whole "have people had a chance to sleep with her?" plotline in books 2 to 4 might look weird.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on June 24, 2011, 10:04:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 23, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
Incidentally, I wonder if anyone has written a critique of SOIAF as an example of "leftist fantasy". If it was a typical (read: more conservative) fantasy, then Ned and Robb would be the heroes - instead they are casualties.

The real heroes, in my view - Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion (with a possible secondary "child" cast of Bran and Arya) are outcasts - an exile (and a woman), a bastard and a cripple. If you want to know who has plot immunity in Martin's books, don't look out for princes, knights and lordlings - they never live. Instead, look out for the "broken things".

A princess and two sons of high lords. Yep, real working class heroes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 24, 2011, 10:35:30 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 24, 2011, 10:04:57 AM
A princess and two sons of high lords. Yep, real working class heroes.

Exactly.

One bases her claim to authority and power based on heriditary descent from a brutal conqueror, and engages in such hippyish practices as mass retaliatory crucifixtion.

The second is the son of a powerful feudal baron who is raised to the command an army liberally staffed by rapists, after infiltrating the free peoples beyond the wall as a spy and them betraying them.

The third is a scion of the wealthiest man on the continent, who instead of using his wealth and power to help the simple folk, expends it liberally on prostitutes and poorly disciplined mecenaries known for their brutality and lack of respect for the customary laws of war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 24, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
Sounds pretty leftist to me, though not the kind of left Martinass was thinking about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 24, 2011, 02:12:50 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 24, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
Sounds pretty leftist to me, though not the kind of left Martinass was thinking about.

Oh, it is the kind of leftiness that the kind of leftiness that Marty was thinking about leads to though...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 24, 2011, 02:18:17 PM
Let's not forget that what we traditionally call "the left" are, in Europe, the ruling class, the status quo. Really it's time to call them conservative. Enough time has passed for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2011, 02:18:17 PM
Let's not forget that what we traditionally call "the left" are, in Europe, the ruling class, the status quo. Really it's time to call them conservative. Enough time has passed for that.

Or reactionaries/revanchists.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 24, 2011, 07:37:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 24, 2011, 02:12:50 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 24, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
Sounds pretty leftist to me, though not the kind of left Martinass was thinking about.

Oh, it is the kind of leftiness that the kind of leftiness that Marty was thinking about leads to though...


This line made me dizzy.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 24, 2011, 09:04:40 PM
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2011, 02:18:17 PM
Let's not forget that what we traditionally call "the left" are, in Europe, the ruling class, the status quo. Really it's time to call them conservative. Enough time has passed for that.

Or reactionaries/revanchists.
Revanchists?  I don't see that.  Can you expand on that idea?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2011, 01:38:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 24, 2011, 09:04:40 PM
Quote from: citizen k on June 24, 2011, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2011, 02:18:17 PM
Let's not forget that what we traditionally call "the left" are, in Europe, the ruling class, the status quo. Really it's time to call them conservative. Enough time has passed for that.

Or reactionaries/revanchists.
Revanchists?  I don't see that.  Can you expand on that idea?

It's probably not going to be useful since he was already expanding on Tamas talking out of his ass again. I fail to see how he could call the European left anywhere as "defending the status quo" or better yet, being the "ruling class". I wonder if he means that leaders of the leftist parties (as leaders of other parties) are professional politicians which makes them the "ruling class" but I don't think even Tamas is so idiotic, so perhaps he meant something else. Or perhaps it was some unique Hungarian perspective, as we know his country is quite fucked up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2011, 01:41:13 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 24, 2011, 10:35:30 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 24, 2011, 10:04:57 AM
A princess and two sons of high lords. Yep, real working class heroes.

Exactly.

One bases her claim to authority and power based on heriditary descent from a brutal conqueror, and engages in such hippyish practices as mass retaliatory crucifixtion.

The second is the son of a powerful feudal baron who is raised to the command an army liberally staffed by rapists, after infiltrating the free peoples beyond the wall as a spy and them betraying them.

The third is a scion of the wealthiest man on the continent, who instead of using his wealth and power to help the simple folk, expends it liberally on prostitutes and poorly disciplined mecenaries known for their brutality and lack of respect for the customary laws of war.

Lies. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 25, 2011, 02:18:18 AM
The welfare state, and the state's relatively heavy involvement in regulating the economy is an unqestionable basic law of existence in almost all European countries, and it is so since many, many decades. "The left" has long ceased to be the grand idea of the opressed, waiting to overthrow the ruling class. It's main ideas are as good as dogmas in ruling the European societies (I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, just that this is so), and the only "left vs right" debates are on the extent of the welfare state.
And on wether to stigma jews as "speculators" or "jews"

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 03:36:12 AM
Sorry, Marty. You guys are in power now. We are the revolution.

You're the Evil Empire.  :hmm:




Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 25, 2011, 03:49:16 AM
The Left is retarded and should be ridiculed at every opportunity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2011, 07:06:08 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 03:36:12 AM
Sorry, Marty. You guys are in power now. We are the revolution.

You're the Evil Empire.  :hmm:

Not in Poland. And you are not a revolution - at best you are reactionaries.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 25, 2011, 10:36:21 AM
I love the smell of tardfight in the morning!  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 25, 2011, 10:44:13 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 25, 2011, 10:36:21 AM
I love the smell of tardfight in the morning!  :cool:

Is that why you're always so beliggerent in the mornings?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 25, 2011, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 25, 2011, 03:49:16 AM
The Left is retarded and should be ridiculed at every opportunity.
Since when?
I mean, obviously not always, since the modern right was the left not too long ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 25, 2011, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 25, 2011, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 25, 2011, 03:49:16 AM
The Left is retarded and should be ridiculed at every opportunity.
Since when?
I mean, obviously not always, since the modern right was the left not too long ago.

Ok, now even I have left the track
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 25, 2011, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 25, 2011, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 25, 2011, 03:49:16 AM
The Left is retarded and should be ridiculed at every opportunity.
Since when?
I mean, obviously not always, since the modern right was the left not too long ago.

Does it matter?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: BuddhaRhubarb on June 25, 2011, 06:02:27 PM
Despite having followed this thread.. I do believe I'm going to tackle these books after my vacation. :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 26, 2011, 08:20:51 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gameofthronesofmuppets.com%2Fposter%2FBeakerHoneydew_lg.jpg&hash=6c606ce8e0f2c369119a39ce97eb7afa911498a4)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 26, 2011, 09:07:07 AM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on June 25, 2011, 06:02:27 PM
Despite having followed this thread.. I do believe I'm going to tackle these books after my vacation. :p

Another convert...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2011, 03:43:12 PM
I love it when other readers say stupid shit :

QuoteAs for Renly,I really do not get all these gay jibes as there is nothing to prove that he was attracted to guys in the first place I think if GRRM meant for Renly to be gay he would have described him as such in no uncertain terms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 26, 2011, 03:58:21 PM
Just slap him with the rundown of clues:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/loras_and_renly_gay.html (http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/loras_and_renly_gay.html)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 26, 2011, 11:14:48 PM
New filming location

http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/06/rumor-croatia-to-be-season-two-filming-location/
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinter-is-coming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F06%2FDubrovnik.jpg&hash=35b96e7227196d10dc49f30cef96c7bb6ba37726)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 27, 2011, 12:50:02 AM
Shouldn't there be a palace and cathedral dominating the other buildings? That town looks like suburbs with Mediterranean decor.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2011, 05:11:34 AM
Easy enough to CG in, the walls look a bit...19th century though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
There's a very interesting interview at "Winter is Coming" with the people from the FX company that worked on the first season (link here: http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_VFX_Producer_Lucy_Ainsworth-Taylor/ (http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_VFX_Producer_Lucy_Ainsworth-Taylor/)). Apparently they won't be coming for the second season because the technical needs will be overwhelming for them, citing specifically CG fur, fire and water.

QuoteQ: Will BlueBolt be the lead VFX vendor in the second season? If so, has any preparatory work already started given that cameras are due to roll in late July?

A: Sadly not.  As BlueBolt is a small new VFX house, tackling CG creatures with fur, plus CG fire and water would be too much of a stretch. Although we have all done this many times as individuals at previous companies, BlueBolt's pipeline and development would struggle to do this in the short amount of time needed for the second series.

So, grown up direwolves and big-ass battles are to be expected, I guess.  :mmm:

The pics on the interview reproducing the scenes with and without FX are also quite cool:

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Graphics/Gallery/Various/GameOfThrones_VFX_03.jpg (http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Graphics/Gallery/Various/GameOfThrones_VFX_03.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2011, 05:30:35 AM
They are cool.
Here's a index:
http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Graphics/Gallery/Various/GameOfThrones_VFX_06.jpg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 27, 2011, 06:34:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
There's a very interesting interview at "Winter is Coming" with the people from the FX company that worked on the first season (link here: http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_VFX_Producer_Lucy_Ainsworth-Taylor/ (http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_VFX_Producer_Lucy_Ainsworth-Taylor/)). Apparently they won't be coming for the second season because the technical needs will be overwhelming for them, citing specifically CG fur, fire and water.

They could still do some work in a secondary capacity if I read that interview right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 27, 2011, 06:34:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
There's a very interesting interview at "Winter is Coming" with the people from the FX company that worked on the first season (link here: http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_VFX_Producer_Lucy_Ainsworth-Taylor/ (http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_VFX_Producer_Lucy_Ainsworth-Taylor/)). Apparently they won't be coming for the second season because the technical needs will be overwhelming for them, citing specifically CG fur, fire and water.

They could still do some work in a secondary capacity if I read that interview right.

Yup, but I'd guess that it'll depend on the new main FX providers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:06:24 PM
This is how the Twins should have looked like in the show:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgameofthrones.net%2Fimages%2FHouse_Frey%2Fthe-twins-song-of-ice-and-fire.jpg&hash=4ba04da61cc0a78133b2831b1dfe6a9c02477617)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 27, 2011, 02:08:08 PM
Don't remember that place from Meet The Twins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2011, 02:09:42 PM
Seems awfully 2D for a TV show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:10:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2011, 02:09:42 PM
Seems awfully 2D for a TV show.

I meant the castle design.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:14:09 PM
Compare the two castle designs and tell me which one did you visualize while reading the books:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgameofthrones.net%2Fimages%2FHouse_Frey%2Fthe-twins-song-of-ice-and-fire.jpg&hash=4ba04da61cc0a78133b2831b1dfe6a9c02477617)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwatchplayread.com%2Ffiles%2F2011%2F06%2Fvlcsnap-00001.jpg&hash=1e248c035cceea77d3df094537842566bb10c1c7)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110614221414%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2Fe%2Fe8%2FTwins_long.jpg&hash=54ba3ac7aed264754f7c53723cbbb9c876852445)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110615151135%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2F6%2F6a%2FThe_Twins_looking_west.jpg&hash=69b2e25ae0e47242befd2f46a5e9fe4de8181999)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
I certainly expected the twins to be no more than bowshot away from each other, with the smaller river tower in the center.
And to be full castles with stables, barracks, training yards, archer ranges, the whole nine yards.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2011, 02:17:20 PM
I thought it was like the lower ones.  I thought it was literally twin towers with a bridge between them like Frey Heraldry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on June 27, 2011, 02:17:24 PM
Second.

But granted, the first certainly makes more sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 27, 2011, 02:18:20 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 27, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
I certainly expected the twins to be no more than bowshot away from each other, with the smaller river tower in the center.
And to be full castles with stables, barracks, training yards, archer ranges, the whole nine yards.

Well apparently you were wrong. No biggie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2011, 02:20:56 PM
Yeah, wasn't there meant to be a middle castle? :hmm:
Them being far apart from each other makes sense though, if they were near to each other then crossings wouldn't be so rare.

With the Twins I'm concerned about how small they were, that room with Catelyn met Fray....it was tiny. And thats supposed to be his hall where the red wedding will be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 11:56:38 AM
Apparently Amazon.de messed up its orders and has sent a batch of books already. Oh, German efficiency, what happened to you?  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:00:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 11:56:38 AM
Apparently Amazon.de messed up its orders and has sent a batch of books already. Oh, German efficiency, what happened to you?  :lol:

Yep a bunch of Germans have the book already.  Look for a scanned copy being distributed at a file sharing site near you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 28, 2011, 12:01:00 PM
Every set so far was small for you guys. Maybe you should rethink how you picture the sets in your mind because apparently the writer disagrees with you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 12:41:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:00:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 11:56:38 AM
Apparently Amazon.de messed up its orders and has sent a batch of books already. Oh, German efficiency, what happened to you?  :lol:

Yep a bunch of Germans have the book already.  Look for a scanned copy being distributed at a file sharing site near you.

A rundown of the POVs is now available, with some really intriguing descriptions...  :ph34r:

If anyone wants to check them, they're here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/bdi30b (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/bdi30b)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 12:41:09 PM
A rundown of the POVs is now available, with some really intriguing descriptions...  :ph34r:

If anyone wants to check them, they're here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/bdi30b (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/bdi30b)

Holy shit that is fucking awesome.  I totally did not see a few of those coming.

Damn it come on July 12th.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 28, 2011, 12:46:41 PM
Jon Connington lives? He'd be the guy who knew what happened at the TOJ.

My conspiracy mongering had him dressing up as Rhaegar and dying in his place at the Trident.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:48:06 PM
Yeah I did not want to mention any of them by name.  I think though that is not the same guy but rather his son.  The POV of the epilogue was particularly shocking.  The fall of House /////?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 28, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
What's with all the name-changing by the Greyjoys?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 28, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
What's with all the name-changing by the Greyjoys?  :huh:

He did it in AFFC also.  I kind of like it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:48:06 PM
The POV of the epilogue was particularly shocking.

Why is it all that shocking?  There's no guarantee that the epilogue character bites it, though I would be immensely surprised if they did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 28, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
So we're speaking spoilers for a book nobody has read yet?
Better avoid this thread from now on
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
So we're speaking spoilers for a book nobody has read yet?
Better avoid this thread from now on

I'm deliberately keeping vague about it, myself.  You won't see me posting any names, unlike Viking.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 28, 2011, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
So we're speaking spoilers for a book nobody has read yet?
Better avoid this thread from now on

I'm deliberately keeping vague about it, myself.  You won't see me posting any names, unlike Viking.   :rolleyes:

So spoiling the TV show was ok but the book is off limit?

I'll transcript the damn thing here.*

*Not really, I'm lazy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:51:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:48:06 PM
The POV of the epilogue was particularly shocking.

Why is it all that shocking?  There's no guarantee that the epilogue character bites it, though I would be immensely surprised if they did.

Oh yes there is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
So we're speaking spoilers for a book nobody has read yet?
Better avoid this thread from now on

No just Viking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 28, 2011, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
So we're speaking spoilers for a book nobody has read yet?
Better avoid this thread from now on

I'm deliberately keeping vague about it, myself.  You won't see me posting any names, unlike Viking.   :rolleyes:

So spoiling the TV show was ok but the book is off limit?

The book's been out for 15 years.  Snape kills Dumbledore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:51:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:48:06 PM
The POV of the epilogue was particularly shocking.

Why is it all that shocking?  There's no guarantee that the epilogue character bites it, though I would be immensely surprised if they did.

Oh yes there is.

Link?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:54:48 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:53:08 PM
Link?

No link just tradition and my opinion.  That POV is going down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:56:36 PM
Tradition?  Well, I suppose there's the "tradition" of one epilogue character biting it.  The stronger tradition is that the prologue characters all die.  If the character were there instead of the epilogue, I might agree with you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:56:36 PM
Tradition?  Well, I suppose there's the "tradition" of one epilogue character biting it.  The stronger tradition is that the prologue characters all die.  If the character were there instead of the epilogue, I might agree with you.

All epilogue and prologue characters bite it.  Truth.

But it does not really matter if you agree with me or not.  We will soon find out who is right and who is dead...and the dead person will be that POV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 28, 2011, 05:49:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 28, 2011, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
So we're speaking spoilers for a book nobody has read yet?
Better avoid this thread from now on

I'm deliberately keeping vague about it, myself.  You won't see me posting any names, unlike Viking.   :rolleyes:

So spoiling the TV show was ok but the book is off limit?

The book's been out for 15 years.  Snape kills Dumbledore.

I have no problem with Spoilers of any kind. I'm just saying there shouldn't be any difference here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 28, 2011, 05:56:48 PM
Who is Varamyr Sixskins?

A cousin of Boromir?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 06:01:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:59:17 PMAll epilogue and prologue characters bite it.  Truth.

There has only been one epilogue, so I doubt you can make a rule out of it. As for prologues, the one from the 4rd book doesn't end with the characters dead, but in impending doom.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 06:07:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 28, 2011, 06:01:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 01:59:17 PMAll epilogue and prologue characters bite it.  Truth.

There has only been one epilogue, so I doubt you can make a rule out of it.

Which was my point, of course, but Valmy would prefer to stick his fingers in his ears on the matter.  I'm not saying it's not possible for the character to bite it (in fact, I would expect it), but it's no guarantee just because they're in the epilogue.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:11:38 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2011, 06:07:33 PM
Which was my point, of course, but Valmy would prefer to stick his fingers in his ears on the matter.

I get what you guys are saying I just disagree.  I think GRRM absolutely intends for prologue and epilogues to end with the death of the POV character.  And it was the 3rd book where you do not actually see the POV die.

I am not even sure what there is to debate.  Do you have any evidence the character will not die?  What truths am I sticking my fingers in my ears to avoid?  So far every single prologue and epilogue character has died.

In any case I just found the implications of who said epilogue chapter was very interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:13:42 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 28, 2011, 05:56:48 PM
Who is Varamyr Sixskins?

A Wildling character from Storm of Swords.  Melissandre burned an eagle he had warged into when Stannis Baratheons army arrived north of The Wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 29, 2011, 01:38:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 28, 2011, 05:56:48 PM
Who is Varamyr Sixskins?

A cousin of Boromir?

He is a younger brother of Forskins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 29, 2011, 02:09:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:11:38 PMIn any case I just found the implications of who said epilogue chapter was very interesting.

Oh, that's undoubtly true, as an epilogue is a perfect way to close the book with a bang or an unexpected twist, as Martin did in the 3rd book with Lady Stoneheart. Whatever happens to the POV character in the epilogue, it's going to be a nail biting way to end the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 29, 2011, 07:39:58 AM
The maps for the new book have already been leaked.

Valyria and Slaver's Bay: http://guardiaoscura.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/valyria.jpg (http://guardiaoscura.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/valyria.jpg)

Free cities: http://guardiaoscura.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ciudades.jpg (http://guardiaoscura.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ciudades.jpg)

Beyond the Wall: http://guardiaoscura.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/muro.jpg (http://guardiaoscura.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/muro.jpg)

It keeps surprising me how close to Westeros the Free Cities seem to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 29, 2011, 07:57:24 AM
hmm, so in the books too Braavos is super north.
Less Venice than Amsterdam then.
Very unexpected.
Hard to imagine they could stay hidden so long at such an obvious strategic point
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 29, 2011, 08:21:30 AM
But, remember, Braavos is on level with The Twins and Lys is on level with Sunspear (in Dorne)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2011, 09:08:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 29, 2011, 07:57:24 AM
Hard to imagine they could stay hidden so long at such an obvious strategic point

Funny that was my exact same thought :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 29, 2011, 09:21:07 AM
Damn, the places I get my info from are starting to get filled with potentially super-spoilery material. The next few weeks will be extremely tough...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 29, 2011, 09:23:17 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2011, 09:21:07 AM
Damn, the places I get my info from are starting to get filled with potentially super-spoilery material. The next few weeks will be extremely tough...

Well, 13 days from now 800+ pages of spoilery material will be released.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2011, 09:23:36 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2011, 09:21:07 AM
Damn, the places I get my info from are starting to get filled with potentially super-spoilery material. The next few weeks will be extremely tough...

I was so glad when westeros.org put on their gag order on discussing DWD.  Of course that also means nobody has anything interesting to say for the next two weeks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 29, 2011, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2011, 09:21:07 AM
Damn, the places I get my info from are starting to get filled with potentially super-spoilery material. The next few weeks will be extremely tough...

I suggest deleting the bookmark to the site until you've finished the book...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 29, 2011, 07:38:32 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 29, 2011, 07:57:24 AM
hmm, so in the books too Braavos is super north.
Less Venice than Amsterdam then.
Very unexpected.
Hard to imagine they could stay hidden so long at such an obvious strategic point

What you mean hidden?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2011, 10:16:00 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 29, 2011, 07:38:32 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 29, 2011, 07:57:24 AM
hmm, so in the books too Braavos is super north.
Less Venice than Amsterdam then.
Very unexpected.
Hard to imagine they could stay hidden so long at such an obvious strategic point

What you mean hidden?

It was founded by slaves and other scum who escaped from old Valyria and hid from their former masters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 30, 2011, 05:55:31 AM
And there they are right at the Horn of Esteros, a very obvious place indeed. There's not even all that many islands for them to hide amongst.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 01, 2011, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 30, 2011, 05:55:31 AM
And there they are right at the Horn of Esteros, a very obvious place indeed. There's not even all that many islands for them to hide amongst.

Ok. I see what you mean.
Venice is at the end of a gulf and away from the traditional sea routes between sicily and greece, and Rome or Masssilia and greece, while any northern trade route in the eastern continent in westeros (whatever its name is) would have to sail in front of Braavos.
What if Braavos sea access is hidden the way the magellean straits are hidden, wiht endless bays and twisting coastline?

Also, Valyria was in the south of the continent, so in a sense Braavos is as far away from the Valyrian center of power as you can physically get without crossing into Westeros.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 01, 2011, 03:53:37 PM
I like Bronn in the books more than Bronn in the TV show.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on July 02, 2011, 07:29:48 AM
LOL Siege I like your sig, but you are not good looking, hun.  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 04, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
NYTimes paperback best seller list

Game of Thrones is #1
Clash of Kings is #4
Storm of Swords is #6
A Feast for Crows is #8

http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2011-07-10/mass-market-paperback/list.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 04, 2011, 08:11:55 AM
Time for some dancing dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 04, 2011, 08:52:35 AM
8 more days...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 09:01:53 AM
I have it preordered on my Kindle :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 04, 2011, 09:03:14 AM
FU.  I have to wait until mail delivery around 1.   :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Agelastus on July 07, 2011, 07:58:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Gups on April 15, 2011, 03:24:05 AM
I read Gardens of the Moon recently. If you like reading D&D scenarios it's OK I guess. Won't bother with the rest of the series.
Agree.  I felt the same way about Wizards' First Rule (or something like that), which also spawned many sequels in spite of being just the exact Star Wars story only without space ships.

I understand perfectly why modern fantasy is so disdained.  It sucks.

Extremely belatedly, and also wishing that this forum had a multiquote system as I'd have liked to have included other posts from Grumbler and Raz.



Erikson's books improve; the two book climax of the series is well plotted, very satisfying, and leaves you guessing as to what certain characters exact plans and motivations are until the end.

It does, however, take an awfully long time to get there, and I think he could have cut the equivalent of at least three books from the sequence (since, for example, the fourth volume has a several hundred page first part that predates the previous three books, and the fifth volume, in its' entirety, takes place before the previous four.) His magic system is somewhat confusing as well, as the "warrens" the mages use are both sources of power and dimensions that can be travelled to.

"Gardens of the Moon" is distinctly average; but the third book, "Memories of Ice", is actually one of my favourite books of all time. Before my copy started falling apart, it was one of the books I dragged out to read the odd section of most often.


----------------

And Grumbler? Whether you meant it in jest or not, your subsequent post to the above flattered me immensely.

I'll drop the "Dear Boy" from now on...sorry...


-----------------------


And Raz? I can't recall - were you a member of Kapland? That "Lego buttplug" thing was the custom title Kap gave me over there after a particular chat session; I'd consider my usage of it to be an "in memoriam" tribute.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 07, 2011, 08:47:10 PM
Word on the street has it that Gwendoline Christie has been cast as Brienne.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2FPicture80.png&hash=aa8e2d37e6d4cf9d6e93804c56751263a032ae54)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:06:23 PM
I guess they can make her a lot homelier with makeup?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 07, 2011, 09:07:17 PM
Cut her hair really short and muck her up and I think she'll fit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
She's 6'3", that's the important part.

Also, Asha's been renamed. <_<

http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/07/asha-renamed-and-cast/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 08, 2011, 01:52:44 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 07, 2011, 08:47:10 PM
Word on the street has it that Gwendoline Christie has been cast as Brienne.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2FPicture80.png&hash=aa8e2d37e6d4cf9d6e93804c56751263a032ae54)

Already confirmed by Martin himself.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/227044.html (http://grrm.livejournal.com/227044.html)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 08, 2011, 05:02:30 AM
She looks OK :mellow:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 08, 2011, 07:12:27 AM
She's much cuter than Brienne, but that's a forgivable deviation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:16:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:06:23 PM
I guess they can make her a lot homelier with makeup?

More homelier? I think that's quite enough already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
Also, Asha's been renamed. <_<

Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 08, 2011, 07:38:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
Also, Asha's been renamed. <_<

Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.

They should have renamed Osha instead. Naming her after the rebranded fertilizer business of Norsk Hydro  (http://www.yara.com/) annoys me
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:39:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.

Osha, Asha. The Roberts, atleast one's dead now.

Ok, you are right. It's not that of an issue.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 08:00:30 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
Also, Asha's been renamed. <_<

So?  They renamed John Arryn's son but it really made no difference.  I am just glad Asha/Yara is being cast at all considering her limited role in books 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 08:02:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:16:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:06:23 PM
I guess they can make her a lot homelier with makeup?

More homelier? I think that's quite enough already.

I know the women of Quebec are all stunning beauties and sexpots but where I come from she would be a five not a one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 08:05:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 08:02:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:16:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:06:23 PM
I guess they can make her a lot homelier with makeup?

More homelier? I think that's quite enough already.

I know the women of Quebec are all stunning beauties and sexpots but where I come from she would be a five not a one.

Wait, homelier = 1?  Guess I misunderstanding the meaning of the term. I think she's pretty cute & she has a girl next door look. Which is what I thought homely look meant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 08:06:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 08, 2011, 01:52:44 AM
Already confirmed by Martin himself.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/227044.html (http://grrm.livejournal.com/227044.html)

QuoteHabemus Briennem

Nice!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 08:08:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 08:05:16 AM
Wait, homelier = 1?  Guess I misunderstanding the meaning of the term. I think she's pretty cute & she has a girl next door look. Which is what I thought homely look meant.

Homely, for a person, means ugly.  I think it originally was a compliment like how unpretentious she is as opposed to the vain women who paint their faces and wear scandulous clothes but puritan chic is just not what it once was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 08, 2011, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.
Yeah, I quite liked the multiple Roberts actually, fit in well with the medievalesque setting.
And he doesn't do it anywhere near as much as history...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 08, 2011, 08:49:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.
Yeah, I quite liked the multiple Roberts actually, fit in well with the medievalesque setting.
And he doesn't do it anywhere near as much as history...

Almost as fun as all the Walders, Waldrens and Waldas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:26:09 AM
So, is ADWD out yet?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 11:27:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:26:09 AM
So, is ADWD out yet?

July 12th.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 11:27:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:26:09 AM
So, is ADWD out yet?

July 12th.

Alright. 4 days to go untill I spoil the hell out of you guys.  :bowler:

:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on July 08, 2011, 02:41:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 08, 2011, 08:49:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.
Yeah, I quite liked the multiple Roberts actually, fit in well with the medievalesque setting.
And he doesn't do it anywhere near as much as history...

Almost as fun as all the Walders, Waldrens and Waldas.
God forbid they make a miniseries about the Scottish border during Elizabeth's reign....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 02:48:57 PM
Quote from: Scipio on July 08, 2011, 02:41:23 PM
God forbid they make a miniseries about the Scottish border during Elizabeth's reign....
The book has been written.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_-cwzOXdvZ24%2FS14xYJE2CcI%2FAAAAAAAAAaU%2FkMn5CLeDu3g%2Fs320%2Fsteel%2Bbonnets.jpg&hash=32d32ca98d366730241599eaab33576216c01df2)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 08, 2011, 03:00:29 PM
edited: to aid Berkut's flow of the thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 03:09:20 PM
Wow, we can't get anything past him, can we?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 08, 2011, 03:23:34 PM
Apologies, I missed the posts where it was mentioned.  I didn't realize that many posts had been added since I last saw the thread.  I saw only the few before mine discussing other topics.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 08, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: Scipio on July 08, 2011, 02:41:23 PM
God forbid they make a miniseries about the Scottish border during Elizabeth's reign....

That could be pretty great actually......
A low down affair, not about the great people of the era but about a Reaver clan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 08, 2011, 03:33:30 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 08, 2011, 03:23:34 PM
Apologies, I missed the posts where it was mentioned.  I didn't realize that many posts had been added since I last saw the thread.  I saw only the few before mine discussing other topics.

Are you a retard?
Stop wasting my fucking time!

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 08, 2011, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 08, 2011, 03:33:30 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 08, 2011, 03:23:34 PM
Apologies, I missed the posts where it was mentioned.  I didn't realize that many posts had been added since I last saw the thread.  I saw only the few before mine discussing other topics.

Are you a retard?
Stop wasting my fucking time!

Says the guy who can't be bothered to look up something he forgot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 08, 2011, 03:36:55 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 08, 2011, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 08, 2011, 03:33:30 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 08, 2011, 03:23:34 PM
Apologies, I missed the posts where it was mentioned.  I didn't realize that many posts had been added since I last saw the thread.  I saw only the few before mine discussing other topics.

Are you a retard?
Stop wasting my fucking time!

Says the guy who can't be bothered to look up something he forgot.

I have PTSD. I forget everything.
I even forget that I can google what I forget.

Anyway, FUCK YOU!!!!!!1111

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Agelastus on July 08, 2011, 03:44:51 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: Scipio on July 08, 2011, 02:41:23 PM
God forbid they make a miniseries about the Scottish border during Elizabeth's reign....

That could be pretty great actually......
A low down affair, not about the great people of the era but about a Reaver clan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borderers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 03:48:39 PM
So its been several years since I read the series.  I had intentions of re-reading them before ADWD came out, but that has gone nowhere fast.

Do I pick up ADWD now, because I still remember the overall plot, or do I go back and read them in order (as I definitely don't remember all the details) and risk having ADWD spoiled for me by the time I get to it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 08, 2011, 03:52:29 PM
Read ADWD now.  If you need to review anything check this website: http://towerofthehand.com/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 08, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on July 08, 2011, 03:44:51 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: Scipio on July 08, 2011, 02:41:23 PM
God forbid they make a miniseries about the Scottish border during Elizabeth's reign....

That could be pretty great actually......
A low down affair, not about the great people of the era but about a Reaver clan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borderers
:o
To the torrent machine!
I was thinking it would be a bit like a western too...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: syk on July 10, 2011, 08:43:50 AM
I'm only half through A Clash of Kings but the one spoiler I'd like to read is if Syrio Forel returns at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 10, 2011, 07:14:29 PM
Not definitely no.
Though there are theories. Ones I find very unlikely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: syk on July 10, 2011, 07:45:48 PM
The one I read was Jaqen = Syrio. Don't think so. The only thing that seems to connect them was both being Braavosi. Anyway, Syrio in all his greasiness is a rather cool character and I'd like to see him return.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 10, 2011, 08:50:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.
Yeah, I quite liked the multiple Roberts actually, fit in well with the medievalesque setting.
And he doesn't do it anywhere near as much as history...

I remember reading one historical novel where half the cast had the same name.  The author fixed this by using different variations of the name.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 11, 2011, 03:20:23 AM
Quote from: syk on July 10, 2011, 07:45:48 PM
The one I read was Jaqen = Syrio. Don't think so. The only thing that seems to connect them was both being Braavosi. Anyway, Syrio in all his greasiness is a rather cool character and I'd like to see him return.

Jaqen is not from Braavos but from Lorath, although he trained as a Faceless Man in Braavos. Then again I wouldn't extract much from Jaqen's background, as it was an assumed identity after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 11, 2011, 03:38:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 10, 2011, 08:50:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 08, 2011, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 07:17:30 AM
Tell GRRM to stop naming everyone with the same sounding names.
:huh: GRRM's writing has many faults, but similar-sounding character names are not one of them.
Yeah, I quite liked the multiple Roberts actually, fit in well with the medievalesque setting.
And he doesn't do it anywhere near as much as history...

I remember reading one historical novel where half the cast had the same name.  The author fixed this by using different variations of the name.

Martin also used that argument as a small joke in one of the Dunk & Egg short stories. A small noble made a levy in his villages and out of the 10 able men he recruited, 3 or 4 had the same name, so they had to come up with ways to tell them apart, and finally relied on using their villages' name as their surname, IIRC. Then there was the problem of two of the guys coming from the same village. :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 19, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/07/19/stannis-melisandre/ (http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/07/19/stannis-melisandre/)
Melisandre and Stannis cast.  I am... not thrilled judging by the shots they have in the article and a quick google pic search.  Also, apologies to Berkut if this has been posted already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 19, 2011, 02:31:23 PM
Very thrilled with the actor for Stannis.  He was a great Thomas Jefferson.

I am not familiar with the actress they got for Melisandre.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 19, 2011, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 19, 2011, 02:31:23 PM
Very thrilled with the actor for Stannis.  He was a great Thomas Jefferson.

I am not familiar with the actress they got for Melisandre.
Haven't seen John Adams yet.  He's good though?  Nice.  I think the Melisandre actress played Tom Cruise's wife in Valkyrie.  She just doesn't seem like she's attractive enough to pull it off, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 19, 2011, 03:14:32 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 19, 2011, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 19, 2011, 02:31:23 PM
Very thrilled with the actor for Stannis.  He was a great Thomas Jefferson.

I am not familiar with the actress they got for Melisandre.
Haven't seen John Adams yet.  He's good though?  Nice.  I think the Melisandre actress played Tom Cruise's wife in Valkyrie.  She just doesn't seem like she's attractive enough to pull it off, but we'll see.

Yes, she doesn't have the voluptuous red haired milf vibe I was hoping for, but shit, you cant accuse her of not being hott enough.

Dillane's Jefferson seems to indicate that he might be suited to play Stannis.

So far I approve. And to be honest, only my opinion matters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 19, 2011, 06:18:22 PM
The guy they picked for Stannis is excellent--he was great as Thomas Jefferson.

I'm less sure about the pick for Melisandre, but that may be because I don't think the actress is busty enough.  Then again, that was also an early issue with Cersei's casting...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 19, 2011, 06:52:32 PM
Stannis quite looks the part. Ecclestoneish. Never seen him in anything though. And he's old apparently, got 10 years on Addy. Guess he doesn't really look it though.

Mel...No. She doesn't look the part at all. I was expecting a more exotic look. And hot. She was in Black Book apparently. Meh.

___


http://www.zimbio.com/Sean+Bean/articles/If-pBKPbr3o/Sean+Bean+Game+Thrones+Season+2+Bring+Back

lol.
Though I am very hopeful that they do some prequel scenes. I'd love to see some flashes from the Tower of Joy or the Trident.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on July 19, 2011, 07:05:17 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 19, 2011, 02:54:20 PMHaven't seen John Adams yet.  He's good though?  Nice.

before i read the quote from valmy i thought you meant paul giamatti :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 19, 2011, 09:01:17 PM
Liam Cunningham (First Knight, Outcasts, Harry Brown) has been cast as Davos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Quote from: Viking on July 19, 2011, 03:14:32 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 19, 2011, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 19, 2011, 02:31:23 PM
Very thrilled with the actor for Stannis.  He was a great Thomas Jefferson.

I am not familiar with the actress they got for Melisandre.
Haven't seen John Adams yet.  He's good though?  Nice.  I think the Melisandre actress played Tom Cruise's wife in Valkyrie.  She just doesn't seem like she's attractive enough to pull it off, but we'll see.

Yes, she doesn't have the voluptuous red haired milf vibe I was hoping for, but shit, you cant accuse her of not being hott enough.

Dillane's Jefferson seems to indicate that he might be suited to play Stannis.

So far I approve. And to be honest, only my opinion matters.

Looks hot as hell to me.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinter-is-coming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2Fvan-houten-and-dillane.jpg&hash=3dcc9680b67aa2aa2a725fb727a7f23d1a76f3cd)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 02:39:59 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 19, 2011, 06:18:22 PMI'm less sure about the pick for Melisandre, but that may be because I don't think the actress is busty enough.  Then again, that was also an early issue with Cersei's casting...

Caliga, is that you? How did you hack into Habbaku's account?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 20, 2011, 02:43:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Looks hot as hell to me.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinter-is-coming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2Fvan-houten-and-dillane.jpg&hash=3dcc9680b67aa2aa2a725fb727a7f23d1a76f3cd)
Don't get me wrong, she's attractive.  Melisandre, as written though, is very, very attractive.  Internet level hott.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 20, 2011, 03:01:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 02:39:59 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 19, 2011, 06:18:22 PMI'm less sure about the pick for Melisandre, but that may be because I don't think the actress is busty enough.  Then again, that was also an early issue with Cersei's casting...

Caliga, is that you? How did you hack into Habbaku's account?

Let's face it; for all her acting chops, Lena Headey is not a physical match for Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on July 20, 2011, 03:04:07 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 20, 2011, 02:43:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Looks hot as hell to me.

Don't get me wrong, she's attractive.  Melisandre, as written though, is very, very attractive.  Internet level hott.

:cry: :weep:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.idealaunch.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fbeware.jpg&hash=9201562cd62e794b8150f7b3a03b276d8d2fad21)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 03:32:50 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 20, 2011, 03:01:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 02:39:59 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 19, 2011, 06:18:22 PMI'm less sure about the pick for Melisandre, but that may be because I don't think the actress is busty enough.  Then again, that was also an early issue with Cersei's casting...

Caliga, is that you? How did you hack into Habbaku's account?

Let's face it; for all her acting chops, Lena Headey is not a physical match for Cersei.

I prefer a good actress that might not be as physically stunning as the character's description from the books (which sometimes is borderline adolescent mental masturbation) than a bombshell that fits the look but can't act as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 20, 2011, 03:48:55 AM
Quote from: Slargos on July 20, 2011, 03:04:07 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 20, 2011, 02:43:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Looks hot as hell to me.

Don't get me wrong, she's attractive.  Melisandre, as written though, is very, very attractive.  Internet level hott.

:cry: :weep:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.idealaunch.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fbeware.jpg&hash=9201562cd62e794b8150f7b3a03b276d8d2fad21)
See:  The next post by The Larch.  RR makes a lot of his females insanely hot as per description.  I rather enjoyed Headey as Cersei, so I'll run with the actress for Melisandre for now.  Hod willing, she's a great actress who can pull off the other aspects of the character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 04:53:41 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 20, 2011, 03:48:55 AM
Quote from: Slargos on July 20, 2011, 03:04:07 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 20, 2011, 02:43:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Looks hot as hell to me.

Don't get me wrong, she's attractive.  Melisandre, as written though, is very, very attractive.  Internet level hott.
:cry: :weep:
See:  The next post by The Larch.  RR makes a lot of his females insanely hot as per description.  I rather enjoyed Headey as Cersei, so I'll run with the actress for Melisandre for now.  Hod willing, she's a great actress who can pull off the other aspects of the character.

A lot of Martin's descriptions for his characters are extremely exagerated (I think that I already talked about that a while ago), to the point of making it very difficult for decent actors to be cast for those roles while being 100% faithful to the source. It's not just hot females (Cersei and Melissandre), it's also extremely ugly people (Tyrion, Brienne), fat people (Illyrio, Lord Manderly), big people (The Mountain, the Umbers), and so on and so forth. Thus, for the series the more exagerated features are evened out in order to get a reasonably sized pool of people able to play the role, and that means forgetting about getting a vintage Jenna Jameson to play Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on July 20, 2011, 05:38:52 AM
One could also argue that all the character descriptions are seen through POVs, so any hotness, ugliness, fatness, etc, might be exagerrated in the viewer's mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 20, 2011, 05:38:52 AM
One could also argue that all the character descriptions are seen through POVs, so any hotness, ugliness, fatness, etc, might be exagerrated in the viewer's mind.

Not everything, plenty of descriptions are stated as a matter of fact, such as Tyrion's and Brienne's ugliness for instance, both through other people's eyes and through their own. Sure some things are going to be subjective, and more so when the POV character is one of the young kids, but others are reinforced constantly and by the characters themselves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 06:36:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 05:58:12 AM
Not everything, plenty of descriptions are stated as a matter of fact, such as Tyrion's and Brienne's ugliness for instance, both through other people's eyes and through their own. Sure some things are going to be subjective, and more so when the POV character is one of the young kids, but others are reinforced constantly and by the characters themselves.
I don't recall any character descriptions that were not part of a POV, and so I don't know how many could be "stated as a matter of fact."  The primary impressions we have of Tyrion's or Brienne's ugliness comes from the characters themselves.  You would be correct to note that these could only be exaggerations, because other characters see them as unattractive.   Still, they are almost certainly mostly exaggerations.

Some statements (maybe the ones you referred to) are "factual" like Gregor Clegane's 8-foot stature.  Martin was writing a fantasy with magic and whatnot, so he could indulge his taste for the physically bizarre as well.  I don't think the show has to (or even can) follow suit.

I have been happy with the show's casting.  If the people who cast Renly and Ned and Tyrion and Tywin and Littlefinger say that Carice van Houten will make a good Melisandre, I'll take their word for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on July 20, 2011, 06:38:11 AM
The POVs aren't written in the first person. The narrative voice comes through frequently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 06:46:38 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 20, 2011, 06:38:11 AM
The POVs aren't written in the first person. The narrative voice comes through frequently.
Good point.  The problem is telling when Martin is seeing something as Martin and when he is seeing it as the character.

The point remains, though, that whether Tyrion Lannister is less attractive than Peter Dinklage or not shouldn't be a major concern of the casting department.  Diklage is "unattractive enough."  Ditto for the Melisandre and van Houton's "hotness."

Martin is writing in a descriptive style, at which he is good.  Some exaggeration is probably necessary to distinguish his characters.  In TV, that's not a problem; we can tell them at sight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on July 20, 2011, 08:37:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 20, 2011, 05:38:52 AM
One could also argue that all the character descriptions are seen through POVs, so any hotness, ugliness, fatness, etc, might be exagerrated in the viewer's mind.

Not everything, plenty of descriptions are stated as a matter of fact, such as Tyrion's and Brienne's ugliness for instance, both through other people's eyes and through their own. Sure some things are going to be subjective, and more so when the POV character is one of the young kids, but others are reinforced constantly and by the characters themselves.

I actually wondered about Brienne. Sure, she wasn't smoking, but I got the impression a lot of the reason she was perceived as ugly was very Westerosi, and not reasons we'd find her ugly...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on July 20, 2011, 08:37:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 20, 2011, 05:38:52 AM
One could also argue that all the character descriptions are seen through POVs, so any hotness, ugliness, fatness, etc, might be exagerrated in the viewer's mind.

Not everything, plenty of descriptions are stated as a matter of fact, such as Tyrion's and Brienne's ugliness for instance, both through other people's eyes and through their own. Sure some things are going to be subjective, and more so when the POV character is one of the young kids, but others are reinforced constantly and by the characters themselves.

I actually wondered about Brienne. Sure, she wasn't smoking, but I got the impression a lot of the reason she was perceived as ugly was very Westerosi, and not reasons we'd find her ugly...

A lot had to do with her being manly/not womanly and awkward, but she also had some features that were objectively not appealing. This is a description of her from the chapter where she makes her first appearance:

QuoteShe has large, blue eyes, straw-colored hair, broad, coarse features, and a flat face. Her teeth are prominent and crooked, her mouth is too wide, her lips are swollen, her nose is battered and has been broken more than once, and her face is covered in freckles. She is tall and ungainly, thick for a woman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
QuoteI don't recall any character descriptions that were not part of a POV, and so I don't know how many could be "stated as a matter of fact."  The primary impressions we have of Tyrion's or Brienne's ugliness comes from the characters themselves.  You would be correct to note that these could only be exaggerations, because other characters see them as unattractive.   Still, they are almost certainly mostly exaggerations.
I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.


Brienne: Yeah, she was ugly. I suppose in a culture that values beefy manly women she might be looked at better but not liking that is hardly unique to Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 09:39:26 AM
A lot had to do with her being manly/not womanly and awkward, but she also had some features that were objectively not appealing. This is a description of her from the chapter where she makes her first appearance:

QuoteShe has large, blue eyes, straw-colored hair, broad, coarse features, and a flat face. Her teeth are prominent and crooked, her mouth is too wide, her lips are swollen, her nose is battered and has been broken more than once, and her face is covered in freckles. She is tall and ungainly, thick for a woman.
This isn't an objective description, though; "coarse" features are a value judgement, as is the mouth being "too wide," her being "ungainly," and how "thick" you have to be to be "thick for a woman."

Even the "prominence" of teeth is subjective, as is how "crooked" they have to be to pass the subjective threshold between crooked and straight.  The nose having been broken more than once is, I agree, objective.  That's about it, though.

In other words, Brienne could be quite attractive by our standards and still meet this description by Westeros standards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 11:45:24 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.
:lol:
I don't get the feeling that your standards for "fact" are even this high, but mine are much, much higher.  The term for people who make statements like this is "credulous."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 11:45:24 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.
:lol:
I don't get the feeling that your standards for "fact" are even this high, but mine are much, much higher.  The term for people who make statements like this is "credulous."
:yeahright:
So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 12:36:05 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
:yeahright:
So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?
:yeahright:

Nice strawman.  I didn't mention inner voices, big noses, or "not likely."

Three Freys said that Davos Seaforth was executed at White Harbor.  Did that make it true?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 20, 2011, 12:43:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 12:36:05 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
:yeahright:
So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?
:yeahright:

Nice strawman.  I didn't mention inner voices, big noses, or "not likely."

Three Freys said that Davos Seaforth was executed at White Harbor.  Did that make it true?
No idea. Probally not but no spoilers please, I'm only quarter of the way through Dance.

We're on about how someone looks here. Not any facts whatsoever. There was no strawman at all in my post, that was what is called an example- if several viewpoints in the books make the same observation of someones appearance then that is as good as fact.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 01:26:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 12:43:48 PM
We're on about how someone looks here. Not any facts whatsoever. There was no strawman at all in my post, that was what is called an example- if several viewpoints in the books make the same observation of someones appearance then that is as good as fact.
If three POV characters note that a person is blonde, then we can accept it as given that the person is blonde.  If three say a person is "ugly" then all we know is that three people think a person is ugly, "ugly" being a subjective term.

That's the way subjective impressions work.  Multiple subjective impressions are not additive or corroborative.

"As good as fact" is a meaningless term.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 20, 2011, 01:34:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 12:43:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 12:36:05 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
:yeahright:
So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?
:yeahright:

Nice strawman.  I didn't mention inner voices, big noses, or "not likely."

Three Freys said that Davos Seaforth was executed at White Harbor.  Did that make it true?
No idea. Probally not but no spoilers please, I'm only quarter of the way through Dance.

We're on about how someone looks here. Not any facts whatsoever. There was no strawman at all in my post, that was what is called an example- if several viewpoints in the books make the same observation of someones appearance then that is as good as fact.

Davos execution also happens in A Feast for Crows where Cersei talks about it. So, Three Freys, a Grand Maester and a Lannister say the Onion Kniggot was executed at White Harbour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 20, 2011, 01:42:08 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 20, 2011, 09:39:26 AM
She has large, blue eyes, straw-colored hair, broad, coarse features, and a flat face. Her teeth are prominent and crooked, her mouth is too wide, her lips are swollen, her nose is battered and has been broken more than once, and her face is covered in freckles. She is tall and ungainly, thick for a woman.

Martin has thing for describing lips.  What the lips look like (swollen, wormy, etc), are always mentioned.  For some reason that seems odd to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on July 20, 2011, 02:09:00 PM
QuoteDon't get me wrong, she's attractive.  Melisandre, as written though, is very, very attractive.  Internet level hott.
Watch The Black Book.  Spend two hours suppressing an erection.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 20, 2011, 07:21:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 20, 2011, 11:45:24 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 20, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.
:lol:
I don't get the feeling that your standards for "fact" are even this high, but mine are much, much higher.  The term for people who make statements like this is "credulous."
:yeahright:
So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?
Not necessarily, they could be from an ethnic group with small noses and the later could be from an ethnic group with average size noses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 20, 2011, 07:42:16 PM
Why are you people arguing the standards of beauty in a fictional time and place?  The only person who's opinion actually matters is Martin.  If he's they are ugly, they are ugly.  If he says they are beautiful, they are beautiful.  It's his world, he made it all up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 21, 2011, 02:08:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 20, 2011, 07:42:16 PM
Why are you people arguing the standards of beauty in a fictional time and place?  The only person who's opinion actually matters is Martin.  If he's they are ugly, they are ugly.  If he says they are beautiful, they are beautiful.  It's his world, he made it all up.

They are nerds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 21, 2011, 02:25:25 AM
Some "Dance" comments below. No spoilers but you're forewarned, just in case. I post them here instead of in Viking's thread because I'm not done with the whole book yet.


Ok, I'm about halfway "Dance" at the moment, and I must say that Reek's chapters have a creepy way to turn my stomach that makes me difficult to keep reading right away. They're very interesting and plenty of relevant stuff happens...but damn are they disgusting.  :x

Best chapters so far have been, IMO, Jon's and Bran's, two characters which I didn't really enjoy in previous books. Melissandre's chapter has also been very revealing.
The worst are Dany's, terribly boring and filled with pussyfooting around and fuck all happening to advance her plot. I can't wait for people to actually start reaching her in order for something meaningful taking place. Also Tyrion's emo self loathing schtick is rubbing me the wrong way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 04, 2011, 03:15:26 PM
They cast Jaqen: http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/08/exclusive-tom-wlaschiha-is-jaqen-hghar/

Dude looks weird enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 04, 2011, 04:18:26 PM
So anyone have any spoiler-free summary reviews of Dance With Dragons? Eg, "best book of the series so far" or "I think Martin has completely lost the plot" or something of that ilk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on August 04, 2011, 04:21:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 04, 2011, 04:18:26 PM
So anyone have any spoiler-free summary reviews of Dance With Dragons? Eg, "best book of the series so far" or "I think Martin has completely lost the plot" or something of that ilk.

From what I've read, it's the latter.

I feel relatively comfortable with my decision to drop this series. If he ever finishes it I may go through it again, but right now it just feels like a waste of time.

I tried listening to the Audiobook version briefly, but the guy reading them sounds like he's an 80 year old with throat cancer. Possibly in some sort of bid to make it sound elegant and old-timey. Just makes me want to poke my eardrums out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on August 04, 2011, 04:23:04 PM
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6579356/game-of-thrones-rpg

College Humor gets it done, as always.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 04, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on August 04, 2011, 04:23:04 PM
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6579356/game-of-thrones-rpg

College Humor gets it done, as always.

Ugh.  I suppose the "Humor" in this refers to the "Humor" of the human body as per Greek Medicine. Bleh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 04, 2011, 04:41:38 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on August 04, 2011, 04:23:04 PM
College Humor gets it done, as always.

Did you stop watching College Humor 3 years ago or something?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 04, 2011, 05:01:10 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 04, 2011, 04:18:26 PM
So anyone have any spoiler-free summary reviews of Dance With Dragons? Eg, "best book of the series so far" or "I think Martin has completely lost the plot" or something of that ilk.
Amazon has some fairly spoiler-free reviews. 

Personally, I thought that this latest book was loads better than the last one, but nor as good as the first three.  There were more reveals in this book than the last, but Martin continues to be an undisciplined writer who crams 600 pages of book into 1,000+ pages.  He continues to be very descriptive, so some readers will tolerate and even enjoy the digressions because of the quality of the writing.  I'd say it is a worthwhile read for the fan of the series, but that it also confirms what AFfC and the time spent writing it already indicated:  Martin doesn't really have much of a plan for this series and is just winging it. 

One-sentence summary:  I liked it well enough, but it is a book for the completist, and I'd have liked it twice as much were it half its size.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 15, 2011, 09:07:51 PM
I like the look of Roose Bolton.  :cool:

http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/08/michael-mcelhatton-cast-as-roose-bolton/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on October 10, 2011, 05:19:42 PM
They cast Ygritte, she does look the part: http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/10/10/game-of-thrones-rose-leslie/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on October 11, 2011, 03:01:50 PM
HBO is selling some serious books for GRRM

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Books-Science-Fiction-Fantasy/zgbs/books/25/



He's in place 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 and 19.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on October 11, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
About to start a Feast of Crows....well will hold off for a while, maybe Christmas I'm thinking.  Really affects my school work when I start reading these.


Goes downhill from here though, huh?   :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on October 11, 2011, 04:02:32 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on October 11, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
About to start a Feast of Crows....well will hold off for a while, maybe Christmas I'm thinking.  Really affects my school work when I start reading these.


Goes downhill from here though, huh?   :(
They're still good reads, just not to the level of the first few.  Don't worry too much about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on October 26, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
Salman Rushdie slams Game of Thrones, kinda:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/interview-salman-rushdie-is-not-afraid-1.389961

Quote[...]

"I mean, there is always a lot of junk; most novels published are bad novels, most plays put on are bad plays, most movies that come out are bad movies and that is also true of TV. Nineteen times out of 20 you fall asleep. There was a series called 'Game of Thrones' which was very popular here in the United States, a post-Tolkien kind of thing. It was garbage, yet very addictive garbage - because there's lots of violence, all the women take their clothes off all the time, and it's kind of fun. In the end, it's well-produced trash, but there's room for that, too.

"I watched all that because if I am going to work in this field, I need to know what it is going on. I have been making myself have whole-series marathons to get the point of how it goes. I will soon start writing my little series."

[...]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 26, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
Salman Rushdie slams Game of Thrones, kinda:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/interview-salman-rushdie-is-not-afraid-1.389961

Quote[...]

"I mean, there is always a lot of junk; most novels published are bad novels, most plays put on are bad plays, most movies that come out are bad movies and that is also true of TV. Nineteen times out of 20 you fall asleep. There was a series called 'Game of Thrones' which was very popular here in the United States, a post-Tolkien kind of thing. It was garbage, yet very addictive garbage - because there's lots of violence, all the women take their clothes off all the time, and it's kind of fun. In the end, it's well-produced trash, but there's room for that, too.

"I watched all that because if I am going to work in this field, I need to know what it is going on. I have been making myself have whole-series marathons to get the point of how it goes. I will soon start writing my little series."

[...]

I can't say I really disagree with him, even though I very much liked the first season.

It is pretty much trash. That doesn't mean it isn't very good entertainment though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on October 26, 2011, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 26, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
Salman Rushdie slams Game of Thrones, kinda:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/interview-salman-rushdie-is-not-afraid-1.389961

Quote[...]

"I mean, there is always a lot of junk; most novels published are bad novels, most plays put on are bad plays, most movies that come out are bad movies and that is also true of TV. Nineteen times out of 20 you fall asleep. There was a series called 'Game of Thrones' which was very popular here in the United States, a post-Tolkien kind of thing. It was garbage, yet very addictive garbage - because there's lots of violence, all the women take their clothes off all the time, and it's kind of fun. In the end, it's well-produced trash, but there's room for that, too.

"I watched all that because if I am going to work in this field, I need to know what it is going on. I have been making myself have whole-series marathons to get the point of how it goes. I will soon start writing my little series."

[...]

The TV show is certainly meh compared to the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on October 26, 2011, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on October 11, 2011, 04:02:32 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on October 11, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
About to start a Feast of Crows....well will hold off for a while, maybe Christmas I'm thinking.  Really affects my school work when I start reading these.


Goes downhill from here though, huh?   :(
They're still good reads, just not to the level of the first few.  Don't worry too much about it.

No they're not really. The fifth one is particularly bad. I wished I hadn't bothered with it at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 26, 2011, 10:14:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 26, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
Salman Rushdie slams Game of Thrones, kinda:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/interview-salman-rushdie-is-not-afraid-1.389961

Quote[...]

"I mean, there is always a lot of junk; most novels published are bad novels, most plays put on are bad plays, most movies that come out are bad movies and that is also true of TV. Nineteen times out of 20 you fall asleep. There was a series called 'Game of Thrones' which was very popular here in the United States, a post-Tolkien kind of thing. It was garbage, yet very addictive garbage - because there's lots of violence, all the women take their clothes off all the time, and it's kind of fun. In the end, it's well-produced trash, but there's room for that, too.

"I watched all that because if I am going to work in this field, I need to know what it is going on. I have been making myself have whole-series marathons to get the point of how it goes. I will soon start writing my little series."

[...]

I can't say I really disagree with him, even though I very much liked the first season.

It is pretty much trash. That doesn't mean it isn't very good entertainment though.
What makes it trash?

Can you list some television shows that were art rather than trash and explain why?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on October 26, 2011, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 09:57:24 AM
I can't say I really disagree with him, even though I very much liked the first season.

It is pretty much trash. That doesn't mean it isn't very good entertainment though.

Well I was not aware it was meant to be high art.  Trash compared to what would be my question.  Compared to the LOTR movies?  I mean I doubt the HBO GoTR series will be used as an example in a 31st century classroom of the height of ancient American fiction or anything but it was pretty sophisticated for a TV series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 26, 2011, 10:21:53 AM
Midnight's Children was dull and pretentious. I did kind of like the Satanic Verses though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:21:54 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 26, 2011, 10:14:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 26, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
Salman Rushdie slams Game of Thrones, kinda:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/interview-salman-rushdie-is-not-afraid-1.389961

Quote[...]

"I mean, there is always a lot of junk; most novels published are bad novels, most plays put on are bad plays, most movies that come out are bad movies and that is also true of TV. Nineteen times out of 20 you fall asleep. There was a series called 'Game of Thrones' which was very popular here in the United States, a post-Tolkien kind of thing. It was garbage, yet very addictive garbage - because there's lots of violence, all the women take their clothes off all the time, and it's kind of fun. In the end, it's well-produced trash, but there's room for that, too.

"I watched all that because if I am going to work in this field, I need to know what it is going on. I have been making myself have whole-series marathons to get the point of how it goes. I will soon start writing my little series."

[...]

I can't say I really disagree with him, even though I very much liked the first season.

It is pretty much trash. That doesn't mean it isn't very good entertainment though.
What makes it trash?

Appeals to generally very base entertainment values, like sex and violence. Is largely driven by a very negative story, and the appeal is mostly about watching bad people doing nasty things to one another.

Quote

Can you list some television shows that were art rather than trash and explain why?

Art? I don't know about that, but I can certainly list plenty of TV shows that were not as trashy as GoT.

Babylon 5. Firefly. Six Feet Under. Carnival. Frasier. MASH. Sports Night. News Radio. Hill Street Blues.

I could go on, those are just a few that pop into my head as being considerably less trashy than GoT, where the appeal is at least trying to be based on something a little bit more cerebral.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:24:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 26, 2011, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 09:57:24 AM
I can't say I really disagree with him, even though I very much liked the first season.

It is pretty much trash. That doesn't mean it isn't very good entertainment though.

Well I was not aware it was meant to be high art.  Trash compared to what would be my question.  Compared to the LOTR movies?  I mean I doubt the HBO GoTR series will be used as an example in a 31st century classroom of the height of ancient American fiction or anything but it was pretty sophisticated for a TV series.

I think it achieves pretty much exactly what it was meant to be in fact. They are not going for Shakespeare.

I guess I don't think describing it as trashy is necessarily a huge negative. It can be both trashy and damn good, even trashy and sophisticated.

You cannot really argue though that a TV show that includes whores flashing their crotch at people, lesbian sex scenes, a couple instances of incest, and plenty of over the top violence is not trashy though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on October 26, 2011, 10:26:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:24:28 AM
You cannot really argue though that a TV show that includes whores flashing their crotch at people, lesbian sex scenes, a couple instances of incest, and plenty of over the top violence is not trashy though.

Well that's true but it seems like every HBO series does that.  I think after watching enough of HBO programming I just sorta expect it and ignore it.  I have no idea why they feel that need to do it just because they can.

But when Salman said trash though I presumed he meant that the quality of the show as a whole is trash.  Maybe when and if I read his series I willl agree with him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 26, 2011, 10:31:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:24:28 AM


I think it achieves pretty much exactly what it was meant to be in fact. They are not going for Shakespeare.


Shakespeare was as trashy as society allowed and it was still art. Plenty of sex and violence in Shakespeare.  In fact theater itself was by definition trashy in it's time and was banned by the government several times.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 26, 2011, 10:33:56 AM
I wouldn't call the TV show trash.  Showing tits and blood doesn't make a show trash.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:24:28 AM
I think it achieves pretty much exactly what it was meant to be in fact. They are not going for Shakespeare.

I guess I don't think describing it as trashy is necessarily a huge negative. It can be both trashy and damn good, even trashy and sophisticated.

You cannot really argue though that a TV show that includes whores flashing their crotch at people, lesbian sex scenes, a couple instances of incest, and plenty of over the top violence is not trashy though.
I suppose if we simply re-define the concept "trashy" then GoT is trashy.  But so is every other series you named, because they appealed to emotion like GoT does.  They are less trashy than GoT by that measure, but still trashy.

Or, maybe, we should reject the concept of "trashy" as a valid measure of TV show quality and recognize that it is simply the label that a snob applied to work not like his own.  I think accepting Rushdie's labeling system adds nothing to the debate.  He is a smart guy but not very introspective, and certainly not a man who can complain about the fiction work of others; he wrote some very good philosophically-inclined  works, but he doesn't understand character or plot and I find the idea of him writing for TV or movies to be questionable, at best.

Is GoT deliberately over the top in places?  Sure.  Does that make it bad TV?  No, it makes it good TV, because TV is about showing and not telling, and GoT doesn't hold back when it comes to showing.  I think I enjoyed the show even more than the book, and I enjoyed the book a lot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on October 26, 2011, 10:50:18 AM
I'll say this for Rushdie. His wife is seriously hot. No wonder he looks so pleased with himself.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.389972.1318597949%21%2Fimage%2F2611906256.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Flandscape_295%2F2611906256.jpg&hash=39c887886a0fd42490f20dd73a1a8acdb4d780b5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on October 26, 2011, 10:52:58 AM
I think they divorced years ago.  No wonder he is lashing out at Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 26, 2011, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: Gups on October 26, 2011, 10:50:18 AM
I'll say this for Rushdie. His wife is seriously hot. No wonder he looks so pleased with himself.

Ew.  That nose didn't look good on Michael Jackson and it doesn't look good on this broad either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on October 26, 2011, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 26, 2011, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: Gups on October 26, 2011, 10:50:18 AM
I'll say this for Rushdie. His wife is seriously hot. No wonder he looks so pleased with himself.

Ew.  That nose didn't look good on Michael Jackson and it doesn't look good on this broad either.

Didn't really look above the neck but yeah, internet standards FTW
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on October 26, 2011, 11:03:11 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:24:28 AM
I think it achieves pretty much exactly what it was meant to be in fact. They are not going for Shakespeare.

I guess I don't think describing it as trashy is necessarily a huge negative. It can be both trashy and damn good, even trashy and sophisticated.

You cannot really argue though that a TV show that includes whores flashing their crotch at people, lesbian sex scenes, a couple instances of incest, and plenty of over the top violence is not trashy though.
I suppose if we simply re-define the concept "trashy" then GoT is trashy.  But so is every other series you named, because they appealed to emotion like GoT does.  They are less trashy than GoT by that measure, but still trashy.

Or, maybe, we should reject the concept of "trashy" as a valid measure of TV show quality and recognize that it is simply the label that a snob applied to work not like his own.  I think accepting Rushdie's labeling system adds nothing to the debate.  He is a smart guy but not very introspective, and certainly not a man who can complain about the fiction work of others; he wrote some very good philosophically-inclined  works, but he doesn't understand character or plot and I find the idea of him writing for TV or movies to be questionable, at best.

Is GoT deliberately over the top in places?  Sure.  Does that make it bad TV?  No, it makes it good TV, because TV is about showing and not telling, and GoT doesn't hold back when it comes to showing.  I think I enjoyed the show even more than the book, and I enjoyed the book a lot.

Well, with his:
QuoteIt was garbage, yet very addictive garbage - because there's lots of violence, all the women take their clothes off all the time, and it's kind of fun.In the end, it's well-produced trash, but there's room for that, too.
I think he's saying that GoT is good entertainment, and that there's a market for this, but that it's not anything deep or life changing. His opinion seems snobbish and very discriminating and reminds me a lot of the rigid distcinction in Germany between E (ernst = serious, i.e. artistic and high culture pretences) and U (Unterhaltung = entertainment). I think  both miss the point that any media product (books/stories, movies, tv shows, music, games etc.) can merge those two distinctions and that some defy classification (especially games fall invariably into the "U" category in Germany).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on October 26, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
His criticism (if that's what it is) is pretty rich coming from an author whose claim to fame has nothing to do with the quality of his work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on October 26, 2011, 11:15:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 26, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
His criticism (if that's what it is) is pretty rich coming from an author whose claim to fame has nothing to do with the quality of his work.

He was as famous before the fatwa as any other living lietrary writer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on October 26, 2011, 11:17:53 AM
Quote from: Gups on October 26, 2011, 11:15:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 26, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
His criticism (if that's what it is) is pretty rich coming from an author whose claim to fame has nothing to do with the quality of his work.

He was as famous before the fatwa as any other living lietrary writer.

No.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on October 26, 2011, 11:19:48 AM
I just started reading Dance with Dragons. Too early to comment much but I like so far what I've read of the main characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on October 26, 2011, 11:44:27 AM
Yes. Midnight's Children was massive. Huge sales, loads of awards (incluidng the Booker), tons of press attention and a lawsuit from Indira.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 11:47:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:21:54 AM
Appeals to generally very base entertainment values, like sex and violence. Is largely driven by a very negative story, and the appeal is mostly about watching bad people doing nasty things to one another.

If that's what defines trash, then this also applies to the Illiad or Hamlet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 11:51:54 AM
Anyway, all of this proves that maybe we were wrong about Rushdie. Maybe the muslims want to kill him not because he is a blasphemer, but because he is a giant douche?

Let's see if he can dodge the fatwa from the Mountain that Writes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on October 26, 2011, 11:54:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 11:51:54 AM
Anyway, all of this proves that maybe we were wrong about Rushdie. Maybe the muslims want to kill him not because he is a blasphemer, but because he is a giant douche?

Hey, wait a sec.

Quote from: Martinusmy claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all

Shouldn't this apply to Rushdie, too? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 11:57:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 26, 2011, 11:54:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 11:51:54 AM
Anyway, all of this proves that maybe we were wrong about Rushdie. Maybe the muslims want to kill him not because he is a blasphemer, but because he is a giant douche?

Hey, wait a sec.

Quote from: Martinusmy claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all

Shouldn't this apply to Rushdie, too? :P

You are confusing two things here. Whether Rushdie is an asshole or not has no bearing on my judgement of him as a writer or an artist or a "great man" (or not). It may have bearing on me wanting him to be killed, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 26, 2011, 12:44:19 PM
GoT had a lot of violence?
If only it were so
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on October 26, 2011, 12:52:57 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:21:54 AM
Art? I don't know about that, but I can certainly list plenty of TV shows that were not as trashy as GoT.

Babylon 5. Firefly. Six Feet Under. Carnival. Frasier. MASH. Sports Night. News Radio. Hill Street Blues.

I could go on, those are just a few that pop into my head as being considerably less trashy than GoT, where the appeal is at least trying to be based on something a little bit more cerebral.
I wonder, if GoT is "trash", were would that leave Spartacus? :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on October 26, 2011, 06:44:21 PM
Shame about Rushdie.  He used to appear more reflective, especially his acknowledgement that The Satanic Verses is a fucking terrible book, as a text.

GoT is pretty poorly written, especially considering how good Martin is as an editor and a writer for TV.  He needs an editor as good as he is an editor, to edit him.

Still, he's metric fucktons better than Jordan or Sanderson, whose supposed best book is so turgid I couldn't make it past the first ten pages.

And I read Stephenson, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky for fun.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on October 26, 2011, 07:50:05 PM
I thought Game of Thrones was well written.  Much better writing then typical sci-fi or fantasy.  The prose flows smoothly and naturally.  The later books suffer from poor editing, but the writing itself is okay.  Compare to someone like Philip K. Dick who's prose flits disjointedly from idea to idea.  You'd think it was written by a madman.  And if you thought that, that you'd be right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:14:27 PM
Quote from: Gups on October 26, 2011, 10:50:18 AM
I'll say this for Rushdie. His wife is seriously hot. No wonder he looks so pleased with himself.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.389972.1318597949%21%2Fimage%2F2611906256.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Flandscape_295%2F2611906256.jpg&hash=39c887886a0fd42490f20dd73a1a8acdb4d780b5)

She is not white.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:46:56 PM
So your wife isn't hot?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 27, 2011, 09:05:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:
Could the dude be any more Caucasian? If he was in a police lineup and labeled Mr. Smith you'd never know the difference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on October 27, 2011, 09:16:28 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

She is still seriously hot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2011, 09:36:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?

:huh:

Scarlett Johansson: white
Golda Meir: non-white

I mean really now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2011, 09:36:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?

:huh:

Scarlett Johansson: white
Golda Meir: non-white

I mean really now.

But power is sexy... :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on October 27, 2011, 09:59:44 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2011, 09:36:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?

:huh:

Scarlett Johansson: white
Golda Meir: non-white

I mean really now.

But power is sexy... :perv:

:x
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 10:09:50 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2011, 09:59:44 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2011, 09:36:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?

:huh:

Scarlett Johansson: white
Golda Meir: non-white

I mean really now.

But power is sexy... :perv:

:x

Not feeling well?  Was it something you ate? :console:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on October 27, 2011, 10:11:32 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:14:27 PM

She is not white.

You aren't white, so what?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:16:36 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:46:56 PM
So your wife isn't hot?  :hmm:
Jewish people look white.
At least real jewish people, like sefaradis.
Ashkenazis are Khazars or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:17:11 AM
Quote from: Alcibiades on October 27, 2011, 10:11:32 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:14:27 PM

She is not white.

You aren't white, so what?

But I am white-looking.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:23:06 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?


Ha, the jews in Hollywood have brainwashed you and stolen your soul.

Hollywood have been working for a long time to pair up white women with black dudes, black dudes with latinas, latinas with white men, white men with asian girls, etc.
An

And they make white women skinny so they are not fertile.

Hollywood brainwashed me!



Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 28, 2011, 12:36:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 27, 2011, 09:05:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:
Could the dude be any more Caucasian? If he was in a police lineup and labeled Mr. Smith you'd never know the difference.

He doesn't look Nordic or Celtic. "Mr. Smith" is presumably of British extraction and would have slightly less melanin, different facial features, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:56:36 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 28, 2011, 12:36:20 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 27, 2011, 09:05:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:
Could the dude be any more Caucasian? If he was in a police lineup and labeled Mr. Smith you'd never know the difference.

He doesn't look Nordic or Celtic. "Mr. Smith" is presumably of British extraction and would have slightly less melanin, different facial features, etc.

So, only blond faggots are white now, it seems.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:58:13 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Siege on October 27, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on October 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Neither is he.  :huh:

So?
I was refuting Gups claim that she was seriously hot.

Who the fuck ever said that only white people were hot?


Show me ONE (1) woman that ain't white and is hot.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 28, 2011, 12:59:50 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.palzoo.net%2Ffile%2Fpic%2Fuser%2FBeyonce.jpg&hash=02c372f74544b439764298cc0767bac083df091a)

Predictable, I know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on October 28, 2011, 01:15:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 26, 2011, 10:24:28 AM
I think it achieves pretty much exactly what it was meant to be in fact. They are not going for Shakespeare.

I guess I don't think describing it as trashy is necessarily a huge negative. It can be both trashy and damn good, even trashy and sophisticated.

You cannot really argue though that a TV show that includes whores flashing their crotch at people, lesbian sex scenes, a couple instances of incest, and plenty of over the top violence is not trashy though.
I suppose if we simply re-define the concept "trashy" then GoT is trashy.  But so is every other series you named, because they appealed to emotion like GoT does.  They are less trashy than GoT by that measure, but still trashy.

Or, maybe, we should reject the concept of "trashy" as a valid measure of TV show quality and recognize that it is simply the label that a snob applied to work not like his own.  I think accepting Rushdie's labeling system adds nothing to the debate.  He is a smart guy but not very introspective, and certainly not a man who can complain about the fiction work of others; he wrote some very good philosophically-inclined  works, but he doesn't understand character or plot and I find the idea of him writing for TV or movies to be questionable, at best.

Is GoT deliberately over the top in places?  Sure.  Does that make it bad TV?  No, it makes it good TV, because TV is about showing and not telling, and GoT doesn't hold back when it comes to showing.  I think I enjoyed the show even more than the book, and I enjoyed the book a lot.

once in a while i find myself agreeing with grumbler.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 28, 2011, 01:39:56 AM
Quote from: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:58:13 AM

Show me ONE (1) woman that ain't white and is hot.

To take Siegy's point a bit more seriously than the rest of you do and at least operate within the paradigm where if you give a neanderthal a shave, a change of clothes and a bowler hat you wouldn't find him out of place on the london underground. Beyoncé, Halle Berry and Jessica Alba in a sense "white". The only thing really that makes them non-white is genetics. They don't have the features which would suggest heredity other than what usually would be considered white. They got their noses and lips fixed to conform.

So to rephrase Siegy's question in a manner more relevant to us all.

Show me ONE (1) woman that deviates from the occidental standard of beauty and is hot.

That picture of Beyoncé has her straightening her hair, softening the colour of her face, reddening her lips and emphasizing the contrast effect of her eyes.

She looks like she could be a white girl who has a non-petite nose and a really good tan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 28, 2011, 02:21:57 AM
White women also straighten their hair and wear makeup, so what.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 28, 2011, 02:42:49 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 28, 2011, 02:21:57 AM
White women also straighten their hair and wear makeup, so what.

yes, emphasizing health indicators visible on (reall hate the word "white" here for all the connotations it has, but I'll use it because a caucasian is a georgian, armenia, azeri, chechen etc.) white skin. White women are trying to look more ideal white in the sense that they are emphasizing indicators of health in white women (straight lustrous hair, full lips, bright lifelike eyes and healthy looking skin). Black or Yellow women can have the same health status as a white woman but their health indicators are different. The point Siegy (apparently involuntarily) is trying to make is that the indicators of health and thus tokens of beauty in white women are being adopted by non-white women and the standard which we rate beauty (and thus reproductive health based on superficial factors) is a white one rather than a black, yellow or brown one.

I'm not claiming this in an absolute, I'm saying this is a trend in certain societies and groups. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on October 28, 2011, 03:08:20 AM
Thnak you for xpressing what me was tryung to says.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 28, 2011, 04:10:15 AM
Certainly true in Asians (both of the Caucasian and Oriental variety). Black people though....I dunno, there are certainly some but there is a lot of appreciation out there for proper 'black beauties' (not the horse), lots of people seem to love the big arses and full lips and all that sort of thing.
Given our society is a predominantly white one though we just see the white ideal more often.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on October 28, 2011, 04:20:12 AM
Really a personal thing I reckon.  I find Middle Eastern chicks attractive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 28, 2011, 04:37:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 28, 2011, 04:20:12 AM
Really a personal thing I reckon.  I find Middle Eastern chicks attractive.
Me too, lots of them however don't find themselves attractive, a lot of going blonde and trying to look white.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Slargos on October 28, 2011, 07:19:45 AM
White is beautiful. There is simply no arguing this axiom. Cringe and whinge your way clear if you must, but the truth is irrefutable.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on October 28, 2011, 07:25:37 AM
Quote from: Slargos on October 28, 2011, 07:19:45 AM
White is beautiful. There is simply no arguing this axiom. Cringe and whinge your way clear if you must, but the truth is irrefutable.
Disagree.  Pasty may be what you prefer, but I like some color.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2011, 10:20:52 AM
Siege is part of the Elders' project to convince the RotW that the stereotype of Jews as clever is mistaken.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on October 28, 2011, 10:37:06 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2011, 10:20:52 AM
Siege is part of the Elders' project to convince the RotW that the stereotype of Jews as clever is mistaken.

Prefer to think of it as bravely fighting the stereotypes that have dogged the Jewish people for years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on October 28, 2011, 10:39:39 AM
Stereotypes are into dogging?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on October 28, 2011, 10:47:19 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 28, 2011, 01:39:56 AM
Quote from: Siege on October 28, 2011, 12:58:13 AM

Show me ONE (1) woman that ain't white and is hot.

To take Siegy's point a bit more seriously than the rest of you do and at least operate within the paradigm where if you give a neanderthal a shave, a change of clothes and a bowler hat you wouldn't find him out of place on the london underground. Beyoncé, Halle Berry and Jessica Alba in a sense "white". The only thing really that makes them non-white is genetics. They don't have the features which would suggest heredity other than what usually would be considered white. They got their noses and lips fixed to conform.

So to rephrase Siegy's question in a manner more relevant to us all.

Show me ONE (1) woman that deviates from the occidental standard of beauty and is hot.

That picture of Beyoncé has her straightening her hair, softening the colour of her face, reddening her lips and emphasizing the contrast effect of her eyes.

She looks like she could be a white girl who has a non-petite nose and a really good tan.

If there was a backroom and if a certain person had posted pictures of asian women in that back room then if one wished to see examples of beautiful non "white" women one need only view that non existent thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2011, 12:34:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 28, 2011, 01:39:56 AM
if you give a neanderthal a shave, a change of clothes and a bowler hat you wouldn't find him out of place on the london underground.

Stop picking on Slargos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 28, 2011, 02:42:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2011, 12:34:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 28, 2011, 01:39:56 AM
if you give a neanderthal a shave, a change of clothes and a bowler hat you wouldn't find him out of place on the london underground.

Stop picking on Slargos.

Don't pick on Slargos yourself, he waxes you know...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on October 28, 2011, 03:14:24 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 28, 2011, 02:42:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2011, 12:34:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 28, 2011, 01:39:56 AM
if you give a neanderthal a shave, a change of clothes and a bowler hat you wouldn't find him out of place on the london underground.

Stop picking on Slargos.

Don't pick on Slargos yourself, he waxes you know...

And yet he always find himself out of place despite those efforts.  Not even a bowler can help him.  Poor Slargos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 20, 2011, 11:44:57 PM
Season 2 production video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE12H1HorUU
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on December 04, 2011, 07:59:01 PM
Thread necromancy...


http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/11/rumor-hbo-to-order-two-more-seasons-film-them-back-to-back/

QuoteRumor: HBO to order two more seasons, film them back-to-back
By Winter Is Coming on November 29, 2011
Filed Under: Rumors

A Storm of Swords US paperbackWe reported on this in another post, but the rumors continue to swirl and so we thought it deserved its own post. We are now hearing from multiple sources that HBO plans to order both seasons three and four and film them back-to-back (à la Lord of the Rings). It has already been confirmed that A Storm of Swords would be covered in more than one season. From what we have heard, much of the film crew in Northern Ireland has been told of this plan and has been advised to expect nine months of filming next year.

Winter Is Coming: I have no doubt that this is an option that HBO is exploring, perhaps even leaning towards, but I don't think it is a done deal just yet. HBO likely won't announce anything official until season two begins, so they could change their minds before then.

It does make sense though, to do it this way, as they've already said they will be splitting book three into multiple seasons. This way they get the whole of the book filmed in one go, saving on production costs and keeping the kids from aging in between seasons.

This makes sense and it seems that Martin seems to have presented HBO with a good physical checkup and claimed his inability to write fast enough..... This will probably save HBO some money.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on December 04, 2011, 08:04:21 PM
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on December 04, 2011, 08:07:56 PM
Yeah, sounds good, just hope it doesn't mean much longer a wait
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on December 04, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
If they go through with that plan, I doubt they'd delay.  I suspect the point is to actually keep the time-table (one season a year, starting in the springtime every year).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on December 04, 2011, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 04, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
If they go through with that plan, I doubt they'd delay.  I suspect the point is to actually keep the time-table (one season a year, starting in the springtime every year).

I think one of the issues might be having to get it done before Maisie Williams becomes legitimately pervable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2011, 10:09:15 PM
If they go to fast they'll out run Martin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on December 04, 2011, 10:10:20 PM
It would be hard not to out-run him considering it takes him like 5 years per book.  Might light a fire under his ass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2011, 10:27:17 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on December 04, 2011, 10:10:20 PM
It would be hard not to out-run him considering it takes him like 5 years per book.  Might light a fire under his ass.

It would have to be fairly good size fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on December 05, 2011, 05:52:52 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 04, 2011, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 04, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
If they go through with that plan, I doubt they'd delay.  I suspect the point is to actually keep the time-table (one season a year, starting in the springtime every year).

I think one of the issues might be having to get it done before Maisie Williams becomes legitimately pervable.

Yup, considering that the actress is already, amazingly, 15 or something despite looking much younger, that's a very pressing matter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 05, 2011, 09:11:41 AM
Quote from: The Larch on December 05, 2011, 05:52:52 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 04, 2011, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 04, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
If they go through with that plan, I doubt they'd delay.  I suspect the point is to actually keep the time-table (one season a year, starting in the springtime every year).

I think one of the issues might be having to get it done before Maisie Williams becomes legitimately pervable.

Yup, considering that the actress is already, amazingly, 15 or something despite looking much younger, that's a very pressing matter.
14
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on December 05, 2011, 11:19:51 AM
Given how fast Martin writes it might be a problem if she were 8. It's a race against that Maxim spread she does a week after her 18th birthday. You'know the one in Xena Warrior princess type lingeré armour and she starts going to parties coked out. You know the Drew Barrrymore/Britney Spears/Miley Cyrus career path. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on December 06, 2011, 01:20:14 AM
http://visir.is/section/MEDIA99&fileid=SRC3B2C1862-00D1-49E3-99C3-8ABBD74A3210

this is an Icelandic TV report on the filming in Iceland of the scenes north of the wall. The stuff in icelandic is mostly about the economic effect about HBO and ASOIF in general as well as tourism. And of course the one truck that was blown off the road in a storm before filming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 06, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
At this point in the series, it's hard to envision any of them as children anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on December 06, 2011, 02:18:16 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 05, 2011, 11:19:51 AM
Given how fast Martin writes it might be a problem if she were 8. It's a race against that Maxim spread she does a week after her 18th birthday. You'know the one in Xena Warrior princess type lingeré armour and she starts going to parties coked out. You know the Drew Barrrymore/Britney Spears/Miley Cyrus career path.

That was my intended career path, but Maxim wouldn't buy my lingere armor photos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on December 06, 2011, 09:09:05 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 04, 2011, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on December 04, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
If they go through with that plan, I doubt they'd delay.  I suspect the point is to actually keep the time-table (one season a year, starting in the springtime every year).

I think one of the issues might be having to get it done before Maisie Williams becomes legitimately pervable.
Really? :unsure:
I'm more concerned about the Sansa one. She already looks really old for her age.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on December 06, 2011, 11:39:08 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 06, 2011, 09:09:05 AM
Really? :unsure:
I'm more concerned about the Sansa one. She already looks really old for her age.

The kids are supposed to be older in the series than in the books.  That's fairly common for the screen and stage; competent child actors get easier to find as the character (and thus actor)'s age increases.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on December 06, 2011, 11:42:29 AM
Still no Bombadil?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on December 06, 2011, 12:22:56 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 06, 2011, 09:09:05 AM
Really? :unsure:
I'm more concerned about the Sansa one. She already looks really old for her age.

Sansa, series Sansa, is supposed to be 14 this season.  She looks 14 to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on December 06, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: Viking on December 05, 2011, 11:19:51 AM
You know the Drew Barrrymore/Britney Spears/Miley Cyrus career path. 

Except she is in Britain somewhere and not in Hollywood.  Some tabloids will hack her cell phone though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on January 13, 2012, 04:48:12 PM
April 1 is when series two begins. 10 episodes.

From EW

It's not an April Fools joke: Game of Thrones season two will debut on April 1.

The 10-episode second season of the popular fantasy series now has an official date.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on January 14, 2012, 03:18:35 PM
Can't wait until the first season hits digital download.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on January 14, 2012, 04:41:17 PM
I'm nearly finished with the 3rd book.
So far, most of the stuff I guessed was right...

But now that I've read half of it, I went to a wiki.  And there's a nice theory on Jon Snow.

Spoiler:
Do you think it's plausible that he'd be Ned's nephew, a Targaryan heir nonetheless?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 15, 2012, 12:46:43 AM
You do know he died, right?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 15, 2012, 12:50:47 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 14, 2012, 04:41:17 PM
But now that I've read half of it, I went to a wiki.  And there's a nice theory on Jon Snow.

Marty's been bandying that theory around here for years. Tyrion too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on January 15, 2012, 01:03:05 AM
@Siege: You're a dick :P How could he possibly know when he said he has just finished the third book?


I believe almost certainly Jon will be revealed in time to not be Ned's, but I think Tyrion is a red herring and he works better as a Lannister. There were clues dropped in the last book to suggest he could be Aerys son but I hope that's not the case.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
Im afraid The GRRM kill him, and all the hopes for Jon Targaryen are irrelevant now.
It is his greatness to make us emotionally invested on his characters, and then make us suffer when he kills them.
I cannot recall other writter with the balls to kill his main characters.
To me it is mindblowing, and more realistic.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 15, 2012, 01:29:26 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
more realistic.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on January 15, 2012, 01:32:53 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
Im afraid The GRRM kill him, and all the hopes for Jon Targaryen are irrelevant now.
It is his greatness to make us emotionally invested on his characters, and then make us suffer when he kills them.
I cannot recall other writter with the balls to kill his main characters.
To me it is mindblowing, and more realistic.
We didn't see the official death notice though, just some hinting.  Any "off camera" death he does seems to come up short in the follow through department.  Until they show his lifeless corpse, I'm thinking he's not dead.  Hell, even with a lifeless corpse, there's conveniently a nearby priest who might be able to bring him back from the dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on January 15, 2012, 04:00:50 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 15, 2012, 01:32:53 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
Im afraid The GRRM kill him, and all the hopes for Jon Targaryen are irrelevant now.
It is his greatness to make us emotionally invested on his characters, and then make us suffer when he kills them.
I cannot recall other writter with the balls to kill his main characters.
To me it is mindblowing, and more realistic.
We didn't see the official death notice though, just some hinting.  Any "off camera" death he does seems to come up short in the follow through department.  Until they show his lifeless corpse, I'm thinking he's not dead.  Hell, even with a lifeless corpse, there's conveniently a nearby priest who might be able to bring him back from the dead.

Exactly. In Westeros death works like in WoW. One of my main complaints.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on January 15, 2012, 05:00:51 AM
Quote from: Jaron on January 15, 2012, 01:03:05 AM
@Siege: You're a dick :P How could he possibly know when he said he has just finished the third book?


I believe almost certainly Jon will be revealed in time to not be Ned's, but I think Tyrion is a red herring and he works better as a Lannister. There were clues dropped in the last book to suggest he could be Aerys son but I hope that's not the case.

This. Jon is almost certainly Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son (not sure but even Martin could have commented on that already), but Tyrion is more of a crazy conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 15, 2012, 05:20:34 AM
Faggots are atways rong, so I shall not take your wordh for it,
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on January 15, 2012, 07:08:53 AM
Jon Snow is almost the most boring character in the book (Bran takes the first prize), so I hope he stays dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 15, 2012, 07:19:10 AM
I agree. I always jump the jon snow bits whn I reread the books.
Yeah, I suc at life.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on January 15, 2012, 08:07:40 AM
hmm...killing Jon off would suck story wise. I like him, he's the one with the most potential going for him.

But...him being dead would fit in with GRRMs style. In real life the most interesting characters with big potential are the ones to die. Jon Snow is very much your cliched typical fantasy character- noble but an outsider, mysterious birth circumstances, becomes very powerful at a stupid early age, etc... Seems perfect fodder for Martin to kill in an unglamorous and boring fashion and go "Ha! Real life doesn't work so neatly!".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on January 15, 2012, 12:08:42 PM
I wonder if the clues being dropped in DwD are going to end up implicating that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys children, with Tyrion being the only true born Lannister by Tywin and his wife.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on January 15, 2012, 01:09:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 15, 2012, 05:00:51 AM
This. Jon is almost certainly Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son (not sure but even Martin could have commented on that already), but Tyrion is more of a crazy conspiracy theory.

This is what I've been thinking all along.  1/3 the way through the last book, though, so I didn't know John dies yet, assholes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: syk on January 15, 2012, 01:26:20 PM
So many lawful good characters were killed already. I hope Martin gives us a break and lets Jon survive after all. I don't find him boring at all. Predictable in his actions maybe but not boring. The Dorne chapters/characters however were skipworthy boring. Even despite some random hotness in there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on January 15, 2012, 05:49:40 PM
Does the fifth book end the series, or does Martin require further volumes to wrap up the story?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: syk on January 15, 2012, 06:13:43 PM
Two more books are planned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on January 15, 2012, 06:35:43 PM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 01:26:20 PM
So many lawful good characters were killed already. I hope Martin gives us a break and lets Jon survive after all. I don't find him boring at all. Predictable in his actions maybe but not boring. The Dorne chapters/characters however were skipworthy boring. Even despite some random hotness in there.
Agreed, I hate the Dorne bits.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 07:10:28 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 15, 2012, 06:35:43 PM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 01:26:20 PM
So many lawful good characters were killed already. I hope Martin gives us a break and lets Jon survive after all. I don't find him boring at all. Predictable in his actions maybe but not boring. The Dorne chapters/characters however were skipworthy boring. Even despite some random hotness in there.
Agreed, I hate the Dorne bits.

This is a major problem in the books.  As it goes on, the boring parts begin to outnumber the interesting parts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 15, 2012, 07:20:15 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on January 15, 2012, 01:09:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 15, 2012, 05:00:51 AM
This. Jon is almost certainly Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son (not sure but even Martin could have commented on that already), but Tyrion is more of a crazy conspiracy theory.

This is what I've been thinking all along.  1/3 the way through the last book, though, so I didn't know John dies yet, assholes.

Don't worry, you can be sure he ain't really dead.
No with Melissandre right next to him.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on January 16, 2012, 12:38:23 AM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 06:13:43 PM
Two more books are planned.

:yuk: Awh fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on January 16, 2012, 09:53:49 AM
Quote from: Jacob on January 16, 2012, 12:38:23 AM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 06:13:43 PM
Two more books are planned.

:yuk: Awh fuck.
Good news, though.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/these-last-two-are-gonna-be-real-turds-george-rr-m,26934/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hansmeister on January 16, 2012, 10:38:10 AM
Quote from: Scipio on January 14, 2012, 03:18:35 PM
Can't wait until the first season hits digital download.

I can buy it for $3 on the Haji market.  I'm sure it is totally legit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on January 16, 2012, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
Im afraid The GRRM kill him, and all the hopes for Jon Targaryen are irrelevant now.
It is his greatness to make us emotionally invested on his characters, and then make us suffer when he kills them.
I cannot recall other writter with the balls to kill his main characters.
To me it is mindblowing, and more realistic.
Well, I didn't know he was dead, and as others said, it means nothing.  Lots of people are supposed dead and seem to come back.
And it might be mindblowing, but it's starting to annoy me.  Fuck, no one will be fully alive by the time he ends his books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on January 16, 2012, 12:09:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 16, 2012, 11:32:29 AMWell, I didn't know he was dead, and as others said, it means nothing.  Lots of people are supposed dead and seem to come back.
And it might be mindblowing, but it's starting to annoy me.  Fuck, no one will be fully alive by the time he ends his books.

Yeah exactly. Once, it's kind of cool. More than once and it's lame. Especially if you include the bits where a chapter ends with someone seemingly getting killed, but then a few chapters later it turns out they were just knocked out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on January 16, 2012, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 01:26:20 PM
So many lawful good characters were killed already. I hope Martin gives us a break and lets Jon survive after all. I don't find him boring at all. Predictable in his actions maybe but not boring. The Dorne chapters/characters however were skipworthy boring. Even despite some random hotness in there.

I wouldn't consider Jon lawful good. He's not exactly "always by the rules" type of guy, he does many things he personally thinks are good but go against the established traditions. More like chaotic good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: syk on January 16, 2012, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 16, 2012, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 01:26:20 PM
So many lawful good characters were killed already. I hope Martin gives us a break and lets Jon survive after all. I don't find him boring at all. Predictable in his actions maybe but not boring. The Dorne chapters/characters however were skipworthy boring. Even despite some random hotness in there.

I wouldn't consider Jon lawful good. He's not exactly "always by the rules" type of guy, he does many things he personally thinks are good but go against the established traditions. More like chaotic good.
You're probably right. I just wanted to point out that I perceive him and the Starks as the clearest hero material in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on January 16, 2012, 06:53:39 PM
Martin got out-Martined by Joe Abercrombie.  Joe went darker faster and better than Martin, and more rationally, too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on January 16, 2012, 07:03:57 PM
Quote from: Scipio on January 16, 2012, 06:53:39 PM
Martin got out-Martined by Joe Abercrombie.  Joe went darker faster and better than Martin, and more rationally, too.
That'[s true.  I didn't care about any of Abercrombie's characters in the First Law series by the end of the third chapter.  With Martin, that took till the end of the third book.

I am ambivalent about reading more Martin, but Abercrombie convinced me in three books that I don't want to read any more.  Abercrombie is faster and better in that regard, as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 16, 2012, 07:24:40 PM
Joe Abercrombie sucks.

No maps?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on January 16, 2012, 07:56:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 16, 2012, 07:03:57 PMThat's true.  I didn't care about any of Abercrombie's characters in the First Law series by the end of the third chapter.  With Martin, that took till the end of the third book.

I am ambivalent about reading more Martin, but Abercrombie convinced me in three books that I don't want to read any more.  Abercrombie is faster and better in that regard, as well.

I cared about Abercrombie's characters a bit longer than for three chapters, but in essence I agree with you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on January 16, 2012, 08:15:37 PM
Quote from: syk on January 16, 2012, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 16, 2012, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: syk on January 15, 2012, 01:26:20 PM
So many lawful good characters were killed already. I hope Martin gives us a break and lets Jon survive after all. I don't find him boring at all. Predictable in his actions maybe but not boring. The Dorne chapters/characters however were skipworthy boring. Even despite some random hotness in there.

I wouldn't consider Jon lawful good. He's not exactly "always by the rules" type of guy, he does many things he personally thinks are good but go against the established traditions. More like chaotic good.
You're probably right. I just wanted to point out that I perceive him and the Starks as the clearest hero material in the books.
True.
The true heroes in typical fantasy normally aren't the lawful good folk though. Lawful good is the snobby authority figure whose insistence on sticking to the rules is going to doom us all. Snow is very much the typical fantasy character who somehow doesn't play by the rules yet somehow miraculously always wins in this medieval setting where not playing by the rules should get him smacked down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2012, 02:35:36 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xKK2IMSRcCA%2FTkVDp_otk3I%2FAAAAAAAAAjM%2FGmqhBYRDLdY%2Fs640%2Fcthulhu-AGOT.jpg&hash=360f1b1d1a93b0611152cd6906aef20c6be1c68c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on January 29, 2012, 11:51:32 PM
New trailer for the Season is up.  Looking good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 30, 2012, 12:01:29 AM
Hopefully that means Netflix will be getting season 1 soon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 30, 2012, 04:38:48 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2012, 12:01:29 AM
Hopefully that means Netflix will be getting season 1 soon.

I checked out the schedule through TiVo, the entire first season will be broadcast between this week through next weekend.  Set up a Season Pass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 30, 2012, 08:15:46 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 29, 2012, 11:51:32 PM
New trailer for the Season is up.  Looking good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE)

Whoa, did you see the part when Margaery gets naked in front of Renly?
Who is the dog beating on that castle wall, in single combat?
And Theon getting the salt water thing from his uncle, and Stannis look kind of fat.
The burning of the seven looks awesome, but the attack on Cersai at fleabottom looks too small, too underdone.

And unsullied look retarded and stupid, faaaaaaarrrrrr from the mental image I had of almost robot-soldiers.
Whoa, Arya rocks.
And the fight between the ugly chick that loves Renly and that other dude looks pretty good.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 30, 2012, 08:16:09 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2012, 12:01:29 AM
Hopefully that means Netflix will be getting season 1 soon.

Word.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on January 31, 2012, 06:34:43 PM
I hope we get some battles and not just skip past them as per series 1.

Were those meant to be unsullied in the video? Aren't they meant to be bald? Might they not be regular citizens soldiers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on January 31, 2012, 06:41:03 PM
AFAIK one of the big challenges of season 2 was the filming of the Battle of the Blackwater, with the producers and Martin saying before the shooting began that it was such a pivotal event with so much important stuff happening that they couldn't just handwave it as with the battles of the 1st season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on February 09, 2012, 06:43:18 PM
Some stills are out.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/02/09/game-of-thrones-season-2-photos/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on February 10, 2012, 11:22:21 AM
Ouche...
Brienne, before and after...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Fgrrm%2Fpic%2F000gx6d3&hash=1ebaee703cc26f20d02a710fe0e6cd011dd8fb7c)


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fewinsidetv.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F02%2Fbrienne-gwendoline-christie-helen-sloan.jpg%3Fw%3D510%26amp%3Bh%3D766&hash=dd17b793119b2294f598f513ebdfcedfebceba12)

I understand, now, why Jaimie says she's ugly :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 11:23:42 AM
Hehe, that is probably a pretty cool job for a makeup artist who is usually used to making women look as good as possible...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on February 11, 2012, 01:26:33 AM
I hope to see her naked. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on February 11, 2012, 01:56:49 AM
Impressive.  I didn't imagine her that ugly.  I thought of her as just mannish and big.  But that's the thing when you make book into a film.  Other people imagine characters differently then you do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 11, 2012, 02:10:19 AM
She looks like she has a beard. :osama:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on February 11, 2012, 02:14:07 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 11, 2012, 01:56:49 AM
Impressive.  I didn't imagine her that ugly.  I thought of her as just mannish and big.  But that's the thing when you make book into a film.  Other people imagine characters differently then you do.

Might want to go re-read the descriptions of her from the various POVs...She is never described as just mannish and big.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 11, 2012, 03:25:14 AM
"Dear in headlights"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg717.imageshack.us%2Fimg717%2F8484%2F40736327951426877917519.jpg&hash=bb75620676c890b16faa0d6d6fd4c922e32f339f)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on February 11, 2012, 03:30:49 AM
Natalie Dormer?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 11, 2012, 03:33:55 AM
That name sounds familiar. Anne Boleyn?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 11, 2012, 03:52:35 AM
Yup. I guess this time the tables are turned and it's her husbands who are getting offed.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on February 11, 2012, 04:06:13 AM
I initially thought she was a bit too old for the part. However, I was pleasantly surprised by the end result of casting decisions in Season 1 despite initial reservations, so I am optimistic for Season 2. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 12, 2012, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2012, 11:22:21 AM
Ouche...
Brienne, before and after...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.coic%2F000gx6d3&hash=8362794878dc1974aa646871ea3f49122f220937)


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fewinsidetv.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F0ne-gwendoline-christie-helen-sloan.jpg%3Fw%3D510%26amp%3Bh%3D766&hash=b21b4477b0ba788fc0a540ba0b9f5a33bed28519)

I understand, now, why Jaimie says she's ugly :D

Cool, that looks a bit better (err...worse?), I was quite worried at the casting to see she was actually quite pretty.
She's meant to be all buck toothed and...just ugly. And bulky, not just tall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on February 12, 2012, 08:43:33 PM
Amazing job with Brienne. She really looks ugly.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on February 12, 2012, 09:06:41 PM
Why would the Tyrells poison Joeffrey, when Margeary's children with him would rule, and thus placing a Tyrell grandson on the throne?

I think it was a risky move, from the Tyrell point of view. I think GRRM fucked this one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on February 12, 2012, 09:26:46 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F27.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lomceyFQ5S1qlspkxo1_500.gif&hash=305e7e5fe3df28cccba794865f0d036f0567bfba)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on February 12, 2012, 09:33:28 PM
They make a great couple.


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ln5gbaVDuy1qa1laco1_500.png&hash=c76ac33ae14752ead8e65c289512cb8aa324acb4)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 12, 2012, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 09:26:46 PM
(http://27.media.tummblr_lomceyfq5s1qlspkxo1_500.gif)
idk my bff image

I don't get it.

QuoteWhy would the Tyrells poison Joeffrey, when Margeary's children with him would rule, and thus placing a Tyrell grandson on the throne?

I think it was a risky move, from the Tyrell point of view. I think GRRM fucked this one.

1: Joffrey is almost an adult, he has a fully formed personality and is an ambitious self-serving git. Tommem is still a little kid, a lot easier to control.
2: They need to be rid of the Imp somehow, he's too good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on February 13, 2012, 02:55:42 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2Fav67n9.jpg&hash=3927d944b8bbda4d9a9bb84b1da8557d8c37034c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 13, 2012, 03:05:09 AM
:lol:

But...Renly is the bottom?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 03:05:54 AM
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 09:06:41 PM
Why would the Tyrells poison Joeffrey, when Margeary's children with him would rule, and thus placing a Tyrell grandson on the throne?

I think it was a risky move, from the Tyrell point of view. I think GRRM fucked this one.

I thought it was pretty obvious why.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2012, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 09:26:46 PM
(http://27.media.tummblr_lomceyfq5s1qlspkxo1_500.gif)
idk my bff image

I don't get it.

QuoteWhy would the Tyrells poison Joeffrey, when Margeary's children with him would rule, and thus placing a Tyrell grandson on the throne?

I think it was a risky move, from the Tyrell point of view. I think GRRM fucked this one.

1: Joffrey is almost an adult, he has a fully formed personality and is an ambitious self-serving git. Tommem is still a little kid, a lot easier to control.
2: They need to be rid of the Imp somehow, he's too good.

You are forgetting number 1 reason: Joffrey is a fucking psychopath. Tyrells may be power hungry but I don't think they want their daughter/granddaughter to be married to a psychopath who beats women. Plus, with Joffrey shaping up to be another Aerys the Mad King, the chances of a Tyrell grandson ruling after him are quite slim (especially compared to a potential Tyrell grandson through Tommen).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 13, 2012, 03:33:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 03:07:58 AM
(especially compared to a potential Tyrell grandson through Tommen).

I don't know that that's a great bet either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 05:50:58 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 13, 2012, 03:33:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 03:07:58 AM
(especially compared to a potential Tyrell grandson through Tommen).

I don't know that that's a great bet either.

Tommen is good-natured, easily controlled and having him married off (or bethrothed) to Margaery at an early age means she may actually compete with Cersei for the influence over him.

Plus as someone pointed out, murdering Joffrey and then framing the Imp means you get rid of one of the three Lannister siblings. You then get rid of Cersei by suggesting to Tywin she marries someone away from the King's Landing and you end up with Tyrells in a good position to exercise control.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 13, 2012, 06:33:23 AM
Given the environment, a puppet ruler whether Tyrell or Lannister controlled doesn't have a great life expectancy. As Tommen's shown neither the shrewdness of his grandfather and uncle nor the personal charisma and prowess of his father/s, he'll be completely at the mercy of others and Lady Luck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 13, 2012, 12:09:27 PM
[spoiler]So you guys are thinking Tyrion repeatedly taking credit for killing Joffrey once he leaves Westeros is a lie? I haven't got to the end of the last (newest) book quite yet.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on February 13, 2012, 12:11:54 PM
MiM, I think it is more like deep sarcasm then a lie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on February 13, 2012, 12:36:55 PM
I thought it wasn't clear who did it.  It's never clear who is responsible for any given plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 13, 2012, 01:29:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 13, 2012, 12:11:54 PM
MiM, I think it is more like deep sarcasm then a lie. 

Agreed.  It is clear from his own thoughts that he is not the killer.

Martin reveals who the killer is.  Just read the description of the murder, and then skip ahead to where Littlefinger is discussing it with Sansa.  It will all be very plain.

[spoiler]Littlefinger supplied the poison via Sansa's hair net, and Olenna Tyrell put it in Joffrey's wine.[/spoiler]

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on February 13, 2012, 04:05:38 PM
Unless Littlefinger is lying of course.

But it is the simplest explanation that fits all the facts. I don't even know of another suspect who makes any real sense.

The goal of the Tyrells was to get Maegery on the throne. They did that via Joffrey, but he was not particularly stable, controllable, or even safe. So they killed him. After all, once he is out of the way, it's not like dealing with Cersei is any great difficulty - she is mostly an idiot, and even her brother is no longer really supporting her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 05:07:26 PM
Also, people should remember that after deaths of Renly and Robb, Lannisters are the only way for Tyrells to marry into a royal house. Stannis despises them and he is already married; Martells hate them; and Greyjoys are not really interested.

And unlike other great houses they don't even have a historical claim to any of the seven kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on February 13, 2012, 05:17:59 PM
This thread should really be about the TV show only. There should be another thread for spoilers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 13, 2012, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 13, 2012, 04:05:38 PM
Unless Littlefinger is lying of course.

But it is the simplest explanation that fits all the facts. I don't even know of another suspect who makes any real sense.

He could be lying, but he knew an awful lot about what happened at an event at which he was not present.  From a storytelling point of view, also, his being part of he conspiracy works well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on February 13, 2012, 05:42:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 13, 2012, 05:17:59 PM
This thread should really be about the TV show only. There should be another thread for spoilers.

I think that ship sailed long ago. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on February 13, 2012, 05:49:22 PM
Yeah, this is definitely a read at your own risk thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on February 13, 2012, 05:57:30 PM
Fine then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 13, 2012, 07:18:29 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 13, 2012, 06:33:23 AM
Given the environment, a puppet ruler whether Tyrell or Lannister controlled doesn't have a great life expectancy. As Tommen's shown neither the shrewdness of his grandfather and uncle nor the personal charisma and prowess of his father/s, he'll be completely at the mercy of others and Lady Luck.

I dunno. As a young weak boy Tommen is such a puppet and his life so out of his own control that he makes for quite the prize for whoever holds him. He is the legitimate king (well...not really....but...you know) and nobody at court is out to change that, those who are keep dying fast, so its just a fight to kill each other off and hold Tommen.

Of course there's always the threat of Dani though.
And the developments of the 5th book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on February 16, 2012, 10:37:06 PM
I don't think anybody in Westeros see Dani as a threat yet.

The Tyrells, well, the grandma seem the only one with brains in there.
Mace is ambitious but not too sneaky. Garlan is an unknown factor, but is very happy selling his sister to Joeffry. Willis is lame, but he ain't the Imp, and Loras sucks.

I don't think the Tyrells have what it takes to control Westeros. The Lannisters certainly did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 16, 2012, 10:39:52 PM
Yeah, Dani isn't a threat. She was something Robert's advisors were mentioning as a "Finally on the agenda..." piece because there were no major major threats around. With actual enemies at the gate...she has fell off the radar largely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 02, 2012, 06:25:57 PM

I bumped it for you.  Don't say I never did anything for you!  :D

Anyway.  I was thinking of something.  I'm almost finished with the 4th book.  The fifth is out, and I tought the 6th was coming this summer, but now I hear it's only for 2014.

Apparently, there are 7 books planned... for now.  And the author doesn't want anyone to finish his books after his death, and he seems kinda old.

So, should I really buy that 5th book right now??  Or wait for if&when he finishes the series?

So far, it seems the producers are accomodating him by splitting some seasons in 2 :P  Otherwise, they'd outpace him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on March 02, 2012, 07:01:51 PM
Personally I'm putting off getting the fifth book for a while.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on March 02, 2012, 10:37:48 PM
5th book was ok.  Picked up near the end of the books, but the first 3/4 was pretty slow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 02, 2012, 10:39:23 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 02, 2012, 10:37:48 PM
5th book was ok.  Picked up near the end of the books, but the first 3/4 was pretty slow.

Yep.  The book had some excellent chapters (Theon), but dragged a bit too much.  Based upon the last portion of the book, I have high hopes for book 6 when it comes out in 2020.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 03, 2012, 01:21:46 AM
I am embarrased to admit I still haven't finished book 5. I am having trouble caring.

The Theon parts are excellent.

Dani is just fucking boring. She was one of the best storylines, and now I just don't fucking care anymore. I don't know what the point is - that entire storyline has completely lost its way, and just seems to be stumbling about going nowhere.

Tyrion?!??!! Riding a pig? Seriously? :bleeding:

Some deus ex sudden appearance of a Taergaryen? Shoot me.

And Jon is stumbling about up around the wall - that story is pretty decent, but again, it doesn't seem to be GOING anywhere.

I can't really say I am dissapointed, because I am saddened to notice that I mostly don't care that much. How did that happen? I loved these books and this world! And now I just can't bring myself to care. I WANT to care, I wish I could somehow make myself care...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 03, 2012, 04:22:15 AM
Book 5 did really suck for Dani.
That's her entire story really, she has just got bogged down into dullness.

And I think its pretty sure that this new Targ is fake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 03, 2012, 07:46:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 02, 2012, 10:39:23 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 02, 2012, 10:37:48 PM
5th book was ok.  Picked up near the end of the books, but the first 3/4 was pretty slow.

Yep.  The book had some excellent chapters (Theon), but dragged a bit too much.  Based upon the last portion of the book, I have high hopes for book 6 when it comes out in 2020.

My reaction was the opposite.  When I finally struggled to the end my reaction that I got through a very poorly written book only to find a more poorly written ending. It was like the guy died but the publisher has kept it a secret by putting out a partly finished and largley unedited book.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 03, 2012, 08:31:15 PM
So, Tywin Lannister planned the whole thing about getting Robb Stark to marry Jeyne Westerling, to force the Freys to switch sides.
I was shocked when I found out. Wasn't this a little too cunning for the Lannisters, more like Varys' or Littlefinger's MO?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 03, 2012, 10:28:57 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 02, 2012, 06:25:57 PM

I bumped it for you.  Don't say I never did anything for you!  :D


Thanks!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 03, 2012, 10:31:40 PM
I would like to see an acurate map of the Eyre and the Vale of Arryn.
They appear to be two diferent valleys. The maps avaliable do not represent the geography correctly, in a military manner.
I cannot make heads and tails of this piece of terrain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 03, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
I doubt Martin can either. The Vale always struck me as one of those only-in-fantasy-land places.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 03, 2012, 10:42:45 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 03, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
I doubt Martin can either. The Vale always struck me as one of those only-in-fantasy-land places.

All of Westeros struck me as that.  It's suppose to be the size of South America, but they move around it fairly quick, and there's only like five cities.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on March 04, 2012, 09:13:26 AM
That's one of the things I find so odd about the series. People praise the ASOIF for its worldbuilding, but it feels... thin.There isn't a lot of thought about how the world described would actually work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sahib on March 04, 2012, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 03, 2012, 10:42:45 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 03, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
I doubt Martin can either. The Vale always struck me as one of those only-in-fantasy-land places.

All of Westeros struck me as that.  It's suppose to be the size of South America, but they move around it fairly quick, and there's only like five cities.

Still more than in the Middle Earth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 04, 2012, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 03, 2012, 08:31:15 PM
So, Tywin Lannister planned the whole thing about getting Robb Stark to marry Jeyne Westerling, to force the Freys to switch sides.
I was shocked when I found out. Wasn't this a little too cunning for the Lannisters, more like Varys' or Littlefinger's MO?

For Lannisters, yes. For Tywin, no. He is supposed to be devilishly smart. Only Tyrion comes close from the Lannister spawn. That is why they find themselves in deep shit when he croaks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 04, 2012, 12:37:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 04, 2012, 12:16:07 PMFor Lannisters, yes. For Tywin, no. He is supposed to be devilishly smart. Only Tyrion comes close from the Lannister spawn. That is why they find themselves in deep shit when he croaks.

Basically the Lannister faction loses Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, Kevan and Mace as wise heads in a week leaving Cersei in charge. That is why they find themselves in deep shit, it's not so much they lose the genius, it's more like they lose anybody competent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 04, 2012, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 03, 2012, 08:31:15 PM
So, Tywin Lannister planned the whole thing about getting Robb Stark to marry Jeyne Westerling, to force the Freys to switch sides.
I was shocked when I found out. Wasn't this a little too cunning for the Lannisters, more like Varys' or Littlefinger's MO?

It was told on not so many words in book 3, I think.  Tyrion I believe confronted his father about his bannermans forgetting the famous song about the people who betraid Tywin Lannister in the past and his answer was that they didn't forget their duties.
Once you get to the actual marriage, it's easy to understand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 04, 2012, 02:11:16 PM
Yeah, that was a pretty bvious one - the moment I read that part I suspected that was a setup.

It was really well done - Robb turned out to be this very capable military leader, far beyond anyone's expectations. But at the end of the day, he was still just a boy, and done in by his being just a boy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 04, 2012, 04:21:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 04, 2012, 02:11:16 PM
Yeah, that was a pretty bvious one - the moment I read that part I suspected that was a setup.

It was really well done - Robb turned out to be this very capable military leader, far beyond anyone's expectations. But at the end of the day, he was still just a boy, and done in by his being just a boy.

It also was completely absurd, as a plot line.  How would Lannister know that Robb would be wounded, and, if wounded, taken to The Crag to be tended to? 

It works only if you don't pay too close attention, like many of Martin's plot devices.

But you are correct within the context of the story; Robb is defeated because he is still "the boy" enough to think himself so in love with someone he just met that he throws over his entire strategy for the war for the sake of that love.  It would have worked better if this had just been a chance meeting, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 04, 2012, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 04, 2012, 04:21:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 04, 2012, 02:11:16 PM
Yeah, that was a pretty bvious one - the moment I read that part I suspected that was a setup.

It was really well done - Robb turned out to be this very capable military leader, far beyond anyone's expectations. But at the end of the day, he was still just a boy, and done in by his being just a boy.

It also was completely absurd, as a plot line.  How would Lannister know that Robb would be wounded, and, if wounded, taken to The Crag to be tended to? 

It works only if you don't pay too close attention, like many of Martin's plot devices.

But you are correct within the context of the story; Robb is defeated because he is still "the boy" enough to think himself so in love with someone he just met that he throws over his entire strategy for the war for the sake of that love.  It would have worked better if this had just been a chance meeting, though.

I have to agree with Grumbles here.  The great plotters in the books must have supernatural prescience for their schemes to work.   They often hinge on events they simply can't control and it's often difficult to see how they would even benefit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on March 04, 2012, 07:40:58 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on March 04, 2012, 09:13:26 AM
That's one of the things I find so odd about the series. People praise the ASOIF for its worldbuilding, but it feels... thin.There isn't a lot of thought about how the world described would actually work.

That, and the fact that the various families have been around for thousands of years in some cases. It's just kind of weird.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 04, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 04, 2012, 07:40:58 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on March 04, 2012, 09:13:26 AM
That's one of the things I find so odd about the series. People praise the ASOIF for its worldbuilding, but it feels... thin.There isn't a lot of thought about how the world described would actually work.

That, and the fact that the various families have been around for thousands of years in some cases. It's just kind of weird.

I thought that strange as well.  Especially considering all the murdering they do to each other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on March 04, 2012, 08:51:21 PM
I like the trailer using Florence + The Machine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 04, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
I can certainly understand some questions about how the physics of the world would work (as far as decades long summer/winter, etc.), but to describe the "world" as thin? Huh?

That is kind of dumbfounding to me - Westeros is many things, but I cannot think of any fantasy ever (LotR excepted, although it has become so iconic it is kind of hard to really judge) that has a more real feel to the world the author created.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on March 04, 2012, 09:12:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 04, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
That is kind of dumbfounding to me - Westeros is many things, but I cannot think of any fantasy ever (LotR excepted, although it has become so iconic it is kind of hard to really judge) that has a more real feel to the world the author created.

Kate Elliot did pretty good with her Crossroads series and in only 3 books.  Not as admirable in her Crown of Stars series as that was really just fantasy Europe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on March 04, 2012, 09:17:31 PM
Martha Wells has done something of the same with several of her books although her country of Ile-Rien has been developed across time (different books take place in different eras) rather than so much on the geography.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 04, 2012, 10:02:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 04, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
I can certainly understand some questions about how the physics of the world would work (as far as decades long summer/winter, etc.), but to describe the "world" as thin? Huh?

That is kind of dumbfounding to me - Westeros is many things, but I cannot think of any fantasy ever (LotR excepted, although it has become so iconic it is kind of hard to really judge) that has a more real feel to the world the author created.

Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 04, 2012, 11:10:28 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 04, 2012, 07:40:58 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on March 04, 2012, 09:13:26 AM
That's one of the things I find so odd about the series. People praise the ASOIF for its worldbuilding, but it feels... thin.There isn't a lot of thought about how the world described would actually work.

That, and the fact that the various families have been around for thousands of years in some cases. It's just kind of weird.

I forgot in which book is it that a maester from the citadel says that the Age of Heroes was not 4000 years before but only half that much.
It brought the whole chronolgy under question.
IMO it is 1/4 of whatever time the myths claim.
Execpt the 300 years from Aegon's Conquest. That seems to be somewhat acurate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 05, 2012, 02:48:03 AM
The families being around forever thing did always get me in that there aren't many instances of off shoots of the great families.
Sure, there's the two Lannisters and the Karstarks but you'd expect there to be a bazillion minor Starks et al around after 1000s of years. But there isn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 15, 2012, 03:01:01 PM
GRR was visiting Toronto this week.  He's got 200 pages written on the 6th book, only 1300 to go!
He's already speaking of being late for the release...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 03:06:44 PM
I've grown my beard out.  I can do a passable impression of the man now.  It's weird.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 15, 2012, 03:34:35 PM
EW covers:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-1.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fi%2F2012%2F03%2F14%2F1199-cover-ew-d_300.jpg&hash=b5fbe111082c443a0a9bbb98ab794dbcb5dbe5e8)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-1.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fi%2F2012%2F03%2F14%2F1199-cover-ew_300.jpg&hash=74a03efbf2f57cbe8c963023e1cc76d97476f158)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-1.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fi%2F2012%2F03%2F14%2F1199-cover-ew-k_300.jpg&hash=c4e33e925143e70a24a24b013a36badc996c369a)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-1.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fi%2F2012%2F03%2F14%2F1199-cover-ew-l_300.jpg&hash=cb412f79b08622472dcee6d6eb88aedfdb33ac59)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on March 15, 2012, 03:39:30 PM
More side boob, please.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 15, 2012, 03:42:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 03:06:44 PM
I've grown my beard out.  I can do a passable impression of the man now.  It's weird.

Any plans to finish the series when he kicks the bucket?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on March 15, 2012, 06:01:50 PM
Isn't Jaime Lannister supposed to have blonde hair? Didn't he have much lighter hair in the first season?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 15, 2012, 07:07:04 PM
I read that comment first and thought "dirt", then I looked at the previous page and thought "who the heck is that guy?"
Yes. Weird change.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 07:14:41 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 15, 2012, 03:42:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 03:06:44 PM
I've grown my beard out.  I can do a passable impression of the man now.  It's weird.

Any plans to finish the series when he kicks the bucket?

I can barely write a readable post.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on March 17, 2012, 02:58:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 07:14:41 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 15, 2012, 03:42:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 03:06:44 PM
I've grown my beard out.  I can do a passable impression of the man now.  It's weird.

Any plans to finish the series when he kicks the bucket?

I can barely write a readable post.
Puts you light-years ahead of Martin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 17, 2012, 07:33:26 PM
Actually, I think his writing style is pretty good.  It's clean and the writing flows pretty well.  The problem is that he has lost sight of what he originally wanted to do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 17, 2012, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 15, 2012, 03:01:01 PM
GRR was visiting Toronto this week.  He's got 200 pages written on the 6th book, only 1300 to go!
He's already speaking of being late for the release...
I'm amazed he's already got 200 pages done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 17, 2012, 09:30:36 PM
I'm not.  He was very open about some of the chapters that had been written for the 5th book being shifted to the 6th.  There's no telling how much of that 200 pages is actually stuff he's written since the release.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 17, 2012, 09:45:04 PM
So, who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
It wasn't that clear in Meeras' story. It could have been either Howland Reed or Eddard Stark.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 17, 2012, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 17, 2012, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 15, 2012, 03:01:01 PM
GRR was visiting Toronto this week.  He's got 200 pages written on the 6th book, only 1300 to go!
He's already speaking of being late for the release...
I'm amazed he's already got 200 pages done.

Half of it is actually just Kirk/Spock fan fiction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 17, 2012, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 17, 2012, 09:45:04 PM
So, who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
It wasn't that clear in Meeras' story. It could have been either Howland Reed or Eddard Stark.

My money's on Lyanna Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on March 18, 2012, 06:51:42 AM
The wife and I just started watching GoT.  Pretty decent, although I felt the throw Bran from the window scene was insufficiently casually played.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 18, 2012, 10:26:53 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 17, 2012, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 17, 2012, 09:45:04 PM
So, who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
It wasn't that clear in Meeras' story. It could have been either Howland Reed or Eddard Stark.

My money's on Lyanna Stark.

Whoa, good point. I hadn't considered this possibility.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2012, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: Scipio on March 18, 2012, 06:51:42 AM
The wife and I just started watching GoT.  Pretty decent, although I felt the throw Bran from the window scene was insufficiently casually played.
What exactly do you mean?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 18, 2012, 08:34:50 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 18, 2012, 10:26:53 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 17, 2012, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 17, 2012, 09:45:04 PM
So, who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
It wasn't that clear in Meeras' story. It could have been either Howland Reed or Eddard Stark.

My money's on Lyanna Stark.

Whoa, good point. I hadn't considered this possibility.

The reasons I think it is Lyanna Stark as as follows.

1 - It has been clearly established that Lyanna Stark was a Tomboy (much liky Arya) who rode and fought much like her brothers. This rules out Howland Reed since Meera established at the start of her story that the "little crannogman" didn't ride a horse.

2 - The two details apart from the device on the shield that meera has in the story about the armour is that it fit badly and the knight was small. This rules out Benjen, Eddard, Brandon and Rickard Stark.

3 - Finally the purpose the knight of the Laughing Tree was to get the knight to chastise their bullying squires. Which is what Lyanna had tried to do when she saved the "little crannogman" from the squires in the first place.

Warning - Hideous, possibly spoilerizing, speculation.

It's at this point that Rhaegar, possibly using a glass candle, finds out that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna and realizes that he had been interpreting the prophecies about the prince who was promised wrong and realizes that she will be the mother. That is why he wins the tourney and makes her the queen of love a beauty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 18, 2012, 08:53:22 PM
I think Viking's theories are correct.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 18, 2012, 09:30:35 PM
Yeah, seems quite clearly Lyanna to me too. Fits in with the whole Rhaegar, baby Jon thing too.
Though...it does seem a bit cliched fantasy. Wonder how it will play out with Martin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 18, 2012, 09:32:36 PM
I need to get my hands on a copy of book 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 18, 2012, 09:56:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on March 18, 2012, 09:30:35 PM
Yeah, seems quite clearly Lyanna to me too. Fits in with the whole Rhaegar, baby Jon thing too.
Though...it does seem a bit cliched fantasy. Wonder how it will play out with Martin.

The dead characters will come back and the living ones will die.  Then come back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 19, 2012, 06:10:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 18, 2012, 08:34:50 PM
Warning - Hideous, possibly spoilerizing, speculation.

It's at this point that Rhaegar, possibly using a glass candle, finds out that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna and realizes that he had been interpreting the prophecies about the prince who was promised wrong and realizes that she will be the mother. That is why he wins the tourney and makes her the queen of love a beauty.

Ok, you lost me here. What is a glass candle?
And the prophecies about the prince that was promised, how was he interpreting them wrong?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 19, 2012, 06:11:48 PM
Ok, nevemind about the glass candle:

"A glass candle is a candle made of obsidian. Historically they burned, but they have not been reported to burn in recent memory. One green and three black candles were brought to the Citadel a thousand years before the Doom of Valyria. It is unknown if all glass candles are alike, but the ones found at the Citadel are tall and twisted.

The night before an acolyte of the Citadel says his vows, he must stand a vigil in a vault with nothing but the three black candles and no other light permitted. They must spend the night in darkness unless they can light the candle. According to the maesters, it is to show that even with all the knowledge one has acquired, there are still some things that are impossible."

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 19, 2012, 06:13:33 PM
Rhaegar had a glass candle?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 19, 2012, 08:48:42 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 19, 2012, 06:10:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 18, 2012, 08:34:50 PM
Warning - Hideous, possibly spoilerizing, speculation.

It's at this point that Rhaegar, possibly using a glass candle, finds out that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna and realizes that he had been interpreting the prophecies about the prince who was promised wrong and realizes that she will be the mother. That is why he wins the tourney and makes her the queen of love a beauty.

Ok, you lost me here. What is a glass candle?
And the prophecies about the prince that was promised, how was he interpreting them wrong?

We don't know what the prophesies were specifically but we know Rhaegar has two harsh changes of character, first when he decides to learn the sword and second when he kidnapps Lyanna. I'm speculating, but I thinnk both are prophecy related.

The glass candle can allow the user to see far places. It's just that nobody seems to be able to get it to work. Again, mere speculation on my part.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on March 19, 2012, 09:22:45 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2012, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: Scipio on March 18, 2012, 06:51:42 AM
The wife and I just started watching GoT.  Pretty decent, although I felt the throw Bran from the window scene was insufficiently casually played.
What exactly do you mean?
He seemed to actually give a shit at the time.  Which does not match my reading of the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 19, 2012, 09:52:20 PM
Quote from: Scipio on March 19, 2012, 09:22:45 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2012, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: Scipio on March 18, 2012, 06:51:42 AM
The wife and I just started watching GoT.  Pretty decent, although I felt the throw Bran from the window scene was insufficiently casually played.
What exactly do you mean?
He seemed to actually give a shit at the time.  Which does not match my reading of the book.

The account in the first book was from Bran's POV, later on you revisit it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 20, 2012, 04:29:23 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2012, 08:48:42 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 19, 2012, 06:10:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 18, 2012, 08:34:50 PM
Warning - Hideous, possibly spoilerizing, speculation.

It's at this point that Rhaegar, possibly using a glass candle, finds out that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna and realizes that he had been interpreting the prophecies about the prince who was promised wrong and realizes that she will be the mother. That is why he wins the tourney and makes her the queen of love a beauty.

Ok, you lost me here. What is a glass candle?
And the prophecies about the prince that was promised, how was he interpreting them wrong?

We don't know what the prophesies were specifically but we know Rhaegar has two harsh changes of character, first when he decides to learn the sword and second when he kidnapps Lyanna. I'm speculating, but I thinnk both are prophecy related.

The glass candle can allow the user to see far places. It's just that nobody seems to be able to get it to work. Again, mere speculation on my part.

You don't really need glass candles when you can have prophetic dreams pulled from your ass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 21, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2012, 09:52:20 PM
Quote from: Scipio on March 19, 2012, 09:22:45 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2012, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: Scipio on March 18, 2012, 06:51:42 AM
The wife and I just started watching GoT.  Pretty decent, although I felt the throw Bran from the window scene was insufficiently casually played.
What exactly do you mean?
He seemed to actually give a shit at the time.  Which does not match my reading of the book.

The account in the first book was from Bran's POV, later on you revisit it.

The difficulty is that in between so many seemingly meaningless dead end story lines are introduced that one cannot be blamed for no longer caring about any of the plot lines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 21, 2012, 03:10:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 21, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
The difficulty is that in between so many seemingly meaningless dead end story lines are introduced that one cannot be blamed for no longer caring about any of the plot lines.

So don't read it then?

I was just addressing Scipio's point; tossing the boy did bother Lannister in the books, so there's no inconsistency here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 21, 2012, 08:31:03 PM
This is the bestest of threads!

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2012, 04:38:41 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 21, 2012, 03:10:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 21, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
The difficulty is that in between so many seemingly meaningless dead end story lines are introduced that one cannot be blamed for no longer caring about any of the plot lines.

So don't read it then?

I was just addressing Scipio's point; tossing the boy did bother Lannister in the books, so there's no inconsistency here.

Later he certainly did, after he had time to reflect and everything.

At the time though....all we have is Bran's POV and from there it seemed he was rather non-chalant about itt and though POVs make assumptions about others they tend not to make stuff up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 22, 2012, 04:40:53 AM
We do not get a Jaime PoV until the third book IIRC - so him being nonchalant about it before could have been just an act (after all he acts that way about everything).

You are like the people who claim that Renly and Loras are not gay in the books because there is no scene of them fucking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 22, 2012, 04:47:53 AM
Jaimie didn't care until he was confronted with a situation where his honour was his only remaining shield and he was confronted with a knight with true honour (brienne). When he no longer had his sword and name to hide behind he only had his reputation. His reputation was shit so he had no shield to hide behind. His sworn oath meant nothing, he kept bitching about how Caitlyn Stark released him based on a report of the imp's word but no oath he could swear would satisfy.

That's when he started caring about his honour; when he was chained, imprisoned and de-manipulated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2012, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 04, 2012, 04:21:14 PM
It also was completely absurd, as a plot line.  How would Lannister know that Robb would be wounded, and, if wounded, taken to The Crag to be tended to?

I guess I thought Tywin was taking advantage of events, not set the whole thing up beforehand.  I mean the girl seems to have not been in on the plot and since she was the key to whole thing...I don't know I do not recall ever being under the impression he did anythng but find out what was going on and take advantage of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2012, 12:47:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 17, 2012, 08:51:43 PM
I'm amazed he's already got 200 pages done.

Don't be amazed.  He will probably not actually use much of that.  He had practically anotehr entire book worth of material he did not actually use for ADWD.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 22, 2012, 01:12:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2012, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 04, 2012, 04:21:14 PM
It also was completely absurd, as a plot line.  How would Lannister know that Robb would be wounded, and, if wounded, taken to The Crag to be tended to?

I guess I thought Tywin was taking advantage of events, not set the whole thing up beforehand.  I mean the girl seems to have not been in on the plot and since she was the key to whole thing...I don't know I do not recall ever being under the impression he did anythng but find out what was going on and take advantage of it.

Sybell Spicer (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sybell_Spicer), Jeyne Westerling (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling)'s mother, is thought to be the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maggy_the_Frog). Sybell's ancestry in addition to her name meaning prophetess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl) suggests that she might be in posession of some prophetic information about Rob's and Jeyne's near futures. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 22, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
I got the feeling that Martin changed his mind about what he wanted to do with the Lannisters after the first book.  I wonder if the started out with an outline but at some point just threw it away and makes up shit as he goes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 22, 2012, 03:02:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2012, 04:40:53 AM
You are like the people who claim that Renly and Loras are not gay in the books because there is no scene of them fucking.
true, it's quite obvious in all books that they're gay, everyone is just about saying so without using the words.  I think only Sansa and Brienne have dreams about those two and chose to ignore all the signs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 22, 2012, 03:06:35 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 22, 2012, 03:02:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2012, 04:40:53 AM
You are like the people who claim that Renly and Loras are not gay in the books because there is no scene of them fucking.
true, it's quite obvious in all books that they're gay, everyone is just about saying so without using the words.  I think only Sansa and Brienne have dreams about those two and chose to ignore all the signs.

Meh.. fag hags...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 22, 2012, 07:56:01 PM
Why did GRRM treated Brienne so bad?
I would have liked her character if she had looked like Sansa.

Anyway, I like that the stars have diferent names below the wall and beyong the wall.
The Stallion, The Galley, The Moonmaid, The King's Crown, The Shadowcat, The Ice Dragon, The Sword of the Morning...

Can you imagine the fight between Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne?
Two dudes with huge massive humungus swords.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 22, 2012, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 22, 2012, 07:56:01 PM
Why did GRRM treated Brienne so bad?
I would have liked her character if she had looked like Sansa.

If she looked like Sansa, her character wouldn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2012, 10:14:23 PM
Yeah, that was the whole point. A realistic warrior lady rather than the typical unrealistic fantasy trope of a hottie in a chainmail bikini.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 22, 2012, 10:15:11 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 22, 2012, 07:56:01 PM
Can you imagine the fight between Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne?
Two dudes with huge massive humungus swords.

...and ultimately won by a little dude with a frog-spear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 22, 2012, 10:31:51 PM
No doubt though, that Jon is Rhaegar's son, because otherwise the 3 dudes from the royal guard wouldn't have been there.
They would have been at the Trident, in which case Robert's Rebellion would have been crushed, which in turn brings to mind Rhaegar's stupidity.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 22, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 22, 2012, 10:15:11 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 22, 2012, 07:56:01 PM
Can you imagine the fight between Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne?
Two dudes with huge massive humungus swords.

...and ultimately won by a little dude with a frog-spear.

I somehow doubt that a little dude with a frog spear can beat a fully armored knight of the White Guard, wielding the greatest sword ever made.
Something else happened there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 23, 2012, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2012, 10:14:23 PM
Yeah, that was the whole point. A realistic warrior lady rather than the typical unrealistic fantasy trope of a hottie in a chainmail bikini.

Yeah, real life female warriors didn't look like Red Sonja.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 23, 2012, 02:15:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 22, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
I somehow doubt that a little dude with a frog spear can beat a fully armored knight of the White Guard, wielding the greatest sword ever made.
Something else happened there.

Well, The Red Viper almost won his fight against the Mountain.  Had he not been careless in the end, he would have won.  In fact, in a real battle, he would have stabbed him a couple of times, then left him to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 23, 2012, 02:30:10 PM
I didn't think Oberyn intended to win.  Or at least didn't think he would have.  I thought his goal was make Clegane die in agony from poison.  Don't know what you are talking about "in a real battle".  Human beings are funny.  Sometimes one blow is enough to kill a full grown man.  Some times a person can take dozens of stab wounds and survive.  It can be hard to kill a person.  In a melee battle between two armored opponents it would be hard to tell which blows are fatal and which aren't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 23, 2012, 02:35:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 23, 2012, 02:30:10 PM
I didn't think Oberyn intended to win.  Or at least didn't think he would have.  I thought his goal was make Clegane die in agony from poison.  Don't know what you are talking about "in a real battle".  Human beings are funny.  Sometimes one blow is enough to kill a full grown man.  Some times a person can take dozens of stab wounds and survive.  It can be hard to kill a person.  In a melee battle between two armored opponents it would be hard to tell which blows are fatal and which aren't.

He wanted him to confess the murder of his sister and nephews, the death in agony was icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2012, 02:42:53 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 23, 2012, 02:10:18 PM
Red Sonja.


:mmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 23, 2012, 05:34:49 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2012, 02:35:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 23, 2012, 02:30:10 PM
I didn't think Oberyn intended to win.  Or at least didn't think he would have.  I thought his goal was make Clegane die in agony from poison.  Don't know what you are talking about "in a real battle".  Human beings are funny.  Sometimes one blow is enough to kill a full grown man.  Some times a person can take dozens of stab wounds and survive.  It can be hard to kill a person.  In a melee battle between two armored opponents it would be hard to tell which blows are fatal and which aren't.

He wanted him to confess the murder of his sister and nephews, the death in agony was icing on the cake.

That. Plus it was a delicious deconstruction of the Inigo Montoya trope.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 23, 2012, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 23, 2012, 05:34:49 PM
That. Plus it was a delicious deconstruction of the Inigo Montoya trope.

Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on March 24, 2012, 07:16:45 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdni.condenast.co.uk%2F320x480%2Fd_f%2FEClarke02_GQ_6Mar12_LeoCackett_b.jpg&hash=2ce3460999269c223826ef0688130be28caef14c) (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdni.condenast.co.uk%2F320x480%2Fd_f%2FEClarke01_GQ_6Mar12_LeoCackett_b.jpg&hash=0ff87cf4e2235b15e535996a068b8b5a61462981)




GQ photoshoot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujY4ckQHLC4



(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2FEmilia-Clarke-in-GQ-2012-02-520x674.jpg&hash=ede04c2ed833b291eef807b2e69d186fcc5196e5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 24, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 23, 2012, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 23, 2012, 05:34:49 PM
That. Plus it was a delicious deconstruction of the Inigo Montoya trope.

Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die?

Yeah. It gets subverted because he dies himself. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 24, 2012, 10:59:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 24, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 23, 2012, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 23, 2012, 05:34:49 PM
That. Plus it was a delicious deconstruction of the Inigo Montoya trope.

Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die?

Yeah. It gets subverted because he dies himself. :P

Gregor Clegaine might not have 6 fingers, but he is 8 feet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 24, 2012, 11:44:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 23, 2012, 02:30:10 PM
I didn't think Oberyn intended to win.  Or at least didn't think he would have.  I thought his goal was make Clegane die in agony from poison.  Don't know what you are talking about "in a real battle".  Human beings are funny.  Sometimes one blow is enough to kill a full grown man.  Some times a person can take dozens of stab wounds and survive.  It can be hard to kill a person.  In a melee battle between two armored opponents it would be hard to tell which blows are fatal and which aren't.
there's limited space of movement, one cannot leave the field until the other one is fully dead, you can't use objects around you, etc, etc.
It's a duel, not a battle in a war.

In a war, you could have little men with poisoned spears ambushing an army of knights and winning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 24, 2012, 12:00:41 PM
Trial by combat is not to the death traditionally it was until one side either yeilded (by yelling "Craven" which is french for something) or was dead or disabled. So you can lose by submission, getting knocked out, getting maimed or getting killed.''


But, yes, taking slow acting poison to a trial by combat seems silly unless you expect to be able to disable your opponent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 24, 2012, 12:07:32 PM
Yes, but they would often hang you afterwords for being an oath breaker.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 24, 2012, 01:02:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 24, 2012, 12:00:41 PM
Trial by combat is not to the death traditionally it was until one side either yeilded (by yelling "Craven" which is french for something) or was dead or disabled. So you can lose by submission, getting knocked out, getting maimed or getting killed.''


But, yes, taking slow acting poison to a trial by combat seems silly unless you expect to be able to disable your opponent.

Oberyn was not using poison to win, but to make sure that no matter who wins, the Mountain dies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 24, 2012, 03:38:24 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 24, 2012, 12:00:41 PM
(by yelling "Craven" which is french for something)
never heard this word in French...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 24, 2012, 04:00:02 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 24, 2012, 03:38:24 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 24, 2012, 12:00:41 PM
(by yelling "Craven" which is french for something)
never heard this word in French...

OMG, you just set yourself up too easily... so here is the home run...

"the word craven is redundant when referring to frenchmen"

I suppose it is medieval french.

Quote from: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cravencraven Look up craven at Dictionary.com
    early 13c., cravant, perhaps from O.Fr. crevante "defeated," pp. of cravanter "to strike down, to fall down," from L. crepare "to crack, creak." Sense affected by crave and moved from "defeated" to "cowardly" (c.1400) perhaps via intermediary sense of "confess oneself defeated."

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 24, 2012, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 24, 2012, 04:00:02 PM
OMG, you just set yourself up too easily... so here is the home run...

"the word craven is redundant when referring to frenchmen"

You were thrown out at 3rd trying to stretch that one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:03:04 AM
Stop hijacking the thread talking about the french.
They are not important.

So, was Lord Commander Mormont a half-skinchanger?
Where ever he went, his raven went first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:03:04 AM
Stop hijacking the thread talking about the french.
They are not important.

So, was Lord Commander Mormont a half-skinchanger?
Where ever he went, his raven went first.

The books are modeled on the actions of French speakers. :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:23:29 AM
Also, is the moon of Westeros smaller than our moon?
There are several references to the sky full of stars with the moon out.
Jon Snow said he never seen so many stars, and he talks about the moon in the smae sentence.

Is the moonmaid another moon or a big star?

Is there a frozen continent North of Essa (eastern continent)?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:24:15 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:03:04 AM
Stop hijacking the thread talking about the french.
They are not important.

So, was Lord Commander Mormont a half-skinchanger?
Where ever he went, his raven went first.

The books are modeled on the actions of French speakers. :huh:

What? The Anjous?
No way.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:34:10 AM
Well probably not.  I think the English nobility were already speaking English as their primary language by the 15th century, though I think laws were still written in French during the time of Richard III.  Still most of them probably knew French, and some may spoken French and not English.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 25, 2012, 01:35:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:03:04 AM

So, was Lord Commander Mormont a half-skinchanger?
Where ever he went, his raven went first.

We don't know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 25, 2012, 01:36:53 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:23:29 AM
Is there a frozen continent North of Essa (eastern continent)?

It's called Ibben (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ibben)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 25, 2012, 01:48:47 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:23:29 AM
Is the moonmaid another moon or a big star?

The Moonmaid appears to be a constellation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
The books are modeled on the actions of French speakers. :huh:
actually, it's very British.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on March 26, 2012, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 25, 2012, 01:35:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:03:04 AM

So, was Lord Commander Mormont a half-skinchanger?
Where ever he went, his raven went first.

We don't know.

That's actually a really interesting thought, and would make a bit of sense.  I can't be assed to look now, but I feel like the raven was acting more odd than usual even in the last book towards the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 26, 2012, 01:20:08 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 26, 2012, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 25, 2012, 01:35:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 25, 2012, 01:03:04 AM

So, was Lord Commander Mormont a half-skinchanger?
Where ever he went, his raven went first.

We don't know.

That's actually a really interesting thought, and would make a bit of sense.  I can't be assed to look now, but I feel like the raven was acting more odd than usual even in the last book towards the end.

Just think of the Nights Watch selection when the Crow crawed "Jon Snow", which Sam didn't train him to do. If mormont was a skinchanger and the crow was his familiar he might have joined with the crow on his death (as explained in the Varimir Sixskins prelude).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 26, 2012, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
The books are modeled on the actions of French speakers. :huh:
actually, it's very British.

You didn't get viking's point, did you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 26, 2012, 03:22:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 26, 2012, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
The books are modeled on the actions of French speakers. :huh:
actually, it's very British.

You didn't get viking's point, did you?

Expecting reasonableness from Raz is, eh, unreasonable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 26, 2012, 04:03:57 PM
True, but I recognize my shortcomings in this department.  I fear you do not.  Also I think Marty was responding to Viper.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 04:04:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 26, 2012, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 25, 2012, 01:11:22 AM
The books are modeled on the actions of French speakers. :huh:
actually, it's very British.

You didn't get viking's point, did you?
Did he make a point?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 04:09:18 PM
The most entertaining option would be if Marti explained what he thought the point was - complete with analogies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 26, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 04:09:18 PM
The most entertaining option would be if Marti explained what he thought the point was - complete with analogies.


The point is that Renly and Loras are gay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 26, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 04:09:18 PM
The most entertaining option would be if Marti explained what he thought the point was - complete with analogies.


The point is that Renly and Loras are gay.

No, the point is that they both had a foot fetish even though the book didnt make that explicit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 26, 2012, 04:22:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 04:09:18 PM
The most entertaining option would be if Marti explained what he thought the point was - complete with analogies.

Save me from the "logic" of the gheys; and the "analogies" of the gheys for that matter. Marty's like

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraybriant.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2Fsquirrel.jpg&hash=3879993ef2319d59e9eede0f75903abc638f1a14)

only with abs replacing squirrels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:47:14 PM
So, Melissandre came out to Stannis with 3 leeches full of Cedric Storm's blood, royal blood, and Stannis took them one by one threw then into the fire, naming an "usurper" at a time. One for Joff, one for Greyjoy, and one our beloved Robb Stark. They all died.

What was the meaning of this? That Melissandre have the "real" religion? That the red priests have the True Religion (tm) and all others are wrong?
I think GRRM fucked this one up. Melissandre is way overpowered if she can kill people just by dropping leeches in the fire. Thoros is way overpowered if he can revive people at his wimp.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:47:14 PM
So, Melissandre came out to Stannis with 3 leeches full of Cedric Storm's blood, royal blood, and Stannis took them one by one threw then into the fire, naming an "usurper" at a time. One for Joff, one for Greyjoy, and one our beloved Robb Stark. They all died.

What was the meaning of this? That Melissandre have the "real" religion? That the red priests have the True Religion (tm) and all others are wrong?
I think GRRM fucked this one up. Melissandre is way overpowered if she can kill people just by dropping leeches in the fire. Thoros is way overpowered if he can revive people at his wimp.

Its always the PvPers crying for nerfs that screw up a good game.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:57:14 PM
What's a PvPer and what's a nerf?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 26, 2012, 06:00:33 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:57:14 PM
What's a PvPer and what's a nerf?

PvP = Player vs Player

Nerf = a reduction in difficulty or strength, derived from the toy "Nerf Football".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on March 26, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Yeah I forgot about the leeches.  And it does appear that the red religion is the only real religion at this point, or one capable of.....doing things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 26, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 26, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Yeah I forgot about the leeches.  And it does appear that the red religion is the only real religion at this point, or one capable of.....doing things.

The Old Gods have done stuff, peeping tom stuff, but stuff still. Now with Dragons born magic returns. The Alchemists comment on this as well as Melisandre when she has a pov with her preparing her powders.

Magic is connected to the Wall and Dragons. The faith of the seven has hid behind the wall for thousands of years and dragon free for thousands of years until the arrival of the targaryens. So I don't expect that they are very magic friendly. The Maesters do study it, but have given up on it for the most part (probably due to the lack of dragons and others).

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 26, 2012, 08:39:37 PM
Aren't the Red Priests more powerful now also since the magic has been returning? I'd say it's all part of the same thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 26, 2012, 09:12:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 26, 2012, 05:52:20 PM
Its always the PvPers crying for nerfs that screw up a good game.

US soldiers vs. Afghan rebels is imba.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 26, 2012, 11:54:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 12:02:57 PM
actually, it's very British.

Interesting.  If the Seven Kingdoms were done French-style how would it be different?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Alcibiades on March 27, 2012, 02:27:45 AM
At the end of the 5th book, what was going on exactly?  I realized I was supposed to be drawing connections and stuff, but I don't  think I quite got it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 27, 2012, 03:27:44 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:47:14 PM
So, Melissandre came out to Stannis with 3 leeches full of Cedric Storm's blood, royal blood, and Stannis took them one by one threw then into the fire, naming an "usurper" at a time. One for Joff, one for Greyjoy, and one our beloved Robb Stark. They all died.

What was the meaning of this? That Melissandre have the "real" religion? That the red priests have the True Religion (tm) and all others are wrong?
I think GRRM fucked this one up. Melissandre is way overpowered if she can kill people just by dropping leeches in the fire. Thoros is way overpowered if he can revive people at his wimp.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 27, 2012, 03:38:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 26, 2012, 11:54:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 26, 2012, 12:02:57 PM
actually, it's very British.

Interesting.  If the Seven Kingdoms were done French-style how would it be different?

I think the Seven Kingdoms work better with European analogies but with some notable "War of Roses" tinge to it.

Only the North has a distinct British analogy (Scotland) that works better than anything else. Casterly Rock, King's Landing, Storm's End and Dragon Stone (is that the name?) are pretty generic feudal places that could work in England as much as anywhere else in Western Europe.

Dorne is definitely non-British and is reminiscent of Spain or perhaps Southern Italy. The Reach is most like Southern France and again does not have any close similarities to any part of Britain. The Iron Isles are like Norway or the like.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 27, 2012, 03:41:16 AM
However, what I think Raz was alluding to in his post is that the British (especially, English) nobility around the time in history that the books imitate (some early 14th century) did indeed mainly speak French. So if you consider the fact that pretty much every Westeros Kingdom (except perhaps Dorne) could be placed in Britain or France of that period, and the fact that the series concentrates on noble families, saying that it imitates "French speakers" is perhaps the closest you can get to reality with a short answer .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on March 27, 2012, 05:00:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2012, 03:41:16 AM
However, what I think Raz was alluding to in his post is that the British (especially, English) nobility around the time in history that the books imitate (some early 14th century) did indeed mainly speak French. So if you consider the fact that pretty much every Westeros Kingdom (except perhaps Dorne) could be placed in Britain or France of that period, and the fact that the series concentrates on noble families, saying that it imitates "French speakers" is perhaps the closest you can get to reality with a short answer .

What's the POINT of all this?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 27, 2012, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:47:14 PM
What was the meaning of this? That Melissandre have the "real" religion? That the red priests have the True Religion (tm) and all others are wrong?
it's up to you to decide if it's Faith or if it's a coincidence.  I vote for the latter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 27, 2012, 09:42:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 26, 2012, 11:54:56 PM
Interesting.  If the Seven Kingdoms were done French-style how would it be different?
only the geography would change :P
Medieval French and England were quite similar.  I was responding non sensical stuff to Raz.

It's just that when I read the books, I figure England in mind.  Hadrian's Wall, the frozen north (Scotland), the way Westeros is formed looks to me like a reverse image of England, the constant infighting for the throne reminscent of England's civil wars (War of the Roses, John Lackland and Richard Lionheart, Cromwell, etc), the invasion by the Andals=The Normans invading England, and many other references.

Dorne, with its mountain pass might be like Spain and the Pyrénés, or Italy with the Alps, places to difficult to access by land yet not really impossible.  But culturally, it reminds me of Wale: a distinct kingdom within a kingdom.  Really, when we think of the Seven Kingdoms, we don't see them as totally different from one another, aside Dorne.  Well, maybe also the Viking pirates and their Drown God are different.  Probably a mix between Barabry Pirates and the Viking invasions taking place in medieval england.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 27, 2012, 09:53:13 AM
I think the Andals= the Anglo-Saxons while the Targarians=the Normans and the First men= the Britons.  But you are right.  England and France were very similar during the period.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 28, 2012, 02:41:39 PM
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/)

Six preview clips from the first episode of the 2nd season have been made available. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 29, 2012, 06:46:08 AM
This show needs a spin-off show just showing adventures of Tyrion and Bronn. It could be called "One and a Half-Man"  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 29, 2012, 06:46:08 AM
This show needs a spin-off show just showing adventures of Tyrion and Bronn. It could be called "One and a Half-Man"  :P

That joke is almost one year old.  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi358XpWQwk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi358XpWQwk)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2012, 09:49:35 AM
Apparently GoT is a big hit in Germany.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/game-thrones-a-ratings-hit-304134
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2012, 04:18:03 PM
Watched a little bit of the Season 2 preview show the other night, with a bunch of interviews and a smattering of clips.

The dragon princess chick is a lot cuter with her own hair.

The Lannister scion appears to be some kind of eastern European dude in real life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2012, 04:18:03 PMThe Lannister scion appears to be some kind of eastern European dude in real life.

Who? Nicolaj Coster-Waldau, the actor that plays Jaime Lannister is Danish, and Peter Dinklage, the one who plays Tyrion is from New Jersey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2012, 04:32:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 04:29:28 PM
Who? Nicolaj Coster-Waldau, the actor that plays Jaime Lannister is Danish, and Peter Dinklage, the one who plays Tyrion is from New Jersey.

Nicolaj.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 29, 2012, 04:55:14 PM
Danes are Eastern European, now?   :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:29:38 PM
He doesn't speak with an accent...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 28, 2012, 02:41:39 PM
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/)

Six preview clips from the first episode of the 2nd season have been made available. Enjoy!

AAAaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!

That was so fucking cool. In the last one, Tyrion is looking more and more like the mental image I had of him.
Wans't Ser Cleos Frey a little too young, though?
And Cersei was raveging, as always.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2012, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 29, 2012, 04:55:14 PM
Danes are Eastern European, now?   :hmm:

Of course not.  But some of them appear to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 28, 2012, 02:41:39 PM
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/)

Six preview clips from the first episode of the 2nd season have been made available. Enjoy!
Wans't Ser Cleos Frey a little too young, though?

That character is not Cleos Frey, but a brand new Lannister that doesn't appear in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 29, 2012, 07:24:42 PM
What? Are the starting to fuck this thing up?

[Zorg] I am DISAPPOINTED!!! [/Zorg]

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on March 29, 2012, 07:44:01 PM
Tyrion makes this show all by himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on March 29, 2012, 07:46:03 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 28, 2012, 02:41:39 PM
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/)

Six preview clips from the first episode of the 2nd season have been made available. Enjoy!
Wans't Ser Cleos Frey a little too young, though?

That character is not Cleos Frey, but a brand new Lannister that doesn't appear in the books.
that's always a bad sign
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 29, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
Bronn vs Ser Vardis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN30YMzja6Y&feature=related
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 29, 2012, 08:09:10 PM
Bronn doesn't look too swordy.
He makes a couple mistakes that would have cost him his life in a real fight.
He let himself to get forced his back against the hole.
Vardis only had to keep the momentum to make Bronn fly.

Vardis sucks more. With shield and sword he could have easily double swinged Bronn out of balance.
Shields aint just something you hold up so the other dude can slam his sword into it.
Shields are an offensive weapon as well, a battering ram or blunting edge.
Even big kite-shields.

Some tips about swordfighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Ms9RMH7IA&feature=related
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 08:12:02 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 29, 2012, 07:46:03 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 28, 2012, 02:41:39 PM
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/six-clips-from-ep-11-the-north-remembers/)

Six preview clips from the first episode of the 2nd season have been made available. Enjoy!
Wans't Ser Cleos Frey a little too young, though?

That character is not Cleos Frey, but a brand new Lannister that doesn't appear in the books.
that's always a bad sign

This season will feature a few more profound deviations from the books than that, introducing new minor characters (or changing the names of others, as already happened in season one) won't be a big deal in comparison.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 29, 2012, 08:30:25 PM
Quote from: Viking on March 26, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on March 26, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Yeah I forgot about the leeches.  And it does appear that the red religion is the only real religion at this point, or one capable of.....doing things.

The Old Gods have done stuff, peeping tom stuff, but stuff still. Now with Dragons born magic returns. The Alchemists comment on this as well as Melisandre when she has a pov with her preparing her powders.

Magic is connected to the Wall and Dragons. The faith of the seven has hid behind the wall for thousands of years and dragon free for thousands of years until the arrival of the targaryens. So I don't expect that they are very magic friendly. The Maesters do study it, but have given up on it for the most part (probably due to the lack of dragons and others).


I disagree that Westeros have been Dragon free for thousands of years. Daenerys is at the Slavers Bay, farther away than Valyria was from Westeros, yet her dragons have a huge influence on magic and alchemy in Westeros. Since The Doom of Valyria happened 500 years before the books, and after the Doom the Targaryens had dragons at Dragonstone, therefore it is implied that Westeros have been always under the influence of Dragons.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 08:35:10 PM
It is well documented in the books that the last Targaryen dragons died out a couple hundred years before the action of the novels. They're not within living memory but they're a historical certainty, not some kind of legendary creatures.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 08:37:23 PM
And a couple more videos with the new stuff from the second season:

New Characters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWF929rlw10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWF929rlw10)

New Locations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipovPvkOnFc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipovPvkOnFc)

And an incredibly cheesy montage  :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2lzmHXcvR0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2lzmHXcvR0)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 29, 2012, 09:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
That character is not Cleos Frey, but a brand new Lannister that doesn't appear in the books.

Cleos Frey is being Replaced by Alton Lannister. Played by this guy

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2Fkarl-davies-236x300.jpg&hash=2c53a695a090f19c9803a7cd34f54fcaf3442b16)
Karl Davies

I presume they renamed the character to avoid the need to explain why a Frey (nominally Stark allies) was on the Lannister side. Apparently it it too complex to get in the exchange "Since my father Eamonn Frey was married to Tywins sister Genna he sided with the Lannisters over with siding with his father and elder brother Stevron" <brienne scowls at him showing obvious dissaproval, but before she can open her mouth Cleos continues> "It's not like we are the only ones doing it, Balon Swan is in the Kings guard while his brother Donnel is with Renly at Bitterbridge. I'm sure if Lord Gulian had a third son we would have seen him at Riverrun."

Since Cleos' fate is ultimately not supremely relevant to many others than himself and his mother and father. The problem is that with Ser Stevron dead at Oxcross Eamonn is first in line to the Twins and presumably will have Lannister backing for that seat as well (though with Cersei in charge she might try and give the title to a Kettleblack or Qyburn). How Black Walder or Lame Lothar deal with him is still up for discussion; and how they get at him behind the walls of Riverrun is also not clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on March 30, 2012, 12:34:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
And Cersei was raveging, as always.
You do realize how old she is, right? :yeahright:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 30, 2012, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on March 30, 2012, 12:34:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
And Cersei was raveging, as always.
You do realize how old she is, right? :yeahright:

Are you sure he was going for ravishing and not ravaging?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 30, 2012, 01:05:17 AM
Yeah, I guess having a Frey on the other side would only serve to make the audience go "OMGGGGGG, those Freys are definitely up to no good!!!" in too obvious a fashion.
Considering he isn't really relevant to much its best to keep him low key.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on March 30, 2012, 01:15:35 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 30, 2012, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on March 30, 2012, 12:34:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 29, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
And Cersei was raveging, as always.
You do realize how old she is, right? :yeahright:

Are you sure he was going for ravishing and not ravaging?  :hmm:
A valid point.  Perhaps when Siegey is in his cups (of Coors Light) he actually likes females his own age though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 01, 2012, 05:37:19 PM
A Storm of Swords in Ireland!  :licklips:

http://www.boomtron.com/2012/03/a-storm-of-swords-in-ireland-for-more-game-of-thrones/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2012, 09:08:14 PM
I assume every one has seen the series opener by now?

How about the Yuropeans?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 01, 2012, 09:21:54 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2012, 09:08:14 PM
I assume every one has seen the series opener by now?

How about the Yuropeans?

It's on in 40 minutes here in Soviet Canuckistan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 01, 2012, 10:01:41 PM
It surprisingly shows tonight in the UK.
I think I will save watching it until later. I should do something productive with my day.
But....tempting....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 01, 2012, 10:36:32 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 29, 2012, 08:37:23 PM
And a couple more videos with the new stuff from the second season:

New Characters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWF929rlw10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWF929rlw10)

New Locations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipovPvkOnFc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipovPvkOnFc)

And an incredibly cheesy montage  :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2lzmHXcvR0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2lzmHXcvR0)

BTW, the Iceland tourist board appreciates the publicity and hopes that tourists will now come in winter as well. Coming in winter, get it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.

Is Qarth based on Carthage?  Really looks to be, both stylistically and from what I am reading.  It even sounds like it; Qarth-Hadasht is the origin of Carthage, "New City".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 02, 2012, 12:12:42 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.


:x

Only if into pasty white chicks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2012, 12:19:07 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.

Is Qarth based on Carthage?  Really looks to be, both stylistically and from what I am reading.  It even sounds like it; Qarth-Hadasht is the origin of Carthage, "New City".

This makes Carthago Nova pretty much the most stupidly named city in world history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 02, 2012, 12:28:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2012, 12:19:07 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.

Is Qarth based on Carthage?  Really looks to be, both stylistically and from what I am reading.  It even sounds like it; Qarth-Hadasht is the origin of Carthage, "New City".

This makes Carthago Nova pretty much the most stupidly named city in world history.

Yes. My history teacher used to comment on that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2012, 12:30:36 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 02, 2012, 12:28:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2012, 12:19:07 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.

Is Qarth based on Carthage?  Really looks to be, both stylistically and from what I am reading.  It even sounds like it; Qarth-Hadasht is the origin of Carthage, "New City".

This makes Carthago Nova pretty much the most stupidly named city in world history.

Yes. My history teacher used to comment on that.

Ah, true history nerd street cred is getting harder and harder to come by.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:16:23 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2012, 09:08:14 PM
I assume every one has seen the series opener by now?

How about the Yuropeans?

It premieres on Monday here, just like the first season. Since Poland is ahead of the US in time zones, I presume it is so that the episodes are not leaked before they premiere in the US.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:18:34 AM
Actually, it seems to be available on my HBO GO since yesterday and that's two episodes. So watching both tonight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 02, 2012, 01:39:38 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2012, 12:19:07 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.

Is Qarth based on Carthage?  Really looks to be, both stylistically and from what I am reading.  It even sounds like it; Qarth-Hadasht is the origin of Carthage, "New City".

This makes Carthago Nova pretty much the most stupidly named city in world history.
Happens all the time. I think it is pretty instructive of how massive the cultural divide was between Carthage and Rome, though.  You'd really expect there to be at least someone close to Scipio Africanus who spoke Punic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2012, 02:02:10 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2012, 01:39:38 AM
Happens all the time. I think it is pretty instructive of how massive the cultural divide was between Carthage and Rome, though.  You'd really expect there to be at least someone close to Scipio Africanus who spoke Punic.

The most roman thing of all is to slavishly copy the ancestors.
The second most roman thing of all is to make sure that everybody knows that the people who used to live here were killed by the romans.

So, if Scipio Africanus had somebody speaking Punic, upon hearing that Carthage means "New City" he would have gone out of his way to name the city "New New City". But, this is all redundant since the Barcids called it "Carthage", the same name as the home city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 02, 2012, 09:10:08 AM
Spartacus.  I knew where it was heading, I knew how this season would end. 

[spoiler]But still, it was great to see the end of Claudius Glaber.  The blond cutie might still be there by next year, though I've no idea what she will do.  Wasn't expecting the baby stuff though.  Shocking.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on April 02, 2012, 09:14:43 AM
No, my thread is Spartacus!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2012, 09:32:26 AM
knowing a bit about history meant that that was always going to happen. What pisses me off remains the combat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 02, 2012, 10:04:44 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.

I thought you were really into Mideastern looks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
Has it started ?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 29, 2012, 09:59:54 PM


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2Fkarl-davies-236x300.jpg&hash=2c53a695a090f19c9803a7cd34f54fcaf3442b16)
Karl Davies



Hmm candy boy :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 10:30:16 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 02, 2012, 12:12:42 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.


:x

Only if into pasty white chicks.

Wait, there are people who aren't?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2012, 10:30:29 AM
Quote from: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
Has it started ?



G.
Yup!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 10:49:46 AM
Quote from: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 29, 2012, 09:59:54 PM


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2Fkarl-davies-236x300.jpg&hash=2c53a695a090f19c9803a7cd34f54fcaf3442b16)
Karl Davies



Hmm candy boy :perv:

Not really - he looks extremely bland (and fatter) in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:01:20 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 02, 2012, 12:12:42 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
Melisandre is maybe the hottest thing ever.


:x

Only if into pasty white chicks.

:wub: pasty white chicks.  Really if you are going to go white why not go all the way?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Seriously are we allowed to discuss the episode yet?  Everybody seen it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2012, 11:09:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Seriously are we allowed to discuss the episode yet?  Everybody seen it?

24 hours is sufficient for the spoiler limit. I haven't seen it yet, I'm watching with friends.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 11:10:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 10:49:46 AM

Not really - he looks extremely bland (and fatter) in the series.


But the actor is nice.  Speaking of which - do you know the British boy band One Direction?  Now there's a brochette of hard candies!

So I'll need to download the torrent tonight.  how many episodes so far?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 02, 2012, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Seriously are we allowed to discuss the episode yet?  Everybody seen it?
It won't be aired in Denmark until sometime next year. I think they're starting season one this week.

...and they're shocked over the amount of piracy in this country.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 02, 2012, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Seriously are we allowed to discuss the episode yet?  Everybody seen it?

I'm still waiting on the Netflix queues for season 1 to go away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Seriously are we allowed to discuss the episode yet?  Everybody seen it?

That's why there's a [spoiler]spoiler function[/spoiler].  :ph34r:

I just saw it. It's ossum.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
Surprised that Western Europe is getting it so late, seeing how it gets a simultaneous release in Poland.

Anyways, just finished watching the first episode. Indeed, it's pretty ossum. Some thoughts:

- Dragonstone on the intro!  :cool:
- Tyrion rocks
- It sucks to be Cersei, but she gets to bitchsclap Joffrey and Littlefinger
- That's a BIG dog
- In fact it sucks to be a Lannister, unless you are the Imp (see "Tyrion rocks" above)
- While Maester Cressen's story has been cut down a bit, it seems like a sensible editing decision
- I'm now shipping the R&R (Renly & Robb alliance). Too bad it all ends in tears. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 02, 2012, 11:13:00 AM
It won't be aired in Denmark until sometime next year. I think they're starting season one this week.

...and they're shocked over the amount of piracy in this country.

On HBO or another network?

How did Renly manage to get a 100,000 man army over night? 

Also, I thought the Starks had 20,000 facing 30,000 Lannister boys at the end of last season, now all of a sudden Rob says everyone is equal with 100,000 men.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
How did Renly manage to get a 100,000 man army over night? 

The power of the Stormlands (Renly's demesne) and the richest and most populous of the seven kingdoms - the Reach (his boy toy's dad's demesne) - combined.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 02, 2012, 02:31:21 PM
At least he didn't gush about how hot Cher was again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2012, 03:21:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM- While Maester Cressen's story has been cut down a bit, it seems like a sensible editing decision

Yup, it was more than enough to get the point of "Melissandre is a witch!!!!1111" across.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 03:56:38 PM
Some people complained that it did not quite play out the tragedy of Cressen etc. but I think they didn't have time for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 02, 2012, 04:00:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
- I'm now shipping the R&R (Renly & Robb alliance). Too bad it all ends in tears. :(

Question to the jury- Does being gay entitle one to talk like a teenage girl?  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 04:09:06 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2012, 04:00:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
- I'm now shipping the R&R (Renly & Robb alliance). Too bad it all ends in tears. :(

Question to the jury- Does being gay entitle one to talk like a teenage girl?  :P

Yes. :P

It's one of the perks. Like man-purses and glitter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 02, 2012, 04:30:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 03:56:38 PM
Some people complained that it did not quite play out the tragedy of Cressen etc. but I think they didn't have time for that.

Cressen is not even a cuaternary character. He only appears in one episode, a prologue to boot, and most of his tragedy comes from his inner thinking. To really capture that you'd need a fuckton of exposition into Stannis, his background and his personality, and there was no time at all for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 04:45:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:40:06 PM
The power of the Stormlands (Renly's demesne) and the richest and most populous of the seven kingdoms - the Reach (his boy toy's dad's demesne) - combined.

I mean just go with it.  This is not really military fiction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 04:45:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
- I'm now shipping the R&R (Renly & Robb alliance). Too bad it all ends in tears. :(

You know Renly would never tolerate NOrthern independence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2012, 05:44:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 02, 2012, 11:13:00 AM
It won't be aired in Denmark until sometime next year. I think they're starting season one this week.

...and they're shocked over the amount of piracy in this country.

On HBO or another network?

How did Renly manage to get a 100,000 man army over night? 

Also, I thought the Starks had 20,000 facing 30,000 Lannister boys at the end of last season, now all of a sudden Rob says everyone is equal with 100,000 men.
Lannisters had two armies of 30k.

Rob Stark liberated the Riverlands, so that's another 20-30k men for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2012, 06:05:52 PM
Preview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrQsRSNqGLQ&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 02, 2012, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 01, 2012, 09:08:14 PM
I assume every one has seen the series opener by now?

How about the Yuropeans?

I have not!
Where's the link?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 02, 2012, 07:17:09 PM
Now that is what I call a Wolf.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 02, 2012, 07:17:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 04:45:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
- I'm now shipping the R&R (Renly & Robb alliance). Too bad it all ends in tears. :(

You know Renly would never tolerate NOrthern independence.

Highgarden might. The north is big, poor and nothing but trouble. Only including the civilized parts of the kingdom makes it much easier to rule.


Watching it I was surprised at it not starting like the book. Was really expecting it to be faithful with the prologue as the first series was.

The series seems to be under-explaining a lot. Good for me but again I fear for outsiders watching.

The end with the guard taking over the city like that- wow. Just how busy was Robert? Every other house it seems holds one of his bairns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 02, 2012, 07:18:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 04:09:06 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2012, 04:00:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
- I'm now shipping the R&R (Renly & Robb alliance). Too bad it all ends in tears. :(

Question to the jury- Does being gay entitle one to talk like a teenage girl?  :P

Yes. :P

It's one of the perks. Like man-purses and glitter.

I like glitter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 02, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 02, 2012, 07:17:42 PM
The end with the guard taking over the city like that- wow. Just how busy was Robert? Every other house it seems holds one of his bairns.

As I recall that is pretty faithful to the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 02, 2012, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2012, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 02, 2012, 11:08:21 AM
Seriously are we allowed to discuss the episode yet?  Everybody seen it?

I'm still waiting on the Netflix queues for season 1 to go away.

Why do you lie?
Game of thrones is not on Netflix.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 02, 2012, 07:41:56 PM
Not online.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 02, 2012, 08:13:28 PM
Finally, GoT is starting the second season!  :)  After what seems years, just as if the show was being produced at the same pace RR Martin writes the books.   ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 08:17:04 PM
'Power is power' - Quote of the week.  Just watched episode one - was last Sunday the 1st or 2nd episode of the season?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 02, 2012, 08:27:27 PM
Quote from: KRonn on April 02, 2012, 08:13:28 PM
Finally, GoT is starting the second season!  :)  After what seems years, just as if the show was being produced at the same pace RR Martin writes the books.   ;)

:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 02, 2012, 08:49:15 PM
Quote from: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 08:17:04 PM
'Power is power' - Quote of the week.

disagree. didn't sound quite as dumb in the show due to the scene and decent acting, but it is a pretty damn silly quote in text  :lol:

anyway, @episode: i'm no purist by any means, but i do think they probably should have had the prologue scene be at the beginning, and introduced those new characters better--especially melisandre. having talked to people who have only seen the show, her appearance was one of the more confusing aspects of the episode

also, that littlefinger-cersei interaction was sort of laughable and really against his character. as if baelish would openly ruin relations with the most powerful woman in the kingdom over a petty comment re: his past, and in such a blunt and obvious way

otherwise i enjoyed it. thought the last scene was very well done
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2012, 09:06:15 PM
Quote from: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 08:17:04 PM
Just watched episode one - was last Sunday the 1st or 2nd episode of the season?

In the US they showed the first episode yesterday.

LaCroix: I didn't interpret that scene as payback for the putdown, rather as an attempt to make Cersei concede Littlefinger's leverage.  Cersei's response was surprising and cool because she showed she is willing to fuck convention or appearances.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 02, 2012, 09:17:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2012, 09:06:15 PMLaCroix: I didn't interpret that scene as payback for the putdown, rather as an attempt to make Cersei concede Littlefinger's leverage.  Cersei's response was surprising and cool because she showed she is willing to fuck convention or appearances.

the scene was put there to both give littlefinger a role (he's not very prevalent in the second book, iirc) and to sow the seeds for the gestapo assault at the end of the episode. that interaction, and the on-screen murder of robert's bastards, never happened in the books. it was implied, and i do like how they took that implication and showed it on screen, but i felt the way they explained how cersei & co. discovered the location of the bastards was silly

instead of showing this by having littlefinger use the situation to further some goal of his, which is more keeping to his character of being possible the most skilled manipulator on the continent, they had him blow up and directly threaten someone who he never would have directly threatened in such an open way--and proceed to get utterly dominated by cersei like a little bitch
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 02, 2012, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 02, 2012, 08:49:15 PM
Quote from: Grallon on April 02, 2012, 08:17:04 PM
'Power is power' - Quote of the week.

disagree. didn't sound quite as dumb in the show due to the scene and decent acting, but it is a pretty damn silly quote in text  :lol:

anyway, @episode: i'm no purist by any means, but i do think they probably should have had the prologue scene be at the beginning, and introduced those new characters better--especially melisandre. having talked to people who have only seen the show, her appearance was one of the more confusing aspects of the episode

also, that littlefinger-cersei interaction was sort of laughable and really against his character. as if baelish would openly ruin relations with the most powerful woman in the kingdom over a petty comment re: his past, and in such a blunt and obvious way

otherwise i enjoyed it. thought the last scene was very well done

I think she rhiled him up a bit with mentioning his Catlyn relationship. That is his big weak spot which pushes him into irrationality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 02, 2012, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 02, 2012, 09:17:08 PMI think she rhiled him up a bit with mentioning his Catlyn relationship. That is his big weak spot which pushes him into irrationality.

yes, that is what the show was saying, but that would never happened with book-littlefinger. his weakness for cat is one of the many reasons behind some of his plots and schemes, but no where does it suggest he couldn't hold his tongue and know his place when mocked by literally one of the most powerful people in the kingdom
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2012, 09:23:49 PM
Looks like Episode 2 is on the internets, anyone seen it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 02, 2012, 09:26:14 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 02, 2012, 08:27:27 PM
Quote from: KRonn on April 02, 2012, 08:13:28 PM
Finally, GoT is starting the second season!  :)  After what seems years, just as if the show was being produced at the same pace RR Martin writes the books.   ;)

:huh:
9 months is an eternity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 02, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 02, 2012, 09:06:15 PM
she is willing to fuck
yes, that, she is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 02, 2012, 09:31:53 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 02, 2012, 09:17:03 PM
instead of showing this by having littlefinger use the situation to further some goal of his, which is more keeping to his character of being possible the most skilled manipulator on the continent, they had him blow up and directly threaten someone who he never would have directly threatened in such an open way--and proceed to get utterly dominated by cersei like a little bitch
that was possibly put there to explain why he really doesn't care about the Lannisters anymore once he gets to marry Sansa's aunt and becomes lord of Harrenhal and the Eyrie.  He gets all this with Lannister's help, yet he seems to betray them.
It could be hard to understand his motivations, so introducing this scene dumbs down the requirements of understanding that Littlefingers plays for Littlefingers only.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 02, 2012, 09:56:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 02, 2012, 09:31:53 PMthat was possibly put there to explain why he really doesn't care about the Lannisters anymore once he gets to marry Sansa's aunt and becomes lord of Harrenhal and the Eyrie.  He gets all this with Lannister's help, yet he seems to betray them.

i don't see it, especially since (imo) the show has already more than demonstrated that littlefinger cares only about littlefinger.. cats aside
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 01:23:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 02, 2012, 07:17:42 PM
The end with the guard taking over the city like that- wow. Just how busy was Robert? Every other house it seems holds one of his bairns.

Episode 2 gives a satisfying conclusion.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 01:24:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2012, 09:23:49 PM
Looks like Episode 2 is on the internets, anyone seen it?

I did. It's pretty cool. Tyrion-in-King's-Landing scenes really stand out. Especially his little supper with Lord Janos Slynt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 03, 2012, 01:56:56 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2012, 09:23:49 PM
Looks like Episode 2 is on the internets, anyone seen it?

WTF are you talking about?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 03, 2012, 02:10:26 AM
God damn you are right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 02:41:34 AM
Of course I am. It leaked on Dutch HBO Go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 03, 2012, 03:16:25 AM
just finished the second episode

the arya and gendry interactions are really excellent. and the actor they chose for davos is wonderful, stannis too
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 03:23:30 AM
The second episode seemed to me somewhat less awesome than the first one but that could be because my connection on HBO Go was choppy so I had to pause every scene to get it to buffer up.

Did they change the Theon storyline? I thought the sister whom he wanted to fuck upon arrival in the Pyke was Asha - not sure why they changed her to "Yara". Also she was rather ugly but maybe it's just me. Then again, Theon doesn't seem averse to fucking fugly chicks, as long as he does it from behind.

Tyrion - Cersei interactions were excellent - we know both Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage can act (remember the Cersei - Roberrt famous "hate" chat?) so it is a pleasure to watch these two explore their complex relationship.

Tyrion vs. Varys was probably my favourite scene ("the big fish eat the little fish and I keep paddling on") but I saw it in one of the previews before.

Littlefinger was given some "cunt development" scene so we don't forget he is a cunt only because Cersei treats him like a bitch.

Also, still no sight of Renly. I want the famed sex scene already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 03:27:59 AM
Incidentally, Theon's plight reminds me of my Elective monarchy Denmark game in CK2. I made a mistake of sending my son and heir apparent to a German court for tutoring - he came back a German and my Dukes wouldn't want to elect him as the new King anymore.  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 03, 2012, 04:43:24 AM
What is this HBO Go of which you speak? And how does one get it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:19:55 AM
It's an online HBO service - essentially a Video on Demand, but functioning without a need for a decoder or a similar device.

It allows you to have one device of each type (a computer, a tablet and a smartphone) associated with it, on which you can watch the movies. Go to your local hbo website and check it out if it is available where you are. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:22:15 AM
For example, it looks like this for Poland:

http://www.hbo.pl/hbogo
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2012, 05:23:53 AM
Official Spoiler Ettiquette (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlUMXZWwjQk)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:32:46 AM
To be honest, the whole spoiler thing is completely alien to me.

I don't mind spoilers myself, as in most cases I enjoy storytelling much more than the actual plot twists, so even if I know (vaguely) how a book or a film ends, it does not detract me from the enjoyment of it.

Furthermore, if there is a thread dedicated to a discussion of a show or a book, someone who is annoyed by spoilers AND hasn't watched the show/read the book, AND goes into a thread like this is a complete idiot deserving of nothing but scorn and contempt, so I am not going to respect his wishes as it would be beneath me.

The only exception, I guess, would be a situation similar to SOIAF, where you would not spoil tv-show-only viewers with facts from the books that haven't yet been presented on the show - but only if that's the original premise of the thread only.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 03, 2012, 05:36:16 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 03, 2012, 04:43:24 AM
What is this HBO Go of which you speak? And how does one get it?


QuoteCentral Europe

HBO is available in Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Macedonia, Montenegro, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Slovak Republic and Slovenia.

For Austria, their series will now be shown by Sky (formerly Premiere) who have created Sky Atlantic HD channel for that purpose. Sky has an online offering, but seems to cover only movies and sports, not series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 03, 2012, 05:39:53 AM
Yeah, Canal+ is the provider here it seems. However, it's not possible to get that without getting the extra plus plus deluxe package for $200 a month. No thanks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:55:00 AM
Ugh, so much? I have a Canal+ based service and the premium pack (which has 3 HBO channels and whatnot) costs 170 zloty (i.e. app. 45 Euro). Why is Denmark so expensive?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 03, 2012, 05:59:33 AM
Because Poles are poor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 06:23:30 AM
They changed Theon's sister's name to Yara because Asha sounded too much like Osha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 03, 2012, 06:25:07 AM
I pay for my package (150MBit internet, VOIP phone, 100+ channels) 70 EUR. If I opted for the additional channels from Sky it'd be 50 EUR extra if I took the lot (three packages), or 40 (2) or 27 (1).

I hardly ever watch tv these days, so I consider downsizing to just internet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 03, 2012, 06:40:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:55:00 AM
Why is Denmark so expensive?
Because most Danes have money enough and the market is very small. Once in a while when there's actually competition on a certain market we get prices resembling that of the rest of Europe. Right now we get fairly cheap mobile subscriptions.

When we opened up the digital aerial signals we sold the rights to a Swedish company so that they have monopoly. Smart move!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Octavian on April 03, 2012, 06:51:05 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 03, 2012, 06:40:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:55:00 AM
Why is Denmark so expensive?
Because most Danes have money enough and the market is very small. Once in a while when there's actually competition on a certain market we get prices resembling that of the rest of Europe. Right now we get fairly cheap mobile subscriptions.

When we opened up the digital aerial signals we sold the rights to a Swedish company so that they have monopoly. Smart move!

:yes:

Anyway you can always Tamas it!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 03, 2012, 06:53:33 AM
I'm Tamas'ing it via a server in Lund right now. :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 03, 2012, 06:59:20 AM
Actually I'm not, my broadband just borked itself. Somehow I'll manage to blame it on the former government!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2012, 07:31:08 AM
I watch it with my friends on monday evenings. We make it an event. Beer, Pizza, Drinking Games, Discussion, Debate etc. In world of DVRs think it is fair to give people a day to watch it before we dive into talking about the details.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:42:25 AM
And the ratings are good. Seasons 3 + 4 are assured. :)

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118052220

Quote'Thrones' returns big for HBO
Drama hits series-best 3.9 million for first telecast Sunday
By Rick Kissell
Auds were clearly clamoring for HBO's "Game of Thrones," whose second season opened Sunday to a series-best 3.86 million viewers, according to Nielsen estimates. The previous best for a single telecast of the show was for its finale last June, which drew 3.04 million.

Additional airings on Sunday drew 1.48 million at 10 p.m. and 943,000 at 11 p.m. for a total of 6.28 million. Last year's series premiere cumed to 4.22 million for its three airings.

"Game of Thrones" also did a series-best national adults 18-49 rating of 2.0 for its return, well above the 0.9 for its series premiere and the 1.4 for its finale late last spring.

The premiere-telecast audience for "Thrones" on Sunday was considerably larger than that of other high-profile scripted cable shows on the night, including AMC's "Mad Men" (2.94 million) and "The Killing" (1.80 million for its second-season premiere) as well as Showtime's "Shameless" (1.45 million for its second-season finale).

"Thrones," a medieval fantasy series based on George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire," is shaping up to be HBO's second most popular current series, behind only "True Blood," which regularly topped 5 million regular-timeslot viewers in each of its last two seasons. Another current HBO drama, "Boardwalk Empire," wrapped its second season by drawing 3 million viewers in its initial telecast last December.

HBO moved quickly to renew "Game of Thrones" for a second season a year ago, pulling the trigger just two days after the show's premiere. Its debut early last April averaged 2.22 million viewers in its regular 9 p.m. timeslot and its two same-night repeats averaged a combined 2 million more.

The ascendance of "Game of Thrones" has to be comforting for HBO, whose horse racing drama "Luck" ended up wrapping after one season. For its nine-episode run, "Luck" averaged just 575,000 for its initial Sunday telecasts.

Next up for the pay cabler are the premieres of comedies "Girls" on April 15 and "Veep" one week later. They will air in the 10 o'clock hour, following "Thrones."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:48:33 AM
Watching episode 2 now.

Ghost is fucking enormous!

Maybe it was the angle with which Grey Wind stood in regards to Rob, but he didn't look quite that massive to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2012, 09:57:23 AM
Direwolves are about 6ft long and weigh about 200 pounds, basically the size of a great dane. Here is a great dane, seen with Tyrion Lannister.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc9%2FWikipedia_Great_Dane_Raro.jpg&hash=525ad329e53530e0d52e60014bb539038c8609a5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 10:05:42 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2012, 09:57:23 AM
Direwolves are about 6ft long and weigh about 200 pounds, basically the size of a great dane. Here is a great dane, seen with Tyrion Lannister.

Direwolves weren't that big in real life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_wolf#Body_mass_and_dimensions

Though of course I have no problem with them being bigger in GoT. It's just surprising/awesome to see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 10:25:14 AM
HBO GO just announced that in Eastern Europe each episode of season 2 will be released a week early. Take that you Western European/American scum.  :nelson:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 03, 2012, 10:55:26 AM
TheTamasBay.org will do just fine. :yeah:

Ep2 was good, the Theon part worked just as I remember from the books and Tyrion is still ruling.

Also, I'm joining the Melisandre = HAWT crowd. (Asha and Gilly also fine.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 03, 2012, 11:19:29 AM
Oddly enough, no mention of Shireen when they are talking about Stannis's children. She is kinda important in book 5...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 03, 2012, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2012, 11:19:29 AM
Oddly enough, no mention of Shireen when they are talking about Stannis's children. She is kinda important in book 5...

Pretty sure I saw her in the background of the bonfire scene, along with Stannis' wife.  I don't recall any mention of "Stannis' children," though...Stannis only has Shireen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 03, 2012, 11:35:05 AM
Yeah, but Melisandre told Stannis that "your wife has only given you stillborns" (granted, she specified "no sons"). No mention whatsoever that Shireen exists.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 03, 2012, 11:36:48 AM
Also, Jaqen looked kinda plain and normal, no freaky hair like in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 03, 2012, 12:03:18 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2012, 11:36:48 AM
Also, Jaqen looked kinda plain and normal, no freaky hair like in the books.

i prefer this, actually, especially over those ridiculous fan-made pictures of him over the internet. i don't think the bright red and white would carry over very well on screen
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 03, 2012, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 03, 2012, 10:55:26 AM
Also, I'm joining the Melisandre = HAWT crowd. (Asha and Gilly also fine.)


Me too. I may just convert to the fire god.

Gilly is that ditzy girl from Skins. Seems appropriate I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 01:33:20 PM
Melly seemed a bit weak to me.  I always pictured her as literally a force of nature.  Her voice seemed weak and not at all overpowering. Bad sound editing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 03, 2012, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 03:23:30 AM
Did they change the Theon storyline? I thought the sister whom he wanted to fuck upon arrival in the Pyke was Asha - not sure why they changed her to "Yara". Also she was rather ugly but maybe it's just me. Then again, Theon doesn't seem averse to fucking fugly chicks, as long as he does it from behind.
Had you read the thread, you would know.
Asha and Osha were too similar sounding.  To avoid confusion, they change the name.  Not the last time it will happen either.

It's the same sister.  And altough I have not seen the episode in question, you are the last person on this forum on whom we should rely to evaluate the beauty of a feminine character.  Stick with Renly.

Quote
Also, still no sight of Renly. I want the famed sex scene already.
There's no sex scene between Renly and his gay lover, it is only implied they have sex.  I hope they keep true to the spirit of the book on this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 02:43:11 PM
I cant wait until Renly dies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 03, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 03, 2012, 10:55:26 AM

Also, I'm joining the Melisandre = HAWT crowd. (Asha and Gilly also fine.)
Right, I was going to ask how they look, but I realize you damn Yuros have seen the 2nd episode.  Dammit.  One more week for the beautys...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 03, 2012, 02:49:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 02:43:11 PM
I cant wait until Renly dies.
I wanted to post something clever, but I can't top this trolling of Martinus, so I stay quiet :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2012, 05:59:50 PM
There is a sex scene between Renly and Loras in season 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 06:12:27 PM
HBO has sent in the Goldcloaks, the Euro plan is no more.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/04/hbo-addresses-early-episode-release-rumors/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 03, 2012, 07:32:05 PM
Just saw the 2nd episode. Purists of the books are going to dehydrate from all the frothing if changes continue at this rate during the season.

And...[spoiler]Other[/spoiler] sighting...  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Another thing that got me about the first episode was the reality of the land beyond the wall did not quite match the hype.  If one old man with 60 daughter-wives can hack it, it can't really be that tough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 03, 2012, 08:17:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Another thing that got me about the first episode was the reality of the land beyond the wall did not quite match the hype.  If one old man with 60 daughter-wives can hack it, it can't really be that tough.
He has help, which was more than hinted at.

How do Northerners feed themselves?  I keep thinking they have hearty rye and barley, but the lakes are goddamn frozen over for years at a time.  Do they drink evergreen sap?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Another thing that got me about the first episode was the reality of the land beyond the wall did not quite match the hype.  If one old man with 60 daughter-wives can hack it, it can't really be that tough.

Craster was the kind of hard muther fucker that nobody wants to fuck with. [spoiler]Furthermore Craster has been buying safety from the wights and others by sacrificing his sons to them. The superstitious of wildlings might have thought that Craster had the ability to sick of the others on them if they fucked with craster.[/spoiler] But, basically Craster's survivability is basically the same as the northernmost of the the northern small folk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on April 03, 2012, 08:52:21 PM
Melisandre naked. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.backupot.com%2FSmileys%2Fclassic%2Feek2yum.gif&hash=7c1409040f771259c89437985b3d42d0a4d7c1a5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 08:53:43 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 03, 2012, 08:17:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Another thing that got me about the first episode was the reality of the land beyond the wall did not quite match the hype.  If one old man with 60 daughter-wives can hack it, it can't really be that tough.
He has help, which was more than hinted at.

How do Northerners feed themselves?  I keep thinking they have hearty rye and barley, but the lakes are goddamn frozen over for years at a time.  Do they drink evergreen sap?

I think I asked that question last year.  There is snow on the ground in the summer.  Lots of snow.  God only knows what happens in winter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 03, 2012, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 03, 2012, 08:52:21 PM
Melisandre naked. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.backupot.com%2FSmileys%2Fclassic%2Feek2yum.gif&hash=7c1409040f771259c89437985b3d42d0a4d7c1a5)
Yeah.  See her other movies.  She's physically impossible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 03, 2012, 08:57:47 PM
I mean, seriously, she's a goddamn thermodynamic miracles.  And she's in her mid-30s.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 03, 2012, 08:58:06 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 03, 2012, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 03, 2012, 08:52:21 PM
Melisandre naked. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.backupot.com%2FSmileys%2Fclassic%2Feek2yum.gif&hash=7c1409040f771259c89437985b3d42d0a4d7c1a5)
Yeah.  See her other movies.  She's physically impossible.

She just looks weird.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:37:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Another thing that got me about the first episode was the reality of the land beyond the wall did not quite match the hype.  If one old man with 60 daughter-wives can hack it, it can't really be that tough.

Craster was the kind of hard muther fucker that nobody wants to fuck with. [spoiler]Furthermore Craster has been buying safety from the wights and others by sacrificing his sons to them.
Yeah I had more of an old Conan (Shwarzzenegger) look in my mind when I read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 08:53:43 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 03, 2012, 08:17:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Another thing that got me about the first episode was the reality of the land beyond the wall did not quite match the hype.  If one old man with 60 daughter-wives can hack it, it can't really be that tough.
He has help, which was more than hinted at.

How do Northerners feed themselves?  I keep thinking they have hearty rye and barley, but the lakes are goddamn frozen over for years at a time.  Do they drink evergreen sap?

I think I asked that question last year.  There is snow on the ground in the summer.  Lots of snow.  God only knows what happens in winter.
Read the books. One late summer/early autumn snow storm doesn't mean much aside as an indicator of a hard winter to come.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:52:24 PM
Woah...

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sermountaingoat.co.uk%2Fmap%2Fversions%2Fspeculative_map.jpg&hash=4ba7940659239e169ad795c9763c93e6e8712d78)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 03, 2012, 10:03:26 PM
Meh, the full size of the one below is better.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_SniTwfm5BwE%2FTVKnSg7fEGI%2FAAAAAAAADZg%2FKAL7hNc7ANU%2Fs1600%2FWesteros%252Bby%252BOther%252Bin%252BLaw.jpg&hash=02f4d6dbcb51675900e253da7fc897f2bfad18d5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 11:24:00 PM
Every time I open A Feast for Crows I find my self thinking "I don't want to read random character 1109's depressing sob story and inevitable betrayal/murder" and closing it.

Can I safely skip the prologue and get to the meat of the story or is there something important in it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 03, 2012, 11:41:48 PM
The prologue for Feast is relevant to the grand scheme of the story, and its referenced again in a later chapter(maybe the epilogue). That chapter won't be as significant to you if you haven't read it. Just read it. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 03, 2012, 11:51:43 PM
You should skip any chapter titled "Brienne".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 01:53:54 AM
The second season is very underwhelming so far.

The scene with the goldcloaks coming for Gendry sucked. I don't get why they changed the story from the book and killed the bloodrider dude, for 2 minutes of air time  :huh:

Also, big scheming genius Littlefinger is kind of a dummy, and Stannis full of honor is fucking Melisandre, which flies against everything we ever read about him in 5 books. This dude was eating his shoes back in Storm's End rather than give in, all for honor, now some redhead flashes her tits at him and he throws his principles out the window?

Ugh. I think I've seen enough of Game of Thrones...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2012, 01:55:56 AM
Zoupa ragequits Game of Thrones! :o
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 04, 2012, 01:58:26 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 01:53:54 AM
The second season is very underwhelming so far.

The scene with the goldcloaks coming for Gendry sucked. I don't get why they changed the story from the book and killed the bloodrider dude, for 2 minutes of air time  :huh:

Also, big scheming genius Littlefinger is kind of a dummy, and Stannis full of honor is fucking Melisandre, which flies against everything we ever read about him in 5 books. This dude was eating his shoes back in Storm's End rather than give in, all for honor, now some redhead flashes her tits at him and he throws his principles out the window?

Ugh. I think I've seen enough of Game of Thrones...
Uh...he does fuck her in the books.

Also, it seems he doesn't even have a daughter in the tv show so he's gonna need a bastard to legitimize if he wants succession to be orderly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 02:00:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2012, 01:55:56 AM
Zoupa ragequits Game of Thrones! :o

He's French. He wouldn't be happy unless they opened with a 15 minutes completely dialogue-less scene showing just Stannis's boots and the sound of his footsteps on the floor, followed by him sighing at the sea while he existentially flips off the ashes from his cigarette
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:58:06 AM
It's hardly a ragequit... I wasn't all wowed about the 1st season anyways. I think there's better tv out there.

And no Tim, he doesn't have sex with her in the books.

Martinus, stop trying to rip off CdM's schtick.

That is all for now. Back to your fanboy fapping everyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 04, 2012, 03:20:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:58:06 AM

And no Tim, he doesn't have sex with her in the books.


He totally does. Isn't that where the vagina shadow assassins come from?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 03:27:48 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 04, 2012, 03:20:20 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:58:06 AM

And no Tim, he doesn't have sex with her in the books.


He totally does. Isn't that where the vagina shadow assassins come from?

It is never revealed in the books, but it could be something GRRM intended (like the Loras/Renly affair that is never explicitly admitted in the books, but has been confirmed by the Word of Gay) or at least thought is consistent with his writing (he mentioned at some occassions that he does not know answers to all mysteries in his books but is willing to be more explicit for the show as long as he is fine with the explanation).

In short, Zoupa is a moron.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 04, 2012, 03:52:15 AM
I agree with Zoupa.  Episode 02 has me less than pleased.  I can understand taking some shortcuts and editing a bit, but to make such a big change in an important character?  Dreadful.  There had best be a damn good explanation. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2012, 03:56:08 AM
Like the Renly-Loras ghey fucking scene, it was implied in the books that Stannis fucked Melisandre not only as part of rumor but it is also suggested by Melisandre to Davos when the shadow baby is born inside the walls of Storms End.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 04, 2012, 03:58:13 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 04, 2012, 03:56:08 AM
Like the Renly-Loras ghey fucking scene, it was implied in the books that Stannis fucked Melisandre not only as part of rumor but it is also suggested by Melisandre to Davos when the shadow baby is born inside the walls of Storms End.
Really?  Damn.  I guess I was blinded by my support.  I feel like Davos. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 04, 2012, 05:36:26 AM
It is even mentioned that the shadows look a bit like Stannis.

And I'm glad that they seem to brush away the Florents.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 05:39:46 AM
It seems that if the Baratheon brothers have one thing in common, it's their willingness to fuck their way to the top.

Robert fucks Cersei to keep the Kingdom going.
Stannis fucks Melisandre for her magic.
Renly fucks Loras and Margaery for the Tyrell support.

I am not saying they don't necessarily enjoy it, but that this seems like a common theme. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2012, 05:43:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 05:39:46 AM
It seems that if the Baratheon brothers have one thing in common, it's their willingness to fuck their way to the top.

Robert fucks Cersei to keep the Kingdom going.
Stannis fucks Melisandre for her magic.
Renly fucks Loras and Margaery for the Tyrell support.

I am not saying they don't necessarily enjoy it, but that this seems like a common theme. :P

we are still not sure of the bolded bit... well, at least not officially...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 04, 2012, 05:46:07 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:52:24 PM
Woah...

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwwmountaingoat.co.uk%2Fmap%2Fversions%2Fspeculative_map.jpg&hash=9190e08a1ead80ea7498c2b1d9fb1bfd179b2f68)

Wow. Nerdgasm
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 01:53:54 AM
Stannis full of honor is fucking Melisandre, which flies against everything we ever read about him in 5 books.

Um he fucks her in the books.  That is how the shadow monster thing was born.  I mean there was no scene where it happened but it was about as subtle as a ton of bricks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 08:34:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 05:39:46 AM
It seems that if the Baratheon brothers have one thing in common, it's their willingness to fuck their way to the top.

Let others wage wars, but you, happy Baratheon, fuck!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 04, 2012, 08:51:12 AM
What if you guys cool it about discussing episodes that haven't even been shown on TV yet. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 08:53:45 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 04, 2012, 08:51:12 AM
What if you guys cool it about discussing episodes that haven't even been shown on TV yet. <_<

Or at least use the spoiler function.  I mean I know most of us know what happens thanks to the books but come on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2012, 08:55:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 04, 2012, 08:51:12 AM
What if you guys cool it about discussing episodes that haven't even been shown on TV yet. <_<

+1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 08:56:56 AM
Don't read a thread if you whine about spoilers - easy enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 08:56:56 AM
Don't read a thread if you whine about spoilers - easy enough.
Buh bye till next monday.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 09:00:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 08:56:56 AM
Don't read a thread if you whine about spoilers - easy enough.

Well if you guys are going to be watching ahead that means most of us will not be participating in this thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 04, 2012, 09:06:42 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:58:06 AM
Martinus, stop trying to rip off CdM's schtick.

The contemptuous nihilistic French smoker stereotype has been around much longer than CDM. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 04, 2012, 09:31:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 09:00:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 08:56:56 AM
Don't read a thread if you whine about spoilers - easy enough.

Well if you guys are going to be watching ahead that means most of us will not be participating in this thread.
HBO changed it's mind about the early Euro screenings from what I read.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 04, 2012, 09:58:08 AM
There is whining about spoilers when shows have already been aired to the general populace, and then there is a rather legitimate point that common fucking courtesy would suggest that you not talk about a show that you know most people have not seen yet.

And don't give me this "then don't open the thread" bullshit - I WANT to talk about the show, just not the ones that have yet to actually air in general. So no, simply not opening the thread is not an option. You are basically demanding that the thread only be for those who have watched ahead, and everyone else should not be included, all so you can avoid even showing a modicum of simple courtesy to others.

Christ, if you really want to talk ahead, then create a specific thread for that, label it appropriately, and the four of you can go chat in there. The rest of us are using THIS thread to talk about Game of Thrones Season 2, and the assumption is that everyone in here has seen the latest regularly scheduled episode shown every Sunday night around 9pm EST.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 04, 2012, 10:00:28 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 04, 2012, 09:58:08 AM
There is whining about spoilers when shows have already been aired to the general populace, and then there is a rather legitimate point that common fucking courtesy would suggest that you not talk about a show that you know most people have not seen yet.

And don't give me this "then don't open the thread" bullshit - I WANT to talk about the show, just not the ones that have yet to actually air in general. So no, simply not opening the thread is not an option. You are basically demanding that the thread only be for those who have watched ahead, and everyone else should not be included, all so you can avoid even showing a modicum of simple courtesy to others.

Christ, if you really want to talk ahead, then create a specific thread for that, label it appropriately, and the four of you can go chat in there. The rest of us are using THIS thread to talk about Game of Thrones Season 2, and the assumption is that everyone in here has seen the latest regularly scheduled episode shown every Sunday night around 9pm EST.

:yes:

It isn't unreasonable to not want to see spoilers about episodes that have yet to air.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
It's okay Berkie. Unless Neil/moldy or seedy overturn it he won't be posting here till next Monday.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 04, 2012, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 08:56:56 AM
Don't read a thread if you whine about spoilers - easy enough.
Buh bye till next monday.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjFUD2.gif&hash=8044433f32ddbc7d223109ad09e2d71d26b20d8d)

:)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 04, 2012, 10:08:41 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
It's okay Berkie. Unless Neil/moldy or seedy overturn it he won't be posting here till next Monday.
I blame the next clearing the air thread on you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:11:33 AM
I think last one was my fault too
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 04, 2012, 10:24:42 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:11:33 AM
I think last one was my fault too

So quick on the draw.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:27:05 AM
:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 04, 2012, 10:28:52 AM
Much like the Renly-Loras romance, I am really surprised that there are people out there that missed the Stannis-is-banging-Melisandre angle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 10:31:33 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 04, 2012, 10:28:52 AM
Much like the Renly-Loras romance, I am really surprised that there are people out there that missed the Stannis-is-banging-Melisandre angle.

My impression was that Stannis has no desire for sex really he just does it for the magical mojo.  It is like there was a constant supply of Baratheon sexuality and all the gayness went to one and the heteroness went to Robert and there was nothing left for Stannis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 04, 2012, 10:42:14 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:27:05 AM
:huh:

Quick to ban him and ensure overheated drama threads? :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 04, 2012, 10:45:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 04, 2012, 09:58:08 AM
There is whining about spoilers when shows have already been aired to the general populace,

The general populace doesn't have HBO.  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:46:28 AM
Quick to ban?

Yeah that is what everybody says about me. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:46:28 AM
Quick to ban?

:ph34r:

Um...what I meant to say in the NHL thread was screw the Canadians we need a NHL team in Seattle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 04, 2012, 10:51:43 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:46:28 AM
Quick to ban?

Yeah that is what everybody says about me. :lol:
amongst other things :P

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 11:00:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:46:28 AM
Quick to ban?

:ph34r:

Um...what I meant to say in the NHL thread was screw the Canadians we need a NHL team in Seattle.
Too late. Your snarky dig at UW football has put you on notice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 11:05:58 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 11:00:17 AM
Too late. Your snarky dig at UW football has put you on notice.

:ph34r:

Um Don James > Darrel Royal
Steve Emtman > Tommy Nobis

How is that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 04, 2012, 11:30:41 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 11:00:17 AM
Your snarky dig at UW football has put you on notice.

The Badgers have actually been pretty good lately.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 04, 2012, 11:37:41 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 08:56:56 AM
Don't read a thread if you whine about spoilers - easy enough.
Buh bye till next monday.

:wub:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 04, 2012, 12:22:38 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 04, 2012, 10:28:52 AM
Much like the Renly-Loras romance, I am really surprised that there are people out there that missed the Stannis-is-banging-Melisandre angle.
So I got half of those. :lol:  Anyway, I tried to remain spoiler free and just said I was pissed, with elaboration done after the episode aired.  P.S.  If anyone is desperate for the episode now, let me know... :tamas:  :pirate
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
Jesus Christ people, yes it's hinted at by Mel in the books. On the other hand, she's a freaking wizard or whatever, so who cares how she gets to birth that shadow thingie.

I feel it's lazy or cheap to write dozens of chapters and unanimous viewpoints telling us how Stannis always does what is Lawful Neutral, then turn around and have him breaking his vows because the chick says "ill give you a son!".

The first few books are subtle, nuanced, intricate. The show is sort of lame and blunt. Good for you if you enjoy it :shrug:

In short,  Martinass is a tard. But we all knew that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
The first few books are subtle, nuanced, intricate. The show is sort of lame and blunt. Good for you if you enjoy it :shrug:

Well I haven't seen it yet so I cannot comment.  And he broke no vows that I am aware of.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 04, 2012, 03:37:20 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2012, 09:37:06 PM
I had more of an old Conan (Shwarzzenegger) look in my mind when I read the books.
really?  He only seemed like a regular old men to me, not the kind to stand and fight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 04, 2012, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:58:06 AM
And no Tim, he doesn't have sex with her in the books.
Yes, he does, but it is not spelled out. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 04, 2012, 03:45:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2012, 05:39:46 AM
Renly fucks Loras and Margaery for the Tyrell support.

He didn't fuck Margaery, the marriage was not consumed.  That is the official version at least.  In the books they say he passed out too drunk, but someone also says Loras was the one carrying the naked bride to bed, as per their custom.

Ah, and Renly to Stannis about the girl:
Renly: -She is a maiden
Stannis: -And likely to remain so all her life if married to you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 03:46:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
The first few books are subtle, nuanced, intricate. The show is sort of lame and blunt. Good for you if you enjoy it :shrug:

Well I haven't seen it yet so I cannot comment.  And he broke no vows that I am aware of.

He breaks his wedding vows. I could have sorta understood if Mel told him "we need to have sex RIGHT NOW so I can birth a monster that will wreck your brother's chances". But no, he has sex with her expressedly for a son, expressedly breaking his vows, and all for what would be a bastard with zero claim as his heir.

It was lame and lazy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 03:47:23 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 03:46:18 PM
He breaks his wedding vows.

That he made to Gods he just burned.

I was not aware Mel lied to him when she did it I figured when he had sex with her it was specifically to make the shadow monster.  Yeah not to crazy about that.  But again, I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 04, 2012, 03:48:37 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
I feel it's lazy or cheap to write dozens of chapters and unanimous viewpoints telling us how Stannis always does what is Lawful Neutral, then turn around and have him breaking his vows because the chick says "ill give you a son!".

He's not doing it for pleasure, he's doing it for the future of the Kingdom, so he's not immoral ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2012, 04:34:38 PM
Do the books explore at all the theme of a gay claimant to the throne's dynastic ambitions?  Dude's is presumably not going to hand off the throne to his heir.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2012, 04:41:24 PM
You can never please everyone when you make a film adaptation of a novel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 04, 2012, 04:42:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2012, 04:41:24 PM
You can never please everyone when you make a film adaptation of a novel.

One would have expected that they would have aimed for the larger audience and not Marti.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 04, 2012, 04:56:12 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2012, 04:34:38 PM
Do the books explore at all the theme of a gay claimant to the throne's dynastic ambitions?  Dude's is presumably not going to hand off the throne to his heir.

I think Renly figures on getting around to producing an heir at some point, but no rush.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2012, 04:59:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 04, 2012, 04:56:12 PM
I think Renly figures on getting around to producing an heir at some point, but no rush.

Will he: close his eyes and think of Westeros?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 04, 2012, 05:26:35 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 03:46:18 PM
and all for what would be a bastard with zero claim as his heir.

Two bastards are legitimized in the series, or near enough to matter in one case.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 04, 2012, 06:08:50 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 03:46:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
The first few books are subtle, nuanced, intricate. The show is sort of lame and blunt. Good for you if you enjoy it :shrug:

Well I haven't seen it yet so I cannot comment.  And he broke no vows that I am aware of.

He breaks his wedding vows. I could have sorta understood if Mel told him "we need to have sex RIGHT NOW so I can birth a monster that will wreck your brother's chances". But no, he has sex with her expressedly for a son, expressedly breaking his vows, and all for what would be a bastard with zero claim as his heir.

It was lame and lazy.
He's King, he can legitimize it anytime he wants.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
Why are you people arguing with Zoupa, he has shown in past he has shitty taste in movies.

Plus he's french refugee living in Canuckleland
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 04, 2012, 08:12:55 PM
 :glare:

And to think, I used to save your ass in PvP.

Et tu, Bluto?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 04, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
Tu méritais celle la. Subtility doesn't make good tv.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 04, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
It's okay Berkie. Unless Neil/moldy or seedy overturn it he won't be posting here till next Monday.

Who is Moldy?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 04, 2012, 10:41:19 PM
That map was mindblowing.

A couple of questions, though.

1- The Land of the long summer. That this implies that Essos have the same long winters and long summers as Westeros?
2- Slavers Bay and Valyria. Doesn't this area looks suspiciously like Greece and the Egean sea?
3- Sothoryos. Does this means South in high valyrian? Why are all cities destroyed in there?
4- Volantis = Massilia?
5- How do the Dothraki gets to Pentos? Croosing the Rhoyne (the Rhone?) doesn't look like the kind of land to support a khalassar.
6- New Ghis = Rhodes?
7- Summer Islands, I expected them to be way bigger, like Africa or something.
8- Ebben, too small?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:42:44 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 04, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
It's okay Berkie. Unless Neil/moldy or seedy overturn it he won't be posting here till next Monday.

Who is Moldy?

I could tell you,but then i'd have to kill ya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 04, 2012, 10:53:35 PM
So you have nothing to lose by telling him then...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2012, 11:46:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2012, 04:34:38 PM
Do the books explore at all the theme of a gay claimant to the throne's dynastic ambitions?  Dude's is presumably not going to hand off the throne to his heir.

Yeah he is.  He brags to Stannis he is going to get his wife preggo very soon.  And naturally Stannis then mocks him.  I mean he is gay not sterile.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 05, 2012, 01:37:03 AM
I almost agree with Zoupa, but the thing is, they haven't done much subtitly (sp?) in the series, it would look weird if they started with Stannis and the redhead.

Speaking of a naked hottie on the war table, the 2nd episode had a bit of excess needless fucking, didn't it? Clearly their favourite place to be is Littlefinger's brothel, but I hope they won't keep wasting time there in future eps. It's not like they have much time to waste if they want to cover everything in 10 episodes
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 05, 2012, 02:08:09 AM
I'm so glad they introduced that whore character. We can follow her journeys from Winterfell to King's Landing and beyond.

It's fascinating stuff, a much needed viewpoint. Who needs the Blackfish when you have a traveling ho?

:wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 05, 2012, 02:12:55 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 05, 2012, 02:08:09 AM
I'm so glad they introduced that whore character. We can follow her journeys from Winterfell to King's Landing and beyond.

It's fascinating stuff, a much needed viewpoint. Who needs the Blackfish when you have a traveling ho?

:wacko:

I'm starting to think that Ros -> Chataya/Alayahya, like Alton -> Cleos Frey and Osha -> Jojen and Meera Reed
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
I just sort of ignore the sex stuff on HBO shows.  Like in Rome it is just totally pointless.  But it is a necessary evil.

I mean come on not everything is going to work for you in a TV show.  Somethings work, somethings are awesome, somethings are meh, and somethings are groaningly bad.  And with so many elements in this particular show you have to expect a few groaners.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 05, 2012, 03:35:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
I just sort of ignore the sex stuff on HBO shows.
so you ignore 3/4 of HBO shows?  :P

Seriously, though, there is just as much sex&nudity, heck, I'd say more, in G.R.R. books than in the tv show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 05, 2012, 05:10:45 PM
Nudity in text form is pretty bland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 05, 2012, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 05, 2012, 05:10:45 PM
Nudity in text form is pretty bland.

Might be okay to say for the series in question...but in general? No way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 05, 2012, 05:42:57 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 05, 2012, 05:10:45 PM
Nudity in text form is pretty bland.

(.) (.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 05, 2012, 06:00:50 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 05, 2012, 05:42:57 PM
(.) (.)

Looks more like a Muppet's eyes than a pair of breasts IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 05, 2012, 06:05:48 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 05, 2012, 02:12:55 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 05, 2012, 02:08:09 AM
I'm so glad they introduced that whore character. We can follow her journeys from Winterfell to King's Landing and beyond.

It's fascinating stuff, a much needed viewpoint. Who needs the Blackfish when you have a traveling ho?

:wacko:

I'm starting to think that Ros -> Chataya/Alayahya, like Alton -> Cleos Frey and Osha -> Jojen and Meera Reed

What? No Jojen? No Meera?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 05, 2012, 06:10:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
I just sort of ignore the sex stuff on HBO shows.  Like in Rome it is just totally pointless.  But it is a necessary evil.


Why do we have to put up with all these stupid sex scenes?
The only thing they do, is that kids cannot watch this show.
They are wasting time best used telling the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 05, 2012, 06:13:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 05, 2012, 03:35:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
I just sort of ignore the sex stuff on HBO shows.
so you ignore 3/4 of HBO shows?  :P

Seriously, though, there is just as much sex&nudity, heck, I'd say more, in G.R.R. books than in the tv show.


Yes, but is not the same reading than watching.
I read the One Thousand and One Nights (Arabian Nights) when I was like 9.
It doesn't get more erotic than that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 05, 2012, 06:59:10 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 05, 2012, 06:13:22 PM
Yes, but is not the same reading than watching.
I read the One Thousand and One Nights (Arabian Nights) when I was like 9.
It doesn't get more erotic than that.

It is the same to me. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 05, 2012, 08:15:08 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 05, 2012, 06:10:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
I just sort of ignore the sex stuff on HBO shows.  Like in Rome it is just totally pointless.  But it is a necessary evil.


Why do we have to put up with all these stupid sex scenes?
The only thing they do, is that kids cannot watch this show.
They are wasting time best used telling the story.

Brings in the viewers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 05, 2012, 08:28:07 PM
As long as they get most of the non-fucking right, I don't really mind the fucking or the sexposition that much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 10:14:49 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 05, 2012, 06:10:36 PM
Why do we have to put up with all these stupid sex scenes?

Because it is a requirement for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 10:16:33 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 05, 2012, 03:35:11 PM
so you ignore 3/4 of HBO shows?  :P

Seriously, though, there is just as much sex&nudity, heck, I'd say more, in G.R.R. books than in the tv show.


Not really.  I can only think of a few per book and they are mostly for the creepiness factor.  In the show it is like once an episode at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 06, 2012, 12:14:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 05, 2012, 10:16:33 PM
Not really.  I can only think of a few per book and they are mostly for the creepiness factor.  In the show it is like once an episode at least.
Tyrion keeps fucking Shea every chapters in the books.  Cersei is fucking the Kettlebacks, Lancel and Moonboy for all I know.
In the first book, the sex scene between Cersei and Jamie is quite explicit.
In the second book, Sansa is stripped naked in public by her husband.
There are descriptions of the whorehouse and its activities when Tyrion enters it to take the secret passage to meet his prostitute girlfriend.
Greyjoy is fucking the captain's daughter on his way to his home.  Once he gets on the horse, he's grabbin his sisters tits.

In the 3rd or 4th book, there is talk of a dinner at some place conquered by the Greyjoys where the ladies of the house serve naked and some entertain the guests.  There is a lot of talk about rape in the books.

So far, I think only Brienne and Arya haven't been in a sex scene.  Brandon got a hardon seeing Osha coming out naked of some pool/lake.

Littlefinger keeps grabbing Sansa's breasts, even though she's a minor.

As I said, lots of sex.  Some of it was removed from tv, some added elsewhere (the prostitute in Winterfell).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 06, 2012, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 06, 2012, 12:14:01 AM
Some of it was removed from tv, some added elsewhere (the prostitute in Winterfell).

Not really added.  In book one he goes to see the prostitutes there often iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 06, 2012, 01:21:56 PM
I guess I tend to forget the sex scenes I read :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 07, 2012, 11:28:05 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 06, 2012, 01:21:56 PM
I guess I tend to forget the sex scenes I read :D

There were no actual sex scenes that I recall.  But I seem to recall that he introduced the imp to his favourite whore and I guess from that the character in the show was born.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 07, 2012, 11:31:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 06, 2012, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 06, 2012, 12:14:01 AM
Some of it was removed from tv, some added elsewhere (the prostitute in Winterfell).

Not really added.  In book one he goes to see the prostitutes there often iirc.

I'm expecting Ros to replace Chataya and Alayahya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 07, 2012, 09:50:14 PM
Yes, but now the kids cannot watch the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 07, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 07, 2012, 09:50:14 PM
Yes, but now the kids cannot watch the show.
:huh:  You have kids?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 07, 2012, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 07, 2012, 09:50:14 PM
Yes, but now the kids cannot watch the show.

It's HBO, when did the kids ever get to watch the show?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 07, 2012, 11:32:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 07, 2012, 09:50:14 PM
Yes, but now the kids cannot watch the show.
:huh:  You have kids?

He will.

Siege, the books are not children's books.  They are entertainment meant for adults.  The series reflects that.  Don't take that as me agreeing with the need for all the sex scenes, but this is not meant for kids.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 08, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2012, 11:32:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 07, 2012, 09:50:14 PM
Yes, but now the kids cannot watch the show.
:huh:  You have kids?

He will.

Siege, the books are not children's books.  They are entertainment meant for adults.  The series reflects that.  Don't take that as me agreeing with the need for all the sex scenes, but this is not meant for kids.

Yes, but the story is great and teach kids about real life and bad people.
Besides, without GoT, the only thing left is LOTR and its fake green blob stealing Pelennor Fields from the sacrify of the real people of ME.
I'm not over the green blob yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 08, 2012, 10:32:02 AM
I could see giving GoT to a mature 13-14 year old, but giving it to an actual kid strikes me as near-pathological.  There's graphic incest in the first 30 pages.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 08, 2012, 11:44:34 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 08, 2012, 10:20:11 AM


Yes, but the story is great and teach kids about real life and bad people.
Besides, without GoT, the only thing left is LOTR and its fake green blob stealing Pelennor Fields from the sacrify of the real people of ME.
I'm not over the green blob yet.

I don't think there a great deal to teach a kid about real life.  At least not anything that isn't in other novels.  There are also more then two sets of fantasy novels.  Harry Potter, the Wizard of Oz, and the Jungle Book are all fantasy books geared more toward children and have been made into films.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

Video games get rated MA all the time for violence, at least in the US.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 08, 2012, 01:05:31 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.
Why don't you have a problem showing violence to kids?  I agree that your problem is pretty lame, but I don't think you quite realize what your problem actually is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 08, 2012, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

Scandinavian sensors work the other way round with violence, even comic violence, being tabu while sex is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2012, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

Video games get rated MA all the time for violence, at least in the US.

I think it's a matter of degree, though.

Chainsaw carnage should be the equivalent of, say, BDSM child rape. One guy punching another should be the equivalent of, say, Janet Jackson showing a boob.

But they are not treated the same way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 08, 2012, 10:08:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2012, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

Video games get rated MA all the time for violence, at least in the US.

I think it's a matter of degree, though.

Chainsaw carnage should be the equivalent of, say, BDSM child rape. One guy punching another should be the equivalent of, say, Janet Jackson showing a boob.

But they are not treated the same way.

Perhaps because your comparisons are flawed?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 08, 2012, 10:09:59 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 08, 2012, 10:32:02 AM
I could see giving GoT to a mature 13-14 year old, but giving it to an actual kid strikes me as near-pathological.  There's graphic incest in the first 30 pages.

I just started reading the series again and I had forgotten that Catelyn's second chapter has her laying in bed thinking about Ned's seed in her. :x
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 08, 2012, 11:17:27 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 08, 2012, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

Scandinavian sensors work the other way round with violence, even comic violence, being tabu while sex is not.
it's the same everywhere but in America.  This is why all the world is filled with moral degenerates fucking everyone and their dog while America is filled with moral degenerates killing everyone and their dog.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 08, 2012, 11:24:11 PM
The Wicked Witch of the West was a true visionary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 09, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

"Modern society"?
This is the way it have ALWAYS been.
Violence is done and received in a community enviroment, with your family, kin and friends fighting and dying with you.
While sex is and have been a PRIVATE enterprise, done in the privacy of your home/shag/room/cave/hole in the ground.

Violence is public, sex is private.
This should be a concept easy to understand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 09, 2012, 01:08:06 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 09, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

"Modern society"?
This is the way it have ALWAYS been.
Violence is done and received in a community enviroment, with your family, kin and friends fighting and dying with you.
While sex is and have been a PRIVATE enterprise, done in the privacy of your home/shag/room/cave/hole in the ground.

Violence is public, sex is private.
This should be a concept easy to understand.

Thanks for the lesson in anthropology.  Unfortunately sexual activity isn't always private and violence isn't always public.  Murder is typically done in private and there are many occasions of ritual sex in history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 09, 2012, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2012, 01:08:06 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 09, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

"Modern society"?
This is the way it have ALWAYS been.
Violence is done and received in a community enviroment, with your family, kin and friends fighting and dying with you.
While sex is and have been a PRIVATE enterprise, done in the privacy of your home/shag/room/cave/hole in the ground.

Violence is public, sex is private.
This should be a concept easy to understand.

Thanks for the lesson in anthropology.  Unfortunately sexual activity isn't always private and violence isn't always public.  Murder is typically done in private and there are many occasions of ritual sex in history.

Both of which are nowhere as common as public violence in war and private sex in marriage.
You fail!

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 09, 2012, 01:21:11 AM
Most countries have more murders then they do deaths by combat.  This one included.  I bet if you compared the number of deaths by criminal homicide  to those killed in combat over the last three decades you will find that many more were killed in criminal acts. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 09, 2012, 01:27:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2012, 01:21:11 AM
Most countries have more murders then they do deaths by combat.  This one included.  I bet if you compared the number of deaths by criminal homicide  to those killed in combat over the last three decades you will find that many more were killed in criminal acts.

Probably depends how you classify various killings. Are cops who get killed in shoot-outs with Mexican drug cartels victims of homicide? What about Tutsi killed by soldiers in Rwanda?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 09, 2012, 02:35:32 AM
They all got Tutsi rolled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 09, 2012, 02:36:04 AM
Quote


Video games get rated MA all the time for violence, at least in the US.
And for sex they aren't allowed past the censors at all.

QuoteWhy don't you have a problem showing violence to kids?  I agree that your problem is pretty lame, but I don't think you quite realize what your problem actually is.
This is doubtless some pick at wording but....for the life of me I can't see what. Huh?
You've got things backwards. Its society which has no problem with showing violence to kids whilst it hates showing them anything sexual.

Quote from: Siege on April 09, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2012, 11:28:56 AM
its amusing/pretty lame the way modern society is so aghast at kids getting a hint of anything sexual but we've no problem with violence being shown to them.

"Modern society"?
This is the way it have ALWAYS been.
Violence is done and received in a community enviroment, with your family, kin and friends fighting and dying with you.
While sex is and have been a PRIVATE enterprise, done in the privacy of your home/shag/room/cave/hole in the ground.

Violence is public, sex is private.
This should be a concept easy to understand.

Not at all.
Traditionally people lived in one room houses....and had a shit tonne of kids. Not really any way to do that without the kids being exposed to what would be completely innapropriate to modern eyes.
Mix that with the way keeping animals was common place and kids have traditionally had a lot of exposure to sex.

Violence...a lot of exposure to that too what with slaughtering animals but it has always been regarded as a bad thing generally.  Man on man violence was not for children's eyes. Or anyone's officially what with it generally being illegal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2012, 02:43:18 AM
There were plenty of public executions and gladiatorial games in the past that children would see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2012, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 09, 2012, 02:36:04 AM
Violence...a lot of exposure to that too what with slaughtering animals but it has always been regarded as a bad thing generally.  Man on man violence was not for children's eyes. Or anyone's officially what with it generally being illegal.

In England they used to take kids to public executions to teach them morals.  So it is not your country you are talking about here...what are you thinking of?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2012, 10:08:27 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpbfcomics.com%2Farchive_b%2FPBF249-Memorabilia.jpg&hash=a2ca769f4e54c9fc4a586c7e486280c2077d8695)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 08, 2012, 11:17:27 PM
it's the same everywhere but in America.  This is why all the world is filled with moral degenerates fucking everyone and their dog while America is filled with moral degenerates killing everyone and their dog.
Not true.  In America, you get in trouble of you kill someone's dog.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 09, 2012, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 09, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
"Modern society"?
This is the way it have ALWAYS been.
No, not really, not in all culture.  I think our current model of "virtue" derives from the Victorian era, the height of the British Empire.  I doubt ancient cultures everywhere were as prude as we are.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 09, 2012, 02:17:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
Not true.  In America, you get in trouble of you kill someone's dog.
can't you claim self defense in Florida?  Or is it only when the dog is black?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 09, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 08, 2012, 11:17:27 PM
it's the same everywhere but in America.  This is why all the world is filled with moral degenerates fucking everyone and their dog while America is filled with moral degenerates killing everyone and their dog.
Not true.  In America, you get in trouble of you kill someone's dog.

Not if you're a cop.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 09, 2012, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 09, 2012, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 09, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
"Modern society"?
This is the way it have ALWAYS been.
No, not really, not in all culture.  I think our current model of "virtue" derives from the Victorian era, the height of the British Empire.  I doubt ancient cultures everywhere were as prude as we are.

I have heard this theory before.
I have yet to see any proof of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 09, 2012, 03:49:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
Not true.  In America, you get in trouble of you kill someone's dog.
Hell you get in trouble if you kill your own dog.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 09, 2012, 04:32:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 08, 2012, 11:17:27 PM
it's the same everywhere but in America.  This is why all the world is filled with moral degenerates fucking everyone and their dog while America is filled with moral degenerates killing everyone and their dog.
Not true.  In America, you get in trouble of you kill someone's dog.
In Denmark that's apparently legal if you warn the owner a year in advance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 09, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
So... can we ask a dance of dragons question here?

[spoiler]Is there any historical medieval  counterpart to RAmsay Bolton? Who would tolerate such a crazy monster?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 09, 2012, 05:10:27 PM
Vlad Tepes? A lot of nobles in the Balkans, Ukraine or Russia weren't exactly saints either. Remember that the North represents the least civilized part of Westeros/Europe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 09, 2012, 05:13:34 PM
I didn't think there was historical counterparts for most of the characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 09, 2012, 05:13:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2012, 05:10:27 PM
Vlad Tepes?

Also gay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2012, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 09, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
So... can we ask a dance of dragons question here?

[spoiler]Is there any historical medieval  counterpart to RAmsay Bolton? Who would tolerate such a crazy monster?[/spoiler]
Ivan the Terrible?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 10, 2012, 12:42:00 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 09, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
So... can we ask a dance of dragons question here?

[spoiler]Is there any historical medieval  counterpart to RAmsay Bolton? Who would tolerate such a crazy monster?[/spoiler]

Roose Bolton is far more interesting.
The dude is willing to let his children kill each other so the most fit inherit his domain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 10, 2012, 03:09:37 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 12:42:00 AMRoose Bolton is far more interesting.
The dude is willing to let his children kill each other so the most fit inherit his domain.

Roose seemed to me the most pragmatic person in the entire universe. he recognized the fact his bastard murdered his legitimate son, yet legitimized the surviving son because of the very fact that it was his only son. he regretted Ramsay's murder of Domeric, but because Ramsay was his blood and only surviving son, he allowed him to remain alive

i hope they keep the two separate characters in the HBO series, and don't merge them into one
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2012, 03:15:09 AM
I hate the character of Bolton. At first he seemed rather cool. A northerner named after a shitty northern town who lived somewhere called the Dread Fort yet was a good guy. Was a kind of nifty subversion of the "so cliched it isn't even done any more" fantasy stuff of calling bad guy's castles "Fort Doom" and the like.
But it turned out he was bad afterall. Ah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 10, 2012, 03:15:54 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 09, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
So... can we ask a dance of dragons question here?

[spoiler]Is there any historical medieval  counterpart to RAmsay Bolton? Who would tolerate such a crazy monster?[/spoiler]

are you asking if there is an historical example of a person who because of his position of power is allowed to commit acts of utter horrific sadism? think on this, if you would
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 10, 2012, 03:20:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2012, 03:15:09 AM
I hate the character of Bolton. At first he seemed rather cool. A northerner named after a shitty northern town who lived somewhere called the Dread Fort yet was a good guy. Was a kind of nifty subversion of the "so cliched it isn't even done any more" fantasy stuff of calling bad guy's castles "Fort Doom" and the like.
But it turned out he was bad afterall. Ah.
do you hate him because of personal reasons? i rather like him. he is interesting, and provides a reasonable exploration of the once vassal who is willing to do whatever it takes to take his and his family's position to the next level. only Roose was in the position to step up to the Lannisters and maintain control over the north--even if it eventually leads to despair for his house
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 10, 2012, 05:42:55 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2012, 03:15:09 AM
I hate the character of Bolton. At first he seemed rather cool. A northerner named after a shitty northern town who lived somewhere called the Dread Fort yet was a good guy. Was a kind of nifty subversion of the "so cliched it isn't even done any more" fantasy stuff of calling bad guy's castles "Fort Doom" and the like.
But it turned out he was bad afterall. Ah.

Good guy? He was creepy as hell since minute one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2012, 06:31:40 AM
Creepy, certainly.
But on the good side at least.
His creepyness being another factor in it being lame he was the one who turned out bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 10, 2012, 06:53:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2012, 06:31:40 AM
Creepy, certainly.
But on the good side at least.
His creepyness being another factor in it being lame he was the one who turned out bad.

Which good side? The Starks? If these books have proved something is that every side is a mixed bag of goodies and baddies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2012, 07:16:47 AM
I knew that'd be the reply...
But yeah. The Starks. They're quite unquestionably "the good guys"- a big point of the books being that being good and honorable gets you screwed over by those who play to win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 10, 2012, 07:45:22 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 10, 2012, 03:15:54 AM
are you asking if there is an historical example of a person who because of his position of power is allowed to commit acts of utter horrific sadism? think on this, if you would

Sure. I can think of plenty of awful people. But I can't think of that many people who were evil towards their own subjects for the LOLZ YAY.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2012, 08:57:36 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 10, 2012, 07:45:22 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 10, 2012, 03:15:54 AM
are you asking if there is an historical example of a person who because of his position of power is allowed to commit acts of utter horrific sadism? think on this, if you would

Sure. I can think of plenty of awful people. But I can't think of that many people who were evil towards their own subjects for the LOLZ YAY.

There aren't many kings (and rulers of nations) like this, but I would be surprised if this was that rare among local tyrants (the equivalent of counts and barons in CK2) who had absolute authority over their subjects. In fact, I can't think of a single reason why a petty lord could not be a psychopath.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 10, 2012, 09:03:33 AM
Ramsay is a villain that is very easy to dislike and will be very satisfying for the reader to read of his downfall. It is the laziest type of writing and a far cry of the early 'villains' of the series - Cersei, Jaime, or even Joffrey. With them you could at least sympathize with them at times, or explain their behavior. Ramsay is just wicked to the bone, which probably means he'll be around for at least another book or so. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 10, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
I got the impression that the Lanisters were intended as to totally evil and without any redeeming value early on (with the exception of Tyrion), but Martin changed his mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 10, 2012, 09:34:09 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 09, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
So... can we ask a dance of dragons question here?

[spoiler]Is there any historical medieval  counterpart to RAmsay Bolton? Who would tolerate such a crazy monster?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I thought he was inspired by the 'Bastard of Orkney' Robert Stewart, the bastard son of James V.  Martin takes alot of inspiration from Scottish History, like the Red Wedding for example (being inspired by the 'Black Dinner' when the Douglas Clan was massacred).  Robert Stewart had a pschopathic bastard son of his own named James of Graemsay with sorta looks like Ramsay as well.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 10, 2012, 10:39:49 AM
Stop with the spoiler blacklighter. Its getting me a headache.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 10, 2012, 11:02:53 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 10:39:49 AM
Stop with the spoiler blacklighter. Its getting me a headache.

[spoiler]never![/spoiler]

Childish, yes. but still fun :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 10, 2012, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 10:39:49 AM
Stop with the spoiler blacklighter. Its getting me a headache.

[spoiler]Get some Tylenol then... or some Coors light. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 10, 2012, 11:09:07 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 10, 2012, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 10:39:49 AM
Stop with the spoiler blacklighter. Its getting me a headache.

Get some Tylenol then... or some Coors light. [/spoiler]

I can't drink beer for a week. We are in Pesach, haven't you heard?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 10, 2012, 11:17:41 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 11:09:07 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 10, 2012, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 10:39:49 AM
Stop with the spoiler blacklighter. Its getting me a headache.

Get some Tylenol then... or some Coors light. [/spoiler]

I can't drink beer for a week. We are in Pesach, haven't you heard?

Your religion is evil, no bacon and now no beer? At times like this I can't help but think that if Antiochus IV had only killed all the Maccabees the world would have been a better place.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 10, 2012, 11:19:02 AM
[spoiler]I hope Siege doesn't read this.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2012, 11:26:09 AM
[spoiler]I think we should write like this all the time now to annoy him.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2012, 12:26:25 PM
It's been renewed for the third season. We'll get to see the red wedding!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 10, 2012, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2012, 12:26:25 PM
[spoiler]It's been renewed for the third season. We'll get to see the red wedding![/spoiler]

:ultra: :ultra: :ultra: :ultra:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 10, 2012, 12:47:25 PM
Fuck you all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 10, 2012, 03:40:35 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 10, 2012, 12:47:25 PM
Fuck you all.

I thought you couldn't do that in Pesach, either.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 11, 2012, 02:52:14 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2012, 12:26:25 PM
It's been renewed for the third season. We'll get to see the red wedding!
Wasn't that the second book?
My memory sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 11, 2012, 06:04:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2012, 08:57:36 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 10, 2012, 07:45:22 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 10, 2012, 03:15:54 AM
are you asking if there is an historical example of a person who because of his position of power is allowed to commit acts of utter horrific sadism? think on this, if you would

Sure. I can think of plenty of awful people. But I can't think of that many people who were evil towards their own subjects for the LOLZ YAY.

There aren't many kings (and rulers of nations) like this, but I would be surprised if this was that rare among local tyrants (the equivalent of counts and barons in CK2) who had absolute authority over their subjects. In fact, I can't think of a single reason why a petty lord could not be a psychopath.
would be a bad investment policy. No subjects, no income.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 11, 2012, 07:30:47 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 11, 2012, 06:04:47 AM
would be a bad investment policy. No subjects, no income.

So what? A lot of people do not act in their long term best interest. If heirs to vast capitalist fortunes can squander them away, I don't see why heirs to feudal holdings can't.

Incidentally, another example of a sadist psychopath baron I just thought of is Gilles de Rais.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 11, 2012, 07:48:31 AM
The only example I can think of is Gilles. The Bastard of Orkney was a capricious ruler who levied high taxes. Ramsay fucking hunts women he rapes and then turns them into belts, and everyone's reaction is "Oh better not piss him off!"

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 11, 2012, 07:56:29 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 11, 2012, 07:48:31 AM
The only example I can think of is Gilles. The Bastard of Orkney was a capricious ruler who levied high taxes. Ramsay fucking hunts women he rapes and then turns them into belts, and everyone's reaction is "Oh better not piss him off!"

Obviously he is a bit extreme :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 11, 2012, 08:05:16 AM
Ramsay is only in power amidst an anarchic situation though. How long has he had his position? A year at most maybe? A few months it feels more like. I'd think even a real world monster could get a good few months of carnage before his lord took notice.

Being a dick and killing peasants is bad business- true. But noble titles were inherited. To become the first of your family to be a noble you had to be rather good at whatever it is you do but after that all you have to do is be born the eldest son to noble parents. Not exactly selecting for the best business sense there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 11, 2012, 09:06:20 AM
Already confirmed that the 3rd season will only cover the 1st half of Storm of Swords.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 11, 2012, 09:07:13 AM
In other news, here's the theme song, as performed by the actors that play the Stark kids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REasBBiJm00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REasBBiJm00)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 11, 2012, 09:13:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 11, 2012, 08:05:16 AM
Ramsay is only in power amidst an anarchic situation though.

Yeah he only has his position because of his father and the chaotic position.  And even then people are hardly inspired by his leadership.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 11, 2012, 09:33:58 AM
He is the only ruler and person of power in the middle of a severly war-torn arid wasteland, of course he gets to do what he wishes.

Besides, he will soon be swept aside by Zombie Jon
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
Elizabeth Bathory?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 11, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 11, 2012, 09:06:20 AM
Already confirmed that the 3rd season will only cover the 1st half of Storm of Swords.

Ah, so that's how they plan to deal with Martin being so slow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:46:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 11, 2012, 09:06:20 AM
Already confirmed that the 3rd season will only cover the 1st half of Storm of Swords.

Ah, so that's how they plan to deal with Martin being so slow.

Just wait until they split A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 11, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
Elizabeth Bathory?

Not to mention Vlad Dracula.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on April 11, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2012, 07:30:47 AM

Incidentally, another example of a sadist psychopath baron I just thought of is Gilles de Rais.

Did someone mention..Bluebeard the great?
  (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPFymo.jpg&hash=3ac1cef2f3168bca8f4fb01c222d6966a601db3e)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 11, 2012, 01:19:11 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 11, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
Elizabeth Bathory?

Not to mention Vlad Dracula.

Isn't Vlad actully fairly well respected in Romania?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 11, 2012, 01:41:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2012, 07:30:47 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 11, 2012, 06:04:47 AM
would be a bad investment policy. No subjects, no income.

So what? A lot of people do not act in their long term best interest. If heirs to vast capitalist fortunes can squander them away, I don't see why heirs to feudal holdings can't.

Incidentally, another example of a sadist psychopath baron I just thought of is Gilles de Rais.
fortunes generally don't wield farming- or other implements that are -when you think about it- horrible weapons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 11, 2012, 01:43:59 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 11, 2012, 01:19:11 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 11, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
Elizabeth Bathory?

Not to mention Vlad Dracula.

Isn't Vlad actully fairly well respected in Romania?
slaughtering 10.000s of Turks usually has that result.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 11, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 11, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
Elizabeth Bathory?

Not to mention Vlad Dracula.

Tepes killed his enemies for politics, not for sport or dermatology.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 11, 2012, 05:25:18 PM
Caligula, Bathory, Saltykova, de Rais, de los Ríos y Lísperguer...given the circumstances it's not totally impossible that you would hear stories of someone like Bolton.  I think it is debatable to what extent they would actually be accurate though. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 11, 2012, 07:39:41 PM
Sounds good!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/game-of-thrones-third-season_n_1416386.html
QuoteWhen HBO's renewal of "Game of Thrones" for a third season was announced Tuesday, one question sprang to many fans' minds: How many episodes will there be?

A spokesperson for the network would not confirm that, as was the case with the first two seasons, the third season will have 10 episodes. But executive producer D.B. Weiss, whom I interviewed after the renewal announcement, said that he and fellow "Game of Thrones" executive producer David Benioff were proceeding on the assumption that Season 3 will consist of 10 episodes.

"I would say that, going forward, 10-episode seasons are really all that are possible, given our 12-month [production] cycle," Weiss said. "For this show specifically, it's really all we can do to do 10 of them in a year. I would say not to expect more than 10 a season any time in the near future ... We had always planned on a 10-episode season [for the show's third year]."

Some fans and media observers had hoped that the show, currently in its second season (Sundays at 9 p.m. ET on HBO), would get a two-season renewal, and I asked Weiss about that as well.

"I'm not aware of [HBO] having done that in the past -- doing two at a time," Weiss replied. "Generally, it seems to be a season-by-season thing."

The question was partly prompted by the theory that the show would need two seasons to deal with "A Storm of Swords," the third book in Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" novel series. But fans of the shows (and books) should not presume that certain seasons will deal with certain books, Weiss said. He said the plan that he and Benioff have involves taking on sections of the overall saga that make sense in 10-episode installments.

"We've always said that we see the show as an adaptation of George's series, not this book or that book," Weiss explained. "It's definitely true that 'A Storm of Swords' is too big to even come close to fitting in one season. We've done some shuffling around of things -- as an example, there were some things from Book 2 that ended up in Season 1, and there are probably going to be some things in Book 2 that didn't make it into Season 2 or maybe won't show up later. Book 3 is definitely too much for a 10-episode season, so we're taking the long view of the series of the whole, and trying to do as much justice as possible to George's overall epic story and be as true to the spirit as we can, while keeping it an exciting and viable and vivid as a television show that stands on its own two legs."

As I said in my conversation with Weiss, it sounds as though the way to look at upcoming season (hopefully seasons) of the show are as portions of the overall saga, not sections of particular books.

"Yeah," Weiss said. "A season of television needs to feel like a season of television. We have so many storylines to juggle, and they all need to ideally have a sense of a beginning, middle and end over the course of a season. Each character needs to feel like they're traveling a specific road in the course of a season, and coming out as a different person than they went in. It's never going to be about taking a book and ripping it in half -- 'At page 673, this is the place where [the season] ends.' It comes down to case-by-case [decisions] with each story and how best to serve each character's story going forward."

And yes, Martin himself will be writing a third-season episode. The fan site Westeros has the details on that front.

Much more from my interview with D.B. Weiss will be posted here on Monday, in addition to my review of the third episode of the season.

Check out HuffPost TV's recent interview with "Game of Thrones" actor Kit Harington (Jon Snow) and check back here later in the week for an interview with Richard Madden (Robb Stark). For my reviews of the first two episodes of "Game of Thrones" Season 2, look here and here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 11, 2012, 11:44:51 PM
So, now that episode 2 is out and people have had time to digest it, what are the thoughts?  I'm less than thrilled with the writers throwing in more changes and edits in one episode than the entirety of season 1.  I know they want to streamline things to some level, but at the same time I feel they're cutting it down too much to make it "approachable".  With a televised format, you have audio and visual cues with characters and plots to work with, unlike the literary format where everything is confined to words.  If the old adage that a picture is worth a thousand words, it would seem to behoove the writers to stick to the storyline of the book.  It would also damn the slow writing Martin, but that's another issue.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 12, 2012, 02:50:42 AM
Having never read the books, i'm quite content.

:)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 12, 2012, 03:08:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2012, 07:16:47 AM
I knew that'd be the reply...
But yeah. The Starks. They're quite unquestionably "the good guys"- a big point of the books being that being good and honorable gets you screwed over by those who play to win.

grrm's point throughout the point of view characters is that perspective matters most. we see the starks as the good guys because that is the view we are given. the first book painted jaime as an utter stereotypical villain in the first book, but the later books--that showed his point of view--introduced a new side to the character. we are even given hints, here and there, of how others view ned stark: a cold man, wholly unlikeable

Quote from: FaeelinSure. I can think of plenty of awful people. But I can't think of that many people who were evil towards their own subjects for the LOLZ YAY.

ramsay is not a lord, but someone roose bolton has granted an extraordinary amount of power to. we do not know what will happen to ramsay should roose perish. do they follow ramsay, or do they follow roose? ramsay's friend, really a man in roose's pocket, implies who really is in power

Quote from: Benedict ArnoldSo, now that episode 2 is out and people have had time to digest it, what are the thoughts?  I'm less than thrilled with the writers throwing in more changes and edits in one episode than the entirety of season 1.  I know they want to streamline things to some level, but at the same time I feel they're cutting it down too much to make it "approachable".  With a televised format, you have audio and visual cues with characters and plots to work with, unlike the literary format where everything is confined to words.  If the old adage that a picture is worth a thousand words, it would seem to behoove the writers to stick to the storyline of the book.  It would also damn the slow writing Martin, but that's another issue.

even in this thread i voiced some discontentment with how the show is portraying certain characters from the series. however, it is true that the game of thrones HBO series is not the same as the a song of ice and fire book series. they should be viewed separately, as the creators themselves have said. in that sense, i suppose we do not know the personalities or futures of any of the characters unless they are hinted at on screen
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2012, 03:16:27 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 11, 2012, 01:19:11 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 11, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
Elizabeth Bathory?

Not to mention Vlad Dracula.

Isn't Vlad actully fairly well respected in Romania?

They are very short on historical figures of note, being a nation of mountain goatherders and bandits. So they take what they get. If it is a sadistic turncloak robber baron who is known worldwide, they go ahead and be proud of him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 05:22:57 AM
You know I can't think of any really famous Romanians.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 12, 2012, 06:00:48 AM
There aren't very many*. Though apparently, Edward G. Robinson and Johnny Weismuller are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanians)

*Famous Romanians that is. There's a crap ton of random strings of letters on this list.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 12, 2012, 06:07:34 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2012, 06:00:48 AM
There aren't very many*. Though apparently, Edward G. Robinson and Johnny Weismuller are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanians)

*Famous Romanians that is. There's a crap ton of random strings of letters on this list.

Nadia Comenici? You missed her?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 06:44:23 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2012, 06:00:48 AM
There aren't very many*. Though apparently, Edward G. Robinson and Johnny Weismuller are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanians)

*Famous Romanians that is. There's a crap ton of random strings of letters on this list.

I didn't know either was born in Hungary.  Of course, one was Jewish and the other German...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 12, 2012, 07:44:59 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 12, 2012, 06:07:34 AM
Nadia Comenici? You missed her?

I neither read the whole list, nor listed every name I recognized.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 12, 2012, 09:19:16 AM
Tamas is bringing his Romania hate into our pure GoT thread. :o

Next he'll be posting ugly youtube videos of what Hungary will look like in 2020 backed by Magyar techno music.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 11, 2012, 11:44:51 PM
So, now that episode 2 is out and people have had time to digest it, what are the thoughts?  I'm less than thrilled with the writers throwing in more changes and edits in one episode than the entirety of season 1.  I know they want to streamline things to some level, but at the same time I feel they're cutting it down too much to make it "approachable".  With a televised format, you have audio and visual cues with characters and plots to work with, unlike the literary format where everything is confined to words.  If the old adage that a picture is worth a thousand words, it would seem to behoove the writers to stick to the storyline of the book.  It would also damn the slow writing Martin, but that's another issue.

I'm ok with it so far.  I don't think the character's portrayal has changed that much.  Well, they have cut on the number of characters and combined some, like Bronn.  Does this bother me?  Not really.  It's not like they have an infinite budget and can afford to have an actor for 2-3 episodes just to kill him by the end of the season. 

Some things are better in books than in live action, having a gazillion characters can be ok in a book, not in a tv series/movie.  Having a narrator in a book can be ok, in a live action it's annoying.  In a book, you can precisely describe the feelings of a character, in live action you're left with the actor and how best he can display the emotion.  So far, I think they're doing very good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 12, 2012, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
  Having a narrator in a book can be ok, in a live action it's annoying. 

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic2.fjcdn.com%2Fthumbnails%2Fcomments%2FMorgan%2B_2d5b4342aadfaf686727d44c7c38af1a.jpg&hash=67cdd5e7af28dc76c3390ce179d2812f2e4bd7b6)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 12, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
I don't like Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks simply because it is not in his character to be the leader of a bunch of policeman. What is more, a good chunk of Tyrions disgust with the former commander was with his willingness to engage in infanticide for pay - so why replace him with someone probably even MORE willing to do so?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 12, 2012, 12:02:53 PM
I agree Berk.  The other reason I didnt like it, similar to what you have already said, is that in the books Tyrion is very aware that Bronn is loyal to his gold not to him.  Why would Tyrion put Bronn in a position which would lessen Bronn's need for Tyrion's gold?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 12, 2012, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 12, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
I don't like Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks simply because it is not in his character to be the leader of a bunch of policeman. What is more, a good chunk of Tyrions disgust with the former commander was with his willingness to engage in infanticide for pay - so why replace him with someone probably even MORE willing to do so?

Presumably Bronn will take incorporate the character of Jacelyn Bywater as well as himself. Both characters are rewarded at the end of the battle of the blackwater where bywater disappears from the narrative and Bronn is bought away from Tyrion by those who hate competent Lannisters and have Cersei's ear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 12:06:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 12, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
I don't like Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks simply because it is not in his character to be the leader of a bunch of policeman. What is more, a good chunk of Tyrions disgust with the former commander was with his willingness to engage in infanticide for pay - so why replace him with someone probably even MORE willing to do so?
The former Gold Cloak leader doesn't do it for pay, he does it without question, out of obediance for the Queen.  He's the Queen's man, Bronn is not.

However, while it may make sense for Bronn to become the guard's leader, it doesn't for Tyrion to name him there, I agree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 12, 2012, 12:10:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 12:06:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 12, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
I don't like Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks simply because it is not in his character to be the leader of a bunch of policeman. What is more, a good chunk of Tyrions disgust with the former commander was with his willingness to engage in infanticide for pay - so why replace him with someone probably even MORE willing to do so?
The former Gold Cloak leader doesn't do it for pay, he does it without question, out of obediance for the Queen.  He's the Queen's man, Bronn is not.

However, while it may make sense for Bronn to become the guard's leader, it doesn't for Tyrion to name him there, I agree.

Well, that saves D&D the time and effort to explain how Tyrion takes over the gold cloaks and siezes true power in KL. Now they just point out that Bronn was Tyrion's man. Bronn basically seems to be set up to stand in for all of Tyrion's machinations over many chapters to take power from Cersei; all of which makes the destruction of that power after Tyrion's injury at the Blackwater all the more frustrating for Tyrion and emasculating.


Edit: Bywater was rewarded before the Blackwater and died in the battle, I remembered that bit wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 12, 2012, 12:10:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 12:06:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 12, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
I don't like Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks simply because it is not in his character to be the leader of a bunch of policeman. What is more, a good chunk of Tyrions disgust with the former commander was with his willingness to engage in infanticide for pay - so why replace him with someone probably even MORE willing to do so?
The former Gold Cloak leader doesn't do it for pay, he does it without question, out of obediance for the Queen.  He's the Queen's man, Bronn is not.

However, while it may make sense for Bronn to become the guard's leader, it doesn't for Tyrion to name him there, I agree.

Well, that saves D&D the time and effort to explain how Tyrion takes over the gold cloaks and siezes true power in KL. Now they just point out that Bronn was Tyrion's man. Bronn basically seems to be set up to stand in for all of Tyrion's machinations over many chapters to take power from Cersei; all of which makes the destruction of that power after Tyrion's injury at the Blackwater all the more frustrating for Tyrion and emasculating.

See, in the end, it all works out.

Doing it the book way, I'm not sure it can be done in 10 episodes while covering all the other stories.  IIRC, Winterfell falls during the 2nd book?  And there's the battle of the Blackwater wich could take at least half of an episode.

They have to take shortcuts in some place.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 16, 2012, 11:06:54 AM
So, episode 3. I like Yoren's backstory, makes him more of a unique character and helps give context to Arya's "prayers" later.

Also, Renly cockblocked. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 16, 2012, 01:00:19 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2012, 11:06:54 AM
So, episode 3. I like Yoren's backstory, makes him more of a unique character and helps give context to Arya's "prayers" later.

Also, Renly cockblocked. :lol:

Yup, Joren's part was great. And Margaery is kinky. :perv:

And finally a manhood was threattened to be cut and fed to goats. Even if there were no goats around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 16, 2012, 01:11:44 PM
From the role they are giving Margaery I suspect they are going to roll the Queen of Thorns character into her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on April 16, 2012, 03:02:16 PM
I'd certainly roll into her. *rimshot*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2012, 03:21:56 PM
"Do you want my brother to come in and help?"

Best line of the episode.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 16, 2012, 03:25:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2012, 03:21:56 PM
"Do you want my brother to come in and help?"

Best line of the episode.  :lol:

I prefered Tyrion's admonishment to the Mountain's Clansman to "make do" about the lack of goats.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2012, 03:43:28 PM
Btw, if you can stomach a gay pop culture site (no porn, I promise), this guy does one of the funniest recaps of Game of Thrones out there:

http://www.afterelton.com/tv/recaps/game-of-thrones-203
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 16, 2012, 03:53:18 PM
I really liked her in Henry VIII, she had the best wife role. Good to see her back and nicely boob-baring again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 16, 2012, 08:02:10 PM
We are coming up to one of the truly dark portions of the series.  I will be interested to see how dark the producers decide to go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2012, 03:21:56 PM
"Do you want my brother to come in and help?"

Best line of the episode.  :lol:

I like how skillful Margery appears. I'm reading the books again and maybe I'll unpack something I forgot/never discovered but I don't remember that. Of course, one really can't expect less from Anne Boleyn.

Also, love the appearance of Brienne. :wub:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
I like how skillful Margery appears. I'm reading the books again and maybe I'll unpack something I forgot/never discovered but I don't remember that. Of course, one really can't expect less from Anne Boleyn.

No, they're definitely changing Margaery's character to a small degree.  We're basically getting book 4's Margaery ahead of time.  She wasn't nearly as fleshed-out in book 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 08:52:26 PM
Last night's episode was definitely the best of the season thus far and gives me high hopes for the rest.  Next week is more Stannis.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2012, 09:32:21 PM
Theon is also still the same bore but I guess I liked that they tried to redeem him slightly by the letter to Rob that he then burns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2012, 09:33:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
I like how skillful Margery appears. I'm reading the books again and maybe I'll unpack something I forgot/never discovered but I don't remember that. Of course, one really can't expect less from Anne Boleyn.

No, they're definitely changing Margaery's character to a small degree.  We're basically getting book 4's Margaery ahead of time.  She wasn't nearly as fleshed-out in book 2.

Ah cool. Yeah, I didn't remember finding her particularly interesting in book 2 but then Renly wasn't such an over homosexual either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2012, 08:02:10 PM
We are coming up to one of the truly dark portions of the series.  I will be interested to see how dark the producers decide to go.

Sure thing, though I think they did alright with the killing of that boy.

edit: changed Sue to Sure. :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 10:05:05 PM
Agreed.  I watch GoT each week with a small group and the non-readers in the crowd were very surprised that they were so overt about that death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 16, 2012, 10:56:33 PM
Gendry. :weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2012, 11:01:21 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 16, 2012, 10:56:33 PM
Gendry. :weep:

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:35:09 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
I like how skillful Margery appears. I'm reading the books again and maybe I'll unpack something I forgot/never discovered but I don't remember that. Of course, one really can't expect less from Anne Boleyn.

No, they're definitely changing Margaery's character to a small degree.  We're basically getting book 4's Margaery ahead of time.  She wasn't nearly as fleshed-out in book 2.

I like that a lot (they should do a Renly/Loras/Margaery spin-off) but I sure hope this is not done because they want to cut Olenna from the show and replace her plots with Margaery's. The Queen of Thorns is one of my favorite characters in the books, and having an old scheming crone would be a hoot on the show too, imo.

I mean, unlike a lot of other pretty bland characters they have removed, Olenna is awesome. She calls her guards "Left" and "Right", has a lot of snarky lines about Mace Tyrell, and then there is the whole "Bear" song that must make it into the show. Yeah, after some thought, I can't imagine them cutting her out - it's unthinkable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 17, 2012, 03:29:50 AM
Where'd you hear this about cutting her?
That would suck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 03:31:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2012, 03:29:50 AM
Where'd you hear this about cutting her?
That would suck.

In this thread.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:34:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:35:09 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
I like how skillful Margery appears. I'm reading the books again and maybe I'll unpack something I forgot/never discovered but I don't remember that. Of course, one really can't expect less from Anne Boleyn.

No, they're definitely changing Margaery's character to a small degree.  We're basically getting book 4's Margaery ahead of time.  She wasn't nearly as fleshed-out in book 2.

I like that a lot (they should do a Renly/Loras/Margaery spin-off) but I sure hope this is not done because they want to cut Olenna from the show and replace her plots with Margaery's. The Queen of Thorns is one of my favorite characters in the books, and having an old scheming crone would be a hoot on the show too, imo.

I mean, unlike a lot of other pretty bland characters they have removed, Olenna is awesome. She calls her guards "Left" and "Right", has a lot of snarky lines about Mace Tyrell, and then there is the whole "Bear" song that must make it into the show. Yeah, after some thought, I can't imagine them cutting her out - it's unthinkable.

Olenna Tyrell MUST be played by Maggie Smith on her bitchiest incarnation of the Dowager Countess of Grantham.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbloghogwarts.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2Fmaggie-smith.jpg&hash=8cdef9c5c07ab81e30714a2667170b4d8d2501f8)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 17, 2012, 03:37:59 AM
So you did, hadnt' read that far back.

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2012, 12:02:53 PM
I agree Berk.  The other reason I didnt like it, similar to what you have already said, is that in the books Tyrion is very aware that Bronn is loyal to his gold not to him.  Why would Tyrion put Bronn in a position which would lessen Bronn's need for Tyrion's gold?
I dunno. He certainly started that way but it seemed as time went on that Tyrion was beginning to believe there was a friendship forming between them....well. Maybe friendship is too strong a word. But that he believed Bronn to be his man to some extent, as well as his gold's man. That he believed Bronn knew the future was bright with him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 03:38:25 AM
Anyway, it seems that Olenna only appears in the Storm of Swords, so we won't know until they do the casting for the third season (or the fourth).  :(

And the cranky old bats eligible to play her out there are not getting younger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:45:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2012, 08:02:10 PM
We are coming up to one of the truly dark portions of the series.  I will be interested to see how dark the producers decide to go.

Sure thing, though I think they did alright with the killing of that boy.

edit: changed Sue to Sure. :blush:

Taking into account that the 1st episode already ended up with a bout of mass infanticide....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 16, 2012, 08:52:26 PM
Last night's episode was definitely the best of the season thus far and gives me high hopes for the rest.  Next week is more Stannis.  :)

Next week is when the shit will hit the fan.

Here's the preview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqDXB5rSyVk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqDXB5rSyVk)

Daenerys arrives at Quarth, Renly and Stannis meet, Arya arrives at Harrenhall, Davos and Melissandre under Storm's End, hopefully the beginning of the Sansa and the Hound's storyline...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 04:58:38 AM
They have to kill at least one kid per episode. It's in the HBO contract.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 06:31:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:45:13 AM
Taking into account that the 1st episode already ended up with a bout of mass infanticide....

Agree that the show has implied a lot of deaths, and even shown a youth being messily killed, but what is to come is lots of grotesque torture-just-for-fun, the widespread annihilation of villages and travelers, and then, of course, the fun and games in Herrenhall itself.  I just remember this as one of the bleakest story lines in the series to date.  I just wonder how much of that the producers will want to show.  My guess is: not much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 17, 2012, 07:45:39 AM
Better episode than last week.  Tirion was very well casted.  And Loras of course :licklips:




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 17, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 06:31:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:45:13 AM
Taking into account that the 1st episode already ended up with a bout of mass infanticide....

Agree that the show has implied a lot of deaths, and even shown a youth being messily killed, but what is to come is lots of grotesque torture-just-for-fun, the widespread annihilation of villages and travelers, and then, of course, the fun and games in Herrenhall itself.  I just remember this as one of the bleakest story lines in the series to date.  I just wonder how much of that the producers will want to show.  My guess is: not much.

I actually wonder if a lot of people will be turned off by the [spoiler] Red Wedding, sack of Winterfall, and destruction of the Starks[/spoiler].  It's not what many people are expecting.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 17, 2012, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 17, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 06:31:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:45:13 AM
Taking into account that the 1st episode already ended up with a bout of mass infanticide....

Agree that the show has implied a lot of deaths, and even shown a youth being messily killed, but what is to come is lots of grotesque torture-just-for-fun, the widespread annihilation of villages and travelers, and then, of course, the fun and games in Herrenhall itself.  I just remember this as one of the bleakest story lines in the series to date.  I just wonder how much of that the producers will want to show.  My guess is: not much.

I actually wonder if a lot of people will be turned off by the [spoiler] Red Wedding, sack of Winterfall, and destruction of the Starks[/spoiler].  It's not what many people are expecting.


that ain't happenning this season, no?  I thought it was in the 3rd book?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 09:16:56 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 17, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 06:31:05 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 03:45:13 AM
Taking into account that the 1st episode already ended up with a bout of mass infanticide....

Agree that the show has implied a lot of deaths, and even shown a youth being messily killed, but what is to come is lots of grotesque torture-just-for-fun, the widespread annihilation of villages and travelers, and then, of course, the fun and games in Herrenhall itself.  I just remember this as one of the bleakest story lines in the series to date.  I just wonder how much of that the producers will want to show.  My guess is: not much.

I actually wonder if a lot of people will be turned off by the [spoiler] Red Wedding, sack of Winterfall, and destruction of the Starks[/spoiler].  It's not what many people are expecting.

[spoiler]That's why it is probably a good idea to spell out non-Stark characters, who start the book series somewhat shallow (most notable is  Jamie). Everyone who haven't read the books must be certain that this series is mostly about the Starks. Which is, but not the way they now probably think. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
I think the show actually has been making a better job than the books when it comes to not making it about the Starks, imo.

[spoiler]And sack of Winterfell is already planned for on the show - I can't see how anyone can not see that coming.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 17, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
I wonder if the series will do what the books did and lead everyone to believe Bran is dead for a little while.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2012, 10:40:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
I wonder if the series will do what the books did and lead everyone to believe Bran is dead for a little while.
Probably an end of episode cliffhanger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 10:52:00 AM
Use spoiler tags, you gits. There's people who haven't read the books in here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 17, 2012, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 10:52:00 AM
Use spoiler tags, you gits. There's people who haven't read the books in here.

That's why i started this, but it didn't catch on.  :(

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,7000.msg377635.html#msg377635
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 17, 2012, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Kleves on April 16, 2012, 03:02:16 PM
I'd certainly roll into her. *rimshot*

She looks too pouty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 17, 2012, 11:01:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 17, 2012, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Kleves on April 16, 2012, 03:02:16 PM
I'd certainly roll into her. *rimshot*

She looks too pouty.

It's kinda sexy though
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 17, 2012, 11:06:17 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2012, 10:52:00 AM
Use spoiler tags, you gits. There's people who haven't read the books in here.

While I could see that for the most recent book, all the others have been out for years...book 1 debuting in 1996. If someone hasn't availed themselves by now, not really sure whose at fault. Just looked and the 4th book has been out for 7 years. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2012, 11:06:17 AM
While I could see that for the most recent book, all the others have been out for years...book 1 debuting in 1996. If someone hasn't availed themselves by now, not really sure whose at fault. Just looked and the 4th book has been out for 7 years. ;) 

This thread is about the TV show Game of Thrones, not the book series A Song of Ice and Fire .  People interested in the show but not in reading the books should not have their story spoiled by gits too lazy or stupid to spoiler-tag information which refers to events in the show's future.

In the book thread, you may be correct to assume that people entering the thread have read the books.  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 17, 2012, 11:19:32 AM
I don't care either way as I'm not posting any spoilers, but it isn't surprising that many people who read the books are speaking about what my occur further in the series. After all, the tv show has followed pretty closely to many of the major plots.  It might be difficult for people to completely divorce those two.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2012, 11:19:32 AM
I don't care either way as I'm not posting any spoilers, but it isn't surprising that many people who read the books are speaking about what my occur further in the series. After all, the tv show has followed pretty closely to many of the major plots.  It might be difficult for people to completely divorce those two.

It isn't difficult; you just use the spoiler tags [spoiler]like this[/spoiler] when referring to events in the books that haven't been covered yet in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2012, 11:23:31 AM
Non book readers may be interested in this site.

http://winteriscoming.net/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 17, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
I agree with Grumbler, it will be interesting to see how dark they go in the coming episodes.  Based on the last episode I think they will be constrained to some extent by their budget.  As an example, the cutting comment by Lady Stark that Rob was fighting a war not playing at one, lost a bit of its edge because it looked like she was in a war camp - mainly because it was a low budget scene.

[spoiler] In the book her comment is much more cutting because the tournament in which Brienne and Loras fight is much more grand, with large numbers of knights, colourful banners and tents and all the pomp and circumstance of the tournament at King's Landing (before the war).  But the budget was too small to convey that feeling.

I wonder whether the budget will be large enough to convey the horror in kind of devestation portrayed in the books. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 17, 2012, 12:16:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2012, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2012, 11:19:32 AM
I don't care either way as I'm not posting any spoilers, but it isn't surprising that many people who read the books are speaking about what my occur further in the series. After all, the tv show has followed pretty closely to many of the major plots.  It might be difficult for people to completely divorce those two.

It isn't difficult; you just use the spoiler tags [spoiler]like this[/spoiler] when referring to events in the books that haven't been covered yet in the series.

Formatting can be a pain, especially when on a non-traditional device like a tablet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 18, 2012, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2012, 12:16:14 PM
Formatting can be a pain, especially when on a non-traditional device like a tablet.

So don't post spoilers at all when on a non-traditional device like a tablet.  Problem solved, everyone happy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2012, 07:31:45 PM
It's shadow ninja time! :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 22, 2012, 08:52:41 PM
I'm really liking Tyrion, Peter Dinklage's portrayal of him. Doing a great job. The palace intrigue he gets into is pretty awesome, just as in the books.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2012, 12:35:05 AM
Quote from: KRonn on April 22, 2012, 08:52:41 PM
I'm really liking Tyrion, Peter Dinklage's portrayal of him. Doing a great job. The palace intrigue he gets into is pretty awesome, just as in the books.


I was just gonna post that! :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 23, 2012, 01:20:37 AM
So is Melisandre's religion basically right?  There is some indication that the Old Gods exist and have power, as opposed to the Seven, but it would seem that a God of Fire that is capable of granting some pretty impressive abilities and is at constant war with a "Great Other" who is associated with darkness and ice, and who's minions are weak to fire, would fit in to the established mythos pretty easily. If anything, a bit too easily. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2012, 01:31:06 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 23, 2012, 01:20:37 AM
So is Melisandre's religion basically right?  There is some indication that the Old Gods exist and have power, as opposed to the Seven, but it would seem that a God of Fire that is capable of granting some pretty impressive abilities and is at constant war with a "Great Other" who is associated with darkness and ice, and who's minions are weak to fire, would fit in to the established mythos pretty easily. If anything, a bit too easily.
One wonders how the Seven gained so many followers if there's nothing to it and there are competing religions with real power. I haven't read books 4 or 5 though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 23, 2012, 01:34:48 AM
The book notes that the red priests magic didn't actually work until dragons were resurrected. Before that, Melisandre was using powders and such to manipulate fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2012, 02:34:39 AM
Yeah, but the Andals brought the Seven to Westeros long ago when there were still Dragons about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 23, 2012, 02:55:12 AM
That's a fair point. I would say the most likely reason is that:

1) The Andals brought the Seven and beat back the local (old) Gods that are now worshipped in the North.
2) In the east, Valyria was probably pimping out its own religion and with all their dragons burning down cities and their armies conquering everything it probably seemed pretty darn accurate.
3) For whatever reason, Valyria chose not to conquer Westeros (though they certainly could have). They never held more than Dragonstone - some popular theories is that they were afraid of the Others (unlikely in my opinion), or that they feared Westerosi skinchangers (more likely, since they could have possibly possessed their dragons and turned their best weapon against them)
4) Once entrenched, the Seven and its associated religion became too powerful to ignore, even if it did lack real power, it had power in the hearts and minds of the people.
5) The maester order frowns on magic. They are incredibly powerful and influential in Westeros as well, and probably played their part to ensure any magical influences stayed low.

Highly speculative on my part, but I think in light of everything else it makes the most sense. I do think GRRM is writing R'holler into a YAHWEH figure and Westeros will end up in a monotheistic fire worshipping culture by the end of the book (c. 2029/unless they do the Futurama head stuff to him - then 3029)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2012, 03:57:51 AM
Quote3) For whatever reason, Valyria chose not to conquer Westeros (though they certainly could have). They never held more than Dragonstone - some popular theories is that they were afraid of the Others (unlikely in my opinion), or that they feared Westerosi skinchangers (more likely, since they could have possibly possessed their dragons and turned their best weapon against them)
Interesting idea and makes sense.
I'd always just assumed it was like Rome not conquering Scotland- too poor and worthless to be worth the bother when there's so much more to do elsewhere.



It certainly seems that the red faith is the true religion.
Unless perhaps we take a christian outlook (what is Georgey boy's faith like?) and have the seven as the true religion with its hands off gods whilst the red faith is nothing more than cheap tricks to sway those whose faith is unsteady.

Though maybe the seven did used to have power. Perhaps like the Bretonnians in Warhammer, knights actually did gain something supernatural from their faith.

Or it could just be tied into the maesters with their whole anti-magic thing. Given how nasty the magical valeria was an anti-magic faith could gain a lot of popularity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 23, 2012, 07:06:42 AM
fire magic + divination = true religion?

I'm unimpressed. I am, however, going to imply an alternative explanation. Besides it has been made pretty obvious in the books that Stannis' Lightbringer is not Lightbringer(tm).

The Wall, the Children of the Forest, The Walls of Storms End, The Old Gods and The Others are connected in magic. These things are all peculiar to Westeros and are juxtaposed to The Smoking Sea, Fire Divination, R'Hyllor and Dragons.

It's really hard to guess since Martin has planted the hints in a much more elegant manner than he did for Jon Snows parentage. What I can assert is that there is one explanation for The Wall (Ice), Dragons (Fire) and destruction of the land bridge between essos and westeros (which ended at the end of the age of heros).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 23, 2012, 07:23:23 AM
Another issue of confusion for me has been the behaviour of Balon Greyjoy. If his stated goal is to win back the seastone chair his choice of enemy (Robb Stark) is mindbogglingly stupid. It is almost as if his only purpose in the books is to participate in setting Robb up for the  [spoiler]Red Wedding[/spoiler]. Taking the North will not win him the Seastone Chair, Taking Casterly Rock might.

But, then a phrase form Theon (not in the books) about how he did not volunteer to go but was sent and now that he loyally returned he is kicked for having been gone made me look at it differently.

Ned Stark payed the Iron Price for the waters around Pyke, for the land around Pyke, for the walls of Pyke for the lives of Theons two brothers and then most outrageously Ned Stark payed the Iron Price for the honour and virtue of Balon Greyjoy by having him beg for his life and offer up his only remaining son and his throne to purchase it. Balon Greyjoy then fumes for a decade about having been so dishonoured and dreams of revenging himself on those who deprived him of his honour and virtue only to have Robb Stark casually give him his son and his crown as if they meant nothing to Robb. Balon was given back his son and throne and in that act he was denied the opportunity to redeem himself by paying the iron price for the two.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2012, 07:38:47 AM
I really recognise the girl who plays that prostitute....probally from something more wholesome....I wonder what.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2012, 07:43:11 AM
Yeah, it was always about the Iron Price and revenge for Balon. Obviously teaming up with House Stark is smarter. If the North loses than whoever wins in the south whether Baratheon or Lannister will crush the Greyjoys eventually. If Balon helps Rob win though, the land might fracture into several kingdoms. The North (including the Riverlands), The Vale, Dorne, The Iron Islands and the Westerlands, with the Baratheons ruling a remnant that may or may not including The Reach depending on which brother survived.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2012, 08:22:43 AM
Siding with the Starks certainly makes sence for independence and there is a lot of revenge vs the Starks stuff going on in Balon's mind but there's another factor at work too: land.
The smallness and barreness of the Iron Islands is mentioned a lot in the books. I can recall several occasions where Iron Men bemoan the fact that second sons don't have land on which to build a hall.
If the Iron Men side with the Starks and attack the Lannisters....then they and the Starks can gain their independence but it just leaves them stuck on the Iron Islands. The Westlands are too civilized and well settled for land to be really taken there. It'd be much harder to hold too, down in the south, in easy marching distance of elsewhere.
The North however....long stretches of barren coastline galore.
I think for Balon, yup, it was about revenge. But also contributing to the thoughts of attacking the north was likely Asha and probally others, they don't much care about gaining actual independence, they just want more land for the Ironmen. It seems a pretty reasonable assumption that the Lannisters would let them keep the west coast of the North.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 23, 2012, 08:30:30 AM
Surely the north doesn't have a high population for a reason, right? It's not like there is plentiful fertile land that they just don't use.

I don't know. The winters are so stupid, and play such a minimal role in the economy, that it's pointless to worry about them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2012, 08:57:47 AM
Yeah, its largely empty for a reason ala Scandinavia- but the Iron Isles are similarly barren and crappy. The Ironmen make their living from the sea, they don't plan on doing much farming. The quality of the land doesn't matter too much.

Also the Stoney Shore was historically always underpopulated due to Ironmen pirating.

Its also a bit remote from the rest of the north, let alone the rest of the realm. Its just down the road for the seaborne Ironmen though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 23, 2012, 09:09:26 AM
was the scene with Joffrey and the prostitutes in the book? I don't recall it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2012, 09:16:29 AM
Nor I.
In the book I remember Tyrion bought Joffrey some book for his name day and suggested he read it- he chopped it up with a sword he'd got from someone else. Or maybe that was the coronation. I can't recall.

Really wonder who the prozzie is....Initial research suggests: I am wrong, she was in porn. But I'm sure  :Embarrass: isn't in order....must look like someone else....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2012, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2012, 08:22:43 AM
The Westlands are too civilized and well settled for land to be really taken there.
Crush the Lannisters and with Tywin and Kevan dead the lesser Lords of the Westerlands will bend the knee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2012, 10:14:14 AM
What the fuck happened to "let's give everyone 24 hours so they can watch the episode, before commenting"? It's airing on Monday nights here.

I mean, I don't really care about spoilers, but I was banned by the fat fuck for doing exactly that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 23, 2012, 10:21:31 AM
Harsh, what did Berkut ever do to you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 23, 2012, 12:12:40 PM
Haha, so Joffrey is into torture porn.

I wonder how they could shoot that scene though, isn't Jack Gleeson still underage?

EDIT: Guess not, thought he was younger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 23, 2012, 12:26:28 PM
Even if he was underage...he wasn't really involved in anything. I wish I got paid to watch women spanking each other when I was his age....#myjobsucks
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 23, 2012, 12:33:12 PM
Wonder how many takes they had to do because his voice cracked and his palms got so sweaty he dropped the crossbow :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2012, 12:34:04 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2012, 12:12:40 PM
Haha, so Joffrey is into torture porn.

I wonder how they could shoot that scene though, isn't Jack Gleeson still underage?

EDIT: Guess not, thought he was younger.

the law says he can't appear nude on screen, even if adult, while portraying a minor.  Doesn't apply to seeing naked women.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 23, 2012, 12:39:12 PM
Which is why, incidentally, we didn't get to see Sophie Turner (Sansa) more disrobed in that other scene with Joff, since I'm pretty sure she's still quite young.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 23, 2012, 12:40:38 PM
She might be 15 if that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 23, 2012, 12:45:36 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 23, 2012, 09:09:26 AM
was the scene with Joffrey and the prostitutes in the book? I don't recall it.

Yes, it was.  Don't you remember all the Joffrey POV chapters?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
Gotta say Tywin is a badass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2012, 03:19:10 PM
Also, Stannis is a grammar nazi.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 23, 2012, 04:32:29 PM
- He was born amidst salt and smoke!
- Is he a ham?

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2012, 05:10:52 PM
The Baratheon Brothers' Bitchfest (BBB) rocked.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 23, 2012, 05:54:52 PM
No peach though.  :P



I am having a lot of difficulty understanding Arya's lines when she speaks them. I think it's the combination of the frequency of her voice, accent, that she speaks quickly and abruptly and that she slurs through things. Several times I've had to rewind and listen again, and if I'm not consciously concentrating on her, I nearly always miss it. Last week's episode was especially bad for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 23, 2012, 07:51:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2012, 10:14:14 AM
What the fuck happened to "let's give everyone 24 hours so they can watch the episode, before commenting"? It's airing on Monday nights here.

I mean, I don't really care about spoilers, but I was banned by the fat fuck for doing exactly that.

I generally don't open this thread till I've seen the current episode. Pretty obvious what people will be chatting about when it becomes a near-the-top, topic again.

Also, looks like they did pretty good the creepy/horror front. Not in actually terrifying but very distasteful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 23, 2012, 07:53:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 23, 2012, 10:14:14 AM
What the fuck happened to "let's give everyone 24 hours so they can watch the episode, before commenting"? It's airing on Monday nights here.

I mean, I don't really care about spoilers, but I was banned by the fat fuck for doing exactly that.

I want to point out that all my speculation was based on last weeks episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 23, 2012, 09:40:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 23, 2012, 07:51:22 PM
Also, looks like they did pretty good the creepy/horror front. Not in actually terrifying but very distasteful.

I found it more creepy than distasteful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 23, 2012, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 23, 2012, 09:40:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 23, 2012, 07:51:22 PM
Also, looks like they did pretty good the creepy/horror front. Not in actually terrifying but very distasteful.

I found it more creepy than distasteful.

Sorry, I don't think I picked my words right. I don't mean I found it distasteful what the show did but rather that while not legitimately creeped out (as such hardly rises to the merits of scaring a jaded 20-something in the 21st century :P), I did find the characters' actions disgusting.  And I think that is entirely the appropriate tone - so I applaud what they did.  When Joffrey handed over the rod, I think I exclaimed 'oh shit.'  Also because they couldn't actually have Sansa stripped naked, I thought the prostitute cruelty scene filled in nicely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 24, 2012, 03:37:54 AM
Looks like they're changing a fair bit with Arya, Lannister has made her his cupbearer; IIRC that didn't come till Lord Bolton after she handed him the castle, before hand she was just some servant.

QuoteI generally don't open this thread till I've seen the current episode. Pretty obvious what people will be chatting about when it becomes a near-the-top, topic again.
Second.
If I'm too busy to see it on Monday then I don't look at this thread.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2012, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2012, 08:22:43 AM
The Westlands are too civilized and well settled for land to be really taken there.
Crush the Lannisters and with Tywin and Kevan dead the lesser Lords of the Westerlands will bend the knee.
They want fresh land for their kids to settle with their slaves. Not snooty southern vassals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 06:28:01 AM
They skipped right over the whole Tickler bit and the march of Gregor Clegane through the Riverlands with Arya in tow.  I'm grateful for that.  it was in some ways the bleakest bit of the book series, and it was bad enough just reading about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 06:33:56 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 24, 2012, 03:37:54 AM
They want fresh land for their kids to settle with their slaves. Not snooty southern vassals.

That's absurd.  The Riverlands had been under the iron Crown when the Targaryens invaded.  There is no reason why the iron Islanders wouldn't want it back.

No, they invaded the North first because they thought the North to be the most vulnerable.  They would have  taken the southern lands (and "snooty southern vassals") first, had that been the easiest course.  As it is, they can wait until southern wars cripple southern power before moving in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2012, 06:37:55 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 24, 2012, 03:37:54 AM
Looks like they're changing a fair bit with Arya, Lannister has made her his cupbearer; IIRC that didn't come till Lord Bolton after she handed him the castle, before hand she was just some servant.

They want fresh land for their kids to settle with their slaves. Not snooty southern vassals.
They need to give Arya a good reason not to have him assassinated when she gets Jaqen's offer.

The Ironbron ruled the Riverlands once didn't they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 24, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 06:33:56 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 24, 2012, 03:37:54 AM
They want fresh land for their kids to settle with their slaves. Not snooty southern vassals.

That's absurd.  The Riverlands had been under the iron Crown when the Targaryens invaded.  There is no reason why the iron Islanders wouldn't want it back.

No, they invaded the North first because they thought the North to be the most vulnerable.  They would have  taken the southern lands (and "snooty southern vassals") first, had that been the easiest course.  As it is, they can wait until southern wars cripple southern power before moving in.

The Ironmen ruled the Riverlands.  As Lords who took what they wanted from the people. Not with the King of the Ironmen also having Rivermen vassals.
There's just no way they'd let mainlanders bend the knee and accept the Kingdom of the Iron Islands as their land- not in any significant numbers anyway. Thats the mainlander way of doing things, not the Iron way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 24, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 06:28:01 AM
They skipped right over the whole Tickler bit and the march of Gregor Clegane through the Riverlands with Arya in tow.  I'm grateful for that.  it was in some ways the bleakest bit of the book series, and it was bad enough just reading about it.

I thought it was a good choice from the perspective that they need to cut some content, and while the content there was pretty damn well done in the books, you could pretty much just skip it.

I think we are going to see something similar with Daenyrs - I suspect the Unsullied will come from Qarth, for example.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 24, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
The Ironmen ruled the Riverlands.  As Lords who took what they wanted from the people. Not with the King of the Ironmen also having Rivermen vassals.
Totally incorrect.  I'm not sure why you would fabricate easily-disproven "facts" like this, unless you just don't want to admit that you are wrong.  Edmyn Tully is specifically noted as a vassal of Harren the Black who turned against him when Aegon arrived. 

QuoteThere's just no way they'd let mainlanders bend the knee and accept the Kingdom of the Iron Islands as their land- not in any significant numbers anyway. Thats the mainlander way of doing things, not the Iron way.

Argument by assertion, and contrary to what the books themselves say.  The Riverlords had, indeed, bent the knee to the iron Crown and in significant numbers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:32:20 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 24, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
I thought it was a good choice from the perspective that they need to cut some content, and while the content there was pretty damn well done in the books, you could pretty much just skip it.

Agreed, and why I raised the issue some time ago: HBO could have gotten some "cheap thrills" by dwelling on the sadism of Gregor Clegane and his men, but that wouldn't have advanced the story much.  I am perfectly happy with that situation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 24, 2012, 07:30:35 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m2z7rhvm8I1r5fyi4o1_1280.jpg&hash=103422f495a191f8e6c8ec414aecac7f5ab2bd03)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
 :lmfao:

http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2012/04/23/gop-of-thrones-rose-garden-of-bones?xrs=eml_indy0405
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 25, 2012, 12:43:42 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
:lmfao:

http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2012/04/23/gop-of-thrones-rose-garden-of-bones?xrs=eml_indy0405

This is not funny.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 25, 2012, 12:50:05 AM
Maybe it could be if you took enough narcotics. Or if you'd gone without sleep for 3 days.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2012, 12:56:47 AM
Come on, the Newt one at least is hilarious
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 25, 2012, 04:33:01 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 25, 2012, 12:50:05 AM
Maybe it could be if you took enough narcotics. Or if you'd gone without sleep for 3 days.  :hmm:

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2012, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 24, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
The Ironmen ruled the Riverlands.  As Lords who took what they wanted from the people. Not with the King of the Ironmen also having Rivermen vassals.
Totally incorrect.  I'm not sure why you would fabricate easily-disproven "facts" like this, unless you just don't want to admit that you are wrong.  Edmyn Tully is specifically noted as a vassal of Harren the Black who turned against him when Aegon arrived. 

QuoteThere's just no way they'd let mainlanders bend the knee and accept the Kingdom of the Iron Islands as their land- not in any significant numbers anyway. Thats the mainlander way of doing things, not the Iron way.

Argument by assertion, and contrary to what the books themselves say.  The Riverlords had, indeed, bent the knee to the iron Crown and in significant numbers.

That being said, the King of the Iron Islands did conquer the Riverlands from the Storm King. It wasn't inherited by him or given to him by anyone. They also only held it for the duration of the rule of three Kings (from Harwyn Hardhand until Harren the Black) and that was several hundreds years ago, so they wouldn't necessarily see the Riverlands as rightfully theirs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2012, 11:41:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2012, 10:01:58 AM
That being said, the King of the Iron Islands did conquer the Riverlands from the Storm King. It wasn't inherited by him or given to him by anyone. They also only held it for the duration of the rule of three Kings (from Harwyn Hardhand until Harren the Black) and that was several hundreds years ago, so they wouldn't necessarily see the Riverlands as rightfully theirs.
I don't think they see the North as rightfully theirs, either.  The issue isn't "what do they see as "rightfully theirs"'  so much as it is "why are they attacking the North instead of allying with it?"  The answer is that the North is the most vulnerable land, not that the Iron Islanders refuse to conquer the Riverlands because it would land them with "snooty southern vassals."

The Iron islanders are opportunists.  They will take anything not nailed down, but will pay the iron price themselves only when necessary, and only as much of the price as is necessary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 25, 2012, 11:48:05 AM
Indeed - the "Iron Price" is not about honour or integrity or even being a bad ass - it is simply about NOT being merchants/farmers/producers.

They are reavers, pure and simple. They are quite content reaving from women and children, and in fact prefer to do so, if the men are off somewhere else. They chose to go after the north for exactly that reason the northern men are off somewhere else, so the "Iron Price" for their reaving will be as cheap as possible.

Which is really why Theon taking Winterfell kind of made it clear that he was not truly an Ironborn anymore - he didn't really understand the point. The point is not to go take and hold land (although they may do just that if they think nobody will fight to get it back - clearly NOT the case with Winterfell), it is to raid and take slaves, material, and their particular brand of glory.

They are griefers, not conquerors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2012, 11:51:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 25, 2012, 11:41:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2012, 10:01:58 AM
That being said, the King of the Iron Islands did conquer the Riverlands from the Storm King. It wasn't inherited by him or given to him by anyone. They also only held it for the duration of the rule of three Kings (from Harwyn Hardhand until Harren the Black) and that was several hundreds years ago, so they wouldn't necessarily see the Riverlands as rightfully theirs.
I don't think they see the North as rightfully theirs, either.  The issue isn't "what do they see as "rightfully theirs"'  so much as it is "why are they attacking the North instead of allying with it?"  The answer is that the North is the most vulnerable land, not that the Iron Islanders refuse to conquer the Riverlands because it would land them with "snooty southern vassals."

The Iron islanders are opportunists.  They will take anything not nailed down, but will pay the iron price themselves only when necessary, and only as much of the price as is necessary.

I agree with that. It's often difficult to tell what everyone is trying to say after some form of obscure debate has been going for pages. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 25, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 25, 2012, 11:48:05 AM
Indeed - the "Iron Price" is not about honour or integrity or even being a bad ass - it is simply about NOT being merchants/farmers/producers.

They are reavers, pure and simple. They are quite content reaving from women and children, and in fact prefer to do so, if the men are off somewhere else. They chose to go after the north for exactly that reason the northern men are off somewhere else, so the "Iron Price" for their reaving will be as cheap as possible.

Which is really why Theon taking Winterfell kind of made it clear that he was not truly an Ironborn anymore - he didn't really understand the point. The point is not to go take and hold land (although they may do just that if they think nobody will fight to get it back - clearly NOT the case with Winterfell), it is to raid and take slaves, material, and their particular brand of glory.

They are griefers, not conquerors.

Quote from: A Clash of Kings; Ch 24 Theon IIILord Balon rode over him. "The lords are gone south with
the pup. Those who remained behind are the cravens, old
men, and green boys. They will yield or fall, one by one.
Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest
shall be ours, forest and field and hall
, and we shall make
the folk our thralls and salt wives."

Balon isn't just going to go raiding, he wants to conquer.

Balon's behaviour just does not make sense other than in the desire to redeem his wounded pride, or conquer the north.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2012, 09:14:17 PM
Ratings are good, growing from 9.3 million views last year to 10.4 million this year.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/04/thrones-keeps-steady-numbers/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on April 25, 2012, 11:01:41 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 06:28:01 AM
They skipped right over the whole Tickler bit and the march of Gregor Clegane through the Riverlands with Arya in tow.  I'm grateful for that.  it was in some ways the bleakest bit of the book series, and it was bad enough just reading about it.

... and it went on forever too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2012, 08:38:02 AM
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2012, 11:01:41 PM
... and it went on forever too.
Agree, but argue that that was one of the reasons it was so effective.  Page after page of horror makes it sure that you realize that this isn't an isolated thing, but rather the new condition of things.

I skipped that whole part when i reread the books prior to reading the fifth book.  Just too grim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2012, 07:53:04 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtJZ6S.jpg&hash=b0a9daa06f43fe16bb7f65fd780af5a66e5b0cf9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 27, 2012, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:29:04 AM

Argument by assertion,

Saw this and zoned out. Grumblering....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 27, 2012, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:29:04 AM

Argument by assertion,

Saw this and zoned out. Grumblering....
:lol:  Yeah, you'd want to avoid seeing the mention of argument by assertion, yourself.  ReTyr'd.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 27, 2012, 06:53:35 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/psVBH (http://imgur.com/gallery/psVBH)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 27, 2012, 06:55:51 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 27, 2012, 06:53:35 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/psVBH (http://imgur.com/gallery/psVBH)

"Always going on about Climate Change."  :lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 27, 2012, 11:09:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 27, 2012, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:29:04 AM

Argument by assertion,

Saw this and zoned out. Grumblering....
:lol:  Yeah, you'd want to avoid seeing the mention of argument by assertion, yourself.  ReTyr'd.

He's simply ignoring you.  I thought you were down with that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 27, 2012, 11:19:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 27, 2012, 11:09:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 27, 2012, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:29:04 AM

Argument by assertion,

Saw this and zoned out. Grumblering....
:lol:  Yeah, you'd want to avoid seeing the mention of argument by assertion, yourself.  ReTyr'd.

He's simply ignoring you.  I thought you were down with that.

That's a rather passive-aggressive manner of ignoring someone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 27, 2012, 11:21:34 AM
Grumbler does that too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 27, 2012, 11:28:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 27, 2012, 11:21:34 AM
Grumbler does that too.

It rings hollow when he does it as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 27, 2012, 06:06:22 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 27, 2012, 06:53:35 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/psVBH (http://imgur.com/gallery/psVBH)

That is great Larch.  Thanks for posting it.

Liked the Clinton one the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 27, 2012, 09:21:13 PM
In show heights.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmSUjE.jpg&hash=a12dbefc5b0253dd2acb2601552ef995fc7ecca5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2012, 02:39:18 AM
Wow. Dani is a midget.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 28, 2012, 03:59:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 28, 2012, 02:39:18 AM
Wow. Dani is a midget.
isn't she like 14 or 15 when to books start?
So lots of opportunity for growth :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 04:42:30 AM
Why is Ghost in Stark White?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2012, 06:17:08 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 28, 2012, 03:59:40 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 28, 2012, 02:39:18 AM
Wow. Dani is a midget.
isn't she like 14 or 15 when to books start?
So lots of opportunity for growth :p

The actress though is in her 20s iirc.
I had seen she was short but didn't think she was quite that tiny. Her hotness level is depleting. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 28, 2012, 06:28:57 AM
Since when is 5'3" a midget?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 28, 2012, 07:10:02 AM
Seems like a perfectly normal height for a woman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 07:14:21 AM
http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=3995

QuoteFrom the 10th century through to the 19th, the average height of adult men was 5ft 7in or 170cm - just 2in below today's average. Women were an average of 5ft 2in or 158cm - just over an inch shorter than today. All the bones in the study came from the medieval St Peter's Church in Barton upon Humber, North East Lincolnshire.

It's the kids of today that are freakishly big. So, Dany is about 1 inch taller than average Medieval Lincolnshire Englishwomen.



N.B.

while searching I found this..

http://medieval-castles.org/index.php/how_tall_were_people_during_the_middle_a

QuoteThere are records of many dwarfs during the Middle Ages. This was surprisingly more common among nobles probably because of family members marrying each other. More notoriously is the case of a British king who was so short that his throne had to be shortened especially for him. Of course there is no evidence to support this and it may simply be a myth - but, the fact that many dwarfs existed is well documented.

That's so cute, Tyrion is a dwarf because Tywin married his cousin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on April 28, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 07:14:21 AM
That's so cute, Tyrion is a dwarf because Tywin married his cousin.
Unlikely. Most cases of achondroplasia are due to de novo mutations in the father's spermatogonium. Neither parent has to be a dwarf. It's usually associated with advanced paternal age.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 07:14:21 AM
That's so cute, Tyrion is a dwarf because Tywin married his cousin.
Unlikely. Most cases of achondroplasia are due to de novo mutations in the father's spermatogonium. Neither parent has to be a dwarf. It's usually associated with advanced paternal age.

Neither Tywin Lannister nor Joanna Lannister were dwarves, they were, however, cousins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on April 28, 2012, 01:21:46 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 07:14:21 AM
That's so cute, Tyrion is a dwarf because Tywin married his cousin.
Unlikely. Most cases of achondroplasia are due to de novo mutations in the father's spermatogonium. Neither parent has to be a dwarf. It's usually associated with advanced paternal age.

Neither Tywin Lannister nor Joanna Lannister were dwarves, they were, however, cousins.
That is irrelevant. The kind of dwarfism that Tyrion has (which is also the most common type) is caused by a mutation is his father's sperm. The mutation happened in the father during adulthood. The father doesn't have the mutation in his somatic cells (thus he is not a dwarf), it's only in certain germ cells. The risk of obtaining mutations in your germ cells increases as you age. Everyone accumulates these mutations in their sperm, it's just a matter of that sperm wining the egg lottery. Even you have a chance of popping out a baby Tyrion if you waited long enough to have children.

The reason people worry about marrying cousins is because of auotsomal recessive conditions. Achondroplasia is an autosomal dominant condition in which most cases arise de novo from the male's germ line, meaning neither parent has the mutation and there would be no family history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2012, 01:24:10 PM
But they were cousins!!!!!!1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 01:21:46 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 07:14:21 AM
That's so cute, Tyrion is a dwarf because Tywin married his cousin.
Unlikely. Most cases of achondroplasia are due to de novo mutations in the father's spermatogonium. Neither parent has to be a dwarf. It's usually associated with advanced paternal age.

Neither Tywin Lannister nor Joanna Lannister were dwarves, they were, however, cousins.
That is irrelevant. The kind of dwarfism that Tyrion (which is also the most common type) is caused by a mutation is his father's sperm. The mutation happened in the father during adulthood. The father doesn't have the mutation in his somatic cells (thus he is not a dwarf), it's only in certain germ cells. The risk of obtaining mutations in your germ cells increases as you age. Everyone accumulates these mutations in their sperm, it's just a matter of that sperm wining the egg lottery. Even you have a chance of popping out a baby Tyrion if you waited long enough to have children.

You are diagnosing a fictional character based the known facts that he is short, has mismatched eyes, his legs are short and his cock (apparently) isn't. Are you perhaps diagnosing Peter Dinklage?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2012, 01:24:10 PM
But they were cousins!!!!!!1

First cousins apparently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on April 28, 2012, 01:49:24 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 01:21:46 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 07:14:21 AM
That's so cute, Tyrion is a dwarf because Tywin married his cousin.
Unlikely. Most cases of achondroplasia are due to de novo mutations in the father's spermatogonium. Neither parent has to be a dwarf. It's usually associated with advanced paternal age.

Neither Tywin Lannister nor Joanna Lannister were dwarves, they were, however, cousins.
That is irrelevant. The kind of dwarfism that Tyrion (which is also the most common type) is caused by a mutation is his father's sperm. The mutation happened in the father during adulthood. The father doesn't have the mutation in his somatic cells (thus he is not a dwarf), it's only in certain germ cells. The risk of obtaining mutations in your germ cells increases as you age. Everyone accumulates these mutations in their sperm, it's just a matter of that sperm wining the egg lottery. Even you have a chance of popping out a baby Tyrion if you waited long enough to have children.

You are diagnosing a fictional character based the known facts that he is short, has mismatched eyes, his legs are short and his cock (apparently) isn't. Are you perhaps diagnosing Peter Dinklage?

Short legs and arms with a normal sized axial skeleton (penis included) and a large forehead are pathognomonic of achondroplasia. Also the known fact that neither parent is short and there's no mention of dwarves in the immediate family (grandparents, siblings, children), suggesting it's a germ line mutation acquired as an adult in the father.

Sure, that's not the only cause of dwarfism. There are other types where the entire body is proportionally small (cock and all), but those are much more rare and tend to be familial (i.e. pygmies, Laron's syndrome) or due to some pituitary or hypothalamic abnormality (i.e. growth hormone deficiency).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 02:05:19 PM
And you are sure that

A) The lannisters didn't hide their previous dwarves
B) Aeres II attempts at dragon magic have nothing to do with it
C) Martin actually knows what you know and takes account for it

But still, Dwarves with proper proportions are genetic dwarves and dwarfs with stunted legs have daddies with mutated sperm. Nice to know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on April 28, 2012, 02:12:10 PM
I have no idea what Martin knows, but the book as written is entirely consistent with the diagnosis of achondroplasia in Tyrion. Sibling incest and marrying cousins isn't a good thing for the Lannister's genetic pool, but the type of dwarfism that Tyrion has isn't a negative consequence of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 28, 2012, 02:12:10 PM
I have no idea what Martin knows, but the book as written is entirely consistent with the diagnosis of achondroplasia in Tyrion. Sibling incest and marrying cousins isn't a good thing for the Lannister's genetic pool, but the type of dwarfism that Tyrion has isn't a negative consequence of it.

Though, it is quite possible that due to the strong tabu against incest in western culture renders Martins knowledge of dwarves exclusive to the achondroplasic dwarves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 28, 2012, 02:28:04 PM
Viking aren't you of Icelandic stock? They're all cousins and they all seem tall to me :P. cousin fucking on its own isn't problematic, it's fucking a cousin with bad genes :P. and even then it takes a few generations. Its not like if you go knock up your cousin right now shes gonna pop out a flipper baby :D  until recently "keeping it in the family" was pretty common for rich and poor alike. Although really excelled at it :lol: 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 28, 2012, 02:29:41 PM
Also I find it funny that there's not enough info about the Imp to prove fate right, but there is enough info to prove you right even though you take greater mental leaps :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on April 28, 2012, 02:30:08 PM
I'm not a writer myself but since Tyrion is such an important character, I wouldn't be shocked if Martin put some research into making a major character trait as realistic as possible. Regardless, the dwarfism etiology that most lay people unconsciously know from popular culture is achondroplasia. Martin could write a character consistent with that disease without really knowing what it was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 02:36:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 28, 2012, 02:28:04 PM
Viking aren't you of Icelandic stock? They're all cousins and they all seem tall to me :P. cousin fucking on its own isn't problematic, it's fucking a cousin with bad genes :P. and even then it takes a few generations. Its not like if you go knock up your cousin right now shes gonna pop out a flipper baby :D  until recently "keeping it in the family" was pretty common for rich and poor alike. Although really excelled at it :lol:

The Incest taboo is really really strong among us. It's one of the reasons for the icelandic obsession with genealogy. iirc icelandic law forbids marriage between 3rd cousins, the rest of scandinavia permits second cousins to marry.

BTW my mom was my dads 5th cousins once removed. So they share at least one of 64 ancestors living around the time of Waterloo. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
Tywin Lannisters listing in Forbes' Richest 15 Fictional Characters (http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/fictional-15-12/tywin-lannister.html)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 28, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
Though, it is quite possible that due to the strong tabu against incest in western culture renders Martins knowledge of dwarves exclusive to the achondroplasic dwarves.

There is a strong taboo against incest, but I'd never heard that it tends to result in dwarfs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 28, 2012, 04:36:23 PM
Raz is amused that Viking has failed at science.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2012, 08:05:16 PM
Tyrion being a dwarf due to cousin marriage: well...that would certainly work against the big fan theory of Tyrion being the mad king's son.

Quote from: The Larch on April 28, 2012, 06:28:57 AM
Since when is 5'3" a midget?

Since I passed the 6 foot mark. :p
It really is super short in my book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 12:43:23 AM
There are a ton of crazy fan theories. My favorite one is that Jaime/Cersei are actually Aerys' children and Tyrion is Tywin's only child.

It certainly would play into the theme that Targaryens are either insane or brilliant. I daresay Cersei is batshit crazy while Jaime is quite a brilliant and charming cripple.

Still, there's no foundation for any of these theories and I do wonder sometimes if George RR gets lost in his writing sometimes and pops onto fan forums to pick a crazy theory he likes and runs with it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 29, 2012, 02:14:44 AM
There's something to the Tyrion one, though I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head. Tywin had his big falling out with Aerys around the time Tyrion would have been concieved is all I can recall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Octavian on April 29, 2012, 02:31:24 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
Tywin Lannisters listing in Forbes' Richest 15 Fictional Characters (http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/fictional-15-12/tywin-lannister.html)

That list is worthless without Scrooge Mcduck

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F7%2F73%2FBarksScrooge.jpg&hash=6d80a6be52e3324ae68bfd631013c11c6df50937)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 03:37:16 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 29, 2012, 02:14:44 AM
There's something to the Tyrion one, though I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head. Tywin had his big falling out with Aerys around the time Tyrion would have been concieved is all I can recall.

[spoiler]
In Dance with Dragons, BarristerBoy the Bold alludes to some kind of cheekiness on the part of Aerys towards Tywin's wife during their wedding celebration. I wonder if there's something to that.

There is also when Tywin took his ball and went home. I think that was because Aerys refused to let Cersei marry Rhaegar.
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2012, 05:06:57 AM
I think Tyrion is much more likely to be a Targ than the twins are. He is brilliant and slightly mad. Neither of the twins is either.

Plus there is something Tywin says on the crapper...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 29, 2012, 10:39:27 AM
Quote from: Octavian on April 29, 2012, 02:31:24 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
Tywin Lannisters listing in Forbes' Richest 15 Fictional Characters (http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/fictional-15-12/tywin-lannister.html)

That list is worthless without Scrooge Mcduck

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F7%2F73%2FBarksScrooge.jpg&hash=6d80a6be52e3324ae68bfd631013c11c6df50937)

Sadly, the list does in fact contain Scrooge McDuck reference.

-_-

http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/fictional-15-12/flintheart-glomgold.html

This is one of the silliest things I've ever seen by the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Octavian on April 29, 2012, 01:19:13 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2012, 10:39:27 AM
Quote from: Octavian on April 29, 2012, 02:31:24 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
Tywin Lannisters listing in Forbes' Richest 15 Fictional Characters (http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/fictional-15-12/tywin-lannister.html)

That list is worthless without Scrooge Mcduck

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F7%2F73%2FBarksScrooge.jpg&hash=6d80a6be52e3324ae68bfd631013c11c6df50937)

Sadly, the list does in fact contain Scrooge McDuck reference.

-_-

http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/fictional-15-12/flintheart-glomgold.html

This is one of the silliest things I've ever seen by the way.

Indeed it does but it doesn't include Scrooge himself.

Well it a list of the wealthiest fictional characters. Of course it's silly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2012, 05:06:57 AM
I think Tyrion is much more likely to be a Targ than the twins are. He is brilliant and slightly mad. Neither of the twins is either.

Plus there is something Tywin says on the crapper...

Oh PLEASE! If that is true, he would have had Tyrion killed off years ago. Tyrion is in no way, shape or form slightly mad. He is probably one of the most sane people in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2012, 05:06:57 AM
I think Tyrion is much more likely to be a Targ than the twins are. He is brilliant and slightly mad. Neither of the twins is either.

Plus there is something Tywin says on the crapper...

Oh PLEASE! If that is true, he would have had Tyrion killed off years ago. Tyrion is in no way, shape or form slightly mad. He is probably one of the most sane people in the series.
[spoiler]
Tyrion had to be somewhat mad at his father to have shot him in the groin with a crossbow.[/spoiler]

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flolpie.com%2Fimages%2Farchive%2Fcontent%2F1%2F4%2Fu-mad-bro-5Ebbc.png&hash=1c16a5986ad503396abe1543f3ffee76f4a5faa4)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 29, 2012, 04:23:02 PM
Just finished the latest book. Sigh. The "character gets killed only he doesn't" thing got old around the 20th time. FFS Martin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 05:47:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2012, 05:06:57 AM
I think Tyrion is much more likely to be a Targ than the twins are. He is brilliant and slightly mad. Neither of the twins is either.

Plus there is something Tywin says on the crapper...

Oh PLEASE! If that is true, he would have had Tyrion killed off years ago. Tyrion is in no way, shape or form slightly mad. He is probably one of the most sane people in the series.
[spoiler]Tyrion had to be somewhat mad at his father to have shot him in the groin with a crossbow.[/spoiler]

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flolpie.com%2Fimages%2Farchive%2Fcontent%2F1%2F4%2Fu-mad-bro-5Ebbc.png&hash=1c16a5986ad503396abe1543f3ffee76f4a5faa4)

LOL! grumbler has still got it. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2012, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2012, 05:06:57 AM
I think Tyrion is much more likely to be a Targ than the twins are. He is brilliant and slightly mad. Neither of the twins is either.

Plus there is something Tywin says on the crapper...

Oh PLEASE! If that is true, he would have had Tyrion killed off years ago. Tyrion is in no way, shape or form slightly mad. He is probably one of the most sane people in the series.
Tyrion had to be somewhat mad to...

Spoilers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 07:10:01 PM
I edited your quote grumbler. -_-
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2012, 07:24:30 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 05:47:47 PM

LOL! grumbler has still got it. :thumbsup:

If only he would try to get it treated.  Or at least stop trying to spread it around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 29, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2012, 07:24:30 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 05:47:47 PM

LOL! grumbler has still got it. :thumbsup:

If only he would try to get it treated.  Or at least stop trying to spread it around.
:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 29, 2012, 07:40:24 PM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 05:47:47 PM
LOL! grumbler has still got it. :thumbsup:

:unsure:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.funcheap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2Fit-250x200.jpg&hash=3b760bfc073f0ba3906410ca92c3f610e0381903)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 29, 2012, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2012, 09:32:20 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 24, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
I thought it was a good choice from the perspective that they need to cut some content, and while the content there was pretty damn well done in the books, you could pretty much just skip it.

Agreed, and why I raised the issue some time ago: HBO could have gotten some "cheap thrills" by dwelling on the sadism of Gregor Clegane and his men, but that wouldn't have advanced the story much.  I am perfectly happy with that situation.
Agreed. It was a nasty part of the story, all the pillaging and raping they did. Gave additional sense of the type of war they were waging, and good reason to hate on Gregor and crew, but it didn't need to be in the movie if deciding what to cut and what to leave in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 05:15:32 AM
Quote from: Jaron on April 29, 2012, 07:10:01 PM
I edited your quote grumbler. -_-
So did I.  Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on April 30, 2012, 05:15:01 PM
Do we ever learn why the Greyjoys didn't rise up during the war between the Baratheons and Targaryns? As opposed to waiting for Westeros to be united?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 05:43:29 PM
I'm sure it must be cool and awesome in the books but Vagina Black Mist Stannis is fucking stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 30, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 30, 2012, 05:15:01 PM
Do we ever learn why the Greyjoys didn't rise up during the war between the Baratheons and Targaryns? As opposed to waiting for Westeros to be united?

Balon Greyjoy is fucking stupid acting on motives of honour rather than acual reason. Best example is his war against Robb Stark when he is trying to achieve independence from Joffrey on the Iron Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 08:23:31 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 05:43:29 PM
I'm sure it must be cool and awesome in the books but Vagina Black Mist Stannis is fucking stupid.

Disagree.  They did that about as well as it could be done.

The direction in this TV series is really excellent.  HBO has a tradition of excellent direction, but this is good even for them.  I'd say it is movie-quality, and movie directors are expensive.

Casting is movie-quality as well, but that's not so rare.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 08:34:16 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 30, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on April 30, 2012, 05:15:01 PM
Do we ever learn why the Greyjoys didn't rise up during the war between the Baratheons and Targaryns? As opposed to waiting for Westeros to be united?

Balon Greyjoy is fucking stupid acting on motives of honour rather than acual reason. Best example is his war against Robb Stark when he is trying to achieve independence from Joffrey on the Iron Throne.

Agree, but that's Martin's problem - he wants things to be as bleak as they could possibly be.  That gets old.

As for Faelin's question, I think that the Greyjoys sat tight hoping that the two sides bloodied themselves into exhaustion, at which point rebellion would be more likely to succeed.  In fact, I think that Balon Greyjoy assumed that this was in fact the case, else his rebellion made little sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 09:17:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 08:23:31 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 05:43:29 PM
I'm sure it must be cool and awesome in the books but Vagina Black Mist Stannis is fucking stupid.

Disagree.  They did that about as well as it could be done.

The direction in this TV series is really excellent.  HBO has a tradition of excellent direction, but this is good even for them.  I'd say it is movie-quality, and movie directors are expensive.

Casting is movie-quality as well, but that's not so rare.

Oh, I'm not knocking how they did it. I'm knocking Martin's stupid idea of a Vagina Black Mist Stannis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 09:17:13 PM
Oh, I'm not knocking how they did it. I'm knocking Martin's stupid idea of a Vagina Black Mist Stannis.
I'm not sure what you are knocking.  The idea that Stannis's religious adviser is one of the first ones who realizes that magic is back is great, as far as I am concerned.

I understand that Martin-bashing for the sake of Martin-bashing is all the rage, but this wasn't one of the things I think he is rightfully bashed for.

[spoiler]The trivial reanimation of dead people is worth the bashing.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 09:30:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 09:17:13 PM
Oh, I'm not knocking how they did it. I'm knocking Martin's stupid idea of a Vagina Black Mist Stannis.
I'm not sure what you are knocking.

Did it really need to come out of her vagina tho?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 30, 2012, 09:32:17 PM
Why are you so afraid of things coming out of vaginas grey wolfe?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 30, 2012, 09:33:55 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 09:30:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 30, 2012, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 30, 2012, 09:17:13 PM
Oh, I'm not knocking how they did it. I'm knocking Martin's stupid idea of a Vagina Black Mist Stannis.
I'm not sure what you are knocking.

Did it really need to come out of her vagina tho?

Yeah, would've been better if Melisandra had just given Stannis head and vomited up the shadow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 30, 2012, 09:35:39 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 30, 2012, 09:32:17 PM
Why are you so afraid of things coming out of vaginas grey wolfe?

He did recently have a child.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 30, 2012, 09:36:43 PM
Which should have made him more ready for the horrors that can come out of there!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 30, 2012, 09:39:40 PM
I think he was prepared, but doesn't like to be reminded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 01, 2012, 03:29:04 AM
I gotta say I really liked the last episode. I think the show has finally picked its pace this season - until now it felt to me like there have been a lot of interesting scenes, but it felt like "exposition" too much, setting up the pieces as it were.

Now the pieces started moving.

I especially enjoyed the Harrenhall parts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 01, 2012, 03:32:59 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 30, 2012, 09:32:17 PM
Why are you so afraid of things coming out of vaginas grey wolfe?

Must be all the post-STD traumas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 01, 2012, 07:12:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2012, 03:29:04 AM
I gotta say I really liked the last episode. I think the show has finally picked its pace this season - until now it felt to me like there have been a lot of interesting scenes, but it felt like "exposition" too much, setting up the pieces as it were.

Now the pieces started moving.

I especially enjoyed the Harrenhall parts.

The show does pack a lot in one hour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 01, 2012, 01:46:50 PM
One of the "critical recaps" of the last episode I read made me realize probably why I liked the Harrenhall sequences the most - they are the most like the books, in that they show the entire Harrenhall experience through the eyes of Arya alone, and noone else's.

Every other location in the show is being shown in a more "typical tv show" sense (even Qarth has scenes that happen without Danny witnessing them directly, for example), not to mention the King's Landing or the Renly's camp which gets shown through numerous points of view - compare this to Harrenhall where we see only what Arya sees. Even Tywin's councils are shown only to the extent she sees them, and all other characters interact only with her. So that's most like the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 01, 2012, 11:59:13 PM
Agreed.

Yes, I said I wouldn't watch it anymore, sue me.  :blush:

That scene when she says "Anyone can be killed" and doesn't look away from Tywin: not in the book, but pretty freaking awesome.

Arya always was my favourite character, and so far the show hasn't ruined her.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 02, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
Renly :weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 02, 2012, 01:54:48 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
Renly :weep:
Should have bent the knee.  He bends both of them for Loras.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 02, 2012, 02:02:30 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 02, 2012, 01:54:48 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
Renly :weep:
He bends both of them for Loras.

Wasn't it the other way around?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 02, 2012, 01:54:48 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
Renly :weep:
Should have bent the knee.  He bends both of them for Loras.

Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2012, 07:00:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance.

He is Renly's older brother, so unless the strength of their claims is zero, his is greater.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 08:27:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance. 

A self-proclaimed lawyer arguing that inheritance laws are merely "serious sophistry?"  Say it ain't so!

If Joffrey and his sibs are not Robert's heirs, then Stannis is.

If you wanted to engage in serious sophistry, you could argue that Stannis had voided his claims by using sorcery to kill his brother, I suppose.  But that would be contrary to anything we know about the law of the land.  If Stannis is the rightful king, then Renly was in open rebellion against his rightful king, and Stannis was no more wrong for using sorcery to kill him than Aegon was for using sorcery (dragons) to kill Haren the Black.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 02, 2012, 08:35:22 AM
Dany is the one true Queen!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 02, 2012, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders

Well he is the only remaining pretender to the Iron Throne so I guess that is true.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 02, 2012, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders

Well he is the only remaining pretender to the Iron Throne so I guess that is true.
Daenarys is also a pretender to the Iron Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...
Not sure what your argument is, here.  Renly and Viserys, the other pretenders, died in the show so far.  Since neither Dany nor Stannis has no sibs (that we know of), that leaves those two as the remaining pretenders to the throne.

Surely we don't have to worry, in a discussion about the show, that there may be some people reading who haven't seen the show?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:54:46 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 08:27:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance. 

A self-proclaimed lawyer arguing that inheritance laws are merely "serious sophistry?"  Say it ain't so!

If Joffrey and his sibs are not Robert's heirs, then Stannis is.

If you wanted to engage in serious sophistry, you could argue that Stannis had voided his claims by using sorcery to kill his brother, I suppose.  But that would be contrary to anything we know about the law of the land.  If Stannis is the rightful king, then Renly was in open rebellion against his rightful king, and Stannis was no more wrong for using sorcery to kill him than Aegon was for using sorcery (dragons) to kill Haren the Black.

Gee, an ad hom in a discussion of fictional "law". Go fuck yourself and die already, you senile idiot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:58:26 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2012, 07:00:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance.

He is Renly's older brother, so unless the strength of their claims is zero, his is greater.

Don't Baratheons trace their claim from the fact that Orys Baratheon was a bastard son of a Targaryen? If so, then Robert has bastards that have a stronger claim than Stannis. ;)

Plus as others point out, Danaerys is the true Queen. Everyone else is an usurper with a more or less vaunted claim. Stannis's claim is only good within a very specific set of assumptions - which makes him just as bad as that of anyone else except Danaerys's, imo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
Martinus, why do you believe Stannis's claim to the throne is no stronger than the other's?  If we assume that the Baratheons are the rightful kings, Stannis has the strongest claim of anyone, including Renly.  If the Baratheons are not the rightful kings, then his claim is decidedly weaker than any other's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 02, 2012, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders

Well he is the only remaining pretender to the Iron Throne so I guess that is true.

How so? Unless you consider Joffrey not to be a pretender as he is the ruling King. But even then, there is also Danaerys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 11:02:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:58:26 AM
Don't Baratheons trace their claim from the fact that Orys Baratheon was a bastard son of a Targaryen? If so, then Robert has bastards that have a stronger claim than Stannis.

:huh:  This is a truly bizarre statement.  The Baratheons get their claim because they are descended from a Targaryen bastard (not true, necessarily, but I'll play along), so Robert's bastards have a stronger claim than Robert's true-born brother?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
Martinus, why do you believe Stannis's claim to the throne is no stronger than the other's?  If we assume that the Baratheons are the rightful kings, Stannis has the strongest claim of anyone, including Renly.  If the Baratheons are not the rightful kings, then his claim is decidedly weaker than any other's.

I don't see it, really - the Stannis's claim (ahead of Joffrey) is really based in the "ominscient reader" approach, which imo does not hold water in the reality of Westeros.

There are no DNA tests and since the dead King has never challenged his paternity of Joffrey and, presumably, Robert was actually fucking Cersei at the time Jaime was also fucking her, there is to me no legal way to challenge Joffrey's ancestry.

Sure, if Stannis wins his rebellion and usurps the throne, he "gets to" rewrite history, thus depriving Joffrey of his claim, but until then I can't see how Stannis's claim is stronger than anyone else's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 11:06:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:54:46 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 08:27:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance. 

A self-proclaimed lawyer arguing that inheritance laws are merely "serious sophistry?"  Say it ain't so!

If Joffrey and his sibs are not Robert's heirs, then Stannis is.

If you wanted to engage in serious sophistry, you could argue that Stannis had voided his claims by using sorcery to kill his brother, I suppose.  But that would be contrary to anything we know about the law of the land.  If Stannis is the rightful king, then Renly was in open rebellion against his rightful king, and Stannis was no more wrong for using sorcery to kill him than Aegon was for using sorcery (dragons) to kill Haren the Black.

Gee, an ad hom in a discussion of fictional "law". Go fuck yourself and die already, you senile idiot.

Not really an ad hom.  More of a Languish meme.  You proclaim yourself to be a lawyer but much of what you say denies any legal training.

Here for example, if you had any property or inheritance legal training which gave you even a small amount of knowledge you would have immediately recognized that your denial of Stannis' claim made no sense and you would not have clicked the post button.

Actually, all you really had to do was read the books to understand Stannis has the strongest claim (excluding Dani [spoiler] and perhaps others who resurrect in book 5[/spoiler]) and that is what motivates his self righteous attitude.

At the very least you have reinforced the meme - well done.

QuoteThere are no DNA tests and since the dead King has never challenged his paternity of Joffrey and, presumably, Robert was actually fucking Cersei at the time Jaime was also fucking her, there is to me no legal way to challenge Joffrey's ancestry

The books themselves set out all the evidence for why Joffrey is not the son of Robert.  Two Hands died because they learned the truth and by the time Robert dies it is an open secret known most importantly by Stannis.

Again, having you talk about "legal" ways to challenge simply reinforces the meme.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 02, 2012, 11:10:31 AM
The Baratheons are also descended from the Targaryens in a trueborn line. Robert's etc paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V. I'm pretty sure that's where they get their claim, as this branch is closest after the primary Targaryens (Dany etc).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Baratheon
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 11:13:17 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 02, 2012, 11:10:31 AM
The Baratheons are also descended from the Targaryens in a trueborn line. Robert's etc paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V. I'm pretty sure that's where they get their claim, as this branch is closest after the primary Targaryens (Dany etc).

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 02, 2012, 11:27:04 AM
Great, Marty falls into the pit of identity politics in a fictitious world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 11:30:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 02, 2012, 11:27:04 AM
Great, Marty falls into the pit of identity politics in a fictitious world.

He is blinded by cheering for the gay hero.  Even Renly acknowledged Stannis' stronger "legal" claim.  Renly's argument was that Stannis should give way because Renly had the larger army not the stronger claim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2012, 11:41:59 AM
My two big legal questions about Westerosi law are as follows.

1 - If you die and are resurrected are you still bound by your oath to the nights watch?

2 - What is the status of children born under a second marriage of a Targaryen. Are they legitimate?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 02, 2012, 11:54:10 AM
Stannis has the better claim and his smoke monster just averted a battle that would have cost thousands of lives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 02, 2012, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2012, 11:41:59 AM
My two big legal questions about Westerosi law are as follows.

1 - If you die and are resurrected are you still bound by your oath to the nights watch?

2 - What is the status of children born under a second marriage of a Targaryen. Are they legitimate?

Guesses:

1: No

2: Legit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 12:27:30 PM
QuoteNight gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

His watch ends with his death. He also pledges his life for all nights to come.  So, arguably, upon his death the obligation ends.



However he also pledges his honour for all nights to come.... :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 02, 2012, 12:43:23 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 02, 2012, 11:54:10 AM
Stannis has the better claim and his smoke monster just averted a battle that would have cost thousands of lives.

Just a delay in the taking of those lives. After all, he still has other enemies to contend against.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 02, 2012, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
How so? Unless you consider Joffrey not to be a pretender as he is the ruling King. But even then, there is also Danaerys.

Yeah I was talking about the War of the Five Kings.  Dany has not really staked her claim yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:48:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...
Not sure what your argument is, here.  Renly and Viserys, the other pretenders, died in the show so far.  Since neither Dany nor Stannis has no sibs (that we know of), that leaves those two as the remaining pretenders to the throne.

Surely we don't have to worry, in a discussion about the show, that there may be some people reading who haven't seen the show?
While technically not seeking the Iron throne for themselves, they are waging a war of rebellion against the current king Joffrey, presumably to either seek accomodations/independance or to install their own pupper ruler: Rob Stark and Greyjoy.  Also, King Joffrey is a prentender to the throne, given that his legitimacy is challenged by many.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 02, 2012, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 12:27:30 PM
QuoteNight gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

His watch ends with his death. He also pledges his life for all nights to come.  So, arguably, upon his death the obligation ends.



However he also pledges his honour for all nights to come.... :hmm:


Heh. I bet it didn't sound contradictory when they first wrote it.  :P

I just realized that when the crows kill wights, they aren't doing it because they are undead evil monstrosities out to slay them--they are doing their duty and executing oathbreakers.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 02, 2012, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:48:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...
Not sure what your argument is, here.  Renly and Viserys, the other pretenders, died in the show so far.  Since neither Dany nor Stannis has no sibs (that we know of), that leaves those two as the remaining pretenders to the throne.

Surely we don't have to worry, in a discussion about the show, that there may be some people reading who haven't seen the show?
While technically not seeking the Iron throne for themselves, they are waging a war of rebellion against the current king Joffrey, presumably to either seek accomodations/independance or to install their own pupper ruler: Rob Stark and Greyjoy.  Also, King Joffrey is a prentender to the throne, given that his legitimacy is challenged by many.

Neither of Stark or Greyjoy are pretenders. They aim for their own crowns, not the iron throne. Rob offered peace as long as the North was recognized as his.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 02, 2012, 12:49:21 PM
I just realized that when the crows kill wights, they aren't doing it because they are undead evil monstrosities out to slay them--they are doing their duty and executing oathbreakers.  :lol:

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2012, 11:41:59 AM
My two big legal questions about Westerosi law are as follows.

1 - If you die and are resurrected are you still bound by your oath to the nights watch?

2 - What is the status of children born under a second marriage of a Targaryen. Are they legitimate?
1- Depends if he actually dies or his simply mortally wounded but survives through use of magic or if he was never stabbed and this was a fake "nighwatch" man due to sorcery being employed (haven't read the 5th book yet).

2- So long as they were officially married, they are legit.  If they were bastards, they need to be legitimized by their father.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:53:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 12:50:47 PM
Neither of Stark or Greyjoy are pretenders. They aim for their own crowns, not the iron throne. Rob offered peace as long as the North was recognized as his.
Rob Stark will not accept peace without his 2 sisters and at least one of them can't be delivered to him.  And besides, he won't settle for peace when the Lannister army can invade the north again, with the full strenght of 6 remaining kingdoms.  He doesn't want the Iron throne, but he doesn't want Joffrey on it.

Greyjoy is seeking the same as Rob Stark, figuring the North is easier to defend than the south and hoping to invade the remaining of Westeros once everyone is bloodied after a long war of attrition.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 12:53:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:48:23 PM
While technically not seeking the Iron throne for themselves, they are waging a war of rebellion against the current king Joffrey, presumably to either seek accomodations/independance or to install their own pupper ruler: Rob Stark and Greyjoy.  Also, King Joffrey is a prentender to the throne, given that his legitimacy is challenged by many.

This is Martinus-level logic, at best.  If someone is "technically" not seeking the Iron Throne, then they aren't pretenders.  It's as simple as that.

King (says it right there in the title) Joffrey is currently King.  It is hardly possible to be a pretender to the throne you currently occupy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 12:57:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:53:31 PM
Rob Stark will not accept peace without his 2 sisters and at least one of them can't be delivered to him.  And besides, he won't settle for peace when the Lannister army can invade the north again, with the full strenght of 6 remaining kingdoms.  He doesn't want the Iron throne, but he doesn't want Joffrey on it.

Greyjoy is seeking the same as Rob Stark, figuring the North is easier to defend than the south and hoping to invade the remaining of Westeros once everyone is bloodied after a long war of attrition.

Robb doesn't know that one of them can't be delivered to them.  Having his sisters delivered back to him, safely, is hardly an onerous peace condition.  I think the novels actually do show that he would settle for peace even if Joffrey is on the throne--what they want is independence, not to topple the king.  If Joffrey were to wait until he could "invade the north again, with the full strength of 6 remaining kingdoms" after having signed a treaty to allow the North to go free, I find it highly likely that many of his lords would simply refuse such an order.

Greyjoy is, in fact, seeking nearly the same as Robb.  He wants independence.  On top of that, though, he wants to continue pillaging the countryside.  What he doesn't want to do, however, is "invade" anything.  It's made very clear that the Iron Islands perhaps want some more territory here and there, but they aren't out to do more than take some islands or grab portions of the North/Riverlands from their neighbors.  It's hardly necessary to "invade the remaining of Westeros" to do that and preposterous that he would seek to do so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 01:00:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:54:46 AM
Gee, an ad hom in a discussion of fictional "law". Go fuck yourself and die already, you senile idiot.

Gee, someone who doesn't know what an ad hom is and also doesn't know how to make an intellectual argument!  Why isn't it surprising that the lackwit in both cases is the same person.  :lol:

Every personal insult you make just weakens your case, you know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 12:27:30 PM
QuoteNight gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

His watch ends with his death. He also pledges his life for all nights to come.  So, arguably, upon his death the obligation ends.



However he also pledges his honour for all nights to come.... :hmm:

So you answer is, in true lawyerly fashion, "it depends on who my client is" ?  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:58:26 AM
Plus as others point out, Danaerys is the true Queen. Everyone else is an usurper with a more or less vaunted claim. Stannis's claim is only good within a very specific set of assumptions - which makes him just as bad as that of anyone else except Danaerys's, imo.
Danaerys comes from a line of foreign conquerors who have ruled in Westeros for a mere 300 years. What makes her claim any less vaunted than the others?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 02, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
This is why power is an illusion, a shadow on the wall. It resides in a mandate from the masses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 02, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
This is why power is an illusion, a shadow on the wall. It resides in a mandate from the masses.
What if a moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 01:14:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 12:27:30 PM
QuoteNight gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

His watch ends with his death. He also pledges his life for all nights to come.  So, arguably, upon his death the obligation ends.



However he also pledges his honour for all nights to come.... :hmm:

So you answer is, in true lawyerly fashion, "it depends on who my client is" ?  :lol:

More correctly there is ample room for interpretation and therefore litigation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 02, 2012, 01:18:26 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2012, 10:58:26 AM
Plus as others point out, Danaerys is the true Queen. Everyone else is an usurper with a more or less vaunted claim. Stannis's claim is only good within a very specific set of assumptions - which makes him just as bad as that of anyone else except Danaerys's, imo.
Danaerys comes from a line of foreign conquerors who have ruled in Westeros for a mere 300 years. What makes her claim any less vaunted than the others?

300 isn't really that mere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2012, 01:23:38 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2012, 11:41:59 AM
My two big legal questions about Westerosi law are as follows.

1 - If you die and are resurrected are you still bound by your oath to the nights watch?

2 - What is the status of children born under a second marriage of a Targaryen. Are they legitimate?
1- Depends if he actually dies or his simply mortally wounded but survives through use of magic or if he was never stabbed and this was a fake "nighwatch" man due to sorcery being employed (haven't read the 5th book yet).
[spoiler]Jon gets murdered "Murder on the Orient Express/Julius Caesar" style. Kevan gets murdered by Varys. A Feast of Freys are feasted on by the new Warden of the North in Pie form. The Tyrells are attempting to conspire for the return of Dany. A Targaryen is conjured out of thin air and invades the Stormlands. Bran meets the three eyed crow and the children of the forest. Wyman Manderley becomes my new favorite character by means of his über Stark loyalty and Mustela Pie.[/spoiler]
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:51:31 PM
2- So long as they were officially married, they are legit.  If they were bastards, they need to be legitimized by their father.

In this case I'm referring to a Postumus child with, for the time being, no record or witness to the marriage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 02, 2012, 01:48:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 02, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
This is why power is an illusion, a shadow on the wall. It resides in a mandate from the masses.
What if a moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at you?

Come see the violence inherant in the system.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 01:18:26 PM
300 isn't really that mere.
It is compared to the lifespans of some of the great houses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 02, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 01:18:26 PM
300 isn't really that mere.
It is compared to the lifespans of some of the great houses.

What human can take the perspective of a great house? For most individuals that's a fairly entrenched dynasty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 01:18:26 PM
300 isn't really that mere.
It is compared to the lifespans of some of the great houses.

What human can take the perspective of a great house? For most individuals that's a fairly entrenched dynasty.

Since most people in the Books think in terms of their houses it isnt entrenched at all.  In fact so much so that it fell to a rebellion. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 02, 2012, 02:40:43 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 01:18:26 PM
300 isn't really that mere.
It is compared to the lifespans of some of the great houses.

However, these houses seem to die out very easily as soon as the chips are down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2012, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 02, 2012, 02:40:43 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 02, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 01:18:26 PM
300 isn't really that mere.
It is compared to the lifespans of some of the great houses.

However, these houses seem to die out very easily as soon as the chips are down.

:huh:

House Stark lasted for how long and the chips were down how many times for them before that?

The Book takes place during rather apocolyptic times.  That is hardly houses dying out "very easily".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 02:48:43 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2012, 01:23:38 PM
[spoiler]Jon gets murdered "Murder on the Orient Express/Julius Caesar" style.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
that I know, people already talked about it 100 pages ago...
What I don't know is if he was really murdered, or if it was someone else disguised as him.  There's one guy at least that I know who was witnessed burning while in fact it wasn't him.  Also, it isn't the first time we're told someone got killed and it wasn't actually him/her.

Whether or not Jon survives this attack is currently unknown.

I guess I won't know until the 6th book.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2012, 02:52:00 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 02:48:43 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 02, 2012, 01:23:38 PM
[spoiler]Jon gets murdered "Murder on the Orient Express/Julius Caesar" style.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
that I know, people already talked about it 100 pages ago...
What I don't know is if he was really murdered, or if it was someone else disguised as him.  There's one guy at least that I know who was witnessed burning while in fact it wasn't him.  Also, it isn't the first time we're told someone got killed and it wasn't actually him/her.

Whether or not Jon survives this attack is currently unknown.

I guess I won't know until the 6th book.[/spoiler]

It happened in his own POV chapter. He saw it happen to himself. Unless he warged into somebody else's body and the nights watch decided that it was appropriate to collectively ritually murder.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 02, 2012, 06:33:28 PM
Casting for season 3 starts, let the rumors begin!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/casting-for-season-three-begins/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2012, 06:45:06 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 02, 2012, 06:33:28 PM
Casting for season 3 starts, let the rumors begin!

Did you audition for Daario?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2012, 07:30:08 PM
I figured he'd audition for Doran Martell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2012, 07:49:48 PM
QuoteAnother role that is rumored to be currently casting is Daario Naharis. And, according to someone who has seen the casting breakdown, the producers are looking for "any ethnicity, except Caucasian".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 02, 2012, 07:56:26 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2012, 07:49:48 PM
QuoteAnother role that is rumored to be currently casting is Daario Naharis. And, according to someone who has seen the casting breakdown, the producers are looking for "any ethnicity, except Caucasian".

I'm no stinkin' georgian, chechen, ingush or azeri.. maybe I'll try out for the part... I'd be willing to grow a goatee and dye it blue...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2012, 03:27:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 02, 2012, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 12:48:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2012, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...
Not sure what your argument is, here.  Renly and Viserys, the other pretenders, died in the show so far.  Since neither Dany nor Stannis has no sibs (that we know of), that leaves those two as the remaining pretenders to the throne.

Surely we don't have to worry, in a discussion about the show, that there may be some people reading who haven't seen the show?
While technically not seeking the Iron throne for themselves, they are waging a war of rebellion against the current king Joffrey, presumably to either seek accomodations/independance or to install their own pupper ruler: Rob Stark and Greyjoy.  Also, King Joffrey is a prentender to the throne, given that his legitimacy is challenged by many.

Neither of Stark or Greyjoy are pretenders. They aim for their own crowns, not the iron throne. Rob offered peace as long as the North was recognized as his.

Yeah. Stannis is waging a rebellion with "Claim the title of King of Seven Kingdoms" as a CB. Both Starks and Greyjoys are waging a rebellion with the "Independence" CB (technically, Starks could also be waging a war to "Depose King Joffrey").
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 03, 2012, 11:32:45 PM
Been away tthis week so just saw the last episode.
I'm worried. The Iron Men are coming for Winterfell but we've yet to have much happen there....cutting the Frey wars- fair enough. But no Jonen and the other one? They're pretty vital...is Osha going to take over for them? What of Rickon?
Seems they're really diverging from the books now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 07, 2012, 03:54:47 PM
Looks like a 'shit hits the fan' episode.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 07, 2012, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2012, 11:32:45 PM
Been away tthis week so just saw the last episode.
I'm worried. The Iron Men are coming for Winterfell but we've yet to have much happen there....cutting the Frey wars- fair enough. But no Jonen and the other one? They're pretty vital...is Osha going to take over for them? What of Rickon?
Seems they're really diverging from the books now.
I really don't know how they're going to replace them.  There weren't any Frey hostage either, and Bolton's bastard has yet to be introduced as a psycho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 07, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
I'm sort of hoping that they'll meet up with the Reeds when they are on the run outside of Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 07, 2012, 07:51:58 PM
I hope they streamline Daenerys story a bit. It's so drawn out and boring at times. "I think I'll sit in my city this entire book and day dream about this blue haired fucker with a gold tooth."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 07, 2012, 09:02:41 PM
So, are all of Dany's followers now dead?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 07, 2012, 09:20:40 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
I'm sort of hoping that they'll meet up with the Reeds when they are on the run outside of Winterfell.
they did cut a fair amount of content, so maybe there's room for them.

I wonder how they'll introduce Bolton's bastard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 07, 2012, 09:45:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 07, 2012, 09:20:40 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
I'm sort of hoping that they'll meet up with the Reeds when they are on the run outside of Winterfell.
they did cut a fair amount of content, so maybe there's room for them.

I wonder how they'll introduce Bolton's bastard.
He'll take Winterfell and make Theon his bitch
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 07, 2012, 09:56:00 PM
Who lives in the giant tower?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2012, 01:10:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 07, 2012, 09:56:00 PM
Who lives in the giant tower?

The most popular guess seems to be it's the House of the Undying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2012, 01:15:47 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
I'm sort of hoping that they'll meet up with the Reeds when they are on the run outside of Winterfell.

I don't think they will. This show is already juggling dozens of new characters that people have hard time keeping track of. The whole Bran's escape from Winterfell was to me one of the most boring series of chapters in the books (along with anything involving Sansa) so I don't believe they devote more than 2-3 perfunctory scenes to it. Makes no sense to introduce two completely new characters just for that, especially as Osha serves the narrative purpose of "link to the Wild" just as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2012, 01:19:49 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 07, 2012, 07:51:58 PM
I hope they streamline Daenerys story a bit. It's so drawn out and boring at times. "I think I'll sit in my city this entire book and day dream about this blue haired fucker with a gold tooth."

It seems this is what they are doing and I like it. When I was reading the books it felt like Tyrion's chapters were the most interesting, Sansa's and Bran's most boring, and Danny's ones depended on whether she was killing people and getting mad or just brooding. It seems the show recognizes that and deliberately ignores or streamlines boring story arcs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 08, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
Osha helping Bran to escape and knowing about green seers and all that works just as well as the Reeds.
The problems there though are:

1: Rickon and his wolf is with Bran. Changes Bran's voyage north quite a bit and what of Rickon's voyage south? The book has yet to make much of it but they are heading that way.
2: Wasn't it through the Reeds that the sstory of Rhaegar and the mystery knight and all that starts to come out? This is what is going to reveal Jon's linneage eventually IMO.

They're really heading off down a totally different path to the books here.
Which...I don't mind really. I already know the plot of the books which I think hinders my enjoyment of the series a little (though adds to it in other ways)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 08, 2012, 03:29:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 08, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
Osha helping Bran to escape and knowing about green seers and all that works just as well as the Reeds.
The problems there though are:

1: Rickon and his wolf is with Bran. Changes Bran's voyage north quite a bit and what of Rickon's voyage south? The book has yet to make much of it but they are heading that way.
2: Wasn't it through the Reeds that the sstory of Rhaegar and the mystery knight and all that starts to come out? This is what is going to reveal Jon's linneage eventually IMO.

They're really heading off down a totally different path to the books here.
Which...I don't mind really. I already know the plot of the books which I think hinders my enjoyment of the series a little (though adds to it in other ways)

Plus davos + manderley is a big plot point at the end of the last book. For that to happen Rickon needs to go off on his own to someplace annoying, wet and distant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 08, 2012, 03:38:08 AM
Roz the wandering whore to the rescue?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Faeelin on May 08, 2012, 08:38:09 AM
Perhaps Rickon is actually dead in GoT, and they'll just move it up.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2012, 04:57:08 PM
Incidentally, I think Lilly Allen's "Fuck You" could be Theon's theme song (and she could play Asha). I mean:

"Fuck you, fuck you very, very much
'Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Do you get, do you get a little kick
Out of being small minded?
You want to be like your father
It's approval you're after
Well, that's not how you find it

Do you, do you really enjoy
Living a life that's so hateful?
'Cause there's a hole where your soul should be
You're losing control a bit
And it's really distasteful

Fuck you, fuck you very, very much
'Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
Fuck you

You say you think we need to go to war
Well, you're already in one
'Cause it's people like you that need to get slew
No one wants your opinion"

:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 08, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
Enjoyed this episode quite a bit, and think the story is going the right direction in ignoring vast chunks of the book that, honestly, a good editor would have cut from the written version. Obviously, a TV series has to take shortcuts, but this series is making the right ones.

[spoiler]The Freys seem to be entirely absent.  That would be a pity if this continues.  The continuing fucking-over of the Freys is the best part of the later books[/spoiler]

I continue to be impressed by the acting, as well.  Tyrion gets so many great lines, and Peter Dinklage does so well with them, that I wouldn't be surprised at this point to find out that he is gay.

I just struck the King!  Has my hand fallen off?  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2012, 05:20:35 PM
Quote
[spoiler]The Freys seem to be entirely absent.  That would be a pity if this continues.  The continuing fucking-over of the Freys is the best part of the later books[/spoiler]

Don't they only get fucked over after [spoiler]the Red Wedding[/spoiler]?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 08, 2012, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 08, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
Osha helping Bran to escape and knowing about green seers and all that works just as well as the Reeds.
The problems there though are:

1: Rickon and his wolf is with Bran. Changes Bran's voyage north quite a bit and what of Rickon's voyage south? The book has yet to make much of it but they are heading that way.
2: Wasn't it through the Reeds that the sstory of Rhaegar and the mystery knight and all that starts to come out? This is what is going to reveal Jon's linneage eventually IMO.

They're really heading off down a totally different path to the books here.
Which...I don't mind really. I already know the plot of the books which I think hinders my enjoyment of the series a little (though adds to it in other ways)

I think missing the Reeds is a mistake, and not just because Osha appears to be a goofy Gollum-wannabe always walking around hunched over with her head lolling back and forth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 08, 2012, 07:04:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 08, 2012, 04:57:08 PM
Incidentally, I think Lilly Allen's "Fuck You" could be Theon's theme song (and she could play Asha). I mean:

"Fuck you, fuck you very, very much
'Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Do you get, do you get a little kick
Out of being small minded?
You want to be like your father
It's approval you're after
Well, that's not how you find it

Do you, do you really enjoy
Living a life that's so hateful?
'Cause there's a hole where your soul should be
You're losing control a bit
And it's really distasteful

Fuck you, fuck you very, very much
'Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
Fuck you

You say you think we need to go to war
Well, you're already in one
'Cause it's people like you that need to get slew
No one wants your opinion"

:P

You do know that Alfie Allen already has a theme song?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2012, 07:17:15 PM
The Reeds (along with Edmure and Brenden the Blackfish) are nowhere to be found in this season and that's all-but confirmed.  There is a very high likelihood that all of them have simply been pushed back to the third season.  Jojen and Meera are absolutely necessary to the storyline, I think, because they provide a needed connection to their father and, as Tyr pointed out, certain pieces of the legend that will complete the plot.

It's possible that they could write the characters out entirely, but now that Bran and his group are escaping, there's no reason to have those two around until they start heading elsewhere--IE, next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 08, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2012, 05:20:35 PM
Don't they only get fucked over after (snip)
They appeared in the books from nearly the start.  They appear in the series nowhere at all.  That's worrisome to a reader who enjoyed seeing them get fucked over more than anything else in the series.  The Fucking of the Freys is more enjoyable than the fucking of anyone else, even Shae.

I can live with that decision, if that decision has been made for the TV series, but I'd regret it more than the elimination of the Reeds, if that is what happens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 08, 2012, 07:28:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 08, 2012, 07:04:02 PM
You do know that Alfie Allen already has a theme song?

Speaking of theme songs, i enjoy the theme song to this series nearly as much as the (changed every season) theme to Babylon 5.  I don't go do something else while the opening credits to this show roll, which is something unusual for me.  Not sure just why, but the opening credits and theme are very compelling.  It may just be that you don't want them to sneak in a new location without you noticing, but I watch from start to finish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2012, 07:33:08 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 08, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2012, 05:20:35 PM
Don't they only get fucked over after (snip)
They appeared in the books from nearly the start.  They appear in the series nowhere at all.  That's worrisome to a reader who enjoyed seeing them get fucked over more than anything else in the series.  The Fucking of the Freys is more enjoyable than the fucking of anyone else, even Shae.

I can live with that decision, if that decision has been made for the TV series, but I'd regret it more than the elimination of the Reeds, if that is what happens.

I think it would be a shame if they didn't continue to insert them into the series, but the reminder from Catelyn to Robb this week about the marriage contract is at least a small step in the direction of making them important.  Considering the preview clips, I suspect we'll hear more about the Freys soon enough.

I also have hopes that we'll see a good amount more of them in season 3, due to the way the season will likely end.  It wouldn't have quite the punch if they didn't go to some length to develop the Freys, after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2012, 07:39:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 08, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 08, 2012, 05:20:35 PM
Don't they only get fucked over after (snip)
They appeared in the books from nearly the start.  They appear in the series nowhere at all.  That's worrisome to a reader who enjoyed seeing them get fucked over more than anything else in the series.  The Fucking of the Freys is more enjoyable than the fucking of anyone else, even Shae.

I can live with that decision, if that decision has been made for the TV series, but I'd regret it more than the elimination of the Reeds, if that is what happens.
The Freys were and introduced, and since [spoiler]they are the pivotal players in the Red Wedding disaster surely that will be enough to inspire hatred for them and schadenfreude for their coming misfortunes. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2012, 07:40:52 PM
Introduced, certainly, but not fleshed out.  It'll be better if we see them a few more times before the end of season 3.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 08, 2012, 10:42:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 08, 2012, 03:21:33 AM
They're really heading off down a totally different path to the books here.
Which...I don't mind really. I already know the plot of the books which I think hinders my enjoyment of the series a little (though adds to it in other ways)

I enjoyed the episode.  That was partly due to the fact that they have deviated so far from the books that I look at it as its own story now. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 08, 2012, 11:32:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 08, 2012, 10:42:50 PM
I enjoyed the episode.  That was partly due to the fact that they have deviated so far from the books that I look at it as its own story now. 

It'll be interesting to see if they keep anything of the same tone/theme or if it'll take an entirely different approach. I agree that with this most recent episode the deviations have finally reached a point where a different story is emerging.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 09, 2012, 12:58:42 AM
I don't really care what happens south of the Wall beyond a vain hope that the aristocratic class will be wiped out. I would, however, watch a series focusing exclusively on the Night's Watch, perhaps called 'Ice Wall Trekkers' or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2012, 04:49:55 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 08, 2012, 07:33:08 PM
to insert them into the series, but the reminder from Catelyn to Robb this week about the marriage contract is at least a small step in the direction of making them important.  Considering the preview clips, I suspect we'll hear more about the Freys soon enough.

I also have hopes that we'll see a good amount more of them in season 3, due to the way the season will likely end.  It wouldn't have quite the punch if they didn't go to some length to develop the Freys, after all.

I may be over-remembering the number of Freys with Robb in the campaign now being shown.  My memory is that there was a mess of them, and that some became close friends.  Maybe that's just not quite true, though.

But you are right; there is plenty of time for the Frey part of the story to develop.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2012, 04:51:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 08, 2012, 11:32:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 08, 2012, 10:42:50 PM
I enjoyed the episode.  That was partly due to the fact that they have deviated so far from the books that I look at it as its own story now. 

It'll be interesting to see if they keep anything of the same tone/theme or if it'll take an entirely different approach. I agree that with this most recent episode the deviations have finally reached a point where a different story is emerging.

I don't see that at all.  The story is in a different medium, but I don't see significant changes in the story at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 09, 2012, 07:06:28 AM
I did not like the last episode, it was a boring mess except for the parts in Kings Landing.

Ygritte looks way too clean and Jon Snow is that much of an idiot?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2012, 07:34:15 AM
Rory McCann amazing audition for the Sandor Clegane role. How could they leave this scene out!?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIWX2fPx-5k

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 09, 2012, 08:23:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 09, 2012, 07:06:28 AM
I did not like the last episode, it was a boring mess except for the parts in Kings Landing.

Ygritte looks way too clean and Jon Snow is that much of an idiot?

He's a 14 17 year old boy from the North. Of course he's an idiot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 09, 2012, 08:32:10 AM
How am I suppose to know that? They casted a someone who looks like he's 30.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2012, 08:35:17 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 09, 2012, 08:32:10 AM
How am I suppose to know that? They casted a someone who looks like he's 30.

I don't think that you should lets facts stand in the way of your opinions.  If you think Snow is an idiot, his age doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 09, 2012, 08:38:43 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2012, 04:51:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 08, 2012, 11:32:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 08, 2012, 10:42:50 PM
I enjoyed the episode.  That was partly due to the fact that they have deviated so far from the books that I look at it as its own story now. 

It'll be interesting to see if they keep anything of the same tone/theme or if it'll take an entirely different approach. I agree that with this most recent episode the deviations have finally reached a point where a different story is emerging.

I don't see that at all.  The story is in a different medium, but I don't see significant changes in the story at all.

The characters are beginning to diverge sharply that it seems that it may be hard to fit the characters they have into the same story.  Plots seem to be swirling about as well though I can understand some of it as a way keeping the show spritely and glossing over unnecessary bits of the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2012, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 09, 2012, 08:38:43 AM
The characters are beginning to diverge sharply that it seems that it may be hard to fit the characters they have into the same story.  Plots seem to be swirling about as well though I can understand some of it as a way keeping the show spritely and glossing over unnecessary bits of the book.

The medium demands a minimum of characters, so many characters have to do double or triple duty.  That doesn't seem to be changing the story itself, yet.  I could be missing something, though; can you give me some examples of characters that you don't see fitting into the (book series) story any more?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2012, 10:42:35 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 08, 2012, 07:40:52 PM
Introduced, certainly, but not fleshed out.  It'll be better if we see them a few more times before the end of season 3.
IIRC, we see the Freys fleshed out only after the Red Wedding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2012, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2012, 04:49:55 AM
I may be over-remembering the number of Freys with Robb in the campaign now being shown.  My memory is that there was a mess of them, and that some became close friends.  Maybe that's just not quite true, though.

But you are right; there is plenty of time for the Frey part of the story to develop.
[spoiler]It is said some became close friends with Rob, one who died, one who was absent from the Red Wedding.  Other than that, a few words from Robb's mother, that's all.

[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2012, 10:46:18 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 09, 2012, 12:58:42 AM
I don't really care what happens south of the Wall beyond a vain hope that the aristocratic class will be wiped out. I would, however, watch a series focusing exclusively on the Night's Watch, perhaps called 'Ice Wall Trekkers' or something.

Yeah, the exploits at the wall became my favourite part of the books.  Probably because it was the one location where the story lines didnt become hopelessly lost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2012, 06:04:10 PM
GoT is #1!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/05/09/hbos-game-of-thrones-on-track-to-be-crowned-most-pirated-show-of-2012/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 09, 2012, 06:27:56 PM
HBO really needs to restructure their revenue model...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2012, 07:14:53 PM
when I started watching this show, I went to my cable provider's web site to watch it on-line.  The quality was awful.  480p at most.
So I ended up downloading the torrents for the first 4 episodes.  In HD format that was decent to look at.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 09, 2012, 07:27:49 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 09, 2012, 06:27:56 PM
HBO really needs to restructure their revenue model...

This explains the situation pretty well

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/05/09/hbo-has-only-itself-to-blame-for-record-game-of-thrones-piracy/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 01:28:03 AM
The question is, does mass piracy really affect their bottom-line? In the overwhelming majority of cases, people pirate TV shows because they cannot get them legally, or because they cannot afford them anyway, or because they want to try it out before they commit to buying it and realize they don't really like it. Provided that the show is good and the producer's business model is not to dupe people into buying shit (HBO's isn't - that's more of a m.o. of failed "blockbusters") each of these groups is likely to become a paying customer down the line, and the earlier piracy simply creates viewer loyalty to the series.

I wonder when media companies will finally realize that the world has moved on and they need to change their business model.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 10, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 01:28:03 AM
The question is, does mass piracy really affect their bottom-line? In the overwhelming majority of cases, people pirate TV shows because they cannot get them legally, or because they cannot afford them anyway, or because they want to try it out before they commit to buying it and realize they don't really like it. Provided that the show is good and the producer's business model is not to dupe people into buying shit (HBO's isn't - that's more of a m.o. of failed "blockbusters") each of these groups is likely to become a paying customer down the line, and the earlier piracy simply creates viewer loyalty to the series.

I wonder when media companies will finally realize that the world has moved on and they need to change their business model.

Do you have anything to back that up, cause I don't think that's the case at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 10, 2012, 07:19:59 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 10, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 01:28:03 AM
The question is, does mass piracy really affect their bottom-line? In the overwhelming majority of cases, people pirate TV shows because they cannot get them legally, or because they cannot afford them anyway, or because they want to try it out before they commit to buying it and realize they don't really like it. Provided that the show is good and the producer's business model is not to dupe people into buying shit (HBO's isn't - that's more of a m.o. of failed "blockbusters") each of these groups is likely to become a paying customer down the line, and the earlier piracy simply creates viewer loyalty to the series.

I wonder when media companies will finally realize that the world has moved on and they need to change their business model.

Do you have anything to back that up, cause I don't think that's the case at all.

Most comments on reddits Game of Thrones threads reflect has much. None subscribe to HBO but most buy the Blurays.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2012, 07:20:55 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 10, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
Do you have anything to back that up, cause I don't think that's the case at all.


he used to pirate it, then saw an HBO Go ad in The Advocate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 10, 2012, 07:24:36 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 10, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 01:28:03 AM
The question is, does mass piracy really affect their bottom-line? In the overwhelming majority of cases, people pirate TV shows because they cannot get them legally, or because they cannot afford them anyway, or because they want to try it out before they commit to buying it and realize they don't really like it. Provided that the show is good and the producer's business model is not to dupe people into buying shit (HBO's isn't - that's more of a m.o. of failed "blockbusters") each of these groups is likely to become a paying customer down the line, and the earlier piracy simply creates viewer loyalty to the series.

I wonder when media companies will finally realize that the world has moved on and they need to change their business model.

Do you have anything to back that up, cause I don't think that's the case at all.

Which group do you think won't produce any paying customers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 10, 2012, 07:50:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 09, 2012, 07:06:28 AM
I did not like the last episode, it was a boring mess except for the parts in Kings Landing.

Ygritte looks way too clean and Jon Snow is that much of an idiot?
I'm shouting "You know nothing Jon Snow!!!!!!" every time Ygritt opens he mouth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 10, 2012, 01:03:56 PM
So i've been reading the series. The 4th book just meanders a lot. Is the 5th one even worth getting?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 10, 2012, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 10, 2012, 01:03:56 PM
So i've been reading the series. The 4th book just meanders a lot. Is the 5th one even worth getting?

It gets better in the 5th book. 4th = LOLWTF
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 10, 2012, 01:10:24 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 10, 2012, 01:03:56 PM
So i've been reading the series. The 4th book just meanders a lot. Is the 5th one even worth getting?

The 5th is better than the 4th but yeah they probably could have been combined into one book with decent editing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 02:55:53 PM
I'm surprised some people don't like the last episode - I thought it was one of the best if not the best of the series. Most reviewers agree with me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2012, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 02:55:53 PM
I'm surprised some people don't like the last episode - I thought it was one of the best if not the best of the series. Most reviewers agree with me.

More importantly: I agree with you, too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 10, 2012, 03:22:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 10, 2012, 02:55:53 PM
I'm surprised some people don't like the last episode - I thought it was one of the best if not the best of the series. Most reviewers agree with me.

I came away from it not caring about any of the characters except Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 10, 2012, 03:49:49 PM
I'll feel better about it once I get confirmation that the "Volantene" girl in Robb's camp is actually Jeyne Westerling in disguise, and they aren't going to throw in a "marrying a commoner" cliche.

Also, lacking Meera and Jojen is not so good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 10, 2012, 04:22:46 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 10, 2012, 03:49:49 PM
I'll feel better about it once I get confirmation that the "Volantene" girl in Robb's camp is actually Jeyne Westerling in disguise, and they aren't going to throw in a "marrying a commoner" cliche.

Also, lacking Meera and Jojen is not so good.

I think they are trying to reduce the exposition needed  to explain that [spoiler]maggie the frog married a spicer who's daughter married a westerling who's daughter is jeyne westerling[/spoiler].

Meera and Jojen might be introduced after the escape when bran, rickon, hodor and osha enter a swamp. They do need somebody to take rickon to the place that [spoiler]wyman manderley needs a smuggler to get to[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2012, 04:39:46 PM
The fifth book meanders quite abit as well, but at least has several scenes to make up for it.  As stated, though, good editing couldv've condensed them to a single, large work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 13, 2012, 03:32:36 PM
Something I noticed in the previous episode - Jaqen refers to the Red God rather than the Faceless God. Does this mean they are going to conflate the two?

Also, I loved the Tywin & Arya scenes. Amory Lorch's entrance was hilarious. :menace:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on May 13, 2012, 03:34:41 PM
Gemma Whelan (Asha/ Yara) looks like she's related to Russell Crowe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2012, 05:56:49 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 13, 2012, 03:32:36 PM
Something I noticed in the previous episode - Jaqen refers to the Red God rather than the Faceless God. Does this mean they are going to conflate the two?

Also, I loved the Tywin & Arya scenes. Amory Lorch's entrance was hilarious. :menace:
I think he did that in the book. He didn't talk about the faceless god until later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 14, 2012, 11:53:13 AM
So the "mystery" nurse is indeed Jeyne Westerling.  Nice :)  I understand why he'd pick her instead of a Frey girl :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 14, 2012, 02:56:16 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFyt93.png&hash=e35afc90cf97a91743bf51af72948157dfcf8ee4)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2012, 03:27:56 PM
Im really loving Arya and Ygritte. These girls have spunk. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
Wow, a powerful episode. I really like the women of this story. Most of the men, on the other hand, are just boys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 14, 2012, 05:18:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
Wow, a powerful episode. I really like the women of this story. Most of the men, on the other hand, are just boys.

Kinda like all advertising. You ever notice that? The guys are always doofuses who really should listen to their wives. It's a sexist industry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 14, 2012, 05:24:10 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 14, 2012, 05:18:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
Wow, a powerful episode. I really like the women of this story. Most of the men, on the other hand, are just boys.

Kinda like all advertising. You ever notice that? The guys are always doofuses who really should listen to their wives. It's a sexist industry.
Wives buy household shit, on average. make them feel good and they'll but your shit :lol:

As for the episode, meh. Seemed weak to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 14, 2012, 02:56:16 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFyt93.png&hash=e35afc90cf97a91743bf51af72948157dfcf8ee4)

Which characters are they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 14, 2012, 08:13:20 PM
The cute one is Ygritte, the other is Theon's sister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2012, 03:01:23 AM
Hm, this was probably the weakest episode so far, while the previous one was maybe the best. Big contrast.

What I don't geti:
-why is Jon captured like that? Would have been cool for him to kill the one-armed fellow. Supposedly that act was in the trailer.

-if they are merging Quarth and the city with the Unsullied (which makes perfect sense, I didnt remember they were different, actually), where are the Unsullied? isnt it high time to introduce them?

-Jaime's escape scene was retarded, it wasnt necessary to kill that guy for itt

I like Ygritte though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2012, 03:43:41 AM
Yeah, I didn't get Jaime's escape at all....

And they're merging Qarth and the unsullied city? Really? That seems...weird to me....I don't see that they're going down that road at all, they've just extended Qarth so a bit more happens there.

Too pretty thing: really? People are complaining about Asha and Ygrette?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 15, 2012, 06:27:22 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 14, 2012, 08:13:20 PM
The cute one is Ygritte, the other is Theon's sister.

Asha is uglier than Brienne.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2012, 06:38:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2012, 03:01:23 AM
Hm, this was probably the weakest episode so far, while the previous one was maybe the best. Big contrast.
Agree.  Way too much talking to little point in this episode.  Dani's visit to the House of the Undying should definitely have taken place in this episode, just to give it some spice and action.

QuoteWhat I don't geti:
-why is Jon captured like that? Would have been cool for him to kill the one-armed fellow. Supposedly that act was in the trailer.
The only thing I can think of is budget.  maybe they have something expensive they need to save up for.

Quote-if they are merging Quarth and the city with the Unsullied (which makes perfect sense, I didnt remember they were different, actually), where are the Unsullied? isnt it high time to introduce them?

My impression was that the unsullied came later in the series (book 3?).  Agree that there seems no reason to have Danerys go to another city indistinguishable from the one she is in.

Quote-Jaime's escape scene was retarded, it wasnt necessary to kill that guy for itt

True.  The first bit of ham-handed writing in the series, I thought.  The whole escape thing was implausible and unnecessary, [spoiler]though it does set up Catelyn Stark to be the one to amputate his hand.[/spoiler]

QuoteI like Ygritte though.

I thought those scenes were unnecessarily long and repetitive, like most of the scenes in this episode. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 15, 2012, 09:04:39 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2012, 06:38:56 AM[spoiler]though it does set up Catelyn Stark to be the one to amputate his hand.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Fuck, this might mean we have no goat, no bear and the maiden "fair", obviously no amory lorch dancing with the same bear and apparently no weasle soup.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 15, 2012, 09:14:32 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 15, 2012, 09:04:39 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2012, 06:38:56 AM[spoiler]though it does set up Catelyn Stark to be the one to amputate his hand.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]the maiden "fair",.[/spoiler]
I'm 99% sure we'll get that next season. [spoiler]The Reeds and the Tully's can be pushed back to next season without causing any major changes.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 15, 2012, 12:44:05 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2012, 03:01:23 AM
-Jaime's escape scene was retarded, it wasnt necessary to kill that guy for itt

I like Ygritte though.
That's kind of Jaime's MO, though.  Flashy, brutal, and not always extremely sensible.  He's kind of a Drag queen version of Sandor Clegane at this point. 

I think the last two episodes might be the best in the series.  The coup in Qarth was an extremely memorable scene, and I think they are handling Theon's decline very well.  I also love the motif for it-the piece of music at the end of the episode is positively terrifying. 

Also, the scene with Tywinn and Arya was wonderful. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 15, 2012, 12:44:05 PM
Also, the scene with Tywinn and Arya was wonderful.
I have come to like Charles Dance's acting (and the writing for his role) quite a bit.  He is a much more believable character than the Tywin in the book
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 15, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 15, 2012, 12:44:05 PM
Also, the scene with Tywinn and Arya was wonderful.
I have come to like Charles Dance's acting (and the writing for his role) quite a bit.  He is a much more believable character than the Tywin in the book
Even the girls acting is well done.

Any Cerci scenes annoy me. not sure if it's the acting or the character herself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 15, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Any Cerci scenes annoy me. not sure if it's the acting or the character herself.

The character is pretty awful, i.e one-dimensional.  She is basically there to be a foil for more authorially preferred characters like Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 15, 2012, 05:21:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 15, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Any Cerci scenes annoy me. not sure if it's the acting or the character herself.

The character is pretty awful, i.e one-dimensional.  She is basically there to be a foil for more authorially preferred characters like Tyrion.

I agree there, she is a foil in the first two books. Her actions drive the narrative. We get to know her much better in the books later when we get Cersei POV chapters. I get the impression that Lena Heady's Cersei is more the paranoid psycho-mom of the later books than the über-manipulative sexpot impression we get from the first books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 15, 2012, 05:32:47 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 15, 2012, 05:21:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 15, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Any Cerci scenes annoy me. not sure if it's the acting or the character herself.

The character is pretty awful, i.e one-dimensional.  She is basically there to be a foil for more authorially preferred characters like Tyrion.

I agree there, she is a foil in the first two books. Her actions drive the narrative. We get to know her much better in the books later when we get Cersei POV chapters. I get the impression that Lena Heady's Cersei is more the paranoid psycho-mom of the later books than the über-manipulative sexpot impression we get from the first books.
I think the later books have influenced the interpretation of several characters. I don't remember Dany being this annoying early on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2012, 01:13:58 AM
Wow, you guys are weird. I think the show's Cersei is one of the most complex and interesting characters - and it seems the general consensus of critics/commentators is the same. You sometimes interpret this show like teenage nerds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 16, 2012, 02:58:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2012, 01:13:58 AM
Wow, you guys are weird. I think the show's Cersei is one of the most complex and interesting characters - and it seems the general consensus of critics/commentators is the same. You sometimes interpret this show like teenage nerds.

Eh. She's a shallow, incompetent and spiteful fool. That's her role. And she looks like Skeletor. I don't see the complexity, nor the attraction. I'll cop to being a nerd, but "I'll do dumb self-destructive things and make everyone hate me because I love my kids" is not exactly a claim to depth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 16, 2012, 03:06:10 AM
She is my least favourite character from the books, so that might be clouding my perception of her in the tv show. Book Cersi is aggrivating. It's not even because she loves her kids, at least not until the 4th book or something. It's because she has dick envy. She thinks she's her father when she's not and is pissed she was passed over since she wasn't a man. But her ego clouds her to the fact that she's just bad at playing the game. Every second comment is "if i was my father/if i was a man they'd treat my seriously". She's basically the polar opposite of the queen of thorns. Like the queen of thorns she's bitter at not being able to play the game in the open, but unlikely her Cerci's just really bad at playing the game from behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2012, 03:08:18 AM
Yeah.
Even if she was a man she would not be her dad as she thinks. She'd be more like the mountain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 16, 2012, 03:30:27 AM
Complex? :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 16, 2012, 03:32:20 AM
On a more serious note, I don't think Martin has children so he might only appreciate motherhood vicariously.

As soon as a noble woman of Westeros whelps she immediately goes batshit insane or goes and hides in a castle.

I refer you to Lysa Tully [spoiler]poisons her husband at Littlefinger's request[/spoiler], Catelyn Tullly [spoiler]who starts the war by arresting Tyrion without evidence as well as going Batshit Zombie on us later[/spoiler], Dany [spoiler]who lays waste to cities in essos[/spoiler], Cersei [spoiler]fucking jamie, trying to fuck over tyrion, trying to fuck over margaery tyrell, subborning the murder of her future daughter in law's pet[/spoiler], Allanis Harlaw [spoiler]hiding in a tower[/spoiler], Mellario of Norvos [spoiler]hiding in a tower[/spoiler]

It seems the only prominent noble with stretchmarks to retain her sanity is Olenna Tyrell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2012, 05:22:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2012, 01:13:58 AM
Wow, you guys are weird. I think the show's Cersei is one of the most complex and interesting characters - and it seems the general consensus of critics/commentators is the same. You sometimes interpret this show like teenage nerds.

Wow!  This one has it all:  personal attack, argument by assertion, faulty appeal to authority, and an ad hom - and all in just three sentences!

I just wanted to quote this to preserve it for posterity, in case Martinus ever claims he doesn't make truly absurd posts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2012, 08:53:28 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 16, 2012, 03:32:20 AM
On a more serious note, I don't think Martin has children so he might only appreciate motherhood vicariously.

Exactly.  The parent-child relationship is so exotic to him its easy to mistake for real complexity.

Of Martin's grown up women, only Catelyn is really fully fleshed out and given complex motivations.  But then [spoiler]Martin turns her into a zombie[/spoiler]  Brienne and Asha are given dimensionality but are deliberately defined in opposition to traditional feminine qualities.  The only function of their gender is to create plotting obstacles for them.  Dany is just a human plot generation engine.  The Tyrell women are interesting characters in concept but there is zero access to their inner life and their motivations beyond their ambition. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2012, 11:03:48 AM
I very much like what the show has done so far with Maergery. In just a few scenes, they've defined her extremely well, and made her interesting.

"Do you want to be a queen?"

"No...I want the be THE queen."

I hope she gets more of a role in the series.

Plus she is incredibly attractive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 17, 2012, 07:49:36 PM
Edmure is in!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/leaked-audition-tape-confirms-edmure-tully-will-be-cast/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 17, 2012, 07:53:51 PM
Edmure is a no-duh cast.  It's the Blackfish that everyone's wondering about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on May 17, 2012, 10:29:15 PM
I'm almost up to date in the latest season, though I've not read the new book so I've avoided this threat like the plague.

But seriously how did they find these child actors.  Arya, Bran, Joffrey and Sansa are all brilliantly played.  If directors copy the auditions these guys must have done we'll never again have to endure hype about Haley Joel Osment or Rupert Grint.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on May 17, 2012, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 16, 2012, 02:58:18 AMEh. She's a shallow, incompetent and spiteful fool. That's her role. And she looks like Skeletor. I don't see the complexity, nor the attraction. I'll cop to being a nerd, but "I'll do dumb self-destructive things and make everyone hate me because I love my kids" is not exactly a claim to depth.
I disagree that that's all there is to it.  I think she's an interesting and well-portrayed counter-point to Cate.  They're both motivated by love of their children and make dreadful mistakes for it.  I think where Cate's suffering makes war ever more real to her, the relative lack of suffering from Cersei means war's still a game it's as serious and petulant as her fights with Tyrion.  You get the feeling Cate's going to go and become a full on Greek tragedy mourning mother that'll tear the world down, while Cersei will spiral in ever smaller and less significant circles and in the process lose everything. 

That may change - as I say I'm not up to date on the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on May 17, 2012, 10:41:43 PM
Also with the ending of Harry Potter I'm delighted that something else has emerged to keep all British actors ever fully occupied and employed :)

Edit:  This does also make me feel the dull waste of British TV.  It's like when I watched Deadwood, saw Ian McShane's performance and realised the best we'd given him for decades was Lovejoy  :Embarrass: :bleeding: :weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 17, 2012, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 16, 2012, 03:06:10 AM
She is my least favourite character from the books, so that might be clouding my perception of her in the tv show. Book Cersi is aggrivating. It's not even because she loves her kids, at least not until the 4th book or something. It's because she has dick envy. She thinks she's her father when she's not and is pissed she was passed over since she wasn't a man. But her ego clouds her to the fact that she's just bad at playing the game. Every second comment is "if i was my father/if i was a man they'd treat my seriously". She's basically the polar opposite of the queen of thorns. Like the queen of thorns she's bitter at not being able to play the game in the open, but unlikely her Cerci's just really bad at playing the game from behind the scenes.

I found Cersi the second least interesting character of the book after her son, Joffrey.  Joffrey seems to have no motivation for the evil things he does.  Cerci has weak ones.  Martin seems to realize this and tries to flesh them out later, but it's a dime short and a day late.  He should read "I, Claudius" for how an evil Matriarch should act.  I will admit that I don't full understand dynastic politics, there are plenty of ruthless dowagers to model her actions on.

I think a great deal of the problem is that Martin changed drastically what kind of story he wanted to tell and how he was going to tell it part way through.  Cersei was originally just pure evil and loathsome as he decided to flesh her and the rest of the Lannisters out the one dimension portrayal clashed with any future attempt to deepen the character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on May 19, 2012, 11:07:40 PM
But if you model her on Livia or known she-wolves you've a bit of a problem in that it assumes success.  Why can't scheming matriarchs fail and not be competent?

I'd add that I think all of the characters are better and more richly portrayed on screen than they are in the books and Cersei's no exception.  I think Martin writes good and enjoyable books but I wouldn't go to them for credible, believable, psychologically penetrating character studies.  Luckily the TV writers are good at that because it matters a lot in their medium and they've hired good actors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on May 19, 2012, 11:42:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2012, 03:01:23 AM
-Jaime's escape scene was retarded, it wasnt necessary to kill that guy for itt
Sure, but does Jaime care? If he thought killing the guy would give him even a slightly better chance at escape, isn't Jaime the kind of guy who would take it? Shit, maybe he just wanted to kill someone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 19, 2012, 11:51:50 PM
That guy's death was absolutely necessary for Jaime's escape.

The whole scene tidied up several parts from the book. Jaime did almost escape, he did cut down a couple Stark men, a Lannister boy is murdered in the books, and whatshisface Karstark is now enraged and wanting Jaime's head, as he should.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2012, 01:07:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 17, 2012, 10:29:15 PM
I'm almost up to date in the latest season, though I've not read the new book so I've avoided this threat like the plague.

But seriously how did they find these child actors.  Arya, Bran, Joffrey and Sansa are all brilliantly played.  If directors copy the auditions these guys must have done we'll never again have to endure hype about Haley Joel Osment or Rupert Grint.

I saw all their initial casting tapes and to be honest it was obvious from them that these kids knew what they were doing even if they didn't know the books (sophie turner's was especially good at catching sansa's initial snottyness). What they did is send out a casting call to agents and to school drama clubs.

Nina Gold - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002274/ did the casting and she is very very good at it. Apparently this is a real job which, when done with skill and knowledge, produces real results well above "I just happen to know a guy/girl who would be perfect for the role".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 20, 2012, 01:08:12 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 20, 2012, 01:07:18 AM


Nina Gold - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002274/ did the casting and she is very very good at it. Apparently this is a real job which, when done with skill and knowledge, produces real results well above "I just happen to know a guy/girl who would be perfect for the role".


:mellow:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2012, 01:10:05 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2012, 01:08:12 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 20, 2012, 01:07:18 AM


Nina Gold - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002274/ did the casting and she is very very good at it. Apparently this is a real job which, when done with skill and knowledge, produces real results well above "I just happen to know a guy/girl who would be perfect for the role".


:mellow:

:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2012, 02:11:21 AM
I wish people learned to spell Cersei right. It's not Cerci or Cersi.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2012, 02:21:25 AM
It's Circe. But I'm not sure why we're talking about The Odyssey here.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 20, 2012, 02:49:54 AM
Great. Another Circe jerk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2012, 05:37:30 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 20, 2012, 01:07:18 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 17, 2012, 10:29:15 PM
I'm almost up to date in the latest season, though I've not read the new book so I've avoided this threat like the plague.

But seriously how did they find these child actors.  Arya, Bran, Joffrey and Sansa are all brilliantly played.  If directors copy the auditions these guys must have done we'll never again have to endure hype about Haley Joel Osment or Rupert Grint.

I saw all their initial casting tapes and to be honest it was obvious from them that these kids knew what they were doing even if they didn't know the books (sophie turner's was especially good at catching sansa's initial snottyness). What they did is send out a casting call to agents and to school drama clubs.

Nina Gold - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002274/ did the casting and she is very very good at it. Apparently this is a real job which, when done with skill and knowledge, produces real results well above "I just happen to know a guy/girl who would be perfect for the role".

where did you see these tapes? Sounds interesting,
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2012, 09:06:03 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 20, 2012, 05:37:30 AM
where did you see these tapes? Sounds interesting,

you tube ffs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKdJ8jXAbX8
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
The Hound and Arya's in particular are awesome!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 20, 2012, 03:24:20 PM
Just watched last week's episode. Very dull and seems to continue in the vein of making most of the characters unlikable. Not sure why we needed so many screen minutes of Jon getting hammered on his lack of sexual prowess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 20, 2012, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2012, 11:03:48 AM
I very much like what the show has done so far with Maergery. In just a few scenes, they've defined her extremely well, and made her interesting.

"Do you want to be a queen?"

"No...I want the be THE queen."

I hope she gets more of a role in the series.

Plus she is incredibly attractive.

Yes though I've started to wonder if that actress is capable of any other character type. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2012, 05:42:23 PM
Haven't read the last several dozen pages, so I don't know if this has been posted, but what the hell anyway:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets0.ordienetworks.com%2Fimages%2Fuser_photos%2F1258330%2F1ae4782586c394d79f91dc7eb436422c_width_640x.jpg&hash=cda90291eeb5db5751cfd8cc0aae31e9eba8ed20)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2012, 06:02:01 PM
I thought her son's name was Robert. :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 20, 2012, 06:20:40 PM
HEY! :angry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2012, 06:02:01 PM
I thought her son's name was Robert. :nerd:

The name was changed for the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2012, 07:31:08 PM
Makes sense, I suppose. Wouldn't want viewers confusing him with the dead king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 20, 2012, 07:46:47 PM
The books sort of do that too. They try not to repeat names too much, if at all. Even if they are only slight variations of the names: Robert, Robb, Robert (called Robin though), Robbett, etc. etc. etc.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 21, 2012, 02:42:15 AM
Charlie Chaplin has a hot granddaughter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2012, 02:54:30 AM
She looks how I imagined Shae.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2012, 03:04:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 20, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2012, 06:02:01 PM
I thought her son's name was Robert. :nerd:

The name was changed for the series.

It's like the history of england, everybodys named Richard, Edward or Henry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 21, 2012, 02:54:30 AM
She looks how I imagined Shae.

I remember shae being big tittet, stupid and remarkably compliant not flat chested, smart and sassy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2012, 04:22:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
I remember shae being big tittet, stupid and remarkably compliant not flat chested, smart and sassy.

She had a bit of spunk, but that really isn't something that shows up in mug shots.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2012, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 21, 2012, 04:22:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
I remember shae being big tittet, stupid and remarkably compliant not flat chested, smart and sassy.

She had a bit of spunk, but that really isn't something that shows up in mug shots.

must not... must not......


oh, sorry, I got distracted by japanese bukkake porn... spunk on your mug for fucks sake
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on May 21, 2012, 02:32:55 PM
Wait, Sibel Kikeli plays Shae? I recall when she had some success with Head-On (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0347048/) German BILD "newspaper" ran a smear campaign about her porn performer past.

She's on German tv relatively often (plays in a crime series) and gets casted in both German and Turkish roles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2012, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: Syt on May 21, 2012, 02:32:55 PM
Wait, Sibel Kikeli plays Shae? I recall when she had some success with Head-On (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0347048/) German BILD "newspaper" ran a smear campaign about her porn performer past.

She's on German tv relatively often (plays in a crime series) and gets casted in both German and Turkish roles.

Her conservative turkish family lost their marbles when she got into porn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
This might whet your appetites for next week...the Battle of Blackwater

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
This might whet your appetites for next week...the Battle of Blackwater

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ 

I hope it's good, because episode eight wasn't that good.  Way too slow-moving for a show that only has ten episodes a season.  I can only think that they were scrimping on money, so used a lot of exposition scenes to minimize shooting days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 21, 2012, 08:04:39 PM
Biggest turn off so far:
- No Jeyne or Cybell Westerlings.
- No Meera or Jejen Reed.
- No Vargo Hoat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2012, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 21, 2012, 08:04:39 PM
Biggest turn off so far:
- No Jeyne or Cybell Westerlings.
- No Meera or Jejen Reed.
- No Vargo Hoat.
Talisa is obviously Jeyne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2012, 08:41:26 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/33985_10150831323417734_74133697733_9873711_897526013_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 22, 2012, 12:28:03 AM
The show kinda sucks, timmay  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 22, 2012, 12:37:38 AM
but Zoupa, Roz the whore made another cameo in the latest episode!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 22, 2012, 12:41:37 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 22, 2012, 12:28:03 AM
The show kinda sucks, timmay  :hug:

Why do you come back here? I thought you announced you are not going to watch anymore. We liked it when you were gone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 22, 2012, 12:42:36 AM
Pot meet kettle....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 22, 2012, 12:52:15 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2012, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 21, 2012, 08:04:39 PM
Biggest turn off so far:
- No Jeyne or Cybell Westerlings.
- No Meera or Jejen Reed.
- No Vargo Hoat.
Talisa is obviously Jeyne.

She damn well better be, or I'll be pissed.

She's already fucked Robb, and he's not injured.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 22, 2012, 12:58:38 AM
The fucking part was only implied; Until I see Stark penis enter Volantene vagina, Robb is a virgin to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 22, 2012, 02:37:21 AM
Dani's cameo in the last episode angers me...and probally tv show only fans greatly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on May 22, 2012, 02:47:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
This might whet your appetites for next week...the Battle of Blackwater

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ 

I hope it's good, because episode eight wasn't that good.  Way too slow-moving for a show that only has ten episodes a season.  I can only think that they were scrimping on money, so used a lot of exposition scenes to minimize shooting days.

Yep, was a really weak episode last night.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2012, 03:25:01 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 22, 2012, 12:28:03 AM
The show kinda sucks, timmay  :hug:
I'm in favor of 3/4 of the changes they've made, so I disagree.  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 07:13:18 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 22, 2012, 02:47:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
This might whet your appetites for next week...the Battle of Blackwater

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ 

I hope it's good, because episode eight wasn't that good.  Way too slow-moving for a show that only has ten episodes a season.  I can only think that they were scrimping on money, so used a lot of exposition scenes to minimize shooting days.

Yep, was a really weak episode last night.

I feel like I'm watching this show in Bizarro world. All the episodes I find interesting you guys hate & vice versa.

I thought last nite episode was pretty good. Lots happened & the story moved forward without a feeling of rushing thru.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 22, 2012, 07:17:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 07:13:18 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 22, 2012, 02:47:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
This might whet your appetites for next week...the Battle of Blackwater

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ 

I hope it's good, because episode eight wasn't that good.  Way too slow-moving for a show that only has ten episodes a season.  I can only think that they were scrimping on money, so used a lot of exposition scenes to minimize shooting days.

Yep, was a really weak episode last night.

I feel like I'm watching this show in Bizarro world. All the episodes I find interesting you guys hate & vice versa.

I thought last nite episode was pretty good. Lots happened & the story moved forward without a feeling of rushing thru.

yes
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 22, 2012, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 07:13:18 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 22, 2012, 02:47:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
This might whet your appetites for next week...the Battle of Blackwater

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ 

I hope it's good, because episode eight wasn't that good.  Way too slow-moving for a show that only has ten episodes a season.  I can only think that they were scrimping on money, so used a lot of exposition scenes to minimize shooting days.

Yep, was a really weak episode last night.

I feel like I'm watching this show in Bizarro world. All the episodes I find interesting you guys hate & vice versa.

I thought last nite episode was pretty good. Lots happened & the story moved forward without a feeling of rushing thru.

You are Quebecois and emo. You do live in Bizarro world. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 12:05:43 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 07:13:18 AM
I feel like I'm watching this show in Bizarro world. All the episodes I find interesting you guys hate & vice versa.

I thought last nite episode was pretty good. Lots happened & the story moved forward without a feeling of rushing thru.

If you think lots happened in that ep, either you have a diffeent interpretation of "lots" or you didn't see the same episode I did.

Someone who slipped the episode completely would wonder, next week, how Arya and Jamie escaped, and that's it.  The Robb storyline didn't really advance, the Tyrion storyline didn't really advance, the Jon Snow storyline didn't really advance, the Stannis storyline didn't really advance, and the Dani storyline didn't really advance.  People just talked and talked and talked.

As I said, I am hoping that they were just saving money for the battle.  If it was a deliberate decision to have the characters tread water for 1/10 of the season because the producers thought it a superior approach to having them make decisions and take action, that's really bad news in terms of how well-produced we can expect the show to be in the future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 12:12:45 PM
Robb got laid, fired his mom altho he keeps waiting for One of the 7 knows what.
Tyrion is trying to defend Kings Landing while Cersei & King Impotent go on being idiots.
Jon Snow got captured & has started infiltrating the Widlings
Stannis made Lord Onion his future Hand, also got closer to KL.
Arya blackmailed Jaquen(?) into escaping
Dany didn't do anything but I feel like this is what happens in the book too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2012, 11:27:12 AM
You are Quebecois and emo. You do live in Bizarro world. :P

:lol:

I aint emo anymore, I grew up, now I'm just an asshole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 22, 2012, 12:44:32 PM
This episode established a lot of background info, especially for non-readers (who, let's face it, are the majority of this show's viewers). About the only problem I could see with it is how it somewhat pussified Arya, removing all of her book kills and questionable actions to date, but I guess there's still time for her to undergo her change of character (I'm thinking her time spent with the Hound in the next season will go towards that).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 01:02:42 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 12:12:45 PM
Robb got laid, fired his mom altho he keeps waiting for One of the 7 knows what.

Translation:  nothing happened.

QuoteTyrion is trying to defend Kings Landing while Cersei & King Impotent go on being idiots.

Exactly:  nothing happened.

QuoteJon Snow got captured & has started infiltrating the Widlings

Jon Snow got captured between episodes and started this ep tied up.  He did nothing whatsoever to infiltrate the Wildlings.  IOW, nothing happened.

QuoteStannis made Lord Onion his future Hand, also got closer to KL.

In other words, nothing happened.

QuoteArya blackmailed Jaquen(?) into escaping

Already mentioned.

QuoteDany didn't do anything but I feel like this is what happens in the book too.

This is a TV show.  One of ten episodes for the entire season.  Wasting one-tenth of a season having characters stand around and jaw to no effect is not good TV.  A book can get away with some wasted time, because there isn't a hard-and-fast 530-minute limit to a book, unlike the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 22, 2012, 01:15:38 PM
I issue a level 1 Grumbler Alert.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 01:32:01 PM
Grumbler, can you tell me what happened in the previous week episode that was so great?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 22, 2012, 02:51:45 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 01:32:01 PM
Grumbler, can you tell me what happened in the previous week episode that was so great?

But the previous week was pretty much the same. I agree the last two eps have been "talkie-episodes." BUT, as has been siad, I think this is a budget issue and we're going to see the results of two boring episodes next week.


Hopefully.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 02:51:57 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 01:32:01 PM
Grumbler, can you tell me what happened in the previous week episode that was so great?

Why do you think the previous week's episode was so great?  I'm not seeing it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2012, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 01:02:42 PM

This is a TV show.  One of ten episodes for the entire season.  Wasting one-tenth of a season having characters stand around and jaw to no effect is not good TV.  A book can get away with some wasted time, because there isn't a hard-and-fast 530-minute limit to a book, unlike the series.
I completely disagree. It depends what characters are talking about and how good the actors are. There are tv shows that are all talk that are great and there are shows that are all action and plot twists that suck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 06:00:49 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 22, 2012, 05:30:46 PM
I completely disagree. It depends what characters are talking about and how good the actors are. There are tv shows that are all talk that are great and there are shows that are all action and plot twists that suck.

I completely disagree with your complete disagreement.  You can just disagree with my assertion that "having characters stand around and jaw to no effect is not good TV" all day, and you won't convince me at all.

Except in quirky character sketchs (like the skit with John Belushi and Steve Marrtin staring into the camera and just saying "what the hell is that" in hillbilly voices on SNL), dialogue that doesn't advance plot or character development is wasted time on TV.

This episdode should have skipped Stannis completely, deleted the chit-chat between Tyrion and Varys, cut the Yara/Theon sequence in half, and had Dani take out the House of the Undying in the time thus freed up.  Then, at least one story line would actually have advanced.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 08:12:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 02:51:57 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2012, 01:32:01 PM
Grumbler, can you tell me what happened in the previous week episode that was so great?

Why do you think the previous week's episode was so great?  I'm not seeing it.

I'm not sure, all the episode blur themselves.

I think I'm starting to see your point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 22, 2012, 08:20:45 PM
Episodes blurring together is a good thing IMO, same as how it's easier to read a novel than a book of related short stories.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 22, 2012, 09:15:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 22, 2012, 01:15:38 PM
I issue a level 1 Grumbler Alert.

All stations on standby.  Ad hominems expected.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 23, 2012, 01:31:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 06:00:49 PM
the chit-chat between Tyrion and Varys, cut the Yara/Theon sequence in half

Heh. You just mentioned the best moments of character interaction in the entire series (two out of three anyway, Arya/Tywin being the third). Tyrion/Varys chats are widely praised by fans and the last episode's Yara/Theon dialogue was also considered extremely good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:34:45 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 23, 2012, 01:31:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 22, 2012, 06:00:49 PM
the chit-chat between Tyrion and Varys, cut the Yara/Theon sequence in half

Heh. You just mentioned the best moments of character interaction in the entire series (two out of three anyway, Arya/Tywin being the third). Tyrion/Varys chats are widely praised by fans and the last episode's Yara/Theon dialogue was also considered extremely good.

It's funny how out of touch grumbler is with this. It's like his complaints about the books - one wonders why he even watches the show/reads the books as he dislikes the things that are most liked by the fans. You could just as well complain that Babylon 5 has political plots and has spaceships and aliens in it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on May 23, 2012, 02:53:24 AM
G's right. You guys are just such childish fanbois you are unable to engage your critical faculties.

It's still a good series, it's just had a very dull episode. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 23, 2012, 03:02:38 AM
I'm not saying it's the worst thing I ever watched. I almost wish I hadn't read the books beforehand.

What bugs me is that I don't understand the changes made to the story. Why can't Jeyne Westerling just be Jeyne Westerling from the Crag and not some totally new character? Why is Shae this super rude bitch that somehow is prepared to kill to defend Sansa, while she was just a spoiled prostitute in the books?

Had I not read the books, I have to admit I'd probably consider the tv show cool and different from the norm, I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 23, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
Why i don't read :smarty:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 23, 2012, 03:10:30 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 23, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
Why i don't read :smarty:

I thought that was because you couldn't. :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 23, 2012, 03:24:49 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 23, 2012, 03:10:30 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 23, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
Why i don't read :smarty:

I thought that was because you couldn't. :unsure:

No that is the illiterate yokel carpetbagger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 04:11:33 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 23, 2012, 03:02:38 AM
I'm not saying it's the worst thing I ever watched. I almost wish I hadn't read the books beforehand.

What bugs me is that I don't understand the changes made to the story. Why can't Jeyne Westerling just be Jeyne Westerling from the Crag and not some totally new character?
She's obviously lying. That's exactly who she is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2012, 05:04:33 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 23, 2012, 01:31:20 AM
Heh. You just mentioned the best moments of character interaction in the entire series (two out of three anyway, Arya/Tywin being the third). Tyrion/Varys chats are widely praised by fans and the last episode's Yara/Theon dialogue was also considered extremely good.

Heh.  You'd really rather see Tyrion and Varys chit-chatting about how they love to play the game than see Danerys storm the House of the Undying?  TV is about pacing.  You can have character interactions and plot advancement, all in one episode.  The show has done it many times before.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:11:18 AM
<-----childish fanboi #1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2012, 05:14:36 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 23, 2012, 03:02:38 AM
I'm not saying it's the worst thing I ever watched. I almost wish I hadn't read the books beforehand.

What bugs me is that I don't understand the changes made to the story. Why can't Jeyne Westerling just be Jeyne Westerling from the Crag and not some totally new character? Why is Shae this super rude bitch that somehow is prepared to kill to defend Sansa, while she was just a spoiled prostitute in the books?

Had I not read the books, I have to admit I'd probably consider the tv show cool and different from the norm, I guess.

I'm willing to give them a pass on the changes until we see how they develop.  The new character of Talisa certainly simplifies the whole Robb love story (which tales place completely off-stage in the book, and never made a lot of sense anyway), and I am not sure she won't prove to be Jeyne Westerly after all.  Remember how she was so reluctant to go with Robb to the Crag (which he still hasn't done, apparently, even though he was just about to at the end of episode seven).

Changes to Shae make less sense, but then Tyrion is a far bigger character in the TV series than the books.  Maybe the producers just wanted him to have a more "worthy" love interest.

In sum, the changes to the story don't amount, yet, to anything I can really object to.  It is a different medium, requiring different rules.  We'll see how the trend develops, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 23, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 23, 2012, 05:04:33 AM
Heh.  You'd really rather see Tyrion and Varys chit-chatting about how they love to play the game than see Danerys storm the House of the Undying?  TV is about pacing.  You can have character interactions and plot advancement, all in one episode.  The show has done it many times before.

You realize that in the books Daenerys has done fuck all at this point and the show actually gives her more action? And the House of the Undying is likely to be an event of season-ending significance, so I'm willing to wait.

As an aside, I'm perfectly willing to watch a show based entirely around Tyrion, Varys, and Bronn chatting. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2012, 05:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:34:45 AM
It's funny how out of touch grumbler is with this. It's like his complaints about the books - one wonders why he even watches the show/reads the books as he dislikes the things that are most liked by the fans. You could just as well complain that Babylon 5 has political plots and has spaceships and aliens in it.

It's funny how Marti actually doesn't have an intellectual answer to the questions I pose, and instead resorts to ad homs and his reliably silly analogies.

Note the difference between my specific arguments about the show, and Marti's vague arguments about my character.  That's the difference between intellectual rigor, and unintellectual faboi-ism.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:24:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:34:45 AM
Babylon 5

Could never get into that show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2012, 05:32:47 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 23, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
You realize that in the books Daenerys has done fuck all at this point and the show actually gives her more action? And the House of the Undying is likely to be an event of season-ending significance, so I'm willing to wait.

This is a TV show - it need not, and indeed does not, follow the books slavishly.  Every character in the episode, bar Anya/Tyrwin and Jamie/Brienne, ends episode eight where they started it.  That's not good plot advancement.  I can understand the need to conserve resources to pay for the battle scenes, and would accept that as an excuse for a "treading water" episode, but I don't have to ignore the fact that it was a treading water episode.  I think that they could end the season around any one of a number of significant events.  There is nothing magical about the House of the Undying that makes it impossible to eliminate until the end of the season.

QuoteAs an aside, I'm perfectly willing to watch a show based entirely around Tyrion, Varys, and Bronn chatting.

The Bronn chatting advances the story; it shows how ill-prepared Tyrion is to command the city in a siege.  The Varys/Tyrion chatting about King Joffrey advances the plot; it shows how scared and unprepared Joffrey is to be a leader.  The chitchat about how they love to play the game and that there are dragons but they aren't an issue yet doesn't advance the story, and could have been deleted in favor of actions elsewhere that did advance the story.

This is all just an intellectual argument, of course.  What has been filmed has been filmed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:41:54 AM
That's your problem, grumbler. Few men here can challenge your intellect one on one. It is like being Mike Tyson in the 80s and going to your local bar and asking "Anyone want to fight?".

Everyone would run to the door except Martinus - he would perhaps feebly attempt to beat you with his purse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:41:54 AM
That's your problem, grumbler. Few men here can challenge your intellect one on one. It is like being Mike Tyson in the 80s and going to your local bar and asking "Anyone want to fight?".

Everyone would run to the door except Martinus - he would perhaps feebly attempt to beat you with his purse.

Suck ass
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:43:24 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:41:54 AM
That's your problem, grumbler. Few men here can challenge your intellect one on one. It is like being Mike Tyson in the 80s and going to your local bar and asking "Anyone want to fight?".

Everyone would run to the door except Martinus - he would perhaps feebly attempt to beat you with his purse.

Suck ass

Plonker
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:46:19 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:43:24 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 23, 2012, 05:41:54 AM
That's your problem, grumbler. Few men here can challenge your intellect one on one. It is like being Mike Tyson in the 80s and going to your local bar and asking "Anyone want to fight?".

Everyone would run to the door except Martinus - he would perhaps feebly attempt to beat you with his purse.

Suck ass

Plonker

Sorry dont drink cheap wine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2012, 09:41:21 AM
One thing that struck me about the Varys and Tyrion chat was their dragon talk....they just took it all at face value it seemed.
Tyrion pretty much said "She has dragons? OK. No worries, they'll take a while to grow." when he really should be "She has dragons? I suppose she has the children of the forest lining up to support her too."
In the books the stories of the dragons were treat mostly as hearsay.

Agreed things are going a bit slow.
Overall with the series I'm greatly dissapointed at how they skip over the action.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2012, 09:16:23 AM
The Rains of Castamere  :menace:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0xu7P-zzsk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 24, 2012, 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:24:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:34:45 AM
Babylon 5

Could never get into that show.

I wouldn't have minded it but for all the political plots, spaceships and aliens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 24, 2012, 11:04:57 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 24, 2012, 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:24:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:34:45 AM
Babylon 5

Could never get into that show.

I wouldn't have minded it but for all the political plots, spaceships and aliens.

My main problem with it was that they apparently didn't have enough space dollars to get decent space lighting in their space station. It was always dark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 24, 2012, 12:17:31 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 24, 2012, 10:40:51 AM
I wouldn't have minded it but for all the political plots, spaceships and aliens.

Agree with all of that except the bits about the political plots, spaceships, and aliens. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 24, 2012, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2012, 09:16:23 AM
The Rains of Castamere  :menace:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0xu7P-zzsk

That was awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 24, 2012, 04:56:09 PM
Why was the Hound so badly casted?
It should have been the actor playing Bronn, or the one playing jaqar.
It should have been somebody that could look good with Sansa, despite the age diference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
He wasn't poorly-cast, in my opinion, but he's been ill-used.  And by that, I mean not at all.  If any character has been effectively cut from the series, it's him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 24, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 24, 2012, 04:56:09 PM
Why was the Hound so badly casted?
It should have been the actor playing Bronn, or the one playing jaqar.
It should have been somebody that could look good with Sansa, despite the age diference.
Looks well casted to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIWX2fPx-5k

Like Grumbler said, his character's been cut back a lot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 24, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 24, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
He wasn't poorly-cast, in my opinion, but he's been ill-used.  And by that, I mean not at all.  If any character has been effectively cut from the series, it's him.

QuoteLike Grumbler said, his character's been cut back a lot.

:hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 24, 2012, 06:13:50 PM
Sock puppet :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2012, 06:20:20 PM
Convergence!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 24, 2012, 08:44:25 PM
What?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 24, 2012, 08:52:11 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 24, 2012, 06:20:20 PM
Convergence!
:lol:

Except that I wouldn't argue that the Hound has been under-used at all.  He has appeared where he needed to appear, which is how ensemble TV works.  They probably did all his scenes for the season in a few days, because that's all the time of his they would pay for.  Sansa didn't appear in ep 8 either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 25, 2012, 12:18:33 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 24, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 24, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
He wasn't poorly-cast, in my opinion, but he's been ill-used.  And by that, I mean not at all.  If any character has been effectively cut from the series, it's him.

QuoteLike Grumbler said, his character's been cut back a lot.

:hmm:
Whoops :face:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 25, 2012, 12:23:47 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 25, 2012, 12:18:33 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 24, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 24, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
He wasn't poorly-cast, in my opinion, but he's been ill-used.  And by that, I mean not at all.  If any character has been effectively cut from the series, it's him.

QuoteLike Grumbler said, his character's been cut back a lot.

:hmm:
Whoops :face:

:unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 25, 2012, 06:57:37 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthechive.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2Fdaily-morning-awesomeness-2411.jpg&hash=a2ec26941b69bdb190a8b8f965ca3814825f2f41)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 26, 2012, 09:35:06 PM
 :lol:  No way!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 26, 2012, 09:37:56 PM
After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that GoT is a bad for me.
Too much drinking and fighting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 26, 2012, 09:52:52 PM
Jon Snow cannnot posibly become king because even if he is Rhaegar's, he still a bastard.
There is no way around it. The Fat Man have been fucking wit all of us all along.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
There is certainly no proof he is a bastard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 26, 2012, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
There is certainly no proof he is a bastard.

How can he not be a bastard when Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 26, 2012, 10:52:22 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd3%2FLeighton-God_Speed%2521.jpg%2F435px-Leighton-God_Speed%2521.jpg&hash=17ac66318c8d2a57a7120553e2d66947b6ca0db2)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 10:53:56 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 26, 2012, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
There is certainly no proof he is a bastard.

How can he not be a bastard when Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne?

Sufficient proof exists that Rhaegar may have legally married Jon's mother prior to his death. Targaryens had been polygamists before. They do not necessarily adhere to a one wife rule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 26, 2012, 10:55:38 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 10:53:56 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 26, 2012, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
There is certainly no proof he is a bastard.

How can he not be a bastard when Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne?

Sufficient proof exists that Rhaegar may have legally married Jon's mother prior to his death. Targaryens had been polygamists before. They do not necessarily adhere to a one wife rule.

What?
There is no polygamy in westeros. Are you crazy?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 11:01:50 PM
There is no polygamy in Westeros, but the Targaryens are from the East.

I think it is fairly conclusive that not only is Jon Rhaegar's son, but also his heir and he will end up winning the entire book because the author loves him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 26, 2012, 11:49:21 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 11:01:50 PM
There is no polygamy in Westeros, but the Targaryens are from the East.

I think it is fairly conclusive that not only is Jon Rhaegar's son, but also his heir and he will end up winning the entire book because the author loves him.
Or that's the way it should go in typical fantasy style.
Martin likes messing with fantasy cliches so much he makes a cliche of it. Though I do suspect he won't mess with that one.

Polygamy: The Targs had converted to the faith of the seven though, they followed western customs now...except for the marrying sisters thing.
I think he did marry Ms Stark though; it was after king's landing had fell and his wife murdered and just before Jon popped out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 11:51:51 PM
He was dead when King's Landing fell. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 27, 2012, 12:13:17 AM
Oh crap yeah the battle at the river, got myself mixed up.
Hmm...some sort of de-conversion?
Seems weird he could just polygamise like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 27, 2012, 01:47:00 AM
Targaryens continued with polygamy after the conquest

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy/
QuoteJune 06, 2001
Targaryen Polygamy

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).

So, yes there was Targaryen polygamy and if you can't find evidence that is just because Martin has created it yet.

The other marriage/elopement in the story (Tyrion-Tysha) has a drunken anonymous septon. I think that is foreshadowing to which is enough precedent to make Jon legitimate.

Note, Rhaegar could not have married Lyanna after Elia of Dorne was dead on the simple grounds that by the time Amory Lorch kills her Rhaegar is himself already dead. Jon is posthumous. This is naturally assuming that Rhaegar is not Mance and Elia is not Septa Lemore (nor anybody else).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 27, 2012, 04:43:52 AM
A king can legitimize a bastard too, this is mentioned several times in the books. Now we just have to decide which king will do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 27, 2012, 04:54:52 AM
The only true and rightful king, of course: Aegon VI.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 27, 2012, 09:32:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 27, 2012, 04:43:52 AM
A king can legitimize a bastard too, this is mentioned several times in the books. Now we just have to decide which king will do it.

Robb legitimized (or was about to legitimize) Jon (but the letter hasn't arrived) and Stannis has offered to legitimize Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
I can't think of a single example in pre-Industrial history of an army landing amphibiously and then storming a major series of fortifications. The lack of complex siege weapons would probably make it impossible.  King's Landing is about the size of Constantinople, and it should have *way* more impressive fortifications. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 12:22:36 AM
Perhaps a lack of historical threats contributed to the weak defenses of KL.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 12:22:36 AM
Perhaps a lack of historical threats contributed to the weak defenses of KL.
I think it is more likely that the city is primarily the outgrowth of a military settlement, unlike Constantinople.  The central keep would be able to stand against siege for some time, presumably, meaning that the matter at hand is defending the city against sacking rather than the complete collapse of Lannister power in the east.  I haven't read the books, so I don't know. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:29:49 AM
You know, I'd expect a man as crafty as Davos to know of an incoming Tyrell-Lannister force.  Is this addressed in the books?  They really should have retreated after the first encounter with the super-Greek Fire. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 12:40:05 AM
KL has a bitchin' keep, but I don't recall the city's growth or defenses being very detailed in the books. I think the city is relatively new and was built maybe 300 years prior to the start of the novels. There might have been a village or something there, but the Targaryens custom built it, much like Constantinople.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:44:45 AM
Constantinople is a city with walls.  That's very different from what every image of King's Landing makes it look like-an outgrowth of a military settlement. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 28, 2012, 12:49:04 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:29:49 AM
You know, I'd expect a man as crafty as Davos to know of an incoming Tyrell-Lannister force.  Is this addressed in the books?  They really should have retreated after the first encounter with the super-Greek Fire.

Did you even pay attention to him this episode?  The ship he was on exploded and he's not seen at all after it.  When, exactly, would he have given the order to retreat?  Or used his apparent knowledge of an incoming Tyrell-Lannister force?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:53:21 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 28, 2012, 12:49:04 AM

Did you even pay attention to him this episode?  The ship he was on exploded and he's not seen at all after it.  When, exactly, would he have given the order to retreat?  Or used his apparent knowledge of an incoming Tyrell-Lannister force?
I think that proves my point.  Good intelligence prior to the battle would have indicated that a massive Tyrell-Lannister force was marching across the entirety of a continent to be at King's Landing, and that the Lannisters were prepared to use fireships.  The entire battle plan was sloppy, though it is obvious that Davos has some better idea of what the odds are than anyone we know of in Stannis' party.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 01:09:46 AM
I think you may have a point about the Tyrell force. One of the largest armies in Westeros marching to the capital would most certainly gather attention -- The Lannister force arrived rather last minute - due to a stroke of fortune that wasn't covered in the series at all.

I haven't seen the episode, but yes -- I recall Tyrion doing some kind of training with the city defenders to be sure they wouldn't drop the jars. I suppose it is not completely unthinkable that no one actually knew what he was doing. The production of wildfire was a pretty guarded secret.

Then again, Stannis is holed up on an island, so maybe it isn't easy to pass secrets to his camp. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 28, 2012, 05:15:01 AM
In the book the clans from the mountains of the moon kept killing stannis recon assets, and allowed the Tyrell-Lannister force to maximize the element of surprise.
Also, Garlan the Gallant wore Renly's suit of armor and freaked out stannis' men-at-arms. Appearenly Loras is the only Tyrell on sight so far, so he wore the little antlers on his helmet.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 28, 2012, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 12:53:21 AM

I think that proves my point.  Good intelligence prior to the battle would have indicated that a massive Tyrell-Lannister force was marching across the entirety of a continent to be at King's Landing, and that the Lannisters were prepared to use fireships.  The entire battle plan was sloppy, though it is obvious that Davos has some better idea of what the odds are than anyone we know of in Stannis' party.
Stannis is convinced he is the Real King.  Stannis men are convinced the people of KL will welcome them with open arms, and so is Stannis in a certain way.
Stannis is also convinced that his new God will give him victory.  I don't think he, nor anyone else knows that the Tyrells have joined forces with Tywin Lannister.

And I don't think Stannis is the kind of man that want to deal with spies as much as a man like Varris would rely on them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 28, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
hmm...that their importance to the battle has been cut is one thing but the complete unexplained dissapearance of the mountain tribes is weird.


King's Landing's fortifications- I think its a case of the central castle being all important. The fortifications there are probally pretty great. The city then grew around the castle, likely undefended for many years...with the local burghers eventually pressing for/stumping up a lot of cash for, walls to be built to defend the city proper as well as the keep.
A lot of cities in our world developed this way.
And building walls around an entire city is rather pricey, they tend not to be the grandest of things.
In a world where dragons dominate warfare I'd imagine the value of city walls would be even less- the reason for building them may have been more about customs control and keeping out criminals than defending against attacking armies.

It would have been nice for the TV series to touch on this- I recall in the books a big reason for Tyrion becoming unpopular (apart from his associations and being a Lannister of course) was due to forcing the people living on the outside of the walls away since they were a security risk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 28, 2012, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
hmm...that their importance to the battle has been cut is one thing but the complete unexplained dissapearance of the mountain tribes is weird.

They are cutting like mad men... the mountain tribes scouting and delaying stannis is ignored since he doesn't go overland, their role in being tyrions police force is replaced by Bronn and their dispersal and removal will be replaced by the dispersal and removal of Bronn. Very simple. If you want the details go read the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 28, 2012, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 28, 2012, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
hmm...that their importance to the battle has been cut is one thing but the complete unexplained dissapearance of the mountain tribes is weird.

They are cutting like mad men... the mountain tribes scouting and delaying stannis is ignored since he doesn't go overland, their role in being tyrions police force is replaced by Bronn and their dispersal and removal will be replaced by the dispersal and removal of Bronn. Very simple. If you want the details go read the book.

No explanation for their vanishing though. THey're there with Tyrion then suddenly they've vanished. To do away with  anything important involving them is fair enough, but it wouldn't have hurt to have a few of them still knocking around, amongst the troops of the battle.
I may have missed a "Oh the mountain tribes went home" quote somewhere along the way but I can't recall that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 28, 2012, 10:24:35 AM
This episode was seriously epic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 28, 2012, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2012, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 28, 2012, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
hmm...that their importance to the battle has been cut is one thing but the complete unexplained dissapearance of the mountain tribes is weird.

They are cutting like mad men... the mountain tribes scouting and delaying stannis is ignored since he doesn't go overland, their role in being tyrions police force is replaced by Bronn and their dispersal and removal will be replaced by the dispersal and removal of Bronn. Very simple. If you want the details go read the book.

No explanation for their vanishing though. THey're there with Tyrion then suddenly they've vanished. To do away with  anything important involving them is fair enough, but it wouldn't have hurt to have a few of them still knocking around, amongst the troops of the battle.
I may have missed a "Oh the mountain tribes went home" quote somewhere along the way but I can't recall that.

I expect Shagga will "disappear" in exposition when tyrion wakes up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 28, 2012, 02:46:12 PM
what the fuck is all this nerd whinefest again?

Haven't you realized what's happening? They took a great book and turned into a great TV series.

Since these two are completely, and I do mean completely different forms of entertainment, they made changes to make the TV series work without sacrificing the storyline.
They have been great in this, balancing on a tiny edge between failing as a TV series and abandoning the novels. They could have fucked it up so many ways. They haven't.

Then I come here and see a debate about how the defensive works of KL should look like. They should look like, well, whatever. It is an imaginary city in an imaginary land, standing there among dragons, undead, and shapeshifters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 28, 2012, 02:50:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2012, 02:46:12 PM
what the fuck is all this nerd whinefest again?

I don't get it, either.  They get a great TV episode, something that few shows ever receive the budget for, and whine about how it's not Helm's Deep in Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 28, 2012, 03:34:04 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2012, 02:46:12 PM
what the fuck is all this nerd whinefest again?

Haven't you realized what's happening? They took a great book and turned into a great TV series.

Since these two are completely, and I do mean completely different forms of entertainment, they made changes to make the TV series work without sacrificing the storyline.

This is where you are wrong. The TV show is increasingly become another story altogether.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2012, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 28, 2012, 02:46:12 PM
what the fuck is all this nerd whinefest again?

That's my question, too.  What the fuck are you whining about?

QuoteHaven't you realized what's happening? They took a great book and turned into a great TV series.

That was more true of the first season, IMO.  Here, they too a good book and made it into a great TV season (though not one without problems).

QuoteSince these two are completely, and I do mean completely different forms of entertainment, they made changes to make the TV series work without sacrificing the storyline.
They have been great in this, balancing on a tiny edge between failing as a TV series and abandoning the novels. They could have fucked it up so many ways. They haven't.

True enough, so I don't understand why you are whining.  Even the parts I found less satisfactory can be explained by budget concerns, which don't impact a book nearly so much.

QuoteThen I come here and see a debate about how the defensive works of KL should look like. They should look like, well, whatever. It is an imaginary city in an imaginary land, standing there among dragons, undead, and shapeshifters.

Don't understand the whining here.  Why can't people discuss what they think a city with the background of the imaginary KL would have in the way of defenses, given some knowledge of history?  Why does it offend you that others might enjoy such a discussion?  Did somebody piss in your Wheaties?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 04:08:42 PM
Quote
Then I come here and see a debate about how the defensive works of KL should look like. They should look like, well, whatever. It is an imaginary city in an imaginary land, standing there among dragons, undead, and shapeshifters.
I have nothing but respect and love for GoT, and unlike Grumbles I think the second season has been far better than the first.  I just wondered about some of the details of the siege, and I was-if anything-looking for someone to prove me wrong, as I'm pretty sure there were people involved in this production who know a lot more about Medieval sieges than I do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2012, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 04:08:42 PM
...unlike Grumbles I think the second season has been far better than the first.

I don't disagree with the contention that the second season has been better, but I would argue that the first book was much better than the second (though the third was also better than the second, so it isn't a steady decline of writing or anything).  My primary beef with the second season was the skimping on story in episode eight, to preserve cash for episode nine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 28, 2012, 05:05:34 PM
I'm annoyed that at the opening of the last episode, the title graphics showed all the regular places, but in fact action only took place at King's Landing. They ruined that neat concept they had going. :mad: ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 28, 2012, 05:25:47 PM
Boom!

http://i.imgur.com/nQrIi.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/nQrIi.jpg)

Love the look on the pyromancer's face.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 28, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Hmmm.

I was actually a bit dissapointed in the Blackwater episode. I know they spent extra money on it, and there were certainly some very cool scenes, but...well, it still looked small.

ALl the fighting was outside one gate, you never got the feeling there were more than a couple hundred men total involved.

Still a lot of fun, but not as epic as I hoped for...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 28, 2012, 08:03:31 PM
I really don't like the armor they wear in the show.
Why couldn't they go for classical medieval armor?
Those lanister helmets are ridicoulus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 28, 2012, 09:06:22 PM
I understand the Tyrell's are angry at Stannis but what's their angle of backing the Lannister?

@Siegy, you are asking for things that are not possible to do with a tv show even if you threw unlimited funds at it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on May 28, 2012, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 28, 2012, 09:06:22 PM
I understand the Tyrell's are angry at Stannis but what's their angle of backing the Lannister?

@Siegy, you are asking for things that are not possible to do with a tv show even if you threw unlimited funds at it.

Well Renly is dead and Margaery is young and single. She'd probably be the power behind the throne so any future heirs would serve Tyrell interests. Even if they didn't hate Stannis for killing Renly, he's already married and wouldn't ever ditch his wife. Robb can't even defend his own capital and doesn't have any aspirations for the Iron Throne so that makes him a poor prospect. Joffery's their best ticket to power. Offing Sansa for treason or sending her to a convent of the seven, or whatever you do to get rid of women in Game of Thrones-land seems like something Joffery wouldn't hesitate to do if it means he wins the war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 28, 2012, 10:11:38 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 28, 2012, 08:03:31 PM
I really don't like the armor they wear in the show.
Why couldn't they go for classical medieval armor?
Those lanister helmets are ridicoulus.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_aAUT2jb6ybY%2FTUPTCq3pGuI%2FAAAAAAAAAlU%2F9CcsNawuN5A%2Fs1600%2Fsamurai-armor.jpg&hash=d69f38bbc2f606c6f64455fe48f8a361a28f091a)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 11:28:02 PM
One thing to know about the Tyrells if you haven't read the books is that the head of their house is very ambitious but not very clever - The Tyrells are also thought of as upstarts as far as noble lineages go - the opportunity for them to have a queen on the throne and be related to the future king of Westeros is too tempting to pass up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 11:32:45 PM
I wonder what they're going to do with Tyrion. In the book he was pretty hideously disfigured, but it seems he just got a little slash across the face. I don't think they'll remove his nose-- it would probably be too expensive for the cosmetics and such (or could interfere with the acting, expressions and such). Maybe they'll just give him a scar across his face.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 28, 2012, 11:36:34 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 11:28:02 PM
One thing to know about the Tyrells if you haven't read the books is that the head of their house is very ambitious but not very clever - The Tyrells are also thought of as upstarts as far as noble lineages go - the opportunity for them to have a queen on the throne and be related to the future king of Westeros is too tempting to pass up.
The Tyrells have ruled The Reach for 300 years. The standards of Westeros are skewed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 28, 2012, 11:40:33 PM
300 years is nothing - the other families have ruled since Mythological ages in Westeros.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 29, 2012, 12:12:10 AM
Didn't the Targaryens rule for 300 years?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 29, 2012, 12:18:46 AM
Indeed they did!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2012, 01:10:15 AM
So has anyone yet trolled people who didnt read the book by telling them Tyrion dies on the 9th episode much like Ned did in season 1?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2012, 01:14:23 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 29, 2012, 12:12:10 AM
Didn't the Targaryens rule for 300 years?

But Targaryens had dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 29, 2012, 01:14:55 AM
Not likely anyone would fall for that, Tyrion's wound on the show didn't look remotely like something you could die from.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 29, 2012, 01:31:27 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 29, 2012, 01:14:55 AM
Not likely anyone would fall for that, Tyrion's wound on the show didn't look remotely like something you could die from.
Can't amputate his face if the wound goes gangrenous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 29, 2012, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Hmmm.

I was actually a bit dissapointed in the Blackwater episode. I know they spent extra money on it, and there were certainly some very cool scenes, but...well, it still looked small.

ALl the fighting was outside one gate, you never got the feeling there were more than a couple hundred men total involved.

Still a lot of fun, but not as epic as I hoped for...
In the book, I never got the impression the battle was elsewhere but at the mud gate.  Most of Stannis fleet was destroyed and he landed a small force somewhere he could.  Wich probably explains the low number of troops and the lack of siege engines.  Or he intended to build them on place, during a long siege.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 29, 2012, 10:34:27 AM
Not sure if this has been posted before. it probably has.

But it explains all the nudity on the show.

http://www.tvfanatic.com/videos/game-of-thrones-skit-on-saturday-night-live/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 29, 2012, 04:11:47 PM
Book 3 will be two season long. and new characters revealed.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/29/game-of-throne-season-3-cast/


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2012, 04:21:07 PM
 :)

The Blackfish, Jojen and Meera, Mance Rayder, Beric and Thoros and the Queen of Thorns herself? Awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2012, 04:30:56 PM
Blackfyre!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 29, 2012, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Hmmm.

I was actually a bit dissapointed in the Blackwater episode. I know they spent extra money on it, and there were certainly some very cool scenes, but...well, it still looked small.

ALl the fighting was outside one gate, you never got the feeling there were more than a couple hundred men total involved.

Still a lot of fun, but not as epic as I hoped for...
In the book, I never got the impression the battle was elsewhere but at the mud gate.  Most of Stannis fleet was destroyed and he landed a small force somewhere he could.  Wich probably explains the low number of troops and the lack of siege engines.  Or he intended to build them on place, during a long siege.

Stannis' dudes made a bridge across the Blackwater by tying the galleys together.
They could have potentially crossed the entire force on the south side of the river, if it werent for Tyrion's charge.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 30, 2012, 01:48:42 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 29, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
Stannis' dudes made a bridge across the Blackwater by tying the galleys together.
They could have potentially crossed the entire force on the south side of the river, if it werent for Tyrion's charge.


ah, yes, I remember now.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 30, 2012, 07:00:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Hmmm.

I was actually a bit dissapointed in the Blackwater episode. I know they spent extra money on it, and there were certainly some very cool scenes, but...well, it still looked small.

ALl the fighting was outside one gate, you never got the feeling there were more than a couple hundred men total involved.

Still a lot of fun, but not as epic as I hoped for...

It certainly wasn't what they built us up for, but was fine for a TV show.  The fleet blowing up was certainly well-done, if a bit too long.  Best line of the show so far (though tipped ahead of time by the preview):  "Those are brave men knocking at the gate.... let's go kill them!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2012, 08:39:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2012, 07:00:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Hmmm.

I was actually a bit dissapointed in the Blackwater episode. I know they spent extra money on it, and there were certainly some very cool scenes, but...well, it still looked small.

ALl the fighting was outside one gate, you never got the feeling there were more than a couple hundred men total involved.

Still a lot of fun, but not as epic as I hoped for...

:huh:

It's a good line but isn't "Any man dies with a clean sword, I'll rape his fucking corpse" better?

It certainly wasn't what they built us up for, but was fine for a TV show.  The fleet blowing up was certainly well-done, if a bit too long.  Best line of the show so far (though tipped ahead of time by the preview):  "Those are brave men knocking at the gate.... let's go kill them!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 30, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
learn to quote you fucking wetback.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2012, 08:41:31 PM
Quote from: katmai on May 30, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
learn to quote you fucking wetback.

Fuck you greaseball
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 30, 2012, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2012, 08:39:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2012, 07:00:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Hmmm.

I was actually a bit dissapointed in the Blackwater episode. I know they spent extra money on it, and there were certainly some very cool scenes, but...well, it still looked small.

ALl the fighting was outside one gate, you never got the feeling there were more than a couple hundred men total involved.

Still a lot of fun, but not as epic as I hoped for...

:huh:

It's a good line but isn't "Any man dies with a clean sword, I'll rape his fucking corpse" better?

It certainly wasn't what they built us up for, but was fine for a TV show.  The fleet blowing up was certainly well-done, if a bit too long.  Best line of the show so far (though tipped ahead of time by the preview):  "Those are brave men knocking at the gate.... let's go kill them!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2012, 09:22:00 PM
The Milagro Beaner War.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 12:13:21 AM
Just saw the mud gate episode.  You guys spoiled it for me with all the hype.

Not even one guy could make it up the ladder with Stannis?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on May 31, 2012, 02:59:19 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 12:13:21 AM
Just saw the mud gate episode.  You guys spoiled it for me with all the hype.

Not even one guy could make it up the ladder with Stannis?

He had flatulence issues.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 01:45:15 PM
Was there some back story to the Golden Guardian dude who sliced the imps face?

I've only seen 3 episodes this season so I've missed oodles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 31, 2012, 01:52:12 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 01:45:15 PM
Was there some back story to the Golden Guardian dude who sliced the imps face?

I've only seen 3 episodes this season so I've missed oodles.

His name is Mandon Moore and he is one of the Kings Guard and carries a White Cloak. He came to kings landing with Jon Arryn and his family is from The Vale of Arryn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 01:54:45 PM
That's the Principality of Titsuck, right?  So he was like a spy?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:01:34 PM
No, he is a Whitecloak. Why a Whitecloak would try to murder the Kings Hand in the middle of a battle is a very good question though. I wonder who might have put him up to such a thing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 31, 2012, 02:05:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 01:54:45 PM
That's the Principality of Titsuck, right?  So he was like a spy?

Yes, Principality of titsuck. He came to Kings Landing with Jon Arryn (the guy who was already dead in episode 1 of season 1 and was ward to Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon and started the rebellion that put Robert on the throne and he was Roberts hand untill he was apparently poisoned by lannisters; or so Lysa Arryn tells Catelyn Stark in her letter; and Ned was needed as a replacement) and was one of the new Kings Guards made after Roberts Rebellion succeeded.

Us bookreaders don't know what he was and who he worked for. All we know is

1 - he came from the Vale of Arryn with Jon Arryn
2 - he had an excellent pokerface
3 - he tried to kill Tyrion
4 - was killed by Tyrions squire Podrick Payne (nephew of Illyn Payne the guy who had his toung cut out and frightens Sansa (as opposed to the guy who had his face burned off and frightens sansa and the guy who killed her father and frightens sansa))

The best guess we have is that he worked for Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:07:21 PM
I always thought Cersei put him up to it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 31, 2012, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:01:34 PM
No, he is a Whitecloak. Why a Whitecloak would try to murder the Kings Hand in the middle of a battle is a very good question though. I wonder who might have put him up to such a thing?

My list of candidates includes

Cersei, Littlefinger, Illyrio Mopatis, Varys, Robb Stark, Dany Targaryen, The Great Other, Doran Martell, Stannis, Balon Greyjoy, Davos Seaworth, Melisandre....

oh bugger, I think the list of people not trying to kill him is shorter...

Jamie, Tommen and Bronn - though Bronn quite possibly might not be on the "not trying to kill him" list.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 31, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:01:34 PM
No, he is a Whitecloak. Why a Whitecloak would try to murder the Kings Hand in the middle of a battle is a very good question though. I wonder who might have put him up to such a thing?

That sort of logical thinking won't get us anywhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 02:10:58 PM
Grazie Puff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:11:03 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about Tommen. Him and Myrcella are not nearly so innocent as they seem!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 31, 2012, 02:13:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:07:21 PM
I always thought Cersei put him up to it.
Same
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 31, 2012, 02:13:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:11:03 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about Tommen. Him and Myrcella are not nearly so innocent as they seem!
But tommen loves kittens. that makes him a good guy!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 31, 2012, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2012, 02:11:03 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about Tommen. Him and Myrcella are not nearly so innocent as they seem!

No way on tommen, if Tommen had ordered it he would have sent Ser Pounce not Ser Mandon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 31, 2012, 05:31:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 12:13:21 AM
Just saw the mud gate episode.  You guys spoiled it for me with all the hype.

Not even one guy could make it up the ladder with Stannis?

You ever try climbing up a ladder with some dudes throwing styrofoam balls at you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 31, 2012, 05:49:01 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 31, 2012, 05:31:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2012, 12:13:21 AM
Just saw the mud gate episode.  You guys spoiled it for me with all the hype.

Not even one guy could make it up the ladder with Stannis?

You ever try climbing up a ladder with some dudes throwing styrofoam balls at you?

I did; and broke a fingernail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 31, 2012, 08:31:35 PM
His name always reminded me of Mandy Moore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 31, 2012, 09:54:29 PM
SUGE, I used to be in love with Mandy Moore  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 01, 2012, 03:13:47 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 31, 2012, 09:54:29 PM
SUGE, I used to be in love with Mandy Moore  :blush:

She's so wholesome and lovely. :wub:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2012, 12:28:40 PM
Caught a few more episodes last night.

OK, next question is, what's the scoop on that dude in Lannister armor, speaks with a Frenchish accent, who helps Ned's younger daughter escape? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 03, 2012, 01:11:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2012, 12:28:40 PM
Caught a few more episodes last night.

OK, next question is, what's the scoop on that dude in Lannister armor, speaks with a Frenchish accent, who helps Ned's younger daughter escape?
He was one of the three men in the cage wagon who was being taken to the Wall.  Obviously, one of the men Ned gave to the watch from the jails of Kings Landing, and obviously one of the more dangerous ones, since he was in a cage.

His name is Jaqen H'ghar, and he is from the city of Braavos across the sea.  I won't spoil anything about him, but he is clearly both dangerous and honorable (by his own lights).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
Grazie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 04, 2012, 08:59:02 AM
So nobody watched the grand finale? :huh:

Turned into Walking Dead there at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
I didn't like the zombie scene as the ending for the season. I would rather have had them end by introducing Mance Rayder and having a dialogue with Jon Snow about the white walkers, rather than explicitly showing the Lich King and his zombie army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 04, 2012, 10:39:40 AM
That wouldn't have the same season-ending cliffhanger effect though. It was okay.

I guess we now know that Tywin Lannister's horse doesn't shit gold, either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maladict on June 04, 2012, 10:54:17 AM
Finally got round to watching this (season 1).
That dwarf looks an awful lot like Hugh Laurie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 04, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
Huh.

The House of the Undying was, well, pretty badly done all the way around.

It really did not make any sense - my wife (who only read the first book) had no freaking idea what that was all about.

1. Daeny goes into tower.
2. Daeny wanders about in snow. Snow?
3. Daeny sees her dead husband and dead child. So sad.
4. ???
5. Daeny is chained up? WTF? Did we miss something?
6. Daeny's dragon burn up the warlock. What? How? Why did he just stand there while they kill him? Huh?
7. Daeny is free! Yeah!

The entire episode felt very, very rushed, and yet they spent a (relative) lot of time on stuff that seemed superfluous, like Robb's conversation with his mother, and Stannis' with Melisandre.

The overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".

Compared to the way season 1 ended, this was hugely disappointing, IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on June 04, 2012, 11:16:44 AM
Did she watch the previous episode? I haven't read the books but it seemed pretty clear to me what was going on. If you missed that part in episode 9 then it might have been confusing.

I agree with you on the whole Warlock tower sequence. I mean he does explain the dragons appear more powerful with her near them, so I guess it was the first time they could really spit napalm. But the way they killed the Warlock was so anti-climatic. He just stands there and takes it. Do some magic! Shit, the last time you turned into 10 people and cut 10 throats simultaneously. I guess they burned their CGI budget on Blackwater.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 04, 2012, 04:46:47 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m4ibplUhQq1qlv0r8o1_500.jpg&hash=81b531986f2fa84a0c13969febe82bb23b2a5d58)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2012, 08:23:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
Huh.

The House of the Undying was, well, pretty badly done all the way around.

It really did not make any sense - my wife (who only read the first book) had no freaking idea what that was all about.

1. Daeny goes into tower.
2. Daeny wanders about in snow. Snow?
3. Daeny sees her dead husband and dead child. So sad.
4. ???
5. Daeny is chained up? WTF? Did we miss something?
6. Daeny's dragon burn up the warlock. What? How? Why did he just stand there while they kill him? Huh?
7. Daeny is free! Yeah!

The overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".
The dragons are powering the warlocks magic and they are more powerful if Dany is there. The warlocks are casting illusions to make her want to say at the tower. Offering her the Iron throne and her husband. That doesn't work so they chain her with magic. The Dragons are as I mentioned above the source of the warlock's magic, that's why he can't defend against their flame.

The Qorin-John fight makes perfect sense if you remember their interactions in episode 8.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 04, 2012, 08:30:11 PM
This episode seems to bring us at the end of book 3 - which was the last I read... Although we didn't see the Red Wedding.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 04, 2012, 08:32:49 PM
:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 04, 2012, 08:36:05 PM
As I said... it's all hazy.  I haven't read those books in more than 10 years.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 04, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
Why would you think the end of season 2 was the end of book 3?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 04, 2012, 09:41:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
Huh.

The House of the Undying was, well, pretty badly done all the way around.

Yep.  Ditto the Jon scene with Qhorin.  While briefly explained, there was zero emotional heft in the death of Qhorin as there should have been.  Overall, the episode was a fairly weak example of the season though it did have a few saving graces.  I thought the Stannis/Melisandre scene was excellent, especially Dillane's portion and the subtle musical touches during the flame-gazing. 

Tyrion's scene was whatever, Roz and Varys seemingly pointless (they'll get around to using her for something of meaning any day now...), Arya's perfunctory, but neat, Robb's wedding abbreviated, but important...

Overall, a pretty whimpery way to end the season, aside from the introduction of HBO's The Walking Dead, which I thought was pretty well handled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2012, 11:14:10 PM
Producers signed on with HBO through season 4  :showoff:

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/06/season-two-finale-tops-4mil-viewers-sets-new-series-high/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2012, 03:53:20 AM
You know you're a books reader when....
At Robbs wedding I was just going "Huh? Why is he having a new gods wedding when he follows the old gods and she follows some foreign gods?"

I think he follows the old anyway....pretty sure it was just Sansa picked up her mothers new ones, ould be mis-remembering
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 05, 2012, 04:01:33 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 05, 2012, 03:53:20 AM
You know you're a books reader when....
At Robbs wedding I was just going "Huh? Why is he having a new gods wedding when he follows the old gods and she follows some foreign gods?"

I think he follows the old anyway....pretty sure it was just Sansa picked up her mothers new ones, ould be mis-remembering

1 - Robb follows both the old and the new. His mother is very 7 friendly.
2 - I'm baffled that a 7 marriage happens in front of a tree. Surely it would happen in a Sept. The old rites were in front of trees so the new ones must either take over the trees or do something different, they did something different.
3 - I'm annoyed that Shae and Jeyne are made some sort of eastern exotic enchantresses with fuzzy backgrounds.

That said, the season is over and I return to saving all my rage for Martin's high colesterol diet and procrastination.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2012, 04:35:54 AM
Dani in the warlocks tower was both cool and dissapointing.
Dissapointing in that yeah, the wee dragons having such super fire power and killing the wizard in such a way- though it does sort of make sense, it being magical dragon fire and not real fire, that it would kill him so easily.
Also the number of doors she looked through was severely cut off. This would have been the perfect opportunity to show an Aerys or Rhaegar flashback. Also the lack of the cryptic Red Wedding prediction was a pain. Though the prediction they did show was rather cool- a ruined throne room at King's Landing consumed by winter. Presumably a very bad possible future where the white walkers win. I didn't quite get her then leaving the wall...I presme they wanted to use that special effects shot again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 05, 2012, 04:50:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 05, 2012, 04:35:54 AM
Dani in the warlocks tower was both cool and dissapointing.
Dissapointing in that yeah, the wee dragons having such super fire power and killing the wizard in such a way- though it does sort of make sense, it being magical dragon fire and not real fire, that it would kill him so easily.
Also the number of doors she looked through was severely cut off. This would have been the perfect opportunity to show an Aerys or Rhaegar flashback. Also the lack of the cryptic Red Wedding prediction was a pain. Though the prediction they did show was rather cool- a ruined throne room at King's Landing consumed by winter. Presumably a very bad possible future where the white walkers win. I didn't quite get her then leaving the wall...I presme they wanted to use that special effects shot again.

I can't but help think that doing the full house of the undying from the books would take a 2 hours episode just for dany. I think D&D did this as well as could be expected. Dany will leave Qarth with a bit more cash than she arrived, presumably a small ship (given the discussion between dany and jorah when they raid Xaro Xoan Daxos house) and the Storm of Swords pt1 season will start with Dany getting on a boat with her little khalasar headed for pentos and having Jorah arguing for a detour to Yeetee to pick up some unsullied.

The warlocks are pissed and want revenge, so with Xaro Xoan Daxos and The Quaithe still has plans for her. She is on a boat headed west. That was the end result of the Qarth episode in the books.

Martin keeps using the metaphor of a road trip to LA where he knows his destination and major stops but is flexible about which road he will take to explain the books he is writing and it seems D&D have taken that metaphor and run with it. They are keeping with the major touch stones of the story but are playing with the details between to make the show work better on TV and possibly to give the bookwalkers eastereggs.

Just thinking about Jeyne. What matters with her is that she is noble, so must be married and can't just be cast off, that she has magical blood and her maternal line has seeresses. As long as she fills those criteria she can be presented differently. If that saves screen time, location costs, staff costs and lowers the requirements of the attention and comprehension of the audience then they can do that safely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 05, 2012, 05:04:40 AM
Quote from: katmai on June 04, 2012, 08:32:49 PM
:huh:

Seconded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 05, 2012, 11:50:03 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 05, 2012, 04:50:39 AM

Just thinking about Jeyne. What matters with her is that she is noble, so must be married and can't just be cast off, that she has magical blood and her maternal line has seeresses. As long as she fills those criteria she can be presented differently. If that saves screen time, location costs, staff costs and lowers the requirements of the attention and comprehension of the audience then they can do that safely.

I have to watch again because I missed it, but is she actually Jeyne Westerling?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 05, 2012, 11:51:11 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 05, 2012, 11:50:03 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 05, 2012, 04:50:39 AM

Just thinking about Jeyne. What matters with her is that she is noble, so must be married and can't just be cast off, that she has magical blood and her maternal line has seeresses. As long as she fills those criteria she can be presented differently. If that saves screen time, location costs, staff costs and lowers the requirements of the attention and comprehension of the audience then they can do that safely.

I have to watch again because I missed it, but is she actually Jeyne Westerling?

No, she is Talisa Maege
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 05, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
Maegyr, actually.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Talisa

I really thought it was Jeyne Westerling disguised as a commoner.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 05, 2012, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
Maegyr, actually.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Talisa

I really thought it was Jeyne Westerling disguised as a commoner.

Is she a Tamasite Gypsy? Never!

There was a suggestion of going to the Crag with Robb but iirc she avoided the trip despite her knowing what the Crag's maester had to give to Robb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2012, 05:38:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
Maegyr, actually.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Talisa

I really thought it was Jeyne Westerling disguised as a commoner.

Same.

As it is i the TV series, there isn't a reason why Robb cannot just keep her as a concubine.  It was her birth and status in Robb's worldview that made him marry Jeyne Westerling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 05, 2012, 05:51:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
Huh.

The House of the Undying was, well, pretty badly done all the way around.

It really did not make any sense - my wife (who only read the first book) had no freaking idea what that was all about.

1. Daeny goes into tower.
2. Daeny wanders about in snow. Snow?
3. Daeny sees her dead husband and dead child. So sad.
4. ???
5. Daeny is chained up? WTF? Did we miss something?
6. Daeny's dragon burn up the warlock. What? How? Why did he just stand there while they kill him? Huh?
7. Daeny is free! Yeah!

The entire episode felt very, very rushed, and yet they spent a (relative) lot of time on stuff that seemed superfluous, like Robb's conversation with his mother, and Stannis' with Melisandre.

I am gonna go against the tide and disagree.  The scenes between Robb and his mother, and Stannis and Melisandre, were essential to set up what comes next.  Stannis won't give up, despite suffering what would by any logic be a crippling blow.  Why?  Because he becomes a true believer.  Robb will piss off the Freys.  Why?  because he is truly in love.  These things needed to be said.

I also thought the House of the Undying bit was about as well-done as you could expect in TV.  Dany is given the chance to pretend she is with her beloved, and turns it down (in spite of the fact that the vision shows her hopes are futile as the Iron Throne room is destroyed and Westeros enveloped in winter - some of the worst fake snow I have seen on TV, btw),  and turns it down under the call of her dragons.  As the ep shows, Targaryans with dragons are unbeatable.

QuoteThe overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".

Agree.  The Tyrion chitchat business and Dany moaning in ep 8 could have been spent setting this up.  Also, how did Qorin draw the breath to say his long dying line with a sword through his lungs?  That was kinda silly.

QuoteCompared to the way season 1 ended, this was hugely disappointing, IMO.

I thought it was a good ep overall, with some questionable directional choices.  The zombies at the end were almost laughably unscary.  After the buildup they had been given, seeing them clearly was anticlimactic to the max.

Of course the ep couldn't match "they killed my nigger Ned!"  Once you play that card, it never has the same impact again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2012, 08:46:25 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 05, 2012, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
Maegyr, actually.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Talisa

I really thought it was Jeyne Westerling disguised as a commoner.

Is she a Tamasite Gypsy? Never!

There was a suggestion of going to the Crag with Robb but iirc she avoided the trip despite her knowing what the Crag's maester had to give to Robb.
The Crag incident is what makes me think she really is Jeyne. She's just in on the plot rather than another innocent bystander here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 05, 2012, 09:45:49 PM
QuoteThe overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".
Yes.  Clearly it is better for all characters in all dramatic works to have clear, singular motivations for every single action at all times. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 05, 2012, 09:45:49 PM
QuoteThe overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".
Yes.  Clearly it is better for all characters in all dramatic works to have clear, singular motivations for every single action at all times. 

When the action in question involves a main character sticking a sword into his friend, yeah, it probably should have some singular motivation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 05, 2012, 10:02:11 PM
Yeah, I was confused by that. They seemed to go for the "you called my mother a whore" motive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:04:23 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 05, 2012, 10:02:11 PM
Yeah, I was confused by that. They seemed to go for the "you called my mother a whore" motive.

Apparently there really doesn't need to be a motive. Jon maybe is French, and is all "Fuck the world! Life is shit. I shall kill my friend. Why? Because fuck you, that is why! Give me another cigarette"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 05, 2012, 10:06:01 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:04:23 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 05, 2012, 10:02:11 PM
Yeah, I was confused by that. They seemed to go for the "you called my mother a whore" motive.

Apparently there really doesn't need to be a motive. Jon maybe is French, and is all "Fuck the world! Life is shit. I shall kill my friend. Why? Because fuck you, that is why! Give me another cigarette"

I never saw it that way until now. Yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 05, 2012, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 05, 2012, 09:45:49 PM
QuoteThe overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".
Yes.  Clearly it is better for all characters in all dramatic works to have clear, singular motivations for every single action at all times. 

When the action in question involves a main character sticking a sword into his friend, yeah, it probably should have some singular motivation.

I think it is pretty clearly more complicated than that.  Jon is already attracted to Ygriette.  I think there is already some temptation to turn, and having Halfhand scream obscenities about his mother was probably so effective at goading him that it, you know, actually made him really angry. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:29:53 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 05, 2012, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 05, 2012, 09:45:49 PM
QuoteThe overall bit with John was not well done either, IMO. In the books, it is clear why Qorin and John are fighting, and what Qorin is trying to accomplish. The show seemed confusing - again, my wife was all "Why is Qorin attacking him? How does he know John is a traitor? What?".
Yes.  Clearly it is better for all characters in all dramatic works to have clear, singular motivations for every single action at all times. 

When the action in question involves a main character sticking a sword into his friend, yeah, it probably should have some singular motivation.

I think it is pretty clearly more complicated than that.  Jon is already attracted to Ygriette.  I think there is already some temptation to turn, and having Halfhand scream obscenities about his mother was probably so effective at goading him that it, you know, actually made him really angry. 

Yeah, except that makes Jon into nothing more than a traitor and a murderer.

Which is NOT who Jon Snow is, unless the show is looking to take him in a radically different direction from the book.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 06, 2012, 12:32:43 AM
I thought the show was pretty clear in that Jon goes along with Qhorin's plan, and Qhorin is yelling insults for the benefit of the wildlings so they accept Jon's turning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 06, 2012, 12:42:49 AM
The House of the Undying sucked.

I'm glad we got to see that whore again though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2012, 12:45:10 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 06, 2012, 12:32:43 AM
I thought the show was pretty clear in that Jon goes along with Qhorin's plan, and Qhorin is yelling insults for the benefit of the wildlings so they accept Jon's turning.


I think that is what they were going for, I just don't think it was that clear.

This was very important in the book, especially given Jons role later on - there was never any doubt where his allegiances lay, even if it was very hard for him to deal with.

The show (perhaps intentionally?) makes this much less clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 12:57:51 AM
I doubt it was intentional, but I'm open to the idea.

What they do with season 3 will confirm or deny that proposition.  They've had to cover roughly 65 chapters per season thus far, but by splitting book 3 into two pieces, they now have to cover, what, 40 per?  It will be interesting to see how they fill the time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 01:49:27 AM
Just caught a rerun of the finale.

I was more or less OK with the tiny dragons napalming the wizard.

What I didn't get was Theon getting sandbagged by his men, then the men going home...right through the 500 beseiging dudes??  And why did cripple boy and crew take off?  The bad guys were gone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 01:59:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 01:49:27 AM
What I didn't get was Theon getting sandbagged by his men, then the men going home...right through the 500 beseiging dudes??  And why did cripple boy and crew take off?  The bad guys were gone.

The former will no doubt be explained by a scene with Theon next season.  It's explained more thoroughly in the books and I suspect that they didn't show the outcome there because they wanted to hold off on casting a very important secondary character until they had to (season 3).

The latter is clearly explained by Maester Luwin when he speaks with the Bran and friends.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2012, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 01:49:27 AM
Just caught a rerun of the finale.

I was more or less OK with the tiny dragons napalming the wizard.

What I didn't get was Theon getting sandbagged by his men, then the men going home...right through the 500 beseiging dudes??  And why did cripple boy and crew take off?  The bad guys were gone.

Robb gave the instruction of let those people go if they hand over Theon.

And if you read the books, you know the answer for the rest. I am not spoilering.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 02:02:06 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 01:59:09 AM
The latter is clearly explained by Maester Luwin when he speaks with the Bran and friends.

His explanation doesn't make any sense.  Sure, they shouldn't head south because they could get bushwacked by Lannisters.  But what's the risk of staying in Winterfell?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2012, 02:07:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 02:02:06 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 01:59:09 AM
The latter is clearly explained by Maester Luwin when he speaks with the Bran and friends.

His explanation doesn't make any sense.  Sure, they shouldn't head south because they could get bushwacked by Lannisters.  But what's the risk of staying in Winterfell?

you'll see in Season 3 :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2012, 04:19:27 AM
Quote
There was a suggestion of going to the Crag with Robb but iirc she avoided the trip despite her knowing what the Crag's maester had to give to Robb.
What did the maester have? I can't recall that bit
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2012, 04:26:43 AM
me neither
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2012, 04:37:34 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2012, 04:19:27 AM
Quote
There was a suggestion of going to the Crag with Robb but iirc she avoided the trip despite her knowing what the Crag's maester had to give to Robb.
What did the maester have? I can't recall that bit

medical supplies
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2012, 06:24:25 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 01:49:27 AM
Just caught a rerun of the finale.

I was more or less OK with the tiny dragons napalming the wizard.

What I didn't get was Theon getting sandbagged by his men, then the men going home...right through the 500 beseiging dudes??
And why did cripple boy and crew take off?  The bad guys were gone.
Rob offered mercy for all if they gave up Theon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2012, 06:26:21 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2012, 06:24:25 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 01:49:27 AM
Just caught a rerun of the finale.

I was more or less OK with the tiny dragons napalming the wizard.

What I didn't get was Theon getting sandbagged by his men, then the men going home...right through the 500 beseiging dudes??
And why did cripple boy and crew take off?  The bad guys were gone.
Rob offered mercy for all if they gave up Theon.

Robb may have, but I'm pretty sure Ramsey didn't even on TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
I don't buy that they gave up Theon, Balon would go mental at them when they got back to the Iron Islands. I guess that they wanted to sneak back to the shore, instead of going down in a blaze of glory in Winterfell, and Theon was an obstacle for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 06:49:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2012, 06:26:21 AM
Robb may have, but I'm pretty sure Ramsey didn't even on TV.

There is no Ramsey yet in the TV series. The fall of Winterfell occurs in a different, simpler fashion in the show.  There is no reason to believe that Ramsey wouldn't have carried out his father's orders and thus made a deal with the Ironmen.

I don't understand how this could be a mystery to anyone.  It was laid out pretty explicitly.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 02:02:06 AM
His explanation doesn't make any sense.  Sure, they shouldn't head south because they could get bushwacked by Lannisters.  But what's the risk of staying in Winterfell?

Who do you think burned Winterfell?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 06:52:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
I don't buy that they gave up Theon, Balon would go mental at them when they got back to the Iron Islands. I guess that they wanted to sneak back to the shore, instead of going down in a blaze of glory in Winterfell, and Theon was an obstacle for that.

Balon would go mental if they told what really happened.  If they lied, then he wouldn't.  Faced with the choice of dying on the spot or maybe making their lies stick, they chose the latter.  It was a violation of their codes, perhaps, but we find that sort of thing all the time in the histories.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2012, 06:55:03 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 06, 2012, 06:26:21 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2012, 06:24:25 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 01:49:27 AM
Just caught a rerun of the finale.

I was more or less OK with the tiny dragons napalming the wizard.

What I didn't get was Theon getting sandbagged by his men, then the men going home...right through the 500 beseiging dudes??
And why did cripple boy and crew take off?  The bad guys were gone.
Rob offered mercy for all if they gave up Theon.

Robb may have, but I'm pretty sure Ramsey didn't even on TV.
Ironmen don't know that Ramsey will backstab them though.

^^^
Grumbler, Roose Bolton said his bastard is in command. They haven't introduced him to the audience yet, but he's there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 06:52:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
I don't buy that they gave up Theon, Balon would go mental at them when they got back to the Iron Islands. I guess that they wanted to sneak back to the shore, instead of going down in a blaze of glory in Winterfell, and Theon was an obstacle for that.

Balon would go mental if they told what really happened.  If they lied, then he wouldn't.  Faced with the choice of dying on the spot or maybe making their lies stick, they chose the latter.  It was a violation of their codes, perhaps, but we find that sort of thing all the time in the histories.

If they gave up Theon to the Northmen Balon would find out sooner or later, I don't think that's a safe route. My bet would be on them being in cahoots with Theon's sister, which visited Winterfell and advised them to give up the fortress and run away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 07:00:22 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 06, 2012, 06:55:03 AM
Grumbler, Roose Bolton said his bastard is in command. They haven't introduced him to the audience yet, but he's there.

He says "my bastard" not "Ramsey Snow."  So Ramsey's not in the show yet, exactly as I noted.

The point i am making (and which you appear to be missing) is that the character wasn't shown making a deal with the Ironmen because the character hasn't appeared in the show yet.  The implication clearly is that the deal was made, though, so there is no mystery as to why the Ironmen sapped Theon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 07:05:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 06:59:18 AM
If they gave up Theon to the Northmen Balon would find out sooner or later, I don't think that's a safe route.
Safer than fighting 500 men with 20.  And how would Balon know Theon wasn't captured in battle, as the returning Ironmen would allege?  Who in the North would send that message to Balon, and why would balon believe the message if sent?

QuoteMy bet would be on them being in cahoots with Theon's sister, which visited Winterfell and advised them to give up the fortress and run away.

Why would Theon's sister ride all the way to Winterfell to convince her brother to evacuate, and then conspire with his men to sap him and turn him over to the Northmen?  That doesn't make sense to me.

I think the simplest solution, the one supported by the dialogue, is also the most likely:  Theon's crew cut a deal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 07:11:18 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 07:05:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 06:59:18 AM
If they gave up Theon to the Northmen Balon would find out sooner or later, I don't think that's a safe route.
Safer than fighting 500 men with 20.  And how would Balon know Theon wasn't captured in battle, as the returning Ironmen would allege?  Who in the North would send that message to Balon, and why would balon believe the message if sent?

Sure it's better in the short term, but not in the long term. It's as easy as sending a message to Balon saying that his men were a bunch of rats which delivered Theon to them for their own safety and they'd be sentenced to death on the spot.

QuoteMy bet would be on them being in cahoots with Theon's sister, which visited Winterfell and advised them to give up the fortress and run away.

QuoteWhy would Theon's sister ride all the way to Winterfell to convince her brother to evacuate, and then conspire with his men to sap him and turn him over to the Northmen?  That doesn't make sense to me.

I think the simplest solution, the one supported by the dialogue, is also the most likely:  Theon's crew cut a deal.

Wrong assumption, when did I say that his sister wanted him to be given to the Northmen? They could just carry him unconscious and/or tied up back to the shore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 06, 2012, 07:25:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 02:02:06 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 01:59:09 AM
The latter is clearly explained by Maester Luwin when he speaks with the Bran and friends.

His explanation doesn't make any sense.  Sure, they shouldn't head south because they could get bushwacked by Lannisters.  But what's the risk of staying in Winterfell?

Well without knowing what happens in Book 3, they showed an image of Winterfell burning, so staying there wasn't an option unless they wanted to be barbecued. I'm not sure who burned it though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 08:19:43 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2012, 07:11:18 AM
Sure it's better in the short term, but not in the long term. It's as easy as sending a message to Balon saying that his men were a bunch of rats which delivered Theon to them for their own safety and they'd be sentenced to death on the spot.

So Balon executes Ironmen summarily whenever an enemy says they acted like a bunch of rats?  That's not a very bright man, is it?  How many people have taken advantage of this opportunity to off large numbers of Ironmen without any more effort than sending a raven?

QuoteWrong assumption, when did I say that his sister wanted him to be given to the Northmen? They could just carry him unconscious and/or tied up back to the shore.

Wrong assumption.  How are they going to get through the siege lines at all, let alone lugging a couple of hundred pounds of dead weight, along with their gear?  Theon's sister isn't stupid enough to propose such an inanity, and there is zero evidence in the show for such a wacky scheme.  No, I think the Ironmen cut a deal to escape with their lives, just as the show implies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 06, 2012, 07:25:48 AM
Well without knowing what happens in Book 3, they showed an image of Winterfell burning, so staying there wasn't an option unless they wanted to be barbecued. I'm not sure who burned it though.

The Northmen wouldn't burn it, would they?  After all, they are going to be at the mercy of Ramsey Bolton's men, and so wouldn't want to do anything that looked hostile.

Who does that leave to burn the place, then?   :hmm:

Once you answer that, you know why the Stark kids aren't safe anywhere but with Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on June 06, 2012, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2012, 02:07:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 02:02:06 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 01:59:09 AM
The latter is clearly explained by Maester Luwin when he speaks with the Bran and friends.

His explanation doesn't make any sense.  Sure, they shouldn't head south because they could get bushwacked by Lannisters.  But what's the risk of staying in Winterfell?

you'll see in Season 3 :)

Unsatisfactory answer.  Anyone watching the show who hasn't read the books is thinking "damn, WTF just happened there?  This is stupid".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 06, 2012, 10:38:41 AM
Yes. I don't understand by whom nor why is Winterfell burn to the ground.

Why is running North now an option? What changed?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2012, 10:43:31 AM
Well, you can piece it together if you try.

Winterfell was under siege by Bolton's bastard and his men. The Greyjoy men abandoned it.
Sooo, who could pillage it and destroy it I wonder? Hmmm....

And the conclusion on that leads us to the answer on why the Maester thought it would be a bad idea for the Stark boys to wonder around aimlessly south.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 06, 2012, 10:52:54 AM
This is TV man, we're not supposed to think.
One could just as easily assume the Grey Joys burned Winterfell on their way out (a fairly normal wartime procedure).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 11:31:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 06, 2012, 10:52:54 AM
This is TV man, we're not supposed to think.
One could just as easily assume the Grey Joys burned Winterfell on their way out (a fairly normal wartime procedure).

Actually, a force surrendering under the honors of war was always prohibited from destroying or damaging the fortress.  It is not only NOT a " fairly normal wartime procedure," it wasn't done at all.

So, that leaves us with one possible culprit in the destruction of Winterfell, and that explains fully why sticking around would be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on June 06, 2012, 11:45:51 AM
But it wasn't clear that they were surrendering at all. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 12:49:50 PM
Quote from: PRC on June 06, 2012, 11:45:51 AM
But it wasn't clear that they were surrendering at all.

It was clear to me.  What else would they be doing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on June 06, 2012, 01:34:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 12:49:50 PM
Quote from: PRC on June 06, 2012, 11:45:51 AM
But it wasn't clear that they were surrendering at all.

It was clear to me.  What else would they be doing?

Escaping and bringing Theon back to his father. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2012, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: PRC on June 06, 2012, 01:34:02 PM
Escaping and bringing Theon back to his father. 

They couldn't escape.  That was established in the dialogue between Maester Luwin and Theon.  Luwin could get Theon himself out via a secret passage, but Theon's crew knew nothing about this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 06, 2012, 08:41:04 PM
Theon gets so badly messed up by Bolton, the son. Both Boltons are ruthless and treacherous but the son is stark raving cruel. I'm just waiting for the Boltons to get their due, though you never know how things will turn out in Martin's story.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 09:09:06 PM
Quote from: KRonn on June 06, 2012, 08:41:04 PM
Theon gets so badly messed up by Bolton, the son. Both Boltons are ruthless and treacherous but the son is stark raving cruel. I'm just waiting for the Boltons to get their due, though you never know how things will turn out in Martin's story.

Roose may not get his for some time, book 5 spoilers : [spoiler]but I think the end of book 5 makes it fairly certain that Ramsay is going to bite it.  Stannis is in an excellent position to mete out some justice some time in book 6.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2012, 10:59:26 PM
Winterfell being burned to the ground and the maester dying in the godswood like that and being so scared and telling the boys to go north...
I think what was happening there was meant to be a bit of foreshadowing of Ramsay. I guess he will be quite a major character and a big villain in the next series with his handling of Theon.

Though it did feel kind of....tacky, with the whole "You're the only one who can help Osha!!!". Really exagerating a minor character just because she has a significantish actress.

And we already saw the Ironmen stick him...
So...the effect really wasn't very strong at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 11:03:44 PM
Is Osha the chick with the big eyeballs and eyebrows?

This series has really been a boon for actors and actresses with funky northernish accents, hasn't it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 06, 2012, 11:11:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2012, 11:03:44 PM
Is Osha the chick with the big eyeballs and eyebrows?

This series has really been a boon for actors and actresses with funky northernish accents, hasn't it?

Aye.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2012, 11:36:26 PM
She's actually a rather posh southerner.
She played the multicoloured hair girl in Harry Potter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 06, 2012, 11:48:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2012, 11:36:26 PM
She played the multicoloured hair girl in Harry Potter.
Nope.  Only Harry Potter vet is Lord Frey.  Strange, when you consider how many British actors are on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2012, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 06, 2012, 11:48:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2012, 11:36:26 PM
She played the multicoloured hair girl in Harry Potter.
Nope.  Only Harry Potter vet is Lord Frey.  Strange, when you consider how many British actors are on the show.

:huh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Tena

QuoteShe appeared in the film adaptation of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix as Nymphadora Tonks, a role she reprised in its sequels Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – Part 1 and Part 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 07, 2012, 04:19:16 AM
Did she do a Gollum impression in Harry Potter too, or is that just an affectation she's using for this character only?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2012, 07:16:30 AM
I can't beleive Ser Dontos made it into the show.
Why slash Jeyne Westerling and keep Ser Dontos?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 07, 2012, 07:18:22 AM
I don't remember her in Harry Potter at all. But I find all British women tend to look like each other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2012, 07:23:04 AM
I still don't think Robb Starks blunder with the Westerlings in the books is credible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Octavian on June 07, 2012, 07:26:40 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 07, 2012, 07:18:22 AM
I don't remember her in Harry Potter at all. But I find all British women tend to look like each other.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ffiles%2F2011%2F11%2Fmargaret-thatcher-4_795378c.jpg&hash=e74eb097caba521f3cc9a54c520ed641b14c9d14)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft2.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTJ5DGnP6Q7_QUoLv1P42F_dOUxvS6bCjOqzhFMppIuxUg_ejMNnDSAEIKxSw&hash=19c27f409cbde65270dd48377e609585c3376e1c)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2012, 07:34:10 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 07, 2012, 07:18:22 AM
I don't remember her in Harry Potter at all. But I find all British women tend to look like each other.

Well, she's Spanish, at least genetically.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2012, 07:43:13 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2012, 07:23:04 AM
I still don't think Robb Starks blunder with the Westerlings in the books is credible.

Then Martin must be doing some things right, if his work is as credible as the moon landings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 07, 2012, 08:39:28 AM
Quote from: Octavian on June 07, 2012, 07:26:40 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 07, 2012, 07:18:22 AM
I don't remember her in Harry Potter at all. But I find all British women tend to look like each other.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ffiles%2F2011%2F11%2Fmargaret-thatcher-4_795378c.jpg&hash=e74eb097caba521f3cc9a54c520ed641b14c9d14)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft2.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTJ5DGnP6Q7_QUoLv1P42F_dOUxvS6bCjOqzhFMppIuxUg_ejMNnDSAEIKxSw&hash=19c27f409cbde65270dd48377e609585c3376e1c)

She'll look like Thatcher when she's old.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 09, 2012, 10:49:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:04:23 PM
Apparently there really doesn't need to be a motive. Jon maybe is French, and is all "Fuck the world! Life is shit. I shall kill my friend. Why? Because fuck you, that is why! Give me another cigarette"
I thought it was clear that Halfhand's plan was for Jon to kill him and act as an inside man in the wildling army for the Night's Watch. Remember, Halfhand told Jon that "one man on the inside is worth a thousand on the outside" and that Jon had to be willing to do whatever it took to accomplish that. Right after saying that, Halfhand began shouting insults at Jon and attacking him. Later, when he begins yelling insults again, attacks Jon, and contrives a situation in which Jon will have to kill him to survive, I thought it was pretty clear what was expected of Jon. I do agree that they could have been made it more explicit that Jon was acting persuant to the plan, but I don't think it was unclear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2012, 10:54:03 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 07, 2012, 08:39:28 AM
She'll look like Thatcher when she's old.

Doubt it.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2007%2F08_02%2F012THATCHER_468x577.jpg&hash=e861aad21780e7fbb75171be877159c404dcf31d)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 10, 2012, 02:26:21 AM
Thatcher looked like Helen Hunt.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 10, 2012, 02:27:30 AM
Quote from: Kleves on June 09, 2012, 10:49:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2012, 10:04:23 PM
Apparently there really doesn't need to be a motive. Jon maybe is French, and is all "Fuck the world! Life is shit. I shall kill my friend. Why? Because fuck you, that is why! Give me another cigarette"
I thought it was clear that Halfhand's plan was for Jon to kill him and act as an inside man in the wildling army for the Night's Watch. Remember, Halfhand told Jon that "one man on the inside is worth a thousand on the outside" and that Jon had to be willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish that. Right after saying that, Halfhand began shouting insults at Jon and attacking him. Later, when he beganyelling insults again, attacks Jon, and contrives a situation in which Jon will have to kill him to survive, I think it's pretty clear what is expected of Jon. I do agree that they could have been made it more explicit that Jon was acting persuant to the plan, but I don't think it was unclear.

His last words, whispered to Jon, was also a part of the Night Watch's oath. One must be really dumb not to realize that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 10, 2012, 11:50:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 10, 2012, 02:26:21 AM
Thatcher looked like Helen Hunt.  :hmm:

Yeah...can see that a bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 11, 2012, 05:40:38 PM
Is Brienne the heir of Tarth?
She doesn't have any brothers, right?

If so, I think she is kind of hott.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 11, 2012, 05:40:38 PM
Is Brienne the heir of Tarth?
She doesn't have any brothers, right?

If so, I think she is kind of hott.

All that sexy land. :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 11, 2012, 07:09:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 11, 2012, 05:40:38 PM
Is Brienne the heir of Tarth?
She doesn't have any brothers, right?

If so, I think she is kind of hott.
Don't you feel she's a little too old?  And fat?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 12, 2012, 03:26:05 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffamousmonstersoffilmland.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2Fbrienne.jpg&hash=1bd139f54b614895b1e0ece26b81eaaedc798846)   (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cflongisland.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads%2FWODs%2Fequal_sign.jpg&hash=723239f29395b0a0f7b955e9898e6320e87ea5eb) (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.huffingtonpost.com%2Fgen%2F97774%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=cc4bdb3079e305206981792f2b59d61eb7494685)
[/quote]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2012, 08:00:54 PM
meh, now that Miley's gettin' married Siegy goes 180 degrees on the rebound.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 12, 2012, 09:50:20 PM
I'd like to do the achy breaky with that....


...I mean if she were like 20 years older.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 12, 2012, 09:50:20 PM
I'd like to do the achy breaky with that....


...I mean if she were like 20 years older.

She's legal, that's old enough for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 13, 2012, 04:20:29 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2012, 08:00:54 PM
meh, now that Miley's gettin' married Siegy goes 180 degrees on the rebound.

What?????!!!!!
She is getting married??!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2012, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 13, 2012, 04:20:29 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2012, 08:00:54 PM
meh, now that Miley's gettin' married Siegy goes 180 degrees on the rebound.

What?????!!!!!
She is getting married??!!

Eh, yes..

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2012/06/miley-cyrus-engaged-to-liam-hemsworth/

QuoteSays Miley to People: "I'm so happy to be engaged and look forward to a life of happiness with Liam."

Read more celebrity gossip at: http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2012/06/miley-cyrus-engaged-to-liam-hemsworth/#ixzz1xiRVnmUw
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 13, 2012, 07:26:04 PM
OSSUM

http://www.540wfla.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=425022&article=10198555

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 20, 2012, 01:32:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsI1hFl.jpg&hash=a41ba93b850f2c6413f6e333fb59646a50a0dc2e)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tonitrus on June 20, 2012, 02:04:39 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 10, 2012, 11:50:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 10, 2012, 02:26:21 AM
Thatcher looked like Helen Hunt.  :hmm:

Yeah...can see that a bit.

No.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 20, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
Whoa, Timmay, that's an awesome pic.

Why isin't Rhaegar looking a Robert as the hammer falls?
Was he done already?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 20, 2012, 06:25:42 PM
It must take a lot of skill to fight somebody wielding a sword with a hammer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 20, 2012, 06:37:05 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 20, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
Whoa, Timmay, that's an awesome pic.

Why isin't Rhaegar looking a Robert as the hammer falls?
Was he done already?
As you know, battle's chaotic. Their fight was probably not the duel that story's tell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 20, 2012, 07:02:14 PM
Stories, Tim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2012, 07:22:04 PM
yeah, pretty nice pic Tim :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2012, 05:15:50 AM
 :lmfao:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/game-of-thrones-attack-ads (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/game-of-thrones-attack-ads)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 21, 2012, 05:34:45 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 20, 2012, 06:25:42 PM
It must take a lot of skill to fight somebody wielding a sword with a hammer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer

It doesn't take much skill. With two heavily armored combatants the one the hammer is striking killing blows the swordsman isn't.

QuoteSwords, or the blade of a battleaxe, were likely only to give a glancing blow, losing much of the impact, especially on the high curvature of the helmet. The war hammer could deliver the full force to the target.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 21, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/game-of-thrones-attack-ads

Super PAC ads from Westeros from groups like The Committe to Protect Dragons, Young Baratheons for Freedom and Crossbows GPS.

Why Balon Greyjoy and Stannis don't get attack ads I don't get. Perhaps slandering Balon is redundant and pointing out Stannis' failings is superfluous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2012, 06:51:00 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 21, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/game-of-thrones-attack-ads

Super PAC ads from Westeros from groups like The Committe to Protect Dragons, Young Baratheons for Freedom and Crossbows GPS.

Why Balon Greyjoy and Stannis don't get attack ads I don't get. Perhaps slandering Balon is redundant and pointing out Stannis' failings is superfluous.

*Cough, cough*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 21, 2012, 06:51:52 PM
 :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 11, 2012, 01:45:21 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/keenan/game-of-thrones-with-lightsabers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
What's Littlefinger's game?
Why would he marry Sansa with the heir to the Eyre?
What's his game?

I thought he had the hots for Sansa, since she looks like Catherine.
How can a marriage between Sansa and Harry the Heir further Littlefinger's bid for the Iron throne?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:40:11 PM
I'm starting to really hate Daenarys.
She only thinks of sex with sellswords.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 12, 2012, 01:29:39 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:40:11 PM
I'm starting to really hate Daenarys.
She only thinks of sex with sellswords.

This coming from the guy who's been in two different armies. Guess Siege doesn't like sex.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 12, 2012, 02:56:57 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
What's Littlefinger's game?
Why would he marry Sansa with the heir to the Eyre?
What's his game?

I thought he had the hots for Sansa, since she looks like Catherine.
How can a marriage between Sansa and Harry the Heir further Littlefinger's bid for the Iron throne?

Knock her up, arrange for an accident for Harry, whammo, Littlefinger Junior (either his or Harry's, matters not), lord of of the vale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 12, 2012, 11:51:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 12, 2012, 02:56:57 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
What's Littlefinger's game?
Why would he marry Sansa with the heir to the Eyre?
What's his game?

I thought he had the hots for Sansa, since she looks like Catherine.
How can a marriage between Sansa and Harry the Heir further Littlefinger's bid for the Iron throne?

Knock her up, arrange for an accident for Harry, whammo, Littlefinger Junior (either his or Harry's, matters not), lord of of the vale.

Nah. It can't be that.
Littlefinger is aiming high. He wants the Iron throne for himself, not his heir.
There have to be a more immediate benefit for him out of this.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 12, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 12, 2012, 01:29:39 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:40:11 PM
I'm starting to really hate Daenarys.
She only thinks of sex with sellswords.

This coming from the guy who's been in two different armies. Guess Siege doesn't like sex.

1- I have served in more than 2 armies.
2- I have never been a merc.
3- I love sex.
4- You are a retard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 12, 2012, 11:57:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2012, 01:45:21 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/keenan/game-of-thrones-with-lightsabers

Thanks, this is a major find.
I guess now we know that lightsabers greatly enhance sword combat.
It let us easily follow every thrust and cut without needing to be an expert swordman.

Lucas a fucking genious, no doubt.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on July 13, 2012, 12:27:17 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 12, 2012, 11:51:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 12, 2012, 02:56:57 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
What's Littlefinger's game?
Why would he marry Sansa with the heir to the Eyre?
What's his game?

I thought he had the hots for Sansa, since she looks like Catherine.
How can a marriage between Sansa and Harry the Heir further Littlefinger's bid for the Iron throne?

Knock her up, arrange for an accident for Harry, whammo, Littlefinger Junior (either his or Harry's, matters not), lord of of the vale.

Nah. It can't be that.
Littlefinger is aiming high. He wants the Iron throne for himself, not his heir.
There have to be a more immediate benefit for him out of this.

Why would he want the Iron Throne? It'd be like painting a big target on his ass.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 13, 2012, 12:36:41 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 12, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
1- I have served in more than 2 armies.
2- I have never been a merc.

1- How many more and which ones?
2- No, just easily persuadable.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 13, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 12, 2012, 11:51:47 PM
Nah. It can't be that.
Littlefinger is aiming high. He wants the Iron throne for himself, not his heir.
There have to be a more immediate benefit for him out of this.

This kid would just rule the vale, not the Iron Throne, and Little Finger would control him.

I don't think Little Finger cares too much about actually being king himself, being the de facto unquestioned most powerful man would be better than being de jure king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 13, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Season 3 casting release video.  Jojen and Meera Reed, Brynden "The Blackfish" Tully, Olenna "The Queen of Thorns" Tyrell, Missandei, Orell, Shireen Baratheon, Beric Dondarrion, and Thoros of Myr all introduced and throw a few comments out.  Looks like some good choices. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpSDSgChsaI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on July 13, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Need Ramsay, though I guess they may be keeping him hidden for longer to maintain the suspense of season 2 ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
I'd imagined the Queen of Thorns as older, but that's my only quibble.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on July 13, 2012, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 13, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Need Ramsay, though I guess they may be keeping him hidden for longer to maintain the suspense of season 2 ending.
They don't really need Ramsay.  He's not that important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on July 13, 2012, 09:10:03 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 13, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
I'd imagined the Queen of Thorns as older, but that's my only quibble.
Older than Diana Rigg?  Like, dead?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 14, 2012, 02:10:21 AM
Quote from: Neil on July 13, 2012, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 13, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Need Ramsay, though I guess they may be keeping him hidden for longer to maintain the suspense of season 2 ending.
They don't really need Ramsay.  He's not that important.
Disagree, especially since Theon has been given a much bigger role all throughout the TV series than he had in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on July 14, 2012, 10:01:57 AM
So far to the overall story - not so important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 14, 2012, 10:11:11 AM
Getting Boromir to play Ned, cunning
Getting Anne Boleyn to play Margaery Tyrell, fitting
Getting Mrs. James Bond to play Olenna Tyrell just makes those scenes where she bitches about how mace is not quite the man his father was, epic. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on July 14, 2012, 10:32:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 14, 2012, 02:10:21 AM
Quote from: Neil on July 13, 2012, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on July 13, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Need Ramsay, though I guess they may be keeping him hidden for longer to maintain the suspense of season 2 ending.
They don't really need Ramsay.  He's not that important.
Disagree, especially since Theon has been given a much bigger role all throughout the TV series than he had in the books.
You can tell Theon's story without going into much detail on who is torturing him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 14, 2012, 07:30:43 PM
given that they are splitting book 3 in 2 parts, they might just skip Theon's faith and bring it back later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on July 14, 2012, 07:47:25 PM
I'm not sure they are splitting it in to two exact parts.  Almost all of the acton is in the later half of the book, so it would make sense more to do something like 60-70%, and then basically abandon the divided structure of Feast for Crows/first bit of Dance, because that really sucks anyways.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 15, 2012, 12:46:57 PM
Who's Orell?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 15, 2012, 12:49:57 PM
Guy with eagle, wans't it?
Varamyr sixskins stole his eagle?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on July 15, 2012, 03:38:42 PM
Anyone hear anything on Mance or Oberyn's casting?  Or if Selmy is really coming back?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 15, 2012, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 15, 2012, 03:38:42 PM
Anyone hear anything on Mance or Oberyn's casting?  Or if Selmy is really coming back?

I don't think that Oberyn will be introduced during this season, I guess they'll push him to the 4th season. No casting news about Mance, but he has been confirmed to be amongst the new characters for this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on July 15, 2012, 09:07:37 PM
Then what is Tyrion going to do?  I was guessing that they would go up to the [spoiler]death of Joffrey[/spoiler].  It would seem to be an appropriate Episode 9 event, if Episode 7-8 is [spoiler]Red Wedding[/spoiler]-I think the event is so big that you can't really just end with it, as with Ned's execution and the Blackwater. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 15, 2012, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 15, 2012, 09:07:37 PM
Then what is Tyrion going to do?  I was guessing that they would go up to [spoiler]the death of Joffrey.[/spoiler]  It would seem to be an appropriate Episode 9 event, if Episode 7-8 is[spoiler] Red Wedding[/spoiler]-I think the event is so big that you can't really just end with it, as with Ned's execution and the Blackwater.

See how spoiler tags work?    Use 'em when talking about events past where the series is now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 16, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
When ius the next book coming out?
I cannot find it anywhere.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 16, 2012, 06:21:58 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 16, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
When ius the next book coming out?
I cannot find it anywhere.

that's what the people at http://westeros.org/ and http://winter-is-coming.net/ are wondering.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 16, 2012, 07:48:20 PM
Even supposing he's got book 6 written, I'm sure it'll still need to be gutted, split off and rewritten a couple more times first. 2016 maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on July 16, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 16, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
When ius the next book coming out?
I cannot find it anywhere.
After Martin dies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 24, 2012, 07:30:30 PM
I love castles.
Have you guys found any westerosi style designs?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.castlemagic.com%2Fimages%2F3dL-tower.jpg&hash=4eab7de1d124c5efa8d38561e6d8e057c6dfaa2f)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 24, 2012, 07:37:58 PM
This one looks impresive:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.castlemagic.com%2FBW%2F1g.jpg&hash=39183b9f1232098293cb849d1c006f14ddaa032c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: szmik on July 25, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

What does it even mean?  :hmm:

Castles have their purpose, even in Westeros.  :secret:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: szmik on July 25, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

What does it even mean?  :hmm:

Castles have their purpose, even in Westeros.  :secret:

Castles in the novels (and the TV show) are often much larger then castles were in real life.  Sometimes impossibly so.  There also appears to be a hodgepodge of styles and types that existed over a large period of time.  Some of the changes were caused by the development of cannon, so it's a bit odd to see those castles with features to defeat cannon in a world where cannons don't exist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on July 25, 2012, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: szmik on July 25, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

What does it even mean?  :hmm:

Castles have their purpose, even in Westeros.  :secret:

Castles in the novels (and the TV show) are often much larger then castles were in real life.  Sometimes impossibly so.  There also appears to be a hodgepodge of styles and types that existed over a large period of time.  Some of the changes were caused by the development of cannon, so it's a bit odd to see those castles with features to defeat cannon in a world where cannons don't exist.
Examples?

TBH, my main problem in the TV series with the fortifications is that they are often pretty terrible.  All of the fortifications around King's Landing were about the size of a ring of the walls of Constantinople, which rather famously had two rings and a pretty large moat. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 25, 2012, 05:58:53 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 25, 2012, 05:55:38 PM
TBH, my main problem in the TV series with the fortifications is that they are often pretty terrible.  All of the fortifications around King's Landing were about the size of a ring of the walls of Constantinople, which rather famously had two rings and a pretty large moat.

And a dinky third wall in front of the moat, hence the famous "triple walls of Constantinople."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on July 25, 2012, 06:04:17 PM
 :frusty:

I knew that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 25, 2012, 06:05:41 PM
Plus they weren't really rings because the seaward sides only had single walls. :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 25, 2012, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: szmik on July 25, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

What does it even mean?  :hmm:

Castles have their purpose, even in Westeros.  :secret:

Castles in the novels (and the TV show) are often much larger then castles were in real life.  Sometimes impossibly so.  There also appears to be a hodgepodge of styles and types that existed over a large period of time.  Some of the changes were caused by the development of cannon, so it's a bit odd to see those castles with features to defeat cannon in a world where cannons don't exist.
Examples?

TBH, my main problem in the TV series with the fortifications is that they are often pretty terrible.  All of the fortifications around King's Landing were about the size of a ring of the walls of Constantinople, which rather famously had two rings and a pretty large moat.

Well they have a wall made of ice that is like 2 miles high... 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on July 25, 2012, 06:52:23 PM
Were ice walls invented to defeat cannons? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 25, 2012, 07:25:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 25, 2012, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: szmik on July 25, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

What does it even mean?  :hmm:

Castles have their purpose, even in Westeros.  :secret:

Castles in the novels (and the TV show) are often much larger then castles were in real life.  Sometimes impossibly so.  There also appears to be a hodgepodge of styles and types that existed over a large period of time.  Some of the changes were caused by the development of cannon, so it's a bit odd to see those castles with features to defeat cannon in a world where cannons don't exist.
Examples?

TBH, my main problem in the TV series with the fortifications is that they are often pretty terrible.  All of the fortifications around King's Landing were about the size of a ring of the walls of Constantinople, which rather famously had two rings and a pretty large moat.

Well they have a wall made of ice that is like 2 miles high... 

No, the Wall is 700 feet high. About 210m high.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 25, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: szmik on July 25, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

What does it even mean?  :hmm:

Castles have their purpose, even in Westeros.  :secret:

Castles in the novels (and the TV show) are often much larger then castles were in real life.  Sometimes impossibly so.  There also appears to be a hodgepodge of styles and types that existed over a large period of time.  Some of the changes were caused by the development of cannon, so it's a bit odd to see those castles with features to defeat cannon in a world where cannons don't exist.

Example?
I haven't seen castles in Westeros with slopped walls, star-shaped battlements, or with ball trap ditches.
All castles in westeros have high walls with higher towers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 25, 2012, 07:30:32 PM
How high is the Aerie?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 25, 2012, 07:41:01 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
Those look like normal keeps, Westerosi castles are totally fantastical.

Only the castles of the Great Houses.
Deepwood motte, Karhold, Torrhen Square, Flints Finger, etc, are perfectly normal.
Even White Harbor seems pretty normal for a fortified city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 25, 2012, 07:43:05 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 25, 2012, 07:30:32 PM
How high is the Aerie?

Yeah, the Eyre is way out of reality.
Just maintaining supplied a castle that hard to access is ridicoulus.
I forgot how high the Eyre is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 28, 2012, 10:27:07 PM
This is a gorgeous castle.
Fort La Latte, originally the Roche Goyon.
The castle Michael Douglas and Jamie Lee Curtis sacked in that movie "The Vikings" from 1958.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4074%2F4857594559_0ec96679a2.jpg&hash=790d8d55bc5b259ce18a4623373b9cf2e0e0d8f1)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 28, 2012, 10:30:18 PM
Did people in real life lived in the towers of the castles like in Westeros?
I don't meant the keep or donjon, but the other towers on the walls.
In westeros they do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: dps on July 29, 2012, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 28, 2012, 10:27:07 PM

The castle Michael Douglas and Jamie Lee Curtis sacked in that movie "The Vikings" from 1958.

That was Kirk Douglas and either Tony Curtis or Janet Leigh (not sure which of the latter 2 you meant--they were both in it).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 01, 2012, 08:29:56 PM
It appears that the people living in towers thing is post-medieval.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 01, 2012, 09:03:18 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 25, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Example?
I haven't seen castles in Westeros with slopped walls, star-shaped battlements, or with ball trap ditches.
All castles in westeros have high walls with higher towers.
Rounded walls/towers; short, thick, walls; projecting towers/bastions.
Off the top of my head cant think what else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on August 01, 2012, 09:11:10 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 25, 2012, 05:55:38 PM

TBH, my main problem in the TV series with the fortifications is that they are often pretty terrible.  All of the fortifications around King's Landing were about the size of a ring of the walls of Constantinople, which rather famously had two rings and a pretty large moat.
:rolleyes: One set off walls the size of Constantinoples is way better than almost any other city. Hardly something to fault them on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 01, 2012, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 01, 2012, 09:03:18 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 25, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Example?
I haven't seen castles in Westeros with slopped walls, star-shaped battlements, or with ball trap ditches.
All castles in westeros have high walls with higher towers.
Rounded walls/towers; short, thick, walls; projecting towers/bastions.
Off the top of my head cant think what else.

Round towers are from the crusades. Don't know about rounded walls.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 07, 2012, 07:52:24 PM
Why isn't this thread pinned on the first page?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on August 07, 2012, 07:55:58 PM
Seedy keeps unpinning it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
Anyway, my latest theories.

1- Barristan Selmy tells Daenerys that her father was in love with a girl before he married daenerys mother. The girl was the future wife of Tywin Lannister. During T-man Lannister's wedding, apearenly Aerys the Mad did something bad, that Selmy didn't want to tell Daenerys. I think Cersei and Jaime are Aerys the mad's children. Making Tyrion the only real son of Tywin, as Tywin's sister, the one married to a Frey, mother of Ser Cleos Frey, told Tywin once.

2- Valanqar. Cersei believe that profecy that her younger brother is gonna kill her. Guess what, Jaime is a younger brother to Cersei. I think Jaime will take out Cersei, eventually.

3- Who is the younger queen that is going to take everything from Cersei? Margaery, Daenerys, or Myrcella?

4- Jon Snow better be dead. I can't stand the dude. Complete lack of leadership and misunderstanding of his command. He failed as a Lord Commander. The function of the Wall is to stop BOTH the others AND the wildlings from raiding the North. He does not understand the men he leads, nor does he cares. He also speaks of his vows all the time, only to forfeit all that with his last action, trying to ride to Winterfell with a volunteer force at the very end before getting wacked. I hope he stays dead.

5- Tyrion. What a piece of shit. He thinks he is smarter than anyone, but all he does is drink and fuck whores. He threaten to kill Tommen, his own nefew, sells Myrcella to Dorne, and kills his own father for some hearsay about some chick that was a whore.

6- Daenerys. I hope somebody kills her and steal her dragons. Too bad Qentyn martell wasn't up to the task.

7- Aegon 6th. My best hope so far. Hopefully he will be like his father, not his grandpa. too early to tell.

8- And finally, I think Jaime Targaryen should get the Iron throne. That would make him a bastard though. Being a Targaryen.

9- Bran Stark. Great kid.

10- Rickon Stark. Next lord of Winterfell, thanks to the Manderlys.

11- Ary Karstark. Interesting chick. If Jon weren't a faggot he would have married her instead of giving her to the new Magnar of Thenn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 07, 2012, 08:36:35 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
Anyway, my latest theories.

1- Barristan Selmy tells Daenerys that her father was in love with a girl before he married daenerys mother. The girl was the future wife of Tywin Lannister. During T-man Lannister's wedding, apearenly Aerys the Mad did something bad, that Selmy didn't want to tell Daenerys. I think Cersei and Jaime are Aerys the mad's children. Making Tyrion the only real son of Tywin, as Tywin's sister, the one married to a Frey, mother of Ser Cleos Frey, told Tywin once.

Quote possible, but that sort of in a sense both saves Tyrion from being a kin-slayer and from being his father's son - at the same time. It also leaves the sailor's wife's daughter theory of mine in the dumps, little lanna of Tyrosh won't by the lady of casterly rock then.

Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
2- Valanqar. Cersei believe that profecy that her younger brother is gonna kill her. Guess what, Jaime is a younger brother to Cersei. I think Jaime will take out Cersei, eventually.

Well duh.. he'll do it to save her from being raped and murdered though.

Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
3- Who is the younger queen that is going to take everything from Cersei? Margaery, Daenerys, or Myrcella?


The prophecy says the younger and more beautiful queen will take all that she holds dear (that includes joffrey). So, yeah, Margaery.

Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
4- Jon Snow better be dead. I can't stand the dude. Complete lack of leadership and misunderstanding of his command. He failed as a Lord Commander. The function of the Wall is to stop BOTH the others AND the wildlings from raiding the North. He does not understand the men he leads, nor does he cares. He also speaks of his vows all the time, only to forfeit all that with his last action, trying to ride to Winterfell with a volunteer force at the very end before getting wacked. I hope he stays dead.


Sorry to dissapoint, I'm certain he lives, or at least is a living zombie with a soul like Dondarrion.

Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
5- Tyrion. What a piece of shit. He thinks he is smarter than anyone, but all he does is drink and fuck whores. He threaten to kill Tommen, his own nefew, sells Myrcella to Dorne, and kills his own father for some hearsay about some chick that was a whore.

- he is smarter than any one
- he does that because of his family's treatment of him
- It's a fake threat.
- To keep her safe from Stannis' army who would kill her (and tommen and every other lannister).
- No, she was not a whore, that is the point, that is what Jaime tells him just before he kills his father.


Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
6- Daenerys. I hope somebody kills her and steal her dragons. Too bad Qentyn martell wasn't up to the task.

is she getting too old for you?
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
7- Aegon 6th. My best hope so far. Hopefully he will be like his father, not his grandpa. too early to tell.

he's a mummers dragon, fake.
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
8- And finally, I think Jaime Targaryen should get the Iron throne. That would make him a bastard though. Being a Targaryen.

No, Jaime's arc has him dying doing something noble.
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
9- Bran Stark. Great kid.

who will spend eternity under a tree.
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
10- Rickon Stark. Next lord of Winterfell, thanks to the Manderlys.

Quite possibly.
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
11- Ary Karstark. Interesting chick. If Jon weren't a faggot he would have married her instead of giving her to the new Magnar of Thenn.

Alys Karstark. Jon will be reborn, depose whoever is in kings landing (tommen?) and then re-join the nights watch and become the 1000th and last lord commander defeating the others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
Whoa, how do you know that about Jaime?

And Jon being reborn?
Like, wait another 20 years until he is old enough to kill Tommen?
Unlikely.

How do you know Aegon is fake? What are the clues?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 07, 2012, 08:51:12 PM
Those really aren't "theories", Siege.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 07, 2012, 08:54:24 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
Whoa, how do you know that about Jaime?
It's the character's arc. He is moving from a character with no honor and respect. He is merely admired and feared. When he loses both, he loses his hand and his freedom, he finds out what it means to not have honor and respect. He is presented with the example Brienne who has honor and while she has nothing other than her own honor it means she can look herself in the mirror, Jamie can't. The horse's name is honor and the sword's name is oathkeeper. He keeps his word even though nobody trusts him once he has decided on the path of honor and he keeps his word going with brienne rather than come to his sister's aid.
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
And Jon being reborn?

Well duh, the red witch is there and has taken a liking to jon.
Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
Like, wait another 20 years until he is old enough to kill Tommen?
Unlikely.


no tommen will still be a kiddie.

Quote from: Siege on August 07, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
How do you know Aegon is fake? What are the clues?

Too much bolt from the blue and too many tricky hair colors. Hair color is too central to the plot and a man with that many colors just can't be trusted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on August 07, 2012, 08:56:16 PM
I just wish Martin knew something about women. His caricature women are a little tiring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 07, 2012, 08:57:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 07, 2012, 08:56:16 PM
I just wish Martin knew something about women. His caricature women are a little tiring.

I agree, only the unmarried virgins have personality. Unmarried non-virgins are wanton sluts, as are married non-virgins. Mothers are just bat-shit crazy all of them (with the possible exception of the Queen of Thorns).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on August 07, 2012, 09:00:04 PM
And the Queen of Thorns just stands in as the wizened old crone character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Siege, I like the idea that you disapprove of Tyrion avenging the rape of his wife by the entire garrison of Casterly Rock (with Tyrion forced to watch the whole thing), as ordered by Tywin.  It makes me think your dad must have been a real sweetheart, if you think dads should get away with monstrous behavior like Tywin's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 07, 2012, 10:59:38 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 07, 2012, 07:55:58 PM
Seedy keeps unpinning it.

Be glad he didn't delete it.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 07, 2012, 11:31:53 PM
Quote
Too much bolt from the blue and too many tricky hair colors. Hair color is too central to the plot and a man with that many colors just can't be trusted.
Dunno about the hair colour thing but yeah, too much out of nowhere.
Also I'm certain Dany (?) was told as part of her prophecy package about a false dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 08, 2012, 01:29:13 AM
Quote from: Viking on August 07, 2012, 08:54:24 PM

It's the character's arc. He is moving from a character with no honor and respect. He is merely admired and feared.


Yup. I imagine that when Dany comes, he'll take out one of the dragons single-handedly. He'll die, but he'll earn an epithet more flattering than King Slayer. :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 08, 2012, 04:28:21 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on August 08, 2012, 01:29:13 AM
Quote from: Viking on August 07, 2012, 08:54:24 PM

It's the character's arc. He is moving from a character with no honor and respect. He is merely admired and feared.


Yup. I imagine that when Dany comes, he'll take out one of the dragons single-handedly. He'll die, but he'll earn an epithet more flattering than King Slayer. :sleep:

I always thought it would be jon with stannis from the north representing ice and dany from the south representing fire taking kings landing in the middle then going north together to destroy the others. But, if Martin lives long enough we might actually find out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 08, 2012, 06:07:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Siege, I like the idea that you disapprove of Tyrion avenging the rape of his wife by the entire garrison of Casterly Rock (with Tyrion forced to watch the whole thing), as ordered by Tywin.  It makes me think your dad must have been a real sweetheart, if you think dads should get away with monstrous behavior like Tywin's.

I agree Tywin's behavior was over the top.
If my son desides to marry a whore I would force him to take care of her, but none of that raping stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 08, 2012, 06:09:47 PM
Can Selmy ride the white dragon, Viserion? A White knight for the white dragon.
And who would ride the green dragon, Rhaegon?
I was convinced it was Qentyn Martell.
What House have green as his color?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 08, 2012, 06:24:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Siege, I like the idea that you disapprove of Tyrion avenging the rape of his wife by the entire garrison of Casterly Rock (with Tyrion forced to watch the whole thing), as ordered by Tywin.  It makes me think your dad must have been a real sweetheart, if you think dads should get away with monstrous behavior like Tywin's.

I like the idea that you approve of the murder of an unarmed man.  It makes me think that you go around killing people willy-nilly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on August 08, 2012, 07:23:39 PM
It would be weird for Aegon to be real, but 'mummer's dragon' could simply refer to the fact that the whole Targaryen revival is the work of Varys.

Siege has a point about Jon.  He got what he had coming.  Not for the teaming up with the wildlings, but for trying to attack the Boltons.  Unfortunately, his death probably means the end of the Night's Watch.

I like Tyrion.  He generally does what's right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 08, 2012, 08:05:36 PM
Also forgot to mention in favour of Aegon being fake; Martin likes ripping off real historical events and there is the whole wars of the roses vibe going on in the series. Its not a real period of crown distress without a pretender or two. Martin is probally channeling Perkin Warbeck or whatever.
Though knowing him....he could well turn around and say "THATS WHAT I WANTED YOU TO THINK" thus making the old exercise stupid.


Jon- it does seem set out that he will be resurrected, and thus out of the watch, then will have adventures and win the day.
But...Martin does like subverting cliches. Already Jon was being a bit too much of a typical fantasy hero. In real life things rarely go according to plan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 08, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 08, 2012, 06:09:47 PM
What House have green as his color?
Mormont.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 08, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
You know, It finally hit me why these books and shows are so popular.  They are like soap operas for Nerds.  Sure they ride around on horses and wear metal clothes, but they spend most of their time scheming and plotting, having torrid affairs, and dying and getting better.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 09, 2012, 03:04:25 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 08, 2012, 06:09:47 PM
Can Selmy ride the white dragon, Viserion? A White knight for the white dragon.
And who would ride the green dragon, Rhaegon?
I was convinced it was Qentyn Martell.
What House have green as his color?

Mormont has a black bear on a green background.
Tyrion has one green and one black eye.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 09, 2012, 03:12:45 AM
I thought House Tyrell are the ones associated with green.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 09, 2012, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 08, 2012, 06:24:20 PM
I like the idea that you approve of the murder of an unarmed man.

Tywin Lannister certainly had no problems with it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on August 09, 2012, 08:49:08 AM
I'm thinking that Raz was trying to make a point that what one is okay with in the books doesn't necessarily translate to their real life circumstances, though I'm unconvinced that grumbler is okay with the murder of an unarmed man.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 09, 2012, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 08:49:08 AM
I'm thinking that Raz was trying to make a point that what one is okay with in the books doesn't necessarily translate to their real life circumstances, though I'm unconvinced that grumbler is okay with the murder of an unarmed man.


See, someone pays attention.  Grumbler said something stupid.  I called him on it.  The neat thing is, he's pretending to ignore me so I can say anything I want about it.  He just has to take it.  I always get the last word.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 09, 2012, 05:16:52 PM
So, battle for Meeren:
- Daenerys riding Drogon (she droped the whip-whips don't work on dragons, despite what happerned at the fight pit)
- Khal Jhaqo, subdued by Daenerys and Drogon.
- Victarion and his Iron Fleet.
- Ser Barristan Selmy and all the dudes inside Meeren.

Who else?
Will Tyrion turn the Second Sons before the Unsullied comes out of the gates?
And Daenerys' sellsword is gone, thankfully.
What was his nam? Whatever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 09, 2012, 05:26:31 PM
Fuck man, I can't stand the Starks anymore.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on August 09, 2012, 06:49:04 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 09, 2012, 05:26:31 PM
Fuck man, I can't stand the Starks anymore.
Every one of them but Bran and Ned was a worthless piece of shit in Book One, and nothing since has changed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 09, 2012, 06:52:12 PM
Arya was awesome up until she started killing people who hadn't personally wronged her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on August 09, 2012, 07:03:50 PM
My main beef with the Stark kids is that they're always going on about how they are almost men and women grown, no matter how old they are.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on August 09, 2012, 07:31:53 PM
Quote from: Scipio on August 09, 2012, 06:49:04 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 09, 2012, 05:26:31 PM
Fuck man, I can't stand the Starks anymore.
Every one of them but Bran and Ned was a worthless piece of shit in Book One, and nothing since has changed.

Bran? His chapters have always been awful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 09, 2012, 07:41:53 PM
Good people are usually dull.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on August 09, 2012, 08:14:35 PM
Wait, what did Robb do in book 1?  I thought that he was an alright guy until the Westerling disaster.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on August 09, 2012, 08:16:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 09, 2012, 07:41:53 PM
Good people are usually dull.

Children are generally dull.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on August 09, 2012, 08:25:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 08:16:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 09, 2012, 07:41:53 PM
Good people are usually dull.
Children are generally dull.
Most people are rather dull.  You know what's not dull?  Dreadnoughts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 12, 2012, 01:59:30 AM
Quote from: Scipio on August 09, 2012, 06:49:04 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 09, 2012, 05:26:31 PM
Fuck man, I can't stand the Starks anymore.
Every one of them but Bran and Ned was a worthless piece of shit in Book One, and nothing since has changed.
Totally agree. Ned was kind of a square, but in a good way. I could serve him.
Unlike Stannis, which is a total retard that think "justice" is all he needs to lead.
Robert Baratheon was hands down the best leader in Westeros.
Too bad he married a Lannister. I think that marriage and getting fat were the only two stupid things he ever did.

And Bran seems great, I really like him, but his character is not fully developed, which kind of goes with his age in the novels.

I liked Robb until he started fucking that Westerling bitch, and especially after he beheaded the Lord Karstark, what was his name?
That was against all the values of the North. No man can get between a father and his revenge.
You should know the men you lead and the laws they live for.

When you think about it, both Jon and Robb made the same mistakes.
They tried to do what they thought Ned would have done, but they totally failed because Ned always did "good" whithin the frame of Northern culture. Which in the end means Ned failed to educate correctly and pass on his leadership ability to his sons.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:06:11 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 09, 2012, 06:52:12 PM
Arya was awesome up until she started killing people who hadn't personally wronged her.

Why? What's wrong with killing people that need to be killed, but haven't personally wronged you?
By your account, if you didn't personally lose somebody on the 9/11, you had no bussiness fighting in the WOT.
Rethink your statement.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 12, 2012, 12:52:18 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 01:59:30 AMI liked Robb until he started fucking that Westerling bitch, and especially after he beheaded the Lord Karstark, what was his name?
That was against all the values of the North. No man can get between a father and his revenge.
You should know the men you lead and the laws they live for.

Since when is mindless revenge part of the values of the North? Dissobeying your liege lord and executing prisoners are much worse than that. Robb couldn't left that go unpunished, it'd be a huge blow to his credibility as a leader.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 12, 2012, 12:52:18 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 01:59:30 AMI liked Robb until he started fucking that Westerling bitch, and especially after he beheaded the Lord Karstark, what was his name?
That was against all the values of the North. No man can get between a father and his revenge.
You should know the men you lead and the laws they live for.

Since when is mindless revenge part of the values of the North? Dissobeying your liege lord and executing prisoners are much worse than that. Robb couldn't left that go unpunished, it'd be a huge blow to his credibility as a leader.

Exactly. He placed himself in a position with no choices. Revenge is part of North culture and he should have understood that Karstark would have taken his revenge no matter the price. Robb failed to perceive that in the North revenge is more important than trading hostages. He got this southron mentality of hostages from the Tullies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 12, 2012, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PMRevenge is part of North culture

No it's not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 12, 2012, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PMRevenge is part of North culture

No it's not.

Yes it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 12, 2012, 02:25:33 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 12, 2012, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PMRevenge is part of North culture

No it's not.

Yes it is.

Prove it. You only have the actions of a grieving father to back that up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on August 12, 2012, 02:40:31 PM
On the one hand, there is 'The North Remembers'.  On the other hand, it is clear that the North also doesn't act stupidly or frivolously.  Karstark's actions seemed to meet with condemnation from the other lords.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on August 12, 2012, 02:41:47 PM
The North is about sitting on your ass all day, refusing to relocate to jobs, because your grandpa was laid off when the coal mine closed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on August 12, 2012, 02:51:01 PM
Is Siegy trolling, drunk or just dumb? I mean his insistence that Tysha was a whore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 12, 2012, 06:46:12 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:06:11 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 09, 2012, 06:52:12 PM
Arya was awesome up until she started killing people who hadn't personally wronged her.

Why? What's wrong with killing people that need to be killed, but haven't personally wronged you?
By your account, if you didn't personally lose somebody on the 9/11, you had no bussiness fighting in the WOT.
Rethink your statement.

Because it's the difference between a vigilante and a psycho killer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 13, 2012, 01:40:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2012, 02:51:01 PM
Is Siegy trolling, drunk or just dumb? I mean his insistence that Tysha was a whore.

Maybe he's looking to get an arrow in his bowels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 15, 2012, 06:32:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2012, 02:51:01 PM
Is Siegy trolling, drunk or just dumb? I mean his insistence that Tysha was a whore.

I'm just dumb.

And Tysha was a whore.
What kind of woman fucks a dwarf if not for money?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on August 15, 2012, 07:11:14 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on August 13, 2012, 01:40:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2012, 02:51:01 PM
Is Siegy trolling, drunk or just dumb? I mean his insistence that Tysha was a whore.

Maybe he's looking to get an arrow in his bowels.
My understanding is that you cease to be an adventurer at that point....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 15, 2012, 07:31:40 PM
Quentyn Martell should have read "How To Tame Your Dragon".

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 16, 2012, 09:37:23 AM
Quote from: Siege on August 15, 2012, 06:32:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2012, 02:51:01 PM
Is Siegy trolling, drunk or just dumb? I mean his insistence that Tysha was a whore.

I'm just dumb.

And Tysha was a whore.
What kind of woman fucks a dwarf if not for money?

how tall are you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 17, 2012, 07:34:10 PM
5"11'
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 17, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 17, 2012, 07:34:10 PM
5"11'

a midjit then...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 17, 2012, 07:48:07 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PM
Exactly. He placed himself in a position with no choices. Revenge is part of North culture and he should have understood that Karstark would have taken his revenge no matter the price. Robb failed to perceive that in the North revenge is more important than trading hostages. He got this southron mentality of hostages from the Tullies.

Robb's mistake was leaving any of the Karstarks alive, if you are right and mindless revenge against innocent people is a "part of North culture."  Of course, the chances that you are right about that are as low as the chances of anything else you say being right!  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 17, 2012, 07:50:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 17, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 17, 2012, 07:34:10 PM
5"11'

a midjit then...

A poor midjit, to boot, having to pay his wife for sex every time, and on a sergeant's salary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 17, 2012, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 17, 2012, 07:50:10 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 17, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 17, 2012, 07:34:10 PM
5"11'

a midjit then...

A poor midjit, to boot, having to pay his wife for sex every time, and on a sergeant's salary.

and getting drunk on coors light just makes it more embarrassing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 17, 2012, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 17, 2012, 07:48:07 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PM
Exactly. He placed himself in a position with no choices. Revenge is part of North culture and he should have understood that Karstark would have taken his revenge no matter the price. Robb failed to perceive that in the North revenge is more important than trading hostages. He got this southron mentality of hostages from the Tullies.

Robb's mistake was leaving any of the Karstarks alive, if you are right and mindless revenge against innocent people is a "part of North culture."  Of course, the chances that you are right about that are as low as the chances of anything else you say being right!  :P

By the time he started executing Karstarks the levies had deserted. No further damage was done. And, tbh, if Robb had returned north with an army, which barring the RW was about to happen. Lords are always looking for land to reward their loyal followers with and the Karstark seem to have just granted Robb an excuse to redistribute some land.

Furthermore, as witnessed by Alys Karstark, executing Rikhardt Karstark was obviously not enough to turn his daughter against the Starks. When in distress Alys went looking for the closest thing to a Stark she could find to save her from her relatives.

Robbs mistakes were in managing his mother and managing his father's ghost (not being dishonourable like Ned was with Jon Snow's mother).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 17, 2012, 08:21:56 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 17, 2012, 08:09:54 PM
Robbs mistakes were in managing his mother and managing his father's ghost (not being dishonourable like Ned was with Jon Snow's mother).

Agreed.  He was mature enough to lead an army, but not mature enough to lead a kingdom.  He allowed his romantic impulses to lead him into actions he knew would have dreadful consequences for his subjects.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 20, 2012, 10:52:49 AM
So, I assume we are discussing GoT the novels here, right? No spoiler concerns?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 20, 2012, 11:12:00 AM
Might as well.  The attempt to keep this thread relatively spoiler-free was made more than once and has failed each time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2012, 11:36:53 AM
There are spoiler tags for actual spoilers (i.e. things that happen in books beyond where the show is).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 20, 2012, 01:18:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2012, 11:36:53 AM
There are spoiler tags for actual spoilers (i.e. things that happen in books beyond where the show is).
The Karstarks and the RW haven't happenned on tv yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on August 20, 2012, 03:03:51 PM
Watching Salmon Fishing in the Yemen and struggle to remember where I've seen Conleth Hill before. Imdb gave me Varys. I was shocked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2012, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 20, 2012, 01:18:47 PM
The Karstarks and the RW haven't happenned on tv yet.

I think the Karstark incident isn't going to happen on TV (it happened in the books while Robb was away and immediately after Catelyn released Jaime, IIRC).  No one is discussing the RW without spoiler tags, I don't believe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 05, 2013, 09:27:16 PM
That fat fucker! Get back to work!

http://www.deadline.com/2013/02/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-signs-overall-deal-with-hbo/

Quote'Game Of Thrones' George R.R. Martin Signs Overall Deal With HBO
By NELLIE ANDREEVA | Tuesday February 5, 2013 @ 3:40pm PSTTags: Game of Thrones, George R.R. Martin, HBO

EXCLUSIVE: George R.R. Martin, on whose fantasy book series HBO's hit drama Game Of Thrones is based, has signed a two-year overall deal with the pay cable network. Under the pact, Martin will continue as co-executive producer on Game Of Thrones, whose Season 3 premieres March 31. Additionally, he will develop and produce new series projects for the network. Attached to Martin's upcoming HBO development is his long-time representative, manager Vince Gerardis. In addition to co-executive producing Game Of Thrones, Martin has written multiple episodes of the fantasy series. His TV writing credits also include The Twilight Zone and the original Beauty And The Beast. He is with WME.

Game Of Thrones quickly established itself as HBO's next flagship series, combining ratings and critical success. Its most recent episode, the second-season finale in June, drew a series-high 4.2 million viewers in its premiere airing. For Season 2, GOT averaged gross audience of more than 10.4 million viewers per episode across various platforms. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 05, 2013, 10:01:23 PM
Either his success is turning the man into a workaholic or those books aren't likely to get done. Get Sanderson on retainer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on February 06, 2013, 12:47:42 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 05, 2013, 10:01:23 PM
Either his success is turning the man into a workaholic or those books aren't likely to get done. Get Sanderson on retainer.
Hint: the pocket book release of a Dance with Dragons will include a full chapter of its next book.  So far, it's been pushed 'til October 2013, after August 2012, March 2013...

I think I might die of old age before I see the last book of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on February 06, 2013, 01:05:00 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 06, 2013, 12:47:42 AM
Hint: the pocket book release of a Dance with Dragons will include a full chapter of its next book.  So far, it's been pushed 'til October 2013, after August 2012, March 2013...

I think I might died of old age before I see the last book of the series.

Oh come now.  The last book was not even published two years ago.  Is it time to wail and moan and predict his or our deaths already?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on February 06, 2013, 02:02:00 AM
 As Stannis is the true king, should GRRM die Stannis is awarded a default victory. Unfortunately, this is the only way Stannis will win.

As even more fortuitous line of events would be the death of Stannis followed by GRRM, which would result in the crown passing to Shireen Baratheon, who is the series' star character. I wrote to GRRM explaining who her queensguard should consist of.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 06, 2013, 02:06:28 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 06, 2013, 02:02:00 AM
Shireen Baratheon, who is the series' star character. I wrote to GRRM explaining who her queensguard should consist of.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 06, 2013, 02:42:20 AM
We need to figure out a way to force Martin into major financial difficulty. That'll get him writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 06, 2013, 03:14:33 AM
Expensive trophy wife.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on February 06, 2013, 03:16:55 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 06, 2013, 02:02:00 AM
As Stannis is the true king, should GRRM die Stannis is awarded a default victory. Unfortunately, this is the only way Stannis will win.

As even more fortuitous line of events would be the death of Stannis followed by GRRM, which would result in the crown passing to Shireen Baratheon, who is the series' star character. I wrote to GRRM explaining who her queensguard should consist of.

I guessed Ser Pounce (for obvious anime cuteness potential) and Ser Gerold Dayne (for smiting northern carptebaggers), who are the remaining 5?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on February 06, 2013, 03:17:32 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 06, 2013, 03:14:33 AM
Expensive trophy wife.

He met his wife playing Call of Cthulu iirc, so no, he's not gonna swap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on February 06, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
Quote from: Viking on February 06, 2013, 03:17:32 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 06, 2013, 03:14:33 AM
Expensive trophy wife.

He met his wife playing Call of Cthulu iirc, so no, he's not gonna swap.

She's not exactly a trophy, either, judging by pictures.  Unless one's trophy is the size of the Motherland Monument.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 06, 2013, 01:08:03 PM
Makes it all the easier to get him to trade. And the divorce will be expensive too. :shifty:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on February 06, 2013, 01:14:54 PM
 As gallant as Ser Pounce may be, he is a sworn claw of the Lannisters, a vile house and a spent force. Ser Dayne is a bad man- Dorne is to be looked on with wary suspicion as Not Quite White.

No, we must be realistic here. Shireen's prophet of the drowned God will help her assemble the bastards of Baratheon to restore the vitality to their house; It is a genius stroke that they who could not extend the family name will even so extol its grandeur. So, naturally Gendry, Edric and Mya Stone will be among her knights. A realistic look at Shireen's fortunes shows that her power base and future are in the North, so she will do well to make a political marriage with Bran. As Bran is infertile and vaugely a tree, it goes without saying it will be a matrilineal marriage. This will bring the greatest honor to the queensguard, securing its head (and shireen's lover) Arya Stark, who will be death to her foes. For her service to the Stark in Winterfell, and as a sop to his affections, Meera will also be admitted. Beyond that, it is crucial that the Onion Knight's unsurpassed service be rewarded, so of course Steffan Seaworth will serve valiantly. Finally, Stannis's most capable sword is at presently doubtlessly Richard Horpe, who will be admitted for his service and skill with a blade. He will be a mentor figure to the rest of the Queensguard, whose youth and vigor will doubtlessly energize him and soften his heart.

So, we see the unequaled queensguard, death to Shireen's enemies, is thus:
Arya Stark
Meera Reed
Gendry
Mya Stone
Edric Storm
Steffon Seaworth
Richard Horpe

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 20, 2013, 08:16:19 PM
Deleted scenes from season 2

http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2013/02/game-of-thrones-season-2-deleted-scenes-the-hound-confronts-sansa-irris-death-and-more.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on February 21, 2013, 03:24:22 AM
Thanks for the linkage, Tim.  I only wish there were more Hound scenes. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 21, 2013, 07:08:10 PM
:w00t:

QuoteWORLD PREMIERE OF HBO® GAME OF THRONES® SEASON 3 TRAILER ON JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 22

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/02/season-3-trailer-to-premiere-on-jimmy-kimmel-live/

EDIT: You're welcome BA. I hear there'll be a bit more of a focus on him this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 22, 2013, 08:33:59 AM
 :lol:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m4yd792VGQ1qk2t5co1_500.jpg&hash=b3f4aa1e51e4d526bc8f840c3585ffeac74d30c5)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m3fk496qgg1qk2t5co1_500.jpg&hash=eaf5dbeff40bf88bf3b3d7e21dd228d01f0846a4)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m2d6h1nyvB1qk2t5co1_r1_500.jpg&hash=1f4c5a2ecda16ce80af79da8eec0c4712056a799)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lss67kGIlB1qk2t5co1_r1_500.jpg&hash=01d8e4b5a32a98c53df08e22fce40a1b4e82993b)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 22, 2013, 10:21:42 PM
Good news for future budgets.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/02/22/game-of-thrones-dvd-sales-breaking-hbo-records/
QuoteGame of Thrones
Feb 22 2013 06:50 PM ET

'Game of Thrones' early DVD sales breaking HBO records
by James Hibberd   

Profits are coming: The second season of Game of Thrones is breaking HBO's sales records on home video.

The heavily promoted DVD title was released earlier this week. The company reports that the first day moved 241,000 units, which is 44 percent higher than the first season's initial sales and represent the biggest first-day numbers ever for an HBO home video release. HBO also sold 355,000 individual episodes via digital downloads, up 112 percent from season one. Given the more intense home video interest for season two, it wouldn't be surprising if the show's ratings surpass last season's numbers when the show returns next month.

The box sets include season two's 10 episodes, deleted scenes from the second season (watch them here) and plenty of behind-the-scenes material and commentaries — including this bit, below. Okay, this may not be the most insightful video, but it might be the cutest — the Stark kids beatboxing the Thrones theme song (hat tip to Winter is Coming). Also, check out the official just-released Game of Thrones poster for season 3 here and be sure to return to EW tonight to watch the first full season three trailer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 23, 2013, 12:46:23 AM
Winter is Coming!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzI9v_B4sxw
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on February 23, 2013, 02:08:59 AM
I need to get off my ass and order the second season. Havent seen it yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 24, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 23, 2013, 02:08:59 AM
I need to get off my ass and order the second season. Havent seen it yet.

It was half price as a preorder (probably the reason it sold so much better than season 1  :lol:) and might still be available at that price somewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 28, 2013, 09:46:40 AM
Episode Titles!
http://winteriscoming.net/2013/02/season-three-episode-titles-revealed/
[spoiler]
    Ep. 301 – Valar Dohaeris
    Ep. 302 – Dark Wings, Dark Words
    Ep. 303 – Walk of Punishment
    Ep. 304 – And Now His Watch is Ended
    Ep. 305 – Kissed by Fire
    Ep. 306 – to be determined
    Ep. 307 – The Bear and the Maiden Fair
    Ep. 308 – to be determined
    Ep. 309 – The Rains of Castamere
    Ep. 310 – Mhysa
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on February 28, 2013, 11:45:39 AM
 :D

Twitter is going to explode. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on February 28, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
So, they're only doing half of book 3 right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 28, 2013, 10:51:38 PM
Flaming Sword!

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2012/12/6/prop-closeup-berics-flaming-sword.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on February 28, 2013, 10:55:41 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 28, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
So, they're only doing half of book 3 right?

Yep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on February 28, 2013, 11:44:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 24, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 23, 2013, 02:08:59 AM
I need to get off my ass and order the second season. Havent seen it yet.

It was half price as a preorder (probably the reason it sold so much better than season 1  :lol:) and might still be available at that price somewhere.

Thanks
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 04, 2013, 11:17:43 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGhNyZ0l.jpg&hash=a77adaceb8dd046cc807cfefc6ac6cf0ffed3185)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 05, 2013, 03:42:24 AM
Great, pokemon Song of Fire and Ice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 05, 2013, 04:12:36 AM
 :lol:

Needs a lion, snake and a fish. Gotta catch em all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 05, 2013, 04:48:08 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on February 28, 2013, 11:45:39 AM
:D

Twitter is going to explode.

I take it you are referring to episode 9? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 05, 2013, 05:08:36 AM
Some interesting speculation about the season finale on winteriscoming.com. The title of the episode means "Mother" in Gyscari.

There are three "mothers" in the show: [spoiler]Danny, Cersei and Catelyn.[/spoiler] So it may be about something big happening to each of them.[spoiler]Although for Catelyn it would be too early compared to the books chronology but who knows?[/spoiler]

If the predictions about [spoiler]Cersei[/spoiler] are true, the [spoiler]last two[/spoiler] episodes will be packed with so much [spoiler]slaughter[/spoiler].  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 05, 2013, 05:13:58 AM
Also, I'm willing to bet episode 306 will be named [spoiler]Dracarys[/spoiler] or [spoiler]Freedom[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2013, 09:45:23 PM
Cool

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/03/emmys-to-host-an-evening-with-game-of-thrones/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on March 07, 2013, 09:48:44 PM
I really should watch these series, shouldn't I ?  :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 PM
Yes, it's really quite good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on March 07, 2013, 09:57:42 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 PM
Yes, it's really quite good.

Clearly I should, as I haven't heard nearly a bad word said about it on Languish, and I know what a picky bunch of bastards we are.   :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 07, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
Quote from: mongers on March 07, 2013, 09:48:44 PM
I really should watch these series, shouldn't I ?  :unsure:
wait ten years, buy the whole series on Blu Ray for cheap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 08, 2013, 07:02:18 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 PM
Yes, it's really quite good.

Tainted
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 08, 2013, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: mongers on March 07, 2013, 09:57:42 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 PM
Yes, it's really quite good.

Clearly I should, as I haven't heard nearly a bad word said about it on Languish, and I know what a picky bunch of bastards we are.   :D

If you havent read the books it good. If you have read the books you need to turn that part of your brain off and enjoy the show as a stand alone piece.  If you expect it to be faithful to the books you will be disappointed.

But as a standalone production it is really very good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on March 08, 2013, 09:18:15 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 08, 2013, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: mongers on March 07, 2013, 09:57:42 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 PM
Yes, it's really quite good.

Clearly I should, as I haven't heard nearly a bad word said about it on Languish, and I know what a picky bunch of bastards we are.   :D

If you havent read the books it good. If you have read the books you need to turn that part of your brain off and enjoy the show as a stand alone piece.  If you expect it to be faithful to the books you will be disappointed.

But as a standalone production it is really very good.

Ok, thanks for the good advice. :cheers:

Sounds like I should watch the shows first, then stick the books on the must read list.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 08, 2013, 10:23:26 AM
GO either way really, but just evaluate each on their own merits, rather than comparing them.

It is simply impossible for the show to be faithful to the books - the books scope is an order of magnitude greater in size and depth than anything they can handle on a television series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 08, 2013, 10:45:21 AM
yeah, there's already a ton of characters in the series, having many more, you'd simply dilute the story too much.  Even in the books, sometimes, it seems to wander aimlessly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on March 08, 2013, 11:34:51 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 08, 2013, 10:45:21 AM
yeah, there's already a ton of characters in the series, having many more, you'd simply dilute the story too much.  Even in the books, sometimes, it seems to wander aimlessly.

True to life then ?  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 11, 2013, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:

That can only mean more man scraping or other such sexuality not found in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 11, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:

Renly's dead, you do know that. He is not coming back to life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on March 11, 2013, 06:50:39 PM
Well Brienne looks like a man, maybe Marti is expecting her & Jaime scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 11, 2013, 06:55:28 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on March 11, 2013, 06:50:39 PM
Well Brienne looks like a man, maybe Marti is expecting her & Jaime scenes.

I think he's hoping for som jon-sam luvvin under blankets in the snow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 11, 2013, 08:35:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:
New? Got a link?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 03:29:18 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 11, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:

Renly's dead, you do know that. He is not coming back to life.

With Renly dead, of course I am rooting for the other rightful Queen. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 03:29:48 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 11, 2013, 08:35:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:
New? Got a link?

Well I watched the season 2 recap feature. Which got me back into the hype.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 03:30:22 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 11, 2013, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:

That can only mean more man scraping or other such sexuality not found in the books.

What is "man scraping"?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on March 12, 2013, 03:43:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 03:29:18 AM
Quote from: Viking on March 11, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:

Renly's dead, you do know that. He is not coming back to life.

With Renly dead, of course I am rooting for the other rightful Queen. :P

Loras?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 12, 2013, 08:16:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 03:30:22 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 11, 2013, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2013, 02:17:45 PM
I just watched another promo. I am fucking excited.  :sleep:

That can only mean more man scraping or other such sexuality not found in the books.

What is "man scraping"?

the gay scene where Renly gets shaved that you were so hot about back in the day.  The reference was used in the thread at the time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on March 12, 2013, 08:23:15 PM
Do you mean manscaping? I don't think the idea is brutal exfoliation. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 18, 2013, 05:52:10 AM
Two promos that I haven't seen before.

No Mercy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R4XSeW4B5Rg

The Beast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfSXhMzWoA4&feature=player_embedded

Princess Bride - Game of Thrones Mashup!  :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFOXCfoKO1k&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on March 18, 2013, 06:50:18 PM
Finnished season 2 in the course of a few days. These mother fuckers got drama.  :lol: It's good but over the top at times. Bronn's the man.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 19, 2013, 06:05:14 PM
I'm getting so pumped!

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/03/impressions-of-the-game-of-thrones-season-3-premiere/#more-23900
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on March 20, 2013, 12:34:30 AM
As am I.  My buddy picked up the Game of Thrones beer put out by the local brewery, Ommegang.  We plan on breaking it out for the premiere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 22, 2013, 08:28:41 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.huffpost.com%2Fgadgets%2Fslideshows%2F286947%2Fslide_286947_2235792_free.jpg%3F1363681229738&hash=5a76b0f855d605b61ba377e77623df8157baa5ae)

It was all worth it...for this moment alone it was all worth it.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 22, 2013, 10:01:07 AM
I'm always creeped out to see photos of that guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 10:07:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 22, 2013, 10:01:07 AM
I'm always creeped out to see photos of that guy.

he is like Old Raz? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2013, 04:54:39 AM
 :hmm:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/25/game-of-thrones-a-review-of-hbo-s-third-season-of-sex-starks-more.html
Quote...With this many storylines whizzing by like arrows, some are bound to thud to earth rather than hit their mark. A second episode monologue by Catelyn Stark (Michelle Fairley), about her relationship with her late husband's bastard Jon Snow (Kit Harington), is particularly head-scratching, almost tantamount to outright character assassination. And diehard fans of the books may be perturbed by a change to a subplot involving hapless Night's Watch knight Samwell Tarly (John Bradley). In fact, several shocking revelations within the novels are seemingly spelled out for the viewer rather than left until later to unfurl as major plot twists.

But there are still plenty of mysteries and surprises in store in an otherwise stellar start to the season. Season 3 of Game of Thrones promises to be its best yet, a triumphant and commanding addition to the series, one that asks tough questions about glory and defeat, oaths and bonds, and about the nature of power, an issue that lies at the heart of Martin's work. What is its true cost? And what are we each willing to do in order to attain even a rare sliver of influence? In the midst of war, is there any semblance of humanity left?

These are questions that are typically found in the weightiest of literature, rather than in a drama about a fractured kingdom, where dormant magic—embodied by three dragons—is slowly returning to the world. But that is part of the beauty and wonder of Game of Thrones: it poses existential questions as it engages in the sort of sex and violence you would expect from a premium cable program.

The sense of jeopardy here is palpable, creating an atmosphere where no character is ever truly safe. All men must die, as Martin reminds us several times over in the novels, and the same holds true within the transcendent Game of Thrones: the pleasures of life are seen as fleeting and ephemeral, but death conquers all in the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 25, 2013, 06:25:08 AM
I just saw a new web series called "School of Thrones" on YouTube. Like the title suggests, it's an adaptation of these books to a high school. Not a particularly inspired parody or anything, but I found it amusing. Plus the chick who plays Sansa is superhot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2013, 05:26:44 PM
The Greatjon had his ear bit off. Guess the wolf next door didn't appreciate his booming laugh.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-21927889
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on March 25, 2013, 05:34:30 PM
Is Greatjon in this season?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 25, 2013, 07:03:18 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2013, 05:34:30 PM
Is Greatjon in this season?

IIRC it was mentioned that he wouldn't be returning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2013, 09:10:35 PM
Just noticed this! :w00t:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/12/18/game-of-thrones-longer-season-3/

Quote"A super-sized season, as befitting Storm of Swords," Benioff adds. "Last year we had a lot of 52-minute episodes. This year is a lot of 56, 57."

In fact, the third season finale is expected to run more than an hour — a move that requires special permission from the network (previously, the show's pilot and its second season finale exceeded an hour). Episodes are still being calibrated so exact times could change, but HBO and producers are confident the season will deliver more Thrones than ever before. Says HBO in a statement: "All 10 episodes gained a minute or two from past seasons with the finale very possibly exceeding 60 minutes."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 26, 2013, 01:59:00 AM
Well, killing half of the cast takes time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 04:51:35 AM
God, I can't wait. I know what I will be doing on Easter Monday morning.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on March 27, 2013, 03:05:00 PM
Participating in Dyngus Day festivities? :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 03:06:53 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on March 27, 2013, 03:05:00 PM
Participating in Dyngus Day festivities? :)

With freezing weather? No thank you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on March 27, 2013, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 03:06:53 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on March 27, 2013, 03:05:00 PM
Participating in Dyngus Day festivities? :)

With freezing weather? No thank you.

YOLO!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 27, 2013, 05:47:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 27, 2013, 05:42:06 PM
YOLO!

:(

My google image search has failed me, so imagine a pic of Patton Oswalt killing a douchey 20 something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on March 27, 2013, 11:55:29 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 03:06:53 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on March 27, 2013, 03:05:00 PM
Participating in Dyngus Day festivities? :)

With freezing weather? No thank you.
I'm actually missing out on Buffalo, NY's Dyngus Day celebration for the first time since I found out about it 6 or so years ago.  I got roped into helping a friend move. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 28, 2013, 12:14:34 AM
How disappointing, nobody seems to have caught my Justified reference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 28, 2013, 04:40:11 AM
Benioff said that episode 9 ("Rains of Castamere") will follow a similar approach to season 2's "Blackwater" in that it will focus almost exclusively on a single storyline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on March 28, 2013, 04:58:14 AM
Good. I recall a rumor that the writers had lost their brains and decided to cut between the Red Wedding and Tyrion's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 03:44:28 AM
I watched the first episode of season three.

:worthy:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 03:45:07 AM
Also, I don't know how it feels for people who have not read the books, but seeing all these great plot arcs essentially put into motion was an awesome experience.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2013, 03:46:38 AM
I still have to watch season 1 & 2. So I suppose this is watchable? As I mentioned a few times I found the books while fine plotwise (at least till early book I stopped), my main issue with them is the writing which is often tells but doesn't show (esp. when there's big events going on that you only hear talked about).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on April 01, 2013, 03:47:13 AM
It's good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 01, 2013, 03:46:38 AM
I still have to watch season 1 & 2. So I suppose this is watchable? As I mentioned a few times I found the books while fine plotwise (at least till early book I stopped), my main issue with them is the writing which is often tells but doesn't show (esp. when there's big events going on that you only hear talked about).

It sucks. The series feels like a bad Xena spoof, and the ratings are artificially inflated/falsified.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 01, 2013, 04:01:34 AM
It's in color (where available).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2013, 05:04:13 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 01, 2013, 04:01:34 AM
It's in color (where available).

Racist.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg708.imageshack.us%2Fimg708%2F1193%2F2013033100001o.jpg&hash=ada594405a320fcedfca5900b7c1e1449d125f7f)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
Rewatching the episode 301. Am I the only one who couldn't care less for the whole Night Watch/Jon Snow plot? I mean, it feels like a filler keeping us from the real action elsewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 01, 2013, 12:59:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
Am I the only one who couldn't care less for the whole Night Watch/Jon Snow plot? I mean, it feels like a filler keeping us from the real action elsewhere.

No you are not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 01, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
It took for the first episode of 3 season to achieve but finally Danny's story isn't boring anymore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 01, 2013, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 01, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
It took for the first episode of 3 season to achieve but finally Danny's story isn't boring anymore.
To me, I'm just dreading where her story is going.  I hate her character as she stands in the books.  I'm looking forward to the appearance of Dondarrion and the Brotherhood as well as The Hound coming back onto the scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on April 01, 2013, 02:21:29 PM
'Game Of Thrones' Season 3 Opens With Every Character Getting Fingered While Discussing Arrival Of Winter

http://www.theonion.com/articles/game-of-thrones-season-3-opens-with-every-characte,31882/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 01, 2013, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
Rewatching the episode 301. Am I the only one who couldn't care less for the whole Night Watch/Jon Snow plot? I mean, it feels like a filler keeping us from the real action elsewhere.

It is all just filler until the main character, Jon Connington, shows up. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 01, 2013, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 01, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
It took for the first episode of 3 season to achieve but finally Danny's story isn't boring anymore.
To me, I'm just dreading where her story is going.  I hate her character as she stands in the books.  I'm looking forward to the appearance of Dondarrion and the Brotherhood as well as The Hound coming back onto the scene.

Seriously? I completely love her character and can't wait to see what she does next in Astapor and beyond. I was getting moved just thinking about it, watching the episode.

On the other hand, I can't stand Stannis. He is despicable and at least Lannisters are less deluded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on April 01, 2013, 02:52:37 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8mKxv6d.png&hash=61c91f7c3a5333d2511e904d2675886635ecc097)

As an unnatural creature, Martinus of course fears the true and lawful king, as he has everything to lose from a man who judges justly and brings cleansing purification to the realm.

(moreover, martinus is essentially pouting with injured pride about renly's ruptured sphincter.)

Shireen is the rightwise and appropriate queen; she is, in fact, the only sovereign. Would-be queens who stake their claim on demonic beasts and abolitionist fanaticism need not apply.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2013, 02:53:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
Rewatching the episode 301. Am I the only one who couldn't care less for the whole Night Watch/Jon Snow plot? I mean, it feels like a filler keeping us from the real action elsewhere.

Not only are you the only one, but you are also the only one who cares about your opinion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 01, 2013, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 01, 2013, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 01, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
It took for the first episode of 3 season to achieve but finally Danny's story isn't boring anymore.
To me, I'm just dreading where her story is going.  I hate her character as she stands in the books.  I'm looking forward to the appearance of Dondarrion and the Brotherhood as well as The Hound coming back onto the scene.
Seriously? I completely love her character and can't wait to see what she does next in Astapor and beyond. I was getting moved just thinking about it, watching the episode.

On the other hand, I can't stand Stannis. He is despicable and at least Lannisters are less deluded.
That makes perfect sense.  You would like a flighty teenage girl who just lets the wind blow her around into foolish misadventure after foolish misadventure.  On the other hand, a dignified man with a firm sense of what is right and what is wrong and an unwillingness to compromise himself would disgust you.  Except for the whole having his brother magically assassinated thing.

Or maybe you just liked how in the last book pretty much all of her chapters were dominated by her thinking about cocks, whereas Stannis never does that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 01, 2013, 04:08:43 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
Except for the whole having his brother magically assassinated thing.

Yeah except for that totally minor thing. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 04:11:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 01, 2013, 04:08:43 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
Except for the whole having his brother magically assassinated thing.
Yeah except for that totally minor thing. :lol:
Yeah, to me that's Stannis' moral event horizon.  Associating with the most evil character in the series is a bad thing.  Mind you, he's still the legitimate king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 01, 2013, 05:26:34 PM
I think from where Stannis is sitting, having his brother killed is in fact moral, but the code he works by - he had esentially tried and convicted his brother of treason. He gave him the opportunity to change his mind. At that point, the sentence for treason is death, and what matters the means by which that sentence is carried out?

Stannis strikes me as a pretty serious "means to an end" kind of guy. His morality and sense of justice is driven by results, and if the results are "moral" than the means to achieve those results matter little.

He would never, ever murder someone to take a throne that was rightfully theirs - but killing a traitor who is trying to take his throne is not even murder, it is an execution.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 01, 2013, 05:32:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 01, 2013, 05:26:34 PM
Stannis strikes me as a pretty serious "means to an end" kind of guy. His morality and sense of justice is driven by results, and if the results are "moral" than the means to achieve those results matter little.

Yeah, Stannis is definitely a guy who believes justice and morality intersect only coincidentally from time to time. And justice is the arbiter of right and wrong, not morality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 05:34:54 PM
That's an interesting way to see it.  Still, dishonouring his wife with the villain so that he can execute his brother isn't admirable.  Then again, I suppose sorcery was his only option, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
You really think Melisandre is "the villain"?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:55:43 PM
Did anyone else think this episode looked amazing?  The details on the costume and the lighting just seemed beyond anything they were capable of in the first season, and beyond the second season as well. Though I wish some of that money had gone in to the fight at Fist of the First Men. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:57:18 PM
Also, the actor who plays the Greatjon isn't in this season, which will just completely fuckup the entire Red Wedding.   <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 01, 2013, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:55:43 PM
Did anyone else think this episode looked amazing?  The details on the costume and the lighting just seemed beyond anything they were capable of in the first season, and beyond the second season as well. Though I wish some of that money had gone in to the fight at Fist of the First Men. 

I hope less money goes into "fights" and more into story.

I am pretty much all set with my lifetime quota of fantasy swordfights. Unless the fight has some particular importance to actual characters (Jaime-Ned, Jon-Qorrin, etc., etc) another 10 minutes of people chopping each other up is of little interest to me, and those are precious minutes that could be telling the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
You really think Melisandre is "the villain"?
One of them.  She's a monotheist, and those types are always evil.  Her deity has a Cthulhu-esque name.  Her goal is to burn everyone.  She also prolonged the war, which worked against her stated goals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:35:27 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:57:18 PM
Also, the actor who plays the Greatjon isn't in this season, which will just completely fuckup the entire Red Wedding.   <_<
But not really.  At all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 01, 2013, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:55:43 PM
Did anyone else think this episode looked amazing?  The details on the costume and the lighting just seemed beyond anything they were capable of in the first season, and beyond the second season as well. Though I wish some of that money had gone in to the fight at Fist of the First Men. 

I hope less money goes into "fights" and more into story.

I am pretty much all set with my lifetime quota of fantasy swordfights. Unless the fight has some particular importance to actual characters (Jaime-Ned, Jon-Qorrin, etc., etc) another 10 minutes of people chopping each other up is of little interest to me, and those are precious minutes that could be telling the story.
No kidding.  For an alleged sophisticate, that was an incredibly Tim-esque statement by Spellus.  Honestly, the Fist of the First Men isn't really important, except that it happens.  There are no major characters even involved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
You really think Melisandre is "the villain"?
One of them.  She's a monotheist, and those types are always evil.  Her deity has a Cthulhu-esque name.  Her goal is to burn everyone.  She also prolonged the war, which worked against her stated goals.
Yeah, but as a worshiper of a fire deity with actual magical power who can bring back the dead she's probably the best ally the people of Westeros have against the Others.   TBH I get the impression that her religion is right about the big stuff , even if her precious Lord of Light isn't nearly as benevolent as Ahura Mazda. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:40:04 PM
No kidding.  For an alleged sophisticate, that was an incredibly Tim-esque statement by Spellus.  Honestly, the Fist of the First Men isn't really important, except that it happens.  There are no major characters even involved.
I thought it was one of the more memorable action sequences in the novels.   :huh: The entire retreat is also pretty great. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 10:37:32 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
You really think Melisandre is "the villain"?
One of them.  She's a monotheist, and those types are always evil.  Her deity has a Cthulhu-esque name.  Her goal is to burn everyone.  She also prolonged the war, which worked against her stated goals.
Yeah, but as a worshiper of a fire deity with actual magical power who can bring back the dead she's probably the best ally the people of Westeros have against the Others.
I get the impression that they're not really the same when they get back.  Dondarion was certainly a ruin of a man.  And is R'hllor isn't any better than The Others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2013, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:40:04 PM
No kidding.  For an alleged sophisticate, that was an incredibly Tim-esque statement by Spellus.  Honestly, the Fist of the First Men isn't really important, except that it happens.  There are no major characters even involved.
I thought it was one of the more memorable action sequences in the novels.   :huh: The entire retreat is also pretty great.
Great sequences in the books don't necessarily make for good TV.  There just isn't enough time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:40:59 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 10:37:32 PM
I get the impression that they're not really the same when they get back.  Dondarion was certainly a ruin of a man.  And is R'hllor isn't any better than The Others.
I think that's an open question.  I suspect he had some kind of involvement in The Doom, and that ultimately The Others and R'hllor are more ying-yang than Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu.  But the fact remains that the ice-men seem to pose a far more imminent threat than any possible fire-men.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2013, 10:50:38 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
You really think Melisandre is "the villain"?
One of them.  She's a monotheist, and those types are always evil.  Her deity has a Cthulhu-esque name.  Her goal is to burn everyone.  She also prolonged the war, which worked against her stated goals.
Yeah, but as a worshiper of a fire deity with actual magical power who can bring back the dead she's probably the best ally the people of Westeros have against the Others.   TBH I get the impression that her religion is right about the big stuff , even if her precious Lord of Light isn't nearly as benevolent as Ahura Mazda.

I can't shake the idea of Ahura Mazda being a car company.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 01, 2013, 11:00:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2013, 10:50:38 PM
I can't shake the idea of Ahura Mazda being a car company.

Would make a great name for a Mazda dealership.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 11:17:21 PM
Ahura just means light or shining. Call the dealership "Shining Mazda" and make the 1/20,000,000 Zorastrian customer giggle in appreciation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:29:48 AM
It really amuses me how you can call Stannis a rightful king but call Danny an upstart. She is the rightful queen, Stannis is simply an usurper's brother.

Stannis's morality is completely flexible and abhorrent - it's very ex post facto in its justification of his misdeeds. He will put family over loyalty to the legitimate monarch when it suits him (i.e. supporting Robert's rebellion) and when it suits him he will do the opposite (i.e. "executing" Renly, when Stannis feels himself the legitimate monarch). He is a classic hypocrite.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:35:06 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 01, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 01, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
You really think Melisandre is "the villain"?
One of them.  She's a monotheist, and those types are always evil.  Her deity has a Cthulhu-esque name.  Her goal is to burn everyone.  She also prolonged the war, which worked against her stated goals.
Yeah, but as a worshiper of a fire deity with actual magical power who can bring back the dead she's probably the best ally the people of Westeros have against the Others.   TBH I get the impression that her religion is right about the big stuff , even if her precious Lord of Light isn't nearly as benevolent as Ahura Mazda.

I would say that three dragons are a much better ally than some cunt who can give birth to murderous shadows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2013, 12:48:17 AM
Rhaegar's line isn't suitable to rule, due to hereditary insanity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:51:34 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 12:48:17 AM
Rhaegar's line isn't suitable to rule, due to hereditary insanity.

An ad hoc excuse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 02, 2013, 12:59:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:29:48 AM
It really amuses me how you can call Stannis a rightful king but call Danny an upstart. She is the rightful queen, Stannis is simply an usurper's brother.

Stannis's morality is completely flexible and abhorrent - it's very ex post facto in its justification of his misdeeds. He will put family over loyalty to the legitimate monarch when it suits him (i.e. supporting Robert's rebellion) and when it suits him he will do the opposite (i.e. "executing" Renly, when Stannis feels himself the legitimate monarch). He is a classic hypocrite.

Supporting his brother is completely standard in the hierarchical medieval pecking order. His older brother is his liege, therefore it is not per se immoral to support him if he rebels (the immorality of that rebellion is born by Robert, not by Roberts vassals). And rebellion is certainly morally justifiable under the proper circumstances.

It is not hypocritical to treat Renly very differently. Renly rebellion is against Stanis, who is Renly's liege lord. So not at all the same. Further, Renly does not have any mitigating circumstance making his rebellion against Stannis justifiable. Renly does not even try to justify it - he just claims he should be king because nobody likes Stannis. I always thought this was a weak point in the story in fact - that so many would support Renly who is clearly NOT under any justifiable reasoning the heir to Robert's throne. Most Lords and such are not going to be swayed by such arguments, or else there would not be so many bad kings and lords. If any king can be put aside simply because some people don't like him, then why not a lord or a baron or a duke or whatever?

There is absolutely NOTHING hypocritical about Stannis actions towards his brother. Indeed, he states his reasoning explicitly - when Robert was the elder brother, Stannis deferred to him, and he expects Renly to do the same now that he is eldest. That is 100% completely consistent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2013, 01:04:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:29:48 AM
It really amuses me how you can call Stannis a rightful king but call Danny an upstart. She is the rightful queen, Stannis is simply an usurper's brother.

Stannis's morality is completely flexible and abhorrent - it's very ex post facto in its justification of his misdeeds. He will put family over loyalty to the legitimate monarch when it suits him (i.e. supporting Robert's rebellion) and when it suits him he will do the opposite (i.e. "executing" Renly, when Stannis feels himself the legitimate monarch). He is a classic hypocrite.
Robert was his leige lord was he not?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 01:11:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 02, 2013, 12:59:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:29:48 AM
It really amuses me how you can call Stannis a rightful king but call Danny an upstart. She is the rightful queen, Stannis is simply an usurper's brother.

Stannis's morality is completely flexible and abhorrent - it's very ex post facto in its justification of his misdeeds. He will put family over loyalty to the legitimate monarch when it suits him (i.e. supporting Robert's rebellion) and when it suits him he will do the opposite (i.e. "executing" Renly, when Stannis feels himself the legitimate monarch). He is a classic hypocrite.

Supporting his brother is completely standard in the hierarchical medieval pecking order. His older brother is his liege, therefore it is not per se immoral to support him if he rebels (the immorality of that rebellion is born by Robert, not by Roberts vassals). And rebellion is certainly morally justifiable under the proper circumstances.

It is not hypocritical to treat Renly very differently. Renly rebellion is against Stanis, who is Renly's liege lord. So not at all the same. Further, Renly does not have any mitigating circumstance making his rebellion against Stannis justifiable. Renly does not even try to justify it - he just claims he should be king because nobody likes Stannis. I always thought this was a weak point in the story in fact - that so many would support Renly who is clearly NOT under any justifiable reasoning the heir to Robert's throne. Most Lords and such are not going to be swayed by such arguments, or else there would not be so many bad kings and lords. If any king can be put aside simply because some people don't like him, then why not a lord or a baron or a duke or whatever?

There is absolutely NOTHING hypocritical about Stannis actions towards his brother. Indeed, he states his reasoning explicitly - when Robert was the elder brother, Stannis deferred to him, and he expects Renly to do the same now that he is eldest. That is 100% completely consistent.

Well, the support for Renly comes mainly from his own bannermen (so his vassals) and from the Reach, and we know Tyrells are not sticklers for such things as rightful claims and whatnot.

Stannis was, on the other hand, supported mainly by his own bannermen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 02, 2013, 01:15:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:29:48 AM
It really amuses me how you can call Stannis a rightful king but call Danny an upstart. She is the rightful queen, Stannis is simply an usurper's brother.

Stannis's morality is completely flexible and abhorrent - it's very ex post facto in its justification of his misdeeds. He will put family over loyalty to the legitimate monarch when it suits him (i.e. supporting Robert's rebellion) and when it suits him he will do the opposite (i.e. "executing" Renly, when Stannis feels himself the legitimate monarch). He is a classic hypocrite.

So conquering the peoples of the seven kingdoms makes the Targaryens "rightful" rulers, but deposing them and being accepted as king doesn't do so for the Baratheons? :yeahright:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on April 02, 2013, 01:24:11 AM
Woman and Direwolf

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd3oeu2l8qd7s1b.cloudfront.net%2F386100-9808799-7.jpg&hash=2bac0a351e69784662f9b53cd06fd740b8a7d6e8)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 02, 2013, 12:59:35 AM
Supporting his brother is completely standard in the hierarchical medieval pecking order. His older brother is his liege, therefore it is not per se immoral to support him if he rebels (the immorality of that rebellion is born by Robert, not by Roberts vassals). And rebellion is certainly morally justifiable under the proper circumstances.

I don't know enough about the feudal system of Westeros - and happy to defer to you if you can give conclusive evidence that what you claim is correct - but considering the fact that the feudal system of Westeros is based more on Norman England than France, it is likely that feudal law of Westeros states that a vassal of a traitorous lord is relieved of his duty to his immediate liege and instead owns direct allegiance to the king in the event of a rebellion.

And the part about "moral justification" of rebellion contradicts Stannis's "lawful neutral" stance - in Stannis's world, rebellion is never morally justified, simply because there is no authority that could grant such justification.

Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 02, 2013, 04:19:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:35:06 AM
I would say that three dragons are a much better ally than some cunt who can give birth to murderous shadows.

Still mourning Renly? :console:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 02, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
I'm really looking forward to the purchase of the Unsullied by Dany and all that follows. It's a very epic and emotional moment in the book, hope they do it well in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.

I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:58:42 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.

No, he was burning men who [spoiler]were doing their best to sabotage the necessary task of hatching dragons and birthing the PWP to stop the rising of the others and white walkers.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-3POYx6IeeI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2013, 08:00:12 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:58:42 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.
No, he was burning men who [spoiler]were doing their best to sabotage the necessary task of hatching dragons and birthing the PWP to stop the rising of the others and white walkers.[/spoiler]
I don't think that was especially important.  The First Men did a good job of dealing with the bad guys without any of those things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2013, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation.
Do we know of who?  Do we feel that it's especially relevant to the war the First Men would have fought?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation.
Do we know of who?  Do we feel that it's especially relevant to the war the First Men would have fought?
He's Azor Ahai.  This is basic stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2013, 10:34:29 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation.
Do we know of who?  Do we feel that it's especially relevant to the war the First Men would have fought?
He's Azor Ahai.  This is basic stuff.
Says you.  I think they're two different things.  Azor Ahai might be one of a number of people, but there's really only one strong candidate for prince that was promised, and she's never really given any appearance of being the reincarnation of anyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2013, 11:17:13 PM
Renewed for a fourth season!  :showoff:

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/hbo-renews-game-of-thrones-for-a-fourth-season/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2013, 12:20:30 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.

And Stannis is burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy witch to stop destroying their holy statues and sending their sons into insane battles.

History is written by victors. If Stannis loses, it is really hard to see him depicted as anything else than a mad tyrant who blasphemes against the gods of old.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 03, 2013, 12:23:17 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 08:00:12 PMI don't think that was especially important.  The First Men did a good job of dealing with the bad guys without any of those things.

Again, same applies to Stannis and his "red witch". Westeros do not need them and their crazy religion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 03, 2013, 05:02:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 01, 2013, 05:26:34 PMStannis strikes me as a pretty serious "means to an end" kind of guy. His morality and sense of justice is driven by results, and if the results are "moral" than the means to achieve those results matter little.

Yup, he says so himself when he tells the story of his childhood when he stopped using his falcon because he wouldn't hunt as a comparison to him ditching the Seven for R'hlor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 03, 2013, 05:05:31 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-3POYx6IeeI

I'm now going to imagine Tywin saying "stop your kinky fuckery" to Tyrion every time they talk. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:22:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2013, 12:23:17 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 08:00:12 PMI don't think that was especially important.  The First Men did a good job of dealing with the bad guys without any of those things.
Again, same applies to Stannis and his "red witch". Westeros do not need them and their crazy religion.
Stannis isn't really a religious man.

Besides, it's not like the worship of Melisandre's fire demon is worse than the worship of the Seven Andal Gods.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:26:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2013, 12:20:30 AM
And Stannis is burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy witch to stop destroying their holy statues and sending their sons into insane battles.

History is written by victors. If Stannis loses, it is really hard to see him depicted as anything else than a mad tyrant who blasphemes against the gods of old.
He's not burning religious opponents though.  He didn't burn Davos.  Of course history will frown on losers.  That's what happens to losers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 03, 2013, 08:32:46 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:26:58 AM
Of course history will frown on losers.  That's what happens to losers.

Eh History has been kind to many losers.  It depends.  The whole 'History is written by the victors' thing sort of depends on the losers being exterminated...otherwise they tend to hang around annoyingly writing Lost Cause literature.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 03, 2013, 08:32:46 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:26:58 AM
Of course history will frown on losers.  That's what happens to losers.

Eh History has been kind to many losers.  It depends.  The whole 'History is written by the victors' thing sort of depends on the losers being exterminated...otherwise they tend to hang around annoyingly writing Lost Cause literature.

There was a tipping point with that trope that came with Jubal Early. For the first time, rather than being butchered and/or reflecting over the causes of their own failure they just bitched and complained suggesting that the other side cheated by having more men or better material. Since we stopped butchering the leaders of the losers all they have done is write history. The winners are busy making it.

Today every single Marxist out there is either a historian or a journalist. Today history is written by the losers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 03, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Today every single Marxist out there is either a historian or a journalist. Today history is written by the losers.

Your statement might be fair if there was no one from the West writing history. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2013, 09:13:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Today every single Marxist out there is either a historian or a journalist. Today history is written by the losers.

Your statement might be fair if there was no one from the West writing history. ;)

You did notice that my phrasing was "every .. marxist ... is .. a historian or a journalist." not "every .. historian or journalist ... is ... a marxist."

I might have added "village idiot" since every single community seems to have it's own unrepentant marxist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 03, 2013, 09:25:04 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2013, 09:13:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Today every single Marxist out there is either a historian or a journalist. Today history is written by the losers.

Your statement might be fair if there was no one from the West writing history. ;)

You did notice that my phrasing was "every .. marxist ... is .. a historian or a journalist." not "every .. historian or journalist ... is ... a marxist."

I might have added "village idiot" since every single community seems to have it's own unrepentant marxist.

Exactly which is why the statement - "Today history is written by the losers" is inaccurate in the context of the oft repeated phrase. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2013, 07:39:05 PM
Dragon spoilers! :w00t:

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/vfx-supervisor-talks-creating-the-dragons/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:08:42 PM
Is it really a spoiler?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2013, 07:33:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2013, 09:25:04 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2013, 09:13:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 03, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Today every single Marxist out there is either a historian or a journalist. Today history is written by the losers.

Your statement might be fair if there was no one from the West writing history. ;)

You did notice that my phrasing was "every .. marxist ... is .. a historian or a journalist." not "every .. historian or journalist ... is ... a marxist."

I might have added "village idiot" since every single community seems to have it's own unrepentant marxist.

Exactly which is why the statement - "Today history is written by the losers" is inaccurate in the context of the oft repeated phrase.

I'd go into detail about definite and indefinite articles but that would really be pedantic. I'll see if you figure it out...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2013, 09:41:12 AM
He's got a point Puff.  History is a mass noun, so it's undefined in your statement "Today history is written by the losers" whether you're referring to some or all history.  Clearly not all history is being written by the losers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2013, 09:41:12 AM
He's got a point Puff.  History is a mass noun, so it's undefined in your statement "Today history is written by the losers" whether you're referring to some or all history.  Clearly not all history is being written by the losers.

Did you understand my initial point as I intended it or as he misrepresents it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2013, 07:39:05 PM
Dragon spoilers! :w00t:

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/vfx-supervisor-talks-creating-the-dragons/

Can you really fit a spoiler on a dragon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2013, 09:46:50 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 04, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
Did you understand my initial point as I intended it or as he misrepresents it?

As you intended it.  But you can't take for granted that your entire audience will have Yi-like powers of discernment and perception.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 09:47:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:26:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2013, 12:20:30 AM
And Stannis is burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy witch to stop destroying their holy statues and sending their sons into insane battles.

History is written by victors. If Stannis loses, it is really hard to see him depicted as anything else than a mad tyrant who blasphemes against the gods of old.
He's not burning religious opponents though.  He didn't burn Davos.  Of course history will frown on losers.  That's what happens to losers.

The worship of Seven Andal Gods is status quo ante - anyone who tries to upset that is causing social upheaval - you of all people should be able to understand this.

Besides, my personal view of people who convert from one religion to another is that they are scum - I can understand losing one's religion and going atheist, I can understand keeping one's faith for cultural and social reasons, but anyone who deliberately and conciously abandons one's own culture only to accept an equally delusional set of beliefs of another culture is a dangerous madman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 04, 2013, 10:12:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 09:47:01 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 03, 2013, 08:26:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 03, 2013, 12:20:30 AM
And Stannis is burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy witch to stop destroying their holy statues and sending their sons into insane battles.

History is written by victors. If Stannis loses, it is really hard to see him depicted as anything else than a mad tyrant who blasphemes against the gods of old.
He's not burning religious opponents though.  He didn't burn Davos.  Of course history will frown on losers.  That's what happens to losers.
The worship of Seven Andal Gods is status quo ante - anyone who tries to upset that is causing social upheaval - you of all people should be able to understand this.

Besides, my personal view of people who convert from one religion to another is that they are scum - I can understand losing one's religion and going atheist, I can understand keeping one's faith for cultural and social reasons, but anyone who deliberately and conciously abandons one's own culture only to accept an equally delusional set of beliefs of another culture is a dangerous madman.
There were clear advantages to converting in this case though:  While the Andal gods are powerless figments of imagination, the demon R'hlor is probably real and his adherents certainly have sorcery that is unavailable to the other claimants.  The Lannisters and Starks both enjoyed fanatical support in large areas of Westeros, and even Renly enjoyed broad, if rather shallow support.  Stannis lacked these advantages, so he took to magic.

Besides, do you think Stannis' change in religion is causing more or less upheaval than the wars raging across central Westeros?  Or Cercei's bungling with the Church Militant, for that matter?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 04, 2013, 10:32:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 09:47:01 AM
The worship of Seven Andal Gods is status quo ante - anyone who tries to upset that is causing social upheaval - you of all people should be able to understand this.

Besides, my personal view of people who convert from one religion to another is that they are scum - I can understand losing one's religion and going atheist, I can understand keeping one's faith for cultural and social reasons, but anyone who deliberately and conciously abandons one's own culture only to accept an equally delusional set of beliefs of another culture is a dangerous madman.

Have you forgotten the scene where your boy was killed by a shadow beast?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2013, 10:32:54 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2013, 09:46:50 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 04, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
Did you understand my initial point as I intended it or as he misrepresents it?

As you intended it.  But you can't take for granted that your entire audience will have Yi-like powers of discernment and perception.

Then I propose that garbon is intentionally quarreling semantics simply because he disagrees "against" me on principle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 11:08:16 AM
By the way, did anyone mind Loras being all smiles during the dinner with Cersei? I remember from the books that he was much more moping/drama-ish after Renly's death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2013, 11:11:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 11:08:16 AM
By the way, did anyone mind Loras being all smiles during the dinner with Cersei? I remember from the books that he was much more moping/drama-ish after Renly's death.

it wasnt like an intimiate family gathering.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2013, 11:22:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 04, 2013, 11:08:16 AM
By the way, did anyone mind Loras being all smiles during the dinner with Cersei? I remember from the books that he was much more moping/drama-ish after Renly's death.

Given that Mace, Garlan and Garth Tyrell aren't cast I'm pretty sure Neil Finn is playing all of them as well.. or at least Loras is filling their role's in the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 12:07:23 PM
So, no comments yet after the last night's ep?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 12:07:23 PM
So, no comments yet after the last night's ep?  :huh:

You can do that yourself too, you know.  :P

Really liked it myself, maybe more than the first one. Lady Olenna seems like she'll be a hoot to watch, and the guy that plays Thoros looks very promising.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 08, 2013, 12:58:48 PM
Dennis Pennis as Thoros of Myr.   :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 08, 2013, 01:01:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 04, 2013, 10:32:54 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 04, 2013, 09:46:50 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 04, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
Did you understand my initial point as I intended it or as he misrepresents it?

As you intended it.  But you can't take for granted that your entire audience will have Yi-like powers of discernment and perception.

Then I propose that garbon is intentionally quarreling semantics simply because he disagrees "against" me on principle.

There is some history being written by some losers isn't a particularly compelling or insightful statement.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 08, 2013, 01:55:34 PM
No boobs in the last episode.

:D

In an unconnected comment, I'm noticing the "children" have really grown up since last year. Arya seems to be a foot taller as does Bran, whom I don't think Hodor will be carrying around much anymore. Sansa is blossoming nicely. I thought her bit with Olenna was the best part of the last episode.

Oh, and I guess they're intentionally not making the popular Tyrion as disfigured as he seems to be in the book
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 12:07:23 PM
So, no comments yet after the last night's ep?  :huh:

You can do that yourself too, you know.  :P

Really liked it myself, maybe more than the first one. Lady Olenna seems like she'll be a hoot to watch, and the guy that plays Thoros looks very promising.

I liked it less than the first one, I guess, but it could be also because I was so GoT-starved last week.

Really liked all the new characters introduced, though, from the Reeds, to Queen of Thorns, to Ramsay (poor Theon!), to Thoros.

No Danny though. :( I still fail to be at all excited or engaged by Jon Snow plot, too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:57:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 08, 2013, 01:55:34 PM
No boobs in the last episode.

I think lack of Alfie Allen's full frontal (despite an apt opportunity) was criminal.

QuoteIn an unconnected comment, I'm noticing the "children" have really grown up since last year. Arya seems to be a foot taller as does Bran, whom I don't think Hodor will be carrying around much anymore. Sansa is blossoming nicely. I thought her bit with Olenna was the best part of the last episoe.

I loved it too, although I missed the "bear" song - or was it sung on another occasion? I read the books 10 years ago or so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 12:07:23 PM
So, no comments yet after the last night's ep?  :huh:

You can do that yourself too, you know.  :P

Really liked it myself, maybe more than the first one. Lady Olenna seems like she'll be a hoot to watch, and the guy that plays Thoros looks very promising.

I liked it less than the first one, I guess, but it could be also because I was so GoT-starved last week.

Really liked all the new characters introduced, though, from the Reeds, to Queen of Thorns, to Ramsay (poor Theon!), to Thoros.

No Danny though. :( I still fail to be at all excited or engaged by Jon Snow plot, too.

It seems to me that we're going to get "Reek" much sooner than in the books...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 02:34:26 PM
Probably. Which makes sense, as otherwise they would need to keep Alfie Allen out of the production for a season or two.

Btw, I have not yet read Dance with Dragons. Will my BDSM proclivities be: satisfied?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 02:38:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 02:34:26 PMBtw, I have not yet read Dance with Dragons. Will my BDSM proclivities be: satisfied?  :ph34r:

It's more Saw than 50 shades of Grey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 08, 2013, 03:26:41 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 12:07:23 PM
So, no comments yet after the last night's ep?  :huh:

You can do that yourself too, you know.  :P

Really liked it myself, maybe more than the first one. Lady Olenna seems like she'll be a hoot to watch, and the guy that plays Thoros looks very promising.

I liked it less than the first one, I guess, but it could be also because I was so GoT-starved last week.

Really liked all the new characters introduced, though, from the Reeds, to Queen of Thorns, to Ramsay (poor Theon!), to Thoros.

No Danny though. :( I still fail to be at all excited or engaged by Jon Snow plot, too.

It seems to me that we're going to get "Reek" much sooner than in the books...

I think it means, instead, that we'll actually see the transition to Reek rather than a huge space of time (books 3-4) in which we don't see Theon at all but only hear mention of him.  The Theon stuff doesn't seem like it will use up much time and it will keep the character in the loop for when he becomes important again in season 5.  Thus far, his added scenes (and the extras with Margaery) have been excellent additions, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 08, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:57:49 PM
I think lack of Alfie Allen's full frontal (despite an apt opportunity) was criminal.

I think you mean - merciful. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 08, 2013, 03:33:01 PM
The books become so disjointed and poorly written that I am willing to excuse creative writing to cover the flaws.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 08, 2013, 04:22:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:57:49 PM
I think lack of Alfie Allen's full frontal (despite an apt opportunity) was criminal.

Once is enough.

Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2013, 01:57:49 PM
I loved it too, although I missed the "bear" song - or was it sung on another occasion? I read the books 10 years ago or so.

The bear song wouldn't have worked on TV - in the book you just read about it, on TV you'd be straining to hear the conversation over the song, if it was anything like in the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2013, 05:04:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 04, 2013, 10:12:56 AM

There were clear advantages to converting in this case though:  While the Andal gods are powerless figments of imagination, the demon R'hlor is probably real and his adherents certainly have sorcery that is unavailable to the other claimants.  The Lannisters and Starks both enjoyed fanatical support in large areas of Westeros, and even Renly enjoyed broad, if rather shallow support.  Stannis lacked these advantages, so he took to magic.

How did the Gods of the Andals become some popular? When the religion originally spread there was plenty of magic. You would think that a religion without any wouldn't catch on. It doesn't really make sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 08, 2013, 05:08:15 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2013, 05:04:45 PM
How did the Gods of the Andals become some popular? When the religion originally spread there was plenty of magic. You would think that a religion without any wouldn't catch on. It doesn't really make sense.
There's an argument(which is not mine) that it was in its origins a fanatically anti-magic faith. That may have been the source of its popularity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 05:36:40 PM
The Old Gods aren't particulary magical. It's not as if the first men were launching fireballs left and right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2013, 06:01:46 PM
Warging seems pretty magical and connected to the Old Gods.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2013, 06:34:53 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2013, 06:01:46 PM
Warging seems pretty magical and connected to the Old Gods.

They are definitely related to the pre-Andal world, but not necessariliy to the Old Gods. The relationships between Old Gods, First Men and Children of the Forest are pretty vague in that sense, and while the Children of the Forest are definitely a magical/fantastical race, the First Men were not, so magic use by them, even if it could have taken place, would not have been a game changer in their conflict with the Andals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 08, 2013, 07:42:16 PM
The Sandals had iron and more sophisticated cavalry. I think that's likely more useful than ability to become a hawk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 08, 2013, 07:50:29 PM
Oh those sandals!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 08, 2013, 08:07:40 PM
Why a hawk and not a bear or a tiger or a dragon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 08, 2013, 08:52:36 PM
QuoteBy the way, did anyone mind Loras being all smiles during the dinner with Cersei? I remember from the books that he was much more moping/drama-ish after Renly's death.
Yeah, that was a little weird. He was mopey for sure, went off on a suicide mission to Dragonstone iirc.
This paints things in a different light to the books really, he doesn't actually care for Renly and was just taking advantage of Renly's gayness and his good looks.

Quote from: Maximus on April 08, 2013, 05:08:15 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2013, 05:04:45 PM
How did the Gods of the Andals become some popular? When the religion originally spread there was plenty of magic. You would think that a religion without any wouldn't catch on. It doesn't really make sense.
There's an argument(which is not mine) that it was in its origins a fanatically anti-magic faith. That may have been the source of its popularity.
Makes sense.
IIRC wasn't there a bit in one of the books that spoke about how Oldtown opened its doors to the Andals and submitted to them without a fight. Given the meisters so want to kill off magic...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 12, 2013, 01:13:13 AM
Synopses of episodes 306-308

SPOILERS

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/synopses-of-episodes-306-308-revealed/#more-25462
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 14, 2013, 09:03:56 PM
Marti will get to hear the Bear Song...twice if he watches the closing credits.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 15, 2013, 01:20:00 PM
Wow. Great episode. Gotta hand it to them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 15, 2013, 01:25:26 PM
The situation in the last scene clearly got out of hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 15, 2013, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2013, 01:25:26 PM
The situation in the last scene clearly got out of hand.

I sort of bitched about the Sansa-QOT-Margaery scene not having butterbumps, but seriously, "the goat" made up for it. First I thought it was some form of corrupt file, but then when I heard the words I just went...

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samanthablackmon.net%2Fnotyourmamasgamer%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F10%2F3698-well-played-300x197.jpg&hash=4b514bd13f2afcbf20f60cf3f2130620b65f21e1)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 15, 2013, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 15, 2013, 01:25:26 PM
The situation in the last scene clearly got out of hand.

Let's not point fingers here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on April 15, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
I hate watching a weekly episode. I watched season one, all one after another when it came out. Same with season two. Flows a lot better. This show is a bunch of disjointed crap viewing it weekly (Grade D+ at best). Did the same with BoB and BSG. They view a lot better.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 15, 2013, 05:51:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3b7fZIT0nk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 15, 2013, 08:33:35 PM
I don't get the song at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 15, 2013, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2013, 08:33:35 PM
I don't get the song at the end.

It's "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" from the books.  Same song the Brotherhood was singing in the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 15, 2013, 08:50:38 PM
Was it this version? I think so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ0rzsNfmIc
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 15, 2013, 08:53:46 PM
Sounds right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2013, 09:04:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 15, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
I hate watching a weekly episode. I watched season one, all one after another when it came out. Same with season two. Flows a lot better. This show is a bunch of disjointed crap viewing it weekly (Grade D+ at best). Did the same with BoB and BSG. They view a lot better.
Yeah this is a show meant to be swallowed in gulps. I'm going to watch the first three episodes tonight I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 15, 2013, 09:08:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 15, 2013, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2013, 08:33:35 PM
I don't get the song at the end.

It's "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" from the books.  Same song the Brotherhood was singing in the episode.

I see, then I ask why?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 12:16:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2013, 09:08:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 15, 2013, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2013, 08:33:35 PM
I don't get the song at the end.

It's "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" from the books.  Same song the Brotherhood was singing in the episode.

I see, then I ask why?

What?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
I like that they made [spoiler]Ramsay Bolton[/spoiler] hot. This is going to elicit a collective what-the-fuck later on.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 16, 2013, 12:46:51 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 15, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
I hate watching a weekly episode. I watched season one, all one after another when it came out. Same with season two. Flows a lot better. This show is a bunch of disjointed crap viewing it weekly (Grade D+ at best). Did the same with BoB and BSG. They view a lot better.
True. It is better to watch such things an episode a day, night after night I find. When I first watched prison break it was years after it was new and in this fashion and I absolutely loved it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 16, 2013, 12:51:50 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 15, 2013, 08:50:38 PM
Was it this version? I think so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ0rzsNfmIc

Pretty sure it was the Hold Steady that Solmyr linked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 16, 2013, 01:41:48 AM
No comments on Pod, God of Whores?  I was amused by that added scene. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:08:03 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 16, 2013, 01:41:48 AM
No comments on Pod, God of Whores?  I was amused by that added scene. :lol:

I really liked the mix of darkness and dark comedy in that episode - it was clear the show has finally felt like its footing is sure enough to pull that of. The Pod scenes were the most lightheartedly amusing, but there also were negotiations between Danny and the slavers, or the Tully funeral, which mixed grimness and humour quite deftly. Not to mention the last scene's shocker breaking into the punk song was awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:22:19 AM
I wonder if for non-book readers the little foreshadowing parts the show drops are as visible and clear as they are to book readers. The last episode had at least three:

[spoiler]- I think the fact that Danny is planning some bait and switch with the slaves-for-dragons deal is clear to most viewers;
- Stannish ranting about wanting Joff and Robb dead felt almost spoilerish;
- The torturer saying "you little bastard" to the "boy", on the other hand, probably won't tell non-readers a lot about the boy's true identity.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
By the way, I have a question to Team Stannish here - now, I always thought him to be repugnant in the books, but he seems somehow even more despicable in his show portrayal - essentially a psychopath. Do you agree or do you still support the show version and find the character likeable?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 16, 2013, 03:43:26 AM
My little brother is really into this show.  I've like watched only two episodes total.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 16, 2013, 06:02:40 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 16, 2013, 01:41:48 AM
No comments on Pod, God of Whores?  I was amused by that added scene. :lol:

We are going to need details, copious amounts of details.

Best line of the episode.  :lol:

Extra :nerd: points for recognizing the "Meereneese knot" reference. :p

Also, loved the pantomime scene at the Small Council meeting with the chair rearrangement.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 16, 2013, 06:19:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 16, 2013, 06:02:40 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 16, 2013, 01:41:48 AM
No comments on Pod, God of Whores?  I was amused by that added scene. :lol:

We are going to need details, copious amounts of details.

Best line of the episode.  :lol:
That one line is going to have to make up for pages and pages of poderickian characterdevelopment in the books.
Quote from: The Larch on April 16, 2013, 06:02:40 AM
Extra :nerd: points for recognizing the "Meereneese knot" reference. :p

the reference made it to my facebook status

QuoteI don't know what D&D were thinking but the Myrenese Knot is NOT a reward for good service it is a punishment for showing mercy.

Quote from: The Larch on April 16, 2013, 06:02:40 AM
Also, loved the pantomime scene at the Small Council meeting with the chair rearrangement.

Tywin is fucking with peoples' heads. But, referring to the Machiavelli as guide to child rearing thread and my comments on how to keep a happy dog. The Lannister kids are the only ones in that meeting that both don't know where they should sit and think they are in their deserved place.

But still kudos to the D&D idea. Cersei puts herself at her fathers right hand symbolizing herself as he fathers trusted "man" and/or heir. Tyrion sits across from Tywin symbolizing himself as the antagonist and/or honoured guest. Tywin then proceeds to treat each of them as neither, he ignores cersei and treats Tyrion as a minon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 16, 2013, 08:53:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:22:19 AM
I wonder if for non-book readers the little foreshadowing parts the show drops are as visible and clear as they are to book readers. The last episode had at least three:

Of course it is visible.  Since season 1, they make über obvious on tv what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 16, 2013, 08:58:07 AM
The Hold Steady version of the song will be available  as a 7-inch single this weekend on Record Day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:01:58 AM
OK, I am kind of confused by what they are doing with Theon, and who that guy is - is the guy who "rescued" him supposed to be the Bastard? Why would he kill all his own men?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:01:58 AM
OK, I am kind of confused by what they are doing with Theon, and who that guy is - is the guy who "rescued" him supposed to be the Bastard? Why would he kill all his own men?

Because that's how he rolls. [spoiler]He is a psychopath who enjoys games like this and wants to mind-fuck Theon completely, Stockholm-syndrome style.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:01:58 AM
OK, I am kind of confused by what they are doing with Theon, and who that guy is - is the guy who "rescued" him supposed to be the Bastard? Why would he kill all his own men?

Because that's how he rolls. [spoiler]He is a psychopath who enjoys games like this and wants to mind-fuck Theon completely, Stockholm-syndrome style.[/spoiler]

That is stupid. You can't be a lord if you go around killing several of your own men just for giggles. You won't have any men rather quickly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:59:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:01:58 AM
OK, I am kind of confused by what they are doing with Theon, and who that guy is - is the guy who "rescued" him supposed to be the Bastard? Why would he kill all his own men?

Because that's how he rolls. [spoiler]He is a psychopath who enjoys games like this and wants to mind-fuck Theon completely, Stockholm-syndrome style.[/spoiler]

That is stupid. You can't be a lord if you go around killing several of your own men just for giggles. You won't have any men rather quickly.

He is not a lord. He is a bastard and a psychopath and his "men" are psychopaths like him, not vassals in the feudal sense. He is known to rape, hunt, kill and flay (not necessarily in that order) women for sport, and murdered his own brother.

He had those men torture Theon, to appear as a saviour, because he wants to completely mind-fuck him. And in this situation, there is no way for his other men to find out he killed these four, so he is not risking some sort of morale breakdown.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 16, 2013, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
By the way, I have a question to Team Stannish here - now, I always thought him to be repugnant in the books, but he seems somehow even more despicable in his show portrayal - essentially a psychopath. Do you agree or do you still support the show version and find the character likeable?
Moreso than Renly.  All fags must hang.  Or failing that, be killed by shadow-demon assassins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 10:22:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:59:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:01:58 AM
OK, I am kind of confused by what they are doing with Theon, and who that guy is - is the guy who "rescued" him supposed to be the Bastard? Why would he kill all his own men?

Because that's how he rolls. [spoiler]He is a psychopath who enjoys games like this and wants to mind-fuck Theon completely, Stockholm-syndrome style.[/spoiler]

That is stupid. You can't be a lord if you go around killing several of your own men just for giggles. You won't have any men rather quickly.

He is not a lord. He is a bastard and a psychopath and his "men" are psychopaths like him, not vassals in the feudal sense. He is known to rape, hunt, kill and flay (not necessarily in that order) women for sport, and murdered his own brother.

He had those men torture Theon, to appear as a saviour, because he wants to completely mind-fuck him. And in this situation, there is no way for his other men to find out he killed these four, so he is not risking some sort of morale breakdown.

He is a lord to the extent that he has men who follow him and he relies on their loyalty for his own power.

And it doesn't matter if his other men cannot find out (and of course they certainly can - it's not like Bolton could be sure he would be able to kill all four of his own men without any escaping), they are going to I don't know, wonder where their four other buddies disappeared to?

The fact that he is a psycopath who surrounds himself with others of like psychology is fine - such is reflected in the books. But that doesn't mean that they will just follow him no matter what he does TO THEM. Rape, kill, flay others? Sure.

Martin got this - he understood the means by which men control other men. Hell, one can argue that the basic concept of loyalty to a "lord" and the power it conveys is one of the very foundations of the entire series. What is power? is a theme that pervades the entire series. Power is perception, it is based on what those who follow you believe. They may follow for a variety of reasons - fear, money, honor, duty, love.

But nobody follows someone who they think is just going to murder them on a whim, especially one who has no power otherwise.

I am honestly surprised Martin didn't object to this change in the story. It simply makes no sense. If the Bastard was the kind of man who would do something like this, he would never have any followers to begin with. Certainly Theon is not so extra special that he warrants Bolton setting up such an elaborate ruse and then actually murdering his own men just to mess with some captives head.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 16, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
We are assuming that they are his own men.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 10:48:07 AM
Berkut, I am really not interested in discussing this - you obviously have one opinion, I have another, and there is no point in rehashing this further.

One point though, for the record: so far there has been no change of story. The part of Theon's storyline that is now played out on season 3 is not in the books (and it is not inconsistent with the scant information about it that we know from the books, when they pick up Theon's storyline at a later time).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 10:51:35 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 16, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
We are assuming that they are his own men.

There is that, too. There has been a change to the storyline, indeed, in that Ramsey was not in Winterfell when Theon was captured (at least as far as we know) so the people torturing him may be just a bunch of cruel Northerners of any allegiance (including, Roose Bolton's men).

Edit: They could have also been a bunch of men he hired for this specific task (i.e. torturing Theon), intending to murder them from the very beginning.

In short, we don't know and going on about how this is shoddy plot without knowing more makes no sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 16, 2013, 10:53:11 AM
:lol:

Even in the books, Ramsay is almost cartoonish in his villainy.  It makes one wonder how he got away with his behavior for so long, given how much less subtle he is than his father.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 16, 2013, 12:19:29 PM
Hah, that's what you get for throwing a kid out of a window. :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 16, 2013, 12:29:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 10:48:07 AM
Berkut, I am really not interested in discussing this - you obviously have one opinion, I have another, and there is no point in rehashing this further.
Languish is dying.  :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 12:48:56 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 16, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
We are assuming that they are his own men.

So maybe they are some other men who specifically like to torture people in exactly the same manner the Bastard does?

I suppose that is possible.

Maybe there will be some explanation forthcoming that makes this look like more than just bad writing. I hope so. Right now it just looks like a poor attempt to make the Bastard look REALLY REALLY REALLY EVIL in a manner that makes little sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 16, 2013, 12:19:29 PM
Hah, that's what you get for throwing a kid out of a window. :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

No, that's what you get for preventing a gang rape. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 16, 2013, 01:27:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 12:48:56 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 16, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
We are assuming that they are his own men.

So maybe they are some other men who specifically like to torture people in exactly the same manner the Bastard does?

I suppose that is possible.

Maybe there will be some explanation forthcoming that makes this look like more than just bad writing. I hope so. Right now it just looks like a poor attempt to make the Bastard look REALLY REALLY REALLY EVIL in a manner that makes little sense.

Speculation out of the fact that you read the books.

but you are very right, if they were his men & he's Bolton, this is very stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 16, 2013, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
I like that they made [spoiler]Ramsay Bolton[/spoiler] hot. This is going to elicit a collective what-the-fuck later on.  :lol:
How have you not watched Misfits?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 16, 2013, 01:40:01 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 16, 2013, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
I like that they made [spoiler]Ramsay Bolton[/spoiler] hot. This is going to elicit a collective what-the-fuck later on.  :lol:
How have you not watched Misfits?

It's not on the BBC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2013, 02:10:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
I like that they made [spoiler]Ramsay Bolton[/spoiler] hot. This is going to elicit a collective what-the-fuck later on.  :lol:

That's the creepy, weird kid from the Misfits.

Ah, quite a bit late but still I think adding in the creepy weird part is important. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:15:50 PM
Why is it always that creepy weird nerds with superpowers end up playing a serial killer on another show? Or Spock.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 16, 2013, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:15:50 PM
Why is it always that creepy weird nerds with superpowers end up playing a serial killer on another show? Or Spock.

Why is it that you always want to suck the toes of the creepy weird nerds?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 16, 2013, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:15:50 PM
Why is it always that creepy weird nerds with superpowers end up playing a serial killer on another show? Or Spock.

Why is it that you always want to suck the toes of the creepy weird nerds?

Well I guess I just realized that I am kinda attracted to the type. This also includes Michael C. Hall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 16, 2013, 02:35:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 16, 2013, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:15:50 PM
Why is it always that creepy weird nerds with superpowers end up playing a serial killer on another show? Or Spock.

Why is it that you always want to suck the toes of the creepy weird nerds?

Well I guess I just realized that I am kinda attracted to the type. This also includes Michael C. Hall.

All Serial Killers I must observe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
Well, I started liking Michael C. Hall when he was only a creepy funeral house director.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 16, 2013, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
Well, I started liking Michael C. Hall when he was only a creepy funeral house director.

Still lots of dead bodies. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 16, 2013, 02:58:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
Well, I started liking Michael C. Hall when he was only a creepy funeral house director.

David Fisher was not creepy!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2013, 02:58:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 16, 2013, 02:58:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
Well, I started liking Michael C. Hall when he was only a creepy funeral house director.

David Fisher was not creepy!

He looked creepy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 16, 2013, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 16, 2013, 02:58:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
Well, I started liking Michael C. Hall when he was only a creepy funeral house director.

David Fisher was not creepy!

Compared to Nate, yes he was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 16, 2013, 04:25:22 PM
they were both pretty creepy. And the sister with the foot in her locker. Hell, that whole family was wacko
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 16, 2013, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
By the way, I have a question to Team Stannish here - now, I always thought him to be repugnant in the books, but he seems somehow even more despicable in his show portrayal - essentially a psychopath. Do you agree or do you still support the show version and find the character likeable?
I'm not a fan of the changes.  He's not nearly as supportable in the series beyond his claim to the throne.  In the books, he had the best claim and a sense of honor and dedication to justice. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 16, 2013, 08:26:35 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 16, 2013, 04:25:22 PM
they were both pretty creepy. And the sister with the foot in her locker. Hell, that whole family was wacko

Speaking of that, watching the last what, 6 minutes or so of that show, gets me crying every time without fail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 16, 2013, 08:51:57 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 10:22:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 09:59:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 16, 2013, 09:49:38 AM


That is stupid. You can't be a lord if you go around killing several of your own men just for giggles. You won't have any men rather quickly.

He is not a lord. He is a bastard and a psychopath and his "men" are psychopaths like him, not vassals in the feudal sense. He is known to rape, hunt, kill and flay (not necessarily in that order) women for sport, and murdered his own brother.

He had those men torture Theon, to appear as a saviour, because he wants to completely mind-fuck him. And in this situation, there is no way for his other men to find out he killed these four, so he is not risking some sort of morale breakdown.

He is a lord to the extent that he has men who follow him and he relies on their loyalty for his own power.

And it doesn't matter if his other men cannot find out (and of course they certainly can - it's not like Bolton could be sure he would be able to kill all four of his own men without any escaping), they are going to I don't know, wonder where their four other buddies disappeared to?

The fact that he is a psycopath who surrounds himself with others of like psychology is fine - such is reflected in the books. But that doesn't mean that they will just follow him no matter what he does TO THEM. Rape, kill, flay others? Sure.

Martin got this - he understood the means by which men control other men. Hell, one can argue that the basic concept of loyalty to a "lord" and the power it conveys is one of the very foundations of the entire series. What is power? is a theme that pervades the entire series. Power is perception, it is based on what those who follow you believe. They may follow for a variety of reasons - fear, money, honor, duty, love.

But nobody follows someone who they think is just going to murder them on a whim, especially one who has no power otherwise.

I am honestly surprised Martin didn't object to this change in the story. It simply makes no sense. If the Bastard was the kind of man who would do something like this, he would never have any followers to begin with. Certainly Theon is not so extra special that he warrants Bolton setting up such an elaborate ruse and then actually murdering his own men just to mess with some captives head.

My only guess is that those men he sent were men he wanted rid of. A bit too loyal too his father and non-approving of Ramsey's hobbies. Getting rid of them will allow him to put his own men in their place too.
It really does seem weird however, some odd head fucking going on there, I hope they're not changing things too radically just to have more Theon time,
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 16, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 16, 2013, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
By the way, I have a question to Team Stannish here - now, I always thought him to be repugnant in the books, but he seems somehow even more despicable in his show portrayal - essentially a psychopath. Do you agree or do you still support the show version and find the character likeable?
I'm not a fan of the changes.  He's not nearly as supportable in the series beyond his claim to the throne.  In the books, he had the best claim and a sense of honor and dedication to justice. <_<
We always see Stannis from the point of view of Davos, his most loyal follower. Everyone else seems to hate him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 16, 2013, 09:58:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 16, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 16, 2013, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
By the way, I have a question to Team Stannish here - now, I always thought him to be repugnant in the books, but he seems somehow even more despicable in his show portrayal - essentially a psychopath. Do you agree or do you still support the show version and find the character likeable?
I'm not a fan of the changes.  He's not nearly as supportable in the series beyond his claim to the throne.  In the books, he had the best claim and a sense of honor and dedication to justice. <_<
We always see Stannis from the point of view of Davos, his most loyal follower. Everyone else seems to hate him.

In the Jon and Asha chapters where Stannis is in the north we get the same impression as the one Davos gives us. They too describe him in the same way and seem to blame Melisandre and the Queens men for the wickedness. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 16, 2013, 10:19:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2013, 08:26:35 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 16, 2013, 04:25:22 PM
they were both pretty creepy. And the sister with the foot in her locker. Hell, that whole family was wacko

Speaking of that, watching the last what, 6 minutes or so of that show, gets me crying every time without fail.

I can't think of a show that had a better series finale than that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 16, 2013, 11:22:38 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 16, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 16, 2013, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 16, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
By the way, I have a question to Team Stannish here - now, I always thought him to be repugnant in the books, but he seems somehow even more despicable in his show portrayal - essentially a psychopath. Do you agree or do you still support the show version and find the character likeable?
I'm not a fan of the changes.  He's not nearly as supportable in the series beyond his claim to the throne.  In the books, he had the best claim and a sense of honor and dedication to justice. <_<
We always see Stannis from the point of view of Davos, his most loyal follower. Everyone else seems to hate him.
Somewhat true, though there is a fair bit of talk about him from others which mentions him being a bit of a dull stickler of a man. The only other true POV we get is Jon where...yeah, he does come across as a bit of a dick.
TV series Stannis however certainly comes across as somewhat psychotic and not merely misled as the book man.

In the TV series have we ever seen or heard much of Stannis' wife? IIRC she shows up in the first Stannis scene but not much beyond. Nothing at all on his daughter....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on April 16, 2013, 11:29:41 PM
In the books though, it was fairly clear that the Bastard was out of control, something that his own father chastened him for.  Who knows where that storyline is going - the Bastard's actions making people turn against the Boltons may well be an important future development.  In transitions from book to the screen, often certain character traits are highlighted through actions to make future related developments more explicable to the audience.

Besides, I don't really think a psycho lordling in the Seven Kingdoms out with a gang of lowborn psychos murdering a few of them for fun is terribly improbable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 12:16:30 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 16, 2013, 08:26:35 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 16, 2013, 04:25:22 PM
they were both pretty creepy. And the sister with the foot in her locker. Hell, that whole family was wacko

Speaking of that, watching the last what, 6 minutes or so of that show, gets me crying every time without fail.

Yeah. Six Feet Under was to me the first "new style" HBO/Showtime show that I watched. And I loved the fact that it had a definite end (although it could have probably ended a season earlier).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 12:19:56 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2013, 08:51:57 PMIt really does seem weird however, some odd head fucking going on there, I hope they're not changing things too radically just to have more Theon time,

People seem to forget that in the books Ramsey would release Theon only to hunt him down again and keeps playing with him that way. We do not know the details and we learn of it through Theon's memories, once he is already broken and half-mad. So I will repeat again - nothing in what happened in this episode contradicts anything we know from the books.

It seems like Ramsey wants to build this so Theon becomes fully dependent and reliant on him - only then to break Theon in fully by turning on him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 17, 2013, 01:04:05 AM
The books said nothing about Ramsey killing his own men. It is in fact a departure. They said he had been allowed to escape, but of course Ramsey murdering his own men would likely have been mentioned had it happened. Theon certainly never mentioned it, and of course he would have since the entire point of Ramsey killing his men is presumably so Theon can see him do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 01:34:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 17, 2013, 01:04:05 AM
The books said nothing about Ramsey killing his own men. It is in fact a departure. They said he had been allowed to escape, but of course Ramsey murdering his own men would likely have been mentioned had it happened. Theon certainly never mentioned it, and of course he would have since the entire point of Ramsey killing his men is presumably so Theon can see him do it.

What part of "memories of broken and half-mad Theon" did you not understand? Theon doesn't know his true identity any more, and we only see the past through his disjointed recollections.

Jesus, you are so tedious to talk to sometimes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 05:10:50 AM
Best reviewer comment: Glad to see HBO found a use for all the horses they killed during the filming of Luck.  :XD:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 17, 2013, 05:31:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2013, 11:22:38 PMIn the TV series have we ever seen or heard much of Stannis' wife? IIRC she shows up in the first Stannis scene but not much beyond. Nothing at all on his daughter....

I think his wife doesn't appear even then, but IIRC the casted a young actress for the daughter's role for this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 17, 2013, 05:43:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 05:10:50 AM
Best reviewer comment: Glad to see HBO found a use for all the horses they killed during the filming of Luck.  :XD:
:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 05:51:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2013, 05:31:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2013, 11:22:38 PMIn the TV series have we ever seen or heard much of Stannis' wife? IIRC she shows up in the first Stannis scene but not much beyond. Nothing at all on his daughter....

I think his wife doesn't appear even then, but IIRC the casted a young actress for the daughter's role for this season.

So far, I have no problem with any characters that were written out of the tv series. Unlike the books, the pace of the show is such, introducing too many secondary characters who play no important role would be too confusing for the viewers.

Although, I'm slightly bummed that there will be no Strong Belwas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 17, 2013, 05:55:33 AM
Strong Belwas is an excellent candidate for removal. Everything he does can easily be transfered to an already existing character without the plot being affected in the slightest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2013, 06:15:02 AM
Excellent ratings

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/game-of-thrones-breaks-rating-record-once-more/

QuoteIt is Tuesday, and TV by the Numbers has the numbers again. They went up, and broke the previous record by a considerable margin (by 350,000 to be exact)!

    Game of Thrones was Sunday's top cable original with a 2.4 up from last week's 2.3 adults 18-49 rating.

In absolute numbers, the show was seen by 4.72 million people during its original airing, while another 1.04 million were added to the tally during the 11 PM repeat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 17, 2013, 07:03:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 05:51:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 17, 2013, 05:31:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 16, 2013, 11:22:38 PMIn the TV series have we ever seen or heard much of Stannis' wife? IIRC she shows up in the first Stannis scene but not much beyond. Nothing at all on his daughter....

I think his wife doesn't appear even then, but IIRC the casted a young actress for the daughter's role for this season.

So far, I have no problem with any characters that were written out of the tv series. Unlike the books, the pace of the show is such, introducing too many secondary characters who play no important role would be too confusing for the viewers.

Although, I'm slightly bummed that there will be no Strong Belwas.

Stannis not having a family really changes his dynamic with the red woman however.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 17, 2013, 09:14:14 AM
Stan is has a family, we haven't seen it yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 17, 2013, 09:19:36 AM
Guess its just me. Didn't finish the first two episodes and didn't bother watching the third.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 10:13:20 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 17, 2013, 09:14:14 AM
Stan is has a family, we haven't seen it yet.
I think we saw his daughter.  And Mellissandre practically told him to sacrifice her in the last episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 10:13:20 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 17, 2013, 09:14:14 AM
Stan is has a family, we haven't seen it yet.
I think we saw his daughter.  And Mellissandre practically told him to sacrifice her in the last episode.

I think she was actually alluding to any (surviving) Robert's bastards. And since they merged Edric Storm with Gendry we know where this (and she) is heading - to meet a fellow priest of Rhaellor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 01:52:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 10:29:07 AM
I think she was actually alluding to any (surviving) Robert's bastards.
IIRC, in the tv series, only Gendry is alive, and no one really knows who he is...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 17, 2013, 01:55:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 01:52:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 10:29:07 AM
I think she was actually alluding to any (surviving) Robert's bastards.
IIRC, in the tv series, only Gendry is alive, and no one really knows who he is...

Tobho Mott does. Possibly Varys as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
Well, ok, I'll try to rephrase that:
not many people know who Gendry really is, and it's unlikely Melissandre knows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 17, 2013, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
Well, ok, I'll try to rephrase that:
not many people know who Gendry really is, and it's unlikely Melissandre knows.

I don't know man she has those crazy magic sight powers. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2013, 05:16:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 17, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
Well, ok, I'll try to rephrase that:
not many people know who Gendry really is, and it's unlikely Melissandre knows.

The bitch can spawn shadow assassins. I wouldnt put a little bit of divination past her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2013, 05:23:00 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 17, 2013, 09:19:36 AM
Guess its just me. Didn't finish the first two episodes and didn't bother watching the third.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about The English Patient.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 11:00:13 AM
 I was possessed with a real sense of loyalty to the true king of westeros, and wrote a sonnet in his honour. Put in spoilers, as it references material from beyond the scope of the TV series.

Quote
[spoiler]
The red woman finds Snow in her fires;
the shadow demon casts Stannis aside
a sorceress tempting baser desires
stains the dignity of great Stannis's pride

Duty and law are nothing divine;
friends and fire are not His source of renown
not for our lord is laughter and wine
but the weight of rule and an iron crown

Our sovereign staggers alone in the ice
besieging Boltons without any relief
the steel in his soul leaves no room for vice
but unbent justice and grinding of teeth

Should Stannis widow his unsmiling queen
The burning heart lies with moé Shireen
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 18, 2013, 11:19:22 AM
I'd have thought that you'd support the various regional independence movements -- The North, Dorne, and especially the Iron Islands. Stannis would be a supreme centralizer, and in any event the preservation of the Targaryen Empire under anyone would lead to the continued homogenization of Westerosi culture.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
*especially* the iron islands? Those goons, those worse-than-vikings, those unreasoning savages? They are wholly unsympathetic and attacked Robb Stark, who is the gallant young wolf everyone sympathizes with.

  Of course i'd prefer a world in which there was a king in the north, and the iron throne ruled over the remainder of the kingdom. The iron isles are too savage to be trusted with independence; they make war on the entire world, and shouldn't be surprised to find the hands of all men turned against them. Dorne shows little signs of wanting independence- it is culturally distinctive, but no more than that.

(Furthermore, the dornish are brown and lewd, which makes them beyond the pale for different reasons than the ironborn.)

It is the case that Stannis would not accept a broken realm, and it is unfortunate.  But Stannis is the embodiment of loyalty and fidelity, which is the highest virtue. As for the North, the late Ned Stark supported him as the just ruler, which stamps legitimacy on his reign of the north, beyond the pledge of hillfolk such as the Norreys and Wulls. The North is the only kingdom whose secession is valid, and after its valiant efforts at independence drowned in blood, Stannis is the man to bind its wounds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 18, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
But Stannis is the embodiment of loyalty and fidelity, which is the highest virtue.
I wouldn't go quite that far.  After all, he betrayed his wife.  That sort of knocks him down into a tie with Ned Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 12:50:44 PM
That's fair. He does some questionable things, and they are almost all traceable to that demon-worshiper he keeps company with. But tied with Ned Stark is a pretty virtuous place to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2013, 01:47:28 PM
Fun fact: apparently, based on the last two episodes, there are already fansites for fangirls shipping (a fangirl term for rooting for a certain romantic pairing) Alfie Allen's and Iwan Rheon's characters. :bleeding:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.pandawhale.com%2F14459-Nathan-Fillion-speechless-gif-eGOv.gif&hash=b6bd0667f2fd963c4722a7b547d7e80dd61e2d75)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2013, 05:09:03 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
But Stannis is the embodiment of loyalty and fidelity, which is the highest virtue.
I wouldn't go quite that far.  After all, he betrayed his wife.  That sort of knocks him down into a tie with Ned Stark.
R+L = J :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on April 21, 2013, 05:14:34 PM
I can't wait until Jon takes off and nukes the whole continent from orbit- it's the only way to make sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 21, 2013, 05:16:34 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2013, 05:09:03 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
But Stannis is the embodiment of loyalty and fidelity, which is the highest virtue.
I wouldn't go quite that far.  After all, he betrayed his wife.  That sort of knocks him down into a tie with Ned Stark.
R+L = J :contract:
I'm talking about his lying to Robert, you fag.  And even if that theory holds up, he committed an evil act by not killing Jon when he was a baby and ending Rhaegar's twisted line.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 21, 2013, 05:54:34 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2013, 05:09:03 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 18, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 18, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
But Stannis is the embodiment of loyalty and fidelity, which is the highest virtue.
I wouldn't go quite that far.  After all, he betrayed his wife.  That sort of knocks him down into a tie with Ned Stark.
R+L = J :contract:

Raz + Legbiter = Jimmy Olsen?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I'm liking Danaerys's story the best. Loved the final sequence with her "airforce" flying over her army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:08:21 PM
Daenerys is trending on Twitter. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 12:22:00 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I'm liking Danaerys's story the best. Loved the final sequence with her "airforce" flying over her army.

Dunno about the tv, but it seems that for book readers her storyline is the most divisive one - some people love her and some people hate her. Personally, her "trade" in Astapor was one of the most satisfying events in the books for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2013, 01:01:46 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdhehEqo.jpg&hash=a0bf7054e8864c120e15e2a659c1a646d3769724)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 22, 2013, 01:02:40 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I'm liking Danaerys's story the best. Loved the final sequence with her "airforce" flying over her army.
totally agree with you :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 22, 2013, 01:06:42 AM
I wish the unsullied used pikes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 22, 2013, 01:28:26 AM
All of my favorite characters seem to get a lot of their storyline cut/altered or made into villains.  See: The Hound, Davos Seaworth, and Stannis Baratheon.  I'm hoping The Hound manages to get a bit more airtime in the coming weeks, and the setup for the fight gives me some hope.  Davos continues to languish with Stannis on irrelevant isle, so maybe in another week or two we can see them again.  Sidenote:  Hooray for Pod, the envy of King's Landing! :cheers:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 01:41:24 AM
I liked the late reveal with "Valyrian, motherfuckers, I speak it" - I think it works that way much better than in the books (where it would have been hard to keep it secret from readers, as we are inside Danny's head so to speak).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 22, 2013, 07:29:01 AM
Is she speaking High Valyrian and the others have been speaking Ghiscari? They made two quite different languages.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:38:51 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 22, 2013, 07:29:01 AM
Is she speaking High Valyrian and the others have been speaking Ghiscari? They made two quite different languages.
They're speaking modern Ghiscari, not old Ghiscari.  The old Ghiscari were pretty much annihilated, and the people living in Slaver's Bay now who call themselves Ghiscari are mostly descendants of Valyria with a little bit of cultural inspiration from Old Ghis.  The differences probaby aren't that great.  After all, the Doom was only four hundred years ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:43:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 12:22:00 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I'm liking Danaerys's story the best. Loved the final sequence with her "airforce" flying over her army.
Dunno about the tv, but it seems that for book readers her storyline is the most divisive one - some people love her and some people hate her. Personally, her "trade" in Astapor was one of the most satisfying events in the books for me.
Yeah, but that's sort of where things began to change.  Up until this point, Danaerys was universally enjoyed by the readers.  The more she gets into her crusade in Slaver's Bay, the worse it gets and by the time she's in Meereen, nobody has any idea what the hell she's doing anymore.  Well, she's waiting for Tyrion Lannister to show up and lead her to victory, but it's a long, painful wait.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 22, 2013, 07:55:58 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:38:51 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 22, 2013, 07:29:01 AM
Is she speaking High Valyrian and the others have been speaking Ghiscari? They made two quite different languages.
They're speaking modern Ghiscari, not old Ghiscari.  The old Ghiscari were pretty much annihilated, and the people living in Slaver's Bay now who call themselves Ghiscari are mostly descendants of Valyria with a little bit of cultural inspiration from Old Ghis.  The differences probaby aren't that great.  After all, the Doom was only four hundred years ago.
An interview compared Ghiscari (by that I mean the Valyrian based language) to Valyrian to Cato to Old Spanish. There's a big gap there. I think Danny was speaking Valyrian, but could make out Ghiscari.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2013, 08:09:56 AM
Sacking slaver cities and all the "drama" that went with it will look a lot better on screen than on the page I think. That'll be her season 4 arc, and then we'll see Tyrion meet up with her in season 5 I bet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 22, 2013, 08:20:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 12:22:00 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I'm liking Danaerys's story the best. Loved the final sequence with her "airforce" flying over her army.

Dunno about the tv, but it seems that for book readers her storyline is the most divisive one - some people love her and some people hate her. Personally, her "trade" in Astapor was one of the most satisfying events in the books for me.

I kinda missed the "Mother! Mother!" scene from this episode, as it was very emotionally powerful and a good counter to her violent reprisal on the slavers. Hopefully they'll include it in a later scene, perhaps in Meereen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2013, 08:23:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2013, 08:09:56 AM
Sacking slaver cities and all the "drama" that went with it will look a lot better on screen than on the page I think. That'll be her season 4 arc, and then we'll see Tyrion meet up with her in season 5 I bet.

I dunno, they just passed on having her sack her first city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 08:26:09 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 22, 2013, 08:20:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 12:22:00 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 21, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I'm liking Danaerys's story the best. Loved the final sequence with her "airforce" flying over her army.

Dunno about the tv, but it seems that for book readers her storyline is the most divisive one - some people love her and some people hate her. Personally, her "trade" in Astapor was one of the most satisfying events in the books for me.

I kinda missed the "Mother! Mother!" scene from this episode, as it was very emotionally powerful and a good counter to her violent reprisal on the slavers. Hopefully they'll include it in a later scene, perhaps in Meereen.

The final episode of this season is titled "Mhysa" which means "Mother" in Valyrian so I suspect that's going to be that.

By the way, I liked the musical and visual flashbacks to season 1 finale - including Jorah's expression which was sorta like "ok, we really need to talk about your penchant for burning everything in the eyesight".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 08:46:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2013, 08:23:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2013, 08:09:56 AM
Sacking slaver cities and all the "drama" that went with it will look a lot better on screen than on the page I think. That'll be her season 4 arc, and then we'll see Tyrion meet up with her in season 5 I bet.

I dunno, they just passed on having her sack her first city.

By the way, were you happy with the Ramsay storyline ("oh, he killed those man, not me") or did you expect something more? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 22, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
Did things go that way at Craster's in the books? I can't recall that.....what happened to the other women?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 08:51:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 22, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
Did things go that way at Craster's in the books? I can't recall that.....what happened to the other women?

Raped?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 09:03:33 AM
So, I am usually reading a lot of recaps and reviews of these episodes and they often discuss how a lot of episodes, despite being seemingly random in their choice of storylines, in fact are arranged thematically - and I wonder if "normal" tv viewers notice that too.

For example, they concluded that the last episode was about betrayals - Mormont (and earlier, Kraster) by some of the Night Watch scum; the slavers by Danny; Theon by Ramsey; etc.

The last week's episode, on the other hand, was about just and unjust punishments - slaves on the Walk of Punishment; Theon getting beaten up and nearly raped; Jaime getting his hand chopped off; and so forth.

I wonder if the writers are actually writing all of this like that, or is this simply spotting patterns where there are none.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2013, 09:03:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 08:46:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2013, 08:23:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2013, 08:09:56 AM
Sacking slaver cities and all the "drama" that went with it will look a lot better on screen than on the page I think. That'll be her season 4 arc, and then we'll see Tyrion meet up with her in season 5 I bet.

I dunno, they just passed on having her sack her first city.

By the way, were you happy with the Ramsay storyline ("oh, he killed those man, not me") or did you expect something more? :P

No, that was just what I expected. They started a crappy and stupid plot idea, of course they are going to finish it out. Not like it makes any more sense now than it did before because he made up a story that is clearly easily disproved.

I guess he is just hoping nobody notices the bodies of his men full of arrows...when Theon has no bow or means to get one? Everyone is just supposed to believe that Theon, weak, tortured, and in rather decidedly poor health, killed 4 or 5 men all by himself while Ramsey was busy doing...what? And then Ramsey captures him without taking a scratch? Uh huh.

It makes no sense at all, it doesn't work logically or with the characters. But whatever. If this is the largest "roll-eyes" plot device in the show, we will be in pretty damn good shape.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 22, 2013, 09:26:52 AM
I liked Dany in last night's episode. I had forgotten some of the details from the book but I was waiting for her to act, as I knew she wasn't giving up any dragons. I had also forgotten that she could speak Valyrian but I was figuring she could and knew all along what was being said. Very cool all around, she's one of my favorite characters from the books. I like the actress playing her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 22, 2013, 10:35:26 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 22, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
Did things go that way at Craster's in the books? I can't recall that.....what happened to the other women?
very similar IIRC.  Some details may have been changed, but there was indeed a fight over Craster's food store and the Night Comander was killed, and Sam escape with Gilli.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 22, 2013, 10:37:50 AM
Quote from: KRonn on April 22, 2013, 09:26:52 AM
I liked Dany in last night's episode. I had forgotten some of the details from the book but I was waiting for her to act, as I knew she wasn't giving up any dragons. I had also forgotten that she could speak Valyrian but I was figuring she could and knew all along what was being said. Very cool all around, she's one of my favorite characters from the books. I like the actress playing her.
can't remember the books, if we knew from the beginning, but in the tv series, it was kinda noticeable that she understood the guy but was trying not to show it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 10:57:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 22, 2013, 10:37:50 AM
Quote from: KRonn on April 22, 2013, 09:26:52 AM
I liked Dany in last night's episode. I had forgotten some of the details from the book but I was waiting for her to act, as I knew she wasn't giving up any dragons. I had also forgotten that she could speak Valyrian but I was figuring she could and knew all along what was being said. Very cool all around, she's one of my favorite characters from the books. I like the actress playing her.
can't remember the books, if we knew from the beginning, but in the tv series, it was kinda noticeable that she understood the guy but was trying not to show it.

As I said before, in the books we are inside her head so it is kinda obvious we knew from the beginning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 22, 2013, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 10:57:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 22, 2013, 10:37:50 AM
Quote from: KRonn on April 22, 2013, 09:26:52 AM
I liked Dany in last night's episode. I had forgotten some of the details from the book but I was waiting for her to act, as I knew she wasn't giving up any dragons. I had also forgotten that she could speak Valyrian but I was figuring she could and knew all along what was being said. Very cool all around, she's one of my favorite characters from the books. I like the actress playing her.
can't remember the books, if we knew from the beginning, but in the tv series, it was kinda noticeable that she understood the guy but was trying not to show it.

As I said before, in the books we are inside her head so it is kinda obvious we knew from the beginning.

I was wondering how they handle that in the book. I had figured it out as a quirk of the TV show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 22, 2013, 11:12:16 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Fafeea73200a272d1ef43d189a92d5aad%2Ftumblr_mln127cUuE1qhnk1to2_500.gif&hash=4bdce9dc922595a803ea2b6e310a450dfb631e1f)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 11:59:21 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 22, 2013, 11:12:16 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Fafeea73200a272d1ef43d189a92d5aad%2Ftumblr_mln127cUuE1qhnk1to2_500.gif&hash=4bdce9dc922595a803ea2b6e310a450dfb631e1f)

Apparently, this screencap is currently very popular on deviantart.com. So I've been told. :whistle:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 22, 2013, 02:23:59 PM
The show also had to make up a few new languages for the actors to use and be consistent with.   :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 02:47:39 PM
I think Emilia Clarke's delivery of Valyrian was flawless. While the guy playing the slaver sounded a bit like he was declaiming, there was real emotion in her KILL BURNINATE MWHAHAHA.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 22, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
I like how the legend of Pod the stud keeps growing.  :lol: Great comedy relief.

Btw, Sansa keeps getting tricked...this girl will never learn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 22, 2013, 03:35:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 22, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
Btw, Sansa keeps getting tricked...this girl will never learn.

Oh for Godsake she is still a kid.  I mean she literally has nobody she can rely on and this is a nest of vipers where even Tyrion gets tricked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 03:42:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 22, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
I like how the legend of Pod the stud keeps growing.  :lol: Great comedy relief.

Btw, Sansa keeps getting tricked...this girl will never learn.

Well, there could be worse fates for her than getting hitched to a relatively harmless gay scion of one of the wealthiest families in Westeros.

That being said, as my friend pointed out, she would be a far greater risk for Loras as she just cant keep her mouth shut.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 22, 2013, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 22, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
Btw, Sansa keeps getting tricked...this girl will never learn.
I think she'll start to learn in the near future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 22, 2013, 07:17:39 PM
Valryian sounded cool. Suitably semi-latin but different.
I had forgotten that the slavers spoke quasi-valryian.

Quote from: Martinus on April 22, 2013, 08:51:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 22, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
Did things go that way at Craster's in the books? I can't recall that.....what happened to the other women?

Raped?
And then what? What of the other Nights Watch men?


Really can't remember what happened in the book...this doesn't ring a bell at all. Weren't the others involved somehow. hmm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 22, 2013, 07:25:39 PM
Great episode.

Really it's amazing how they managed to distill such a punch from a 5 minutes scene.  In the books her sections dragged on but here they've synthesized it so well as to make it better than the text.  Daenerys truly is worthy to rule over Westeros. :wub:



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
That said, the best scene of the night was Tywin and Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 22, 2013, 11:32:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
That said, the best scene of the night was Tywin and Cersei.

+1

All the best scenes are either

1. Really powerful moments, or
2. Some of the really exceptional dialogue.

Tywin slapping Cersei down was just excellent. I would really like to see him take on Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
That said, the best scene of the night was Tywin and Cersei.

Olenna and Varys for me. Can't wait for that Olenna / Tywin scene that is coming in one of the next episodes. Finally, each will meet their match.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 23, 2013, 12:13:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 22, 2013, 11:32:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 22, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
That said, the best scene of the night was Tywin and Cersei.

+1

All the best scenes are either

1. Really powerful moments, or
2. Some of the really exceptional dialogue.

Tywin slapping Cersei down was just excellent. I would really like to see him take on Joffrey.

Yeah, to me, GRRM is a great writer of characters and a great storyteller, so it's great that the area where he is lacking - dialogue - has been picked by D&D. This makes the characters GRRM wrote say things they never did in the books possibly the best part of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 23, 2013, 04:24:18 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 22, 2013, 03:35:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 22, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
Btw, Sansa keeps getting tricked...this girl will never learn.

Oh for Godsake she is still a kid.  I mean she literally has nobody she can rely on and this is a nest of vipers where even Tyrion gets tricked.

Yeah, but it still pains me to see her being so naive. I think the actress really managed to show Sansa's desperation for someone to sincerely care for her, and how she is initially reluctant to open up to Margaery but then seems to crack up at her offer to marry her to Loras (even after he blatantly ignored who she was when she told her the anecdote from the Hand's Tournament in the last episode) and offer a cushy life in Highgarden, more akin to her dreams of knightly tales and court living. Everything has been going so badly for her that a small ray of hope is all she's looking for. It's heartbreaking.

IIRC in the books when the Tyrells (Margaery and the Queen of Thorns, I think) offer to marry her to one of their boys she jumps of joy thinking about getting married to Loras and both Tyrell women sigh, roll their eyes and say something like "No, you dumb kid, you, not Loras, but Willas" and she just says something like "Oh, ok, I'm cool with that too". The fact that they offer her to marry Loras straight away in the series makes me think that both Willas and Garlan will be cut from the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 23, 2013, 05:58:07 AM
Great episode, and quite the finale. Season 3 is proving stronger and stronger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on April 23, 2013, 06:46:25 AM
Lady Olenna is wonderful.  I enjoyed the scenes with her this week as much as with anyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 23, 2013, 07:08:06 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 23, 2013, 06:46:25 AM
Lady Olenna is wonderful.  I enjoyed the scenes with her this week as much as with anyone.

What happens when the non-existant bumps the decrepit? A discussion for philosophers!

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 23, 2013, 07:39:55 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 23, 2013, 04:24:18 AM

IIRC in the books when the Tyrells (Margaery and the Queen of Thorns, I think) offer to marry her to one of their boys she jumps of joy thinking about getting married to Loras and both Tyrell women sigh, roll their eyes and say something like "No, you dumb kid, you, not Loras, but Willas" and she just says something like "Oh, ok, I'm cool with that too". The fact that they offer her to marry Loras straight away in the series makes me think that both Willas and Garlan will be cut from the show.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. In the book they just said Tyrells, or my brother or something, and she assumed it would be Loras and was quite disappointed to find out it wasn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 23, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
WEll, in the show they don't seem to be following with the entire "Kingsguard cannot marry" thing. Tywin refers to Jaime as his heir, for example.

Of course...actually, in the show, is Loras a Kingsguard?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 23, 2013, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 23, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
WEll, in the show they don't seem to be following with the entire "Kingsguard cannot marry" thing. Tywin refers to Jaime as his heir, for example.

Of course...actually, in the show, is Loras a Kingsguard?

Tyrion mentioned a couple of episodes ago that Jaime can't inherit.

And now that you mention, Loras is not a Kingsguard on TV IIRC
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2013, 08:37:46 AM
Precedent was set with Barristan's forced retirement, Tywin's probably hoping to get around that technicality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 23, 2013, 08:46:06 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2013, 08:37:46 AM
Precedent was set with Barristan's forced retirement, Tywin's probably hoping to get around that technicality.

well yeah his character doesn't strike as somebody being stopped by tradition and law.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 23, 2013, 09:51:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2013, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 23, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
WEll, in the show they don't seem to be following with the entire "Kingsguard cannot marry" thing. Tywin refers to Jaime as his heir, for example.

Of course...actually, in the show, is Loras a Kingsguard?

Tyrion mentioned a couple of episodes ago that Jaime can't inherit.

And now that you mention, Loras is not a Kingsguard on TV IIRC

Loras is named a Kingsguard at some point during the 3rd book, so they're still on time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2013, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Grallon on April 22, 2013, 07:25:39 PM
Daenerys truly is worthy to rule over Westeros. :wub:
Great.  Two guay guys rooting for Daenarys.  I'll have to rethink my allegiance now.  <_<

:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 23, 2013, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 23, 2013, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Grallon on April 22, 2013, 07:25:39 PM
Daenerys truly is worthy to rule over Westeros. :wub:
Great.  Two guay guys rooting for Daenarys.  I'll have to rethink my allegiance now.  <_<

:P

Well I'm there too, so...:whistle:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 23, 2013, 10:23:45 AM
Maybe she reminds them of Eva Peron?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 23, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 23, 2013, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Grallon on April 22, 2013, 07:25:39 PM
Daenerys truly is worthy to rule over Westeros. :wub:
Great.  Two guay guys rooting for Daenarys.  I'll have to rethink my allegiance now.  <_<

:P

You're on the side of EVIL, right down to your cold black heart.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 23, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
If I hadnt read the last two books I would be a lot more excited about this.  As it is I havent watched this season.  I may get around to it when it is re-run on Showtime or something like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 23, 2013, 01:25:58 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 23, 2013, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Grallon on April 22, 2013, 07:25:39 PM
Daenerys truly is worthy to rule over Westeros. :wub:
Great.  Two guay guys rooting for Daenarys.  I'll have to rethink my allegiance now.  <_<

:P

Don't worry. She'll get back to her usual business of sitting around being indecisive soon enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 23, 2013, 01:34:41 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
If I hadnt read the last two books I would be a lot more excited about this.  As it is I havent watched this season.  I may get around to it when it is re-run on Showtime or something like that.

I'm in the same place. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 23, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
You're on the side of EVIL, right down to your cold black heart.  :(
I always wanted to be EVIL, but not like that :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 23, 2013, 07:52:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 23, 2013, 04:31:48 PM

I always wanted to be EVIL, but not like that :(


Like what?  Nobody is forcing you to have homoerotic fantasies Viper - only you can do that.  Or do you mean having a more... refined sensibility?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2013, 08:40:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 23, 2013, 09:51:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2013, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 23, 2013, 08:06:07 AM
WEll, in the show they don't seem to be following with the entire "Kingsguard cannot marry" thing. Tywin refers to Jaime as his heir, for example.

Of course...actually, in the show, is Loras a Kingsguard?

Tyrion mentioned a couple of episodes ago that Jaime can't inherit.

And now that you mention, Loras is not a Kingsguard on TV IIRC

Loras is named a Kingsguard at some point during the 3rd book, so they're still on time.
IIRC it has something to do with Margery's marriage. Pretty sure it was after the battle when the deal was made that Smarmy-king granted her request for Loras in the kings guard to replace the guy who tried to kill Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 05:06:15 AM
In my opinon the best rendition of The Rians of Castamere

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0xu7P-zzsk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 24, 2013, 05:39:11 AM
It just occurred to me that Daenerys is, literally, a cunning linguist.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 05:41:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2013, 05:39:11 AM
It just occurred to me that Daenerys is, literally, a cunning linguist.  :hmm:
:lol:

IN both senses of the word IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 24, 2013, 07:27:29 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 05:06:15 AM
The Rians of Castamere

That's great.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 24, 2013, 07:32:12 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 05:06:15 AM
In my opinon the best rendition of The Rians of Castamere

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0xu7P-zzsk

The other renditions must be really shite then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 07:50:13 AM
Not really a big fan of the one they used in the series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCCPoVFK4c
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 24, 2013, 07:59:37 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 07:50:13 AM
Not really a big fan of the one they used in the series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCCPoVFK4c

what's wrong with you? Its great, fitted the episode and happenings perfectly

vastly better than the gay whining you posted as best, FYI  :blurgh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 24, 2013, 08:03:14 AM
Aslan is Turkish for lion? Never knew that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:04:45 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2013, 08:03:14 AM
Aslan is Turkish for lion? Never knew that.

Narnia fail.
Manzakiert fail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 24, 2013, 08:08:45 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:04:45 AM
Narnia fail.

I'm fairly certain that factoid is never mentioned in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:15:49 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2013, 08:08:45 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:04:45 AM
Narnia fail.

I'm fairly certain that factoid is never mentioned in the books.

I suppose you also don't know that Narnia is a village in Latium and the birthplace of Nerva?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 24, 2013, 08:16:39 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2013, 08:08:45 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:04:45 AM
Narnia fail.

I'm fairly certain that factoid is never mentioned in the books.

Nor does it really make a difference if you know Alp Arslan's name means nor that it would be the same as Aslan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:17:18 AM
Yes, we get it, you read Wikipedia.



:P


*edit* Viking, not garbon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:17:18 AM
Yes, we get it, you read Wikipedia.



:P

alas, all this I knew long before there was an internet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 24, 2013, 08:20:15 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:17:18 AM
Yes, we get it, you read Wikipedia.



:P

alas, all this I knew long before there was an internet.

So yay you know trivia!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:17:18 AM
Yes, we get it, you read Wikipedia.



:P

alas, all this I knew long before there was an internet.
elementary school book report?  I can't even recall what my grade seven book report was, actual. Probably found a synopsis somewhere :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:35:45 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:17:18 AM
Yes, we get it, you read Wikipedia.



:P

alas, all this I knew long before there was an internet.
elementary school book report?  I can't even recall what my grade seven book report was, actual. Probably found a synopsis somewhere :D

More than that. I love the books while somehow managing to miss the whole religious symbolism bit when I was a kid. I found narnia on the map myself (just like lewis did). I don't remember learning that Aslan was Turkish for lion, I just always knew. Maybe my parents told me. Maybe I looked up aslan in an encyclopedia. On a different note, I also "knew" that Turkish Delights weren't Turkish, which is true in the sense that the ones I got as a kid weren't turkish, but also untrue since the ones peter is talking about were (or at least near identical copies).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 24, 2013, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Grallon on April 23, 2013, 07:52:40 PM
Like what?
Sorta like that: ;)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impawards.com%2F1990%2Fposters%2Fgodfather_part_iii_ver2.jpg&hash=29da7bbf5ab0437116782e1cfcd3f4c986a97efc)

Quote
Nobody is forcing you to have homoerotic fantasies Viper - only you can do that.  Or do you mean having a more... refined sensibility?
G.
<sigh>  I was joking G.  I'm not afraid of turning gay because I happen to like a very pretty and intelligent woman character on a tv show...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 24, 2013, 03:43:27 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 24, 2013, 02:30:37 PM
<sigh>  I was joking G.  I'm not afraid of turning gay because I happen to like a very pretty and intelligent woman character on a tv show...

Way to ruin Grallon's day :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 24, 2013, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:35:45 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2013, 08:17:18 AM
Yes, we get it, you read Wikipedia.



:P

alas, all this I knew long before there was an internet.
elementary school book report?  I can't even recall what my grade seven book report was, actual. Probably found a synopsis somewhere :D

More than that. I love the books while somehow managing to miss the whole religious symbolism bit when I was a kid. I found narnia on the map myself (just like lewis did). I don't remember learning that Aslan was Turkish for lion, I just always knew. Maybe my parents told me. Maybe I looked up aslan in an encyclopedia. On a different note, I also "knew" that Turkish Delights weren't Turkish, which is true in the sense that the ones I got as a kid weren't turkish, but also untrue since the ones peter is talking about were (or at least near identical copies).

Same here.  I read the books numerous times.  Th religious allegory made a gigantic *whoosh* sound over my head each time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 24, 2013, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 24, 2013, 04:15:32 PM

Same here.  I read the books numerous times.  Th religious allegory made a gigantic *whoosh* sound over my head each time.


When I heard Walden Media were making it BECAUSE Aslan was an allegory on Jesus, my reaction was surprise that they didn't realize that this was a literary trope.

Plus I never say Aslans "sacrifice" as a sacrifice, but rather as magical power granted by altruism. When the link was brought up my reaction was to conclude that Jesus' sacrifice was pretty much a non-sacrifice, just like Aslan. If anything telling the story without the religious context allowed me to see it without societal pressure or theological interpretations for the pathetic sham that the jesus story is.

Let the theo-flame-war commence, I won't be participating.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 24, 2013, 04:43:12 PM
Jesus was Jewish for more than 30 years. And you doubt his sacrifice?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 24, 2013, 05:05:54 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 24, 2013, 04:37:41 PM
Let the theo-flame-war commence, I won't be participating.
If you're not participating, then there won't be a flame war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2013, 08:51:36 PM
Has anyone read the combined, chronologically ordered pdf of Feast and Dance? I heard it was much better than the individual books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on April 28, 2013, 07:03:09 AM
Damning screencaps of the upcoming episode suggest an unprecedented escalation of the slander Stannis has had to endure from HBO.

As an excellent work of fiction, it has had a mark upon me; things have come full circle to the point that in defense of Stannis, I have become as bitter and thin-skinned as the determined monarch himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
Die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 28, 2013, 09:14:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
Die.
You're just mad because he gave Renly his well-deserved death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 28, 2013, 09:55:22 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 28, 2013, 09:14:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
Die.
You're just mad because he gave Renly his well-deserved death.

What makes him really mad is that what killed Renly was Breeders Breeding. To kill Renly Stannis fucked a woman. I can't think of a more anti-ghey way to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:18:05 PM
I liked this episode.  :lol:

Lannister family meetings are always fun. By the way, is it me or do Baratheons make for really shitty parents?

Also, the only non-disgusting nudity this episode = gheys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:20:24 PM
In the books do the gigantic butch chick and Jaime ever make the two backed beast?  Show certainly seems to be leaning that way.

Someone tell me the deal on the people torturing the Greyjoy kid?  I missed the first two episodes this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:21:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:20:24 PM
In the books do the gigantic butch chick and Jaime ever make the two backed beast?  Show certainly seems to be leaning that way.
Don't think so.

QuoteSomeone tell me the deal on the people torturing the Greyjoy kid?  I missed the first two episodes this season.

Boltons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on April 29, 2013, 02:23:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:18:05 PM


Also, the only non-disgusting nudity this episode = gheys.

:rolleyes: That was rather repulsive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:30:53 PM
Incidentally, it seems like Loras being gay is probably the worst kept secret of King's Landing. Whenever his name comes up, everyone (with the possible exception of Joffrey and Sansa) makes a gay joke.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 29, 2013, 02:42:43 PM
Well he is the Knight of Flowers. Sounds pretty ghey to me.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 29, 2013, 04:09:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:18:05 PM
I liked this episode.  :lol:

Lannister family meetings are always fun. By the way, is it me or do Baratheons make for really shitty parents?

Also, the only non-disgusting nudity this episode = gheys.

Ygritt was to skinny and I think they didn't show Brienne's breasts simply because they are probably quite nice and would distract from the flat chested description from the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 29, 2013, 05:01:15 PM
Brienne looked alright in the head shots we saw when they cast her. Course, those don't really show scale so well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2013, 05:14:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:30:53 PM
Incidentally, it seems like Loras being gay is probably the worst kept secret of King's Landing. Whenever his name comes up, everyone (with the possible exception of Joffrey and Sansa) makes a gay joke.  :D

And he also seems to have a really terrible gaydar. I mean, his new squire was booming with ghey rays and he still seemed surprised about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2013, 05:17:33 PM
Also, Shireen Baratheon seemed to be a really sweet girl. What a sad character she is..

And Lady Selyse is even creepier than in the books. Having your unborn kids in jars in your bedroom is Dr. Moureau-ish. No wonder Stannis beds Melissandre, who only gives birth to shadow assassins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 29, 2013, 05:20:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:18:05 PM
I liked this episode.  :lol:

Lannister family meetings are always fun. By the way, is it me or do Baratheons make for really shitty parents?

Also, the only non-disgusting nudity this episode = gheys.
Ygritte's ass was fantastic.  I think she's one of the prettier women in a cast full of pretty women.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2013, 05:22:53 PM
Missandei...  :wub:

Aging her up from the 11 year old girl from the books to caramel skinned beauty: Best casting choice EVAH.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 29, 2013, 09:37:54 PM
I'm half in love withvMelisandre. Carice van Houten is a goddess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 29, 2013, 05:20:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:18:05 PM
I liked this episode.  :lol:

Lannister family meetings are always fun. By the way, is it me or do Baratheons make for really shitty parents?

Also, the only non-disgusting nudity this episode = gheys.
Ygritte's ass was fantastic.  I think she's one of the prettier women in a cast full of pretty women.

First of all, she is not. Second of all, I was referring more to the fact that Jon must have had a really great time eating her out after she spent several weeks in her skins with no bath.  :yuk:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 11:28:38 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 29, 2013, 09:37:54 PM
I'm half in love withvMelisandre. Carice van Houten is a goddess.

Of course you would be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 29, 2013, 11:33:45 PM
Considering Wag's bumped thread had you game for watersports, you've little room to talk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 29, 2013, 11:40:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 29, 2013, 05:20:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 02:18:05 PM
I liked this episode.  :lol:

Lannister family meetings are always fun. By the way, is it me or do Baratheons make for really shitty parents?

Also, the only non-disgusting nudity this episode = gheys.
Ygritte's ass was fantastic.  I think she's one of the prettier women in a cast full of pretty women.

First of all, she is not. Second of all, I was referring more to the fact that Jon must have had a really great time eating her out after she spent several weeks in her skins with no bath.  :yuk:

First of all you don't know shit about female hottness.
Second of all there was a warm pool there for them to bathe in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
Only that they had sex as soon as they undressed - and this was followed by her question when was the last time he (and presumably she) had a bath.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 11:52:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2013, 11:33:45 PM
Considering Wag's bumped thread had you game for watersports, you've little room to talk.
:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 30, 2013, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
Only that they had sex as soon as they undressed - and this was followed by her question when was the last time he (and presumably she) had a bath.
She knew the hot springs. That's a pretty shitty assumption.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 30, 2013, 03:45:04 AM
Fetusses in jars. Holy crazy lady batman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 30, 2013, 04:55:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 30, 2013, 03:45:04 AM
Fetusses in jars. Holy crazy lady batman.

My reaction was more of a reflection that now we don't have to show Queens Men being batshit and hearing about how Davos thinks the Queens Men are batshit. Fetuses - Jars - Batshit, that's settled, now let us follow the adventures of Davos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2013, 05:19:39 AM
I think I liked every single scene this episode, with the possible exception of Jon/Yigritte romp.

Tywin = World's Greatest Dad.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 30, 2013, 05:26:57 AM
For the record, I also thought about Ygritte's BO when Jon went down on her. Her question about bathing afterwards just rubbed salt in the wound.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 30, 2013, 05:41:46 AM
I think they gonna have to kil Robb's wife at the Red Wedding.
And Selmy didn't sit at the small counci?
How is he going to rat out Mormon to Daenerys?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 30, 2013, 05:44:29 AM
In the book, I thought Tyrion's reluctance to bed Sansa was out of character.
It is much more so in the TV show.

In the end, don't forget that Tyrion is what people in Westeros say he is. He fucks whores and drink himself to sleep every night.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2013, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 30, 2013, 05:44:29 AM
In the book, I thought Tyrion's reluctance to bed Sansa was out of character.
It is much more so in the TV show.

I disagree, he's a much nicer person in the TV show than he is in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 30, 2013, 05:53:56 AM
He drinks and fucks because he's depressed, not because he's a lout. He's been protective of Sansa in the past and doesn't want to violate her. She's also about the same age that Tysha was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2013, 06:23:11 AM
Siegy doesn't understand Western culture - film at 11.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 30, 2013, 06:34:15 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 30, 2013, 05:44:29 AM
In the book, I thought Tyrion's reluctance to bed Sansa was out of character.
It is much more so in the TV show.

It is not out of character. He fucks whores because he can pay them to make him believe that they really like him. His most formative moment is when he found out that a girl who he thought he liked him for who he was was a paid whore. His internal monologue about his relationship with Shae is about him hoping she likes him for who he is and worrying that she doesn't. Sansa clearly does not want him. Sansa is clearly disgusted by him. Sansa makes it clear without a doubt that everybody sees him as a deformed monster. He can't pretend he is normal and handsome with her. That is why he doesn't want to bed her. He doesn't spare her for her sake, he spares her for his own sake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 06:45:46 AM
I think Tyrion is basically a pretty empathetic person. He is treated like shit pretty rgularly by others, and he doesn't like it, so he makes a pretty concerted effort to not treat others like shit, especially those who are vulnerable, like himself.

Sansa Stark is a victim in his eyes. He is not the type to force himself on anyone, he never has in the books or the show. It would be grossly out of character for him to rape Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 30, 2013, 06:53:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2013, 05:53:21 AM
I disagree, he's a much nicer person in the TV show than he is in the books.

I disagree with you both. Tyrion's treatment of Sansa was completely in character, which is essentially the same in tv and books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 07:19:21 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 30, 2013, 06:53:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 30, 2013, 05:53:21 AM
I disagree, he's a much nicer person in the TV show than he is in the books.

I disagree with you both. Tyrion's treatment of Sansa was completely in character, which is essentially the same in tv and books.

Indeed. It is kind of obvious really - Martin's only really human characters, those who are clearly "good" are all flawed in some rather obvious manner.

Jon Snow is a bastard
Tyrion is a dwarf
Daenyrs is just a mess in general
Bran is a cripple

The over-riding theme in GoT is the corrupting influence of power. Tyrion has been corrupted not by his own power, but by the power others have over him - primarily his father. How he responds to power himself, when he almost reluctantly (at first) comes to it, then begins to embrace it, and finally loses it all again is what makes his basically decent humanity interesting in contrast to those who simply take power for granted.

I think the most interesting contrast is not even between Cersei and Tyrion (after all, Cersei is almost a completely predictable character), but between Tyrion and Baelish. Baelish is the arch-type for Martin's "true" power figure. His power is completely based on his own accomplishment - he had no real help from his name of family. And how HE handles that power compared to Tyrion is telling. He would not rape Sansa either - but not because he cares about her per se, but because he realizes that physical domination is a trivial kind of power, and the power he needs is more complete than that that can be provided simply by physical control.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 30, 2013, 07:31:01 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 30, 2013, 05:44:29 AM
In the book, I thought Tyrion's reluctance to bed Sansa was out of character.
It is much more so in the TV show.

In the end, don't forget that Tyrion is what people in Westeros say he is. He fucks whores and drink himself to sleep every night.

I don't know. He always had a soft spot for Sansa, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 30, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
I wonder if the hot stud who swept my lovely Loras off his feet was an actual whore in one of Bailish' brothels or a simple man servant?  A really fine piece of ass though.  :licklips:

So was, suprisingly, Brienne's.  As far as attraction between her and Jamie - I think it's more a case of a growing 'brothers-at-arms' sentiment than any actual sexual/emotional attraction.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 10:35:38 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:20:24 PM
In the books do the gigantic butch chick and Jaime ever make the two backed beast?
it's about as it is in the series.  They begin to respect themselves, they come closer, but nothing more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2013, 05:05:16 PM
Hot gay sex aside, I'm kinda disappointed with the character assassination of Loras.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 30, 2013, 05:42:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2013, 05:05:16 PM
Hot gay sex aside, I'm kinda disappointed with the character assassination of Loras.
:lol: Up until last episode, it'd been a non-stop shitting on Stannis.  I'd love to feel pity for your crush, but it isn't happening.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 30, 2013, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2013, 05:05:16 PM
Hot gay sex aside, I'm kinda disappointed with the character assassination of Loras.
It's not like the books are any better.  Loras is consistently played as a shallow idiot playing at knighthood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:06:05 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 30, 2013, 05:44:29 AM
In the end, don't forget that Tyrion is what people in Westeros say he is. He fucks whores and drink himself to sleep every night.
What's wrong with that?

Anyway.  Tyrion is highly intelligent, probably nearly as much as his father, but without the cruelty.  There's still a bit of naiveté to him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 30, 2013, 08:07:27 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 30, 2013, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2013, 05:05:16 PM
Hot gay sex aside, I'm kinda disappointed with the character assassination of Loras.
It's not like the books are any better.  Loras is consistently played as a shallow idiot playing at knighthood.

Yeah, as much Marty loves Loras and Renly they are both depicted as stereotypically vain and frivolous gays.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 06:45:46 AM
I think Tyrion is basically a pretty empathetic person. He is treated like shit pretty rgularly by others, and he doesn't like it, so he makes a pretty concerted effort to not treat others like shit, especially those who are vulnerable, like himself.

Sansa Stark is a victim in his eyes. He is not the type to force himself on anyone, he never has in the books or the show. It would be grossly out of character for him to rape Sansa.
actually, I think we're told he raped his first wife after Jaime told her she was a whore hired for the whole setup of rescuing her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 30, 2013, 08:16:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 06:45:46 AM
I think Tyrion is basically a pretty empathetic person. He is treated like shit pretty rgularly by others, and he doesn't like it, so he makes a pretty concerted effort to not treat others like shit, especially those who are vulnerable, like himself.

Sansa Stark is a victim in his eyes. He is not the type to force himself on anyone, he never has in the books or the show. It would be grossly out of character for him to rape Sansa.
actually, I think we're told he raped his first wife after Jaime told her she was a whore hired for the whole setup of rescuing her.

Pretty sure that's inccorect. Tyrion loved her and it was Tywin that had Jaime tell Tyrion that and Tywin who instituted the raping with Tyrion forced to participate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 30, 2013, 08:42:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 06:45:46 AM
I think Tyrion is basically a pretty empathetic person. He is treated like shit pretty rgularly by others, and he doesn't like it, so he makes a pretty concerted effort to not treat others like shit, especially those who are vulnerable, like himself.

Sansa Stark is a victim in his eyes. He is not the type to force himself on anyone, he never has in the books or the show. It would be grossly out of character for him to rape Sansa.
actually, I think we're told he raped his first wife after Jaime told her she was a whore hired for the whole setup of rescuing her.
Nope.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 01, 2013, 12:29:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 10:35:38 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2013, 02:20:24 PM
In the books do the gigantic butch chick and Jaime ever make the two backed beast?
it's about as it is in the series.  They begin to respect themselves, they come closer, but nothing more.

Pretty sure she begins to fancy him in 'that' sort of way however.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on May 01, 2013, 01:52:34 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 30, 2013, 08:42:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
actually, I think we're told he raped his first wife after Jaime told her she was a whore hired for the whole setup of rescuing her.
Nope.

That's right- he pays her a whole Gold Dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 02, 2013, 06:47:52 PM
Sansa will have midget sex soon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 03, 2013, 07:35:31 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F05%2FRatings-midway-S3.jpg&hash=71adce203bca59781180aae6f197a6c0a9e06b5c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 03, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
It's true Boardwalk season 3 was boring as fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Just goes to show, tapping into the stupid woman market is what's best for a show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Just goes to show, tapping into the stupid woman market is what's best for a show.

Well tapping into stupid markets is always smart and supposedly women watch shows far more than men in general.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 03, 2013, 08:28:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2013, 08:16:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 06:45:46 AM
I think Tyrion is basically a pretty empathetic person. He is treated like shit pretty rgularly by others, and he doesn't like it, so he makes a pretty concerted effort to not treat others like shit, especially those who are vulnerable, like himself.

Sansa Stark is a victim in his eyes. He is not the type to force himself on anyone, he never has in the books or the show. It would be grossly out of character for him to rape Sansa.
actually, I think we're told he raped his first wife after Jaime told her she was a whore hired for the whole setup of rescuing her.

Pretty sure that's inccorect. Tyrion loved her and it was Tywin that had Jaime tell Tyrion that and Tywin who instituted the raping with Tyrion forced to participate.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyrion_Lannister#History
"ywin had his entire guard rape Tysha for a silver each and then made Tyrion go last for a gold coin, because a Lannister is worth more. [7]"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 03, 2013, 08:35:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 03, 2013, 08:28:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2013, 08:16:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 30, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2013, 06:45:46 AM
I think Tyrion is basically a pretty empathetic person. He is treated like shit pretty rgularly by others, and he doesn't like it, so he makes a pretty concerted effort to not treat others like shit, especially those who are vulnerable, like himself.

Sansa Stark is a victim in his eyes. He is not the type to force himself on anyone, he never has in the books or the show. It would be grossly out of character for him to rape Sansa.
actually, I think we're told he raped his first wife after Jaime told her she was a whore hired for the whole setup of rescuing her.

Pretty sure that's inccorect. Tyrion loved her and it was Tywin that had Jaime tell Tyrion that and Tywin who instituted the raping with Tyrion forced to participate.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyrion_Lannister#History
"ywin had his entire guard rape Tysha for a silver each and then made Tyrion go last for a gold coin, because a Lannister is worth more. [7]"

Which is oddly enough just what I said. You made it sound as though Tyrion raped her because Jamie had told him she was a whore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 03, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Just goes to show, tapping into the stupid woman market is what's best for a show.
:huh: How is it tapping into that market?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 03, 2013, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 03, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Just goes to show, tapping into the stupid woman market is what's best for a show.
:huh: How is it tapping into that market?

True Blood?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 03, 2013, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 03, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Just goes to show, tapping into the stupid woman market is what's best for a show.
:huh: How is it tapping into that market?

True Blood?
Oh, okay. Thought he was referring to GoT somehow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2013, 10:20:15 PM
Considering that book series and show is immensely popular on Languish which has a grand total of 2 women who are regular posters...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2013, 10:21:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2013, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 03, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Just goes to show, tapping into the stupid woman market is what's best for a show.
:huh: How is it tapping into that market?

True Blood?

I assumed he was equating Game of Thrones with True Blood. They have the same shaped lines going on in that graph.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 04, 2013, 02:28:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 03, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
It's true Boardwalk season 3 was boring as fuck.

I disagree. Season 3 was good. Season 2 was Teh Boredom
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2013, 02:45:05 AM
True Blood is not Twilight. It's hardly a stupid women show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 04, 2013, 09:49:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2013, 02:45:05 AM
True Blood is not Twilight. It's hardly a stupid women show.
No, it's just a stupid show. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 04, 2013, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 04, 2013, 02:28:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 03, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
It's true Boardwalk season 3 was boring as fuck.

I disagree. Season 3 was good. Season 2 was Teh Boredom
:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 04, 2013, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2013, 02:45:05 AM
True Blood is not Twilight. It's hardly a stupid women show.

It's a pretty stupid show though. It became my new crack after I gave up Grey's Anatomy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 04, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
I stopped with True Blood mostly because it got stupid. I liked the first season, and the whole concept of vampires "coming out" as it were. But by season two, they started adding more "monsters" so that within a few seasons it seemed regular, normal people were the minority in that town. So you wondered why there was such a hostility towards vampires anyways. "Oh, it's OK to be a werewolf or a fairy, and I'm  a shape shifter, but god forbid you're a vampire." I don't know, just lost all credibility, in as much as a show about vampires can have.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 04, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
Agreed it fell apart and when Allen Ball left it at the end of the most recent season - he basically broke it completely apart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 04, 2013, 12:13:49 PM
I also eventually abandoned True Blood. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 04, 2013, 01:46:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
Agreed it fell apart and when Allen Ball left it at the end of the most recent season - he basically broke it completely apart.
Actually I disagree.  The last season was the best in multiple years.  Ball isn't the best showrunner in the world. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 04, 2013, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 04, 2013, 01:46:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
Agreed it fell apart and when Allen Ball left it at the end of the most recent season - he basically broke it completely apart.
Actually I disagree.  The last season was the best in multiple years.  Ball isn't the best showrunner in the world. 

I guess "best" if you consider it good when most of the characters turn about face on their past actions and consider Lilith to be an interesting plot device.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
I want Lady Olenna and Lord Tywin to have their own spin-off show.  :lol:

I'd pay to watch them talk in the same room for hours.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 06, 2013, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2013, 02:45:05 AM
True Blood is not Twilight. It's hardly a stupid women show.
It's Twilight for adults rather than tweens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?

Littlefinger sailing off to the Vale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 06, 2013, 01:24:47 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 04, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
I stopped with True Blood mostly because it got stupid. I liked the first season, and the whole concept of vampires "coming out" as it were. But by season two, they started adding more "monsters" so that within a few seasons it seemed regular, normal people were the minority in that town. So you wondered why there was such a hostility towards vampires anyways. "Oh, it's OK to be a werewolf or a fairy, and I'm  a shape shifter, but god forbid you're a vampire." I don't know, just lost all credibility, in as much as a show about vampires can have.
My wife has read the books, and it seems like pretty much everything in the Monster Manual shows up at one point or another.  I tease her about her 'D&D books'.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?

Littlefinger sailing off to the Vale.

Ummmm....isn't Sansa supposed to be with him when that happens?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 06, 2013, 01:27:17 PM
That's why she's sad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 06, 2013, 01:30:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?
It was the escape opportunity that Littlefinger had offered her earlier, since she figured that she'd marry Loras and everything would be alright.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 06, 2013, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?
Littlefinger sailing off to the Vale.
Ummmm....isn't Sansa supposed to be with him when that happens?
Later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2013, 01:35:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?

Littlefinger sailing off to the Vale.

Ummmm....isn't Sansa supposed to be with him when that happens?

There is a major plot twist to come before that happens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:42:56 PM
Oh yeah, I am getting my timeline fucked up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 06, 2013, 01:53:57 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2013, 01:35:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 06, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
What was the deal with Sansa watching the ship sail away? I know she was sad because marrying the dwarf doesn't seem like such a great deal compared to Loras, but what was the ship supposed to be?

Littlefinger sailing off to the Vale.

Ummmm....isn't Sansa supposed to be with him when that happens?

There is a major plot twist to come before that happens.

Is that Bobby in the shower?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 02:04:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2013, 01:24:47 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 04, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
I stopped with True Blood mostly because it got stupid. I liked the first season, and the whole concept of vampires "coming out" as it were. But by season two, they started adding more "monsters" so that within a few seasons it seemed regular, normal people were the minority in that town. So you wondered why there was such a hostility towards vampires anyways. "Oh, it's OK to be a werewolf or a fairy, and I'm  a shape shifter, but god forbid you're a vampire." I don't know, just lost all credibility, in as much as a show about vampires can have.
My wife has read the books, and it seems like pretty much everything in the Monster Manual shows up at one point or another.  I tease her about her 'D&D books'.

I would say it's more WoD.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
Also, isn't it funny that in the episode so filled with torture and murder, probably the most disturbing image was Brienne in that pink dress?  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 06, 2013, 03:24:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 02:04:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 06, 2013, 01:24:47 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 04, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
I stopped with True Blood mostly because it got stupid. I liked the first season, and the whole concept of vampires "coming out" as it were. But by season two, they started adding more "monsters" so that within a few seasons it seemed regular, normal people were the minority in that town. So you wondered why there was such a hostility towards vampires anyways. "Oh, it's OK to be a werewolf or a fairy, and I'm  a shape shifter, but god forbid you're a vampire." I don't know, just lost all credibility, in as much as a show about vampires can have.
My wife has read the books, and it seems like pretty much everything in the Monster Manual shows up at one point or another.  I tease her about her 'D&D books'.
I would say it's more WoD.
Not only would she not know what that was, but since WoD is using the same monsters as D&D, it's not especially important.

Well, she might know that it exists since I mentioned it when we saw 'Underworld', but I don't think the comparison would be helpful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 06, 2013, 07:15:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
Also, isn't it funny that in the episode so filled with torture and murder, probably the most disturbing image was Brienne in that pink dress?  :P

:lol:


And yes - Olenna is becoming my favorite character.  This episode - while less overly dramatic - was one of the most fulfilling.  Amazing how so many things can be made to move without much appearing to do so.  But I won't pick up the books until the fat man is done with them.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 07, 2013, 01:12:43 AM
Personally, I like how the show writers sometimes seem to talk to the audience through the not-in-the-books scenes.

Ramsay's "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." was precious.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 01:30:20 AM
I thought my wife was going to throw up during the Ramsey/Theon scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 07, 2013, 01:57:37 AM
Yeah that was pretty gross.

One thing I was thinking about: supposedly, while book 3 will be this season and the next one, then they are going to condense the next two books. Which they are perfectly right to do so, since if you were to follow Book 4 and 5 religiously, they would lose all viewers as they would slowly fall into a coma one by one.
But... Will they not catch up to the books if they do so? Martin needs to hurry the fuck up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 07, 2013, 02:15:07 AM
I think the second half of book 3, book 4 and book 5 will be all used as a material for the next two seasons (i.e. season 4 and 5) - books 4 and 5 are happening simultaneously anyway, so there is no way they are going to split them the way GRRM split the books.

By that time, hopefully, the fat man will catch up.

That being said, as far as I am concerned, I am much more invested in the show than in the books right now (I can't even bring myself to finish the fifth book, despite trying it in print form and as an audiobook) so D&D can simply take over from there and continue doing the show using Martin's ideas as a fodder for their creativity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 07, 2013, 02:51:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 07, 2013, 01:57:37 AM
Yeah that was pretty gross.

One thing I was thinking about: supposedly, while book 3 will be this season and the next one, then they are going to condense the next two books. Which they are perfectly right to do so, since if you were to follow Book 4 and 5 religiously, they would lose all viewers as they would slowly fall into a coma one by one.
But... Will they not catch up to the books if they do so? Martin needs to hurry the fuck up.
Well page wise, books 4 and 5 would merit three or four seasons at the pace they're setting, however I'm sure they'll just condense it down to two seasons. He might be able to publish one book in that time, but he sure as hell isn't publishing two.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 07, 2013, 04:40:10 AM
Quote from: Grallon on May 06, 2013, 07:15:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
Also, isn't it funny that in the episode so filled with torture and murder, probably the most disturbing image was Brienne in that pink dress?  :P

:lol:


And yes - Olenna is becoming my favorite character.  This episode - while less overly dramatic - was one of the most fulfilling.  Amazing how so many things can be made to move without much appearing to do so.  But I won't pick up the books until the fat man is done with them.



G.

Before thinking the whole thing through I sad last night at our group watching of AGOT that Olenna was the person in AGOT that I'd most like to have for dinner. People mostly nodded in agreement. And then I continued that this remained the case even though bookreaders know what she does with Sansa's hair net.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:47:12 AM
Poor poor Ros...   :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:51:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:47:12 AM
Poor poor Ros...   :(

What with both [spoiler]Tyrion[/spoiler] and Littlefinger leaving kings landing there is no longer a need for a "generic" prostitute in Kings Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:52:47 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:51:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:47:12 AM
Poor poor Ros...   :(

What with both [spoiler]Tyrion[/spoiler] and Littlefinger leaving kings landing there is no longer a need for a "generic" prostitute in Kings Landing.

They could still milk the character out for another season. Then again in the books Chataya and Alayaya stopped being relevant around the same point in the story, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
What about the merging of Gendry Waters and Edric Storm? Will it work? Will Lettow sqee when we get to see an increased focus on Shireen leading to the release of Davos on her initiative and an end of season Davos reading a letter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 06:03:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:52:47 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:51:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:47:12 AM
Poor poor Ros...   :(

What with both [spoiler]Tyrion[/spoiler] and Littlefinger leaving kings landing there is no longer a need for a "generic" prostitute in Kings Landing.

They could still milk the character out for another season. Then again in the books Chataya and Alayaya stopped being relevant around the same point in the story, IIRC.

Now that I remember, at some point in the third book Cersei tells Tyrion something like "I found your whore and dealt with her" when she wanted to get back at him for something, and he freaked out thinking it was Shae but turned out to have been Alayaya. Did that happen like that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 07, 2013, 06:17:58 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 06:03:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:52:47 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:51:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 05:47:12 AM
Poor poor Ros...   :(

What with both [spoiler]Tyrion[/spoiler] and Littlefinger leaving kings landing there is no longer a need for a "generic" prostitute in Kings Landing.

They could still milk the character out for another season. Then again in the books Chataya and Alayaya stopped being relevant around the same point in the story, IIRC.

Now that I remember, at some point in the third book Cersei tells Tyrion something like "I found your whore and dealt with her" when she wanted to get back at him for something, and he freaked out thinking it was Shae but turned out to have been Alayaya. Did that happen like that?

She arrested Alayaya and had her tortured after Tyrion had promised to do to Tommen what Cersei did to Alayaya. The scene starts with cersei declaring he has her whore and Tyrion being afraid for Shae and then Cersei brings in Alayaya and Alayaya plays Tyrion's whore for Cersei.

Once the battle was over and Tyrion was missing Tyrion's minions switched sides to Tywin and Cersei and got Tommen released and Alayaya was released covered in scars.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 07, 2013, 06:34:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
What about the merging of Gendry Waters and Edric Storm? Will it work? Will Lettow sqee when we get to see an increased focus on Shireen leading to the release of Davos on her initiative and an end of season Davos reading a letter.

I think it's a good idea. We are invested in Gendry but introducing a new character called Edric Storm who pretty much serves the same purpose would be redundant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 07, 2013, 06:45:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2013, 06:34:17 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 07, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
What about the merging of Gendry Waters and Edric Storm? Will it work? Will Lettow sqee when we get to see an increased focus on Shireen leading to the release of Davos on her initiative and an end of season Davos reading a letter.

I think it's a good idea. We are invested in Gendry but introducing a new character called Edric Storm who pretty much serves the same purpose would be redundant.

I think this is a bit of signalling. So far Gendry has only really be relevant as being the spitting image of Young Robert/Renly at two points as seen by first Ned and later by Brienne. Edric on the other hand sits on Dragonstone [spoiler]on the edge of being burned by Melisandre for the power of his blood.[/spoiler] At some point his live will be in danger and possibly lost, how does Gendry return from that. Martin's sacrificial characters Ned and [spoiler]Robb______[/spoiler] were made real so we would care when they died. Gendry hasn't done that, I think Gendry is coming back and to be honest I ship Gendry/Arya.

Maybe I'm confused and read too much into the conspiracy theories on the forums. Seriously, Shireen Baratheon = Stone Dragon.. or even edric being burnd with an egg on dragonstone creating the stone dragon for shireen (who has targaryen blood). I just think merging Gendry and Edric adds a whole bunch of spanners into the works.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 07, 2013, 08:31:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 01:30:20 AM
I thought my wife was going to throw up during the Ramsey/Theon scenes.

What he do?

Man, I really need an HD TV, to me it just seemed like blood on his little finger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2013, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: Grallon on May 06, 2013, 07:15:43 PM
.  Amazing how so many things can be made to move without much appearing to do so.  But I won't pick up the books until the fat man is done with them.

You are putting a lot of reliance on the skills of America's cardiac specialists.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 07, 2013, 09:40:21 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2013, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: Grallon on May 06, 2013, 07:15:43 PM
.  Amazing how so many things can be made to move without much appearing to do so.  But I won't pick up the books until the fat man is done with them.

You are putting a lot of reliance on the skills of America's cardiac specialists.
:lmfao:
I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been some kind of fan petition to get GRRM's stomach stapled. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 07, 2013, 10:10:37 AM
Post vanished. Bah.

Just seen last episode.
That scene with the red priests- wow, now I definitely can't remember that from the books. Am I just going crazy in my old age or is this a major and interesting change? That's a scene I was looking forward to popping up in the books some day. Though the question of how Mel got so deep into enemy territory like that is there....
I'm sure in the books Gendry just faded into the background as Arya moved on, a bit of research shows he pops up later in Brienne's story. So they've decided to kill him off instead ey...interesting big change.
Part of me increasingly suspecs these extra POV scenes and changes are to keep book fans interested.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 07, 2013, 10:14:14 AM
How did she get there? It's medieval europe in a war fought by nobles. There is no front.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 07, 2013, 11:07:03 AM
The "Melissandre visits the Riverlands" scene was invented for the show, it's not in the books. I guess that red priests have an inbuilt GPS or something, to be able to find each other easily.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2013, 09:46:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.

Firegoddidit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2013, 10:00:49 PM
I asked before what the deal was with the guys torturing the Greyjoy kid and all I got was Marty posting "Boltons."

Can anyone shed some illumination on the issue for me?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 07, 2013, 10:06:41 PM
The Boltons are known as notorious torturers.  They are suppose to be vassals of House Stark, but they are treacherous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2013, 10:07:57 PM
So they're torturing him because they like to torture?  Could be anyone?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 07, 2013, 10:15:19 PM
Yeah, pretty much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2013, 10:18:22 PM
Kinky.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 07, 2013, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.
Or her ability to survive the maester's poison.  I, for one, am astounded and dismayed that things that could only be explained by magic are being done by a witch in a fantasy setting.  The creators should be ashamed of themselves.  This is even worse than the dragons' wings being improperly oriented to provide the proper lift required for flight, or how frozen bodies can move around as if they were thawed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 08, 2013, 12:04:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2013, 10:00:49 PM
I asked before what the deal was with the guys torturing the Greyjoy kid and all I got was Marty posting "Boltons."

Can anyone shed some illumination on the issue for me?

No, it's not a Bolton. It's a Snow. RWhasnthappendyet
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 08, 2013, 12:05:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2013, 10:07:57 PM
So they're torturing him because they like to torture?  Could be anyone?

Yes, he is not a nice person.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 12:13:47 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2013, 10:07:57 PM
So they're torturing him because they like to torture?  Could be anyone?

The guy who is torturing him is the bastard son of the guy who currently holds Jaimes and Brienne prisoners. While the dad is a treacherous, ruthless asshole, the bastard son is completely unhinged. He murdered his own, legitimate brother and fancies himself the legitimate heir (even if his father pretty much treats him like a rabid dog he is).

His favorite pastimes include raping, hunting (with dogs) and skinning women - not necessarily in that order. He wants to break Theon's psyche and turn him into a Westerosi version of a gimp, just for shit and giggles, because he once had a servant like this who died, and he wants a new model. He is going to castrate Theon, remove few more fingers and stuff like that.

Yes, it's GRRM doing the "ridiculously evil".  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 08, 2013, 12:19:00 AM
And Martinus wants so suck the toes of the guy who his playing him....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 12:19:21 AM
Or to put it differently, Boltons in Game of Thrones serve the role of a "nemesis".

"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me."

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationmaster.com%2Fwikimir%2Fimages%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fa%2Fa8%2FBricktopsnatch.jpg&hash=64b6c156f7c62b6a13428b865053479debbcfc8b)

They are there to hurt the characters we used to hate, so we stop hating them. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 12:24:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.

I disagree. Divination spells allowing one to find a close blood relative of a person you are with is magic 101 in most fantasy settings. It's definitely much less ridiculous than breeding shadow assassins or raising the dead. You are just being grumpy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 07, 2013, 10:42:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.
Or her ability to survive the maester's poison.  I, for one, am astounded and dismayed that things that could only be explained by magic are being done by a witch in a fantasy setting.  The creators should be ashamed of themselves.  This is even worse than the dragons' wings being improperly oriented to provide the proper lift required for flight, or how frozen bodies can move around as if they were thawed.
:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 08, 2013, 12:50:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 12:24:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.

I disagree. Divination spells allowing one to find a close blood relative of a person you are with is magic 101 in most fantasy settings. It's definitely much less ridiculous than breeding shadow assassins or raising the dead. You are just being grumpy.

Am not!

It is too conveniently specific, when there is all kinds of other information that Stannis could have used to much greater effect that he was no privy to that is considerably LESS specific. Like, I don't know, the knowledge that Tywin was about to kick his ass, for example?

I know, I know, the ways of the Lord of Light are mysterious, blahblahblah.

It makes the magic a deus ex machina, nothing more than a tool the writers will use to circumvent what makes sense. We need Gendry with Melisandre? No problem, she can just magic herself to him, and magic herself back to Stannis. Ta-dah!

Martin goes out of his way NOT to use magic in that fashion, and he is a better writer for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 08, 2013, 01:05:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 07, 2013, 10:14:14 AM
How did she get there? It's medieval europe in a war fought by nobles. There is no front.
Its not so much a non-existant front that is the issue, but her passing through a few countries worth of ravaged land filled with enemy armies, bandits, etc.... in a very short length of time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2013, 01:20:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 08, 2013, 01:05:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 07, 2013, 10:14:14 AM
How did she get there? It's medieval europe in a war fought by nobles. There is no front.
Its not so much a non-existant front that is the issue, but her passing through a few countries worth of ravaged land filled with enemy armies, bandits, etc.... in a very short length of time.

Uh...what?  Presumably, the Brotherhood Without Banners is operating in the area around Harrenhall.  All she has to do is land at Maidenpool or thereabouts, then travel overland through the Riverlands.  It's a pretty short distance for a small group to go through and I imagine that "enemy armies" have better things to do than to be on the look out for a red witch that they don't know exists or is even traveling in their area.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 01:57:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 08, 2013, 12:50:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 12:24:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2013, 08:32:24 PM
What is even more silly than her ability to find Thoros is her ability to know that Thoros has Gendry to begin with.

I disagree. Divination spells allowing one to find a close blood relative of a person you are with is magic 101 in most fantasy settings. It's definitely much less ridiculous than breeding shadow assassins or raising the dead. You are just being grumpy.

Am not!

It is too conveniently specific, when there is all kinds of other information that Stannis could have used to much greater effect that he was no privy to that is considerably LESS specific. Like, I don't know, the knowledge that Tywin was about to kick his ass, for example?

I know, I know, the ways of the Lord of Light are mysterious, blahblahblah.

It makes the magic a deus ex machina, nothing more than a tool the writers will use to circumvent what makes sense. We need Gendry with Melisandre? No problem, she can just magic herself to him, and magic herself back to Stannis. Ta-dah!

Martin goes out of his way NOT to use magic in that fashion, and he is a better writer for it.

Well, Melissandre hints at few points that she could have saved Stannis's army but he did not take her with him. Perhaps she withheld some information from him to show him that he cannot succeed without the LOL (by the way I just realized that's the acronym for the Lord of Light). :D

I mean, I kinda get what you mean but as far as magic feats go, locating a nephew of the guy you fucked and used for magic before, and who (the nephew) actually has something that actively fuels your magic does not sound so outlandish, as far as mysterious magic tricks go. It's like a vampire being able to sniff blood at a distance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 08, 2013, 02:02:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 01:57:56 AM
the LOL (by the way I just realized that's the acronym for the Lord of Light). :D

That's not the term Martin typically used is it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 02:03:02 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 08, 2013, 02:02:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 01:57:56 AM
the LOL (by the way I just realized that's the acronym for the Lord of Light). :D

That's not the term Martin typically used is it?

Dunno.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 08, 2013, 02:44:40 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 08, 2013, 01:20:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 08, 2013, 01:05:10 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 07, 2013, 10:14:14 AM
How did she get there? It's medieval europe in a war fought by nobles. There is no front.
Its not so much a non-existant front that is the issue, but her passing through a few countries worth of ravaged land filled with enemy armies, bandits, etc.... in a very short length of time.

Uh...what?  Presumably, the Brotherhood Without Banners is operating in the area around Harrenhall.  All she has to do is land at Maidenpool or thereabouts, then travel overland through the Riverlands.  It's a pretty short distance for a small group to go through and I imagine that "enemy armies" have better things to do than to be on the look out for a red witch that they don't know exists or is even traveling in their area.
Mentally got my geography a bit mixed up. Not as far as I imagined, still a fair distance though, .
Its not just her, she had some of Stannis' men too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 08, 2013, 05:09:41 AM
A small group (and they're one) can travel fast, my gripe with that is the relative ease with which they find each other. Magical GPS, that's where it's at. Anyway, I'm not really worried by that, "a red witch did it".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 05:23:17 AM
Maybe all red priests are BFFs on Facebook and Thoros posted he is "resurrecting with Berric Dondarion, Arya Stark and Gendry the Baratheon Bastard near Harrenhall".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 08, 2013, 05:29:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 05:23:17 AM
Maybe all red priests are BFFs on Facebook and Thoros posted he is "resurrecting with Berric Dondarion, Arya Stark and Gendry the Baratheon Bastard near Harrenhall".

As shown in the "Order of the Stick" webcomic, all clerics are on Macebook. :nerd:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 05:56:52 AM
Someone else has already thought of recapping GoT in Facebook format.

http://www.happyplace.com/23726/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-6

Amusing
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 08, 2013, 06:09:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 08, 2013, 05:09:41 AM
A small group (and they're one) can travel fast, my gripe with that is the relative ease with which they find each other. Magical GPS, that's where it's at. Anyway, I'm not really worried by that, "a red witch did it".
The brotherhood are Rhlor worshippers. Presumably there's a network of sympathizers she can ask.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 06:14:44 AM
I think the previous episode's one is funnier:

http://www.happyplace.com/23526/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-5
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 08, 2013, 06:15:47 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 08, 2013, 06:09:18 AM
Rhlor

It must suck to be a worshipper of a god whose name sounds like a bad case of throat infection.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2013, 05:23:03 AM
So, the synopsis of the last episode has been announced and it reads: [spoiler]Joffrey challenges Tywin[/spoiler]. I cannot guess what this might be referring to - and more importantly, will they feature [spoiler]Joffrey's wedding[/spoiler] this season or the next? I think doing it this season would make for a great finale. What do you think?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2013, 05:24:40 AM
Ah, I think I just remembered what this may refer to - and this likely mean we won't see the event his season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 10, 2013, 05:26:12 AM
Nope, that wedding will go in the next season. This season's weddings will be [spoiler]Tyrion and Sansa's and the Red Wedding[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 10, 2013, 08:26:18 AM
[spoiler]There's another wedding too, no? The Frey wedding. Isn't that the one with the big massacre?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 10, 2013, 08:26:44 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 10, 2013, 08:26:18 AM
[spoiler]There's another wedding too, no? The Frey wedding. Isn't that the one with the big massacre?[/spoiler]

Larch mentioned that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 10, 2013, 02:11:34 PM
Caught an inconsistency last night.

The Gay Knight is chatting with Whatsherface about their wedding and he starts burbling about her wedding dress.  Blah blah blah French sleeves.

You can't have French sleeves without a France. :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 10, 2013, 02:19:32 PM
Maybe there was a designer named French who invented them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2013, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 10, 2013, 02:11:34 PM
Caught an inconsistency last night.

The Gay Knight is chatting with Whatsherface about their wedding and he starts burbling about her wedding dress.  Blah blah blah French sleeves.

You can't have French sleeves without a France. :nerd:

It's a translation of the westerosi to English.  It was either that or "freedom sleeves"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 10, 2013, 03:09:45 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2013, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 10, 2013, 02:11:34 PM
Caught an inconsistency last night.

The Gay Knight is chatting with Whatsherface about their wedding and he starts burbling about her wedding dress.  Blah blah blah French sleeves.

You can't have French sleeves without a France. :nerd:

It's a translation of the westerosi to English.  It was either that or "freedom sleeves"

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Malicious Intent on May 10, 2013, 04:05:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 10, 2013, 02:11:34 PM
Caught an inconsistency last night.

The Gay Knight is chatting with Whatsherface about their wedding and he starts burbling about her wedding dress.  Blah blah blah French sleeves.

You can't have French sleeves without a France. :nerd:

I thought he said "fringed sleeves".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 10, 2013, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 10, 2013, 02:11:34 PM
Caught an inconsistency last night.

The Gay Knight is chatting with Whatsherface about their wedding and he starts burbling about her wedding dress.  Blah blah blah French sleeves.

You can't have French sleeves without a France. :nerd:

He says "fringe sleeves". This was already widely analysed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 10, 2013, 08:07:35 PM
Very disappointing episode. No sex or nudity; just Tyrion interrupting Shae barely undressing Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2013, 11:43:37 PM
Daring muff shot in this week's episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 13, 2013, 12:26:23 AM
Oona's ass was far better than I would have guessed. Looks a lot better naked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2013, 01:17:09 AM
That was a truly excellent ass.

I said so, and my wife agreed. I think she might have been talking about Rob's ass though...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 13, 2013, 01:32:41 AM
Robb's ass was cute.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 13, 2013, 03:42:24 AM
Anyways, another choppy episode after the Walk of Punishment...  :nelson:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 13, 2013, 03:44:52 AM
Anyways, I really like Natalie Dormer's portrayal of Margaery. She may be devious but she is not malicious - while Tyrion stealing Sansa's hand from Loras is not in her family's best interest, she is decent enough to point out to Sansa that she is not getting such a bad deal after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 13, 2013, 03:57:55 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 10, 2013, 08:07:35 PM
Very disappointing episode. No sex or nudity; just Tyrion interrupting Shae barely undressing Sansa.

Didn't the episode have Loras being fucking by the squire?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2013, 08:54:32 AM
Yeah, the scene with Sansa whining about having to marry a Lannister must have made Maergery want to slap her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2013, 08:55:04 AM
Which would have been hot, btw.

Sansa-Meargery.

Oh.

Yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 13, 2013, 08:59:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2013, 01:17:09 AM
That was a truly excellent ass.

I concur. Also, the shot of Daenerys in her white dress surrounded by dragons was well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2013, 01:34:00 AM
For all the Young Wolf ass shots, I gotta say my favourite scene in the episode was probably Tywin bitchslapping Joffrey.

What's great about this scene - in addition to great acting from both of them - is that, as some people have pointed out, Joffrey is probably right for the first time ever in every little petulant point he makes - yet Tywin still bitchslaps him and completely ignores him.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2013, 01:50:30 AM
The Tywin scene and Queen of the North's fine ass aside, I didn't like this episode. Almost entirely made of fillers when we are almost at the end of the season already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2013, 02:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2013, 01:50:30 AM
The Tywin scene and Queen of the North's fine ass aside, I didn't like this episode. Almost entirely made of fillers when we are almost at the end of the season already.

Funny that considering it was written by GRRM himself.

I liked the episode - including the filler parts, as they really developed some characters (the Jaime/Brienne non-teary good bye was truly moving) - besides if being nearly mauled by a bear constitutes a "filler" to you, I guess they are doing pretty well. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2013, 02:54:11 AM
That being said, I think the season would have worked much better if they did the Joff's wedding as the season's finale/cliffhanger, rather than the opener of the next season, if anything because everyone has been talking about the wedding for the whole season so that will be like Gogol's gun not firing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2013, 03:00:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2013, 02:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2013, 01:50:30 AM
The Tywin scene and Queen of the North's fine ass aside, I didn't like this episode. Almost entirely made of fillers when we are almost at the end of the season already.

Funny that considering it was written by GRRM himself.

I liked the episode - including the filler parts, as they really developed some characters (the Jaime/Brienne non-teary good bye was truly moving) - besides if being nearly mauled by a bear constitutes a "filler" to you, I guess they are doing pretty well. :P

Why being written by GRRM himself make it impossible for it to be a needlessly filler-y episode? The guy wrote 1.5 books worth of fillers :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 14, 2013, 03:07:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2013, 01:50:30 AM
The Tywin scene and Queen of the North's fine ass aside, I didn't like this episode. Almost entirely made of fillers when we are almost at the end of the season already.

I knew there would be some douche bitching and moaning...:hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2013, 03:17:30 AM
IDK man, I am getting tired of Ygritte's schenangians. Ok, shoving Robb's intimate lovelife into your face was sort of understandable due to SPOILERY SPOILERS coming. The rest? Meh. Maybe its because I read the books so I knew about the bear pit thing, but I didn't like this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2013, 03:28:54 AM
Well, I never really cared for the "beyond the wall" story arcs, so that neither ruins or makes the episode for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 14, 2013, 03:32:43 AM
Wait, what? Another nice addition from the books to feed the fans. Robb's queen is preggers. There's been lots of rumours about that but never anything confirmed.
This is a different queen so perhaps things aren't that way in the novels continuity but....wow.


A book based thought, small spoilers follow-
Why does Jamie decide to study sword fighting with his left hand. Might not a strap on sword like that of the guy in the Walking Dead be better? Maybe it needs to be hand and a half so his left can support it properly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 14, 2013, 09:12:21 AM
What is this show & removal of male genitals?

How do they pee?!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2013, 09:19:00 AM
I'd imagine it leaks out at the point where the pipe was cut.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 14, 2013, 09:34:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 14, 2013, 03:32:43 AM
A book based thought, small spoilers follow-
Why does Jamie decide to study sword fighting with his left hand.

:huh: Because his right one got cut off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 14, 2013, 09:38:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2013, 02:54:11 AM
That being said, I think the season would have worked much better if they did the Joff's wedding as the season's finale/cliffhanger, rather than the opener of the next season, if anything because everyone has been talking about the wedding for the whole season so that will be like Gogol's gun not firing.

I think your sense of chronology might need some work.  Joffrey doesn't have his wedding until near the end of book 3.  To have it pushed far forward to the end of season 3 instead of (my guess) episode 4-5 of the season 4 would be an absurd time shift, nevermind robbing the narrative oomph from Edmure's wedding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 18, 2013, 01:47:48 PM
I enjoyed the episode as there was good emotional dialogue and scenes as well as funny parts (Sansa+Margaery). We do feel sympathy for Ygritte in her love for the know-nothing Jon Snow. Producers definitely played the love between Robb and Talisa this episode to genuine height. Even the relationship between Jaime and Brienne was taken to a new level. Audience was probably very intrigued about the real introduction of Gendry to the game of thrones. Will the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa happen? Everything is getting built up for the shocking last three episodes of the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2013, 03:02:23 AM
I've finally caught up with the series. Gotta say, the casting director must be one of the luckiest men alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 03:06:20 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2013, 03:02:23 AM
I've finally caught up with the series. Gotta say, the casting director must be one of the luckiest men alive.
You think he tried them first?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2013, 03:07:27 AM
Isn't that how it works?  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on May 19, 2013, 03:08:34 AM
Roose change. It fits. Its coming. Get hype.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 03:11:35 AM
Any nude pics of Emilia Clarke outside of the show? I heard she got naked for a theatre performance, but I cannot find any pics. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 19, 2013, 03:27:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 14, 2013, 09:12:21 AM
What is this show & removal of male genitals?

How do they pee?!

With a stick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 19, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Danaerys. Naked.

And other stuff happened too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 20, 2013, 01:05:24 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 19, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Danaerys. Naked.
Amazing body.  Wow.  Great episode as it featured by 3 favorites:  Stannis, The Hound, and Davos.  :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2013, 01:06:04 AM
I thought Gendry was gonna get burned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 20, 2013, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 03:11:35 AM
Any nude pics of Emilia Clarke outside of the show? I heard she got naked for a theatre performance, but I cannot find any pics. :(
ffs do you not know who to use the internets?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2013, 01:47:27 AM
Three leeches. One for the beloved king, one for the fat king and one for the little dick.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2013, 10:28:10 AM
Fuck, and now we have to apparently wait 2 weeks for the most badass plot twist since Ned's beheading.  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
Rewatching it now. The Tyrion and Sansa scene was really moving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 20, 2013, 02:41:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
Rewatching it now. The Tyrion and Sansa scene was really moving.
The Night's Watch oath quip before passing out was a nice touch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 20, 2013, 02:57:05 PM
I like that Stannis is not all evil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 20, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
When I saw the young mercenary captain (very cute) offer his present - and his allegiance - to Dhaenarys I thought this one would be fit to ride a dragon at her side.

So if I understand correctly, the little bitch Joeffrey doesn't choke on poison until his own wedding - next year yes?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 20, 2013, 03:43:45 PM
Someone needs to learn the spoiler tags.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 12:26:55 AM
Btw, is there a theory that Daario Naharis is Jaqen H'ghar? They kinda look similar and act in a similar manner ("Valar morghulis", "lovely girl") so I wonder if this is deliberate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 21, 2013, 01:00:13 AM
Isn't the entire point of being a faceless man that you can adopt different personalities as well as faces?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2013, 01:49:05 AM
If so, he travels pretty fast. Look how long it took Barristan to find his way to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 21, 2013, 03:11:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 12:26:55 AM
Btw, is there a theory that Daario Naharis is Jaqen H'ghar? They kinda look similar and act in a similar manner ("Valar morghulis", "lovely girl") so I wonder if this is deliberate.
My friend asked me that.  I don't think so.  Unless I'm mistaken it's fairly clearly spelled out that he [spoiler]ends up in Old Town as Pate.  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pate_%28Novice%29[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2013, 09:13:35 AM
AV Club posts some pretty good post-show reviews. In this one, writer goes on about nudity at great length. Also questions, something I thought of early, why they left Sam's scene  with the icewalker for so late (it happens pretty early in Book 3).

http://www.avclub.com/articles/second-sons-for-experts,97439/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 09:19:25 AM
I hate that we have been treated to female full frontal several times so far but no male full frontal this season yet.

Plus, it looks like the current trend is that whenever a guy is involved in a sex scene, something bad happens to him next.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2013, 10:00:08 AM
I'm pretty sure we saw cock a few weeks back
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 10:18:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 09:19:25 AM
I hate that we have been treated to female full frontal several times so far but no male full frontal this season yet.


Women mostly don't care about nudity the way men do, and gay men are only some 5% of society, and hence 5% of viewership, and hence should only get a nude shot about once every 20 episodes or so.

I think you guys are way ahead of the curve. Quit bitching!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2013, 11:09:19 AM
Are gay guys really that eager to see flaccid dicks on screen?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 21, 2013, 12:21:18 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2013, 11:09:19 AM
Are gay guys really that eager to see flaccid dicks on screen?

Surely they can fit a hard cock in the budget?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: fhdz on May 21, 2013, 01:17:32 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2013, 12:21:18 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2013, 11:09:19 AM
Are gay guys really that eager to see flaccid dicks on screen?

Surely they can fit a hard cock in the budget?

I'm sure they can fit it somewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 01:23:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 10:18:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 09:19:25 AM
I hate that we have been treated to female full frontal several times so far but no male full frontal this season yet.


Women mostly don't care about nudity the way men do, and gay men are only some 5% of society, and hence 5% of viewership, and hence should only get a nude shot about once every 20 episodes or so.

I think you guys are way ahead of the curve. Quit bitching!

I would say gays make up much more than 5% of the audience of a show like GoT. It may be not Glee, but it's in the True Blood territory. It's one of 20 TV shows or so that have their own recap columns on afterelton.com and backlot.com.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 01:29:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 01:23:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 10:18:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 09:19:25 AM
I hate that we have been treated to female full frontal several times so far but no male full frontal this season yet.


Women mostly don't care about nudity the way men do, and gay men are only some 5% of society, and hence 5% of viewership, and hence should only get a nude shot about once every 20 episodes or so.

I think you guys are way ahead of the curve. Quit bitching!

I would say gays make up much more than 5% of the audience of a show like GoT. It may be not Glee, but it's in the True Blood territory. It's one of 20 TV shows or so that have their own recap columns on afterelton.com and backlot.com.

Just because lots of gays watch the show doesn't mean that "much more' of the audience is gay than 5%. Lots of everybody watches the show. It has recap columns all over the internet.

Just be glad we even let you guys watch at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 21, 2013, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 19, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Danaerys. Naked.

And other stuff happened too.

Melisandre too. Damn I'd let her put leeches on me all day long.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 02:33:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 01:29:40 PM
Just be glad we even let you guys watch at all.

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 02:34:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 21, 2013, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 19, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Danaerys. Naked.

And other stuff happened too.

Melisandre too. Damn I'd let her put leeches on me all day long.

I don't get it. I do find Danaerys hot (even if I am not interested), and I can see how she could make men swoon. But Melisandre? She looks like a school teacher.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
So you understand it after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: fhdz on May 21, 2013, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 02:34:06 PM
She looks like a school teacher.

:sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 21, 2013, 03:23:27 PM
By the way, I can't wait for Jorah to have a hissy jealousy fit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 03:24:19 PM
I never had any schoolteachers built like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2013, 05:24:15 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 21, 2013, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 19, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Danaerys. Naked.

And other stuff happened too.

Melisandre too. Damn I'd let her put leeches on me all day long.

On your cock too?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 05:58:38 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2013, 11:09:19 AM
Are gay guys really that eager to see flaccid dicks on screen?


A cock is a beautiful thing - flacid or not - and the ratio is not quite on par with the amount of breasts yet.  Gods we even saw a snatch last week...  Thank the Gods it wasn't opened!  :yuk:



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 21, 2013, 06:00:50 PM
It's a complete double standard that they show weiners but no cookies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 06:11:24 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2013, 11:09:19 AM
Are gay guys really that eager to see flaccid dicks on screen?

I'm not but I'm a minority. -_-
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 06:46:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 06:11:24 PM


I'm not but I'm a minority. -_-



Sometimes I wonder if your homosexuality is nothing but a pose :yeahright:



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:35:15 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 06:46:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 06:11:24 PM


I'm not but I'm a minority. -_-



Sometimes I wonder if your homosexuality is nothing but a pose :yeahright:



G.

I can see cocks any day in person. What's the titillation of seeing them on tv?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:35:15 PM

I can see cocks any day in person. What's the titillation of seeing them on tv?


I rather doubt this - but let's say it's true for the sake of argument.  That fact doesn't preclude appreciating beauty when and where you find it - irrespective of its titillating aspect.  Besides I find it encouraging the double standards too often seen in mainstream TV are lessened with such scenes.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 07:41:07 PM
 :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:35:15 PM

I can see cocks any day in person. What's the titillation of seeing them on tv?


I rather doubt this - but let's say it's true for the sake of argument.  That fact doesn't preclude appreciating beauty when and where you find it - irrespective of its titillating aspect.  Besides I find it encouraging the double standards too often seen in mainstream TV are lessened with such scenes.



G.

It's totally true. On any given day there are a slew of places in New York where one can see male cock on display.  I wasn't making some claims to sexual prowess. ;)

Also, penises aren't beautiful. Useful? Sure. Beautiful? Not so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:50:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:41:26 PM

Also, penises aren't beautiful. Useful? Sure. Beautiful? Not so much.


How very utilitarian of you...  Merely useful?  You don't even indulge in anal! 

But since you wish to be technical - then yes - a penis isn't very 'beautiful' per se.  It's the symbolic charge that is.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:53:16 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:50:06 PM
How very utilitarian of you...  Merely useful?  You don't even indulge in anal! 

What? That's Marti, not me.

And sorry, I don't deal with symbolic penises. Not a fan of Freud. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:58:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:53:16 PM

And sorry, I don't deal with symbolic penises. Not a fan of Freud. :P



You're so aggravating !  <_<


Well to my discharge - and at my age - symbols have more substance than the real thing.  :mellow:




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:59:58 PM
No offense but I think that might just be you and your type. Doesn't seem to be the case for most "older" men I've met.

In quotes because as far as I remember you aren't even that old.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on May 21, 2013, 08:00:43 PM
This thread has turned into a load of cock.   :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2013, 08:00:43 PM
This thread has turned into a load of cock.   :hmm:

I don't think it is cock that is usually referred to as a load.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on May 21, 2013, 08:11:46 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2013, 08:00:43 PM
This thread has turned into a load of cock.   :hmm:

I don't think it is cock that is usually referred to as a load.

Mother tongue do you speak?   :P

edit:
to be entirely accurate, I guess the original expression is "a load of old cock".  :bowler:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 21, 2013, 08:16:52 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:35:15 PM

I can see cocks any day in person. What's the titillation of seeing them on tv?


I rather doubt this - but let's say it's true for the sake of argument.  That fact doesn't preclude appreciating beauty when and where you find it - irrespective of its titillating aspect.  Besides I find it encouraging the double standards too often seen in mainstream TV are lessened with such scenes.



G.
Psssst.  Look down.  A cock you can see any day you want, Grallon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 08:19:58 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2013, 08:11:46 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2013, 08:00:43 PM
This thread has turned into a load of cock.   :hmm:

I don't think it is cock that is usually referred to as a load.

Mother tongue do you speak?   :P

edit:
to be entirely accurate, I guess the original expression is "a load of old cock".  :bowler:

I just wanted to be sexual. -_-
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2013, 08:20:13 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 21, 2013, 08:16:52 PM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:35:15 PM

I can see cocks any day in person. What's the titillation of seeing them on tv?


I rather doubt this - but let's say it's true for the sake of argument.  That fact doesn't preclude appreciating beauty when and where you find it - irrespective of its titillating aspect.  Besides I find it encouraging the double standards too often seen in mainstream TV are lessened with such scenes.



G.
Psssst.  Look down.  A cock you can see any day you want, Grallon.

Not symbolic enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 08:39:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 08:20:13 PM

Not symbolic enough.



:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2013, 09:49:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2013, 07:41:26 PM
Also, penises aren't beautiful. Useful? Sure. Beautiful? Not so much.

Mine is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 21, 2013, 11:07:55 PM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 03:11:35 AM
Any nude pics of Emilia Clarke outside of the show? I heard she got naked for a theatre performance, but I cannot find any pics. :(
ffs do you not know who to use the internets?
Show me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 22, 2013, 01:15:42 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 21, 2013, 11:07:55 PM
Quote from: katmai on May 20, 2013, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 03:11:35 AM
Any nude pics of Emilia Clarke outside of the show? I heard she got naked for a theatre performance, but I cannot find any pics. :(
ffs do you not know who to use the internets?
Show me.

No.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 22, 2013, 10:40:49 AM
Quote from: Grallon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:54 PM
I rather doubt this - but let's say it's true for the sake of argument.  That fact doesn't preclude appreciating beauty when and where you find it - irrespective of its titillating aspect.  Besides I find it encouraging the double standards too often seen in mainstream TV are lessened with such scenes.

There are naked women on mainstream TV? :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 22, 2013, 10:47:42 AM
Yes, just not in the US.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 22, 2013, 10:51:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 22, 2013, 10:47:42 AM
Yes, just not in the US.

:weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 28, 2013, 06:22:45 AM
Why is there no new  episode this week? Surely that wasn't the end of the series? :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 28, 2013, 07:01:22 AM
Who knows, but HBO Go says the next episode available next week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 28, 2013, 07:02:51 AM
Memorial Day Weekend in the US. It's caused the ratings to crash, so they're skipping it. It will be on next Sunday.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2013, 06:22:45 AM
Why is there no new  episode this week? Surely that wasn't the end of the series? :unsure:

Yes, this was the end of the series. The show was cancelled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 28, 2013, 08:01:24 AM
They should have known people wouldn't be alright with all those mentions of incest. :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 28, 2013, 08:17:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2013, 06:22:45 AM
Why is there no new  episode this week? Surely that wasn't the end of the series? :unsure:

Yes, this was the end of the series. The show was cancelled.
tyr refuses to acknowledge the internationally accepted series/season naming structure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 08:38:31 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 28, 2013, 08:17:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2013, 06:22:45 AM
Why is there no new  episode this week? Surely that wasn't the end of the series? :unsure:

Yes, this was the end of the series. The show was cancelled.
tyr refuses to acknowledge the internationally accepted series/season naming structure.

Oh I wasn't referring to that. Just that, in this day and age of shows going on hiatus mid-season/series being a common place, out of many possible explanations, he chose the most unlikely one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 28, 2013, 08:54:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 08:38:31 AM
Oh I wasn't referring to that. Just that, in this day and age of shows going on hiatus mid-season/series being a common place, out of many possible explanations, he chose the most unlikely one.

Not true, the series ending would be even more unlikely than the season ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 28, 2013, 09:01:57 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 28, 2013, 08:54:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 08:38:31 AM
Oh I wasn't referring to that. Just that, in this day and age of shows going on hiatus mid-season/series being a common place, out of many possible explanations, he chose the most unlikely one.

Not true, the series ending would be even more unlikely than the season ending.

Why are you quibbling? It was clear that Jos was talking about seasons and Mart wasn't nitpicking him on that. He was simply saying that Jos picked a very unlikely explanation for why the show wasn't on this weekend.  What's the problem other than yet another time where I want to backhand Jos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 28, 2013, 09:15:59 AM
I post on Languish, therefore I quibble  :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 28, 2013, 09:36:39 AM
Quote
Oh I wasn't referring to that. Just that, in this day and age of shows going on hiatus mid-season/series being a common place, out of many possible explanations, he chose the most unlikely one.
:sleep:
I said surely not. I know its most likely not the case yet something weird is up.

Quote from: HVC on May 28, 2013, 08:17:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2013, 06:22:45 AM
Why is there no new  episode this week? Surely that wasn't the end of the series? :unsure:

Yes, this was the end of the series. The show was cancelled.
tyr refuses to acknowledge the internationally accepted series/season naming structure.

....errr....its not internationally recognised, its American English.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 28, 2013, 10:02:15 AM
Which is international English, especially in media and entertainment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 28, 2013, 10:22:29 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2013, 09:36:39 AM
Quote
Oh I wasn't referring to that. Just that, in this day and age of shows going on hiatus mid-season/series being a common place, out of many possible explanations, he chose the most unlikely one.
:sleep:
I said surely not. I know its most likely not the case yet something weird is up.

Quote from: HVC on May 28, 2013, 08:17:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 28, 2013, 06:22:45 AM
Why is there no new  episode this week? Surely that wasn't the end of the series? :unsure:

Yes, this was the end of the series. The show was cancelled.
tyr refuses to acknowledge the internationally accepted series/season naming structure.

....errr....its not internationally recognised, its American English.

Yeah something weird like a holiday that happens every year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2013, 10:35:50 AM
What use is a holiday if it happens only once a year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 28, 2013, 10:39:58 AM
I love the English but they don't speak proper English. America fuck ja.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 28, 2013, 02:16:35 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 28, 2013, 10:39:58 AM
I love the English but they don't speak proper English. America fuck ja.

I knew you weren't all bad. :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2013, 03:10:57 AM
Fuck my life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on May 30, 2013, 03:14:48 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2013, 03:10:57 AM
Fuck my life.
:( What happened?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 30, 2013, 03:16:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on May 30, 2013, 03:14:48 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2013, 03:10:57 AM
Fuck my life.
:( What happened?

Obama pulled out of Iraq and won't send Siegy to Afghanistan. Either that or they ran out of "beer".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 30, 2013, 03:17:39 AM
Fucking Game of Therones taking a break.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 30, 2013, 03:19:00 AM
Oh, he's just drunk and found out that Ep9 isn't until next week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on June 02, 2013, 11:59:09 AM
Cosplay gone horribly, HORRIBLY wrong. :bleeding:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgamesn.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fgame%2520of%2520thrones%2520cosplay%2520laknsd.png&hash=336e6f19676c5df3bfba458ceee8aa009c9d21a6)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 02, 2013, 12:00:39 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 02, 2013, 11:59:09 AM
Cosplay gone horribly, HORRIBLY wrong. :bleeding:

It went wrong the moment a man decided to try it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 02, 2013, 03:39:43 PM
On Monday?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Now. 13 is quite an old age to be prevented from books and television. :wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2013, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 02, 2013, 03:39:43 PM
On Monday?

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 02, 2013, 05:45:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
At 13 I doubt he'll be learning anything new.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 02, 2013, 05:48:26 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/375771_10151633902917248_607738699_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Now. 13 is quite an old age to be prevented from books and television. :wacko:

Really?

Is that a typical consensus?

Thirteen seems kind of young to me for rated-M violence and sexuality.

Hell, it isn't even the violence and sexuality that concerns me so much as the kinds of violence and sexuality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 02, 2013, 07:55:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Now. 13 is quite an old age to be prevented from books and television. :wacko:

Really?

Is that a typical consensus?

Thirteen seems kind of young to me for rated-M violence and sexuality.

Hell, it isn't even the violence and sexuality that concerns me so much as the kinds of violence and sexuality.
13 seems good enough for boobies. As for violence, he's probably seen worse already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 02, 2013, 07:56:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Now. 13 is quite an old age to be prevented from books and television. :wacko:


Thirteen seems kind of young to me for rated-M violence and sexuality.

Hell, it isn't even the violence and sexuality that concerns me so much as the kinds of violence and sexuality.

+1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 02, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Now. 13 is quite an old age to be prevented from books and television. :wacko:
Really?

Is that a typical consensus?

Thirteen seems kind of young to me for rated-M violence and sexuality.

Hell, it isn't even the violence and sexuality that concerns me so much as the kinds of violence and sexuality.
I guess you know your kid better, but it seems like the sorts of sexuality that are on display are sorts that would be familiar to the modern viewer.  And of course a young boy must be familiar with all kinds of violence thanks to action and horror films.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
13 seems a little young for GoT.

Would you be comfortable sitting there and watching a fucking scene with the kid?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 02, 2013, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
13 seems a little young for GoT.

Would you be comfortable sitting there and watching a fucking scene with the kid?
i'd feel uncomfortable watching that with my parents now :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 02, 2013, 08:01:35 PM
16 sounds ok.
Any younger than that, is a no-go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2013, 08:02:09 PM
I think 13 is a bit young for the sorts of sex and violence that are in the books.  He's not even in high school yet.  He'll enjoy the story more when he's older anyway.

I think the Hebrew has it right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 02, 2013, 08:04:14 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 02, 2013, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
13 seems a little young for GoT.

Would you be comfortable sitting there and watching a fucking scene with the kid?
i'd feel uncomfortable watching that with my parents now :D
No shit.  I remember being a bit younger than that when I was watching Terminator with my parents.  I was super uncomfortable Michael Biehn put an Edward Furlong into Linda Hamilton's belly, and thus create this weird loop in time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 08:26:50 PM
For me growing up in a New England suburb: marijuana usage appeared by age 10, blowjobs by age 11, and thongs by age 12. From present-day anecdotal reports and news stories, that stuff is now appearing even earlier in elementary school. :wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 02, 2013, 08:30:55 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 08:26:50 PM
For me growing up in a New England suburb: marijuana usage appeared by age 10, blowjobs by age 11, and thongs by age 12. From present-day anecdotal reports and news stories, that stuff is now appearing even earlier in elementary school. :wacko:

Not everyone grows up in the projects.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 02, 2013, 08:56:15 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 02, 2013, 07:55:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 02, 2013, 03:18:23 PM
My 13 year old is asking me when he can watch the show or read the books.
Now. 13 is quite an old age to be prevented from books and television. :wacko:

Really?

Is that a typical consensus?

Thirteen seems kind of young to me for rated-M violence and sexuality.

Hell, it isn't even the violence and sexuality that concerns me so much as the kinds of violence and sexuality.
13 seems good enough for boobies. As for violence, he's probably seen worse already.

Not to mention all the double penetrations he's seen on the Internet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 02, 2013, 08:57:19 PM
btw...that was an excellent episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 02, 2013, 09:07:29 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 02, 2013, 08:57:19 PM
btw...that was an excellent episode.

Oh yeah, as brutal as expected and more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 09:30:56 PM
I have not watched it yet. Any tears?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 02, 2013, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 02, 2013, 08:30:55 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 02, 2013, 08:26:50 PM
For me growing up in a New England suburb: marijuana usage appeared by age 10, blowjobs by age 11, and thongs by age 12. From present-day anecdotal reports and news stories, that stuff is now appearing even earlier in elementary school. :wacko:
Not everyone grows up in the projects.
But most people grow up near a news source.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 02, 2013, 11:11:53 PM
Fucking just airing here you douches.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 02, 2013, 11:28:03 PM
Quote from: katmai on June 02, 2013, 11:11:53 PM
Fucking just airing here you douches.

Spoiler Alert: The Lannisters do not appear in this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 12:45:58 AM
I have been waiting for this ever since they announced they are making a Game of Thrones series:

https://twitter.com/redweddingtears

:D

Btw, awesome episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 03, 2013, 12:50:39 AM
Hahaha.  That's amusing.  Some people are such clowns. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 03, 2013, 12:56:12 AM
I think this was the episode that everyone has been waiting to see since the series was announced. I thought they did a pretty good job. It really does highlight, though, that Dany is on another, more boring, show than all the other characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 01:00:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNaDBK5n.jpg&hash=144c8a809642d2a51c2d8d13bc13f2da3335906f)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlUDEarS.jpg&hash=cd20a5427f87c3e41704ffe8ba8cc85abc996112)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 01:00:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNaDBK5n.jpg&hash=144c8a809642d2a51c2d8d13bc13f2da3335906f)


:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:05:57 AM
Incidentally, I wonder how many non-book-readers make the connection that the song was Rains of Castamere? I wouldn't recognize it if I didn't know it was coming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 03, 2013, 01:19:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:05:57 AM
Incidentally, I wonder how many non-book-readers make the connection that the song was Rains of Castamere? I wouldn't recognize it if I didn't know it was coming.
It was played a few times during the past season and a half.  I instantly recognized it.  Granted I have enjoy the soundtracks, but...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 03, 2013, 01:29:35 AM
Glad to see the whiny Jon Snow get his face scratched by a bird.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 03, 2013, 02:30:36 AM
Quote from: Kleves on June 03, 2013, 12:56:12 AM
I think this was the episode that everyone has been waiting to see since the series was announced. I thought they did a pretty good job. It really does highlight, though, that Dany is on another, more boring, show than all the other characters.

That's what I thought about the books.  I thought her whole story could be cut, and have her become a character when (or if) she arrives in Westeros.  I remember someone on this board telling me it would be massive deus ex machina if a long lost Targaryen just popped up in one of the later books.  Ahem.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 05:24:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 01:00:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNaDBK5n.jpg&hash=144c8a809642d2a51c2d8d13bc13f2da3335906f)


:lol:

He didn't, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 03, 2013, 05:52:53 AM
I smell another shout out to the book fans in the Stark wifey being stabbed in the stomach like that- follows hot on the heels of it being confirmed that yes Robb's wife is pregnant. Oh...not any more. Woops.


I loved how full frontal and almost cartoonishly bloody it was.
One thing I didn't like was The Twins small scale. I noticed that in earlier episodes too, thought it might be upped here, alas no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 06:32:56 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 05:24:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 01:00:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNaDBK5n.jpg&hash=144c8a809642d2a51c2d8d13bc13f2da3335906f)


:lol:

He didn't, though.

Yes, he did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 03, 2013, 06:40:40 AM
Excellent episode. Just one more left and then it's waiting until April again. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 03, 2013, 06:54:27 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 03, 2013, 01:19:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:05:57 AM
Incidentally, I wonder how many non-book-readers make the connection that the song was Rains of Castamere? I wouldn't recognize it if I didn't know it was coming.
It was played a few times during the past season and a half.  I instantly recognized it.  Granted I have enjoy the soundtracks, but...

And Cersei just explained the background on the last episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: chipwich on June 03, 2013, 07:36:54 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4N69pz4.png&hash=a1ed69c6dfe3f8cc360a14c33a63a250f8349ba6)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 09:16:55 AM
For archers they were also pretty good musicians.....I'm assuming they were the same people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 06:32:56 AM
Yes, he did.

I thought they lead him out and killed him out of sight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 03, 2013, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 06:32:56 AM
Yes, he did.

I thought they lead him out and killed him out of sight.

Best advice about GoT: Never assume a character as dead unless you've seen it being slaughtered on-screen.

For instance, the Blackfish wasn't on the room either, he had left to pee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
Well my recollection could be wrong. Are you saying Edmure survived? Cause I thought he died in the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 03, 2013, 10:07:16 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 09:16:55 AM
For archers they were also pretty good musicians.....I'm assuming they were the same people.
Yeah, that was a point in the novels, that during the feast the musicians were suspiciously crap. Sad they didn;'t keep that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 03, 2013, 10:09:50 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
Well my recollection could be wrong. Are you saying Edmure survived? Cause I thought he died in the book.

No he didn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 03, 2013, 10:11:37 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
Well my recollection could be wrong. Are you saying Edmure survived? Cause I thought he died in the book.

You obviously didn't pay much attention, as he keeps appearing on later books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 10:14:44 AM
He wasn't a very noteworthy character.  :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 03, 2013, 11:14:47 AM
Edmure was badly beaten and thrown in the dungeon iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 11:44:23 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 10:14:44 AM
He wasn't a very noteworthy character.  :sleep:

:huh:  He is deliberately brought up in a noteworthy manner on multiple occasions later on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 11:48:06 AM
A Feast For Crows wasn't a very noteworthy book.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
Edmure survived. Until the child of his and the Frey chick is born, he is the lord of Riverrun and if he dies, presumably Catelyn's children stand to inherit. Freys will not kill him until they have the heir in their hands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 11:56:57 AM
Oh, that makes sense, or at least to a twisted fuck like Walder Frey it would. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
i now watched this episode three times, and I can't stop crying at the end every single time. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley are amazing in that last scene. And the fact that the credits roll in total silence is a master stroke.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 03, 2013, 02:16:36 PM
Yeah, the credits without music was perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
i now watched this episode three times, and I can't stop crying at the end every single time. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley are amazing in that last scene. And the fact that the credits roll in total silence is a master stroke.

Ditto. That whole episode was well done, right down to the silent credits. Not sure why they chose not to end the season with that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on June 03, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
i now watched this episode three times, and I can't stop crying at the end every single time. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley are amazing in that last scene. And the fact that the credits roll in total silence is a master stroke.

Ditto. That whole episode was well done, right down to the silent credits. Not sure why they chose not to end the season with that.

You can't end the season on the Red Wedding.  What a downer, looks like it is all over.  Have to set up a cliffhanger / new plotlines for next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2013, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
Have to set up a cliffhanger / new plotlines for next season.

Blond chick sailing towards Westeros with her jannissaries and dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
i now watched this episode three times, and I can't stop crying at the end every single time. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley are amazing in that last scene. And the fact that the credits roll in total silence is a master stroke.

Ditto. That whole episode was well done, right down to the silent credits. Not sure why they chose not to end the season with that.

You can't end the season on the Red Wedding.  What a downer, looks like it is all over.  Have to set up a cliffhanger / new plotlines for next season.

Season One ended on a downer. I like big, talk-about endings. Next week might be rather tame by comparison. Everyone will still be talking about the Red wedding.

[spoiler]Unless they do Joffrey's wedding...but I don't think that's happening now.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2013, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
Have to set up a cliffhanger / new plotlines for next season.

Blond chick sailing towards Westeros with her jannissaries and dragons.

She's still on the other continent at the end of book 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 03, 2013, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 03, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 03, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
i now watched this episode three times, and I can't stop crying at the end every single time. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley are amazing in that last scene. And the fact that the credits roll in total silence is a master stroke.

Ditto. That whole episode was well done, right down to the silent credits. Not sure why they chose not to end the season with that.

You can't end the season on the Red Wedding.  What a downer, looks like it is all over.  Have to set up a cliffhanger / new plotlines for next season.

Season One ended on a downer. I like big, talk-about endings. Next week might be rather tame by comparison. Everyone will still be talking about the Red wedding.

[spoiler]Unless they do Joffrey's wedding...but I don't think that's happening now.[/spoiler]

That's for the next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 04:31:59 PM
She's still on the other continent at the end of book 5.

Broads.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 03, 2013, 04:54:28 PM
Man, I really hate Dany in Meerin.
I got almost as angry with her blunders as I got with the Red Wedding the first time i read it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 03, 2013, 06:48:08 PM
I'm constantly amazed at how well they subsume the books into the show.  The look on Cathlyn's face when 'the Rains of Castamere' begins ...  The look on Ygritte's face when she realizes John is abandoning her...  The look on Arya's face when she sees Rob's direwolf murdered...

Perhaps the ease with which those books translate onto the screen is due to Martin's very graphic prose?  Still episodes like this prove TV can sometimes enhance literature.


G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 03, 2013, 06:51:10 PM
Quote from: Grallon on June 03, 2013, 06:48:08 PM
I'm constantly amazed at how well they subsume the books into the show.  The look on Cathlyn's face when 'the Rains of Castamere' begins ...  The look on Ygritte's face when she realizes John is abandoning her...  The look on Arya's face when she sees Rob's direwolf murdered...

Perhaps the ease with which those books translate onto the screen is due to Martin's very graphic prose?  Still episodes like this prove TV can sometimes enhance literature.


G.

Only because you already read the books so all these facial expressions had meaning for you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 03, 2013, 06:55:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 03, 2013, 06:51:10 PM
Only because you already read the books so all these facial expressions had meaning for you.

Uh, they were pretty clear expressions and easily understood just from what had already happened on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Quote from: Grallon on June 03, 2013, 06:48:08 PM
Perhaps the ease with which those books translate onto the screen is due to Martin's very graphic prose?  Still episodes like this prove TV can sometimes enhance literature.

That and his background in television.  I suspect he writes a lot of chapters while trying to imagine what it'd look like on the screen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 03, 2013, 08:51:44 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Quote from: Grallon on June 03, 2013, 06:48:08 PM
Perhaps the ease with which those books translate onto the screen is due to Martin's very graphic prose?  Still episodes like this prove TV can sometimes enhance literature.

That and his background in television.  I suspect he writes a lot of chapters while trying to imagine what it'd look like on the screen.

Which might explain why he gets so bogged down in his details. :bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2013, 08:56:03 PM
:yes:  It's a double-edged sword.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2013, 11:17:35 PM
Just watched.

Didn't quite live up to the Languish hype.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 03, 2013, 11:52:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2013, 11:17:35 PM
Just watched.

Didn't quite live up to the Languish hype.

I've not watched season 3 but book-wise it was pretty good/bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 12:18:28 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Season One ended on a downer.

The fuck it didn't. It ended with "King in the North", the Night's Watch expedition setting off and, most importantly of all, the birth of dragons, probably the most uplifting/elating scene in the entire show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 12:20:02 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 03, 2013, 06:55:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 03, 2013, 06:51:10 PM
Only because you already read the books so all these facial expressions had meaning for you.

Uh, they were pretty clear expressions and easily understood just from what had already happened on the show.

You need to have empathy to understand people's expressions. Siegy is a psychopath so he doesn't get it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 04, 2013, 12:32:25 AM
He really doesn't fit the criteria for that.  It would be hard to diagnose that sort of thing by reading someone's posts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 04, 2013, 12:36:10 AM
Maybe he just wasn't paying attention.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 04, 2013, 07:28:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 12:18:28 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Season One ended on a downer.

The fuck it didn't. It ended with "King in the North", the Night's Watch expedition setting off and, most importantly of all, the birth of dragons, probably the most uplifting/elating scene in the entire show.

Right. For some reason I thought the beheading was the finale, but yeah, it wasn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 07:31:16 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 04, 2013, 07:28:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 12:18:28 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Season One ended on a downer.

The fuck it didn't. It ended with "King in the North", the Night's Watch expedition setting off and, most importantly of all, the birth of dragons, probably the most uplifting/elating scene in the entire show.

Right. For some reason I thought the beheading was the finale, but yeah, it wasn't.

It's always like this. Episode 9 of every season is the "shit hits the fan episode". Ned gets beheaded. Stannis gets obliterated at Black Water. Red Wedding happens.

Episode 10, the finale, always sets up more cliffhangers and gives the viewers hope in a reversal of fate. I predict this one will show Berric Dondarrion finding something in the river.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 04, 2013, 07:33:24 AM
That quickly? Yes, it could happen. Hopefully viewers will put 2 & 2 together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 04, 2013, 07:59:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 07:31:16 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 04, 2013, 07:28:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 12:18:28 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 03, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Season One ended on a downer.

The fuck it didn't. It ended with "King in the North", the Night's Watch expedition setting off and, most importantly of all, the birth of dragons, probably the most uplifting/elating scene in the entire show.

Right. For some reason I thought the beheading was the finale, but yeah, it wasn't.

It's always like this. Episode 9 of every season is the "shit hits the fan episode". Ned gets beheaded. Stannis gets obliterated at Black Water. Red Wedding happens.

Episode 10, the finale, always sets up more cliffhangers and gives the viewers hope in a reversal of fate. I predict this one will show Berric Dondarrion finding something in the river.

Nymeria finds [spoiler]her[/spoiler], not Berric.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 04, 2013, 08:07:17 AM
They both do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 04, 2013, 08:08:57 AM
Quote from: Neil on June 04, 2013, 08:07:17 AM
They both do.

Nymeria finds [spoiler]stoneheart[/spoiler] and keeps the wolves from eating, the commotion alerts the BWB which then scatters the wolves to see the [spoiler]body[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 04, 2013, 09:52:49 AM
http://seenive.com/v/953457034706210816#.Ua3_IEDWV8E
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 04, 2013, 10:00:00 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fi%2F2013%2F05%2F25%2Fgame-of-thrones-red-wedding.gif&hash=f7354838ee78ed8e6848d6f55e01989a89d095a9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 04, 2013, 10:23:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 04, 2013, 12:20:02 AM
You need to have empathy to understand people's expressions. Siegy is a psychopath so he doesn't get it.

Oh you're just bursting with empathy, aren't you?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 04, 2013, 10:44:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frack.3.mshcdn.com%2Fmedia%2FZgkyMDEzLzA2LzAzL2IxL3A3Sk42akguMGVjNGYuZ2lmCnAJdGh1bWIJMTIwMHg5NjAwPg%2Fc2008119%2F386%2Fp7JN6jH.gif&hash=2092a98b861b9153eabb59c9db334994e18fd904)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 04, 2013, 10:46:28 AM
I am kind of torn about whether to recommend to someone to read the book or watch the series first.

Normally, I would almost always recommend reading the book first, but some of the "reveals" in GoT are so good on screen, I don't know if they have the same impact reading them, and those reveals alone might be worth watching the show first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 04, 2013, 10:48:04 AM
I've been advising people to watch one season, then read the book for that season between the seasons, then watch a second season and then read the second book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 04, 2013, 10:50:01 AM
My favorite part of that whole episode was Arya and The Hound.

Arya- "Someday I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull."

The look on The Hounds face was priceless.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 04, 2013, 03:50:48 PM
Just dawned on me there was narry a boob nor a muff,and it was still a damn fine episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:51:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 04, 2013, 10:48:04 AM
I've been advising people to watch one season, then read the book for that season between the seasons, then watch a second season and then read the second book.

People pay you for this advice?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:52:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2013, 10:46:28 AM
I am kind of torn about whether to recommend to someone to read the book or watch the series first.

Normally, I would almost always recommend reading the book first, but some of the "reveals" in GoT are so good on screen, I don't know if they have the same impact reading them, and those reveals alone might be worth watching the show first.

Play the computer game first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 04, 2013, 03:52:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:51:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 04, 2013, 10:48:04 AM
I've been advising people to watch one season, then read the book for that season between the seasons, then watch a second season and then read the second book.

People pay you for this advice?

:blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
Both the board game and card game are pretty good. Well, one of the board games, haven't played them all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:55:35 PM
Haven't played the RPG, just looked at it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on June 04, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:55:35 PM
Haven't played the RPG, just looked at it.

It's reasonably solid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 04, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 04, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2013, 03:55:35 PM
Haven't played the RPG, just looked at it.

It's reasonably solid.

Which of the two versions? I loved the first one, particulary the combat system, which made for some agonizing (but very enjoyable nonetheless) sessions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on June 04, 2013, 07:41:55 PM
The board game is great.  I can't recommend the RPGs, but I love the board game with the first two expansions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 04, 2013, 08:21:20 PM
The boardgame is someone's retarded Diplomacy variant.  It's awful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 04, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
What games are you guys talking about?
Computer games or tabletop games?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 04, 2013, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2013, 10:44:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frack.3.mshcdn.com%2Fmedia%2FZgkyMDEzLzA2LzAzL2IxL3A3Sk42akguMGVjNGYuZ2lmCnAJdGh1bWIJMTIwMHg5NjAwPg%2Fc2008119%2F386%2Fp7JN6jH.gif&hash=2092a98b861b9153eabb59c9db334994e18fd904)
What on earth is that clip from?
Looks odd
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 04, 2013, 08:44:04 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 04, 2013, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2013, 10:44:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frack.3.mshcdn.com%2Fmedia%2FZgkyMDEzLzA2LzAzL2IxL3A3Sk42akguMGVjNGYuZ2lmCnAJdGh1bWIJMTIwMHg5NjAwPg%2Fc2008119%2F386%2Fp7JN6jH.gif&hash=2092a98b861b9153eabb59c9db334994e18fd904)
What on earth is that clip from?
Looks odd
awesome.

It looks like some reality tv show
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 04, 2013, 08:46:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 04, 2013, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 04, 2013, 10:44:26 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frack.3.mshcdn.com%2Fmedia%2FZgkyMDEzLzA2LzAzL2IxL3A3Sk42akguMGVjNGYuZ2lmCnAJdGh1bWIJMTIwMHg5NjAwPg%2Fc2008119%2F386%2Fp7JN6jH.gif&hash=2092a98b861b9153eabb59c9db334994e18fd904)
What on earth is that clip from?
Looks odd
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-internet-vs-4chan (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-internet-vs-4chan)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 04, 2013, 09:11:40 PM
Survivor
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 04, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
I didn't care for the board game. It's cool in concept, but the gameplay was pretty unsatisfying. I think for me I just didn't like the lack of any random chance in battles. It seemed to be who has more men? Okay, you win. I think you could influence this with card plays a bit, but I love me some dice rolls.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 05, 2013, 03:03:27 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 04, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
I didn't care for the board game. It's cool in concept, but the gameplay was pretty unsatisfying. I think for me I just didn't like the lack of any random chance in battles. It seemed to be who has more men? Okay, you win. I think you could influence this with card plays a bit, but I love me some dice rolls.

its about diplomacy. Divide and conquer and that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 05, 2013, 09:20:06 AM
Good episode. I liked Dany's taking of Yunkai by the slave soldiers changing allegiances. She had planted that seed at the first meeting with the Yunkai noble by telling him (with his slaves present) how she would free the slaves, just as she had done before.

I was waiting for the Red Wedding and expected a lot of shock over that. People are looking for the good guys to win kind of thing but this story is so much larger and expansive. Soon enough things will turn even more, as readers of the book know.

I usually encourage people to read the books as that will help to understand the story better. But the show does a good job of telling the story and all the cast of characters and personalities involved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: frunk on June 05, 2013, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 04, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
I didn't care for the board game. It's cool in concept, but the gameplay was pretty unsatisfying. I think for me I just didn't like the lack of any random chance in battles. It seemed to be who has more men? Okay, you win. I think you could influence this with card plays a bit, but I love me some dice rolls.

I think there's plenty of surprises and unexpected wins or losses with the simultaneous action choice and card play that dice rolls would make a potentially unpredictable game even less certain.  Definitely play with at least the first expansion for the ports.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 05, 2013, 12:36:14 PM
The (major) board game is great.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 05, 2013, 02:52:11 PM
I think Bolton should have said "Tywin Lannister sends his regards" instead of "The Lannisters send their regards".

Would have been so much more personal and infuriating, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2013, 02:54:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 05, 2013, 02:52:11 PM
I think Bolton should have said "Tywin Lannister sends his regards" instead of "The Lannisters send their regards".

Would have been so much more personal and infuriating, I think.

In the book he said 'Jaime Lannister sends his regards' which I think is going to set up Jaime getting it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Legbiter on June 05, 2013, 04:24:12 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRYf27B7.png&hash=d108928f0f40ae5c5fd240b7d51a1f78bbd69390)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2013, 05:05:53 PM
?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2013, 05:10:56 PM
Oh. :D

:face:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 05, 2013, 05:15:53 PM
If the Red Wedding came as a shock to the TV viewer then the books did not translate well.  By that time in the Books the reader realizes that everything that can go terribly wrong will go terribly wrong with the exception of a few characters.  The Red Wedding was foreshadowed to death for at least four long chapters before it happened.  Readers who were caught be suprise just werent paying attention.

The sad thing is that the Fat Man keeps trying to "shock" the reader even up to book 5 but by that point even the most dim reader comes to expect it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 05, 2013, 05:23:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 05, 2013, 05:15:53 PM
If the Red Wedding came as a shock to the TV viewer then the books did not translate well.  By that time in the Books the reader realizes that everything that can go terribly wrong will go terribly wrong with the exception of a few characters.  The Red Wedding was foreshadowed to death for at least four long chapters before it happened.  Readers who were caught be suprise just werent paying attention.

The sad thing is that the Fat Man keeps trying to "shock" the reader even up to book 5 but by that point even the most dim reader comes to expect it.

I'm pretty sure I disagree with most of this. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 05, 2013, 05:26:06 PM
Speaking of the Fat Man, any rumours about his next book? When it'll be out, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 05, 2013, 05:35:22 PM
Quote from: Liep on June 05, 2013, 05:26:06 PM
Speaking of the Fat Man, any rumours about his next book? When it'll be out, etc.

He's stopped making predictions of when he'll be finished...

I sort of get the image that he is like Willy Messerschmidt sitting on the floor of his factory in late 1944 surrounded by partially finished aircraft crying because he can't get those widgets for those thingamybobs he needs to finish them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 05, 2013, 08:14:00 PM
That's a disturbing analogy.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 05, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 05, 2013, 08:14:00 PM
That's a disturbing analogy.

I read a description of Willly's mental breakdown some years ago and that is the image that comes to mind when I found myself unable to complete a task.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 06, 2013, 01:11:38 AM
Best episode of the series so far. 

To be honest, I never cared much for Robb, Catelyn or the Starks (though I liked Ned), so I don't mourn their passing as much as most people do. 

Though of course, the Freys need to be exterminated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2013, 05:50:10 AM
My favourite quote from comments to this episode:

QuoteOne does not simply warg into Hodor

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2013, 02:11:48 AM
Whatever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 08, 2013, 12:05:58 AM
The Red Wedding meets The Princess Bride.   :lmfao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U6AjgR7D3yg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2013, 12:10:58 AM
That was great.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2013, 09:38:55 AM
SO, we buckled and are letting the 13 year watch the show, with me running the remote. Fast forwarded over the Daenyrs rape scene.

He agreed that he saw more naked women even so in that hour than he has seen in his entire life. Considering he is a 13 year old boy with access to the internet, I don't believe him.

I've started re-watching all the episodes with the audio commentary on. It varies between really damn interesting, and mildly amusing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2013, 09:39:41 AM
Me and Habs have talked a bit about doing a card driven MP games ala Here I Stand but based on the Game of Thrones. I think that would simply amazing, if well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 08, 2013, 12:11:12 PM
Talk to him about rape.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 08, 2013, 12:40:11 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 08, 2013, 12:11:12 PM
Talk to him about rape.

Yes. Tell him it's only acceptable if the woman is asking for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 09, 2013, 03:40:18 PM
D&D said with regards to Talisa (as opposed to Jeyne) that when they materially change a character they just change the name. Reasoning that they will not be raping the books if they instead of taking an existing character and changing it they will remove an existing character and replacing it with a new one. This sort of explains why Jeyne Westernling isn't in the books and Talisa Maegi is.

Now, what does this mean for Yara Greyjoy (as opposed to Asha Greyjoy)? The putative reason for changing the name was to avoid confusion with Spearwife Osha.

Are they doing away with Victarion? or Euron? or Aeron (yes, I know we've already seen him)? Talisa was invented for the womb-stabbing and to end any confusion about Robb's heir. They are not exactly issues that bookreaders thought needed dealing with beforehand.

TBH, Asha doesn't have an ongoing activity from now til we are caught up. When she does appear she does so intermittantly but does really cool shit each time.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 09, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2013, 09:39:41 AM
Me and Habs have talked a bit about doing a card driven MP games ala Here I Stand but based on the Game of Thrones. I think that would simply amazing, if well done.

Do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 09, 2013, 03:51:02 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 09, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2013, 09:39:41 AM
Me and Habs have talked a bit about doing a card driven MP games ala Here I Stand but based on the Game of Thrones. I think that would simply amazing, if well done.

Do it.

Quote29 5 / Fat man gets fan mail
After yet another round of abusive fan-mail complaining to Martin about how he is taking too long to get the next book out he decides to kill another Stark. Remove highest ranking Stark from the Game.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2013, 04:00:26 PM
 :lol:

If they get down to the little redheaded weenie they're toast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 09, 2013, 09:34:37 PM
Awesome.

40 or so more weeks till the next one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 10, 2013, 10:50:43 AM
I lol'ed when the girls giggled after Podrick passed by.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 10:51:44 AM
Last week I was let down by the Languish hype.

This week I was underwhelmed by the ho-hum season-ender.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 10, 2013, 10:57:26 AM
I think they should have ended with Jon becoming head of the nights watch rather than the anti - climactic Dany bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 10, 2013, 11:05:18 AM
It was a pretty tame ending to the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2013, 11:15:31 AM
I think Asha Greyjoy is about to get shafted by D&D revisionism. This doesn't open up for any Kingsmoot or the Greyjoy brothers. Season 5 is gonna have some problems with a hard start having to introduce a whole bunch of new characters from dorne and pyke without the advantage of having a familiar face around to expedite their acclimatization.

I'm confused.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 11:53:53 AM
*You're* confused?

I can remember the names of about 10 characters.  How the hell do you think I feel?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 10, 2013, 12:02:38 PM
I found that bit with the 'sheep-shifting' adorable.  I'm glad they put that in to make Sansa's devastation more notable, as opposed to just her regular gloominess that she's been stuck in for the last two seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 10, 2013, 01:28:45 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 10, 2013, 10:57:26 AM
I think they should have ended with Jon becoming head of the nights watch rather than the anti - climactic Dany bit.

I agree, it was an okay episode and sets up season 4 fine, but the ending with Daenerys feelgoodyfreedomshitthatgoesnowhere... well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 10, 2013, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 11:53:53 AM
*You're* confused?

I can remember the names of about 10 characters.  How the hell do you think I feel?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net%2Fphoto%2F4485295_700b.jpg&hash=19b70c333ed71c4a87ff2572ed8a6047ee649d0c)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/943228_10151474838307807_121437886_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
Actually, I got Gareth from The Office as the one eyed guy from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Still doesn't solve my problem when Puff and crew are discussing the appearance of Wuldy and Miflow and Shamu in the next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 10, 2013, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
Actually, I got Gareth from The Office as the one eyed guy from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Still doesn't solve my problem when Puff and crew are discussing the appearance of Wuldy and Miflow and Shamu in the next season.

I like this post-show review if I missed something or got confused.

This one be the spoiler free version:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/mhysa-for-newbies,98349/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
Actually, I got Gareth from The Office as the one eyed guy from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Still doesn't solve my problem when Puff and crew are discussing the appearance of Wuldy and Miflow and Shamu in the next season.

You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2013, 01:53:47 PM
Does Frodo make it to Rivendell? NO DONT TELL ME
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 10, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
Actually, I got Gareth from The Office as the one eyed guy from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Still doesn't solve my problem when Puff and crew are discussing the appearance of Wuldy and Miflow and Shamu in the next season.

You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3. 
I read 'em all and still can't remember half their names.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 02:43:09 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3.

Lighten up bro.  I wasn't knocking you.  I was stating my own bewilderment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 10, 2013, 03:08:27 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 10, 2013, 01:29:27 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/943228_10151474838307807_121437886_n.jpg)

Doesn't know any of the character names, but can place ones from Skins and the British Office... Did Josquius make this?  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 10, 2013, 03:21:02 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM

You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3.

Never read them either. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 10, 2013, 03:21:32 PM
Quote from: katmai on June 10, 2013, 03:21:02 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM

You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3.

Never read them either. :)

Yeah but you have an excuse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 10, 2013, 03:31:01 PM
Katmai's illiteracy is not an excuse.  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 10, 2013, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 10:51:44 AM
Last week I was let down by the Languish hype.

This week I was underwhelmed by the ho-hum season-ender.  :(
Aren't the two of these the only episodes you've seen?  Aside from being a pretty foolish way to watch the series, you really can't expect to know the names of characters or why things are relevant to anything when you jump into it at the very end of the third season. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: frunk on June 10, 2013, 04:16:53 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3.

I started reading the them several years ago, couldn't finish the first book.  Martin's prose defeated me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2013, 04:34:50 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
Actually, I got Gareth from The Office as the one eyed guy from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Still doesn't solve my problem when Puff and crew are discussing the appearance of Wuldy and Miflow and Shamu in the next season.

You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3. 

I think you mean EU2. There are plenty of reasons to be on languish and not have played the latter. Just look at that map. :x
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 10, 2013, 04:35:11 PM
Quote from: frunk on June 10, 2013, 04:16:53 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3.

I started reading the them several years ago, couldn't finish the first book.  Martin's prose defeated me.

I just skim his endless descriptions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 10, 2013, 04:10:49 PM
Aren't the two of these the only episodes you've seen?

I think I've seen every episode so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 10, 2013, 05:03:22 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 08, 2013, 12:05:58 AM
The Red Wedding meets The Princess Bride.   :lmfao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U6AjgR7D3yg

Hitler finds out about the Red Wedding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKqF8lg_M7A
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 10, 2013, 06:41:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2013, 04:35:11 PM
Quote from: frunk on June 10, 2013, 04:16:53 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
You do realize that one way of not spoiling is to use obscure references to people and events. Besides the books have been out for years and how the hell can you consider yourself a languishite and not have read any of them by now. Thats like never having played EU3.

I started reading the them several years ago, couldn't finish the first book.  Martin's prose defeated me.

I just skim his endless descriptions.

That's getting into the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 10, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 10, 2013, 04:10:49 PM
Aren't the two of these the only episodes you've seen?

I think I've seen every episode so far.

I take that back.  I definitely missed the episode in which cripple boy and The Eyebrows of the Northern Wilds met up with the hallucination kid and his sister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 10, 2013, 08:58:55 PM
Mother and daughters without the grime and tears:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/544521_437982992961518_1683903477_n.jpg)

(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/563974_437982952961522_354887826_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 10, 2013, 10:29:40 PM
Arya's a pothead
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 11, 2013, 02:41:18 AM
It does seem likely Yara  is to have some nice fighty adventures to make things more exciting to watch but then she will die.
The kingsmoot will be largely skipped through, it wouldnt make good TV.


I noticed in the recent episode that Bran has shifted into a cart from Hodor's shoulders.
Guess this is an example of child actors growing too fast. :lol:
Surprised they skipped the magic gate under the wall. In the book that was a pretty awesome "Holy shit the wall really is magical" moment.


Quote
Doesn't know any of the character names, but can place ones from Skins and the British Office... Did Josquius make this?  ;)
Odd coincidence. Just yesterday I checked up who Sam's ladyfriend was, totally didn't recognise her at all, only clicked once I read her IMDB profile.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 03:13:06 AM
What happens if the fatman can't write fast enough?

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/2/

QuoteIf the production does reach a crux point — if the fifth or sixth season wraps, say, and there's no new book on the shelf, well ... you might then see some maneuvering that would impress even Tywin Lannister. Martin has told the showrunners his top-secret end-game plan for Ice and Fire, but wouldn't be thrilled with the TV series progressing into that territory before he published his books. "I don't think I'd be happy with that," the author says. And neither would the producers. "We still have our fingers crossed that George will get there," Weiss says. "That's what's best for us, it's what's best for the fans. We'll cross that bridge when we get there." Adds Benioff: "Ideally the books come out first."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 11, 2013, 04:45:58 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 03:13:06 AM
What happens if the fatman can't write fast enough?

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/2/

QuoteIf the production does reach a crux point — if the fifth or sixth season wraps, say, and there's no new book on the shelf, well ... you might then see some maneuvering that would impress even Tywin Lannister. Martin has told the showrunners his top-secret end-game plan for Ice and Fire, but wouldn't be thrilled with the TV series progressing into that territory before he published his books. "I don't think I'd be happy with that," the author says.

Then here's an idea:  sit down and finish writing the goddamn books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 11, 2013, 05:20:02 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 04:45:58 AM

Then here's an idea:  sit down and finish writing the goddamn books.

Pool, I'll put money down on the fat man not finishing the 6th book before the show runs out of material. Other choices, he'll finish both 6 and 7, he won't finish the 7th in time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 05:21:00 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2013, 05:20:02 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 04:45:58 AM

Then here's an idea:  sit down and finish writing the goddamn books.

Pool, I'll put money down on the fat man not finishing the 6th book before the show runs out of material. Other choices, he'll finish both 6 and 7, he won't finish the 7th in time.

Any odds on HBO hiring Brandon Sanderson for a undisclosed job for a substantial undisclosed fee?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 11, 2013, 06:01:51 AM
BtW, I thought the last episode was great.  Heavy on character development, which is one of the prime reasons ASOIAF is so interesting to begin with.

*However*, I still can't get into the Dany storyline.  Apart from her tedious self-righteousness, it just seems like she is a kind of modern shoe-horned into an otherwise pre-modern world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 06:18:47 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 06:01:51 AM
BtW, I thought the last episode was great.  Heavy on character development, which is one of the prime reasons ASOIAF is so interesting to begin with.

*However*, I still can't get into the Dany storyline.  Apart from her tedious self-righteousness, it just seems like she is a kind of modern shoe-horned into an otherwise pre-modern world.

Yup. I found Shae's part the most puzzling though, it was something that I don't think that book Shae would have done, they're becoming two very different characters and that changes things for the future of that plotline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 11, 2013, 06:23:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 06:18:47 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 06:01:51 AM
BtW, I thought the last episode was great.  Heavy on character development, which is one of the prime reasons ASOIAF is so interesting to begin with.

*However*, I still can't get into the Dany storyline.  Apart from her tedious self-righteousness, it just seems like she is a kind of modern shoe-horned into an otherwise pre-modern world.

Yup. I found Shae's part the most puzzling though, it was something that I don't think that book Shae would have done, they're becoming two very different characters and that changes things for the future of that plotline.

*Spoiler tag for people who read threads on a series for which the books have been written years ago but expect to find no discussion of said events in the thread*

Yeah, I hate the changes to Shae.  Her betrayal of Tyrion kind of highlighted his isolation from the world and his quest to find Tysha.  I guess it could still turn out that way in terms of character development (I'm guessing Tywin will have her killed), but still, I kind of liked the notion of Tyrion choking her with the Hands of Gold shortly before killing his "wherever whores go" dad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 07:05:31 AM
Psst, spoiler tags are useful. :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 11, 2013, 07:16:07 AM
Holy Spoilers Batman.


In other news, that's two episdoes in a row there were no boobs. Epic fail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 11, 2013, 07:26:29 AM
I quite enjoyed this episode - like a soft landing after a bumpy ride.  I think people would have flipped - even more than they have that is - had they included the last segment of the Red Wedding we saw yesterday - with Rob's... remains...  Other than that I find I'm enjoying Bran's segments much more in the show than in the books.  And anything with Daenerhys is good.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 11, 2013, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 07:05:31 AM
Psst, spoiler tags are useful. :p

Fixed.   ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 08:16:08 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 07:05:31 AM
Psst, spoiler tags are useful. :p

Fixed.   ;)

You know we have real spoiler tags in the forum, right?  :P

[spoiler]Like these![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 11, 2013, 08:19:40 AM
Didn't we have a GoT tv-thread, specifically to not expose anyone to the inevitable spoilers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 11, 2013, 08:23:24 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 06:23:56 AM
Yeah, I hate the changes to Shae.  Her betrayal of Tyrion kind of highlighted his isolation from the world and his quest to find Tysha.  I guess it could still turn out that way in terms of character development (I'm guessing Tywin will have her killed), but still, I kind of liked the notion of Tyrion choking her with the Hands of Gold shortly before killing his "wherever whores go" dad.

I'm fairly sure that will still happen, as a few episodes ago Tyrion gave Shae a rather prominent golden chain. :menace:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 11, 2013, 08:25:20 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2013, 08:19:40 AM
Didn't we have a GoT tv-thread, specifically to not expose anyone to the inevitable spoilers?

This is the GoT TV thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 11, 2013, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 05:21:00 AM

Any odds on HBO hiring Brandon Sanderson for a undisclosed job for a substantial undisclosed fee?

Bring on the allomancers, feruchemists and hemalurgists.   :P

Who knows what powers these dragons are gonna bring back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 10, 2013, 08:58:55 PM
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/563974_437982952961522_354887826_n.jpg)

Wow Harry the Heir is a lucky guy.  It is sorta trippy to see Arya all girlied up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
How old is Sophie Turner ?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 11, 2013, 10:58:11 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
How old is Sophie Turner ?

Google says 17
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 11, 2013, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on June 11, 2013, 06:01:51 AM
BtW, I thought the last episode was great.  Heavy on character development, which is one of the prime reasons ASOIAF is so interesting to begin with.

*However*, I still can't get into the Dany storyline.  Apart from her tedious self-righteousness, it just seems like she is a kind of modern shoe-horned into an otherwise pre-modern world.
I really love Dany story.  She has the best written part, imho, and it's often heavy in symbolism, like that last scene, with her newly freed people and her disciplined army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
How old is Sophie Turner ?

17
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
Good, boobies in season 6!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 11, 2013, 11:10:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
Good, boobies in season 6!

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
Good, boobies in season 6!

We won't see sansaboobs ever. I suspect we won't see many more boobs for the rest of the series. The show is getting so big that there is no longer any need for sexposition to get viewers. Like Sopranos I think they will showing gratuitous boobage once they had established a loyal viewership. We never saw meadow soprano's boobs, I don't think we will see any boobs from any character which started as a child. It would creep me out. Jamie-Lynn Sieglers glamour shots creeped me out. Seeing Sophie Turners or Maisie Willams' boobs, even once they are well legal,, will creep me out as well.

Any sexy boobage in the future will have to come from the dusky woman, the vipers paramour or a sand snake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 11:25:27 AM
:(

I hope we don't get any more sex scenes tho. Those things are booooooooring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2013, 01:02:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
It is sorta trippy to see Arya all girlied up.

She looks like Rachel Weisz.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 11, 2013, 04:05:18 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
Good, boobies in season 6!

We won't see sansaboobs ever. I suspect we won't see many more boobs for the rest of the series. The show is getting so big that there is no longer any need for sexposition to get viewers. Like Sopranos I think they will showing gratuitous boobage once they had established a loyal viewership. We never saw meadow soprano's boobs, I don't think we will see any boobs from any character which started as a child. It would creep me out. Jamie-Lynn Sieglers glamour shots creeped me out. Seeing Sophie Turners or Maisie Willams' boobs, even once they are well legal,, will creep me out as well.

Any sexy boobage in the future will have to come from the dusky woman, the vipers paramour or a sand snake.
Sansa Stark is still 14 in the show, IIRC, or maybe 15.  The time is kinda slow moving, so unless there's a flash forward in time, she'd still be considered an underage character (even if she's older than 18), so it would forbidden on US tv.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 11, 2013, 04:09:52 PM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2013, 08:19:40 AM
Didn't we have a GoT tv-thread, specifically to not expose anyone to the inevitable spoilers?

I started one a year ago, and nobody used it.  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 11, 2013, 04:11:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 01:02:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
It is sorta trippy to see Arya all girlied up.

She looks like Rachel Weisz.

That's who she reminded me of. It was bugging me since this morning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 04:20:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 11, 2013, 04:05:18 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 11, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
Good, boobies in season 6!

We won't see sansaboobs ever. I suspect we won't see many more boobs for the rest of the series. The show is getting so big that there is no longer any need for sexposition to get viewers. Like Sopranos I think they will showing gratuitous boobage once they had established a loyal viewership. We never saw meadow soprano's boobs, I don't think we will see any boobs from any character which started as a child. It would creep me out. Jamie-Lynn Sieglers glamour shots creeped me out. Seeing Sophie Turners or Maisie Willams' boobs, even once they are well legal,, will creep me out as well.

Any sexy boobage in the future will have to come from the dusky woman, the vipers paramour or a sand snake.
Sansa Stark is still 14 in the show, IIRC, or maybe 15.  The time is kinda slow moving, so unless there's a flash forward in time, she'd still be considered an underage character (even if she's older than 18), so it would forbidden on US tv.

You are right, it would be kiddie porn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 11, 2013, 04:23:57 PM
You sure?  I saw 30 seconds of Wild Things 3 the other night, it's basically single X porn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 05:00:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 11, 2013, 04:23:57 PM
You sure?  I saw 30 seconds of Wild Things 3 the other night, it's basically single X porn.

They made a Wild Things 2? sorry, they made a Wild Things 3?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Not surprising, they made at least 4 Poison Ivy movies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Not surprising, they made at least 4 Poison Ivy movies.

They made a Poison Ivy 1?

Missed that movie...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2013, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Not surprising, they made at least 4 Poison Ivy movies.

They made a Poison Ivy 1?

Missed that movie...

Not based on the Batman villain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:26:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Not surprising, they made at least 4 Poison Ivy movies.

They made a Poison Ivy 1?

Missed that movie...

Not based on the Batman villain.

You sure we're talking about the same movie? I didn't know booze and pills era Drew Barrymore was a Batman villain?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2013, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:26:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Not surprising, they made at least 4 Poison Ivy movies.

They made a Poison Ivy 1?

Missed that movie...

Not based on the Batman villain.

You sure we're talking about the same movie? I didn't know booze and pills era Drew Barrymore was a Batman villain?

You sure you didn't make a typo then when you asked about Poison Ivy 1?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 07:33:32 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:26:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 11, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Not surprising, they made at least 4 Poison Ivy movies.

They made a Poison Ivy 1?

Missed that movie...

Not based on the Batman villain.

You sure we're talking about the same movie? I didn't know booze and pills era Drew Barrymore was a Batman villain?

You sure you didn't make a typo then when you asked about Poison Ivy 1?

No, it was a clever reference to my post where I expressed my amazement that they made not only a Wild Things 2 but a Wild Things 3 as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 11, 2013, 07:37:08 PM
So were you familiar with the movie before or not?

At any rate, it's another thriller with erotic undertones that had several straight-to-video sequels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2013, 07:42:53 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 07:37:08 PM
So were you familiar with the movie before or not?

At any rate, it's another thriller with erotic undertones that had several straight-to-video sequels.

Despite really liking Drew Barrymore as an actress I never watched it. My relationship towards the PI original is equally intimate as my relationship towards the WT sequels that I didn't watch either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 12, 2013, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 11, 2013, 01:02:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 11, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
It is sorta trippy to see Arya all girlied up.

She looks like Rachel Weisz.

Ha, you must be blind.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.santabanta.com%2Ffull1%2FGlobal%2520Celebrities%28F%29%2FRachel%2520Weisz%2Frac15a.jpg&hash=4743fdea6eedd61f32eaa226c60db179d6476174)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Same eyebrows, same mouth, same nose, same hair...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2013, 03:48:34 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 12, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Same eyebrows, same mouth, same nose, same hair...

Same heart shaped face. Maisie just isn't a woman yet...


hmmm... wonder if they will ever show the Tower of Joy and if they should case Rachel Weisz as Lyanna?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Yeah, skull shape is identical.  Rachel has bigger lips.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
Yeah, skull shape is identical.  Rachel has bigger lips.

plus she has the same nose and eye colour as Lyanna's son.


Perhaps Richard Armitage as Rhaegar?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
Perhaps Richard Armitage as Rhaegar?

I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:33:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
Perhaps Richard Armitage as Rhaegar?

I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  :(

bookreader or unsullied?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:33:55 PM
bookreader or unsullied?

If those are the only two choices, unsullied. :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:36:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:33:55 PM
bookreader or unsullied?

If those are the only two choices, unsullied. :unsure:

Then I'm sorry, I cannot explain what I mean. Unless you want the big spoiler - that pretty much everybody has figured out already.

Edit: technically it is not a spoiler since it hasn't happened yet, but martin has pretty much admitted that it will happen. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 12, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
Perhaps Richard Armitage as Rhaegar?

I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  :(

Rhaegar is the dragon prince that the fat king killed to win his throne. He was Danaerys' older brother.

He is Sir Not Appearing In This Show as he died some years before the story starts.

As noted there is a favorite theory about him and Lyanna, Ned Stark's sister, who died around the same time.

It is said that Arya looks just like Lyanna did.

This show does not seem to be big on flashbacks so I doubt we will see Rhaegar or Lyanna.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 12, 2013, 05:03:00 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 12, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Same eyebrows, same mouth, same nose, same hair...

Not even close. Maisie Williams is very very average looking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 12, 2013, 05:10:35 PM
In many cases where there is a strong resemblance between two people, one is still clearly more attractive than the other. (Not gonna opine on whether that is the case here or not).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 12, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 12, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 12, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
Perhaps Richard Armitage as Rhaegar?

I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  :(

Rhaegar is the dragon prince that the fat king killed to win his throne. He was Danaerys' older brother.

He is Sir Not Appearing In This Show as he died some years before the story starts.

As noted there is a favorite theory about him and Lyanna, Ned Stark's sister, who died around the same time.

It is said that Arya looks just like Lyanna did.

This show does not seem to be big on flashbacks so I doubt we will see Rhaegar or Lyanna.
They really should do a season opener with a battle of the trident. :(
Or maybe as a Bran vision...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 12, 2013, 07:41:56 PM
On the show, characters talking about the distant past is probably very confusing to GoT viewers. Did the show creators ever get interviewed about why they do not incorporate flashback scenes?

I would have loved to see a young Robert Baratheon or Ned discovering Jaimie in the throne room.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 12, 2013, 07:50:15 PM
I guess there is too much potential for flashbacks. You have one or two then there is the temptation to turn the entire show into Lost.
Besides, people talking about their past lets them show off their acting skillz and is cheap to make.

That being said I don't think one nice big flashback at the beginning of a series would hurt things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 12, 2013, 09:05:22 PM
Wish they did without the super photoshop, but here is some Lady Brienne in the middle:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.immediate.co.uk%2Fassets%2F16-Group-Of-Thrones-Grp0804.jpg&hash=60fe0581bf9c95994c820b507f0ef11cad80f31e)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 14, 2013, 02:20:44 AM
Episode 8 was pretty cool.
That stupid sellsword does not look like in the book.
The 3 forked beard me not likes.

Watching Episode 9 now.
The Bran taking over Hodor was excellent.
The green fork is waaay wider than I thought from the books.
The Twins too small. Like keeps instead of the fortresses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 14, 2013, 02:34:25 AM
Haha, now I understand the jokes about Edmure Tully.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 16, 2013, 09:29:48 PM
I very much enjoy this CK2 AAR of Jon Snow later *spoilers*: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?681677-And-Now-My-Watch-is-Ended-A-Game-of-Thrones-Mod (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?681677-And-Now-My-Watch-is-Ended-A-Game-of-Thrones-Mod)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2013, 10:42:19 PM
Nice little one here:
GoT piano cosplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hplyu6JTJA8)

And one for Siegy:
Metal cover with vocals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBzbOlgodFE)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 02:07:56 PM
Last night I caught the episode wherein Love Actually Boy meets up with Cripple Boy and Eyebrow Lady.  Good episode, a lot of plot development.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 30, 2013, 05:14:58 PM
Eyebrow lady being her:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Osha

Cripple boys behing him:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Bran_Stark

But "Love actually boy", who the fuck is that??
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 05:19:08 PM
Check out the handy reference guide on page 288 default.

The kid who shows up in Cripple Boy's dreams and Yoda's him up on his warg powers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 30, 2013, 05:21:14 PM
Jojen Reed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 11, 2013, 12:56:14 PM
This is how the Iron Throne should look according to Martin:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.hngn.com%2Fdata%2Fimages%2Ffull%2F6986%2Fenhanced-buzz-27577-1373381526-40-jpg.jpg%3Fw%3D600&hash=14ac459caeaeb65f234f330c0aeae1a3f4bd4f97)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 11, 2013, 12:58:13 PM
From Martin:

""This Iron Throne [I imagine] is massive," Martin wrote on his blog last night. "Ugly. Asymmetric. It's a throne made by blacksmiths hammering together half-melted, broken, twisted swords, wrenched from the hands of dead men or yielded up by defeated foes... a symbol of conquest."

In the story of "Game of Thrones," the iron throne was forged from thousands of swords of Aegon "The Conqueror" Targaryen's fallen opponents, melted by down by dragon fire and melded together to create a cold, frightening and uncomfortable seat for the ruler of the fictional Seven Kingdoms that sits in the Red Keep.

"Yes, I know, that title ['The Real Iron Throne'] is a bit of an oxymoron," Martin wrote. "There is no real Iron Throne. It doesn't exist. I made it up. I said it was made of melted swords, but really, it was made of words, like all such fictional constructs.

Ah, but it's real to me. That's part of what it means to be a writer. If you don't know what I'm getting at there, go read my old short story, 'Portraits of His Children.' When I write about the Iron Throne, I SEE it in my head... and I try to describe it as best I can. Not being a blacksmith or an ironmonger, however, I hammer it together with words, striving to make all of you, my readers, see what I see."

He went on to say that HBO's version of the iron throne "is more real than [his] could ever be," and even though the set piece is not really made out of iron (nor is it uncomfortable to the actors, though it is meant to be in the story), the "real" iron throne he imagined looks more like artist Marc Simonetti's piece, depicting King Joffrey sitting on the terrifying chair, flanked by his guards.

"It's a rough, not a final version, so what you see in the book will be more polished," Martin wrote. "But Marc has come closer here to capturing the Iron Throne as I picture it than any other artist to tackle it. From now on, THIS will be the reference I give to every other artist tackling a throne room scene."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 25, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
Actress Indira Varma (:wub:) has been cast in season four. Varma will play Ellaria Sand on the show, the sexually adventurous paramour of a key new character, Prince Oberyn Martell "The Red Viper" (played by Pedro Pascal).

Since playing Niobe on HBO's Rome, Varma has had roles on Fox's Human Target along with UK dramas Silk and Hunted. Last year, the production added fellow Rome actor Ciarán Hinds.


http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/07/25/game-of-thrones-rome-actress/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on July 25, 2013, 02:55:39 PM
Here is deleted scene between Tywin and Pycelle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pSSz_qfTog
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on July 25, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 25, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
Actress Indira Varma (:wub:) has been cast in season four. Varma will play Ellaria Sand on the show, the sexually adventurous paramour of a key new character, Prince Oberyn Martell "The Red Viper" (played by Pedro Pascal).

Since playing Niobe on HBO's Rome, Varma has had roles on Fox's Human Target along with UK dramas Silk and Hunted. Last year, the production added fellow Rome actor Ciarán Hinds.

[spoiler]Oberyn Martell is a key character? Does that mean he is not immediately killed by the Mountain?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 26, 2013, 06:01:45 AM
Quote from: Maximus on July 25, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 25, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
Actress Indira Varma (:wub:) has been cast in season four. Varma will play Ellaria Sand on the show, the sexually adventurous paramour of a key new character, Prince Oberyn Martell "The Red Viper" (played by Pedro Pascal).

Since playing Niobe on HBO's Rome, Varma has had roles on Fox's Human Target along with UK dramas Silk and Hunted. Last year, the production added fellow Rome actor Ciarán Hinds.

[spoiler]Oberyn Martell is a key character? Does that mean he is not immediately killed by the Mountain?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I guess they're gonna set him up as a major character so people are surprised when things go wrong in the duel. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 26, 2013, 06:04:44 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 26, 2013, 06:01:45 AM
Quote from: Maximus on July 25, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 25, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
Actress Indira Varma (:wub:) has been cast in season four. Varma will play Ellaria Sand on the show, the sexually adventurous paramour of a key new character, Prince Oberyn Martell "The Red Viper" (played by Pedro Pascal).

Since playing Niobe on HBO's Rome, Varma has had roles on Fox's Human Target along with UK dramas Silk and Hunted. Last year, the production added fellow Rome actor Ciarán Hinds.

[spoiler]Oberyn Martell is a key character? Does that mean he is not immediately killed by the Mountain?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I guess they're gonna set him up as a major character so people are surprised when things go wrong in the duel. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]They killed mah niggah Oberyn![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 28, 2013, 06:51:39 PM
I'm confused, isn't Elaria Sand one of the Sand snakes, the daughters of oberyn?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 28, 2013, 07:12:18 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 28, 2013, 06:51:39 PMI'm confused, isn't Elaria Sand one of the Sand snakes, the daughters of oberyn?

No, she's Oberyn's lover and mother of the four youngest Sand snakes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on January 10, 2014, 07:06:38 PM
April 6.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on January 10, 2014, 07:15:10 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2014, 07:06:38 PM
April 6.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/

60 glorious minutes of Lena Dunham naked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on January 14, 2014, 04:06:54 PM
Direct link to Season 4 trailer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSg_gJkU7ko)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 17, 2014, 01:31:40 AM
Quote from: viper37 on January 14, 2014, 04:06:54 PM
Direct link to Season 4 trailer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSg_gJkU7ko)

Tahnks man, best TV show evar@

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on January 17, 2014, 01:36:55 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 10, 2014, 07:15:10 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2014, 07:06:38 PM
April 6.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/

60 glorious minutes of Lena Dunham naked.

Got nothing.
WTF is dat?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on January 17, 2014, 10:42:43 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 17, 2014, 01:36:55 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 10, 2014, 07:15:10 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2014, 07:06:38 PM
April 6.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/

60 glorious minutes of Lena Dunham naked.

Got nothing.
WTF is dat?

You don't wanna see that my friend. I stared into the Abyss and now I have no eyes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on January 17, 2014, 10:43:09 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 17, 2014, 01:36:55 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 10, 2014, 07:15:10 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2014, 07:06:38 PM
April 6.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/

60 glorious minutes of Lena Dunham naked.

Got nothing.
WTF is dat?



I think he's talking about another show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on February 12, 2014, 01:43:01 PM
http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/about/video/season-4-trailer.html#/game-of-thrones/about/video/season-4-a-foreshadowing.html/eNrjcmbO0CzLTEnNd8xLzKksyUx2zs8rSa0oUc-PSYEJBSSmp-ol5qYy5zMXsjGyMXIyMrJJJ5aW5BfkJFbalhSVpgIAXbkXOA==

Link looks sketchy, but a 15 minute preview/actor spots of season 4. Impressive how Joffrey looks immediately less punchable when off camera.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 12, 2014, 02:03:53 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 12, 2014, 01:43:01 PM
Link looks sketchy, but a 15 minute preview/actor spots of season 4. Impressive how Joffrey looks immediately less punchable when off camera.

actors eh :p

season  4 looks promising indeed
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on February 12, 2014, 02:52:15 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 12, 2014, 02:03:53 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 12, 2014, 01:43:01 PM
Link looks sketchy, but a 15 minute preview/actor spots of season 4. Impressive how Joffrey looks immediately less punchable when off camera.

actors eh :p

Well, duh. :P But until that point I thought it was just his face that looked punchable, now I know what goes into making him so easy to hate. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 30, 2014, 11:22:46 PM
The first 7 episode titles. Can't wait for #7! :w00t:
[spoiler]4.01 Two Swords
4.02 The Lion and the Rose
4.03 Breaker of Chains
4.04 Oathkeeper
4.05 First of His Name
4.06 The Laws of Gods and Men
4.07 Mockingbird[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on March 31, 2014, 07:51:20 AM
Quote from: Liep on February 12, 2014, 02:52:15 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 12, 2014, 02:03:53 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 12, 2014, 01:43:01 PM
Link looks sketchy, but a 15 minute preview/actor spots of season 4. Impressive how Joffrey looks immediately less punchable when off camera.

actors eh :p

Well, duh. :P But until that point I thought it was just his face that looked punchable, now I know what goes into making him so easy to hate. ;)

Yeah, excellent acting by the kid. He does a great job at portraying the book character, a nasty, cruel and spitefully dangerous little bastard, too full of himself. He still fears his grandfather though but will go against most anyone else like his mother and uncle Tyrion, at least to a point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 31, 2014, 02:14:45 PM
Learn Dothraki:
http://happyplace.someecards.com/30266/this-muzzy-commercial-parody-promises-to-teach-your-kids-to-speak-dothraki
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 02, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
My new favorite crackpot theory!  :lol:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104527-howland-reed-high-septon/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 03, 2014, 07:48:27 AM
Who's Howland Reed?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 03, 2014, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 03, 2014, 07:48:27 AM
Who's Howland Reed?

Ned Stark's bannerman and comrade in arms during Robert Baratheon's rebellion.  His kids have been hanging out with Bran since book 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 03, 2014, 09:32:52 AM
Alright. I never realise that from the show. Maybe they haven't mentioned the kids full name, yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 03, 2014, 09:48:30 AM
Quote on this page says that they mentioned he was the father of the kids.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Howland_Reed
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 03, 2014, 10:55:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2014, 09:48:30 AM
Quote on this page says that they mentioned he was the father of the kids.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Howland_Reed

One of my favorite conspiracy theories to entertain out there is that Jojen Reed is actually Howland Reed.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2014, 09:45:41 AM
My actual favorite conspiracy is my own... this one


QuoteRhaegar and Mance share the following attributes

Same age, same height, same body size, same interest in music, same interest in prophecy, same skill apparently unique skill set, same favourite colours and most people think they are dead. The main difference is hair color and eye color.

I am going to propose a narrative of how I think history unfolded showing how certain events in the book contribute to foreshadowing the obstacles to the R=M hypothesis, how these events tie together otherwise unrelated events in the books and how this weaves a considerable number of loose threads together to form a coherent whole.

The assumptions you need to make to have this narrative work are

1) That there is a prophecy which is know to the initiated.
2) That kinds of events can happen again.

Ok, the narrative is as follows.

Young Rhaegar, bookish and nerdy, reads up on his prophecy and finds something important. Personally I think this prophecy also explains Aerys' madness since it is quite possible that both were working to fulfil it at the time, leading (unwittingly) to Roberts Rebellion. Once he reads the prophecy he has a profound change of lifestyle, he decides to learn how to fight.

In apparent fulfilment of the prophecy he marries Elia of Dorne. Which would be the first marriage of a Targaryen in the line of succession to a non-Targaryen since Dorne was brought into the kingdom and before that since Aegon's Conquest. I think he did this in pursuit of the prophecy. He then corresponds with Maester Aemon at the wall thinking his son by Elia is the PWP. I think Aemon corrected his mis-understanding of the prophecy with books from his library.

Later at the tourney at Harrenhall Rhaegar fights with an unprecented ferocity and skill to become champion letting him bestow the title of queen of love and beauty on Lyanna, not his wife. Earlier in the tourney the Knight of the Laughing tree bests a few minor nobles and Rhaegars squire promises to uncover the secret identity. I think the squire uncovers the identity, tells Rhaegar who then realizes what the prophecies really mean. He then determines to win the tourney and woo Lyanna. Lyannas symbol of the blue flower which appears in the house of the undying where it breaks the wall is probably related to the prophecy.

Not being able to plausibly break the engagement Lyanna already had with Robert he kidnaps her. Meanwhile the mad king, in trying to fulfil his end of the prophecy seeks to revive dragons, by, if necessary burning all of kings landing with dragon eggs hoping to find a blood of the dragon in fleabottom or something. At this point Roberts Rebellion breaks out. This is a minor inconvenience for Rhaegar who is away at the Tower of Joy trying to fulfil a prophecy with Lyanna. This is why Aerys bungles the war and hires and fires Hands.

With Lyanna pregnant and the prophecy apparently being fulfilled, Rhaegar returns. He then departs to lead the army against the nuisance Robert telling Jamie that everything will be different, since now there is no need to burn the city to fulfil the prophecy. He leaves Jamie as hostage to Tywins loyalty, leave his 3 best white cloak friends at the TOJ with the PWP, takes the other 3 white cloaks to the Ruby ford where he is beaten by Robert.

Tyrion fights in a battle at almost the same location where he is knocked out, left for dead and still alive. I think the same thing happened to Rhaegar. Covered in mud his armour, now without the rubies left him looking like any other dead body. Only he was without his heraldry. The Hound allegedly floated down the river after his death where he was saved at the silent isle. I think this happened to Rhaegar too. He was badly injured and by the time he recovered he entered a new world with Robert on the throne, his family dead, Lyanna dead and apparently no hope of him fulfilling he prophecy. He then goes into hiding at the wall where his uncle aemon helps him hide his identity to keep him safe from Robert's wrath along with Jeor Mormont and Qorin Half Hand (and possibly others).

At this point he has a new, fake name, is hiding his identity behind a disguise, potentially a faceless man style diguise he might have learned about from his booklearning. He might also have travelled to Essos after leaving the Nights Watch. He then goes to fulfil the rest of the prophecy, or at least the bits he can contribute to the prophecy. Failing to find the horn of joramund (which sam finds at the fist of the first men), he tries to save the wildlings from the coming catastrophy by getting them across the wall. He does this because he fails to contact Mormont before the great ranging is destroyed at the fist. He then lets Jon keep his sword and protect his half brother possibly as a test of the prophecy.

An interesting consequence of this is that the assassination attempt on Bran may have been prophecy related. Brans paralyzation may be in the prophecies and given the importance of understanding prophecy burning the library might not just have been a diversion, it might have been an attempt to burn books with information on the prophecy, making the person who hired the assassin possibly an agent of the others or the evil god opposing Ryhllor.

Mance's trip to Winterfell during Roberts visit may have have many many more reasons. Including a visit to Lyannas Tomb which would have been unsealed for Roberts visit and a look at Jon Snow to confirm he was Lyannas son (by looking at his face) to reassure him that the prophecy was valid, possibly after hearing from Ben-Jen Stark that Jon looked like Lyanna.

Jon says in AFFC Ch.5 "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own". Knowing what we know about R+L=J this suddenly becomes relevant. Also, Mance takes on the name Able, an anagram of Bale, who famously stole the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and returned her with a son. Which, is amazing relevat if Jon is Lyannas son by Rhaegar and Rhaegar is Mance.

This all assumes that Rhaegar survived the battle like Tyrion, survived the river like The Hound,could change his appearance as Jaqen H'Gar and could have his death faked like Mance Rayder. That Martin's comment on how Rhaegar was cremated is misleading.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 04, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Seems unlikely, given the very public nature of Rhaegar's death, what with him being slain in front of about half the mustered manpower of Westeros.  And what would he have to gain by faking his death?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 04, 2014, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 04, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
And what would he have to gain by faking his death?

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 04, 2014, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 04, 2014, 10:54:55 AM
Seems unlikely, given the very public nature of Rhaegar's death, what with him being slain in front of about half the mustered manpower of Westeros.  And what would he have to gain by faking his death?

I'm saying he got his chest caved in at the ruby ford, he wakes up at the silent isle and is bedridden for months. By the time he wakes up he is "dead" his family is dead and a new king is on the throne with all the nobles in the land pledging fealty.  Staying dead is a good way to not get murdered in that position.

I'm surmising that at that point he realizes that there is nothing more he can do to realize the prophecy and he probably thinks lyanna and the babe are dead. Later when he has moved up to the wall, he defects to the wildlings to try and help the prophecy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 04, 2014, 05:55:46 PM
I have caved and subscribed to HBO
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 04, 2014, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2014, 05:55:46 PM
I have caved and subscribed to HBO

Canadian Subs of HBO do come much cheaper and with more stuff then it's US counterpart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 06, 2014, 09:04:57 PM
Not a terribly interesting season opener.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 06, 2014, 09:39:38 PM
You have to watch past the first 8.2 minutes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 06, 2014, 11:25:02 PM
My sister made a cake!  :lol:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FD8hCywJ.jpg&hash=674f33224d89ebab4c85b3dc5e0be15ec5f004e5) (http://imgur.com/D8hCywJ)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 07, 2014, 06:31:29 AM
It must be difficult to make a season opener on this, so many threads to start up. None of them got really interesting, but I can see the 2nd episode being good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 07, 2014, 12:09:30 PM
I liked it.  This may have been one of the few times reading the books was an advantage as you can see the set up for what is to come. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 07, 2014, 05:22:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 06, 2014, 09:39:38 PM
You have to watch past the first 8.2 minutes.

Yup. Didnt take too long for full female nudity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Why did they have to gay up Oberyn?

I hadn't really formed a mental image of the Dornishmen from the books, but i certainly didn't see them as Sinbad the Sailor with a Spanish accent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 07, 2014, 05:31:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Why did they have to gay up Oberyn?

I hadn't really formed a mental image of the Dornishmen from the books, but i certainly didn't see them as Sinbad the Sailor with a Spanish accent.
They needed a gay character to make the activists happy?

He seems broadly in accord with the mental picture I had of Dorne.  The character is supposed to be this free-ranging adventurer from an exotic, arid country.  Spanish is exotic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 05:31:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Why did they have to gay up Oberyn?

I hadn't really formed a mental image of the Dornishmen from the books, but i certainly didn't see them as Sinbad the Sailor with a Spanish accent.

Well they are supposed to be like the Moors. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Why did they have to gay up Oberyn?

I hadn't really formed a mental image of the Dornishmen from the books, but i certainly didn't see them as Sinbad the Sailor with a Spanish accent.
Oberyn and a lot of the Dornishmen are bisexual.  The sexual morality is just different down there.  The Rhonyar are weird. 

I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian

Yeah because when I think about sand and desert people I immediately think of the Basques or the Welsh.  Dude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 07, 2014, 06:26:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian

Yeah because when I think about sand and desert people I immediately think of the Basques or the Welsh.  Dude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.

Some might say completely irrational.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 07, 2014, 07:32:15 PM
Obvious first episode, lots of setup.

The scene with Arya murdering Polliver though...that was excellent. Just...chilling.


"Something wrong with your leg boy?"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 07, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 07, 2014, 07:32:15 PM
The scene with Arya murdering Polliver though...that was excellent. Just...chilling.


"Something wrong with your leg boy?"

Agreed
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 07, 2014, 07:39:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian

Yeah because when I think about sand and desert people I immediately think of the Basques or the Welsh.  Dude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.

CK2 makes a big point of calling out the basques as the one culture to allow women to inherit on same basis as men.

Of course, whether that's historically accurate, I've no idea. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 07, 2014, 08:27:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Why did they have to gay up Oberyn?

:huh:  He's pretty clearly bisexual in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 08:41:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian

Yeah because when I think about sand and desert people I immediately think of the Basques or the Welsh. 

They are the weird peninsular people with bows and spears who are dark and were only with difficulty integrated in to the Westerosi mainstream and have substantially greater rights for women.  They also maintain some weird pagany religious practices, and are the classic "other" of Westerosi society.

Welsh and Basque.   

EDIT: In the case of Dorne, yes, Wales was definitely an influence, for all the reasons you cite. But there's also some distinctly unWelsh elements down there. South of the wall of mountains you have a hot, dry country more like Spain or Palestine than the cool green valleys of Wales, with most of the settlements along the seacoast and in few great river basins. And you also have the flavor given the culture by the great Rhoynar influx led by Nymeria. I suppose the closest real life equivilent to that would be the Moorish influence in parts of Spain. So you could say Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in. Or you could just say it's Dorne.... (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical_Influences_for_Dorne/)

QuoteDude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.
I prefer "History Hipster" to nerd, thank you very much. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 08:42:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2014, 07:39:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian

Yeah because when I think about sand and desert people I immediately think of the Basques or the Welsh.  Dude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.

CK2 makes a big point of calling out the basques as the one culture to allow women to inherit on same basis as men.

Of course, whether that's historically accurate, I've no idea. :D
It's a simplification.  Basque inheritence laws were all kinds of weird.  There was a tribal structure and an avoidance of private property and feudalism that was pretty unique to the Basque country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baserri
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 07, 2014, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 05:49:36 PM
I think they are as much Basque or Welsh as anything.  Absolute cognatic primogeniture is a Basque thing the Rhonyar practice, and the light armor with throwing spear or short sword sounds vaguely Cantabrian

Yeah because when I think about sand and desert people I immediately think of the Basques or the Welsh.  Dude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.
These days you just need to have played CK2
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 11:45:40 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 08:41:05 PM
They are the weird peninsular people with bows and spears who are dark and were only with difficulty integrated in to the Westerosi mainstream and have substantially greater rights for women.  They also maintain some weird pagany religious practices, and are the classic "other" of Westerosi society.

Welsh and Basque.   

EDIT: In the case of Dorne, yes, Wales was definitely an influence, for all the reasons you cite. But there's also some distinctly unWelsh elements down there. South of the wall of mountains you have a hot, dry country more like Spain or Palestine than the cool green valleys of Wales, with most of the settlements along the seacoast and in few great river basins. And you also have the flavor given the culture by the great Rhoynar influx led by Nymeria. I suppose the closest real life equivilent to that would be the Moorish influence in parts of Spain. So you could say Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in. Or you could just say it's Dorne.... (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Historical_Influences_for_Dorne/)

QuoteDude GRRM is loosely inspired by Medieval history but you have to be a pretty big nerd to know the succession traditions of the Basques.
I prefer "History Hipster" to nerd, thank you very much. 

Um he said Moorish with some Levantine stuff.  Hardly Basque.  Though ok on the Welsh stuff.  And the First Men are just as "other".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 11:46:45 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 07, 2014, 11:12:57 PM
These days you just need to have played CK2

True but that was a tall order in 1996 :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 11:55:59 PM
QuoteUm he said Moorish with some Levantine stuff.  Hardly Basque.  Though ok on the Welsh stuff.  And the First Men are just as "other".
Basque might be a bit of a stretch, admittedly.  There's nothing distinctly Moorish about the Dornish way of fighting, and their hillyness, distinct otherness and distinct sexual practices make them seem distinctly un-Moorish to me. 

I think you are wrong there.  Westerosi culture and people have a very strong First Men component throughout Westeros, including in Dorne.  Donrishmen are weird Essos people, and did not have the benefit of conquering and colonizing almost all of Westeros.  They're the ultimate other, apart from maybe the Wildlings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 07, 2014, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 11:55:59 PM
QuoteUm he said Moorish with some Levantine stuff.  Hardly Basque.  Though ok on the Welsh stuff.  And the First Men are just as "other".
Basque might be a bit of a stretch, admittedly.  There's nothing distinctly Moorish about the Dornish way of fighting, and their hillyness, distinct otherness and distinct sexual practices make them seem distinctly un-Moorish to me. 

Iberia is extremely hilly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 07, 2014, 11:59:38 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldofmaps.net%2Fuploads%2Fpics%2Ftopographie-spanien.jpg&hash=a23cb57c5128d44201211c09b683d68d7d9e4a75)
Not the Medieval Moorish bits. 

EDIT: With the obvious exception of the relatively late, non-violent conquest of what became the Crown of Aragon. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 08, 2014, 12:08:23 AM
Actually kind of like Dorne the Iberian Highlands were centers of resistance to central Moorish authority.  IIRC there was a very substantial mixed Mozarab/Muladi rebellion against the Ummayad Caliph as far south as Malaga centuries after the Moorish conquest.  Also, the almogavar, a kind of highland frontiersman light infantry, was pretty instrumental in continuously pushing the line with the Taifas south. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 08, 2014, 12:08:56 AM
 :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 08, 2014, 12:09:31 AM
Hey Ed and PDH, I'm drunk!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 12:17:05 AM
Everything yellow or brown on that map counts as hilly or mountanious. That's most of the map.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2014, 05:46:05 AM
I'm not really convinced yet by the new actor portraying Daario Naharis, and the cannibalism angle for the Thenns seems like a cheap gimmick. Besides that, very promising first episode, and props for finding a good actor to play Oberyn Martell, as he seems to nail the intended charismatic/creepy Íñigo Montoya vibe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 08, 2014, 05:51:14 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 08, 2014, 12:09:31 AM
Hey Ed and PDH, I'm drunk!

Good for you!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 08, 2014, 06:33:08 AM
Seeing Araya actually kill was quite disturbing. They make Maisie look so young.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 08, 2014, 06:56:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 08, 2014, 06:33:08 AM
Seeing Araya actually kill was quite disturbing. They make Maisie look so young.

Maisie Williams is a young looking 16. Sophie Turner is an older looking 18. Those two are really young. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 07:13:25 AM
No love for my sister's cake? Haters, the lot of you!  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 08, 2014, 07:14:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 07:13:25 AM
No love for my sister's cake? Haters, the lot of you!  :mad:

I loved your sisters cake.  :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 08, 2014, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 07:13:25 AM
No love for my sister's cake? Haters, the lot of you!  :mad:
She wrote on a dark-coloured cake in dark-coloured icing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 08, 2014, 08:34:08 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 07:13:25 AM
No love for my sister's cake? Haters, the lot of you!  :mad:

This is not instagram.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 08, 2014, 08:34:14 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 08, 2014, 06:56:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 08, 2014, 06:33:08 AM
Seeing Araya actually kill was quite disturbing. They make Maisie look so young.
Maisie Williams is a young looking 16. Sophie Turner is an older looking 18. Those two are really young.
That said, my wife mentioned that they were having to work hard costuming to maintain a similar look for Arya, on account of the actress starting to show some curves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 08, 2014, 08:36:37 AM
:perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2014, 10:25:02 AM
Unless Maisie Williams undergoes a late growth spur I don't really think she's going to be so curvaceous that the show will have problems with Arya's depiction. She's already 16 and still looks appropriately tomboyish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 08, 2014, 11:14:03 AM
The problem I have with Oberyn is whether or not (probably not) they will give the other Dornish a similar acccent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2014, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2014, 11:14:03 AM
The problem I have with Oberyn is whether or not (probably not) they will give the other Dornish a similar acccent.

Both the Dornishman Tyrion talked to when the retinue arrived at King's Landing and Oberyn's paramour had a weird accent, although I didn't listen enough to it to see if it was consistent with Oberyn's own.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2014, 11:26:12 AM
Were they Dornishmen boys or Dornishmen girls?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 08, 2014, 11:29:23 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2014, 11:26:12 AM
Were they Dornishmen boys or Dornishmen girls?

Ellaria Sand, Oberyn's paramour, is Dornish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 11:33:11 AM
Funny, she doesn't look Dornish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 08, 2014, 12:41:02 PM
Some of my best friends are Dornish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2014, 06:46:23 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 11:33:11 AM
Funny, she doesn't look Dornish.

Well apparently these are the Spanish Dornish, they can look a little different.
I think she could pass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 08:43:05 PM
Record Ratings! :w00t:

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/04/game-of-thrones-season-4-premieres-to-record-ratings/
QuoteReturning to an initial viewing of 6.6 million, and ending the night at 8.2 million after two replays, Two Swords marks HBO's biggest episode of television since The Sopranos' series finale in 2007.


Renewed for seasons 5 & 6! :w00t:
http://winteriscoming.net/2014/04/game-of-thrones-renewed-for-seasons-five-and-six/
QuoteHBO has renewed GAME OF THRONES for a fifth and sixth season, it was announced today by Michael Lombardo, president, HBO Programming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 08, 2014, 09:35:28 PM
I wonder how many seasons there are going to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 08, 2014, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 08, 2014, 09:35:28 PM
I wonder how many seasons there are going to be.

8 or 9 I would venture.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
They've said eight I believe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 08, 2014, 09:42:08 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
They've said eight I believe.

Eight eh?  The final victory of the Griffon will come sooner than I thought. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 09:44:18 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
They've said eight I believe.

Eight?  I've only seen mention of them committing to seven.  Where did you hear 8?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 08, 2014, 09:46:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 09:44:18 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
They've said eight I believe.

Eight?  I've only seen mention of them committing to seven.  Where did you hear 8?

Well let's see they are going to finish book three and do a bit of book for this season.  I figure season 5 and six to finish books four and five.  Then at least two seasons for the final two...but since they are going to be massive doorstops if ever written I figure three.  How could it be seven?  Unless one is a twenty episode season or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 10:14:03 PM
Your reasoning, while devoid of commas and something I agree with, doesn't answer my question.  I did, however, find an old source that says they want eight.  I still think that would be too few.  Nine would likely suffice.

http://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-final-season-3-8/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 08, 2014, 10:15:16 PM
I don't do commas.   :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 08, 2014, 10:17:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 10:14:03 PM
Your reasoning, while devoid of commas and something I agree with, doesn't answer my question.  I did, however, find an old source that says they want eight.  I still think that would be too few.  Nine would likely suffice.

http://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-final-season-3-8/

From EW back in march.

QuoteThe seven season goal-line has been floated in the media before, but the writer-producers of the acclaimed fantasy hit series says they're firmer than before that three more seasons sounds about right.

"I would say it's the goal we've had from the beginning," Benioff says. "It was our unstated goal, because to start on a show and say your goal is seven seasons is the height of lunacy. Once we got to the point where we felt like we're going to be able to tell this tale to its conclusion, that became [an even clearer] goal. Seven gods, seven kingdoms, seven seasons. It feels right to us."

Seven sounds okay to HBO, as well. Or perhaps eight. "I'm expecting to be sitting down with Dan and David to talk season 5 and we'll talk about how things are looking," says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. "We're all very mindful that they're having conversations all the time with [author George R.R. Martin]. I think they do feel bullish enough that there's enough story to deliver through season 7. I hate to sound greedy, but our longest shows have gone 7 or 8 seasons, so seven is a nice long run for us."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 11:17:21 PM
That's the commentary I was referring to when I made my first post questioning Tim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 08, 2014, 11:18:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 08, 2014, 11:17:21 PM
That's the commentary I was referring to when I made my first post questioning Tim.

Don't confuse me with your facts Habbu!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 09, 2014, 06:16:22 AM
Back in season 1, they were speculating 20 seasons.

Assholes are backing down once again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 06:54:07 AM
I think that planning for seven seasons is about right.  They really should remain independent of the number of books, because in a proper publishing atmosphere a lot of what makes it into print in the books would be edited out.  Pacing is the single most important attribute of a book (or series of books) and TV shows (or series of TV shows), and Martin has gone from a master of pacing to a tyro of pacing.  More than eight seasons is likely to be boring.  Writers and producers start to burn out after about six seasons.  Stargate SG-1 is an excellent example of a show that went on too long. Six good seasons, a coupla okay ones, and then the descent into crap.

At some point, probably after this season, HBO needs to divorce their story from Martin's and start to work towards their own ending.  They can, and should, include those slices of Martin that are relevant and exciting, but should let him work towards his own ending at hos own pace.  By the end of season 4, they will have filmed probably 80% of the JRRM stuff worth filming in the whole series (including the stuff he plans to write).  HBO doesn't need him any more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 09, 2014, 07:05:09 AM
Yes, I'm very curious about how the show will diverge.
So far they've remained quite amazingly close to the books, I've never seen something closer, but there's no way forward like that...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 06:54:07 AM
At some point, probably after this season, HBO needs to divorce their story from Martin's and start to work towards their own ending.  They can, and should, include those slices of Martin that are relevant and exciting, but should let him work towards his own ending at hos own pace.  By the end of season 4, they will have filmed probably 80% of the JRRM stuff worth filming in the whole series (including the stuff he plans to write).  HBO doesn't need him any more.

Agreed.  I would like to see them do what was done with Walking Dead.  Use the written material as background and go their own way.  Martin's source material in the last two books are largely unuseable without significant editing in any event.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:36:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 06:54:07 AM
At some point, probably after this season, HBO needs to divorce their story from Martin's and start to work towards their own ending.  They can, and should, include those slices of Martin that are relevant and exciting, but should let him work towards his own ending at hos own pace.  By the end of season 4, they will have filmed probably 80% of the JRRM stuff worth filming in the whole series (including the stuff he plans to write).  HBO doesn't need him any more.

Pretty sure Martin has a say in the content and did not fully sign away total creative control to HBO.  I mean heck he writes an episode a season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 06:54:07 AM

Agreed.

Woah.  That just happened.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 09, 2014, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 06:54:07 AM

Agreed.

Woah.  That just happened.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 09, 2014, 05:46:48 PM
D&D and Martin have use the metaphor of a road trip for how Martin has laid out the story. He knows where he is going he just doesn't have all the details worked out. Considering how many details get left out of the story compared to the books in the show I don't think it will be a problem for the show to lap the books. It wasn't a problem when the books spoiled the show, the converse shouldn't be an issue.

Remember the show completely skipped Ned's flashbacks to the Tower of Joy, in fact almost EVERY SINGLE hint that R+L=J from the books has been erased in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 06:06:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 05:36:42 PM
Pretty sure Martin has a say in the content and did not fully sign away total creative control to HBO.  I mean heck he writes an episode a season.

And I'm pretty sure that HBO has an arrangement with him whereby they can continue the story after they finish with what has appeared in the book.  And I am pretty sure that he has an agreement with HBO that they won't simply tell the same story he plans to tell in the books, thus undermining the sales of the books.  So, it is in everyone's interests for HBO to tell a story that diverges from his plans at some point.  They have already left out a lot, and will be leaving out a whole lot more as they move into the territory of the more poorly-written (and even-more-poorly-edited) later books.

Martin has gone on the record as having told HBO to wait after they reach the end of the current books, and just film the other stories he has written that are set in Westeros.  And HBO has gone on the record as saying, basically, "you are nuts; the actors are not getting any younger and we need to wrap this up while they are still credible as the characters they play."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 09, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
I find CC's been more agreeable lately. Maybe it's the B.C. weather, I dunno.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 07:34:36 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 09, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
I find CC's been more agreeable lately. Maybe it's the B.C. weather, I dunno.

I had a nice Port last night.  I shall revert to my disagreeable self shortly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 09, 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 09, 2014, 07:34:36 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 09, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
I find CC's been more agreeable lately. Maybe it's the B.C. weather, I dunno.

I had a nice Port last night.  I shall revert to my disagreeable self shortly.
Did you have any port in a storm?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 09, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
BarristerBoy alert!

http://io9.com/a-fantastically-detailed-geological-history-for-game-of-1561092800
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--F3Wy0pph--%2Fc_fit%2Cfl_progressive%2Cw_636%2F671262183517888324.jpg&hash=ba5f6838b18e65e33f0b0bb4b328f11d3254a8bc)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2014, 10:15:28 PM
Some Geologist was really bored at work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 10, 2014, 01:23:24 AM
Westeros needs more glacial lakes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 10, 2014, 03:00:41 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 10, 2014, 01:23:24 AM
Westeros needs more glacial lakes.

Well, if you Want Glacial Lakes, Iceland is the place to film them... good thing they like filming there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2014, 07:31:36 AM
His map is wrong. Skaagos and Ibin IIRC (yes, I could just check wiki, but screw you) should be islands in the north sea.

Quote
Remember the show completely skipped Ned's flashbacks to the Tower of Joy, in fact almost EVERY SINGLE hint that R+L=J from the books has been erased in the show.
Yeah, if we ignore the books and take the TV show as a single entity...then you've Ned promising to tell Jon all about his past then the plotline is promptly dropped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2014, 07:39:32 AM
I'm pretty sure they're going to use Bran as a flashback machine when he gets to the Wierwood tree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2014, 09:06:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2014, 07:39:32 AM
I'm pretty sure they're going to use Bran as a flashback machine when he gets to the Wierwood tree.
Nice idea, here's to hoping. As I've said before it always annoyed me how many awesome flashback chances they passed up in the first series, one time in particular the camera zoomed in on Ned and you heard the sound of swords clashing but...no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 10, 2014, 09:26:47 AM
IIRC at some point the showrunners said that they would not to use flashbacks in the show. They shot some for the first season but then decided against using them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2014, 09:38:31 AM
They got to do something with Bran. What else is there?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 10, 2014, 09:41:35 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2014, 09:38:31 AM
They got to do something with Bran.

No they don't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Rasputin on April 10, 2014, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 07, 2014, 05:31:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Why did they have to gay up Oberyn?

I hadn't really formed a mental image of the Dornishmen from the books, but i certainly didn't see them as Sinbad the Sailor with a Spanish accent.
They needed a gay character to make the activists happy?

...

SPOILER ALERT

[spoiler]Boy I wonder what marty will say, when they kill off another gay character?[spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 10, 2014, 10:33:58 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2014, 09:38:31 AM
They got to do something with Bran. What else is there?

There is Bran's role in defeating the White Walkers.  That's enough.  He won't be a major story focus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 10, 2014, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Rasputin on April 10, 2014, 09:46:15 AM
SPOILER ALERT

[spoiler]Boy I wonder what marty will say, when they kill off another gay character?[spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

You'll probably need to friend him on Facebook or something to find out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 10, 2014, 12:47:11 PM
Game of Goats : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6tKZ-cg4RI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 10, 2014, 12:49:05 PM
Must be the Aussie version of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 11, 2014, 09:37:13 AM
KFC GoT ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJCBRepFi2g
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 14, 2014, 06:29:25 AM
Nothing on the Purple Wedding?

I thought it was a glorious episode with Gleeson and Dinklage taking the acting of this show to new extremes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 06:42:32 AM
Watching Geoffrey die and enjoying it was the closest thing I came to being psychopath.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 08:07:03 AM
Great episode. Very strong start for the season so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 14, 2014, 08:11:55 AM
I am now completely convinced the QoT was responsible, before this I was reasonably certain, now I am convinced.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 08:22:44 AM
Better episode than the opener.

I was watching for the [spoiler]involvement of Sansa's hairnet in Joffrey's death[/spoiler], but they seem to have left it out of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 08:41:07 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 08:22:44 AM
Better episode than the opener.

I was watching for the [spoiler]involvement of Sansa's hairnet in Joffrey's death[/spoiler], but they seem to have left it out of the show.

Sansa was given a necklace in the show, and if you watch closely you can see it being involved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 14, 2014, 09:38:24 AM
The Hairnet was replaced by a necklace. The QoT fidgets with the necklace.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fskywarpgold.com%2Fimg%2FQoT_stone.png&hash=53b56d53f66ba6df17ccb04e51dd6d20881ad8e5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 09:53:17 AM
QoT?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2014, 09:53:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 09:53:17 AM
QoT?

Queen of Thorns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
Hmmm.  Different than the book.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 14, 2014, 10:01:47 AM
What is?  The switch to a necklace isn't that big a deal, but the same people are involved...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 10:04:15 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 14, 2014, 10:01:47 AM
What is?  The switch to a necklace isn't that big a deal, but the same people are involved...

I thought in the book [spoiler]Littlefinger arranged it through the drunk fool and one of the Kettlebacks[/spoiler].  I don't remember the old hag having a role.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2014, 10:08:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2014, 10:04:15 AM
I thought in the book [spoiler]Littlefinger arranged it through the drunk fool and one of the Kettlebacks[/spoiler].  I don't remember the old hag having a role.

You remember wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 14, 2014, 11:33:14 AM
Funny, I remember the same about Littlefinger, him taking credit for this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 11:39:39 AM
He planned it, but the QoT did the actual deed. I'm sure he'll pop up in the next episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 14, 2014, 11:44:23 AM
Ah, LF. The real power in Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 14, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2014, 11:33:14 AM
Funny, I remember the same about Littlefinger, him taking credit for this.
[spoiler]They were in on it together.  Baelish provided the poison and smuggled it in (on Sansa), while Olenna did the actual poisoning.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 12:35:56 PM
Yeah, the who done it part has just started.  I hope they do a good job with the how and who in the coming episodes. It is a critical part of the Imp's story line.  I expect great things. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 12:49:57 PM
That didn't take long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2bH19KTBZk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 12:58:38 PM
Incidentally, I totally failed to associate the new kid they were showing in this episode with Tommen. I kept wondering who the hell this was... At least with Daario I knew of the recast beforehand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 14, 2014, 01:13:48 PM
I was waiting for this to happen to , the nasty and cruel King Joffrey.

The kid playing Joffrey did an outstanding job with the role!   :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 02:00:49 PM
Incidentally, he's quitting acting to study now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 02:01:16 PM
Quote from: KRonn on April 14, 2014, 01:13:48 PM
I was waiting for this to happen to , the nasty and cruel King Joffrey.

The kid playing Joffrey did an outstanding job with the role!   :showoff:

Apparently, he wants to quit acting now. But, yeah, he was rather convincingly cruel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2014, 04:18:31 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 02:00:49 PM
Incidentally, he's quitting acting to study now.

Heh wow is he going to regret this decision.  Ah well.  Glad he stuck it out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on April 14, 2014, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2014, 04:18:31 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 14, 2014, 02:00:49 PM
Incidentally, he's quitting acting to study now.

Heh wow is he going to regret this decision.  Ah well.  Glad he stuck it out.

I think he may have decided to quit after being assaulted in the street by people who hate him as much as Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 04:32:05 PM
He was cast very well for the part.  But I am not sure how many more roles he could get.  Probably a good call to pursue other opportunities and work himself up to CEO of a major multinational where he could put all the experience of people hating him to good use.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2014, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2014, 04:29:25 PM
I think he may have decided to quit after being assaulted in the street by people who hate him as much as Joffrey.

I have my doubts.  He is actually likeable when not acting as Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 04:33:01 PM
Some site reported that he just didn't find acting "fun" anymore. Star as an evil and cruel boy king with millions of nerds with various social impediments and mental health problems watching, and you would want to become a student or just about anything that makes you less of an attraction to those.
Poor lad. Destroyed by one part.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 14, 2014, 05:06:24 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 04:33:01 PM
Some site reported that he just didn't find acting "fun" anymore. Star as an evil and cruel boy king with millions of nerds with various social impediments and mental health problems watching, and you would want to become a student or just about anything that makes you less of an attraction to those.
Poor lad. Destroyed by one part.
What are you talking about?  Everyone watches GoT, not just nerds. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
Yes, people are watching it. The nerds are taking it seriously.
People care about stuff, you make it your single subject, youth.
How's your Byzantium boner nowadays?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
Jack Gleeson will get more roles.  He more than held his own in a powerful cast with a difficult role.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 14, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
Yes, people are watching it. The nerds are taking it seriously.
People care about stuff, you make it your single subject, youth.
How's your Byzantium boner nowadays?

It was more of a Russian boner most recently, I don't know what he has switched to. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 05:51:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 14, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
Yes, people are watching it. The nerds are taking it seriously.
People care about stuff, you make it your single subject, youth.
How's your Byzantium boner nowadays?

It was more of a Russian boner most recently, I don't know what he has switched to. :D

Apparently; Zoroastrianism and other obscure religions. You've got to love Spellus. Always on the side of something. Preferably something that most people don't give a toss about.
Someone should hook him up with an Armenian girl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 05:53:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
Jack Gleeson will get more roles.  He more than held his own in a powerful cast with a difficult role.

Why do you think it was difficult?   He was asked to play the part of a spoiled brat.  He did that very well but it was a one dimensional character.  There was no requirement for him to show a range of emotion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 14, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 05:53:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
Jack Gleeson will get more roles.  He more than held his own in a powerful cast with a difficult role.

Why do you think it was difficult?   He was asked to play the part of a spoiled brat.  He did that very well but it was a one dimensional character.  There was no requirement for him to show a range of emotion.

Going from spoiled to psychopathic to cruel to defeated (by sometimes by Dance and sometimes Dinklage) back to spoiled is a range.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 06:23:36 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 14, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 05:53:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
Jack Gleeson will get more roles.  He more than held his own in a powerful cast with a difficult role.

Why do you think it was difficult?   He was asked to play the part of a spoiled brat.  He did that very well but it was a one dimensional character.  There was no requirement for him to show a range of emotion.

Going from spoiled to psychopathic to cruel to defeated (by sometimes by Dance and sometimes Dinklage) back to spoiled is a range.

Being a psychopath was always part of the character.  It was what made him so charming...  But I  take your point about the scenes where he had to act hurt and even humiliated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on April 14, 2014, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 14, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
Yes, people are watching it. The nerds are taking it seriously.
People care about stuff, you make it your single subject, youth.
How's your Byzantium boner nowadays?

It was more of a Russian boner most recently, I don't know what he has switched to. :D
My Byzantine and Russian boners are nonexclusive. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on April 14, 2014, 08:20:03 PM
Some okay dialogue, but mostly boring episode. Some disjointed scene insertions include Bran at the tree, and the Shae drama is just wooden.


Very romantic here though: :wub:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F04%2Fwedding.jpg&hash=a692d560d1913a879478f4b6fd605d0e724dc05d)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 14, 2014, 09:11:25 PM
Jack Gleeson will be an awesome theater actor when he gets over this "I want to study" mood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 09:39:32 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 14, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Going from spoiled to psychopathic to cruel to defeated (by sometimes by Dance and sometimes Dinklage) back to spoiled is a range.
Plus, he made it clear that he was being bratty to get revenge on those who'd pushed him around for so long.  I think a character like that - he's not a straight bad guy, like Dance plays (that's the easy role, IMO) - is hard to play believably.  And Gleeson was very believable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 14, 2014, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 14, 2014, 09:11:25 PM
Jack Gleeson will be an awesome theater actor when he gets over this "I want to study" mood.

Once he realizes there's no money in being clever, he'll go back to playing roles written for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 14, 2014, 09:54:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 09:39:32 PM
Plus, he made it clear that he was being bratty to get revenge on those who'd pushed him around for so long. 

You make it sound like he's got halfway legitimate grievances. What did Sansa Stark do to push him around? Joffrey is a monster, not merely a spoiled child.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 14, 2014, 11:05:17 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 04:33:01 PM
Some site reported that he just didn't find acting "fun" anymore. Star as an evil and cruel boy king with millions of nerds with various social impediments and mental health problems watching, and you would want to become a student or just about anything that makes you less of an attraction to those.
Poor lad. Destroyed by one part.

Some people just find they don't like acting.  The chick from the Wonder Years got a degree in mathematics and never went back to acting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 14, 2014, 11:33:15 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 14, 2014, 09:54:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2014, 09:39:32 PM
Plus, he made it clear that he was being bratty to get revenge on those who'd pushed him around for so long. 
You make it sound like he's got halfway legitimate grievances. What did Sansa Stark do to push him around? Joffrey is a monster, not merely a spoiled child.
I think he's taking out his hatred of all things Stark on her.  Her sister humiliated him, her mother insulted his family, her father tried to say that he was an illegitimate monster and her older brother rebelled against him and proceeded to make him look weak.  Sansa was a convenient target for his wrath, as nobody (except for occasionally his uncle/her husband) would stand up for her.  Sure, it's monstrous and unreasonable, but it would make sense to Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2014, 11:57:03 PM
 :lol:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FBLH4Bs4.jpg&hash=5476784acd40210379778e4bb91a449c2e35bbb3)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 15, 2014, 03:20:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2014, 11:05:17 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 04:33:01 PM
Some site reported that he just didn't find acting "fun" anymore. Star as an evil and cruel boy king with millions of nerds with various social impediments and mental health problems watching, and you would want to become a student or just about anything that makes you less of an attraction to those.
Poor lad. Destroyed by one part.

Some people just find they don't like acting.  The chick from the Wonder Years got a degree in mathematics and never went back to acting.

The love interest? She was  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 15, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Apparently the band playing at the wedding that get coins thrown at them were Sigur Ros.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 15, 2014, 07:58:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2014, 11:05:17 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 14, 2014, 04:33:01 PM
Some site reported that he just didn't find acting "fun" anymore. Star as an evil and cruel boy king with millions of nerds with various social impediments and mental health problems watching, and you would want to become a student or just about anything that makes you less of an attraction to those.
Poor lad. Destroyed by one part.

Some people just find they don't like acting.  The chick from the Wonder Years got a degree in mathematics and never went back to acting.

Such a great show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 20, 2014, 09:13:37 PM
Loved the Python reference.

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 21, 2014, 12:43:29 AM
I just love Daenerys :)
I think, of all the characters, she's the one that got the most evolution so far, and in the books, she's close second to Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 21, 2014, 04:15:27 AM
This episode does a good job of establishing that Jaime and the Hound are not actually nice people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 21, 2014, 07:27:46 AM
Tommen was recast ey? I thought so.
I'm really not sure about this kid. Aging up the other characters...yeah, it works. But Tommen....the whole thing about him in the books is he was a lovely innocent little kid who just wanted to play with his cats and would be nothing but a pawn. Here he's a teenager, you'd think someone that age would be a bit more forthright.
And I suppose it puts a different spin on his relationship with Margery...she can control him not because she controls the supply of kittens and candy but because she controls the boobs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 21, 2014, 07:56:05 PM
Just found out the Hound is the "Yarp" guy from Hot Fuzz. The illusion as been shattered, I can't look at the hound the same way again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 21, 2014, 08:08:00 PM
Remembering things from Hot Fuzz...:x
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2014, 08:13:48 PM
Fortunately, I don't remember the movie at all, so my image of the Hound is untouched.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2014, 07:27:46 AM
Tommen was recast ey? I thought so.
I'm really not sure about this kid. Aging up the other characters...yeah, it works. But Tommen....the whole thing about him in the books is he was a lovely innocent little kid who just wanted to play with his cats and would be nothing but a pawn. Here he's a teenager, you'd think someone that age would be a bit more forthright.
And I suppose it puts a different spin on his relationship with Margery...she can control him not because she controls the supply of kittens and candy but because she controls the boobs.

[spoiler]Isn't he gonna get killed pretty soon too, or am I misremembering?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 21, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2014, 07:27:46 AM
Tommen was recast ey? I thought so.
I'm really not sure about this kid. Aging up the other characters...yeah, it works. But Tommen....the whole thing about him in the books is he was a lovely innocent little kid who just wanted to play with his cats and would be nothing but a pawn. Here he's a teenager, you'd think someone that age would be a bit more forthright.
And I suppose it puts a different spin on his relationship with Margery...she can control him not because she controls the supply of kittens and candy but because she controls the boobs.

[spoiler]Isn't he gonna get killed pretty soon too, or am I misremembering?[/spoiler]
[spoiler] he's alive. his sisters maimed though, IIRC. Though he's a sweet innocent kid, so he'll probably die a horrible death.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 21, 2014, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 21, 2014, 08:08:00 PM
Remembering things from Hot Fuzz...:x
it was an ok movie. Better than the third in the makeshift trilogy
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on April 21, 2014, 10:36:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 21, 2014, 07:56:05 PM
Just found out the Hound is the "Yarp" guy from Hot Fuzz. The illusion as been shattered, I can't look at the hound the same way again.

:lol:

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2014, 04:28:45 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 21, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2014, 07:27:46 AM
Tommen was recast ey? I thought so.
I'm really not sure about this kid. Aging up the other characters...yeah, it works. But Tommen....the whole thing about him in the books is he was a lovely innocent little kid who just wanted to play with his cats and would be nothing but a pawn. Here he's a teenager, you'd think someone that age would be a bit more forthright.
And I suppose it puts a different spin on his relationship with Margery...she can control him not because she controls the supply of kittens and candy but because she controls the boobs.

[spoiler]Isn't he gonna get killed pretty soon too, or am I misremembering?[/spoiler]
[spoiler] he's alive. his sisters maimed though, IIRC. Though he's a sweet innocent kid, so he'll probably die a horrible death.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Maimed? Was that seen 'on screen' (err....on page?) I can't recall that [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 23, 2014, 05:07:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2014, 04:28:45 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 21, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2014, 07:27:46 AM
Tommen was recast ey? I thought so.
I'm really not sure about this kid. Aging up the other characters...yeah, it works. But Tommen....the whole thing about him in the books is he was a lovely innocent little kid who just wanted to play with his cats and would be nothing but a pawn. Here he's a teenager, you'd think someone that age would be a bit more forthright.
And I suppose it puts a different spin on his relationship with Margery...she can control him not because she controls the supply of kittens and candy but because she controls the boobs.

[spoiler]Isn't he gonna get killed pretty soon too, or am I misremembering?[/spoiler]
[spoiler] he's alive. his sisters maimed though, IIRC. Though he's a sweet innocent kid, so he'll probably die a horrible death.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Maimed? Was that seen 'on screen' (err....on page?) I can't recall that [/spoiler]
[spoiler]It was, she got hurt during a Dornish scheme in the last book iirc.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 23, 2014, 06:33:44 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2014, 04:28:45 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 21, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 21, 2014, 07:27:46 AM
Tommen was recast ey? I thought so.
I'm really not sure about this kid. Aging up the other characters...yeah, it works. But Tommen....the whole thing about him in the books is he was a lovely innocent little kid who just wanted to play with his cats and would be nothing but a pawn. Here he's a teenager, you'd think someone that age would be a bit more forthright.
And I suppose it puts a different spin on his relationship with Margery...she can control him not because she controls the supply of kittens and candy but because she controls the boobs.

[spoiler]Isn't he gonna get killed pretty soon too, or am I misremembering?[/spoiler]
[spoiler] he's alive. his sisters maimed though, IIRC. Though he's a sweet innocent kid, so he'll probably die a horrible death.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Maimed? Was that seen 'on screen' (err....on page?) I can't recall that [/spoiler]

[spoiler]Darkstar is of the Night![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 23, 2014, 08:31:01 AM
Google Maps -like map of the world where you can see the movement of all major characters: http://quartermaester.info/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 27, 2014, 09:01:30 PM
So without giving stuff away.

I'm mid way through book 4 now.

Are they showing stuff that isn't until Book 5? :huh: Are they merging Books 3,4,5 in the series?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 27, 2014, 10:38:53 PM
Yeah, they're showing certain events north of the Wall and (I think) in Essos that don't happen until book 5. Most of 4 and 5 won't happen until next season, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 27, 2014, 10:49:28 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 23, 2014, 05:07:59 AM
[spoiler]It was, she got hurt during a Dornish scheme in the last book iirc.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I thought that was waaaaay back at the end of Feast For Crows.  That was why Doran locked his daughter up in the tower[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 27, 2014, 11:22:14 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 27, 2014, 10:38:53 PM
Yeah, they're showing certain events north of the Wall and (I think) in Essos that don't happen until book 5. Most of 4 and 5 won't happen until next season, though.
...and some things which aren't in the books at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 28, 2014, 12:59:21 PM
It feels like they are rushing now.  But I am not sure why.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2014, 12:59:21 PM
It feels like they are rushing now.  But I am not sure why.

Maybe because they're halfway through the TV series and not halfway through the story?

I agree that they are accelerating the pace, but it makes sense to do so; the characters are established and now it is more straightforward storytelling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on April 28, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
I stopped reading the books after book 3 so it feels like they're showing stuff I don't remember.  That last image of the white walker - are there more than conjectures as to what they are?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 28, 2014, 04:58:02 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 27, 2014, 11:22:14 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 27, 2014, 10:38:53 PM
Yeah, they're showing certain events north of the Wall and (I think) in Essos that don't happen until book 5. Most of 4 and 5 won't happen until next season, though.
...and some things which aren't in the books at all.

Like the [spoiler]slave rebellion?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 28, 2014, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2014, 12:59:21 PM
It feels like they are rushing now.  But I am not sure why.

Maybe because they're halfway through the TV series and not halfway through the story?

I agree that they are accelerating the pace, but it makes sense to do so; the characters are established and now it is more straightforward storytelling.

If that is the reason they are rushing then they should stop adding things that are not in the books.  The story is fine as written.  The part they are dealing with now is supposed to be nuanced.  Instead, you are correct they are dealing with it in a "straightforward" manner.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2014, 05:10:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2014, 05:02:12 PM
If that is the reason they are rushing then they should stop adding things that are not in the books.  The story is fine as written.  The part they are dealing with now is supposed to be nuanced.  Instead, you are correct they are dealing with it in a "straightforward" manner.

Remember that the HBO story isn't the story from the book, so get ready for a lot more addition and subtraction.  It is entirely possible that HBO will finish this series before Martin gets book six finished.  So, the story is not, in fact, "just fine as written."  It isn't even written yet.

You can do a lot of things in a nuanced fashion in writing, especially POV writing, and even more especially unreliable narrator POV writing, than you can in TV or movies.  OTOH, you can do things in movies or TV that you can't in writing.  Such as, in this case, who is the dude with the kid at the end?  He's not a White Walker, but he bears a lot of visual similarities to a WW.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 28, 2014, 05:48:40 PM
here's a good piece on AV that talks about differences in the book adn the show, and also, at the very ends, adds a little bit to what CC and Grumbler are just talking about:

http://www.avclub.com/article/well-actually-books-15-differences-text-tv-game-th-203713
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 28, 2014, 06:17:49 PM
Quote from: Grallon on April 28, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
I stopped reading the books after book 3 so it feels like they're showing stuff I don't remember.  That last image of the white walker - are there more than conjectures as to what they are?

No explanations are offered in book 4.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2014, 08:39:01 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 28, 2014, 06:17:49 PM
Quote from: Grallon on April 28, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
I stopped reading the books after book 3 so it feels like they're showing stuff I don't remember.  That last image of the white walker - are there more than conjectures as to what they are?

No explanations are offered in book 4.
Nor in book 5.

The last image doesn't look like a WW.  The WW are clearly formerly human.  What we see of the last dude isn't a former human at all.  Looks more like a Drakh or a demon than anything else I can think of.  My guess would be that these are the creatures that created the human White Walkers - the original Others that the First Men and Children of the Forest fought in the War of the Dawn (which led to the creation of the Wall).

Apparently, this is explored in the sixth book, to be released sometime in the next ten years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 29, 2014, 09:32:04 AM
HBO Go description called him the Night's King but was quickly erased.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
Well, the end of episode 5 confirmed what I have kinda suspected all along; the show's fight choreographer doesn't know what he is doing.  That fight between Jon Snow and Karl was boring (except at the end, where it was silly), the whole battle between the mutineers and Jon's band looked badly botched by Jon (why attack when they are all up, dressed, and armed?), and Locke's actions were incomprehensible;  he is supposed to be killing Starks, and yet declines to kill Bran (he could have easily killed all the captives and blamed it on the mutineers), instead kidnapping him.... because.... I guess just because.

This is also the first episode where I thought the direction was inferior.  Lighting was poorly used at Crastor's Keep, and the coronation just looked like maybe two dozen people were there (which there probably only were, but the director has to get around that).

I did like the Hound and Arya stuff, though.  That was well-directed, written, and acted amid beautiful scenery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:02:18 PM
IIRC this last episode is entirely composed of made up stuff, nothing of it appears in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 06:16:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:02:18 PM
IIRC this last episode is entirely composed of made up stuff, nothing of it appears in the books.

I don't think that this is true.  The Craster Keep stuff is original, but the rest of the episode conforms roughly to the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:26:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 06:16:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:02:18 PM
IIRC this last episode is entirely composed of made up stuff, nothing of it appears in the books.

I don't think that this is true.  The Craster Keep stuff is original, but the rest of the episode conforms roughly to the books.

It's been years since I read the books, but...

- Tommen's coronation, Cersei & Margaery, plus Cersei & Tywyn, none of that is in the books.
- Littlefinger and Sansa's arrival at the Vale I'm not really sure about, but I don't remember the scene being in the books, at least the way it unfolds.
- Daenerys' board meeting isn't in the books either, but parts of her dialogue are, basically the "I will learn to rule" thing.
- Brienne and Pod's scene isn't in the books. In the books Brienne leaves King's Landing alone, and Pod only catches up to her later on.
- Arya and the Hound's scene isn't either, to the best of my memory, but could be and it wouldn't change much.
- The whole beyond the wall story, the assault on Craster's Keep and the release of Bran and his party aren't in the books either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 06:56:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:26:53 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 06:16:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:02:18 PM
IIRC this last episode is entirely composed of made up stuff, nothing of it appears in the books.

I don't think that this is true.  The Craster Keep stuff is original, but the rest of the episode conforms roughly to the books.

It's been years since I read the books, but...

- Tommen's coronation, Cersei & Margaery, plus Cersei & Tywyn, none of that is in the books.
- Littlefinger and Sansa's arrival at the Vale I'm not really sure about, but I don't remember the scene being in the books, at least the way it unfolds.
- Daenerys' board meeting isn't in the books either, but parts of her dialogue are, basically the "I will learn to rule" thing.
- Brienne and Pod's scene isn't in the books. In the books Brienne leaves King's Landing alone, and Pod only catches up to her later on.
- Arya and the Hound's scene isn't either, to the best of my memory, but could be and it wouldn't change much.
- The whole beyond the wall story, the assault on Craster's Keep and the release of Bran and his party aren't in the books either.
I am pretty sure that Tommen is crowned in the books, and that Cercei and Margaery talk about Margaery marrying Tommen.
I am pretty sure that Balish and Sansa go to the Vale in the books.
Brienne and Pod travel together in the books.  The bit last week, where Pod is directly assigned to Brienne, was a vastly simplified version of how he came to join her.  This week's bit, where he turns out not to have a lot of skills, is part of his character in the books.
In the books, Arya and the Hound are travelling to the Vale.
As for the Craster's Keep stuff, you can't have my point.  :P

Now, not everything happens the same way and in the same order as the books, but the show isn't a book.  It's a different medium with different rules and a much shorter "screen time."  Characters have to be condensed into one another, scenes moved, shortened and combined, and as much as possible "shown rather than told."  None of these workarounds mean that the show is creating original material.  It is just being a show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 07:09:12 PM
We don't see lots of that stuff because there are no POV characters involved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 05, 2014, 10:02:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
Locke's actions were incomprehensible;  he is supposed to be killing Starks, and yet declines to kill Bran (he could have easily killed all the captives and blamed it on the mutineers), instead kidnapping him.... because.... I guess just because.

He's supposed to kill Bran and Rickon. If he kills Bran without interrogating him first then he may never find Rickon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 05, 2014, 11:55:06 PM


I think the plan was to take them into the woods and then kill them. If Jon found the bodies, then the North would know that Theon didn't kill Bran. And if he didn't kill Bran then he also didn't kill Rickon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 06, 2014, 01:24:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2014, 06:26:53 PM
- Tommen's coronation, Cersei & Margaery, plus Cersei & Tywyn, none of that is in the books.
I don't think it is shown the way it was shown, but it is at the very least mentionned that there is a crowning.

Quote
- Littlefinger and Sansa's arrival at the Vale I'm not really sure about, but I don't remember the scene being in the books, at least the way it unfolds.
It's about the way it is written in the books, witht he aunt being all nice at first, then increasingly bipolar jealous.
Quote
- Arya and the Hound's scene isn't either, to the best of my memory, but could be and it wouldn't change much.
Hmm, there's something similar to that.

Quote
- The whole beyond the wall story, the assault on Craster's Keep and the release of Bran and his party aren't in the books either.
Well, IIRC, Bran&co were supposed to nearly meet Jon Snow in a few places, the last of them being directly at the wall, where they were using some secret passage shown to Sam by Coldhands, and happen to stumble upon Bran&co.

I figured that, due to budget considerations, this part has to be rewritten.  They reused the Craster's set, so they save money and they move Coldhands to another season, just like they moved Bran's friends.
It still works in the story and it's cheaper to produce then recreate an entire new set for the Wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 06, 2014, 04:41:18 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
This is also the first episode where I thought the direction was inferior.  Lighting was poorly used at Crastor's Keep, and the coronation just looked like maybe two dozen people were there (which there probably only were, but the director has to get around that).
Yes, the lighting was pretty terrible. I had to close my curtains to make out what was going on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 05, 2014, 11:55:06 PM


I think the plan was to take them into the woods and then kill them. If Jon found the bodies, then the North would know that Theon didn't kill Bran. And if he didn't kill Bran then he also didn't kill Rickon.
Good point.  I suppose he could have killed Bran and started a fire, but that would be risky.  Still, leaving the Reeds alive pretty much ruins the plans to keep Bran a secret.

I suppose it is possible that he wanted to interrogate Bran about Rickon, as Tim suggested, but since he obviously has supernatural tracking abilities (I mean, how could he have possibly known how to find Bran to begin with?) 'm not sure I buy that one.  Plus, if he is going to take one of the party for interrogation, Bran is the one least likely to do him much good.  The Reeds are likelier to know where Rickon is, and are self-propelled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2014, 11:03:48 AM
The show is now suffering with the Imp sidelined.  One consolation is that the actor playing Dani has made a very good transition from powerless girl to regal Queen.  She saved that episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2014, 10:33:00 PM
http://imgur.com/a/3fnCC

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 09, 2014, 06:46:19 AM
:lol:

I don't get the last picture.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 09, 2014, 06:49:09 AM
I believe that was Saul Goodman's "bodyguard" on Breaking Bad. He was also a frequent source of comic relief.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2014, 08:39:47 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 06, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
but since he obviously has supernatural tracking abilities (I mean, how could he have possibly known how to find Bran to begin with?) 'm not sure I buy that one.
He might not have known at first, he only wanted to gain Jon's confidence, in case Bran were to come to him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2014, 10:33:35 PM
As to Joffrey not wanting to be an actor and going to school instead- I recall the girl who played harmoine in Harry potter said the same. She vanished for a little while but now crops up in a fair few things (haven't seen much of the other main characters...)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 10, 2014, 10:41:32 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2014, 10:33:35 PM
As to Joffrey not wanting to be an actor and going to school instead- I recall the girl who played harmoine in Harry potter said the same. She vanished for a little while but now crops up in a fair few things (haven't seen much of the other main characters...)
And never graduated from any of the half-dozen colleges she attended. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 11, 2014, 02:20:15 AM
Why would she? For most people college is a means to an end, and she has already secured that end and much more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 06:14:05 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2014, 02:20:15 AM
Why would she? For most people college is a means to an end, and she has already secured that end and much more.

It is rather sad that there apparently are people who really do believe that college is just a means to an end.  :(  You probably missed out on what should have been the best three or four years of your whole life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 11, 2014, 06:17:18 AM
School sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 11, 2014, 06:58:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 06:14:05 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2014, 02:20:15 AM
Why would she? For most people college is a means to an end, and she has already secured that end and much more.

It is rather sad that there apparently are people who really do believe that college is just a means to an end.  :(  You probably missed out on what should have been the best three or four years of your whole life.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's still having the best three-four years of her life...and then some.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 11, 2014, 06:59:54 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 11, 2014, 06:58:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 06:14:05 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2014, 02:20:15 AM
Why would she? For most people college is a means to an end, and she has already secured that end and much more.

It is rather sad that there apparently are people who really do believe that college is just a means to an end.  :(  You probably missed out on what should have been the best three or four years of your whole life.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's still having the best three-four years of her life...and then some.

I'd give her a good 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 08:21:04 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 11, 2014, 06:58:01 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's still having the best three-four years of her life...and then some.

I'm pretty sure this statement is gibberish.  The "best... and then some"?   :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 11, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
 :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 11, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
:huh:

In English, you cannot qualify "best" with a phrase that means "with considerably more in addition."  Best is an absolute term.  You can't get "considerably more" than "best."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 11, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 08:21:04 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 11, 2014, 06:58:01 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's still having the best three-four years of her life...and then some.

I'm pretty sure this statement is gibberish.  The "best... and then some"?   :lol:

He's saying that going to class and earning a degree isn't what makes college the best years of many people's lives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 08:45:15 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 11, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
He's saying that going to class and earning a degree isn't what makes college the best years of many people's lives.

He cannot have my point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 11, 2014, 08:46:46 AM
Unless he takes the point from your cold, dead hands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2014, 11:59:52 PM
Game of Thrones is now the most popular HBO show ever, even more so than the Sopranos.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/07/game-thrones-mid-season-game-numbers/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 12, 2014, 12:18:48 AM
:yeah:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 12, 2014, 12:43:20 AM
What's the budget compared to The Sopranos?  8 times? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 12, 2014, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 06:14:05 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2014, 02:20:15 AM
Why would she? For most people college is a means to an end, and she has already secured that end and much more.

It is rather sad that there apparently are people who really do believe that college is just a means to an end.  :(  You probably missed out on what should have been the best three or four years of your whole life.

As somebody suffering through finals right now I can honestly say I have had much better times in my life than this  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
People who think university was the best time of their life probably grew up with too much money.  Or into a decent country like Sweden.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2014, 02:45:08 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 12, 2014, 12:43:20 AM
What's the budget compared to The Sopranos?  8 times?
But they're able to sell this to many more overseas market at higher prices than the Sopranos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
People who think university was the best time of their life probably grew up with too much money.  Or into a decent country like Sweden.

People who think that only people who grew up with too much money could enjoy university probably know no more about university than they do about fornication.

I grew up quite poor, was the first in my family to graduate from college, and received not a penny for any college expenses from my parents or family.  And it was the best four years of my life.  My college friends all feel the same way.  Other friends who attended college feel the same way.  You are in a new environment, away from home, with low expectations, and surrounded by talented like-minded people of your own age.  You'll never get that (less the "talented") again unless you join the Chair Force.

Now, the happiest single year for most will be the first year of marriage.  The passage of time will take care of that memory, though!  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 06:37:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 12, 2014, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2014, 06:14:05 AM
It is rather sad that there apparently are people who really do believe that college is just a means to an end.  :(  You probably missed out on what should have been the best three or four years of your whole life.

As somebody suffering through finals right now I can honestly say I have had much better times in my life than this  :lol:
I thought you were getting your degree as a means to an end.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 11:43:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
People who think university was the best time of their life probably grew up with too much money.  Or into a decent country like Sweden.

:huh:

Why do you think that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 12, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 11, 2014, 11:59:52 PM
Game of Thrones is now the most popular HBO show ever, even more so than the Sopranos.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/07/game-thrones-mid-season-game-numbers/

Grumber would argue that by saying "the most popular HBO show ever, " the rest of your statement is redundant.

I, on the other hand, appreciate the emphasis that the qualitative end makes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 12, 2014, 01:38:39 PM
GOT is a great show, HBO did a great job with the story line and cast. But given the complex story, the many characters and individual story plots, and so much going on I'm also a bit surprised that it's so popular. The story is pretty easy to follow even given how many different parts to it there are. So I think it's a tribute to how well done HBO's writers have made it while being faithful enough to the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 02:32:39 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
Grumber would argue that by saying "the most popular HBO show ever, " the rest of your statement is redundant.

I would make that as a statement, not an argument.  It is redundent to say that a show is the most popular ever, and then say that it is also more popular than a show that is not as popular.

QuoteI, on the other hand, appreciate the emphasis that the qualitative end makes.

There is no qualitative end here.  What the author meant to say was that it overtook The Sopranos.  That is sufficiently obvious that I would never have mentioned the slight distortion in wording.  You obviously want to call attention to it.  However, i have not a clue as to why you thought it important to hypothesize about what I might say.  You are your own person, and don't need to reference my ideas to affirm your own ideas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 12, 2014, 01:38:39 PM
GOT is a great show, HBO did a great job with the story line and cast. But given the complex story, the many characters and individual story plots, and so much going on I'm also a bit surprised that it's so popular. The story is pretty easy to follow even given how many different parts to it there are. So I think it's a tribute to how well done HBO's writers have made it while being faithful enough to the books.

I am pretty sure all the gratuitous nudity, sex and dumbing down the plot lines have a lot to do with it too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 12, 2014, 03:15:25 PM
Theon's never been very receptive to interventions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lki-nBllz78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lki-nBllz78)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 03:37:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
I am pretty sure all the gratuitous nudity, sex and dumbing down the plot lines have a lot to do with it too.

I disagree that the plot has been "dumbed down."  It has been simplified, certainly, but a lot of what has been cut was itself dumb and the rest was not worth pursuing in a time-limited medium.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 12, 2014, 03:39:13 PM
In a cunning move they dumbed down the audience instead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 03:37:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
I am pretty sure all the gratuitous nudity, sex and dumbing down the plot lines have a lot to do with it too.

I disagree that the plot has been "dumbed down."  It has been simplified, certainly, but a lot of what has been cut was itself dumb and the rest was not worth pursuing in a time-limited medium.

This point in the books is a period of intense emotional turmoil for the Imp related to his first love and his conflict with his brother and father over the issue.  All of that has been dumbed down to the Imp being upset that Shae has taken the stand against him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 03:40:14 PM
This point in the books is a period of intense emotional turmoil for the Imp related to his first love and his conflict with his brother and father over the issue.  All of that has been dumbed down to the Imp being upset that Shae has taken the stand against him.

Tyrion's first marriage was discussed in the show, pretty much exactly as it was in the books.  I imagine it will be again, in the next episode.  It didn't play a role in the trial in the books that I can remember (and it wouldn't make sense for it to play any role in the trial).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 03:40:14 PM
This point in the books is a period of intense emotional turmoil for the Imp related to his first love and his conflict with his brother and father over the issue.  All of that has been dumbed down to the Imp being upset that Shae has taken the stand against him.

Tyrion's first marriage was discussed in the show, pretty much exactly as it was in the books.  I imagine it will be again, in the next episode.  It didn't play a role in the trial in the books that I can remember (and it wouldn't make sense for it to play any role in the trial).

It doesnt.  Thats the point.  The Imps anguish comes out at the trial in the show. ie the dumbing down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 12, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
Very good episode that confirms HBO has found the proper way to translate Martin's books.  No matter the shortcuts and omissions they took compared to the source material - the essence of the narrative and the characters' personalities have been preserved IMO.  Perhaps it is easier with a completely fictional setting - as opposed to say ROME which personally I detested since it took far too many liberties in ascribing XXIst century motives to 1st century historical figures.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 05:33:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 04:56:27 PM
It doesnt.  Thats the point.  The Imps anguish comes out at the trial in the show. ie the dumbing down.

You've lost me.  What is the point, and how is Tyrion's anguish different ("dumbed down") in the show?  The show demonstrated his anguish over the fate of his first wife, and his subsequent distrust of love.  it did it in one conversation rather than two, but that's the nature of the medium.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2014, 10:46:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 11:43:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
People who think university was the best time of their life probably grew up with too much money.  Or into a decent country like Sweden.

:huh:

Why do you think that?
For me I t was a crappy time of grinding poverty and exams.
The wealthy who had no worries about life after school or what they were going to eat that night seemed to like it though
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 11:10:38 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2014, 05:33:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 04:56:27 PM
It doesnt.  Thats the point.  The Imps anguish comes out at the trial in the show. ie the dumbing down.

You've lost me. 

Thats only because you pretend not to understand something unless the person communicating with you connects all the dots.   And even then sometimes you pretend not to understand.  At least I hope you are just pretending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2014, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 11:10:38 AM
Thats only because you pretend not to understand something unless the person communicating with you connects all the dots.   And even then sometimes you pretend not to understand.  At least I hope you are just pretending.

I take it that you have responded with a pathetically obvious ad hom because you have no intellectual argument to make to support your assertion that the plot of the TV show has been "dumbed down."  I didn't think you did, because your earlier arguments were gibberish, but I wanted to be sure.  Thanks for not disappointing me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 13, 2014, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 11:10:38 AM
Thats only because you pretend not to understand something unless the person communicating with you connects all the dots.   And even then sometimes you pretend not to understand.  At least I hope you are just pretending.

I take it that you have responded with a pathetically obvious ad hom because you have no intellectual argument to make to support your assertion that the plot of the TV show has been "dumbed down."  I didn't think you did, because your earlier arguments were gibberish, but I wanted to be sure.  Thanks for not disappointing me.

I am not attacking your ideas.  I am commenting on your behaviour.  Since you throw around the words "ad hom" so much you should probably use them correctly.

Also, you should probably not engage in it yourself.

In any event if you dont think the plot line has been dumbed down then I suppose that speaks to your understanding of the plot lines in the books more than anything.  But I think what is really going on here is the typical Grumbler response since pages ago you defended the deviations from the books as the need to simplify the plot lines for the show.

Now I suppose you see a different between simplifying something and dumbing it down.  No doubt an argument could be made for such a distinction.  But it really all just ends in Grumbleresque gibberish.

One consolation for you is that compared to the Imp, you really are very tall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2014, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 11:47:34 AM
I am not attacking your ideas.  I am commenting on your behaviour.  Since you throw around the words "ad hom" so much you should probably use them correctly.

Also, you should probably not engage in it yourself.

Wow!  :lol:  Irony truly is NOT just the opposite of wrinkly!   You really do need to look up the definition of an ad hominem argument ("ad hom" for short).  It is precisely the fallacy of commenting on behavior or other characteristics of the presenter of an argument, rather than the content of the argument.  It is precisely because it is a fallacy that I don't engage in it.


QuoteIn any event if you dont think the plot line has been dumbed down then I suppose that speaks to your understanding of the plot lines in the books more than anything.  But I think what is really going on here is the typical Grumbler response since pages ago you defended the deviations from the books as the need to simplify the plot lines for the show.

Again, more classic ad hom argumentation.  If you had a logical response, you would be making it.  Since you are not making a logical argument, we can presume that you cannot.


QuoteNow I suppose you see a different between simplifying something and dumbing it down.  No doubt an argument could be made for such a distinction.  But it really all just ends in Grumbleresque gibberish.

I think it is obvious to everyone whose arguments have ended in gibberish!  :lol:  Thanks, again, for not disappointing.

Please respond with more ad homs.  They are still amusing (to me;  the rest of the audience is streaming towards the exit, as your comedy is pretty one-dimensional).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2014, 12:34:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 10:46:10 PM
For me I t was a crappy time of grinding poverty and exams.
The wealthy who had no worries about life after school or what they were going to eat that night seemed to like it though

I am not wealthy and I loved university for the abundant pussy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2014, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2014, 12:34:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 10:46:10 PM
For me I t was a crappy time of grinding poverty and exams.
The wealthy who had no worries about life after school or what they were going to eat that night seemed to like it though

I am not wealthy and I loved university for the abundant pussy.

Yeah, I would think that, if there is any time in your life when it is okay to endure grinding poverty, it is while in university.  Money is too important for some peoples' happiness, I guess, for even university to compensate for its lack.  Must suck to be them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 13, 2014, 01:32:48 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 10:46:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 11:43:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
People who think university was the best time of their life probably grew up with too much money.  Or into a decent country like Sweden.

:huh:

Why do you think that?
For me I t was a crappy time of grinding poverty and exams.
The wealthy who had no worries about life after school or what they were going to eat that night seemed to like it though

You worry too much. Also do not assume all of the people enjoying themselves are rich. Some people don't have a care in the world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 13, 2014, 01:36:33 PM
If Tyr had money he'd complain about something else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 10:46:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2014, 11:43:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
People who think university was the best time of their life probably grew up with too much money.  Or into a decent country like Sweden.

:huh:

Why do you think that?
For me I t was a crappy time of grinding poverty and exams.
The wealthy who had no worries about life after school or what they were going to eat that night seemed to like it though

I had very little money also but for me it was one of the best periods of my life.  I met a number of very interesting people including a number of people who have been life long friends.  As much as I enjoyed the social scene I enjoyed the educational experience even more. 

One of the things that may have made my university experience more enjoyable is that it definitely was not a means to an end.  I had no idea what I wanted to do when I got there, other than play basketball.  So I was able to enjoy it all without having to achieve anything in particular.  Ironically that is probably also why I did so well academically.  There was no pressure and certainly no expectation that I should do well. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 13, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
So... Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 13, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
So... Game of Thrones.


Thats what happens when it gets dumbed down.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2014, 07:42:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 13, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
So... Game of Thrones.


Thats what happens when it gets dumbed down.  :D

Everyone in this thread should make themselves smarter by watching my Lily Allen video.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 13, 2014, 11:50:52 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2014, 07:42:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2014, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 13, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
So... Game of Thrones.


Thats what happens when it gets dumbed down.  :D

Everyone in this thread should make themselves smarter by watching my Lily Allen video.

Err?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 14, 2014, 12:03:49 AM
A more fitting song for Theon Greyjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDB-yswOrzc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDB-yswOrzc)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 14, 2014, 08:10:44 PM
http://youtu.be/jvHK6blDJaQ (http://youtu.be/jvHK6blDJaQ)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 15, 2014, 04:41:45 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 14, 2014, 08:10:44 PM
http://youtu.be/jvHK6blDJaQ (http://youtu.be/jvHK6blDJaQ)

It seems so natural. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 17, 2014, 11:09:33 AM
So I saw the episode in which Theon's sister tries to rescue him from the dreaded Dreadfort.

Question: [spoiler]what did nasty bastard boy show or tell the sister that made her give up the rescue attempt?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 17, 2014, 11:34:30 AM
[spoiler]I thought it was his intention to release the hounds that got her on the run, and that Reek obviously was not who she remembered.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 17, 2014, 11:37:09 AM
Last week's episode was weak.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 17, 2014, 12:23:14 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 17, 2014, 11:34:30 AM
[spoiler]I thought it was his intention to release the hounds that got her on the run, and that Reek obviously was not who she remembered.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]ya, I think it was the dogs that made her change her mind. plus, it was only a matter of time until more guards arrived. it was a quick strike operation that went bad because her brother is now broken. it was time to cut and run[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 17, 2014, 12:33:28 PM
 :huh:[spoiler]A Viking chick soiled her panties over some dogs??[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2014, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 17, 2014, 12:33:28 PM
:huh:[spoiler]A Viking chick soiled her panties over some dogs??[/spoiler]
Why are you spoiler-marking this discussion?  this episode has already aired.

Viking chick leaves because she cannot accomplish her mission.  She wanted to free her brother, but can't do it because he resists being freed, and to drag him out with guards and vicious dogs attacking them from all sides isn't possible.  Besides, the assumption that she would be rescuing her brother was obviously wrong; whatever that thing in the cage was, it wasn't a prince of the Ironborn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2014, 01:11:55 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 17, 2014, 11:37:09 AM
Last week's episode was weak.

It was a transitional episode between one set of violent episodes and another.  More yak-yak than hack-hack, but you need both types of episodes.  I think the reveal about Jon Arryn's death and the letter to Catelyn probably made this ep more worthwhile to non-readers of the books than to those who already knew about this.  I know my students who hadn't read the books were blown away upon discovering that everything they thought they knew about why Ned Stark died was wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2014, 04:55:03 PM
I'm actually wondering how well most viewers caught the Jon Arryn comment. His name wasn't mentioned since season 1 (?) and in the episode the reveal was made in a very quick and offhand manner in between all the other Lysa craziness and everything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2014, 07:49:14 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 17, 2014, 04:55:03 PM
I'm actually wondering how well most viewers caught the Jon Arryn comment. His name wasn't mentioned since season 1 (?) and in the episode the reveal was made in a very quick and offhand manner in between all the other Lysa craziness and everything else.

A good point.  I'll have to ask if they actually caught that at the time, or just after someone (maybe online) said something about it.  It still was a nice moment in the episode, I thought.  Kinda blows away the "dumbed down" accusation about the show, though, to bring such a key point in so tangentially.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:32:30 AM
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/world-news/item/120619-lily-allen-said-no-to-game-of-thrones

QuoteLily Allen said 'no' to Game of Thrones

Pop sensation Lily Allen has revealed that she turned down a role in TV show Game Of Thrones because it involved her getting a bit too close for comfort to brother Alfie.



During an Ask Me Anything session for Reddit the singer said that she was approached about playing princess Yara Greyjoy.

However, she said no to the role because the scenes involved too much incest.

Lily's brother Alfie Allen, who has been on the show from the start, plays Theon Greyjoy in the hit fantasy series. Brit actress Gemma Whelan plays the part of Yara.

Lily said: "I've been asked to do a Game of Thrones cameo. They asked me if I'd be interested in playing Theon's sister, and I felt uncomfortable because I would have had to go on a horse and he would have touched me up and ****.

"Once they told me what it entailed, I said no thanks."

Allen, who recently released new album Sheezus, has said that she would consider another role on the show if offered one.

The pop star, who said she is very proud of her "gifted" brother, said she would love to do a musical cameo like Sigur Ros.

Icelandic band Sigur Ros appeared last year in an episode of TV show The Simpsons which was set in their home country.

Coincidentally, some of Game of Thrones is filmed in Iceland.

She has the look for Asha

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FObserver%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2013%2F11%2F13%2F1384342634227%2FLily-Allen--008.jpg&hash=c2a0d24367ed12e758c4e93990f019308b2e53e1)

Apprently their (alfie and lilly's) father is also a working actor, and has the look of Balon Greyjoy too

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-VIxvOnh9x1E%2FT3TOSKoMKEI%2FAAAAAAAAAes%2Fd1Ww6o5p--0%2Fs400%2Ftumblr_m0we7sDp8Q1rrt491o1_500.jpg&hash=8d8d92de1cbc3a1d26e354007004761206dd2544)

That would have been.. eh... uncomfortable? creepy? just plain weird? (assuming of course she is competent as an actor)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 19, 2014, 07:41:52 AM
Yeah, read that the other day. I recall back in the time of series 1 a lot of people were calling for her to be cast as Asha. I guess they expected that scene not to make it through intact.


Hot Pie is my new hero.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 19, 2014, 07:41:52 AM
Yeah, read that the other day. I recall back in the time of series 1 a lot of people were calling for her to be cast as Asha. I guess they expected that scene not to make it through intact.


Hot Pie is my new hero.

Well, if Brienne had been Aemory Lorch or Adam Marbrand instead he would have been a filthy betrayer of virtuous Starks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 19, 2014, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:32:30 AM
She has the look for Asha

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FObserver%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2013%2F11%2F13%2F1384342634227%2FLily-Allen--008.jpg&hash=c2a0d24367ed12e758c4e93990f019308b2e53e1)

Not butch enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 19, 2014, 04:10:23 PM
Littlefinger killing his wife is my favorite moment in the entire series and they fucked it up by not having the bard there. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 19, 2014, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 19, 2014, 04:10:23 PM
Littlefinger killing his wife is my favorite moment in the entire series and they fucked it up by not having the bard there.

What's the point of the bard being there in the show? We'll get to see next week how LF weasels out of it in some different way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 19, 2014, 04:24:30 PM
So it's okay now to perv over Sansa?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
Why would you want to? :yucky:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 19, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 19, 2014, 04:24:30 PM
So it's okay now to perv over Sansa?

The actress is 18, so... :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 19, 2014, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 19, 2014, 04:10:23 PM
Littlefinger killing his wife is my favorite moment in the entire series and they fucked it up by not having the bard there.

the bard named after my favourite band.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2014, 05:12:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 19, 2014, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 19, 2014, 04:10:23 PM
Littlefinger killing his wife is my favorite moment in the entire series and they fucked it up by not having the bard there.

What's the point of the bard being there in the show? We'll get to see next week how LF weasels out of it in some different way.
:yes: Not having an extraneous actor saves money.  That's the kind of change shows have to make. I have to admit that I am looking forward to seeing what the writers come up with for Littlefinger's alibi.

The conversation between Tyrion and Jaime pretty much demolishes the last of the "dumbed down" accusation. 

I have to agree with Yi that Sansa isn't nearly so good in the looks department as everyone in the show claims.  Sophie Turner's fine in the role, but the makeup leaves her looking far too washed-out to be all that attractive.  She looks much better in her off-screen appearances (except when made up for GoT events).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 19, 2014, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:32:30 AM
She has the look for Asha

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FObserver%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2013%2F11%2F13%2F1384342634227%2FLily-Allen--008.jpg&hash=c2a0d24367ed12e758c4e93990f019308b2e53e1)

Not butch enough.

she is described in ACOK chapter 24 she is described as being

QuoteAsha is lean and long-legged, with short black hair and a sharp nose in a thin face

Lilly doesn't quite have the sharp nose, but apart from that she fits the description.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 06:30:12 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
Why would you want to? :yucky:

I agree.

Sophie Turner is a handsome young lady, but I find it hard to perv over since her character is so constantly sad and depressed I find it uncomfortable to muster the enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 19, 2014, 07:16:42 PM
Sophie Turner has gained face+chin fat the past two years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:32:04 PM
Sophie Turner's audition
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F1w7KGI8aJco%2F0.jpg&hash=28ca29f86df8391e6a023b565d495fb1064199d1)

Sophie Turner today
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Ftumblr_mf9219MnJ61qf3yhwo1_500.jpg&hash=d025cfb769ba3fdcb859a6b9c0ae542a5f171b67)

however, I still can't think of her as anything but Sansa with all the crying and mumbling and fear. She needs to un-typecast herself before I can legitimately perv her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:35:22 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 19, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 19, 2014, 04:24:30 PM
So it's okay now to perv over Sansa?

The actress is 18, so... :perv:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.pandawhale.com%2F79164-GRRM-SOON-meme-Sansa-Stark-Sop-y46K.jpeg&hash=04ca973e9d68aa00f317eb018795995b9db8fc44)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 07:49:53 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:32:04 PM
Sophie Turner's audition
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F1w7KGI8aJco%2F0.jpg&hash=28ca29f86df8391e6a023b565d495fb1064199d1)

Man, the audience and the producers really got gypped.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 19, 2014, 08:02:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 07:49:53 PM
Man, the audience and the producers really got gypped.  :(

How so? I think Sansa has been well acted and Turner has managed to act both Sansa and Sansa acting for the benefit of others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 19, 2014, 08:12:24 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2014, 08:02:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 07:49:53 PM
Man, the audience and the producers really got gypped.  :(

How so? I think Sansa has been well acted and Turner has managed to act both Sansa and Sansa acting for the benefit of others.

I think he's saying her elbows are pointy on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 08:17:12 PM
Compared to how smooth they were earlier?  hell yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 19, 2014, 08:18:22 PM
Last night's episode was one of the best of the entire show.  Aidan Gillen killed it in the scene with Lysa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 19, 2014, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
Why would you want to? :yucky:

Homo
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 19, 2014, 08:32:14 PM
Littlefinger is being portrayed very villainy. Not that he isn't, or wasn't intended as such, but you can almost see him twirl him moustache as he walks into a scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2014, 08:35:22 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 19, 2014, 08:32:14 PM
Littlefinger is being portrayed very villainy. Not that he isn't, or wasn't intended as such, but you can almost see him twirl him moustache as he walks into a scene.

Yes.  In a visual medium you have to say as much as possible visually.  He'd not get by in "real life" being so obviously slimey.  The show may have overdone it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 19, 2014, 08:52:51 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 19, 2014, 07:41:52 AM
Yeah, read that the other day. I recall back in the time of series 1 a lot of people were calling for her to be cast as Asha. I guess they expected that scene not to make it through intact.


Hot Pie is my new hero.

Well, if Brienne had been Aemory Lorch or Adam Marbrand instead he would have been a filthy betrayer of virtuous Starks.
I was thinking more about his speech about making pie right :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 04:13:44 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 19, 2014, 07:32:04 PM
Sophie Turner's audition
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F1w7KGI8aJco%2F0.jpg&hash=28ca29f86df8391e6a023b565d495fb1064199d1)

Sophie Turner today
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Ftumblr_mf9219MnJ61qf3yhwo1_500.jpg&hash=d025cfb769ba3fdcb859a6b9c0ae542a5f171b67)

however, I still can't think of her as anything but Sansa with all the crying and mumbling and fear. She needs to un-typecast herself before I can legitimately perv her.

She's in an action-comedy with Jessica Alba, Samuel L. Jackson and the girl from True Grit that opens in september. It's about a teenage assassin that goes undercover in a suburban high school or something like that. Maybe that'll help.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:20:27 AM
Last young red haired actress I saw in a high school comedy did very well for herself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 04:31:23 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:20:27 AM
Last young red haired actress I saw in a high school comedy did very well for herself.

Lindsay Lohan?  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2014, 04:32:28 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:20:27 AM
Last young red haired actress I saw in a high school comedy did very well for herself.

which one?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sonypictures.com%2Fmovies%2Feasya%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Fonesheet.jpg&hash=cce5066e8139079168fa2bdbd4d66d9ff3d799aa)?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fabcallaccess.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2FSHOWSHEET_SuburgatoryB-640.jpg&hash=d788bdfd40947b64aeda8338476c7f5f53d3d0d3)?

anyways, Sophie isn't a red-head. 

(anyways, why is Mary Jane always played by a blonde and gwen stacy always played by a red head in spider man movies?)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:43:14 AM
The first one, is the second something one should watch? (In Viking's response :P)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 20, 2014, 05:08:12 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 19, 2014, 08:18:22 PM
Last night's episode was one of the best of the entire show.  Aidan Gillen killed it in the scene with Lysa.

His Littlefinger character is one of the more sinister ones I have seen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2014, 05:10:46 AM
It's ok as far as sitcoms about teenagers go. Nothing special.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 20, 2014, 05:18:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 05:10:46 AM
It's ok as far as sitcoms about teenagers go. Nothing special.

Best review of Game of Thrones ever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2014, 06:09:54 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:43:14 AM
The first one, is the second something one should watch? (In Viking's response :P)

I wouldn't watch the second one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 20, 2014, 06:30:27 AM
Emma Stone is actually blonde.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2014, 06:42:43 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2014, 06:30:27 AM
Emma Stone is actually blonde.

I double checked and, yes you are are right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 20, 2014, 07:26:18 AM

Good show this week, as usual of course. Tyrion continues to impress, as he does in the books. Dinklage does such a great job with the role. I was waiting for Littlefinger's scene with Lyssa. I think he says that Lyssa jumped or something, but I think in the books he had a couple witnesses who he coerced to coroborate his story? Sansa and another person, the bard. Sansa is still the very naive girl, even while all the nastiness has gone on around her. Kind of cool how Cersei just nonchalantly walked over the dead and addressed  the "Mountain" Gregor Clegane so casually. I'm really liking the Hound, the tough but not so crazed Clegane brother, liked him in the books too. The actor playing him does a good job. And it's always fun seeing Arya go through her paces. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 07:38:56 AM
I haven't read the books but I know Tyrion isn't dead.

I do wonder how he is going to survive this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2014, 07:53:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 07:38:56 AM
I haven't read the books but I know Tyrion isn't dead.

I do wonder how he is going to survive this.

Without really spoiling anything, it involves looking for whores, nearly getting eaten by lions, being sold into slavery, short range crossbow marksmanship, getting hideously drunk, getting abducted at a whore house and, rather bizarrely making a friend who likes him for who he is not what he is. 

Edit: apart from spoiling the fact that he survives, obviously...
Edit2: or I'm pulling your leg.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
I've read some wikis & some free chapters.

I'm just unsure how he survives his trial by combat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 20, 2014, 08:34:35 AM
How did he survive his first one?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 08:35:11 AM
Bron won back in season 1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 20, 2014, 09:15:11 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
I've read some wikis & some free chapters.

I'm just unsure how he survives his trial by combat.

In the last episode the guy from Dorne, Oberyn Martell, offered to fight The Mountain as Tyrion's champion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2014, 09:20:24 AM
I'm wondering about with the stuff in the Eyrie....Am I totally misremembering the books or is everything much more explicit here? I can't remember a kiss and Lysa outright admitting to killing her husband (though it was pretty much said IIRC).
The TV show seems to be going very quickly in the Eyrie. It has almost caught up with the books there.
And...have we seen anyone else in the Eyrie yet? It always seems to be just Lysa, Robin, Sansa and Littlefinger, alone in the big halls :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 09:47:06 AM
Lysa admitted it too in the novels, but only before LF kicked her down the hole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 20, 2014, 10:50:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
I've read some wikis & some free chapters.

I'm just unsure how he survives his trial by combat.

Didn't you see? The Red Viper is going to kill the Mountain... sorry fight the Mountain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 11:45:08 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 19, 2014, 04:10:23 PM
Littlefinger killing his wife is my favorite moment in the entire series and they fucked it up by not having the bard there.

Agreed.  Very disappointing and another example of the show getting dumbed down.  Littlefinger's elaborate plot to off his wife and assume control was dumbed down to merely pushing her down the hole.  While it had some resemblance to the plot in the book - ie it ended with the woman's death we miss what made the books (up to this point) great.

Also the viewer begins to lose touch with the Littlefinger of the books who was far too smart not to stage things so that someone else could be blamed for the death.   

I agree with Kronn's assessment of the scenes with Arya and the Hound though.  I also liked the scene between the Imp and the Prince. Those scenes saved the episode from being a complete failure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2014, 01:59:05 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 20, 2014, 09:20:24 AM
I'm wondering about with the stuff in the Eyrie....Am I totally misremembering the books or is everything much more explicit here? I can't remember a kiss and Lysa outright admitting to killing her husband (though it was pretty much said IIRC).
The TV show seems to be going very quickly in the Eyrie. It has almost caught up with the books there.
And...have we seen anyone else in the Eyrie yet? It always seems to be just Lysa, Robin, Sansa and Littlefinger, alone in the big halls :lol:
Yes, things are moving along there at a right smart clip.  Part of that is because the writing about the Eyrie was so dull and plodding that HBO couldn't do that on TV and survive,the other part is that they are telling a complex story in about 3500 minutes, and the Eyrie part is such a tiny portion of the whole that they can't afford to dick around.  We are already in the second half of the whole series.

The lack of extras for the Eyrie is probably much along the same lines; with only X dollars to spend costuming extras, better to save the extras for the cities than show them in the isolated mountain hideaways.  Their absence there is probably more striking than the producers anticipated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2014, 02:16:27 PM
Thinking about it, it seems to me that the show has smartened up the story about Lysa's death.  In the books, Lysa's conversation with Littlefinger about how she always loved him, killed Jon Arryn, and betrayed her sister all take place in the hearing of the her bard.  That would represent a huge problem for Littlefinger, even though he planned to frame the bard, because the bard could tell anyone and, even if not believed, would at least have told a story worth the re-telling.  The key to Littlefinger's success and survival is that, as he notes, he doesn't appear to have a motive for killing Jon and setting up Eddard to be executed.  If the murder of Lysa went down as in the books, that key could be lost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 20, 2014, 02:45:04 PM
The bard has a name you know....Marillion!

Anyway...It seems like the Eyrie as well as the Brienne/Podrick thing are from book 4...the rest is still book 3 stuff. I think. I'm only 3/4ths way through book 4


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 20, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
Prep yourself for a totally lame-o ending Jo Jo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 20, 2014, 02:45:04 PM
The bard has a name you know....Marillion!

Anyway...It seems like the Eyrie as well as the Brienne/Podrick thing are from book 4...the rest is still book 3 stuff. I think. I'm only 3/4ths way through book 4

The Eyrie until now was book 3, from now on it'll be book 4, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 20, 2014, 02:16:27 PM
The key to Littlefinger's success and survival is that, as he notes, he doesn't appear to have a motive for killing Jon and setting up Eddard to be executed.  If the murder of Lysa went down as in the books, that key could be lost.

:lol:

No one will ever suspect him now.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2014, 03:56:15 PM
I'm a bit unclear how nobody noticed he went missing right after Joffrey's assassination.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 20, 2014, 03:57:26 PM
Who went missing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 03:56:15 PM
I'm a bit unclear how nobody noticed he went missing right after Joffrey's assassination.  :hmm:

He didnt.  He had left well before the wedding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2014, 04:07:47 PM
Ah, ok. Where do the Lannisters think he went?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 04:07:47 PM
Ah, ok. Where do the Lannisters think he went?

Where he is.  :)

The book does a better job of explaining all of this.   Sansa is supposed to be pretending to be someone else so as to avoid detection.  I can understand why a viewer of the show would be confused about what is going on and why the Lannisters wouldnt be able to put 2 and 2 together to such an obvious plot.  The answer is the plot isnt supposed to be so obvious.  The book spends a fair amount of time going through the potential suspects to Joffrey's murder.  The show just blurts out the answer.

This season has been a huge disappointment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 04:07:47 PM
Ah, ok. Where do the Lannisters think he went?

Wasn't it them who sent him to wiggle in at the Eyrie?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 20, 2014, 04:11:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 20, 2014, 02:45:04 PM
The bard has a name you know....Marillion!

Anyway...It seems like the Eyrie as well as the Brienne/Podrick thing are from book 4...the rest is still book 3 stuff. I think. I'm only 3/4ths way through book 4

The Eyrie until now was book 3, from now on it'll be book 4, IIRC.

Right. Book 4 has Marillion keeping the boy awake at nights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 20, 2014, 04:12:26 PM
Convenient. :shifty:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 20, 2014, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 09:47:06 AM
Lysa admitted it too in the novels, but only before LF kicked her down the hole.
I hope she told him before he kicked her down the hole.  I doubt she would admit if after!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 20, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 04:07:47 PM
Ah, ok. Where do the Lannisters think he went?

Wasn't it them who sent him to wiggle in at the Eyrie?

Yes, precisely.  The Lannisters think that Littlefinger is their guy.  They made him lord of Harenhal and they have sent him to neutralize any potential threat that the Eyrie might pose.  If he took a female companion or two as his "nieces," who could possibly be surprised?

People who don't understand the difference between books and visual media tend to think that visual media can spend time on empty exposition like books do, but that's not how it works.  When you are converting 7,000 or so pages of text to 3500 minutes or so of video, you can't just have people standing around talking about who they think killed Joffrey - even for those who are otnay ootay ightbra and think deleting such exposition is just "dumbing down" the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 20, 2014, 04:43:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 04:07:47 PM
Ah, ok. Where do the Lannisters think he went?

Where he is.  :)

The book does a better job of explaining all of this.   Sansa is supposed to be pretending to be someone else so as to avoid detection.  I can understand why a viewer of the show would be confused about what is going on and why the Lannisters wouldnt be able to put 2 and 2 together to such an obvious plot.  The answer is the plot isnt supposed to be so obvious.  The book spends a fair amount of time going through the potential suspects to Joffrey's murder.  The show just blurts out the answer.

This season has been a huge disappointment.
They don't lose anytime in the books, Cersei screams that Tyrion is the killer, he is arrested, jailed, and put on a mockery of a trial.
They also search for his wife who has dissapeared, so they assume she was part of it.
There really isn't much difference between the books and the tv show on this, save for the necklace instead of the hair piece (ah, the tragedy! they changed that!  The show is all ruined now, nothing will work anymore!)

From the Wiki:
Quote
During his wedding feast in the throne room, Joffrey's wine is poisoned and he dies on the first day of the 3rd Century since Aegon's Landing while the entire court looks on, his face turning black as he asphyxiates while tearing at his throat.[2] Cersei blames the deed on Tyrion and Sansa, but it is later revealed that the plot was orchestrated by Olenna Redwyne and Petyr Baelish. Joffrey is laid in state in the castle sept in gilded armor, and when Jaime returns to King's Landing he makes love to Cersei in front of the corpse.[21] He is ultimately laid to rest in the Great Sept of Baelor.[22] Due to the color of the amethysts used to poison Joffrey's wine, and the actual color of the wine, the wedding has since been referred to by fans as the Purple Wedding.

Joffrey, with the exception of his mother, is not particularly mourned by anyone; even his biological father, Jaime Lannister, feels that Joffrey deserved his fate. Tyrion Lannister states that Joffrey would have become a worse king than the Mad King. Arys Oakheart thinks the only good thing that could be said of Joffrey is that he was tall and strong for his age.
Not so much differences here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 04:45:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 20, 2014, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 20, 2014, 09:47:06 AM
Lysa admitted it too in the novels, but only before LF kicked her down the hole.
I hope she told him before he kicked her down the hole.  I doubt she would admit if after!

I mean right before being kicked down. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 20, 2014, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Where he is.  :)

The book does a better job of explaining all of this.   Sansa is supposed to be pretending to be someone else so as to avoid detection.
So, they should have spend time filming their travel, having Sansa posing as someone else all the while, and Littlefinger telling a few dozen people he travels with his niece?
Exactly what would be the point of showing that on tv?  Sansa has been told she must not reveal who she really is outside of her aunt&cousin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2014, 08:52:13 PM
The only thing I didn't like about the show this week was Clegane just hanging out randomly killing people. In Kings Landing.

Because that is apparently what he does when he isn't off aping and pillaging. He just goes down somewhere, some of his guards apparently round up some random people, and he kills them with his giant sword in as messy a manner as possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2014, 08:55:35 PM
I guess they were criminals (probably wrongfully convicted) who he wanted to have a bit of fun executing
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 20, 2014, 10:06:06 PM
As Grumbler would say...they were trying to show that he's one big MOFO in a visual way, without going through 110 pages of exposition
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2014, 10:52:24 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 20, 2014, 10:06:06 PM
As Grumbler would say...they were trying to show that he's one big MOFO in a visual way, without going through 110 pages of exposition

I pretty mcuh agree with grumblers assessment when it comes to the different manner in which the TV medium tries to tell the same story in a different manner, actually.

But in this case, it is just kind of ridiculous. There are all kinds of visual manners in which you can tell the story the Sandor Clegane is a ridiculously huge, powerful, and incredilbe straight up fighter without having him hang out butchering hapless non-fighters for sheer sport that simply doesn't really make any sense.

Who are these people? Why are they all rounded up and being thrown at the Mountain? In Kings Landing, where Tywin Lannister is in charge? This is how they execute criminals? They don't have an executioner apparently anymore, they just throw them in some sandy area, give them weapons, and then make them try to fight Sandor Clegane? *After* Joffrey is dead this is how it works?

It just doesn't make any sense on so many levels.

Hell, even if you assume all this is normal - this is where Cersei decides to go chat with him about being her Champion in the trial by combat? The Queen regent doesn't simply summon him for a chat, she goes and wades into this charnel house, where desperate men are being given weapons to fight to the death against the Mountain for some reason?

The entire scene is just a bit ridiculous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 06:30:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2014, 10:52:24 PM
I pretty mcuh agree with grumblers assessment when it comes to the different manner in which the TV medium tries to tell the same story in a different manner, actually.

But in this case, it is just kind of ridiculous. There are all kinds of visual manners in which you can tell the story the Sandor Clegane is a ridiculously huge, powerful, and incredilbe straight up fighter without having him hang out butchering hapless non-fighters for sheer sport that simply doesn't really make any sense.

Who are these people? Why are they all rounded up and being thrown at the Mountain? In Kings Landing, where Tywin Lannister is in charge? This is how they execute criminals? They don't have an executioner apparently anymore, they just throw them in some sandy area, give them weapons, and then make them try to fight Sandor Clegane? *After* Joffrey is dead this is how it works?

It just doesn't make any sense on so many levels.

Hell, even if you assume all this is normal - this is where Cersei decides to go chat with him about being her Champion in the trial by combat? The Queen regent doesn't simply summon him for a chat, she goes and wades into this charnel house, where desperate men are being given weapons to fight to the death against the Mountain for some reason?

The entire scene is just a bit ridiculous.

Absolutely agree.  The whole scene was unnecessary and silly.  The only excuse I can think of for the producers is that the audience hasn't seen Clegane since the second season (and even then he was acted by a different actor), so wanted some means of introducing him to the audience that was more dramatic than simply ushering him into the queen's presence and saying "Gregor Clegane, your Grace."   They should have stayed with simple, and used the extra time to show people sitting around speculating on "who killed Joffrey?," in order to please the simple-minded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 07:22:57 AM
It was a weird scene.

The Night's Watch needed those prisoners.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 08:23:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 07:22:57 AM
It was a weird scene.

The Night's Watch needed those prisoners.

Indeed it was a weird scene. I got a kick out of Cersei going there so casually but still found it odd overall. But as mentioned, it was probably a way to quickly re-introduce Clegane to the audience.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 08:47:55 AM
Oh yeah. We needed it. Last time we saw him was in season 2 and we're already on the 3rd actor playing the Mountain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 11:25:54 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 20, 2014, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 20, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Where he is.  :)

The book does a better job of explaining all of this.   Sansa is supposed to be pretending to be someone else so as to avoid detection.
So, they should have spend time filming their travel, having Sansa posing as someone else all the while, and Littlefinger telling a few dozen people he travels with his niece?
Exactly what would be the point of showing that on tv?  Sansa has been told she must not reveal who she really is outside of her aunt&cousin.

You have a point.  Given that they have dumbed down that part so much that there isnt anybody around to interact with it that series of events becomes fairly bland and not much effort was devoted to the story in that regard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 11:26:53 AM
It's ok tho because that would have been even more boring than the already boring part when Sansa is present.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 11:39:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 08:47:55 AM
Oh yeah. We needed it. Last time we saw him was in season 2 and we're already on the 3rd actor playing the Mountain.
In the books, we were much more exposed to The Mountain's bestial nature, what with he and his gang committing much more explicitly horrific crimes in the Riverlands than they could show on TV.  When you see what is about to happen to him, you will understand why the producers want him to be as unsympathetic as possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2014, 11:56:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 11:39:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 08:47:55 AM
Oh yeah. We needed it. Last time we saw him was in season 2 and we're already on the 3rd actor playing the Mountain.
In the books, we were much more exposed to The Mountain's bestial nature, what with he and his gang committing much more explicitly horrific crimes in the Riverlands than they could show on TV.  When you see what is about to happen to him, you will understand why the producers want him to be as unsympathetic as possible.

Yeah, I don't have any issue at all with the what they were trying to accomplish with the scene.

I can imagine there is a blocking note in the initial script there that says <Need scene here to remind everyone what a total badass/douchebag/monster Sandor Clegane is...>.

I just think their execution of said was, well, incredibly terrible.

Like they had their 14 year old intern write it or something. Maybe someone's little brother.

"Oh man, yeah, Clegane is totally badass! Lets have him just chopping dudes up for no apparent reason! It will be so cool! Then Cersei can come strolling through the entrails and shit! Suh-weeeeeet!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 12:02:22 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 11:26:53 AM
It's ok tho because that would have been even more boring than the already boring part when Sansa is present.

I dont know.  They could have presented the actual plot fairly quickly and in keeping with Littlefinger's character.  It would be very easy to have a couple of scenes which include the Ministral, have Sansa perform her charade and pin all the blame on the murder on the Minstral.

Also the viewer completely misses Littlefinger's attempts to change Sansa's personality for his own purposes.

For those who like a direct uncomplicated story the show does that very well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 12:10:21 PM
Any minute Sansa is on the screen is wasted minute. Less is more.

We've spent too much time dealing with Dany in season 1 when it was boring. The show runners learned their lesson.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 12:13:46 PM
Man I love Sansa I have been dying waiting for a freaking new Sansa chapter for almost a decade now.  She is the closest thing to a normal person in this series.

But I guess that is not exactly riveting TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 12:19:16 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 12:10:21 PM
Any minute Sansa is on the screen is wasted minute. Less is more.

We've spent too much time dealing with Dany in season 1 when it was boring. The show runners learned their lesson.

Even in the books Sansa is a weak character, so naive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 12:19:16 PM
Even in the books Sansa is a weak character, so naive.

I am sure in that situation you would have ripped out your twin machine guns and kicked ass like a boss.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 21, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Sansa is a great character, but people prefer little-girls-turned-ninja-wizards and obese-guys-who-magically-stay-obese-after-months-of-hunger-and-cold, so whatchagonnado.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Sansa is a great character, but people prefer little-girls-turned-ninja-wizards and obese-guys-who-magically-stay-obese-after-months-of-hunger-and-cold, so whatchagonnado.

I mean if we want to read about helpless characters, we can just chat with some of the members of the forum.

I don't like Sansa in the books because she didn't seem to have a lot of growth for a long time. She kept to childlike naivete time and time again.  Meanwhile her next of kin (Arya) became a warrior woman in a few seconds flat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:25:07 PM
I don't like Sansa in the books because she didn't seem to have a lot of growth for a long time. She kept to childlike naivete time and time again.  Meanwhile her next of kin (Arya) became a warrior woman in a few seconds flat.

I don't know the stakes kept being raised.  One guy whose life you saved wanting to help you doesn't seem too far fetched. 

In any case I started to get really pumped in AFFC because it seemed like she was growing and learning...and then nothing in the last book.  Damn it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 12:38:09 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 12:19:16 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 12:10:21 PM
Any minute Sansa is on the screen is wasted minute. Less is more.

We've spent too much time dealing with Dany in season 1 when it was boring. The show runners learned their lesson.

Even in the books Sansa is a weak character, so naive.

I agree.  What happens around her and the interaction she has with the main characters (ie how she is manipulated) is the interesting part.  We lose a lot of that with Balish in the current season.  So I dont disgree with GF but I do think the show could have made the plot lines involving her both more accurate and more interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 21, 2014, 12:40:01 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Sansa is a great character, but people prefer little-girls-turned-ninja-wizards and obese-guys-who-magically-stay-obese-after-months-of-hunger-and-cold, so whatchagonnado.

I mean if we want to read about helpless characters, we can just chat with some of the members of the forum.



OH SNAP
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:42:17 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 21, 2014, 12:40:01 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Sansa is a great character, but people prefer little-girls-turned-ninja-wizards and obese-guys-who-magically-stay-obese-after-months-of-hunger-and-cold, so whatchagonnado.

I mean if we want to read about helpless characters, we can just chat with some of the members of the forum.



OH SNAP

I thought about naming names but then thought about the impact that might have on my karma. -_-
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
Wait, you worry about karma?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
Wait, you worry about karma?

Part and parcel of my Indian heritage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
Wait, you worry about karma?

Part and parcel of my Indian heritage.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 12:44:42 PM
Not this again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 12:44:42 PM
Not this again.

:hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 12:49:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2014, 11:56:07 AM
Yeah, I don't have any issue at all with the what they were trying to accomplish with the scene.

I can imagine there is a blocking note in the initial script there that says <Need scene here to remind everyone what a total badass/douchebag/monster Sandor Clegane is...>.

I just think their execution of said was, well, incredibly terrible.

Like they had their 14 year old intern write it or something. Maybe someone's little brother.

"Oh man, yeah, Clegane is totally badass! Lets have him just chopping dudes up for no apparent reason! It will be so cool! Then Cersei can come strolling through the entrails and shit! Suh-weeeeeet!"

Agree completely.  It was a ham-handed way of handling the issue.  Sometimes, even HBO fucks up.

This was written by Benioff and Weiss, though, so that explains why the producers didn't tell the writer to come up with a better idea!  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 12:53:21 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 12:19:16 PM
Even in the books Sansa is a weak character, so naive.

True.  The books are very much dumbed down so that even people who are otnay ootay ightbray can follow the complex story.  TV is more subtle and has no time or wasted motion, so you have to be a bit quicker to catch all of the nuances.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 12:54:36 PM
 :lol:

Passive aggressiveness for the win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 01:05:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:25:07 PM
I don't like Sansa in the books because she didn't seem to have a lot of growth for a long time. She kept to childlike naivete time and time again.  Meanwhile her next of kin (Arya) became a warrior woman in a few seconds flat.

I don't know the stakes kept being raised.  One guy whose life you saved wanting to help you doesn't seem too far fetched. 

In any case I started to get really pumped in AFFC because it seemed like she was growing and learning...and then nothing in the last book.  Damn it.

Sansa goes into a state of denial after Ned gets executed, so she interacts with others less and so is less interesting.  Like you, I think that this is okay and natural.  I also agree that she is coming out of it in the Eyrie, and rather suspect that Littlefinger of gonna get his little scheme crushed by her before it is all over.

All in all, I find her story more credible than Arya's by far, and am more interested in seeing her revenge than Arya's.

This assumes, of course, that she works out that the whole Westeros crisis was fomented by Littlefinger so that he could maneuver Ned into a position where he would be killed, leaving Katelyn to be comforted by LF.*  In fact, I think that we will discover that the real reason LF killed Joffrey was so Joff could never tell anyone that it was LF who convinced Joff to break Tywin's deal with Ned Stark.

*Katelyn's death being unanticipated, of course... and, in any case, LF seems willing to transfer his infatuation to Sansa, who closely resembles her mother at her age.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
Grumbler, those are good points. In the books I'm waiting to see what Sansa becomes, as I also felt she was growing out of her shell by the time she was in the Aerie. She's the eldest surviving inheritor of Winterfell and I'm thinking that she'll play quite a large part later on. I haven't yet read the latest book so I don't know what the latest is with her, but that's my guess.

I like Arya well enough but in the books her story line goes overseas and she gets into some odd happenings, which has me wondering if or how she'll play out in the end game.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
I haven't yet read the latest book so I don't know what the latest is with her, but that's my guess.

Nothing.  Not a damn thing.  Man that was disappointing to me.  First non-Sansa book of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 21, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
I haven't yet read the latest book so I don't know what the latest is with her, but that's my guess.

Nothing.  Not a damn thing.  Man that was disappointing to me.  First non-Sansa book of the series.

Fear not, wikipedia says that Winds of Winter will have Sansa PoV. Guaranteed to not be published before 2015.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 21, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
I haven't yet read the latest book so I don't know what the latest is with her, but that's my guess.

Nothing.  Not a damn thing.  Man that was disappointing to me.  First non-Sansa book of the series.

Fear not, wikipedia says that Winds of Winter will have Sansa PoV. Guaranteed to not be published before 2015.

If it comes out in 2015 that will be a win.  I would start to have hope that the series will be finished if that happened.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2014, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Sansa is a great character, but people prefer little-girls-turned-ninja-wizards and obese-guys-who-magically-stay-obese-after-months-of-hunger-and-cold, so whatchagonnado.

I mean if we want to read about helpless characters, we can just chat with some of the members of the forum.

I don't like Sansa in the books because she didn't seem to have a lot of growth for a long time. She kept to childlike naivete time and time again.  Meanwhile her next of kin (Arya) became a warrior woman in a few seconds flat.

I actually like Sansa in part because she has had some profound growth. The line "My Lord I pray for your safe return just like I pray for the King's", which she says to Tyrion, is the coldest thing said by anybody at any time in the entire series. She is already half way from being a piece to a player by the time she escapes King's Landing. She knows what moves she wants to make but is incapable of making them. The tipping point comes some place between The Hound wanting to take Sansa when he flees Kings Landing (not shown in the show and shows how Ramsey Snow and Joffrey are alike, at least in their effect on people) and her running off with Ser Dontos. She goes from wanting to be rescued (which is what she thinks the Tyrells are doing when they try to marry her) to wanting to escape herself. By the time she asks Littlefinger how much he's going to reward Yohn Royce for "that service" she's probably gone through the longest character arc of any character so far. Apart from gaining confidence everybody else (except Jamie) becomes more of what they were already, she changes. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
I haven't yet read the latest book so I don't know what the latest is with her, but that's my guess.

Nothing.  Not a damn thing.  Man that was disappointing to me.  First non-Sansa book of the series.

So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 02:01:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 01:05:40 PM
Sansa goes into a state of denial after Ned gets executed, so she interacts with others less and so is less interesting.  Like you, I think that this is okay and natural.

I'll say that's fair but that what's natural isn't necessarily interesting.* It might be very natural for a depressed person to set around at home doing very little but that won't translate easily into an interesting story unless you "fake" it a bit.

*not that you were at all saying that, just that my dislike wasn't from it being impossible to understand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2014, 02:04:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 21, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
I haven't yet read the latest book so I don't know what the latest is with her, but that's my guess.

Nothing.  Not a damn thing.  Man that was disappointing to me.  First non-Sansa book of the series.

So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

I like TV bran better than book bran, but, I agree, sansa, bran and arya are all three in a holding pattern waiting for the plot to give them an opportunity to be relevant again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 02:06:32 PM
Actually I guess I should revise my statement. I don't take issue with Sansa as a character featured - I just don't care all that much for her POV.

Lamentably, I can't say much with regards to perception on show (other than first season) as I put a pause on my viewership long ago when Danerys was doing fuck all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

What can I say?  I like stories of the 'every man' (or little girl or whatever) in extra-ordinary circumstances.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:08:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

What can I say?  I like stories of the 'every man' (or little girl or whatever) in extra-ordinary circumstances.

She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 02:08:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

What can I say?  I like stories of the 'every man' (or little girl or whatever) in extra-ordinary circumstances.

Whereas while I don't dislike the every man character - I'm not that interested in reading what a child, acting like an actual child, has to think about situations.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 02:06:32 PM
Actually I guess I should revise my statement. I don't take issue with Sansa as a character featured - I just don't care all that much for her POV.

This I can quite agree with.  Bran (as you note) as well.  For that matter, I could have done without Samwell Tarley and at least 80% of Theon Greyjoy.  More Barristan Selmy instead of Danaerys would work, as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:12:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 02:08:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

What can I say?  I like stories of the 'every man' (or little girl or whatever) in extra-ordinary circumstances.

Whereas while I don't dislike the every man character - I'm not that interested in reading what a child, acting like an actual child, has to think about situations.

Yeah, the interesting thing about everyday people in extra ordinary situations is that they tend to rise to the occasion.  Sansa mainly just sulks along because the world isnt as she thought it was, or should be, for a Princess.  That is what makes her story line painfully boring for me.

She might break out of that mold in the next book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:08:07 PM
She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.

In the dumbed-down version, she caused her father to be killed.  In reality, she just thinks that she caused him to be killed.  He was doomed from the start.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:08:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 21, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

What can I say?  I like stories of the 'every man' (or little girl or whatever) in extra-ordinary circumstances.

She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.

I disagree.  She went to the Lannisters after LF had already launched his coup, the only thing she accomplished was getting herself easily captured.  The fact that Martin left this out in the TV episode he wrote clearly shows this was not his intention in the books either.  Cersei only said it to Tyrion because she did not want to admit it was all LF's work and not her cleverness.

Secondly yes she is a noble (a completely powerless one...), but it is more about her reactions and capabilities that make her an every man story for me.  That is pretty much how I would have reacted in her circumstances...at her age probably a great deal worse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:12:30 PM
Yeah, the interesting thing about everyday people in extra ordinary situations is that they tend to rise to the occasion.  Sansa mainly just sulks along because the world isnt as she thought it was, or should be, for a Princess.  That is what makes her story line painfully boring for me.

That is an important part of growing up.  I certainly did my fair share of that.  And she does not just sulk.  She openly defies Joffrey at times and shows real strength.  I suppose you would have risked your life for that drunk knight?

QuoteShe might break out of that mold in the next book.

I think she already has done that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 21, 2014, 02:23:32 PM
Sansa haters are gonna hate. They are homosexuals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2014, 02:34:21 PM
Going back to Cersei, though and the criticism that she just happened to be walking there. I agree the scene was highly contrived but I always took it that Cersei knew whom she was looking for and where to find him. True her character would likely send a minion to go fetch him, but in anycase I don't think she quite stumbled over the intestitines and found him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2014, 03:24:16 PM
Huh.

It is funny seeing the complaints people make about Sansa, and who is making them.

CC, to me, is complaining that

1. Sansa is boring, and
2. The show dumbed down the books.

What is odd to me is that I look at the Bran and Sansa stories as the most intellectually non-lazy in the entire series - to really appreciate those stories requires one to actually think a bit about what is happening to these people, and why they are responding in the manner they are in a rather nuanced manner.

Sure, it isn't nearly as "cool" as Arya turning into an assassin...it isn't as exciting as Rob declaring himself King, or Jon fighting Wildlings or even Dany finding some handy dragons. And all those things are great fun.

But I think of the Sansa story as much more, well, mature, than many of the other arcs. I find it kind of funny that the same people complaining about the show or books being "dumbed down" are also complaining about the more sophisticated story arcs that are not so simplistically gratifying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 21, 2014, 03:38:54 PM
I assume you mean person? I don't recall saying anything about the show being dumbed down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:12:30 PM
Yeah, the interesting thing about everyday people in extra ordinary situations is that they tend to rise to the occasion.  Sansa mainly just sulks along because the world isnt as she thought it was, or should be, for a Princess.  That is what makes her story line painfully boring for me.

That is an important part of growing up.  I certainly did my fair share of that.  And she does not just sulk.  She openly defies Joffrey at times and shows real strength.  I suppose you would have risked your life for that drunk knight?

QuoteShe might break out of that mold in the next book.

I think she already has done that.

You were a Princess?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:44:08 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 02:08:07 PM
She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.

In the dumbed-down version, she caused her father to be killed.  In reality, she just thinks that she caused him to be killed.  He was doomed from the start.

It is amusing to watch you have to contort yourself into an argument that it is the books that are dumbed down.  You will do anything out of spite won't you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
You were a Princess?

No but I had certain expectations on how life was supposed to be based on romantic childish notions. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
You were a Princess?

No but I had certain expectations on how life was supposed to be based on romantic childish notions.

Yeah, but that is her character.  She was raised to belief those things were realistic expectations. And more importantly they were about to be realized.  Her character is believable because she reacts the way one would expect.  I just find it boring. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
You were a Princess?

No but I had certain expectations on how life was supposed to be based on romantic childish notions.

Yeah, but that is her character.  She was raised to belief those things were realistic expectations. And more importantly they were about to be realized.  Her character is believable because she reacts the way one would expect.  I just find it boring. 

Well I don't.  I think it is quite interesting to see how she deals with reality and grows wise from it.  More to the point I see alot of myself in her and you don't and that's fair.

I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

If things had gone according to plan she would have been married to the Prince of her dreams and she would have become Queen after the long reign of a King who had been guided by the wise counsel of her father.

Martin did a very good job of setting the initial story book setting - and then utterly destroying it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:44:08 PM
It is amusing to watch you have to contort yourself into an argument that it is the books that are dumbed down.  You will do anything out of spite won't you?

:lmfao:  You don't get "irony" at all, do you?  I am not actually arguing that the books were dumbed down.  From what could they be dumbed down?

I am arguing that you don't seem to get the subtleties of the books or the show. For instance, the fact that Ned dies because Littlefinger wanted him dead.  That was his plan all along.  That was the whole purpose of having Jon Arryn murdered, and having Lysa send the letter to Katelyn, and leading Ned step-by-step to the truth about Cersei's children.  I'll admit that I am speculating that he was going to kill Joffrey all along to hide his (speculative) role in convincing Joffrey to betray the deal with Ned, but it all fits.  Someone convinced Joffrey to defy Tywin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

If things had gone according to plan she would have been married to the Prince of her dreams and she would have become Queen after the long reign of a King who had been guided by the wise counsel of her father.

Martin did a very good job of setting the initial story book setting - and then utterly destroying it.

No she would have been married to Joffrey.  You are describing her fantasy scenario.  Even if Joffrey had been a decent enough person and not the psychopath he was, reality of being consort to a King was going to be tough on her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:09:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:44:08 PM
It is amusing to watch you have to contort yourself into an argument that it is the books that are dumbed down.  You will do anything out of spite won't you?

:lmfao:  You don't get "irony" at all, do you?

Oh I do.  It is your passive aggressive behaviour I have trouble with.   Well that and your constant character trait of claiming the opposite whenever you get caught out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:10:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:07:16 PM
No she would have been married to Joffrey.  You are describing her fantasy scenario.  Even if Joffrey had been a decent enough person and not the psychopath he was, reality of being consort to a King was going to be tough on her.

Tough in many ways, yes.  But she was the daughter of one of the major nobles in the country.  She knew that she was going to be married off for dynastic reasons, not love.  Her dream that she would love the man she was going to be married to was always just a dream.  She did, however, have the example of her parents as people who were married for dynastic reasons and learned to love one another.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:12:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

If things had gone according to plan she would have been married to the Prince of her dreams and she would have become Queen after the long reign of a King who had been guided by the wise counsel of her father.

Martin did a very good job of setting the initial story book setting - and then utterly destroying it.

No she would have been married to Joffrey.  You are describing her fantasy scenario.  Even if Joffrey had been a decent enough person and not the psychopath he was, reality of being consort to a King was going to be tough on her.

Yes, go back and read the first few chapters of book 1.  It was set up as exactly her dream come true.  Irrc her mother even says so in the book.  The fantasy starts getting striped away though as it dawns on her that Joffrey isnt the Prince of her dreams (as he first appeared) and of course she descends into hell after her father is executed - due in part to her actions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:13:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:09:54 PM
Oh I do.  It is your passive aggressive behaviour I have trouble with. 
:lol:  Maybe you do get irony, after all.   That's the most ironic statement yet!

QuoteWell that and your constant character trait of claiming the opposite whenever you get caught out.

I claim the opposite of what you tell me I think, yes.  But do keep it up.  It is most amusing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:12:43 PM
Yes, go back and read the first few chapters of book 1.  It was set up as exactly her dream come true.  Irrc her mother even says so in the book.  The fantasy starts getting striped away though as it dawns on her that Joffrey isnt the Prince of her dreams (as he first appeared) and of course she descends into hell after her father is executed - due in part to her actions.

Of course, children have dreams that are not based on reality.  Her father's execution had nothing to do with her at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:12:43 PM
Yes, go back and read the first few chapters of book 1.  It was set up as exactly her dream come true.  Irrc her mother even says so in the book.  The fantasy starts getting striped away though as it dawns on her that Joffrey isnt the Prince of her dreams (as he first appeared) and of course she descends into hell after her father is executed - due in part to her actions.

Of course, children have dreams that are not based on reality. 

Yes, of course. But hers were based on reality.


QuoteHer father's execution had nothing to do with her at all.

You really should go back and re-read the first book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
You really should go back and re-read the first book.

I have spent waaaay too much time dissecting that section.  I went over every sentence and put together an exact  time line and spent hours upon hours proving my case on the ASoIAF way back in the day.  So no I do not see the reason to debate this anymore or read that section a 500th time.  I suggest you go back and re-read the first book because it is clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:54:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
You really should go back and re-read the first book.

I have spent waaaay too much time dissecting that section.  I went over every sentence and put together an exact  time line and spent hours upon hours proving my case on the ASoIAF way back in the day.  So no I do not see the reason to debate this anymore or read that section a 500th time.  I suggest you go back and re-read the first book because it is clear.
:yes:  Had Sansa never come south, Ned would have met the exact same fate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:57:00 PM
Wow it looks so sad seeing it posted like that  :blush:

Ah internet how many hours have I wasted?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:59:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:57:00 PM
Wow it looks so sad seeing it posted like that  :blush:

Ah internet how many hours have I wasted?

They were not wasted, any more than time spent in university courses in the humanities is wasted.  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2014, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:59:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:57:00 PM
Wow it looks so sad seeing it posted like that  :blush:

Ah internet how many hours have I wasted?

They were not wasted, any more than time spent in university courses in the humanities is wasted.  :hug:

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:19:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 04:54:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
You really should go back and re-read the first book.

I have spent waaaay too much time dissecting that section.  I went over every sentence and put together an exact  time line and spent hours upon hours proving my case on the ASoIAF way back in the day.  So no I do not see the reason to debate this anymore or read that section a 500th time.  I suggest you go back and re-read the first book because it is clear.
:yes:  Had Sansa never come south, Ned would have met the exact same fate.

No

Sansa said

"I want Joffrey and I will give him a son with beautiful golden hair who will be the greatest king there ever was, as brave as a wolf and as proud as a lion"

followed by

"He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king"

at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:19:39 PM
No

Sansa said

"I want Joffrey and I will give him a son with beautiful golden hair who will be the greatest king there ever was, as brave as a wolf and as proud as a lion"

followed by

"He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king"

at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

No.

Littlefinger had, by that point, already guided Ned to the truth.  He had told Ned about the blacksmith's apprentice, had already set up Ned's arrest by lying to Cat about the dagger, and had already (apparently) made sure that the Cersei knew about Ned's investigations.  The most you can say is that Sansa's presence made Ned more cautious, but since Littlefinger had set this all up before he ever knew Sansa was coming south, you can be sure his trap didn't depend on her presence.

Ned died because that was the whole point of the whole exercise of him becoming the Hand of the King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2014, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:19:39 PM
at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

Sounds more like Ned serves as Robert's Hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:42:06 PM
<snip>

the only way to win is to not play...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 21, 2014, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:19:39 PM
at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

Sounds more like Ned serves as Robert's Hand.

How does Sansa not being in KL keep Robert from getting drunk while hunting?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2014, 05:53:31 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-GSOHCVPfA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-GSOHCVPfA)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 06:02:42 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2014, 05:43:23 PM
How does Sansa not being in KL keep Robert from getting drunk while hunting?

That's just the means, not the cause, of the King's death.  To imagine that Cersei wouldn't have killed Robert even without the impulse of saving her children from the revelation about their sire is illogical.  She hated him for many reasons unrelated to Ned's investigations, as Littlefinger well knew.  Robert was a dead man walking from before the start of the show.  The key event is the death of Ned, not the death of Robert.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2014, 06:02:59 PM
Sansa's comment might have been the catalyst for Ned pulling it all together, but Littefinger very carefully laid out all the crumbs for him. He was going to find out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 21, 2014, 06:09:43 PM
OK, sansa doesn't go south and Robert dies from being drunk while hunting (this is what he was doing anyways - as a means of assassination it requires quite a bit of cooperation from the intended target). Ned crowns Joffrey and rules as Regent according to Robert's will. Cersei rips it up because ned warned her. That is the mercy varys talked about. With Joffrey as King, Ned as regent, made king by neds own hand, all before realizing that joffrey is a bastard. Sansa going south means that he finds out before becoming regent rather than after becoming regent. Ned dies because he desperately tries to avoid killing the children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2014, 06:12:39 PM
If Ned doesn't find out when he did, LF would make sure he found out shortly afterwards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2014, 06:40:41 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 21, 2014, 06:09:43 PM
OK, sansa doesn't go south and Robert dies from being drunk while hunting (this is what he was doing anyways - as a means of assassination it requires quite a bit of cooperation from the intended target). Ned crowns Joffrey and rules as Regent according to Robert's will. Cersei rips it up because ned warned her. That is the mercy varys talked about. With Joffrey as King, Ned as regent, made king by neds own hand, all before realizing that joffrey is a bastard. Sansa going south means that he finds out before becoming regent rather than after becoming regent. Ned dies because he desperately tries to avoid killing the children.

By the time Robert dies, Ned had already figured out that Robert was not the father of Joffrey and his sibs.  Why?  Because Littlefinger had led him to the truth.  All the clues Ned follows are from Baelish.  Why does Baelish provide the clues?  To force the lannisters to turn on Ned, because Baelish wants Ned dead and Cat a widow.  That Baelish could also make himself a power worthy of Cat's eventual love was just part of the scheme.

Ned's mercy is immaterial. Sansa's indiscretion is immaterial.  In fact, Robert's death was immaterial, except as a means of giving Cersei the power to deal with Ned.  What was material is that Littlefinger made Ned a mortal threat to Cersei, and she was ruthless enough to take him out.  Whether Robert died in the process wasn't key, though it opened the door to a war that allowed Baelish to shortcut his already-rapid rise to power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2014, 01:58:33 AM
Interesting take on the series, and it makes perfect sense. It's all about a nerd trying to finally score with his high school crush....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2014, 01:58:33 AM
Interesting take on the series, and it makes perfect sense. It's all about a nerd trying to finally score with his high school crush....
Furthermore, he forced Ned to play a game he was bad at (the Game of Thrones) and forced Ned to realize how bad he was at LF's game.  How gratifying it must have been for LF to tell Ned "I did warn you not to trust me!" It's like the nerd traps the star athlete into a game of chess to decide who takes the star cheerleader to the prom.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 23, 2014, 04:06:14 PM
The bit that I don't get is...Katelyn is going to just run into LF's arms with her husband dead?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2014, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2014, 04:06:14 PM
The bit that I don't get is...Katelyn is going to just run into LF's arms with her husband dead?

That doesn't seem likely.  The bit I don't get is... why that would be at all significant.  LF plays a deep and long-range game.  He has time to make himself into the kind of lord that Katelyn would want on her son's side, and then LF has his opening.

Remember that he thinks Katelyn wanted to marry him, but couldn't do so for dynastic reasons.  He thinks he is going to prosper enough in the chaos to make her want HIM for dynastic reasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 23, 2014, 04:15:27 PM
She will need a man...and they had history togethere, didn't they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 23, 2014, 05:41:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 23, 2014, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2014, 04:06:14 PM
The bit that I don't get is...Katelyn is going to just run into LF's arms with her husband dead?

That doesn't seem likely.  The bit I don't get is... why that would be at all significant.  LF plays a deep and long-range game.  He has time to make himself into the kind of lord that Katelyn would want on her son's side, and then LF has his opening.

Remember that he thinks Katelyn wanted to marry him, but couldn't do so for dynastic reasons.  He thinks he is going to prosper enough in the chaos to make her want HIM for dynastic reasons.

I think it is also reasonable to note that regardless of how smart LF is when it comes to nearly everything, that doesn't mean he has a clue about his own emotions and how someone like Katelyn might react to changing circumstances.

He strikes me as the classic brilliant genius who doesn't necessarily realize that not everyone can be manipulated in the manner he thinks, and while he might be able to arrange the death of Ned Stark, that doesn't mean that people he thinks will react in a particular manner to that situation WILL react in that manner.

And when it comes to Katelyn, he has been deluding himself for a long, long time. He really thought fighting a duel would win her over. He probaby is not really capable of accepting that Catelyn would never love him, especially the man he has become. Whatever feelings she may have had for the boy who was willing to engage in a hopeless duel for her are not likely to translate into attraction for a man as devious and underhanded as he has become.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 23, 2014, 05:41:39 PM
I think it is also reasonable to note that regardless of how smart LF is when it comes to nearly everything, that doesn't mean he has a clue about his own emotions and how someone like Katelyn might react to changing circumstances.

He strikes me as the classic brilliant genius who doesn't necessarily realize that not everyone can be manipulated in the manner he thinks, and while he might be able to arrange the death of Ned Stark, that doesn't mean that people he thinks will react in a particular manner to that situation WILL react in that manner.

And when it comes to Katelyn, he has been deluding himself for a long, long time. He really thought fighting a duel would win her over. He probaby is not really capable of accepting that Catelyn would never love him, especially the man he has become. Whatever feelings she may have had for the boy who was willing to engage in a hopeless duel for her are not likely to translate into attraction for a man as devious and underhanded as he has become.

I quite agree.  Further, he could be deluding himself into thinking he is amassing power for romantic reasons, to avoid really looking at his own real motivations.  he was born a very minor noble, and has always wanted to be seen as a great lord.  Fomenting chaos is the only way he can get what he really wants, but just getting the power he craves for its own sake is a pretty despicable motive for causing the suffering he has caused.

Though, on the other hand, his brutal treatment of Dontos and Lysa may indicate he really doesn't care how he is seen by others or himself.

I guess we will find out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on May 24, 2014, 01:10:07 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2014, 04:06:14 PM
The bit that I don't get is...Katelyn is going to just run into LF's arms with her husband dead?

LF is being delusional, he still seems to have convinced himself that when he fucked Lysa he was actually fucking Catelyn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 25, 2014, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 20, 2014, 07:53:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 20, 2014, 07:38:56 AM
I haven't read the books but I know Tyrion isn't dead.

I do wonder how he is going to survive this.

Without really spoiling anything, it involves looking for whores, nearly getting eaten by lions, being sold into slavery, short range crossbow marksmanship, getting hideously drunk, getting abducted at a whore house and, rather bizarrely making a friend who likes him for who he is not what he is. 

Edit: apart from spoiling the fact that he survives, obviously...
Edit2: or I'm pulling your leg.

You forgot swimming and pig-riding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 02, 2014, 06:09:37 AM
To all you Sansa haters out there.  :blurgh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2014, 11:15:26 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 02, 2014, 06:09:37 AM
To all you Sansa haters out there.  :blurgh:

The Sansa of the show is more confident and able than the Sansa of the books.  Especially in the scene before the inquisitors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2014, 11:15:26 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 02, 2014, 06:09:37 AM
To all you Sansa haters out there.  :blurgh:

The Sansa of the show is more confident and able than the Sansa of the books.  Especially in the scene before the inquisitors.

Haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2014, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2014, 11:15:26 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 02, 2014, 06:09:37 AM
To all you Sansa haters out there.  :blurgh:

The Sansa of the show is more confident and able than the Sansa of the books.  Especially in the scene before the inquisitors.

Haters gonna hate.

What part of that is inaccurate?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 02, 2014, 08:04:39 PM
Quote from: Liep on June 02, 2014, 06:09:37 AM
To all you Sansa haters out there.  :blurgh:

Wow, 5 minutes of non-boring footage with Sansa in 4 years and ~38hours of actual showtime.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 02, 2014, 08:08:46 PM
Sansa :wub:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 02, 2014, 10:07:23 PM
Was her hair dyed dark in last scene?


(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10301942_651468941612921_1519523612196228767_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 02, 2014, 11:00:32 PM
Dark Sansa was odd
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2014, 11:08:38 PM
Oddly hott, you mean.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2014, 11:53:28 PM
The scene with the feathers was the best she's looked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 03, 2014, 01:09:26 AM
Splat :bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 03, 2014, 02:05:19 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 02, 2014, 11:08:38 PM
Oddly hott, you mean.
That too. I've long suspected as much and felt bad for it.
But very.... Blunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 03, 2014, 03:13:37 AM
My guess: no sansa or littlefinger in the next season. They deal with martins inflating storylines by completing he arc as quick as possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 03, 2014, 03:52:57 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2014, 03:13:37 AM
My guess: no sansa or littlefinger in the next season. They deal with martins inflating storylines by completing he arc as quick as possible.

Yeah. The books have been quite obviously heading in the direction we got a glimpse at in the latest episode (Sansa growing up and showing her fangs on the side of Littlefinger). They are just allocating less time to it on TV.

Which is all ok. Martin has been too obviously cashing in on the series success with the last two books. The pace in those became glacial compared to the first 3.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 03, 2014, 05:50:16 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2014, 03:13:37 AM
My guess: no sansa or littlefinger in the next season. They deal with martins inflating storylines by completing he arc as quick as possible.
I'm not so sure they can get away with having absolutely none given how important it has been this series. I think we will see a reduced amount of appearances but still something...which will be interesting as it will poke ahead of the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 03, 2014, 08:03:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 03, 2014, 05:50:16 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2014, 03:13:37 AM
My guess: no sansa or littlefinger in the next season. They deal with martins inflating storylines by completing he arc as quick as possible.
I'm not so sure they can get away with having absolutely none given how important it has been this series. I think we will see a reduced amount of appearances but still something...which will be interesting as it will poke ahead of the books.

That would let Sophie Turner and Aiden Gillen do other stuff while everybody else is filming, possibly with a scene or two here or there. But basically, they reached the end of their arc in the books quicker than anybody else.

Next season we get to see the battle with mance and it's consequences adn we get to see stuff in essos. Dany was slowed down this seeason, just like jon snow, while Kings landing and Eirie was speeded up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on June 03, 2014, 11:18:26 AM
There were only 3 Sansa chapters in A Feast for Crows, so we probably won't see that much of her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 05, 2014, 10:30:47 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSUNo8wV.gif%3F1&hash=7b5e6c5e9cd032610258ef9ae44ef56e00ae0915)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2014, 10:32:43 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on June 03, 2014, 11:18:26 AM
There were only 3 Sansa chapters in A Feast for Crows, so we probably won't see that much of her.

They were awesome chapters though.  I loved The Lords Declarant and how Littlefinger dealt with them.  Obviously inspired by The Lords Appellant.  Littlefinger is much smarter than Richard II.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on June 05, 2014, 10:49:37 AM
I started watching this a couple of nights ago, I like it, a lot.  :)


spoiler alert:

It's a pity,[spoiler] Sean Bean's character will, I guess, meet an untimely end. :([/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 05, 2014, 04:54:51 PM
No need for spoilers for something that has already been shown on tv :)

Btw, did any of you read the latest twist in the saga?  There might be an 8th book according to GRRM' publisher...  I'm so surprised! :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 05, 2014, 05:32:58 PM
He's got to finish 6 and 7 first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2014, 08:49:13 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2014, 08:03:47 AM

Next season we get to see the battle with mance and it's consequences adn we get to see stuff in essos. Dany was slowed down this seeason, just like jon snow, while Kings landing and Eirie was speeded up.
Aren't we going to see the battle with Mance next episode?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 05, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
Hopefully they'll try to converge Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons into a more coherent story line. If I remember right, the first half of DwD overlaps with Feast for Crows and I don't see how they could afford to remove Tyrion for an entire season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2014, 09:32:34 PM
Chronological order

http://ballofbeasts.weebly.com/chapters.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 06, 2014, 03:42:27 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 05, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
Hopefully they'll try to converge Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons into a more coherent story line. If I remember right, the first half of DwD overlaps with Feast for Crows and I don't see how they could afford to remove Tyrion for an entire season.

I think if you take the speed of happenings in the first two books and apply it to the 4th and 5th, those are just one book worth of stuff, really.

I mean FFS a quarter of book 5 was about Tyrion travelling, Tolkien style.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 06, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2014, 03:42:27 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 05, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
Hopefully they'll try to converge Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons into a more coherent story line. If I remember right, the first half of DwD overlaps with Feast for Crows and I don't see how they could afford to remove Tyrion for an entire season.

I think if you take the speed of happenings in the first two books and apply it to the 4th and 5th, those are just one book worth of stuff, really.

I mean FFS a quarter of book 5 was about Tyrion travelling, Tolkien style.

they were taking the hobbit to isengard, no?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on June 06, 2014, 07:58:32 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 06, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2014, 03:42:27 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 05, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
Hopefully they'll try to converge Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons into a more coherent story line. If I remember right, the first half of DwD overlaps with Feast for Crows and I don't see how they could afford to remove Tyrion for an entire season.

I think if you take the speed of happenings in the first two books and apply it to the 4th and 5th, those are just one book worth of stuff, really.

I mean FFS a quarter of book 5 was about Tyrion travelling, Tolkien style.

they were taking the hobbit to isengard, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 06, 2014, 08:58:46 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 05, 2014, 08:49:13 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 03, 2014, 08:03:47 AM

Next season we get to see the battle with mance and it's consequences adn we get to see stuff in essos. Dany was slowed down this seeason, just like jon snow, while Kings landing and Eirie was speeded up.
Aren't we going to see the battle with Mance next episode?

I'm not sure, in the books the battle has two distinct and separate phases. It's quite possible that the set piece episode this seasons will be the first phase of hte battle with the cliff hanger being the moment before the second phase starts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 06, 2014, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2014, 03:42:27 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 05, 2014, 09:30:57 PM
Hopefully they'll try to converge Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons into a more coherent story line. If I remember right, the first half of DwD overlaps with Feast for Crows and I don't see how they could afford to remove Tyrion for an entire season.

I think if you take the speed of happenings in the first two books and apply it to the 4th and 5th, those are just one book worth of stuff, really.

I mean FFS a quarter of book 5 was about Tyrion travelling, Tolkien style.

That journey is full of action and important revelations. Those work great in a book, and I see your point that it might not work in a tv show. It was my opinion that the story really loses cohesion after Book 3, and I think the challenge for the writers will be to pull all these divergent storylines together somehow. Naturally, Tyrion is that link.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 06, 2014, 05:35:14 PM
Oberyn vs Mountain (Happy Ending)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on June 08, 2014, 07:28:17 PM
Odd seeing Wilko Johnson in this, not someone you'd expect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 12:59:54 AM
By my count the Wildlings killed those 20 men in Castle Black about five times a piece.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 09, 2014, 01:43:38 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 12:59:54 AM
By my count the Wildlings killed those 20 men in Castle Black about five times a piece.
When Ser Alliser held his speech, there were much more than 20 guys there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 09, 2014, 05:45:02 AM
The red haired wildling takes it for most predictable final words.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 09, 2014, 06:15:12 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 09, 2014, 05:45:02 AM
The red haired wildling takes it for most predictable final words.

You know nothing, Liep
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 09, 2014, 09:49:41 AM
Holy awesome episode long battle batman.
Nice to see them doing this after so cheaply skipping that one where Tyrion got bonked on the head.
Much better than King's Landing was.


I was cringing and expecting those last words. And you just know the fan girls were squee-ing.

QuoteBy my count the Wildlings killed those 20 men in Castle Black about five times a piece.
Yes, there did seem to be a few too many watchmen...
I guess there were refugees from surrounding villages joining them, that was sort of shown on the episode and was there in the books to an extent iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2014, 04:06:10 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2014, 09:49:41 AM
Yes, there did seem to be a few too many watchmen...
I guess there were refugees from surrounding villages joining them, that was sort of shown on the episode and was there in the books to an extent iirc.

Nope, they were all Crows.  In editing they should have just cut the line about there only being 20 down below.  Or written it to be something like "there are too few to defend".   As it was there were more Crows than the less than 100 they were supposed to have defending.  But the battle scenes were well done and enjoyable to watch.  I give the episode an A.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2014, 04:35:53 PM
It was pretty well done, I am just impatient to see [spoiler]Tywin get patricided[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 04:44:32 PM
They shouldn't have edited out Ygritte touching Jon's face.  Changed the tone of the scene from tenderness to bitterness IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on June 09, 2014, 04:52:32 PM
What Series and episode are you guy on ?

As I've only just started and Series 1, episodes 7-8 are arriving tomorrow.  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 04:54:21 PM
The series is Game of Thrones.  :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on June 09, 2014, 04:57:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 04:54:21 PM
The series is Game of Thrones.  :contract:

We don't tend to use season in that context.  :bowler:

But thanks anyway Grumbler.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2014, 04:57:57 PM
iirc We are coming to the end of the fourth season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: mongers on June 09, 2014, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 09, 2014, 04:57:57 PM
iirc We are coming to the end of the fourth season.

:cheers:

So I've a way to go catching up.   :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2014, 05:32:46 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 09, 2014, 04:35:53 PM
It was pretty well done, I am just impatient to see [spoiler]Tywin get patricided[/spoiler]
Yeah, i was expecting that this episode.  The biggie moments are saved for the ninth episode, by and large. 

i agree with those who note that the show kinda fucked up the number of Crows present.  A lot of the people resisting the attack on the fort were not in black cloaks, though, so I'm not sure what they were supposed to be.  Servants, maybe?

The battle was good, but a lot of the sword fighting was still awkward to watch.  And Snow getting his face smashed into the anvil and then getting up with all of his teeth seemed a bit much.  Still, i won't complain - they were trying to make it exciting, and succeeded, so nits are just nits.

I liked the way they handled the battle in the tunnel.  Actually showing that fight would have put too much strain on the actors interfacing with a CGI giant, and this way worked perfectly.

[spoiler]I had hoped that Stannis would arrive at the end of this episode.  That would have been the perfect 'wow' moment for the ninth episode.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2014, 05:58:39 PM
For all the fighting, to me, the best moments of the episode were when Aemon talked to Sam in the library.  Peter Vaughan had his acting tour de force right there, as far as I am concerned. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 06:08:42 PM
I would definitely hit Gilly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 09, 2014, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2014, 05:32:46 PM
And Snow getting his face smashed into the anvil and then getting up with all of his teeth seemed a bit much.

That was funny, yeah.

[spoiler]And IIRC Stannis isn't due to arrive until Jon is trying to kill Mance, so presumably next episode, unless they push the entire thing to next season.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 09, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 09, 2014, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 09, 2014, 05:32:46 PM
And Snow getting his face smashed into the anvil and then getting up with all of his teeth seemed a bit much.

That was funny, yeah.

[spoiler]And IIRC Stannis isn't due to arrive until Jon is trying to kill Mance, so presumably next episode, unless they push the entire thing to next season.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]The whole timeline of Jon going to see Mance has changed, so its hard to say how close they will stay regarding Stannis.  It would have been boss to have ended the episode with Stannis's charge, though. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 09, 2014, 09:08:12 PM
Where was Master Aemon during the battle?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 09, 2014, 09:09:14 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 09, 2014, 09:08:12 PM
Where was Master Aemon during the battle?
probably taking a nap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 09, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
I dunno, he's blind, not deaf, so might have trouble sleeping with all that racket.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2014, 09:41:05 PM
combatjack
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 09, 2014, 09:44:39 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 09, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
I dunno, he's blind, not deaf, so might have trouble sleeping with all that racket.
hes also a 100. Although I guess he could be having an epic duel with a coat rack
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 10, 2014, 04:19:28 AM
My memory of the latter books is totally borked. I couldn't remember Jon going north to kill Mance at all but checking up he did do that.

Quote from: crazy canuck on June 09, 2014, 04:06:10 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2014, 09:49:41 AM
Yes, there did seem to be a few too many watchmen...
I guess there were refugees from surrounding villages joining them, that was sort of shown on the episode and was there in the books to an extent iirc.

Nope, they were all Crows.  In editing they should have just cut the line about there only being 20 down below.  Or written it to be something like "there are too few to defend".   As it was there were more Crows than the less than 100 they were supposed to have defending.  But the battle scenes were well done and enjoyable to watch.  I give the episode an A.
The villagers would have been wearing Watch armour and using Watch weapons.
It is the only way to make the amount of people there make sense :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2014, 04:40:51 AM
One of my  big conspiracy theories is that Mance = Rhaegar. So I'll be looking out for any changes D&D make in the interaction between Mance and Jon.

Already he's leaving the sword behind. Thats a big departure already.


And [spoiler]Stannis won't show up until next season. Simply on the grounds that Dalla and Val haven't been cast.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 10, 2014, 04:43:02 AM
Eh, why would Mance be Rhaegar Targaryen? That doesn't fit with anything we know about Mance or Rhaegar...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2014, 04:55:06 AM
Rhaegar and Mance share the following attributes[spoiler]

Same age, same height, same body size, same interest in music, same interest in prophecy, same skill apparently unique skill set, same favourite colours and most people think they are dead. The main difference is hair color and eye color.

I am going to propose a narrative of how I think history unfolded showing how certain events in the book contribute to foreshadowing the obstacles to the R=M hypothesis, how these events tie together otherwise unrelated events in the books and how this weaves a considerable number of loose threads together to form a coherent whole.

The assumptions you need to make to have this narrative work are

1) That there is a prophecy which is know to the initiated.
2) That kinds of events can happen again.

Ok, the narrative is as follows.

Young Rhaegar, bookish and nerdy, reads up on his prophecy and finds something important. Personally I think this prophecy also explains Aerys' madness since it is quite possible that both were working to fulfil it at the time, leading (unwittingly) to Roberts Rebellion. Once he reads the prophecy he has a profound change of lifestyle, he decides to learn how to fight.

In apparent fulfilment of the prophecy he marries Elia of Dorne. Which would be the first marriage of a Targaryen in the line of succession to a non-Targaryen since Dorne was brought into the kingdom and before that since Aegon's Conquest. I think he did this in pursuit of the prophecy. He then corresponds with Maester Aemon at the wall thinking his son by Elia is the PWP. I think Aemon corrected his mis-understanding of the prophecy with books from his library.

Later at the tourney at Harrenhall Rhaegar fights with an unprecented ferocity and skill to become champion letting him bestow the title of queen of love and beauty on Lyanna, not his wife. Earlier in the tourney the Knight of the Laughing tree bests a few minor nobles and Rhaegars squire promises to uncover the secret identity. I think the squire uncovers the identity, tells Rhaegar who then realizes what the prophecies really mean. He then determines to win the tourney and woo Lyanna. Lyannas symbol of the blue flower which appears in the house of the undying where it breaks the wall is probably related to the prophecy.

Not being able to plausibly break the engagement Lyanna already had with Robert he kidnaps her. Meanwhile the mad king, in trying to fulfil his end of the prophecy seeks to revive dragons, by, if necessary burning all of kings landing with dragon eggs hoping to find a blood of the dragon in fleabottom or something. At this point Roberts Rebellion breaks out. This is a minor inconvenience for Rhaegar who is away at the Tower of Joy trying to fulfil a prophecy with Lyanna. This is why Aerys bungles the war and hires and fires Hands.

With Lyanna pregnant and the prophecy apparently being fulfilled, Rhaegar returns. He then departs to lead the army against the nuisance Robert telling Jamie that everything will be different, since now there is no need to burn the city to fulfil the prophecy. He leaves Jamie as hostage to Tywins loyalty, leave his 3 best white cloak friends at the TOJ with the PWP, takes the other 3 white cloaks to the Ruby ford where he is beaten by Robert.

Tyrion fights in a battle at almost the same location where he is knocked out, left for dead and still alive. I think the same thing happened to Rhaegar. Covered in mud his armour, now without the rubies left him looking like any other dead body. Only he was without his heraldry. The Hound allegedly floated down the river after his death where he was saved at the silent isle. I think this happened to Rhaegar too. He was badly injured and by the time he recovered he entered a new world with Robert on the throne, his family dead, Lyanna dead and apparently no hope of him fulfilling he prophecy. He then goes into hiding at the wall where his uncle aemon helps him hide his identity to keep him safe from Robert's wrath along with Jeor Mormont and Qorin Half Hand (and possibly others).

At this point he has a new, fake name, is hiding his identity behind a disguise, potentially a faceless man style diguise he might have learned about from his booklearning. He might also have travelled to Essos after leaving the Nights Watch. He then goes to fulfil the rest of the prophecy, or at least the bits he can contribute to the prophecy. Failing to find the horn of joramund (which sam finds at the fist of the first men), he tries to save the wildlings from the coming catastrophy by getting them across the wall. He does this because he fails to contact Mormont before the great ranging is destroyed at the fist. He then lets Jon keep his sword and protect his half brother possibly as a test of the prophecy.

An interesting consequence of this is that the assassination attempt on Bran may have been prophecy related. Brans paralyzation may be in the prophecies and given the importance of understanding prophecy burning the library might not just have been a diversion, it might have been an attempt to burn books with information on the prophecy, making the person who hired the assassin possibly an agent of the others or the evil god opposing Ryhllor.

Mance's trip to Winterfell during Roberts visit may have have many many more reasons. Including a visit to Lyannas Tomb which would have been unsealed for Roberts visit and a look at Jon Snow to confirm he was Lyannas son (by looking at his face) to reassure him that the prophecy was valid, possibly after hearing from Ben-Jen Stark that Jon looked like Lyanna.

Jon says in AFFC Ch.5 "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own". Knowing what we know about R+L=J this suddenly becomes relevant. Also, Mance takes on the name Able, an anagram of Bale, who famously stole the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and returned her with a son. Which, is amazing relevat if Jon is Lyannas son by Rhaegar and Rhaegar is Mance.

This all assumes that Rhaegar survived the battle like Tyrion, survived the river like The Hound,could change his appearance as Jaqen H'Gar and could have his death faked like Mance Rayder. That Martin's comment on how Rhaegar was cremated is misleading.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2014, 06:09:40 AM
:nerd: :nerd: :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 10, 2014, 06:12:37 AM
You guys take this way too seriously. I just watch it for the tits. Which this season has been somewhat lacking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2014, 06:30:43 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2014, 06:09:40 AM
:nerd: :nerd: :nerd:

Blame Zanza, he asked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 10, 2014, 06:38:08 AM
I see nothing wrong with your speculation, Viking.  I'd just hope it isn't true.  The books have too many fake deaths as it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 10, 2014, 06:43:38 AM
http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_4_gains_three_new_actresses-2013-09

Actually they did cast [spoiler]Val[/spoiler] and [spoiler]Dalla[/spoiler]. But, for next season, so no [spoiler]Stannis in teh snow[/spoiler] for this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 10, 2014, 06:46:37 AM
Yeah, I think they just did an entire episode at the wall, with an epic battle and closure to an emotionally critical story line. We won't see anything at the Wall in Ep10, I suspect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 10, 2014, 07:42:28 AM
Yeah I guess it makes more sense to end the northern story line for this season with[spoiler]OMG TEH WILDLINGS ARE BREAKERING THROUGH instead of OH RIGHT WESTEROS IS SAVED[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 10, 2014, 08:49:15 AM
Like I said, I would have ended this ep with [spoiler]Stannis's charge.[/spoiler]  No new actors needed.

Agree that the last ep probably won't show the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 10, 2014, 09:10:08 AM
They are definitely going to show the conclusion of the Wall stuff in the next episode--it's in the preview.  [spoiler]Including fleeting images of a certain charge, it looks like...  :yeah:[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 10, 2014, 10:22:28 AM
hmm, that Rhaegar as Mance idea makes more sense than the basic comparisons I've read before but still....Mance is too minor and it is too late in the day for such a sudden change. It wouldn't be quite as bad as Aegon turning out to be real but it would be comparable.  Having such a big twist involving background characters....hmm...

But still....how Mance managed to become king of the wildlings is a story that needs expanding upon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Of course Aegon is real.  The great Jon Connington shall triumph and Tyr shall weap and rend his clothes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 10, 2014, 10:34:29 AM
That must've been from around the time I stopped caring in book 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2014, 10:39:17 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 10, 2014, 10:34:29 AM
That must've been from around the time I stopped caring in book 5.

Congrats on your award:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbendigofitness.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Ftoo-cool-for-school-rebelbadges.co_.uk_.jpg&hash=aa91ff27770c76c61d77cf915317d502bf72a87c)

Wear it with pride my friend!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 10, 2014, 10:40:51 AM
Actually, perhaps I needed more schooling, as the lack of caring was because of the introduction of too many new characters for me to be invested in any of them. Or to figure out who was who.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2014, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 10, 2014, 10:40:51 AM
Actually, perhaps I needed more schooling, as the lack of caring was because of the introduction of too many new characters for me to be invested in any of them. Or to figure out who was who.

I perfectly understand why somebody would lose interest in the series I was just kidding around.

Too Cool for School is an expression that you are too awesome to be involved in something, not just school.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 10, 2014, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 10, 2014, 10:22:28 AM
hmm, that Rhaegar as Mance idea makes more sense than the basic comparisons I've read before but still....Mance is too minor and it is too late in the day for such a sudden change.

[spoiler]It wouldnt be the first time things have changed so that someone who the reader thought was dead is actually alive and is actually some otherwise minor character who is about to take the stage[/spoiler]

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 10, 2014, 11:31:05 AM
[spoiler]The likelihood of Aegon being the real thing and Mance being Rhaegar are about the same--not very.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 10, 2014, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 10, 2014, 11:31:05 AM
[spoiler]The likelihood of Aegon being the real thing and Mance being Rhaegar are about the same--not very.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Varys was a mummer and Aegon is his dragon.  In any case let me have my fun.  I am well aware I am supposed to be rooting for Daenerys.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 11, 2014, 12:46:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2014, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 10, 2014, 11:31:05 AM
[spoiler]The likelihood of Aegon being the real thing and Mance being Rhaegar are about the same--not very.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Varys was a mummer and Aegon is his dragon.  In any case let me have my fun.  I am well aware I am supposed to be rooting for Daenerys.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I am definitely not rooting for Dany overly-much.  She has a good sense of morality, in general, but leaves something to be desired in a ruler.  I am a Stannis man.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 11, 2014, 12:47:22 AM
 :yucky:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 11, 2014, 02:37:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 10, 2014, 10:22:28 AM
hmm, that Rhaegar as Mance idea makes more sense than the basic comparisons I've read before but still....Mance is too minor and it is too late in the day for such a sudden change. It wouldn't be quite as bad as Aegon turning out to be real but it would be comparable.  Having such a big twist involving background characters....hmm...

But still....how Mance managed to become king of the wildlings is a story that needs expanding upon.

Aegon is real. What matters if a Dragon is black or red? It is still a Dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 11, 2014, 06:25:50 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 11, 2014, 12:46:25 AM
I am definitely not rooting for Dany overly-much.  She has a good sense of morality, in general, but leaves something to be desired in a ruler.  I am a Stannis man.

Why spoilered?  :lol:

When Dany marries Jon Snow, then you will have the ruler you want, plus the moral backbone you want.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 11, 2014, 07:42:43 AM
Wouldn't that lead to an ending that's far to happy for Martin?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 11, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2014, 07:42:43 AM
Wouldn't that lead to an ending that's far to happy for Martin?
Oh, they won't be alive at the end!  In fact, one or both won't be alive when they marry - white walker zombie marriage, anyone?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2014, 08:00:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 11, 2014, 02:37:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 10, 2014, 10:22:28 AM
hmm, that Rhaegar as Mance idea makes more sense than the basic comparisons I've read before but still....Mance is too minor and it is too late in the day for such a sudden change. It wouldn't be quite as bad as Aegon turning out to be real but it would be comparable.  Having such a big twist involving background characters....hmm...

But still....how Mance managed to become king of the wildlings is a story that needs expanding upon.

Aegon is real. What matters if a Dragon is black or red? It is still a Dragon.

The dragon's color scheme matters because every other color scheme in the book matters. That Drogon is Black and Red is not a coincidence. That is the largest dragon and those are Targaryen colours. I don't think it is co-incidental that Dany's two old knights arms share a colour scheme with her two remaining dragons. Mormont's Black and Green and Selmy's White and White, matching the other two dragons Rhaegal and Vysarion. Furthermore I don't think that Tyrion's Black and Green eyes are a coincidence or that [spoiler]Ghost is [/spoiler]white by accident. Just imagine when [spoiler]Jon Snow is legitimized as a Stark, can his arms be anything other than a White Wolf on a white field, a variant of the stark Grey Wolf on a White Field[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 11, 2014, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 11, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2014, 07:42:43 AM
Wouldn't that lead to an ending that's far to happy for Martin?
Oh, they won't be alive at the end!  In fact, one or both won't be alive when they marry - white walker zombie marriage, anyone?

If it's good enough for Nights King then it's good enough for Zombie Ygritt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 11, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 11, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2014, 07:42:43 AM
Wouldn't that lead to an ending that's far to happy for Martin?
Oh, they won't be alive at the end!  In fact, one or both won't be alive when they marry - white walker zombie marriage, anyone?

But then after they marry it will turn out neither was actually dead so they can produce an heir but then they will both die in a horribly predictably way along with their child after many chapters are written about them.  Then their child will be found alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 11, 2014, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 11, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 11, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 11, 2014, 07:42:43 AM
Wouldn't that lead to an ending that's far to happy for Martin?
Oh, they won't be alive at the end!  In fact, one or both won't be alive when they marry - white walker zombie marriage, anyone?

But then after they marry it will turn out neither was actually dead so they can produce an heir but then they will both die in a horribly predictably way along with their child after many chapters are written about them.  Then their child will be found alive.
That';s why Martin is doing an eighth book, I take it...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 13, 2014, 01:35:23 AM
What Game of Thrones Would Sound Like If It Were Set in New Orleans  :lol:


http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-dixieland-cover?mbid=social_fbshare
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 13, 2014, 01:41:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvt5q6bt1s
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 15, 2014, 10:11:32 PM
Enjoyed the finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 15, 2014, 11:38:58 PM
A lot more deviation.  I like the changes though.  I'm definitely looking forward to next season the way things are developing.  I've got some faith that the writers will be able to transform the storylines stuck in neutral and stalling out into compelling television.  I do hope we haven't seen the last of "Don't fucking call me ser" Clegane. :weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2014, 01:02:49 AM
I suppose nothing lost by writing out the moose knight.

i really wish Arya could have shown some recognition of Clegane's basic goodness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 16, 2014, 01:56:26 AM
:weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 16, 2014, 02:00:45 AM
Okay I was going to wait til tomorrow but these deviations are some BULLSHIT. Not because I object to deviations but because they are in some cases gut wrenching.

[spoiler]Let's see if I do this right...
1. Tyrion parted with Jaime on pretty good terms. It was much different in the book. It was something Tyrion somewhat brooded on in DwD. They could introduce a similar plot device later, I'm sure.... but it was very surprising to see that.

2. WHY JOJEN? Okay I guess he is somewhat doomed in the book too, but I wasn't expecting him to go out like that.
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 16, 2014, 05:19:27 AM
First scene where Podric and Brienne are in iceland rather than northern ireland. Horses are lost. Why? Its not in the books?

Well, Icelandic horses are basically hairy ponies and proper kniggotly horses are big monsters. Iceland has a import ban on livestock for veterinary reasons. So, as soon as filming shifts to iceland they can't use horses, unless they want hairy ponies.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Legbiter on June 16, 2014, 05:52:52 AM
Quote from: katmai on June 15, 2014, 10:11:32 PM
Enjoyed the finale.

Happy Father's Day from House Lannister?  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 16, 2014, 07:51:22 AM
Other Observations.

Mance did not kneel to Stannis, nor did he call him king.
Nothing in the Jon Snow, Mance conversation suggested or conflicted with Mance-Rhaegar.

As for hte icelandic horses, arya is riding one to salt pans, you can see they are small and hairy. They are considered especially sure footed in difficult terrain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
Mance as Rhaegar...looking at the book there could be something to the theory.
But seeing the TV series Mance.....no. I've stopped considering that one.
He's just too thoroughly un-Targaryan. Very common.


Very fitting fathers day episode :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 16, 2014, 11:04:46 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 16, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
Mance as Rhaegar...looking at the book there could be something to the theory.
But seeing the TV series Mance.....no. I've stopped considering that one.
He's just too thoroughly un-Targaryan. Very common.

What do you think of the Targaryanness of the Crows Maester?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 16, 2014, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 16, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
Mance as Rhaegar...looking at the book there could be something to the theory.
But seeing the TV series Mance.....no. I've stopped considering that one.
He's just too thoroughly un-Targaryan. Very common.


Very fitting fathers day episode :lol:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchou-seh-fu.com%2FmattersOfTheDay%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FjuliusCaesar-CiaranHinds.jpg&hash=0480b8d13613639febf3d6cae7e4865fe65b1fcc)

Yes, nothing regal about him at all.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-3fwABuZ3y-U%2FUC6Lc2G4CbI%2FAAAAAAAADPo%2FVXk--akwNwc%2Fs1600%2FCiaranHindsJohnCarter1.jpg&hash=d8858e54bb030fe07597de9b9d46070b8b56c012)

nothing remotely targaryen looking about him here is there?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 16, 2014, 01:01:20 PM
Man it looks like Robert did as good a job killing of all the Targaryans as the Bolsheviks did killing off all the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2014, 02:47:23 PM
That was disappointing.

But from here on in the writing in the show cant be any worse than book 5 so the general level of disappointment should be less.  And btw I was right.  They completely messed up the backstory for why the Imp did what he did.  Dumbing down FTL
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 16, 2014, 03:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2014, 01:01:20 PM
Man it looks like Robert did as good a job killing of all the Targaryans as the Bolsheviks did killing off all the Romanovs.

Was Robert like Swiss cheese?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 16, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2014, 02:47:23 PM
That was disappointing.

But from here on in the writing in the show cant be any worse than book 5 so the general level of disappointment should be less.  And btw I was right.  They completely messed up the backstory for why the Imp did what he did.  Dumbing down FTL

You and QueenG should form a club.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 16, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2014, 02:47:23 PM
That was disappointing.

But from here on in the writing in the show cant be any worse than book 5 so the general level of disappointment should be less.  And btw I was right.  They completely messed up the backstory for why the Imp did what he did.  Dumbing down FTL

You and QueenG should form a club.
It's called the Broken Record Club.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 16, 2014, 02:00:45 AM
[spoiler]Let's see if I do this right...
1. Tyrion parted with Jaime on pretty good terms. It was much different in the book. It was something Tyrion somewhat brooded on in DwD. They could introduce a similar plot device later, I'm sure.... but it was very surprising to see that.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I thinik that they are skipping that whole element of the story in the book.  It never made any sense for Tyrion to claim to have killed Joffrey anyway.[/spoiler]


Quote[spoiler] 2. WHY JOJEN? Okay I guess he is somewhat doomed in the book too, but I wasn't expecting him to go out like that. [/spoiler]
[spoiler]That one took me by surprise as well.  I wonder if the books' depiction of his death would have just been too complex a story for TV.  Clearly, he couldn't have had a vital role in the future books, if the show was wiling to kill him off at this point.  Again, TV needs visual drama more than the books, so perhaps this was simply the more visually dramatic way to off him.  That's all guesswork, though.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 16, 2014, 07:48:47 PM
 no coldhands on the tv show. Guess he doesn't turn out to be anyone important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on June 16, 2014, 08:25:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2014, 01:01:20 PM
Man it looks like Robert did as good a job killing of all the Targaryans as the Bolsheviks did killing off all the Romanovs.
Pretty fucking poorly, aye.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Scipio on June 16, 2014, 08:25:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2014, 01:01:20 PM
Man it looks like Robert did as good a job killing of all the Targaryans as the Bolsheviks did killing off all the Romanovs.
Pretty fucking poorly, aye.
Robert's abilities to kill Targaryans versus Varys's ability to protect them?  Give me a break.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2014, 08:43:06 PM
Ive seen a few posts on  the internet speaking highly of jojen. Maybe the actor has been offered a bigger role in something else and they figure they might as well kill him?

The children are disappointing. Way too 80s fantasy - was that magic or grenades?
Their home too looks a bit too nice and conventional fantasyish. Even the bones on the floor were rather meh. It was supposed to be rather unsettling and questionable about whether it was good or not- dark and deep and with the tree man being an abomination with the tree growing through him.
This too could be another reason to kill jojen- maybe in the books something is due to happen to him in the dodgy children's under dark? (Did it already? Why can't I remember the last book.... I just remember him being ill)


Shame there was no cold hands. Even if he wasn't the stark uncle he still seemed fairly important in being a "good other".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
While we are on curiously skipped scenes,
[spoiler]I wonder why it isn't shown in the episode that varys is the one who sends Tyrion off to kill Tywin?  That seems a pretty major plot point.  maybe it will be reconstructed in retrospect, but they were already paying Conleth Hill to appear in the episode, and they could have easily have found time in the episode to show it, like by making the silly sword fight between Brienne and Sandor Clegane into something that looked like like a real fight would look.[/spoiler]

And I will moan once again about the swordplay.  Seriously. If any fighter in the show had simply used a thrust, all of this windmill-swinging and clashing of swords would have been eliminated.  Swords have points, people!  Using them like wood-chopping axes isn't smart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:51:34 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 16, 2014, 08:43:06 PM
Ive seen a few posts in the internet speaking highly of jojen. Maybe the actor has been offered a bigger role in something else and they figure they mouth as well kill him?

That's actually one of the better explanations I have heard.  I don't necessarily buy it, but it explains things well.

QuoteThe children are disappointing. Way too 80s fantasy - was that magic or grenades?
Their home too looks a bit too nice and conventional fantasyish. Even the bones on the floor were rather meh. It was supposed to be rather unsettling and questionable about whether it was good or not- dark and deep and with the tree man being an abomination with the tree growing through him.
This too could be another reason to kill jojen- maybe in the books something is due to happen to him in the dodgy children's under dark? (Did it already? Why can't I remember the last book.... I just remember him being ill)

Agreed.  In the books, it stil isn't clear that what is luring Bran north is "good' in any sense.

QuoteShame there was no cold hands. Even if he wasn't the stark uncle he still seemed fairly important in being a "good other".

I am quite satisfied with their leaving him out.  It isn't at all clear, as i mentioned, that "good' will come of Bran's quest.  [spoiler]I personally believe that we will find that Bran is the victim of his own desire to walk/fly/warg, and will end up serving the bad guys.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 16, 2014, 09:26:30 PM
Can't remember how [spoiler]Sandor dies in the books[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
Half way through book five, I haven't read a confirmed kill yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2014, 11:02:51 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 16, 2014, 09:26:30 PM
Can't remember how [spoiler]Sandor dies in the books[/spoiler]
It's believed he doesn't. He falls into a river and was possibly washed up at a monastery. Nothing confirmed.


The changes to arya and Brienne are interesting.
I guessed the tv show makers loved the hound too much and wanted to make maximum use of him. Whilst in the books briennes quest in the crown lands wasn't particularly interesting and was just a bit of filling in the blanks on the map storytelling.
She is closing in on Sansa though....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 16, 2014, 11:11:01 PM
They didn't even give Arya her direwolf cookie or w/e that thing is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Scipio on June 16, 2014, 11:11:49 PM
Sandor forever!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 17, 2014, 02:16:44 AM
I was hoping for a "Lancel and Osmud Kettleblack and Moonboy too" from Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
And I will moan once again about the swordplay.  Seriously. If any fighter in the show had simply used a thrust, all of this windmill-swinging and clashing of swords would have been eliminated.  Swords have points, people!  Using them like wood-chopping axes isn't smart.

There's a difference between realistic fighting and fighting that looks good on screen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 17, 2014, 02:16:44 AM
I was hoping for a "Lancel and Osmud Kettleblack and Moonboy too" from Tyrion.

None of those actually exist in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 17, 2014, 09:04:18 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
And I will moan once again about the swordplay.  Seriously. If any fighter in the show had simply used a thrust, all of this windmill-swinging and clashing of swords would have been eliminated.  Swords have points, people!  Using them like wood-chopping axes isn't smart.

There's a difference between realistic fighting and fighting that looks good on screen.

I think GoT has got a pretty decent medium really. There are some wide slashes and spinning and other hollywood stuff but at least there is a genuine impression of the weight of the swords and armour going on. Using swords more like blunt instruments is fairly realistic for knights fighting in a high medieval setting, though the armour generally looks a bit lighter than full tournament stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2014, 09:11:26 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 17, 2014, 02:16:44 AM
I was hoping for a "Lancel and Osmud Kettleblack and Moonboy too" from Tyrion.

None of those actually exist in the show.
Lancel exists.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 09:32:00 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2014, 09:11:26 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 17, 2014, 02:16:44 AM
I was hoping for a "Lancel and Osmud Kettleblack and Moonboy too" from Tyrion.

None of those actually exist in the show.
Lancel exists.

Not since season 2 he doesn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 10:55:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
And I will moan once again about the swordplay.  Seriously. If any fighter in the show had simply used a thrust, all of this windmill-swinging and clashing of swords would have been eliminated.  Swords have points, people!  Using them like wood-chopping axes isn't smart.

Take it up with Errol Flynn et al. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 17, 2014, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 17, 2014, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 17, 2014, 02:16:44 AM
I was hoping for a "Lancel and Osmud Kettleblack and Moonboy too" from Tyrion.

None of those actually exist in the show.

Well jamie needed somethign to mutter to himself every time cersei gets more and more psycho
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 17, 2014, 11:29:34 AM
Meh, I would have preferred it if Tyrion had killed Shae in cold blood instead of sobbing about it when killing her self-defense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 17, 2014, 11:30:30 AM
I saw an article once that pointed out that most depictions of sword fighting with actual swords really mess up the fact that you cannot cut meat (including a human) by simply hitting it with a sharp object.

Imagine you are trying to cut a steak with a really, really sharp knife. Will your knife cut throught the steak if you simply swing it at the steak and hit it with the sharp edge? Not really - you have to CUT the steak, running that sharp edge back and forth across the meat, and then it will in fact cut very nicely.

So "hitting" someone with the cutting edge of a sword might be very damaging from a weight/mass standpoint, but you aren't going to slice through someone really in that fashion, you really have to hit them, then draw your weapon across them applying pressure to "cut".

Which is why armor works so well, since it means you cannot "cut".

Part of the problem is that modern humans simply don't really understand actual martial swordfighting, since we don't do it at all anymore. Even live steel fighting is not designed to actually cut people, quite the opposite in fact. The article I read (this was a while back) was trying to make the point that in actual reality, we don't really know HOW people with longswords and such actually fought from a mechanical standpoint, since nobody has done so in earnest for a ridiculously long time.

Most of our "fake" fighting emphasize simply making contact with sweeping hacks, but in reality, that would likely be an incredibly ineffective way to actually seriously injure someone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 17, 2014, 11:38:43 AM
While I guess you are right, Berkut, you can certainly cut meat with a sharp enough knife by just hitting it. You can even cut your skin with paper after all. The problem with knifes sharp enough to cut on contact is that they get dull very fast when hitting something hard like armor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 17, 2014, 11:30:30 AM
So "hitting" someone with the cutting edge of a sword might be very damaging from a weight/mass standpoint, but you aren't going to slice through someone really in that fashion, you really have to hit them, then draw your weapon across them applying pressure to "cut".

I have been hit buy a sharp object (although not a sword) and it sliced into me pretty easily.  Back in the day one of the jobs I had was in restoration.  My job was the initial salvage/clean up crew after a house suffered a flood or fire.  On one of those jobs I was taking a window out of its frame.  I thought it was undamaged but it had a crack along the top so that when I pulled the window out the top part of the window came straight down on my wrist.  It was only a drop of a couple of feet and the window was not very heavy.  There was no drawing of the sharp edge across my wrist.  It just came straight down on me and gave me a gash about 3 inches wide.  I have a really cool scar.

I have to think that if that had been someone swinging at me with a heavier sword with their full force they would easily take my hand off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 17, 2014, 12:05:54 PM
I don't think that's right, otherwise an axe would not function.  When I hit a tree with an axe, it cuts into it.  There's not a lot of sawing motion going on.  I can't imagine an axe on a person would function differently.  After all people are were executed with axes and swords strikes for ages.

Here's some idiots cutting up things with a sword.  The last thing they cut is a pig carcass.  It looks like they cut through it with slashs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHjEK3Fc78 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHjEK3Fc78)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 12:06:31 PM
A quick google search found another video of a sword easily slicing through the flesh of an animal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v4j3mvrDyQ
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:12:51 PM
You should always wear your armour, CC.  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:12:51 PM
You should always wear your armour, CC.  :hug:

No kidding.  At least that incident got me out of that godforsaken job. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 17, 2014, 12:17:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 17, 2014, 12:05:54 PM
I don't think that's right, otherwise an axe would not function.  When I hit a tree with an axe, it cuts into it.  There's not a lot of sawing motion going on.  I can't imagine an axe on a person would function differently.  After all people are were executed with axes and swords strikes for ages.

Here's some idiots cutting up things with a sword.  The last thing they cut is a pig carcass.  It looks like they cut through it with slashs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHjEK3Fc78 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHjEK3Fc78)

Agreed. 


I dont know what the hell Berkut is talking about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 12:20:28 PM
Surely there was a need for the warsaw or it wouldn't have been invented?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:21:06 PM
One of the reasons the Norse were fond of axes was that it was a weapon of dual functionality. They could hack and slash, and throw it. The impact of a thrown axe, even the smaller ones, is quite impressive.

I don't know much about swords, but them being pointy would suggest you stab with them rather than cut.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 17, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:21:06 PM
I don't know much about swords, but them being pointy would suggest you stab with them rather than cut.

But you also have sharp edges so couldn't you both thrust and cut?

Besides, many knives used in the home have pointy ends though the primary use is for cutting not thrusting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 17, 2014, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:21:06 PM
I don't know much about swords, but them being pointy would suggest you stab with them rather than cut.

But you also have sharp edges so couldn't you both thrust and cut?

Besides, many knives used in the home have pointy ends though the primary use is for cutting not thrusting.

There is a reason why a Katanna, saber, scimitar and the like have curved blades. But according to berkut they dont cut.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
I gladly accept that this is stuff that I know little about.
But I am an expert at cutting myself when preparing food.  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 12:28:42 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Fwoundedman_zps7233d733.jpg&hash=88859803dac71198fd3dd45ed5c0736a4d9568b1)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 17, 2014, 12:30:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 17, 2014, 11:30:30 AM


Imagine you are trying to cut a steak with a really, really sharp knife. Will your knife cut throught the steak if you simply swing it at the steak and hit it with the sharp edge? Not really - you have to CUT the steak, running that sharp edge back and forth across the meat, and then it will in fact cut very nicely.


Horseshit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 17, 2014, 12:31:05 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 12:28:42 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Fwoundedman_zps7233d733.jpg&hash=88859803dac71198fd3dd45ed5c0736a4d9568b1)

Drawing from your most recent party?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 12:32:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2014, 12:31:05 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 12:28:42 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Fwoundedman_zps7233d733.jpg&hash=88859803dac71198fd3dd45ed5c0736a4d9568b1)

Drawing from your most recent party?

No he's dressed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 12:33:28 PM
Not quite the average Swedish-made penis enlarger pump (and how they are my bag, baby).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 12:51:12 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 10:55:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 16, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
And I will moan once again about the swordplay.  Seriously. If any fighter in the show had simply used a thrust, all of this windmill-swinging and clashing of swords would have been eliminated.  Swords have points, people!  Using them like wood-chopping axes isn't smart.

Take it up with Errol Flynn et al. 

really/  You think Errol Flynn et al sucked at sword fighting in the movies, and that GoT is the one doing it right?  I utterly disagree.  I think the way Errol Flynn et al did it is the way it should be done.  That's what i would argue in response to the argument that doing the windmill thing is necessary to make sword fights exciting for TV as well.

Now, I don't expect fencing with broadswords, but I'd expect the use of points.

but, to each his own, I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 17, 2014, 12:55:25 PM
Grumbler remembers his training with Legio I Germanica
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 12:51:12 PM
really/  You think Errol Flynn et al sucked at sword fighting in the movies, and that GoT is the one doing it right? 

No of course not - they are all doing it wrong because the purpose is to show action and dramatic effect, not realistic technique whatever that is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 17, 2014, 12:55:25 PM
Grumbler remembers his training with Legio I Germanica
I do?  Thanks, grandpa!  :hug:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 17, 2014, 01:04:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 12:32:29 PM
No he's dressed.

:blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 12:51:12 PM
really/  You think Errol Flynn et al sucked at sword fighting in the movies, and that GoT is the one doing it right? 

No of course not - they are all doing it wrong because the purpose is to show action and dramatic effect, not realistic technique whatever that is.

Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone fought for dramatic effect.  Kit Harington and Rory McCann (and their stunt doubles), alas, seem to have been trained to fight for comic effect.

Not sure what "realistic technique" is, either, nor why you bring it up.

Not, btw, that my complaint is more than a nit.  Still, it wouldn't cost the show any more to have the actors and stunt doubles at least look like they know how to use a sword.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 12:51:12 PM
really/  You think Errol Flynn et al sucked at sword fighting in the movies, and that GoT is the one doing it right? 

No of course not - they are all doing it wrong because the purpose is to show action and dramatic effect, not realistic technique whatever that is.

Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone fought for dramatic effect.  Kit Harington and Rory McCann (and their stunt doubles), alas, seem to have been trained to fight for comic effect.

Not sure what "realistic technique" is, either, nor why you bring it up.

Not, btw, that my complaint is more than a nit.  Still, it wouldn't cost the show any more to have the actors and stunt doubles at least look like they know how to use a sword.

You are not sure what a realistic technique is but you are sure that these guys didnt use it.   :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:35:58 PM
Like anyone outside of fencing (the legal kind, not the car radio kind) knows how to fight with a sword these days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:35:58 PM
Like anyone outside of fencing (the legal kind, not the car radio kind) knows how to fight with a sword these days.

You mean rapiers dont you?

If we had sword fighting as an olympic sport then we might have a better idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:46:40 PM
I guess that's what they use in fencing, yes.

"Welcome to the broadsword tournament of the 2018 Olympics. Unfortunately the winner from last time can't join us, on account of being beheaded in the qualifiers"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:46:40 PM
I guess that's what they use in fencing, yes.

"Welcome to the broadsword tournament of the 2018 Olympics. Unfortunately the winner from last time can't join us, on account of being beheaded in the qualifiers"

:lol:

but think of the ratings
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 01:49:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:23:40 PM
You are not sure what a realistic technique is but you are sure that these guys didnt use it.   :hmm:

I am?  Wow.  I didn't know.  Thanks for telling me what I am sure of. 

Any other straw men you want to toss out there, while you are at it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 01:59:10 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:46:40 PM
I guess that's what they use in fencing, yes.

"Welcome to the broadsword tournament of the 2018 Olympics. Unfortunately the winner from last time can't join us, on account of being beheaded in the qualifiers"
Actually, there is a sport saber dueling sport, using a blade that both "cuts" and "pierces' (though dulled so that it hopefully does neither).  Folks using these would probably be the best modern people at fighting using weapons like those in GoT, though GoT's weapons are heavier.

It is apparently not uncommon to break bones in sport saber matches.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 17, 2014, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:35:58 PM
Like anyone outside of fencing (the legal kind, not the car radio kind) knows how to fight with a sword these days.

You mean rapiers dont you?

If we had sword fighting as an olympic sport then we might have a better idea.

What's this "we" shit? :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 02:08:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 01:59:10 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:46:40 PM
I guess that's what they use in fencing, yes.

"Welcome to the broadsword tournament of the 2018 Olympics. Unfortunately the winner from last time can't join us, on account of being beheaded in the qualifiers"
Actually, there is a sport saber dueling sport, using a blade that both "cuts" and "pierces' (though dulled so that it hopefully does neither).  Folks using these would probably be the best modern people at fighting using weapons like those in GoT, though GoT's weapons are heavier.

It is apparently not uncommon to break bones in sport saber matches.

I didn't know that. I thought there were electronic sensors and points awarded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 17, 2014, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 01:59:10 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 01:46:40 PM
I guess that's what they use in fencing, yes.

"Welcome to the broadsword tournament of the 2018 Olympics. Unfortunately the winner from last time can't join us, on account of being beheaded in the qualifiers"
Actually, there is a sport saber dueling sport, using a blade that both "cuts" and "pierces' (though dulled so that it hopefully does neither).  Folks using these would probably be the best modern people at fighting using weapons like those in GoT, though GoT's weapons are heavier.


Have you ever watched any matches?

Epic fail for hollywood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 02:46:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:23:40 PM
You are not sure what a realistic technique is but you are sure that these guys didnt use it.   :hmm:

I'm surely no expert but seems like a bad idea to turn your back to a sharp object, armor or no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 17, 2014, 03:03:34 PM
One thing I do find kind of odd about medieval sword fighting in movies (even most of GoT) is that they might as not be wearing any of that armor. They almost never actually use it, and fight are determined in most cases by factors having nothing to do with armor.

The one exception to this, which I liked very much, was when Mormont was fighting that blood rider, and took his shot on his armor and killed him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 03:05:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2014, 02:46:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2014, 01:23:40 PM
You are not sure what a realistic technique is but you are sure that these guys didnt use it.   :hmm:

I'm surely no expert but seems like a bad idea to turn your back to a sharp object, armor or no.

Yes, you are most likely correct.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 17, 2014, 03:25:02 PM
Armor never works in the movies cause you can't see the people in them.  A hero needs to be seen.  I don't know what a medieval battle would look like.  I've never seen one.  I imagine that it would like something like an enormous pushing match.  Thankfully artillery was invented to give some dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 17, 2014, 04:04:13 PM
Nice quote there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 05:00:29 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 17, 2014, 02:08:48 PM
I didn't know that. I thought there were electronic sensors and points awarded.
it is supposed to be about touches, just like foil fencing.  The heavier weapons, though, are apparently much harder to control and so accidents much more likely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 17, 2014, 04:04:13 PM
Nice quote there.
Actually, the quote is about cavalry:  "The general use of cavalry in modern warfare is to give tone to what would otherwise be a mere vulgar brawl!"  Punch, c. 1841
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 17, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 17, 2014, 11:30:30 AM
I saw an article once that pointed out that most depictions of sword fighting with actual swords really mess up the fact that you cannot cut meat (including a human) by simply hitting it with a sharp object.

Imagine you are trying to cut a steak with a really, really sharp knife. Will your knife cut throught the steak if you simply swing it at the steak and hit it with the sharp edge? Not really - you have to CUT the steak, running that sharp edge back and forth across the meat, and then it will in fact cut very nicely.

So "hitting" someone with the cutting edge of a sword might be very damaging from a weight/mass standpoint, but you aren't going to slice through someone really in that fashion, you really have to hit them, then draw your weapon across them applying pressure to "cut".

Which is why armor works so well, since it means you cannot "cut".

Part of the problem is that modern humans simply don't really understand actual martial swordfighting, since we don't do it at all anymore. Even live steel fighting is not designed to actually cut people, quite the opposite in fact. The article I read (this was a while back) was trying to make the point that in actual reality, we don't really know HOW people with longswords and such actually fought from a mechanical standpoint, since nobody has done so in earnest for a ridiculously long time.

Most of our "fake" fighting emphasize simply making contact with sweeping hacks, but in reality, that would likely be an incredibly ineffective way to actually seriously injure someone.

I'll second this, swords are not really weapons of war. In almost no cases (perhaps roman legions excepted) are swords the primary weapon of war. Even in the roman case the sword was more of a spear with no handle than what is traditionally considered a sword. Swords are something you have as well.

Sabres and Scimitars for cavalry, along with Katanas, were mostly useless against armoured opponents and only really useful to killing peasants and as a last resort. The status of swords probably stems from their usefulness as secondary weapons and their ability to be worn in most situations. Demonstrating both the ability to defend oneself and the willingness to kill.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 17, 2014, 05:15:59 PM
Two good channels about weapons and their use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6LcGEzUmdM


On kutting and another channel on weapons use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQwbf1_LP8w
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
http://tosh.cc.com/video-clips/527595/cold-steel-blade
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 17, 2014, 07:15:11 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 17, 2014, 05:09:17 PM


I'll second this, swords are not really weapons of war. In almost no cases (perhaps roman legions excepted) are swords the primary weapon of war. Even in the roman case the sword was more of a spear with no handle than what is traditionally considered a sword. Swords are something you have as well.

Sabres and Scimitars for cavalry, along with Katanas, were mostly useless against armoured opponents and only really useful to killing peasants and as a last resort. The status of swords probably stems from their usefulness as secondary weapons and their ability to be worn in most situations. Demonstrating both the ability to defend oneself and the willingness to kill.

I disagree.  Swords were very effective, because of their versatility.  You have more control then with an axe or spear and can chose between slashing and stabbing. In the late middle ages there are plenty of military manuals that discuss and fighting with swords and armor.  The manuals are often richly decorated and depict sword fights between armored men.  How they use the weapons is often unexpected though.  They fought dirty.

Here's an example (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6j51XW6.jpg&hash=e939007e5c8253d2d9b26de961ddfc9aa59f627f)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 18, 2014, 12:28:11 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 17, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 17, 2014, 04:04:13 PM
Nice quote there.
Actually, the quote is about cavalry:  "The general use of cavalry in modern warfare is to give tone to what would otherwise be a mere vulgar brawl!"  Punch, c. 1841
I always read it as being from Frederick the Great: Artillery adds dignity, to what would otherwise be an ugly brawl"
http://www.military-quotes.com/artillery%20quotes.htm
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 18, 2014, 12:41:55 AM
That silly knight is holding his sword backward!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 18, 2014, 12:50:04 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 18, 2014, 12:41:55 AM
That silly knight is holding his sword backward!

As Berkut said, swords weren't super sharp for the most part. Long swords often were used as levers and crow bars rather than cutting blades. There were also not primary weapons. They were last ditch back up weapons that people used when their lance or halberd or axe ceased to be helpful to continued survival.

The use of actual swords in actual war as primary weapons is pretty rare.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 18, 2014, 01:48:04 AM
Yep. The main use of swords in high medieval times tended to be as blunt weapons- which is always puzzling in RPGs with damage types and swords doing slashing damage against full plate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 05:21:58 AM
Could you guys please stop arguing about something none of you have any kind of practical experience in? Or move it to it's own thread. There is a limit to inane childish nerdery even here. Jeesh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 18, 2014, 05:41:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 05:21:58 AM
Could you guys please stop arguing about something none of you have any kind of practical experience in? Or move it to it's own thread. There is a limit to inane childish nerdery even here. Jeesh.

I thought this thread had taken geekery to a whole new level.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 18, 2014, 07:02:31 AM
Long sword +5 against Beets
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 07:15:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 05:21:58 AM
Could you guys please stop arguing about something none of you have any kind of practical experience in? Or move it to it's own thread. There is a limit to inane childish nerdery even here. Jeesh.

Somebody woke up on the rag this morning!  :lol:

Actually, we argue issues on which people don't have any personal experience all the time here, yourself included.  I think that your wits are simply addled by the thinness of the air on top of that high, high horse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 07:17:27 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 18, 2014, 12:28:11 AM
I always read it as being from Frederick the Great: Artillery adds dignity, to what would otherwise be an ugly brawl"
http://www.military-quotes.com/artillery%20quotes.htm

It's always unsourced as a Frederick the Great quote, though.  I edited a military maxims book, and tried to track down the "adds tone" quote in either version, and the furthest I could trace it was Punch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 07:15:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 05:21:58 AM
Could you guys please stop arguing about something none of you have any kind of practical experience in? Or move it to it's own thread. There is a limit to inane childish nerdery even here. Jeesh.

Somebody woke up on the rag this morning!  :lol:

Actually, we argue issues on which people don't have any personal experience all the time here, yourself included.  I think that your wits are simply addled by the thinness of the air on top of that high, high horse.

Pages upon pages about medieval sword fight? IN A THREAD OF A FANTASY TV SERIES?!! Please.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 18, 2014, 08:16:46 AM
Makes sense to me. :mellow:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:24:06 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 18, 2014, 08:16:46 AM
Makes sense to me. :mellow:

IDK. It reminded me of this bunch of guys at my previous job sitting not too far from me, in constant daily arguments over anything from flying a plane (which they had no idea about) through history (which they had even less idea about) to who knows what.

It just annoys me to off-topic the GOT thread with this asshatery  :blurgh: Open a new thread to see if Berkut or grumbler has a longer sword-dick, I do not care.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 18, 2014, 08:28:07 AM
Lighten up bro.  Hijacking threads is what we do.  We're a largely unmodded forum where people can say anything they want.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 18, 2014, 08:55:52 AM
You are missing the Forest, Yi.

This is a brilliant play by Tamas to derail the derailing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 18, 2014, 08:55:52 AM
You are missing the Forest, Yi.

This is a brilliant play by Tamas to derail the derailing.

Or, you are trying to derail the derailing by derailing my re-railing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 18, 2014, 09:04:13 AM
All this talk about rails....trains rule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 18, 2014, 09:10:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 18, 2014, 09:04:13 AM
All this talk about rails....trains rule.

They do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 09:10:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Pages upon pages about medieval sword fight? IN A THREAD OF A FANTASY TV SERIES?!! Please.

:huh:  Okay, change the number of posts per page to something like 50, and then you will have fewer pages.

I don't know what you are OTR about.  Discussions about medieval weapons in a fantasy show set in the equivalent of the historical medieval period sounds about right to me.  it is true that none of us have personal experience with medieval weapons, but then none of us have personal experience with kings, or magics, or Westeros, or pretty much anything else in the show.  It makes no sense to arbitrarily select weaponry as the one possible topic about the show on which personal experience is required to post.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 18, 2014, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 18, 2014, 08:55:52 AM
You are missing the Forest, Yi.

This is a brilliant play by Tamas to derail the derailing.

Or, you are trying to derail the derailing by derailing my re-railing.

So, Hammers & Maces > Swords, am I right?

Unless you have a Spren, than the form is irrevelent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 09:10:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Pages upon pages about medieval sword fight? IN A THREAD OF A FANTASY TV SERIES?!! Please.

:huh:  Okay, change the number of posts per page to something like 50, and then you will have fewer pages.

I don't know what you are OTR about.  Discussions about medieval weapons in a fantasy show set in the equivalent of the historical medieval period sounds about right to me.  it is true that none of us have personal experience with medieval weapons, but then none of us have personal experience with kings, or magics, or Westeros, or pretty much anything else in the show.  It makes no sense to arbitrarily select weaponry as the one possible topic about the show on which personal experience is required to post.

It bores me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 18, 2014, 09:59:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 18, 2014, 09:04:13 AM
All this talk about rails....trains rule.

If a train ran over someone it would certainly slice through them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 18, 2014, 10:04:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 18, 2014, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 18, 2014, 08:55:52 AM
You are missing the Forest, Yi.

This is a brilliant play by Tamas to derail the derailing.

Or, you are trying to derail the derailing by derailing my re-railing.

So, Hammers & Maces > Swords, am I right?

Unless you have a Spren, than the form is irrevelent.
swords still have the weight and moment to cause damage through armor, plus it was a pointy bit. Where axes and hammers have the edge (Pardon the pun) I imagine, is in the ability to pull down shields.   

See tamas, I can join in on the faux expert fun :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 10:05:10 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 18, 2014, 09:59:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 18, 2014, 09:04:13 AM
All this talk about rails....trains rule.

If a train ran over someone it would certainly slice through them.

IDK man. Trains are blunt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
It bores me.

What is not boring is the emo "I'm bored so stop posting" argument.  While, in truth, no one gives a shit about what bores you, I at least find your whining amusing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
It bores me.

What is not boring is the emo "I'm bored so stop posting" argument.  While, in truth, no one gives a shit about what bores you, I at least find your whining amusing.

can you cut an armor with my whining, though, or you need to thrust?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 18, 2014, 11:06:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
It bores me.

What is not boring is the emo "I'm bored so stop posting" argument.  While, in truth, no one gives a shit about what bores you, I at least find your whining amusing.

can you cut an armor with my whining, though, or you need to thrust?

I can show you a good thrust.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:06:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 18, 2014, 11:06:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
It bores me.

What is not boring is the emo "I'm bored so stop posting" argument.  While, in truth, no one gives a shit about what bores you, I at least find your whining amusing.

can you cut an armor with my whining, though, or you need to thrust?

I can show you a good thrust.

I'll pass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 18, 2014, 11:08:05 AM
It wasn't really an offer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 11:39:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
can you cut an armor with my whining, though, or you need to thrust?

Your whining can cut through Kleenex armor like a whine through Kleenex!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:41:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 18, 2014, 11:08:05 AM
It wasn't really an offer.

now you just broke my heart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 18, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
TAMAS level 1 gypsy

Str 12
Wis 11
Int 13
Cha 3
Con 12
Dex 18 (gypsy natural stealing ability)

Beetsword
Beet Leather Armor

Can steal one set of hubcaps undetected every 24 hours
Beet farming bonus
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 18, 2014, 06:15:53 PM
Leave Tampax alone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 18, 2014, 06:23:17 PM
Bork?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 18, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
I have to admit that bitching about talking about medieval combat in a GoT thread might be one of the most odd complaints I've seen on Languish. That isn't even close to a thread hijack. In case Tamas has not noticed, there is a lot of medieval fighting going on in Game of Thrones.

By Languish standards, this is as on topic as it gets.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on June 19, 2014, 02:08:11 AM
A thousand eyes and TWO. Wtf?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 19, 2014, 03:04:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 18, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
I have to admit that bitching about talking about medieval combat in a GoT thread might be one of the most odd complaints I've seen on Languish. That isn't even close to a thread hijack. In case Tamas has not noticed, there is a lot of medieval fighting going on in Game of Thrones.

By Languish standards, this is as on topic as it gets.

You should play LGG with me and Habs instead of being a total nerd here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 19, 2014, 03:17:25 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 18, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
TAMAS level 1 gypsy

Str 12
Wis 11
Int 13
Cha 3
Con 12
Dex 18 (gypsy natural stealing ability)

Beetsword
Beet Leather Armor

Can steal one set of hubcaps undetected every 24 hours
Beet farming bonus

JESUS CHRIST
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 19, 2014, 03:19:55 AM
Hardly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 19, 2014, 04:02:57 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 19, 2014, 03:19:55 AM
Hardly.

That's, like, your opinion, man.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2014, 07:27:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 18, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
I have to admit that bitching about talking about medieval combat in a GoT thread might be one of the most odd complaints I've seen on Languish. That isn't even close to a thread hijack. In case Tamas has not noticed, there is a lot of medieval fighting going on in Game of Thrones.

By Languish standards, this is as on topic as it gets.

And, anyway, my argument wasn't about whether swords should have been used, buut rather about how the swordfights involving Jon Snow and the last one with the Hound, ended up as fistfights.  It seemed like everybody was getting punched in the face and then disarmed, but that being disarmed wasn't a serious handicap, becuase you could always get inside the other's sword and punch or kick them.   I thought it was lol-funny after a while, but it wasn't dramatic at all, because three-stooges-level comedy isn't ever dramatic.

My complaint has nothing to do with "realistic" weapons or tactics (well, my complaint does according to cRazY cAnuCk, but he won't say why I think that or give me any details about what it is that I am sure of), it has to do with choreography.  The fight between the Mountain and Oberyn Martell, was very well-done, but Snow and the Hound don't get so lucky.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 21, 2014, 02:57:19 PM
Finally finished Book 4.

[spoiler]Thought Cersei's downfall was a bit too sudden and unlikely[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 21, 2014, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 21, 2014, 02:57:19 PM
Finally finished Book 4.

[spoiler]Thought Cersei's downfall was a bit too sudden and unlikely[/spoiler]

But it felt very good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 21, 2014, 05:13:01 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 21, 2014, 02:57:19 PM
Finally finished Book 4.

[spoiler]Thought Cersei's downfall was a bit too sudden and unlikely[/spoiler]

But it is all [spoiler]of her own making. She murdered the previous and pliable Head Septon because Tyrion arranged for his election and then she didn't arrange for a suitable and pliable one herself.  I especially like the subtle suggestions about how she is deteriorating as she drinks more and jamie is gone.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2014, 06:03:28 PM
[spoiler]Yeah, the instant she legalized armed religious orders I thought the writing was on the wall.  If not exactly her imprisonment, something else bad for the Lannisters.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 21, 2014, 06:17:11 PM
It just seemed strange that[spoiler]all of a sudden some hedge knight or whatever he was yells "Ive been fucking her" and all hell breaks loose. She's not even married at this point. I realize she created a monster when she armed the septons, but do they wield that much power. Can't Tommen be told to say "Release her at once.?"[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 21, 2014, 06:19:40 PM
As I wrote that last post, it dawned on me that I guess the [spoiler]treasonous charges against her are for conspiring to accuse Margaery of illicit affairs. Fair enough...but would the septon have that power? Wouldn't that be Tommen's call?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
The real problem here isn't about who has the power to do it, it is that with the death of Tywin, there isn't anyone with a monopoly on power at this point. It is basically chaos.

Tyrion really fucked up Westeros when he shot his dad. He was the only thing holding the entire sordid mess together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 21, 2014, 09:19:58 PM
Interesting take, Berkut, thanks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2014, 09:34:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
The real problem here isn't about who has the power to do it, it is that with the death of Tywin, there isn't anyone with a monopoly on power at this point. It is basically chaos.

Tyrion really fucked up Westeros when he shot his dad. He was the only thing holding the entire sordid mess together.

Yep.  And the combination of Littlefinger and Varys' machinations aren't helping, though at least Varys seems to have good intentions...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2014, 02:06:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
The real problem here isn't about who has the power to do it, it is that with the death of Tywin, there isn't anyone with a monopoly on power at this point. It is basically chaos.

Tyrion really fucked up Westeros when he shot his dad. He was the only thing holding the entire sordid mess together.

Tyrion either fucked up Westeros, or saved it.  it isn't like Tywin was using his power for the benefit of the kingdom as a whole.  Tywin was the guy who triggered the war, after all.

I agree with your contention that everyone is grabbing what power they can after the death of Tywin.  Customary powers don't mean a lot in that situation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2014, 02:06:17 AM
Tywin was the guy who triggered the war, after all.
I don't see how you reach that conclusion...
Cersei poisoned Robert, and Joffrey executed Ned Stark despite the agreement.  This prompted the war between the North and the Lannisters.  Robert's death prompted Stannis to declare war, as well as his brother.
Is there something I am forgetting?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 22, 2014, 09:47:21 AM
I wonder what would have happened if they had been able to control Joffrey....


I dont think Tywin's death has really screwed up much yet but the brewing stuff with the religious orders...we'll see how that goes. He wouldn't have stood for it though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2014, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
I don't see how you reach that conclusion...
Cersei poisoned Robert, and Joffrey executed Ned Stark despite the agreement.  This prompted the war between the North and the Lannisters.  Robert's death prompted Stannis to declare war, as well as his brother.
Is there something I am forgetting?

The war had started in the Riverlands before Robert even was killed.  Tywin had sent the Mountain on his rampage and he himself set out with a host to attack Harrenhal, all before Robert died.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 22, 2014, 05:21:32 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2014, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
I don't see how you reach that conclusion...
Cersei poisoned Robert, and Joffrey executed Ned Stark despite the agreement.  This prompted the war between the North and the Lannisters.  Robert's death prompted Stannis to declare war, as well as his brother.
Is there something I am forgetting?
The war had started in the Riverlands before Robert even was killed.  Tywin had sent the Mountain on his rampage and he himself set out with a host to attack Harrenhal, all before Robert died.
I agree that Tywin's gross (albeit predictable) overreaction to Catelyn's act of insanity was what really started things ablaze.  And for the sake of a son who he would really rather be killed in any event.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on June 22, 2014, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 22, 2014, 05:21:32 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2014, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
I don't see how you reach that conclusion...
Cersei poisoned Robert, and Joffrey executed Ned Stark despite the agreement.  This prompted the war between the North and the Lannisters.  Robert's death prompted Stannis to declare war, as well as his brother.
Is there something I am forgetting?
The war had started in the Riverlands before Robert even was killed.  Tywin had sent the Mountain on his rampage and he himself set out with a host to attack Harrenhal, all before Robert died.
I agree that Tywin's gross (albeit predictable) overreaction to Catelyn's act of insanity was what really started things ablaze.  And for the sake of a son who he would really rather be killed in any event.

At the time it was probably the most idiotic move he could have made with Ned Stark as Robert's Hand. What if they fail to murder him using the most convoluted murder scheme yet devised. What if Robert had realized he had a rebellious lord, just like Balon Greyjoy and he had an excuse to do what he wanted more than anything else in the world - plus - force tywin to cancel the debts as part of his submission to the King's Armies. Tywin, like Joffrey, doesn't seem to be a character, so much as a foil or plot device for other characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 22, 2014, 06:14:15 PM
How could Robert intervene effectively, being caught between the two sides?  It would be politically unfeasible for him to move against Tywin, since not only was Tywin propping Robert up, but if he acted against him then no noble would ever be able to support Robert again.  Why support a guy who replies by cancelling any favours he owes you with a sword to your neck?  And that's assuming that Robert would even have the power to defeat Tywin's armies in the first place.  And at the same time, Catelyn was obviously in the wrong, and Ned was wrong to support her.  Tywin was foolish to do what he did, but it's not like Robert could have acted effectively against him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2014, 07:13:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on June 22, 2014, 05:36:18 PM
At the time it was probably the most idiotic move he could have made with Ned Stark as Robert's Hand. What if they fail to murder him using the most convoluted murder scheme yet devised. What if Robert had realized he had a rebellious lord, just like Balon Greyjoy and he had an excuse to do what he wanted more than anything else in the world - plus - force tywin to cancel the debts as part of his submission to the King's Armies. Tywin, like Joffrey, doesn't seem to be a character, so much as a foil or plot device for other characters.

Indeed, that's what makes Tywin's acts so interesting.  For him to succeed, Robert had to be neutralized and Ned's power as Hand broken.  It's almost as if Tywin knew Robert was going to die...

Tywin's actions, as you note, make no sense in the long term if Robert hadn't been killed.  If Robert lives, then Ned's actions as Hand become de facto the law (and cat's actions justified).  As it is, Tywin gains invaluable positioning if Robert were to suffer a mischief.

Maybe Littlefinger was an even naughtier boy than we so far know. :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2014, 03:11:09 AM
Quote from: Neil on June 22, 2014, 06:14:15 PM
How could Robert intervene effectively, being caught between the two sides?  It would be politically unfeasible for him to move against Tywin, since not only was Tywin propping Robert up, but if he acted against him then no noble would ever be able to support Robert again.  Why support a guy who replies by cancelling any favours he owes you with a sword to your neck?  And that's assuming that Robert would even have the power to defeat Tywin's armies in the first place.  And at the same time, Catelyn was obviously in the wrong, and Ned was wrong to support her.  Tywin was foolish to do what he did, but it's not like Robert could have acted effectively against him.
If Robert survives the North, the Riverlands and the Stormlands will support him. I don't see how he survives without Cersei being outed/killed so he'll need a need Queen and the Tyrells have just the girl for the job.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2014, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2014, 09:34:14 PM

Yep.  And the combination of Littlefinger and Varys' machinations aren't helping, though at least Varys seems to have good intentions...

Does he?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2014, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2014, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2014, 09:34:14 PM

Yep.  And the combination of Littlefinger and Varys' machinations aren't helping, though at least Varys seems to have good intentions...

Does he?
Good for some people, not so good for others.  If you've read the books, they have gone further into his motivations and goals.  We think, anyway...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 23, 2014, 10:42:26 AM
Given that he seems to travel east with Tyrion, I wonder how are they going to reconcile the story with the future events he is supposed to be part of at King's Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2014, 10:52:49 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2014, 10:42:26 AM
Given that he seems to travel east with Tyrion, I wonder how are they going to reconcile the story with the future events he is supposed to be part of at King's Landing.

I think he just puts Tyrion on a ship.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 23, 2014, 11:17:07 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2014, 10:42:26 AM
Given that he seems to travel east with Tyrion, I wonder how are they going to reconcile the story with the future events he is supposed to be part of at King's Landing.

Considering his position, I would imagine it pretty trivial to have him head back to KL after seeing Tyrion off at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 23, 2014, 11:17:44 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2014, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2014, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 21, 2014, 09:34:14 PM

Yep.  And the combination of Littlefinger and Varys' machinations aren't helping, though at least Varys seems to have good intentions...

Does he?
Good for some people, not so good for others.  If you've read the books, they have gone further into his motivations and goals.  We think, anyway...

Yep.  From what information we have, we at least are lead to think Varys is up to bad things for good reasons.  Time will tell.  This is entirely consistent with what we have of him sneaking around in the first book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2014, 03:41:15 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2014, 10:16:08 AM
Good for some people, not so good for others.

Exactly.
And he doesn't sweat the collateral damage too much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2014, 05:23:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 23, 2014, 11:17:07 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2014, 10:42:26 AM
Given that he seems to travel east with Tyrion, I wonder how are they going to reconcile the story with the future events he is supposed to be part of at King's Landing.

Considering his position, I would imagine it pretty trivial to have him head back to KL after seeing Tyrion off at some point.
IIRC, In the books [spoiler]he only surreptitiously returns to KL; in fact, the Lannisters "know" he helped free Tyrion, because a jailer - actually another of his disguises - is found missing when he departs with Tyrion.  [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 23, 2014, 08:05:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 18, 2014, 11:06:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2014, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 18, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
It bores me.

What is not boring is the emo "I'm bored so stop posting" argument.  While, in truth, no one gives a shit about what bores you, I at least find your whining amusing.

can you cut an armor with my whining, though, or you need to thrust?

I can show you a good thrust.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 23, 2014, 08:14:19 PM
Anyway, about armor, a hundred years from now people, who will be wearing full power armor, will argue that primitive unpowered armor from the early 21st century was extremely heavy and very little effective at stopping bullets, and only stoopid piple used it.
Also, they will argue endlessly whether assault rifles or machine guns were more effective, and forget about the ways unarmored people fought armored foes, mostly with IEDs, RPGs and indirect fires like mortars and 107mm chinese made rockets.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 23, 2014, 08:41:06 PM
He's probably just popping over to bravos to say farewell and sort out some other business there. Braavos isn't too far away in the tv series, it's a casual jaunt
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2014, 06:57:01 AM
I saw a really great painting of Oberyn kissing his lady after killing the mountain somewhere but now I'm completely failing to find it. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
It is being rumoured that the guy who played Jaqen G'Har is getting re-hired for next season. Will he be Arya's sensei in Braavos?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 24, 2014, 10:09:38 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
It is being rumoured that the guy who played Jaqen G'Har is getting re-hired for next season. Will he be Arya's sensei in Braavos?

I guess I would rather we get to see whatever he is supposed to be doing in Oldtown.  But, you know, the books are not the show and so forth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on June 24, 2014, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
It is being rumoured that the guy who played Jaqen G'Har is getting re-hired for next season. Will he be Arya's sensei in Braavos?

The original guy or the face-changed guy we last saw?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:11:42 AM
Quote from: PRC on June 24, 2014, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
It is being rumoured that the guy who played Jaqen G'Har is getting re-hired for next season. Will he be Arya's sensei in Braavos?

The original guy or the face-changed guy we last saw?

The original, the German actor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:12:51 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 24, 2014, 10:09:38 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
It is being rumoured that the guy who played Jaqen G'Har is getting re-hired for next season. Will he be Arya's sensei in Braavos?

I guess I would rather we get to see whatever he is supposed to be doing in Oldtown.  But, you know, the books are not the show and so forth.

Oldtown hasn't appeared yet in the show and I guess it won't appear until late in the next season or the following one, so I guess that there could still be time for him to double on his assignments.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on June 24, 2014, 10:28:30 AM
A rightful monarch eyes up the Iron Throne:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F75772000%2Fjpg%2F_75772047_022857749.jpg&hash=3f59f074ffabcab7d5cdacca67786dbfec614586)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27990141
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27990141)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 24, 2014, 11:38:39 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 24, 2014, 10:28:30 AM
A rightful monarch eyes up the Iron Throne:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F75772000%2Fjpg%2F_75772047_022857749.jpg&hash=3f59f074ffabcab7d5cdacca67786dbfec614586)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27990141
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27990141)

Will she: crush the northern rebels?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 24, 2014, 11:41:31 AM
One can hope.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 24, 2014, 10:03:50 PM
Hey, Ender's brother, what's that in your avatar?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 25, 2014, 03:30:24 AM
Russia and China heroically facing off against the Evil G-20.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 25, 2014, 09:00:33 AM
Awesome. Can you post a high res copy here to take a good look at it?
Is it anime?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 25, 2014, 12:41:39 PM
I believe it's a Chinese political cartoon. Somebody (Syt?) posted it here before.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2014, 12:42:54 PM
Russian I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on July 01, 2014, 08:58:14 AM
Game Of Thrones themed wedding. No-one wanted to stay fr the reception...
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2014/07/01/game-of-thrones-fan-wedding-of-the-year/ (http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2014/07/01/game-of-thrones-fan-wedding-of-the-year/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 01, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
So their oldest kid is 15 and they finally got married.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on July 01, 2014, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 01, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
So their oldest kid is 15 and they finally got married.  :hmm:
Your point is? Several of my friends had their kids as bridesmaids/pages at their weddings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 01, 2014, 09:21:36 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 01, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
So their oldest kid is 15 and they finally got married.  :hmm:
That's what you're finding weird here? That seems pretty normal to me.

The less of these kinds of silly weddings the better. I'm still hoping for a quiet and unnoticed registry office affair.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on July 01, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 01, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
So their oldest kid is 15 and they finally got married.  :hmm:

when I read that first it was

"So, their oldest kid is 15 and she finally got married."

It's not very AGOT when the kids are "a man grown/a woman flowered" finally and only then getting married. One wonders what the bastard name in the east midlands is. Hood, Forest, Lime?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 01, 2014, 09:39:14 AM
Quote from: Brazen on July 01, 2014, 09:21:13 AM
Your point is?

There's hope for Grey Fox yet.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 01, 2014, 12:19:24 PM
:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 01, 2014, 12:31:18 PM
Quote from: Brazen on July 01, 2014, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 01, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
So their oldest kid is 15 and they finally got married.  :hmm:
Your point is? Several of my friends had their kids as bridesmaids/pages at their weddings.

Doesn't this means they are bastards?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 02, 2014, 02:35:31 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2014, 12:31:18 PM
Quote from: Brazen on July 01, 2014, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 01, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
So their oldest kid is 15 and they finally got married.  :hmm:
Your point is? Several of my friends had their kids as bridesmaids/pages at their weddings.

Doesn't this means they are bastards?

A lot of jurisdictions don't have the concept of bastardy at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 02, 2014, 05:06:25 AM
Apparently Spain (and more precisely Seville) has been confirmed as one of the shooting locations for next season, serving as backdrop for Dorne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on July 02, 2014, 06:13:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 02, 2014, 05:06:25 AM
Apparently Spain (and more precisely Seville) has been confirmed as one of the shooting locations for next season, serving as backdrop for Dorne.
The TV interpretation of Dorne is based on Spain? Never! :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 02, 2014, 06:33:11 AM
Quote from: Brazen on July 02, 2014, 06:13:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 02, 2014, 05:06:25 AM
Apparently Spain (and more precisely Seville) has been confirmed as one of the shooting locations for next season, serving as backdrop for Dorne.
The TV interpretation of Dorne is based on Spain? Never! :P

Would you rather have it shot in some studio in Northern Ireland?  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on July 02, 2014, 08:10:42 AM
Quote from: Brazen on July 01, 2014, 08:58:14 AM
Game Of Thrones themed wedding. No-one wanted to stay fr the reception...
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2014/07/01/game-of-thrones-fan-wedding-of-the-year/ (http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2014/07/01/game-of-thrones-fan-wedding-of-the-year/)
Need more wenches. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 02, 2014, 10:57:31 PM
Speaking of swords

http://www.combatant-magazine.com/flag/profile-samantha-swords/ (http://"http://www.combatant-magazine.com/flag/profile-samantha-swords/")
Quote
Profile: Samantha Swords
Posted on August 26, 2013 by Jane Hermiston    | 5 Replies

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.combatant-magazine.com%2Fflag%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2FSSwords-Rey-Alabastro-199x300.jpg&hash=23a9b6c4de159a1c6324003d40327fdaf8126f09)


The first of our fighter profiles on the blog features Samantha Swords.  A modern-day renaissance woman, Samantha is a film props/armour creator, actor, stunt fighter, environmentalist, artist, fighter and is passionate about feminism and equality. And amongst all that she somehow found time to chat to Combatant and answer a few questions about herself!

Name:  Samantha Swords (née Catto-Mott)

Where and what do you train?:  I have been learning WMA with the Order of the Boar at the Upper Hutt Martial Arts Academy in Wellington, New Zealand. My main instructor Colin McKinstry is well versed in many western martial arts from Italian rapier to bare-knuckle boxing, but I have mainly focussed on learning 15th Century German and Italian combat systems.

Please tell us more about your life outside WMA?: I'm an artist, actor and special-effects technician from the Blue Mountains, New South Wales. I moved to New Zealand at 18 and have been in the entertainment industry since 2008, mainly working with Weta Workshop on film productions such as Narnia, District 9, Superman: Man of Steel, the Hobbit trilogy, and most recently helping to build the HULC suit for Elysium.

I've been a part of creating props, weapons, costumes, armour, creatures and all manner of gore for over 20 films, which includes independent productions like Devil's Rock. I also have acted and stunt-fought onscreen and in many live performances in New Zealand and Australia. I'm an outdoor girl, excited about adventure and travelling. I care most about environmental conservation and inspiring people to pursue their passions.

Why did you start WMA?:  I've been incurably in love with sword fighting since about the time I could walk. My wonderful Mum made me my first wooden sword at age four, and (when I had grown larger) encouraged me into fencing, but I was never satisfied- I was fixated on the medieval blade.

When I was 19 I first stumbled upon a website that used the miraculous term, 'Western Martial Arts', and after a long and winding road of strange advice and even stranger teaching, I'd put together a patchwork of information that helped me recognise the best places to study. Once I had found good masters I felt that my journey as a fighter really started. Now I'm finding that the more I learn, the more I understand how little I know.

What advice would you give to women interested in WMA?:  Firstly: don't let anything hold you back. If you have passion, anything is possible- although you might need to adjust your expectations. Dedicate yourself to self-awareness, honesty and unrelenting excellence, and you will be grēat.

We ladies have a unique advantage over our sword brothers. As well as having a lower centre of gravity, we're predisposed to be physically inferior, which means that we have to work harder, be accurate and quite cunning to maintain the edge against most of our competition.

It may sound like an illogical advantage, but developing these attributes should happen anyway as a fighter; it's just necessary for women to get a headstart because we have less to offer in the brawn department. Due to WMA being in the infancy of its revival and having no solid divisions of weight or gender, we're allowed to be outmatched in competitions. This is good, it teaches humility for learning proper defence. We need to apply tireless dedication to getting things right, because the result is much more obvious when we don't.

I've found that for a weaker fighter to be successful in a scrap, we need to take advantage of the other's strength. Don't fall into the trap of muscling up and "being strong"- the more athletic/larger fighter will win every time. We need to have confidence in our natural attributes of smaller size and groundedness, and not try to fight like someone with much more physical bulk than we possess.

I'd advise any female fighters to look at aikido, kumi uchi, goju ryu, and all the fighting guides you can find that use biomechanics to take a pressure or force, and redirect it to compromise your opponent. This will enrich your understanding of historical European combat, because they all point to the same concept: that effective martial arts don't rely on speed, strength or agility, but an artful understanding of physics and how to apply it to the human body.  If your technique doesn't work because "you're not fast or strong enough", you're doing it wrong!

This advice goes for fighters of all genders, but I've found that we ladies have to learn the lesson faster, even though we're really 8 foot tall Amazons on the inside!

What are you most proud of in your time practicing WMA?:  I entered into a two day tournament after not having trained for a very long time, due to illness and a strong need to sit quietly in a mountain cabin for six months. When I emerged from my alpine convalescence I was unfit, out of practice and had absolutely no expectations of myself to perform well. It was probably foolish for me to compete in that state, but I did it because I wanted to see how much of my training I would actually remember, especially after so long a break. I knew that being under pressure with relatively-little preparation would show me where I really stood as a fighter.

When I entered the competition, I found that my grounding and patience were like nothing I'd experienced before. I relaxed through all my fights, remembered what I was supposed to do, and outmatched my opponents by allowing them to make the mistakes first... well, most of the time. I then went on to win the tournament, to my complete shock.   I see now that I'd spent my six months of downtime learning to fight the battle of will. I had developed my patience and persistence, applied them to get well, rebuild my life, and then do what I did in the ring.

It was a good lesson about attitude. By letting go of my desire to win and being at peace with probable failure, I was far more successful than my opponents. I had done it only for myself, and the accolades were very nice – but secondary.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.combatant-magazine.com%2Fflag%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2FSamantha-QueenOfSwords-200x300.jpg&hash=8d1745b2911a56425ef705f3b54b8176aa0d59ff)
James Gilberd Photography, 2013


How has practicing WMA helped/hindered other parts of your life?:  I see that all the different spheres that make up a person interweave and affect each other, so everything I learn about how to fight well I apply to the rest of my life.

For me, ancient martial arts teach much more than dealing with or avoiding conflict. My journey with WMA has helped me identify wonderful insights into the nature of energy, intention and a great many other things. I look for the patterns everywhere now, and am delighted by how they inform so much of the world. I feel a great strength from my own self-awareness, and a certain fearlessness towards pushing boundaries or engaging in conflict- not because I enjoy it, but because I'm good at it and generally only fight for the things I care about.

I recommend martial arts to everyone who wants to grow as a human being, regardless of what culture or style of conflict appeals to them. But for me, the sword is my first love.  So Western Martial Arts is where I'll be.

Here's an interview with her (http://"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X3wJamiEMw")


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2014, 04:19:51 AM
Game of Thrones, illustrated as traditional Japanese art.

http://imgur.com/a/wuLsm
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 03, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2014, 04:19:51 AM
Game of Thrones, illustrated as traditional Japanese art.

http://imgur.com/a/wuLsm

The world is a bizarre place.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 03, 2014, 09:32:28 AM
I've seen some of those before. There seems to be a lot of that sort of thing going around lately...or is it the same guy who did the video game wood blocks?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 04, 2014, 01:14:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 03, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2014, 04:19:51 AM
Game of Thrones, illustrated as traditional Japanese art.

http://imgur.com/a/wuLsm

The world is a bizarre place.
I don't see why this is especially bizarre. :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 03, 2014, 05:43:29 PM
this is kind of funny...girl who played Myrcella pissed at role being recast

http://www.avclub.com/article/game-thrones-actress-reacts-her-part-being-recast--207565

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 03, 2014, 05:44:27 PM
Considering I'm only half-way through Season 1 :unsure: this is going to be a bitch of thread to catch up on. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 03, 2014, 06:12:51 PM
Better avoid it entirely if you don't want to get massively spoiled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 03, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
Oh, I'll wait till I'm caught up first. 

Although I've noticed Sean Bean hasn't been in any Game of Thrones commercials lately.  :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on August 03, 2014, 06:16:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2014, 06:12:51 PM
Better avoid it entirely if you don't want to get massively spoiled.

Tyrion is Secretly Rhaegar Targaryen in disguise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 03, 2014, 06:21:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 03, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
Oh, I'll wait till I'm caught up first. 

Although I've noticed Sean Bean hasn't been in any Game of Thrones commercials lately.  :unsure:

They had to recast him after his accident.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 07:41:55 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 03, 2014, 05:43:29 PM
this is kind of funny...girl who played Myrcella pissed at role being recast

http://www.avclub.com/article/game-thrones-actress-reacts-her-part-being-recast--207565

:lol: Did she have a single line?  Honey, you were a prop.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 07:42:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 03, 2014, 06:21:24 PM
They had to recast him after his accident.

Hopefully he'll get better and come back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2014, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 07:41:55 PM
:lol: Did she have a single line?  Honey, you were a prop.

Still, if she was in the show at all they shouldn't replace her without a good reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 09:42:24 PM
If that's her in the vid, she grew up too quick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on August 03, 2014, 10:48:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 09:42:24 PM
If that's her in the vid, she grew up too quick.
What age is the TV character supposed to be? Aimee Richardson seems to have grown into a regal-looking almost woman.

Nell Tiger Free is still a kid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 11:24:23 PM
12-14, I think something like that.  Old enough to start plotting power marriages, too young to be betrothed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 04, 2014, 05:16:24 AM
But they've aged up Tommen quite a bit from an infant to a senior schooler.
I guess they're switching it around so Myrcella is the younger? SERIES RUINED FOREVER.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 04, 2014, 05:58:22 AM
It'll keep the feminists from whining about Salic law.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 04, 2014, 06:39:56 AM
Mycella is still older than Tommen in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 09, 2014, 11:33:02 PM
Anyway, Westeros is in the end a simulated reality in which the fat guys are avatars of the simulation designer.
People in there do not know they are not real. Only the Mountain that writes is real.
Makes you wonder about our real world, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on August 09, 2014, 11:35:13 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 09, 2014, 11:33:02 PM
Anyway, Westeros is in the end a simulated reality in which the fat guys are avatars of the simulation designer.
People in there do not know they are not real. Only the Mountain that writes is real.
Makes you wonder about our real world, doesn't it?

It does not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 09, 2014, 11:50:05 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 09, 2014, 11:35:13 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 09, 2014, 11:33:02 PM
Anyway, Westeros is in the end a simulated reality in which the fat guys are avatars of the simulation designer.
People in there do not know they are not real. Only the Mountain that writes is real.
Makes you wonder about our real world, doesn't it?

It does not.

Says Enders' brother. Also known as the Hegemon.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on August 10, 2014, 01:06:52 AM
OK, mon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on August 10, 2014, 12:15:57 PM
Now we know what happened to Tywin Lannister after that last episode of Game of Thrones. :D

new Dracula movie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2aWqecTTuE
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on August 11, 2014, 09:41:19 PM
Wajtever!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 11, 2014, 10:09:34 PM
I got to pose with the Iron Throne this past weekend.  Needless to say I'm smart enough to not wish to sit on it. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 18, 2014, 03:53:49 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-series-5-flashback-scenes-to-be-introduced-for-first-time-9802520.html

So they're going to have flashbacks in the next series.
That is one way to make it last longer without advancing the plot too much....hopefully we'll get to see the trident and the tower of joy :w00t:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 18, 2014, 06:14:41 AM
yay hopefully we get [spoiler]TOJ, Tysha and Maggie the Frog[/spoiler]

Don't expect any [spoiler]Bran and Heart-tree related ones as well as the Knight of the Laughing Tree since Bran and Hodor aren't in the next season. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on October 18, 2014, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2014, 03:53:49 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-series-5-flashback-scenes-to-be-introduced-for-first-time-9802520.html

So they're going to have flashbacks in the next series.
That is one way to make it last longer without advancing the plot too much....hopefully we'll get to see the trident and the tower of joy :w00t:

They cancelled Game of Thrones?!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2014, 01:40:55 PM
Jonathan Pryce is going to be the High Sparrow?  Oh that is awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on October 18, 2014, 01:45:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2014, 01:40:55 PM
Jonathan Pryce is going to be the High Sparrow?  Oh that is awesome.

I can see that working.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on October 18, 2014, 01:47:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2014, 01:40:55 PM
Jonathan Pryce is going to be the High Sparrow?  Oh that is awesome.

*cough*

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJ2NRHh9.jpg&hash=d59393795968ded7300b156abc7d4234ce5ffae9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on October 18, 2014, 01:50:49 PM
Woah.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on October 18, 2014, 02:03:36 PM
I wonder if this influenced the choice. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on October 18, 2014, 02:31:36 PM
They also hired Mr. Eko from Lost to play a character who doesn't appear in the books. Also, from the shooting that is taking place right now in Spain there will be scenes from Dorne featuring Jaime Lannister and another character who is being kept secret as "he's not supposed to be there".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 19, 2014, 05:58:00 AM
I just saw [spoiler]images of Nicolai Coster Waldau in dornish garb on the dornish set in filming. WTF? Is he replacing Aerys Oakheart? Are D&D re-tooling the entire Dornish story arc with something else to get to the same destination?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 19, 2014, 06:07:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 18, 2014, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2014, 03:53:49 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-series-5-flashback-scenes-to-be-introduced-for-first-time-9802520.html

So they're going to have flashbacks in the next series.
That is one way to make it last longer without advancing the plot too much....hopefully we'll get to see the trident and the tower of joy :w00t:

They cancelled Game of Thrones?!
:unsure: Ey?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on October 19, 2014, 06:25:40 AM
For what I read the main speculation is that Jaime will fill Balon Swann's role, not Arys Oakheart's. Besides, AFAIK Arianne hasn't been cast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 19, 2014, 09:23:32 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 19, 2014, 06:25:40 AM
For what I read the main speculation is that Jaime will fill Balon Swann's role, not Arys Oakheart's. Besides, AFAIK Arianne hasn't been cast.

You know what, that actually makes quite a bit of sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on October 20, 2014, 10:34:56 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 19, 2014, 06:07:37 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 18, 2014, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2014, 03:53:49 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-series-5-flashback-scenes-to-be-introduced-for-first-time-9802520.html

So they're going to have flashbacks in the next series.
That is one way to make it last longer without advancing the plot too much....hopefully we'll get to see the trident and the tower of joy :w00t:

They cancelled Game of Thrones?!
:unsure: Ey?

You said Next series?!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 20, 2014, 12:12:32 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 20, 2014, 10:34:56 AM

You said Next series?!

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F249%2F272%2F271.jpg&hash=5a62b11310167263d29438c0bdc90eee9115f14a)

:p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on October 20, 2014, 12:17:59 PM
Take a look at my avatar.

They are call season, Brit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on October 20, 2014, 03:22:47 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 20, 2014, 12:17:59 PM
Take a look at my avatar.

They are call season, Brit.

I don't think the "you are using English wrong" card is one you, in particular, want to play... especially when it was clear to everyone that Tyr was using the British meaning for series.

And who is that in your avatar?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 20, 2014, 03:27:54 PM
It's Steve McQueen, in lighting that makes him look like Leonardo DiCaprio.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Picture from the shooting in Spain, wit a big spoiler on it.  :ph34r:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg (http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on October 20, 2014, 05:59:24 PM
That is a spoiler. The books haven't gotten there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 20, 2014, 06:38:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 20, 2014, 05:59:24 PM
That is a spoiler. The books haven't gotten there.

hmmm.. that suggests to me the whole [spoiler]FAegon[/spoiler] arc will just be skipped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 20, 2014, 06:38:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 20, 2014, 05:59:24 PM
That is a spoiler. The books haven't gotten there.

hmmm.. that suggests to me the whole [spoiler]FAegon[/spoiler] arc will just be skipped.

Neither him nor Jon Connington have been cast, so I wouldn't count on seeing them this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on October 20, 2014, 08:42:25 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 20, 2014, 06:38:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 20, 2014, 05:59:24 PM
That is a spoiler. The books haven't gotten there.

hmmm.. that suggests to me the whole [spoiler]FAegon[/spoiler] arc will just be skipped.
And the people rejoiced.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on October 20, 2014, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 20, 2014, 06:38:44 PM
hmmm.. that suggests to me the whole [spoiler]FAegon[/spoiler] arc will just be skipped.

Bummer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Picture from the shooting in Spain, wit a big spoiler on it.  :ph34r:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg (http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg)

So we are getting ahead of the books next season? Cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Viking on October 21, 2014, 08:15:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Picture from the shooting in Spain, wit a big spoiler on it.  :ph34r:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg (http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg)

So we are getting ahead of the books next season? Cool.

Yes, Sansa and Bran both caught up with the books at the end of last season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on October 21, 2014, 08:30:14 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 21, 2014, 08:15:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Picture from the shooting in Spain, wit a big spoiler on it.  :ph34r:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg (http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg)

So we are getting ahead of the books next season? Cool.

Yes, Sansa and Bran both caught up with the books at the end of last season.
But Bran isn't supposed to appear in season 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 21, 2014, 08:15:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Picture from the shooting in Spain, wit a big spoiler on it.  :ph34r:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg (http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg)

So we are getting ahead of the books next season? Cool.

Yes, Sansa and Bran both caught up with the books at the end of last season.

Thank you, Ser Obvious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on October 21, 2014, 08:53:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 20, 2014, 03:22:47 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 20, 2014, 12:17:59 PM
Take a look at my avatar.

They are call season, Brit.

I don't think the "you are using English wrong" card is one you, in particular, want to play... especially when it was clear to everyone that Tyr was using the British meaning for series.

And who is that in your avatar?

The British meaning is wrong.

As PW said, Steve McQueen in The Great St. Louis Bank Robbery when he was ~29.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 21, 2014, 10:26:32 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 20, 2014, 05:59:24 PM
That is a spoiler. The books haven't gotten there.

Correct.  There is no plastic bottled water in any of the books.  Who could have guessed that the whole series was going to culminate in the birth of a petrochemical industry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 14, 2015, 04:01:47 PM
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh! :x


http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/A_Peek_at_What_Was
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on February 14, 2015, 04:23:36 PM
Grow up.  If you have even bothered to read the series, that is hardly outside of the realm that it has gone into.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 14, 2015, 04:29:29 PM
WHAT HAPPEN

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 14, 2015, 04:36:14 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 14, 2015, 04:23:36 PM
Grow up.  If you have even bothered to read the series, that is hardly outside of the realm that it has gone into.
I like those characters though. It's just different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 14, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
QuoteWhere can I actually see the story, I've clicked on the page links but nothing comes up? :/

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on February 14, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
JON AND ARYA WERE SUPPOSED TO BE IN LOVE ZOMG
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on February 14, 2015, 05:28:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 21, 2014, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 20, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Picture from the shooting in Spain, wit a big spoiler on it.  :ph34r:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg (http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4471195.ece/alternates/s615/Game-of-the-Thrones.jpg)

So we are getting ahead of the books next season? Cool.

Seems like a rather large Fast Forward though in the little one's case, no? [spoiler]\i'm assuming that is Tyrion? What about the ship journey? The female midget? The pigs?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]And Daenerys...lots still have to happen to her.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 16, 2015, 07:37:02 PM
 :hmm:

http://comicbook.com/2015/02/16/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-says-people-are-going-to-die-w/

Quote[spoiler]Game Of Thrones: George R.R. Martin Says People Are Going To Die Who Don't Die In The Books

A Song of Ice and Fire autor George R.R. Martin has earned a reputation for being a particular deadly writer, when it comes to his characters. It turns out Martin may have met his betters in that department in D.B. Weiss and David Benioff, the creators and showrunners of Game of Thrones, the television adaptation of Martin's fantasy series. Martin made a surprise appearance at Saturday night's Writers Guild West Awards, and warned fans that Weiss and Benioff were planning to up the death toll in Game of Thrones Season 5 from what it was in Martin's books.

"People are going to die who don't die in the books, so even the book readers will be unhappy," Martin said. "So everybody better be on their toes. David and D.B. are even bloodier than I am."

Game of Thrones Season 5 will be an interesting one for fans of Martin's original series, as the television adaptation has begun to catch up with the book series. Fans will be left to wonder what a death of a character on screen who is still alive in the books will mean for that character once Martin's final two books in the series are released.

Speaking of those final two books, Martin tells ShowBiz411 that he's planning that he's still got two books left to write, but how many seasons of television that translates into is up to Benioff, Weiss, and HBO.

"This is the fifth season, the sixth season HBO picked up last year. We will have a 7th, 8th or 9th, no one knows. They only renew one or two seasons at a time. After we do season 6, maybe we'll get a renewal for 7th and 8th. That all depends, Television is a very changeable medium.

"Yeah, it's the hottest show on TV now, but will it be the hottest show on TV two years from now? Hot shows come and go and television changes, and I've lived through that before. I certainly hope that we get to tell the entire story. Because whatever happens with the show I'm going to finish the books, it will be seven books. But each of these books are 1500 pages long and they each have enough material in them for several seasons. I have two more books, the one I'm writing right now, The Winds Of Winter, and after that the last book, The Dream of Spring, so those will be the two final books. But we're talking 3000 pages of material. How many seasons that translates too? That's up to D.B. And David.[/spoiler]"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on February 16, 2015, 07:41:18 PM
Why do you put the article in spoilers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on February 16, 2015, 07:42:55 PM
Oh good not enough people have died in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 16, 2015, 07:54:34 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 16, 2015, 07:41:18 PM
Why do you put the article in spoilers?
[spoiler]I think he did that because he could.  There certainly isn't any spoiler material in what he tagged.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 16, 2015, 08:06:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 16, 2015, 07:42:55 PM
Oh good not enough people have died in the books.

I actually think that Weiss and Benioff have a better feel for the story at this point than Martin does.  He's gone potboilerish on the series, but they have a limit to what they can get funded.  I think two more seasons is probably the limit. Even The Sopranos ended after six seasons, and HBO learned from True Blood that stretching beyond that is dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on February 18, 2015, 05:25:12 AM
I just hope the series goes in a different direction and we don't get an ironic situation where the series starts spoiling the books
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 18, 2015, 08:19:51 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 18, 2015, 05:25:12 AM
I just hope the series goes in a different direction and we don't get an ironic situation where the series starts spoiling the books
That is already happening.  Martin and HBO have worked out how each is going to end their story, and the show won't end like the books... which is to say that the show will end, unlike the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 03, 2015, 10:47:04 PM
I was quite willing to take this on faith, no investigastion was needed.

http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2012/12/10/guest-post-the-wine-grapes-of-westeros/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on March 19, 2015, 09:54:46 AM
More Danes!

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 19, 2015, 10:17:05 AM
Liep, what's that X?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on March 19, 2015, 10:44:05 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 19, 2015, 10:17:05 AM
Liep, what's that X?


Better?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 19, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
Oh shit, that's that ugly woman that take a bunch of wildlings to die by the shivering sea, in hardhome, pass the haunted forest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 19, 2015, 03:17:34 PM
Um.  No it isn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 19, 2015, 03:40:44 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iceposter.com%2Fthumbs%2FG659402_b.jpg&hash=7da58afb8d7962fa654fa3ee3e36631858ac98aa)

Definately not ugly.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 19, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
Yeah, that is one sexy img icon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 19, 2015, 08:24:25 PM
does it work now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 19, 2015, 08:43:33 PM
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on March 20, 2015, 12:19:29 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 19, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
Oh shit, that's that ugly woman that take a bunch of wildlings to die by the shivering sea, in hardhome, pass the haunted forest.

I think it might be. She plays a "chieftainess," and [spoiler]Hardhome is making an appearance this season.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 20, 2015, 01:29:59 AM
Of all bizarre things about nerds, their extreme obsession with spoilere must be the one that is most annoying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on March 20, 2015, 07:46:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2015, 01:29:59 AM
Of all bizarre things about nerds, their extreme obsession with spoilere must be the one that is most annoying.

Hiding them or talking about them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 20, 2015, 08:57:45 AM
Hiding spoilers is a courtesy to others, not something socially awkward people are known for.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on March 20, 2015, 10:24:34 AM
Bullshit, spoilers only exist because of on demand & delayed watching.

Around the watercooler there is no spoiler warnings. You have seen it or you have not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2015, 10:32:20 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 19, 2015, 03:40:44 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iceposter.com%2Fthumbs%2FG659402_b.jpg&hash=7da58afb8d7962fa654fa3ee3e36631858ac98aa)

Definately not ugly.

Is she Scandinavian?

The hottest Scandinavian chicks are the ones who look like elves and fairies IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 20, 2015, 10:56:19 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 20, 2015, 10:24:34 AM
Bullshit, spoilers only exist because of on demand & delayed watching.

Around the watercooler there is no spoiler warnings. You have seen it or you have not.

That type of conversation typically begins with a comment like "So did you see ____ last night?" Also, there are a limited number of participants. Sure, people can still be assholes and go out of their way to spoil things, but I wouldn't say that's evidence of strong social skills.

Posts on a forum like this are more like announcements to the entire office. People at the water cooler can leave if they don't want to hear about the latest episode of ____.

(And yes, I'm not really talking about this thread so much, but the TV/Movies thread and other places where it shouldn't be assumed everyone has been keeping up with that particular show).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 20, 2015, 12:32:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2015, 10:32:20 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 19, 2015, 03:40:44 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iceposter.com%2Fthumbs%2FG659402_b.jpg&hash=7da58afb8d7962fa654fa3ee3e36631858ac98aa)

Definately not ugly.

Is she Scandinavian?

The hottest Scandinavian chicks are the ones who look like elves and fairies IMO.
Liep says she's Danish.  Her IMDB page says she's from Denmark.  With a name like Sorensen, I expect her to be scandinavian, but what do I know? :D

I think she has beautiful eyes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 20, 2015, 03:46:01 PM
Well, where are the pictures?
There has to be more than that crap Liep posted...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maladict on March 20, 2015, 04:25:42 PM
She played the reporter in Borgen, right? She could do better than GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 21, 2015, 09:33:49 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 20, 2015, 03:46:01 PM
Well, where are the pictures?
There has to be more than that crap Liep posted...
Birgitte Hjort Sørensen.  Search for yourself :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 24, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Looked up the city were the King's Landing scenes were filmed. Wow, those walls make Constantinople pale in comparison. 25 meters high and 4-6 meters thick. Were they expecting to be assaulted by the host of Sauron?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Dubrovnik
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 24, 2015, 05:20:00 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 24, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Looked up the city were the King's Landing scenes were filmed. Wow, those walls make Constantinople pale in comparison. 25 meters high and 4-6 meters thick. Were they expecting to be assaulted by the host of Sauron?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Dubrovnik

It was an independent city-state in the middle of much stronger powers. You do the math.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 24, 2015, 06:28:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 24, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Looked up the city were the King's Landing scenes were filmed. Wow, those walls make Constantinople pale in comparison. 25 meters high and 4-6 meters thick. Were they expecting to be assaulted by the host of Sauron

More like Venetians or Ottomans
Both of whom successfully besieged Constantinople, so you can see why they might have thought they needed something better.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 26, 2015, 02:46:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 24, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Looked up the city were the King's Landing scenes were filmed. Wow, those walls make Constantinople pale in comparison. 25 meters high and 4-6 meters thick. Were they expecting to be assaulted by the host of Sauron?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Dubrovnik

Oh shit, that's Ragusa!
I know Ragusa!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 26, 2015, 05:44:44 PM
Thanks EU1!  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 26, 2015, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 24, 2015, 06:28:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 24, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Looked up the city were the King's Landing scenes were filmed. Wow, those walls make Constantinople pale in comparison. 25 meters high and 4-6 meters thick. Were they expecting to be assaulted by the host of Sauron

More like Venetians or Ottomans
Both of whom successfully besieged Constantinople, so you can see why they might have thought they needed something better.
The Ottomans took Constantinople beacuse they had cannons. Wouldn't a wall half as high, buy twice as thick be more effective against them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on March 27, 2015, 12:42:11 AM
The cannons were HIGHLY ineffective against the walls. Constantinople was taken by one of the bloodiest assaults in the history of mankind (okay that is an exaggeration) but cannons weren't sufficiently effective enough to account for the fall of the city; I wouldn't even say they were a significant contributing factor except for maybe the effect on morale.

Anyone disagree?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on March 27, 2015, 01:30:58 AM
Quote from: Jaron on March 27, 2015, 12:42:11 AM
The cannons were HIGHLY ineffective against the walls. Constantinople was taken by one of the bloodiest assaults in the history of mankind (okay that is an exaggeration) but cannons weren't sufficiently effective enough to account for the fall of the city; I wouldn't even say they were a significant contributing factor except for maybe the effect on morale.

Anyone disagree?

Orban frowns on your shenanigans. :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on March 27, 2015, 02:59:56 AM
To settle this, I suggest people watch the impressive historical documentary Conquest 1453. It's most impartial and evenhanded.  :)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdvd.box.sk%2Fnewsimg%2Fdvdmov%2Fmax1347321938-front-cover.jpg&hash=887d4964b1106c06087428995edd159973d39d71)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FAbout%2FGeneral%2F2012%2F4%2F11%2F1334153641000%2FFetih-1453-008.jpg&hash=a911c7fbeabb5540e87c60a56beb455adb4ff829)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seP-jvRceNY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on March 27, 2015, 05:56:58 AM
Now I need to see that. :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 28, 2015, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: Jaron on March 27, 2015, 12:42:11 AM
The cannons were HIGHLY ineffective against the walls. Constantinople was taken by one of the bloodiest assaults in the history of mankind (okay that is an exaggeration) but cannons weren't sufficiently effective enough to account for the fall of the city; I wouldn't even say they were a significant contributing factor except for maybe the effect on morale.

Anyone disagree?

The cannons reduced the walls to the point a bloody assault became possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
Syt, do you mean the turkish movie Fetih 1453?
How in hell is that fair and even handed?

It uses the old muslim trick of exagerating the power of their enemies to make their victory seem that much more heroic.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:35:35 AM
Syt, this is just from Wikipedia, not the most reliable source when talking about muslims:


Historical Accuracy[edit]

There are numerous historical inaccuracies in the film. For instance, its portrayal of the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine XI, as a hedonist (he was mostly celibate). The city at the time was far from its magnificence (which was long gone, as it had been sacked by western crusaders in 1204). The Great Palace was not in use at the time.[4] The film's portrayals of the Byzantines as a wealthy, powerful empire whose rulers lived lives of decadence and luxury at the time of the Conquest may be motivated for dramatic purposes, but they do not reflect the true situation in Constantinople in 1453.[5]

The film only depicts the ethnically Turkish element of the Ottoman army. In reality, the Ottoman army was very diverse, including many Balkan converts to Islam as well as Christian levies and the armies of the Sultan's Christian vassals.[6]

Giovanni Giustiniani was wounded by an Ottoman cannon while defending the walls of Constantinople, as opposed to being killed in single combat. Some sources say the wound was caused by a crossbow bolt. He died of the effects of his wound in the early days of June 1453.[4]

Constantine XI is given a burial. In fact he had died fighting at the gates and as customary for Ottoman troops, his body was beheaded. Although his body was recovered, his head was not, leading many Byzantines to believe that Constantine XI was alive.[7]

Sultan Mehmet entered the city after one day of looting of the army.[8]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:36:00 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
Syt, do you mean the turkish movie Fetih 1453?
How in hell is that fair and even handed?

It uses the old muslim trick of exagerating the power of their enemies to make their victory seem that much more heroic.

I do not know if that is an exclusively Muslim trick, but yeah the defenders of Constantinople were a pretty pathetic lot compared to their enemies.

QuoteThe film's portrayals of the Byzantines as a wealthy, powerful empire whose rulers lived lives of decadence and luxury at the time of the Conquest may be motivated for dramatic purposes, but they do not reflect the true situation in Constantinople in 1453

But it DOES reflect the true situation in Constantinople in 1753 so maybe there was a message of solidarity between empires.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 30, 2015, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
It uses the old muslim trick of exagerating the power of their enemies to make their victory seem that much more heroic.

Kind of like the US invasion of Grenada.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 30, 2015, 10:48:09 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 30, 2015, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
It uses the old muslim trick of exagerating the power of their enemies to make their victory seem that much more heroic.

Kind of like the US invasion of Grenada.

Hey!
They had , uh, Grenadiers!
All we had was Clint Eastwood and a telephone charge card.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 30, 2015, 10:40:17 AM
Kind of like the US invasion of Grenada.

Huh. It seemed like even at the time that was seen as a joke.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 30, 2015, 11:01:48 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 30, 2015, 10:40:17 AM
Kind of like the US invasion of Grenada.

Huh. It seemed like even at the time that was seen as a joke.

Minsky got the reference I was thinking about
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 30, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
The exaggerated portrayal of Byzantium in 1453 in the Turkish movie would seem to be more of a "Hollywood trick" than a "Muslim" one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 30, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
The exaggerated portrayal of Byzantium in 1453 in the Turkish movie would seem to be more of a "Hollywood trick" than a "Muslim" one.

Yep. Watching Fatih overwhelm a tiny impoverished city with an impressive 1000 year old wall and little else is not particularly entertaining.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on March 30, 2015, 11:31:25 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
Syt, do you mean the turkish movie Fetih 1453?
How in hell is that fair and even handed?

It uses the old muslim trick of exagerating the power of their enemies to make their victory seem that much more heroic.
Stop trolling you gimboid, I was facetious. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 30, 2015, 11:31:25 AM
gimboid

Harsh toke! :o
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 30, 2015, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 30, 2015, 11:31:25 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
Syt, do you mean the turkish movie Fetih 1453?
How in hell is that fair and even handed?

It uses the old muslim trick of exagerating the power of their enemies to make their victory seem that much more heroic.
Stop trolling you gimboid, I was facetious. :P

Well, you should specify so, eat my troll.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 06, 2015, 05:33:56 PM
All deaths by seasons:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/entertainment/game-of-thrones/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 07, 2015, 08:32:38 PM
Game of thrones, Sesame Street style :D

http://youtu.be/dhWUFXvaZjo
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 12:30:31 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 03:46:36 AM
So, as weird ships go, apparnetly for a portion of fans online, both Santyr (Petsa?) and Themsay (Rameon?) are viable.

Internet. :bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 08, 2015, 03:49:44 AM
Tyrsei for life!  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 03:51:49 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 08, 2015, 03:49:44 AM
Tyrsei for life!  :P

Is that Tyrion + Cersei or Tywin + Cersei? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 08, 2015, 03:53:16 AM
The one that doesn't involve necrophilia.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 04:23:31 AM
And here's an analysis of GoT characters based on their (alleged) Myers Briggs profile:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orangedrink.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FGame-of-Thrones-Myers-Briggs.jpg&hash=20337226b507a7018a7992e6268db9173e12f7e3)

Not sure how accurate that is, but based on my most common results (including one evaluation done professionally by a psychologist/coach at work) I would have the personality of Petyr Baelish with a touch of Tywin Lannister.  :hmm:

My direct opposites would be Samwell Tarly and Theon Greyjoy - which is right as I can't stand losers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2015, 05:53:09 AM
Because we all wanted the opinion of Malthus aunt on the subject

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2015/mar/22/margaret-atwood-on-game-of-thrones-season-five
QuoteMargaret Atwood on Game of Thrones: 'Real people, every murderous one'

With the fifth season of Game of Thrones beginning next month, acclaimed novelist Margaret Atwood explains why she finds the show – inspired by literature and the real monarchs of our blood-soaked medieval history – so compelling, while five other famous fans share their devotion to Westeros

Margaret Atwood

Sunday 22 March 2015 07.00 GMT

Once sucked in, you stay sucked. Be warned.

On one side of the artefact/audience interchange, avid faces will be squashed up against the screen; on the other side, avid faces will simply be squashed, and then cut off, attached to other people's heads, sewn on to wolves, painted with tar, or stuck on spikes. As the Immortal Name, Robert Burns, has it: "Clap in his walie nieve a blade, He'll make it whissle; An legs an arms, an heads will sned, Like taps o thrissle."

Those legs and arms and heads are as good as snedded, because this series must surely have not only the longest cast list of all time, but also the highest body count. Will it be last man standing? Last dragon standing? Or last metaphor-for-climate-change standing – the pale, deadly-cold Others and their troops of the barrow-wightish, zombie-ish Undead with their LED blue eyes who bring endless winter? Funforall, as James Joyce punned of funerals. And it is fun for all, except for the underage, because this is Ivanhoe with the rape and gutting scenes included. Not to mention the incest, the patricide, and the kiddie murders. Freud goes on the rampage! The return of the repressed, times 100!

Yes, it's Game of Thrones, that mesmerisingly popular television series that surely draws its inspiration from so many fictional sources it's hard to keep track. The Iliad, the Odyssey, Beowulf, ancient Egypt, H Rider Haggard, The Sword in the Stone, the Ring Cycle, Tolkien, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the Mabinogion, Harry Potter, The Jungle Book, Ursula K Le Guin, Hans Christian Andersen, Idylls of the King, Conan the Barbarian – himself the stolen-away downmarket twin of Walt Whitman – and The Wind In the Willows. You may laugh at this last citation, but mark:

"They were but four in all, but to the panic-stricken Lannisters the hall seemed full of monstrous warriors, grey, black, brown and yellow, whooping and flourishing enormous swords; and they broke and fled with squeals of terror and dismay, this way and that, through the windows, up the chimney, anywhere to get out of reach of those terrible weapons."

I changed only four words: "weasels," "cudgels," "sticks," and "animals." Maybe I should have substituted "shouts" or "screams" for "squeals," squealing not being a thing a Lannister would do unless subject to unspeakable physical or spiritual tortures in underground caverns; but otherwise, be honest with yourself: it fits. In the sword-and-sorcery formula at work in Game of Thrones, the sorcery has its moments, but the swords prevail. There are no unemployed ironsmiths anywhere in the north, the south, or the points west on the useful maps at the fronts of the books.

A sidenote on the dragons. The past thousand-and-a-half years has given us a range of dragons, from the lucky dragons of China, to the tussling red and white dragons of Welsh lore, to the dragon of St George fame, substitute for Satan, to the Zen-ish, wise, riddling dragons of Le Guin's Earthsea, to the hoarding, miserly dragons of Beowulf and The Hobbit. George RR Martin's dragons are more like superweapon bazookas. They're aesthetically attractive – more so in the books than in the series, where they have less delicate pink tracery and more scaly pterodactyl beakiness – but, so far, they don't talk.

Luckily they're in the hands of a character we can actually approve of, more or less. Daenerys Targaryen surely has the blood of Uther Pendragon flowing in her veins, and we expect she will live up to it. The hairstyle is a bit High Elven, but why carp? There are only so many high fantasy hairstyles to go around, and, unlike Cate Blanchett in the Tolkien films, she doesn't have pointed ears. Not that Cate doesn't look good in them, mind you.

So what else can be said about Game of Thrones, apart from I can hardly wait? I asked some people younger than myself what it was they especially love about the series. The acting, said some: so well done! The characters, said others. (Nobody said "the lavish outfits", but I wasn't fooled.) "What is it about the characters that you like?" I enquired. They're mixed, they answered. It's not all good on one side and bad on the other. They behave well or horribly according to the circumstances which they find themselves in. They're like real people.

Except that some of them are like real psychopaths. Was it absolutely necessary, as "necessary" might be defined by, say, that helpful arch-pragmatist, Machiavelli, to cement one's power position by cutting the head off darling Robb Stark and sewing his direwolf's head onto his neck at that aptly named Red Wedding? No, it was not necessary, it was gratuitous. But the Game of Thrones folk go in for symbolism, in addition to conceptual needlecraft.

We might also say: if Game of Thrones is a game, what then is reality? What are "real people" like? Or possibly real aristocrats battling lethal rivals, most of whom are family members, since they are all so stunningly inbred. By mere chance, I happened to pick up Terry Breverton's Richard III: The King in the Car Park, which attempts to explain why who was killing whom in the Wars of the Roses, and largely succeeds. (You have to pay close attention, because the bodies fall like snow.) "The Plantagenets had been their own worst enemies, killing nearly all claimants to the crown. Sons had rebelled against kings, brothers had fought brothers, wives had fought husbands, various Plantagenets had usurped the rightful monarch and so on. Plantagenet history is drenched in bloodshed and intrigue..." Those were real people. Lancaster and York, Lannister and Stark? Suggestive, at any rate. Kill or be killed was the watchword; without it, there would never have been a golden age of Elizabeth I, the Faerie Queene.

Also by chance, I've been reading the 1970s Maurice Druon series of historical novels, Les Rois Maudits – The Accursed Kings – that trace the Capetian monarchs of France in the 13th and 14th centuries. Burnings at the stake, adulteries, castrations, stranglings, poisoned candies, baby murder, and hot pokers up the rear, just for starters; plus daring escapes from such strongholds as the Tower of London, intrigues, necromancy, money-lenders pulling the strings, religious leaders ditto, and more. What a treat to discover that this series strongly influenced George RR Martin; but, on second thought, how unsurprising. Because these, too, were real people, every murderous one.
Advertisement

Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, we wish you well, even though we have trouble spelling your name. May the Force be with you! We think you will make a dandy Faerie Queene, once you've obliterated those cold Snow King Others thanks to the fire at your command. Unlike Elizabeth I, you may even get married and have some little Pendragons, though we hesitate to place bets on the identity of the groom. Odds on it won't be Tyrion Lannister, though he does have a touch of nobility, as his Tyrian purple name suggests. We do hope he survives the bloodbath, or baths. After all he's been through, we'd be sad to see his neck with a donkey's head sewn on to it. Or something equally Shakespearean.

© OW Toad Ltd 2015. Game of Thrones returns to Sky Atlantic on Monday 13 April at 9pm
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 08, 2015, 01:40:22 PM
http://www.mtv.com/news/2125566/jon-snow-dinner-party-seth-meyers/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
So, since we are in the no book territory for Littlefinger and Sansa, any speculations where they are going?

[spoiler]Dorne, or perhaps to join with Euron Stormcrow?[/spoiler] Could they be reusing the [spoiler]Young Dragon[/spoiler] story somehow with Littlefinger?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 13, 2015, 05:20:09 AM
Good start. All the story lines seem to go in interesting directions, except, of course, for Jon who's still a whiny bitch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 13, 2015, 05:33:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
So, since we are in the no book territory for Littlefinger and Sansa, any speculations where they are going?

[spoiler]Dorne, or perhaps to join with Euron Stormcrow?[/spoiler] Could they be reusing the [spoiler]Young Dragon[/spoiler] story somehow with Littlefinger?

Sincerely I have no idea and I'm more than willing to be surprised. Most certainly we'll be entering uncharted territory with them this season, and it makes me giddy.

Btw...[spoiler]I'd say that there's no Rattleshirt-Mance switcheroo in the show, so bye bye Ciaran Hinds.  :([/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 05:55:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 13, 2015, 05:33:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
So, since we are in the no book territory for Littlefinger and Sansa, any speculations where they are going?

[spoiler]Dorne, or perhaps to join with Euron Stormcrow?[/spoiler] Could they be reusing the [spoiler]Young Dragon[/spoiler] story somehow with Littlefinger?

Sincerely I have no idea and I'm more than willing to be surprised. Most certainly we'll be entering uncharted territory with them this season, and it makes me giddy.

Btw...[spoiler]I'd say that there's no Rattleshirt-Mance switcheroo in the show, so bye bye Ciaran Hinds.  :([/spoiler]

Some speculated that [spoiler]Mance at the execution looked somewhat differently than Mance in the dungeon but I think this is more wishful thinking[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 13, 2015, 05:59:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 05:55:07 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 13, 2015, 05:33:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
So, since we are in the no book territory for Littlefinger and Sansa, any speculations where they are going?

[spoiler]Dorne, or perhaps to join with Euron Stormcrow?[/spoiler] Could they be reusing the [spoiler]Young Dragon[/spoiler] story somehow with Littlefinger?

Sincerely I have no idea and I'm more than willing to be surprised. Most certainly we'll be entering uncharted territory with them this season, and it makes me giddy.

Btw...[spoiler]I'd say that there's no Rattleshirt-Mance switcheroo in the show, so bye bye Ciaran Hinds.  :([/spoiler]

Some speculated that [spoiler]Mance at the execution looked somewhat differently than Mance in the dungeon but I think this is more wishful thinking[/spoiler].

[spoiler]Wishful thinking indeed. His way of talking and carrying himself was entirely Mance-like, if it was Rattleshirt he would have behaved much differently.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 06:15:45 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 13, 2015, 05:20:09 AM
Good start. All the story lines seem to go in interesting directions, except, of course, for Jon who's still a whiny bitch.

I gotta disagree - I think for the first time the Wall storyline is actually interesting so you gotta give credit where credit is due.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 13, 2015, 07:06:42 AM
My gf watched the 1ere with me.

Her main comment : There is A LOT of characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 13, 2015, 08:16:28 AM
First 4 episodes have been leaked. Reviewers copies, so not the best quality I've heard
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 10:03:16 AM
I decided against watching them, partially because of the quality reasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:06:39 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 13, 2015, 08:16:28 AM
First 4 episodes have been leaked. Reviewers copies, so not the best quality I've heard

I don't think that they are low quality because they are reviewers' copies, but because someone decided that they were to be compressed into a single torrent.

I'm not much interested in having nothing to look forward to for four weeks, so I'll pass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
Funny how they're ahead of the books in one or two story lines and far behind in others.

[spoiler]I wonder if Sam Tarwell and co. are gonna take that boat ride to the Free Cities.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:51:41 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
Funny how they're ahead of the books in one or two story lines and far behind in others.

[spoiler]I wonder if Sam Tarwell and co. are gonna take that boat ride to the Free Cities.[/spoiler]

I think that they are just skipping a bunch of the less important and interesting story lines.
[spoiler]No reason to show Tarwell in the Free Cities.  He'll probably set off in one episode and arrive at his destination the next episode.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 13, 2015, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
Funny how they're ahead of the books in one or two story lines and far behind in others.

[spoiler]I wonder if Sam Tarwell and co. are gonna take that boat ride to the Free Cities.[/spoiler]
Indeed.
Part of me is saying its because much of 5 happened at the same time as 4 but with different people. But....it does seem some stories are out of synch...

It was interesting they showed the scene with young Cersei. Have they ever done this kind of flashback thing before? Usually people just tell stories about past events.
Fingers crossed we get to see the Trident and Tower of Joy sometime. I guess the prediction that we would need Bran as a vehicle for this is a bit awry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 13, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
Funny how they're ahead of the books in one or two story lines and far behind in others.

[spoiler]I wonder if Sam Tarwell and co. are gonna take that boat ride to the Free Cities.[/spoiler]

The books became incoherent in terms of chronology because of Martin's notion of writing two books which overlapped eachother.    The TV writers have to splice the story lines back together.  Judging from the first episode they are going to do a good job.     
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
What I am most interested in this season is the indications of how close they are to wrapping up the story.  If HBO types are smart, they are looking at this season and one more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 11:00:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 13, 2015, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
Funny how they're ahead of the books in one or two story lines and far behind in others.

[spoiler]I wonder if Sam Tarwell and co. are gonna take that boat ride to the Free Cities.[/spoiler]
Indeed.
Part of me is saying its because much of 5 happened at the same time as 4 but with different people. But....it does seem some stories are out of synch...

It was interesting they showed the scene with young Cersei. Have they ever done this kind of flashback thing before? Usually people just tell stories about past events.
Fingers crossed we get to see the Trident and Tower of Joy sometime. I guess the prediction that we would need Bran as a vehicle for this is a bit awry.

No, it is the first flashback ever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 13, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
What I am most interested in this season is the indications of how close they are to wrapping up the story.  If HBO types are smart, they are looking at this season and one more.

Why would that be smart? The series makes money.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on April 13, 2015, 12:10:13 PM
i think grumbler was right that D&D have a better grasp on the story than GRRM at this point. i've only seen the first two episodes of this season, but the simplified/consolidated/killed/ storylines seem to work much better.

episode two kinda-spoiler!
[spoiler]i half wished they had changed arya's storyline so she didn't join the faceless.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 13, 2015, 12:39:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
If HBO types are smart, they are looking at this season and one more.
Two more, actually.  The plan is to end it by the 7th season.  The writers want 7 seasons, HBO leans toward 8.
http://www.ew.com/article/2014/03/11/game-of-thrones-7-seasons
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 13, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
What I am most interested in this season is the indications of how close they are to wrapping up the story.  If HBO types are smart, they are looking at this season and one more.

Why would that be smart? The series makes money.

Because HBO has "lost money" on almost every season seven and beyond that they have done, even when they "made money" in earlier seasons.  Quotes because these series don't generally make money directly except via DVD sales.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 13, 2015, 12:39:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
If HBO types are smart, they are looking at this season and one more.
Two more, actually.  The plan is to end it by the 7th season.  The writers want 7 seasons, HBO leans toward 8.
http://www.ew.com/article/2014/03/11/game-of-thrones-7-seasons

I don't think that there is a plan.  There are some different hopes by different parties.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 13, 2015, 12:10:13 PM
i think grumbler was right that D&D have a better grasp on the story than GRRM at this point. i've only seen the first two episodes of this season, but the simplified/consolidated/killed/ storylines seem to work much better.

episode two kinda-spoiler!
[spoiler]i half wished they had changed arya's storyline so she didn't join the faceless.[/spoiler]

I think that this development might be essential to the final resolution of the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 13, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
Fuck it. Lets do 20 seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 13, 2015, 01:17:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on April 13, 2015, 12:10:13 PM
i think grumbler was right that D&D have a better grasp on the story than GRRM at this point. i've only seen the first two episodes of this season, but the simplified/consolidated/killed/ storylines seem to work much better.

episode two kinda-spoiler!
[spoiler]i half wished they had changed arya's storyline so she didn't join the faceless.[/spoiler]

I think that this development might be essential to the final resolution of the story.


I agree.  I think it is one of the core lines that will converge when the story comes to an end.  I also think it is one of most interesting story lines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 13, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
Fuck it. Lets do 20 seasons.

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 13, 2015, 01:21:13 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 13, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
What I am most interested in this season is the indications of how close they are to wrapping up the story.  If HBO types are smart, they are looking at this season and one more.

Why would that be smart? The series makes money.

Because HBO has "lost money" on almost every season seven and beyond that they have done, even when they "made money" in earlier seasons.  Quotes because these series don't generally make money directly except via DVD sales.

I "see".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 13, 2015, 01:21:57 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 13, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 13, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
Fuck it. Lets do 20 seasons.

:thumbsup:

It worked for Law and Order.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 13, 2015, 01:24:55 PM
And Gunsmoke. And the Simpsons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 02:32:40 PM
Twenty seasons of GoT would be dreadful.  Six is the sweet spot for HBO (seven appears to be the producers' plan; they know better than me what's likely to work), so 20 would be far in excess of what has worked. 

I'd rather have 6-7 seasons of GoT, 6-7 seasons of, say, Honor Harrington, and 6-7 seasons of, say, Lensman or Tales of Known Space than 20 seasons of GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 13, 2015, 04:24:59 PM
Watched the first two episodes. Well made again. Looking forward to the rest of the season.

PS: Dany must be the most annoying character on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 04:27:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 13, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 13, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
Funny how they're ahead of the books in one or two story lines and far behind in others.

[spoiler]I wonder if Sam Tarwell and co. are gonna take that boat ride to the Free Cities.[/spoiler]

The books became incoherent in terms of chronology because of Martin's notion of writing two books which overlapped eachother.    The TV writers have to splice the story lines back together.  Judging from the first episode they are going to do a good job.     

I guess too they won't do [spoiler]Sam's trip to Free Cities[/spoiler] because it seems like we're going to see [spoiler]Tyrion's boat trip[/spoiler] and I guess they can't have two of those in one season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2015, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 13, 2015, 04:24:59 PM
PS: Dany must be the most annoying character on the show.

Of the ones who are not intended to be annoying I assume.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 13, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 13, 2015, 04:24:59 PM
PS: Dany must be the most annoying character on the show.
She's definitely my least favorite pov character in the books, as of the last one.  Her fall was incredibly swift after Daharis arrived on the scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2015, 06:41:45 AM
Yeah.  To tell the truth, the Dani scenes from the book have already just kind of blurred together in my mind.  Lots more words than the actual action required.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 14, 2015, 11:02:24 AM
The back and forth in Meereen seems rather inconsequential for the overall story arc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2015, 11:04:48 AM
The overall Dany story is so fucking awesome, from about 10,000 feet.

Down where you are actually reading, you can't help but feel that it could have been told in about 1/3rd the time. Maybe less. It just goes on and on and on and on.

Does she have to fix the ENTIRE WORLD OUTSIDE Westeros before going back? If not, what the fuck is she waiting for now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:08:22 AM
To prove to herself she is a ruler. That is going great so far.

This is one plot that desperately needed that five year gap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 14, 2015, 11:11:16 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 14, 2015, 11:04:48 AM
The overall Dany story is so fucking awesome, from about 10,000 feet.

Down where you are actually reading, you can't help but feel that it could have been told in about 1/3rd the time. Maybe less. It just goes on and on and on and on.

Does she have to fix the ENTIRE WORLD OUTSIDE Westeros before going back? If not, what the fuck is she waiting for now?

Agreed, it was my main disappointment with books 4 and 5.  Her story line got lost in a jumble of detail.  Yes, governing involves hard choices.  We got it after the first 100 pages.  Can we get on with the story now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 14, 2015, 11:11:18 AM
Yeah, Dani's storyline has some great iconic moment (like "Dracarys"; the "baby confused for a goat"; the "why the Unsullied go to brothels") but a lot of it seems like a filler. In the book especially all I can remember now is how she got shits.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 14, 2015, 11:26:35 AM
From where things are headed, fortunately, book six won't have nearly the same level of boredom where Dany's stuff is concerned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:29:43 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 14, 2015, 11:26:35 AM
From where things are headed, fortunately, book six won't have nearly the same level of boredom where Dany's stuff is concerned.

Well it sure ended in a tricky place.

I have just reflected on the fact I have been a fan of this series for almost ten years and only one book has been released in that time :lol: :weep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 14, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
It's been 4 years since book 5 was released? I can't remember much from it and certainly not from Dany's storyline, so what tricky place? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 14, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
It's been 4 years since book 5 was released? I can't remember much from it and certainly not from Dany's storyline, so what tricky place? :P

Where she gets found by the Dothraki.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 14, 2015, 11:39:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 14, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
It's been 4 years since book 5 was released? I can't remember much from it and certainly not from Dany's storyline, so what tricky place? :P

Where she gets found by the Dothraki.

Alright I'll just read it again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:41:36 AM
Might want to wait until the next book is about to come out. You might forget it all again by then  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 14, 2015, 11:42:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:41:36 AM
Might want to wait until the next book is about to come out. You might forget it all again by then  :P

By then the HBO show will be over. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 14, 2015, 11:42:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:41:36 AM
Might want to wait until the next book is about to come out. You might forget it all again by then  :P

By then the HBO show will be over. :(

Supposedly he is all determined to get the book out before the show starts next year since that will have book 6 material. That makes me feel confident we will see it before 2020.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
The worst part of Daenerys' plot in the books is how she suddenly turned from being an ambitious and wise beyond her years leader into a drooling idiot teenager who keeps lusting about a guy with a golden tooth and a dyed beard and who seems absolutely impervous to all the shit going down around her. It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.

The couple of Barristan episodes in the 5th book move the plot forward more than the entire Dany storyline in Mereen thus far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 14, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
My gf, having only watched ep 1 of season 5 no other, ask when Dano reminds Dany she's the mother of dragon :

Her - so that girl had 3 children? she looks 15.
me - no, they are actual giant dragons.
Her - ah, that makes more sense.

GoT a world where dragons make more sense then multiple teen pregnancies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 14, 2015, 11:54:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
The worst part of Daenerys' plot in the books is how she suddenly turned from being an ambitious and wise beyond her years leader into a drooling idiot teenager who keeps lusting about a guy with a golden tooth and a dyed beard and who seems absolutely impervous to all the shit going down around her. It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.

The couple of Barristan episodes in the 5th book move the plot forward more than the entire Dany storyline in Mereen thus far.
I dunno.
I think she keeps the idealism and all that...its just she realises after the first city she conquers goes to hell that she really has to put some serious work into ruling. Which she isn't great at,
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 11:56:24 AM
Yeah I thought it was just showing how ruling is really hard and less that Dany is stupid. And yes the series continues to be incapable of coming up with sex that doesn't creep me out, in reference to Dany's tension relief.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:59:32 AM
Come on guys, her internal dialogue in the 5th book is all "Should I marry this guy? Or this other guy? But the one I like is Daario...oh his golden tooth... *drools*" while Barristan goes crazy trying to prod her into action of any kind. It's Mereen 90210.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
I think that it is fine that martin decided to have Dani "prove her chops" in slaver's bay before heading back to Westeros.  It makes it more credible that some of the nobles there will join her.  Martin goes into way more Dani than necessary for that plot development, though.  To be fair, he needed to turn 1/3 of a book into a massive tome for ego reasons, so naturally it is going to drag.

That's why the TV series is superior, IMO; they can't get as self-indulgent as martin gets in the books, and now they are moving away from his story and into one that can be resolved in a human lifespan.

I'm definitely noting some aging among the actors this season.

I really miss Bron bot if we continue to get so much Varys i don't think I'll miss him for long.  Some great dialogue between Varys and Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 14, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
Bron appears in this season, grumbler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

She was 13 or so in book 1, and she ended up being completely smitten by Khal Drogo, yet she was very grounded and determined in books 2 and 3, only to turn all mushy in book 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

She was 13 or so in book 1, and she ended up being completely smitten by Khal Drogo, yet she was very grounded and determined in books 2 and 3, only to turn all mushy in book 5.
again, normal behavior for 13-14 years old girl.  I don't know how long it's been since Khal Drogo, so I don't know if one year or two have passed sinced book 1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 02:00:50 PM
Very roughly speaking it's one year per book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 02:03:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 02:00:50 PM
Very roughly speaking it's one year per book.

That is what I have been going with. Except I figure books 4 and 5 cover about 1.5 years, whatever years may mean in that world with those weird seasonal patterns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 14, 2015, 02:14:20 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

She was 13 or so in book 1, and she ended up being completely smitten by Khal Drogo, yet she was very grounded and determined in books 2 and 3, only to turn all mushy in book 5.
again, normal behavior for 13-14 years old girl.  I don't know how long it's been since Khal Drogo, so I don't know if one year or two have passed sinced book 1.

A normal teenage girl, or at least a normal teenage girl who's hathched three dragons and freed slaves from several cities and become a queen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 14, 2015, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 14, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
Bron appears in this season, grumbler.

Great news!  He is always good for two or three memorable quips an episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 14, 2015, 03:29:49 PM
Gay of Thrones is back:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3eef3ab2a5/gay-of-thrones-recaps-s5-ep1

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 14, 2015, 02:14:20 PM
A normal teenage girl, or at least a normal teenage girl who's hathched three dragons and freed slaves from several cities and become a queen.
just because she did some great things does not mean she is emotionless and adult-like in her maturity to deal with her feelings.
Up until she reached that city and established her power base, she was in a very dire situation all along, fighting for her very survival.  Now, she has time to relax, settle in a bit and emotions start to surface.

Yes, it's boring, but it's not out of character considering she's so young.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 14, 2015, 05:50:23 PM
It is a book written by an author, so it is hardly *necessary* that she act in such a manner, so the fact that she DOES act in such a manner is not defensible from a story standpoint on the basis of it being relatively plausible, had she been an actual person, to act in such a manner.

The goal of a good story is not to just be plausible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 15, 2015, 07:21:41 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2015, 02:32:40 PM
Twenty seasons of GoT would be dreadful.  Six is the sweet spot for HBO (seven appears to be the producers' plan; they know better than me what's likely to work), so 20 would be far in excess of what has worked. 

I'd rather have 6-7 seasons of GoT, 6-7 seasons of, say, Honor Harrington, and 6-7 seasons of, say, Lensman or Tales of Known Space than 20 seasons of GoT.

I would prefer 10 seasons of GoT, then 10 seasons of GoT: Dunk and Egg, then 10 seasons of GoT: The heroic age, then GoT: House of the Dragon.
Then we could have a full lenght film: "Robert's Rebellion".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 15, 2015, 07:45:05 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

Who's 27?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 15, 2015, 07:45:55 AM
Miley Cyrus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 15, 2015, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2015, 07:45:05 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

Who's 27?


The actress is 28.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 15, 2015, 09:58:37 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2015, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 14, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
Bron appears in this season, grumbler.

Great news!  He is always good for two or three memorable quips an episode.
The actor is also in Ripper Street.  He's quite good in that if you're looking for a new show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 15, 2015, 11:04:56 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2015, 07:45:55 AM
Miley Cyrus.

Really?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 15, 2015, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 15, 2015, 11:04:56 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2015, 07:45:55 AM
Miley Cyrus.

Really?

No
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on April 20, 2015, 09:14:56 AM
Daenerys keeps getting hotter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:17:08 AM
I have a feeling she is getting fucked very soon (haven't read the last book, by the way).

Also, no raven.  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 20, 2015, 09:21:10 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 15, 2015, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2015, 07:45:05 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

Who's 27?


The actress is 28.

No fuckin way.
I have a very accute perception of female ages, and she is 20, or 21 at worst.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 09:21:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:17:08 AM
I have a feeling she is getting fucked very soon

But the guy she fucks got cut from the show :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:27:03 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 09:21:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:17:08 AM
I have a feeling she is getting fucked very soon

But the guy she fucks got cut from the show :(

Who?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 20, 2015, 09:28:16 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 20, 2015, 09:21:10 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 15, 2015, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2015, 07:45:05 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

Who's 27?


The actress is 28.

No fuckin way.
I have a very accute perception of female ages, and she is 20, or 21 at worst.

You would be wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 09:34:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:27:03 AM
Who?

Daario Naharis but looking at it I was wrong he is in the show. So I guess you are right.

Not sure why I thought he was not present.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 20, 2015, 09:52:55 AM
They changed actor on you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:53:52 AM
He was recast, but that was already in season 4, so maybe you just remembered that.

By the way when I say she is going to get fucked, I meant figuratively, as she is already getting fucked literarily. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 09:59:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 09:53:52 AM
By the way when I say she is going to get fucked, I meant figuratively, as she is already getting fucked literarily. ;)

I may have intentionally chose to misinterpret you there :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 20, 2015, 10:07:01 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 20, 2015, 09:21:10 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 15, 2015, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2015, 07:45:05 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 14, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
It's as if she lost 50 IQ points between books 3 and 5.
normal behavior for teenage girl falling in love.  She's 13-14 in the books, not 27.

Who's 27?


The actress is 28.

No fuckin way.
I have a very accute perception of female ages, and she is 20, or 21 at worst.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3592338/?ref_=nv_sr_1
2015-1986=29.  Actually, she's 28 until October.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 10:17:42 AM
By the way, in terms of succession, who takes over Casterly Rock after Tywin croaked? Presumably Tyrion is disinherited and with Jaime out of the succession, does it go to Cersei (or Tommen) or to Kevan? Presumably if it goes to Kevan, then after his death it will go to Lancel. Which just goes to show this family is fucked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 10:24:02 AM
It goes to Cersei in Feast for Crows.

Tyrion is taking aggressive action to rectify the situation in Dance with Dragons. [spoiler]Kevan is killed by Varys.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 20, 2015, 11:25:25 AM
Quote from: Liep on April 20, 2015, 09:14:56 AM
Daenerys keeps getting hotter.

though apparently she won't go nekkid this year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 20, 2015, 01:44:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 09:34:03 AM
Daario Naharis but looking at it I was wrong he is in the show. So I guess you are right.

Not sure why I thought he was not present.
As mentioned, there was the recasting issue.  Add in that neither of the actors even vaguely resembled the character from the books, and you can easily be forgiven for forgetting.  Daario is still more settled than The Mountain, who seemed to change actors every appearance. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 20, 2015, 01:50:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
So, since we are in the no book territory for Littlefinger and Sansa, any speculations where they are going?
It's shown in episode 3. It's definitely a fitting Littlefinger scheme.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 02:05:03 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 20, 2015, 01:50:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
So, since we are in the no book territory for Littlefinger and Sansa, any speculations where they are going?
It's shown in episode 3. It's definitely a fitting Littlefinger scheme.

Now katmai will ban you. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2015, 02:05:42 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 20, 2015, 01:44:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 20, 2015, 09:34:03 AM
Daario Naharis but looking at it I was wrong he is in the show. So I guess you are right.

Not sure why I thought he was not present.
As mentioned, there was the recasting issue.  Add in that neither of the actors even vaguely resembled the character from the books, and you can easily be forgiven for forgetting.  Daario is still more settled than The Mountain, who seemed to change actors every appearance. :lol:

I like the new Daario. He has nice ass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 20, 2015, 08:18:40 PM
Bron and Jamie!  Now that's a combination that should be interesting.  Bron could out-sardonic Tyrion, but he's got tougher competition now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 01:47:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2015, 02:03:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 14, 2015, 02:00:50 PM
Very roughly speaking it's one year per book.

That is what I have been going with. Except I figure books 4 and 5 cover about 1.5 years, whatever years may mean in that world with those weird seasonal patterns.
Probably the same as it does in ours, X number of days to circle the sun in one orbit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 01:54:43 AM
Ok have been reading some disturbing rumours about the story later this season. [spoiler]Sophie Turner (Sansa), Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) and Alfie Alen (Theon)[/spoiler] have been teasing a [spoiler]very disturbing "Red Wedding level" scene later this season[/spoiler]. I just hope [spoiler]Sansa[/spoiler] does not become [spoiler]a stand-in for another minor character[/spoiler].  :yucky:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:27:10 AM
You are an asshole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:28:18 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:27:10 AM
You are an asshole.

What?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:31:50 AM
This is a thread to talk about the show that has been on, not to fucking spoil what is coming by relating what you found out is going to happen, or rumors or whatever.

I don't want to know about what is coming - this if the first fucking season where I *don't* know what is coming, even vaguely. Thanks a lot for ruining that.

I DO know that the show has been leaked, but have been very careful not to go finding out what is happening, or might be happening. Except you decided you would share it with us anyway, thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:34:18 AM
It is not about the shows being leaked, but interviews with actors which are posted on all fan sites, and resulting speculation. And I put all the names / details in spoiler tags.

So fuck off, you fucking asshole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2015, 02:34:50 AM
He used spoiler tags(and having read them I still have no idea what he's talking about).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:37:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:34:18 AM
It is not about the shows being leaked, but interviews with actors which are posted on all fan sites, and resulting speculation. And I put all the names / details in spoiler tags.

So fuck off, you fucking asshole.

Right, it was so fine that you posted that that you went and decided to put spoiler tags on the stuff that I called you an asshole for - proving that you are in fact an asshole even in your own mind.

WTF, can you have just a little respect for other people? Just a smidgen? Even a token amount?

If I wanted to go read fansites with people's speculation about what they heard through the grapevine about what is coming IN NON YET RELEASED EPISODES why, I would go to those sites, now wouldn't I? I wouldn't come here were we agreed that we would NOT relay information about what is going to happen until it actually happens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2015, 02:34:50 AM
He used spoiler tags(and having read them I still have no idea what he's talking about).

He did not use spoiler tags, at least not until after I bitched, for all of his oh so awesomeness secret information he heard from his buddies and decided he needed to tell everyone about.

And you knowing or not knowing what he is talking about isn't the point. Telling people what is coming, even in broad strokes, is fucking rude when we EXPLICITLY said we would not do that. Haha, joke is on me I guess. Good one Marty!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:42:35 AM
The spoilers were originally put on all the names I used. I then went and added further spoiler tags (which in my view were unnecessary).

And besides, when the fuck did we agree not to talk about stuff that did not yet happen in the show. On the previous page Valmy said that [spoiler]Kevan is killed by Varys[/spoiler] (or that in the book Tyrion aggressively is pressing his claim to Casterly Rock - something which he didn't even put spoiler tags on and which did not yet happen on the show for sure) yet I don't see you going fucking ballistic about it.

I don't know if things are going wrong in your personal life again, but please don't take it out on people over something you read in a thread about a fantasy tv show. Grow the fuck up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:47:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2015, 02:34:50 AM
He used spoiler tags(and having read them I still have no idea what he's talking about).

He did not use spoiler tags

You are a fucking liar. There were spoiler tags on all names used - the only parts that were not covered with spoiler tags were the second and the fourth part in my post (which, imo, do not really reveal that much but I covered them after your insane reaction).

As I said, grow the fuck up and fix your life and possibly seek a therapy if you react like this to an information that some unspecified big thing is going to happen on a tv show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:47:28 AM
Kevan being killed happened in the book, and hence anyone reading the book knows about it - it is public knowledge, and we've discussed what has happened in the books all along.

Spoiling what is happening in the show, and is NOT part of the books is being a dick.

Trying to then make yourself too cool for school by pretending like you know anything at all about my personal life, makes you a douchebag on top of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 02:48:41 AM
Even without tags, what Marty wrote is completely meaningless.  Maybe you should just relax?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:50:23 AM
I didn't read the last book and I think revealing that Kevan is killed to show watchers (many of whom did not read the books) is a much bigger spoiler than saying that actors on the show said in interviews that there is a disturbing scene coming later in the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:50:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:47:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2015, 02:34:50 AM
He used spoiler tags(and having read them I still have no idea what he's talking about).

He did not use spoiler tags

You are a fucking liar. There were spoiler tags on all names used - the only parts that were not covered with spoiler tags were the second and the fourth part in my post (which, imo, do not really reveal that much but I covered them after your insane reaction).

As I said, grow the fuck up and fix your life and possibly seek a therapy if you react like this to something about a tv show.

Nice cropping of my comment, liar. The fact that you just edited my quote and intentionally removed the rest of it is very typical of your level of honesty.


You did NOT use spoiler tags on all the spoiler information, and the fact that you added them after I called you on it proves that even you know it was a dick move, or else you wouldn't have bothered to then tag it.

It's not like it is NOT a spoiler if you say to someone "Hey this guy named [spoiler]Ned Stark[/spoiler] is going to get executed later this season!"

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:52:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:50:23 AM
I didn't read the last book and I think revealing that Kevan is killed to show watchers (many of whom did not read the books) is a much bigger spoiler than saying that actors on the show said in interviews that there is a disturbing scene coming later in the season.

This thread, however, has consistently discussed the happening in the books as they relate to the show, so anyone reading it knows that is expected.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2015, 02:53:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:50:23 AM
I didn't read the last book and I think revealing that Kevan is killed to show watchers (many of whom did not read the books) is a much bigger spoiler than saying that actors on the show said in interviews that there is a disturbing scene coming later in the season.

Nobody gives a shit about Kevan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:54:12 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 02:48:41 AM
Even without tags, what Marty wrote is completely meaningless.  Maybe you should just relax?

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:56:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:50:55 AM
It's not like it is NOT a spoiler if you say to someone "Hey this guy named [spoiler]Ned Stark[/spoiler] is going to get executed later this season!"

It isn't - because people get executed in droves on this show, just as they take part in horrible events. It is almost de rigeur.

It would be a spoiler if someone said "Hey this guy [spoiler]Tyrion Lannister[/spoiler] is going to get kidnapped by aliens later this season" because the information about aliens would certainly be spoilerish and was not tagged. Getting executed is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:56:19 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 02:48:41 AM
Even without tags, what Marty wrote is completely meaningless.  Maybe you should just relax?

Stating that there was a major scene, similar to the biggest scene in the entire series, coming up later in the season might be meaningless to you, but it isn't to me. It means plenty.

Hopefully he is wrong, but if not, when that scene comes along, it won't be nearly as enjoyable now since it won't be any kind of surprise.

I actually ENVY people who watched the show and didn't know the Red Wedding was coming. If there is something similar to that level, I want it to come as a complete surprise. Now, it won't be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:58:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:47:28 AM
Trying to then make yourself too cool for school by pretending like you know anything at all about my personal life, makes you a douchebag on top of it.

I don't know anything about your personal life and I am not pretending I do. It just boggles my mind that a grown up man with kids would react so insanely to a perceived spoiler about a tv show (even if it was a spoiler - which it wasn't) so I gotta assume there is something going on and either you are simply in need of a mental help or you must be really stressed in your life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:59:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:56:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:50:55 AM
It's not like it is NOT a spoiler if you say to someone "Hey this guy named [spoiler]Ned Stark[/spoiler] is going to get executed later this season!"

It isn't - because people get executed in droves on this show, just as they take part in horrible events. It is almost de rigeur.

It is now, it wasn't around episode five or so in season 1. That would be a dick move to tell someone, because it would lessen the impact of a great scene. When Ned is sitting there on the steps, what is going to be going through their head isn't "Wow, sure is good they made that deal..." what will be going through their head is "Oh, I know how this is going to end, because my good buddy Marty spoiled it for me! Of COURSE HE DIDN'T SAY HIS NAME SO IT DOESN'T COUNT!"

Just like you just did. Well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 03:00:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:56:19 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 02:48:41 AM
Even without tags, what Marty wrote is completely meaningless.  Maybe you should just relax?

Stating that there was a major scene, similar to the biggest scene in the entire series, coming up later in the season might be meaningless to you, but it isn't to me. It means plenty.

Hopefully he is wrong, but if not, when that scene comes along, it won't be nearly as enjoyable now since it won't be any kind of surprise.

I actually ENVY people who watched the show and didn't know the Red Wedding was coming. If there is something similar to that level, I want it to come as a complete surprise. Now, it won't be.

I didn't say the scene was "similar to Red Wedding" but "Red Wedding level disturbing".

It's like you said that something is comparable to 911 in its impact - that does not mean there is a fucking plane crashing into a fucking building.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 03:01:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:58:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:47:28 AM
Trying to then make yourself too cool for school by pretending like you know anything at all about my personal life, makes you a douchebag on top of it.

I don't know anything about your personal life and I am not pretending I do. It just boggles my mind that a grown up man with kids would react so insanely to a perceived spoiler about a tv show (even if it was a spoiler - which it wasn't) so I gotta assume there is something going on and either you are simply in need of a mental help or you must be really stressed in your life.

It boggles my mind that a grown man would respond to someone making a very narrow bitch at them about a very particular topic in a specif context by immediately trying to question their personal life.

Oh wait, it doesn't boggle my mind with you, because you've done that so many times on Languish it isn't funny. You are just that kind of douchebag.

Maybe I am over-reacting to you deciding it would be fun to spoiler a show I like. Shrug.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 03:03:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 03:00:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:56:19 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 02:48:41 AM
Even without tags, what Marty wrote is completely meaningless.  Maybe you should just relax?

Stating that there was a major scene, similar to the biggest scene in the entire series, coming up later in the season might be meaningless to you, but it isn't to me. It means plenty.

Hopefully he is wrong, but if not, when that scene comes along, it won't be nearly as enjoyable now since it won't be any kind of surprise.

I actually ENVY people who watched the show and didn't know the Red Wedding was coming. If there is something similar to that level, I want it to come as a complete surprise. Now, it won't be.

I didn't say the scene was "similar to Red Wedding" but "Red Wedding level disturbing".

Yeah, that is called a spoiler. Asshole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 03:04:59 AM
Get a life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 03:07:41 AM
I really can't see how something that vague can be called a spoiler.

Something very important and disturbing happens at the end of every season of Game of Thrones, that ain't a damn spoiler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on April 21, 2015, 03:08:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:56:00 AMde rigeur

If you want to act pretentious, at least make sure you spell words correctly; otherwise you come across as a hick with airs of grandeur.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 03:12:31 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 21, 2015, 03:07:41 AM
I really can't see how something that vague can be called a spoiler.

Something very important and disturbing happens at the end of every season of Game of Thrones, that ain't a damn spoiler.

There have been exactly one scene like the Red Wedding, and that was the Red Wedding. Since it has happened exactly once, saying it happens "every season" is clearly complete bullshit.

And even Marty agrees it is a spoiler  - you can tell because he put a spoiler tag on it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 06:13:23 AM
Berk, why are you arguing with Martinus from 3 to 5 am?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 06:15:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:58:40 AM
I don't know anything about your personal life and I am not pretending I do. It just boggles my mind that a grown up man with kids would react so insanely to a perceived spoiler about a tv show (even if it was a spoiler - which it wasn't) so I gotta assume there is something going on and either you are simply in need of a mental help or you must be really stressed in your life.

Do you really think that the ad homs make your position stronger?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 21, 2015, 07:02:29 AM
Berk, you are really being way too bitchy here. While arguing with Martinus. That's quite an achievement.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 07:31:30 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 21, 2015, 07:02:29 AM
Berk, you are really being way too bitchy here. While arguing with Martinus. That's quite an achievement.

Yeah, Berkut is probably over-reacting.  But his position in general is one worth defending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 08:33:40 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 21, 2015, 07:02:29 AM
Berk, you are really being way too bitchy here. While arguing with Martinus. That's quite an achievement.


Quite likely true - but at least it got Marty to acknowledge that spoiling the show is something that should be avoided.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 08:46:33 AM
Speculations are not spoilers, no amount of argument vitriol will make that a reality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:14:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 08:46:33 AM
Speculations are not spoilers, no amount of argument vitriol will make that a reality.

Nobody says speculation is a spoiler - saying that you heard from someone that there is a scene with some particular characteristics is not speculation. It is saying you heard that something is going to happen...throwing a "maybe" in or not mentioning the specific names is not speculation. In fact, the way he did it, where someone reading can see that there are in fact more details behind a spoiler tag, makes it even more obvious that this is something specific, and not just idle speculation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 09:25:32 AM
No, it's speculation.

Unless it's from an aired(or leaked) show and in the case of GoT, a book. It's all speculation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:33:33 AM
Yeah, the news comes from an official interview with a cast member. It's no different than, say, GRRM giving an interview and saying that "in the sixth book there will be this big event involving X" - repeating that is not a spoiler and speculating about the nature of the big event is not a spoiler either.

Spoiler is saying something that you know will happen because you have information others do not have.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 21, 2015, 09:40:59 AM
Martinus is insane.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:43:11 AM
Anyway, going back to the topic of the thread - let's discuss last episode.

Do you guys think [spoiler]Sansa turning down Brienne's offer of aid[/spoiler] was sincere or was it a game on her part [spoiler]and she knew Brienne will follow her anyway[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:44:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:33:33 AM
Yeah, the news comes from an official interview with a cast member. It's no different than, say, GRRM giving an interview and saying that "in the sixth book there will be this big event involving X" - repeating that is not a spoiler and speculating about the nature of the big event is not a spoiler either.

Spoiler is saying something that you know will happen because you have information others do not have.

That is exactly what you said - that you had read rumors about what was going to happen later in the season. and it would involve something like the red wedding scene. You did not say they were speculation, you did not say what the source was, you did not say any of that.

That is in fact saying you know something will happen based on information others do not have.

Like I already said, maybe you are wrong, and no such scene will happen. If it does though, you will have partially spoiled that surprise. That is the exact definition of the term "spoiler". There is a reason the word is based on the word "spoil".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:44:23 AM
you did not say what the source was

What part of "[spoiler]Sophie Turner (Sansa), Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) and Alfie Alen (Theon)[/spoiler] have been teasing that" did you not understand? How is that not stating the source - I expressly refer to actors on the show who are the source of these rumours. And yes, because the actors under the spoiler tag are very specific actors I did think that knowing they are the ones saying it may have a spoilerish quality (as it can be at least reasonably assumed it involves them somehow) so I have kept their names under a spoiler tag from the very beginning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 09:48:01 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 09:25:32 AM
No, it's speculation.

Unless it's from an aired(or leaked) show and in the case of GoT, a book. It's all speculation.

This is mere argument by assertion.  An actor saying that there will be scene X isn't speculation, it is spoiler.  The scenes have been filmed; it's not like the actor can only speculate on what they did in the past. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:52:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 09:48:01 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 09:25:32 AM
No, it's speculation.

Unless it's from an aired(or leaked) show and in the case of GoT, a book. It's all speculation.

This is mere argument by assertion.  An actor saying that there will be scene X isn't speculation, it is spoiler.  The scenes have been filmed; it's not like the actor can only speculate on what they did in the past.

Are we not allowed to discuss things that actors say? What about titles of the episodes - these are also officially released in advance. So if I know that the next episode is titled "High Sparrow", I am not allowed to speculate on what the episode will show?

There is a difference between discussing an actual unique/exclusive/unofficial knowledge the poster has (e.g. let's say I saw the leaked episodes and there was something in them I started to discuss - that would be a true spoiler) and a speculation based on something someone else - officially associated with the show and clearly as a part of the show's marketing strategy - says.

If, for example, HBO announces that the next season is filmed in Spain, you can speculate that some parts of the season will take place in Dorne - and that is NOT a spoiler (even though it is based on an information that comes from outside of any episode seen so far).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:44:23 AM
you did not say what the source was

What part of "[spoiler]Sophie Turner (Sansa), Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) and Alfie Alen (Theon)[/spoiler] have been teasing that" did you not understand?

The part where I don't want it be even more spoiled than it already was so certainly was not going to go looking under your spoiler tag to see? Duh.

And the actors spoiling something is still a spoiler.

Quote
How is that not stating the source - I expressly refer to actors on the show who are the source of these rumours.

Except you don't, because you hide the source under the spoiler. Which is pretty amusing - since YOU claim that the actual content they are spoiling is NOT a spoiler (or did) but that WHO is spoiling it IS a spoiler! That is pretty amazingly stupid, even for you.

WHAT they say IS NOT a spoiler, but WHO says it IS a spolier? That is laughable it is so stupid.

Quote

And yes, because the actors under the spoiler tag are very specific actors I did think that knowing they are the ones saying it may have a spoilerish quality (as it can be at least reasonably assumed it involves them somehow) so I have kept their names under a spoiler tag from the very beginning.

Yeah, that was brilliant - you will put who created the spoiler under a spoiler, but not what they spoiled - because as long as you don't say the name of the character it happens to, why, it can't possibly be a spoiler!

Of course, you have since conceded that in fact it is all spoiler - if your post looked originally the way you edited it now, this never would have even elicited a comment.

Now we get to watch you simultaneously concede that you were completely wrong (by editing the post to conform to reasonable expectations) and go into a rage that really, you weren't wrong at all, and Berkut is lashing out because of his personal problems. It really is rather typical of you, sad to say.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:56:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2015, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 14, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
Bron appears in this season, grumbler.

Great news!  He is always good for two or three memorable quips an episode.

How's that not a spoiler deserving your ire, by the way? And my speculation was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
Berkut, sorry, I don't respond to posts with multiple quotes line by line - my life is too short to engage with people who do that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:58:41 AM
Yeah, you edit their posts so they are saying something they didn't say at all, and respond to that instead. Your life is apparently plenty long for that kind of dishonesty, at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
WHAT they say IS NOT a spoiler, but WHO says it IS a spolier? That is laughable it is so stupid.

If an actor said "my character dies this season" then it is clearly an information that becomes a spoiler depending on which actor said it. Same with "there is that scene in the season that is so horrible, I felt nauseated just shooting it".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:56:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2015, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 14, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
Bron appears in this season, grumbler.

Great news!  He is always good for two or three memorable quips an episode.

How's that not a spoiler deserving your ire, by the way? And my speculation was.

What ire?  Are you drunk again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 10:02:57 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 10:04:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
WHAT they say IS NOT a spoiler, but WHO says it IS a spolier? That is laughable it is so stupid.

If an actor said "my character dies this season" then it is clearly an information that becomes a spoiler depending on which actor said it.

And saying that a character is going to die this season is a spoiler even if you don't say which one. "A major characer dies this season" is a spoiler, whether you mention which one or not.

Saying there will be a scene like the red wedding is a spoiler whether you mention which characters will be involved or not.

It is telling us something we didn't know. It is spoiling the surprise. These are very simple words.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 10:09:07 AM
As it has been said repeatedly by myself and others, in a show like GoT, expecting nasty shit to hit the fan or a major character to die over the course of a season is not a spoiler, because this is what people expect from this show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 10:23:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 10:09:07 AM
As it has been said repeatedly by myself and others, in a show like GoT, expecting nasty shit to hit the fan or a major character to die over the course of a season is not a spoiler, because this is what people expect from this show.

The example specific to this show (a scene akin to the red wedding) does not happen every season, hence the relevance of the comment. If it was so common place, it would not even merit a mention - the fact that it is worth bringing up proves that it is a spoiler in the very definition of the word.



Why would this be disturbing, as you said, if it was just more of the same stuff that happens all the time?


You can't have it both ways - it can't be interesting enough to warrant comment and at the same time be so uninteresting that it can't possibly be considered a spoiler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 21, 2015, 10:24:32 AM
Has this charming tete a tete really been going on since 3 in the morning?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 10:27:42 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 21, 2015, 10:24:32 AM
Has this charming tete a tete really been going on since 3 in the morning?

It had a 3 hour break, I guess Marti went to dinner but has since started back up.

I helped.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Malthus on April 21, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
Reposting this here just because:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/16/game-of-thrones-iron-throne-toilet-video_n_7078566.html?utm_hp_ref=weird-news

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 21, 2015, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 10:27:42 AM
I helped.  :hmm:

You are a public-minded citizen. :cheers:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:43:11 AM
Do you guys think [spoiler]Sansa turning down Brienne's offer of aid[/spoiler] was sincere or was it a game on her part [spoiler]and she knew Brienne will follow her anyway[/spoiler].

My view is that Sansa has grown up a lot from the early days when she trustingly went to the Queen with her father's plan to leave the city (something that happened in the book but not in the show).  She now knows how manipulative Little Finger is and she is painfully aware he is the only powerful ally she has left.  She lied to the Lords of the Vale to protect Little Finger and keep her powerful ally in play.  There was no point in upsetting him by accepting Brienne into her service when he made it clear he didn't want Brienne around.


We still don't know whether Sansa is mature enough to know Little Finger didn't want Sansa to have an guardian independent of him who might interfere with his further plans.  If she is that mature then perhaps she knew she could have the best of both worlds - keep Little Finger happy while knowing that Brienne would follow in any event.  We also don't know what Little Finger's plans might be (his long play is really the cornerstone of the story) but it is fun to speculate about it.  Without reference to social media spoilers that is. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:01:13 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:43:11 AM
Do you guys think [spoiler]Sansa turning down Brienne's offer of aid[/spoiler] was sincere or was it a game on her part [spoiler]and she knew Brienne will follow her anyway[/spoiler].

My view is that Sansa has grown up a lot from the early days when she trustingly went to the Queen with her father's plan to leave the city (something that happened in the book but not in the show).  She now knows how manipulative Little Finger is and she is painfully aware he is the only powerful ally she has left.  She lied to the Lords of the Vale to protect Little Finger and keep her powerful ally in play.  There was no point in upsetting him by accepting Brienne into her service when he made it clear he didn't want Brienne around.


We still don't know whether Sansa is mature enough to know Little Finger didn't want Sansa to have an guardian independent of him who might interfere with his further plans.  If she is that mature then perhaps she knew she could have the best of both worlds - keep Little Finger happy while knowing that Brienne would follow in any event.  We also don't know what Little Finger's plans might be (his long play is really the cornerstone of the story) but it is fun to speculate about it.  Without reference to social media spoilers that is. ;)

The Sansa scene was either poorly written, or else Sansa is playing her cards very close to her vest.  She makes no attempt to find out anything about her family from Brienne, who clearly has had more recent contact with Kat than Sansa has, in spite of the fact that it would obviously be uppermost in her mind to do so.  When she dismisses Brienne without so much as a "have you heard anything about my brothers or sisters?" I believe that we are supposed to assume that she doesn't trust Littlefinger enough to ask.  Her lack of curiousity may, in fact, have been worrisome to Littlefinger since it was so obviously a pose (unless the scene was badly written, which I doubt very much).

There are a lot of interesting implications of the meeting between Sansa and Brienne.  I don't, however, think that Sansa is depending on Brienne to follow her, or even giving the possibility any serious consideration.  We expect it, as viewers, because we know Brienne and how stubbornly honorable she is.  Sansa has never met her before.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 11:03:06 AM
I did have to roll my eyes at the Brienne/Arya/Sansa stuff in the show.

Brienne is out searching for them, and pretty much just stumbles into both of them by pure chance? Really?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Also, does he shave because he is balding, or because his hair is too pale for him to go unrecognized as a Targaryen?  Could he background be a matter of fiction?  After all, he was made a member of the small council by Aerius II, not Robert Baratheon.  If he was a Targaryen bastard, he'd have "the blood" to be useful (or maybe just have bits snipped off to be useful) in blood magic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 11:32:57 AM
Spoilers!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 11:03:06 AM
I did have to roll my eyes at the Brienne/Arya/Sansa stuff in the show.

Brienne is out searching for them, and pretty much just stumbles into both of them by pure chance? Really?

I agree that the Arya acceptance into the Temple was poorly written.  The show provided no explanation why one day she was turned away and then the next she was accepted.  In the book it took a lot time for her to be granted admission.

As for the chance meeting of Sansa and Brienne.  Those sorts of chance meetings run throughout the books and have major plot implications.  Think about the chance meeting of Lady Stark and Tyrion at the crossroads inn as an example. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 21, 2015, 11:59:48 AM
Without the chance meetings, Brienne's role would be pretty senseless. If she was just stumbling on and on, never finding the Starks, what would be her point in the story arc?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 21, 2015, 11:59:48 AM
Without the chance meetings, Brienne's role would be pretty senseless. If she was just stumbling on and on, never finding the Starks, what would be her point in the story arc?

Of course, but it seemed kind of like lazy writing - surely they could have come up with some way that her meeting was a result of her actually trying to find her, rather than her wandering about, failing utterly, then Ooops! There she is! What a small Westeros!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 12:06:08 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 21, 2015, 11:32:57 AM
Spoilers!

The Fox who cried Wolf?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:06:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 11:03:06 AM
I did have to roll my eyes at the Brienne/Arya/Sansa stuff in the show.

Brienne is out searching for them, and pretty much just stumbles into both of them by pure chance? Really?

I agree that the Arya acceptance into the Temple was poorly written.  The show provided no explanation why one day she was turned away and then the next she was accepted.  In the book it took a lot time for her to be granted admission.

You could see that they were at least trying to convey that to some extent...it just didn't really work well.

The election of Jon was rather disappointing as well, at least as compared to how it went down in the books. Probably not really realistic though, given the limitations of the medium...but in the books getting Jon elected was this crowning achievement of Samwell, and it was really cool (if a little predictable). The show he was just kind of spur of the moment nominated and elected.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 11:56:29 AM
As for the chance meeting of Sansa and Brienne.  Those sorts of chance meetings run throughout the books and have major plot implications. 

When it happens the first time it is a pretty cool dramatic turn on fate and random chance.

When someone is actually LOOKING FOR SOMEONE and just happens to stumble into them...well, that is a little bit silly. But it is a minor nit.

There were quite a few random encounters in the show though, you are right...

The biggest though has to be Sam just so happening to coming south under the wall on the exact same night that Bran is going north. I still think the idea that Sam would find out that not just one but both of the younger Stark children are alive and agree to keep it a secret, even from Jon, is completely ludicrous.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 12:12:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 21, 2015, 11:59:48 AM
Without the chance meetings, Brienne's role would be pretty senseless. If she was just stumbling on and on, never finding the Starks, what would be her point in the story arc?

Of course, but it seemed kind of like lazy writing - surely they could have come up with some way that her meeting was a result of her actually trying to find her, rather than her wandering about, failing utterly, then Ooops! There she is! What a small Westeros!

Except the show made a point of telling us that Little Finger led everyone astray as to where he is actually going.  If Brienne had been able to track Sansa to the Vale she would now be looking in the wrong place.  A chance meeting was all that was left for a character like Brienne who lacks the kind of guile that would be required to track Little Finger.  Besides they did foreshadow the meeting in the first episode - when Little Finger and Sansa left the Vale they crossed Brienne's path.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 12:13:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:06:44 PM
The election of Jon was rather disappointing as well, at least as compared to how it went down in the books. Probably not really realistic though, given the limitations of the medium...but in the books getting Jon elected was this crowning achievement of Samwell, and it was really cool (if a little predictable). The show he was just kind of spur of the moment nominated and elected.

I agree the election thing was a disappointment after the book.  I'd think that there were a lot of scenes that could have been skipped or shortened to make the time for Tarley to do his Machiavelli imitation; for instance, the whole scene in the library with Samwell, his girlfriend, and Stannis's daughter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
The biggest though has to be Sam just so happening to coming south under the wall on the exact same night that Bran is going north. I still think the idea that Sam would find out that not just one but both of the younger Stark children are alive and agree to keep it a secret, even from Jon, is completely ludicrous.

iirc the Book did a much better job explaining why Sam kept the secret.

I should also add than in the books Sam keeps the secret, in the show he tells Jon iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 21, 2015, 12:26:54 PM
QuoteMy view is that Sansa has grown up a lot from the early days when she trustingly went to the Queen with her father's plan to leave the city (something that happened in the book but not in the show).  She now knows how manipulative Little Finger is and she is painfully aware he is the only powerful ally she has left.  She lied to the Lords of the Vale to protect Little Finger and keep her powerful ally in play.  There was no point in upsetting him by accepting Brienne into her service when he made it clear he didn't want Brienne around.


We still don't know whether Sansa is mature enough to know Little Finger didn't want Sansa to have an guardian independent of him who might interfere with his further plans.  If she is that mature then perhaps she knew she could have the best of both worlds - keep Little Finger happy while knowing that Brienne would follow in any event.  We also don't know what Little Finger's plans might be (his long play is really the cornerstone of the story) but it is fun to speculate about it.  Without reference to social media spoilers that is. ;)
Perhaps in keeping with her being aged up and such a path being better for TV, TV-Sansa seems a lot more mature and politically astute than book Sansa does.

The impression I got from book Littlefinger is that even behind all his political scheming and quest for power it is still all about Cat for him.....something transposed onto Sansa. And a real hole for her to exploit when she is able.,
TV show Littlefinger doesn't seem to show this to quite the same extent.

Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Also, does he shave because he is balding, or because his hair is too pale for him to go unrecognized as a Targaryen?  Could he background be a matter of fiction?  After all, he was made a member of the small council by Aerius II, not Robert Baratheon.  If he was a Targaryen bastard, he'd have "the blood" to be useful (or maybe just have bits snipped off to be useful) in blood magic.

Viserys is young and mouldable/controllable he figured?
His intelligence in the free cities didn't do the best of jobs on reporting about his personality?

I don't for a second believe Varys as a Targ. Tyrion the Targ on the other hand is one I increasingly see something in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:28:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
The biggest though has to be Sam just so happening to coming south under the wall on the exact same night that Bran is going north. I still think the idea that Sam would find out that not just one but both of the younger Stark children are alive and agree to keep it a secret, even from Jon, is completely ludicrous.

iirc the Book did a much better job explaining why Sam kept the secret.

I should also add than in the books Sam keeps the secret, in the show he tells Jon iirc.

Did he really?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 21, 2015, 12:33:09 PM
I can never remember what happened in the books
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 12:49:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:28:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
The biggest though has to be Sam just so happening to coming south under the wall on the exact same night that Bran is going north. I still think the idea that Sam would find out that not just one but both of the younger Stark children are alive and agree to keep it a secret, even from Jon, is completely ludicrous.

iirc the Book did a much better job explaining why Sam kept the secret.

I should also add than in the books Sam keeps the secret, in the show he tells Jon iirc.

Did he really?

In the episode "Oathkeeper".  It was one of the first times the writers of the TV show diverted significantly from the books.  But the writers seem to have forgotten.  For example when Stannis offered to make Jon the Lord of Winterfell, that offer was very attractive in the book because Jon believed there were no other heirs.  But in the show the offer made no sense from Jon's point of view knowing that rightful heirs still lived.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/23057-why-game-of-thrones-jon-bran-reuniting-will-be-a-huge-departure-from-the-books
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 21, 2015, 12:33:09 PM
I can never remember what happened in the books

When the TV show is over and if the book series is finished I plan on going back and reading them again.  Books 4 and 5 might make more sense with hindsight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 21, 2015, 01:24:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Also, does he shave because he is balding, or because his hair is too pale for him to go unrecognized as a Targaryen?  Could he background be a matter of fiction?  After all, he was made a member of the small council by Aerius II, not Robert Baratheon.  If he was a Targaryen bastard, he'd have "the blood" to be useful (or maybe just have bits snipped off to be useful) in blood magic.

It is hard to figure Varys out.  in I am having trouble keeping the TV version straight with the books and particularly what we learned in books 4 and 5 about him.  One thing seems certain.  He is not what he works hard at making people see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 21, 2015, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2015, 02:37:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 02:34:18 AM
It is not about the shows being leaked, but interviews with actors which are posted on all fan sites, and resulting speculation. And I put all the names / details in spoiler tags.

So fuck off, you fucking asshole.

Right, it was so fine that you posted that that you went and decided to put spoiler tags on the stuff that I called you an asshole for - proving that you are in fact an asshole even in your own mind.

WTF, can you have just a little respect for other people? Just a smidgen? Even a token amount?

If I wanted to go read fansites with people's speculation about what they heard through the grapevine about what is coming IN NON YET RELEASED EPISODES why, I would go to those sites, now wouldn't I? I wouldn't come here were we agreed that we would NOT relay information about what is going to happen until it actually happens.

Berkut said smidgen. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 21, 2015, 03:01:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
Berkut, fuck you, I respond to posts with multiple quotes line by line - my life is too long to not engage with people who do that.

Whoa there, Marty.
Easy on the Berk.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 21, 2015, 03:04:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
my life is too short to engage with people who do that.

Life is too short to get into debates on Languish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 21, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2015, 03:04:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
my life is too long to not engage with people who do that.

Life is too long to not get into debates on Languish.

I agree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 03:34:37 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 21, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 21, 2015, 03:04:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
my life is too long to not engage with people who do that.

Life is too long to not get into debates on Languish.

I agree.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 21, 2015, 06:28:30 PM
Martinus you are DEAD wrong here. Thanks for ruining Season 5 for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 21, 2015, 07:27:43 PM
You don't even watch the show pendejo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 21, 2015, 09:37:19 PM
I do so!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2015, 06:33:16 AM
Quote from: Jaron on April 21, 2015, 09:37:19 PM
I do so!

I thought your law school studies kept you too busy.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 22, 2015, 03:11:20 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 21, 2015, 07:27:43 PM
You don't even watch the show pendejo.

Did you just call him pubic hair?

Gross.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2015, 12:39:39 AM
Someone made a "Too Many Cooks" version for Game of Thrones (for those living under a rock, it was a viral video from Adult Swim made last year). If anything, it just shows how many characters this show had (and killed off) over the last 5 years.  :lol:

https://youtu.be/PBxBXX8wU1Q

At several points, it made me go "oh right, there was this guy/plot/scene there I completely forgot about."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2015, 08:42:12 PM
Now that we have seen where Littlefinger and Sanza were going, I'd say we know what Marti's spoilered message was talking about.  It's in the books, though it was subtle enough I didn't really see it the first time I read it.  [spoiler]Frey pie[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 26, 2015, 09:14:11 PM
Wow, I can't believe [spoiler]lolololololololololololololololololololol[/spoiler]

I didn't think it was possible that they would [spoiler]lolololol[/spoiler] my favorite character!

I'm nervous because they interviewed the producers and they said [spoiler]lololololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololollololol[/spoiler]

Me: nervous


Edit: Berkut
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 26, 2015, 09:59:39 PM
Jaron-

[spoiler]lololololsnickerguffaw[/spoiler]  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:11:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2015, 08:42:12 PM
Now that we have seen where Littlefinger and Sanza were going, I'd say we know what Marti's spoilered message was talking about.  It's in the books, though it was subtle enough I didn't really see it the first time I read it.  [spoiler]Frey pie[/spoiler]

Oh. I thought it would be more along the lines of [spoiler]Ramsay torturing Sansa, her standing in for the girl that they made masquerade for Arya (Jayne Poole?)[/spoiler]. I like your explanation better.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:18:32 AM
By the way, I just love Margery dissing Cersei. "Sorry, we would give you wine but it is a bit too early for us."  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 27, 2015, 12:32:24 AM
Best episode of the season, thus far.  Will be interesting to see how the changes continue to branch the storyline going forward.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:55:20 AM
I agree. It was a very stong ep. The only thing I didn't like was [spoiler]Littlefinger being completely in the dark about Ramsay.[/spoiler]

You'd think he is smarter than McCain's campaign managers...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 27, 2015, 01:03:48 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2015, 06:33:16 AM
Quote from: Jaron on April 21, 2015, 09:37:19 PM
I do so!

I thought your law school studies kept you too busy.  :cool:

:cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:03:13 AM
By the way, anyone else gets the[spoiler] "support AQ against Russia" vibe from Cersei's latest plot of allying herself with the sparrows?[/spoiler] Especially as the hints of [spoiler]"the faith militant was disarmed for a good reason"[/spoiler] are dropped all over the place.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:10:30 AM
Also, after the previous seasons' "there is no place more dangerous than your own wedding" [spoiler](admittedly, averted with Tommen's own wedding)[/spoiler] the new Westerosi rule seems to be that you should not go to brothels if you don't want to get hurt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 27, 2015, 06:11:07 AM
If the story follows the books in this regard, [spoiler]it was a terribly stupid decision by Cersei, especially as Lancel knows she has sinned.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 06:18:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:03:13 AM
By the way, anyone else gets the[spoiler] "support AQ against Russia" vibe from Cersei's latest plot of allying herself with the sparrows?[/spoiler] Especially as the hints of [spoiler]"the faith militant was disarmed for a good reason"[/spoiler] are dropped all over the place.

Does anybody argue to "support AQ against Russia?"  :huh:

Cersei's poor judgement has been a feature of the show all along; glad to see that they are able to keep some traditions going.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:47:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 06:18:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:03:13 AM
By the way, anyone else gets the[spoiler] "support AQ against Russia" vibe from Cersei's latest plot of allying herself with the sparrows?[/spoiler] Especially as the hints of [spoiler]"the faith militant was disarmed for a good reason"[/spoiler] are dropped all over the place.

Does anybody argue to "support AQ against Russia?"  :huh:

I was referring to more historical support of Afghanistan taliban against Russia in the last century.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 07:02:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:47:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 06:18:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 06:03:13 AM
By the way, anyone else gets the[spoiler] "support AQ against Russia" vibe from Cersei's latest plot of allying herself with the sparrows?[/spoiler] Especially as the hints of [spoiler]"the faith militant was disarmed for a good reason"[/spoiler] are dropped all over the place.

Does anybody argue to "support AQ against Russia?"  :huh:

I was referring to more historical support of Afghanistan taliban against Russia in the last century.

Ah, you didn't mean Al Quaeda or Russia.  :lol:

"Support the Muj against the Soviets" is more accurate and less flame-baity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:55:20 AM
I agree. It was a very stong ep. The only thing I didn't like was [spoiler]Littlefinger being completely in the dark about Ramsay.[/spoiler]

Or, at least, pretending to be...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 09:04:25 AM
The wife was railing about how insane it was for Sansa to agree to this, and why would Littlefinger make such a deal, etc., etc.

I just pointed out that so far the reason Littlefinger has done anything has never, not once, been the reason he has given "publicly". I rather doubt that is the case now either.

Of course he knows about Ramsay. How could he not? Ramsay's reputation is common knowledge, hell, that is pretty much the *point* of what Ramsay does...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 09:07:22 AM
So is he using Sansa as a pawn he can sacrifice or is he actually caring for her safety and having some plan up his sleeve so that Ramsay does not turn her into a modern sculpture?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
Or to put it into the narrative/storytelling perspective, I hope we are not up for another season of "Sansa getting brutalised by a psycho". I hope she will somehow turn tables on the Boltons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 10:10:45 AM
No, that is exactly my point. He looks like he is just making a deal to ally the Eyrie with the Boltons, and poor Sansa is the one paying the price.

Whatever we know about Littlefinger is that we can be relatively sure that what he appears to be doing, certainly what he appears to be agreeing with to the principals involved in his deal, is almost certainly NOT his actual plan.

I think Roose knows this - he doesn't trust Baelish at all, even though he cannot help but make this deal, which he knows is almost certainly some kind of trap.

I don't know how much Littlefinger actually cares about Sansa, or how much he is even capable of caring about Sansa. Not even sure the writers know that yet.

Which is another entire line of interesting questions...does Littlefinger care at all about vengeance? To the extent that he will account for it in his plans, for example?  He *did* care very much about Catelyn, but that didn't stop him from lying and manipulating her and started a conflict the ultimately resulted in her death and the near destruction of her family. Does he consider that a mistake on his part, something he wishes never happened? If he thinks the best move to secure more power to himself is to climb into bed with the Freys and Boltons, will he do that, truly do that?

I suspect not, at the end of the day. They will have his character end up actually giving a shit about something other than just power for it's own sake. But it could still go either way...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 10:17:45 AM
I suspect Littlefinger is setting up Roose and Ramsey for a falling-out, and Sansa is going along with this in order to get revenge on Roose.  The problem for Sansa will be that, afterwards, Ramsey is going to be a far more useful ally to Littlefinger than Sansa herself.

Its hard to tell whether Littlefinger wants to ally with the Freys or crush them.  He certainly has to have some plan to gain control of the Twins for himself or his allies.  To get the Freys, though, he pretty much has to abandon the idea of getting support in the North.  He's probably better off crushing them.  It's possible that, in the series, Littlefinger plays the role of Lady Ironheart!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 10:26:39 AM
I am beginning to think Sansa may actually play that role.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 27, 2015, 10:34:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
Or to put it into the narrative/storytelling perspective, I hope we are not up for another season of "Sansa getting brutalised by a psycho". I hope she will somehow turn tables on the Boltons.

She hates them for the part they played against Winterfell and her father so wants to get back at them. I think right now she feels she doesn't have much better choices than to go along with Littlefinger's plan. However I think she has in mind some way of getting back at the Boltons, not that she has any plan as yet. Maybe in time she could work with other northern lords,against the Boltons, as she works to betray the Boltons.  Many of the northern lords still have allegiance to the Starks and would love to get revenge on their enemies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 27, 2015, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 27, 2015, 06:11:07 AM
If the story follows the books in this regard, [spoiler]it was a terribly stupid decision by Cersei, especially as Lancel knows she has sinned.[/spoiler]

This is quite true - I was thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 10:26:39 AM
I am beginning to think Sansa may actually play that role.

That would be quite a turnaround for her character.  I'm not sure viewers would buy into psycho Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
I suspect that Sansa in the end will be the downfall of Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 11:17:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
I suspect that Sansa in the end will be the downfall of Littlefinger.

That certainly seems to be what Martin and the show have both been building towards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 27, 2015, 11:54:58 AM
In the books, [spoiler]Stannis marches to conquer Winterfell to free "Arya" (Jeyne Poole)[/spoiler] a bit after the events we've seen so far in the show. So this would add another angle to the Sansa storyline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 27, 2015, 11:54:58 AM
In the books, [spoiler]Stannis marches to conquer Winterfell to free "Arya" (Jeyne Poole)[/spoiler] a bit after the events we've seen so far in the show. So this would add another angle to the Sansa storyline.

I thought that [spoiler]Jeyne Poole and reek had already escaped Winterfell and joined Stannis before he reached Winterfell (perhaps before he marched).  In any case, Stannis should march soon in the series and the only question is whether Jon marches with him or, as in the book, separately and later. [/spoiler] I'm thinking the show might feature more Sansa and less Snow, however.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 27, 2015, 12:29:55 PM
You are right, but we don't know if that part will happen in the TV series as well. It's possible. I guess we can assume that Reek will play a substantial role in the Sansa storyline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 27, 2015, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:18:32 AM
By the way, I just love Margery dissing Cersei. "Sorry, we would give you wine but it is a bit too early for us."  :lol:

Between that, the "How should we adress you?" and the "Soon you might be Queen Grandmother!", it could be dialogue lifted from "Real Housewives of King's Landing", and add some sassy snaps and head movements.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:38:29 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 27, 2015, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 12:18:32 AM
By the way, I just love Margery dissing Cersei. "Sorry, we would give you wine but it is a bit too early for us."  :lol:

Between that, the "How should we adress you?" and the "Soon you might be Queen Grandmother!", it could be dialogue lifted from "Real Housewives of King's Landing", and add some sassy snaps and head movements.

I was hoping for an Alexis and Crystal battle royale to ensue. :P

I feel sorry for Tommen though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 27, 2015, 12:46:28 PM
I don't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 27, 2015, 12:48:56 PM
He's a teenager who gets to nail Natalie Dormer. I'm sure the actor's arm is aching from all the high fives he must be receiving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 01:07:39 PM
Anyways, my favourite part of the episode: Brienne is out to get Stannis for murdering Renly. I'm looking forward to the Otter King being avenged.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 27, 2015, 01:09:26 PM
Sansa in the show and in the books began to toughen up her attitude by around the time she was at the Erie and maybe sooner given how her father was killed and how roughly she was treated at King's Landing. She got some real doses of reality, very different from her childish dreams of becoming the bride of a prince. I don't expect she'll become some kind of warrior but I'm beginning to suspect that she may be ready to start some behind the scenes wheeling and dealing, especially once she gets more space from Littlefinger and comes into contact with some of her father's former banner men or their contacts. We did see one woman in the castle greet her kindly, welcoming her back as a Stark to her rightful place. There will be others and Sansa may be able to work that angle to contact the northern leaders, her father's and brother's former banner men.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
The writers of the show attempting to stay true to some of the content of the books while fundamentally changing some of the story lines is beginning to show some significant inconsistencies within the story the TV writers are attempting to tell.  This is based on watching up to and including the third episode this season.

1) As previously discussed in the TV show Snow knows that Bran and Rickon are alive.  In fact the main reason he went back to Craster's keep was to find them (bringing the mutineers to justice was the cover story he used to obtain permission to go).  When Stannis offers him the title of Lord of Winterfell (which happened again in espisode 3) Jon turns him down saying that he is the  Commander now - which is true and consistent with what happened in the book.  But the inconsistency with the new story line created by the show is that Jon does not go on to tell Stannis about Bran and Rickon.  Stannis wants a legitimate figurehead associated with the Starks to bring the North to his side.  Jon wants to find Bran and Rickon and provide for their safety.  Why wouldn't Jon tell Stannis about the heirs of the house Stark to enlist Stannis' aid to help protect them.  The answer sloppy writing.  The TV writers were keeping close to the plot in the book but didn't take into consideration that they had already significantly altered the story in a way that made the actions of Jon in the books no longer make sense.

2) How did the Vale know to where to find Little Finger in order to pass on the message.  That was sloppy writing.  It was in this season that Little Finger had made sure the Vale did not know where he was going.

3) When did the Imp become so stupid?  The scene in the brothel is completely inconsistent with his character in both the books and the show.  He has already been told that he might be recognized and so must take great care and then he goes to a brothel and all but announces he is a Lannister (ie the Lannister everyone is looking for).  I understand the desire of the writers to cut out a lot of the Imp's story about his travels and efforts to conceal his identity.  I enjoyed that part of the books but I understand why it would add a lot of screen time.  However they could have been more intelligent about it.

I am coming to the conclusion that the TV writers, left to their own devices, are not going to turn out the kind of story I was hoping for.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
The writers of the show attempting to stay true to some of the content of the books while fundamentally changing some of the story lines is beginning to show some significant inconsistencies within the story the TV writers are attempting to tell.  This is based on watching up to and including the third episode this season.

1) As previously discussed in the TV show Snow knows that Bran and Rickon are alive.  In fact the main reason he went back to Craster's keep was to find them (bringing the mutineers to justice was the cover story he used to obtain permission to go).  When Stannis offers him the title of Lord of Winterfell (which happened again in espisode 3) Jon turns him down saying that he is the  Commander now - which is true and consistent with what happened in the book.  But the inconsistency with the new story line created by the show is that Jon does not go on to tell Stannis about Bran and Rickon.  Stannis wants a legitimate figurehead associated with the Starks to bring the North to his side.  Jon wants to find Bran and Rickon and provide for their safety.  Why wouldn't Jon tell Stannis about the heirs of the house Stark to enlist Stannis' aid to help protect them.  The answer sloppy writing.  The TV writers were keeping close to the plot in the book but didn't take into consideration that they had already significantly altered the story in a way that made the actions of Jon in the books no longer make sense.

Agree that this is kind of turning into a mess. I don't know if Jon would certainly tell Stannis about Bran (did Sam tell him Rickon was alive as well?), but he would react in SOME manner, anyway. And certainly trying to find Rickon at least would be a reasonable thing to do..

Quote

2) How did the Vale know to where to find Little Finger in order to pass on the message.  That was sloppy writing.  It was in this season that Little Finger had made sure the Vale did not know where he was going.

Minor nit. In fact, you could argue that is isn't necessarily a error at all. The only reason we have to think the Vale doesn't know where LF is is LF telling Sansa that - he might have been lying. Or perhaps the Vale in general doesn't know, but some select people DO know (which would make sense given the nature of his mission) and those people were able to get him the message. In fact, for someone like LF, that would make a lot of sense - he still has to somehow keep in touch with what is going on, right? So someone has to know how to get a hold of him if necessary.

Quote
3) When did the Imp become so stupid?  The scene in the brothel is completely inconsistent with his character in both the books and the show.  He has already been told that he might be recognized and so must take great care and then he goes to a brothel and all but announces he is a Lannister (ie the Lannister everyone is looking for).  I understand the desire of the writers to cut out a lot of the Imp's story about his travels and efforts to conceal his identity.  I enjoyed that part of the books but I understand why it would add a lot of screen time.  However they could have been more intelligent about it.

Doesn't bother me - characters like Tyrion are always just as smart or dumb as the writers need them to be, and never consistently so...Tyrion is basically drunk all the time, a little self destructive, and basically not thinking much in any case. I can buy it, or at least pretend to buy it enough to not let it bother me...

Quote
I am coming to the conclusion that the TV writers, left to their own devices, are not going to turn out the kind of story I was hoping for.

I think that is a little pre-mature. But that might be my optimism talking...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 02:27:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
The writers of the show attempting to stay true to some of the content of the books while fundamentally changing some of the story lines is beginning to show some significant inconsistencies within the story the TV writers are attempting to tell.  This is based on watching up to and including the third episode this season.

1) As previously discussed in the TV show Snow knows that Bran and Rickon are alive.  In fact the main reason he went back to Craster's keep was to find them (bringing the mutineers to justice was the cover story he used to obtain permission to go).  When Stannis offers him the title of Lord of Winterfell (which happened again in espisode 3) Jon turns him down saying that he is the  Commander now - which is true and consistent with what happened in the book.  But the inconsistency with the new story line created by the show is that Jon does not go on to tell Stannis about Bran and Rickon.  Stannis wants a legitimate figurehead associated with the Starks to bring the North to his side.  Jon wants to find Bran and Rickon and provide for their safety.  Why wouldn't Jon tell Stannis about the heirs of the house Stark to enlist Stannis' aid to help protect them.  The answer sloppy writing.  The TV writers were keeping close to the plot in the book but didn't take into consideration that they had already significantly altered the story in a way that made the actions of Jon in the books no longer make sense.

Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.  You are drawing conclusions based on what you don't see, and that is always dangerous.  If they never explain why Jon doesn't call upon Stannis to aid his brothers, you will be correct.  That he hasn't so far just tells us that he hasn't. there may, indeed, be reasons.


Quote2) How did the Vale know to where to find Little Finger in order to pass on the message.  That was sloppy writing.  It was in this season that Little Finger had made sure the Vale did not know where he was going.

That's not sloppy writing at all.  That's quite deliberate.  Littlefinger even comments on it.  Presumably, we (and he) have been tipped that he has a balrog in his woodpile.   Your impatience doesn't make the writers sloppy.


Quote3) When did the Imp become so stupid?  The scene in the brothel is completely inconsistent with his character in both the books and the show.  He has already been told that he might be recognized and so must take great care and then he goes to a brothel and all but announces he is a Lannister (ie the Lannister everyone is looking for).  I understand the desire of the writers to cut out a lot of the Imp's story about his travels and efforts to conceal his identity.  I enjoyed that part of the books but I understand why it would add a lot of screen time.  However they could have been more intelligent about it.

Can't disagree with this.  They needed Tyrion to give himself away, but were completely artless in how they went about it.

QuoteI am coming to the conclusion that the TV writers, left to their own devices, are not going to turn out the kind of story I was hoping for.

Well, that certainly gives me hope.  :lol:   I wouldn't be much interested in the story you hope for. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 02:29:18 PM
What's up with the latest grumbler-CC-Berkut three-way love fest? It seems to be dominating every single thread of late.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Well the original plan was to bring Viserys to the throne by getting an army that would be answerable to his sister's husband (and hence potentially his sister).  So perhaps that outcome was not entirely unforeseen or unwelcome, although it is a very dangerous game to play with so few (?) legit heirs left, given prevailing life expectancies of the nobility in these stories.

That said, there is something dubious about the master plan of bringing an end to chaos and poor rule by systematically fomenting more chaos and worse rule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Well the original plan was to bring Viserys to the throne by getting an army that would be answerable to his sister's husband (and hence potentially his sister).  So perhaps that outcome was not entirely unforeseen or unwelcome, although it is a very dangerous game to play with so few (?) legit heirs left, given prevailing life expectancies of the nobility in these stories.

That said, there is something dubious about the master plan of bringing an end to chaos and poor rule by systematically fomenting more chaos and worse rule.

Yeah, I don't think Viserys schtick of being all about what is best for Westeros really works.

If he really cared about that, he would simply have supported Robert and the Lannisters without reservation. Certainly the Mad King was no picnic for the realm, and if what you care about is actually the "little people", then whatever avoids war and chaos is almost certainly what is best for them in a basically feudal system.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 27, 2015, 02:29:18 PM
What's up with the latest grumbler-CC-Berkut three-way love fest? It seems to be dominating every single thread of late.

:lol:  You've got 50% more posts than either Berkut or I, and you are moaning about us?  Life.  Get one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
Jon wants to find Bran and Rickon and provide for their safety.  Why wouldn't Jon tell Stannis about the heirs of the house Stark to enlist Stannis' aid to help protect them.

Of the top of my head:
(a) he doesn't trust Stannis
(b) he doesn't know if Stannis will win

2 pretty damn good reasons as I see it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 21, 2015, 11:12:31 AM
Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Well the original plan was to bring Viserys to the throne by getting an army that would be answerable to his sister's husband (and hence potentially his sister).  So perhaps that outcome was not entirely unforeseen or unwelcome, although it is a very dangerous game to play with so few (?) legit heirs left, given prevailing life expectancies of the nobility in these stories.

That said, there is something dubious about the master plan of bringing an end to chaos and poor rule by systematically fomenting more chaos and worse rule.

But I think that it is clear that Drogo's army would return to the grasslands, leaving no real check on Vserys's insanity.  Varys is clearly up to something other than what he is telling Tyrion he is up to, but what is his real plan?  Any guesses?  That is what makes the speculation abut him being a Targaryen so interesting (though I can't see any evidence for the hypothesis).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
Jon wants to find Bran and Rickon and provide for their safety.  Why wouldn't Jon tell Stannis about the heirs of the house Stark to enlist Stannis' aid to help protect them.

Of the top of my head:
(a) he doesn't trust Stannis
(b) he doesn't know if Stannis will win

2 pretty damn good reasons as I see it.

I guess those are plausible...but it's not like there are better options out there. He may not trust Stannis...but who would he trust instead? Leaving Rickon to wander about with a wildling to keep him company hardly seems like a better option.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:27:29 PM
but what is his real plan?  Any guesses?  That is what makes the speculation abut him being a Targaryen so interesting (though I can't see any evidence for the hypothesis).

1) He is and always has been an agent of commercial or political interests in the Free Cities, who have their own agenda and benefit from chaos in Westeros.

2) He is the "good government" type he says he is, but in keeping with the WotR/Rennaissance setting he is a Machiavelli, for whom good government is strong and firm government.  The Targaryens are the only ones who can provide that as they are outsiders whose authority transcends the feudal titles and land claims of the big houses. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:38:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:27:29 PM
but what is his real plan?  Any guesses?  That is what makes the speculation abut him being a Targaryen so interesting (though I can't see any evidence for the hypothesis).

1) He is and always has been an agent of commercial or political interests in the Free Cities, who have their own agenda and benefit from chaos in Westeros.

2) He is the "good government" type he says he is, but in keeping with the WotR/Rennaissance setting he is a Machiavelli, for whom good government is strong and firm government.  The Targaryens are the only ones who can provide that as they are outsiders whose authority transcends the feudal titles and land claims of the big houses.

Those both make sense.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
1) He is and always has been an agent of commercial or political interests in the Free Cities, who have their own agenda and benefit from chaos in Westeros.

Devastating, never-ending war does not repay loans nor increase tax revenues.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 27, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
I guess those are plausible...but it's not like there are better options out there. He may not trust Stannis...but who would he trust instead? Leaving Rickon to wander about with a wildling to keep him company hardly seems like a better option.

Jon presumably does not see status as a wildling as a negative indicator of trustworthiness . . .

The fact that most people still think they are dead, and no one knows where there are would seem to confer a big survival advantage given the recent history of the Starks.

Smart move is to keep them under cover until the political situation becomes more clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:44:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
1) He is and always has been an agent of commercial or political interests in the Free Cities, who have their own agenda and benefit from chaos in Westeros.

Devastating, never-ending war does not repay loans nor increase tax revenues.

Ah but lots of opportunities for profiteering and smuggling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 03:49:10 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:44:15 PM
Ah but lots of opportunities for profiteering and smuggling.

Smuggling still requires a customer with funds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 03:51:52 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
Jon wants to find Bran and Rickon and provide for their safety.  Why wouldn't Jon tell Stannis about the heirs of the house Stark to enlist Stannis' aid to help protect them.

Of the top of my head:
(a) he doesn't trust Stannis
(b) he doesn't know if Stannis will win

2 pretty damn good reasons as I see it.

Stannis has the largest army.  Stannis is the only way Bran or Rickon could be put back in Winterfell.  If Stannis doesn't win and Bolton keeps Winterfell there is no hope for house Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 27, 2015, 03:54:11 PM
Also: why didn't they just get the great eagles to airdrop Frodo on Mount Doom? Because they didn't, OK??!?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 03:58:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 27, 2015, 03:54:11 PM
Also: why didn't they just get the great eagles to airdrop Frodo on Mount Doom? Because they didn't, OK??!?

Or just get the great green blob to clear the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:59:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 27, 2015, 03:54:11 PM
Also: why didn't they just get the great eagles to airdrop Frodo on Mount Doom? Because they didn't, OK??!?

Why not? #curiousminds
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 27, 2015, 04:10:01 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:59:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 27, 2015, 03:54:11 PM
Also: why didn't they just get the great eagles to airdrop Frodo on Mount Doom? Because they didn't, OK??!?

Why not? #curiousminds

Elrond still hadn't taken Caen Dûm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 27, 2015, 05:02:05 PM
Well....that episode certainly changed a lot from the books.

And Rila Fukushima :o
I guess we will be seeing more of her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 27, 2015, 05:43:51 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 27, 2015, 05:02:05 PMAnd Rila Fukushima :o
I guess we will be seeing more of her.

Was that the weird looking priestess?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 27, 2015, 09:00:40 PM
Yes, she is the chick Wolverine nailed in the Wolverine.

To Berkut-Grumbler-CC axis of Book Overreading about the Snow-Stark story point #1. I disagree, it still makes sense if you have not read the books.

Jon doesn't trust Stannis, why give him Bran to help him? Jon doesn't need to protect Bran. He has already done so. He's hiding him in the north.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
I thought Jon didn't even know where Bran is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 27, 2015, 10:36:42 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if Sansa found a magical rod in the tombs of Winterfell and became the White Witch from Narnia?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 27, 2015, 11:13:27 PM
It would be inconsistent with what we know of her from The Magician's Nephew.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 28, 2015, 12:20:37 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 27, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 27, 2015, 03:27:29 PM
but what is his real plan?  Any guesses?  That is what makes the speculation abut him being a Targaryen so interesting (though I can't see any evidence for the hypothesis).

1) He is and always has been an agent of commercial or political interests in the Free Cities, who have their own agenda and benefit from chaos in Westeros.

2) He is the "good government" type he says he is, but in keeping with the WotR/Rennaissance setting he is a Machiavelli, for whom good government is strong and firm government.  The Targaryens are the only ones who can provide that as they are outsiders whose authority transcends the feudal titles and land claims of the big houses.

To elaborate point 2), his side-quest may also be to make sure all great houses are annihilated. He may be doing that both because he knows while they exist another Robert's Rebellion will always be a possibility; and he may simply have it in for them as chief oppressors of the land.

After all, he was aware of but did not stop (and sometimes in fact helped) the events that led to the deaths of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 28, 2015, 12:58:45 AM
What happened to KTHXBYE? :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2015, 02:34:35 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 27, 2015, 09:00:40 PM
Yes, she is the chick Wolverine nailed in the Wolverine.
Wrong guess again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 06:52:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
I thought Jon didn't even know where Bran is.

the Grey Fox-Grallon-Martinus Axis of Book Ignoring makes lots of assumptions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 06:56:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2015, 12:20:37 AM
To elaborate point 2), his side-quest may also be to make sure all great houses are annihilated. He may be doing that both because he knows while they exist another Robert's Rebellion will always be a possibility; and he may simply have it in for them as chief oppressors of the land.

After all, he was aware of but did not stop (and sometimes in fact helped) the events that led to the deaths of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister.
I'm not sure how bringing Viserys to the throne helps with that.  That he is helping kill off the "usurpers" doesn't mean he wants to destroy ALL of the Great Houses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:13:38 AM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2015, 02:34:35 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 27, 2015, 09:00:40 PM
Yes, she is the chick Wolverine nailed in the Wolverine.
Wrong guess again.

Right movie, wrong character?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:13:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 06:52:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
I thought Jon didn't even know where Bran is.

the Grey Fox-Grallon-Martinus Axis of Book Ignoring makes lots of assumptions.

You make way more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:13:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 06:52:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
I thought Jon didn't even know where Bran is.

the Grey Fox-Grallon-Martinus Axis of Book Ignoring makes lots of assumptions.

You make way more.

Has this method of "debate" helped you since second grade?  We kind of moved past it around then in these parts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 28, 2015, 08:33:29 AM
Why can't you just bloody enjoy a beautiful, fantastic drama?

It's the best TV made in the history of mankind. Just relax and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:34:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:13:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 06:52:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
I thought Jon didn't even know where Bran is.

the Grey Fox-Grallon-Martinus Axis of Book Ignoring makes lots of assumptions.

You make way more.

Has this method of "debate" helped you since second grade?  We kind of moved past it around then in these parts.

Yes.

This thread is 90% assumptions built upon assumptions, can we not use that word again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 28, 2015, 08:35:42 AM
Quote from: Norgy on April 28, 2015, 08:33:29 AM
Why can't you just bloody enjoy a beautiful, fantastic drama?

It's the best TV made in the history of mankind. Just relax and enjoy it.

Yeah, I don't analyze the show nearly as much as some people here. Not to say that it's bad to do so, just that I enjoy it for what it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 28, 2015, 08:41:03 AM
Quote from: Norgy on April 28, 2015, 08:33:29 AM
It's the best TV made in the history of mankind. Just relax and enjoy it.

:hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 08:42:28 AM
Quote from: Norgy on April 28, 2015, 08:33:29 AM
Why can't you just bloody enjoy a beautiful, fantastic drama?

It's the best TV made in the history of mankind. Just relax and enjoy it.

I don't see why those who just want to enjoy the show insist that others not talk about it or debate what the different events mean.  It isn't like you have to read the debates, or that I don't get to watch the show, enjoy it, and also debate and enjoy that.  Take your own advice:  just relax, enjoy the show, and so avoid threads titled anything like "Game of Thrones begins..."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 08:45:56 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:34:27 AM
Yes.

This thread is 90% assumptions built upon assumptions, can we not use that word again?

Glad those third-grade tactics work up there in the frozen north.  I'll remember that if I need some third-grade-level debate.

In the meantime, you certainly can avoid using the word "assumption."  No one here is forcing you to use it.  If by 'we' you mean the rest of us, how about you let others use words as they are appropriate, and not try to dictate which ones people can and can't use, m'kay?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 28, 2015, 08:46:30 AM
Congrats on graduating from the second to the third grade GF.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 08:48:17 AM
Quote from: Jaron on April 28, 2015, 08:35:42 AM
Yeah, I don't analyze the show nearly as much as some people here. Not to say that it's bad to do so, just that I enjoy it for what it is.

Exactly.  You can choose to join the discussion when it interests you, and avoid it when it doesn't.  Mostly, it doesn't, it would seem.  JR clearly seems to feel that way as well.  Neither of you tries to dictate what others do or which words they use.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2015, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2015, 08:46:30 AM
Congrats on graduating from the second to the third grade GF.
:lol:  :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 28, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
:yeah:

It's weird to alternate between agreeing and disagreeing with Grumbler on a post by post basis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 28, 2015, 12:22:14 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 28, 2015, 08:33:29 AM
Why can't you just bloody enjoy a beautiful, fantastic drama?

It's the best TV made in the history of mankind. Just relax and enjoy it.


No its not.
Italian TV show, Sandokan, with Kabir Bedi.
Best TV show EVER!!11
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 28, 2015, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 03:51:52 PM
Stannis has the largest army.

Didn't work so well for Renly. 

Actually my vague recollection from the books was that his army wasn't that big which is why he went for the northern gambit rather than confront the Lannisters directly.
'
QuoteIf Stannis doesn't win and Bolton keeps Winterfell there is no hope for house Stark.

Maybe or maybe not - clearly the north is going to be in flux for some time with winter and such coming.  And if the Lannisters lose their grip in the capital or decide the Boltons aren't such useful allies. . . . put it this way - with Martin's hyper-War of the Roses narrative, no one's position is ever secure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 28, 2015, 07:30:43 PM
IIRC Stannis is left with about 3,000 men when he ships north.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 28, 2015, 07:35:40 PM
Indeed, though [spoiler]he has since received reinforcements of a sort from among the Wildlings and the Hill Clans[/spoiler].  His army is one of the smallest in the field, but it is also one of the best-motivated, I suspect.  Helps that his enemies aren't exactly unified.

Stannis already tried directly opposing the Lannisters--Tyrion did him in in that regard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on April 28, 2015, 08:05:51 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 28, 2015, 08:33:29 AM
Why can't you just bloody enjoy a beautiful, fantastic drama?

It's the best TV made in the history of mankind. Just relax and enjoy it.

Hardly
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 29, 2015, 04:15:07 AM
All right, I guess I would rate the French series "Spiral" ahead of it. And "Gomorrah" from Italy too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2015, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 28, 2015, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 27, 2015, 03:51:52 PM
Stannis has the largest army.

Didn't work so well for Renly. 

Actually my vague recollection from the books was that his army wasn't that big which is why he went for the northern gambit rather than confront the Lannisters directly.
'
QuoteIf Stannis doesn't win and Bolton keeps Winterfell there is no hope for house Stark.

Maybe or maybe not - clearly the north is going to be in flux for some time with winter and such coming.  And if the Lannisters lose their grip in the capital or decide the Boltons aren't such useful allies. . . . put it this way - with Martin's hyper-War of the Roses narrative, no one's position is ever secure.


He has the largest army in the North and no Lannister army is going to move away from the south.

Regarding your second point, if a Stark heir is put back into Winterfell the amount of uncertainty in the North would reduce dramatically with or without Stannis succeeding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 01:24:58 PM
Yup. Ned Stark was brought down because he went South and got isolated and killed. I don't suppose any Southern army (sans dragons) could take out a Stark in Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 02:03:38 PM
Gay of Thrones continues to be the best recap series

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/d5fd396828/gay-of-thrones-s5-ep-3-recap

My favourites this week:

Blond Cher = Cersei
Evil Elijah Wood = Ramsay
Million Mom's March = Sparrows
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2015, 07:07:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 01:24:58 PM
Yup. Ned Stark was brought down because he went South and got isolated and killed. I don't suppose any Southern army (sans dragons) could take out a Stark in Winterfell.

Maybe once upon a time, but the Nrthern soldiers were mostly killed at the Red Wedding, and Winterfell was burned to the ground.  Even if it has been hastily repaired, there aren't the (non-Bolton) troops to man it.  Even sans the Lannisters, there are several powerful Southern armies. 

Now, if you were arguing that no southern army could be bothered to take Winterfell, I'd agree.  Winter is here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2015, 07:11:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2015, 02:03:38 PM
Gay of Thrones continues to be the best recap series

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/d5fd396828/gay-of-thrones-s5-ep-3-recap

My favourites this week:

Blond Cher = Cersei
Evil Elijah Wood = Ramsay
Million Mom's March = Sparrows

Okay, I grant you:  that was good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 12:53:33 AM
This is a weekly series and this episode was not even near top 10. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 12:58:40 AM
Here's one from this season's premiere:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3eef3ab2a5/gay-of-thrones-recaps-s5-ep1

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 30, 2015, 01:33:14 AM
Is it bad that I watch Gay of Thrones but don't have the drive to watch Game of Thrones? :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:53:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2015, 01:33:14 AM
Is it bad that I watch Gay of Thrones but don't have the drive to watch Game of Thrones? :blush:

No. :D

I haven't got to that point in Game of Thrones yet, but there are shows out there that I stopped watching but still read their humorous recaps on gay sites such as The Backlot (for example, Shameless US).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 30, 2015, 03:14:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2015, 01:33:14 AM
Is it bad that I watch Gay of Thrones but don't have the drive to watch Game of Thrones? :blush:

Yes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 30, 2015, 09:38:47 AM
But, I thought Sansa was going to marry the heir to the Vale, Harry The Heir, then kill Sweet Robin, Harry become Lord of the Vale, and then he and Snasa stage her claim to the North. Littlefinger seemed to be pushing for that resolution, which made me suspect the LF was goign to off Harry after Sansa got pregnant.

The middle game for Littlefinger seemed to me at the time, was he would marry Sansa after Sansa became regent of the Vale, claim the North, and if succesful would put the Vale, the North, and Harrenhall with the Riverlands under Littlefinger, and then he would go for the Crown.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 09:44:17 AM
That is the book Siege, not the show.

Stupid Sansa plot has not advanced in almost 10 years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 09:50:00 AM
Sansa Stark is most boring Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 09:53:44 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 09:50:00 AM
Sansa Stark is most boring Stark.

Are you trying to get me to roll my eyes so hard that they fall out of my head? Because trying to rob a man of his sight is pretty cruel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 30, 2015, 09:57:13 AM
Disagree. Rickon's done nothing worthy of note, and Bran's dreams aren't as interesting as the things Sansa witnesses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 09:59:55 AM
Rickon doesn't count.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2015, 11:10:23 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 09:59:55 AM
Rickon doesn't count.

Has there even been a Rickon POV chapter?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 30, 2015, 12:00:33 PM
Ricon will be the next Lord of Winterfell, Ward of the North to Queen Daenerys and King Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 30, 2015, 12:11:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 09:50:00 AM
Sansa Stark is most boring Stark.
still 100 times better than dae whatever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
My, how Cersei irritates me. Jon Snow irritates me too.

There's something about the old Nike slogan "just do it".

Stannis, however, is the biggest ass of them all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 30, 2015, 02:02:02 PM
Stannis is the one true king.  Also one of the best characters, at least in the books.  :pope:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 30, 2015, 02:04:34 PM
Stannis acquired his claim through war, as did everyone else.  Whoever wins is the one true king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Yeah. The claim that Stannis is the "one true king" is laughable. If the crown is claimed through blood then Daenerys has a better claim. If we accept that Targaeryens could have been legitimately usurped by Baratheons through the victory at the Red Fork, then Baratheons have been usurped by Lannisters through the victory at Blackwater, and Tommen has a better claim.

Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Yeah. The claim that Stannis is the "one true king" is laughable. If the crown is claimed through blood then Daenerys has a better claim. If we accept that Targaeryens could have been legitimately usurped by Baratheons through the victory at the Red Fork, then Baratheons have been usurped by Lannisters through the victory at Blackwater, and Tommen has a better claim.

Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.

Tommen is the king because of his claim to be the lawful heir of the Baratheon dynasty.  Stannis is the one true king because he is the lawful heir of the Baratheon dynasty.  But he has to defeat the pretender first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.

A brother who betrayed him and usurped his throne out of pure opportunism? Just saying. It was not like Renly denied that was what he was cynically doing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 30, 2015, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Yeah. The claim that Stannis is the "one true king" is laughable. If the crown is claimed through blood then Daenerys has a better claim. If we accept that Targaeryens could have been legitimately usurped by Baratheons through the victory at the Red Fork, then Baratheons have been usurped by Lannisters through the victory at Blackwater, and Tommen has a better claim.

Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.

Why are you still a Renly supporter?
He tried to usurp Stannis claim to the throne, and lost.
Natural selection. He selected himself out by not taking out Stannis, clearly his main rival, before attempting to march to King's Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

The Kingslayer is, in my opinion, the best character in the TV series. From completely unlikeable to somewhat sympathic.

Season five so far seems a bit tighter and with less boring storylines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on April 30, 2015, 03:00:09 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 30, 2015, 03:14:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2015, 01:33:14 AM
Is it bad that I watch Gay of Thrones but don't have the drive to watch Game of Thrones? :blush:

Yes.

<_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 03:05:25 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

He is just a nice boy. Now sure how that happened in that family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 30, 2015, 03:09:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 03:05:25 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

He is just a nice boy. Now sure how that happened in that family.

He will eventually show his true colors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

The Kingslayer is, in my opinion, the best character in the TV series. From completely unlikeable to somewhat sympathic.

Season five so far seems a bit tighter and with less boring storylines.

We are on episode three
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 03:49:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 30, 2015, 03:05:25 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

He is just a nice boy. Now sure how that happened in that family.

That, probably, will be his downfall.

GoT seems much darker this season. Cersei letting the religious fanatics loose. What happens in Castle Black, I have no idea about, but I do think Jon Snow's story arc is about to take a big upturn.

Aidan Gillen must be one of the best at playing semi-creepy roles. He was good in "The Wire", but his Littlefinger is just superb.

I hope for some comeuppance for the Boltons, but the way the series are made that's probably for season six.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 03:50:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

The Kingslayer is, in my opinion, the best character in the TV series. From completely unlikeable to somewhat sympathic.

Season five so far seems a bit tighter and with less boring storylines.

"Some" aren't.  :goodboy:

We are on episode three
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 04:13:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Yeah. The claim that Stannis is the "one true king" is laughable. If the crown is claimed through blood then Daenerys has a better claim. If we accept that Targaeryens could have been legitimately usurped by Baratheons through the victory at the Red Fork, then Baratheons have been usurped by Lannisters through the victory at Blackwater, and Tommen has a better claim.

Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.

Tommen is the king because of his claim to be the lawful heir of the Baratheon dynasty.  Stannis is the one true king because he is the lawful heir of the Baratheon dynasty.  But he has to defeat the pretender first.

That is exactly my point - Baratheons only won the throne because they defeated the rightful king in battle and got crowned as kings. Which is exactly what Tywin Lannister has done for Joffrey and then Tommen.

The argument of Stannis fanboys that Stannis's claim is somehow stronger than that of Tommen is laughable - Robert was an usurper and so was Joffrey. Both got the throne through conquest. If Stannis has a claim to the throne because he is a brother of the dead usurper, so does Tommen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 04:19:21 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 03:50:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
By episode four this season, it's rather obvious Tommen is completely useless.

The Kingslayer is, in my opinion, the best character in the TV series. From completely unlikeable to somewhat sympathic.

Season five so far seems a bit tighter and with less boring storylines.

"Some" aren't.  :goodboy:

We are on episode three

Berkut is going to chew your head off now.

But yeah, episode 4 is sweet. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Tywin has not claimed that Joffrey was king by right of conquest, but rather because he was the rightful heir of Robert. He was willing to fight to protect that claim, but it is not at all the same as a claim of right by conquest.

This really isn't that hard to understand.

Stannis is the "rightful" heir by birth as the heir of Robert Baratheon, who claimed the throne by conquest. If you accept that claim by conquest, then the next "rightful" king is Stannis. If you do NOT accept that claim, then the next rightful heir is Daenyrs. There is no way the correct heir is Tommen unless you reject the notion that he is illegitimate.


It's not like there is an established succession system that just says "When the king dies, we will have a war and whoever wins gets to be the new king!"

I cannot stand Stannis, but there is no question that his claim is stronger than Tommen's...once you accept that Tommen is a bastard by Jaime. The Lannister claim is based on birth, not conquest. If they all stood up and said "Yeah, Tommen is not Robert's heir, but we are going to claim the throne anyway" then a lot of houses would not support them that currently support them based on the strength of his claim as the heir of Robert.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 05:20:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 04:19:21 PM


Berkut is going to chew your head off now.

But yeah, episode 4 is sweet. :D

My head has been chewed off by so many here, I am unsure what is left of it.

And, yes, I watched the pirated stuff. Because I am one impatient bastard.

I don't really care who has the better claim. I see GoT partly as a lesson in storytelling.
My girlfriend is absolutely unimpressed. "It's like watching a soap with swords".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 05:47:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 04:13:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Yeah. The claim that Stannis is the "one true king" is laughable. If the crown is claimed through blood then Daenerys has a better claim. If we accept that Targaeryens could have been legitimately usurped by Baratheons through the victory at the Red Fork, then Baratheons have been usurped by Lannisters through the victory at Blackwater, and Tommen has a better claim.

Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.

Tommen is the king because of his claim to be the lawful heir of the Baratheon dynasty.  Stannis is the one true king because he is the lawful heir of the Baratheon dynasty.  But he has to defeat the pretender first.

That is exactly my point - Baratheons only won the throne because they defeated the rightful king in battle and got crowned as kings. Which is exactly what Tywin Lannister has done for Joffrey and then Tommen.

The argument of Stannis fanboys that Stannis's claim is somehow stronger than that of Tommen is laughable - Robert was an usurper and so was Joffrey. Both got the throne through conquest. If Stannis has a claim to the throne because he is a brother of the dead usurper, so does Tommen.

Berkut has already responded to your post and described why you are wrong.  But to repeat,  Joffrey didn't become king because of a battle.  He became king because he was presented as the heir of Robert Baratheon.   The battle ensued because Stannis learned that Joffrey was not the son of Robert but was instead the bastard son of an incestuous relationship.   This is the fundamental plot line in the early books... 

Tommen also is king because of his claim to be a Baratheon heir.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 30, 2015, 05:50:33 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 30, 2015, 05:20:36 PM
I don't really care who has the better claim. I see GoT partly as a lesson in storytelling.
My girlfriend is absolutely unimpressed. "It's like watching a soap with swords".

The issue of the validity of the conflicting claims is somewhat important to understanding the plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2015, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Tywin has not claimed that Joffrey was king by right of conquest, but rather because he was the rightful heir of Robert. He was willing to fight to protect that claim, but it is not at all the same as a claim of right by conquest.

This really isn't that hard to understand.

Stannis is the "rightful" heir by birth as the heir of Robert Baratheon, who claimed the throne by conquest. If you accept that claim by conquest, then the next "rightful" king is Stannis. If you do NOT accept that claim, then the next rightful heir is Daenyrs. There is no way the correct heir is Tommen unless you reject the notion that he is illegitimate.


It's not like there is an established succession system that just says "When the king dies, we will have a war and whoever wins gets to be the new king!"

I cannot stand Stannis, but there is no question that his claim is stronger than Tommen's...once you accept that Tommen is a bastard by Jaime. The Lannister claim is based on birth, not conquest. If they all stood up and said "Yeah, Tommen is not Robert's heir, but we are going to claim the throne anyway" then a lot of houses would not support them that currently support them based on the strength of his claim as the heir of Robert.

Indeed.  The concept of legitimacy may not matter to Marti, but in the historical time period modeled by the fiction, it was very powerful, indeed.  Claims by right of conquest were rare, because it opened up the question of "why you, then, and not me?"

Marti, read the books.  They explain all if this better than the TV show.  Tommen and Jeoffrey both claimed the throne by right of inheritance, not conquest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on April 30, 2015, 06:56:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 30, 2015, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 02:16:19 PM
Yeah. The claim that Stannis is the "one true king" is laughable. If the crown is claimed through blood then Daenerys has a better claim. If we accept that Targaeryens could have been legitimately usurped by Baratheons through the victory at the Red Fork, then Baratheons have been usurped by Lannisters through the victory at Blackwater, and Tommen has a better claim.

Either way, I can't wait for Brienne to kill his fratricidal ass.
Why are you still a Renly supporter?
He tried to usurp Stannis claim to the throne, and lost.
Natural selection. He selected himself out by not taking out Stannis, clearly his main rival, before attempting to march to King's Landing.
Martinus' love of Renly is based entirely on the fact that Renly was a homo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 30, 2015, 06:59:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Just to nitpick a little, this isn't entirely accurate.  Robert has a sort of claim through his grandmother.  He is 1/4th Targaryen, as are his brothers.  The claim isn't exactly strong, and he still acquired his throne by conquest, but it's more like a cadet branch taking over (see: Bourbons/Valois).

Impossible to quibble with the rest, unless you're Martinus.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 07:13:25 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 30, 2015, 06:59:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Just to nitpick a little, this isn't entirely accurate.  Robert has a sort of claim through his grandmother.  He is 1/4th Targaryen, as are his brothers.  The claim isn't exactly strong, and he still acquired his throne by conquest, but it's more like a cadet branch taking over (see: Bourbons/Valois).

Impossible to quibble with the rest, unless you're Martinus.

I thought about mentioning that, but figured it would just confuse the issue a bit.

But this actually reinforces the point. Everyone knows Robert took the throne by force, and was not at all a legitimate successor to the Targaeryns, but the reason Robert was king instead of say Ned was because of that tenuous relationship to the Targaeryn family, providing some kind of fig leaf of legitimacy. It shows just how important this is at this time - even though everyone knows Robert took the throne simply by force, that fig leaf is still critical.

And this makes sense when you think about it - it isn't just about who is king. It is about who is a Lord, and who is the rightful heir to any number of houses great and small. Maintaining the concept of some kind of ordered succession, with rule by conquest being VERY much the exception, is critical to the stability of the realm overall. When that stability breaks down, one of the primary goals of the people fighting is simply to restore it in some plausible fashion.

Tommen is not king because the Lannisters beat Stannis. He is king because a significant number of those who decide SAY he is king. Winning a battle helps, but it is putting the cart before the horse to say he is king by conquest. He certainly is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 01, 2015, 11:48:40 AM
What I don't get about the ASOIAFverse is the almost complete lack of cousins.
The lannisters have some but nobody else seems to. You would think that neds dad would have had brothers or at least his grandad.
But no. For cadet branches of the Starks you've just the karstarks who split off way back in the depths of time
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 01, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
Well, sending off surplus sons to the Wall doesn't help in that regard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2015, 12:02:07 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 01, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
Well, sending off surplus sons to the Wall doesn't help in that regard.

Not to mention the last war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 01, 2015, 12:03:30 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 01, 2015, 11:48:40 AM
What I don't get about the ASOIAFverse is the almost complete lack of cousins.
The lannisters have some but nobody else seems to. You would honk that neds dad would have had brothers or at least his grandad.
But no. For cadet branches of the Starks you've just the karstarks who split off way back in the depths of time

We only really get deeper into Stark and Lannister family relations - everybody else is not really relevant as there are no succession issues, but I would imagine Dorne, Iron Islands, the Vale etc. would be crawling with cousins.

Starks apparently have a tendency to die without issue. There have also been several females in the family who were married off to Royces and Karstarks.

My understanding of Northern/Winterfellian succession rules is that pure blood relations are not enough for a claim - you also have to be of the right house - and women join houses of their husbands upon marriage, thus their children do not get to inherit from their maternal grandfathers.

I suppose there may also be a tendency to send off extra siblings/sons to the Wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 01, 2015, 12:05:27 PM
You can find a (recent) family tree of Starks here. It seems there have been a lot of only sons or no-issue deaths.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 01, 2015, 12:06:43 PM
Also, apparently, Ned's mother was also a cousin Stark (so he is inbred :P).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 01, 2015, 12:16:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 01, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
Well, sending off surplus sons to the Wall doesn't help in that regard.

Good point.
Still, even sending one son per generation, there should be a bunch of cousins walking around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 03:09:46 PM
I just file that one in the "stuff that don't make sense in GoT", like dinasties that rule unchanged for thousands of years, how a world with seasons that last several years works or Martin's total lack of sense of proportion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 01, 2015, 03:47:53 PM
It makes perfect sense that Martin would want to keep the lines of inheritance simple in a story where inheritance plays such a key role.  The British House of Stuart had lots and lots of children dying in infancy, and Charles II, Mary II/William III, and Anne all died without adult issue.  Rather than having lots of kids who have to be kept track of and killed off before their majorities, Martin just doesn't have the major families generally having lots of kids.  That's perfectly okay with me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2015, 04:01:37 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 03:09:46 PM
I just file that one in the "stuff that don't make sense in GoT", like dinasties that rule unchanged for thousands of years, how a world with seasons that last several years works or Martin's total lack of sense of proportion.

Meh, there are lots of cases of Great Houses coming to an end because of a generation that was not as productive as others.  How many brothers did King Henry VIII have?  One older brother and he died.  Ned has two brothers, the older one died and Ned married the women his older brother was to wed.  The other one takes the Black.

How many uncles did Henry the VIII have?  How many sons did Henry VIII have and how long did he live?  You see the point.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 04:08:17 PM
Thing is, it's not just the Starks that have a pretty thin bench. Several other houses are a couple of unfortunate deaths away from dissappearing completely. The Arryns and the Tullys are in a similar situation, for instance, and these are supposed to be noble houses that have ruled unopposedly for hundreds of years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 01, 2015, 04:21:34 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 04:08:17 PM
Thing is, it's not just the Starks that have a pretty thin bench. Several other houses are a couple of unfortunate deaths away from dissappearing completely. The Arryns and the Tullys are in a similar situation, for instance, and these are supposed to be noble houses that have ruled unopposedly for hundreds of years.

But, again, this is to serve plot points.  You can't blame martin for serving the plot, even if you could objectively argue that it sounds like too many coincidences.  This is fiction; realism has been subordinated to plot in so many ways that this gripe seems like griping for the sake of griping.

If these issues didn't serve the plot, you'd have a stronger case.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 04:58:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2015, 04:21:34 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 04:08:17 PM
Thing is, it's not just the Starks that have a pretty thin bench. Several other houses are a couple of unfortunate deaths away from dissappearing completely. The Arryns and the Tullys are in a similar situation, for instance, and these are supposed to be noble houses that have ruled unopposedly for hundreds of years.

But, again, this is to serve plot points.  You can't blame martin for serving the plot, even if you could objectively argue that it sounds like too many coincidences.  This is fiction; realism has been subordinated to plot in so many ways that this gripe seems like griping for the sake of griping.

If these issues didn't serve the plot, you'd have a stronger case.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care about much of this stuff, I just say that there's lots of flimsy stuff in the background. Lots of things in the setup of the universe where the story is set don't make much sense, or seem workable at all or are plain strange or whatever, but it doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the story. I mean, when they say that the Starks have ruled the North basically unopposed for thousands of years I'm not going to nitpick it, I'll just think to myself that it sounds really weird and is quite unrealistic, shrug and go on, as it doesn't really affect the current action.

There's a funny trivia piece about this kind of stuff from when they started shooting the tv show. In order to recreate the Wall they used an abandoned quarry in Northern Ireland and rigged it to make it look like the Wall. One day while they were shooting Martin visited the set, and congratulated the producers on how faithfully they had recreated it for the shoot. They answered that they would still need to add lots of FX and CGI afterwards to make it look even taller, and Martin asked why because to him it already looked tall enough, and the producers said that in the books it is stated that it's supposed to be 700 feet tall or something (roughly the height of a small skyscraper), and that the quarry was only a small fraction of it, to which Martin basically answered "oh". I don't know if this is real, hearsay or fabricated, but it kinda supports the fact that Martin basically threw numbers around when building his world without really caring about what they meant, so there's no point in nitpicking them, just change the words in your mind when they say something to "really fucking fall" or "really fucking old", and it serves the same purpose for the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2015, 05:48:14 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 04:08:17 PM
Thing is, it's not just the Starks that have a pretty thin bench. Several other houses are a couple of unfortunate deaths away from dissappearing completely. The Arryns and the Tullys are in a similar situation, for instance, and these are supposed to be noble houses that have ruled unopposedly for hundreds of years.

Sure but the lack of heirs in those families is what drives the story.  There are other families that are not so denuded.  Think of the Freys  :D.  Others had larger families but have been largely killed off.  The TV show played down a lot of the carnage that happened in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 01, 2015, 06:16:16 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 01, 2015, 04:58:47 PM
Don't get me wrong, I don't really care about much of this stuff, I just say that there's lots of flimsy stuff in the background. Lots of things in the setup of the universe where the story is set don't make much sense, or seem workable at all or are plain strange or whatever, but it doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the story. I mean, when they say that the Starks have ruled the North basically unopposed for thousands of years I'm not going to nitpick it, I'll just think to myself that it sounds really weird and is quite unrealistic, shrug and go on, as it doesn't really affect the current action.

There's a funny trivia piece about this kind of stuff from when they started shooting the tv show. In order to recreate the Wall they used an abandoned quarry in Northern Ireland and rigged it to make it look like the Wall. One day while they were shooting Martin visited the set, and congratulated the producers on how faithfully they had recreated it for the shoot. They answered that they would still need to add lots of FX and CGI afterwards to make it look even taller, and Martin asked why because to him it already looked tall enough, and the producers said that in the books it is stated that it's supposed to be 700 feet tall or something (roughly the height of a small skyscraper), and that the quarry was only a small fraction of it, to which Martin basically answered "oh". I don't know if this is real, hearsay or fabricated, but it kinda supports the fact that Martin basically threw numbers around when building his world without really caring about what they meant, so there's no point in nitpicking them, just change the words in your mind when they say something to "really fucking fall" or "really fucking old", and it serves the same purpose for the story.

I agree that martin was just telling a story without worrying about how such things would work in the real world.  It is fun to question things within the make-believe world he sets up (and within many others - see how much ink has been spilled over Lord of the Rings, and I have spilled a lot myself over Babylon 5), but there are certain rules to the speculation game, #1 of which is you can't challenge the basic assertions of the world being speculated about.  An author of fiction who allows himself to be limited by reality is a different beast than one writing fantasy or SF, by definition.

One of the things I like about the GoT TV series' writers is that they recognize that they need to show, not tell, and that they are committed to doing nothing that spoils that dictum.  They don't dwell, as Martin can in the books, on secondary characters or genealogy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 07:35:43 PM
Grumbler makes a salient point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 01, 2015, 09:58:01 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 30, 2015, 06:59:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Just to nitpick a little, this isn't entirely accurate.  Robert has a sort of claim through his grandmother.  He is 1/4th Targaryen, as are his brothers.  The claim isn't exactly strong, and he still acquired his throne by conquest, but it's more like a cadet branch taking over (see: Bourbons/Valois).

Impossible to quibble with the rest, unless you're Martinus.

After the death of Viserys, Robert actually became the legitimate heir by inheritance as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_House_Targaryen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_House_Targaryen)  :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2015, 12:43:45 AM
I think the point about "not enough cousins" fails to acknowledge that in many cases we are probably not being told about cousins because it serves no purpose for the plot.

I mean, which other family, in your view is showing a distinct lack of cousins? Noone else is facing the type of extinction Starks are. Arryns have a heir - and in the books there is a distant cousin heir who would inherit if Robin croaked. For Tullys, again, we have a heir, and if he dies without issue, there is another heir, the Blackfish - only if these two die, there is a problem of finding another heir.

Why would, then, the family situation of Arryns and Tullys be relevant enough to the plot to introduce cousin characters?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2015, 01:10:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2015, 07:35:43 PM
Grumbler makes a salient point.

Rockin' vocab bro.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 02, 2015, 05:24:40 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2015, 01:10:39 AM

Rockin' vocab bro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4t5R3fTbD0

Very rockin'.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 06:40:59 AM
Could someone explain something to me? There seems to be a bunch of book readers who are upset that when Jon was executing Janos, he did not say "Edd, fetch me a block" but instead said "Ollie bring me my sword."

:hmm:

Could anyone explain to me why the former is such an "iconic line" for some? I don't even recall that line from the books and it seems like it is one bland, completely inconsequential line replaced with another. In fact, I would say that if anything, the sword reference is better, as it constitutes the call back to the pilot where Ned did the same with Robb. So what gives (other than nerds being autistic).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2015, 06:56:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 06:40:59 AM
Could someone explain something to me? There seems to be a bunch of book readers who are upset that when Jon was executing Janos, he did not say "Edd, fetch me a block" but instead said "Ollie bring me my sword."

:hmm:

Could anyone explain to me why the former is such an "iconic line" for some? I don't even recall that line from the books and it seems like it is one bland, completely inconsequential line replaced with another. In fact, I would say that if anything, the sword reference is better, as it constitutes the call back to the pilot where Ned did the same with Robb. So what gives (other than nerds being autistic).

:hmm:  It strikes me that you are better-off asking the people who have actually expressed the view you question, rather than asking a bunch of people who don't express that view to explain it.  There are some smart people here , but, other than Raz and cC, they are not mind readers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 03, 2015, 06:57:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 06:40:59 AM
Could someone explain something to me? There seems to be a bunch of book readers who are upset that when Jon was executing Janos, he did not say "Edd, fetch me a block" but instead said "Ollie bring me my sword."

:hmm:

Could anyone explain to me why the former is such an "iconic line" for some? I don't even recall that line from the books and it seems like it is one bland, completely inconsequential line replaced with another. In fact, I would say that if anything, the sword reference is better, as it constitutes the call back to the pilot where Ned did the same with Robb. So what gives (other than nerds being autistic).

Because novels are historical sources.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2015, 06:58:35 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 03, 2015, 06:57:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 06:40:59 AM
Could someone explain something to me? There seems to be a bunch of book readers who are upset that when Jon was executing Janos, he did not say "Edd, fetch me a block" but instead said "Ollie bring me my sword."

:hmm:

Could anyone explain to me why the former is such an "iconic line" for some? I don't even recall that line from the books and it seems like it is one bland, completely inconsequential line replaced with another. In fact, I would say that if anything, the sword reference is better, as it constitutes the call back to the pilot where Ned did the same with Robb. So what gives (other than nerds being autistic).

Because novels are historical sources.

Okay, cC.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2015, 07:00:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 06:40:59 AM
it seems like it is one bland, completely inconsequential line replaced with another.

Talk about desensitization to violence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 03, 2015, 08:12:27 AM
They've moved the release time on Danish HBO from 12:00 Monday to 03:00 Monday. I guess that brings us up to date with the Yanks. :yeah:

Not that I'll be waiting up... I don't think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 03, 2015, 11:34:45 AM
Gosh darn it. Sunday night I'm in such a perfect mood for watching GOT but I'm trying to fight the urge to rush ahead and watch the 4th episode a day early, I have to ween myself onto inferior Monday night viewings...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 11:37:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2015, 11:34:45 AM
Gosh darn it. Sunday night I'm in such a perfect mood for watching GOT but I'm trying to fight the urge to rush ahead and watch the 4th episode a day early, I have to ween myself onto inferior Monday night viewings...

Right now it's hardly an early viewing. Just think of it as staying late to watch it. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 03, 2015, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2015, 04:13:56 PM
That is exactly my point - Baratheons only won the throne because they defeated the rightful king in battle and got crowned as kings.

Well they were also the legal heirs once you got rid of all the Targs. It was not like they were some sellswords.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 03, 2015, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Yeah he was. His claim was based on birthright which is what gave his revolt legitimacy. The Baratheons are descended from the Targaryens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2015, 02:08:09 PM
The Blondefolk were usurpers as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2015, 02:08:09 PM
The Blondefolk were usurpers as well.

Not really - they did not usurp anyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2015, 04:10:22 PM
Quit stalking me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 03, 2015, 04:28:06 PM
Yeah, they were unifiers, not usurpers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2015, 04:33:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2015, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Yeah he was. His claim was based on birthright which is what gave his revolt legitimacy. The Baratheons are descended from the Targaryens.

I don't think he based this claim on inheritance.  He couldn't.  There were still Targaryens with a better inheritance claim than his.  Plus, he mentions that he wanted Ned to become the king after the Mad King was overthrown, if I remember the book correctly, and Ned refused.  Add to that the fact that it wasn't "his" revolt at all: it was Jon Aryan's revolt and Ned's revolt.  Robert just joined them because he was their friend.  All that adds up to a claim by right of conquest, not inheritance.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 03, 2015, 06:11:46 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 03, 2015, 06:56:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 06:40:59 AM
Could someone explain something to me? There seems to be a bunch of book readers who are upset that when Jon was executing Janos, he did not say "Edd, fetch me a block" but instead said "Ollie bring me my sword."

:hmm:

Could anyone explain to me why the former is such an "iconic line" for some? I don't even recall that line from the books and it seems like it is one bland, completely inconsequential line replaced with another. In fact, I would say that if anything, the sword reference is better, as it constitutes the call back to the pilot where Ned did the same with Robb. So what gives (other than nerds being autistic).

:hmm:  It strikes me that you are better-off asking the people who have actually expressed the view you question, rather than asking a bunch of people who don't express that view to explain it.  There are some smart people here , but, other than Raz and cC, they are not mind readers.


Raz agrees with Grumbler, gains vast mental powers!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 11:48:20 PM
Cersei is so dumb. She is all tactics and no strategy. Unleashing religious zealotry to get back at the brother of her daughter in law is just stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 01:50:51 AM
Also we get two (or three if you count Ser Barristan's backstory) R+L=J hint bombs!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:19:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2015, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2015, 04:22:24 PM
Nobody claimed that Robert was the "rightful" heir to the throne of the Targearyns. He had no "claim" by birthright, he conquered them. That established a new dynasty.

Yeah he was. His claim was based on birthright which is what gave his revolt legitimacy. The Baratheons are descended from the Targaryens.

Read the thread. This was noted - but his claim was still not by birth. It's not like absent the rebellion, anyone was sitting around discussing whether Robert should be the next king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:06:31 AM
My review of this episode: Melisandre. A+.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 04:33:58 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:06:31 AM
My review of this episode: Melisandre. A+.

Is she really, though? I am admittedly not the expert in the field, but do people find Melisandre hot as depicted on the show? She seems quite plain to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 04:33:58 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:06:31 AM
My review of this episode: Melisandre. A+.

Is she really, though? I am admittedly not the expert in the field, but do people find Melisandre hot as depicted on the show? She seems quite plain to me.

HOTT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
Also, I don't understand Cersei's motivation here either. Has she really become so petty as to let loose an uncontrollable army just to spite her daughter in law? In the books there were a bit more at play, and also a 'bigger' target iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 05:48:33 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
Also, I don't understand Cersei's motivation here either. Has she really become so petty as to let loose an uncontrollable army just to spite her daughter in law? In the books there were a bit more at play, and also a 'bigger' target iirc.

Yeah, many commentators have pointed out that there are two elements missing in the show that make the story less compelling. One is the debt the crown owed to the Faith in the books (which was another motivation for Cersei to want to cozy up with them); another was Cersei's inner monologue - without which she seems much dumber (or at least more inexcusably dumb).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Unsullied: Most overrated combat troops ever? How can a rag tag bunch of misfits like the Sons of the Harpy bring down so many of them so easily?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 04, 2015, 06:21:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Unsullied: Most overrated combat troops ever? How can a rag tag bunch of misfits like the Sons of the Harpy bring down so many of them so easily?

To be fair, they were either assassinated or vastly outnumbered. But it did look like the only really good fighter they had was Grey Worm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:35:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 06:21:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Unsullied: Most overrated combat troops ever? How can a rag tag bunch of misfits like the Sons of the Harpy bring down so many of them so easily?

To be fair, they were either assassinated or vastly outnumbered. But it did look like the only really good fighter they had was Grey Worm.

Even if outnumbered, they are supposed to be elite troops, they should be able to take on a bunch of amateurs without breaking a sweat. I guess that they are meant to be lead by others, given that they're dragged into traps so easily.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 04:33:58 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:06:31 AM
My review of this episode: Melisandre. A+.

Is she really, though? I am admittedly not the expert in the field, but do people find Melisandre hot as depicted on the show? She seems quite plain to me.

HOTT.

Concur with my esteemed colleague. Redhead with a sultry attitude? You have my interest.

Also, it gets proven that Jon Snow has a thing for redheads. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 07:41:47 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
Also, it gets proven that Jon Snow has a thing for redheads. :p

Not really. All it proves is tha redheads have a thing for Jon Snow. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 04, 2015, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:35:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 06:21:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Unsullied: Most overrated combat troops ever? How can a rag tag bunch of misfits like the Sons of the Harpy bring down so many of them so easily?

To be fair, they were either assassinated or vastly outnumbered. But it did look like the only really good fighter they had was Grey Worm.

Even if outnumbered, they are supposed to be elite troops, they should be able to take on a bunch of amateurs without breaking a sweat. I guess that they are meant to be lead by others, given that they're dragged into traps so easily.
The problem might be that they're soldiers, not policemen.  The two jobs are very different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 09:44:02 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2015, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:35:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 06:21:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Unsullied: Most overrated combat troops ever? How can a rag tag bunch of misfits like the Sons of the Harpy bring down so many of them so easily?

To be fair, they were either assassinated or vastly outnumbered. But it did look like the only really good fighter they had was Grey Worm.

Even if outnumbered, they are supposed to be elite troops, they should be able to take on a bunch of amateurs without breaking a sweat. I guess that they are meant to be lead by others, given that they're dragged into traps so easily.
The problem might be that they're soldiers, not policemen.  The two jobs are very different.

I agree, and IIRC they even say so in the books as well. Then again, this was plain combat, and they were useless. No attempt to make a formation at all, and take advantage of their training, which is what sets them appart from their rivals. That's rather poor showing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 10:20:59 AM
No kidding. I usually just assume it is the nerd in me, but that kind of thing annoys me to no end, simply because it looks bad, it makes them look kind of pathetic, AND you could tell the same story in the same time in a much better way simply by having them fight like soldiers, and kick some ass before succumbing to numbers after being trapped. Hell, you could make it downright heroic.

The only possible reason I can think of for making them all look like chumps is some weird desire to make Grey Worm look exceptional?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 04, 2015, 11:15:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 10:20:59 AM
No kidding. I usually just assume it is the nerd in me, but that kind of thing annoys me to no end, simply because it looks bad, it makes them look kind of pathetic, AND you could tell the same story in the same time in a much better way simply by having them fight like soldiers, and kick some ass before succumbing to numbers after being trapped. Hell, you could make it downright heroic.

The only possible reason I can think of for making them all look like chumps is some weird desire to make Grey Worm look exceptional?

Almost all of the fights in the show have been done fairly clumsily.  I suppose that, if the show must have a weakness, that's one of the more tolerable ones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 11:22:47 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 04, 2015, 11:15:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 10:20:59 AM
No kidding. I usually just assume it is the nerd in me, but that kind of thing annoys me to no end, simply because it looks bad, it makes them look kind of pathetic, AND you could tell the same story in the same time in a much better way simply by having them fight like soldiers, and kick some ass before succumbing to numbers after being trapped. Hell, you could make it downright heroic.

The only possible reason I can think of for making them all look like chumps is some weird desire to make Grey Worm look exceptional?

Almost all of the fights in the show have been done fairly clumsily.  I suppose that, if the show must have a weakness, that's one of the more tolerable ones.

I am ok with the individual fights. They are...ok.

And this I guess is blocked out the same - some soldiers get trapped, and they all fight as individuals, in 8 little separate fights, instead of (obviously) a bunch of trained spearmen immediately forming into ranks and daring any of the masked guys to come close.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 04, 2015, 11:26:15 AM
Realistic combat in film and television is pretty uncommon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.

You're reading too much into that anecdote.

Btw, regarding the end of episode 4 and its consequences... [spoiler]it is confirmed by the actor that Ser Barristan is dead.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:52:38 PM
Also, does anyone else think that the Teenage Mutant Ninja Sand Snakes should have been introduced into a Tarantinoesque montage, with each of presented with the weapon of choice? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.

You're reading too much into that anecdote.

Btw, regarding the end of episode 4 and its consequences... [spoiler]it is confirmed by the actor that Ser Barristan is dead.[/spoiler]

Well, that blows. Just as we were getting "Rhaegar is not a rapist" stories. Danny is fucked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 01:01:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.

You're reading too much into that anecdote.

Btw, regarding the end of episode 4 and its consequences... [spoiler]it is confirmed by the actor that Ser Barristan is dead.[/spoiler]

Well, that blows. Just as we were getting "Rhaegar is not a rapist" stories. Danny is fucked.

[spoiler]It clears the way for Jorah Mormont's return. It would have been impossible if Selmy was still around.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 01:01:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.

You're reading too much into that anecdote.

Btw, regarding the end of episode 4 and its consequences... [spoiler]it is confirmed by the actor that Ser Barristan is dead.[/spoiler]

Well, that blows. Just as we were getting "Rhaegar is not a rapist" stories. Danny is fucked.

[spoiler]It clears the way for Jorah Mormont's return. It would have been impossible if Selmy was still around.[/spoiler]

Indeed, it basically make Mormont's return a necessity. Kind of weird - she is replacing Barristna with Tyrion?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 04, 2015, 01:39:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:19:35 AM
Read the thread. This was noted - but his claim was still not by birth. It's not like absent the rebellion, anyone was sitting around discussing whether Robert should be the next king.

If a freak accident had wiped out all the Targs they would have. Besides you cannot have Robert's Rebellion without the claim. That was a pretty vital piece for why the rebellion worked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 04, 2015, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.

You're reading too much into that anecdote.



Is he? I took it to mean that she contracted the grey scale from the doll.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 04, 2015, 02:09:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.



Btw, regarding the end of episode 4 and its consequences... [spoiler]it is confirmed by the actor that Ser Barristan is dead.[/spoiler]

That's another departure from the books, is it not?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2015, 01:39:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:19:35 AM
Read the thread. This was noted - but his claim was still not by birth. It's not like absent the rebellion, anyone was sitting around discussing whether Robert should be the next king.

If a freak accident had wiped out all the Targs they would have. Besides you cannot have Robert's Rebellion without the claim. That was a pretty vital piece for why the rebellion worked.

No, that is simply not true. The Rebellion "worked" because Aerys was a crazy fuck who everyone hated. Robert was the chosen replacement because he had the best "claim" of all the principles involved, and could make the best match. If his claim was not best, the next best would have had to do, and would have.


The reality is that Robert's claim was one of conquest. His being some distant Targaeryn relation was a fig leaf, and everyone knew it. There are probably a dozen or more other lords in Westeros with similar "claims". But they didn't overthrow the Targaeryns, and Robert did...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 04, 2015, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.

You're reading too much into that anecdote.



Is he? I took it to mean that she contracted the grey scale from the doll.

I think the reading in is the assumption that it was intentional. Although I don't think it is too much of a read into it...why would just the doll be contagious?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 04, 2015, 02:37:30 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 04, 2015, 02:09:21 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Loved the Shereen and Stannis scene. By the way, does it imply that the Dornish deliberately infected Shereen with the grey scale - or am I reading too much into the doll story? They sure would have a reason to want to get back at Baratheons.



Btw, regarding the end of episode 4 and its consequences... [spoiler]it is confirmed by the actor that Ser Barristan is dead.[/spoiler]

That's another departure from the books, is it not?

Yes, but [spoiler]I have strong suspicions that Barristan the Bold isn't long for this world.  He will probably perish in the battle in the sixth book.  The preview chapters seem to point to a complete rout of the forces arrayed against Dany, which isn't surprising, but I strongly suspect Martin will off Selmy so as to incur a 'real' cost to Dany for her ways.  I could be wrong.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 04, 2015, 03:23:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:31:32 PM
I think the reading in is the assumption that it was intentional. Although I don't think it is too much of a read into it...why would just the doll be contagious?

The doll may have been the only thing Stannis bought, considering he said the rest of it was crap. And poisoning Shireen wouldn't be out of character for the Dornish, see how this episode they're plotting to kill Myrcella.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 03:37:45 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 04, 2015, 03:23:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2015, 02:31:32 PM
I think the reading in is the assumption that it was intentional. Although I don't think it is too much of a read into it...why would just the doll be contagious?

The doll may have been the only thing Stannis bought, considering he said the rest of it was crap. And poisoning Shireen wouldn't be out of character for the Dornish, see how this episode they're plotting to kill Myrcella.

But why poison Shereen if they are mad at Robert? Or the Lannisters? That doesn't make any sense.

At that point Stannis is not the focus of the Dornish anger. Going after his daughter? Why? What would that accomplish, other than pissing off Stannis?

If the Dornes were engaged in an ongoing effort to assassinate random (and that would definitely be incredibly random given the other potential targets) Baratheon noble kids, why not the children of Robert, or any number of Lannisters?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2015, 03:53:04 PM
Opportunity?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 04, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
I think the only point of that scene was to show that Stannis isn't a total ass. How his daughter contractedthe disease is not important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 04, 2015, 04:01:29 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 04, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
I think the only point of that scene was to show that Stannis isn't a total ass. How his daughter contractedthe disease is not important.

Concur. AFAIK in the books (which are way more prone for conspiracy theories) it is not mentioned how she contracted the disease exactly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 04, 2015, 04:12:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2015, 01:39:23 PM
Besides you cannot have Robert's Rebellion without the claim. That was a pretty vital piece for why the rebellion worked.

Of course you could have Robert's Rebellion without the claim.  In fact, Westeros DID have Robert's Rebellion without the claim.  Robert only claimed the throne just before the Battle of the Trident.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 04, 2015, 04:38:35 PM
Those unsullied were a bit crap.
True, conditions weren't ideal and they were outnumbered.... But these are supposed to be elite soldiers whilst the harpies are just regular citizens with no Military training.
Lame Selmy would go down like so too.

One thing that really annoyed me was a stannis quote when speaking to his daughter. Stone men in valyria. Oh no.... Cutting out the Rhone is been and done but merging it with valyria like so? I prefer book valyria as some far away scary untouchable place. Not a leper colony.

I didn't read the doll as poisoned. Merely infected naturally
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 04, 2015, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
Also, I don't understand Cersei's motivation here either. Has she really become so petty as to let loose an uncontrollable army just to spite her daughter in law? In the books there were a bit more at play, and also a 'bigger' target iirc.
The way I see it she thinks she is buying an ally by putting herself across as so lovely and religious (because nobody has heard the stories about her :rolleyes:) and giving them a lot of power.
I guess the high sparrow also seems to be quite a nice figure at the moment. A nice kindly man. When she gets bit it will be interesting to see him change
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 04, 2015, 04:50:13 PM
We should be very careful not to spoiler the series in the Cersei story line.  Some here are probably over that line a wee bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on May 04, 2015, 05:37:20 PM
TBH I think Dynasties lasting for a really, really long time aren't that weird.  The Caucasus and Japan have families that have lasted for hundreds, in the case of Armenia and Georgia a few thousand years.  The Seven Kingdoms is actually fairly isolated and self-contained relative to any continent in reality; in the past several thousand years it has seen four main invasions, and one of these was by a few thousand men and a few very, very powerful dragons and the other only half-colonized the coast of the poorest province.  I think GRRM purposefully constructed it to look like 14-15th Century England, but the resulting polity maybe looks as much like China or India at certain periods.  If we were to get really, truly nerdy I would argue that the feudal system, with its focus on large-scale clan like families over individual claims or territorial identities, quite closely resembles Japan or other Feudal-like societies such as Medieval Armenia or Sassanid Persia.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 04, 2015, 08:49:30 PM
IIRC, at one point Littlefinger explained that, if Harry Hardying were to succeed Robin as Lord of the Vale, he'd adopt the Arryn family name. If that's also a tradition in the other kingdoms, it could explain the lifespan of the dynasties.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 05, 2015, 08:06:52 AM
That Sansa plot is so crazy, it's good.

Especially since I see Little Finger has the real power in Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
Or, at least, Littlefinger thinks he has the real power in Westeros.

The fact that he agreed with Sansa that the older Bolton is the one to be feared (when Ramsey is far more dangerous, because deranged) indicates that maybe he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.  The fact that he is returning to King's Landing (where the Sparrows are running wild against people just like him) also tells me that maybe he doesn't quite have the grasp on affairs that he believes himself to possess.

BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 05, 2015, 09:33:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AMThe fact that he is returning to King's Landing (where the Sparrows are running wild against people just like him) also tells me that maybe he doesn't quite have the grasp on affairs that he believes himself to possess.

Yeah, the brothel manager mentioned Littlefinger's name twice to the Sparrows to no avail. I can't help but think that is going to play a role later on, exactly how I'm unsure of though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 09:55:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 04, 2015, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 04, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
Also, I don't understand Cersei's motivation here either. Has she really become so petty as to let loose an uncontrollable army just to spite her daughter in law? In the books there were a bit more at play, and also a 'bigger' target iirc.
The way I see it she thinks she is buying an ally by putting herself across as so lovely and religious (because nobody has heard the stories about her :rolleyes:) and giving them a lot of power.
I guess the high sparrow also seems to be quite a nice figure at the moment. A nice kindly man. When she gets bit it will be interesting to see him change

Given that Lancel (who was her lover and accomplice and is her cousin) is a member of the Sparrows, this logic is quite flawed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 09:58:46 AM
Anyway I am mainly bummed by there being no "this birthmark looks like this part of continent" sexposition scenes between Loras and Olyvar in foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 05, 2015, 10:00:41 AM
Cersei is cunning but stupid, this isn't a new development.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 05, 2015, 11:36:59 AM
Was Lancel a Sparrow in the book? Can't remember
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 05, 2015, 11:39:14 AM
Sort of.  He was severely (near-fatally) injured at the same battle, so much that his hair went white.  He then spurned his arranged marriage and went off to be a religious zealot, joining up with the religious knights instead of the poor soldiers.  The TV series seems to have done away with the knightly elements of the group and just made it a mass movement instead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 11:43:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2015, 11:48:20 PM
Cersei is so dumb. She is all tactics and no strategy. Unleashing religious zealotry to get back at the brother of her daughter in law is just stupid.

Another example where the books did a much better job of explaining the reason she did it and why, at the time, it made good sense.  I agree that in the show she just ends up looking daft.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 05, 2015, 08:06:52 AM
That Sansa plot is so crazy, it's good.

Especially since I see Little Finger has the real power in Westeros.

Or at least Littlefinger is the master manipulator in all of Westeros. He is a gambler willing to risk all for great gain.  He doesn't have real power - yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 05, 2015, 11:54:05 AM
I think he already has it but has not realise it yet. He's too busy setting up the Lannisters to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:01:08 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 05, 2015, 11:54:05 AM
I think he already has it but has not realise it yet. He's too busy setting up the Lannisters to die.

I guess we will see what the writers of the show have in mind when he meets with Cersie next episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]

Lol Yes [spoiler]Barriston goes out fighting the enemies of his queen, kills many of them, and saves Grey Worm's life.  That's how he would have wanted to go, and as he got older the chances were diminishing.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 05, 2015, 11:39:14 AM
Sort of.  He was severely (near-fatally) injured at the same battle, so much that his hair went white.  He then spurned his arranged marriage and went off to be a religious zealot, joining up with the religious knights instead of the poor soldiers.  The TV series seems to have done away with the knightly elements of the group and just made it a mass movement instead.

Yes.  Another example of how the TV series deleted things that would just take too long to explain, like the knights-penitent.  Having Lancel be a Sparrow works just as well and is simpler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:12:21 PM
Works well for simple minds yes.  But we miss a lot of the plot that makes the characters actions make sense if one thinks that sort of thing is important.  Why did a young man who had an incestuous relationship with the most powerful women in the kingdom suddenly become a religious zealot?   Who knows. Cant show that part of the story. Takes too much time.  Just suspend disbelief and go with the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]

Why is everything else on the last episode a non spoiler but this suddenly is?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 12:17:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:12:21 PM
Works well for simple minds yes.  But we miss a lot of the plot that makes the characters actions make sense if one thinks that sort of thing is important.  Why did a young man who had an incestuous relationship with the most powerful women in the kingdom suddenly become a religious zealot?   Who knows. Cant show that part of the story. Takes too much time.  Just suspend disbelief and go with the story.

Only because something is not explained in detail for morons on screen does not mean it involves "suspension of desbelief" especially if it involves a tertiary character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:17:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]

Why is everything else on the last episode a non spoiler but this suddenly is?

:lol:

[spoiler]I was wondering the same thing[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 12:17:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:12:21 PM
Works well for simple minds yes.  But we miss a lot of the plot that makes the characters actions make sense if one thinks that sort of thing is important.  Why did a young man who had an incestuous relationship with the most powerful women in the kingdom suddenly become a religious zealot?   Who knows. Cant show that part of the story. Takes too much time.  Just suspend disbelief and go with the story.

Only because something is not explained in detail for morons on screen does not mean it involves "suspension of desbelief" especially if it involves a tertiary character.

True, but it also leads to the larger problem you already identified that Cersie just looks stupid for the decision she made.  The reason Lancel became a follower is bound up in the reason Cersei supported the High Sparrow.  That whole part of the story (which I think was the most interesting) is cut out and replaced with Cersie being petulant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 05, 2015, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
Or, at least, Littlefinger thinks he has the real power in Westeros.

The fact that he agreed with Sansa that the older Bolton is the one to be feared (when Ramsey is far more dangerous, because deranged) indicates that maybe he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.  The fact that he is returning to King's Landing (where the Sparrows are running wild against people just like him) also tells me that maybe he doesn't quite have the grasp on affairs that he believes himself to possess.

BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

I think strategically the older Bolton is the one to fear, being the one with power and he's quite ruthless, just not deranged like his half-son. He's as nasty, vicious in the books as I remember it. Though I can't imagine what the younger Bolton would be like if he comes to rule.

I'm always surprised that the unsullied don't have short weapons like swords to use in close quarters fighting. The spears are great but difficult to use in fast moving close in fights. I don't remember from the books but they probably just have the spears there too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 05, 2015, 12:39:18 PM
It was a mistake to make the Unsullied castrati.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 05, 2015, 12:41:06 PM
The entire Cersei-Sparrow thing so far has been very badly done, IMO.

I don't mind simplifying for the sake of time and show space. But they changed stuff so that it makes the story LESS interesting, and makes LESS sense.

They completely missed setting up the need for the arming of the religious orders completely. No mention, even in passing, of the desire for armed monks/priests/lay people at all. This would have taken about 2 minutes of screen time sprinkled throughout the last season and a half.

They have Cersei suggesting this to the head sparrow, as if he had never even thought of the idea. Why would SHE suddenly think of the idea, much less think it is a good idea, since she isn't getting anything for allowing it, since SHE IS THE ONE SUGGESTING IT!

This does not save any time from the way the book had it, and makes a LOT less sense, and makes

Cersei look even more stupid
Makes Head Sparrow guy look less clever, since apparently he is too dumb himself to think of the idea of arming his followers.
And makes the king looks that much weaker since he apparently cannot even handle these guys who are armed only by his own sufferance, and with no guarantee of any kind.

There is no sense of "Oh crap, what did I do allow here?" since it was the Lannisters who came up with the entire idea of arming them to begin with, and for no discernible reason or even justification.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 05, 2015, 12:57:15 PM
While I enjoy reading it, you guys are doing again. None of this is a problem is you have not read the books.

Lancel is shell shock & finds religion.
Cersei is a reactionary mother trying to regain control of her boy-king and her hold on the country. Head Sparrow is not clever, Cersei is. Until he betrays her, I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 05, 2015, 01:11:59 PM
It isn't about him betraying her, it is about them clearly (already) creating something they cannot control. That is the point, even outside the books. Cersei is thinking short term, which is fundamentally her problem throughout. Someone said it before - she is thinking tactically, and forgetting the larger picture.

Ignoring the books, the plot line here doesn't make sense. Why would Cersei even get the idea of creating an armed order? Where did the need for such a thing even come from? It is invented whole cloth in the same episode they are created. They could have set this up so much better if they had thought more than one episode ahead - which is pretty obvious, which suggests to me that they did NOT think more than one episode at a time for this part of the story, which is unfortunate and sloppy. Just a few seconds of screen time in previous episodes, with a comment during a small council meeting of atrocities being committed against silent sisters or priests, and the problem that creates since the religious orders are forbidden by royal edict from being armed.


Something that would setup the need for the sparrow to want something from Cersei, and Cersei giving it to him in return for what she thinks is control. This would take very little time, and make a vastly more compelling story.

Yeah, comaring it to the books it is very poorly done, but even ignoring the books, it is still pretty poorly handled.

And even in the show, it is pretty obvious head sparrow is a bit more clever than he is letting on...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]

Why is everything else on the last episode a non spoiler but this suddenly is?

Fine. Barristan gets shanked by idiots like a chump.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 05, 2015, 01:20:47 PM
He gets shanked by a crowd, also as they are either mercs or nobles they probably have some training.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]

Lol Yes [spoiler]Barriston goes out fighting the enemies of his queen, kills many of them, and saves Grey Worm's life.  That's how he would have wanted to go, and as he got older the chances were diminishing.[/spoiler]

It's not the purpose of his death, it's who gets to kill him. Gangbangers with shivs killing the most skilled knight in Westeros is not believable in the slightest. In the books Barristan is still alive and pretty much running things in Meereen, and [spoiler]if he gets killed in the next book it'll be in a large battle against Yunkai.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2015, 12:17:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 12:12:21 PM
Works well for simple minds yes.  But we miss a lot of the plot that makes the characters actions make sense if one thinks that sort of thing is important.  Why did a young man who had an incestuous relationship with the most powerful women in the kingdom suddenly become a religious zealot?   Who knows. Cant show that part of the story. Takes too much time.  Just suspend disbelief and go with the story.

Only because something is not explained in detail for morons on screen does not mean it involves "suspension of desbelief" especially if it involves a tertiary character.

This is cC. He'd dispute it if I said the sky was blue.  It's kind of amusing, really. 

In reality, you are correct that Lancel's actions make as much sense as a Sparrow as they do as a knight-penitent.  And cC misses the fact that Lancel explains why he became a religious zealot, but that's kind of  amusing, as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2015, 01:20:47 PM
He gets shanked by a crowd, also as they are either mercs or nobles they probably have some training.

I've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 01:30:24 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
BTW, I agree with the complaint that the Unsullied responded poorly to the mob, but like the fact that [spoiler]Barristan got such a nice send-off - he'd want to go in battle[/spoiler]

Lol no. [spoiler]Barristan getting murdered by a bunch of civilian morons is not a good send-off. And they kept Grey Worm alive, so we can look forward to more Missandei romance-angst scenes. :yuk:[/spoiler]

Lol Yes [spoiler]Barriston goes out fighting the enemies of his queen, kills many of them, and saves Grey Worm's life.  That's how he would have wanted to go, and as he got older the chances were diminishing.[/spoiler]

It's not the purpose of his death, it's who gets to kill him. Gangbangers with shivs killing the most skilled knight in Westeros is not believable in the slightest. In the books Barristan is still alive and pretty much running things in Meereen, and [spoiler]if he gets killed in the next book it'll be in a large battle against Yunkai.[/spoiler]

Agreed.  The most important man in the city walking about without an armed escort when the Sons of the Harpy are on a killing spree?  Another example of the writers of the show taking sloppy short cuts.  Now that they have moved well outside the narrative of the books they are not telling a very compelling story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 05, 2015, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
I've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

They're sons of high lords, what else are they gonna do?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 05, 2015, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2015, 01:34:28 PM
They're sons of high lords, what else are they gonna do?

Bang slaves?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:38:47 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2015, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
I've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

They're sons of high lords, what else are they gonna do?

These are nobles of the Slaver's Bay. I don't remember how exactly it goes in Meereen, but from the overall description I recall them using mercs/slave soldiers/Unsullied for all their fighting needs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 05, 2015, 01:40:15 PM
What's to stop them from getting out-of-a-job favoured slave soldiers to join the Harpies?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 05, 2015, 01:45:16 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:38:47 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 05, 2015, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
I've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

They're sons of high lords, what else are they gonna do?

These are nobles of the Slaver's Bay. I don't remember how exactly it goes in Meereen, but from the overall description I recall them using mercs/slave soldiers/Unsullied for all their fighting needs.

The Sons of the Harpy may be using mercs for the attacks.  What I find most surprising is that Barristan, who knows about the threat, is dumb enough to walk around the streets without an escort and dumb enough to enter into a battle without calling for assistance first.  Why would he sacrifice his life for the sake of a street brawl?  His purpose in life is to protect the Queen and help her rule.   Just one more example of the writers of the show having to dumb down the main characters to make their version of the story work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 03:09:42 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:23:27 PM
It's not the purpose of his death, it's who gets to kill him. Gangbangers with shivs killing the most skilled knight in Westeros is not believable in the slightest. In the books Barristan is still alive and pretty much running things in Meereen, and [spoiler]if he gets killed in the next book it'll be in a large battle against Yunkai.[/spoiler]

"not believable in the slightest."  You keep using that phrase.  I do not think it means what you think it means.  You may find it unbelievable, but it is entirely believable to most people who spend a moment thinking about it that a man with a sword can be swarmed by a bunch of guys with knives.  Guys with guns have been swarmed by guys armed essentially with knives.  Ever heard of the  Battle of Isandlwana?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2015, 03:11:03 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 05, 2015, 01:40:15 PM
What's to stop them from getting out-of-a-job favoured slave soldiers to join the Harpies?

Indeed.  Mercs, all of the unemployed pit fighters... lots of sources of blades-for-hire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 05, 2015, 08:15:27 PM
Just watched the episode. THIS IS SOME BULLSHIT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 05, 2015, 08:37:37 PM
Could you be more specific?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 05, 2015, 09:56:49 PM
Easy there, grumbler. We don't need two of you in this thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 05, 2015, 10:21:34 PM
Or one of you, for that matter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 06, 2015, 07:14:49 AM
Oh, stop. Don't make a nuisance of yourself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:21:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 05, 2015, 12:41:06 PMThey completely missed setting up the need for the arming of the religious orders completely. No mention, even in passing, of the desire for armed monks/priests/lay people at all. This would have taken about 2 minutes of screen time sprinkled throughout the last season and a half.

They have Cersei suggesting this to the head sparrow, as if he had never even thought of the idea. Why would SHE suddenly think of the idea, much less think it is a good idea, since she isn't getting anything for allowing it, since SHE IS THE ONE SUGGESTING IT!

This does not save any time from the way the book had it, and makes a LOT less sense, and makes

Cersei look even more stupid
Makes Head Sparrow guy look less clever, since apparently he is too dumb himself to think of the idea of arming his followers.
And makes the king looks that much weaker since he apparently cannot even handle these guys who are armed only by his own sufferance, and with no guarantee of any kind.

There is no sense of "Oh crap, what did I do allow here?" since it was the Lannisters who came up with the entire idea of arming them to begin with, and for no discernible reason or even justification.

it was pretty obvious she sought the high sparrow as a power play. she had no allies left, so she created a new one. king was always weak, in show and in book. the "oh crap, what did I allow here" comes in the following episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PMI've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

you've seen no indication that a rebellious organization that attacks soldiers via traps has no significant combat training?

Quote from: crazy canuckThe most important man in the city walking about without an armed escort when the Sons of the Harpy are on a killing spree?  Another example of the writers of the show taking sloppy short cuts.  Now that they have moved well outside the narrative of the books they are not telling a very compelling story.

has an important man ever walked the streets alone without an armed escort and been killed as a result? also, he did not know the sons were on a killing spree because his reactions when the bells rang and people were screaming indicates that. his first reaction was to go help, which is very fitting with the character shown on television.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:29:18 AM
good lord, there's loads of histrionics here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2015, 07:35:31 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:29:18 AM
good lord, there's loads of histrionics here.

HOW DARE YOU!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 07:37:19 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuckThe most important man in the city walking about without an armed escort when the Sons of the Harpy are on a killing spree?  Another example of the writers of the show taking sloppy short cuts.  Now that they have moved well outside the narrative of the books they are not telling a very compelling story.

has an important man ever walked the streets alone without an armed escort and been killed as a result? also, he did not know the sons were on a killing spree because his reactions when the bells rang and people were screaming indicates that. his first reaction was to go help, which is very fitting with the character shown on television.

Indeed. I love the idea that the guys whose job is to be the very best bodyguard in the world is stupid because he doesn't use bodyguards!  :lol:  Now there is a sloppy short cut in reasoning!

Also, of course he didn't know what the threat was.  cC knew what the threat was, because he watched the whole episode.  Barriston Selmy didn't have any idea that there was an entire mob of Sons on the rampage; he heard a commotion and went to investigate, and was asshole-deep in Sons before he realized what was happening.  That's different than the book, but not dumber, except maybe to people who are kinda dumb themselves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:39:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 06, 2015, 07:35:31 AMHOW DARE YOU!

some book fans expect X but when they see Y, they freak out and yell that it makes no sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 07:37:19 AMIndeed. I love the idea that the guys whose job is to be the very best bodyguard in the world is stupid because he doesn't use bodyguards!  :lol:  Now there is a sloppy short cut in reasoning!

not to mention it wouldn't make much sense for barristan to even have a bodyguard at this point. he knows there are rebellious elements around and daenery's unsullied are limited in number and must garrison an entire city. from everything we've seen, this is the first public attack. barristan is the humble type; if he was offered bodyguards off screen, he probably turned down the offer. there are more important jobs for the unsullied than to protect his old self.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 06, 2015, 07:54:49 AM
Or, wait for it... this is a work of fiction!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:58:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2015, 07:54:49 AM
Or, wait for it... this is a work of fiction!

i don't like that excuse. characters should make sense; luckily, the characters here make sense. the actions by the Game of Thrones characters may not make sense given A Song of Ice and Fire's context, but that's a childish comparison.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2015, 07:54:49 AM
Or, wait for it... this is a work of fiction!

Oh, wait for it... no shit, Sherlock!  When did you first gain this [not] astonishing revelation?  And why did you think it would be a revelation to anyone else posting here?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 06, 2015, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PMI've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

you've seen no indication that a rebellious organization that attacks soldiers via traps has no significant combat training?

Quote from: crazy canuckThe most important man in the city walking about without an armed escort when the Sons of the Harpy are on a killing spree?  Another example of the writers of the show taking sloppy short cuts.  Now that they have moved well outside the narrative of the books they are not telling a very compelling story.

has an important man ever walked the streets alone without an armed escort and been killed as a result? also, he did not know the sons were on a killing spree because his reactions when the bells rang and people were screaming indicates that. his first reaction was to go help, which is very fitting with the character shown on television.

So are you saying Danny is Hillary and this is her Benghazi?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2015, 10:17:03 AM
So are you saying Danny is Hillary and this is her Benghazi?

Ben Ghazi was in the book, but I don't think the character is going to make it to the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2015, 07:01:45 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
has an important man ever walked the streets alone without an armed escort and been killed as a result? also, he did not know the sons were on a killing spree because his reactions when the bells rang and people were screaming indicates that. his first reaction was to go help, which is very fitting with the character shown on television.

There are some of problems with this view.  He did know that the Sons of the Harpy were killing unsullied.  That goes back to the first episode of this season.  So why is the most important man in the City walking the streets alone when he knows there is such a threat.  It doesn't make much sense.  You should remember he was no mere bodyguard at that point.  In response to your assertion that his first reaction to help was "very fitting" with his character, what do you base that on?  His history shows his duty to the royal person he serves is paramount.  His first reaction in hearing that there is armed conflict in the streets would be to go back and make sure the Queen was safe. ie  his first responsibility.   I agree with the point made earlier that this death was senseless and particularly so when one considers what his purpose was after he left the Seven Kingdoms - to serve and protect the last heir of the royal line he had served all his life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on May 06, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
I don't have any problem with Cersei and the Sparrows, or with the Sons of the Harpy and the Unsullied, but I agree that Barristan walking through the city alone was goofy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 06, 2015, 07:57:59 PM
I just don't get why the writers decided to off him so early.  I really hope it pans out into something intelligible and not them just deciding to make the story "easier" for themselves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Kleves on May 06, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
I don't have any problem with Cersei and the Sparrows, or with the Sons of the Harpy and the Unsullied, but I agree that Barristan walking through the city alone was goofy.

Agreed.  Jamie Lannister never moves without a troop of bodyguards.  Why would the best bodyguard of them all not use lots of bodyguards?  And, of course, each of those bodyguards would need a bunch of bodyguards... It's bodyguards all the way down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 08:10:10 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 06, 2015, 07:57:59 PM
I just don't get why the writers decided to off him so early.  I really hope it pans out into something intelligible and not them just deciding to make the story "easier" for themselves.

My guess is that they need Tyrion to join Dani, and so are using Mormont to bring about the rendezvous.  Selmy wouldn't allow Mormont within a league of Dani, so he has to go.  Maybe Tyrion even becomes Dani's political adviser in place of Ser Barriston.

All of these would be easier than maintaining the rather boring status quo, even if the sq matches the boring parts of the novels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 07, 2015, 01:18:32 AM
Wonder where Tyrion vanishing leaves varys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 07, 2015, 05:23:56 AM
Theory confirmed?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg-9gag-fun.9cache.com%2Fphoto%2FaVW4zwK_700b.jpg&hash=b8d4dffc3080576de82e73ffd8daf1692e895301)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 07, 2015, 05:43:48 AM
You are joking, right? I guess all American Presidents who said "God Bless America" must also be the same person!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 07, 2015, 05:56:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2015, 05:43:48 AM
You are joking, right? I guess all American Presidents who said "God Bless America" must also be the same person!

If they were characters in GoT, they would be. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 07, 2015, 08:08:23 AM
Not such a coincidence. They're both Braavosi.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 07, 2015, 08:45:09 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 07, 2015, 01:18:32 AM
Wonder where Tyrion vanishing leaves varys.

I was wondering the same thing. I think he's wanted by the Lanisters as they must know he helped Tyrion flee, or suspect it since he's missing from King's Landing. I forget how the two of them left the city, and if Varys has any cover for himself for leaving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 08:08:23 AM
Not such a coincidence. They're both Braavosi.

Any they both need to shoot their hairdressers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2015, 10:23:17 AM
Self hating Jew disses the rockin' Jewfro.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 11:29:43 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 08:08:23 AM
Not such a coincidence. They're both Braavosi.

Any they both need to shoot stab their hairdressers
FYP.  Neither has shown any aptitude with bow or crossbow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 07, 2015, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Kleves on May 06, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
I don't have any problem with Cersei and the Sparrows, or with the Sons of the Harpy and the Unsullied, but I agree that Barristan walking through the city alone was goofy.

Agreed.  Jamie Lannister never moves without a troop of bodyguards.  Why would the best bodyguard of them all not use lots of bodyguards?  And, of course, each of those bodyguards would need a bunch of bodyguards... It's bodyguards all the way down.

Seems silly to guard a guard when he's a guard. (misquote from a Python sketch)

Anyway....I disagree with Jamie always having bodyguards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 07, 2015, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Kleves on May 06, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
I don't have any problem with Cersei and the Sparrows, or with the Sons of the Harpy and the Unsullied, but I agree that Barristan walking through the city alone was goofy.

Agreed.  Jamie Lannister never moves without a troop of bodyguards.  Why would the best bodyguard of them all not use lots of bodyguards?  And, of course, each of those bodyguards would need a bunch of bodyguards... It's bodyguards all the way down.

Seems silly to guard a guard when he's a guard. (misquote from a Python sketch)

Anyway....I disagree with Jamie always having bodyguards.

there may have been an element of tongue-in-cheek to my post.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 07, 2015, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 06, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Kleves on May 06, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
I don't have any problem with Cersei and the Sparrows, or with the Sons of the Harpy and the Unsullied, but I agree that Barristan walking through the city alone was goofy.

Agreed.  Jamie Lannister never moves without a troop of bodyguards.  Why would the best bodyguard of them all not use lots of bodyguards?  And, of course, each of those bodyguards would need a bunch of bodyguards... It's bodyguards all the way down.

Seems silly to guard a guard when he's a guard. (misquote from a Python sketch)

Anyway....I disagree with Jamie always having bodyguards.

When he was at King's Landing Barristan was just a guard and far from one of the most important people in the city.  He took on a very different role once he became the main advisor to the Queen.   A distinction lost on some here and apparently the writers of the show.

Jamie has always been a guard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 02:11:23 PM
Some here seem to think that these characters are not intended to be people, but to be robots mechanically computing and executing the optimal objective task at any given moment, without any self-respect or limits on their knowledge.  They don't "get" storytelling.

Some here think that Ser Barriston, the character, knew the script and so knew that the Sons were operating in numbers too large for him to handle.   Some here don't understand how debate within canon works - you cannot criticize a character for not knowing what the audience knows.  All of the Sons'  previous attacks had been in small numbers on isolated Unsullied, and they had faded immediately into the background.  As far as Ser Barriston know, he had to arrive quickly to catch a handful of Sons (too few to threaten the greatest warrier around) in the act.  Some here don't seem to get that.

The idea that a leader would take risks even when much depends on him is, historically, absurd.  Had Pyoter Bagration led from the front like this, he would probably have been killed at Borodino.  Imagine  Gustavus Adolphus leading a cavalry charge at the battle of Lutzen!  :lol:  Why, he might have been killed!  Why would the most important man in Sweden lead a cavalry charge when he knows there is such a threat?  It doesn't make much sense.  And, lord know, real people don't do things that don't make sense to sensible people, so having a fictional character do something that a rather slow person might think doesn't make sense isn't on at all.

Some here... right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 07, 2015, 03:43:16 PM
I agree with grumbler. In fact from my experiences with pen and paper roleplaying, people who always chose the optimal path for their characters were the most boring. Some of the most fun sessions I ever had a both a player and a game master was when people where making dumb (but in-character) choices.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

Incorrect.  In both the Books and the show he had to renounce his inheritance to become a King's Guard.  That is the main reason his father was so upset about the decision.  From that point on he was just a guard.  King Joffrey certainly didn't care too much about him. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2015, 03:43:16 PM
I agree with grumbler. In fact from my experiences with pen and paper roleplaying, people who always chose the optimal path for their characters were the most boring. Some of the most fun sessions I ever had a both a player and a game master was when people where making dumb (but in-character) choices.

People trying to role play are expected to make dumb decisions that are out of character.  We tend to expect more from writers who are paid for their work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 04:06:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

He also missed the fact that Jamie was promoted to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, a position roughly equivelent to Ser Barriston's role for Dani.  Yet he allowed Ser Jaime to run around without a bodyguard, never calling that dumb.  Some double standards here, or just being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate?  Ser Jamie has "always been a guard" as much as Ser Sarriston has been, and as little.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:08:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 04:06:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

He also missed the fact that Jamie was promoted to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, a position roughly equivelent to Ser Barriston's role for Dani.  Yet he allowed Ser Jaime to run around without a bodyguard, never calling that dumb.  Some double standards here, or just being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate?  Ser Jamie has "always been a guard" as much as Ser Sarriston has been, and as little.

Another inaccuracy Grumbler.  The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is not a member of the Small Council and in no way advises the King.  You have to ignore these distinctions for your view to have any merit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 04:15:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

Incorrect.  In both the Books and the show he had to renounce his inheritance to become a King's Guard.  That is the main reason his father was so upset about the decision.  From that point on he was just a guard.  King Joffrey certainly didn't care too much about him. ;)

Hmm that seems to make me correct - he wasn't "always" a guard - wasn't till the third(?) book
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2015, 04:16:50 PM
He was a Kingsguard when he skewered the last Targaryian.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 04:15:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

Incorrect.  In both the Books and the show he had to renounce his inheritance to become a King's Guard.  That is the main reason his father was so upset about the decision.  From that point on he was just a guard.  King Joffrey certainly didn't care too much about him. ;)

Hmm that seems to make me correct - he wasn't "always" a guard - wasn't till the third(?) book

No.  The books start with him being a guard.  Remember, he was a guard when he killed the mad king.  He was the youngest King's Guard ever iirc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
The books starting with him being a guard does not always mean he has been a guard...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:39:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
The books starting with him being a guard does not always mean he has been a guard...

Sure, there was a time when he was a child and in his pre-teens when he was not a guard.  But I thought people were talking about Jamie the man walking around unescorted.  When Jamie the boy walked around he probably did have an escort because at that time he was an heir and he was relatively defenseless.  The books are unclear on that point though. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 07, 2015, 04:45:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:39:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
The books starting with him being a guard does not always mean he has been a guard...

Sure, there was a time when he was a child and in his pre-teens when he was not a guard.  But I thought people were talking about Jamie the man walking around unescorted.  When Jamie the boy walked around he probably did have an escort because at that time he was an heir and he was relatively defenseless.  The books are unclear on that point though. :P

We'll need a prequel to clear that up
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:51:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:39:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
The books starting with him being a guard does not always mean he has been a guard...

Sure, there was a time when he was a child and in his pre-teens when he was not a guard.  But I thought people were talking about Jamie the man walking around unescorted.  When Jamie the boy walked around he probably did have an escort because at that time he was an heir and he was relatively defenseless.  The books are unclear on that point though. :P

So, when you say MM is "incorrect" in asserting that he used to be an heir and wasn't always just a guard...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:51:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:39:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
The books starting with him being a guard does not always mean he has been a guard...

Sure, there was a time when he was a child and in his pre-teens when he was not a guard.  But I thought people were talking about Jamie the man walking around unescorted.  When Jamie the boy walked around he probably did have an escort because at that time he was an heir and he was relatively defenseless.  The books are unclear on that point though. :P

So, when you say MM is "incorrect" in asserting that he used to be an heir and wasn't always just a guard...

I concede that when he was a baby he was not a guard.  How context deaf is this conversation really going to get. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2015, 05:15:34 PM
Jaime is certainly not "just a guard" at any point. He is a Lannister, and the brother of the queen (or former queen), and the uncle or father of the king. He was one of the principal commanders of the Lannister armies during the war, hence his value as a hostage of Rob Stark. Rob Stark certainly never considered him "just a guard".

His life is certainly much more under threat than just some Kingsguard. He clearly has influence well beyond being some guy who guards the king, and there are plenty who might wish to do him harm as such, or kidnap him, or whatever.

Context deaf? Are you kidding? You are seriously lecturing anyone about "context" after claiming that Jaime Lannister is "just a kingsguard"?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:18:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 04:08:59 PM
Another inaccuracy Grumbler.  The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is not a member of the Small Council and in no way advises the King.  You have to ignore these distinctions for your view to have any merit.

Another inaccuracy, crazy Canuck.  The Lord Commander is a member of the small council, and is thus an adviser to the King.  You have to know the books before you can assert that your views have any merit.

Can you name any Kingsguard/Queensguard/Rainbow Guard member whatever that appears in any of the books or episodes with a bodyguard? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2015, 05:15:34 PM
Jaime is certainly not "just a guard" at any point. He is a Lannister, and the brother of the queen (or former queen), and the uncle or father of the king. He was one of the principal commanders of the Lannister armies during the war, hence his value as a hostage of Rob Stark. Rob Stark certainly never considered him "just a guard".

His life is certainly much more under threat than just some Kingsguard. He clearly has influence well beyond being some guy who guards the king, and there are plenty who might wish to do him harm as such, or kidnap him, or whatever.

Context deaf? Are you kidding? You are seriously lecturing anyone about "context" after claiming that Jaime Lannister is "just a kingsguard"?

Let's not confuse cC's quotes with others making statements about his arguments.  Leave the game of mis-quoting in order to forward intellectually dishonest arguments to cC:  he has vast experience in it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2015, 05:22:20 PM
The funny thing is that I actually agree that Selmy wandering about Mereen without a bodyguard is pretty silly. Not ridiculously so, but still kind of silly. He is a critically important figure in the government, and Mereen is known to harbor very hostile elements to the current ruler, and targeting Selmy is a clear way to effectively strike at Daenyrs. Hell, if the entire POINT of that attack was to bait out Selmy so they could kill or capture him, that would be a job well done for a budding insurgency.

But the people arguing this are doing such a bad job of it, it is hard to actually join in...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

Incorrect.  In both the Books and the show he had to renounce his inheritance to become a King's Guard.  That is the main reason his father was so upset about the decision.  From that point on he was just a guard. King Joffrey certainly didn't care too much about him. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 05:25:37 PM
Yeah, all the time he was at King's Landing, just like Barristan, he was a guard.

When Barristan left King's Landing he become an advisor to the Queen and much more than just a guard.

Not that complicated boys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 07, 2015, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Jamie has always been a guard.

He was an heir to a great house.
He's never been "just" a guard.

Incorrect.  In both the Books and the show he had to renounce his inheritance to become a King's Guard.  That is the main reason his father was so upset about the decision.  From that point on he was just a guard. King Joffrey certainly didn't care too much about him. ;)

BTW, my earlier statement is withdrawn, with apologies.  You were quoting him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:30:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 05:25:37 PM
Yeah, all the time he was at King's Landing, just like Barristan, he was a guard.

When Barristan left King's Landing he become an advisor to the Queen and much more than just a guard.

Not that complicated boys.

So you concede that he was a member of the Small Council?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 07, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
You people will argue about anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:48:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
You people will argue about anything.

Indeed.  In this case, though, cC's assertion that the show writers are "dumbing down" the story is worth discussing, even if he can't quite seem to address his contentions openly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 07, 2015, 05:57:21 PM
Languish discussion of 'Game of Thrones':

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.hollywood.com%2Fimages%2Fl%2Frevengeofthenerdsnerds.jpg&hash=d15e1e5fa1eefbf8bf5f164340e59c85e73f16e9)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 07, 2015, 06:02:18 PM
I like Yi's headband. Not sure how I feel about Garbon's fatigues.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 05:48:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
You people will argue about anything.

Indeed.  In this case, though, cC's assertion that the show writers are "dumbing down" the story is worth discussing, even if he can't quite seem to address his contentions openly.

I am not sure if you are being dishonest.  Being an asshole.  Or just dumb.  Perhaps all three.

In any event, without Seedy here you seem to be getting worse and worse. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 06:49:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 06:02:18 PM
I like Yi's headband. Not sure how I feel about Garbon's fatigues.
:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 07, 2015, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 06:09:56 PM
I am not sure if you are being dishonest.  Being an asshole.  Or just dumb.  Perhaps all three.

In any event, without Seedy here you seem to be getting worse and worse.

You haven't gotten any more honest since Seedy left, that's for sure.  If you want to challenge my arguments, some time... any time, feel free to do so.  Just don't do so on the basis of faulty "evidence" like your assertion that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard isn't on the Small Council.  And don't crop my quotes to try to make out that I am saying things that I am clearly not saying, like you did in the "Why Not Utopia" thread.  And try, every once in a while, to make arguments that aren't bald-faced ad homs, like this one.

Unless it isn't GoT that you want to discuss, in which case start a "waa, waa, grumbler is being mean and crushing my arguments" thread to whine in.  I won't post there, I promise.  You can ad hom there to your heart's content.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2015, 07:47:04 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2015, 05:25:37 PM
Yeah, all the time he was at King's Landing, just like Barristan, he was a guard.

He was a guard, but of course he was much, much more than just a guard. He was a Lannister, one of the primary military commanders, and advisor to the queen and king, a confidant of his father, the most powerful man in Westeros, etc., etc., etc.

As far as the context is concerned, he was certainly someone who was a definite target for his families enemies.

He was never, in the context of this discussion, "just a guard".

Quote

When Barristan left King's Landing he become an advisor to the Queen and much more than just a guard.


And before he left Kings Landing, *he* was much more than just a guard as well. He was one of the most famous knights of the realm, not just the guard of the king but the sometimes sword of the king. Advisor, etc., etc.

Quote

Not that complicated boys.

No kidding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 08, 2015, 08:24:34 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 07, 2015, 01:18:32 AM
Wonder where Tyrion vanishing leaves varys.

I was wondering as I watched the show whether Jorah Mormont's actions might not have served varys quite well, since it gets Tyrion to Dani without Varys himself having to go through the discomfort and danger of transporting Tyrion.  It is conceivable that Varys knew Mormont was in whatever city that was (Varys has little birdies everywhere), but I don't see any evidence that Varys orchestrated the kidnapping.  Tyrion's actions seemed all of his own free will, and Varys's objections to taking the risk seemed genuine.

Still, it is fun to think that Varys orchestrated this whole thing, improbable though that seems.  Anyone have any evidence one way or the other?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 08, 2015, 08:41:26 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 06:02:18 PM
Not sure how I feel about Garbon's fatigues.

You like them, that's what. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2015, 09:14:51 AM
That's Mono in the head band.  I look more like a Mexican.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 08, 2015, 09:18:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 08, 2015, 08:41:26 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 07, 2015, 06:02:18 PM
Not sure how I feel about Garbon's fatigues.

You like them, that's what. <_<

You're pulling off the look better than Lettow is, I'll grant you that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 08, 2015, 11:30:21 PM
So I finally saw the scene and I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone is so excited.  B was in zero danger walking the street- - the warning bells were ringing, he had a clear retreat.  The previous scene exposition explained why he would be walking alone and presumably without an escort.  He was in danger only because he deliberately sought it out.

The unsullied were ambushed by a much larger force.  My understanding from the books was that they were trained in formation fighting Roman-style and hence would not be expected to fight at peak efficiency in that situation.

The scene was a mess and poorly choreographed but I don't see the big deal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 11, 2015, 09:49:15 AM
It was nice to see Sansa smile.

There's so many things going on in this show that I actually become angry when I feel they're wasting air time. Who gives a shit about the love story between Grey Worm and Missandei?

Anyhoo, this season continues to deliver.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 10:37:25 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 08, 2015, 11:30:21 PM
He was in danger only because he deliberately sought it out.

Yes that is the point.  His duty, as he saw it, was to protect and advise the Queen.  It made no sense for him to choose to enter a fight he would likely lose just to protect unsullied.  Much more likely for him to return to the Queen to ensure she was not being threatened by the attack.  His actions join a long list of characters doing things that are inconsistent with the books and their motivations in the show.

In last night's episode we see why the writer's decided to depart from the books.  It was a short cut the writer's used to show the motivation the Queen had to deal harshly with the Masters.  I think there were other ways of doing that without departing from the books in such a significant way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 11, 2015, 11:04:00 AM
I guess that now...[spoiler]Jorah Mormont will also take over parts of Jon Connington's role, because of the greyscale?[/spoiler].

Also, it seems that things are gearing up to a big showdown in Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 11, 2015, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2015, 09:49:15 AM
Who gives a shit about the love story between Grey Worm and Missandei?

Maybe black people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 11, 2015, 12:35:34 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 11, 2015, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2015, 09:49:15 AM
Who gives a shit about the love story between Grey Worm and Missandei?

Maybe black people.

It's always about race with you Americans.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:39:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 11, 2015, 11:04:00 AM
I guess that now...[spoiler]Jorah Mormont will also take over parts of Jon Connington's role, because of the greyscale?[/spoiler].

Also, it seems that things are gearing up to a big showdown in Winterfell.

While I commend HBO for gay sex and nudity on the show, they turned one gay character (Loras) into a joke and now seem to be cutting out Connington for Jorah.  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 11, 2015, 12:43:05 PM
I think Martin made him a joke. I mean, "Knight of the Flowers?"  :lol:  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:45:44 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2015, 09:49:15 AM
It was nice to see Sansa smile.

There's so many things going on in this show that I actually become angry when I feel they're wasting air time. Who gives a shit about the love story between Grey Worm and Missandei?

Anyhoo, this season continues to deliver.

I think Missandei and Grey Worm scenes are there to give these actors something to do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:46:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 11, 2015, 12:43:05 PM
I think Martin made him a joke. I mean, "Knight of the Flowers?"  :lol:  :P

Yeah but he was more complex character in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 10:37:25 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 08, 2015, 11:30:21 PM
He was in danger only because he deliberately sought it out.

Yes that is the point.  His duty, as he saw it, was to protect and advise the Queen.  It made no sense for him to choose to enter a fight he would likely lose just to protect unsullied.  Much more likely for him to return to the Queen to ensure she was not being threatened by the attack.  His actions join a long list of characters doing things that are inconsistent with the books and their motivations in the show.

In last night's episode we see why the writer's decided to depart from the books.  It was a short cut the writer's used to show the motivation the Queen had to deal harshly with the Masters.  I think there were other ways of doing that without departing from the books in such a significant way.

This is a really outrageous reasoning - Barristan running away from danger so "he can live longer and serve his queen" would be really out of character for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:51:18 PM
I mean, his nickname is Barristan the Bold, not Barristan the Prudent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 11, 2015, 01:01:45 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 11, 2015, 09:49:15 AMThere's so many things going on in this show that I actually become angry when I feel they're wasting air time. Who gives a shit about the love story between Grey Worm and Missandei?

i like it. the scenes aren't frequent and don't last long, and it explores the personality of daenery's only real general.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 11, 2015, 01:03:13 PM
Barristan the Bashful, Selmy the Sissy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 01:07:46 PM
I love the fact that CC's "realistic behaviour" would amount to Barristan's virtual character assassination.

I bet he is also mad Ned did not do the smart thing and supported Joffrey.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 01:10:04 PM
So, havent seen the episode yet (HBO GO does not work on Spanish hotel shitty wifi) but I hear Winterfell is quickly becoming the most interesting location...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 11, 2015, 01:41:52 PM
Not that much happened in this episode. A lot of story lines were set up though, so let's see how this season continues.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 01:47:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 10:37:25 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 08, 2015, 11:30:21 PM
He was in danger only because he deliberately sought it out.

Yes that is the point.  His duty, as he saw it, was to protect and advise the Queen.  It made no sense for him to choose to enter a fight he would likely lose just to protect unsullied.  Much more likely for him to return to the Queen to ensure she was not being threatened by the attack.  His actions join a long list of characters doing things that are inconsistent with the books and their motivations in the show.

In last night's episode we see why the writer's decided to depart from the books.  It was a short cut the writer's used to show the motivation the Queen had to deal harshly with the Masters.  I think there were other ways of doing that without departing from the books in such a significant way.

This is a really outrageous reasoning - Barristan running away from danger so "he can live longer and serve his queen" would be really out of character for him.

It would be outrageous if someone was reasoning that way.  Barristan hearing the sounds of battle and hurrying back to his Queen to ensure she is safe would really be in character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 11, 2015, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 01:47:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 10:37:25 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 08, 2015, 11:30:21 PM
He was in danger only because he deliberately sought it out.

Yes that is the point.  His duty, as he saw it, was to protect and advise the Queen.  It made no sense for him to choose to enter a fight he would likely lose just to protect unsullied.  Much more likely for him to return to the Queen to ensure she was not being threatened by the attack.  His actions join a long list of characters doing things that are inconsistent with the books and their motivations in the show.

In last night's episode we see why the writer's decided to depart from the books.  It was a short cut the writer's used to show the motivation the Queen had to deal harshly with the Masters.  I think there were other ways of doing that without departing from the books in such a significant way.

This is a really outrageous reasoning - Barristan running away from danger so "he can live longer and serve his queen" would be really out of character for him.

It would be outrageous if someone was reasoning that way.  Barristan hearing the sounds of battle and hurrying back to his Queen to ensure she is safe would really be in character.

Indeed - I think either response is perfectly fine from a character standpoint.

My objection is more about him wandering about alone to begin with - I agree that he would certainly have an escort with him.

Him wandering about alone would be like Dick Cheney wandering around Baghdad alone a few months after the US takeover. Even if Cheney was a bad ass ex-Navy Seal.


Barristan would certainly have an escort. However, that would not really change the outcome of the story, so it is mostly a nit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 11, 2015, 04:01:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:51:18 PM
I mean, his nickname is Barristan the Bold, not Barristan the Prudent.

[MP] "When danger reared its ugly head . . ." [/MP]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 11, 2015, 04:14:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2015, 12:39:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 11, 2015, 11:04:00 AM
I guess that now...[spoiler]Jorah Mormont will also take over parts of Jon Connington's role, because of the greyscale?[/spoiler].

Also, it seems that things are gearing up to a big showdown in Winterfell.

While I commend HBO for gay sex and nudity on the show, they turned one gay character (Loras) into a joke and now seem to be cutting out Connington for Jorah.  <_<

What does one thing have to do with the other?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
I don't think we ever saw, or read about, a Kingsguard with an escort.  There were three of the at the Tower of Joy, during a war, and none of them had escorts.  Barriston was a Kingsguard for 38 years.  I doubt he even considered changing that practice.

Now, I think it is fair to ask why Ser Barriston had no squires (one of whom would presumably be with him in the streets of Mereen), but I think that the answer that the show skipped them for the sake of time (they are in the book) is perfectly satisfactory.  As Berkut notes, they wouldn't have saved him anyway, so this is a nit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2015, 05:53:35 PM
BTW, Iwan Rheon as Ramsey Bolton really out-did himself this episode.  I found his character kinda meh (though it had lots of potential in the creepy department, he seemed to be over-doing it) in previous episodes, but the actor out-did himself in episode 5.  I felt no impulse to fast-forward through his scenes to get to Roose in ep 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 06:34:05 PM
I suppose the gratuitous nudity used to spice up his scene worked for some viewers.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2015, 06:36:03 PM
Yeah, that gratuitous nudity bit was a new concept, for some viewers who haven't been paying any attention to the series until now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 11, 2015, 06:39:01 PM
I am not sure why it would be a new concept. They have been attempting to make his character interesting for a while now.  It finally worked for you.  Glad to hear it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2015, 06:44:08 PM
Sorry, but you can't have my argument.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:23:10 AM
Yeah, the actor really inhabits that role and I like the fact that the writers made Ramsay more complex than in the books, without making him likeable.

Btw, the actor also has a recurring role in a quaint BBC sitcom opposite Ian McKellen and Derek Jacobi.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 12, 2015, 02:29:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:23:10 AM
Btw, the actor also has a recurring role in a quaint BBC sitcom opposite Ian McKellen and Derek Jacobi.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:23:10 AM
Yeah, the actor really inhabits that role and I like the fact that the writers made Ramsay more complex than in the books, without making him likeable.

Exactly.  he had pretty much just been a stock psychotic sadist up until this point; showing him jealous and fearful makes his cruelty human, not inhuman, and thus adds depth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 12, 2015, 06:27:12 AM
Sansa's smirk when Roose Bolton shared the good news was worth the entire episode.

Pity about Jorah Mormont. He's been one of the characters I have liked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 12, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
So we gonna have the [spoiler]pig and female midget?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2015, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
So we gonna have the [spoiler]pig and female midget?[/spoiler]

We can hope not.  That whole plot element was painfully bad and over-done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 12, 2015, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2015, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
So we gonna have the [spoiler]pig and female midget?[/spoiler]

We can hope not.  That whole plot element was painfully bad and over-done.

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 12, 2015, 09:46:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 12, 2015, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2015, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
So we gonna have the [spoiler]pig and female midget?[/spoiler]

We can hope not.  That whole plot element was painfully bad and over-done.

:yes:

Easily the lowest point of the whole book series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 12, 2015, 09:47:59 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 12, 2015, 09:46:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 12, 2015, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2015, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
So we gonna have the [spoiler]pig and female midget?[/spoiler]

We can hope not.  That whole plot element was painfully bad and over-done.

:yes:

Easily the lowest point of the whole book series.

Very possibly.

What puzzled me about it when reading it was that it was kind of obviously crappy filler, and in a book that was years overdue and waaaaayyyyy overlong? Huh?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2015, 10:03:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 12, 2015, 09:47:59 AM
Very possibly.

What puzzled me about it when reading it was that it was kind of obviously crappy filler, and in a book that was years overdue and waaaaayyyyy overlong? Huh?

I've hypothesized before that martin is a lazy writer who has the power and ego to keep weak editors from improving his work.  The persistence of such crappy scenes and writing is a testament to bad editing, not bad necessarily writing.  All writer include awkward or irrelevant material in their writing.  Only bad editors allow that material to make it into print.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:23:04 PM
Watching the episode, and the "plot" Brienne put together with the locals, I can see how the entire Winterfell seems to be following the Ned Stark School of Intrigue. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:24:25 PM
Also as some recapper pointed out, Ramsay and Myranda may have issues, but they work through them. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:33:35 PM
I'm really loving Sansa through and through in this season. She has graduated from one of my least liked characters on the show to one of the most favourite. I just hope this is not setting her up for another "abused by a psycho" trope.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 02:40:27 PM
This is probably my favourite episode this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 02:48:39 PM
 :lol:  Why'd you stop posting Marty?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 12, 2015, 02:50:15 PM
Watching those who have the greyscale... it just creeps me out completely. And not a lot does that.  :ph34r:
Must be my irrational fear of reptiles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2015, 03:00:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 12, 2015, 02:48:39 PM
:lol:  Why'd you stop posting Marty?
:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2015, 03:07:55 PM
Yes... I echo what I said last time...they nerfed Valyria.
And the whole world seems so much smaller and safer that Mormont can cross half of it in his little boat so easily.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 13, 2015, 02:51:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2015, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PMI've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

you've seen no indication that a rebellious organization that attacks soldiers via traps has no significant combat training?

Quote from: crazy canuckThe most important man in the city walking about without an armed escort when the Sons of the Harpy are on a killing spree?  Another example of the writers of the show taking sloppy short cuts.  Now that they have moved well outside the narrative of the books they are not telling a very compelling story.

has an important man ever walked the streets alone without an armed escort and been killed as a result? also, he did not know the sons were on a killing spree because his reactions when the bells rang and people were screaming indicates that. his first reaction was to go help, which is very fitting with the character shown on television.

So are you saying Danny is Hillary and this is her Benghazi?

At this point, what difference does it make?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 13, 2015, 02:53:10 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 13, 2015, 02:51:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 06, 2015, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 06, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2015, 01:25:21 PMI've seen no indication that the Sons of the Harpy have any significant combat training.

you've seen no indication that a rebellious organization that attacks soldiers via traps has no significant combat training?

Quote from: crazy canuckThe most important man in the city walking about without an armed escort when the Sons of the Harpy are on a killing spree?  Another example of the writers of the show taking sloppy short cuts.  Now that they have moved well outside the narrative of the books they are not telling a very compelling story.

has an important man ever walked the streets alone without an armed escort and been killed as a result? also, he did not know the sons were on a killing spree because his reactions when the bells rang and people were screaming indicates that. his first reaction was to go help, which is very fitting with the character shown on television.

So are you saying Danny is Hillary and this is her Benghazi?

At this point, what difference does it make?


None?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:32:21 AM
Decent episode last night, althought not as good as the previous one. Sadly, the Sand Snakes consistently seem to be the weakest part of the show right now, imo.

Having read a couple of reviews, what surprises me though is a general outcry about Sansa's marital night rape scene. I mean, what were these people expecting? We knew what Ramsay is capable of and it was pretty certain he will want to consummate the marriage the first moment he can even if he wasn't a psychopathic bastard - the show made a lot of talking how Sansa was never married to Tyrion in the eyes of law as their marriage was not consummated. In fact, given what we were given by Ramsay previously, I thought this could have been much worse for Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 18, 2015, 07:55:18 AM
My wild prediction for TV Tyrion: [spoiler]He will become the show's version of Quentyn Martell, except successful. Dany will throw him to the dragons to be eaten, and instead they will like him. Possibly confirming him as a secret Targaryen.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 18, 2015, 09:19:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:32:21 AM
Decent episode last night, althought not as good as the previous one. Sadly, the Sand Snakes consistently seem to be the weakest part of the show right now, imo.

Having read a couple of reviews, what surprises me though is a general outcry about Sansa's marital night rape scene. I mean, what were these people expecting? We knew what Ramsay is capable of and it was pretty certain he will want to consummate the marriage the first moment he can even if he wasn't a psychopathic bastard - the show made a lot of talking how Sansa was never married to Tyrion in the eyes of law as their marriage was not consummated. In fact, given what we were given by Ramsay previously, I thought this could have been much worse for Sansa.

I don't know, but I imagine it's because it's much less often displayed on television than murder and as such still feels very violent and appalling. I mean, watch Irreversible and tell me witch scene made you most sick.

Also, here it's probably exacerbated due to Sansa's purity and function as being one of the very last hopes of a happy ending for the family we started out with.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 09:22:42 AM
What strikes me about the TV series, is how much attention the general viewer is supposed to have paid to "get" everything that's going on.

Just to make sure I did, I re-watched season one and two. Varys' conspiracy is foreshadowed in season one. I totally missed that when watching season four.  :Embarrass:


Liep, the only happy ending for Sansa I can see is her giving Ramsay handjobs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 18, 2015, 09:23:56 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 09:22:42 AM

Liep, the only happy ending for Sansa I can see is her giving Ramsay handjobs.

When I pressed "Post" I knew I should've used a different phrasing. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 09:22:42 AM
Varys' conspiracy is foreshadowed in season one.

Please elaborate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 09:30:15 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 09:22:42 AM
Varys' conspiracy is foreshadowed in season one.

Please elaborate.

Arya Stark is exploring the Red Keep with the dragons' heads and sees and hears Varys speak with someone in secret. It's after king Robert's untimely demise and the gist of it was that "they" needed to act quickly.

What confuses me the most, really is Littlefinger's agenda. He's been all over the place for four and a half season now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 09:30:15 AM
Arya Stark is exploring the Red Keep with the dragons' heads and sees and hears Varys speak with someone in secret. It's after king Robert's untimely demise and the gist of it was that "they" needed to act quickly.

What confuses me the most, really is Littlefinger's agenda. He's been all over the place for four and a half season now.

I thought the first was consistent with Varys' stated agenda of maintaining order.

Littlefinger I see as an opportunist: maximize wealth and power by any means necessary while avoiding death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 09:34:24 AM
I think Littlefinger doesn't have a Grand Plan (tm) per se - he is just an opportunist that grabs any occasion that presents itself to him.

For example, I am not sure that he planned from the beginning to betray both Stannis and the Boltons to Cersei the way he did in the last episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 09:35:50 AM
I think LF is playing a double game with Cersei.  It would be very out of character for him to do anything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 09:34:24 AM
I think Littlefinger doesn't have a Grand Plan (tm) per se - he is just an opportunist that grabs any occasion that presents itself to him.

For example, I am not sure that he planned from the beginning to betray both Stannis and the Boltons to Cersei the way he did in the last episode.

His Grand Plan, I guess, went to pot when Catelyn Stark died.
I suppose he also suffers from having been pointed at and laughed at all his life.

Some characters become more likeable, like Jaime (who was a right c-nut in the first season), but some just stay the same like Cersei.
Tyrion, for some reason, strikes me as the most typical human of the entire cast. Getting a bit tired of Danaerys, though. Those eyebrows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 10:41:09 AM
I liked Bronn's quip when Jaime says he will improvise, by the way. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 10:45:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 10:41:09 AM
I liked Bronn's quip when Jaime says he will improvise, by the way. :D

Now there's a character.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 10:50:53 AM
The sand snake scene did not work that well.  First, the sand snakes came off as kind of ridiculous.  Second, the length of time it took for Axeman and his posse to show up--in the middle of the Dornish capitol--was just a little too convenient.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 10:50:53 AM
The sand snake scene did not work that well.  First, the sand snakes came off as kind of ridiculous.  Second, the length of time it took for Axeman and his posse to show up--in the middle of the Dornish capitol--was just a little too convenient.

Yeah. Likewise Jaime and Bronn making their way unopposed just to where Trystane and Myrcella were located looked weird. The whole scene looked rushed and it seemed like they ran out of time to show it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 11:55:19 AM
Sansa's scene could be summed up in "Lie back and think of Winterfell". It could have been worse. It was worse in the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 12:12:14 PM
Am I vegging out?  I thought only fake Sansa went to Winterfell in the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 12:12:14 PM
Am I vegging out?  I thought only fake Sansa went to Winterfell in the book.

Fake Arya. I am not sure what The Larch is thinking about here. But there are a few Sansa chapters Martin has released out there from the next book so maybe it is from those. I tend to not read those.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 12:52:36 PM
I meant the equivalent scene with the fake Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 12:56:41 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 12:52:36 PM
I meant the equivalent scene with the fake Arya.

Ah. Ok I gotcha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 02:50:56 PM
"Put the pen down, darling. We both know you are not writing anything." is the best line of the episode. Especially as a call back to the scene between Tywin and Olenna in season 4.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2015, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:32:21 AM
Sadly, the Sand Snakes consistently seem to be the weakest part of the show right now, imo.

They are far from the strongest part of the books, either.  Though strong competition for that honor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2015, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 02:50:56 PM
"Put the pen down, darling. We both know you are not writing anything." is the best line of the episode. Especially as a call back to the scene between Tywin and Olenna in season 4.  :lol:

Nah...surprised you, especially, didn't pick out the best line of the episode:

"The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:34:06 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 18, 2015, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 02:50:56 PM
"Put the pen down, darling. We both know you are not writing anything." is the best line of the episode. Especially as a call back to the scene between Tywin and Olenna in season 4.  :lol:

Nah...surprised you, especially, didn't pick out the best line of the episode:

"The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant."

Sorry, strong bitchy divas beat cock merchants in 10 cases out of 10 in any self-respecting gay man's book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
Gotta go with Jo Jo.  Especially because Diana Riggs weanied out at the end of that scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 03:40:41 PM
I wonder what a cock merchant's storefront looks like.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 18, 2015, 03:43:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:34:06 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 18, 2015, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 02:50:56 PM
"Put the pen down, darling. We both know you are not writing anything." is the best line of the episode. Especially as a call back to the scene between Tywin and Olenna in season 4.  :lol:

Nah...surprised you, especially, didn't pick out the best line of the episode:

"The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant."

Sorry, strong bitchy divas beat cock merchants in 10 cases out of 10 in any self-respecting gay man's book.
Being gay is more about cock though. :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:46:55 PM
I never was that crazy about a cock.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 03:47:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:46:55 PM
I never was that crazy about a cock.

Self-respecting gay men prefer a foot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 03:49:12 PM
A foot of cock? You must be insane.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 18, 2015, 03:56:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2015, 03:46:55 PM
I never was that crazy about a cock.

Then don't claim to speak for most gay men? :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 18, 2015, 04:08:14 PM
The arya story is really beginning to pull ahead :)
But no bran :angry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 18, 2015, 04:11:02 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 18, 2015, 04:08:14 PM
But no bran :angry:

No Bran indeed. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 04:32:55 PM
I myself prefer the following exchange between Bronn and Jaime as best lines of the episode:

- What do we do once we get there?
- I like to improvise.
- Explains the golden hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2015, 04:48:18 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 04:32:55 PM
I myself prefer the following exchange between Bronn and Jaime as best lines of the episode:

- What do we do once we get there?
- I like to improvise.
- Explains the golden hand.

Yeah, that was pretty good. But required three lines. The cock line, was just a one liner. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 04:52:01 PM
Well, the whole scene smacked of improvisation.
They've laboured long and hard to reach Dorne, yet can walk into the Water Gardens unopposed. And Mycella is there, of course.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 18, 2015, 05:02:07 PM
The Sand Snakes fight is up there amongst the worst in the whole series.  I agree that it was ridiculously set up and then ridiculously shot (they really need to get a fight choreographer that doesn't rely on silly spinning and wild slashing for "excitement" - and the whip?  PUH-LEASE). I would note that it was at the Watergarden, not the capital, and that the intervention of Captain Axe was not really delayed - he was probably letting everyone thoroughly noose themselves should Doran decide to go that way. 

I'll go with the Bron line as the best.  The cock merchant line came after a much longer setup than the golden hand line.  Tyrion's "guess again" was also a good line in the latter conversation.  Oleanna's "what veil?" line was pretty good, to.

The whole of the Sansa bath scene seemed a waste of time, though.  They could have used that time to set up the fight at the Watergarden more reasonably, it seems to me, and Sansa would already know about Ramsey from Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 18, 2015, 05:04:57 PM
Quote from: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 04:52:01 PM
Well, the whole scene smacked of improvisation.
They've laboured long and hard to reach Dorne, yet can walk into the Water Gardens unopposed. And Mycella is there, of course.

Agreed.  There could have been a short scene where they find out where Mycella is (maybe go to the capital first). 

Tyrion and Jorah's capture was also clumsily done.  How, exactly, do they not see all those slavers until they are on top of them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 18, 2015, 05:12:56 PM
I'm pretty sure the water gardens have been talked of a lot in previous episodes.
And isn't it quite known that the Martells spend most of their time their these days due to their head's troubles?

But yes. Some bits feel a bit rushed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 18, 2015, 06:01:25 PM
It's not really a criticism, more just acceptance of the fact that the writers have so much ground to cover and in a fairly short amount of time. Which makes the endless scenes with Bran more and more unexplainable.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 06:05:39 PM
Clearly Bran is going to use his Jedi mind tricks to control the ice zombies and kick some Lannister ass.  Duh.

Then Daenarys is going to decide that her true calling is ruling over the Easternites, and give up her quest for the Iron Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 06:59:03 PM
Apparently the Sansa scene has created enough reaction and backlash for a women's nerd website (The Mary Sue) to formally announce that they're going to stop covering Game of Thrones.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 06:59:03 PM
Apparently the Sansa scene has created enough reaction and backlash for a women's nerd website (The Mary Sue) to formally announce that they're going to stop covering Game of Thrones.  :huh:

Like that's the worst thing Bolton's done. Women...sheesh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 07:02:58 PM
So rape is bad but shooting four crossbow bolts into a chick is OK.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 07:09:47 PM
In case somebody wants to read their reasoning:

http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/ (http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 18, 2015, 07:26:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 07:09:47 PM
In case somebody wants to read their reasoning:

http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/ (http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/)

I think that their reasoning is fine, for them, but I don't buy it overall.  The show's choices were to have the rape take place offscreen, in which case none of the objections change, or else not have it happen at all, in which case the Ramsey character gets gutted as the evil guy who we really, really want to see go down.  The argument that the scene shows more of Theon's face than Sansa's is a non-issue; the rape is actually more horrific this way, and what's poor Sophie Turner going to do differently if the scene stays on her face? 

The argument that this scene doesn't impact Sansa's character and so is gratuitous also doesn't fly given that it is the very last scene we see.  I'm betting that she changes a lot, in ways that advance the plot, from this horror.

So, they can drop coverage, for reasons sufficient onto them, and I won't say they are wrong.  I will say i don't really care that they stop covering it, since I haven't even noticed their coverage to this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 07:36:27 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 07:09:47 PM
In case somebody wants to read their reasoning:

http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/ (http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/)

That's some retarded shit, sir.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 18, 2015, 07:43:56 PM
I tried to get past the second paragraph, but couldn't. And as an editor, i read a lot of shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 07:56:05 PM
The text makes zero sense.  You don't engage in a political act over issues of character development and plotting.

The subtext I'm picking up is that the writer wants us to consider rape to be such a horrible, shocking, traumatizing concept that it should never been shown in a movie.  Or discussed.   Or said out loud.  Or thought about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 08:00:43 PM
Either that or she is a HUGE Sansa fan.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 08:02:49 PM
Just one more post before someone else does and I've pulled a Marty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 08:03:09 PM
Done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 18, 2015, 08:08:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 08:02:49 PM
Just one more post before someone else does and I've pulled a Marty.
:unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 18, 2015, 08:17:09 PM
Martinus has a habit of making a ton of connected ideas into a long string of posts rather than a single one.  And having no one respond in-between, because he posts them back to back in a short time frame.

:themoryouknow:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 12:37:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 18, 2015, 04:11:02 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 18, 2015, 04:08:14 PM
But no bran :angry:

No Bran indeed. :)

Someone's gonna get constipated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 12:42:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 18, 2015, 07:09:47 PM
In case somebody wants to read their reasoning:

http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/ (http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/)

I was actually going to start a thread about that particular backlash - it seems to me that in this day and age rape is suddenly becoming the worst crime imaginable. This is retarded. Sure, it is a serious crime and there used to be a history of it being dismissed or smudged by blaming the victim - but there are many crimes, such as murder or extended torture, that are much worse.

I have seen one reviewer say that what happened to Sansa in that scene is the worst ordeal that has happened to any character on the show so far. What the fuck?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 12:46:03 AM
By the way, it's not that I am becoming more conservative in my dotage, but seeing what they are up to these days, I am coming to a conclusion that university campuses should be cleansed in a nuclear fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 19, 2015, 02:20:57 AM
Let's see how that Sansa scene continues. Theon looked like he might snap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 19, 2015, 02:31:31 AM
I was suspecting he would snap and attack Ramsay (boy it must suck to be from Bolton these days. Well. More than usual) but.... He didn't. It seems to have been setup to make us think he would only for him to just stand there, a way to underline his messed up state, albeit a bit late in the day.
I wonder where they will go with him since it seems the book direction is off the table

QuoteI have seen one reviewer say that what happened to Sansa in that scene is the worst ordeal that has happened to any character on the show so far. What the fuck?
and with clear evidence to the contrary standing in the same room :rolleyes:
Feminazis wouldn't be so bad if they weren't infecting others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:57:07 AM
Yeah. I mean, compared to what happened to Theon, Ros, Tansy (I think was the name of the girl torn apart by hounds), a bunch of unnamed slaves in Astapor, Viserys, Oberyn, Talyssa, Robb, Catelyn, Mycah the Miller's Boy, guy eaten alive by dragons and a bunch of other people referred to offscreen or historically (Ellaria Martell anyone?), I'd much rather get raped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
Another favourite: apparently, "the worst thing imaginable happened to Sansa" in that scene. No it didn't. In fact, much worse things imaginable could happen to her from the same guy in the room.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 19, 2015, 05:29:00 AM
Something that really puzzled me was the text mentioning the trigger warning for sexual assault and the links to a support organization for victims before the spoiler warning. Is this something done seriously in many places nowadays? It's been literally the first time I've seen it in an article. I guess that these kind of websites are not in my internet neighbourhood, so to speak.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 05:30:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 19, 2015, 05:29:00 AM
Something that really puzzled me was the text mentioning the trigger warning for sexual assault and the links to a support organization for victims before the spoiler warning. Is this something done seriously in many places nowadays? It's been literally the first time I've seen it in an article. I guess that these kind of websites are not in my internet neighbourhood, so to speak.

Yeah, that's the THERE BE DRAGONS of crazy neighbourhood of Internet, I reckon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 19, 2015, 08:01:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 12:42:21 AM
I have seen one reviewer say that what happened to Sansa in that scene is the worst ordeal that has happened to any character on the show so far. What the fuck?
That's bizarre.  She wasn't even really raped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 19, 2015, 08:10:35 AM
Yeah ok if anybody who was thinking about raping me ever decides to have a bit of mercy and simply murder, torture, or mutilate me let me just assure you I can take the rape. Don't go soft on me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: frunk on May 19, 2015, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
Another favourite: apparently, "the worst thing imaginable happened to Sansa" in that scene. No it didn't. In fact, much worse things imaginable could happen to her from the same guy in the room.

The problem isn't a lack of perspective, it's a lack of imagination.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 19, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
I think the problem with the Sansa scene is the show's need to simplify the storyline by collapsing characters into a limited cast.  This doesn't happen to the Sansa of the books and for good reason.  There is instead a fake female stark who has to endure the Boltons.  It is perhaps the most jolting of the many ways in which the show diverges from the books. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 19, 2015, 01:28:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
I think the problem with the Sansa scene is the show's need to simplify the storyline by collapsing characters into a limited cast.  This doesn't happen to the Sansa of the books and for good reason.

I think something similar is almost certainly in the cards for the next book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: frunk on May 19, 2015, 02:20:41 PM
How is it better (presuming it is the worst possible crime ever) if it happens to someone else?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 19, 2015, 02:45:18 PM
Quote from: frunk on May 19, 2015, 02:20:41 PM
How is it better (presuming it is the worst possible crime ever) if it happens to someone else?

If that was directed at me, it isn't better.  Lots of terrible things happen.  But it is jarring when the show is in conflict with what happens in the books. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2015, 02:45:18 PM
Quote from: frunk on May 19, 2015, 02:20:41 PM
How is it better (presuming it is the worst possible crime ever) if it happens to someone else?

If that was directed at me, it isn't better.  Lots of terrible things happen.  But it is jarring when the show is in conflict with what happens in the books.

That doesn't compute as a lot of backlash is from people who did not read the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 22, 2015, 07:05:27 AM
Game of Thrones - The Musical

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs7xO5P3Az4

Amusing. I think my favourite was Emilia Clarke's "Rastafarian Targaryen".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 22, 2015, 10:42:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 19, 2015, 02:45:18 PM
Quote from: frunk on May 19, 2015, 02:20:41 PM
How is it better (presuming it is the worst possible crime ever) if it happens to someone else?

If that was directed at me, it isn't better.  Lots of terrible things happen.  But it is jarring when the show is in conflict with what happens in the books.

That doesn't compute as a lot of backlash is from people who did not read the books.

I was talking about what I found problematic about the scene. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2015, 11:18:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:48:35 PM
That doesn't compute as a lot of backlash is from people who did not read the books.

there are still a lot of people, though, who don't grasp the difference between TV and books.  Personally, I thought the whole Jeyne Poole thing in the books silly and contrived.  Far too many people knew she was a fake for the Boltons to have any hope of using her to gain loyalty in the North, and torturing the woman they claimed was Arya Stark (but who was three years older than Arya) wasn't going to gain them anything, anyway.

I guess that whole subplot would make sense if Martin was getting paid by the word, but he wasn't, so it doesn't make sense.  It wasn't "jarring" but it doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 22, 2015, 11:31:10 AM
i bet there's a writer that's glad they cut out the dog rape
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 22, 2015, 10:22:12 PM
Quite a few viewers as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on May 23, 2015, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
Another favourite: apparently, "the worst thing imaginable happened to Sansa" in that scene. No it didn't. In fact, much worse things imaginable could happen to her from the same guy in the room.

The Victorians would have called it "a fate worse than death" and that view was rightly ridiculed in my youth, now it seems to have returned as a concept in certain "progressive" groups  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: frunk on May 23, 2015, 07:56:24 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 23, 2015, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
Another favourite: apparently, "the worst thing imaginable happened to Sansa" in that scene. No it didn't. In fact, much worse things imaginable could happen to her from the same guy in the room.

The Victorians would have called it "a fate worse than death" and that view was rightly ridiculed in my youth, now it seems to have returned as a concept in certain "progressive" groups  :hmm:

It also doesn't seem that far from honor killings or ostracism.  "If it's the worst thing that can happen, better to remove you from society than to let you return to normal."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 23, 2015, 11:07:37 AM
Quote from: frunk on May 23, 2015, 07:56:24 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 23, 2015, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
Another favourite: apparently, "the worst thing imaginable happened to Sansa" in that scene. No it didn't. In fact, much worse things imaginable could happen to her from the same guy in the room.

The Victorians would have called it "a fate worse than death" and that view was rightly ridiculed in my youth, now it seems to have returned as a concept in certain "progressive" groups  :hmm:

It also doesn't seem that far from honor killings or ostracism.  "If it's the worst thing that can happen, better to remove you from society than to let you return to normal."

Apart from the whole fact that no one is advocating killing rape victims. :wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 23, 2015, 11:18:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2015, 11:07:37 AM
Quote from: frunk on May 23, 2015, 07:56:24 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 23, 2015, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
Another favourite: apparently, "the worst thing imaginable happened to Sansa" in that scene. No it didn't. In fact, much worse things imaginable could happen to her from the same guy in the room.

The Victorians would have called it "a fate worse than death" and that view was rightly ridiculed in my youth, now it seems to have returned as a concept in certain "progressive" groups  :hmm:

It also doesn't seem that far from honor killings or ostracism.  "If it's the worst thing that can happen, better to remove you from society than to let you return to normal."

Apart from the whole fact that no one is advocating killing rape victims. :wacko:

No one? Not quite. One plucky village in Iran refuses to surrender to common sense.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa299%2FSlayhem%2Fvillage_asterix_zpsom4inkjk.jpg&hash=1604ed7287570ade18599b6d4fdd4b6dd8ebf26c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2015, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2015, 11:07:37 AM
Apart from the whole fact that no one is advocating killing rape victims. :wacko:

I'm not sure what the joke is, here.  There are wackos who not only advocate killing rape victims, but do in fact murder them.  It is unclear to me whether you are unaware of this rather well-publicized fact, or are aware of it but pretending not to be for some humorous effect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on May 23, 2015, 04:37:12 PM
I've been no fan of the books, and accept the TV series as an independent work of art.

If you marry Ramsay Bolton, you're in for a rough time, and what better way to show it than the wedding night scene.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 23, 2015, 05:51:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 23, 2015, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2015, 11:07:37 AM
Apart from the whole fact that no one is advocating killing rape victims. :wacko:

I'm not sure what the joke is, here.  There are wackos who not only advocate killing rape victims, but do in fact murder them.  It is unclear to me whether you are unaware of this rather well-publicized fact, or are aware of it but pretending not to be for some humorous effect.

There is no joke. Said progressives were compared to those committing honour killings. Said progressives do not advocate death even though they do champion permanent/semi-permanent victimhood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2015, 08:04:10 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2015, 05:51:11 PM
There is no joke. Said progressives were compared to those committing honour killings. Said progressives do not advocate death even though they do champion permanent/semi-permanent victimhood.

Ah.  You were using "no one" in a more specialized way than I read.  nvm then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 23, 2015, 08:10:40 PM
I finally watched the rape scene. I did not get an erection. F
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2015, 12:33:23 AM
Well, I sure didn't expect the itty bitty sand snake to give up the goods like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 25, 2015, 07:46:22 AM
Indeed. I will never look at a snake the same way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 25, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
I hope Ramsay gets his comeuppance this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 25, 2015, 11:56:35 AM
We will probably see minor vengeance against Ramsay, but I'm pretty sure he won't bite it until next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 25, 2015, 12:29:15 PM
I thought as much before but today confirms it: short haired sand snake is super hot.

The seven prove interesting. They're launching a full fledged commie-fundie-coup.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 25, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 25, 2015, 12:29:15 PM
The seven prove interesting. They're launching a full fledged commie-fundie-coup.

That's just their followers. The seven haven't done squat. At least R'hllor killed Renly. :pope:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 25, 2015, 01:21:27 PM
I really liked this episode. Since we are now pretty much out of the books-woods, I catch myself thinking that the bad guys are finally getting their comeuppance - but this show has crushed hopes so many times already I don't know...

Good for Sam for finally getting some.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 26, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
A comment that really stood out to be- Myrcella saying "Dorne is my home, I've lived here for years".
Perfectly possible she was using a figure of speech but.... Hmm... I do wonder. Have they sped up the timeline of the tv show?
If so- interesting they fit the earlier, more sensible plans for the books. Though despite it working for some plot lines it does make others such as Bran (where is he!!!!!) look a bit odd.

With the Loras the buggerer plot...
1: I wonder what happens to the guy who grassed him up? That he would confess like that.... Sure, maybe the faith are just after the big guns and don't really believe in justice for all. But it seems not so fitting from what we've seen so far.
2: it is interesting that this plot line has developed in such a way considering it fits very nicely with the earlier tv show change of making LorasXRenly much more explicit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 12:45:47 AM
When talking to Cersei, High Sparrow says that those who show penance and contrition are given Mother's mercy instead of Father's justice. Given that Olyvar's testimony was that he was Loras's squire and was coerced by him into buggery - and then he actually gives the testimony which is bound to count for something - it is quite clear why he got off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 26, 2015, 01:03:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.

Also a 19 year-old actress.  I feel dirty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 26, 2015, 01:08:04 AM
http://i.imgur.com/4q7pYgR.gifv

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 26, 2015, 01:12:30 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9sw5ZyS.jpg&hash=3f3000359ff3c5bd4eebd9b0ace7774ea3676fae)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 26, 2015, 03:39:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 26, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
A comment that really stood out to be- Myrcella saying "Dorne is my home, I've lived here for years".
Perfectly possible she was using a figure of speech but.... Hmm... I do wonder. Have they sped up the timeline of the tv show?
If so- interesting they fit the earlier, more sensible plans for the books. Though despite it working for some plot lines it does make others such as Bran (where is he!!!!!) look a bit odd.

It's no figure of speech, she has actually been away from King's Landing for years. When was she shipped away, in the 2nd season, right? We're in the 5th, so she has been living in Dorne for a good 2-3 year period already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Pedrito on May 26, 2015, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.
These are pretty normal tits for a 19 years old, simply we are not used to them anymore Because we don't see them in RL since decades.
We're getting old.  :(

L.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 26, 2015, 09:11:01 AM
Is each season supposed to be one year, though? In the books, I'm not sure how long she's been in Dorne. Has it been "years"?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 26, 2015, 11:25:04 AM
She's been in Dorne for less than 2 years in the books, I think. If more time is passing in the show, it would also explain the Stark children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
I have to say that so far I am very dissapointed in Sansa. She is still almost completely passive, and totally reliant on trying to sweet talk someone else into doing anything for her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 26, 2015, 12:55:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
I have to say that so far I am very dissapointed in Sansa. She is still almost completely passive, and totally reliant on trying to sweet talk someone else into doing anything for her.

It is why she is still alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 01:00:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2015, 12:55:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
I have to say that so far I am very dissapointed in Sansa. She is still almost completely passive, and totally reliant on trying to sweet talk someone else into doing anything for her.

It is why she is still alive.

No, when you are totally passive you are still alive because the non-passive people find you being alive useful in some fashion. If she wants to be a pawn for everyone else forever, then fine, although her current situation doesn't really lend itself to a long life. Ramsy Bolton is no Tyrion Lannister. Rather she has gone from being promised to the one person in Westeros actually worse than Joffrey...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 26, 2015, 01:02:53 PM
Yeah, Show Sansa seems even dumber than Book Sansa on account of having married that creep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 01:04:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 26, 2015, 01:02:53 PM
Yeah, Show Sansa seems even dumber than Book Sansa on account of having married that creep.

Both book Sansa and show Sansa grew out of her initial naïve view of the world.  But show Sansa seems to have forgotten how much power she held over Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 01:27:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 01:04:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 26, 2015, 01:02:53 PM
Yeah, Show Sansa seems even dumber than Book Sansa on account of having married that creep.

Both book Sansa and show Sansa grew out of her initial naïve view of the world.  But show Sansa seems to have forgotten how much power she held over Littlefinger.

Indeed. It is like she has taken this giant step backwards.

I suspect it is just a blip, but it seems kind of odd. I mean, she married Ramsey, she knew what she was getting into, and now she seems at a loss for what to do about it. Why did she marry him at all, if she had no plan to handle him in some fashion?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 26, 2015, 01:28:38 PM
She hasn't forgotten, she doesn't understand that it's a power over more than just Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 02:18:31 PM
Besides, Sansa is still finding her way around Ramsay because he is just so much worse than Littlefinger. I hope she finds it by the season's end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 26, 2015, 02:18:46 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on May 26, 2015, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.
These are pretty normal tits for a 19 years old, simply we are not used to them anymore Because we don't see them in RL since decades.
We're getting old.  :(

L.

I'm not that far away and I've only once seen their like.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 02:19:17 PM
Also, I love Myrcella telling Jaime he looks different. Unlike her.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 02:33:28 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 26, 2015, 02:18:46 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on May 26, 2015, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.
These are pretty normal tits for a 19 years old, simply we are not used to them anymore Because we don't see them in RL since decades.
We're getting old.  :(

L.

I'm not that far away and I've only once seen their like.

Which makes sense. If you are making a movie, and one the primary jobs of the actress is "Have an amazing set of knockers" one would expect to get an amazing set of knockers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 26, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
HBO is very consistent in finding amazing-looking women to play their nude roles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 02:40:18 PM
I also dispute the fact that Sansa is dumb. She tries to use the help of a local woman - and she gets flayed by Ramsay. She tries to recruit Reek - and he goes to Ramsay. So she picks up a cork screw while allowing herself a small luxury (or is it simply a way for her hope to survive in this bleak situation) of taking Ramsay down a notch through her veiled barb.

She knows her options are few as she is looking for them in a situation that seems quite dire. That does not make her passive - more like clever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 02:45:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 02:40:18 PM
I also dispute the fact that Sansa is dumb. She tries to use the help of a local woman - and she gets flayed by Ramsay. She tries to recruit Reek - and he goes to Ramsay. So she picks up a cork screw while allowing herself a small luxury (or is it simply a way for her hope to survive in this bleak situation) of taking Ramsay down a notch through her veiled barb.

She knows her options are few as she is looking for them in a situation that seems quite dire. That does not make her passive - more like clever.

I am saying, however, that she really fucked up if she got herself into this situation (allowed it to happen) without a plan better than what we've seen so far, which seems to be:

1. Hope Ramsay isn't so bad.
2. If #1 doesn't work out, see about having the old lady get in touch with someone who can save me.

Either way, she is completely passive and reactive. I was hoping that she went into the marriage with some idea of what was likely to happen, and how she was going to deal with it - which may still be the case, after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2015, 03:07:44 PM
I would bet real money little snake's tits are not the same ones she was born with.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 26, 2015, 03:12:38 PM
Yeah, I think you guys are way jumping the gun by giving up on Sansa so soon.  I dare say she has a plan, but has to time it perfectly.  I'll also predict that it doesn't completely work, but that Brienne (and Reek?) jumps in to make it work well enough.  Sansa is new to the Game of Thrones, and so she doesn't know how to avoid all the bumps, but she's getting there.

It is Arya's plot I can't figure out.  Who or what is she being set up to kill?  Dragons?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 26, 2015, 03:56:29 PM
Sansa's still going along with Littlefinger's plan--which is to wait for Stannis to take Winterfell and name her Lady of the North--right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 26, 2015, 03:56:29 PM
Sansa's still going along with Littlefinger's plan--which is to wait for Stannis to take Winterfell and name her Lady of the North--right?

No need for Sansa to marry Bolton to wait for that to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 04:34:33 PM
Do you think Sansa has much choice in refusing to marry Ramsay? In times like this I wonder if we are even watching the same show...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 26, 2015, 04:34:56 PM
We have benefit of knowing Ransay is sick, did either little finger or Sansa know? Sansa's problem, like her father before her, is that she trusts the wrong people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 26, 2015, 04:37:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 04:34:33 PM
Do you think Sansa has much choice in refusing to marry Ramsay? In times like this I wonder if we are even watching the same show...

She had the choice not to go to Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:39:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 04:34:33 PM
Do you think Sansa has much choice in refusing to marry Ramsay? In times like this I wonder if we are even watching the same show...

Yes, she had the choice whether to go down to meet with him in the first place.  I think we are watching the same show. Its just that your memory seems to fade with each episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:41:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 26, 2015, 04:34:56 PM
We have benefit of knowing Ransay is sick, did either little finger or Sansa know? Sansa's problem, like her father before her, is that she trusts the wrong people.

She knows that an army is coming south.  An army which would probably defeat the Boltons and be friendly to her.  Littlefinger is playing both ends.  There was no need to Sansa to do so as well. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 26, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:41:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 26, 2015, 04:34:56 PM
We have benefit of knowing Ransay is sick, did either little finger or Sansa know? Sansa's problem, like her father before her, is that she trusts the wrong people.

She knows that an army is coming south.  An army which would probably defeat the Boltons and be friendly to her.  Littlefinger is playing both ends.  There was no need to Sansa to do so as well. 
but why not marry Bolton and wait it out? By marrying him she secured her place. If stannis loses like he keeps doing (save versus the wildlings) she's still secure as wardeness of the north. If she made a run for it the Boltons or a bannerman could have captured her and brought her back and forced her to marry. She already has one unconsummated marriage, why not two? She makes bad decisions in the series, true, but marrying Ramsay with the knowledge she has wasnt a horrible decision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 26, 2015, 05:00:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:39:01 PMYes, she had the choice whether to go down to meet with him in the first place.  I think we are watching the same show. Its just that your memory seems to fade with each episode.

sansa is sixteen~ and basically had one person she thought she could trust, littlefinger. littlefinger gives her a spiel about how great an opportunity this is, etc. she's been in bad situations before and probably felt like she could handle ramsay. sansa straight up got played by littlefinger. this all makes sense from what we know about sansa.

now, what happens next is anyone's guess. sansa's years of experience with this kinda stuff could culminate in her achieving a victory on her own, or she could continue being a pawn. either way, you can dislike the plotline all you want, but to argue it makes little sense is silly. it makes sense, and we'll just have to see how it plays out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 05:02:20 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 26, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:41:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 26, 2015, 04:34:56 PM
We have benefit of knowing Ransay is sick, did either little finger or Sansa know? Sansa's problem, like her father before her, is that she trusts the wrong people.

She knows that an army is coming south.  An army which would probably defeat the Boltons and be friendly to her.  Littlefinger is playing both ends.  There was no need to Sansa to do so as well. 
but why not marry Bolton and wait it out? By marrying him she secured her place. If stannis loses like he keeps doing (save versus the wildlings) she's still secure as wardeness of the north. If she made a run for it the Boltons or a bannerman could have captured her and brought her back and forced her to marry. She already has one unconsummated marriage, why not two? She makes bad decisions in the series, true, but marrying Ramsay with the knowledge she has wasnt a horrible decision.

Once she was in Winterfell she didn't have much of a choice.  She was already committed.  That goes to Berkut's point that it was a bad decision to put herself in that position.  But she had the option of not going down into Winterfell.  When she found out that the marriage Littlefinger had arranged was not his but hers, she could have decided to wait to see the outcome of the battle for the North.  If the Boltons win she still would still have options.  She could agree to the marriage or, a better option, would be for her to raise her own bannerman in revolt after the Boltons were weaked by the attack of Stannis.  If Stannis wins then she gets installed in Winterfell in her own right.

Going along with Littlefinger's plan was her worst play and one she did not have to make. 

@LaCroix, I am not sure what age she is in the show.  But her character has certainly lived through enough now to know not to be so trusting - especially of Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 26, 2015, 05:06:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 05:02:20 PM@LaCroix, I am not sure what age she is in the show.  But her character has certainly lived through enough now to know not to be so trusting - especially of Littlefinger.

a person can go through hell and back yet still trust someone, even if it's one person. happens all the time. we've seen that sansa doesn't trust many people. littlefinger, the person who saved her, doted on her, told his secrets to, etc., gained her trust. then he fucked her over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 26, 2015, 05:06:55 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 05:02:20 PM@LaCroix, I am not sure what age she is in the show.  But her character has certainly lived through enough now to know not to be so trusting - especially of Littlefinger.

a person can go through hell and back yet still trust someone, even if it's one person. happens all the time. we've seen that sansa doesn't trust many people. littlefinger, the person who saved her, doted on her, told his secrets to, etc., gained her trust. then he fucked her over.

You are talking about the Sansa pre-Vale.  The events in the Vale showed she had matured.  Then the show forgot about that part of the story and made her out again to be the helpless waif you describe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 26, 2015, 05:22:39 PM
So, casting calls for characters for season 6 have started out, and apparently they're looking for the following:

QuotePirate,  man in his 40's to late 50's. He's "an infamous pirate who has terrorized seas all around the world. Cunning, ruthless, with a touch of madness."
He's a dangerous-looking man. A very good part this season.

[spoiler]Obviously Euron Greyjoy[/spoiler]

QuoteFather. Aged 50's to 60's, he's one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros- a humorless martinet, severe and intimidating. He demands martial discipline in the field and in his home. It's described as "a very good part" for next year and that he's "centrally involved" in a protagonist's storyline.

[spoiler]Obviously Randyll Tarly[/spoiler]

QuoteMother, in her 50's. She's a sweet, plump, and adoring mother, and has a soft spot for one of her children who benefits from her decency.

Sister, in her early 20s. She's a kind, friendly and unpretentious woman.

Brother, in his early to mid-20's . Athletic, a good hunter, an excellent swordsman, manly, not particularly bright but the favourite child of the father.

[spoiler]The rest of the Tarly family?[/spoiler]

QuotePriest, in his 40's or 50's. A gruff ex-soldier who found religion. Now a no-nonsense rural priest who ministers to the poor of the countryside. He's salt-of-the-earth man who has weathered many battles.

[spoiler]The septon at the Isle of Faces, I guess.[/spoiler]

QuoteLeading Actress, in her early 40's, she's an elegant actress with a traveling theatre company. Fun, charismatic, rum-drinking actress in the troupe.

Priestess. Mid-20's to early 30's. Any ethnicity- she's beautiful, intense, and magnetic.

Fierce Warrior, a tall man in 30's or 40's with a powerful physique. They're looking for someone with "mixed ethnicity" for the role.

No idea about these, might be characters not from the books. [spoiler]Unless the last one is Strong Belwas...[/spoiler]

QuoteA large boy, with an actor who is 10-12 but playing 7 or 8. He's described as "a clever boy" who seems too large for his age. He's big and tall but not fat. "Characterful squat features" are a plus for this part. it's specified that this is a one-time appearance.

12 year old boy, with brown hair and blue eyes. He needs to use a Northern accent. He has scenes where he has to spar with a wooden sword.
The length of the role isn't specified.

7 year old boy with dark brown hair, a narrow face and green eyes. He also has a Northern accent. He also spars with the wooden sword, so it's safe to assume it's the same scene. This role is similarly open-ended, the description only stating that the character is being 'introduced.'

[spoiler]These seem to be from some kind of flashback, maybe something Bran sees through the weirwoods, so they're possibly young Brandon and Eddard Stark, plus a young Robert Baratheon.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 26, 2015, 05:36:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 05:22:27 PMYou are talking about the Sansa pre-Vale.  The events in the Vale showed she had matured.  Then the show forgot about that part of the story and made her out again to be the helpless waif you describe.

sansa has matured. she (unsuccessfully) fought back re: reek and the candle, something (iirc) she never really tried pre-vale. like grumbler said, i'm not convinced she's the same helpless waif she was before. her falling into this situation doesn't make her a helpless waif. it's how she gets out and what happens in the next episodes that will decide that question.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on May 26, 2015, 05:53:29 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on May 26, 2015, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.
These are pretty normal tits for a 19 years old, simply we are not used to them anymore Because we don't see them in RL since decades.
We're getting old.  :(

L.

Speak for thyself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 26, 2015, 06:13:50 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 26, 2015, 05:53:29 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on May 26, 2015, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2015, 01:41:59 AM
She might have had the most perfect set of boobs ever.
These are pretty normal tits for a 19 years old, simply we are not used to them anymore Because we don't see them in RL since decades.
We're getting old.  :(

L.

Speak for thyself.
Your wife finally turned 19!? :o
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 26, 2015, 05:00:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 26, 2015, 04:39:01 PMYes, she had the choice whether to go down to meet with him in the first place.  I think we are watching the same show. Its just that your memory seems to fade with each episode.

sansa is sixteen~ and basically had one person she thought she could trust, littlefinger. littlefinger gives her a spiel about how great an opportunity this is, etc. she's been in bad situations before and probably felt like she could handle ramsay. sansa straight up got played by littlefinger. this all makes sense from what we know about sansa.

now, what happens next is anyone's guess. sansa's years of experience with this kinda stuff could culminate in her achieving a victory on her own, or she could continue being a pawn. either way, you can dislike the plotline all you want, but to argue it makes little sense is silly. it makes sense, and we'll just have to see how it plays out.

I certainly agree it makes sense, I was just saying I was dissapointed as I thought we were going to see the emergence of Sansa as a player, rather than a playee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 11:52:54 PM
Again, to say Sansa had a choice not to go to Winterfell is quite speculative. First of all, she did not make the decision fully consciously - she was manipulated by Littlefinger into making it. Secondly, her decision was based on lack of full facts (she had no reason to think Ramsay was a psycho). Thirdly, we do not know even whether Littlefinger would have respected her refusal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 11:55:22 PM
Anyway, this is becoming a pointless discussion, like the one about "why didn't Barristan Selmy have bodyguards".

If you have so much problem with so many plot lines, perhaps you no longer enjoy this show and should stop watching it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 08:46:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
I certainly agree it makes sense, I was just saying I was dissapointed as I thought we were going to see the emergence of Sansa as a player, rather than a playee.

I think that that is exactly what we will see.  Sansa needs a pretty strong motive to become a manipulator and so a player, and now she has it.  I'd have been disappointed if the writers had just said, "okay, enough episodes have passed, let's write Sansa as a player now."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 27, 2015, 08:49:58 AM
Except that she already became a player at the end of last season. That has all now been thrown away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 08:52:25 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 27, 2015, 08:49:58 AM
Except that she already became a player at the end of last season. That has all now been thrown away.

Who did she fuck over at the end of last season?  All I ever saw her do was lie in, essentially, self-defense.  How was that thrown away now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 08:58:01 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 27, 2015, 08:49:58 AM
Except that she already became a player at the end of last season. That has all now been thrown away.


That is an over-statement. It has not been thrown away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 08:46:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
I certainly agree it makes sense, I was just saying I was dissapointed as I thought we were going to see the emergence of Sansa as a player, rather than a playee.

I think that that is exactly what we will see.  Sansa needs a pretty strong motive to become a manipulator and so a player, and now she has it.  I'd have been disappointed if the writers had just said, "okay, enough episodes have passed, let's write Sansa as a player now."

I think Sansa has more than enough motivation to become a player absent being raped by Ramsey. Joffrey, her father, her mother, her brother, Tyrion, Cersei, her little brothers...she hardly lacks  motive, hence my point.

I agree that this is probably still where this is going, but I think the progression seems to have taken a step in the wrong direction, from a story perspective.

It probably will matter not at all once it is all said and done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 09:13:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 09:00:42 AM
I think Sansa has more than enough motivation to become a player absent being raped by Ramsey. Joffrey, her father, her mother, her brother, Tyrion, Cersei, her little brothers...she hardly lacks  motive, hence my point.

She has the motive to want to help someone to do something, yes.  She doesn't have the motive to become a player, as in "when you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die."  She wasn't ready to kill, betray, lie, cheat, and steal her way to the top.  Now, she does.

I agree that we are probably arguing a very marginal point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 10:33:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 11:52:54 PM
Again, to say Sansa had a choice not to go to Winterfell is quite speculative. First of all, she did not make the decision fully consciously - she was manipulated by Littlefinger into making it. Secondly, her decision was based on lack of full facts (she had no reason to think Ramsay was a psycho). Thirdly, we do not know even whether Littlefinger would have respected her refusal.


Sansa knew that Bolton killed her brother...  I have no idea what you mean by "fully conscious".  She was certainly fully awake  :P  She also had all her faculties. The scene when she made the decision to retract her objection to the marriage and enter Winterfell  is the point in the show when the writers decided to turn her back into a pawn.  They need to wrap up the show and so it is a simple way of dealing with her character.  But it is still disappointing.

Given how differently the story line is in the books (think of the position "Reek" is in now in the books) it will be interesting to see whether she is more empowered there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 10:35:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 08:46:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
I certainly agree it makes sense, I was just saying I was dissapointed as I thought we were going to see the emergence of Sansa as a player, rather than a playee.

I think that that is exactly what we will see.  Sansa needs a pretty strong motive to become a manipulator and so a player, and now she has it.  I'd have been disappointed if the writers had just said, "okay, enough episodes have passed, let's write Sansa as a player now."

Sansa had more motivation to become a player be seeking vengeance on the Boltons and take her rightful place  (as far as she knows) as the last remaining heir of Winterfell.  No need to make her a pawn again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 10:54:48 AM
Not hearing much in the way of concrete suggestions about what she should have done.

LF ditched her.  She was not going back with him to King's Landing.  She wasn't going to wander about in the frozen wastes.  Once at Winterfell she had no choice but to go through with the marriage - refusing certainly would not have made things better for her.  She has virtually no resources there.  She is dealing with one of the most ruthless and savvy operators in the land (Roose B) and a vicious but clever sociopath each with a lot more experience scheming then she has.  She is surrounded by their retainers, guards, and spies.  She had only card available to her and played it.  And when it failed badly and was exposed to her in a manner intend to crush her, she kept it together better than any normal person would.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 27, 2015, 10:59:37 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 10:54:48 AM
Not hearing much in the way of concrete suggestions about what she should have done.

LF ditched her.  She was not going back with him to King's Landing.  She wasn't going to wander about in the frozen wastes.  Once at Winterfell she had no choice but to go through with the marriage - refusing certainly would not have made things better for her.  She has virtually no resources there.  She is dealing with one of the most ruthless and savvy operators in the land (Roose B) and a vicious but clever sociopath each with a lot more experience scheming then she has.  She is surrounded by their retainers, guards, and spies.  She had only card available to her and played it.  And when it failed badly and was exposed to her in a manner intend to crush her, she kept it together better than any normal person would.

This.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 27, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 10:35:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 08:46:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 26, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
I certainly agree it makes sense, I was just saying I was dissapointed as I thought we were going to see the emergence of Sansa as a player, rather than a playee.

I think that that is exactly what we will see.  Sansa needs a pretty strong motive to become a manipulator and so a player, and now she has it.  I'd have been disappointed if the writers had just said, "okay, enough episodes have passed, let's write Sansa as a player now."

Sansa had more motivation to become a player be seeking vengeance on the Boltons and take her rightful place  (as far as she knows) as the last remaining heir of Winterfell.  No need to make her a pawn again.

Being a player means you need to have something to play with. It's hard to do so when you get dealt a really shitty hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 27, 2015, 11:02:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 10:33:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 11:52:54 PM
Again, to say Sansa had a choice not to go to Winterfell is quite speculative. First of all, she did not make the decision fully consciously - she was manipulated by Littlefinger into making it. Secondly, her decision was based on lack of full facts (she had no reason to think Ramsay was a psycho). Thirdly, we do not know even whether Littlefinger would have respected her refusal.


Sansa knew that Bolton killed her brother...  I have no idea what you mean by "fully conscious".  She was certainly fully awake  :P  She also had all her faculties. The scene when she made the decision to retract her objection to the marriage and enter Winterfell  is the point in the show when the writers decided to turn her back into a pawn.  They need to wrap up the show and so it is a simple way of dealing with her character.  But it is still disappointing.

Given how differently the story line is in the books (think of the position "Reek" is in now in the books) it will be interesting to see whether she is more empowered there.

I haven't read the last book, so my analysis of her situation is fully based on what happened on the show. Could it be that your critique is coloured by the differences compared to the book (and, consequently, your natural resentment for such deviations)? Because to me (without having the knowledge of a book reader regarding the alternative storyline with Reek/False Arya) Sansa's behaviour and storyline both make sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 11:10:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2015, 11:02:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 10:33:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 26, 2015, 11:52:54 PM
Again, to say Sansa had a choice not to go to Winterfell is quite speculative. First of all, she did not make the decision fully consciously - she was manipulated by Littlefinger into making it. Secondly, her decision was based on lack of full facts (she had no reason to think Ramsay was a psycho). Thirdly, we do not know even whether Littlefinger would have respected her refusal.


Sansa knew that Bolton killed her brother...  I have no idea what you mean by "fully conscious".  She was certainly fully awake  :P  She also had all her faculties. The scene when she made the decision to retract her objection to the marriage and enter Winterfell  is the point in the show when the writers decided to turn her back into a pawn.  They need to wrap up the show and so it is a simple way of dealing with her character.  But it is still disappointing.

Given how differently the story line is in the books (think of the position "Reek" is in now in the books) it will be interesting to see whether she is more empowered there.

I haven't read the last book, so my analysis of her situation is fully based on what happened on the show. Could it be that your critique is coloured by the differences compared to the book (and, consequently, your natural resentment for such deviations)? Because to me (without having the knowledge of a book reader regarding the alternative storyline with Reek/False Arya) Sansa's behaviour and storyline both make sense.

My critique is based on the show.  As I have already pointed out in the show:

She knows the Boltons killed her brother;
That the Boltons replaced her family as Wardens of the North through an alliance with the Lannisters;
She hates both the Boltons and the Lannisters;
Her family is very popular in the North;
She is, as far as she knows, the last living Stark;


It would have been fairly easy for the show to write in a rising of the loyal North to cause of Sansa Stark.


My reference to the Books is to show that there is an example of how the story could have gone in a very different direction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

If one ignores:

She knows the Boltons killed her brother;
That the Boltons replaced her family as Wardens of the North through an alliance with the Lannisters;
She hates both the Boltons and the Lannisters;
Her family is very popular in the North;
She is, as far as she knows, the last living Stark;

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 27, 2015, 11:13:57 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

Yeah but then the very defining feature of GoT has always been subverting the conventional tropes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

I'd argue that LF's betrayal of her works in that arc because she now knows that, if she wants revenge, she has to take it herself.  Her character arc has been one of slowly learning to assert herself, but still essentially passive.  She, I suspect, has now crossed a threshold and we will see a new Sansa.  She won't be a pawn any more, but will play one on TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 01:15:38 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

That is exactly my point. I am not arguing that her actions aren't believable, but that her returning to "victmhood" is a disappointing turn in her arc.

The set of things that would be believable is obviously pretty large...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

If one ignores:

She knows the Boltons killed her brother;
That the Boltons replaced her family as Wardens of the North through an alliance with the Lannisters;
She hates both the Boltons and the Lannisters;
Her family is very popular in the North;
She is, as far as she knows, the last living Stark;

What is she supposed to do about this?  Run around Winterfell in front of the Bolton guards waving the family banner and shout "rally to me"?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 01:42:30 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

If one ignores:

She knows the Boltons killed her brother;
That the Boltons replaced her family as Wardens of the North through an alliance with the Lannisters;
She hates both the Boltons and the Lannisters;
Her family is very popular in the North;
She is, as far as she knows, the last living Stark;

What is she supposed to do about this?  Run around Winterfell in front of the Bolton guards waving the family banner and shout "rally to me"?

Agree.  She was motivated to work against the Boltons and Lannisters indirectly before, but now she clearly has to take things into her own hands.  I think that this is a watershed for her, but, unlike you if I understand your argument, I think it fits her arc so far.  Her rape was the equivalent of Boromir forcing Frodo to realize that he, alone, has to carry the ring to Mount Doom.  Brienne will be her Sam.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
The better criticism is that the plotting of the TV show works against her character arc as it was developing.  But within the confines of the scenario the teleplay writers have scripted, the character's actions make sense and fit with what came before.

If one ignores:

She knows the Boltons killed her brother;
That the Boltons replaced her family as Wardens of the North through an alliance with the Lannisters;
She hates both the Boltons and the Lannisters;
Her family is very popular in the North;
She is, as far as she knows, the last living Stark;

What is she supposed to do about this?  Run around Winterfell in front of the Bolton guards waving the family banner and shout "rally to me"?

You will recall that before she was in front of Bolton guards, she was in front of Vale guards.  You will also recall that the Lords of the Vale are very sympathetic to her cause.  It would not take a great deal of imagination to take the story in a different direction. ;)

She already underwent her transformation. No need for another transformative event.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 03:58:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
You will recall that before she was in front of Bolton guards, she was in front of Vale guards.  You will also recall that the Lords of the Vale are very sympathetic to her cause.  It would not take a great deal of imagination to take the story in a different direction. ;)

She already underwent her transformation. No need for another transformative event.
She had no power or influence in the Vale.  If she betrayed Littlefinger, she would have lost the only person she knew who (she thought) had her own family's interests in mind.

Suppose she rats out Littlefinger and has the sympathy of the Lords of the Vale.  Then what?  She can either marry some lord of the Vale and live out her life there, or live out her life as a guest of some lord of the Vale.  Transformative event: needed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 03:58:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
You will recall that before she was in front of Bolton guards, she was in front of Vale guards.  You will also recall that the Lords of the Vale are very sympathetic to her cause.  It would not take a great deal of imagination to take the story in a different direction. ;)

She already underwent her transformation. No need for another transformative event.
She had no power or influence in the Vale.  If she betrayed Littlefinger, she would have lost the only person she knew who (she thought) had her own family's interests in mind.

Suppose she rats out Littlefinger and has the sympathy of the Lords of the Vale.  Then what?  She can either marry some lord of the Vale and live out her life there, or live out her life as a guest of some lord of the Vale.  Transformative event: needed.

You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.  The Lords of the Vale accept what she says because of the trust and friendship the Vale had with House Stark.  The power and influence she holds is over Littlefinger.  In case you missed it, it bears repeating.  The only thing standing between the Lords making him fly and him pursuing his goals is Sansa's continuing silence as to what really occurred.  But she gives up all that leverage to become a pawn again.  It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to cut out the fake Arya part of the books and replace it with Sansa using littlefinger and his hold over the Vale to accomplish her goals.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 04:19:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 03:58:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
You will recall that before she was in front of Bolton guards, she was in front of Vale guards.  You will also recall that the Lords of the Vale are very sympathetic to her cause.  It would not take a great deal of imagination to take the story in a different direction. ;)

She already underwent her transformation. No need for another transformative event.
She had no power or influence in the Vale.

I don't think that is true at all - power and influence in Westeros is mostly about relationships, family relationships, and the Stark-Arryn relationship is very well established.

Quote
If she betrayed Littlefinger, she would have lost the only person she knew who (she thought) had her own family's interests in mind.

I don't know that she needs to betray Littlefinger as much as simply decide not to go along with his "plan".

Quote
Suppose she rats out Littlefinger and has the sympathy of the Lords of the Vale.  Then what?  She can either marry some lord of the Vale and live out her life there, or live out her life as a guest of some lord of the Vale.  Transformative event: needed.

Well, I agree that not marrying Ramsey doesn't give her a lot of other options, but without some plan, marrying Ramsey doesn't give her options either.

I don't think the debate though is really about what options Sansa had or didn't have, but rather what options the writers had or didn't have.

I suspect that if you are right, and I relaly hope you are right, whatever Sansa does she could have done from a story arc perspective without the need to show her back to being a pawn first. The arc would work just fine absent this little interlude.

Another thing I find kind of annoying about the Ramsey story line is that the writers have fallen into the "perfect villain" thing with Ramsey. He always knows what is going on, he has seemingly perfect spies/information etc., etc., and no matter what anyone else does, Ramsey is always a step ahead. It is kind of lazy writing, IMO, and something Martin was mostly very good about avoiding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 04:41:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 04:19:22 PM
I don't think that is true at all - power and influence in Westeros is mostly about relationships, family relationships, and the Stark-Arryn relationship is very well established.

Insofar as I can tell, the only Stark/Arryn relationship was that Eddard was fostered by Jon.  That was a personal, not a family, relationship.  Insofar as I know, there were no marriages between the two houses, which is the basis for family relationships in Westeros.

QuoteI don't know that she needs to betray Littlefinger as much as simply decide not to go along with his "plan".

If she doesn't go along with his plan, he would be executed for murdering Lysa.

QuoteWell, I agree that not marrying Ramsey doesn't give her a lot of other options, but without some plan, marrying Ramsey doesn't give her options either.
By the time marriage to Ramsey comes up, she is in a carriage with Littlefinger, surrounded by his men, and with no allies at all.  What do you imagine his response would be to her refusal to go along with his plan?

QuoteI don't think the debate though is really about what options Sansa had or didn't have, but rather what options the writers had or didn't have.

I suspect that if you are right, and I relaly hope you are right, whatever Sansa does she could have done from a story arc perspective without the need to show her back to being a pawn first. The arc would work just fine absent this little interlude.

How?  How does she advance her story if Littlefinger either kills her or salts her away in some backwater spot, to be used if the conditions change?

QuoteAnother thing I find kind of annoying about the Ramsey story line is that the writers have fallen into the "perfect villain" thing with Ramsey. He always knows what is going on, he has seemingly perfect spies/information etc., etc., and no matter what anyone else does, Ramsey is always a step ahead. It is kind of lazy writing, IMO, and something Martin was mostly very good about avoiding.

No question about that.  But Martin had the benefit of infinite time and characters at his disposal.  The writers don't.

Now, if you want to complain about the Reek betrayal bit, I won't argue with that.  It seemed like piling on.  He could just have dropped the candle in the dirt and left room for a more interesting story than the whole flaying bit (why would Ramsey have chosen that one woman, out of the hundreds in Winterfell, to flay? You are right that that was lazy writing).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 27, 2015, 04:47:20 PM
I wonder what little finger is up to at the moment.
He does seem to have sort of just dumped Sansa there and dropped what he was doing to head back to kings landing.
He heard about the rise of the faith and realised what it means far more than do  great houses do?

And yes. TV series Ramsay seems a bit too in control. He is an evil git but very smart and on top of things with it. Book Ramsay seemed a lot more just a spoiled noble who was a psychopath. His intelligence was on a far more individual one to one level, ie Reek.
Strange he hasn't tried to break/train Sansa in a more cunning way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 04:53:06 PM
We haven't had our discussion of the best line of the week yet.  I nominate Daario Naharis's line to Dani: "All rulers are either butchers, or meat."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 05:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 06:22:16 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 05:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

The problem is that they shot that scene in a way that gave the impression that she had a real choice to make.  In fact Littlefinger expressly gave her the choice not to go through with it.  It was not through any threat, express or implied, that convinced her.  He appealed to her to make a rational decision.  My argument is that the reason she made the choice doesn't make much sense in the context of what she knew was happening in the North, her relationship with Littlefinger and most importantly her character arc to that point in time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 06:26:01 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 27, 2015, 04:47:20 PM
I wonder what little finger is up to at the moment.
He does seem to have sort of just dumped Sansa there and dropped what he was doing to head back to kings landing.
He heard about the rise of the faith and realised what it means far more than do  great houses do?

He was summoned to meet with Cersie via crow dispatched to the Vale.  Remember Cersie thought Littlefinger was still in the Vale. If she ever finds out Littlefinger was actually at Winterfell when he received her summons he is toast.  But has he says often - he is taking great risk for great reward.  Littlefinger is a character the show has portrayed very well.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 27, 2015, 08:27:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 04:53:06 PM
We haven't had our discussion of the best line of the week yet.  I nominate Daario Naharis's line to Dani: "All rulers are either butchers, or meat."

"in my dream I was an old man"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 28, 2015, 12:11:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 06:22:16 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 05:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

The problem is that they shot that scene in a way that gave the impression that she had a real choice to make.  In fact Littlefinger expressly gave her the choice not to go through with it.  It was not through any threat, express or implied, that convinced her.  He appealed to her to make a rational decision.  My argument is that the reason she made the choice doesn't make much sense in the context of what she knew was happening in the North, her relationship with Littlefinger and most importantly her character arc to that point in time.

I agree, except that the choice does make sense if you assume that she is at least starting down the path of being a player instead of a playee, which is what I think we all kind of assumed. Yeah, she is going into a very dangerous place, but she is doing it because she thinks it is her chance to exact vengeance, not because she doesn't have any better options and is just hoping for the best.

This was presented to her as a choice, and Littlefinger gave her the option (or at least seemed to give her the option) of walking away.

Now, it is a little unfair of us to complain NOW about her taking that option and saying it was foolish - why didn't we complain then?

Because we all thought this was Sansa's moment to truly start manipulating others, to Littlefinger the Bolton's.

And it may very well be that in the end - but the last two episodes, IMO, show her character taking a huge step back, and rather than controlling what is happening, she is back to reacting to what is happening to her, and doing so largely through hoping that others will protect or save her. Theon is her new Ser Dontos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 28, 2015, 12:15:20 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 27, 2015, 08:27:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 04:53:06 PM
We haven't had our discussion of the best line of the week yet.  I nominate Daario Naharis's line to Dani: "All rulers are either butchers, or meat."

"in my dream I was an old man"

What was the quote that Ramsey said to Sansa? Something about watching her grow up, and now he could watch her become a woman.

I don't think it was that great a quote, but I do think it was interesting how they chose to shoot that scene - almost completely from Theon's point of view. Like the story of Sansa Stark and Ramsey is really a story about Theon, more than it is about Sansa?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 01:55:59 AM
It was "I dreamed I was an old man" and they were last words of Maester Aemon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 28, 2015, 04:47:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2015, 04:41:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 27, 2015, 04:19:22 PM
I don't think that is true at all - power and influence in Westeros is mostly about relationships, family relationships, and the Stark-Arryn relationship is very well established.

Insofar as I can tell, the only Stark/Arryn relationship was that Eddard was fostered by Jon.  That was a personal, not a family, relationship.  Insofar as I know, there were no marriages between the two houses, which is the basis for family relationships in Westeros.

Sansa is also the first cousin of the Lord of the Vale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2015, 05:14:40 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 28, 2015, 04:47:20 AM
Sansa is also the first cousin of the Lord of the Vale.

Though the Tullys, not the Starks.  She would have been sheltered there, but I don't think they'd go to war for her.  If Robyn was old enough and cared enough, that link would be more important.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 28, 2015, 09:37:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2015, 05:14:40 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 28, 2015, 04:47:20 AM
Sansa is also the first cousin of the Lord of the Vale.

Though the Tullys, not the Starks.  She would have been sheltered there, but I don't think they'd go to war for her.  If Robyn was old enough and cared enough, that link would be more important.

Why do they need to go to war for her for that to be an option if she didn't think marrying Ramsey was a great plan?

The point here is that there were other plausible options for her assuming she is NOT actively thinking about using the "Go to Winterfell, marry Ramsey" plan as a means to get what she really wants (whatever that is, presumably vengeance).

If Sansa at the point of decision (when LF tells her she can go to Winterfell or not) is not yet a "player" since she hasn't been raped yet, then choosing to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsey is a terrible choice. It only really makes sense if we accept that *at that point* she had already gone from being this passive pawn to being someone who has learned how to at least start playing the Game of Thrones enough to actually be scheming.

If she is not playing, then the odds of her going to Winterfell, marrying Ramsey, and having something good come out of that are incredibly small. She would be much better off being sheltered in the Vale then being the wife of one of her worst enemies.

I think this was bad writing - gilding the "OMG RAMSEY IS SO TERRIBLE!!!" lily quite a bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2015, 12:11:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 06:22:16 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 27, 2015, 05:31:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 27, 2015, 04:10:56 PM
You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

The problem is that they shot that scene in a way that gave the impression that she had a real choice to make.  In fact Littlefinger expressly gave her the choice not to go through with it.  It was not through any threat, express or implied, that convinced her.  He appealed to her to make a rational decision.  My argument is that the reason she made the choice doesn't make much sense in the context of what she knew was happening in the North, her relationship with Littlefinger and most importantly her character arc to that point in time.

I agree, except that the choice does make sense if you assume that she is at least starting down the path of being a player instead of a playee, which is what I think we all kind of assumed. Yeah, she is going into a very dangerous place, but she is doing it because she thinks it is her chance to exact vengeance, not because she doesn't have any better options and is just hoping for the best.

This was presented to her as a choice, and Littlefinger gave her the option (or at least seemed to give her the option) of walking away.

Now, it is a little unfair of us to complain NOW about her taking that option and saying it was foolish - why didn't we complain then?

Because we all thought this was Sansa's moment to truly start manipulating others, to Littlefinger the Bolton's.

And it may very well be that in the end - but the last two episodes, IMO, show her character taking a huge step back, and rather than controlling what is happening, she is back to reacting to what is happening to her, and doing so largely through hoping that others will protect or save her. Theon is her new Ser Dontos.

Fair point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 12:38:31 PM
Yeah I think if there is anything to complain, it's not that Sansa is behaving unrealistically or out of character or even that this somehow belies her "becoming a player" - but that the writers simply gave us a boring narrative with her so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 28, 2015, 12:41:26 PM
Can't be more boring than what Martin wrote  . . .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 28, 2015, 12:41:26 PM
Can't be more boring than what Martin wrote  . . .

That is a fair point as well. We don't even know where Sansa storyline is heading in the books and the Theon/Fake Arya storyline is tedious. So at least they combined the two in the show, giving us something to get invested into.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 12:44:39 PM
In general, I think the show is simply suffering from the fact that the books get much worse in the later instalments. It kinds goes down after the end of Storm of Swords. Not necessarily because the story is objectively bad, but it is quite hard to trump the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding and the Death on the Crapper(tm).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
I like the book Theon story line.  He's struggling with identity and sanity and redemption.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 01:53:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
I like the book Theon story line.  He's struggling with identity and sanity and redemption.

Agreed.  Book Theon is much more compelling than show Theon.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 01:53:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
I like the book Theon story line.  He's struggling with identity and sanity and redemption.

Agreed.  Book Theon is much more compelling than show Theon.

Not really. It's just the same thing as with Cersei - i.e. different medium.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 03:16:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 01:53:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
I like the book Theon story line.  He's struggling with identity and sanity and redemption.

Agreed.  Book Theon is much more compelling than show Theon.

Not really. It's just the same thing as with Cersei - i.e. different medium.

:huh:

The plot line for Theon is very different in the book. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 28, 2015, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 28, 2015, 12:41:26 PM
Can't be more boring than what Martin wrote  . . .

That is a fair point as well. We don't even know where Sansa storyline is heading in the books and the Theon/Fake Arya storyline is tedious. So at least they combined the two in the show, giving us something to get invested into.

In the books the Starks start out as the central characters but then even the ones that don't get killed off get "stranded" and Martin increasingly gets distracted with his shiny new characters (and some of his non-Stark old ones).  That doesn't really work for a teleplay - a series can keep bringing in and rotating new characters, but it needs the keep a focus on the original ones.  With Bran out and Arya stuck in a side plot, they had to do something to keep Sansa in play. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2015, 12:22:57 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 03:16:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 28, 2015, 01:53:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 28, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
I like the book Theon story line.  He's struggling with identity and sanity and redemption.

Agreed.  Book Theon is much more compelling than show Theon.

Not really. It's just the same thing as with Cersei - i.e. different medium.

:huh:

The plot line for Theon is very different in the book.

The point is that a lot of appeal of both Theon's and Cersei's later book chapters comes from their inner monologue - something that is not possible to portray in a tv show. At least with Cersei there is still a compelling plot involving numerous characters - so sticking to the book narrative in King's Landing simply portrays Cersei as dumb. If they did the same with Theon, it would just be torture porn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 29, 2015, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 28, 2015, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 28, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 28, 2015, 12:41:26 PM
Can't be more boring than what Martin wrote  . . .

That is a fair point as well. We don't even know where Sansa storyline is heading in the books and the Theon/Fake Arya storyline is tedious. So at least they combined the two in the show, giving us something to get invested into.

In the books the Starks start out as the central characters but then even the ones that don't get killed off get "stranded" and Martin increasingly gets distracted with his shiny new characters (and some of his non-Stark old ones).  That doesn't really work for a teleplay - a series can keep bringing in and rotating new characters, but it needs the keep a focus on the original ones.  With Bran out and Arya stuck in a side plot, they had to do something to keep Sansa in play.

Yes, plus from a purely meta perspective, you still need to give your actors a reason to come to work every day, so to speak. That is why we also get scenes like Grey Worm/Missandei - as without it they would have hardly anything to do for the entire season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 29, 2015, 01:26:59 PM
Sansa got raped?

NOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHJJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 29, 2015, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: Siege on May 29, 2015, 01:26:59 PM
Sansa got raped?

NOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHJJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by her husband, though, so not really....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2015, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 29, 2015, 01:53:16 PM
by her husband, though, so not really....

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on May 30, 2015, 10:36:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2015, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 29, 2015, 01:53:16 PM
by her husband, though, so not really....

:bleeding:
That's actually probably what most/all of the characters in the show, including Sansa herself, would say.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2015, 10:43:29 AM
Yup.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 31, 2015, 11:46:22 PM
I just watched the scene tonight. It didn't feel very rapey by me. Maybe by modern standards, but it seemed like she was intending to do her wifely duty and he just hurried the process along. Cringeworthy for sure because everyone loves Sansa, but I think I'm okay with it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 01, 2015, 12:35:54 AM
Danny and Therion is probably better than anything on GoT so far. Sure, it may be amusing to watch Tywin, Olenna, Littlefinger and others trade barbs, but these two are probably the only ones who are both very smart, decent and honest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 08:38:55 AM
Amazing episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 01, 2015, 08:47:44 AM
Every season has one big budget episode, I guess last night's was it.

Not sure if any of that was in the book...or did I sleep through it? [spoiler]I thought all the losses in the book were put down to stormy weather, right?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 01, 2015, 10:17:12 AM
Good episode.  @Josephus, you are right.  This is another story line deviating from the books.

The theory of many for why the show killed off Barristan is not now valid.  He and the Imp could have both advised the Queen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 11:41:14 AM
White walkers are even worse than Scott Walker.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 01, 2015, 01:51:35 PM
Based on the episode 9 preview, I'm guessing [spoiler]they are adapting Ser Davos's storyline so he will now save Shireen from burning rather than Edric Storm like in the books.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 01, 2015, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 01, 2015, 01:51:35 PM
Based on the episode 9 preview, I'm guessing [spoiler]they are adapting Ser Davos's storyline so he will now save Shireen from burning rather than Edric Storm like in the books.[/spoiler]

I think you are correct.[spoiler]Davos has become the character in the show representing everyone in the books who believes it is wrong to sacrifice people with royal blood to the Lord of Light[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 01, 2015, 02:01:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 01, 2015, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 01, 2015, 01:51:35 PM
Based on the episode 9 preview, I'm guessing [spoiler]they are adapting Ser Davos's storyline so he will now save Shireen from burning rather than Edric Storm like in the books.[/spoiler]

I think you are correct.[spoiler]Davos has become the character in the show representing everyone in the books who believes it is wrong to sacrifice people with royal blood to the Lord of Light[/spoiler]

[spoiler]He meant Davos saved Edric in the books, not that Edric saved Shireen. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 01, 2015, 02:23:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 01, 2015, 02:01:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 01, 2015, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 01, 2015, 01:51:35 PM
Based on the episode 9 preview, I'm guessing [spoiler]they are adapting Ser Davos's storyline so he will now save Shireen from burning rather than Edric Storm like in the books.[/spoiler]

I think you are correct.[spoiler]Davos has become the character in the show representing everyone in the books who believes it is wrong to sacrifice people with royal blood to the Lord of Light[/spoiler]

[spoiler]He meant Davos saved Edric in the books, not that Edric saved Shireen. [/spoiler]

Yes, [spoiler]Davos is going to be the one who saves whoever is going to be burned.  I would have liked to see the show develop that part of the story line better before they get to a decision Stannis needs to make about his own daughter.  But I think Davos will ultimately be the one who has to save her from her own father.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
Speculation for the end of the season tying up with the books:

[spoiler]Is it me or is it shaping up to Olly, the young boy at the Watch, being the one who will stab Jon when he returns for allying with the Wildlings?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 01, 2015, 05:26:02 PM
Wasn't expecting Hardholme to be over and done so fast. But it was cool.

Interesting to hear Rickon mentioned. I was just getting to thinking that they were pretending they had never introduced him.

Re : Killing off Baristan.
I guess it adds a bit more drama with Tyrion. With Baristan still there he could have vouched for Tyrion a bit-I think they've crossed paths on neutral terms before.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 01, 2015, 05:29:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
Speculation for the end of the season tying up with the books:

[spoiler]Is it me or is it shaping up to Olly, the young boy at the Watch, being the one who will stab Jon when he returns for allying with the Wildlings?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Almost certainly, the way they point the camera at him and have him talk about his dead parents constantly.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 01, 2015, 05:29:36 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
Speculation for the end of the season tying up with the books:

[spoiler]Is it me or is it shaping up to Olly, the young boy at the Watch, being the one who will stab Jon when he returns for allying with the Wildlings?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Almost certainly, the way they point the camera at him and have him talk about his dead parents constantly.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]That and Sam talking about having to take difficult decissions that will be better in the long run. In his head he's defending Jon, but in Olly's head he's watering the seeds of dissent.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
[spoiler]There's also a chance he doesn't get offed.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 01, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
[spoiler]There's also a chance he doesn't get offed.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I think it's almost certain that the last scene is his stabbing and a fade-to-black to keep it uncertain as to whether he's dead or not.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
[spoiler]There's also a chance he doesn't get offed.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Can't see it not happening, the whole Wall plotline is following the books pretty narrowly, only sped up. And it'd make for a great season finale.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:49:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
[spoiler]Can't see it not happening, the whole Wall plotline is following the books pretty narrowly, only sped up. And it'd make for a great season finale.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Well, I think the script writers have made a conscious decision to depart from Martin's never-ending subplot and flowering entropy and lack of resolution.  Rob's assasination would just create more uncertainty and lack of resolution.  Not saying i'll bet money on it, but I see it as a possibility.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:53:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:49:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
[spoiler]Can't see it not happening, the whole Wall plotline is following the books pretty narrowly, only sped up. And it'd make for a great season finale.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Well, I think the script writers have made a conscious decision to depart from Martin's never-ending subplot and flowering entropy and lack of resolution.  Rob's assasination would just create more uncertainty and lack of resolution.  Not saying i'll bet money on it, but I see it as a possibility.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I guess you mean Jon. At most I'm willing to accept the Caesaring to happen next season instead of this one, after all in the books the deed is done after a whole book of coming and going accomodating the Wildlings at Castle Black, with tension brewing, but it'd make for a quite lousy storyline for the Watch next season. My money is still on the end of this one.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 01, 2015, 05:58:11 PM
Christ it's like the CIA is posting here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
[spoiler]There's also a chance he doesn't get offed.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I think it's almost certain that the last scene is his stabbing and a fade-to-black to keep it uncertain as to whether he's dead or not.[/spoiler]

Probably.

I have no idea how many seasons the people behind GoT have in mind. But it would feel a bit futile if the Arya storyline doesn't go anywhere. The Bran one seems to be ignored in this season (and thank any deity for that).

[spoiler]When Jon Snow finds his sword, he can withstand the White Walker's attack and kill it. Is it because it is, like Ned Stark's sword, Valyrian steel?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:00:51 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
[spoiler]There's also a chance he doesn't get offed.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I think it's almost certain that the last scene is his stabbing and a fade-to-black to keep it uncertain as to whether he's dead or not.[/spoiler]

Probably.

I have no idea how many seasons the people behind GoT have in mind. But it would feel a bit futile if the Arya storyline doesn't go anywhere. The Bran one seems to be ignored in this season (and thank any deity for that).

[spoiler]When Jon Snow finds his sword, he can withstand the White Walker's attack and kill it. Is it because it is, like Ned Stark's sword, Valyrian steel?[/spoiler]

Yes, it is.

Also, with how the show is going, Arya's storyline seems even more ridiculous, now doing a Molly Malone impersonation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
How is it ridiculous?  She's learning Many Faces field craft.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:25:09 PM
How many on her list are left?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 01, 2015, 06:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
Speculation for the end of the season tying up with the books:

[spoiler]Is it me or is it shaping up to Olly, the young boy at the Watch, being the one who will stab Jon when he returns for allying with the Wildlings?[/spoiler]
Yes, after Sam's speech yesterday it's shaping up to be him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
How is it ridiculous?  She's learning Many Faces field craft.

It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:37:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.

What do you want her to do?  Storm into King's Landing and impale all the Lannisters with her knitting needle?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:38:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:37:11 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.

What do you want her to do?  Storm into King's Landing and impale all the Lannisters with her knitting needle?

Don't know, I just really dislike her whole faceless men storyline, both in the books and in the show. I feel it's pointless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
I'd like her to write angry letters to the editor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
How is it ridiculous?  She's learning Many Faces field craft.

It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.

As far as she knows, she has no brothers or sisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:57:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
How is it ridiculous?  She's learning Many Faces field craft.

It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.

As far as she knows, she has no brothers or sisters.

Even if she knows that at least Jon and Sansa are still around, I mean it as a comparison of her character and the others, not about what she might know or not. Arya the ninja assassin just seems way too ridiculous for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Going to Bravoos probably wasn't her number one choice. She had that coin. And she got her ride.

When there, she only has one choice. To try and find the Faceless Man. Arya's storyline isn't ridiculous. She tried her best in Westeroos.
Coming back stronger to fight another say seems like a reasonable choice to me.
As we have seen, she struggles to let go of her identity as Arya Stark.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 12:33:10 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FBUf5RLf.gif&hash=714210b09e9d4caaea424ff44c0b956f12a757e0)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:21:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:57:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
How is it ridiculous?  She's learning Many Faces field craft.

It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.

As far as she knows, she has no brothers or sisters.

Even if she knows that at least Jon and Sansa are still around, I mean it as a comparison of her character and the others, not about what she might know or not. Arya the ninja assassin just seems way too ridiculous for me.

I think you have missed the point of her plot line. Every day since her father was killed she has been vowing to kill those who have wronged her.  She originally attempted to travel north but could not arrange passage.  So she did the next best thing and took up the offer to be trained as a faceless man so that she could carry out the assassinations she has promised to herself.

The struggle in her story line is that she has to abandon those vows and her own self interest to become a faceless man.  That is the interesting internal conflict of her story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 02, 2015, 10:24:14 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:21:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:57:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
How is it ridiculous?  She's learning Many Faces field craft.

It's ridiculous because while she goes after shady insurance dealers with no relation to her whatsoever her brothers and sisters are battling for the fate of their homeland.

As far as she knows, she has no brothers or sisters.

Even if she knows that at least Jon and Sansa are still around, I mean it as a comparison of her character and the others, not about what she might know or not. Arya the ninja assassin just seems way too ridiculous for me.

I think you have missed the point of her plot line. Every day since her father was killed she has been vowing to kill those who have wronged her.  She originally attempted to travel north but could not arrange passage.  So she did the next best thing and took up the offer to be trained as a faceless man so that she could carry out the assassinations she has promised to herself.

The struggle in her story line is that she has to abandon those vows and her own self interest to become a faceless man.  That is the interesting internal conflict of her story.

Still stupid. I can see Arya the wronged tomboy, I can't see Arya the teenage ninja hell bent on revenge. It's so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 02, 2015, 10:24:14 AM
Still stupid. I can see Arya the wronged tomboy, I can't see Arya the teenage ninja hell bent on revenge. It's so ridiculous.

Then you haven't been paying attention since book 1/season 1. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 02, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 02, 2015, 10:24:14 AM
Still stupid. I can see Arya the wronged tomboy, I can't see Arya the teenage ninja hell bent on revenge. It's so ridiculous.

Then you haven't been paying attention since book 1/season 1. :P

Or I have and still don't like it.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 02, 2015, 11:10:14 AM
Quote from: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
I'd like her to write angry letters to the editor.

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2015, 11:16:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 02, 2015, 10:24:14 AM
Still stupid. I can see Arya the wronged tomboy, I can't see Arya the teenage ninja hell bent on revenge. It's so ridiculous.

I agree.  She should never have been taken out of Westeros.
It's another instance of Martin privileging his world building over sensible plot building.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 02, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:21:19 AM
I think you have missed the point of her plot line. Every day since her father was killed she has been vowing to kill those who have wronged her.

In fact, if you've been paying attention, she will almost certainly kill one of those people next episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:21:19 AM
I think you have missed the point of her plot line. Every day since her father was killed she has been vowing to kill those who have wronged her.

In fact, if you've been paying attention, she will almost certainly kill one of those people next episode.

Yep.  Which mirrors a high-profile kill that she's likely to make in the next book. I have my theories as to who, but there are only a few important people over there, so...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 11:35:03 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:21:19 AM
I think you have missed the point of her plot line. Every day since her father was killed she has been vowing to kill those who have wronged her.

In fact, if you've been paying attention, she will almost certainly kill one of those people next episode.

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 02, 2015, 01:26:38 PM
On Arya- After her encounters with Syrio and Jaqen she is a Braavos fangirl. It totally makes sense she would run off down that rabbit hole. Add in the lust for vengeance and that Braavos seems to offer that and....makes sense.
The only somewhat unrealistic part about it is how everything falls so brilliantly into place for her.

Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
[spoiler]There's also a chance he doesn't get offed.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I think it's almost certain that the last scene is his stabbing and a fade-to-black to keep it uncertain as to whether he's dead or not.[/spoiler]
:yes:
It hasn't happened in the books yet but it seems certain a central plotline is to be with technicalities of the Watch's oath and the big bloodline reveal that is suspected to such an extent it would be a surprise if not true.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 02, 2015, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 02, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 10:21:19 AM
I think you have missed the point of her plot line. Every day since her father was killed she has been vowing to kill those who have wronged her.

In fact, if you've been paying attention, she will almost certainly kill one of those people next episode.

Yep.  Which mirrors a high-profile kill that she's likely to make in the next book. I have my theories as to who, but there are only a few important people over there, so...

I, for one, would like to hear those theories to sate my apetite for GoT-related stuff between episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2015, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 02, 2015, 01:26:38 PM
On Arya- After her encounters with Syrio and Jaqen she is a Braavos fangirl.

Yes because it was written that way.  So that the author could have an excuse to introduce yet another setting and groups of additional characters in a narrative already laden with too many of both.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2015, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 02, 2015, 01:26:38 PM
On Arya- After her encounters with Syrio and Jaqen she is a Braavos fangirl.

Yes because it was written that way.  So that the author could have an excuse to introduce yet another setting and groups of additional characters in a narrative already laden with too many of both.

Nothing wrong with having a broad scope.  Your complaint seems to be that he left too many loose ends.  That is of course a valid criticism but not one that can be made about the Arya storyline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2015, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 01:44:52 PM
Nothing wrong with having a broad scope.  Your complaint seems to be that he left too many loose ends. 

No I am saying there is something wrong with having a broad scope.  There is a loss of focus.  Every time there is a new setting and a new slew of characters to keep track of I find myself incrementally losing interest.  Granted the show is less prone to this as it excises a lot of this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2015, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 01:44:52 PM
Nothing wrong with having a broad scope.  Your complaint seems to be that he left too many loose ends. 

No I am saying there is something wrong with having a broad scope.  There is a loss of focus.  Every time there is a new setting and a new slew of characters to keep track of I find myself incrementally losing interest.  Granted the show is less prone to this as it excises a lot of this.

That may be up to individual taste.  I enjoy a grand scope and I find the Arya storyline particularly compelling and well written.   Martin got lost in a lot of other subplots but not this one.

The main problem I have with the show is that is simplified everything too much.  So again, personal taste.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 03:50:04 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 02, 2015, 01:38:43 PM
I, for one, would like to hear those theories to sate my apetite for GoT-related stuff between episodes.

[spoiler]Harys Swyft (Master of Coin, and father-in-law of Kevan Lannister) is in Braavos attempting to treat with the Iron Bank to renegotiate for the Lannisters.  Unfortunately for him, Arya happens to be skulking about and the Iron Bank isn't exactly predisposed to liking the Lannisters at the moment.  I think it almost certain that Swyft is going to get the chop as well, leaving even more of the Lannister elite dead.  Combined with the death of Kevan, and with what I expect to be either the death or irrelevancy of Paxter Redwyne (Master of Ships) to the Ironborn out west, the Small Council, the death of Swyft is going to leave a huge power vacuum in King's Landing.  Mace Tyrell is going to have his hands full, and we all know how incompetent he is.

King's Landing is ripe for the plucking the moment Randyll Tarly's army goes elsewhere--or maybe even if he stays put.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 02:04:25 PM
That may be up to individual taste.  I enjoy a grand scope and I find the Arya storyline particularly compelling and well written.   Martin got lost in a lot of other subplots but not this one.

:yes:  I think it is up to taste.  I hear a lot of people complaining about the extravagance and bloat of the series, and understand that complaint, but...it is not something I agree with.  Part of the fun of ASoIaF is the epic scale of it, the world-building, etc.  I am not going to complain if the author wants to invite me to read another 200 pages of his world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2015, 04:00:42 PM
I'm with Joan.  All the Iron Islands succession crap was unnecessary padding.  The chapter on Fat Boy's super excellent adventures at Magister State University made me cry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 04:05:56 PM
If you didn't like the Iron Islands stuff, you're going to have some rough moments in the next season...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 02, 2015, 04:08:07 PM
For the record, I'd tolerate much more easily a waterdancer Arya than a faceless girl Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 02, 2015, 04:22:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 03:50:04 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 02, 2015, 01:38:43 PM
I, for one, would like to hear those theories to sate my apetite for GoT-related stuff between episodes.

[spoiler]Harys Swyft (Master of Coin, and father-in-law of Kevan Lannister) is in Braavos attempting to treat with the Iron Bank to renegotiate for the Lannisters.  Unfortunately for him, Arya happens to be skulking about and the Iron Bank isn't exactly predisposed to liking the Lannisters at the moment.  I think it almost certain that Swyft is going to get the chop as well, leaving even more of the Lannister elite dead.  Combined with the death of Kevan, and with what I expect to be either the death or irrelevancy of Paxter Redwyne (Master of Ships) to the Ironborn out west, the Small Council, the death of Swyft is going to leave a huge power vacuum in King's Landing.  Mace Tyrell is going to have his hands full, and we all know how incompetent he is.

King's Landing is ripe for the plucking the moment Randyll Tarly's army goes elsewhere--or maybe even if he stays put.[/spoiler]

That's a good theory. And a good story too. :)

I am knee deep in the Telltales Games version of GoT. House Ironrath does not fare well with Norgy at the helm.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2015, 05:06:14 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 02, 2015, 03:50:04 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 02, 2015, 01:38:43 PM
I, for one, would like to hear those theories to sate my apetite for GoT-related stuff between episodes.

[spoiler]Harys Swyft (Master of Coin, and father-in-law of Kevan Lannister) is in Braavos attempting to treat with the Iron Bank to renegotiate for the Lannisters.  Unfortunately for him, Arya happens to be skulking about and the Iron Bank isn't exactly predisposed to liking the Lannisters at the moment.  I think it almost certain that Swyft is going to get the chop as well, leaving even more of the Lannister elite dead.  Combined with the death of Kevan, and with what I expect to be either the death or irrelevancy of Paxter Redwyne (Master of Ships) to the Ironborn out west, the Small Council, the death of Swyft is going to leave a huge power vacuum in King's Landing.  Mace Tyrell is going to have his hands full, and we all know how incompetent he is.

King's Landing is ripe for the plucking the moment Randyll Tarly's army goes elsewhere--or maybe even if he stays put.[/spoiler]

I like your theory. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 02, 2015, 06:16:02 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2015, 04:00:42 PM
The chapter on Fat Boy's super excellent adventures at Magister State University made me cry.

:yes: :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 03, 2015, 12:50:58 PM
http://i.imgur.com/DJg8mTL.gifv

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2015, 01:09:36 AM
Quote from: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
I'd like her to write angry letters to the editor.

Mauled to death by a lion! :weep:

http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2015/06/03/vancouver-based-game-of-thrones-editor-killed-by-lion-in-south-africa.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on June 06, 2015, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2015, 01:09:36 AM
Quote from: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
I'd like her to write angry letters to the editor.

Mauled to death by a lion! :weep:

http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2015/06/03/vancouver-based-game-of-thrones-editor-killed-by-lion-in-south-africa.html

QuoteThe lion attacked Chappell through an open car window, which a park spokesman insisted was "strictly against policy".
:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 06, 2015, 01:13:16 PM
I think having your window open was the against policy part unless the other Lions are normally respectful of laws and regulations  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 06, 2015, 07:00:45 PM
Oh, my lion...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 06, 2015, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 06, 2015, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2015, 01:09:36 AM
Quote from: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
I'd like her to write angry letters to the editor.

Mauled to death by a lion! :weep:

http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2015/06/03/vancouver-based-game-of-thrones-editor-killed-by-lion-in-south-africa.html

QuoteThe lion attacked Chappell through an open car window, which a park spokesman insisted was "strictly against policy".
:huh:

Fucking Lannisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2015, 01:25:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 06, 2015, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 06, 2015, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 04, 2015, 01:09:36 AM
Quote from: Norgy on June 01, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
I'd like her to write angry letters to the editor.

Mauled to death by a lion! :weep:

http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2015/06/03/vancouver-based-game-of-thrones-editor-killed-by-lion-in-south-africa.html

QuoteThe lion attacked Chappell through an open car window, which a park spokesman insisted was "strictly against policy".
:huh:

Fucking Lannisters.

Well, she did work on the episode in which Tywin died. So I guess they always pay their debts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 07, 2015, 09:27:09 PM
Stannis, what a mensch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 07, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
[spoiler]"he never would have done that in the books!"[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 07, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
[spoiler]"he never would have done that in the books!"[/spoiler]

I gotta keep repeating that to myself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 10:20:02 PM
The end of the episode this week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxTwqzr1sw
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 07, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 10:20:02 PM
The end of the episode this week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxTwqzr1sw
:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 07, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
[spoiler]you knew the dragon was coming, but it was still pretty cool [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 07, 2015, 11:16:50 PM
I thought it would be bigger. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 07, 2015, 11:21:47 PM
Wow, heel turn by Stannis. Maybe they're trying to set up Ramsay as the babyface.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 07, 2015, 11:22:23 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 07, 2015, 11:16:50 PM
I thought it would be bigger.
That's what she said! Oh, wait...  :Embarrass:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 07, 2015, 11:23:40 PM
Quote from: Kleves on June 07, 2015, 11:21:47 PM
Wow, heel turn by Stannis. Maybe they're trying to set up Ramsay as the babyface.
ol' Ramsay is the one that was promised... Like every other damn character in the books if you look on the Internet
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 11:24:07 PM
Quote from: Kleves on June 07, 2015, 11:21:47 PM
Wow, heel turn by Stannis. Maybe they're trying to set up Ramsay as the babyface.

That was pretty goofballs.  Super-Ramsay strikes again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2015, 11:44:55 PM
Baratheons - worst parents ever. They make Lannisters look like role models.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 12:16:15 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 07, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
[spoiler]"he never would have done that in the books!"[/spoiler]

I gotta keep repeating that to myself.

[spoiler]Apparently, it is one of the things that GRRM told the show writers as a future book event.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 12:28:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 12:16:15 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 07, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
[spoiler]"he never would have done that in the books!"[/spoiler]

I gotta keep repeating that to myself.

[spoiler]Apparently, it is one of the things that GRRM told the show writers as a future book event.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Them taking an event that happens in the book (a character death) and changing the circumstances entirely is not the same as it being a 'future book event'.  I fully believe that the character is probably headed for the pyre in some fashion in the next book, but in the same circumstances?  No chance.  This smacks of major-event-rushed-into-a-small-time-frame-for-TV.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 01:08:30 AM
Incidentally, I wonder if feminists and the like are going to freak out over a little girl being burned alive the same way they freaked out over a woman being raped two episodes ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 07:14:04 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 07, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
[spoiler]"he never would have done that in the books!"[/spoiler]

I gotta keep repeating that to myself.

I was wondering how the Stannis Fan Club would react...

"But he is the true king!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 08, 2015, 07:56:23 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 07:14:04 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 07, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
[spoiler]"he never would have done that in the books!"[/spoiler]

I gotta keep repeating that to myself.
I was wondering how the Stannis Fan Club would react...

"But he is the true king!"
Well, he still is.  But a lot of people could at least respect Stannis because even when he did monstrous things, there was some justice to it.  But this is kind of a moral event horizon, one that Davos saved him from before when Melisandre was trying to burn Robert's bastard.  So now, he's going to be seen as a bad guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 08, 2015, 07:59:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 01:08:30 AM
Incidentally, I wonder if feminists and the like are going to freak out over a little girl being burned alive the same way they freaked out over a woman being raped two episodes ago.

Nah...child killing is fine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 08:01:16 AM
There is kind of a fucked up, twisted "honorable" logic to it, and it is consistent with the books background on the Lord of Light.

It is easy to say "We must sacrifice this preumptive innocent for the greater good" when that innocent is some other person, like Gendry. It is quite another when the sacrifice is someone dear to you - it is a true sacrifice.

And in the books, the first Lord of Light prophet guy killed his own wife, IIRC, to gain the power to defeat evil, right?

In this case, I imagine Stannis would have much rather stuck his wife on the stake instead of his Shereen...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 08, 2015, 09:58:20 AM
The dragon scene with Dany was awesome. Loved it, was expecting it as I remember if from the books.

I was a bit shocked at Stannis killing his daughter for some kind of godly favor. Many of his soldiers looked pretty shocked also, and I wonder if that will hinder the morale of his forces. He's already has some troops run off, mercenaries though but his army is still in a tough situation in the cold.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:23:10 AM
It is interesting how they chose to do that - not just killing Shereen, but doing so in a extremely public manner.

I sure as hell would never follow the man afterwards, no matter how loyal I was to start.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:23:10 AM
It is interesting how they chose to do that - not just killing Shereen, but doing so in a extremely public manner.

I sure as hell would never follow the man afterwards, no matter how loyal I was to start.

One thing neither the book nor the series are terribly interested in is the POV of the rank and file.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:23:10 AM
It is interesting how they chose to do that - not just killing Shereen, but doing so in a extremely public manner.

I sure as hell would never follow the man afterwards, no matter how loyal I was to start.

One thing neither the book nor the series are terribly interested in is the POV of the rank and file.

That is true - Martin never really seems to consider things like moral, for the most part, which of course in that period would be pretty critical.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 08, 2015, 10:38:05 AM
a starving trapped armies moral isn't much better. Some might abandon him, but if the sacrifice works he'll still be ahead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 10:41:59 AM
Did anything happen after the sacrifice? (I missed the episode.) Did meatball subs and fleece hoodies magically fall from the sky?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
My recollection is that in Greek drama, the line and file troops were the ones pushing for Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter, so at least as a literary trope, it wouldn't necessarily have a negative impact.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:23:10 AM
It is interesting how they chose to do that - not just killing Shereen, but doing so in a extremely public manner.

I sure as hell would never follow the man afterwards, no matter how loyal I was to start.

Which is why the scene doesn't work for me.  In the books, at least, we have a contingent (maybe 1/4th of Stannis' troops) that are die-hard R'hllor followers.  Presumably, those still exist in the series.  But the other 3/4th?  They're there due to feudal obligations, or because they believe Stannis is their king, or because they're Northerners that have signed on to help.  That entire group would desert en masse at such an instance of kinslaying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 11:30:45 AM
Yeah, certainly no nothern troops would stand for that.

I mean, they didn't just kill her, right? They burned her alive.

However, I do not agree with you that this is necessarily a break from the books (even the theoretical books) - I think the entire Stannis story arc is pointing very firmly at Stannis, at some point, having to decide just how much the ends justify any means. He was either going to have a "Come to Jesus" moment where he rejects Melisandre/LoL, or a moment where he completely falls to evil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 11:39:12 AM
I don't at all disagree that Stannis' arc could be headed that way, but I don't think he'd be the one to instigate it given his current circumstances in the books.  He is in a tough situation in the books, but I actually thing he's positioned to win the fight coming up (I have a variety of reasons for that).  In the show, at least, they made the situation desperate enough that he would consider that.  But in the books? 

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdDrkK74.jpg&hash=6ae3f4a875f63947379679570ba48f14efdc8204)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 11:42:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 10:23:10 AM
It is interesting how they chose to do that - not just killing Shereen, but doing so in a extremely public manner.

I sure as hell would never follow the man afterwards, no matter how loyal I was to start.

One thing neither the book nor the series are terribly interested in is the POV of the rank and file.

That is true - Martin never really seems to consider things like moral, for the most part, which of course in that period would be pretty critical.

I disagree, large parts of the book dealt with the Imp rallying the populace and troops defending Kings Landing.


QuoteWhich is why the scene doesn't work for me.  In the books, at least, we have a contingent (maybe 1/4th of Stannis' troops) that are die-hard R'hllor followers.  Presumably, those still exist in the series.  But the other 3/4th?  They're there due to feudal obligations, or because they believe Stannis is their king, or because they're Northerners that have signed on to help.  That entire group would desert en masse at such an instance of kinslaying.


I agree.  I wondered why most of the army didnt just start walking away.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 11:47:05 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 11:30:45 AM
Yeah, certainly no nothern troops would stand for that.

I mean, they didn't just kill her, right? They burned her alive.

However, I do not agree with you that this is necessarily a break from the books (even the theoretical books) - I think the entire Stannis story arc is pointing very firmly at Stannis, at some point, having to decide just how much the ends justify any means. He was either going to have a "Come to Jesus" moment where he rejects Melisandre/LoL, or a moment where he completely falls to evil.

Most of his support in the books is because his followers believe that although he is harsh he is also just.    The argument that he needed to sacrifice his daughter is self serving.  It is also a damning admission.  He is the one true king sure.  But he cant enforce his claim without sacrificing his only child to a blood thirsty God?

Also, the reaction of his wife who is (or at least was) a devout follower is very interesting.  I wonder if it will foreshadow what Stannis' army does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 11:51:05 AM
Also, I thought the Dragon was a bit wimpy.  It could be hurt but 20 or so rebels?  These dragons are supposed to be able to defeat whole armies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 11:54:56 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 11:51:05 AM
Also, I thought the Dragon was a bit wimpy.  It could be hurt but 20 or so rebels?  These dragons are supposed to be able to defeat whole armies.

The dragons are nowhere near fully-grown yet.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwinteriscoming.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F12%2FDragon-Size-Chart.jpg&hash=4fc3ebada37066eabb0e6ef53653e9882c961fa1)

Mind, Balerion is the largest that's ever been, but Drogon is still nowhere near his size yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 08, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
Should Smaug be that small? I remember him being enormous, at least five times the size of Drogon in ep. 9.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 11:54:56 AM
The dragons are nowhere near fully-grown yet.

Ah, ok.  I thought they were near maturity now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 01:36:07 PM
Well, we actually don't really know how big these dragons will be though. The "grown size" decreased drastically over the years. But Daenyr's dragons are already larger than the grown size of the "runt" dragons that were around towards the end of time of dragons...

Is this a "reset" of the dragon sizing, such that we can expect Drogon to potentially reach Belarion size?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 01:40:38 PM
Good point Berkut.  I can't remember the explanation in the books for why dragon size decreased and why they eventually died off but my recollection is that these dragons are not effected by whatever that was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 01:42:42 PM
I don't think there ever was an explanation, or at least I don't recall it.  It almost certainly has to do with the cyclical seasons(/climate change) and the waning/waxing of magic power.  The dragons appeared in tune with the Red Comet, so it seems to me that they grow in line with the increase in magic in the world.  Since magic is currently increasing (in Westeros, at least), I think it reasonable to conclude that the dragons will keep growing, potentially to an immense size depending on just how much magic comes about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 08, 2015, 01:52:22 PM
I thought it was because of inbreeding after most of the dragons died during the dance of the dragons.

And wasn't Belarion an unusually large dragon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 08, 2015, 01:52:22 PM
I thought it was because of inbreeding after most of the dragons died during the dance of the dragons.

I can't find that in any sources, but I could be wrong.  Most of them did, in fact, die during the Dance of Dragons, but dragon mating isn't exactly covered in detail in the books.  Indeed, the only thing that I seem to recall about them breeding is that they can change their gender at will--seemingly on a need-to-do-so-basis.  But I don't recall anything about inbreeding being the cause of their temporary extinction, which leads me to conclude that their rise and fall is attached to magic.

QuoteAnd wasn't Belarion an unusually large dragon?

Being the largest ever recorded is certainly unusually large.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 08, 2015, 02:49:04 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 11:15:01 AM
That entire group would desert en masse at such an instance of kinslaying.
I don't know that I expect massive desertions (aside from Davos, the poor bastard). In the show, I don't know if they ever presented Stannis as having any northern contigent to speak of. The non-nothern contigents may not have anywhere else to go in the middle of winter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 01:59:17 PM
Being the largest ever recorded is certainly unusually large.  :P
Not necessarily. Being the largest in a very homogeneous sample could mean that his size is still usual.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 03:01:18 PM
Quote from: Kleves on June 08, 2015, 02:49:04 PM
I don't know that I expect massive desertions (aside from Davos, the poor bastard). In the show, I don't know if they ever presented Stannis as having any northern contigent to speak of. The non-nothern contigents may not have anywhere else to go in the middle of winter.

Pretty sure I heard some dialogue in one of the snowed in camp scenes that could only have come from the northern hill tribe guys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
My recollection is that in Greek drama, the line and file troops were the ones pushing for Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter, so at least as a literary trope, it wouldn't necessarily have a negative impact.
Ritualized slaying of the firstborn is pretty important in all non-Jewish West Semitic societies. Carthage did it, and Rome famously flirted with human sacrifice during the worst bits of the Punic Wars.  I think, in a weird way, the shared guilt of having sacrificed Shireen could cement loyalties, and once the power of the Lord of Light is proven you'd have a lot of converts in the army. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:06:59 PM
Ritualized slaying of the firstborn is pretty important in all non-Jewish West Semitic societies. Carthage did it, and Rome famously flirted with human sacrifice during the worst bits of the Punic Wars.  I think, in a weird way, the shared guilt of having sacrificed Shireen could cement loyalties.
Wasn't Abraham supposed to sacrifice Isaac and God only stopped him at the very last moment? That's about as Jewish-West Semitic as you can get.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
My recollection is that in Greek drama, the line and file troops were the ones pushing for Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter, so at least as a literary trope, it wouldn't necessarily have a negative impact.
Ritualized slaying of the firstborn is pretty important in all non-Jewish West Semitic societies. Carthage did it, and Rome famously flirted with human sacrifice during the worst bits of the Punic Wars.  I think, in a weird way, the shared guilt of having sacrificed Shireen could cement loyalties, and once the power of the Lord of Light is proven you'd have a lot of converts in the army. 

Especially if it actually works...which presumably it will.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:06:59 PM
Ritualized slaying of the firstborn is pretty important in all non-Jewish West Semitic societies. Carthage did it, and Rome famously flirted with human sacrifice during the worst bits of the Punic Wars.  I think, in a weird way, the shared guilt of having sacrificed Shireen could cement loyalties.
Wasn't Abraham supposed to sacrifice Isaac and God only stopped him at the very last moment? That's about as Jewish-West Semitic as you can get.
Yup yup yup. 

That's one of the reasons people-even Kierkegaard-pointing to that as proof of the essential arbitraryness of the Abrahamic diety always pisses me off.  This is one of the great central Jewish reforms of the shared Western Semitic faith; you don't have to kill your firstborn son when times get tough.   The Jews are WILLING to do this to prove their devotion to HaShem, but HaShem is a way nicer god than Moloch.  It's comparable and contemporaneous with Zoroastrian and Brahminical reactions against shared Indo-Iranian horse and cattle sacrifice and raiding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:16:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
My recollection is that in Greek drama, the line and file troops were the ones pushing for Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter, so at least as a literary trope, it wouldn't necessarily have a negative impact.
Ritualized slaying of the firstborn is pretty important in all non-Jewish West Semitic societies. Carthage did it, and Rome famously flirted with human sacrifice during the worst bits of the Punic Wars.  I think, in a weird way, the shared guilt of having sacrificed Shireen could cement loyalties, and once the power of the Lord of Light is proven you'd have a lot of converts in the army. 

Especially if it actually works...which presumably it will.

Yeah.  Shireen would be less of a victim than a kind of self-made Joan of Arc. I think that'd be the smart/horrifying/interesting way of portraying this, but IDK if they'll do that. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 03:41:16 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:06:59 PM
Ritualized slaying of the firstborn is pretty important in all non-Jewish West Semitic societies. Carthage did it, and Rome famously flirted with human sacrifice during the worst bits of the Punic Wars.  I think, in a weird way, the shared guilt of having sacrificed Shireen could cement loyalties.
Wasn't Abraham supposed to sacrifice Isaac and God only stopped him at the very last moment? That's about as Jewish-West Semitic as you can get.
Yup yup yup. 

That's one of the reasons people-even Kierkegaard-pointing to that as proof of the essential arbitraryness of the Abrahamic diety always pisses me off.  This is one of the great central Jewish reforms of the shared Western Semitic faith; you don't have to kill your firstborn son when times get tough.   The Jews are WILLING to do this to prove their devotion to HaShem, but HaShem is a way nicer god than Moloch.  It's comparable and contemporaneous with Zoroastrian and Brahminical reactions against shared Indo-Iranian horse and cattle sacrifice and raiding.

Who's HaShem? I have seen IHVH, Elohim, Eheieh, Shaddai Elohai, Adonai and several other names, but not this one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: Kleves on June 08, 2015, 02:49:04 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 11:15:01 AM
That entire group would desert en masse at such an instance of kinslaying.
I don't know that I expect massive desertions (aside from Davos, the poor bastard). In the show, I don't know if they ever presented Stannis as having any northern contigent to speak of. The non-nothern contigents may not have anywhere else to go in the middle of winter.

Does the "in the books" part that you lopped off mean something different than what I think it means?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:43:08 PM
Don't try to out pedantic me, Marty.  You won't win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 03:44:15 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:43:08 PM
Don't try to out pedantic me, Marty.  You won't win.

I am just curious. I have not encountered that name of the God of Israel before.

Edit: Googled it. Clever!

By the way, it has been speculated that I-H-V-H (with all the vowels you can fit in between) is very similar to the kind of sound one would make when touching a very highly charged battery made of something as conductive of electricity as a box made of solid gold. ;)

Like, say the Arc of Covenant. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:47:38 PM
HaShem just means "The Name" as I'm sure you know from Google.  Religious Jews will often use "HaShem" instead of any of the names you listed because of a sacred taboo that TBH has probably been around a very, very long time.  I actually didn't meant to sound pretentious, at least consciously, by using it, it's just kind of the name I tend to associate religious Jews describing their own God with. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 03:48:43 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:47:38 PM
HaShem just means "The Name" as I'm sure you know from Google.  Religious Jews will often use "HaShem" instead of any of the names you listed because of a sacred taboo that TBH has probably been around a very, very long time.  I actually didn't meant to sound pretentious, at least consciously, by using it, it's just kind of the name I tend to associate religious Jews describing their own God with.

Yeah, thanks checked it. I'm not a religious Jew and my knowledge of these names comes more from Western Hermetic Qabbalism so I guess I get a pass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 08, 2015, 03:54:38 PM
Woah you really had never heard Hashem before? But I guess there are no Jews in Poland left to educate you on their ways.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 03:55:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 08, 2015, 03:54:38 PM
Woah you really had never heard Hashem before? But I guess there are no Jews in Poland left to educate you on their ways.

I probably had but forgot.  :blush:

But yeah, these names I know from reading English language books, not anything in Polish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:56:25 PM
I got in a multi hour long hilarious argument with some Black Hebrew Israelites (a syncretic Black Supremacist cult that takes a weird hodgepodge of Judaism, racialized American Calvinism and the Nation of Islam and is hilarious) about what "Fake Jews" (meaning Real Jews) call God.  They argued that "Yahweh" was a Yiddish corruption of the "real name" Yahawashi, and that "Fake Jews" worship "HaShem."  I tried to inform them that they were breaking one of the oldest taboos in the history of Judaism by taking Adonai's name in vain like that, and that "Yahweh" was just a natural phonetic evolution of whatever came before it, but you know, they were idiots in a cult.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 04:00:20 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 03:56:25 PM
I got in a multi hour long hilarious argument with some Black Hebrew Israelites (a syncretic Black Supremacist cult that takes a weird hodgepodge of Judaism, racialized American Calvinism and the Nation of Islam and is hilarious) about what "Fake Jews" (meaning Real Jews) call God.  They argued that "Yahweh" was a Yiddish corruption of the "real name" Yahawashi, and that "Fake Jews" worship "HaShem."  I tried to inform them that they were breaking one of the oldest taboos in the history of Judaism by taking Adonai's name in vain like that, and that "Yahweh" was just a natural phonetic evolution of whatever came before it, but you know, they were idiots in a cult.

Western Qabbalists do not seem to have this kind of concerns, but for the sake of accuracy, most pronounce it Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh as "Yahweh", "Yehowah" and all other versions are all likely to be wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 04:07:04 PM
From the interview with Liam Cunningham (Ser Davos) about his last day on the set with Kerry Ingram (Shereen):

QuoteIt was really sweet on the last day that we worked together. I had bought an Irish silver stag that I had made up for Kerry as a parting gift. When I handed it over she had bought this beautiful throw pillow with a stag on it, like the Baratheon sigil. We swapped stags. It was very touching in our little pop-up tent at the end of the day, when we were handing them over.

:cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Queequeg on June 08, 2015, 04:07:48 PM
He's my favorite character in the books and very, very easily my favorite thing about the TV show. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 04:23:56 PM
He seems to be the one good man of Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 04:33:20 PM
I hope Brienne kills Stannis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 04:23:56 PM
He seems to be the one good man of Westeros.

Rob Snow, Fat Boy, Bannister,

I would call Jormont a good man.  I would call Tyrion a good man.  Jaime is giving appearances of being a good man.  Theon too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:39:03 PM
The transformation of Jaime was so well done in the books and the show.

Starts off as the first of the clear bad guys and turns into someone you are actually rooting for...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:37:01 PM
Jaime is giving appearances of being a good man.  Theon too.

They're both a long way from even on the scales.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
They're both a long way from even on the scales.

Theon lost his unit.  I'd say he's paid the price.

I was going to say Jaime doesn't have that much to atone for but then I remembered he gimped up gimpy boy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
They're both a long way from even on the scales.

Theon lost his unit.  I'd say he's paid the price.

I was going to say Jaime doesn't have that much to atone for but then I remembered he gimped up gimpy boy.

I forget - did Jaime have a role in the Red Wedding?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2015, 04:46:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
Theon lost his unit.  I'd say he's paid the price.

That's a matter of balancing misdeeds vs punishments, not misdeeds vs good deeds. He hasn't done a heck of a lot to make the claim that he's a "good man".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:49:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:45:41 PM
I forget - did Jaime have a role in the Red Wedding?

IIRC he was losing a hand while that was going on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 04:33:20 PM
I hope Brienne kills Stannis.

Are you going to post this every week?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 04:51:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
They're both a long way from even on the scales.

Theon lost his unit.  I'd say he's paid the price.

I was going to say Jaime doesn't have that much to atone for but then I remembered he gimped up gimpy boy.

I forget - did Jaime have a role in the Red Wedding?

Yes and no. He wasn't there, but "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" is not there for no reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 04:46:00 PM
That's a matter of balancing misdeeds vs punishments, not misdeeds vs good deeds. He hasn't done a heck of a lot to make the claim that he's a "good man".

He has felt really bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 04:53:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
They're both a long way from even on the scales.

Theon lost his unit.  I'd say he's paid the price.

I was going to say Jaime doesn't have that much to atone for but then I remembered he gimped up gimpy boy.


I forget - did Jaime have a role in the Red Wedding?

No.  That was all his father's doing.  I think there was a scene in the show where his father makes reference to what he did in a discussion with Jamie well after the fact.  Jamie didn't have any role after he was taken prisoner.  And it was after that when Rob met his bride to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 04:55:38 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 04:51:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
They're both a long way from even on the scales.

Theon lost his unit.  I'd say he's paid the price.

I was going to say Jaime doesn't have that much to atone for but then I remembered he gimped up gimpy boy.

I forget - did Jaime have a role in the Red Wedding?

Yes and no. He wasn't there, but "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" is not there for no reason.

Agreed.  But it has nothing to do with Jaime Lannister.  That was a reference to House Lannister taking revenge for Jaime being taken prisoner. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2015, 05:03:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 04:52:50 PM
He has felt really bad.

Which says there is hope for him. But he needs to do something concrete before we say he's on the road to redemption. Something like the Hound saving Arya from the Red Wedding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 08, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
Arya is a bit of an anti-Jaime. Very sympathetic at first but now turning into just another killer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 05:07:36 PM
Theon horribly murdered two children, and that is just the beginning of his record of blood and betrayal. Nothing makes him the good guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 05:09:43 PM
 This is a foul plot to discredit Stannis. This is a far cry from the vaunted man of duty who arose from the books, charging his knights to raise an army overseas to put Shireen on the throne as Shireen, Most Moé of her Name, First Shoujo of Westeros
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 08, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Why did Jon walk the wildings through the gate?

Stannis... What a cock. What a departure. This really is pushing me towards the belief that Dani/ the side of fire is the "bad" side with the Others actually being a lot nicer than they may seem.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 05:03:59 PM
Which says there is hope for him. But he needs to do something concrete before we say he's on the road to redemption. Something like the Hound saving Arya from the Red Wedding.

Timothy over Paul, eh?  :P

I don't think the Hound needed redemption.  He was always relatively good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 05:11:38 PM
I don't think the Hound needed redemption.  He was always relatively good.

Also offed a kid

Why so soft on child murder?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 05:07:36 PM
Theon horribly murdered two children, and that is just the beginning of his record of blood and betrayal. Nothing makes him the good guy.

Agreed.  Theon just realizes what a terrible mistake he made everytime he has to squat to pee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 05:22:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 05:11:38 PM
I don't think the Hound needed redemption.  He was always relatively good.

The Hound carried out the orders of one of the most sadistic people in the land.  At what point was he at all good before he left Kings Landing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 05:26:52 PM
He also rode down and murdered Mycah early on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 05:33:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2015, 05:26:52 PM
He also rode down and murdered Mycah early on.

Yeah that was under the orders of Joffrey - the most sadistic of the bunch...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Why did Jon walk the wildings through the gate?

His strategy is to increase his manpower to defend the Wall when the White Walkers attack and to reduce their numbers by removing everyone alive from North of the Wall before the attack.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 08, 2015, 06:01:42 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Stannis... What a cock. What a departure. This really is pushing me towards the belief that Dani/ the side of fire is the "bad" side with the Others actually being a lot nicer than they may seem.

:huh:

Dani is clearly the option you're supposed to be rooting for; this is made much simpler in the show by blackening Stannis and removing her nephew.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 06:01:42 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Stannis... What a cock. What a departure. This really is pushing me towards the belief that Dani/ the side of fire is the "bad" side with the Others actually being a lot nicer than they may seem.

:huh:

Dani is clearly the option you're supposed to be rooting for; this is made much simpler in the show by blackening Stannis and removing her nephew.

Yeah, the show is turning into clear heroes and villains.

Of course the last time that was made so clear in the books the heroes all died so we shall see how the books turn out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2015, 06:15:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 08, 2015, 05:14:19 PM
Also offed a kid

Why so soft on child murder?

At someone else's command, not out of cruelty. 

He protected Sansa as much as he could at King's Landing from Joffrey's cruelty.  He tried to return her to her family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 08, 2015, 06:21:46 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 06:01:42 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Stannis... What a cock. What a departure. This really is pushing me towards the belief that Dani/ the side of fire is the "bad" side with the Others actually being a lot nicer than they may seem.

:huh:

Dani is clearly the option you're supposed to be rooting for; this is made much simpler in the show by blackening Stannis and removing her nephew.

And throwing the show's most popular character to her side.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 08, 2015, 06:36:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 11:30:45 AM
Yeah, certainly no nothern troops would stand for that.

I mean, they didn't just kill her, right? They burned her alive.

here's an army that's in a really, awfully bad situation. they've probably all heard about melisandre's powers (even if few have seen it). they hear burning the kid means survival. a lot of those men, while not happy to see/hear it, probably at least respect it to some degree. their lord has just sacrificed his own daughter for all of their survival. every one of those men knows how cold stannis is, so it's not like this is a complete reversal of his character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 08, 2015, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 05:22:40 PMThe Hound carried out the orders of one of the most sadistic people in the land.  At what point was he at all good before he left Kings Landing?

can you really say someone is bad if he merely followed orders?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 08, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 01:42:42 PM
I don't think there ever was an explanation, or at least I don't recall it.  It almost certainly has to do with the cyclical seasons(/climate change) and the waning/waxing of magic power.  The dragons appeared in tune with the Red Comet, so it seems to me that they grow in line with the increase in magic in the world.  Since magic is currently increasing (in Westeros, at least), I think it reasonable to conclude that the dragons will keep growing, potentially to an immense size depending on just how much magic comes about.
[spoiler]I thought the Maesters secretely poisoned them to get rid of magic.?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 08, 2015, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 08, 2015, 06:01:42 PM:huh:

Dani is clearly the option you're supposed to be rooting for; this is made much simpler in the show by blackening Stannis and removing her nephew.

dani's who you're meant to root for in the books, too. book stannis was always going to die to someone, and there's been clear indicators throughout the story that he's not exactly a good guy. he's a sympathetic and fun character, but i bet you the books will start showing his descent into awfulness. grrm likes playing with the audience. take a bad character, make him good. take a neutral character, make him bad, then good. i'm sure stannis has purposely been written in a way to make him appear good but littered with enough character issues that it's only natural when he's made bad.

(edit) misread your post. we might not be disagreeing on this!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 08, 2015, 06:58:51 PM
http://thechive.com/2015/06/08/jorah-cant-seem-to-get-out-of-the-friend-zone-20-photos/#.z1h4ha:Alte
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 07:13:24 PM
Jeb should know better than to cast such hideous slanders against Stannis. Stannis is the law and order candidate. Stannis will restore segregation to Mississippi schools.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 07:38:53 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 08, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 01:42:42 PM
I don't think there ever was an explanation, or at least I don't recall it.  It almost certainly has to do with the cyclical seasons(/climate change) and the waning/waxing of magic power.  The dragons appeared in tune with the Red Comet, so it seems to me that they grow in line with the increase in magic in the world.  Since magic is currently increasing (in Westeros, at least), I think it reasonable to conclude that the dragons will keep growing, potentially to an immense size depending on just how much magic comes about.
[spoiler]I thought the Maesters secretely poisoned them to get rid of magic.?[/spoiler]

If you buy that story, I have a bridge to sell you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ed Anger on June 08, 2015, 07:46:59 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 07:13:24 PM
Jeb should know better than to cast such hideous slanders against Stannis. Stannis is the law and order candidate. Stannis will restore segregation to Mississippi schools.

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 08, 2015, 08:49:48 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 08, 2015, 01:52:22 PM
I thought it was because of inbreeding after most of the dragons died during the dance of the dragons.

And wasn't Belarion an unusually large dragon?
I always though that it might have had something to do with the waxing and waning of magic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 08, 2015, 08:55:28 PM
Meh episode - scattered all over the place.  I knew about the 'Drogon exit' but I still don't like it; too convenient and contrived.

In any case, episode eight was much more effective than this one.  And it saddens me to see that pretty little Crow boy will most likely attempt on John's life.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 08, 2015, 09:13:35 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 07:13:24 PM
Jeb should know better than to cast such hideous slanders against Stannis. Stannis is the law and order candidate. Stannis will restore segregation to Mississippi schools.
Stannis burned his crippled daughter.  Given your weakness for crippled girls, surely that must be the greatest possible affront to you?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 09:36:46 PM
 
QuoteStannis burned his crippled daughter.  Given your weakness for crippled girls, surely that must be the greatest possible affront to you?

Stannis has done no such thing; Shireen is his rightful heir, and Justin Massey is entrusted to seeing she is placed on the throne after Stannis becomes the given sacrifice for his people as he has seen in the fires.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 08, 2015, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 09:36:46 PM
QuoteStannis burned his crippled daughter.  Given your weakness for crippled girls, surely that must be the greatest possible affront to you?

Stannis has done no such thing; Shireen is his rightful heir, and Justin Massey is entrusted to seeing she is placed on the throne after Stannis becomes the given sacrifice for his people as he has seen in the fires.
Well, Show-Stannis did.

Book-Stannis is runnign around with a bunch of northerners (Yankees!) and has just sold himself out to foreign big business (carpetbaggers!).  Surely you must be enraged at his actions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on June 08, 2015, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:39:03 PM
The transformation of Jaime was so well done in the books and the show.

Starts off as the first of the clear bad guys and turns into someone you are actually rooting for...

I still can't root for Jamie in season 5. Although maybe it's because I just rewatched season 1. What has he done to redeem himself? He's still an attempted child murderer.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on June 08, 2015, 10:02:37 PM
 Being in allegiance with Fantasy Venice to pay dents while assembling a coterie of fantasy-scots is exactly the sort of thing that makes Stannis such a noble leader.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 10:23:38 PM
Quote from: Fate on June 08, 2015, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:39:03 PM
The transformation of Jaime was so well done in the books and the show.

Starts off as the first of the clear bad guys and turns into someone you are actually rooting for...

I still can't root for Jamie in season 5. Although maybe it's because I just rewatched season 1. What has he done to redeem himself? He's still an attempted child murderer.

He hasn't done it again!

But, seriously, this is where the show seems to be falling down in comparison.  In the books, at least, Jaime has begun to rehabilitate himself because he is nowhere near as bloodthirsty.  He is actively trying to foster peace and an end to the bloodshed in the Riverlands, for example.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 09, 2015, 12:53:17 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 10:23:38 PM
Quote from: Fate on June 08, 2015, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:39:03 PM
The transformation of Jaime was so well done in the books and the show.

Starts off as the first of the clear bad guys and turns into someone you are actually rooting for...

I still can't root for Jamie in season 5. Although maybe it's because I just rewatched season 1. What has he done to redeem himself? He's still an attempted child murderer.

He hasn't done it again!

But, seriously, this is where the show seems to be falling down in comparison.  In the books, at least, Jaime has begun to rehabilitate himself because he is nowhere near as bloodthirsty.  He is actively trying to foster peace and an end to the bloodshed in the Riverlands, for example.

Again, when I read stuff like this, I think like I am watching a different show than you. Are you saying that the show Jaimie has not changed? The fact that the change is noticeable to most reviewers who have never read the books shows that obsessive, fanatical book readers like you are in the wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 09, 2015, 09:10:54 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 08, 2015, 06:52:13 PM
dani's who you're meant to root for in the books, too. book stannis was always going to die to someone, and there's been clear indicators throughout the story that he's not exactly a good guy. he's a sympathetic and fun character, but i bet you the books will start showing his descent into awfulness. grrm likes playing with the audience. take a bad character, make him good. take a neutral character, make him bad, then good. i'm sure stannis has purposely been written in a way to make him appear good but littered with enough character issues that it's only natural when he's made bad.

The show portrayed Stannis more sympathetically than the books up until last episode
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 09, 2015, 09:21:36 AM

QuoteDani is clearly the option you're supposed to be rooting for; this is made much simpler in the show by blackening Stannis and removing her nephew
Yes. Dani is the Mary Sue.... But we see how well this works out with et with the practicalities of actually ruling.
In the grand story, the one that actually matters above the squabbles of men, stannis and Dani are on the same side. The side of fire.
Dani.... It seems likely she is going to darken quite considerably. Fire and blood it will be.


Quote from: crazy canuck on June 08, 2015, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 08, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Why did Jon walk the wildings through the gate?

His strategy is to increase his manpower to defend the Wall when the White Walkers attack and to reduce their numbers by removing everyone alive from North of the Wall before the attack.

You miss my meaning.
Why stop the ships north of the wall then march inland to castle blacks gate?
Why not sail to the shadow tower.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 09, 2015, 09:25:36 AM
Because the giant couldn't wade that far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2015, 10:34:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2015, 09:21:36 AM
Why not sail to the shadow tower.

Because the show doesn't have the budget to tell the story properly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 09, 2015, 10:41:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 09, 2015, 12:53:17 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 10:23:38 PM
Quote from: Fate on June 08, 2015, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 08, 2015, 04:39:03 PM
The transformation of Jaime was so well done in the books and the show.

Starts off as the first of the clear bad guys and turns into someone you are actually rooting for...

I still can't root for Jamie in season 5. Although maybe it's because I just rewatched season 1. What has he done to redeem himself? He's still an attempted child murderer.

He hasn't done it again!

But, seriously, this is where the show seems to be falling down in comparison.  In the books, at least, Jaime has begun to rehabilitate himself because he is nowhere near as bloodthirsty.  He is actively trying to foster peace and an end to the bloodshed in the Riverlands, for example.

Again, when I read stuff like this, I think like I am watching a different show than you. Are you saying that the show Jaimie has not changed? The fact that the change is noticeable to most reviewers who have never read the books shows that obsessive, fanatical book readers like you are in the wrong.

You need to read and understand the words "in comparison".  It serves no purpose to tell us what people who have never read the books think when we are discussing a comparison between the books and the show. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 09, 2015, 05:47:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 09, 2015, 12:53:17 AM
Again, when I read stuff like this, I think like I am watching a different show than you. Are you saying that the show Jaimie has not changed? The fact that the change is noticeable to most reviewers who have never read the books shows that obsessive, fanatical book readers like you are in the wrong.
He was doing a good job till the whole "rape my sister next to our son's dead body in a church" scene.  That decision making process to invent and show that scene still baffles me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 10, 2015, 01:47:47 AM
I could not believe they did that. That poor poor little thing. :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 10, 2015, 02:15:03 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 07:38:53 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 08, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 08, 2015, 01:42:42 PM
I don't think there ever was an explanation, or at least I don't recall it.  It almost certainly has to do with the cyclical seasons(/climate change) and the waning/waxing of magic power.  The dragons appeared in tune with the Red Comet, so it seems to me that they grow in line with the increase in magic in the world.  Since magic is currently increasing (in Westeros, at least), I think it reasonable to conclude that the dragons will keep growing, potentially to an immense size depending on just how much magic comes about.
[spoiler]I thought the Maesters secretely poisoned them to get rid of magic.?[/spoiler]

If you buy that story, I have a bridge to sell you.
Why? :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 12, 2015, 12:12:38 AM
Maybe that exact story is not true (I believe it) but the maesters certainly have it in for magic and dragons. I've read the maesters really spurred on the dance of dragons that killed most of them.

Has anyone else got world of ice and fire btw?
I expected more maps and much of it is repeated online but it is still a cool book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 12, 2015, 12:14:09 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 09, 2015, 10:34:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 09, 2015, 09:21:36 AM
Why not sail to the shadow tower.

Because the show doesn't have the budget to tell the story properly.

Could be....
But they could just show everyone walking into castle black over land.
It seems to me they went for rule of cool over sensibleness.
Unless Jon decided it was worth risking everyone north of the wall for a few days hike in order to awe the wildings/assure them they would be safe in the south.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2015, 02:43:37 PM
I just realised Stannis is John McCain of Westeros. He is not the most charismatic nor likeable, but everybody has a sort of this grudging respect for him, both because of his integrity and his experience. But then he chooses a crazy religious redhead as his running mate and it all jumps the shark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 12, 2015, 03:54:16 PM
:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 12, 2015, 04:04:15 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 12, 2015, 04:25:16 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2015, 11:52:13 AM
Trailer for season finale:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWFpo37qAU

Looks like [spoiler]the sacrifice worked. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 13, 2015, 01:26:58 PM
I wonder how many deaths we'll get tomorrow.  I suspect that we'll get at least Ramsay and Meryn Trant dead due to battles and assassinations, but now I'm also suspecting that Stannis is going to catch Brienne's sword with his face before she snatches Sansa and high-tails it.  We'll have some major action at The Wall, of course, but I wonder what other violence will be visited elsewhere?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 13, 2015, 01:42:38 PM
Jorah, maybe?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 13, 2015, 01:57:00 PM
Seems rather silly to give Jorah Greyscale only to off him later in the season.  I suppose it's possible, but his circumstances don't seem as obvious for killing as the others.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2015, 02:04:52 PM
Finally saw the scene where they crisp Crusty.  Men-at-arms #1-15 certainly looked uncomfortable.

More importantly, who inherits the throne if Stannis wins?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 13, 2015, 02:13:27 PM
stannis could legitimize gendry. or maybe there's some off-screen cousin.

i dunno if brienne is gonna survive her quest to kill stannis. stannis seems like an end-game boss daenerys defeats before turning to the white walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 14, 2015, 01:39:20 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2015, 02:04:52 PM
Finally saw the scene where they crisp Crusty.  Men-at-arms #1-15 certainly looked uncomfortable.

More importantly, who inherits the throne if Stannis wins?
In his head Melys will give him a son?
She already sort of did with the shadow magic... Next time for keeps?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 01:58:12 AM
I'm thinking Jaime and/or Myrcella is killed in the season finale. The whole Dorne seems quite pointless and too easy - so either the show writers horribly botched that one, or this is supposed to feel that way, in expectation of the last episode's BIG REVEAL.

In retrospect, it's a bit weird that noone from Danny's party (excepting Hizdar but everybody was suspecting him to be the Harpy anyway) got offed during that Harpy attack. As some reviewers pointed out, this was probably the most standard-tv-ish fight on Game of Thrones to date.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 14, 2015, 03:23:31 AM
The Dorne chapters in the books end with one of the best lines in ASoIaF, so let's see how they turn out in the TV series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 14, 2015, 05:09:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 01:58:12 AM
I'm thinking Jaime and/or Myrcella is killed in the season finale. The whole Dorne seems quite pointless and too easy - so either the show writers horribly botched that one, or this is supposed to feel that way, in expectation of the last episode's BIG REVEAL.


It's more like National Geographic's "This is Dorne" than anything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 14, 2015, 05:20:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 01:58:12 AM
The whole Dorne seems quite pointless and too easy -

Easy perhaps, but also pointed.  :D

http://thefappening.so/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Rosabell-Laurenti-Sellers-Topless-3.jpg (http://thefappening.so/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Rosabell-Laurenti-Sellers-Topless-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 06:16:26 AM
If you don't mind a bit of a spoiler, here's the season finale's "previously on Game of Thrones":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btOBSM9mrk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2015, 09:56:42 AM
WTF [spoiler]Benjen Stark?![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 14, 2015, 03:00:58 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 13, 2015, 01:57:00 PM
Seems rather silly to give Jorah Greyscale only to off him later in the season.  I suppose it's possible, but his circumstances don't seem as obvious for killing as the others.
I think you're right that the greyscale is going to be what does him in the end. I am just wondering if they're not going to pay that off sooner rather than later. Though I don't really know much about the disease other than it turns you into a 28 days later rage zombie, so it might have a while to go before it gets that far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 14, 2015, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 13, 2015, 02:13:27 PM
stannis could legitimize gendry. or maybe there's some off-screen cousin.

i dunno if brienne is gonna survive her quest to kill stannis. stannis seems like an end-game boss daenerys defeats before turning to the white walkers.

[spoiler]guess i was wrong![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 09:36:53 PM
Berkut's wife: "I hate this show!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 14, 2015, 09:45:31 PM
Season finale was a real downer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2015, 10:01:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2015, 09:36:53 PM
Berkut's wife: "I hate this show!"

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2015, 10:02:16 PM
My assessment of the episode : "But did you see him die?"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 14, 2015, 10:19:55 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 14, 2015, 10:02:16 PM
My assessment of the episode : "But did you see him die?"

[spoiler]it was a good conclusion to his story arc. he tried so hard that he lost it all. plus, melisandre = rainmaker that led him astray.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 14, 2015, 11:54:00 PM
Bad CGI job on walk of shame.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 11:57:53 PM
Watching now so expect a stream of posts.

No.1: Brienne you had one fucking job!!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 12:00:44 AM
Quote from: katmai on June 14, 2015, 11:54:00 PM
Bad CGI job on walk of shame.

I sadly found out that Lena Headey had a body double at portions of that walk.   :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 15, 2015, 12:08:05 AM
Yeah it was easy to tell from start if seen 300 that wasn't her :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 12:09:08 AM
Is it too late to cast the body double?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 12:25:59 AM
Drogon was all: Mooooooooom, I don't want to go to school today.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 12:46:05 AM
Goddamnit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 12:58:53 AM
Also, I love one reviewer referring to Mereen as the "Island of Misfit Toys".  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:34 AM
By the way, it just occurred to me - Rhaegal and Vissaryon - forgotten like a couple of puppies in a sunny Walmart parking lot?  :cry:

A DRAGON IS NOT A TOYBLOWTORCH!  :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 15, 2015, 02:05:37 AM
Well this is something I never knew I needed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 15, 2015, 04:54:59 AM
Goddamnit. Could they possibly have made any more cliffhangers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 05:45:48 AM
I thought it was a brillant finale - and for the first time we are out of books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 15, 2015, 05:58:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 05:45:48 AM
I thought it was a brillant finale - and for the first time we are out of books.

Well, Martin "hopes" to have TWoW out before April next year. So yes, we're out of books. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 15, 2015, 06:01:24 AM
I see FiveThirtyEight predicts its latest publication date to August 2018. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 15, 2015, 06:17:14 AM
Sounds a bit optimistic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 10:25:58 AM
One thing I found a little frustrating is that Jon never really tries to pitch what he sees as the core issue to the Nights Watch.

Which is that the Wall, and the Watch, are not actually there to fight Wildlings. Sure, that is all they HAVE fought or the last thousand years or whatever, but nobody builds an 800 ft tall wall of ice to protect against a bunch of ragtag wildlings. It is a reasonable mistake to have forgotten that, but now it is time to re-dedicate the Watch to it's real purpose - defending Westeros from the walkers.

It never really seems well articulated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2015, 10:35:28 AM
Eddie Stark was a good guardian to have for learning sword fighting and such.  Maybe not the best for teaching public speaking and Aristotelian rhetoric.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 11:08:13 AM
Maybe it's hype talking, but I thought this was one of the best and most memorable season's finale since season 1. But unlike season 1 (which was about hope and new beginnings) this one was about endings or (seemingly) coming back to square one. I am already excited for the next season.  :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 10:25:58 AM
One thing I found a little frustrating is that Jon never really tries to pitch what he sees as the core issue to the Nights Watch.

Which is that the Wall, and the Watch, are not actually there to fight Wildlings. Sure, that is all they HAVE fought or the last thousand years or whatever, but nobody builds an 800 ft tall wall of ice to protect against a bunch of ragtag wildlings. It is a reasonable mistake to have forgotten that, but now it is time to re-dedicate the Watch to it's real purpose - defending Westeros from the walkers.

It never really seems well articulated.

I think he did a fair job of articulating that view in prior episodes.  Although I agree the show could have done a better job of it.  They had a lot of material to draw upon from the books to help the writers of the show along.

Very anti-climactic end for Stannis (although hopefully mercy was shown so his story arc can continue).  And again a result that can only be obtained by a significant dumbing down of the character from that of the books - from his decision to burn his daughter in front of his troops to his decision to launch an attack on Winterfell with such a depleted force. 

Lastly where did all those Bolton troops come from?  Did the sell swords who left Stannis become employed by Bolton?  Is that the show's proxy for the much more involved plot line in the books of Stannis not having as much support in the North as he thinks? 

All in all a very unsatisfying finale.  Not so much cliffhangers as a bunch of unfinished stories.  So I guess in one respect the show is mirroring the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 15, 2015, 11:39:12 AM
Overall, I thought this probably the weakest season so far and doesn't bode well regarding the showrunners' coming up with good independent material. Most of the major departures such as Sansa coming to Winterfell and Stannis burning his daughter were rather unsatisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 10:25:58 AM
One thing I found a little frustrating is that Jon never really tries to pitch what he sees as the core issue to the Nights Watch.

Which is that the Wall, and the Watch, are not actually there to fight Wildlings. Sure, that is all they HAVE fought or the last thousand years or whatever, but nobody builds an 800 ft tall wall of ice to protect against a bunch of ragtag wildlings. It is a reasonable mistake to have forgotten that, but now it is time to re-dedicate the Watch to it's real purpose - defending Westeros from the walkers.

It never really seems well articulated.

I think he did a fair job of articulating that view in prior episodes.  Although I agree the show could have done a better job of it.  They had a lot of material to draw upon from the books to help the writers of the show along.

I think they do an ok job to articulate that to the viewer - the viewer gets that, but I never got the feeling the rank and file of the Night's Watch ever gets that, or that it is ever made very clear to them, and that includes the books, btw. It frustrated me reading it as well, simply because it is pretty damn obvious that stressing out about Wilidlings while you have a proven army of the undead is pretty fucking stupid.

I didn't even think this part of the story worked very well in the books, much less the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2015, 12:29:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 10:25:58 AM
One thing I found a little frustrating is that Jon never really tries to pitch what he sees as the core issue to the Nights Watch.

Which is that the Wall, and the Watch, are not actually there to fight Wildlings. Sure, that is all they HAVE fought or the last thousand years or whatever, but nobody builds an 800 ft tall wall of ice to protect against a bunch of ragtag wildlings. It is a reasonable mistake to have forgotten that, but now it is time to re-dedicate the Watch to it's real purpose - defending Westeros from the walkers.

It never really seems well articulated.

I think he did a fair job of articulating that view in prior episodes.  Although I agree the show could have done a better job of it.  They had a lot of material to draw upon from the books to help the writers of the show along.

I think they do an ok job to articulate that to the viewer - the viewer gets that, but I never got the feeling the rank and file of the Night's Watch ever gets that, or that it is ever made very clear to them, and that includes the books, btw. It frustrated me reading it as well, simply because it is pretty damn obvious that stressing out about Wilidlings while you have a proven army of the undead is pretty fucking stupid.

I didn't even think this part of the story worked very well in the books, much less the show.

IMO it is much better explained in the books, it is simmering for the whole fifth book with no first hand account of Hardhome, while in the show all the resentment boiled on to mutiny in barely 4 episodes. I mean, Jon wasn't even elected Lord Commander until the 2nd or 3rd episode of the season, and by the 7th he was already getting veiled death threats.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:43:08 PM
It is much better explained in the books, or at least more thoroughly reported. I still thought it didn't make much sense though - it requires the Nights Watch to be almost suicidally obtuse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2015, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:43:08 PM
It is much better explained in the books, or at least more thoroughly reported. I still thought it didn't make much sense though - it requires the Nights Watch to be almost suicidally obtuse.

Oh, they were obtuse indeed, but at least it got a proper development.

Also, did Melissandre run off with the last horse from Stannis' camp?

Edit: 2nd also, what about Stannis' reputation as an excellent commander? He got caught by the Boltons with his pants badly badly down. So much for him being a kick ass general.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
I didn't even think this part of the story worked very well in the books, much less the show.

I disagree.  In the books Jon had much more support and it is really a disaffected minority that does him in.  The show portrays it as an all out mutiny.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 01:19:23 PM
I think I am going to give up on this thread in the next season. It seems there is a group of maybe 3 or 4 posters who are clearly not enjoying the show but are bent on ruining it for everyone else by nitpicking every single perceived flaw. I hope you find some sort of interesting stuff to do with your private lives, gentlemen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2015, 01:21:59 PM
Stannis- Well, that battle was an anti-climax.
It just looked to be getting good then suddenly  cut to the end, Stannis has lost.
I thought it would continue longer and we would see one of the northern flanks turning on the Boltons.
I suspect here they've diverged from where the books are heading to try and cut off a unnecessary thread.

Arya- when did she learn to do that? That came on quick!
Though I do wonder why she needed the disguise...she is a young girl herself afterall.

Dorne...feels a bit pointless. Such a big deal was made of introducing the sand snakes too.

Tyrion- way too much of a setup for the next series. Almost looked like they're setting up a spinoff even, Tyrion the Mayor...

Jon- Seems the theory that he will be resurrected and thus released from his vow is going to come true. The timing of showing Mel entering followed by the Caesering was clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 01:19:23 PM
I think I am going to give up on this thread in the next season. It seems there is a group of maybe 3 or 4 posters who are clearly not enjoying the show but are bent on ruining it for everyone else by nitpicking every single perceived flaw. I hope you find some sort of interesting stuff to do with your private lives, gentlemen.

Your inability to comprehend people discussing a show they love critically probably suggests that you should avoid this thread in the future in order to protect yourself from such unpleasantness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 01:25:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
I didn't even think this part of the story worked very well in the books, much less the show.

I disagree.  In the books Jon had much more support and it is really a disaffected minority that does him in.  The show portrays it as an all out mutiny.

Hmmm, that could be right - I honestly don't remember enough from the book as to how exactly it went down.

Certainly in the books the process of them becoming unhappy took MUCH longer. The wildlings were through the wall for months, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2015, 01:27:12 PM
Marty rage-quits the GoT thread.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 01:27:37 PM
I wonder why they did the Dany end scene without the dragon. In the books, the dragon is next to her when the riders arrive. Which gives a completely different look to the whole scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2015, 01:34:20 PM
In the book wasn't there also some ambiguity over whether the riders (not so many of them iirc) were hers or another khal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 01:42:59 PM
She didn't have a khalasar in the books anymore. The khalasar in the books is one of the splinters of Drogo's khalasar. It's not clear if they would respect her as their former khaleesi though. Unlikely considering their traditions which would have required her to go to Vaes Dothrak as a widow. But then the dragon makes all the difference. And it is missing in the TV show...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2015, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 01:42:59 PM
She didn't have a khalasar in the books anymore. The khalasar in the books is one of the splinters of Drogo's khalasar. It's not clear if they would respect her as their former khaleesi though. Unlikely considering their traditions which would have required her to go to Vaes Dothrak as a widow. But then the dragon makes all the difference. And it is missing in the TV show...
She still had a few guys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 01:55:16 PM
With Stannis death, the first of the great houses is completely wiped out.

Quentyn Martell surely is in deadly danger on that ship now, Doran is not shown to have any other children (unlike the books).
The Arryns have one sickly boy left.
The Tullys have an imprisoned lord, but no heirs.
The Tyrells have a gay heir who is in the hands of religious fanatics awaiting trial.
The Greyjoys have a disawoved heir who will not have any more heirs.
The Lannisters have King Tommen left, but at least for the time being, he has no queen. They also have Tyrion (kinslayer), Jaime (kingsguard) and Lancel (fanatic), but all of these are unlikely heirs to their House.
The Targaryens have a queen, that is likely barren left.

The Starks have four children left alive with Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon. Who would have thought that they might end up in the most likely position to continue to exist as a great house after this war. :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2015, 02:13:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 01:25:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
I didn't even think this part of the story worked very well in the books, much less the show.

I disagree.  In the books Jon had much more support and it is really a disaffected minority that does him in.  The show portrays it as an all out mutiny.

Hmmm, that could be right - I honestly don't remember enough from the book as to how exactly it went down.

Certainly in the books the process of them becoming unhappy took MUCH longer. The wildlings were through the wall for months, right?

In the books there was also the factor of Jon Snow apparently to the eyes of many in the Watch throwing his lot with Stannis in the struggle for the North, with Selyse, Shireen and Melissandre staying in Castle Black. Of course this is not so clear cut in the show. In the book there was also much more mingling with the Wildlings, even to the point of Jon arranging a political wedding for a wildling leader (a Thenn, IIRC) to a runaway northern noblewoman, so his lot was also thrown much more with the wildlings then. The tipping point seems to be Ramsay's "letter", which apparently makes Jon want to ride down to Winterfell, and it's at that point that he gets Caesared.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 15, 2015, 02:16:18 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 01:55:16 PM
With Stannis death, the first of the great houses is completely wiped out.

Quentyn Martell surely is in deadly danger on that ship now, Doran is not shown to have any other children (unlike the books).
The Arryns have one sickly boy left.
The Tullys have an imprisoned lord, but no heirs.
The Tyrells have a gay heir who is in the hands of religious fanatics awaiting trial.
The Greyjoys have a disawoved heir who will not have any more heirs.
The Lannisters have King Tommen left, but at least for the time being, he has no queen. They also have Tyrion (kinslayer), Jaime (kingsguard) and Lancel (fanatic), but all of these are unlikely heirs to their House.
The Targaryens have a queen, that is likely barren left.

The Starks have four children left alive with Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon. Who would have thought that they might end up in the most likely position to continue to exist as a great house after this war. :lol:

Balon Greyjoy has several brothers and a daughter still around. Blackfish Tully is somewhere, I guess. The Lannisters have Kevan and a brood of cousins and cadet branches around.

As for the Starks, I can't see Bran doing much in the heir producing business.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
They haven't developed the Vale very much in the show, either, but I suspect that they'll introduce Harold Hardyng at some point anyway.  He is the heir to the Vale after sickly Robert's death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 15, 2015, 02:40:20 PM
I'd like the writers to be the next ones to be killed now. Bunch of Ruperts the lot of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 02:46:17 PM
:unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2015, 03:15:29 PM
Impetuous cavalrymen with questionable tactical sense?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 15, 2015, 03:22:36 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2015, 03:15:29 PM
Impetuous cavalrymen with questionable tactical sense?

:lol:

Not too far off.

QuoteRupert
British Army slang for an Officer, but particularly an Officer that is upper-middle class or above, and has a total lack of skill or common-sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 03:29:37 PM
Was anyone else wincing and worrying that Myrcella, in the midst of her speech, was about to express that she was in love with Jaime?  I breathed a huge sigh of relief, instead, when it just turned into knowing he was her father.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 15, 2015, 03:41:53 PM
I was more worried that Jon might get into some trouble with the rest of the Night's Watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 03:29:37 PM
Was anyone else wincing and worrying that Myrcella, in the midst of her speech, was about to express that she was in love with Jaime?  I breathed a huge sigh of relief, instead, when it just turned into knowing he was her father.

After watching her receive the kiss of death I was more concerned that she might give Jamie a fatherly kiss and have him offed too.  That poisoning was going to be used was obvious when the show had the scene in the jail.  But I thought it would be a bit more subtle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 15, 2015, 05:18:52 PM
I did expect it would be Jamie who would go.
Or perhaps Bron (and what a sad day that would be). Though I really don't get the thing between him and the cute sand snake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 15, 2015, 05:18:52 PM
Though I really don't get the thing between him and the cute sand snake.

Neither do I.  The prison cell scene was a bit of awkward foreshadowing to show that the sand snakes carry around the only antidote for their poison of choice. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 15, 2015, 05:53:02 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 15, 2015, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 15, 2015, 05:18:52 PM
Though I really don't get the thing between him and the cute sand snake.

Neither do I.  The prison cell scene was a bit of awkward foreshadowing to show that the sand snakes carry around the only antidote for their poison of choice.

I guess Bronn is sort of a crowd favourite, and that the clumsy bit of storytelling involved him just because.

I would not go as far as to say this last season is poorly written, but there are some plotlines that just aren't that great. Bronn and Jaime's Great Dornish Adventure for starters.
After that episode, I suppose I just have to hope Tyrion survives now.

Bring on season six. Now, plz.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 15, 2015, 08:53:18 PM
These fabled dragon riders are never going to show up, eh.

Many pawns in the war of Littlefinger vs Varys have also fallen. Altho, Littlefinger needs a new army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on June 15, 2015, 09:19:42 PM
I was kind of disappointed in this season, mainly because i was hoping that it would move past the books this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 15, 2015, 10:18:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2015, 12:43:08 PM
I still thought it didn't make much sense though - it requires the Nights Watch to be almost suicidally obtuse.
it wouldn't be the first time in history.  Nor fiction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 15, 2015, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 01:55:16 PM
The Greyjoys have a disawoved heir who will not have any more heirs.
in the books, the Greyjoys have their run to decide who will be the next heir, namely Balon's long lost brother and Theon's sister.  They totally skipped this story and Bran's story from the show this year, so I guess they'll come back with that next year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2015, 11:31:58 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F0.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com%2F49%2F58%2Ff785c533bd0588a9980381a807df7f87.jpg&hash=3dba7acf0996d3738fac937dbfd20b0e168952de)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Lettow77 on June 16, 2015, 12:06:54 AM
Friendly reminder that Balon has now won the War of Five Kings on endurance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:43:44 AM
:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on June 16, 2015, 12:46:30 AM
:D What is dead may never appear again on this program.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 02:14:55 AM
Given that the GoT casting calls for season 6 are looking for actors closely resembling Euron and Victaryon, it is a safe bet in season 6 we will go back to Iron Islands. Hopefully it will be better than the Dorne detour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on June 16, 2015, 02:20:16 AM
http://rt.com/politics/267235-russia-series-ban-thrones/

QuoteAnti-gay lawmaker targets Game of Thrones as threat to traditional values

A pro-Christian politician is suggesting an official rating of various creative works, saying such a measure would help to protect the population from various harmful products, such as the popular TV series, Game of Thrones.

Vitaliy Milonov of the St. Petersburg city legislature addressed the Russian Culture Ministry with an initiative to develop the "concept of defending the national information space," the popular Russian daily Izvestia reported on Monday.

The essence of Milonov's draft is that the authorities issue a rating for all creative works, giving them "quality marks" if they match the nation's traditional values, and attaching negative appraisals to potentially harmful products. The lawmaker holds that the general public will bear this rating in mind when making choices regarding entertainment.

In comments with Izvestia, Milonov said that virtually all Western cultural products were destructive for Russian traditional values and this especially applied to many famous works.

"They are infusing all quality works with certain ideological content. This content is not crucial for the main idea of the work, because this would make it too direct, but still they demonstrate that the ideas that had once been inadmissible are now normal."

He added that such an approach prevented creative works from being listed as propaganda as the main influence was on the subconscious level. "Freedom of expression is just a flashy label that conceals the cancerogenic ideological additives," Milonov said.

The lawmaker said that the cult US television series Game of Thrones was a typical example of such a harmful product. He blamed the authors for picturing "every tenth character" of the series as having some sexual deviation and suggested this was done on purpose, so that the public saw such deviations as the norm.

At the same time, Milonov admitted to reporters that he had not seen a single episode.

The cultural rating isn't the first or the most eccentric suggestion drafted by Milonov over the past few years. He has in the past proposed outlawing child beauty pageants, organizing the forced resettlement of homeless people to rural areas, and introducing responsibility for fake accounts in social networks.

Milonov's most known work is the St. Petersburg regional law that bans promoting homosexuality to minors – a motion that has been passed on a nationwide level, despite widespread criticism in Russia and abroad.

Milonov's relentless campaigning has attracted a lot of public and media attention, but it also had some negative consequences for the lawmaker. In November last year, Upper House MP Konstantin Dobrynin asked law enforcers to probe Milonov over public calls for terrorism, saying the St. Petersburg politician has repeatedly and insistently made statements banned under the Federal Law against Extremism. However, this request was turned down by prosecutors.

Yeah, Game of Thrones is a show people turn to when they look for moral guidance.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 02:29:20 AM
I think it is helpful to show the face of the politician:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fenrussie.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2Fvitaly_milonov.jpg&hash=4524f770d12bce299837a571b90cde044302441e)

Isn't it funny how so many of the most vocal anti-gay people look like retarded pedophiles?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on June 16, 2015, 04:56:02 AM
FINALLY Season 5 is available on demand for those of us with the wrong digital TV provider. How far back do I need to skip to see the comments from the beginning of the season without reading spoilers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 16, 2015, 05:17:08 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2015, 04:56:02 AM
FINALLY Season 5 is available on demand for those of us with the wrong digital TV provider. How far back do I need to skip to see the comments from the beginning of the season without reading spoilers?

Too far, most of it is just a few people discussing whether or not this show is stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 06:23:27 AM
My newest theory is that the goal of the writers is to make everybody hate everybody in Westeros so much that by the end of the show, audiences are actually rooting for White Walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 06:43:24 AM
Well another year of waiting.  I wonder how wide the gap between the books and the show will be by the end of the seventh (and presumably final) season?  Btw, did Sansa jump to her death?  or was there frozen water down below?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 16, 2015, 07:09:26 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 06:43:24 AM
Btw, did Sansa jump to her death?  or was there frozen water down below?



G.

I'm hoping for a frozen moat and one Brienne fishing them out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 07:51:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 06:23:27 AM
My newest theory is that the goal of the writers is to make everybody hate everybody in Westeros so much that by the end of the show, audiences are actually rooting for White Walkers.

I was actually considering the idea that overall Martin thinks the truly righteous people in Westeros are in fact the Willdlings, and this entire thing is their story about how they finally defeated thousands of years of exile and oppression to bring democracy and freedom to Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 08:49:42 AM
Incidentally, I wonder how people view Cersei's confession? I have seen a number of reviewers calling her out on refusing to admit having sex with Jaime and seeing this as another point against her (even though understandeable, as the punishment for incest is probably greater than adultery). To me, while Cersei is obviously always self-serving to a degree, this was above all else a practical example of her Prime Directive: Protect the Children. No matter what she does, she will never do anything that endangers her kids - and, clearly, revealing she had an incestuous relationship with her brother would put the lives of Tommen and Myrcella in a great danger (not that it helped Myrcella a lot).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 16, 2015, 08:56:31 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 06:43:24 AMBtw, did Sansa jump to her death?  or was there frozen water down below?

In the books Theon and Jeyne Poole jumped over a snow bank that would cushion the fall. In the show the scene was so rushed that I couldn't clearly see what they were throwing themselves at. Anyway, I'd count on both returning for the next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 09:18:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 08:49:42 AM
No matter what she does, she will never do anything that endangers her kids

Not intentionally, at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 09:48:30 AM
Now that Cercei is back at the Red Keep, and with that Frankenstein monster at her side, I have a feeling there will be a reckoning with that High Priest and his fanatics.  At times I thought her repentance felt genuine during that long walk but I think when she hears about Myrcella she'll lose it and go on a rampage.  Perhaps that is what will prompt Jamie to kill her?



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 09:50:01 AM
Why do you think Jaime will kill her?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 16, 2015, 10:00:28 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 16, 2015, 09:50:01 AM
Why do you think Jaime will kill her?

The prophecy she received when she was a girl that we saw in a flashback earlier in the season. It said that her younger brother would kill her and she always assumed it'd be Tyrion, but Jaime is also her younger brother, as she was the firstborn of the twins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 10:37:54 AM
Ah. That's a good touch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 10:39:46 AM
Also there is a school of thought that he is Azor Ahai apparently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 10:45:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 02:14:55 AM
Hopefully it will be better than the Dorne detour.

Lets hope so.  The show butchered that part of the story.


QuoteI was actually considering the idea that overall Martin thinks the truly righteous people in Westeros are in fact the Willdlings, and this entire thing is their story about how they finally defeated thousands of years of exile and oppression to bring democracy and freedom to Westeros.


@ Berkut,

Yeah, there a number of things that point to that:

spoiler quotes for those who have not read the books.

1) Bran's story arc and the power of the Old Gods;
2) Jon's attempt to save the Wildings ([spoiler]and the fact that Jon has survived the attack in some form although it is not clear how the show will deal with this since they didn't follow the books regarding his growing power to be like Bran - which again relates to the power of the Old Gods[/spoiler];
3) I anticipate that the Wildings will be the a significant part of the army Daenerys uses to conquer the Seven Kingdoms and save it from the White Walkers
4) [spoiler]I think Jon will have a role in that - he will be viewed as a savior by the Wildings and he will have good reason to support her cause.  Besides Tyrion (now the Queen's advisor) treated him with kindness when Jon had no friends[/spoiler]
5) Daenerys, the Wildings, Tyrion and [spoiler]Jon[/spoiler] are the underdogs in the story who are also the most virtuous and their interests align.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 10:53:40 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 09:48:30 AM
Now that Cercei is back at the Red Keep, and with that Frankenstein monster at her side, I have a feeling there will be a reckoning with that High Priest and his fanatics.  At times I thought her repentance felt genuine during that long walk but I think when she hears about Myrcella she'll lose it and go on a rampage.  Perhaps that is what will prompt Jamie to kill her?



G.

I didn't get the sense there was anything repentant about what Cersei did.  She kept her eyes on the Keep as her goal.  Now that she is there she believes that she will be able to get her vengeance but I suspect that what will happen is she will frustrated because the King will not want to move against the High Priest while his wife is still in custody.  If that happens a good guess is that Cersei will act out in some way that finally causes Jamie to stop her.  I disagree with Marti.  Cersei isn't all about her kids.  She is all about Cersei and her children have been the best way thus far to further her own interests. 

Consider that fact that she was perfectly willing to undermine the authority of her son, the King, but empowering the High Priest to remove the Queen.  Cersei is motivated to get what Cersei wants.  Jamie has now had two children killed.  He will do whatever it takes to protect his last child. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2015, 11:02:22 AM
If she was truly repentant she wouldn't have lied so clearly about having had dealings with someone other than lancel.
Interesting that the high septon let her go... Wonder what is game is.... It seems unlikely he would have been outplayed.

Interesting to see in the media jon snows actor insisting he definitely won't be back. And he has been bitching on chat shows about his hair and wanting to cut it and do new things.
Wouldn't that be a big surprise if it turned out Jon truly wasn't to come back.
Problem is though, where would that leave is for pov on the wall
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 11:04:59 AM
Melisandre is at The Wall.  As is Davos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 10:53:40 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 09:48:30 AM
Now that Cercei is back at the Red Keep, and with that Frankenstein monster at her side, I have a feeling there will be a reckoning with that High Priest and his fanatics.  At times I thought her repentance felt genuine during that long walk but I think when she hears about Myrcella she'll lose it and go on a rampage.  Perhaps that is what will prompt Jamie to kill her?



G.

I didn't get the sense there was anything repentant about what Cersei did.  She kept her eyes on the Keep as her goal.  Now that she is there she believes that she will be able to get her vengeance but I suspect that what will happen is she will frustrated because the King will not want to move against the High Priest while his wife is still in custody.  If that happens a good guess is that Cersei will act out in some way that finally causes Jamie to stop her.  I disagree with Marti.  Cersei isn't all about her kids.  She is all about Cersei and her children have been the best way thus far to further her own interests. 

Consider that fact that she was perfectly willing to undermine the authority of her son, the King, but empowering the High Priest to remove the Queen.  Cersei is motivated to get what Cersei wants.  Jamie has now had two children killed.  He will do whatever it takes to protect his last child.

I disagree. I think she is the (dumb) Mamma Bear. I think she would sacrifice herself to save her children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:10:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....

I think the Sparrow in fact is about "spiritual" matters only. As some reviewer pointed out, he is the Westerosi Charles Manson. For all the benign face he puts on, this is not an inaccurate description.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....

I don't think so.  The Septon appears to be motivated to create a Theocracy.  There are several lines in the show (and the books are much more detailed) about his references to the power the Church once had.  The people support the Septon.  If the king is shown to be a bastard born of incest that would serve the Septon's interest very well.   Cersei lied to him about the incest.  He warned her about the seriousness of doing that.  He will likely use that as a tool to bring down the Royal house and impose religious rule over the land.

edit:  That story arc would also set up a nice showdown between the followers of Old Gods and the New.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
I disagree. I think she is the (dumb) Mamma Bear. I think she would sacrifice herself to save her children.

There are many things that could be said about Cercei.  Being dumb is definitely not one of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 10:53:40 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 16, 2015, 09:48:30 AM
Now that Cercei is back at the Red Keep, and with that Frankenstein monster at her side, I have a feeling there will be a reckoning with that High Priest and his fanatics.  At times I thought her repentance felt genuine during that long walk but I think when she hears about Myrcella she'll lose it and go on a rampage.  Perhaps that is what will prompt Jamie to kill her?



G.

I didn't get the sense there was anything repentant about what Cersei did.  She kept her eyes on the Keep as her goal.  Now that she is there she believes that she will be able to get her vengeance but I suspect that what will happen is she will frustrated because the King will not want to move against the High Priest while his wife is still in custody.  If that happens a good guess is that Cersei will act out in some way that finally causes Jamie to stop her.  I disagree with Marti.  Cersei isn't all about her kids.  She is all about Cersei and her children have been the best way thus far to further her own interests. 

Consider that fact that she was perfectly willing to undermine the authority of her son, the King, but empowering the High Priest to remove the Queen.  Cersei is motivated to get what Cersei wants.  Jamie has now had two children killed.  He will do whatever it takes to protect his last child.

I disagree. I think she is the (dumb) Mamma Bear. I think she would sacrifice herself to save her children.

Gotta agree with Malthus. I think Cersei is perfectly willing to undermine her son if she thinks she needs to do that to protect him in the long run.

But I think she would give up anything to protect her children. The problem is she is an idiot when it comes to seeing anything beyond the end of next week, and hence makes terrible choices (even for her childrens sake) because she has no long term vision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:17:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:10:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....

I think the Sparrow in fact is about "spiritual" matters only. As some reviewer pointed out, he is the Westerosi Charles Manson. For all the benign face he puts on, this is not an inaccurate description.

I find that very unlikely - simply because it won't work, and cannot work. You cannot be in his position and survive without being very politically crafty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:18:03 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
I disagree. I think she is the (dumb) Mamma Bear. I think she would sacrifice herself to save her children.

There are many things that could be said about Cercei.  Being dumb is definitely not one of them.

I think the opposite is true. She has consistently made terrible choices that have resulted in horrible outcomes for her family.

Tywin was right - she is a reactionary dumbass. Crafty in the short term, but foolish in the long run.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2015, 11:20:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:10:37 AM
I think the Sparrow in fact is about "spiritual" matters only. As some reviewer pointed out, he is the Westerosi Charles Manson. For all the benign face he puts on, this is not an inaccurate description.

I was going to post something similar, that he is the only sincere man in Westeros, but I think on reflection the creation of the Templars demonstrates a bit of the old Machievell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:18:03 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
I disagree. I think she is the (dumb) Mamma Bear. I think she would sacrifice herself to save her children.

There are many things that could be said about Cercei.  Being dumb is definitely not one of them.

I think the opposite is true. She has consistently made terrible choices that have resulted in horrible outcomes for her family.

Tywin was right - she is a reactionary dumbass. Crafty in the short term, but foolish in the long run.

And yet she has survived all these years married to the King, killing his real child, giving birth to three more bastard children fathered by her brother, arranging for the death of the King etc etc etc.  If she is so daft she would never had survived all this time.  Again part of the problem is that the show necessarily dumbs down the characters to such a degree that even Tyrion (probably the smartest one of the lot) ends up making obviously stupid decisions (ie for some reason after enduring the hardship of concealing his identity,  feeling the need to go to an inn and brag about being a Lannister) for the sake of making the story move quickly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:25:22 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2015, 11:20:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:10:37 AM
I think the Sparrow in fact is about "spiritual" matters only. As some reviewer pointed out, he is the Westerosi Charles Manson. For all the benign face he puts on, this is not an inaccurate description.

I was going to post something similar, that he is the only sincere man in Westeros, but I think on reflection the creation of the Templars demonstrates a bit of the old Machievell.

The fact that he did release Cersei makes it pretty clear he is not about just the spiritual, since it is obviously true that she has not told him the entire truth.

I think it is also important to realize that there is more going on than the show is letting us see - there are pressures put on the septon by others of course, and his decision to release Cersei was almost certainly not entirely just informed by his conversations with her...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2015, 11:47:31 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....

I don't think so.  The Septon appears to be motivated to create a Theocracy.  There are several lines in the show (and the books are much more detailed) about his references to the power the Church once had.  The people support the Septon.  If the king is shown to be a bastard born of incest that would serve the Septon's interest very well.   Cersei lied to him about the incest.  He warned her about the seriousness of doing that.  He will likely use that as a tool to bring down the Royal house and impose religious rule over the land.

edit:  That story arc would also set up a nice showdown between the followers of Old Gods and the New.
Or for Dani to come marching in and save the day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 12:02:10 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 16, 2015, 11:47:31 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....

I don't think so.  The Septon appears to be motivated to create a Theocracy.  There are several lines in the show (and the books are much more detailed) about his references to the power the Church once had.  The people support the Septon.  If the king is shown to be a bastard born of incest that would serve the Septon's interest very well.   Cersei lied to him about the incest.  He warned her about the seriousness of doing that.  He will likely use that as a tool to bring down the Royal house and impose religious rule over the land.

edit:  That story arc would also set up a nice showdown between the followers of Old Gods and the New.
Or for Dani to come marching in and save the day.

Yeah, exactly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 11:07:15 AM
Unless the sparrow is TRULY only interested in spiritual matters, he cannot possibly want to push Cersei too far on the incest thing.

An acknowledgement of incest would result in a massive political upheaval in Kings Landing, that even the sparrow would likely not survive.

That would invalidate the king himself, and the Lannisters completely. What then? It was Cersei, after all, who allowed the re-arming of the Faith Militant - would some new king (Stannis?) go along with that? Not likely.

The septon is walking a very careful line....

I don't think so.  The Septon appears to be motivated to create a Theocracy.  There are several lines in the show (and the books are much more detailed) about his references to the power the Church once had.  The people support the Septon.  If the king is shown to be a bastard born of incest that would serve the Septon's interest very well.   Cersei lied to him about the incest.  He warned her about the seriousness of doing that.  He will likely use that as a tool to bring down the Royal house and impose religious rule over the land.

edit:  That story arc would also set up a nice showdown between the followers of Old Gods and the New.
in the books, that story is settled, she had trial by combat, her champion won.
In the series, the High Septon says she will have a trial, and we see her new champion, so I'm guessing it's leaning in the same direction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:14:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
in the books, that story is settled, she had trial by combat, her champion won.

:wacko:  You are misinformed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 16, 2015, 12:17:20 PM
What's the thing with Maester Pycelle pretending to be more old and frail than he is?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:20:19 PM
He wants to look like a shaky, old buffoon so that people underestimate what he's up to.  Presumably, it's to appear weak and foolish when, in fact, he's rather crafty.  By appearing harmless, he keeps his seat of influence without anyone suspecting him of anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
in the books, that story is settled.

How was it settled?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:14:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
in the books, that story is settled, she had trial by combat, her champion won.

:wacko:  You are misinformed.
it seems so.  I thought it was resolved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 16, 2015, 12:55:36 PM
I have to admit I'm enjoying this banter more than I did the books. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:57:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 16, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
in the books, that story is settled.

How was it settled?
I thought she requested a trial by combat with her new champion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:59:31 PM
I think you were having a fan-fiction moment.

That being said, it is almost certain she is going to request a trial by combat.  Ser Clega--er, ROBERT STRONG will be her chosen champion, while the Faith will name theirs.  I have my theories as to who their champion will be, and will be rather disappointed in the narrative if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 16, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:59:31 PMI have my theories as to who their champion will be, and will be rather disappointed in the narrative if I am wrong.

Do share them, the nuttier the better.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 16, 2015, 01:09:55 PM
Jamie Lannister!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 01:10:57 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:59:31 PM
I think you were having a fan-fiction moment.

That being said, it is almost certain she is going to request a trial by combat.  Ser Clega--er, ROBERT STRONG will be her chosen champion, while the Faith will name theirs.  I have my theories as to who their champion will be, and will be rather disappointed in the narrative if I am wrong.

My take on it is that while FrankenClegan will be selected by Cercei the Septon is going to be more crafty than that.  There is going to be some ancient rite of the Church that he will draw upon so that Cersei will not escape judgment so easily.  I think the Septon's plan is to demonstrate the Gods' judgment that the King is born of incest in as public a manner as possible to bring down the Royal House.  He didn't go to all that trouble just to have the matter decided in a one on one fight Cercei's champion would likely win.


If I am wrong about that and it turns out to be a one on one fight, who do you think it will be.  My guess is that [spoiler]we will see the Hound reappear[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 16, 2015, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 01:10:57 PM
If I am wrong about that and it turns out to be a one on one fight, who do you think it will be.  My guess is that [spoiler]we will see the Hound reappear[/spoiler]

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 16, 2015, 12:55:36 PM
I have to admit I'm enjoying this banter more than I did the books. :D

Yeah, this thread has been one Languish's better moments. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 01:15:33 PM
My guess as to the champion of the Faith is the same as yours, CC, because [spoiler]I think that the Hound will have been using the time since his 'death' to atone for his crimes.  Eventually, though, he will return to violence, but this time for a good end--fighting to see his old employers get what they have coming to them.  Sandor has every reason to want to see them defeated, is an exceptional warrior (good enough to go toe-to-toe with The Mountain, and, of course, there's the added bonus of finally getting to defeat his brother.[/spoiler]

I don't really see how anyone else could be named, given the details available.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 01:21:43 PM
[spoiler]It will be interesting to see what his backstory is.  Whether he becomes a religious zealot in the service of the Septon to atone for his past sins or whether the arc you laid out is accurate.  I can see it going both ways but on reflection your version seems more plausible.  The thing that sticks in my mind is when we were first introduced to these characters.  The Hound saved the person who was supposed to be the best knight in the land from the wrath of his brother.  That was I think the foreshadowing for the battle to come.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 01:31:38 PM
[spoiler]Can you stop with these spoilers, you assholes? Speculations are not spoilers.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 01:33:43 PM
Can you stop trying to make this thread about your personal preferences again?  No one wants to read your blog.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 01:45:07 PM
What are you talking about? We are out of the books territory so there are no more spoilers - a spoiler is when you know something about the future from a book or a show you watched and tell this to people who do not know it.

Speculating that the Hound will be the champion chosen by the Faith Militant to fight Frankenmountain is not a spoiler and does not deserve a spoiler tag.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 01:54:22 PM
I am sure that that is what you see as the function of spoiler tags, and you are at least partially right.  But others (you know, those people you never consider when you post?) may not wish to read about speculation on plot points in the future. I am being courteous. You should try it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 01:58:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 01:31:38 PM
[spoiler]Can you stop with these spoilers, you assholes? Speculations are not spoilers.[/spoiler]

Try thinking about more than yourself.  You are the Cercei of Languish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 16, 2015, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 12:20:19 PM
He wants to look like a shaky, old buffoon so that people underestimate what he's up to.  Presumably, it's to appear weak and foolish when, in fact, he's rather crafty.  By appearing harmless, he keeps his seat of influence without anyone suspecting him of anything.

I was thinking he may had some part in the Huge, Grand Excellent Scheme of Littlefinger's.
Then I remembered the two didn't seem to like each other much.

Why I'm asking is because it was shown us that he was in fact quite fit for his age, but it hasn't really been followed up.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 03:25:11 PM
Yeah, I think it was just set up as a kind of throwaway thread that he was wilier than he looks.  I doubt much will come of it this much later, though I'm glad to see his characterization (the pervy eyebrow raising at naked Cersei) is still consistent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 16, 2015, 03:32:31 PM
It could be the writers underlining that everyone in the Red Keep has secrets, or maybe at one point he'll jump and slash a throat or two and claim innocence because how could a frail old man do that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 03:44:41 PM
Yeah, I agree with both of you.  It was another indication that nothing is what it seems within the Red Keep. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2015, 04:12:11 PM
Pycelle is a survivor; I don't think he's up to anything in particular other than keeping his place.  His whole game is not rocking the boat and being willing to be bought; that makes him the safest choice.  A smart strategy because the only one who ever cared about competence in that position is halfway around the world. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 16, 2015, 04:50:27 PM
A thought on Jon - it seems next series they are to introduce flashbacks via bran and the heart trees.
Bringing back jons actor - they could do some misdirection with this and pass it off as being for the flashbacks.

It does seem very very likely that he will be back following standard plot lines... But I do wonder whether it might not be Martin doing his fantasy trope subversion and attempt to be realistic thing- in real life how many people have been built up to such great fates only do meet an unglamorous death?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 04:53:27 PM
I think, in this instance, that prophecy will end up trumping his desire to subvert expectations.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 04:55:04 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 04:53:27 PM
I think, in this instance, that prophecy will end up trumping his desire to subvert expectations.

:yes:

That is my view as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 16, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
A Red Priestess arrives at Castle Black just before Jon is attacked.
He'll be back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 05:14:00 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 16, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
A Red Priestess arrives at Castle Black just before Jon is attacked.
He'll be back.

:yes:  Way too convenient in the show.  I prefer the book's handling of this, but at least she's where she needs to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 16, 2015, 05:14:18 PM
He'll Warg into Snow and then eventually one of the dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 05:18:45 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 16, 2015, 05:22:09 PM
Is it unthinkable though that he wargs into Snow and joins Bran somehow?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 16, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 05:18:45 PM
:lol:
well, probably snow, but I thought I'd throw in the dragon too :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 05:32:15 PM
Quote from: Liep on June 16, 2015, 05:22:09 PM
Is it unthinkable though that he wargs into Snow and joins Bran somehow?


Bran is going to play a role.  But he isn't going anywhere physically now.  He is going to be exerting his influence as a kind of prophet/messenger of the Old Gods.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2015, 05:57:41 PM
Apparently you're all terrible people! :o

I knew it! :mad:

http://scholars-stage.blogspot.sg/2015/06/which-is-worse-game-of-thrones-or.html?m=1

Quote
Which is Worse: Game of Thrones or the Culture that Watches It?

It is rare for me to comment at length on contemporary American pop-culture here at the Stage, where I usually reserve myself to discussions of cultural trends found deep in the past or far from American shores. But occasionally I will read a piece exciting or infuriating enough to drag me out of my usual silence. Yesterday Adam Elkus (blogger at Rethinking Security and Zero Derp Thirty, columnist at Slate and War on the Rocks) published one of these essays. It was given the link-baity title, "Why Game of Thrones is Making Us Stupid." An excerpt will give you sense of its main arguments:
Quote
Game of Thrones makes people stupid. It is not a guilty pleasure akin to Jackass or The Bachelor, where viewers understand that the show has no substantive content and merely consists of dick jokes or gawking at the sham of 20-30 women claiming to have a "connection" with a single, douchey playboy. It is a form of power pornography in which viewers watch human beings degrade, hurt, betray, abuse, and destroy each other and then compulsively compete to see how can the most clever gif or IMGUR image out of such depravity. They derive entertainment and satisfaction out of the show's spectacle of power, domination, and cruelty and then turn such depraved fictional acts in a kind of cultural language and cultural shorthand that they communicate to each other with and even use to describe real-world horrors and cruelties such as the current wars in the Middle East. [1]
Readers who interact with me on other forums, comment threads, or e-mail groups where discussion of American pop culture are par for course are aware of how much I despise Game of Thrones, the books that inspired it, and the adulatory sub-culture that has sprouted up around it. It should not be surprising to find that I agree wholeheartedly with the tenor of all of Mr. Elkus's arguments, and the substance of most of them. Elkus's piece is long and far-ranging, and I recommend you read all of it. His thoughts on Game of Throne's invasion of American political rhetoric and culture--especially our inability to discuss atrocities that are occurring in the real world without dumbing them down to a series of Game of Thrones memes--is particularly on point.

There is one place where I disagree with Elkus. He describes the appeal of Game of Thrones in the following terms:

Quote
Game of Thrones is part of a genre of television that I roughly dub "Machiavellian porn." We watch it not because we really find the acts so disturbing and despicable but because we want to see powerful men and a few select women outsmart, humiliate, hurt, and impose their will on others. Hence the rape scenes of Game of Thrones are a feature, not a bug. We watch men spend hours cruelly imposing their will and humiliating other men, and then they do so to women in another setting. And this is not exclusive to Game of Thrones by any means. Frank Underwood, for example, humiliates, hurts, and mistreats both his mistress and many of his political allies. Like competence porn, Game of Thrones no doubt fills some deep, sublimated need. Why everyone from the Reddit bro set to Oberlin Critical Studies majors delight in such a spectacle is beyond me, but I don't imagine it is too different from how our supposedly uncivilized ancestors enjoyed bear-baiting, public executions, gladiator fights, and other similar spectacles. [2]

I am afraid this is altogether too charitable. There probably is some appeal in watching the clever and strong dominate other schemers who thought they were the clever and strong. Displays of mastery impress us. But there is much more to it than this--in writing the Song of Ice and Fire series upon which Game of Thrones was based, George R.R. Martin relies on a regular narrative pattern designed to produce a specific emotional reaction from his readers. It works like this: do everything possible to get readers emotionally invested in a character, and then abuse this character as graphically as possible. [3]

It is hard to describe viewers' attraction to this pattern as anything but voyeuristic. I use the word a bit loosely here--Game of Throne's promiscuity is one of its hooks, of course, but that is only part of the 'voyeuristic' impulse that drives the show. The allure of Game of Thrones is the allure of seeing the worst of humanity, viscerally depicted, without leaving the comfort of your living room. The extreme levels of violence, torture, and sex, or the constant betrayals and 'plot twist' deaths present in the story-line do not have any other motive than astonishment and emotional shock. Much like the Saw films, Game of Thrones allows the viewer to revel in depravity from afar. Game of Thrones is not as gratuitous as Saw and the other Gorno flicks, but its perversion cuts deeper because the viewer has a stronger emotional connection with the characters. This emotional manipulation is (from Martin's perspective) a brilliant device to keep readers turning pages and one of the undeniable draws of his series. Once it is established that any character is fair game for an unexpected rape, torture session, or grotesque death, the reader is compelled to keep reading to see if  his or her favorite character is not next on the chopping block.

The TV series follows the same narrative strategy as Martin's Ice and Fire novels, save that  atrocities are depicted more graphically and plot elements are regularly changed to become even more shocking or depraved than what is found in the original source material. (One imagines the writing team's conversations: "Lets see, Martin wrote about incestuous sex next to a dead body after a funeral in a church, huh? We need to make that more edgy. Hmmm.... I know, lets make it incestuous rape next to a dead body after a funeral in a church!)

Fans of the show do not react well when offered this explanation of Game of Throne's popularity. No one likes being called a voyeur, especially a voyeur of human depravity. Apologists are quick to arise, and their defense almost always revolves around one of two claims. The first is that Game of Thrones simply presents world as it "really" is, and it is this "realism" that both justifies the show's content and explains its popular appeal. Those who contrast the series with the tamer fantasy fiction of yore (especially Lord of the Rings) take this approach explicitly; the endless stream of "how Game of Thrones explains real world event X" articles are an implicit defense of the same point. The second defense apologists offer is that the viewers enjoy the series because its characters are complex, multi-layered, and compelling, and it is these elements of the story that keep viewership numbers high. Both lines of argument are really quite disturbing--far more disturbing than the claim that people enjoy Game of Thrones simply because it appeals to the baser demons of their nature--and offers a sad window into the worldview of America's chattering class.

The simplest response to claims that Game of Thrones presents an accurate picture of human society is to point out that this is false. As Sady Doyle noted a few years back, Game of Thrones presents a highly selective view of the Medieval past:


QuoteYes, it's true; in Ye Olde Medieval Europe, female tweens were oft wed to the grown-ups. A Song of Ice and Fire is known for being "gritty" and "authentic," so really, aren't I just objecting to the realism? Reader, here are the things that George R. R. Martin changed about Ye Olde Medieval Europe, when he set out to write A Song of Ice and Fire: Religion. Geography. History. Politics. Zombies. Werewolves. Dragons. At one point, when asked why his characters were taller, healthier, and longer-lived than actual Medieval people, George R. R. Martin explained that human genetics and biology do not work the same way in Westeros as they do in the real world. So George R. R. Martin considered that he could change all of that while maintaining "authenticity." Here's what he left in, however: Institutionalized pedophilia. [4]


[/quoteDoyle understates the point. Conspicuously missing from Game of Thrones's many royal deaths are the kind that littered the true middle ages. Few nobles of Westeros are killed by influenza, alcohol poisoning, or being thrown from their horse. Every one of Martin's unmarried female characters is raped (or barely escapes it), but if killing and pain must be portrayed, it would be just as realistic to have one of these heroines married off in peaceful circumstances, only to die nine months later as they gave birth. But death by something as mundane as fever or childbirth has no place in the world of Game of Thrones. Both the novels and the TV series are committed to a distorted depiction of a very small sliver of pre-modern life.

This is not to downplay the role of violence or the scale of atrocity of human history. Apologists are quick to point out that the Iliad or Biblical books like Numbers and Joshua depict events just as barbarous, and no one (outside of a few crazies at places like Columbia) objects to those.  But the comparison really works to Game of Throne's discredit. Barbarous and retrograde as they may be, the Iliad and the Pentateuch present a wider array of emotions and human motivations than can be found in all of the Song of Ice and Fire books combined. This is why they are still read all of these millenia later. They capture a enough of the human condition to resonate across centuries. This is an achievement Martin's shallow world of vice-driven characters could never hope to attain.

This is an important point worth emphasizing. This is a blog about history, politics, and strategy. My field of expertise is East Asian history--but more specifically, the role that war and empire has played in its history. Examining the atrocities and tragedies of the past is what I do. In this line of research it is easy to forget the real cost of wars and turmoil, to reduce suffering to statistics, battle diagrams, and theoretical abstractions. I fight this temptation by reading memoirs. My rule is that I read one at least once every other month. I find a personal account of someone who lived through the worst of what human beings have done to each other so that I do not forget what abstractions in the mind of strategists become in the world of flesh and smoke. I've read dozens of them. They are accounts of soldiers, diplomats, refugees, and survivors. They do not read anything like Game of Thrones. There are powerful--even beautiful--novels like Vaddey Ratner's In the Shadow of the Banyan that depict events far more horrifying than anything that has happened in Westeros, yet somehow muster an emotional range that exceeds what Game of Thrones can offer. There is a realness to these books that Game of Thrones cannot hold a candle to--and when you meet those who write these kind of books you realize how insulting such a comparison is.


Image Credit: Good Reads

Some of these books are bleak. Others are much less so. Many are edifying. A few are funny. But none were meant to be entertaining. One cannot write honestly--that is, realistically--about these things with the aim of entertainment. Any depiction of torture, death, and rape designed to entertain is one far removed from reality.

This is not a problem unique to Game of Thrones. It is a flaw that pervades fantasy as a genre, and most of the other big authors writing today are guilty of it. [5] But the problem is worse for Game of Thrones because of the intensity with which its chosen horrors are depicted. This is what sets Game of Thrones apart from the Iliad or the Bible. Game of Thrones is gratuitous in a way Homer never could be. It is gratuitous in a way accounts of real world horrors never are. And yet we acclaim its authenticity and realism! A comparison with Tolkien here is actually quite instructive. Tolkien did experience barbarity and inhumanity personally. He knew humanity at its worst and most wretched, and he wrote Lord of the Rings in the midst of an even more ruthless conflict. He and his generation knew what words like 'cruelty' meant in a way that George R.R. Martin and his audience never could.

This is the most disturbing part of the 'realism' refrain. The viewers of Game of Thrones are mostly white, educated, and upper class. Of all of the demographics in America, those who watch Game of Thrones lead the lives which are furthest removed from the barbarity depicted in the show. Game of Thrones does not correspond to any 'reality' upper-class Americans have ever experienced. There is nothing in their experience which should lead them to believe that this is how human beings actually deal with each other. Violence is at global lows, prosperity at a  global high. Yet somehow modern Americans, living at the height of the richest, most productive civilization in history, have succumbed to the idea that "real" can only be found in the gruesome, the lewd, and the heinous.

This dark inclination extends far past Game of Thrones, infecting most pop-culture items pedaled to the "mass intelligent." It applies with equal force to almost everything HBO and the other  high-end drama channels produce. AMC's award winning Breaking Bad is a perfect example. More so than the Game of Thrones leads, Walter White is a character educated, upper-class Americans can relate to. Like them, he is smart, white, and comes from a rather tame background. But unlike them he is thrust down into a world of violence and perversity that is utterly unlike anything they have experienced--or indeed, would ever want to. But the desire to see that world up close remains, and Breaking Bad, just like Game of Thrones, allows its viewers to experience the intrigues and evils of the underworld without having to bear any of its consequences. It is depravity voyeurism wrapped up in a neat, high end package.

This is what separates Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, and their sad lot from the less intelligent gorno flicks like Saw, which are designed to elicit a very similar set of emotions from its viewers. The complexity of the plots, cleverness of the machinations and power ploys of the leads, and superb characterization by the actors allow viewers to claim that the real allure of the show are its compelling characters and the story-lines, not its gratuity or darkness.  This is silly. If the story and characters were strong enough to stand up on their own, then why is the rankness (or the nudity) necessary in the first place? The answer is that these things are necessary. The depravity of Game of Thrones is a large part of its appeal. It is what shocks viewers, keeps them returning in suspense, and fools them into thinking they have a realistic depiction of the world before them.

Why they think it is realistic is the great mystery. It is an answer I have not found. We've reached a point where a story will not be hailed as authentic, deep, and "real" if it is not also dark, gritty, and violent. Why is a world of grisly barbarity the only setting for moral drama modern audiences find acceptable? Apologists who defend the books on the strength of its compelling characters and gripping storyline need to answer this question before their claims of Martin's literary brilliance can be taken seriously. The same question should be put to the loyal defenders of the more graphic and perverted television version. It could be put to America's clever chattering class as a whole:

Why this thirst for a 'reality' that is alien to the values and experiences of the audience? In 21st America, why do so many seek their escape in the dark ages? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2015, 06:05:45 PM
Has he ever actually read the Iliad?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 16, 2015, 06:25:24 PM
Ha ha Tim, nothing but a bunch of b.s. drama. TV for the assburger generation. Told you, you all suck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2015, 06:05:45 PM
Has he ever actually read the Iliad?

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 06:53:47 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 16, 2015, 06:25:24 PM
Ha ha Tim, nothing but a bunch of b.s. drama. TV for the assburger generation. Told you, you all suck.

It's a strange type of personality that keeps commenting on others watching a show that one hates so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on June 16, 2015, 06:57:52 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 06:53:47 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 16, 2015, 06:25:24 PM
Ha ha Tim, nothing but a bunch of b.s. drama. TV for the assburger generation. Told you, you all suck.

It's a strange type of personality that keeps commenting on others watching a show that one hates so much.

It's strange type of person that views said show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 07:03:49 PM
Zing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2015, 07:07:12 PM
Sounds like Timmy's two authors got really, really bummed out by the Red Wedding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 07:58:23 PM
I would agree that anyone "defending" GoT on the basis of how "realistic" it is are a bunch of dumbasses.

Why anyone would feel a need to defend enjoying the books or the show is kind of beyond me though...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 08:15:24 PM
now that the season has concluded, my biggest question is how many reviewers feel embarrassed that they bitched so much about the sansa rape.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 08:23:54 PM
Why would they feel embarrassed about that?  It still seems to have served little purpose, other than to shock and titillate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 09:13:54 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 08:23:54 PM
Why would they feel embarrassed about that?  It still seems to have served little purpose, other than to shock and titillate.

merged storylines. had theon still do his thing while giving sansa something worthwhile than... whatever she's doing in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2015, 09:17:35 PM
I have to disagree there.  Sansa did nothing of note this entire season other than get placed in Winterfell.  Fortunately, she and Theon can take refuge at The Wall, where her half-brother is Lord Commander!...

What Sansa's doing in the books makes vastly more sense, at least to me.  She's learning the string-puller trade direct from Littlefinger and is set to make big moves in The Vale.  Her agency in Winterfell was reduced to zero the moment she got married.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 10:21:59 PM
My grandmother has a lot of books that might be more to Tim and Bravo's tastes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2015, 10:22:05 PM
Indeed - her entire story arc, *at best* now amounts to her *escaping* Ramsey. Her role as a actual player in the game throughout the entire Winterfell portion of her story is zero.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 10:32:18 PM
if the show adopted sansa's book plot, people would find it incredibly boring. she just isn't doing anything right now. and, she may not do anything in the next book, too. her whole arc in the book may in fact be just to show littlefinger's actions without having to show his inner thoughts. anything more might very well be fanfiction, like stannis winning.

sansa's current book plot wouldn't fit the show. they'd be better off cutting her completely than show a season of her getting talked to by littlefinger. at least the show is using her. because the show does what the books cannot do - provide multiple POVs not found in the books because doing so would spoil plotlines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2015, 10:35:48 PM
She has two assets she could have tried to leverage if she had stayed in the Vale: the Stark name and knowledge that Littlefinger offed Queen Breast Feed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 10:38:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 16, 2015, 10:35:48 PM
She has two assets she could have tried to leverage if she had stayed in the Vale: the Stark name and knowledge that Littlefinger offed Queen Breast Feed.

okay, but then she'd be in the vale. right now, the vale isn't useful. there's plenty of time for show sansa to return to the vale, fresh with revenge and hating littlefinger for selling her down the river. that would be more interesting than seeing littlefinger molest sansa for eight episodes as he jerks off over his schemes. we've already had quite a lot of that without needing more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 10:44:24 PM
They wouldn't need to show her more than once or twice to establish that she's ensconced in the Vale. We just went through an entire season without Bran, and hardly anyone complained.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 10:50:16 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 16, 2015, 10:44:24 PM
They wouldn't need to show her more than once or twice to establish that she's ensconced in the Vale. We just went through an entire season without Bran, and hardly anyone complained.

bran's morphing into a tree. he's allowed time to disappear. sansa doesn't really have that luxury. after all, she's still a stark kid, and they've always been given unique priority. plus, sansa served a purpose by forging an alliance between littlefinger and the boltons, which could have a pretty big effect later down the road. and dorne was kinda a mess this season; we didn't need another dorne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2015, 10:58:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 16, 2015, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 16, 2015, 06:05:45 PM
Has he ever actually read the Iliad?

:lol:

It's been a while but I recall lots and lots of graphic descriptions of people getting various body parts impaled by spears.  And a core plot point being a spat over a stolen captive slave girl.

IIRC the sacrifice of Agamemnon's daughter to get good weather isn't in there exactly but it does appear in various other literature.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 11:01:59 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 10:50:16 PM
bran's morphing into a tree. he's allowed time to disappear. sansa doesn't really have that luxury. after all, she's still a stark kid, and they've always been given unique priority. plus, sansa served a purpose by forging an alliance between littlefinger and the boltons, which could have a pretty big effect later down the road. and dorne was kinda a mess this season; we didn't need another dorne.

Rickon's a Stark kid too.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 11:05:25 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 16, 2015, 11:01:59 PMRickon's a Stark kid too.  :lol:

i figured he'd come up, except he's not even really a character in either the books or the show. you've seen mad men's bobby. you know how these things work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 16, 2015, 10:44:24 PM
They wouldn't need to show her more than once or twice to establish that she's ensconced in the Vale. We just went through an entire season without Bran, and hardly anyone complained.

I suspect the deal with either of the actors is different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 16, 2015, 11:16:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:56 PM
I suspect the deal with either of the actors is different.

I don't think either actor has all that much bargaining power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 17, 2015, 12:31:16 AM
Well, I'm glad they made Sansa stand in for Jayne Poole, rather than introducing yet another character. This season has been all about convergence of different characters (Jon + Stannis/Melissandre/Davos; Sansa + Theon/Ramsay; Danny/Jorah + Tyrion/Varys etc.) and it did a great job of it - in fact where it relatively floundered (Dorne) was where it also kept introducing new characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 17, 2015, 01:32:53 AM
Jeyne Poole didn't need to be there either. This season has also been about cutting stuff out(Quentyn Martell, Aegon, dwarf jousting, etc). We already know Ramsay's a shitheel, so the episode's only real purpose is to begin a redemptive arc for Theon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 17, 2015, 01:45:25 AM
You need a Jayne Poole to begin the redemptive arc for Theon - so it is much better to have it be Sansa and this way also give her screen time (and simultaneously give Brienne, Littlefinger, Pod and a few other characters something to do) than to spend time on Theon's redemptive arc while giving Sansa two scenes in a season to show her doing nothing.

The point is that by giving Theon and Sansa shared screen time, their time becomes greater than the sum of its parts, so to speak, if they were given the same time separately.

Frankly, your view on this is mind boggling to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 17, 2015, 01:55:13 AM
If a character is important enough to need screen time, she's important enough to act in character and not be thrown somewhere just to serve another character's needs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 17, 2015, 07:15:02 AM
show sansa has done exactly the same as book sansa. wait, show sansa actually has done more because at least she can pick a lock.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 17, 2015, 07:31:18 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 17, 2015, 07:15:02 AM
show sansa has done exactly the same as book sansa. wait, show sansa actually has done more because at least she can pick a lock.  :P

Yeah, my point exactly. People want the story to give Sansa agency but they are mad she escapes from an oppressive situation (admittedly with another person's help) instead of sitting on her ass in a golden cage kind of situation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 17, 2015, 07:56:42 AM
Yes your right - the complaint about Sansa is that she escaped, rather than sitting on her ass. Because those are the only two possible options.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 17, 2015, 08:01:39 AM
What are the other options? If the show makes something else ups, the complaints would be of even more departure from Book Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 17, 2015, 08:24:18 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 17, 2015, 08:01:39 AM
What are the other options? If the show makes something else ups, the complaints would be of even more departure from Book Sansa.

The show departed from book Sansa a long, long time ago, and nobody who has expressed a complaint about her story has based that complaint on her being outside the scope of the book.

You are inventing an argument that nobody has made, I think there is a word for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 17, 2015, 08:35:52 AM
While the show has departed from Book Sansa a long time ago, that has not stopped the complaints.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 17, 2015, 08:39:18 AM
The complaints are about where it took her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 17, 2015, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 17, 2015, 08:35:52 AM
While the show has departed from Book Sansa a long time ago, that has not stopped the complaints.

Of course - the complaints are about how the show has managed her story SINCE it departed from the books.

So yeah, that has not stopped the complaints, rather the opposite.

Personally, my annoyance has nothing to do with the show departing from the books (and it isn't really even a departure per se, they just continued her story beyond where the books have left off), but rather I think the writers have done a poor job telling the story in it's own right, absent the book entirely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 10:32:18 PM
if the show adopted sansa's book plot, people would find it incredibly boring. she just isn't doing anything right now. and, she may not do anything in the next book, too. her whole arc in the book may in fact be just to show littlefinger's actions without having to show his inner thoughts. anything more might very well be fanfiction, like stannis winning.

sansa's current book plot wouldn't fit the show. they'd be better off cutting her completely than show a season of her getting talked to by littlefinger. at least the show is using her. because the show does what the books cannot do - provide multiple POVs not found in the books because doing so would spoil plotlines.

Ok, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 17, 2015, 10:58:28 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AM
Ok, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.
they needed somoene to advance Littlefinger and the Bolton's story.  In the books, he reuses a minor character called Jeyne Poole wich is passed as Arya Stark.  In the series, that would have been confusing a little since I'm not sure we ever saw her, and b) it required putting a new actress under contract.  Aside the budget constraints, there is the casting issue: do you find the right actress for that, at the right age?  That's a lot of risk, and they only have 20hrs left to tell the story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 11:16:07 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 17, 2015, 10:58:28 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AM
Ok, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.
they needed somoene to advance Littlefinger and the Bolton's story.  In the books, he reuses a minor character called Jeyne Poole wich is passed as Arya Stark.  In the series, that would have been confusing a little since I'm not sure we ever saw her, and b) it required putting a new actress under contract.  Aside the budget constraints, there is the casting issue: do you find the right actress for that, at the right age?  That's a lot of risk, and they only have 20hrs left to tell the story.

Jeyne was in the show. It would have been just as easy to write her into this season as it would have been to create a meaningless story arc for Sansa.  It probably came down to the cost of paying another actress to advance the story of both Bolton and Theon.  Littlefinger didn't need to appear this season either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 17, 2015, 11:49:32 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 11:16:07 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 17, 2015, 10:58:28 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AM
Ok, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.
they needed somoene to advance Littlefinger and the Bolton's story.  In the books, he reuses a minor character called Jeyne Poole wich is passed as Arya Stark.  In the series, that would have been confusing a little since I'm not sure we ever saw her, and b) it required putting a new actress under contract.  Aside the budget constraints, there is the casting issue: do you find the right actress for that, at the right age?  That's a lot of risk, and they only have 20hrs left to tell the story.

Jeyne was in the show. It would have been just as easy to write her into this season as it would have been to create a meaningless story arc for Sansa.  It probably came down to the cost of paying another actress to advance the story of both Bolton and Theon.  Littlefinger didn't need to appear this season either.

I think it was just kind of lazy writing. There is a lot going on in the show, and I suspect the Sansa story was just not really focused on much, and by the time they realized it kind of sucked, it was probably too late to revise.

That is my guess anyway. It is a ridiculously complex story and show, and really, if this is the only example once it is all done where we look back and say "Yeah, the Sansa story after the Vale really kind of sucked" it will still be a pretty astounding series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 17, 2015, 02:08:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 10:32:18 PM
if the show adopted sansa's book plot, people would find it incredibly boring. she just isn't doing anything right now. and, she may not do anything in the next book, too. her whole arc in the book may in fact be just to show littlefinger's actions without having to show his inner thoughts. anything more might very well be fanfiction, like stannis winning.

sansa's current book plot wouldn't fit the show. they'd be better off cutting her completely than show a season of her getting talked to by littlefinger. at least the show is using her. because the show does what the books cannot do - provide multiple POVs not found in the books because doing so would spoil plotlines.

Ok, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.

She was the vehicle to take us to Winterfell. Arguably a boring part of the plot but it may have implications down the road, especially with  Reek's rehabilitaton
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 17, 2015, 03:45:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 11:16:07 AM
Littlefinger didn't need to appear this season either.
true.  All we needed were Jon Snow and Daenerys.  The rest, we had no use for.  It's not like there's 20 episodes left to finish the story, after all, we can afford to squander in every direction like the author of the books and make another season if need be, just like he would write another book. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 17, 2015, 06:58:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AMOk, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.

she's a major stark kid that's not becoming a tree. you can't really cut her out - that ain't kosher. jeyne poole wouldn't have worked, imo. as was mentioned at some point in this thread, it's a weak/kinda unrealistic plot in the books. but, this would be worse than the books because we have actual visuals.

then there's the logistics of paying/dealing with another actress in an already huge cast. they already brought lancel back from the dead, introduced a ton of meereen people and an entire dukedom, etc. and, theon saving sansa is a better and more intimate plot than theon saving some random chick he probably took two glances at back in the day.

there's a lot of reasons why they included this plot, and the S5 sansa plot is by far not the worst thing this show has delivered. complaints about it remind me of the barristan death complaints: "but the books didn't do that!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 17, 2015, 09:09:36 PM
Funny line LaCroix. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 17, 2015, 09:24:13 PM
it's just some of the criticisms are so focused on comparisons between the show and the book that i think it gets lost that they're two completely separate, distinct forms of entertainment
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 17, 2015, 09:32:46 PM
I agree with LaCroix.  There are limits to teleplay.  Characters and scenarios cannot be multiplied without end as in the books (in fact the books are overkill themselves).  The show is doing what the books should have - keep the focus on the Starks to the extent possible while keeping the essentials of the other plot lines.  So makes sense Sansa was in.  Whether it was adroitly handled is another ?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 18, 2015, 09:24:27 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 17, 2015, 09:24:13 PM
it's just some of the criticisms are so focused on comparisons between the show and the book that i think it gets lost that they're two completely separate, distinct forms of entertainment
lots of people don't get that.  I realized that way back, when we discussed LoTR ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 18, 2015, 10:30:34 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 17, 2015, 06:58:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 17, 2015, 10:28:51 AMOk, so why write her into this season at all then.  Isnt that the point.  It served no purpose.

she's a major stark kid that's not becoming a tree. you can't really cut her out - that ain't kosher. jeyne poole wouldn't have worked, imo. as was mentioned at some point in this thread, it's a weak/kinda unrealistic plot in the books. but, this would be worse than the books because we have actual visuals.

then there's the logistics of paying/dealing with another actress in an already huge cast. they already brought lancel back from the dead, introduced a ton of meereen people and an entire dukedom, etc. and, theon saving sansa is a better and more intimate plot than theon saving some random chick he probably took two glances at back in the day.

there's a lot of reasons why they included this plot, and the S5 sansa plot is by far not the worst thing this show has delivered. complaints about it remind me of the barristan death complaints: "but the books didn't do that!"

In relation to your first point, I agree Sansa is a major character.  That is why they should not have written her into the role performed by minor character to engage a minor part of the plot line.  This is where the weakness of the writers for the show is exposed.  This is the first time they had no material from the books to guide them.  They had three choices.  Leave Sansa out of this season to see what happens to her in the books; create their own version of the Sansa story; or combine her with a minor character so that they didn't have to be put to the effort of option 2.  Given the poor result they should have gone with option 1.  Nobody would have minded.  This season was about the Red Keep, Dorne and the North with a side story concerning Arya.  There was no need to include Sansa in any of that.   The only thing that needed to be done was push Theon's story along and they didn't need to involve Sansa for that.  Although it is ironic that Fake Arya always wanted to be Sansa  :P.

In relation to your second point. Yeah.  I already said that was the likely reason the writers did this.  But instead of being a major part of the season it could have been cut back significantly.  It was really only necessary to bring Theon's story along.

The complaint about the Barristan's death was not that it didn't happen in the books.  The complaint was that it was poorly written and meaningless. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 18, 2015, 08:28:27 PM
sansa has always had a minor plot in the part, according to your definition. lots of major characters have had minor roles in the plot in both show and book. you're right that red keep, north, and dorne were the major westeros plots this season. placing sansa in the north added to that plotline. you disagree with that, i get that. that doesn't make it an objectively wrong decision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 18, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
Sansa has a minor role?  My whole argument is the writers undermined her role.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 18, 2015, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 18, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
Sansa has a minor role?  My whole argument is the writers undermined her role.

she did as much this season as she's done in other seasons. her whole thing is being a pawn that starts to emerge into something more. in the books and show, she's yet to emerge. there are glimpses, in the book and now the show, that this is about to change.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 19, 2015, 06:24:05 AM
I break this debate to bring you...an interview with Cersei's better half.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/18/game-thrones-lena-headey-nude-double-van-cleave
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 19, 2015, 10:09:27 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 18, 2015, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 18, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
Sansa has a minor role?  My whole argument is the writers undermined her role.

she did as much this season as she's done in other seasons. her whole thing is being a pawn that starts to emerge into something more. in the books and show, she's yet to emerge. there are glimpses, in the book and now the show, that this is about to change.

Now I understand your position.  It ignores that even in the show Sansa's character had matured and developed past the point of being a pawn. One needs to ignore that character development which was clear in both the show and the books to justify putting her into the position of fake Arya this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 19, 2015, 10:14:26 AM
My complaint with how they handled Sansa this season has absolutely nothing to do with the books. If I had never read the books, and only cared about the show in its own right, my complaint would be completely unchanged.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 19, 2015, 10:17:26 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 19, 2015, 10:14:26 AM
My complaint with how they handled Sansa this season has absolutely nothing to do with the books. If I had never read the books, and only cared about the show in its own right, my complaint would be completely unchanged.

Agreed.  The only reason I made reference to the books is because Lacroix stated that she was also a pawn in the books at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 19, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
There is also the book induced presumption that Sansa, because she is a Stark, is a major character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2015, 10:39:51 AM
That's not unique to the book. Remember all those reaction videos to Ned's death and the Red Wedding?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 19, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 19, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
There is also the book induced presumption that Sansa, because she is a Stark, is a major character.

If she is a major character in the book and a major character in the show the rational conclusion is that she is a major character. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 19, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Unless premise #2 is wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 19, 2015, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 19, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Unless premise #2 is wrong.

Sure, but if you count the amount of screen time she gets I am not sure why it would be
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 19, 2015, 04:32:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 19, 2015, 06:24:05 AM
I break this debate to bring you...an interview with Cersei's better half.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/18/game-thrones-lena-headey-nude-double-van-cleave

Van Cleave? Perfect name.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 19, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 19, 2015, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 19, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Unless premise #2 is wrong.

Sure, but if you count the amount of screen time she gets I am not sure why it would be

Now, that's the actual issue. They have an actress with a 1st role contract but no writen content that demands that kind of commitment.

Gretchen Mol's role in Boardwalk Empire suffered the same thing in season 3-4-5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 19, 2015, 11:12:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 19, 2015, 10:09:27 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 18, 2015, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 18, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
Sansa has a minor role?  My whole argument is the writers undermined her role.

she did as much this season as she's done in other seasons. her whole thing is being a pawn that starts to emerge into something more. in the books and show, she's yet to emerge. there are glimpses, in the book and now the show, that this is about to change.

Now I understand your position.  It ignores that even in the show Sansa's character had matured and developed past the point of being a pawn. One needs to ignore that character development which was clear in both the show and the books to justify putting her into the position of fake Arya this season.

she's a pawn that thinks she's becoming more than a pawn. look at her actions. she's littlefinger's pawn at the moment. this will change in the books just like it will in the show. the only difference is that we were saved an extra season in the eyrie. you dislike the merged plotlines in part at least because you think it set her character back a notch. i like the merged plotlines and think her character remains unaffected. she's the same girl-with-some-experience she was back in the eyrie, just with more experience now. and a reason to hate littlefinger, something we haven't seen happen yet in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 19, 2015, 11:44:10 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 19, 2015, 11:12:42 PM
and a reason to hate littlefinger, something we haven't seen happen yet in the books.
Let's see...
- he betrayed Ned Stark
- he sold off some poor girl named Jeyne Pool after transforming her into a prostitute and breaking her
- he's a pimp
- he betrays Catlyn Stark
- he kills Catlyn sister, but she's admittedly crazy, so let's give him a pass on that.

Plenty of reasons to hate him in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2015, 12:17:06 AM
she doesn't know at least some of those.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 24, 2015, 01:38:24 PM
More casting calls for next season, mostly for generic characters with a heavy Northern bent, so I think we will see plenty of action around the area.

http://watchersonthewall.com/more-casting-info-for-game-of-thrones-season-6/ (http://watchersonthewall.com/more-casting-info-for-game-of-thrones-season-6/)

This one is interesting, though.

QuoteLegendary Fighter:  A man in his thirties or forties who is a great swordsman and a paragon of knighthood. He carries a hugely famous sword on his back.  The show is seeking a very impressive swordsman for the role- the best in Europe, for a week of filming fight scenes for a season 6 role. His ethnicity/race isn't specified, unlike many other roles.

Ser Arthur Dayne? Flashback to the Tower of Joy?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 24, 2015, 01:57:05 PM
Thats the theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 24, 2015, 11:52:12 PM
http://shamenun.com/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 24, 2015, 11:53:12 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2015, 01:38:24 PM
Ser Arthur Dayne? Flashback to the Tower of Joy?  :ph34r:

Has to be.

:punk:

Quote"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 25, 2015, 04:43:08 AM
So Sean Bean will be back for this too, presumably.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2015, 06:30:23 AM
There is now this rather fun Facebook app, which analyses your profile and tells you "which GoT character are you".

http://www.captainquizz.com/special/gameofthrones/r/10153017874626849

I got Khal Drogo.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 25, 2015, 06:45:32 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 25, 2015, 04:43:08 AMSo Sean Bean will be back for this too, presumably.

If they're going to shoot the entire fight scene I guess they'd be better suited with a younger actor that resembles him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 25, 2015, 06:53:39 AM
The only reason they might want to include that scene would be to reveal that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2015, 07:24:56 AM
Yup. Which means he would have to be resurrected (Jon that is).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 25, 2015, 08:17:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 25, 2015, 07:24:56 AM
Yup. Which means he would have to be resurrected (Jon that is).

Something nobody was expecting. At all.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 08:25:16 AM
I figured that was the purpose of Bran's entire story arc. I mean why else would we need a paralyzed wizard in the family?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2015, 08:39:32 AM
I thought the Fiery Crotch(tm) would res him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 25, 2015, 10:03:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 08:25:16 AM
I figured that was the purpose of Bran's entire story arc. I mean why else would we need a paralyzed wizard in the family?

Bran has an entirely different purpose.  It's not quite obvious what that is, just yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 25, 2015, 10:09:26 AM
Bran isn't really needed for jon's back story, since papa reed is still alive. I assumed brans part in the story comes into play against the others
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 10:10:01 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 25, 2015, 10:03:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 08:25:16 AM
I figured that was the purpose of Bran's entire story arc. I mean why else would we need a paralyzed wizard in the family?

Bran has an entirely different purpose.  It's not quite obvious what that is, just yet.

Or at least that is not the only purpose of Bran's story.  He will likely play an important role when Winter finally comes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 25, 2015, 12:20:23 PM
It does strike me that as awesome as Bran inspired flashbacks would be he does need a convenient nearby heart tree. Which the tower of joy probably doesn't have and the trident certainly wouldn't (I dearly hope we get that eventually)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 26, 2015, 07:01:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 25, 2015, 12:20:23 PM
It does strike me that as awesome as Bran inspired flashbacks would be he does need a convenient nearby heart tree. Which the tower of joy probably doesn't have and the trident certainly wouldn't (I dearly hope we get that eventually)

I read that as "Brain inspired flashbacks" and started thinking about goats.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 29, 2015, 01:27:29 PM
The writers and producers seem fairly adament Jon is dead. As a dodo.
:cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 29, 2015, 01:30:18 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 29, 2015, 01:27:29 PM
The writers and producers seem fairly adament Jon is dead. As a dodo.
:cry:

Yes, we all know he is dead. But he will be resurrected. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on June 29, 2015, 01:41:19 PM
No, I am sure Mellisandre's visit to Castle Black was just coincidence.

Having re-watched every fucking episode now, it strikes me more and more that this show is all over the place. I guess I just will cheer for Tyrion. Until he is eaten by trolls or what not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 02, 2015, 01:17:04 PM
A thought- so Valaryia was this evil land where slaves were kept in horrible conditions mining in highly volcanic terrain. Valaryia went kaput when the volcanoes all erupted and broke the land.
Now....the slaves....Rhillor was rather popular amongst them. Rhillor. The fire god. Volcanos. Slaves called upon their god's mana?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 15, 2015, 11:05:53 AM
Tower of Joy filming planned?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-tower-of-joy-adds-fuel-to-jon-snow-fan-theory-amid-predictions-of-ned-starks-return-10390144.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on July 16, 2015, 04:05:08 AM
By the way, remember the actor who played Ilyn Payne but had to drop out of the show after being diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer?

Well, looks like he got rid of it.  :showoff:

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/07/14/wilko-johnson-ilyn-payne-on-his-amazing-comeback-from-deaths-door/

QuoteA fan of Johnson's music who happened to be a doctor saw him playing the Cornbury Music Festival at The Great Tew Estate in Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, England, and wondered to himself why Johnson wasn't dead or too ill to perform.

The fan referred Johnson to an oncologist at Addenbrooke's hospital in Cambridge, where doctor Emmanuel Huguet announced the cancer was operable. Still, there was only a 15% chance that Johnson would actually survive the operation, but after nine hours of surgery, a tumor described as "the size of a baby" was removed, along with his pancreas, spleen, and part of his stomach and intestines. Even then, Wilko Johnson wasn't out of the woods, as he contracted secondary infections described as "very painful." Finally, in October of 2014, Johnson's doctors announced that he was cancer-free.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on July 16, 2015, 04:10:26 AM
You can live without a pancreas and spleen?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 16, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Spleen is not a vital organ, so yes.

Very surprise by the pancreas tho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 16, 2015, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 16, 2015, 04:10:26 AM
You can live without a pancreas and spleen?  :huh:
Yes, but you need daily insulin injections.
link (http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/Programs-and-Services/Pancreatic-and-Biliary-Diseases/Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-Pancreatic-and-Biliary-Diseases.aspx)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on July 20, 2015, 02:25:43 AM
GRRM working hard on the next book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=lle4t4o8EDk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2015, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2015, 02:25:43 AM
GRRM working hard on the next book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=lle4t4o8EDk

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on July 20, 2015, 08:06:37 AM
:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on July 22, 2015, 01:03:32 PM
Kit Harrington spotted in Belfast:

:ph34r:

(https://40.media.tumblr.com/1cee6b70d098a04911b90ec8d086c240/tumblr_nruac33p2y1qis07wo1_500.jpg)

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/07/21/harington-hair-watch-2015-unidentified-jon-snow-like-object-photographed-in-belfast/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on July 22, 2015, 01:07:21 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2015, 02:25:43 AM
GRRM working hard on the next book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=lle4t4o8EDk

Is it really him or a body double? :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on July 22, 2015, 01:55:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 22, 2015, 01:07:21 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2015, 02:25:43 AM
GRRM working hard on the next book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=lle4t4o8EDk

Is it really him or a body double? :D

The YouTube video description contains this hint, but what that means is anyone's guess.

Watch even more of Nick Mundy as George R.R. Martin on Nerdist @ http://nerdist.com/nerdist-presents-game-of-thrones-meets-taylor-swift-in-blank-page/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 22, 2015, 04:17:33 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 22, 2015, 01:55:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 22, 2015, 01:07:21 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2015, 02:25:43 AM
GRRM working hard on the next book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=lle4t4o8EDk

Is it really him or a body double? :D

The YouTube video description contains this hint, but what that means is anyone's guess.

Watch even more of Nick Mundy as George R.R. Martin on Nerdist @ http://nerdist.com/nerdist-presents-game-of-thrones-meets-taylor-swift-in-blank-page/

Disappointing.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on July 22, 2015, 05:50:22 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 22, 2015, 01:55:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 22, 2015, 01:07:21 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 20, 2015, 02:25:43 AM
GRRM working hard on the next book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=lle4t4o8EDk

Is it really him or a body double? :D

The YouTube video description contains this hint, but what that means is anyone's guess.

Watch even more of Nick Mundy as George R.R. Martin on Nerdist @ http://nerdist.com/nerdist-presents-game-of-thrones-meets-taylor-swift-in-blank-page/

Who reads youtube video descriptions? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 31, 2015, 02:24:18 PM
http://www.vulture.com/2015/07/game-of-thrones-8-seasons.html?mid=facebook_nymag
Game of Thrones Will Run for at Least 8 Seasons, and at Most, Infinity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on July 31, 2015, 02:30:34 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 16, 2015, 04:10:26 AM
You can live without a pancreas and spleen?  :huh:

I have no spleen, and I think I'm still alive... :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on July 31, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Psst, don't tell BarristerZombie.  :zipped:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 01, 2015, 11:55:24 PM
Ian McShane in season 6!  :w00t: :w00t:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on August 02, 2015, 03:55:55 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 01, 2015, 11:55:24 PM
Ian McShane in season 6!  :w00t: :w00t:

Euron Greyjoy, I presume?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on August 02, 2015, 04:34:51 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 01, 2015, 11:55:24 PM
Ian McShane in season 6!  :w00t: :w00t:

:cool:

One of my favourite actors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 02, 2015, 07:59:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 02, 2015, 03:55:55 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 01, 2015, 11:55:24 PM
Ian McShane in season 6!  :w00t: :w00t:

Euron Greyjoy, I presume?

That's what I'm thinking. Less likely, Randyll Tarly or someone we don't know of.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 02, 2015, 08:32:42 AM
Great news, I love Ian McShane.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 04, 2015, 04:28:43 AM
Max von Sidow will play the three eyed raven next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 04, 2015, 04:38:12 AM
I thought he was dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on August 04, 2015, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 04, 2015, 04:38:12 AM
I thought he was dead.

Are you a doctor?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 04, 2015, 01:30:14 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 04, 2015, 04:38:12 AM
I thought he was dead.

You're thinking of Saruman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on September 02, 2015, 02:06:18 PM
Some random Danish actor that only Liep must have heard about has been cast as Euron Greyjoy. So, who is Ian McShane playing?

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-euron-greyjoy-pilou-asbaek-season-6-1201584050/ (http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-euron-greyjoy-pilou-asbaek-season-6-1201584050/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on September 02, 2015, 02:15:08 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 02, 2015, 02:06:18 PM
Some random Danish actor that only Liep must have heard about has been cast as Euron Greyjoy. So, who is Ian McShane playing?

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-euron-greyjoy-pilou-asbaek-season-6-1201584050/ (http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-euron-greyjoy-pilou-asbaek-season-6-1201584050/)

I actually heard of him. But only because he hosted Eurovision. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on September 02, 2015, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 02, 2015, 02:06:18 PM
Some random Danish actor that only Liep must have heard about has been cast as Euron Greyjoy. So, who is Ian McShane playing?

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-euron-greyjoy-pilou-asbaek-season-6-1201584050/ (http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-euron-greyjoy-pilou-asbaek-season-6-1201584050/)

I've heard of him because he was in 'Borgen', but haven't seen anything he's been in. Apparently he's good and the other Danes on the show have all done well (Jaime, wildling chieftess, and Qotho) so he'll be fine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on September 02, 2015, 04:56:56 PM
He looks like slargos
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on September 02, 2015, 06:28:15 PM
I love him from Deadwood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on September 02, 2015, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on August 04, 2015, 01:30:14 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 04, 2015, 04:38:12 AM
I thought he was dead.

You're thinking of Saruman.

No, apparently I was thinking of Ingmar Bergman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on September 02, 2015, 07:53:28 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 02, 2015, 02:06:18 PMSo, who is Ian McShane playing?

Mad King flashback?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on September 02, 2015, 11:12:22 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 02, 2015, 07:53:28 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 02, 2015, 02:06:18 PMSo, who is Ian McShane playing?

Mad King flashback?

Good guess.  He would be excellent in the role
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on September 03, 2015, 03:08:56 AM
No fucking way - he would look ridiculous with his hair dyed platinum blonde.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on September 03, 2015, 03:09:57 AM
He could be Randyll Tarly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on September 03, 2015, 04:21:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 03, 2015, 03:08:56 AM
No fucking way - he would look ridiculous with his hair dyed platinum blonde.
They could have him gone white (and dirty).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on September 03, 2015, 07:13:21 AM
Want to go to the Land of Always Tinfoil? Check out Preston Jacob's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on September 03, 2015, 11:02:23 AM
Have to admit, I'm a junkie for his stuff and Alt-Shift-X's material.  There really is a lot of subtext to mine out of the tale so far and the video interpretations give me a lot more value out of the word--and also inspire re-reads.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 03, 2015, 11:11:57 AM
That was interesting, though I don't see how telepathy/telekinesis isn't considered magical.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 11:19:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2015, 04:21:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 03, 2015, 03:08:56 AM
No fucking way - he would look ridiculous with his hair dyed platinum blonde.
They could have him gone white (and dirty).

That is kind of what happened to my once blond locks  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on September 03, 2015, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 03, 2015, 11:02:23 AM
Have to admit, I'm a junkie for his stuff and Alt-Shift-X's material.  There really is a lot of subtext to mine out of the tale so far and the video interpretations give me a lot more value out of the word--and also inspire re-reads.

Enjoy this one then. :P Is Ser Pounce secretly Azor Ahai?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on September 03, 2015, 04:03:39 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 03, 2015, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 03, 2015, 11:02:23 AM
Have to admit, I'm a junkie for his stuff and Alt-Shift-X's material.  There really is a lot of subtext to mine out of the tale so far and the video interpretations give me a lot more value out of the word--and also inspire re-reads.

Enjoy this one then. :P Is Ser Pounce secretly Azor Ahai?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew)

I just realised Ser Pounce looks like Rufus.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on September 03, 2015, 05:20:34 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 03, 2015, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 03, 2015, 11:02:23 AM
Have to admit, I'm a junkie for his stuff and Alt-Shift-X's material.  There really is a lot of subtext to mine out of the tale so far and the video interpretations give me a lot more value out of the word--and also inspire re-reads.

Enjoy this one then. :P Is Ser Pounce secretly Azor Ahai?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew)

Already saw it, but that one definitely competes for the Tinfoil Crown.  It is, of course, also admitted by him that it is a really unplausible theory. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on September 04, 2015, 03:10:30 AM
If ASOIAF turns out to actually be Sci Fi, Martin will have to hide from the mob, forever. It would also be the most epic troll.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on September 11, 2015, 01:29:16 PM
 (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2Fwatch_zpsxcxbrzmp.jpg&hash=393e62b61535bcf51fe76c955b2996193ac95689) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/Habbaku/media/watch_zpsxcxbrzmp.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on September 11, 2015, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 04, 2015, 03:10:30 AM
If ASOIAF turns out to actually be Sci Fi, Martin will have to hide from the mob, forever. It would also be the most epic troll.
He is on record in interviews as saying the reason for the long winters is purely magical and nothing to do with a strange orbit or anything scientific.
So.....I guess not, but as you say it would be an epic troll
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on October 01, 2015, 04:04:47 PM
A guy recently sneaked into the area where they're currently shooting what is supposed to be the Tower of Joy scene, the castle of Zafra, in Guadalajara, and recorded a short video:

https://youtu.be/-RrsU3ndvHQ (https://youtu.be/-RrsU3ndvHQ)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on October 08, 2015, 09:02:08 AM
Latest internet theory:

Jon Snow and Meera Reed are twins.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on October 08, 2015, 10:22:21 AM
Dumb theory.  Right up there with Howland Reed being the High Septon or Roose Bolton being a centuries-old vampire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on October 08, 2015, 10:28:03 AM
Nah, not THAT dumb - it is at least plausible in that it would not violate any other "canon" so to speak. She seems about the right age anyway.

I agree that it would be kind of silly, given that there have been no foreshadowing, no reason, and plus it would be a pretty straight out rip off of Star Wars.

But hey, what else is there to do but talk about this shit?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on October 08, 2015, 10:30:42 AM
Well, that is more along the lines of what I mean--there has nothing even close to the level of foreshadowing about, say, Aegon (who is definitely not real) or Jon's lineage (which is all but settled).  The evidence, such as it is, is really circumspect and seems like wishful thinking.

I would prefer to talk about theories that actually have some backing and would be interesting, such as Sandor's current situation (Cleganebowl; GET HYPE!11), Brienne's lineage (some interesting reading there), and Stannis' soon to be epic victory over the Freys (T3H NORF REMEMBARS).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on November 14, 2015, 02:01:09 PM
Ian McShane provided a hint as to his role in the coming season:

[spoiler]"I'll give you one hint," McShane told Pop Goes The News. "I am responsible for bringing somebody back that you think you're never going to see again. I'll leave it at that."[/spoiler]

GET HYPE.

Prediction below:

[spoiler]"Ser? My lady?" said Podrick. "Is a broken man an outlaw?"

"More or less," Brienne answered.

Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

"Then they get a taste of battle.

"For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe.

"They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world . . .

"And the man breaks.

"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well."

When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"

"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."

"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.

"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on November 19, 2015, 09:17:09 AM
Deeper words have never been posted in Languish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 19, 2015, 09:32:37 AM
Quote from: Siege on November 19, 2015, 09:17:09 AM
Deeper words have never been posted in Languish.

Not even when you posted about the Singularity?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on November 21, 2015, 02:58:47 AM
Lady Stoneheart!!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on November 21, 2015, 11:59:21 AM
:unsure:  I doubt they are casting him as LSH.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on November 23, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUgtKITUAAEf_CC.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2015, 06:27:52 PM
So zombie Jon Snow unites the frost zombies and the Northerners, and conquers everyone else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on November 24, 2015, 12:12:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2015, 06:27:52 PM
So zombie Jon Snow unites the frost zombies and the Northerners, and conquers everyone else.
zombies don't bleed, so he ain't zombie ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on December 05, 2015, 05:15:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on November 24, 2015, 12:12:56 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2015, 06:27:52 PM
So zombie Jon Snow unites the frost zombies and the Northerners, and conquers everyone else.
zombies don't bleed, so he ain't zombie ;)

Who said it's his blood. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on December 05, 2015, 05:19:20 AM
I wonder if they are going for some sort of [spoiler]Arthas[/spoiler] angle with Jon. [spoiler]Becoming the new Night's King somehow to prevent the lands of the living from being overrun.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on December 05, 2015, 05:22:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 05, 2015, 05:19:20 AM
I wonder if they are going for some sort of [spoiler]Arthas[/spoiler] angle with Jon. [spoiler]Becoming the new Night's King somehow to prevent the lands of the living from being overrun.[/spoiler]

I doubt it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on December 06, 2015, 06:00:50 AM
I do think it won't be so simple as others=evil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on January 02, 2016, 12:21:52 PM
Martin says the book won't be done before the new season after he missed his deadline for publish. Still needs at least a month's work he says.

Big surprise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on January 02, 2016, 02:10:36 PM
Not really surprising at all.  I was expecting no less.

I do have strong hopes for the book to be finished this year, however.  GRRM seems really down on himself in the public post he made on the matter.  I have to think he won't let the novel slip into 2017.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on January 02, 2016, 02:14:07 PM
He's probably getting heat from publishers since they are missing on a lot of money by not releasing before the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on January 02, 2016, 02:15:40 PM
I don't think GRRM has ever given a shit about what his publishers think, at least beyond professional courtesy/personal relationships.  What kind of heat can they possibly give him?  He is immensely wealthy and can get his book printed with any company he wishes.  They have no power on him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 02, 2016, 02:23:22 PM
He's also missing out on money by not releasing before the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on January 02, 2016, 02:29:23 PM
And?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on January 02, 2016, 02:29:27 PM
Dude knows how to sport suspenders and a cap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 02, 2016, 02:40:27 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 02, 2016, 02:29:23 PM
And?

Some people are motivated by that. /shrug
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on January 02, 2016, 03:30:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 02, 2016, 02:40:27 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 02, 2016, 02:29:23 PM
And?

Some people are motivated by that. /shrug

Beyond a certain point, money becomes meaningless.  Martin seems past that point.  It's pretty obvious that he feels no real pressure to finish the book, other than personal pride.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on January 02, 2016, 03:34:46 PM
He has a personal pride?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on January 02, 2016, 03:46:05 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 02, 2016, 03:34:46 PM
He has a personal pride?

He is a personal pride.  At least part of him is, anyway.  The fat part, maybe not so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on January 05, 2016, 08:09:48 AM
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/george-r-r-martin-cannot-think-of-single-good-reason-to-finish-book-20160105105045

QuoteGeorge R R Martin cannot think of single good reason to finish book

AGEING multimillionaire George R R Martin has stopped writing the next Game of Thrones book while in the middle of a sentence.

Halfway through The Winds of Winter, Martin typed 'Tyrion looked darkly at' when he suddenly realised he was already very rich and quite old.

He said: "I was a hundred thousand words into this thing where I've got armies in one continent, zombies in another, dragons burning things all over the place and numerous uninteresting sub-plots involving minor noblemen whose names I cannot currently recall. It is, by anyone's reckoning, a fucking nightmare.

"I was looking at several more months of inhumanly hard graft and even then everyone is bound to slag it off as 'unsatisfying'.

"Meanwhile it is a lovely day outside and I am an older man with more money than I can possibly ever spend.

"You tell me why I should finish this? It's an honest question. Someone else can do it if they like, I'm cool with that."

Martin had already spent the morning wading through a massive Excel spreadsheet listing hundreds of characters as 'ALIVE', 'DEAD' or 'IN SOME SORT OF SKY DUNGEON', which he has since deleted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on January 05, 2016, 01:30:11 PM
Frankly I was annoyed he spent precious writing time writing that self-flagellating piece. We all know you are writing really slow on these last two books George. If we ever see them we will be pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I wish him best even if the series is never finished. He created it as an "unfilmable" series that became one of the most successful tv shows of all times. He has already given us more than most - he does not owe us anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on January 05, 2016, 02:00:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I wish him best even if the series is never finished. He created it as an "unfilmable" series that became one of the most successful tv shows of all times. He has already given us more than most - he does not owe us anything.

Indeed. Also why I found his apologetic note rather unsettling. He seems to be really wrestling with the strain of trying to finish this thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 05, 2016, 02:46:25 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 02, 2016, 02:10:36 PM
I have to think he won't let the novel slip into 2017.

He said he's "months away" even if the writing goes well.  Add in 3-4 months for the publisher to turn it around and it's easy to see him missing 2016.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 05, 2016, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I wish him best even if the series is never finished. He created it as an "unfilmable" series that became one of the most successful tv shows of all times. He has already given us more than most - he does not owe us anything.

He owes it to himself. Unfinished works tend to be forgotten.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on January 05, 2016, 05:00:10 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 05, 2016, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I wish him best even if the series is never finished. He created it as an "unfilmable" series that became one of the most successful tv shows of all times. He has already given us more than most - he does not owe us anything.

He owes it to himself. Unfinished works tend to be forgotten.

Like the Gospel of Mark?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on January 05, 2016, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2016, 08:09:48 AM
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/george-r-r-martin-cannot-think-of-single-good-reason-to-finish-book-20160105105045 (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/george-r-r-martin-cannot-think-of-single-good-reason-to-finish-book-20160105105045)

QuoteGeorge R R Martin cannot think of single good reason to finish book

AGEING multimillionaire George R R Martin has stopped writing the next Game of Thrones book while in the middle of a sentence.

Halfway through The Winds of Winter, Martin typed 'Tyrion looked darkly at' when he suddenly realised he was already very rich and quite old.

He said: "I was a hundred thousand words into this thing where I've got armies in one continent, zombies in another, dragons burning things all over the place and numerous uninteresting sub-plots involving minor noblemen whose names I cannot currently recall. It is, by anyone's reckoning, a fucking nightmare.

"I was looking at several more months of inhumanly hard graft and even then everyone is bound to slag it off as 'unsatisfying'.

"Meanwhile it is a lovely day outside and I am an older man with more money than I can possibly ever spend.

"You tell me why I should finish this? It's an honest question. Someone else can do it if they like, I'm cool with that."

Martin had already spent the morning wading through a massive Excel spreadsheet listing hundreds of characters as 'ALIVE', 'DEAD' or 'IN SOME SORT OF SKY DUNGEON', which he has since deleted.

Okay, we are clear that is isn't real right=?  Just making sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 05, 2016, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 05, 2016, 05:00:10 PM
Like the Gospel of Mark?

Easily the least well known of the four.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on January 05, 2016, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 05, 2016, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 05, 2016, 05:00:10 PM
Like the Gospel of Mark?

Easily the least well known of the four.

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 05:05:30 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 05, 2016, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I wish him best even if the series is never finished. He created it as an "unfilmable" series that became one of the most successful tv shows of all times. He has already given us more than most - he does not owe us anything.

He owes it to himself. Unfinished works tend to be forgotten.

Like
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 05, 2016, 05:08:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 05:05:30 PM
Like

:yes:

And
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: 11B4V on January 05, 2016, 06:04:51 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2016, 08:09:48 AM
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/george-r-r-martin-cannot-think-of-single-good-reason-to-finish-book-20160105105045

QuoteGeorge R R Martin cannot think of single good reason to finish book

AGEING multimillionaire George R R Martin has stopped writing the next Game of Thrones book while in the middle of a sentence.

Halfway through The Winds of Winter, Martin typed 'Tyrion looked darkly at' when he suddenly realised he was already very rich and quite old.

He said: "I was a hundred thousand words into this thing where I've got armies in one continent, zombies in another, dragons burning things all over the place and numerous uninteresting sub-plots involving minor noblemen whose names I cannot currently recall. It is, by anyone's reckoning, a fucking nightmare.

"I was looking at several more months of inhumanly hard graft and even then everyone is bound to slag it off as 'unsatisfying'.

"Meanwhile it is a lovely day outside and I am an older man with more money than I can possibly ever spend.

"You tell me why I should finish this? It's an honest question. Someone else can do it if they like, I'm cool with that."

Martin had already spent the morning wading through a massive Excel spreadsheet listing hundreds of characters as 'ALIVE', 'DEAD' or 'IN SOME SORT OF SKY DUNGEON', which he has since deleted.

I think he should leave it unfinished. That would be hilarious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on January 09, 2016, 10:55:05 AM
http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-and-8-hbo-1201674899/

Quote"Game of Thrones" is still four months away from the Season 6 premiere, but HBO is already talking with showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss about committing to a seventh and eighth season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Ender on January 10, 2016, 03:41:32 AM
Ahhhh those bitches sand snakes killed Myrcella!!!!

I just finished season 5.
I cried.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 23, 2016, 12:00:48 AM
http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thrones-teaser-hints-at-jon-snow-future-2016-1

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 23, 2016, 02:39:50 AM
Well yeah, I thought they gave that away when they did the poster with the blood on his mouth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on February 11, 2016, 04:44:08 PM
http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/exclusive-pictures-season-6

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.squarespace.com%2Fstatic%2F52fc05c9e4b08fc45bd99090%2F56bcd048555986e2a34a2522%2F56bce883cf80a105cd3089ce%2F1455221247065%2F072815_HS_DSC_8814a.jpg%3Fformat%3D1500w&hash=4d50f586b4e6b682d11e6e5e430a3245859dade2)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on February 11, 2016, 05:05:33 PM
I was hoping they saved mercyla (or however that's spelled)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 11, 2016, 05:07:04 PM
Quote from: HVC on February 11, 2016, 05:05:33 PM
I was hoping they saved mercyla (or however that's spelled)
I don't think they can.  All of Cersei's children have to predecease her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on February 11, 2016, 05:08:49 PM
Oh right, the prophecy. It was sappy but I liked her story line (on the tv show anyway)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 11, 2016, 05:15:35 PM
Quote from: HVC on February 11, 2016, 05:08:49 PM
Oh right, the prophecy. It was sappy but I liked her story line (on the tv show anyway)

Yeah, I did as well.  That's what the series does, though:  sucks you in, then rips out your heart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on February 11, 2016, 05:18:17 PM
The prophecy, BTW, is what make's Cersei's story so fascinating.  She is evil, but she is evil in an attempt to save her children's lives.  And we all know she is  evil in vain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 04, 2016, 01:05:33 PM
Ian McShane practically confirmed what his role will be in the next season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8K0403kvJk

It's vague, of course, but there are enough hints there that confirm it for me:

[spoiler]Septon Meribald, bringing back the Hound.  CLEGANEBOWL GET HYPE[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 01:10:11 PM
I'm excited already.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 04, 2016, 01:10:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tt04ZSlbZ0
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on March 04, 2016, 01:15:32 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 04, 2016, 01:10:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tt04ZSlbZ0

You bastard! Not fair!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 09, 2016, 06:28:26 PM
Someone found a hidden final frame from the new trailer:

http://i.imgur.com/tYh6Hup.jpg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2016, 01:45:09 AM
The effort to humanize Cersei is such a blatant move by the lamestream media to support Clinton's candidacy.

Meanwhile, they continue to show her socialist opponent type casted as a dangerous fanatic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2016, 01:47:33 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 04, 2016, 01:05:33 PM
Ian McShane practically confirmed what his role will be in the next season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8K0403kvJk

It's vague, of course, but there are enough hints there that confirm it for me:

[spoiler]Septon Meribald, bringing back the Hound.  CLEGANEBOWL GET HYPE[/spoiler]

[spoiler]"I won't say him or her but everyone thinks he's dead." [/spoiler] :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on March 10, 2016, 05:41:09 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 09, 2016, 06:28:26 PM
Someone found a hidden final frame from the new trailer:

http://i.imgur.com/tYh6Hup.jpg

The "HYPE" spelling in the flames is a nice touch.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 15, 2016, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 23, 2016, 12:00:48 AM
http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thrones-teaser-hints-at-jon-snow-future-2016-1



Could you tell us what that link says?
Dammit man. Get with the program.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 15, 2016, 12:10:18 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 10, 2016, 01:45:09 AM
The effort to humanize Cersei is such a blatant move by the lamestream media to support Clinton's candidacy.

Meanwhile, they continue to show her socialist opponent type casted as a dangerous fanatic.

Hahaha. You made my day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 15, 2016, 12:11:13 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 15, 2016, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 23, 2016, 12:00:48 AM
http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thrones-teaser-hints-at-jon-snow-future-2016-1



Could you tell us what that link says?
Dammit man. Get with the program.

Jon Snow and Ramsay Bolton get married.  The Bastard Wedding, it will be called, and result in hentai the likes of which has never been seen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on March 15, 2016, 12:54:19 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 15, 2016, 12:11:13 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 15, 2016, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 23, 2016, 12:00:48 AM
http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thrones-teaser-hints-at-jon-snow-future-2016-1



Could you tell us what that link says?
Dammit man. Get with the program.

Jon Snow and Ramsay Bolton get married.  The Bastard Wedding, it will be called, and result in hentai the likes of which has never been seen.

You just burned the little visualization app in my mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 11, 2016, 12:59:20 PM
The new trailer is out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0ib1NErqg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 11, 2016, 01:26:10 PM
It's not like they needed to tease me as I was already 100% sold, but I still enjoyed that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 11, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Question:  what happens when you burn a Targaryen?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 12, 2016, 03:32:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 11, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Question:  what happens when you burn a Targaryen?
Judging by the example of Aegon V Targaryen:  Nothing special.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 12, 2016, 04:59:02 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 12, 2016, 03:32:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 11, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Question:  what happens when you burn a Targaryen?
Judging by the example of Aegon V Targaryen:  Nothing special.

I'm not sure we know that.  We also don't know that Jon is dead-dead, but don't they burn their dead at the Wall?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 12, 2016, 05:10:16 AM
We do know that Viserys melted into a pile of goo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 12, 2016, 09:47:08 AM
GRRM is so random when it comes to the Targaryens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 12, 2016, 09:48:33 AM
Basicly crazy Targaryens burn, gifted Targaryens have superpowers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 12, 2016, 11:53:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 12, 2016, 09:48:33 AM
Basicly crazy Targaryens burn, gifted Targaryens have superpowers.

The only reason Daenarys lived is because of the dragons.  To my knowledge, none have had a comparable incident happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 12, 2016, 12:30:17 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 12, 2016, 09:47:08 AM
GRRM is so random when it comes to the Targaryens.
or maybe Daenerys is a bastard child.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 12, 2016, 12:35:35 PM
Who do you think fathered the child, if not The Mad King?

I don't think there is any evidence of Daenarys being a bastard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 12, 2016, 12:43:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 12, 2016, 12:35:35 PM
Who do you think fathered the child, if not The Mad King?

I don't think there is any evidence of Daenarys being a bastard.

Rhaegar. He had sex with his own mother thus being the father of she and Viserys. I bet you didn't see that one coming.

Oh wait that doesn't work. Rhaegar is the Mad King's son so...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 12, 2016, 03:25:49 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2016, 05:10:16 AM
We do know that Viserys melted into a pile of goo.

Gold-infused goo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 12, 2016, 04:24:39 PM
A theory that came to mind for me today- the long night they speak of...... night is basically a shadow. Shadow is fire magic. The long night and the winters are unrelated.  They merely clashed at some point in history as part of a war between ice and fire.
All part of my grand "the others aren't acually so evil" theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maximus on April 12, 2016, 04:34:47 PM
I don't think being a Targaryen is enough, you probably also need to be linked with a dragon. Hell, being a Targ may not even be necessary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 12, 2016, 05:01:53 PM
Quote from: Maximus on April 12, 2016, 04:34:47 PM
I don't think being a Targaryen is enough, you probably also need to be linked with a dragon. Hell, being a Targ may not even be necessary.

Probably not, but Valyrian blood seems to be a requirement.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 20, 2016, 11:35:52 AM
Episode names for s6-

The Red Woman   
Home
Oathbreaker


1 & 3- hmm.....very Jonny.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 20, 2016, 12:02:21 PM
Oathbreaker can be lots of people ... Jaime, Jorah, Arya, Brienne, The Hound, the Unsullied...
Could be related to Brienne's sword Oathkeeper.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 20, 2016, 12:07:43 PM
*still holding out for LSH*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 20, 2016, 12:11:31 PM
I am looking forward to seeing what the writers can do now that they are essentially breaking new ground.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 20, 2016, 12:12:10 PM
Didn't like LSH in the books. Cut her out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 20, 2016, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2016, 12:07:43 PM
*still holding out for LSH*
they were very explicit she would not be in the tv show in the past. Dead is dead and all that.  It would surprise me if she did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 20, 2016, 03:50:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2016, 12:07:43 PM
*still holding out for LSH*

Srsly.  I hope The Red Woman is referring to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2016, 04:13:51 PM
Who is LSH?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 20, 2016, 04:19:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2016, 04:13:51 PM
Who is LSH?

Lady Stoneheart, I guess. Don't see the need to put it in acronym.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 20, 2016, 04:23:14 PM
Former heavyweight champion Larry Holmes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 20, 2016, 04:29:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 20, 2016, 12:12:10 PM
Didn't like LSH in the books. Cut her out.

Agreed.  An easily-dispensed-with character who ads nothing to the story but an increased challenge to suspension of disbelief and a small element of horror.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 20, 2016, 04:44:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 20, 2016, 04:19:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2016, 04:13:51 PM
Who is LSH?

Lady Stoneheart, I guess. Don't see the need to put it in acronym.

I don't even remember that name from the books. I thought she was still called Catelyn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 21, 2016, 03:30:35 AM
Zombie Mountain, and Jon will be more than enough of Martin's "hah, you thought I kill everyone but in fact I kill NOBODY!" shtick, thankyouverymuch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 21, 2016, 06:15:31 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 20, 2016, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 20, 2016, 12:07:43 PM
*still holding out for LSH*
they were very explicit she would not be in the tv show in the past. Dead is dead and all that.  It would surprise me if she did.

They were also explicit Jon Snow is dead and noone believes that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 21, 2016, 06:30:31 AM
Jon Snow is dead, though, he'll just get rezzed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 21, 2016, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 21, 2016, 03:30:35 AM
Zombie Mountain, and Jon will be more than enough of Martin's "hah, you thought I kill everyone but in fact I kill NOBODY!" shtick, thankyouverymuch.

There are literally dozens of characters, from major to minor, that aren't being resurrected.  And LSH hardly counts as being an original of what she was...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 22, 2016, 04:15:23 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 21, 2016, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 21, 2016, 03:30:35 AM
Zombie Mountain, and Jon will be more than enough of Martin's "hah, you thought I kill everyone but in fact I kill NOBODY!" shtick, thankyouverymuch.

There are literally dozens of characters, from major to minor, that aren't being resurrected.  And LSH hardly counts as being an original of what she was...

I don't care I still don't like the whol resurrection business.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 22, 2016, 04:30:10 AM
GRRM also likes to make chapter endings that make you think a character is dead or hurt but really isn't.

A couple of examples is when the Hound smacks Arya with an axe and when a chapter ends with Tyrion drowning when the stone men attack.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2016, 09:12:08 PM
Okay.  THAT I did not expect.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 24, 2016, 10:19:35 PM
Dorne was boring and useless in the book, and it's even more so on the tv show
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 24, 2016, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2016, 10:19:35 PM
Dorne was boring and useless in the book, and it's even more so on the tv show

Some people appreciated the jailbit tits.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 24, 2016, 10:31:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 24, 2016, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2016, 10:19:35 PM
Dorne was boring and useless in the book, and it's even more so on the tv show

Some people appreciated the jailbit tits.
:D ok I'll give you that
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 24, 2016, 11:11:36 PM
Brienne of Motherfucking Tarth.  :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 24, 2016, 11:16:36 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2016, 10:19:35 PM
Dorne was boring and useless in the book, and it's even more so on the tv show

It has much more of a purpose than it does in the show.  I think they just wanted to be done with the storyline there instead of utilizing it for anything.  Now they can conveniently pretend it doesn't exist until they need a Dornish army to appear...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 24, 2016, 11:29:43 PM
But even in the book the basement bbq means the dorne storyline goes nowhere since we now know what happens to Marcella anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 24, 2016, 11:48:47 PM
Oh great more female full frontal nudity already on the first episode.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 25, 2016, 12:39:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 24, 2016, 11:48:47 PM
Oh great more female full frontal nudity already on the first episode.  :rolleyes:
about time.  General tv is flooded with gay stuff, but hopefully, we can still count on HBO for something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 25, 2016, 01:03:54 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2016, 11:29:43 PM
But even in the book the basement bbq means the dorne storyline goes nowhere since we now know what happens to Marcella anyway.

You're assuming the point of the Dorne storyline is Quentyn.  I don't agree with that at all.  The Dorne storyline seems, to me, to be centered around Dorne attempting to side with and put a Targaryen on the throne again, which they are doing in the books, and probably will end up doing in the show, in abbreviated form.  The Sand Snakes will almost certainly side with Daenarys when she makes her landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 01:15:08 AM
I gotta say that, from the first episode, the two storylines I am most looking forward to are of payback and revenge - Sansa's on Boltons and Freys and Jaime's and Cersei's on the entire world (starting with that old sanctimonious prick). I hope Weiss and Benioff are going to wreck their plans with a few curve balls too.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 01:19:08 AM
Not a massive amount of plot development in the first episode.

Well, I guess Dorne developed a bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 01:25:02 AM
I thought there was more plot development than in most first episodes to date. You had Sansa being rescued by Brienne (which means Ramsay is fucked), Danny being sent off to the equivalent of elderly home, the Dorne coup and the big Melissandre reveal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 01:28:50 AM
Btw, isn't it funny how after a year the whole wildling debate that Snow and Thorne had (and led to Snow being killed) feels much closer home after the refugee crisis? :P

Is Angela Merkel the Azor Ahai?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 25, 2016, 02:20:13 AM
I don't get this show. Why do they do these things...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2016, 05:01:12 AM
Quote from: Jaron on April 25, 2016, 02:20:13 AM
I don't get this show. Why do they do these things...

To make money.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 25, 2016, 09:31:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 21, 2016, 06:30:31 AM
Jon Snow is dead, though, he'll just get rezzed.

yes. Anyone who's seen Jesus movies would have noticed the parallelism between the scene with Snow's follower's huddled together in the room scared of what's going on and the scene with Christs disciples gathered in a room in Jerusalem wondering what's going to happen to them after Jesus dies.

But Jesus, as some of you may know, rose. As will Snow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 25, 2016, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 01:19:08 AM
Not a massive amount of plot development in the first episode.

Well, I guess Dorne developed a bit.

Same as last year's first episode. They tend to spend a few episodes setting the scenes up. Need to be patient.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 25, 2016, 09:38:13 AM
Quote from: Jaron on April 25, 2016, 02:20:13 AM
I don't get this show. Why do they do these things...

Because a quick PUG run to the Boss is boring TV


Quote from: Josephus on April 25, 2016, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 01:19:08 AM
Not a massive amount of plot development in the first episode.

Well, I guess Dorne developed a bit.

Same as last year's first episode. They tend to spend a few episodes setting the scenes up. Need to be patient.

Agreed.  I thought they did a good job orienting us to the plot lines they were developing and each plot line was moved along.  A lot was packed into that one hour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 25, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
In and of itself it's weird that they're guarding the body. They don't know that the red witch can Rez people, do they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 25, 2016, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 25, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
In and of itself it's weird that they're guarding the body. They don't know that the red witch can Rez people, do they?

It would have made less sense if they simply left the body where it was.  They don't need knowledge of the potential for resurrection to protect the body of a murdered comrade.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on April 25, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
There was a bored-looking string quartet playing the GoT theme over and over again at Liverpool Street station this morning. Posted to FB if anyone's interested. Quite attractive women if that helps!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2016, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 25, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
In and of itself it's weird that they're guarding the body. They don't know that the red witch can Rez people, do they?

The red witch can't rez people as a red priestess.  Even she was astonished when Thoros of Myr proved able to do that, and he couldn't do it until he renounced his priesthood.

Not too surprising that his friends are guarding Jon's body, given what they know can happen to unguarded bodies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 25, 2016, 12:30:49 PM
But that's the point. His friends should the the first ones to want to burn John so that he dies t come back as an undead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 25, 2016, 12:36:54 PM
Melisandre was rather surprising for a first episode. I wonder if that means she's done...?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 12:49:27 PM
There are so far three main theories circulating about the Red Woman after the last episode:

1. She has always been that old and the show offers a major reveal.
2. All her magic to date has actually aged her and she is almost done.
3. She has started some spell to rez Jon Snow - in a life for life way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 12:53:34 PM
How are we treating spoilers in this thread?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 12:54:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 12:53:34 PM
How are we treating spoilers in this thread?

I think we assume people have watched the latest episode, and given that the show is no longer anywhere in the books territory, I assume there are no spoilers - just speculations - left.

It's actually kinda refreshing. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 25, 2016, 12:58:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 12:49:27 PM
There are so far three main theories circulating about the Red Woman after the last episode:

1. She has always been that old and the show offers a major reveal.
2. All her magic to date has actually aged her and she is almost done.
3. She has started some spell to rez Jon Snow - in a life for life way.


Her ADWD chapter implies that she's really that old, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2016, 01:27:07 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 25, 2016, 12:30:49 PM
But that's the point. His friends should the the first ones to want to burn John so that he dies t come back as an undead.

But that's the point: in doing so they would be killed. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2016, 01:30:26 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 25, 2016, 12:58:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 12:49:27 PM
There are so far three main theories circulating about the Red Woman after the last episode:

1. She has always been that old and the show offers a major reveal.
2. All her magic to date has actually aged her and she is almost done.
3. She has started some spell to rez Jon Snow - in a life for life way.


Her ADWD chapter implies that she's really that old, IIRC.

That's my recollection as well.  The show is clearly exaggerating for effect (no one with those muscles could get on a horse), but I think the gem just hides her actual age.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 25, 2016, 02:07:38 PM
I liked the nod to Monty Python with the conversation among the khal and his two blood riders.
IT'S AMONG THE TOP FIVE!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 02:23:43 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 25, 2016, 02:07:38 PM
I liked the nod to Monty Python with the conversation among the khal and his two blood riders.
IT'S AMONG THE TOP FIVE!!

Yeah, funny scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 25, 2016, 02:53:55 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 25, 2016, 02:07:38 PM
I liked the nod to Monty Python with the conversation among the khal and his two blood riders.
IT'S AMONG THE TOP FIVE!!

:lol:

Yeah, I loved that scene
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 25, 2016, 02:55:23 PM
Well. That was....an episode. Nothing much happened.
Oh. Except the revolution in Dorne. The show's way of bringing in Faegon's effect on the south without having to introduce Faegon?
The Melisandre revelation- well duh. A bit of a damp squib really, I was expecting her to be much horrible looking underneath the glamour rather than just old. I was expecting house of the undying style living corpse stuff. Thinking about it, I think when 'Angel' did a similar thing with a magic pretty woman hiding a horrible maggoty monster.
Wonder why she revealed herself like that though, she does it every night before bed?...never got that impression.

And yes. The what have the Romans ever done for us conversation was nice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 25, 2016, 02:57:02 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 12:53:34 PM
How are we treating spoilers in this thread?
It's a dedicated thread to the show, like the Walking Dead.  Imho, we come here at our own risks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 25, 2016, 04:26:32 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 25, 2016, 02:55:23 PM
Oh. Except the revolution in Dorne. The show's way of bringing in Faegon's effect on the south without having to introduce Faegon?

:yes:  Precisely.  I don't like the change, but only because I wish they had more time.  Dorne has completely sucked this entire time, and I'm not unhappy they decided to hurry things up there if they were just going to butcher the plot.  This accomplishes the same thing (Dornish support against the Lannisters) without too much screen time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 25, 2016, 04:27:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2016, 12:54:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 12:53:34 PM
How are we treating spoilers in this thread?

I think we assume people have watched the latest episode, and given that the show is no longer anywhere in the books territory, I assume there are no spoilers - just speculations - left.

It's actually kinda refreshing. :)

Agreed.  If you haven't seen the most recent episode, you should just steer clear of this thread.  Other than that...wild speculation time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2016, 05:14:57 PM
I guess the question is: had Melissandre had that amulet on herself in previous seasons? If yes, she is indeed that old. If not, the amulet is a spell to transfer her life powers to Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2016, 05:31:52 PM
My sense from the last scene was they were foreshadowing some great personal sacrifice on Mesalindre's part, like trading her life for Jon's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on April 25, 2016, 06:10:43 PM
I saw it more as Melisandre is broken.

Stannis is dead. Jon is dead.

All that she saw in the fires did not come to pass. Taking the amulet off was her breaking with her faith and returning feebly to bed. Maybe she hopes to die in her sleep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 25, 2016, 06:24:31 PM
Someone noted on the GoT forums that Thoros of Myr resurrected Berric Dondarrion only after he had lost all hope...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2016, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 25, 2016, 05:14:57 PM
I guess the question is: had Melissandre had that amulet on herself in previous seasons? If yes, she is indeed that old. If not, the amulet is a spell to transfer her life powers to Jon.
She had it in every scene except the bathing scene she has with Selyse.  Someone who has watched that scene again posted that it is pretty obvious, in hindsight, that Selyse is seeing her as she really is in that scene, and that explains why Selyse is not jealous of her with Stannis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 25, 2016, 06:31:36 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2016, 06:24:31 PM
Someone noted on the GoT forums that Thoros of Myr resurrected Berric Dondarrion only after he had lost all hope...

Somebody posted that here, as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 25, 2016, 07:03:25 PM
It is important to note that Thoros was not able to do his resurrection tricks until after his crisis of faith.

Just thought maybe you guys did't know that...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on April 25, 2016, 10:48:17 PM
Olly grew fast just one night after killing Jon Snow. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 25, 2016, 11:46:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 25, 2016, 07:03:25 PM
It is important to note that Thoros was not able to do his resurrection tricks until after his crisis of faith.

Just thought maybe you guys did't know that...

Iirc there was a connection between the dragons re-entering the world and magic beginning to work/become more powerful.   If the red woman is really very old and she uses a glamour spell of some sort to make herself look youthful then her magic is perhaps unaffected by the presence of the dragon or a crisis of her faith.

Thoros on the other hand seems to have been directly affected by the dragons entering the world.  He had a crisis of faith but then, after the dragons came back, he was able to do things he had previously not been able to do.  Or am I not remembering that part correctly?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 26, 2016, 12:34:39 AM
Just checked this bathing scene. She is indeed without the amulet. Strange. Can't help but think it might be a mistake as she clearly looks normal there.
The theory that selyse sees her as she is is a good one... but odd they'd show the viewers something different.

Thoros. ... I never saw his crisis as linked with his magic. It seems to me he has never been the best of priests. It was solidly dragon related.
However quite clearly there was magic in the east even without dragons.  And Mel is a lot more powerful than Thoros.
Has it ever been said how long Mel was at stannis' court?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 12:39:00 AM
Could be the Red Woman remembers the Old Valyria.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2016, 12:47:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2016, 11:46:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 25, 2016, 07:03:25 PM
It is important to note that Thoros was not able to do his resurrection tricks until after his crisis of faith.

Just thought maybe you guys did't know that...

Iirc there was a connection between the dragons re-entering the world and magic beginning to work/become more powerful.   If the red woman is really very old and she uses a glamour spell of some sort to make herself look youthful then her magic is perhaps unaffected by the presence of the dragon or a crisis of her faith.

Thoros on the other hand seems to have been directly affected by the dragons entering the world.  He had a crisis of faith but then, after the dragons came back, he was able to do things he had previously not been able to do.  Or am I not remembering that part correctly?

She learnt her magic in Ashai didn't she? Could have tapped into a different source of power there. Or perhaps the amulet is centuries old and will work on whoever wears it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Norgy on April 26, 2016, 01:49:59 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 25, 2016, 10:48:17 PM
Olly grew fast just one night after killing Jon Snow. :D

Maybe killing transferred some power to him after he had a crisis of faith?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 26, 2016, 01:50:07 AM
A thought on the amulet given the bath scene.
Maybe instead of being a cloaking device the amulet is simply a magic amplifier?
In the time if dragons Mel is strong. She doesn't usually need it to keep up her glamour. Though recent events have fucked her up a bit and taking off the amulet confirms as she suspected, that she doesnt have the power to keep up the glamour without it.

This would also help to explain how she was able to get into a powerful position even pre dragons
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2016, 02:58:40 AM
Or maybe the show people just forgot to write that she was wearing it for that scene because they were not counting on this episode's reveal.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 26, 2016, 04:00:07 AM
Also a possibility.
Though the amulet being magic and her having some sort of glamour and not being what she appears is pretty established from the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2016, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2016, 04:00:07 AM
Also a possibility.
Though the amulet being magic and her having some sort of glamour and not being what she appears is pretty established from the books.

Yes, in the books it's a heavily implied thing.

Btw, oh Dorne, what a travesty of a plotline they've made of you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 26, 2016, 04:40:17 AM
Alexander Siddig was horribly wasted on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2016, 05:04:31 AM
My current theory on Dorne is that the show is setting up a future moral dilemma for Daenerys: Dorne is a "friend" because against the Lannisters, but also an enemy because they will declare independence.  I agree with those who think that, th Red Viper bits excepted, the Dorne plotline in both book and show has been a big distraction without payoff yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 26, 2016, 07:21:37 AM
Although I've read the books and watched the show, I'm not following as closely as you guys. How powerful are the Lannisters at this point? They've still got the King but the sparrows seem to be the main power at King's Landing. The family seems to have little intellectual firepower left. Are the Tyrells still with them now Margaery's looked up? The Freys?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 26, 2016, 07:33:11 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 26, 2016, 07:21:37 AM
Although I've read the books and watched the show, I'm not following as closely as you guys. How powerful are the Lannisters at this point? They've still got the King but the sparrows seem to be the main power at King's Landing. The family seems to have little intellectual firepower left. Are the Tyrells still with them now Margaery's looked up? The Freys?

They control most of the royal power through Tommen, but their position is weaker and weaker as times goes by, and as Cersei's tenuous grip on sanity after her imprisonment slips by. The Tyrells are still theoretically by their side but aren't happy at all about having Margaery AND Loras locked up. The Freys are still by their side and in the process of supplanting the Tullys as Lords of the Riverlands. We should see some action around there this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 26, 2016, 07:37:24 AM
Thanks Larchie. Who's running the Storm lands these days?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 07:40:04 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 26, 2016, 07:21:37 AM
Although I've read the books and watched the show, I'm not following as closely as you guys. How powerful are the Lannisters at this point? They've still got the King but the sparrows seem to be the main power at King's Landing. The family seems to have little intellectual firepower left. Are the Tyrells still with them now Margaery's looked up? The Freys?

They are the colossus with the feet of clay. They have no open rival left as both Starks and Stannis are gone - but their power has greatly eroded since its height before Joffrey's death and it is slipping each day.

I mean, of the Seven Kingdoms, they control Casterly Rock, but at least four (the North, the Vale, Dorne and the Iron Islands) are essentially on a brink of an open rebellion, with the remaining two (Stormlands and the Reach) are loyal to Tyrells who can do a turnabout at any moment (it makes you wonder actually if the silence from Mace and Olenna over Margeary and Loras being imprisoned is just because the plot would be too crowded, or because they are actually up to something) and Riverlands (not a Kingdom technically) are in a civil war, and Freys, obviously, are treacherous as they come (and Walder Frey is making a come back this season).

They are also deeply in debt, and as you point out, even in the King's Landing their control is far from absolute.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 26, 2016, 07:37:24 AM
Thanks Larchie. Who's running the Storm lands these days?

I assume it's Lannisters (through Tommen), but would not be surprised if it was actually somehow controlled by Tyrells. Incidentally, I wonder if anyone actually bothered to capture the Dragon Stone after Stannis has left for the Wall.

Edit: Actually, according to the wiki, it appears most of it is loyal to Tommen, but Storm's End has been controlled by Stannis - in the books it is actually being besieged about the same time as the tv series is right now, by Mace Tyrell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on April 26, 2016, 08:07:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 07:42:46 AM


Edit: Actually, according to the wiki, it appears most of it is loyal to Tommen, but Storm's End has been controlled by Stannis - in the books it is actually being besieged about the same time as the tv series is right now, by Mace Tyrell.

Oh, yeah, I remember that now.

One last question, why do you say that the north is in open rebellion? I thought the Boltons were still allied with the Lannisters?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 26, 2016, 08:10:37 AM
Iirc some of the more northern families (bear islands?) haven't sworn allegence to the boltons and there's an issue with the karstarks since the male line is dead and the castellion wants to marry the daughter. Lastly the house of Ramsey's first wife is none to pleased how she died.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 26, 2016, 08:55:27 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 26, 2016, 08:07:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 07:42:46 AM


Edit: Actually, according to the wiki, it appears most of it is loyal to Tommen, but Storm's End has been controlled by Stannis - in the books it is actually being besieged about the same time as the tv series is right now, by Mace Tyrell.

Oh, yeah, I remember that now.

One last question, why do you say that the north is in open rebellion? I thought the Boltons were still allied with the Lannisters?

Kinda but Bolton had Sansa marry is bastard son.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 10:50:59 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 26, 2016, 08:07:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 07:42:46 AM


Edit: Actually, according to the wiki, it appears most of it is loyal to Tommen, but Storm's End has been controlled by Stannis - in the books it is actually being besieged about the same time as the tv series is right now, by Mace Tyrell.

Oh, yeah, I remember that now.

One last question, why do you say that the north is in open rebellion? I thought the Boltons were still allied with the Lannisters?

Boltons essentially rebelled when Ramsay married Sansa. I am not sure to what extent Lannisters are aware of that but it is only a matter of time before they do. Roose actually says to Ramsay in the last episode that even if he routed Stannis's force, that's nowhere near what defeating a disciplined Lannister army would be like.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2016, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 10:50:59 AM
Quote from: Gups on April 26, 2016, 08:07:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2016, 07:42:46 AM


Edit: Actually, according to the wiki, it appears most of it is loyal to Tommen, but Storm's End has been controlled by Stannis - in the books it is actually being besieged about the same time as the tv series is right now, by Mace Tyrell.

Oh, yeah, I remember that now.

One last question, why do you say that the north is in open rebellion? I thought the Boltons were still allied with the Lannisters?

Boltons essentially rebelled when Ramsay married Sansa. I am not sure to what extent Lannisters are aware of that but it is only a matter of time before they do. Roose actually says to Ramsay in the last episode that even if he routed Stannis's force, that's nowhere near what defeating a disciplined Lannister army would be like.

And he also mentioned the real danger of Sansa's escape.  They need the forces of the North to defeat the Lannisters.  Without Sansa the Bolton rebellion is doomed.  And, of course, their most immediate danger is Sansa herself rallying her father's bannermen against the Boltons.

The question is, how does this play into Littlefinger's plans - help or hindrance?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2016, 11:20:26 AM
I am quite convinced the original intention with Littlefinger and Sansa (in the books) was for him to marry her both for personal reasons and to make a claim on the North eventually, but this was deemed too long a plotline for the TV show, and thus shall probably be dropped by Martin as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2016, 11:24:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2016, 11:20:26 AM
I am quite convinced the original intention with Littlefinger and Sansa (in the books) was for him to marry her both for personal reasons and to make a claim on the North eventually, but this was deemed too long a plotline for the TV show, and thus shall probably be dropped by Martin as well.

God I hope not. I have been waiting for Harry the Heir for 11 fucking years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 26, 2016, 11:28:12 AM
Littlefinger's machinations re: Harry is the focus of one of the released Winds of Winter chapters, so I think it's still in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2016, 11:37:18 AM
Harry who?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2016, 11:44:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2016, 11:37:18 AM
Harry who?

Harrold Hardyng

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Harrold_Hardyng
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 26, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2016, 11:37:18 AM
Harry who?
dude from the vale. Heir of little lord Robert.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2016, 12:59:39 PM
Gups, in addition to all the other Lannister weaknesses mentioned, their gold mines are tapped out.  I blame Thatcher.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on April 26, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
I thought the Lannister gold crisis was an scheme to default on the iron bank.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2016, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 26, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
I thought the Lannister gold crisis was an scheme to default on the iron bank.

Where did you get this from?

If it's a scheme it's a dumbass scheme.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2016, 03:16:59 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2016, 11:20:26 AM
I am quite convinced the original intention with Littlefinger and Sansa (in the books) was for him to marry her both for personal reasons and to make a claim on the North eventually, but this was deemed too long a plotline for the TV show, and thus shall probably be dropped by Martin as well.

Why would Martin drop it.  The books and TV show have diverged, and that is infinitely to Martin's advantage.  He's still working towards his end, and the show towards its.  I very much doubt they will be the same end.  Having the same ending would make the books redundant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 26, 2016, 03:20:55 PM
I thought the show writers knew GRRM's ending and we're working towards the same ending, if not the exact same trail?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2016, 03:23:21 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 26, 2016, 03:20:55 PM
I thought the show writers knew GRRM's ending and we're working towards the same ending, if not the exact same trail?

The books and the show have already diverged significantly enough that it would be unlikely that they end up in the same spot.  In any event, as Grumbler said, that wouldn't make much commercial sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 27, 2016, 12:07:09 PM
I would still read the books, even if the show borrowed from GRRM's plans.

I mean...they're, you know, so well-written and everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 27, 2016, 12:26:28 PM
Interesting theory on Azhor Ahai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7sh3rG96Ew

:hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 27, 2016, 01:35:39 PM
Well...

Ser Pounce:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frack.0.mshcdn.com%2Fmedia%2FZgkyMDE0LzA0LzI4L2VkL1Npci5Qb3VuY2UxLjExNWQ1LnBuZwpwCXRodW1iCTk1MHg1MzQjCmUJanBn%2Fdb5090cf%2Fab7%2FSir.Pounce1.jpg&hash=aebebf01ed9ae299263d50e77abe45935ed53784)

My cat, Rufus:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/v/t35.0-12/10621661_10152343304076849_1855052638_o.jpg?oh=09e7b609c92fc36ab03cc376f900a4df&oe=5722E072&__gda__=1461961995_a9a4c44d1c0371fbed2ad5c542a88585)

:ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 27, 2016, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 26, 2016, 03:20:55 PM
I thought the show writers knew GRRM's ending and we're working towards the same ending, if not the exact same trail?
that was the plan when they started.  I don't know if it still holds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 29, 2016, 06:46:40 AM
Heard an interesting theory today.
Jon is dead.
He isn't coming back.
The reason they did the Mel cloaking reveal?
Davos is going to take Jons place.

I don't believe it. But interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:41:42 AM
Jon is not dead. I know GRRM is all about subverting narrative tropes, but it would simply be poor storytelling to build his backstory so much just to kill him off.

Plus, he is a Chekov's corpse - there is a reason why they spend so much time around it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 29, 2016, 07:51:52 AM
Well, he is dead. It is just not a permanent state.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:56:33 AM
Yeah, you know what I mean. :P

I think GRRM/Weiss/Benioff subverting the trope in his case, however, will mean that he will not come back fully himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on April 29, 2016, 08:17:22 AM
Interesting idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 29, 2016, 08:40:49 AM
GRRM is gonna pet cemetery Jon? I still think that in the book hell warg into his wolf and eventually a dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2016, 08:52:49 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 29, 2016, 07:51:52 AM
Well, he is dead. It is just not a permanent state.

He's just asleep - though now they've stunned him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2016, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:56:33 AM
Yeah, you know what I mean. :P

I think GRRM/Weiss/Benioff subverting the trope in his case, however, will mean that he will not come back fully himself.

Yeah, that's consistent with what Dondorrian (sp?) experienced.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2016, 09:35:39 AM
I think he is alive and inhabiting the dire wolf atm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on April 29, 2016, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2016, 09:35:39 AM
I think he is alive and inhabiting the dire wolf atm.

This seems the most reasonable theory to fit all the facts. (If it was real, him being truly dead would, but that ignores his position in the tv show)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 30, 2016, 04:33:27 AM
I never got too into the dire wolf theory. Seems unnecessary with Mel around. Unless it's some way to get around the resurrected as a lessened person thing?
But that feels cheap.

Plus in the tv show have they ever gone into Jon warging? Can't remember it in recent series at the least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2016, 08:25:48 AM
They did go into unnecessary detail on the Wildling warging into the eagle, so my guess is that that was shown to set up a main character doing the same.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on April 30, 2016, 08:28:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 30, 2016, 08:25:48 AM
They did go into unnecessary detail on the Wildling warging into the eagle, so my guess is that that was shown to set up a main character doing the same.

Or that was just to show Bran's powers are not unique.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on April 30, 2016, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2016, 01:03:54 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2016, 11:29:43 PM
But even in the book the basement bbq means the dorne storyline goes nowhere since we now know what happens to Marcella anyway.

You're assuming the point of the Dorne storyline is Quentyn.  I don't agree with that at all.  The Dorne storyline seems, to me, to be centered around Dorne attempting to side with and put a Targaryen on the throne again, which they are doing in the books, and probably will end up doing in the show, in abbreviated form.  The Sand Snakes will almost certainly side with Daenarys when she makes her landing.

The point of the Dorne storyline is that they (with the Facelessmen and Varys) are the primary opposition to the Bloodraven faction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on April 30, 2016, 11:19:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:41:42 AM
Jon is not dead. I know GRRM is all about subverting narrative tropes, but it would simply be poor storytelling to build his backstory so much just to kill him off.

Plus, he is a Chekov's corpse - there is a reason why they spend so much time around it.

Jon's gone forever in Ghost. Bran will warg Jon (and soon-dead Jaime) to become the three-headed dragon, living out his fantasy of being a hero knight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2016, 04:58:05 PM
Hype machine is running at full speed tonight.  There might actually be some plot advancement!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 01, 2016, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 01, 2016, 04:58:05 PM
Hype machine is running at full speed tonight.  There might actually be some plot advancement!

Hope it doesn't get in the way of good nudity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 01, 2016, 09:07:45 PM
All the giants and mountains had a good moment in this episode.

I'm not sure the show isn't making the same mistake with Roose that they made with Tywin; those competent scheming characters are scarce as hen's teeth and they can drive the show.  Killing them without need is wasteful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 01, 2016, 10:42:10 PM
Another entertaining episode.  While there may be disputes about plot choices, one cannot debate that lots happen these first episodes compared the beginning of past seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 01, 2016, 10:55:37 PM
I knew that Jon was coming back, but I was hoping they made Melisandre's efforts to bring him back more meaningful in some fashion. It was kind of a yawner.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 01, 2016, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 01, 2016, 10:55:37 PM
I knew that Jon was coming back, but I was hoping they made Melisandre's efforts to bring him back more meaningful in some fashion. It was kind of a yawner.

It was a climactic anticlimax.

I began to worry that it would not happen and that just maybe the actors/producers had been telling the truth all along.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2016, 11:32:24 PM
I expect the killing of papa Bolton will unleash all kinds of unpleasant repercussions.

Always a bummer when the parental advisory doesn't mention nudity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2016, 11:49:19 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FObXQ3Tz.jpg&hash=b0f7e0be7beeef630da4fadedb202dc3f558d039)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 12:38:38 AM
I love how Ramsay destroyed House Bolton.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 01, 2016, 11:32:24 PM
I expect the killing of papa Bolton will unleash all kinds of unpleasant repercussions.

Always a bummer when the parental advisory doesn't mention nudity.

Don't forget he also killed Fat Walda and, assuming Ramsay's legitimisation is revoked, the little lord of Winterfell. I am not sure if inheritance passes through female line in the North, but this at least gives some claim to some Frey somewhere. And while Walder may not care for any of his children and grandchildren, he does care deeply to any dishonor to his house. Ramsay is toast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2016, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2016, 09:07:45 PM
I'm not sure the show isn't making the same mistake with Roose that they made with Tywin; those competent scheming characters are scarce as hen's teeth and they can drive the show.  Killing them without need is wasteful.

I don't think there's any shortage. Olenna, Ellaria, Petyr, Varys, Tyrion, Walder Frey... And it's very easy for this show to introduce new characters when needed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 01:04:35 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2016, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2016, 09:07:45 PM
I'm not sure the show isn't making the same mistake with Roose that they made with Tywin; those competent scheming characters are scarce as hen's teeth and they can drive the show.  Killing them without need is wasteful.

I don't think there's any shortage. Olenna, Ellaria, Petyr, Varys, Tyrion, Walder Frey... And it's very easy for this show to introduce new characters when needed.

I wouldn't count Ellaria among "competent schemers". She is more of a Ramsay's school of intrigue. Tywin would have never murdered his lord and relative with his own hands, with many eye witnesses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 01:07:31 AM
I guess Cersei's attitude towards Tomman mimics that of many show's fans towards their favourite characters - "I love you but you probably are gonna killed off so I will pretend I don't care". :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2016, 01:30:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 01:04:35 AM
I wouldn't count Ellaria among "competent schemers". She is more of a Ramsay's school of intrigue. Tywin would have never murdered his lord and relative with his own hands, with many eye witnesses.

Her scheme looks to have gone off without a hitch. And the people of Dorne love her and the sand snakes. Ramsay looks more vulnerable and his betrayal looks more opportunistic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 01:33:17 AM
This joke clearly requires more work but I wonder if there are more parallels between Greyjoys and the Kardashian clan. I mean Euron is clearly Kanye and Theon Catlyn.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 02, 2016, 01:35:21 AM
By now every character has been dead at least once, right? "GRRM did not care anymore. Life and death, the same!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 02, 2016, 01:43:00 AM
Did anyone else think it was Roose who had stabbed the Ramsay?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2016, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2016, 01:30:05 AM
Her scheme looks to have gone off without a hitch. And the people of Dorne love her and the sand snakes. Ramsay looks more vulnerable and his betrayal looks more opportunistic.

One important vulnerability is that his most important supporters are the Karstarks, who are Starks by blood, and who should, if they haven't already, realize that Rob acted correctly.

On another note, we didn't actually see Stannis die, did we?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 01:58:48 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2016, 01:43:00 AM
Did anyone else think it was Roose who had stabbed the Ramsay?

Yeah I did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2016, 02:00:36 AM
It was hard to tell as you were watching it. I only knew it was Roose being stabbed because I'd already seen grumbler's comment.  :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 05:08:27 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2016, 01:43:00 AM
Did anyone else think it was Roose who had stabbed the Ramsay?

Yep.  That scene was well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 05:12:00 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2016, 01:30:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 01:04:35 AM
I wouldn't count Ellaria among "competent schemers". She is more of a Ramsay's school of intrigue. Tywin would have never murdered his lord and relative with his own hands, with many eye witnesses.

Her scheme looks to have gone off without a hitch. And the people of Dorne love her and the sand snakes. Ramsay looks more vulnerable and his betrayal looks more opportunistic.

Her scheme is crazy by objective standards.  There is no precedent for her or any of the sand Snakes to take over Dorne in the ethos of either Dorne or Westeros.  There's going to be (in any rational world) an heir to Doran somewhere.  All she did by killing Doran was buy some lifespan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2016, 05:16:05 AM
That heir might be one of Oberyn's daughters who were in on the plot. The show hasn't gone into much detail about Dorne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 07:14:48 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2016, 05:16:05 AM
That heir might be one of Oberyn's daughters who were in on the plot. The show hasn't gone into much detail about Dorne.

They aren't legitimate, therefor cannot inherit (even if regicide didn't disqualify them).  there have to be cousins of some degree still alive (the Sand Snakes couldn't kill all of them without a conspiracy too big to keep secret).

And what makes as little sense as the evaporating dogs in the Sansa rescue scene is that all of Doran's guards could have been suborned without a single one of them ratting the scheme out to Hotah.  The Martells have, after all, been the reigning dynasty for a thousand years, and surely at least one guardsman would think such a lineage worth preserving, even if his own oaths to the dynasty were somehow made null and void.

If the writers were wise, they'd have an earthquake drop Dorne into the ocean at the start of the next episode.  It is pretty clear that thinking about Dorne makes any writer (including Martin) stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 08:58:01 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2016, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 02, 2016, 01:30:05 AM
Her scheme looks to have gone off without a hitch. And the people of Dorne love her and the sand snakes. Ramsay looks more vulnerable and his betrayal looks more opportunistic.

One important vulnerability is that his most important supporters are the Karstarks, who are Starks by blood, and who should, if they haven't already, realize that Rob acted correctly.

On another note, we didn't actually see Stannis die, did we?

Wasn't there a Karstark in the last episode explaining why he still hates Rob?  Something about Rickard Karstark being separated from his head....

The Karstarks are never going to think that was a good decision.  There is a chance however that another Stark can rally them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 02, 2016, 11:55:51 AM
Well. Lots of interesting bits in that episode.

*First Bran flashback! Yeah!
And they say its Ned right off. I thought they'd play with us on that a bit, show us these kids and not say who they are, only revealing it later. I guess 'the life and death of lyanna' will be a running thread this series.

*Hodor talks!?!?!? WHAT!!?!?!? I always thought he was a born simpleton. Yet there he is at quite an advanced age and fairly normal. I wonder why he now no longer talks.
Theory: Bran does something that messes with his brain in the past. A sort of pre-destination thing.

*Iron Islands. When I saw them on the credits I thought I was seeing things. Had guessed they'd totally cut all that.

*A common theory that I've never really got into but after this episode am on the side of believing- Tyrion the secret Targaryian.

*Ramsey- well shit, didn't see that one coming. Obviously he'd try to kill the baby at some point but to just outright stab dad like that...blimey.
The Karstark is obviously on his side too- or else why wouldn't he then stab Ramsay. A baby Lord Bolton is good for business.
Unless....they realise Ramsay is a disaster area so they're pretending to back him to make it easier to rebel.

*Have to say I was expecting Mel's magic to fail. For some reason just today I was coming around to thinking a little that maybe it would be a funeral pyre that would bring Jon back in some kind of Azor Ahai/Targaryan thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 12:25:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 08:58:01 AM
Wasn't there a Karstark in the last episode explaining why he still hates Rob?  Something about Rickard Karstark being separated from his head....

The Karstarks are never going to think that was a good decision.  There is a chance however that another Stark can rally them.

I think that any Karstak other than Harald will recognize the justice of Robb's actions.  after all, they are feudal lords themselves, and will want to preserve their power to punish treason by their vassals.

Harald probably recognizes the justice of Robb's actions as well, but has to claim that he doesn't because that claim suits his personal ambitions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 12:40:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 12:25:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 08:58:01 AM
Wasn't there a Karstark in the last episode explaining why he still hates Rob?  Something about Rickard Karstark being separated from his head....

The Karstarks are never going to think that was a good decision.  There is a chance however that another Stark can rally them.

I think that any Karstak other than Harald will recognize the justice of Robb's actions.  after all, they are feudal lords themselves, and will want to preserve their power to punish treason by their vassals.

Harald probably recognizes the justice of Robb's actions as well, but has to claim that he doesn't because that claim suits his personal ambitions.

Ok, but based on what we actually know, rather than what you think, that is a stretch.  In any event, Sansa holds no blame for what Rob did.  It would be an easy thing for the Karstarks to follow her without forgiving Rob.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 02, 2016, 01:12:45 PM
HYPE

Best teaser I have seen in a while.

Episode 3:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y685gVGRQ98
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 02:00:21 PM
[spoiler]Wow, that's the fight at the Tower of Joy at the end of the teaser. We might finally learn that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 02, 2016, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2016, 01:43:00 AM
Did anyone else think it was Roose who had stabbed the Ramsay?

I think they filmed it that way, yeah
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 02:24:48 PM
I would have preferred Roose to stab Ramsey. I liked Roose better as a character. He had more depth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 02:28:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 12:40:11 PM
Ok, but based on what we actually know, rather than what you think, that is a stretch.  In any event, Sansa holds no blame for what Rob did.  It would be an easy thing for the Karstarks to follow her without forgiving Rob.

based on what we know of Westerosi society and its feudal equivelents, rather than your guess that the "Karstarks are never going to think that was a good decision," I think it more reasonable that the Karstark heirs will recognize the justice of Robb's position than that they will insist on the right of vassals to betray their lords. 

One Karstark is adamantly against the Starks, but that's all we know.

And, of course, if Robb as the head of his house created an offense against House Karstark, then Sansa inherits that offense and the obligation for restitution.  That's the way feudal societies work.  Your assertion that Robb's actions have no bearing on Sansa and that the Karstarks would find it easy to follow her without every resolving the stain on their honor (if that were really how they saw it) seems unfounded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 02:24:48 PM
I would have preferred Roose to stab Ramsey. I liked Roose better as a character. He had more depth.

Agreed.  Roose was, in many ways, the scarier character of the two.  You just know Ramsey is going to fuck it all up (starting with the brutal way he killed Walder Frey's grand-daughter and great-grandson).

I briefly (while still thinking this was Roose killing Ramsey) admired the writers for going away from the easy route of satisfying everyone's bloodlust for Ramsey by giving him a brutal death; dying like a mad dog being put down as a matter of routine would have been an even better end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 02:39:31 PM
Not sure if we can make any deductions from how feudal societies work for Westeros. During the last generation at least, we have seen a massive rebellion that ended with the legitimate king murdered, his family exiled. We have then seen a massive rebellion once the next king was dead, with lots of high and low lords not being loyal to their overlord among them the youngest brother of the king. After things turned sour for the various insurgents, we saw more betrayal, e.g. Red Wedding. Even in the Nights Watch or the Kings Guard we see betrayal.
In general the right of conquest or might makes right seems to be fairly accepted in Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 02:28:27 PM
And, of course, if Robb as the head of his house created an offense against House Karstark, then Sansa inherits that offense and the obligation for restitution.  That's the way feudal societies work.  Your assertion that Robb's actions have no bearing on Sansa and that the Karstarks would find it easy to follow her without every resolving the stain on their honor (if that were really how they saw it) seems unfounded.

That makes no sense.  Sansa "inherits the offense"?  Maybe in the world you have created for yourself where Rob is forgiven but not one that is consistent with what has occurred thus far in either the Books or the Show.  How could Sansa possibly held responsible for a misdeed she was powerless to influence.  It is far more probable that the Karstarks look upon Sansa as a worthy heir of House Stark.  A direct descendant of the beloved Ned and without the taint of the hated Rob.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 02:28:27 PM
And, of course, if Robb as the head of his house created an offense against House Karstark, then Sansa inherits that offense and the obligation for restitution.  That's the way feudal societies work.  Your assertion that Robb's actions have no bearing on Sansa and that the Karstarks would find it easy to follow her without every resolving the stain on their honor (if that were really how they saw it) seems unfounded.

That makes no sense.  Sansa "inherits the offense"?  Maybe in the world you have created for yourself where Rob is forgiven but not one that is consistent with the what has occurred thus far in either the Books or the Show.  How could Sansa possibly held responsible for a misdeed she was powerless to influence.  It is far more probable that the Karstarks look upon Sansa as a worthy heir of House Stark.  A direct descendant of the beloved Ned and without the taint of the hated Rob.

As much as it pains me, I gotta agree with grumbler. There is a reason why blood feuds flourished in feudal societies - that wouldn't be the case without blood offences being shares by all members of a house. In Karstarks' eyes, Sansa shares as much blame for old Karstark''s death as Myrcella did for the death of Oberyn and Elia.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 02:39:31 PM
Not sure if we can make any deductions from how feudal societies work for Westeros. During the last generation at least, we have seen a massive rebellion that ended with the legitimate king murdered, his family exiled. We have then seen a massive rebellion once the next king was dead, with lots of high and low lords not being loyal to their overlord among them the youngest brother of the king. After things turned sour for the various insurgents, we saw more betrayal, e.g. Red Wedding. Even in the Nights Watch or the Kings Guard we see betrayal.
In general the right of conquest or might makes right seems to be fairly accepted in Westeros.

Sure.  And right of conquest existed in feudal times, as well (Henry Tudor claimed the throne as Henry VII by right of conquest, IIRC).  So did massive rebellions, lots of high and low lords not being loyal to their overlord, betrayal, and the rest.  Martin has said that the starting point for his work was the War of the Roses, which took place in late medieval England.

None of that has to do with my point, however.  My point was about how the surviving members of House Karstark would see Robb's execution of Rickon, and how they would view Sansa's inheritance of the title of House Stark.  Either a feudal lord has the right to execute vassals who commit treason against him, or they don't.  If they do, the Rickon's execution was legit, and the members of House Karstark (after they get over the initial shock and grief) will see it that way (because they, too, wish to have power over their vassals).   If they don't see execution of vassals for treason as a legitimate power of the lord, then they have  a grievance against House Stark, and they believe that Sansa inherited the responsibility for making them whole.  The one thing they cannot do is believe that Robb was acting as a private person when killing Rickon, which would allow them to blame him as a criminal who had nothing to do with Sansa's inheritance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 03:22:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 02:41:20 PM
That makes no sense.  Sansa "inherits the offense"?  Maybe in the world you have created for yourself where Rob is forgiven but not one that is consistent with what has occurred thus far in either the Books or the Show.  How could Sansa possibly held responsible for a misdeed she was powerless to influence.  It is far more probable that the Karstarks look upon Sansa as a worthy heir of House Stark.  A direct descendant of the beloved Ned and without the taint of the hated Rob.

This is even more tenuous speculation than your earlier assertions.  Why would House Karstark, contrary to all principals of inheritance we know of, believe that Sansa inherited from Ned when even Rickard acclaimed Robb as head of House Stark and King of the North?  They'd be disowning Rickard's own actions.

And you say that I am arguing from a "world have created for [my]self?"   :lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 03:31:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 02:28:27 PM
And, of course, if Robb as the head of his house created an offense against House Karstark, then Sansa inherits that offense and the obligation for restitution.  That's the way feudal societies work.  Your assertion that Robb's actions have no bearing on Sansa and that the Karstarks would find it easy to follow her without every resolving the stain on their honor (if that were really how they saw it) seems unfounded.

That makes no sense.  Sansa "inherits the offense"?  Maybe in the world you have created for yourself where Rob is forgiven but not one that is consistent with the what has occurred thus far in either the Books or the Show.  How could Sansa possibly held responsible for a misdeed she was powerless to influence.  It is far more probable that the Karstarks look upon Sansa as a worthy heir of House Stark.  A direct descendant of the beloved Ned and without the taint of the hated Rob.

As much as it pains me, I gotta agree with grumbler. There is a reason why blood feuds flourished in feudal societies - that wouldn't be the case without blood offences being shares by all members of a house. In Karstarks' eyes, Sansa shares as much blame for old Karstark''s death as Myrcella did for the death of Oberyn and Elia.

So if they are going to make Sansa responsible for Jon's actions, tell me why you agree with Grumbles' assertion that the Karstarks will forgive Jon.

Grumbler has wrapped himself into an inconsistency for the sake of making an absurd point - news at 11.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 05:05:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 03:31:43 PM
So if they are going to make Sansa responsible for Jon's actions, tell me why you agree with Grumbles' assertion that the Karstarks will forgive Jon.

Grumbler has wrapped himself into an inconsistency for the sake of making an absurd point - news at 11.

I have never said that I think the Karstarks will forgive Jon.  A little more reading comprehension and a little less making up things would go a long way towards keeping this discussion useful.  I won't ask you t stop the personal attacks, since I know that the ad hom is your defining "thing" in debate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 08:18:00 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2016, 01:43:00 AM
Did anyone else think it was Roose who had stabbed the Ramsay?

I wasn't sure at first either, but then not too surprised that Ramsay killed Roose. Perhaps Roose should have been a lot more careful in dealings with his mad dog bastard son, which is what I really was thinking after seeing Roose get killed. He should have seen that coming. Then after Ramsay fed the mother and child to the dogs, well, that shows the point Roose was making about Ramsay being too wild eyed. So far he's gotten away with his craziness, though now he'll be a lot more visible as head of House Bolton, but in this story line it's not necessarily the nasty or hated ones who lose out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 08:25:58 AM
Very cool to see Jon Snow alive. I can't wait to see how that all goes with him now, confronting his killers, and how the others regard him probably with some reverence. That includes the Widlings too.

I think Ramsay had some ideas of gaining an alliance, or some other dealings, with the Night's Watch? I thought he mentioned something about that when talking with his father, er, before the killing. Anyhow, I wouldn't think a meet up with the Watch won't go so well with Jon Snow alive and now a Wildling army in Snow's debt for giving them a home. Just that aspect of the Wildlings is likely to have an interesting story line to play out, with Sansa coming to Castle Black, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2016, 08:30:17 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 07:14:48 AM
And what makes as little sense as the evaporating dogs in the Sansa rescue scene is that all of Doran's guards could have been suborned without a single one of them ratting the scheme out to Hotah.  The Martells have, after all, been the reigning dynasty for a thousand years, and surely at least one guardsman would think such a lineage worth preserving, even if his own oaths to the dynasty were somehow made null and void.

If the writers were wise, they'd have an earthquake drop Dorne into the ocean at the start of the next episode.  It is pretty clear that thinking about Dorne makes any writer (including Martin) stupid.

I agree, the Dorne plotline doesn't seem too well thought out. But given the execution of the plot that was shown, I think one has to credit Ellaria as being at least "competent" in her scheming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2016, 08:32:01 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 08:25:58 AM
Very cool to see Jon Snow alive. I can't wait to see how that all goes with him now, confronting his killers, and how the others regard him probably with some reverence. That includes the Widlings too.

I think Ramsay had some ideas of gaining an alliance, or some other dealings, with the Night's Watch? I thought he mentioned something about that when talking with his father, er, before the killing. Anyhow, I wouldn't think a meet up with the Watch won't go so well with Jon Snow alive and now a Wildling army in Snow's debt for giving them a home. Just that aspect of the Wildlings is likely to have an interesting story line to play out, with Sansa coming to Castle Black, etc.

I wonder if Jon chooses to stay with the Watch considering his oath has been fulfilled by his death. He could lead an army against Winterfell, either on his own or Sansa's behalf.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 09:06:05 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 08:25:58 AM
(snip) I think Ramsay had some ideas of gaining an alliance, or some other dealings, with the Night's Watch? I thought he mentioned something about that when talking with his father, er, before the killing. (snip)

Ramsey proposed to raid the Black castle and kill all of the Night's Watch, so as to make sure Jon won't interfere with the Boltons' schemes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 03, 2016, 09:06:19 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 02:24:48 PM
I would have preferred Roose to stab Ramsey. I liked Roose better as a character. He had more depth.

Yes a much more interesting character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 09:57:00 AM
If Roose stabbed Ramsay there would be no "dingo ate my baby" moment, though.  :homestar:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 10:07:51 AM
I also kinda love that Euron Greyjoy hosted Eurovision two years ago.  :cool:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 11:07:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 09:57:00 AM
If Roose stabbed Ramsay there would be no "dingo ate my baby" moment, though.  :homestar:

And there would be no need for such a moment, so a wash. :homestar:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:10:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 05:05:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 03:31:43 PM
So if they are going to make Sansa responsible for Jon's actions, tell me why you agree with Grumbles' assertion that the Karstarks will forgive Jon.

Grumbler has wrapped himself into an inconsistency for the sake of making an absurd point - news at 11.

I have never said that I think the Karstarks will forgive Jon.  A little more reading comprehension and a little less making up things would go a long way towards keeping this discussion useful.  I won't ask you t stop the personal attacks, since I know that the ad hom is your defining "thing" in debate.

:lol:

QuoteI think that any Karstak other than Harald will recognize the justice of Robb's actions.

You are the King of the backpedal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:10:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 05:05:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2016, 03:31:43 PM
So if they are going to make Sansa responsible for Jon's actions, tell me why you agree with Grumbles' assertion that the Karstarks will forgive Jon.

Grumbler has wrapped himself into an inconsistency for the sake of making an absurd point - news at 11.

I have never said that I think the Karstarks will forgive Jon.  A little more reading comprehension and a little less making up things would go a long way towards keeping this discussion useful.  I won't ask you t stop the personal attacks, since I know that the ad hom is your defining "thing" in debate.

:lol:

QuoteI think that any Karstak other than Harald will recognize the justice of Robb's actions.

You are the King of the backpedal.
:lmfao:  So now you are claiming that, when I wrote "recognize the justice of," you couldn't understand that in any way other than as "forgive," and when I wrote "Robb" you couldn't understand that in any other than as "Jon?"

You really need to take some remedial reading lessons. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:26:20 AM
Not going down the rabbit hole Grumbles.  If you want to argue that there is a significant difference between the two positions now that you clearly understand the inconsistency then fine. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 11:32:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:26:20 AM
Not going down the rabbit hole Grumbles.  If you want to argue that there is a significant difference between the two positions now that you clearly understand the inconsistency then fine.

I am happy with my position and am comfortable that the pothers here understand it.  If you are happy with yours, fine.  Just stop trying to argue against my position merely to be oppositional.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 11:32:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:26:20 AM
Not going down the rabbit hole Grumbles.  If you want to argue that there is a significant difference between the two positions now that you clearly understand the inconsistency then fine.

I am happy with my position and am comfortable that the pothers here understand it.  If you are happy with yours, fine.  Just stop trying to argue against my position merely to be oppositional.

:lol:

oh, wait.  You were saying that ironically right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 01:28:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
:lol:

oh, wait.  You were saying that ironically right?

:lol:  I think everyone here can tell opposition for the sake of opposition from counter-argument.  The former resembles your arguments: mere bald assertion.  The latter resemble mine:  arguments made based on evidence and analysis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2016, 08:32:01 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 08:25:58 AM
Very cool to see Jon Snow alive. I can't wait to see how that all goes with him now, confronting his killers, and how the others regard him probably with some reverence. That includes the Widlings too.

I think Ramsay had some ideas of gaining an alliance, or some other dealings, with the Night's Watch? I thought he mentioned something about that when talking with his father, er, before the killing. Anyhow, I wouldn't think a meet up with the Watch won't go so well with Jon Snow alive and now a Wildling army in Snow's debt for giving them a home. Just that aspect of the Wildlings is likely to have an interesting story line to play out, with Sansa coming to Castle Black, etc.

I wonder if Jon chooses to stay with the Watch considering his oath has been fulfilled by his death. He could lead an army against Winterfell, either on his own or Sansa's behalf.

Well, surely there will be some battling between the Boltons and their allies vs Sansa and/or Jon Snow and their allies, however that shakes out among the northern lords. And I think the Wildlings will play some part in it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 02:13:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 09:06:05 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 03, 2016, 08:25:58 AM
(snip) I think Ramsay had some ideas of gaining an alliance, or some other dealings, with the Night's Watch? I thought he mentioned something about that when talking with his father, er, before the killing. (snip)

Ramsey proposed to raid the Black castle and kill all of the Night's Watch, so as to make sure Jon won't interfere with the Boltons' schemes.

Right, I remember now. And that kind of thinking goes along with Ramsay's mad dog approach to things, as his father pointed out. That would have alienated all the northern lords that the Boltons need.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

There was something going on with the Dire Wolf in that scene.  I think you are probably correct.  But Melisandre is going to get/take all the credit.  Setting up a confrontation between the God of Light and the Old Gods - or at least their followers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:20:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

There was something going on with the Dire Wolf in that scene.  I think you are probably correct.  But Melisandre is going to get/take all the credit.  Setting up a confrontation between the God of Light and the Old Gods - or at least their followers?

Well, before that happens, she'll get instructions from Daddy Bloodraven.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

There was something going on with the Dire Wolf in that scene.  I think you are probably correct.  But Melisandre is going to get/take all the credit.  Setting up a confrontation between the God of Light and the Old Gods - or at least their followers?

Considering Bran is busy beyond the wall, I think it more likely Jon was inhabiting the wolf.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

There was something going on with the Dire Wolf in that scene.  I think you are probably correct.  But Melisandre is going to get/take all the credit.  Setting up a confrontation between the God of Light and the Old Gods - or at least their followers?

Considering Bran is busy beyond the wall, I think it more likely Jon was inhabiting the wolf.

Jon is stuck in the wolf for good. Remember, "a second life worthy of a king."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
Considering Bran is busy beyond the wall, I think it more likely Jon was inhabiting the wolf.

That's my guess as well, and I think that it is going to be the explanation for why Jon doesn't suffer the memory and personality loss that Dondarrion did.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:49:19 PM
I think that if Jon had super Vegan warg powers they would have foreshadowed it at some point.

The pooch stirring I just interpreted as heightened sensitivity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 02:50:16 PM
I agree with Yi.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:49:19 PM
I think that if Jon had super Vegan warg powers they would have foreshadowed it at some point.

At least in the books, all the Stark children are powerful wargs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:49:19 PM
I think that if Jon had super Vegan warg powers they would have foreshadowed it at some point.

At least in the books, all the Stark children are powerful wargs.

Jon is a Targ.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:52:06 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
At least in the books, all the Stark children are powerful wargs.

Eh?  I read the books and I don't remember that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 03, 2016, 02:52:42 PM
And a Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 03, 2016, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:49:19 PM
I think that if Jon had super Vegan warg powers they would have foreshadowed it at some point.

At least in the books, all the Stark children are powerful wargs.

Jon is a Targ.

While most Targs are remarkably inbred, Jon isn't :P

Hence the lack of silver hair.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Anyways, on the show none of the Starks other than Brann give any indication of being wargs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 03, 2016, 02:56:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:52:06 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
At least in the books, all the Stark children are powerful wargs.

Eh?  I read the books and I don't remember that.
Arya "wargs" into her dire wolf in her dreams. But it's different from Bran or the wildlings that warg while being awake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Anyways, on the show none of the Starks other than Brann give any indication of being wargs.

Arya wargs Nymeria, and her cat.
Robb clearly wargs Grey Wind.
Jon wargs Ghost.
Sansa doesn't really show any warging ability, likely because Lady is dead.

IIRC GRRM Himself confirmed that they are all wargs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 03:17:49 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

There was something going on with the Dire Wolf in that scene.  I think you are probably correct.  But Melisandre is going to get/take all the credit.  Setting up a confrontation between the God of Light and the Old Gods - or at least their followers?

Considering Bran is busy beyond the wall, I think it more likely Jon was inhabiting the wolf.

Yeah, as I said a before that episode.  That is what I think was happening.  We don't know the limits of the power of the three eyed crow though.  I am not sure there is much of a geographical limitation - especially at a location that is so close.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 03, 2016, 04:36:22 PM
Don't forget bran can travel in time as well as space. Not impossible it could be a future bran.
Though I doubt it.
Could be something with mels magic combining with the wolf warging. ... but the way I saw it was just that the wolf detected Jon had come back to life and moved to investigate
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 04:49:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 02:49:19 PM
I think that if Jon had super Vegan warg powers they would have foreshadowed it at some point.

The pooch stirring I just interpreted as heightened sensitivity.

I'm not sure what you mean.  In the books, all the Stark children have warg abilities, especially with their dire wolves.  I think that there has been a lot of foreshadowing of warging into animals and surviving death, and I can't think of a reason they would spend screen time on that if it weren't going to be used (e.g. to have Jon's personality survive death intact).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 03, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 03:17:51 PM
  Martin has said that the starting point for his work was the War of the Roses, which took place in late medieval England..

Which is what the made the narrative interesting and stand out from the usual.

But both books and show have increasingly increased emphasis on the fantasy aspect (dragons, magic, faceless men, warging, dead raising, snow zombies, etc) while - as you point out - eliminating the more interesting savvy and brutally realist political operators.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:08:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2016, 08:30:17 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 02, 2016, 07:14:48 AM
And what makes as little sense as the evaporating dogs in the Sansa rescue scene is that all of Doran's guards could have been suborned without a single one of them ratting the scheme out to Hotah.  The Martells have, after all, been the reigning dynasty for a thousand years, and surely at least one guardsman would think such a lineage worth preserving, even if his own oaths to the dynasty were somehow made null and void.

If the writers were wise, they'd have an earthquake drop Dorne into the ocean at the start of the next episode.  It is pretty clear that thinking about Dorne makes any writer (including Martin) stupid.

I agree, the Dorne plotline doesn't seem too well thought out. But given the execution of the plot that was shown, I think one has to credit Ellaria as being at least "competent" in her scheming.

What i don't get from the show, and a lesser extent from the books, is what is the *point* of the Dorne storyline? It all seems extraneous to the overall primary plotlines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

How the fuck would Bran warg a dead body?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 03, 2016, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

How the fuck would Bran warg a dead body?
:secret: Hamilcar has been trolling this thread from the time he started posting.  It's been pretty good trolling so far, nice and subtle, but still absurd.  I'm enjoying it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 03, 2016, 08:37:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:08:17 PMWhat i don't get from the show, and a lesser extent from the books, is what is the *point* of the Dorne storyline? It all seems extraneous to the overall primary plotlines.

book and show: massive reinforcements right when needed
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 08:45:09 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 03, 2016, 08:37:50 PM
book and show: massive reinforcements right when needed

Yeah, the point of Dorne is the same as the point of the Vale, or the Riverlands, or Marjoryland (forget what it's called), or any other land that doesn't have a claimant to the throne. Or the Iron Islands for that matter.  They can either help a claimant, fuck a claimant, or sit out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2016, 08:51:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 08:45:09 PM
Yeah, the point of Dorne is the same as the point of the Vale, or the Riverlands, or Marjoryland (forget what it's called), or any other land that doesn't have a claimant to the throne. Or the Iron Islands for that matter.  They can either help a claimant, fuck a claimant, or sit out.

They haven't done any of that so far. I suppose they'd be most likely to assist a Targ (Dany) invasion, but there's been way more Dorne stuff than necessary to establish that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 08:55:09 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 03, 2016, 08:51:40 PM
They haven't done any of that so far. I suppose they'd be most likely to assist a Targ (Dany) invasion, but there's been way more Dorne stuff than necessary to establish that.

What has The Vale done?  Even less.  At least Dorne offed a Lannister, and a Lannister henchman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 03, 2016, 10:25:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2016, 08:55:09 PM
What has The Vale done?  Even less.  At least Dorne offed a Lannister, and a Lannister henchman.

Both times the Vale has been featured prominently, there are central characters passing through. Then it falls back into obscurity. It hasn't really had a plot of its own.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 12:43:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

How the fuck would Bran warg a dead body?

The Others do exactly that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 04, 2016, 12:44:22 AM
No, see, that's magical re-animation.  Completely different from magical animation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 01:03:21 AM
Gay of Thrones review of episode 2 is up:

http://www.towleroad.com/2016/05/gay-of-thrones-3/

His take on the Highsparrow and Jaime scene was the best part imo. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 04, 2016, 01:44:14 AM
This is the most successful thread Tyr has ever made.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2016, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 12:43:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

How the fuck would Bran warg a dead body?

The Others do exactly that.

So you think Bran is an Other and Jon is going to come back as a largely mindless zombie?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 11:11:09 AM
I think it's a wacky theory. I do think Jon will be somewhat "diminished" from his experience, but it will still be him. So if anything it will be more like Lady Stoneheart thing, where he has a "driving goal" and starts to forget about other aspects of his life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 04, 2016, 11:41:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 11:11:09 AM
I think it's a wacky theory. I do think Jon will be somewhat "diminished" from his experience, but it will still be him. So if anything it will be more like Lady Stoneheart thing, where he has a "driving goal" and starts to forget about other aspects of his life.

I can understand why people think he is going to be diminished based on the revival stuff we have seen so far, but I can't think of a story reason for this to be true, and bringing back the character as "jon Snow, only not Jon Snow" seems like a recipe for turning off the fans and complicating the writers' lives.  If Jon Snow is only physically back, then all of the character development done for his character is now wasted, because no one knows what is still valid and what is now invalid.

It will be a lot easier on everyone to just have him come back to life, same as before, but no longer in the Night's Watch.  The warg into Ghost can explain why his resurrection is different from the others, and the show can move on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 04, 2016, 11:49:12 AM
Yup, agree with grumbler.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 11:52:30 AM
Yeah I get your point. But maybe they will add some layer of weirdness to him - like erratic behaviour, outbursts or flashbacks perhaps. I think it would be too easy if he just got back with no price - especially as GRRM has always been saying in his interviews that he does not believe in a "scott free" resurrection in his stories.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 04, 2016, 11:54:32 AM
Its not his story anymore. He sold it and his soul to HBO. And they want rippling muscles pretty face Jon Snow. Not something that will repulse fans.

What they really want is for people to hate Ramsay so much that Jon's return gives people hope he can be stopped. Ramsay can kill all the people he wants but he will fall to Jon's Longclaw.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 04, 2016, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 04, 2016, 01:44:14 AM
This is the most successful thread Tyr has ever made.
The off topic topic :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 04, 2016, 01:08:30 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 04, 2016, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 04, 2016, 01:44:14 AM
This is the most successful thread Tyr has ever made.
The off topic topic :contract:

Korea started this one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 04, 2016, 01:17:03 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 04, 2016, 01:08:30 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 04, 2016, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 04, 2016, 01:44:14 AM
This is the most successful thread Tyr has ever made.
The off topic topic :contract:

Korea started this one.
I started the first, ergo all continuations thereof :p
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 04:47:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2016, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 12:43:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

How the fuck would Bran warg a dead body?

The Others do exactly that.

So you think Bran is an Other and Jon is going to come back as a largely mindless zombie?

I'm not sure that Bran is an Other (yet), but clearly the power to reanimate and control corpses is entirely possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 04, 2016, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 04:47:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2016, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 12:43:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM
I maintain that Jon Snow's resurrection was a misdirection. Melisandre didn't do anything. Bran is warging him.

How the fuck would Bran warg a dead body?

The Others do exactly that.

So you think Bran is an Other and Jon is going to come back as a largely mindless zombie?

I'm not sure that Bran is an Other (yet), but clearly the power to reanimate and control corpses is entirely possible.

...in a way that would not be considered, by anyone, to be "Jon" at all, and has no real similarity to what wargs do with living animals that is clearly NOT re-animating a dead corpse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 05:38:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2016, 05:37:24 PM
...in a way that would not be considered, by anyone, to be "Jon" at all, and has no real similarity to what wargs do with living animals that is clearly NOT re-animating a dead corpse.

I am 80% sure the Others warg corpses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 04, 2016, 06:02:50 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 05:38:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 04, 2016, 05:37:24 PM
...in a way that would not be considered, by anyone, to be "Jon" at all, and has no real similarity to what wargs do with living animals that is clearly NOT re-animating a dead corpse.

I am 80% sure the Others warg corpses.
:lol:  This is great.  You almost sound like this is what you really think, and the precision of the estimate is a nice touch.

You know, of course, that what the Others do is utterly unlike warging, since the person doing the warging is unconscious in their original body while they warg the animal body.  But I think the trolling is first-class.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 06:11:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 04, 2016, 06:02:50 PM
:lol:  This is great.  You almost sound like this is what you really think, and the precision of the estimate is a nice touch.

You know, of course, that what the Others do is utterly unlike warging, since the person doing the warging is unconscious in their original body while they warg the animal body.  But I think the trolling is first-class.

I've practiced my ASOIAF trolling at work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 04, 2016, 06:46:55 PM
King of Tinfoil Preston Jacobs kinda agrees with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6U1dCoY2vw
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 08, 2016, 08:53:58 PM
The Starks have no luck at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 08, 2016, 09:24:31 PM
Anyway, I wasn't at all happy to have the Umber dude show up at Winterfell with Rickon.  It seems too pat that all of the sons of the Stark bannerman turn out to be faithless gits eager to sign up with Rmsey Bolton.  I'm hoping that this is an Umber ruse of some sort, those I don't see how that's possible unless the wolf's head isn't Shaggydog.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 08, 2016, 09:38:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 08, 2016, 09:24:31 PM
Anyway, I wasn't at all happy to have the Umber dude show up at Winterfell with Rickon.  It seems too pat that all of the sons of the Stark bannerman turn out to be faithless gits eager to sign up with Rmsey Bolton.  I'm hoping that this is an Umber ruse of some sort, those I don't see how that's possible unless the wolf's head isn't Shaggydog.
I was thinking Rouse too, but then I remembered the flayed body in the Bolton battle scene which I guess now is osha.

The Umber excuse seems plausible enough. a stark bastard let the wildlings in the north so he's pissed at the starks and also know doesn't have the resources to rebel against the bastard and protect his lands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 08, 2016, 09:51:01 PM
There are still no torrents available anywhere I have access to.  <_<



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2016, 10:09:18 PM
I really hope the Umber thing with Rickon is a ruse, else it seems like pretty shoddy writing to just have the Smalljohn (presumably who that is) betray the Starks because of something that is out of the Stark's hands.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 10:18:03 PM
Is Greatjon still in jail somewhere and did they kill him on the show?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 10:22:44 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 10:18:03 PM
Is Greatjon still in jail somewhere and did they kill him on the show?

Still held by the Walders I thought.  I might be confusing the book and the show though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 10:26:29 PM
"The Walders."  he he  I mean the Freys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 08, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
I did not think Jon Snow could reach a new level of emo.  A post-death "my friends killed me" kind of emo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:26:40 PM
Just watched.

Gotta believe the gift of Rickon and Eyebrow girl is a trick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 08, 2016, 11:30:04 PM
I'm looking forward to Jon leading the wildlings against Ramsay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:31:45 PM
Also liked the thinking behind Jon's resignation.  Oath is only binding until death. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 08, 2016, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:31:45 PM
Also liked the thinking behind Jon's resignation.  Oath is only binding until death. :contract:

I've assumed all along that was the story telling reason for Jon being killed - a means of getting him out of his oath to the watch.


The Tower of Joy tease was suitably frustrating... :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 08, 2016, 11:39:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 08, 2016, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:31:45 PM
Also liked the thinking behind Jon's resignation.  Oath is only binding until death. :contract:

I've assumed all along that was the story telling reason for Jon being killed - a means of getting him out of his oath to the watch.


The Tower of Joy tease was suitably frustrating... :P

Indeed.  All the scenes this episode were a tease; inconclusive or just conversation.  Very dissatisfied.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 08, 2016, 11:39:59 PM
Finally found a source.  Very good episode.  And how Bran & Rickon have grown! :perv:

I guess we won't get the final part of the 'Tower of Joy' until later in the season.




G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2016, 11:44:05 PM
Rickon's actor is 14, dude.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:45:04 PM
Too old, too fat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 11:49:11 PM
As a trick against Ramsay it seems pretty risky. There is no telling what he'd do to Rickon.

Verdict: Umber is sincere in his intentions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 11:49:26 PM
Rickon :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 08, 2016, 11:50:28 PM
How can it be a trick? He hands him over to a psycho kinslayer...

I guess it is a way to tie loose plotlines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2016, 11:51:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 08, 2016, 11:50:28 PM
How can it be a trick? He hands him over to a psycho kinslayer...

I guess it is a way to tie loose plotlines.

I'm worried you're correct and that's it's just sloppy writing.  Yet again, Ramsay 'wins' despite doing nothing to earn it.

I really hope it's a trick, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:54:39 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 08, 2016, 11:50:28 PM
How can it be a trick? He hands him over to a psycho kinslayer...

I guess it is a way to tie loose plotlines.

Win over his confidence, then lure him into a place he can be attacked.  Such as on a battlefield facing wildlings with Umbers at his back.

Or eyebrow chick is the poisoned dagger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 11:55:30 PM
They have thrown Ramsay every single bone he could ask for in this series....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 08, 2016, 11:56:45 PM
They've built up Sansa for a while now. If Rickon lives and becomes Lord of Winterfell, that would not fit with the TV narrative very well. So he has to die for Sansa to become Lady of Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 11:55:30 PM
They have thrown Ramsay every single bone he could ask for in this series....

Not true.  Sansa and Theon escaped.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:01:38 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 08, 2016, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 08, 2016, 11:55:30 PM
They have thrown Ramsay every single bone he could ask for in this series....

Not true.  Sansa and Theon escaped.

and now he has Rickon. Can he have a single permanent setback?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 09, 2016, 12:07:24 AM
Odds are Ramsay dies at the end of the season.  I just don't see the death of Rickon having any real dramatic weight, aside from "kill another good guy".  Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 09, 2016, 12:12:41 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 08, 2016, 11:56:45 PM
They've built up Sansa for a while now. If Rickon lives and becomes Lord of Winterfell, that would not fit with the TV narrative very well. So he has to die for Sansa to become Lady of Winterfell.

Or Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell claiming legitimacy from King Stannis.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:13:50 AM
If Ramsay dies, who would replace him as villain?

They'd need to advance another plotline...Dorne? White Walkers ?

I think walkers breaching the wall and overwhelming the Watch might do the trick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 09, 2016, 12:25:21 AM
The Mountain
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 09, 2016, 12:42:30 AM
Tower of Joy fight scene.  Was it realistic?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.vanityfair.com%2Fphotos%2F56f87de7d944d6953bb81dbd%2Fmaster%2Fw_690%2Cc_limit%2Ftoj-swords.gif&hash=0a3d24121a93ccf8b542274293f564dc84632af6)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 09, 2016, 12:44:52 AM
Fight scenes will always be problematic because you don't fence with a man in armor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:52:55 AM
Did I see it wrong or did he get stabbed through his armor?

The fight scene was cool, but maybe a bit on the cheesy side.  Just a bit.

The fights in GoT thus far I think have mostly had a certain air of authenticity...they don't go too overboard so I'll give them this one for free.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 09, 2016, 12:54:59 AM
No idea if realistic, but Arthur Dayne with two swords looked cool. Didn't make much sense as he was known for his greatsword.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:59:59 AM
Anyone know who the other guy was supposed to be? Ser Stabbed in the Throat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 09, 2016, 01:38:28 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:59:59 AM
Anyone know who the other guy was supposed to be? Ser Stabbed in the Throat.
in the book there were three kings guards. Dayne, the commander, and someone else. So either they merged two guys into one or there someone else in the tower. So, to answer your question, no idea : P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2016, 04:56:44 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 08, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
I did not think Jon Snow could reach a new level of emo.  A post-death "my friends killed me" kind of emo.

Say what?  All of those who killed him, save Ollie, had been his enemies since he arrived at Castle Black.  I think your emomometer is broken.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2016, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 09, 2016, 01:38:28 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:59:59 AM
Anyone know who the other guy was supposed to be? Ser Stabbed in the Throat.
in the book there were three kings guards. Dayne, the commander, and someone else. So either they merged two guys into one or there someone else in the tower. So, to answer your question, no idea : P

Something Whent was the third guy.  I don't know where you got the idea that they merged anyone; there were three Kingsguard in the battle shown on TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2016, 05:35:44 AM
Yeah, the fight scene was pretty Holly-lame.

Ser Arthur Dayne was kind of a douchebag, pretty boy, fancypants with his two swords that is just plain fucking stupid.

The show has managed to mostly resist such silliness, it was a bit disappointing someone apparently succumbed to the wanna-be Star Wars combat model.

Could you imagine how fast you would be completely exhausted trying to fight with two full sized longswords? They could have at least made him fight with a smaller off sword if they really wanted something different. That would have been slightly more believable...maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2016, 06:18:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2016, 05:35:44 AM
Yeah, the fight scene was pretty Holly-lame.

Ser Arthur Dayne was kind of a douchebag, pretty boy, fancypants with his two swords that is just plain fucking stupid.

The show has managed to mostly resist such silliness, it was a bit disappointing someone apparently succumbed to the wanna-be Star Wars combat model.

Could you imagine how fast you would be completely exhausted trying to fight with two full sized longswords? They could have at least made him fight with a smaller off sword if they really wanted something different. That would have been slightly more believable...maybe.

I agree that the two-sword thing was objectively silly.  What makes it worse, though, is that Dayne was famous for his longsword, Dawn, wielded only occasionally over the last thousand years, because only the worthiest of knights of House Dayne are allowed it.

I've argued before that the show's combat choreographers are boneheads.  This fight was more proof.

The fight was also proof that men who go into battle wearing only leather armor against men in metal armor are idiots.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 09, 2016, 06:35:28 AM
Oh, and i'll bitch about the lack of shields on the part of all but one of these fighters, too.  Left them with the armor, maybe?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 09, 2016, 10:32:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2016, 06:18:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 09, 2016, 05:35:44 AM
Yeah, the fight scene was pretty Holly-lame.

Ser Arthur Dayne was kind of a douchebag, pretty boy, fancypants with his two swords that is just plain fucking stupid.

The show has managed to mostly resist such silliness, it was a bit disappointing someone apparently succumbed to the wanna-be Star Wars combat model.

Could you imagine how fast you would be completely exhausted trying to fight with two full sized longswords? They could have at least made him fight with a smaller off sword if they really wanted something different. That would have been slightly more believable...maybe.

I agree that the two-sword thing was objectively silly.  What makes it worse, though, is that Dayne was famous for his longsword, Dawn, wielded only occasionally over the last thousand years, because only the worthiest of knights of House Dayne are allowed it.

I've argued before that the show's combat choreographers are boneheads.  This fight was more proof.

The fight was also proof that men who go into battle wearing only leather armor against men in metal armor are idiots.

The actor who was playing Ned looked kind of goofy in general. And his costume was incredibly bland, even boring. He was Lord Stark at the time, one of the pre-emiinent knights and Lords of the realm. Now, he is a Stark, so I don't expect to see him in gold plate, but he should probably look like an actual knight.

What is wrong with just field plate, long sword, and shield anyway? Why is that considered not interesting enough? I would think you could choreograph some pretty amazing fight scenes with that...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 09, 2016, 10:34:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 09, 2016, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 09, 2016, 01:38:28 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 12:59:59 AM
Anyone know who the other guy was supposed to be? Ser Stabbed in the Throat.
in the book there were three kings guards. Dayne, the commander, and someone else. So either they merged two guys into one or there someone else in the tower. So, to answer your question, no idea : P

Something Whent was the third guy.  I don't know where you got the idea that they merged anyone; there were three Kingsguard in the battle shown on TV.

:unsure:  No, there were only two Kingsguard there.  One got killed early, then it was Dayne fighting off the rest of Ned's men by himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 09, 2016, 10:35:03 AM
I think he fit the main qualification for the part, being instantly recognizable as a younger version of Sean Bean.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 09, 2016, 10:43:58 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 09, 2016, 10:35:03 AM
I think he fit the main qualification for the part, being instantly recognizable as a younger version of Sean Bean.

Yes, I was very pleased with the younger likeness of Sean Bean as Eddard Stark, even the facial expressions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 09, 2016, 11:36:31 AM
They can't even spell "sir" right, you can't expect them to be able to manage proper equipment as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2016, 01:18:13 PM
Took me 15 minutes on the internet, 1h15 over the phone, but finally, I managed to get a subscription to HBO, all for 2$/month less than my current bill.  :cool:

GoT is coming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 09, 2016, 02:24:00 PM
Well, Rickon shows up finally. Really not fond of the way they did it though, dead wolfie :(
Wonder if book Umbers will turn out to be cunts too.
Doubt this is all a cunning plot.

Annoying they changed the Tower of Joy to give only 2 guards. Unless one in still inside. Unless they made this change specifically to show its different to the books.

Starks in leather armour- meh. Its just costuming. It's like how helmets or even hats in the cold are so rare. Makes them look distinctive.
Kind of dissapointed in the battle though. Knew it would end with Reed stabbing the guy in the back, but thought there'd be some kind of magic involved.

Though Bran's shock at Ned being beaten then the backstab.... it does set us up very nicely for yet more revelations of history not being how we know it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2016, 04:39:33 PM
I don't recall Ned being dishonest in the books.  Rather honest to a fault.  He was even scrupulous about not lying about Snow - "he is of my blood" etc.

Is this a device created by the show or I am just not remembering that part in the books?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 09, 2016, 04:44:45 PM
True.
Though I guess it could just be part of the Jon lie. Though why?

Speaking of lying- bloodraven (why does me phone want to write a A for that?) In a tree for 1000 years?  Hmm....
Though interesting the plan isn't for bran to stay.  Maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 09, 2016, 05:46:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2016, 04:39:33 PM
I don't recall Ned being dishonest in the books.  Rather honest to a fault.  He was even scrupulous about not lying about Snow - "he is of my blood" etc.

Is this a device created by the show or I am just not remembering that part in the books?

IIRC, Bran said that he'd heard the story a thousand times, not that Ned had told him the story a thousand times. Ned probably wouldn't want to talk about it, but he'd sound like a hero in the version popular in Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 09, 2016, 05:48:01 PM
Ned is honorable to a fault, yes, but willing to sacrifice his personal honor to protect others.

Claiming Jon as a bastard, making a false confession to protect Sansa are too examples of that. He wouldn't do something dishonorable for personal gain though, I don't think so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 09, 2016, 05:53:00 PM
When I saw the scene I thought Ned had lied about it to protect the reputation of the back stabber.

Though on the other hand I don't really see how back stabbing is dishonorable while attacking 2 guys with 6 is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2016, 11:38:51 PM
Ok, Episode 1, I get where they're going with Dorne.

In the books, Dorne is there to provide support for the Targaryen retake of the Iron Throne, Daenerys or the other one.

Since that part was cut in the tv show, they obviously need something to stir up conflict with the Lannisters, to push Dorne into the fight on Daenerys' side.

Now, with Dorian Martel in power, he would have sacrificed the ladies to make peace with the Lannisters, until the right time, because he knows he can't fight them alone.
Obviously, the Sand Snakes believe they can do better, and Tommen will likely be pushed toward declaring war, since they killed his sister.

Eventually, Daenerys will find her way to Westeros, the North will be re-united under the Stark, the South will be a Targaryen-Martel alliance, girl power&all that, and they will squeeze the Lannisters in the center until the Tyrell switch camp, as the Lannister did in the previous civil war.

Now, is it well done?  No, not particularly.  Is it worst than in the books where the author sprang a rabbit out of his hat to find a male heir to the Targaryen family, previously unknown to all?  Nope.

I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt and want to see how it unfolds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 10, 2016, 12:56:34 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 09, 2016, 11:38:51 PM
Is it worst than in the books where the author sprang a rabbit out of his hat to find a male heir to the Targaryen family, previously unknown to all?  Nope

Jon Connington's Targaryen boy is as much a Targaryen as Jeyne Poole was a Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 10, 2016, 01:07:33 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 09, 2016, 11:38:51 PM
Now, with Oberyn Martel in power, he would have sacrificed the ladies to make peace with the Lannisters, until the right time, because he knows he can't fight them alone.
Obviously, the Sand Snakes believe they can do better, and Tommen will likely be pushed toward declaring war, since they killed his sister.

Oberyn seemed pretty keen on taking vengeance on the Lannisters before the Mountain tore his eyes out. :bleeding:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 10, 2016, 09:30:50 AM
ah, got them mixed up.  Dorian.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 10, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Did the valyrians make suits of armor out of valyrian steel?
I'm not clear on the technological level of the valyrian freehold. Did they use chainmail or plated armor? How about dragon skin? Would a dead dragon skin still be useful as leather armor?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 10, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
What do you call steel from valyria that isn't valyrian steel? :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 10, 2016, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
What do you call steel from valyria that isn't valyrian steel? :hmm:

Crap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2016, 05:58:23 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
What do you call steel from valyria that isn't valyrian steel? :hmm:

Non-Valyrian steel*



*Made in Valyria
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on May 10, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
What do you call steel from valyria that isn't valyrian steel? :hmm:

Oh please.
Don't waste my limited time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 10, 2016, 06:01:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 10, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
What do you call steel from valyria that isn't valyrian steel? :hmm:

Champagne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 10, 2016, 06:06:05 PM
All questions answered

Quote from: Siege on May 10, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Did the valyrians make suits of armor out of valyrian steel?

No they subcontracted to Foxconn

QuoteI'm not clear on the technological level of the valyrian freehold.

Level 6

QuoteDid they use chainmail or plated armor?

Yes, or other.

QuoteHow about dragon skin?

Regular hydration and moisturization is recommended.

QuoteWould a dead dragon skin still be useful as leather armor?

Only leather is useful as leather armor.  Things that are not leather are not useful as leather armor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 11, 2016, 12:22:24 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 10, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Did the valyrians make suits of armor out of valyrian steel?
I'm not clear on the technological level of the valyrian freehold. Did they use chainmail or plated armor? How about dragon skin? Would a dead dragon skin still be useful as leather armor?

1. No. The reason Valyrian steel weapons are good would not translate well to armor.
2. Valyrians were skilled in metal working and magics.
3. They used chain and plate and wooden/bone armor for their levies.
4. Dragonscale is only effective for dragons because their hides are thick. You'd have to wear a very thick layer of it to get protection and even then would not be as good as plate. A thin layer of dragonscale would be about as good as deerhide.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 11, 2016, 02:26:58 AM
So, an idea has been floating around that with 17 to 27 episodes to go in total, HBO is considering a spin-off, perhaps set during the time of Robert's rebellion. I am not sure though - it could taint the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 11, 2016, 03:55:13 AM
Isn't there a spinoff by GRRM himself? The Hedge Knight or so?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
BTW, who else thinks that the "little birdies" that seem to be defecting to Qyburn are doing so under orders from Varys?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2016, 02:26:58 AM
So, an idea has been floating around that with 17 to 27 episodes to go in total, HBO is considering a spin-off, perhaps set during the time of Robert's rebellion. I am not sure though - it could taint the series.

This was a suggestion from a fan.  I've seen nothing that would indicate that HBO is actually considering it.

I think making it would be a mistake.  Too many characters have a set appearance and sound with the readers, and the actors playing them couldn't plausibly play the same characters when 15 years younger.

A spinoff set in, say the Targaryan Conquest would work better from a casting POV, but who would want to see it?

Better to turn the talent loose to do a, say, 2-3 season TV adaptation of the Mote in God's Eye series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 11, 2016, 09:08:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:46:09 AM
Better to turn the talent loose to do a, say, 2-3 season TV adaptation of the Mote in God's Eye series.

Why would that need Game of Thrones actors or writers to do?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 09:19:06 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 11, 2016, 09:08:14 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:46:09 AM
Better to turn the talent loose to do a, say, 2-3 season TV adaptation of the Mote in God's Eye series.

Why would that need Game of Thrones actors or writers to do?

I give up.  Why?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 11, 2016, 09:26:02 AM
You were the one framing it as a question of one or the other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 10:39:24 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 11, 2016, 09:26:02 AM
You were the one framing it as a question of one or the other.

You misread.  If you go back and read what I wrote, I wasn't saying that there were only two choices.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 11, 2016, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
BTW, who else thinks that the "little birdies" that seem to be defecting to Qyburn are doing so under orders from Varys?
Would be in character for Varys.  He does say they never fail him.  and reporting about everyone badmouthing the queen is good for business, in Varys case.  It weakens the Lannister's hold on the palace.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 11, 2016, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
BTW, who else thinks that the "little birdies" that seem to be defecting to Qyburn are doing so under orders from Varys?

Spoiler:  https://m.westeros.org/index.php/Varys#A_Dance_with_Dragons
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 12, 2016, 12:15:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
BTW, who else thinks that the "little birdies" that seem to be defecting to Qyburn are doing so under orders from Varys?

Actually now that you mention that, I think either in this or in the previous episode, Varys does say explicitly something along the lines "I don't trust any men or women, but I always trust my little birds."  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 12, 2016, 12:58:47 AM
I suspect the little birdies [spoiler]will be stabbing Pycelle and Kevan[/spoiler] at some point this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 12, 2016, 01:03:47 AM
:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 12, 2016, 02:26:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:46:09 AM

Better to turn the talent loose to do a, say, 2-3 season TV adaptation of the Mote in God's Eye series.

would watch
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2016, 08:05:34 AM
Wacky looking aliens don't sell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 12, 2016, 08:10:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2016, 08:05:34 AM
Wacky looking aliens don't sell.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.lum.dolimg.com%2Fv1%2Fimages%2Fadmiralackbar1_2_845df144.jpeg%3Fregion%3D153%252C0%252C1614%252C807%26amp%3Bwidth%3D480&hash=17a76b24b05c0e7f1f091a9d01cbe651401a2716)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2016, 08:13:07 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 11, 2016, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
BTW, who else thinks that the "little birdies" that seem to be defecting to Qyburn are doing so under orders from Varys?

Spoiler:  https://m.westeros.org/index.php/Varys#A_Dance_with_Dragons

I really should really read dance before the next book. Totally forgot everything that happens in there it seems
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2016, 08:25:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2016, 08:05:34 AM
Wacky looking aliens don't sell.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Jabba_the_Hutt.png)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 12, 2016, 08:31:01 AM
In star wars the aliens are varied and supporting.
With the motes they're central to the plot and of a few set types.
I'd love to see such a series.
But it would be a bad business decision
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2016, 08:55:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 12, 2016, 08:31:01 AM
In star wars the aliens are varied and supporting.
With the motes they're central to the plot and of a few set types.
I'd love to see such a series.
But it would be a bad business decision

You keep asserting this, but repeating assertions don't make them any more credible.  Gollum was wacky looking.  He sold.  The Formics were wacky looking. They sold.  The Bugs were wacky looking.  They sold.

I think aliens can do just fine in movies and TV shows, with today's special effects.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 12, 2016, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2016, 08:55:11 AM
I think aliens can do just fine in movies and TV shows, with today's special effects.
Less in TV shows than movies.
Weird looking aliens require lots of prosthetics and special effects, and these costs a lot, often too much than a tv series can afford, even high production ones with budget similar to Game of Thrones.
BSG only had the cylon robots, the others look humans.  In Star Trek, the regular crew was all human looking, except for Worf.  The other aliens we saw, that were not human looking had a very restricted time on the episode.

That's one of the reasons why there are no Star Wars tv shows (non anime), even if it would top the ratings every week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 12, 2016, 10:02:44 AM
Star Trek aliens are so boring. "Hey, let's just take a human and give them pointy ears and ridges on their face!" "Great!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 12, 2016, 10:17:58 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 12, 2016, 09:58:22 AM
Less in TV shows than movies.
Weird looking aliens require lots of prosthetics and special effects, and these costs a lot, often too much than a tv series can afford, even high production ones with budget similar to Game of Thrones.
BSG only had the cylon robots, the others look humans.  In Star Trek, the regular crew was all human looking, except for Worf.  The other aliens we saw, that were not human looking had a very restricted time on the episode.

That's one of the reasons why there are no Star Wars tv shows (non anime), even if it would top the ratings every week.

i disagree that $10 million an episode (a little less than what HBO is paying for season 6 of GoT) is not enough to do special effects sufficient to create credible aliens.  The reason for no Star Wars TV shows is that more movies are still planned, and no one wants to risk the billions of dollars in movie profits by saturating the market.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 12, 2016, 10:40:56 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 12, 2016, 10:17:58 AM
i disagree that $10 million an episode (a little less than what HBO is paying for season 6 of GoT) is not enough to do special effects sufficient to create credible aliens.  The reason for no Star Wars TV shows is that more movies are still planned, and no one wants to risk the billions of dollars in movie profits by saturating the market.
There was a Star Wars TV show planned before the sale of Lucas Arts.  It never came through, because it was too costly.  Twice they tried to bring it to tv, but they could never come around to a decent budget.

10M$/episode gives you Game of Thrones.  Add special effects for spaceships, space and aliens, you'll soon be overbudget.  And you're talking half the viewership of GoT, most likely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 05:02:35 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 12, 2016, 10:40:56 PM
There was a Star Wars TV show planned before the sale of Lucas Arts.  It never came through, because it was too costly.  Twice they tried to bring it to tv, but they could never come around to a decent budget.

10M$/episode gives you Game of Thrones.  Add special effects for spaceships, space and aliens, you'll soon be overbudget.  And you're talking half the viewership of GoT, most likely.

There were no movies planned when the show was considered.  STU was too expensive for ABC, but, then again, so is GOT.

$10M/episode gives you season 6 GoT, add effects for spaceships and aliens (space is easy to do), subtract special effects for a medieval world and magic, subtract the costs of the A list actors, and you are on probably talking about $6 million an episode, same as GoT when it started.  And you'd start at about the viewership of the first GoT, as you note.  That's pretty much the story of every big HBO series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 13, 2016, 05:11:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 05:02:35 AM
$10M/episode gives you season 6 GoT, add effects for spaceships and aliens (space is easy to do), subtract special effects for a medieval world and magic, subtract the costs of the A list actors, and you are on probably talking about $6 million an episode, same as GoT when it started.  And you'd start at about the viewership of the first GoT, as you note.  That's pretty much the story of every big HBO series.

There are no A-listers on GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 08:31:06 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 13, 2016, 05:11:24 AM
There are no A-listers on GoT.

There weren't when they started, except Sean Bean.  Things change.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 13, 2016, 09:06:35 AM
Sean Bean, I don't know if I'd say he was A-list in 2010 either. He had a supporting role in Fellowship and had played the villain in a few fairly big movies from 15-20 years earlier.

As for the major cast members, they're getting rather nice money right now, but I haven't seen any breakout movie roles. To become one of Hollywood's elite, they'll need to get casting directors to see them as somebody other than the character they played for 8 years on GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 09:18:41 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 13, 2016, 09:06:35 AM
Sean Bean, I don't know if I'd say he was A-list in 2010 either. He had a supporting role in Fellowship and had played the villain in a few fairly big movies from 15-20 years earlier.

As for the major cast members, they're getting rather nice money right now, but I haven't seen any breakout movie roles. To become one of Hollywood's elite, they'll need to get casting directors to see them as somebody other than the character they played for 8 years on GoT.

A-list TV is different than A-list "Hollywood."  I'd agree that none of the actors are A-list movie types.  The key cast members are paid in the top tier for TV, though, and that accounts for most of the growth in episode costs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2016, 11:36:12 AM
Yeah, aren't the five primaries getting 300k each per episode now? That is $1.5M per episode just for them alone. And the shows have huge casts for TV shows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 13, 2016, 12:05:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 13, 2016, 09:06:35 AM
Sean Bean, I don't know if I'd say he was A-list in 2010 either. He had a supporting role in Fellowship and had played the villain in a few fairly big movies from 15-20 years earlier.

As for the major cast members, they're getting rather nice money right now, but I haven't seen any breakout movie roles. To become one of Hollywood's elite, they'll need to get casting directors to see them as somebody other than the character they played for 8 years on GoT.

Sean Bean stared in "Sharpes Rifles".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 13, 2016, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2016, 12:05:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 13, 2016, 09:06:35 AM
Sean Bean, I don't know if I'd say he was A-list in 2010 either. He had a supporting role in Fellowship and had played the villain in a few fairly big movies from 15-20 years earlier.

As for the major cast members, they're getting rather nice money right now, but I haven't seen any breakout movie roles. To become one of Hollywood's elite, they'll need to get casting directors to see them as somebody other than the character they played for 8 years on GoT.

Sean Bean stared in "Sharpes Rifles".

Which scene are you thinking of?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 12:17:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 13, 2016, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2016, 12:05:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 13, 2016, 09:06:35 AM
Sean Bean, I don't know if I'd say he was A-list in 2010 either. He had a supporting role in Fellowship and had played the villain in a few fairly big movies from 15-20 years earlier.

As for the major cast members, they're getting rather nice money right now, but I haven't seen any breakout movie roles. To become one of Hollywood's elite, they'll need to get casting directors to see them as somebody other than the character they played for 8 years on GoT.

Sean Bean stared in "Sharpes Rifles".

Which scene are you thinking of?

I think it was the staring one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 13, 2016, 01:01:01 PM
Sean Bean was also in GoldenEye. You don't get more A list than Bond.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 13, 2016, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 13, 2016, 01:01:01 PM
Sean Bean was also in GoldenEye. You don't get more A list than Bond.
The Bond girls almost never become A-listers, it's hit and miss for the Bond actors, and the villains are often established actors, but not A-listers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2016, 01:06:12 PM
I wonder if Bean's career has suffered because he can't do an American accent?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 13, 2016, 01:09:01 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com%2F52%2F10%2F0f70cd8183a827c577ff4e8ad9bf4eb6.jpg&hash=cdd371598033dcf19eb2fa914739e1d0c9685e1c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 13, 2016, 01:11:32 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 13, 2016, 01:01:01 PM
Sean Bean was also in GoldenEye. You don't get more A list than Bond.

You get a fair amount of foreigners we've never heard of, though I could see making this argument for Bean in the late 90s. But when he did Game of Thrones, he'd been doing lower profile work for the past decade.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2016, 01:22:13 PM
To me a list is only the true big super stars.
Tom cruise and Brad Pitt and the like.
Sean Bean.... b at best. Maybe c.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 13, 2016, 01:33:00 PM
That whooshing sound is the point rushing over your heads.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2016, 01:33:00 PM
That whooshing sound is the point rushing over your heads.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc01.deviantart.net%2Ffs70%2Fi%2F2012%2F153%2Fe%2Fa%2Fwhoosh_by_medli20-d520mia.gif&hash=a8973820b554325d2b92615c2789c40e87e2f5be)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 13, 2016, 02:00:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2016, 01:33:00 PM
That whooshing sound is the point rushing over your heads.

We get that the shows have become more expensive to make; discussing who's on the A-List still passes the time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 02:07:24 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 13, 2016, 02:00:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2016, 01:33:00 PM
That whooshing sound is the point rushing over your heads.

We get that the shows have become more expensive to make; discussing who's on the A-List still passes the time.

Ironically, if you actually look up "A List" at The Hollywood Reporter, sort of the arbiter of these things, the lead article is "'Game of Thrones' Star Emilia Clarke Leads Hollywood's New Actor A-List."

Not sure what purpose is served by debating among yourselves who you think is A List, when none of you actually have a voice in that.  Whatever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 13, 2016, 02:27:12 PM
Ok, I missed that she was in the last Terminator movie. /shrug
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 13, 2016, 03:11:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 13, 2016, 02:07:24 PM
Ironically, if you actually look up "A List" at The Hollywood Reporter, sort of the arbiter of these things, the lead article is "'Game of Thrones' Star Emilia Clarke Leads Hollywood's New Actor A-List."

Not sure what purpose is served by debating among yourselves who you think is A List, when none of you actually have a voice in that.  Whatever.
It seems like a fairly decent percentage of the cast is expanding out into feature films, a lot with starring roles in said films.  I presume the trend will continue as the series finishes.  It has definitely been a boon to the careers of those involved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2016, 03:22:39 PM
I saw a promo for a series starring the old blond dude in the skirt who has a boner for Daenaryis on BBC America.  Some kind of Alien Nation meets the Werewolf sort of deal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 14, 2016, 04:51:27 AM
The actress who plays Sansa will be in the next X-Men movie as Jean Grey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 14, 2016, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 14, 2016, 04:51:27 AM
The actress who plays Sansa will be in the next X-Men movie as Jean Grey.

Yup. She seems quite good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2016, 07:59:38 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 09, 2016, 10:34:26 AM
:unsure:  No, there were only two Kingsguard there.  One got killed early, then it was Dayne fighting off the rest of Ned's men by himself.

Just rewatched that part, and you are correct.  Turns out one of Ned's guys had a helmet, and I had remembered a scene with two helmeted guys down and one still standing, and thought they were all Kingsguard and one just hadn't been shown walking up.

I don't know why they changed the three kingsguard to two.  It's one of several things that I don't understand in the TV adaptation of this event, but I'll bet their reasons made sense to them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2016, 09:34:57 PM
Good episode.  I liked the way Dani got herself out of her jam.  I liked the buddy trek.  I didn't like the way Osha died.  She should have gotten a more dignified sendoff.  I guess the formerly loyal House of Umber has been corrupted by the ring, as this now looks a lot less like a ruse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2016, 10:13:35 PM
I don't see how her getting killed looks less like a ruse though - couldn't it just be a badly executed ruse?

Actually...yeah, it would be a pretty terrible ruse, wouldn't it? Giving up the only known living male heir to Bolton, when you have to figure there is a 75% chance he just kills Rickon out of hand 5 minutes after you hand him over? Makes no real sense.

Overall, I am really tired of Ramsey. He is a really boring villain. "Gee, I wonder what Ramsay will do? Oh wait, no I don't, he will do whatever is the most horrible possible thing and everyone will keep folllowing him anyway because he has zero depth of any kind!" Yawn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 15, 2016, 10:33:42 PM
Yep.  Ramsay is a typical, boring, Hollywood-style villain.  At least in the books, we get the sense that the house of cards is going to collapse (if not already) around him without Roose around.  Indeed, I am betting on a "The North Remembers"-style betrayal of many of those inside Winterfell against the Boltons in the very near future.

But show-Ramsay wins through no guile, no cleverness, no interesting manner at all.  He just wins because he is the villain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 15, 2016, 10:42:36 PM
What an AMAZING episode. How many more seasons of this are there again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Neil on May 16, 2016, 12:06:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 11, 2016, 08:46:09 AM
Better to turn the talent loose to do a, say, 2-3 season TV adaptation of the Mote in God's Eye series.
Ringworld.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.

Also, Manse assembled 100,000 Wildling warriors in front of the wall and there's 2,000 left?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 16, 2016, 12:57:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.

:D

she must have some unknown ability to control fire. same thing happened at the pyre, S1. fire swept over it way too quickly. at least there was fuel there
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 01:03:12 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2016, 10:13:35 PM
Actually...yeah, it would be a pretty terrible ruse, wouldn't it? Giving up the only known living male heir to Bolton, when you have to figure there is a 75% chance he just kills Rickon out of hand 5 minutes after you hand him over? Makes no real sense.
It's either a terrible ruse or it was not Rickon.  It was a plot to send Osha in, to kill Bolton.
Or it was not a ruse at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 01:11:14 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Also, Manse assembled 100,000 Wildling warriors in front of the wall and there's 2,000 left?
Where do you get that he had 100k?  I don't think it was that much.

In any event, a lot were killed or injured during the battle by Stannis' forces, a lot retreated north and were decimated by the White Walker's attack.

2000 warriors left out of 100 000 people would be reasonable.  Old people and children don't fight, there are injured&sick folks, and some simply unable to fight (pregnant women, crippled men if they keep any alive, etc).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 01:12:59 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 01:11:14 AM
Where do you get that he had 100k?  I don't think it was that much.

I thought that's the number Jonny kept repeating before the battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 16, 2016, 01:14:31 AM
100k attacked the wall against 2k~ night watchmen (unless the show changed things). then you've got the hardhome bunch, who I think were completely separate from the wall-attacking wildling group
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 16, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.
I'm presuming it was coated with some type of fuel beforehand, hence the involvement of the youngest former Khaleesi.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 06:49:25 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 16, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.
I'm presuming it was coated with some type of fuel beforehand, hence the involvement of the youngest former Khaleesi.

That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered.  it takes care of two plot holes at once.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 16, 2016, 07:14:24 AM
Well, that was certainly an epic ending.

Also, let the Tormund-Brienne shipping commence. :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2016, 08:18:49 AM
Theon got home easily. Wonder how.

And wow Robin has grown! Wonder why he likes Littlefinger so much. Will be good to see the Vale finally do something.
Wonder what Littlefingers plan is here.

Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 16, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.
I'm presuming it was coated with some type of fuel beforehand, hence the involvement of the youngest former Khaleesi.

Good idea. It did strike me that it went up a bit easily.

Still seemed a bit convenient. So you can kill the leaders but as long as you have daemonic fire immunity all good,  everyone will worship you.
Wonder how the books will solve that one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2016, 08:21:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 08:18:49 AM
Still seemed a bit convenient. So you can kill the leaders but as long as you have daemonic fire immunity all good,  everyone will worship you.
Wonder how the books will solve that one.

Didn't she have a standing in the fire scene in the books?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 08:26:04 AM
I hope Queen Margaery is not prevented from doing her walk of shame. : :perv:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 08:18:49 AM
Wonder what Littlefingers plan is here.
Find an excuse to get rid of Bolton.  Either marry Sansa or have her marry Robert and rule in the shadow over all the North.


QuoteStill seemed a bit convenient. So you can kill the leaders but as long as you have daemonic fire immunity all good,  everyone will worship you.
well, it's sort of how it happenned in the first season.  She emerged from the fire and everyone left worshipped her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 08:59:06 AM
I haven't watched the episode yet - is Ser Loras fine?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 09:18:05 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 08:59:06 AM
I haven't watched the episode yet - is Ser Loras fine?  :ph34r:
there's an intense gay scene with the High Sparrow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 16, 2016, 12:57:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.

:D

she must have some unknown ability to control fire. same thing happened at the pyre, S1. fire swept over it way too quickly. at least there was fuel there

This is the kind of thing that is just annoying, because you could make it "reasonable" with a 30 second clip showing (either after as a flashback, or before but make it ambiguous) Jorah and PrettyBoy prepping the location...hell, you could even make it interesting by having them trying to refuse her insane request to make the place flammable, because they don't believe she will be safe...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 10:42:24 AM
I thought of that too, and joked with my friend about gasoline. But the simple solution is that the yurt is highly flammable being made of straw and such.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2016, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 08:18:49 AM
Wonder what Littlefingers plan is here.
Find an excuse to get rid of Bolton.  Either marry Sansa or have her marry Robert and rule in the shadow over all the North.


QuoteStill seemed a bit convenient. So you can kill the leaders but as long as you have daemonic fire immunity all good,  everyone will worship you.
well, it's sort of how it happenned in the first season.  She emerged from the fire and everyone left worshipped her.

Yes, it is doing the same again, except in the first one.
1: They were already semi-loyal to her, the last rabble left from Drogo, wavering on whether to stick with her but not set against her.
2: She hadn't killed their leadership and burned down their most holy building as part of it. Sure, they don't know she caused the fire, but they should still not be happy about it.
3: She had dragons. More of an impressive factor than the fire really.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2016, 12:03:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 11:53:29 AM
3: She had dragons. More of an impressive factor than the fire really.

Not really. Controlling the dragons would be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 12:17:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 10:27:12 AM
This is the kind of thing that is just annoying, because you could make it "reasonable" with a 30 second clip showing (either after as a flashback, or before but make it ambiguous) Jorah and PrettyBoy prepping the location...hell, you could even make it interesting by having them trying to refuse her insane request to make the place flammable, because they don't believe she will be safe...

They just don't have time for every little thing.  If they'd spent time on how Dani's scheme was going to work, they'd have had to cut some or all of the scene where Tyrion is trying to get Grey Worm to play a drinking game.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 12:17:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 10:27:12 AM
This is the kind of thing that is just annoying, because you could make it "reasonable" with a 30 second clip showing (either after as a flashback, or before but make it ambiguous) Jorah and PrettyBoy prepping the location...hell, you could even make it interesting by having them trying to refuse her insane request to make the place flammable, because they don't believe she will be safe...
and then you ruin all the surprise because you know what's going to happen?  Nah. 
Doing it after in a flashback would simply be "over explaining" in my mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 12:17:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 10:27:12 AM
This is the kind of thing that is just annoying, because you could make it "reasonable" with a 30 second clip showing (either after as a flashback, or before but make it ambiguous) Jorah and PrettyBoy prepping the location...hell, you could even make it interesting by having them trying to refuse her insane request to make the place flammable, because they don't believe she will be safe...

They just don't have time for every little thing.  If they'd spent time on how Dani's scheme was going to work, they'd have had to cut some or all of the scene where Tyrion is trying to get Grey Worm to play a drinking game.

Exactly. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 12:17:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 10:27:12 AM
This is the kind of thing that is just annoying, because you could make it "reasonable" with a 30 second clip showing (either after as a flashback, or before but make it ambiguous) Jorah and PrettyBoy prepping the location...hell, you could even make it interesting by having them trying to refuse her insane request to make the place flammable, because they don't believe she will be safe...
and then you ruin all the surprise because you know what's going to happen?  Nah. 

Hence the point about making what they are doing ambiguous.
Quote
Doing it after in a flashback would simply be "over explaining" in my mind.

Well, not doing something is not explaining at all, and makes people wonder why they live in fuel soaked huts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 16, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
I wonder if there will ever be a "director's cut" of Game of Thrones. I am sure they have much more material and just need to cut it to the 50 minutes per week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 01:48:12 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 16, 2016, 12:17:49 PM
and then you ruin all the surprise because you know what's going to happen?  Nah. 
Doing it after in a flashback would simply be "over explaining" in my mind.
Nope.  You don't have to show everything to make the burning scene more believable/interesting.  You can just have them tell Dani that what she wants is dangerous, but that they will play their roles, without saying what it is she wants.  Maybe have the younger woman mention that she can get into the [whatever house] without anyone suspecting.

As it is, there seems to be no connection between Dani's comments to her co-conspirators and the fire itself.  it's possible that we are to take the unusual nature of the fire as Dani's magic (and that the conspiracy was just blocking the door and killing the guards), but it is also possible that we are to take it as a part of her conspiracy. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2016, 02:29:59 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 12:03:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 11:53:29 AM
3: She had dragons. More of an impressive factor than the fire really.

Not really. Controlling the dragons would be.
They were crawling all over her, certainly she seemed to be controlling them.
One of the names she uses is the unburned but mother of dragons is a more prominent one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 16, 2016, 02:31:04 PM
Further evidence that Dany is actually UnDany, and has been for a long time. Unclear memory is a symptom of resurrection, and Dany clearly has weird and missing memories of her childhood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2016, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 16, 2016, 02:31:04 PM
Further evidence that Dany is actually UnDany, and has been for a long time. Unclear memory is a symptom of resurrection, and Dany clearly has weird and missing memories of her childhood.
:hmm:
True on the childhood thing.
But what do you mean by unDany? There's some theory she's a evil daemon thinking its Dany?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 03:31:12 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 16, 2016, 02:31:04 PM
Further evidence that Dany is actually UnDany, and has been for a long time. Unclear memory is a symptom of resurrection, and Dany clearly has weird and missing memories of her childhood.
:hmm:
True on the childhood thing.
But what do you mean by unDany? There's some theory she's a evil daemon thinking its Dany?

She is undead. Same as Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 16, 2016, 12:57:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 16, 2016, 12:44:02 AM
Lucky for Daeny the Khals like to pour barrels of napalm on the floor of their big tent when they meet.

:D

she must have some unknown ability to control fire. same thing happened at the pyre, S1. fire swept over it way too quickly. at least there was fuel there

This is the kind of thing that is just annoying, because you could make it "reasonable" with a 30 second clip showing (either after as a flashback, or before but make it ambiguous) Jorah and PrettyBoy prepping the location...hell, you could even make it interesting by having them trying to refuse her insane request to make the place flammable, because they don't believe she will be safe...

I kinda disagree. Having now watched the show, it is heavily implied they are all in on some sort of plot, but having another explanation that Danny is using some sort of Targ fire magic also works.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 03:37:25 PM
The episode was about women taking charge - Danny, Sansa, Cersei, Olenna, Yara, Brienne, even Margaery and Osha, they all dominated men around them.  :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2016, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 03:37:25 PM
The episode was about women taking charge - Danny, Sansa, Cersei, Olenna, Yara, Brienne, even Margaery and Osha, they all dominated men around them.  :showoff:

Dany, sure. Sansa, well she convinced a man they had common aims. Cersei & Olenna are always plotting, but did they accomplish anything this week? Yara stood up to her broken little brother who just wanted to help her, Bravo. Brienne, no idea what you're talking about. Margaery, same. Osha, dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 16, 2016, 03:56:19 PM
I think it was the episode before this one where there was a funny scene with Mace Tyrell finally getting a line....only to be cut off by Olena.
Interesting change for TV, to make her far more strong and out and out in charge. In the books her control is far more discrete.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 04:00:01 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 03:37:25 PM
The episode was about women taking charge - Danny, Sansa, Cersei, Olenna, Yara, Brienne, even Margaery and Osha, they all dominated men around them.  :showoff:

Dany, sure. Sansa, well she convinced a man they had common aims. Cersei & Olenna are always plotting, but did they accomplish anything this week? Yara stood up to her broken little brother who just wanted to help her, Bravo. Brienne, no idea what you're talking about. Margaery, same. Osha, dead.

I am not saying all of them got what they wanted but all of them seem to be taking initiative. Meanwhile, men like Jon, Kevan etc. seemed to be pretty passive. Or toast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 16, 2016, 03:37:25 PM
The episode was about women taking charge - Danny, Sansa, Cersei, Olenna, Yara, Brienne, even Margaery and Osha, they all dominated men around them.  :showoff:

Dany, sure. Sansa, well she convinced a man they had common aims. Cersei & Olenna are always plotting, but did they accomplish anything this week? Yara stood up to her broken little brother who just wanted to help her, Bravo. Brienne, no idea what you're talking about. Margaery, same. Osha, dead.

Brienne's encounter with Davos and Melissandre  was pretty epic, especially with the drop the mike line about "he admitted it... just before I executed him." 

I think that the whole idea that this episode was "about women taking charge" is easily overstated, however.  It was a good inning for some women, but not for Cersei, Yara, Margaery, or Osha (who failed rather miserably).  It was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PMIt was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.

For a couple reasons at least.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 16, 2016, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PMIt was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.

For a couple reasons at least.  :rolleyes:

It's funny, I had just seen or read an interview where she was talking about how she didn't have to take her clothes off as much these days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 16, 2016, 08:21:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 16, 2016, 12:26:19 PM
Well, not doing something is not explaining at all, and makes people wonder why they live in fuel soaked huts.

They don't.  They were in a structure built with dried out wood located in a desert.  Its not entirely surprising that it caught fire and went up so quickly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 16, 2016, 08:26:46 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 03:56:19 PM
In the books her control is far more discrete.

In the show she is more of a composite character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 16, 2016, 09:03:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PMIt was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.

For a couple reasons at least.  :rolleyes:

It's funny, I had just seen or read an interview where she was talking about how she didn't have to take her clothes off as much these days.

Looked very cgied to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 17, 2016, 03:08:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PM
Brienne's encounter with Davos and Melissandre  was pretty epic, especially with the drop the mike line about "he admitted it... just before I executed him."

I also don't recall if Brienne actually looked at Melissandre when she said Renly was killed by blood magic, but I am sure Melissandre kinda went "oh shit".  :lol:

And that was right after Davos asked her what happened to Shireen. I think Melissandre should better get the hell out of the dodge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 17, 2016, 03:23:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 17, 2016, 03:08:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PM
Brienne's encounter with Davos and Melissandre  was pretty epic, especially with the drop the mike line about "he admitted it... just before I executed him."

I also don't recall if Brienne actually looked at Melissandre when she said Renly was killed by blood magic, but I am sure Melissandre kinda went "oh shit".  :lol:

And that was right after Davos asked her what happened to Shireen. I think Melissandre should better get the hell out of the dodge.

Melisandre would DESTROY Brienne if she got uppity with her. She's got mad skills with the magic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2016, 04:53:03 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 16, 2016, 09:03:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PMIt was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.

For a couple reasons at least.  :rolleyes:

It's funny, I had just seen or read an interview where she was talking about how she didn't have to take her clothes off as much these days.

Looked very cgied to me.

Nope. It was her.  She agreed to make an exception after she read the script.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 17, 2016, 07:13:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 17, 2016, 04:53:03 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 16, 2016, 09:03:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PMIt was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.

For a couple reasons at least.  :rolleyes:

It's funny, I had just seen or read an interview where she was talking about how she didn't have to take her clothes off as much these days.

Looked very cgied to me.

Nope. It was her.  She agreed to make an exception after she read the script.

Ah.

Thank you, Miss Clarke.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 17, 2016, 08:47:35 AM
She is adorable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 17, 2016, 08:51:19 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 16, 2016, 09:03:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 16, 2016, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 16, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 16, 2016, 05:00:08 PMIt was definitely Dani's biggest episode to date.

For a couple reasons at least.  :rolleyes:

It's funny, I had just seen or read an interview where she was talking about how she didn't have to take her clothes off as much these days.

Looked very cgied to me.
yeah, that fire was all fake!


It looks CGIed, because she was not naked in front of a crowd.  She shot her scene in some place, and the crowd was shooting elsewhere.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/15/game-thrones-emilia-clarke-dany
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 17, 2016, 09:00:33 AM
Plus the fake fire around her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on May 17, 2016, 09:16:32 AM
Why do female breasts always look flat when released from bondage?


Anyway another good episode and quite a strong scene for Daenarys.  I assumed Jorah and her lover, whose name escapes me, had used the cover of night to douse the place with whatever alcohol the Dothraki were imbibing.  Although I seem to recall Mongols and other plains tribesmen use mostly fermented mare milk as their booze of choice - not exactly the most flammable substance.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 17, 2016, 09:59:44 AM
Gravity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 17, 2016, 10:04:52 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 17, 2016, 09:59:44 AM
Gravity.

More inertia, I'd say.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 17, 2016, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 16, 2016, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on May 16, 2016, 02:31:04 PM
Further evidence that Dany is actually UnDany, and has been for a long time. Unclear memory is a symptom of resurrection, and Dany clearly has weird and missing memories of her childhood.
:hmm:
True on the childhood thing.
But what do you mean by unDany? There's some theory she's a evil daemon thinking its Dany?
Dany died and was resurrected during the dragon-hatching fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 17, 2016, 03:02:52 PM
evil bloodraven is using glamour magic on the main characters -- almost everyone south of the wall are the real white walkers; the white walkers north of the wall are actually the surviving humans

(edit) original theory, please don't steal
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 17, 2016, 03:14:02 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 17, 2016, 03:02:52 PM
(edit) original theory, please don't steal

Promise I won't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 22, 2016, 04:53:31 PM
Hodoooooor : (

Really tragic fate. Hodor wasn't even a hero, but a victim of the evil skinchanger Bran. He went mad because he experience his own death while being mind controlled by Bran.

Bran == Big Bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 22, 2016, 04:57:22 PM
Is this thread for leaked spoilers now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2016, 05:23:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 22, 2016, 04:57:22 PM
Is this thread for leaked spoilers now?

No, but it's the thread for Hami's amusing trolls.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 22, 2016, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 22, 2016, 05:23:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 22, 2016, 04:57:22 PM
Is this thread for leaked spoilers now?

No, but it's the thread for Hami's amusing trolls.
The episode did leak a day early


[spoiler]although the scene was a bit confusing because it looked like Bran warged into present Hodor, but he was also still in the past messing with past Hodor[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 22, 2016, 07:10:48 PM
Hodor is [spoiler]now the most heartbreaking and noble character of the show.[/spoiler] :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Rex Francorum on May 22, 2016, 09:18:41 PM
Good show.
It seems many are going bonkers about [spoiler]Summer's death. I like the direwolves but I guess some people are going nuts about them.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 22, 2016, 09:20:30 PM
Quote from: Rex Francorum on May 22, 2016, 09:18:41 PM
Good show.
It seems many are going bonkers about [spoiler]Summer's death. I like the direwolves but I guess some people are going nuts about them.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Yeah, every time one of the wolves dies people freak out. Castrate a dude? no biggie. Kill a bunch of people? That's war. You kill a big dog and you went too far :lol:[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2016, 09:29:41 PM
Why are we spoiler-hiding stuff that's been broadcast?  I thought we agreed that just the spoilers from the books were spoilers in this thread.  It kinda defeats the purpose of the thread to avoid talking about the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 22, 2016, 09:31:03 PM
Anyway, I thought the whole night king thing was a bit deus ex machina.  Other than that, a good episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 22, 2016, 10:08:29 PM
Another smallfolk dies so a couple of nobles can enjoy a ski trip.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2016, 10:10:36 PM
Watching right now.  So far I've enjoyed the distorted history of the play.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 22, 2016, 10:13:58 PM
The Hodor thing was very well done, I did not see that coming at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2016, 10:23:03 PM
Just saw that part.  Good bit.

The meeting between Sansa and Littlefinger underlined what a weak plot it was device for Littlefinger to hand Sansa over to the Boltons.  There was no possible advantage to be gained from it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 22, 2016, 11:59:51 PM
if he honestly didn't know about ramsay's true nature and thought of him as some normal dude, it kind of makes sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 23, 2016, 12:05:17 AM
Dammit it Branikan Starkwalker! You were the chosen one! Why'd you have to be a douche and try to skip ahead in your training? Now you got your teacher killed, your friends butchered, and you're headed down a dark path!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 12:08:32 AM
The Ironborn coronation thing was cool. Also Sophie Turner acted the hell out of that scene with Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 12:10:31 AM
The Danny and Jorah scene was a tear jerker. By the way, can horses can grey scale?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 23, 2016, 12:15:43 AM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fZSmhIIo--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/kuvdxepi8r61azzrsbh4.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 23, 2016, 12:31:09 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 22, 2016, 11:59:51 PM
if he honestly didn't know about ramsay's true nature and thought of him as some normal dude, it kind of makes sense.
he could have known and hoped Sansa would get killed.
or he could have not known and simply wanted to cement an alliance with the Bolton, the strongest force in the North.
Or he could have known, hope he would be the one rescuing Sansa to keep her under his thumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 12:42:30 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 23, 2016, 12:15:43 AM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fZSmhIIo--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/kuvdxepi8r61azzrsbh4.jpg)
:lol:  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 01:02:11 AM
Really great episode, imho. Not a single scene that I disliked. A bit surprised Tyrion bought so easily into the Red Priestess' bullshit, but I suppose, like all the Lannister kids, he is overconfident and thinks he can control a "religion for the small folk".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 03:33:19 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 22, 2016, 07:10:48 PM
Hodor is [spoiler]now the most heartbreaking and noble character of the show.[/spoiler] :(

Yup. As with the death of Oberyn ("If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention"), Game of Thrones once again delivers a kick-in-the-stomach foreshadowing line this week, with Jaqen saying (I paraphrase) "Would you have the death take only the wicked and leave the innocent behind"?  :cry:

Edit: In completely unrelated news, I only now realised GRRM's joke in the name of "Molestown". :bleeding:  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 23, 2016, 04:22:44 AM
Great episode. The Hodor scene made me realise that we book readers are in for some Red Wedding style surprises from now on. It scares and excites me for the rest of this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 23, 2016, 04:22:44 AM
Great episode. The Hodor scene made me realise that we book readers are in for some Red Wedding style surprises from now on. It scares and excites me for the rest of this season.

Yup. And remember, "if you think there is a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 01:02:59 PM
The saddest part of this all: we are half done with this season. And then it's one more year of waiting, and the last season.  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 01:14:19 PM
There are two more seasons scheduled.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 01:14:57 PM
I bet they will add an eighth season.

I wonder what happens to the Knights of the Vale now that Sansa told Littlefinger to fuck off. He did not even mention them on his and Sansa's brief helicopter meeting in Moletown.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 23, 2016, 01:23:20 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 23, 2016, 04:22:44 AM
Great episode. The Hodor scene made me realise that we book readers are in for some Red Wedding style surprises from now on. It scares and excites me for the rest of this season.

And it would great if the book goes its own way and provides us with even more surprises.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 01:24:21 PM
I wish they would get Ramsey killed off already.

By far the worst character in the entire series.

I get this feeling that after Joffrey died, they decided they needed another character people will love to hate. Unfortunately, they created a character people just plain hate period.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 01:14:57 PM
I wonder what happens to the Knights of the Vale now that Sansa told Littlefinger to fuck off. He did not even mention them on his and Sansa's brief helicopter meeting in Moletown.

They will almost certainly ride to the rescue at the last second for the North and Jon's forces.  Hopefully right as Jon chops Ramsay's head off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 01:39:01 PM
Jon won't kill Ramsay, it will be Theon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 01:40:44 PM
Yes, Theon, who will take a quick pit-stop to the North en route to Essos.  He will take Littlefinger's teleporter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 23, 2016, 01:41:08 PM
No.  Ghost will eat Ramsay since the latter's dogs were previously used to eat people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 23, 2016, 03:28:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 01:39:01 PM
Jon won't kill Ramsay, it will be Theon.

It will be Sansa
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2016, 03:32:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 01:14:57 PM
I bet they will add an eighth season. 

My understanding is that there are currently plans to run a total of 75 episodes, with season 7 having 8 episodes and season 8 having 7.   Apparently, it isn't really possible to shoot ten episodes a season any more, since they are getting so much more complex and full of effects.

Twenty more episodes sounds about right. They need to start wrapping this up and start giving the audience payoff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2016, 03:33:46 PM
Well damn. A lot happened in that episode. Nice to see so much revealed but all feels a bit sudden.

*High red priest showing up at Myreen seemed a bit sudden and out of nowhere.
*HOLY CRAP! THIS IS BIG! Revelation about where the others actually come from!
....and its a throw away scene in the middle of the episode? WTF.
*Also interesting was the hold the door/time travel messing theory......
But that they give this more importance than the creation of the Others is just bizzare.
*So much for the children not actually being against the others then....Though the whole mark thing was a bit dumb. Hopefully that won't carry over to the books.
*Where the hell is that door that it can escape the zombies like that?
*"Oh, btw, remember that Bran had that wolf with him too? Here it is. There it goes."
*Is Littlefinger lying?
How would the army be at Moat Cailin?
How would Blackfish have Riverrun?
The Freys have vanished?
Surely a ship to White Harbour would be the sensible path for the Vale Knights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2016, 03:34:02 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 23, 2016, 01:41:08 PM
No.  Ghost will eat Ramsay since the latter's dogs were previously used to eat people.

Ghost will probably kill all Ramsey's "girls," if not Ramsey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 23, 2016, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 01:14:57 PMI wonder what happens to the Knights of the Vale now that Sansa told Littlefinger to fuck off. He did not even mention them on his and Sansa's brief helicopter meeting in Moletown.

Didn't he mention that they were in or around Moat Cailin?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:06:17 PM
The scene with the Night King and his zombie army entering the crypt didn't make much sense. What took the four white walkers so long? The crypt isn't that big. They should have arrived as a group and before the zombies...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2016, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 01:14:57 PMI wonder what happens to the Knights of the Vale now that Sansa told Littlefinger to fuck off. He did not even mention them on his and Sansa's brief helicopter meeting in Moletown.

Didn't he mention that they were in or around Moat Cailin?
I thought that was the Blackfish? Which still ignores the Freys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
The Red Priestess in Meeren did not come out of nowhere. There was at least one scene before in Meeren with a different Red Priest preaching to the masses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:07:46 PM
I thought that was the Blackfish? Which still ignores the Freys.

No, Littlefinger said kampfgruppe Vale was at Moat Caitlin.  Which doesn't make much sense either, given that the Boltons hold it now and it has previously been described as impregnable, at least from the south.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 23, 2016, 05:50:29 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2016, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 01:14:57 PMI wonder what happens to the Knights of the Vale now that Sansa told Littlefinger to fuck off. He did not even mention them on his and Sansa's brief helicopter meeting in Moletown.

Didn't he mention that they were in or around Moat Cailin?
I thought that was the Blackfish? Which still ignores the Freys.

No, apparently the Blackfish with a reformed Tully army retook Riverun. According to Littlefinger, anyway, who knows how much of what he says is truth and how much is hooks for others to bite.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 23, 2016, 05:50:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
The Red Priestess in Meeren did not come out of nowhere. There was at least one scene before in Meeren with a different Red Priest preaching to the masses.

And this same Red Priestess appeared back in Volantis last season, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 23, 2016, 05:50:29 PM
No, apparently the Blackfish with a reformed Tully army retook Riverun. According to Littlefinger, anyway, who knows how much of what he says is truth and how much is hooks for others to bite.

We did have that previous scene in which the wussy prince agrees to send his army to Sansa's rescue.  So unless the writers are playing a Usual Suspects style con job on the audience I thiink we can assume they're at Moat Caitlin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 05:53:57 PM
We did have that previous scene in which the wussy prince agrees to send his army to Sansa's rescue.  So unless the writers are playing a Usual Suspects style con job on the audience I thiink we can assume they're at Moat Caitlin.

Would again raise the question of the apparent passivity of the Freys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Would again raise the question of the apparent passivity of the Freys.

To play devil's advocate, we know the Twins block passage to the River Lands, but do we know they block passage to the Vale?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2016, 06:21:02 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
The Red Priestess in Meeren did not come out of nowhere. There was at least one scene before in Meeren with a different Red Priest preaching to the masses.

The guy behind her was there before.
But that woman did. She had come from tyrosh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 23, 2016, 06:57:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 23, 2016, 03:28:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 01:39:01 PM
Jon won't kill Ramsay, it will be Theon.

It will be Sansa

My money's on Sansa too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 23, 2016, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 01:40:44 PM
Yes, Theon, who will take a quick pit-stop to the North en route to Essos.  He will take Littlefinger's teleporter.

That teleporter's been quite busy. REd Princess got to Mereen pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 08:16:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:06:17 PM
The scene with the Night King and his zombie army entering the crypt didn't make much sense. What took the four white walkers so long? The crypt isn't that big. They should have arrived as a group and before the zombies...

The show writers can be pretty sloppy when it comes to making their plots actually make much sense.

The old dude tells Bran he is marked, they can now get in, and hence they must leave now. OK.

Next thing we know...Bran and old dude are having a little mental vacation hanging with Ned, and didn't bother to consider that the walkers, who he had just said could now enter and they MUST LEAVE might actually show up.

And of course, they do show up at just that exact time, and make it  a point to array themselves impressively first. Everyone in the North is apparently a pretty fucking serious drama queen, and the White Walkers (or maybe they should be called scamperers) are no exception.

I really do love this show, but the writing at times is incredibly lazy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Would again raise the question of the apparent passivity of the Freys.

To play devil's advocate, we know the Twins block passage to the River Lands, but do we know they block passage to the Vale?

They do not.  The Vale has its own road to the North/Moat Cailin--the King's Road.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 11:50:10 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 05:53:57 PM
We did have that previous scene in which the wussy prince agrees to send his army to Sansa's rescue.  So unless the writers are playing a Usual Suspects style con job on the audience I thiink we can assume they're at Moat Caitlin.

Would again raise the question of the apparent passivity of the Freys.

I know it would be somewhat against the narrative tradition that we weren't shown that - but it would not be inconceivable of them letting Littlefinger pass, especially after they found out a Frey woman and her kid (a heir to Winterfell) died in a freak hound feeding accident.

Plus, from trailers we know that Walder Frey is making a come back this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2016, 11:55:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 23, 2016, 08:16:36 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2016, 05:06:17 PM
The scene with the Night King and his zombie army entering the crypt didn't make much sense. What took the four white walkers so long? The crypt isn't that big. They should have arrived as a group and before the zombies...

The show writers can be pretty sloppy when it comes to making their plots actually make much sense.

The old dude tells Bran he is marked, they can now get in, and hence they must leave now. OK.

Next thing we know...Bran and old dude are having a little mental vacation hanging with Ned, and didn't bother to consider that the walkers, who he had just said could now enter and they MUST LEAVE might actually show up.

And of course, they do show up at just that exact time, and make it  a point to array themselves impressively first. Everyone in the North is apparently a pretty fucking serious drama queen, and the White Walkers (or maybe they should be called scamperers) are no exception.

I really do love this show, but the writing at times is incredibly lazy.

Only that, if they didn't do that, Hodor does not get Hodored by Bran, which means he has never stopped being Willis, which means he never helps Bran get to the Three Eyed Raven, which means nothing in the cave ever happens. It is fair to assume the Three Eyed Raven knows that (and knows he is going to die) so he takes Bran on a "mental vacation" deliberately.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2016, 12:36:24 AM
More or less crazy fan theories from review shows:

- Bran the Builder is Bran Stark reinserting himself in the past to build the Wall
- Littlefinger is behind Umbers' "betrayal" and he is setting up Northerners and the Riverlanders to kill each other so he can swoop down and take everything with his Knights of the Vale
- Littlefinger may even be behind sending the pink letter to Jon
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 24, 2016, 12:44:29 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Would again raise the question of the apparent passivity of the Freys.

To play devil's advocate, we know the Twins block passage to the River Lands, but do we know they block passage to the Vale?

They do not.  The Vale has its own road to the North/Moat Cailin--the King's Road.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Twins?_ga=1.167414462.120784922.1443953560

They don't totally cut off access but they are much too close for comfort.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2016, 12:57:51 AM
In what way are they too close for comfort?  The Kingsroad runs directly from the Vale to Moat Cailin.  The Freys holding the crossing that leads to Riverrun is their strength.  They have nowhere near the numbers or the power to challenge an army that the Vale would send north along the Kingsroad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2016, 01:16:14 AM
Incidentally, I thought we were previously struggling with finding an equivalent of Donald Trump in Westeros - after last episode he is the King of Iron Islands.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 24, 2016, 10:36:08 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2016, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2016, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Would again raise the question of the apparent passivity of the Freys.

To play devil's advocate, we know the Twins block passage to the River Lands, but do we know they block passage to the Vale?

They do not.  The Vale has its own road to the North/Moat Cailin--the King's Road.

Which is not far from the Twins.  Freys don't keep some sort of watch on the road?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2016, 10:59:39 AM
The distance from the Twins to the Kingsroad is around 100 miles, possibly more (the estimates are rough on this, of course).  The Freys certainly do have patrols on the road, but what of it?  How would they easily block an army--one that is guaranteed to be more powerful than their own--from crossing one of the only major highways?  Their power, as I posed above, is The Twins.  They do nothing but lose if they send their garrisons out to oppose a fresh, unblooded army from the Vale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 24, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2016, 01:16:14 AM
Incidentally, I thought we were previously struggling with finding an equivalent of Donald Trump in Westeros - after last episode he is the King of Iron Islands.  :lol:

We're going to have yuge YUGE ships.  You're not going to believe how many ships we'll have.  We'll have so many ships you won't want to have ships any more.

And that Dany girl - what a looker!  Almost as hot as my daughter.  Almost.  Not like the Lannister broad with the dikey haircut. 

Ok time to be the king now.  Watch how I swallow that seawater!  No one swallows like me! If Hillary Clinton could have swallowed like me, she never would have had those problems will Bill.

Anyway got to go now.  Gotta get those ships built.  And then the wall.  The wall isn't big enough.  The Mexi- I mean wildlings are getting through!  We need a bigger wall.  Who will pay for it?   Others.  Others will pay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2016, 12:43:09 PM
Seriously, Euron's bit at the Kingsmoot was one of the weakest scenes of the entire episode.  He basically played Hillary to Yara/Asha's Bernie.  "We're going to do everything she says, but better!"

The lines he had in the books were much more convincing, especially with the prevalence of looted objects from all his travels, and a supposed magical horn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 24, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
How did Yara manage to take all the navy with her? Seems like every Iron Islands citizen fled with her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 24, 2016, 01:09:15 PM
Why would all of the ship crews be loyal to her but all of the other Ironborn loyal to Euron? Why were the ship crews not at the Kingsmoot...? Does not make much sense
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 24, 2016, 01:16:39 PM
Euron's guys went to watch the coronation.
Her guys stole the ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2016, 01:23:34 PM
Her 15 guys stole 50 ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on May 24, 2016, 01:32:24 PM
I bet that "origins of the white walkers" flashback is a huge misdirection.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2016, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 24, 2016, 01:09:15 PM
Why would all of the ship crews be loyal to her but all of the other Ironborn loyal to Euron? Why were the ship crews not at the Kingsmoot...? Does not make much sense

Blame it on sloppy writing (I know I do) or maybe that it will be explained in future episodes (I doubt it).  The Kingsmoot is supposed to be comprised of longship captains (which explains the relatively low numbers in participation) who elect the new king by acclamation.  It's entirely possible that the Yara/Asha-loyal crews, who are not present, were off securing the ships in case of an electoral loss.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 24, 2016, 01:59:25 PM
http://imgur.com/a/eNr9W#3mkhXxI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 24, 2016, 02:06:12 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 24, 2016, 01:59:25 PM
http://imgur.com/a/eNr9W#3mkhXxI

:lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 24, 2016, 02:30:00 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 24, 2016, 11:03:07 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 24, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Watch how I swallow that seawater!  No one swallows like me! If Hillary Clinton could have swallowed like me, she never would have had those problems will Bill.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 25, 2016, 04:44:58 PM
I've just realised something about bran.
Seemed a bit weird he would be able to escape right?
A girl pulling a cripple through the snow out of a convenient side door....
... but think about why they had to flee. The stupid plot point mark of the other who everyone accepts is called the night king with no introduction.
Other touched bran. Other can get through the children's wards.
What else is warded by the children so the others can't pass?
The wall.

They're going to let bran get away.
It's an open door to the realms of men.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 05:26:54 PM
Th whole "marking" thing seems like a thin plot device.  If the Night King could mark someone and, after they passed the wall, pass it himself, it seems like he'd have done that long before now.  Ditto for the cave; capture someone, touch them, let them "escape" and chase them into the cave.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 25, 2016, 06:01:14 PM
thought they couldn't find the cave, as well as not being able to enter it even if they did. re: second point, maybe children of the forest suicide if captured?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 25, 2016, 06:01:14 PM
thought they couldn't find the cave

The Ice Smurfs weren't there, but Bran's party was attacked by zombies right at the entrance.  That's where Love Naturally bought the farm.

It just struck me that so far this season has not been very good for sexy hoors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on May 25, 2016, 06:01:14 PM
thought they couldn't find the cave, as well as not being able to enter it even if they did. re: second point, maybe children of the forest suicide if captured?
The dead dudes seemed to know where the cave was; they were waiting for Bran's party when they arrived.

You wouldn't need to capture a child of the forest.  Capturing a human would do.  Just herd him or her into the cave.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:23:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 25, 2016, 04:44:58 PM

They're going to let bran get away.
It's an open door to the realms of men.
yes, I thought of that.  I wondered if the mark was permanent, if it was a one shot deal, if it disapeared after a while, stuff like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 05:26:54 PM
Th whole "marking" thing seems like a thin plot device.  If the Night King could mark someone and, after they passed the wall, pass it himself, it seems like he'd have done that long before now.  Ditto for the cave; capture someone, touch them, let them "escape" and chase them into the cave.
I don't think it work on anyone at anytime. He touched Bran while he was visiting the past.  Bran is a warg and he can "travel" through time and space (forgot how they call this), like the Three Eyed Raven.  It is possible it requires that kind of person and that kind of contact to make it happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:27:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 06:04:56 PM
It just struck me that so far this season has not been very good for sexy hoors.
ah, here, I have a problem.
I searched for "sexy hoors".  And it gave me links to "horse sex with girls"...  ahem.
So, prey tell, what is it you are referring to as "sexy hoors" ?? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 07:30:30 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:27:14 PM
So, prey tell, what is it you are referring to as "sexy hoors" ??

Hoor is a countrified way of pronouncing whore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on May 25, 2016, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 07:17:45 PMThe dead dudes seemed to know where the cave was; they were waiting for Bran's party when they arrived.

You wouldn't need to capture a child of the forest.  Capturing a human would do.  Just herd him or her into the cave.

I might be misremembering, but I thought the white walkers both didn't know the location and couldn't enter even if they did. then again, there were those skeletons outside the cave a few seasons back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:25:39 PM
I don't think it work on anyone at anytime. He touched Bran while he was visiting the past.  Bran is a warg and he can "travel" through time and space (forgot how they call this), like the Three Eyed Raven.  It is possible it requires that kind of person and that kind of contact to make it happen.

That makes the plot line even thinner.  The Night King just happened to be in the one place where he could find the one person who could be marked?

And how would the Raven know the effect of the mark if it could only happen to one person, a person who hadn't even been visiting the past for very long?

Yeah, i know, they had to come up with a way to get Bran out of the cave before he finished his training, but just a "he touched you, so now he knows where you are" would have sufficed.  Don't get me started on how the Hodor thing strained disbelief.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 09:46:11 PM
The danger here is assuming the Wall and this cave are protected by the same magics.

The Wall is very old and the magics that protect it are not understood even by the wisest sorcerers in the world. The Children didn't build the Wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 25, 2016, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 05:26:54 PM
Th whole "marking" thing seems like a thin plot device.  If the Night King could mark someone and, after they passed the wall, pass it himself, it seems like he'd have done that long before now.  Ditto for the cave; capture someone, touch them, let them "escape" and chase them into the cave.
I don't think it work on anyone at anytime. He touched Bran while he was visiting the past.  Bran is a warg and he can "travel" through time and space (forgot how they call this), like the Three Eyed Raven.  It is possible it requires that kind of person and that kind of contact to make it happen.

It works, or doesn't work, exactly how the writers want or don't want it to work or not work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 09:49:29 PM
What are the other implications of being marked? Does that mean Bran will eventually become a white walker? Is it like Jorah and his rot?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 09:50:38 PM
Ice cooties.  No big deal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 10:04:09 PM
So from next week's trailer, is shiz going down between the Tyrells and the Faith? It looked like some kind of confrontation was happening when they tried to march Margaery. What scheme is hatching there?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 10:10:19 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 10:04:09 PM
So from next week's trailer, is shiz going down between the Tyrells and the Faith? It looked like some kind of confrontation was happening when they tried to march Margaery. What scheme is hatching there?

Last week (I think) in the little council they made a deal that the Lannisters would stand aside while the Highgardens beat up the Faith and rescued the prisoners.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 10:13:40 PM
Holy heck...next episode is going to be a nail biter.

Any chance Margy gets whacked?

What is Cerseis angle here?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 10:15:02 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 25, 2016, 10:13:40 PM
What is Cerseis angle here?

I'm guessing she wants to fuck up the folks who forced her to do the beaver promenade.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 25, 2016, 10:32:48 PM
The Lannisters will have miscalculated in allowing the Tyrell army into King's Landing.  The Queen of Thorns will direct the army to occupy the city and install herself as defacto ruler with Tommen as a puppet.
-OR-
Civil war erupts, and the people overthrow both the Tyrells and Lannisters.  The High Sparrow establishes a theocracy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 11:34:02 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2016, 07:30:30 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:27:14 PM
So, prey tell, what is it you are referring to as "sexy hoors" ??

Hoor is a countrified way of pronouncing whore.
ah, ok.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 11:37:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
That makes the plot line even thinner.  The Night King just happened to be in the one place where he could find the one person who could be marked?
Bran went to the place he was "born".  He returned there later alone, and there were lots of White Walkers, he just stayed too long.

Quote
And how would the Raven know the effect of the mark if it could only happen to one person, a person who hadn't even been visiting the past for very long?
Because the Raven is like Bran and he can travel through time?  How would he know Bran and send someone to fetch him (Coldhands, the Raven)?

Quote
Don't get me started on how the Hodor thing strained disbelief.
More so than a girl walking through fire unarmed or more than having tamed dragons flying the landscape to eventually destroy mankind's ennemy who just so happen to be vulnerable to fire, once the Wall goes down? :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 11:38:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 25, 2016, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2016, 05:26:54 PM
Th whole "marking" thing seems like a thin plot device.  If the Night King could mark someone and, after they passed the wall, pass it himself, it seems like he'd have done that long before now.  Ditto for the cave; capture someone, touch them, let them "escape" and chase them into the cave.
I don't think it work on anyone at anytime. He touched Bran while he was visiting the past.  Bran is a warg and he can "travel" through time and space (forgot how they call this), like the Three Eyed Raven.  It is possible it requires that kind of person and that kind of contact to make it happen.

It works, or doesn't work, exactly how the writers want or don't want it to work or not work.
Yes, it is logical. ;)
But I just thought I might have missed something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 26, 2016, 04:20:13 AM
The mark was absolutely a stupid plot point.
But it does make sense that it wouldn't have been possible before, Bran's spirit was out and walking about, the mark was on his spirit, not just his body. Seems reasonable that if they had tried it on a regular person it wouldn't have worked.

The wights were certainly watching the door of the children.
I guess there the explanation that comes to mind for me is that these aren't the only children. There are other children colonies out there. They had wights watching the door of all of them for some reason. They didn't bank on the wights failing to stop someone getting through.

I really do wonder about Bloodraven's time for you to become me and the insinuation that he has changed the past too.

QuoteThe danger here is assuming the Wall and this cave are protected by the same magics.

The Wall is very old and the magics that protect it are not understood even by the wisest sorcerers in the world. The Children didn't build the Wall.

They helped in ending the long night. It seems logical they'd help with the wall too.
Where else do we get such warding magic afterall.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2016, 06:43:09 PM
HBO hired some nerds doing a GOT fanboi podcast to do the same thing on TV.

http://www.hbo.com/after-the-thrones
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 26, 2016, 06:57:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2016, 06:43:09 PM
HBO hired some nerds doing a GOT fanboi podcast to do the same thing on TV.

http://www.hbo.com/after-the-thrones

Those guys were not fans doing an amateur podcast, they were writers for Grantland who did their podcast there. It's pretty obvious if you listen to them that they're professionals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2016, 07:03:09 PM
They're definitely nerds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 26, 2016, 07:12:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2016, 07:03:09 PM
They're definitely nerds.

That's for sure.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 12:25:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2016, 07:03:09 PM
They're definitely nerds.

Most show writers are.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 27, 2016, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 27, 2016, 12:25:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 26, 2016, 07:03:09 PM
They're definitely nerds.

Most show writers are.  :huh:

:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: citizen k on May 27, 2016, 03:42:08 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/05/the-ethics-of-hodor/484643/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/05/the-ethics-of-hodor/484643/)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 29, 2016, 09:12:19 PM
Felt like kind of a flat episode to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2016, 09:16:47 PM
Finally, some payoff episodes.

I was surprised that Jon Snow and the North were ignored this episode.  That's okay, because that allowed some additional plot advancements elsewhere, but it kinda cuts across the grain of what they have done so far.

Interesting that  they are bringing Edmure Tully up, now, as that was an element from a few books ago.  In some ways, the series has yet to catch up to the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2016, 09:38:26 PM
I thought it was a good episode, except the Dany line, which was just filler.  I guess Middle Eastern extras need to eat too.

Best part was the Arya line.  My hunch is it was a test the whole time, which she passed.  Maybe she'll gut blondie, who is actually the one who failed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 29, 2016, 10:34:15 PM
Explain your hunch. It makes little and less sense.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 29, 2016, 10:41:51 PM
So I guess arya is going to die now. She'll probably kill the waif, but pretty boy will stab her or something back in westoros before she can off someone from her list, because Starks have bad luck, especially when they try to do what's right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2016, 10:45:05 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 29, 2016, 10:41:51 PM
So I guess arya is going to die now. She'll probably kill the waif, but pretty boy will stab her or something back in westoros before she can off someone from her list, because Starks have bad luck, especially when they try to do what's right.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 29, 2016, 10:45:47 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 29, 2016, 10:45:05 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 29, 2016, 10:41:51 PM
So I guess arya is going to die now. She'll probably kill the waif, but pretty boy will stab her or something back in westoros before she can off someone from her list, because Starks have bad luck, especially when they try to do what's right.

:rolleyes:
:unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2016, 10:46:29 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 29, 2016, 10:34:15 PM
Explain your hunch. It makes little and less sense.

If it comes down to a kill or be killed situation between Arya and the Faceless Men, obviously she would have to die, so some plot device is needed whereby Arya can remain true to her principles.  A handy plot device is that the Faceless Men really only do kill those who deserve to die, and she was sent on this bad assignment to she how she would respond.  And the only people we've seen killed so far by Frosted Highlights have been Lannister thugs and the cheating insurance salesman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2016, 11:06:45 PM
And also up to now when a main character dies, it's usually some sort of surprise.  I can't think of anyone who's death was telegraphed. It wouldn't be consistent with the series for Arya to be holed up in her pitch black cell with her Girl Scout sword waiting for the inevitable and then just die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 29, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
I thought Eddard Stark's death was telegraphed.  They even got a crowd to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 12:13:28 AM
Incidentally, as fans pointed out, this is the first episode this season when noone died. Probably that's why people feel it was boring or flat - we got used to slaughter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 12:56:34 AM
So, what game is Margaery playing? I mean, I suppose her short term goal was "get myself out of prison" but in the long run? I am pretty sure she is not a true convert.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/5WMdv/new

Might be interesting for y'all. Someone broke down Bran's visions frame by frame for your enjoyment.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 30, 2016, 01:18:07 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/5WMdv/new

Might be interesting for y'all. Someone broke down Bran's visions frame by frame for your enjoyment.





I was underwhelmed by the Mad King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 01:49:32 AM
Why sir?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 30, 2016, 02:06:21 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 01:49:32 AM
Why sir?

Comical rather than mad scary.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.vanityfair.com%2Fphotos%2F574ba657b1a9903a48827720%2Fmaster%2Fw_900%2Fgame-of-thrones-episode-6-5.jpg&hash=1d5d1b47cb56aa5d563ab463b6713b8ea713822c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2016, 02:08:29 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 29, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
I thought Eddard Stark's death was telegraphed.  They even got a crowd to watch.

QED.  He was supposed to confess in return for mercy.  The execution was a last second change in plans.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 03:00:47 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 30, 2016, 01:18:07 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/5WMdv/new

Might be interesting for y'all. Someone broke down Bran's visions frame by frame for your enjoyment.





I was underwhelmed by the Mad King.

What I found a bit odd is the young Kingslayer being played by Coster-Waldau (the actor who plays the current Jaime). I know that would probably not make a lot of sense to cast a new character for a short flash back scene, but Jaime was what, 16, at the time he killed the Mad King? So it's not just that he would grow older by the modern times, he would have actually grown bigger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 03:01:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2016, 02:08:29 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 29, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
I thought Eddard Stark's death was telegraphed.  They even got a crowd to watch.

QED.  He was supposed to confess in return for mercy.  The execution was a last second change in plans.

Yeah, saying that one of the top three biggest surprise deaths in Game of Thrones was telegraphed is laughable.

I think Raz thinks the word "telegraphed" means something else than it actually does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 03:07:08 AM
Besides, whilst Game of Thrones is "realistic" in terms of characters being in danger of death, it is still a story - and for a story to be good, it needs to fit some narrative purpose.

Killing off Ned Stark served a huge narrative purpose - it in fact set off the entire War of Five Kings, with consequences of this being felt to this day. So any effort that had gone into building up Ned's story line paid off. Killing Arya off at this point* serves absolutely no narrative purpose - and, given that she has really not interacted with any other storyline since she left Westeros - all the time invested into developing her and the Faceless Men would be a total waste of time. It would just be bad storytelling.

*That is not to say she is not doomed in future. But as they say to death in Braavos, not today.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 30, 2016, 05:04:16 AM
I liked this episode, but neither fat wannabe-maester or wildling girl is interesting. Oh and Dany's story seemingly is going nowhere until Pilou shows up with a 1000 boats.

Will be looking forward to the reunion at Riverland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 30, 2016, 10:16:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2016, 09:38:26 PM
I thought it was a good episode, except the Dany line, which was just filler.  I guess Middle Eastern extras need to eat too.

Best part was the Arya line.  My hunch is it was a test the whole time, which she passed.  Maybe she'll gut blondie, who is actually the one who failed.

I think they're Moroccan, no?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on May 30, 2016, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 30, 2016, 10:16:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2016, 09:38:26 PM
I thought it was a good episode, except the Dany line, which was just filler.  I guess Middle Eastern extras need to eat too.

Best part was the Arya line.  My hunch is it was a test the whole time, which she passed.  Maybe she'll gut blondie, who is actually the one who failed.

I think they're Moroccan, no?

I would think the group should look more diverse after centuries of raping people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 30, 2016, 10:38:26 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
http://imgur.com/gallery/5WMdv/new

Might be interesting for y'all. Someone broke down Bran's visions frame by frame for your enjoyment.
yes, they need the dragons and wildfire to defeat the White Walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
What's the point of Sam taking Heartsbane?

Is he still not going to Oldtown? If so, it isn't like his father won't know where to look. Is he just going to send it back to the Wall?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 30, 2016, 02:41:40 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
What's the point of Sam taking Heartsbane?

Is he still not going to Oldtown? If so, it isn't like his father won't know where to look. Is he just going to send it back to the Wall?
He's going to keep it and bring it with him to the wall when he goes back there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 30, 2016, 02:43:32 PM
Lame ending.
Just noticed Richard E Grant.
Sudden Benjen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 30, 2016, 02:41:40 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
What's the point of Sam taking Heartsbane?

Is he still not going to Oldtown? If so, it isn't like his father won't know where to look. Is he just going to send it back to the Wall?
He's going to keep it and bring it with him to the wall when he goes back there.

How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 30, 2016, 02:45:06 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
What's the point of Sam taking Heartsbane?

Is he still not going to Oldtown? If so, it isn't like his father won't know where to look. Is he just going to send it back to the Wall?
hes gonna kill the night king with it. (Probably not :P)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 30, 2016, 02:53:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 03:01:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2016, 02:08:29 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 29, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
I thought Eddard Stark's death was telegraphed.  They even got a crowd to watch.

QED.  He was supposed to confess in return for mercy.  The execution was a last second change in plans.

Yeah, saying that one of the top three biggest surprise deaths in Game of Thrones was telegraphed is laughable.

I think Raz thinks the word "telegraphed" means something else than it actually does.

Signaled in advance.  "you will be executed" is a pretty good signal.  Besides, the story really couldn't go on if he doesn't die.  Also I read the books, and I knew he was going to die in the first thirty pages when they found a found a dead dire wolf and hart.  Then the king shows up with symbol of a hart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 30, 2016, 04:26:42 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 30, 2016, 10:16:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2016, 09:38:26 PM
I thought it was a good episode, except the Dany line, which was just filler.  I guess Middle Eastern extras need to eat too.

Best part was the Arya line.  My hunch is it was a test the whole time, which she passed.  Maybe she'll gut blondie, who is actually the one who failed.

I think they're Moroccan, no?

Dany's scenes with the Dothraki this season have all been shot in Spain. The badlands where they're at the moment are the Bardenas Reales, in Navarra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardenas_Reales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardenas_Reales)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 30, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
The Dany-Dothraki thing is really not well done.

Before, we understood and had some connection to the Dothraki that were following her - they were "her" Dothraki. *Her* khalasar. Like the Unsullied, or even her dragons - they were connected to her specifically.

All these mofos? Who the fuck are they? Do any of them even have names? Am I supposed to care about them at all?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 30, 2016, 08:34:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 30, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
The Dany-Dothraki thing is really not well done.

Before, we understood and had some connection to the Dothraki that were following her - they were "her" Dothraki. *Her* khalasar. Like the Unsullied, or even her dragons - they were connected to her specifically.

All these mofos? Who the fuck are they? Do any of them even have names? Am I supposed to care about them at all?

Picture them all in red shirts, and you'll understand their role in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 08:56:03 PM
They are going to tear down the stone houses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 30, 2016, 10:22:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 30, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
The Dany-Dothraki thing is really not well done.

Before, we understood and had some connection to the Dothraki that were following her - they were "her" Dothraki. *Her* khalasar. Like the Unsullied, or even her dragons - they were connected to her specifically.

All these mofos? Who the fuck are they? Do any of them even have names? Am I supposed to care about them at all?

We are supposed to cheer Daenarys taking her newfound Mongol horde off to rape and pillage Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 05:56:04 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 30, 2016, 10:22:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 30, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
The Dany-Dothraki thing is really not well done.

Before, we understood and had some connection to the Dothraki that were following her - they were "her" Dothraki. *Her* khalasar. Like the Unsullied, or even her dragons - they were connected to her specifically.

All these mofos? Who the fuck are they? Do any of them even have names? Am I supposed to care about them at all?

We are supposed to cheer Daenarys taking her newfound Mongol horde off to rape and pillage Westeros.

Indeed - and why should we suppose that they won't do exactly that?

How is Dany going to "save" Westeros, when the people she is leading are certainly going to be as bad or worse than anything Gregor Clegane can think up?

She has no history with these people, they have no personal allegiance to her. There is no reason to believe that they are going to do much of anything she says in regards to restraint or making them into something more than just a horde of barbarians bent on rape and pillage.

She had all of that with Drogo's khalasar of course - making them into something more and presumably better than what they were. I am not sure I understand the point of the story arc around her losing *her* Dothraki and replacing them with these guys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on May 31, 2016, 06:34:44 AM
Isn't that the point, though? This story is largely about subverting tropes - and it is tempting us into supporting Danny and that horde - until we see them in action and rally behind Tommen and the Lannisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:50:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 08:01:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:50:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.

Yeah, that was how she acted at first, and she has shown concern for the commoners, but the discourse to the Dothrakis is one of a warlord, a conqueror. It can be argued that that's the kind of thing she has to "sell" to them if she wants them to follow her, but it remains to be seen how she will act once she is in Westeros. I guess that the revolt against her by the Sons of the Harpy might have made her snap and just think "Screw Mereen, I'm on my way to bigger things". I'm curious to see how she will act once she's back with Tyrion, Varys and the others, she now has a big scary dragon to ride, she doesn't need to compromise anymore. If she decides to simply ride Drogon into the opposing cities and pour death from above it will mean that she's tired of ther bs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 08:01:34 AM
Yeah, that was how she acted at first, and she has shown concern for the commoners, but the discourse to the Dothrakis is one of a warlord, a conqueror. It can be argued that that's the kind of thing she has to "sell" to them if she wants them to follow her, but it remains to be seen how she will act once she is in Westeros. I guess that the revolt against her by the Sons of the Harpy might have made her snap and just think "Screw Mereen, I'm on my way to bigger things". I'm curious to see how she will act once she's back with Tyrion, Varys and the others, she now has a big scary dragon to ride, she doesn't need to compromise anymore. If she decides to simply ride Drogon into the opposing cities and pour death from above it will mean that she's tired of ther bs.

I agree that this could well be how her character develops, but I'd be surprised if that's what happens.   I think that you are correct in your surmise that she was simply selling the Dothraki on what they wanted to hear, and also that they are likely to get out of hand when in Westeros (because that gives a role for Jon Snow to play in helping her bring them to heel).  I don't think that she is going to snap, however, as we are getting too close to the end game for such a major wrench in the works.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2016, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 12:56:34 AM
So, what game is Margaery playing? I mean, I suppose her short term goal was "get myself out of prison" but in the long run? I am pretty sure she is not a true convert.

Power.  Keeping Cersei marginalized.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 31, 2016, 09:55:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2016, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 12:56:34 AM
So, what game is Margaery playing? I mean, I suppose her short term goal was "get myself out of prison" but in the long run? I am pretty sure she is not a true convert.

Power.  Keeping Cersei marginalized.

Good thinking. It's been a while so I forgot the rivalry between the two of them. But it's a tricky, and dangerous, game to play. Now she has an alliance of sorts with the cultish religion, an enmity with the ruthless Cersei. But also, Cersei is a bit stuck with her son the King being in the alliance along with Margery. This power play's twists and turns will be interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?
Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:15:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?
Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire ;)

I don't think Samwell will become a maester.  The show won't last long enough for that.  I suspect that he will find out some vital secret and rush back to the North long before he finishes training.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:16:12 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?
Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire ;)

I am a little worried we are going to get some temporal disconnect. Or rather, more of them, since we have already had some.

Martin's plan was always to have a gap in time to allow some of the characters to grow up a little, and presumably allow Sam to get his training. That is no longer in the plan, so I don't know how Sam is going to work.

It won't terrible surprise me if they just have Sam show up with a chain at some point, and it won't make any damn sense at all how it happened.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 31, 2016, 09:55:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2016, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 30, 2016, 12:56:34 AM
So, what game is Margaery playing? I mean, I suppose her short term goal was "get myself out of prison" but in the long run? I am pretty sure she is not a true convert.

Power.  Keeping Cersei marginalized.

Good thinking. It's been a while so I forgot the rivalry between the two of them. But it's a tricky, and dangerous, game to play. Now she has an alliance of sorts with the cultish religion, an enmity with the ruthless Cersei. But also, Cersei is a bit stuck with her son the King being in the alliance along with Margery. This power play's twists and turns will be interesting.

Yeah.  The struggle will be over who has Tommen's loyalties.  I rather suspect that Cersei will lose this battle, and take some step to reverse her loss that will lead, by mischance, to Tommen's death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:20:28 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 30, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
All these mofos? Who the fuck are they? Do any of them even have names? Am I supposed to care about them at all?
do we care about the unsullied?  Do they have names?  We know Grey Worm, but aside that?

they are cannon fodder, we ain't supposed to care about them.  It might just be that half of them will sink with their ship on their way to Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2016, 10:22:15 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:16:12 AM
It won't terrible surprise me if they just have Sam show up with a chain at some point, and it won't make any damn sense at all how it happened.

Course credit for his work at the Wall.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:22:28 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 05:56:04 AM
She had all of that with Drogo's khalasar of course - making them into something more and presumably better than what they were. I am not sure I understand the point of the story arc around her losing *her* Dothraki and replacing them with these guys.
They are her.  Not Drogo's.  Her's.
And she reminds them of that little fact with the dragon scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.
yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 10:24:03 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:15:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 30, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?
Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire ;)

I don't think Samwell will become a maester.  The show won't last long enough for that.  I suspect that he will find out some vital secret and rush back to the North long before he finishes training.

No way they are going to show us Sam's school years. In the books he meets Marwyn upon arrival and he tells him to get back to the Wall as soon as he's done in the Citadel while he goes to find Dany. I guess they'll skip that and have Sam either join Marwyn in their quest to meet Dany or go back to the Wall immediately.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.
yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

Yup, Jorah basically removed that idealism from her back at the beginning, when she was younger and asked him if people still cheered in secret about the return of the Targaryens, and he told her that line about smallfolk not caring about who rules them as long as they're ok.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:50:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.
No, not really.  In both books and shows, it's about her rule.  She is the legitimate heir, the others are usurpers.  She believes she is right for the people, just as Louis XVI thought France could not survive without him.
Just because slavery is abolished does not mean she cares about the commoners.  It's unlikely there would be anything but a renewed feodal system with minor adjustements in Westeros following her take on power.  And her arrival will certainly intensify the current civil war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:28:42 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.
yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

They don't care because the people who rule them don't care about them - that has been the consistent theme in the books, and the contrast of that with those who presumably WOULD care is driving much of the narrative.

The difference between the Joffries (actively malevolent) and the Roberts (actively indifferent) and presumably the "good guys" (Ned, Rob, even Stannis or Renly, and presumably Dany) is a key message of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:28:42 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.
yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

They don't care because the people who rule them don't care about them - that has been the consistent theme in the books, and the contrast of that with those who presumably WOULD care is driving much of the narrative.

The difference between the Joffries (actively malevolent) and the Roberts (actively indifferent) and presumably the "good guys" (Ned, Rob, even Stannis or Renly, and presumably Dany) is a key message of the show.
In the first episode, we see Ned executing presumed deserters from the Wall.  No questions asked, they deserted, they die.  Doesn't matter what they've seen, why they went running from their post despite years of loyal service, they are dead.

Rob Stark betrayed his word to Walder Frey and had one of his most loyal servant executed because he killed a Lannister prisoner of war, an ennemy.

I don't think there are any really good guys in this show, just less slightly worst.  A stable boy is a stable boy.  There is no social ascension.  Yes, Dany makes things differently on her side of the world.  She starts with nothing and she grows into something.  She builds an empire, but it's unclear how social relations work in there.  Obviously, there is nobility, but she rules one city, not one empire.  How could she convince anyone to join her by telling them "btw, once we're done, your castle, your priviledges, they all go away to the people you will now serve" ?


It's in the 2nd book, I think, when Arya meets the rebels who tells her that Wolf of Lion, it's all the same to them.  Presumably, for these folks, any lord is a lord and they are all treated unfairly.  It may not be how the nobles see themselves, but it's how the common folks see it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2016, 10:42:07 AM
Dany's claim to be a "good guy" is her liberation of the slaves, but she doesn't have the patience for governance.  The show has made that clear with Tyrion coming in to try to fix things up with the kind of messy politics Dany sees herself as above.  Martin is about subversion of trope - the real "good guys" in his narratives are misfits and outsiders.  Dany may mean well in her own mind and even intend good (Jaime Lannister could and does say the same), but the reality is everything she achieved has been at the point of the sword or by literally burning up those who would oppose her. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:49:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:50:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.
No, not really.  In both books and shows, it's about her rule.  She is the legitimate heir, the others are usurpers.  She believes she is right for the people, just as Louis XVI thought France could not survive without him.

No, not really.  She is, as Jorah Mormont says, a unique claimant to the throne: ""You have a good claim: a title, a birthright. But you have something more than that: you may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would be not only respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule."  She doesn't even desire to rule Westeros until she hears of King Robert's death and the war that has ensued.

QuoteJust because slavery is abolished does not mean she cares about the commoners.  It's unlikely there would be anything but a renewed feodal system with minor adjustements in Westeros following her take on power.  And her arrival will certainly intensify the current civil war.

Of course there will be a feudal system.  The entire basis of society in Westeros is feudal.  That doesn't mean that there cannot be more protections for the commoners.  Abolishing slavery shows that she does care about the commons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:53:37 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 31, 2016, 10:42:07 AM
Dany's claim to be a "good guy" is her liberation of the slaves, but she doesn't have the patience for governance.  The show has made that clear with Tyrion coming in to try to fix things up with the kind of messy politics Dany sees herself as above.  Martin is about subversion of trope - the real "good guys" in his narratives are misfits and outsiders.  Dany may mean well in her own mind and even intend good (Jaime Lannister could and does say the same), but the reality is everything she achieved has been at the point of the sword or by literally burning up those who would oppose her.

I don't disagree with this, though I think that one of the elements of the show has been the transformation of Dany from a passive tool of her brother's ambition to a (not yet skilled) ruler in her own right.  Her path has been remarkably similar to Sansa's.  Whether or not she allows her new-found power to go to her head is the question.  The same question applies to Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 31, 2016, 11:08:18 AM
Who does dany have following her? Seems to be the entire city... but.... really? There's the supplies for that?

Dothraki are red shirts for sure. Would be fun to see them against a westeros army. Those little ceremonial knives against armoured knights and castles.... they won't win even with westeros weakened.

Wonder if we ever will see oldtown. And what will become of the reach-first on the Dornish invasions hit list?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:28:42 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.
yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

They don't care because the people who rule them don't care about them - that has been the consistent theme in the books, and the contrast of that with those who presumably WOULD care is driving much of the narrative.

The difference between the Joffries (actively malevolent) and the Roberts (actively indifferent) and presumably the "good guys" (Ned, Rob, even Stannis or Renly, and presumably Dany) is a key message of the show.
In the first episode, we see Ned executing presumed deserters from the Wall.  No questions asked, they deserted, they die.  Doesn't matter what they've seen, why they went running from their post despite years of loyal service, they are dead.

So? That isn't evil, it is just harsh. In the context of their world, that is justice.

There is a huge difference between that and the Lannister soldiers, for example, simply stringing up suspected collaborators.

It is trivial, and lazy, the note that since not everyone is perfectly good, they are all equally evil. Also, any world like that would be really, really boring.
Quote

Rob Stark betrayed his word to Walder Frey and had one of his most loyal servant executed because he killed a Lannister prisoner of war, an ennemy.

So? What does that have to do with anything?

My point doesn't rely on the "good guys" being perfect, it just relies on them being relatively better than the bad guys.
Quote

I don't think there are any really good guys in this show, just less slightly worst.  A stable boy is a stable boy.  There is no social ascension.  Yes, Dany makes things differently on her side of the world.  She starts with nothing and she grows into something.  She builds an empire, but it's unclear how social relations work in there.  Obviously, there is nobility, but she rules one city, not one empire.  How could she convince anyone to join her by telling them "btw, once we're done, your castle, your priviledges, they all go away to the people you will now serve" ?


It's in the 2nd book, I think, when Arya meets the rebels who tells her that Wolf of Lion, it's all the same to them.  Presumably, for these folks, any lord is a lord and they are all treated unfairly.  It may not be how the nobles see themselves, but it's how the common folks see it.

Indeed. But that is my point - that there is in fact a difference. Once war starts, everyone suffers, and both sides have their monsters. Certainly the North has their Bolton's for example. War is a blunt tool, and even the best people are doing something horrific.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter who wins though. It does mean that the people in the area the war is being fought in are fucked either way.

If you are some kid in Hiroshima, the motives of the people dropping the nuke is largely irrelevant to *you*. That doesn't mean their motives aren't relevant in the broader scheme of things though.

The people in Westeros largely don't care who rules them because the options they have been presented are all terrible. Supposedly, it doesn't HAVE to be that way though.

The interesting part of the story is how martin makes it seem that being good doesn't matter, but rather that being good doesn't actually make you more likely to succeed. That the indifferent and evil tend to win out - that is what we've come to expect from our stories. That somehow justice will triumph.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:11:38 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:49:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:50:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.
No, not really.  In both books and shows, it's about her rule.  She is the legitimate heir, the others are usurpers.  She believes she is right for the people, just as Louis XVI thought France could not survive without him.

No, not really.  She is, as Jorah Mormont says, a unique claimant to the throne: ""You have a good claim: a title, a birthright. But you have something more than that: you may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would be not only respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule."  She doesn't even desire to rule Westeros until she hears of King Robert's death and the war that has ensued.

And this theme recurs several times. It is the argument for Renly, for example. Yeah, his brother has the better claim, but nobody likes him and he would make a bad king, while everyone actually like Renly, and he seems like a pretty good guy. Who knows if he really would be, of course.

There is no doubt that there is a theme here, of "good" potential rulers as opposed to either terrible ones or indifferent ones. Competency is another measure entirely, where we have examples of good and incompetent (maybe Rob, Tommen, Daeny at times), good and competent (Daeny at other times, Rob when it comes to leadership and war, Ned?) and evil and competent (Tywin), evil and incompetent (Joffrey), indifferent and incompetent (Robert), etc., etc.

But the message is hardly that the good versus evil versus indifferent part doesn't exist. In fact, I would argue that the message is exactly the opposite. That despite their flaws and shades of grey, there is a difference between Joffrey and Daeny, between Tywin and Ned. They are not all the same at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 12:25:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:11:38 PM
And this theme recurs several times. It is the argument for Renly, for example. Yeah, his brother has the better claim, but nobody likes him and he would make a bad king, while everyone actually like Renly, and he seems like a pretty good guy. Who knows if he really would be, of course.

There is no doubt that there is a theme here, of "good" potential rulers as opposed to either terrible ones or indifferent ones. Competency is another measure entirely, where we have examples of good and incompetent (maybe Rob, Tommen, Daeny at times), good and competent (Daeny at other times, Rob when it comes to leadership and war, Ned?) and evil and competent (Tywin), evil and incompetent (Joffrey), indifferent and incompetent (Robert), etc., etc.

But the message is hardly that the good versus evil versus indifferent part doesn't exist. In fact, I would argue that the message is exactly the opposite. That despite their flaws and shades of grey, there is a difference between Joffrey and Daeny, between Tywin and Ned. They are not all the same at all.

I quite agree.  The difference in Martin's world is, as you say, that being good doesn't present one with an advantage; quite the opposite, in fact.  The show is even worse than the books in this regard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 10:49:38 AM
No, not really.  She is, as Jorah Mormont says, a unique claimant to the throne: ""You have a good claim: a title, a birthright. But you have something more than that: you may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would be not only respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule."  She doesn't even desire to rule Westeros until she hears of King Robert's death and the war that has ensued.
Duh, it was her brother's place to rule.  Her role was to get married and secure an alliance for her brother.  Of course she did not want to rule.
King Robert's death appears about the time her brother is killed, give or take a few weeks for the news to reach her.

Having a gentle heart and having those close to you is one thing, getting loved for it is another.  I'm certain Marie-Antoinette had a gentle heart too.  But she wasn't loved for it.

Quote
Of course there will be a feudal system.  The entire basis of society in Westeros is feudal.  That doesn't mean that there cannot be more protections for the commoners.  Abolishing slavery shows that she does care about the commons.
slavery has been abolished in Westeros.  Nobody in Westeros is proposing re-establishement of the practice.  Therefore, should we assume they care about the commoners?  I'm not entirely convinced...  :yeahright:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 12:43:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 31, 2016, 11:08:18 AM
Dothraki are red shirts for sure. Would be fun to see them against a westeros army. Those little ceremonial knives against armoured knights and castles.... they won't win even with westeros weakened.
Dothraki alone, likely not, though it really depends on their numbers.  Mongols had mounted archers and were very effective against armored armies, as the Romans discovered before their descendants.
I don't think the Dothrakis use archers, but I haven't really paid attention either.

either way, this isn't the Dothraki alone, she has an army of disciplined unsullied at her disposal.   This infantry, plus thousands of Dothraki, plus local support (presumably from Dorne in the books, that remains to be seen) could be enough to face a fractured Westeros.  Especially if the Lannisters and Tyrell are fractured and warring in the North.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 12:53:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
There is a huge difference between that and the Lannister soldiers, for example, simply stringing up suspected collaborators.
It is hinted at that the Boltons, while still acting under Rob Stark's orders were kinda doing the same.

QuoteAlso, any world like that would be really, really boring.
duh, of course, that's why Game of Thrones is so good and so popular :)
Quote

My point doesn't rely on the "good guys" being perfect, it just relies on them being relatively better than the bad guys.
From the point of view of a peasant, that does not change much, in times of peace.  How were Lannisters commoners treated differently in Castlerock than Winterfell?


Quote
If you are some kid in Hiroshima, the motives of the people dropping the nuke is largely irrelevant to *you*. That doesn't mean their motives aren't relevant in the broader scheme of things though.
and I agree with that wholeheartedly, but I thought we were discussing things from the commoners' point of view :confused:

Quote
The people in Westeros largely don't care who rules them because the options they have been presented are all terrible. Supposedly, it doesn't HAVE to be that way though.
But they don't really know if that new ruler (Dany) will be good to them.  All they know of the Targaryen is the mad king who used to burn everybody and wanted to destroy King's Landing rather than let it fall to Baratheon.

If you are a peasant, barely literate, caught between warring factions, will you welcome with open heart another ruler from a strange land who claims to be descended from a king obsessed with fire?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 12:53:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
Duh, it was her brother's place to rule.  Her role was to get married and secure an alliance for her brother.  Of course she did not want to rule.
King Robert's death appears about the time her brother is killed, give or take a few weeks for the news to reach her.

Okay, you've conceded that point.

QuoteHaving a gentle heart and having those close to you is one thing, getting loved for it is another.  I'm certain Marie-Antoinette had a gentle heart too.  But she wasn't loved for it.

Non-sequitur. 

Quoteslavery has been abolished in Westeros.  Nobody in Westeros is proposing re-establishement of the practice.  Therefore, should we assume they care about the commoners?  I'm not entirely convinced...  :yeahright:

:yeahright:  Slavery is forbidden by the Faith.  The minsters of the Faith are often shown caring about the commoners, so, yeah, you might not be convinced, but the evidence is pretty convincing to anyone not determined to be contrary.

So, to sum up:  Dany didn't plan to exercise her right to the throne until the War of the Five Kings started, and abolition of slavery is an indication that she cares about the commoners.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 12:53:37 PM
So, to sum up:  Dany didn't plan to exercise her right to the throne until the War of the Five Kings started, and abolition of slavery is an indication that she cares about the commoners.
And the War of the Five Kings started about the time her brother died.  Yeah, one of those freak coincidence, I guess...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
And the War of the Five Kings started about the time her brother died.  Yeah, one of those freak coincidence, I guess...

I don't know what that has to do with anything. Dany doesn't find out about the war until she arrives in Qarth months after Viserys's death.  That's when she decides to return to Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 02:38:32 PM
QuoteViserys is infuriated at how Daenerys has won the love of the Dothraki. Ser Jorah manages to stop Viserys as he tries to steal her dragon eggs to buy his own army. Viserys arrives drunk at the feast and draws his sword, demanding that Khal Drogo pay the agreed price for Dany by providing troops for the invasion of Westeros; he wants his crown or he will take Daenerys back. When he threatens Daenerys and her unborn child, Drogo has Viserys executed by pouring molten gold over his head. Daenerys notes that Viserys was not a true dragon, as fire cannot kill a dragon.[12]
Dany-jorah-market

Daenerys and Jorah at the market in Vaes Dothrak.
Dany-heart

Daenerys eats the heart of a stallion.

Daenerys tries to convince Drogo to invade so their son might claim the Iron Throne, but the Dothraki do not trust ships and water their horses cannot drink. Now that Viserys is dead, Drogo does not feel inclined to honor the bargain. A wineseller attempts to poison Daenerys to fulfill Robert's orders. She is rescued by Ser Jorah and Rakharo. Following the assassination attempt, Drogo reverses his decision and swears that he will lead his forces across the Narrow Sea and seize the Seven Kingdoms in blood and fire
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Daenerys_Targaryen (http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Daenerys_Targaryen)

So, Dany did want to go to Westeros.  First, to support her brother, than for her and eventually her son to rule over it.
Withouth an army and navy however, it was impossible to cross the sea and challenge Robert.  When she learns of Robert's death, she thinks of entering into a marriage of convenience to get her ships, a pre-requisite to anything that involves entering Westeros.  Her mind on returning to Westeros has been pretty much done on the subject since day one.  She just thought it was the male's duty to rule and her to follow, until she found herself with no brother, no husband and no son.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 06:54:21 PM
Next episode is called "Broken man".  And it is said that Jaime confronts a hero.  I'm betting on the return of the Hound.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:08:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 02:38:32 PM
So, Dany did want to go to Westeros.  First, to support her brother, than for her and eventually her son to rule over it.
Withouth an army and navy however, it was impossible to cross the sea and challenge Robert.  When she learns of Robert's death, she thinks of entering into a marriage of convenience to get her ships, a pre-requisite to anything that involves entering Westeros.  Her mind on returning to Westeros has been pretty much done on the subject since day one.  She just thought it was the male's duty to rule and her to follow, until she found herself with no brother, no husband and no son.

She wanted to go to Westeros, but not to rule it.  She abandons even the idea of returning to Westeros after her husband and baby die.  Until Qarth, when she learns about the war, and decides to throw her own hat in the ring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 07:10:33 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 06:54:21 PM
Next episode is called "Broken man".  And it is said that Jaime confronts a hero.  I'm betting on the return of the Hound.

The trailer shows him confronting the Blackfish. So not the Hound.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 31, 2016, 07:21:12 PM
It's entirely possible the Hound returns next episode, however.  I would say even likely. The title episode is almost certainly a reference to Septon Meribald from the books, and I think the Hound will be hanging with him if we see them.

GET HYPE
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 31, 2016, 09:10:52 PM
Stoneheart, stoneheart!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 31, 2016, 09:19:14 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 31, 2016, 09:10:52 PM
Stoneheart, stoneheart!

:yes:  That which is hype may never die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 31, 2016, 10:08:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 07:08:43 PM
She wanted to go to Westeros, but not to rule it.
She wasn't heir.

Quote
She abandons even the idea of returning to Westeros after her husband and baby die.
She orders Mirri Maz Duur bound to Drogo's funeral pyre and places the three dragon eggs around his corpse, then announces to Drogo's remaining followers that she is freeing those who were enslaved, and will lead them all to glory if they chose to follow her. She offers to Aggo, Jhogo and Rakharo the traditional gifts of a khal to his bloodriders; each refuse, saying that to serve as bloodrider to a woman would shame them, but Daenerys ignores their objections. Ser Jorah accepts her offer, and she names him the first of her Queensguard.

Again, at this point, she has no army and no navy.  But she considers herself a queen and she promises great things to her followers, just like she did in last week's episode.
This implies intent, but lack of means.

If we go a little further, before she learns of Robert's death, we got this:
QuoteShe and the remains of Drogo's khalasar are stranded in a desolate area known as the Red Waste. They dare not turn toward the Dothraki Sea, the cities of Slaver's Bay, or even Lhazar, for the group would have made easy prey for any Dothraki khalasar they encountered. Dany chooses instead to follow a red comet that had appeared in the sky following the hatching of her dragons; although the Dothraki view the comet as a foreboding omen, Dany believes that it heralds her own rise to power.
So, she believes a comet heralds her own rise to power, but she has no intention to rule.  She names her closest follower first of the Queensguard, but she has no intent to become a queen.  Very curious behavior.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenerys_Targaryen

QuoteUntil Qarth, when she learns about the war, and decides to throw her own hat in the ring.
Nope, way before that.  But in Qarth, she hopes to have the means of her ambitions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 02:47:26 PM
My alternate Arya theory is that the long lost dancing master jumps out from behind a curtain and duels the shit out of everyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 01, 2016, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 02:47:26 PM
My alternate Arya theory is that the long lost dancing master jumps out from behind a curtain and duels the shit out of everyone.
There is a theory that this man is the same as Jaqen H'ghar.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 03:20:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 01, 2016, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 02:47:26 PM
My alternate Arya theory is that the long lost dancing master jumps out from behind a curtain and duels the shit out of everyone.
There is a theory that this man is the same as Jaqen H'ghar.

And it's just as dumb as a hundred other theories out there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2016, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 01, 2016, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 02:47:26 PM
My alternate Arya theory is that the long lost dancing master jumps out from behind a curtain and duels the shit out of everyone.
There is a theory that this man is the same as Jaqen H'ghar.

They are all Yi.  It is known.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 01, 2016, 03:53:39 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 03:20:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 01, 2016, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 02:47:26 PM
My alternate Arya theory is that the long lost dancing master jumps out from behind a curtain and duels the shit out of everyone.
There is a theory that this man is the same as Jaqen H'ghar.

And it's just as dumb as a hundred other theories out there.
Maybe.  But with a dude that can change his appearance at will, who knows?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 04:02:06 PM
Yes, I'm sure Syrio got himself thrown into a cart and just knew someone would save him from certain death inside of it, solely so he could watch over Arya, who he knew would be coming along any moment now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 01, 2016, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 04:02:06 PM
Yes, I'm sure Syrio got himself thrown into a cart and just knew someone would save him from certain death inside of it, solely so he could watch over Arya, who he knew would be coming along any moment now.
He could have tried to escape later, even had time to change his identity, but still got caught in King's Landing for something else.

Not really important anyway, one day, we'll see if Yi's theory is the right one or not :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2016, 04:56:01 PM
I believe it has been confirmed at some point that Syrio is definitely dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2016, 04:56:01 PM
I believe it has been confirmed at some point that Syrio is definitely dead.

I don't remember this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 01, 2016, 05:07:06 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2016, 04:56:01 PM
I believe it has been confirmed at some point that Syrio is definitely dead.

I don't remember this.

Not in the show or in the books but in some interview.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 05:08:35 PM
You watch the nerds every week, don't you? :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 01, 2016, 10:31:14 PM
Nah, I remember that. I believe it was at a book signing event by GRRM.

He's dead, folks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 01, 2016, 11:30:22 PM
No, that isn't true.

He said something like Syrio was disarmed in an impossible situation against a member of the kingsguard. What do you think happened?

and people interpret this as Syrio is dead while in truth he is alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 11:35:42 PM
Also, the scriptwriters don't give a shit what RRRR wrote, why should they give a shit what he says?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 11:56:26 PM
You want to put some money down on it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2016, 12:13:07 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 11:56:26 PM
You want to put some money down on it?

I'll put a buck down at 100/1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 02, 2016, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 05:08:35 PM
You watch the nerds every week, don't you? :lol:

Nope, only the clips they put up in youtube.  :P Then again there's tons and tons of material about the whole thing out there, and I've been following it for years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 02, 2016, 06:38:51 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 01, 2016, 10:31:14 PM
Nah, I remember that. I believe it was at a book signing event by GRRM.

He's dead, folks.
Like Jon Snow dead? :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2016, 10:03:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2016, 12:13:07 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 11:56:26 PM
You want to put some money down on it?

I'll put a buck down at 100/1.

Suckers bet.
I just looked at your pending wagers.  You would've made a good hedge fund manager.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 02, 2016, 02:02:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 31, 2016, 07:21:12 PM
It's entirely possible the Hound returns next episode, however.  I would say even likely. The title episode is almost certainly a reference to Septon Meribald from the books, and I think the Hound will be hanging with him if we see them.

GET HYPE
I would imagine that he's got to be re-introduced soon.  I'm presuming The Hound will be the Faith's fighter in Cercei's trial by combat, giving him a chance to get finally fight and possibly kill his brother.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 02, 2016, 04:30:02 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 02, 2016, 02:02:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 31, 2016, 07:21:12 PM
It's entirely possible the Hound returns next episode, however.  I would say even likely. The title episode is almost certainly a reference to Septon Meribald from the books, and I think the Hound will be hanging with him if we see them.

GET HYPE
I would imagine that he's got to be re-introduced soon.  I'm presuming The Hound will be the Faith's fighter in Cercei's trial by combat, giving him a chance to get finally fight and possibly kill his brother.

Next episode is named "The Broken Man", I'd say that it's a sign about the reintroduction of The Hound.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 02, 2016, 04:37:21 PM
Broken Man can refer to half the cast...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2016, 04:50:31 PM
Quote"Ser? My lady?" said Podrick. "Is a broken man an outlaw?"

"More or less," Brienne answered.

Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

"Then they get a taste of battle.

"For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe.

"They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world...

"And the man breaks.

"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them...but he should pity them as well."

When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"

"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."

"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.

"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 02, 2016, 10:41:58 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2016, 04:02:06 PM
Yes, I'm sure Syrio got himself thrown into a cart and just knew someone would save him from certain death inside of it, solely so he could watch over Arya, who he knew would be coming along any moment now.

What is the plausible theory for how a Faceless Man was captured like a common criminal?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 02, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Syrio flipped ahead in the books and figured out where Arya was going to be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 03, 2016, 09:37:09 AM
I like the argument that goes "If you can't imagine a plausible scenario by which a faceless man ends up in jail ()and why is that even hard to do?), then it is reasonable to assume that he is there on purpose, and just randomly counting on Arya showing up even though there is no reason for him to think she would ever run into him there...and would in fact be dead if she did not, and likely dead even if she did..."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 03, 2016, 07:38:25 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 02, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Syrio flipped ahead in the books and figured out where Arya was going to be.

I dont think that is a very plausible theory for how a Faceless Man was captured like a common criminal.

You know, the guy that can kill anyone without getting caught - all a girl needs to do is speak a name.

It may be that he isnt the fencing master.   But what does fandom say about how the Faceless Man came to be locked in the cage?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 05, 2016, 11:04:06 PM
RiP Ian McShane :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 05, 2016, 11:37:38 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 05, 2016, 11:04:06 PM
RiP Ian McShane :(

That was quick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 05, 2016, 11:39:25 PM
Such a great actor, and we only got him for one episode  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Sort of an uninteresting episode.  I did enjoy the dramatic unveiling of the armed might of Bear Island though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 05, 2016, 11:50:28 PM
What's the deal with Arya?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 05, 2016, 11:55:49 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 05, 2016, 11:50:28 PM
What's the deal with Arya?

Physically, I do not understand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2016, 12:14:24 AM
Short of magical healing, some sort of switcheroo (the Waif is really Arya!11zomg!), or plot armor, I don't see how Arya survives those wounds.  But I know she will.  It will be interesting to see how they pull that off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
Not much happened. Looking forward to The Hound losing it.

I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:31:26 AM
If Olly could not kill Jon, the Waif is not going to kill Arya. The lady she was supposed to kill is actually a Red Priestess and saves her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2016, 12:32:07 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

I don't see any options besides Littlefinger.

Unless it was direct to little Duke Weenie.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2016, 12:42:16 AM
Loved Blackfish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 06, 2016, 01:21:20 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 06, 2016, 12:32:07 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

I don't see any options besides Littlefinger.

Unless it was direct to little Duke Weenie.  :hmm:

It's either Littlefinger or White Harbor, but most probably Littlefinger.

How does Arya, the cold blooded killer, the survivor, let anyone get that close to her when she knows face-changing assassins are after her?

That is some shitty writing. It'll be more shitty writing when she survives next week, even though she was stabbed multiple times in the gut and then swam in feces infested canal water.

Sepsis anyone?

Her whole Braavos story is crap. I blame GRRM mostly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 06, 2016, 01:24:51 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 06, 2016, 01:21:20 AMI blame GRRM mostly.

well, yeah. imo, he fucked up big by backing out of his time jump. the story really relied on it despite his doubts that it could work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2016, 01:34:33 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2016, 12:14:24 AM
Short of magical healing, some sort of switcheroo (the Waif is really Arya!11zomg!), or plot armor, I don't see how Arya survives those wounds.  But I know she will.  It will be interesting to see how they pull that off.

Arya's entire behaviour in the episode was very off (her entire conversation with the captain was "heeeeey, look at me everybody!!!") so I am pretty sure we are not supposed to take it on its face value - any more than we are supposed to think Margaery is actually devout now.

One speculation I have seen is that it was Jaqen pretending to be Arya to get himself stabbed by the Waif (who would not let go otherwise).

Alternatively it could have been Arya thinking she could survive an encounter with the Waif somehow so allowing herself to be stabbed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 06, 2016, 01:36:46 AM
also didn't have needle, but I'm undecided on the not-arya theory
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2016, 01:45:47 AM
Maybe she was hurt but not as badly as she looked? Her actor friends may have given her some of their fake blood or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 06, 2016, 03:57:00 AM
I don't find a lot of these Arya theories very convincing.

Some of the theories I've seen floating around:

1) In that scene, Arya is actually the Waif in disguise and she is actually attacked by Arya. The problem I have with this is how would Arya have gotten the face and Arya has never been shown to have enough skill to overpower the Waif.

2) Armor and pigs blood. Okay. I mean this assumes Arya knew where she'd be stabbed and the Waif doesn't know the difference between stabbing flesh and armor.

3) Most likely to me: Arya was really attacked and wounded, but will lead the Waif into a trap where she'll overcome her using her wits instead of pure skill.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 06, 2016, 04:57:56 AM
Arya took a sip of the water at the House of the Many Faced God and it cured her blindness...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 06, 2016, 05:11:14 AM
Thank you for contributing late to 4 episodes ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 06, 2016, 10:43:38 AM
Many reviewers are calling Lord Glover a "racist" for refusing to fight alongside wildlings.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Amazing that sansa and Jon could travel the north so easily.
But not white harbour. The place they would have the easiest time getting to
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 06, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Amazing that sansa and Jon could travel the north so easily.
But not white harbour. The place they would have the easiest time getting to

White Harbour would actually be one of the more difficult places for them to get to, as they'd have to pass right by Winterfell. All the places they went to were in the north of the North, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 06, 2016, 12:06:17 PM
Great character development in that episode. Thought it was one of the best this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 06, 2016, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Amazing that sansa and Jon could travel the north so easily.
But not white harbour. The place they would have the easiest time getting to

White Harbour would actually be one of the more difficult places for them to get to, as they'd have to pass right by Winterfell. All the places they went to were in the north of the North, I think.

:yes:

They've been skirting the coastline and the areas west of Winterfell/The Dreadfort.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 06, 2016, 12:10:13 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Amazing that sansa and Jon could travel the north so easily.
But not white harbour. The place they would have the easiest time getting to

White Harbour would actually be one of the more difficult places for them to get to, as they'd have to pass right by Winterfell. All the places they went to were in the north of the North, I think.
White Harbour is on the east coast where they have ships.
Bear Island is off the west coast where they have no port and no ships.
Deepwood Motte is a little ways inland (I thought much more than it is) and also on the west coast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 06, 2016, 12:21:45 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2016, 12:10:13 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 06, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Amazing that sansa and Jon could travel the north so easily.
But not white harbour. The place they would have the easiest time getting to

White Harbour would actually be one of the more difficult places for them to get to, as they'd have to pass right by Winterfell. All the places they went to were in the north of the North, I think.
White Harbour is on the east coast where they have ships.
Bear Island is off the west coast where they have no port and no ships.
Deepwood Motte is a little ways inland (I thought much more than it is) and also on the west coast.

Point though is that Jon/Sansa are presumably in the north.  BI and DM are also in the north, white harbor is the south.  Also  Karhold and the Dreadfort are to the east of Winterfell so one would expect Jon/Sana to focus on the northwest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 06, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

Brienne and/or Blackfish
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 06, 2016, 07:19:34 PM
Going crazy theory that I read is that arya and the waif have a fight club thing going on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 12:22:26 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on June 06, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

Brienne and/or Blackfish

:lol:

She 100% wrote to Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 07, 2016, 12:58:57 AM
A lot of theories around about some Jaquen / arya face swap.
I would just go with the simpler theory that arya has a plan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 07, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 12:22:26 AM

She 100% wrote to Littlefinger.



Why does she keep to give that weasel a hold over her?  And all behind John's back of course.  <_<



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 06:03:27 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 07, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 12:22:26 AM

She 100% wrote to Littlefinger.



Why does she keep to give that weasel a hold over her?  And all behind John's back of course.  <_<



G.

Who is John?  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 07, 2016, 06:04:37 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 07, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 12:22:26 AM

She 100% wrote to Littlefinger.



Why does she keep to give that weasel a hold over her?  And all behind John's back of course.  <_<



G.

It's actually a pretty reasonable plot turns, the kind of which we need more. I mean, it was made pretty clear they are too weak to take on Ramsey Boring Villain Bolton on their own, and it would be stupid not to employ the heavy knights of the Vale, the ones which Jon doesn't even know about being next door.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 06:11:47 AM
Plus, Sansa doesn't have the full knowledge of the viewer when it comes to Littlefinger - she is pissed off at him for the whole Ramsay thing but she had no reason to mistrust him for anything she knows he had done before that.

I guess the only question is why she didn't talk to Jon and Davos about it - but I guess she both mistrusts them (especially Davos - we know he is a great guy but she has absolutely no reason to trust him) and thinks they would probably try to dissuade her from the decision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2016, 06:59:59 AM
It makes perfect sense for Sansa to beg Littlefinger for help, she knows they're in a weak position and that their forces are too small, so even if she dislikes him, she still needs his support.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 07:56:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 07, 2016, 12:58:57 AM
A lot of theories around about some Jaquen / arya face swap.
I would just go with the simpler theory that arya has a plan.

That would make no sense - Arya isn't dead, so her face is not available for swapping.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on June 07, 2016, 08:24:56 AM
When that Faceless Man drank poison and died in front of Arya, she kept pulling faces off of the body until she got to her own.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 07, 2016, 09:28:25 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on June 06, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

Brienne and/or Blackfish
When Jon decided to march on Winterfell, they were arguing about someone else they needed to contact, Sansa wanted to contact them, Jon did not.  I think Sansa is writing to these people.

Also, in the books, there is someone who remains allies with the Stark, he feigns imprisoning the onion knight and later serves the Frey's sons to the old man in some blood pie.  Who was he?  Was he mentionned in the tv show?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 07, 2016, 09:28:25 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on June 06, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

Brienne and/or Blackfish
When Jon decided to march on Winterfell, they were arguing about someone else they needed to contact, Sansa wanted to contact them, Jon did not.  I think Sansa is writing to these people.

Also, in the books, there is someone who remains allies with the Stark, he feigns imprisoning the onion knight and later serves the Frey's sons to the old man in some blood pie.  Who was he?  Was he mentionned in the tv show?

Lord Wyman Manderly of White Harbor I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 07, 2016, 10:03:11 AM
People with way too much time in their hands already found out that the letter is adressed at Littlefinger.

Edit: Link: http://imgur.com/a/p2mfe (http://imgur.com/a/p2mfe)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 07, 2016, 10:03:20 AM
Here is image analysis of what Sansa's letter said in this week's Game of Thrones:

http://www.gamesradar.com/someones-worked-out-what-sansas-letter-said-in-this-weeks-game-of-thrones-spoilers/ (http://www.gamesradar.com/someones-worked-out-what-sansas-letter-said-in-this-weeks-game-of-thrones-spoilers/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 07, 2016, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 09:32:50 AM
Lord Wyman Manderly of White Harbor I think.
Yeah that's him, I remember now.  And in the books, he sends Davos to repatriate Rickon Stark from wherever he is at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 07, 2016, 12:05:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 06:03:27 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 07, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 12:22:26 AM

She 100% wrote to Littlefinger.



Why does she keep to give that weasel a hold over her?  And all behind John's back of course.  <_<



G.

Who is John?  :huh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 07, 2016, 02:00:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 12:22:26 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on June 06, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 06, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
I wonder who Sansa wrote to. Littlefinger? Or some of the other houses? Will be a ex machina appearance during the battle...

Brienne and/or Blackfish

:lol:

She 100% wrote to Littlefinger.

In the preview for the next episode, the Blackfish receives a letter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 07, 2016, 02:19:21 PM
That's the letter Brienne was given by Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2016, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

Really? The Blackfish is going to defeat a Lannister field army commanded by Jaime the Golden hand and Bronn of the Blackwater?

Fat chance. Jaime Lannister was a retard when he had two hands, but now he is thinking with head, not his ego.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2016, 03:14:02 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on June 07, 2016, 08:24:56 AM
When that Faceless Man drank poison and died in front of Arya, she kept pulling faces off of the body until she got to her own.

Yeah. What was that all about. I think someone made a mistake with thw script.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 03:25:30 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2016, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

Really? The Blackfish is going to defeat a Lannister field army commanded by Jaime the Golden hand and Bronn of the Blackwater?

Fat chance. Jaime Lannister was a retard when he had two hands, but now he is thinking with head, not his ego.

Nope, I suspect the Blackfish will end up making a deal with Jaime to be let go...

I suspect that in fact at some point Jaime is going to figure out what the fuck is actually going on, and realizes that there are bigger issues at stake...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 07, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 03:25:30 PM
Nope, I suspect the Kingfish will end up making a deal with Jaime to be let go...

In return for the black vote on road building and two seats on the Louisiana Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 07, 2016, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 07, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
In return for the black vote on road building and two seats on the Louisiana Supreme Court.

:lol: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 07, 2016, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 03:25:30 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2016, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

Really? The Blackfish is going to defeat a Lannister field army commanded by Jaime the Golden hand and Bronn of the Blackwater?

Fat chance. Jaime Lannister was a retard when he had two hands, but now he is thinking with head, not his ego.

Nope, I suspect the Blackfish will end up making a deal with Jaime to be let go...

I suspect that in fact at some point Jaime is going to figure out what the fuck is actually going on, and realizes that there are bigger issues at stake...
there's still Dorne.  The Sand Snakes killed their lord because they wanted immediate war with the Lannisters.  I'm still expecting them to attack any time this season.  Or Cersei doing something stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 07, 2016, 04:11:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 03:25:30 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2016, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

Really? The Blackfish is going to defeat a Lannister field army commanded by Jaime the Golden hand and Bronn of the Blackwater?

Fat chance. Jaime Lannister was a retard when he had two hands, but now he is thinking with head, not his ego.

Nope, I suspect the Blackfish will end up making a deal with Jaime to be let go...

I suspect that in fact at some point Jaime is going to figure out what the fuck is actually going on, and realizes that there are bigger issues at stake...

Yeah no reason for Jaime to have any particular love for Ramsey Bolton or the Boltons in general.  And while having Sansa Stark running around the north with an army may not be a preferred Lannister scenario, it should soon be apparent that anyone up north is going to have their hand's full with other concerns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2016, 07:18:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

It's almost-certainly going to be Littlefinger and the army from the Vale that saves the day.  Hence the secretive nature of Sansa's letter-writing.  The Blackfish might well help out in the North, but his small force in Riverrun doesn't seem like it's going to be all the decisive--unless they participate in some retaliatory raids against the Freys later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 07, 2016, 07:21:30 PM
Blackfish's Riverrun force is supposed to be the cobbled together remnants of the the defeated Riverlands army.  It would make zero sense for them to march off to Winterfell and save the day.  It didn't make much sense in the first place for them to recapture Riverrun.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2016, 07:24:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

I agree.  Brienne wil convince him he can do more good by getting the honors of war at Riverrun and march north.  How this could happen in the timeline of Jon attacking immediately I don't know, but time moves at the speed of plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2016, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 07, 2016, 07:18:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 07, 2016, 02:30:17 PM
My guess is that it will be the Blackfish who ends up being the help they need. Otherwise, why even bring him back into the story?

It's almost-certainly going to be Littlefinger and the army from the Vale that saves the day.  Hence the secretive nature of Sansa's letter-writing.  The Blackfish might well help out in the North, but his small force in Riverrun doesn't seem like it's going to be all the decisive--unless they participate in some retaliatory raids against the Freys later.

We have the scene of Jon Snow leading a cavalry charge into the heart of the Bolton army from the season spoilers.  He's clearly not going to be leading Wildlings, who have no horses.  Those have to be the Knights of the Vale we are talking about. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 07, 2016, 07:32:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 07, 2016, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 07, 2016, 09:28:25 AM
When Jon decided to march on Winterfell, they were arguing about someone else they needed to contact, Sansa wanted to contact them, Jon did not.  I think Sansa is writing to these people.

Also, in the books, there is someone who remains allies with the Stark, he feigns imprisoning the onion knight and later serves the Frey's sons to the old man in some blood pie.  Who was he?  Was he mentionned in the tv show?

Lord Wyman Manderly of White Harbor I think.

They've already done the Winterfell wedding, so the Frey pies cannot appear in that, but I dearly hope they appear somewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2016, 07:38:28 PM
Sadly, I don't think Frey pies are happening.  If they don't give me Manderly, I may have an aneurysm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2016, 08:13:40 PM
I thought Horn Hill, the seat of House Tarly, was a little too much. I always thought they were a 3rd or 4th rate House.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 07, 2016, 08:16:07 PM
Riverun was Ok, i guess. To much renaissance instead of late middle ages. Some of the defenses were clearly designed with gunpowder in mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 07, 2016, 08:33:32 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2016, 08:16:07 PM
Riverun was Ok, i guess. To much renaissance instead of late middle ages. Some of the defenses were clearly designed with gunpowder in mind.

What are you thinking of?  Moats, drawbridges, arrow slits and castellation are all pre-gunpowder defenses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 07, 2016, 08:34:33 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2016, 08:13:40 PM
I thought Horn Hill, the seat of House Tarly, was a little too much. I always thought they were a 3rd or 4th rate House.

There's a reason that Randyll Tarly is given such respect and a solid position in the books--Tarly holds some strong lands and has a lot of troops of his own.

And might end up being a Targaryen loyalist, but I'm not 100% convinced he'll switch sides soon...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 07, 2016, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 07, 2016, 08:13:40 PM
I thought Horn Hill, the seat of House Tarly, was a little too much. I always thought they were a 3rd or 4th rate House.

The budget has really increased this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2016, 01:40:24 PM
So, do you guys think that the creepy Highsparrow and Marge scene about sex with Tommen was Marge manipulating Highsparrow to get a carte blanche to bonk the kid or not?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2016, 01:41:34 PM
Marge needs permission to fuck her husband?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 08, 2016, 01:45:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2016, 01:41:34 PM
Marge needs permission to fuck her husband?
ordinarily, no.  But since she had to make atonements, must look pious and all, maybe it was a wise move?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 08, 2016, 01:47:41 PM
Wasn't it more him pointing out her marital duties? That sounded a bit like what a Catholic bishop would tell a noblewoman in the Middle Ages.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 08, 2016, 01:53:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 08, 2016, 01:47:41 PM
Wasn't it more him pointing out her marital duties? That sounded a bit like what a Catholic bishop would tell a noblewoman in the Middle Ages.
yeah, but she could have just jumped into bed with her husband after the "incident", but it wouldn't look too pious.  Waiting on the priest to remind her of her duties might have been a smart move, if she plays the long con.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 08, 2016, 01:57:12 PM
Which she clearly does as we could see with the small piece of paper with the rose on it that she gave to her grandmother. That must have indicated that she is still loyal to House Tyrell not the Seven.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 08, 2016, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 08, 2016, 01:57:12 PM
Which she clearly does as we could see with the small piece of paper with the rose on it that she gave to her grandmother. That must have indicated that she is still loyal to House Tyrell not the Seven.

Unless she's hustling her granny.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 08, 2016, 02:00:43 PM
I took it that, deep down, she really dislikes tommen for being such a bitch and had zero desire to fuck
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 08, 2016, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 08, 2016, 02:00:43 PM
I took it that, deep down, she really dislikes tommen for being such a bitch and had zero desire to fuck

Or maybe Tommen still a kid/tween?  That would be rape.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 08, 2016, 02:43:40 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 08, 2016, 02:00:43 PM
I took it that, deep down, she really dislikes tommen for being such a bitch and had zero desire to fuck
I think she's the the type to fuck so as she gets something out of it and not just an orgasm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 08, 2016, 04:07:06 PM
I think she wants to fuck Tommen asap if only to get the heir out of it (until then, if something happens to Tommen, she has no hold on the throne). She can also use sex to manipulate Tommen. But if she jumped Tommen's bones immediately after her conversion it would look suspicious - so she manipulates High Sparrow to tell her to. It's a win-win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 08, 2016, 07:21:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 08, 2016, 04:07:06 PM
I think she wants to fuck Tommen asap if only to get the heir out of it (until then, if something happens to Tommen, she has no hold on the throne). She can also use sex to manipulate Tommen. But if she jumped Tommen's bones immediately after her conversion it would look suspicious - so she manipulates High Sparrow to tell her to. It's a win-win.

I don't think so.
In the scene were she met Tommen she carefully questioned him to see were he stood with the high sparrow. I thought for a moment she was going to quietly ask him for the sparrows head. But she realized Tommen was taken.

The kind of woman she is, she have zero attraction to Tommen right now. Women in general don't get excited by pussies, but women in power know exactly what a sorry human being a pussy is and the dam doesn't open the flow gates
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 08, 2016, 07:26:22 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 08, 2016, 02:43:40 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 08, 2016, 02:00:43 PM
I took it that, deep down, she really dislikes tommen for being such a bitch and had zero desire to fuck
I think she's the the type to fuck so as she gets something out of it and not just an orgasm.

I don't think she can get an orgasm out of Tommen right now. Just when she thought she was getting Tommen out of his mother skirts, he falls under the spell of the high sparrow. Tommen is a wipped boy, submissive by nature. She ain't gettin an orgasm out of this weak kid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 08, 2016, 09:54:23 PM
You're weird, Siege.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 08, 2016, 10:35:08 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 08, 2016, 07:21:39 PM
The kind of woman she is, she have zero attraction to Tommen right now. Women in general don't get excited by pussies, but women in power know exactly what a sorry human being a pussy is and the dam doesn't open the flow gates
Attraction is irrelevant. Noble women have little say in whom they'll marry.

And "women in power", while to the east, it might mean walking through fire, have your dragon burn people and commanding an army of highly trained eunuchs, in Westeros, it mostly means marrying the right man, just like our medieval times.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on June 08, 2016, 10:51:51 PM
Last three episodes of the seasons have had their names released.

Episode 8: No One
Episode 9: Battle of the Bastards
Episode 10: The Winds of Winter
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on June 08, 2016, 10:53:07 PM
I don't think, as clever and manipulative as she is, she was ever attracted to Tommen, but now even less than before after that sorry showing. From the rose drawing bit, it's pretty clear her conversion is fake and she's just trying to manipulate the High Sparrow off her back... but exactly what her endgame is with Tommen I'm still not sure, but would not be totally surprised if she plays a role in his death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 09, 2016, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: PRC on June 08, 2016, 10:51:51 PM
Last three episodes of the seasons have had their names released.

Episode 8: No One
Episode 9: Battle of the Bastards
Episode 10: The Winds of Winter
So Episode 8 is obviously about Arya and Episode 9 is about the battle between Jon and Ramsay. Episode 10 is just a generic title (the sixth book in the series) and could be about anything, probably involving Bran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 09, 2016, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Camerus on June 08, 2016, 10:53:07 PM
I don't think, as clever and manipulative as she is, she was ever attracted to Tommen, but now even less than before after that sorry showing. From the rose drawing bit, it's pretty clear her conversion is fake and she's just trying to manipulate the High Sparrow off her back... but exactly what her endgame is with Tommen I'm still not sure, but would not be totally surprised if she plays a role in his death.

I think as soon as she gets preggers, Tommen is dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 09, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
It doesn't matter, Dany is coming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 09, 2016, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 09, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
It doesn't matter, Dany is coming.
She has the army, not the ships (as of yet) and there's not a ton of wood over there in Meereen.

Either Yara or the late Balon's brother needs to get there with some ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 09, 2016, 09:32:09 AM
Yes, Yara & her 1000 ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
Yara hava 1000 ships?
How?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:40:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 09, 2016, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Camerus on June 08, 2016, 10:53:07 PM
I don't think, as clever and manipulative as she is, she was ever attracted to Tommen, but now even less than before after that sorry showing. From the rose drawing bit, it's pretty clear her conversion is fake and she's just trying to manipulate the High Sparrow off her back... but exactly what her endgame is with Tommen I'm still not sure, but would not be totally surprised if she plays a role in his death.

I think as soon as she gets preggers, Tommen is dead.

I agree this is her MLCOA. (most likely course of action)
Any hopes she might have about controlling Tommen for the long game are now gone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 09, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
It doesn't matter, Dany is coming.

This is so predictable. If GRRM really wants to twist, he would kill her and have her army be destroyed by the alliance between all the free cities and leave westeros to face the white walkers by themselves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:45:46 AM
After all, the only thing you need to do to escape the white walkers and the night king is to sail across the narrow sea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 09, 2016, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:37:49 AMhava

Nagila?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 09, 2016, 11:53:51 AM
Apparently the last episode of the season is going to be 70 minutes long.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 09, 2016, 11:54:05 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
Yara hava 1000 ships?
How?

Yara says it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 09, 2016, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 09, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
It doesn't matter, Dany is coming.

This is so predictable. If GRRM really wants to twist, he would kill her and have her army be destroyed by the alliance between all the free cities and leave westeros to face the white walkers by themselves.

Wouldn't that make following her entire story entirely pointless?

No Dany needs to invade Westeros. How that turns out could be the twist. Wasting all of our time with a pointless story line that goes nowhere is not just a great twist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 09, 2016, 12:28:37 PM
I think the twist, based upon more than a few things, is that Daenarys will end up being very much a "ends justify the means" type of conqueror.  The dragons will be unleashed, the Dothraki will pillage and burn and rape, and her army will scythe through the disorganized Westerosi for a time.  "Fire and Blood" will be more than some empty words for her.  I think that, even if she steps back from the ledge of full-on Mad King's Daughter, she will nonetheless prove every bit the conqueror that Aegon I was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 09, 2016, 08:59:00 PM
well, there was that vision where she walked through a charred red keep
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 10, 2016, 12:14:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 09, 2016, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 09, 2016, 11:37:49 AMhava

Nagila?

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 10, 2016, 12:17:40 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 09, 2016, 12:28:37 PM
I think the twist, based upon more than a few things, is that Daenarys will end up being very much a "ends justify the means" type of conqueror.  The dragons will be unleashed, the Dothraki will pillage and burn and rape, and her army will scythe through the disorganized Westerosi for a time.  "Fire and Blood" will be more than some empty words for her.  I think that, even if she steps back from the ledge of full-on Mad King's Daughter, she will nonetheless prove every bit the conqueror that Aegon I was.

Yeah. It just occurred to me this is going to be how Tyrion and/or Varys will probably die. They are bound to be horrified by what she does and will probably try to stop her somehow. But I don't think they have one more "safe pivot" in them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 11, 2016, 04:08:57 PM
http://thronesrealm.com/game-thones-photo-next-episode-hints-another-character-return/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 12, 2016, 08:23:45 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 12, 2016, 09:05:16 PM
Arya sure made a quick recovery from being stabbed to death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 12, 2016, 09:09:41 PM
Cleganebowl: CANCELLED
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 12, 2016, 09:16:35 PM
Arya's storyline this season seems pretty fucking pointless so far.  I assume she'll night-murder someone with her new blind-fighting skills, but I'm pretty unimpressed by her arc.

The Riverrun scenes were great.  Of course, the Blackfish is still very much alive...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 12, 2016, 09:19:00 PM
Meh episode. although no LSH, which is good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 12, 2016, 09:27:07 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 06, 2016, 12:14:24 AM
Short of magical healing, some sort of switcheroo (the Waif is really Arya!11zomg!), or plot armor, I don't see how Arya survives those wounds.  But I know she will.  It will be interesting to see how they pull that off.

Welp, I was wrong.  It wasn't interesting at all.  It was just handwavy magic healing plot-armor to the rescue.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2016, 09:35:51 PM
Terrible resolution to the Arya storyline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 12, 2016, 09:37:27 PM
More confirmation that Cersei will end up trying to burn the city down (and maybe succeed) a la The Mad King, by the way.  I loved that, at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 12, 2016, 09:40:05 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 11, 2016, 04:08:57 PM
http://thronesrealm.com/game-thones-photo-next-episode-hints-another-character-return/

So glad this turned out to be BS.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 12, 2016, 09:45:38 PM
The faceless men are kind of pushovers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 12, 2016, 09:53:42 PM
Beric alive implies no LSH.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 12, 2016, 10:05:02 PM
Terrible episode.  Not sure whether to laugh or cry after that wretched performance. Arya's death wound doen't even get a nod, she just recovers from a dagger to the hilt in her guts, followed by immersion in shit-filled  water, without so much as a fever.  That arc (and, it turns out, the Blackfish arc) was credibility-busting.

Boo that episode!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 12, 2016, 10:06:59 PM
Except the Bronn, Hound and Brienne bits.  Those were gold, as always.

No Samwise Gamgee moments lowers the boo volume to painful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 12, 2016, 10:23:10 PM
milk of the poppy = anesthetic + strong will + luck. it's possible, even if it's not plausible (but I agree that arya's plot was meh, but that's the case in the books, too. consequence of GRRM failing to time-jump)

don't see the credibility issue re: blackfish
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 13, 2016, 12:44:57 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 12, 2016, 09:40:05 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 11, 2016, 04:08:57 PM
http://thronesrealm.com/game-thones-photo-next-episode-hints-another-character-return/

So glad this turned out to be BS.
lots of BS theories out there, this was fun however.  The length some fans will go :)
I saw one where Arya was in fact a double and the real one was walking right beside her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2016, 01:14:53 AM
Gotta agree with grumbler. While I liked some stuff that happened (Cersei using the Mountain like he was a California primary and Bernie Bros just came to ask her for her emails again; Hound/Dondarrion courtroom drama and stuff with Pod and Bronn), the main plotlines kinda sucked. Worst episode of the season hands down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 13, 2016, 05:02:11 AM
Is it my Scandiweenian anti-religiousness that makes me actually root for the Mountain vs. the Fanatics or do everybody else also do that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2016, 05:03:28 AM
Definitely - most people I spoke to were disappointed Mountain stopped after one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 13, 2016, 09:15:25 AM
Worst episode of the season and one of the worst of the series.  Every scene felt contrived.  From Arya not dying then returning to her mentor who lets her go - to the 'siege' of Riverrun where that dolt Edmuire ends up giving his castle without a fight to those who tortured him for years - to Brienne who's 'sworn' to fight Jamie yet runs in the middle of the night - to Blackfish, reintroduced last week only to be killed off in passing - to Danny who returns in the nick of time on Drogon-express...  Pfff  <_<

Oh well I guess there had to be one shitty episode in this, so far the best season of the series.

And btw, where's Varrys going?  I stopped reading the books after the 3rd one so.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 13, 2016, 09:18:31 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 13, 2016, 09:15:25 AM
And btw, where's Varrys going?  I stopped reading the books after the 3rd one so.

In the Books he is supporting a claimant who is not even in the TV series so the books are no guide here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 13, 2016, 09:23:01 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 13, 2016, 09:15:25 AM
Worst episode of the season and one of the worst of the series.  Every scene felt contrived.  From Arya not dying then returning to her mentor who lets her go - to the 'siege' of Riverrun where that dolt Edmuire ends up giving his castle without a fight to those who tortured him for years - to Brienne who's 'sworn' to fight Jamie yet runs in the middle of the night - to Blackfish, reintroduced last week only to be killed off in passing - to Danny who returns in the nick of time on Drogon-express...  Pfff  <_<

Oh well I guess there had to be one shitty episode in this, so far the best season of the series.

And btw, where's Varrys going?  I stopped reading the books after the 3rd one so.



G.

I agree. The only highlights for me were the scenes involving the Clegane brothers - especially Cersei's "I choose violence" which gave me a satisfactory "Glen Close in Dangerous Liaisons" vibe. Still not enough fundamentalists were squashed like bugs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 13, 2016, 09:29:53 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 13, 2016, 09:15:25 AM
From Arya not dying then returning to her mentor who lets her go
Yi called it.

Quoteto the 'siege' of Riverrun where that dolt Edmuire ends up giving his castle without a fight to those who tortured him for years -
Edmure, I can live with it.  But the soldiers willingly letting him in and obeying to order to surrender, against the Blackfish, that was silly.

Quote
to Brienne who's 'sworn' to fight Jamie yet runs in the middle of the night -
Nope, she is not sworn to fight Jaimie.  She said she would be sworn to figth Jaimie if there was a battle.  There is no battle.  Blackfish is deposed and Edmure surrenders.

Quoteto Blackfish, reintroduced last week only to be killed off in passing
Is he really dead?  We haven't seen his body.

Quote
- to Danny who returns in the nick of time on Drogon-express...  Pfff  <_<
That was cliché, but it was expected.  She was one week away 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2016, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 13, 2016, 09:29:53 AM
Yi called it.

I got it completely wrong.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 13, 2016, 07:24:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 13, 2016, 05:03:28 AM

Definitely - most people I spoke to were disappointed Mountain stopped after one.

Yeah. I was like: "Religious Fundamentalist bloodbath time!!!!111"

Then nothing happens. Meh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 13, 2016, 10:37:10 PM
Edmure's surrender was exactly as it happened in the books. Of course his men would obey him over the Blackfish. He's their lord.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 13, 2016, 11:17:50 PM
Quote from: Jaron on June 13, 2016, 10:37:10 PM
Edmure's surrender was exactly as it happened in the books. Of course his men would obey him over the Blackfish. He's their lord.

Yeah, people forget that the Blackfish is a stranger to those men.  Edmure is someone they've known all of their lives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 14, 2016, 12:20:32 AM
Yeah, viper's comment about Edmure and Riverrun completely misunderstands the feudal mindset.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 14, 2016, 02:17:37 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 13, 2016, 09:15:25 AM
Worst episode of the season and one of the worst of the series.  Every scene felt contrived.  From Arya not dying then returning to her mentor who lets her go - to the 'siege' of Riverrun where that dolt Edmuire ends up giving his castle without a fight to those who tortured him for years - to Brienne who's 'sworn' to fight Jamie yet runs in the middle of the night - to Blackfish, reintroduced last week only to be killed off in passing - to Danny who returns in the nick of time on Drogon-express...  Pfff  <_<

Oh well I guess there had to be one shitty episode in this, so far the best season of the series.

And btw, where's Varrys going?  I stopped reading the books after the 3rd one so.



G.
Glad it's not just me.
A lot happened. It should have been great.
But just.....meh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on June 14, 2016, 09:16:38 AM
this entire season's been kind of ...meh. Hard to believe the story plotting has gotten worse since  they strayed from the books. And very little nudity too. :mad:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 14, 2016, 10:10:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on June 14, 2016, 09:16:38 AM
And very little nudity too. :mad:
yeah.  No Margaery walk of shame :mad:
:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 14, 2016, 10:22:16 AM
I must admit that seeing Beric Dondarrion again made me much happier than I thought it would. At least a happy surprise!  :lol: If the Hound joins the Brotherhood they become my fav faction instantly.

Good to see Bronn mentoring Pod a bit, hope to see him put that in practice at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 14, 2016, 10:42:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 14, 2016, 10:22:16 AM
Good to see Bronn mentoring Pod a bit, hope to see him put that in practice at some point.

That was awesome.

"OK, look at your feet..."

WHACK.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 14, 2016, 11:12:20 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 14, 2016, 10:42:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 14, 2016, 10:22:16 AM
Good to see Bronn mentoring Pod a bit, hope to see him put that in practice at some point.

That was awesome.

"OK, look at your feet..."

WHACK.

Sandor had a couple of good ones too.

"Everybody dies. Well, except that one (pointing at Dondarrion)"

"- How do you like the food? - I'd have preferred chicken."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2016, 11:23:10 AM
"You're shit at dying" was my favorite.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 14, 2016, 11:23:48 AM
http://imgur.com/a/4EEPH#J9rfH1E

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 14, 2016, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 14, 2016, 11:23:48 AM
http://imgur.com/a/4EEPH#J9rfH1E

:D

Those are great.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 14, 2016, 06:05:19 PM
I kinda hope we are going somewhere with reintroducing the Blackfish and then killing him off in the next episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 14, 2016, 06:14:29 PM
Not really.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 14, 2016, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: Josephus on June 14, 2016, 09:16:38 AM
this entire season's been kind of ...meh. Hard to believe the story plotting has gotten worse since  they strayed from the books. And very little nudity too. :mad:

It probably isn't coincidental that the show writers are having problems at exactly the point where GRRM had so many problems that he basically stopped writing this for a while.

It is always harder to bring a story back to the main threads than to continue to expand the story threads.  Decisions have to be made. Options have to be closed off.  That's obviously very hard in this case.

What I don't like about the show writing is their insistence on building up to climaxes and then just dropping them (as I didn't like the Quentyn Martell storyline that GRRM trotted out, just to kill him when it could have been interesting).  Arya's plot armor (really?  She survived that because someone had a bandaid?) was the worst case of this, but the whole Dorne storyline could have been dropped without anyone missing it, as well.

This episode had some bad moments, more of them than any episode I can recall in the series, but it also had some of the best moments in the series.  Sandor Clegane was only better in the inn fight (face it:  the line "I understand that if any more words come pouring out of your cunt mouth, I'm going to have to eat every fucking chicken in this room" will never be topped, and the shout-out in this episode was hilarious), Brienne with Jaime was brilliantly done, and "I choose violence" was the only time I actually rooted for Cersei or The Mountain. 

I'd have preferred it if Jaime understood the need to send reinforcements north and his discussion with Edmure was to get Edmure's agreement to send the Blackfish and Edmure's retainers north (that is what I was expecting, frankly, and the actual resolution of the Blackfish story was a total damp squib, which could only be worse if he smuggled himself out with Brienne -  hell, I was half-expecting Jaime to send Bronn with them, which would have been really fun!).  I'd also have preferred it if Arya had been saved in some less pedestrian way (though I couldn't think of a way for her to survive short of drinking from the MFG well).

The show's problems stem from them following GRRM too closely to this point, not from them not having a story from this point forward.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 14, 2016, 07:17:52 PM
They should have killed Arya already.
I mean, by this point who really cares?
The show might have even been better without her character at all. The only thing really relevant to Westeros she ever did was to witness the beheading of Ned Stark, and that could have beeen easily been done from Sansa s point of view. She was there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 14, 2016, 07:35:58 PM
They kind of Grand Old Duke of Yorked her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 14, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 14, 2016, 07:17:52 PM
They should have killed Arya already.
I mean, by this point who really cares?
The show might have even been better without her character at all. The only thing really relevant to Westeros she ever did was to witness the beheading of Ned Stark, and that could have beeen easily been done from Sansa s point of view. She was there.

Disagree.  Arya now dispels all plot armor for anyone on her list.  How does Cersei die?  I'd give 70% odds that Jaimie kills her, but the other 30% is Arya.  How does Walder Frye die?  80% Arya.  And so forth.  She is plot-armor-killer made manifest.  A deus ex machina.  I'll bet she stole some faces to help her.
She won't end up living happily ever after, except that, at her death (maybe killing Walder Frey), she will warg to her direwolf, and live on as a killer.  That's the kind of bittersweet ending the show will dish up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 15, 2016, 08:15:07 AM
But she haven't been having the wolf dreams as in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 15, 2016, 08:19:05 AM
Ser Robert Strong, didn't that sparrow penetrated his armor too easily? Couldn't tell if it was some sort of armor piercing weapon, but it looked too broad headed to be armor piercing. That was not a warhammer .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:25:14 AM
It was a spiked mace - basically something rather specifically designed to penetrate plate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:26:17 AM
I do think it is rather funny that the Sparrow is so very worried about who was fucking who, but apparently rather obvious necromancy is not really worth worrying too much about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 15, 2016, 08:28:42 AM
I don't think it's obvious to him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2016, 08:28:42 AM
I don't think it's obvious to him.

I think it is pretty obvious to everyone. It's not like they are keeping him hidden away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 15, 2016, 08:41:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2016, 08:28:42 AM
I don't think it's obvious to him.

I think it is pretty obvious to everyone. It's not like they are keeping him hidden away.

It is obvious for the eye witnesses of that fight now, but apart from that, AFAIK nobody even knew, or knows now, that he is the Mountain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:44:19 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2016, 08:41:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2016, 08:28:42 AM
I don't think it's obvious to him.

I think it is pretty obvious to everyone. It's not like they are keeping him hidden away.

It is obvious for the eye witnesses of that fight now, but apart from that, AFAIK nobody even knew, or knows now, that he is the Mountain.

WTF?

Who do they think he is then? Robo-knight?

Kingsguard knights don't just spring into being out of nowhere without anyone noticing or commenting. Especially not seven foot tall ones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 15, 2016, 08:48:39 AM
That's how I remember the book, but I can't say I really care either way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:53:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2016, 08:48:39 AM
That's how I remember the book, but I can't say I really care either way.

IIRC, in the books they kept him hidden away pretty much all of the time, didn't they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 10:06:25 AM
In the books, he is fairly public as well, but the secret of his identity is held more by a conspiracy of silence than anything.  Many people (Kevan Lannister, for instance) suspect who he really is, but keep their mouths shut due to the need for Cersei to win her trial by combat.  I think it's a bit less obvious in the books that he's a zombie--in the show, the armor they have him in deliberately allows the audience to see his eyes and the creepy skin-tone he's sporting to make him more menacing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on June 15, 2016, 10:19:57 AM
One theme I picked up on is that we now have at least two formerly dead (not zombified) characters brought back to life by crap magicians who thought their power was on the wane and seemed surprised by their own success. Is magic getting more powerful because Winter Is Coming or White Walkers or Dragons? Is the fact dragons are back due to the increased magic, whatever the cause? Was there someone else present at the resurrections actually doing the magic?

I suspect these less dead than they were individuals will prove critical - immune to White Walker touch for example. As will the wielders of Valyrian steel and dragonglass weapons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 15, 2016, 10:55:06 AM
On the show they pretty obviously know that he is The Mountain, as they called him that several times. There's no "Robert Strong" on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 10:56:46 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 15, 2016, 10:19:57 AM
One theme I picked up on is that we now have at least two formerly dead (not zombified) characters brought back to life by crap magicians who thought their power was on the wane and seemed surprised by their own success. Is magic getting more powerful because Winter Is Coming or White Walkers or Dragons? Is the fact dragons are back due to the increased magic, whatever the cause? Was there someone else present at the resurrections actually doing the magic?

I suspect these less dead than they were individuals will prove critical - immune to White Walker touch for example. As will the wielders of Valyrian steel and dragonglass weapons.

Not so much magic getting stronger as plotting ability of writers (book and tele) getting weaker.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
 :huh:  How is resurrecting Jon a sign of the plot getting weaker in the books?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 15, 2016, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
:huh:  How is resurrecting Jon a sign of the plot getting weaker in the books?

Agreed, especially when Jon joined the Night Watch in Book 1/Season 1, and thus was planned to die and be resurrected from the get-go (as the only means by which he could get out of his Night's Watch obligations).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
Killing and resurrecting anyone is suggestive of dubious writing.  It's a way to get the dramatic effect of a death without the cost of losing the character.  Doing it once gets a pass.  More than once, not so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 15, 2016, 12:06:03 PM
It's a clear theme in the books that magic is making a comeback in the world. It is stated as such by one of the Maesters of the Citadel, by Melisandre, IIRC by Euron (?), by someone in Qarth, etc. It has always been one of the overarching themes of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 15, 2016, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2016, 08:53:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 15, 2016, 08:48:39 AM
That's how I remember the book, but I can't say I really care either way.

IIRC, in the books they kept him hidden away pretty much all of the time, didn't they?

But in the TV show, just because the audience can see his zombie eyes in a close up take doesn't mean the characters in the show can see it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 15, 2016, 01:22:59 PM
I like to think of all magic as misunderstood technology.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 15, 2016, 01:33:07 PM
Quote from: Brazen on June 15, 2016, 10:19:57 AM
One theme I picked up on is that we now have at least two formerly dead (not zombified) characters brought back to life by crap magicians who thought their power was on the wane and seemed surprised by their own success. Is magic getting more powerful because Winter Is Coming or White Walkers or Dragons? Is the fact dragons are back due to the increased magic, whatever the cause? Was there someone else present at the resurrections actually doing the magic?

I suspect these less dead than they were individuals will prove critical - immune to White Walker touch for example. As will the wielders of Valyrian steel and dragonglass weapons.
in the books, they link it to the arrival of the dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 15, 2016, 01:34:54 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 15, 2016, 01:22:59 PM
I like to think of all magic as misunderstood technology.
Are the Gods a misunderstood technology?

In the show, Melisandre has hinted that most of what she does are tricks and potions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 15, 2016, 02:18:16 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
Killing and resurrecting anyone is suggestive of dubious writing.  It's a way to get the dramatic effect of a death without the cost of losing the character.  Doing it once gets a pass.  More than once, not so much.

Yeah, I thought that was a known weakness in the book series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 03:46:22 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
Killing and resurrecting anyone is suggestive of dubious writing.  It's a way to get the dramatic effect of a death without the cost of losing the character.  Doing it once gets a pass.  More than once, not so much.

Resurrection without consequences would, indeed, be suggestive of dubious writing.  It has happened in the show but a single time, by my recollection, and that one was planned from the outset.  In the books, a resurrection without consequences has happened precisely zero times.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 15, 2016, 04:34:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 03:46:22 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
Killing and resurrecting anyone is suggestive of dubious writing.  It's a way to get the dramatic effect of a death without the cost of losing the character.  Doing it once gets a pass.  More than once, not so much.

Resurrection without consequences would, indeed, be suggestive of dubious writing.  It has happened in the show but a single time, by my recollection, and that one was planned from the outset.  In the books, a resurrection without consequences has happened precisely zero times.
Lord Beric is resurected to permit the resurection of Caytlin. It is quite circular.  Lady Stoneheart does not serve any purpose in the books so far.  Hanging Lannisters could be done by anyone.
Some Targaryen boy is found in hiding after being presumed dead.  This I think serves no purpose, other than to bring another plot twist.
The Mountain was brought back for a purpose... that has now been defeated in the series.  We'll see about the books.
Mance Rayder, in the books.  What purpose does he serve precisely?  The series has done fine without him around...

And I might have forgotten a few.

Even if they serve a purpose, at some point, it becomes redundant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
The author's/showrunner's willingness to knock off characters is one of thing that gives the story edge.  But its reached the point in both where every time there is a death I have to ask myself is he/she maybe dead or dead dead.  That's not a good thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 15, 2016, 04:46:23 PM
The dead-doesn't-mean-dead-not-really is the most annyoing thing about the books IMHO (haven't seen much of the TV show).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 04:56:46 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 15, 2016, 04:34:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 15, 2016, 03:46:22 PM
Resurrection without consequences would, indeed, be suggestive of dubious writing.  It has happened in the show but a single time, by my recollection, and that one was planned from the outset.  In the books, a resurrection without consequences has happened precisely zero times.
Lord Beric is resurected to permit the resurection of Caytlin. It is quite circular.  Lady Stoneheart does not serve any purpose in the books so far.  Hanging Lannisters could be done by anyone.
Some Targaryen boy is found in hiding after being presumed dead.  This I think serves no purpose, other than to bring another plot twist.
The Mountain was brought back for a purpose... that has now been defeated in the series.  We'll see about the books.
Mance Rayder, in the books.  What purpose does he serve precisely?  The series has done fine without him around...

And I might have forgotten a few.

Even if they serve a purpose, at some point, it becomes redundant.

Resurrection without consequences now includes Catelyn Stark being brought back as a murder-zombie at the cost of another character who, having been resurrected multiple times, essentially lost his entire identity?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 15, 2016, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
The author's/showrunner's willingness to knock off characters is one of thing that gives the story edge.  But its reached the point in both where every time there is a death I have to ask myself is he/she maybe dead or dead dead.  That's not a good thing.

:yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 15, 2016, 05:44:06 PM
GRRM lost me when he killed Tywin Lannister. The show is just not the same without him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 15, 2016, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 15, 2016, 05:44:06 PM
GRRM lost me when he killed Tywin Lannister. The show is just not the same without him.

No more posting drunk.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on June 15, 2016, 06:02:56 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
Killing and resurrecting anyone is suggestive of dubious writing.  It's a way to get the dramatic effect of a death without the cost of losing the character.  Doing it once gets a pass.  More than once, not so much.

Yeah, that was the final straw for me... with the second resurrection in the books I stopped reading.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 15, 2016, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
The author's/showrunner's willingness to knock off characters is one of thing that gives the story edge.  But its reached the point in both where every time there is a death I have to ask myself is he/she maybe dead or dead dead.  That's not a good thing.

I quite agree, but don;t agree that these resurrections are signs of the "plotting ability of writers (book and tele) getting weaker."  At least some of these resurrections were planned from the start, so the weakness was always there.  The show had to show Dondarron resurrected so the Jon resurrection (the key one) wasn't so deus ex machina.  Mercifully, the show hasn't done more than that (the Mountain wasn't necessarily even resurrected so much as he was prevented from dying by "mad science").  Lady Stoneheart was completely unnecessary and the show wisely skipped her.

In the books, I feel as you do.  The whole resurrection thing makes death kinda meaningless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:17:32 AM
Help me settle an argument at work. Which Game Of thrones actor was the most famous before they were on the show? My entirely UK-centric shortlist is:

Charles Dance, Sean Bean, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Ian McShane, Richard E Grant, Mark Gatiss and Jerome Flynn.

I've probably forgotten more than I remember.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 16, 2016, 03:19:31 AM
Sean Bean?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:22:59 AM
Quote from: katmai on June 16, 2016, 03:19:31 AM
Sean Bean?
Oh yeah  :blush: Edited :)

Gratuitous:
(https://www.dramafever.com/st/news/images/e1ad846c-a1be-4cbb-9db4-2650c13ca6e6.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 16, 2016, 03:42:26 AM
Sean Bean for sure, he was the main draw for the show when it was launched after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 16, 2016, 03:51:10 AM
I know when it first debuted it was Bean, Dinklage as two most recognizable names.

Then Addy, Headey and Coster-Waldau.

For me I mean.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 16, 2016, 03:55:57 AM
Coster-Waldau was already one of the biggest stars we have here, so naturally him for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 04:39:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 16, 2016, 03:42:26 AM
Sean Bean for sure, he was the main draw for the show when it was launched after all.
Which was why it was so groundbreaking and shocking when he dies so early on, setting the tone for the rest of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 16, 2016, 04:54:59 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 04:39:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 16, 2016, 03:42:26 AM
Sean Bean for sure, he was the main draw for the show when it was launched after all.
Which was why it was so groundbreaking and shocking when he dies so early on, setting the tone for the rest of the series.

Yup, and it really launched the "Sean Bean dies in every show he's in" meme.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 16, 2016, 07:47:10 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 15, 2016, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
The author's/showrunner's willingness to knock off characters is one of thing that gives the story edge.  But its reached the point in both where every time there is a death I have to ask myself is he/she maybe dead or dead dead.  That's not a good thing.

I quite agree, but don;t agree that these resurrections are signs of the "plotting ability of writers (book and tele) getting weaker."  At least some of these resurrections were planned from the start, so the weakness was always there.  The show had to show Dondarron resurrected so the Jon resurrection (the key one) wasn't so deus ex machina.  Mercifully, the show hasn't done more than that (the Mountain wasn't necessarily even resurrected so much as he was prevented from dying by "mad science").  Lady Stoneheart was completely unnecessary and the show wisely skipped her.

In the books, I feel as you do.  The whole resurrection thing makes death kinda meaningless.

It isn't just literal resurrection though - the Hound was figuratively resurrected as well. Insofar as he was apparently dead, then not dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 16, 2016, 08:28:39 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:17:32 AM
Help me settle an argument at work. Which Game Of thrones actor was the most famous before they were on the show? My entirely UK-centric shortlist is:

Charles Dance, Sean Bean, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Ian McShane, Richard E Grant, Mark Gatiss and Jerome Flynn.

I've probably forgotten more than I remember.
Sean Bean and Lena Headey for me.  Had no idea who were the others, though I later recognized Charles Dance from a few of Simon Pegg's hilarious comedies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 16, 2016, 09:41:17 AM
That chick from the Terminator TV show with the ghey John Connor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 16, 2016, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:17:32 AM
Help me settle an argument at work. Which Game Of thrones actor was the most famous before they were on the show? My entirely UK-centric shortlist is:

Charles Dance, Sean Bean, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Ian McShane, Richard E Grant, Mark Gatiss and Jerome Flynn.

I've probably forgotten more than I remember.

Seen Been, definitely.  Or Shaun Bawn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2016, 02:01:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2016, 07:47:10 AM
It isn't just literal resurrection though - the Hound was figuratively resurrected as well. Insofar as he was apparently dead, then not dead.

I never for a moment thought he was dead, so the fact that he wasn't dead (apparently) didn't bother me at all. 

I am hoping that there is a plot point to the rumor of his death, but it wouldn't totally surprise me to discover that it was just GRRM fucking around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 16, 2016, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:17:32 AM
Help me settle an argument at work. Which Game Of thrones actor was the most famous before they were on the show? My entirely UK-centric shortlist is:

Charles Dance, Sean Bean, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Ian McShane, Richard E Grant, Mark Gatiss and Jerome Flynn.

I've probably forgotten more than I remember.

Diana Rigg was the best-known name to me. From The Avengers show, but also because I saw her multiple times on stage in London.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 16, 2016, 02:50:10 PM
SEAN BEAN
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 17, 2016, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 16, 2016, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:17:32 AM
Help me settle an argument at work. Which Game Of thrones actor was the most famous before they were on the show? My entirely UK-centric shortlist is:

Charles Dance, Sean Bean, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Ian McShane, Richard E Grant, Mark Gatiss and Jerome Flynn.

I've probably forgotten more than I remember.

Diana Rigg was the best-known name to me. From The Avengers show, but also because I saw her multiple times on stage in London.

She looked familiar but I didnt know why until just now.  I loved her in the Avengers. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 17, 2016, 08:59:10 PM
 Jonathon Pryce
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 18, 2016, 10:19:14 PM
That chick playing the hott chick in the new X men movie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 18, 2016, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: Siege on June 18, 2016, 10:19:14 PM
That chick playing the hott chick in the new X men movie.

You really think that a woman whose name you cannot remember is more famous than Sean Fucking Bean?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 19, 2016, 05:16:58 AM
You have no sense of humor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2016, 06:49:48 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 19, 2016, 05:16:58 AM
You have no sense of humor.

Back atcha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 19, 2016, 06:53:56 AM
Especially when the question was who was the most famous before Game of Thrones. Sophie Turner didn't have a single acting credit to her name before GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 19, 2016, 08:15:02 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 16, 2016, 03:17:32 AM
Help me settle an argument at work. Which Game Of thrones actor was the most famous before they were on the show? My entirely UK-centric shortlist is:

Charles Dance, Sean Bean, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Ian McShane, Richard E Grant, Mark Gatiss and Jerome Flynn.

I've probably forgotten more than I remember.
100% Bean.
Charles Dance a distant second. He's one of those guys where most will see him and go "Saw him in something before...." but wouldn't be able to connect the dots.

Richard E Grant I guess is up there with Bean but he's just a minor recent role on the show, cheating a little to include him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on June 19, 2016, 08:20:53 AM
For me, it was Sean Bean, then Lena Headey and Charles Dance. Also Aiden Gillen, because of The Wire. That's for when the show debuted, of course. Then they added people like Jonathan Pryce and a boatload of the Rome cast, which are pretty familiar faces.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 19, 2016, 10:34:07 AM
I have to admit, I don't really have high hopes for tonight's episode.  Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but while the combat scenes will surely be well done and amazing, I suspect the narrative beats are going to be pretty predictable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2016, 08:54:44 PM
HBO Now has completely collapsed tonight.  50 minutes into the show, it is unwatchable on the internet stream ("HBO NOW has run into a problem. -4000").   They are practically begging people willing to pay for the service to steal it instead, since stealing it is as fast as paying for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 19, 2016, 09:09:34 PM
In the end Bolton wasn't wrong when he said he was a part of Sansa now. And I wonder what price she'll have to pay for the aid of little finger
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 19, 2016, 09:51:22 PM
The Dreadfort sub-Reddit is a laugh riot right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 19, 2016, 10:15:27 PM
57 minutes into the show, it is available.

The battle was kinda crap. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 19, 2016, 10:21:26 PM
Overall a good episode, but I was disappointed with the lack of development in Arya's arc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 19, 2016, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2016, 10:15:27 PMThe battle was kinda crap.

why do you think this? vale knights saving the day?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 19, 2016, 10:33:11 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 19, 2016, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2016, 10:15:27 PMThe battle was kinda crap.

why do you think this? vale knights saving the day?
we knew it was coming, but I liked it anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 19, 2016, 10:39:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 19, 2016, 10:33:11 PMwe knew it was coming, but I liked it anyway.

:yes:

great episode all around
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 19, 2016, 10:50:30 PM
One of the things that makes grumbler who he is is the fact he can never be wholly satisfied with anything except Babylon 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 19, 2016, 11:01:43 PM
Somebody should tell Grey Worm he's not allowed to have such a fine thick package for a eunuch!  Dam!  :licklips:

I already love the fact they pursue this story-line before moving on to the northern story.  Now I'm going back to it.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 19, 2016, 11:14:40 PM
Great action.  It may just be the immediate adrenaline speaking, but that episode had me the most pumped of the entire series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 19, 2016, 11:18:13 PM
No season ends this happy.  I'm expecting some named deaths on the "good" side next week.  Missandei, Grey Worm, Davos, Tormund.  Someone or someones are going to even the scales.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 19, 2016, 11:20:46 PM
Sansa is semi-disposable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 19, 2016, 11:49:43 PM
Great, so Polish HBO GO cocked up something and first uploaded episode 9 with video of episode 5 and now took it off completely. So I can't watch it before work.  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 19, 2016, 11:50:42 PM
I wouldn't call the episode squeaky clan.

I'd be okay with a bit of a break in Westeros if they'd hammer down on Daenerys a bit. She's had a very easy ride.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 20, 2016, 12:00:51 AM
Pity for Rickon.

Good points for the hounds' feast.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on June 20, 2016, 12:11:45 AM
Why exactly is Daenerys letting the city burn for a couple of hours before acting?

The writing is pretty stupid sometimes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 12:25:08 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 19, 2016, 11:18:13 PM
No season ends this happy.  I'm expecting some named deaths on the "good" side next week.  Missandei, Grey Worm, Davos, Tormund.  Someone or someones are going to even the scales.

I think a lot of baddies are going to drop this season to weigh the scales the other way.  We still have a certain group of birds waiting to stab 1-2 people while another group of birds is, I think, going to explode under Cersei's direction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 12:34:05 AM
I hope cersei blows up kings landing
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 12:43:12 AM
Very good animal CGI.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 12:46:57 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 12:43:12 AM
Very good animal CGI.

Ok, TheBrain.  :yucky:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 20, 2016, 01:27:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 12:46:57 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 12:43:12 AM
Very good animal CGI.

Ok, TheBrain.  :yucky:

Very good human CGI as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 20, 2016, 07:38:10 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2016, 12:11:45 AM
Why exactly is Daenerys letting the city burn for a couple of hours before acting?

The writing is pretty stupid sometimes.

Yeah, It was a very awkward way to give a pretext for the imps speech.  And then we see Dany fully transformed into the good queen again when she acquires her fleet.

We went from the war of the Kings to the collaboration of the Queens.  Now we just have to see whether Sansa plays along when Dany returns.  And what is going to happen with Jon and backstory of who his mother really is.  Is it going to be as corny as Jon and Dany getting married and together facing the Others?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 08:00:22 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2016, 12:11:45 AM
Why exactly is Daenerys letting the city burn for a couple of hours before acting?

The writing is pretty stupid sometimes.
deploy the troops, free the dragons, plan a counter attack, make sure everyone understands their part.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
Good episode in over all plot progression, but I am still consistently disappointed in the weakness of the writing in the details.

So much of it is so trite and predictable.

Sansa tells Jon "Don't play into Ramsey's plans! He will lay the trap!"

And what happens? Jon does exactly that, of course. Ramsey basically, in every reasonable way, outthinks, out-fights, out-smarts Jon....and we have the deus ex machina "solution" come riding to the rescue at the nick of time. Jon wins despite working really, really, REALLY fucking hard to hand the battle to Ramsay.

Another thing - the idea that someone is going to shoot a fleeing man with an arrow at any kind of range? Stupid. Not possible. Fuck Rickon, run in anything other than a perfectly straight line and the shot becomes basically impossible.

And where in gods name did the giant mounds of dead bodies come from? WTF was that?

The actual visual of the Knights of the Vale crashing into the lines was awesome however.

And the Masters are the opposite of Westeros villains. Just complete imbeciles in every way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 20, 2016, 09:51:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AMAnd where in gods name did the giant mounds of dead bodies come from? WTF was that?

Straight out of 300!  :lol:

That was the most ridiculous part IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
Fuck Rickon, run in anything other than a perfectly straight line and the shot becomes basically impossible.
yes, it is often the case in any kind of movie or tv series, wether they shoot bullets or arrows, the victim runs in a straight line.  Wtf are they thinking?

Quote
And where in gods name did the giant mounds of dead bodies come from? WTF was that?
6000 on one side, 2000 wildlings + the 62 from Bear island + a few more knights on the other.  That's roughly 8000-9000 warriors in there fighting each other, plus the horses.  It climbs quickly.  They gave the numbers two weeks ago.
Just before the battle, Ramsey said Jon had less than half his men.  And we know he had around 6000, they gave the numbers two weeks ago.

Quote
And the Masters are the opposite of Westeros villains. Just complete imbeciles in every way.
Yep.  This is why Dany outsmarts them everytime.  Though to be honest, Cersei ain't too bright either.  Joffrey wasn't too bright either.  Ramsey was a smart psychopath and Tywin Lannister was a great & ruthless strategist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 10:00:37 AM
I was kind of struggling not to laugh at the scene of the Sons of the harpy in front of the gates just hanging out, murdering women and stuff, because you know, that is what they do. Outside the city gates. At that particular moment in time. For no particular reason.

And here come the Dothraki! yeah!

I totally thought that entire scene was the result of some writers meeting where they were wrapping up the plan for this episode and the next and then someone said "Ahhh, fuck! We forgot about the Dothraki! Aren't they supposed to be back as well????"

So they threw in this low budget scene of a dozen Harpies apparently doing Evil Things for some CGI Dothraki to kill.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2016, 10:04:25 AM
Battle was stupid.
But cool.
So no more giants? :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 10:00:37 AM
I was kind of struggling not to laugh at the scene of the Sons of the harpy in front of the gates just hanging out, murdering women and stuff, because you know, that is what they do. Outside the city gates. At that particular moment in time. For no particular reason.
the army being on high alert, it is doubtful that, in their light armor, they could stand a chance against the armored + shielded unsullied.
Given that the masters wanted to retake the city and not specifically burn it to the ground, being outside, terrorizing people was the best place for them.  had they been inside, they would have had to cope with the Unsullied on high alert + the fire balls raining on the city.  A tad too dangerous.  So what you have is people trapped inside the gates by the fire, and those who managed to flee outside are slaughtered in front of the gates, totally helpless.

The intent is to terrorize the people into submission.  And for that, they are doing their job well.  They could not know Daenarys was back with a horde of Dothraki, so, with the Unsullied + the fire inside, outside was the safest place for them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 20, 2016, 10:04:25 AM
So no more giants? :(
unless there was an injured one back at camp, no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 11:54:45 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 10:00:37 AM
I was kind of struggling not to laugh at the scene of the Sons of the harpy in front of the gates just hanging out, murdering women and stuff, because you know, that is what they do. Outside the city gates. At that particular moment in time. For no particular reason.
the army being on high alert, it is doubtful that, in their light armor, they could stand a chance against the armored + shielded unsullied.
Given that the masters wanted to retake the city and not specifically burn it to the ground, being outside, terrorizing people was the best place for them.  had they been inside, they would have had to cope with the Unsullied on high alert + the fire balls raining on the city.  A tad too dangerous.  So what you have is people trapped inside the gates by the fire, and those who managed to flee outside are slaughtered in front of the gates, totally helpless.

The intent is to terrorize the people into submission.  And for that, they are doing their job well.  They could not know Daenarys was back with a horde of Dothraki, so, with the Unsullied + the fire inside, outside was the safest place for them.

Yes, I am sure a bunch of women can get outside the gates, along with the actual Sons who can get outside the gates, to then be killed by those exact same Sons, but the army or police inside cannot possibly step the 20 feet necessary to get outside. The victims can, of course. And the Sons. They can both get there, and the Dothraki.

But only them. And it just so happens that the Dothraki show up at that one particular moment in time. Because presumably the Sons what...followed this small group of civilians out the gates, maybe with their masks hidden in their pants or something?

You have to work pretty hard to figure out a way to justify such lazy writing, and I commend you for the effort at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 01:16:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 11:54:45 AM
Yes, I am sure a bunch of women can get outside the gates, along with the actual Sons who can get outside the gates, to then be killed by those exact same Sons, but the army or police inside cannot possibly step the 20 feet necessary to get outside. The victims can, of course. And the Sons. They can both get there, and the Dothraki.
It's a large city.  There could have been people caught outside before the gates were closed.  They could have fled the city after the first rain of fire.

The army was concentrated in the palace, the easiest place to defend, as per last week's episode.  The Sons of the Harpy did not know that, so they had to play safe.

Quote
But only them. And it just so happens that the Dothraki show up at that one particular moment in time. Because presumably the Sons what...followed this small group of civilians out the gates, maybe with their masks hidden in their pants or something?
Remember in the arena, when the Sons of the Harpy jumped from everywhere with their masks?  Did you see any masks before that?

As for the Dothraki, Daenerys would have left them in reserve, ready to strike as she gives the signal.  Presumably, "When you see the dragons and the fleet burning, strike at them".  Or she sent a dispatch as she walked out to meet the representatives of the slavers telling the Dothraki to launch their attack immediatly.

Generally speaking, you don't want to commit your entire force in one strike, that is way too risky, you try to keep a reserve.  See Jon Snow going head on toward the Boltons, everyone agrees it was a dumb move because he saw red.

Quote
You have to work pretty hard to figure out a way to justify such lazy writing, and I commend you for the effort at least.
I don't see lazy writing.  We knew Mehreen would not fall, we knew Daenerys would arrive in the nick of time, with Drogo and the Dothrakis, to save the day.  She was one week away from Mehreen two weeks ago.  Once we saw her inside the temple, we knew she would free the other 2 dragons and attack the fleet.  We just did not know how it would shape exactly.

Did you really expect Mehreen to fall?  Daenerys reduced to slavery?  Tyrion's head on a pike?
C'mon.  This show will have a happy ending.  They need Daenerys to defeat the White Walkers, we saw it in Bran's vision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:23:57 PM
Of course I knew the outcome, that isn't the point at all.

The scene outside the gates made no sense, and was clearly thrown together. That can be true even though we all know how the overall story arc is playing out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 08:00:22 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on June 20, 2016, 12:11:45 AM
Why exactly is Daenerys letting the city burn for a couple of hours before acting?

The writing is pretty stupid sometimes.
deploy the troops, free the dragons, plan a counter attack, make sure everyone understands their part.

The thing is she doesn't need to do any of that - the dragons alone basically make everything else moot. And notice how it worked out - once she has control of the dragons as a military force, nothing else (in that particular situation) made any difference whatsoever. not the troops, not Tyrion, not Grey Worm. She could have ended the entire thing the moment she cam flying in on a dragon. Everything else was just theater.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 01:30:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
Everything else was just theater.

And that was Tyrion's plan.  To show them they are at her mercy.  Leave only one scared dude to return home and tell everyone how pointless it is to fight against her, and how lucky he is to be back alive.

The masters have had many setbacks before, but they always came back.  Now, they won't.

It's not enough to defeat the ennemy, they have to know they are hopelessly outmatched.  The dragons alone are not sufficient for that, those who don't see the dragons will think it an exageration.  Now you have a direct witness who peed his pants.  A noble.  She decapitated their leadership, leaving only one who is apparently an outsider to the other group.

With a bit of luck, and that Tyrion's speech to the soldiers, it will create unrest in their cities, and they will have a tougher times maintaining order.  Hence, their fighting capability is crippled on sea and on land.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 01:33:21 PM
I think the theater (everything else) was required for the collapse of the masters' armies. the dragons spent a lot of energy burning down one ship. I'm not sure there was a whole lot of fire left in them, at least not enough to burn the whole fleet down. the dothraki horde + killing the leaders + the dragon show = masters' military abandoning the attack.

the show is guilty of speeding things up and not showing every step, but that's more out of necessity to quickly resolve conflicts before moving onto other storylines.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 01:35:40 PM
exactly.   :yes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I think the dragons didn't burn the entire fleet down for one reason, and one reason only:

She wanted the ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 01:40:03 PM
rewatch the scene and look how much fire those three dragons spewed to kill one ship. during the scene, I was like, "how long can they really go on for?" remember, we haven't seen any indication that these are fully grown dragons. they're still children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
I thought they were just making a point - emphatically.

The books at least stress that dragonfire is hotter than regular fire, akin to that green napalm shit.

I am guessing a pretty short blast would start any wooden ship on fire rather quickly. Certainly enough to take it out of combat immediately.

In this case, they actually used the concussive power to actually not just burn the ship, but demolish it. Again, they were trying to make a point to the rest of the fleet - don't bother fighting, don't bother running, you all have a new employer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
Another thing - the idea that someone is going to shoot a fleeing man with an arrow at any kind of range? Stupid. Not possible.

Ok, Xeno.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
I thought they were just making a point - emphatically.

The books at least stress that dragonfire is hotter than regular fire, akin to that green napalm shit.

I am guessing a pretty short blast would start any wooden ship on fire rather quickly. Certainly enough to take it out of combat immediately.

In this case, they actually used the concussive power to actually not just burn the ship, but demolish it. Again, they were trying to make a point to the rest of the fleet - don't bother fighting, don't bother running, you all have a new employer.

how much fire do you think those dragons had left after their attack, whether it was intentionally emphatic or they were blowing their load?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 02:43:30 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
I thought they were just making a point - emphatically.

The books at least stress that dragonfire is hotter than regular fire, akin to that green napalm shit.

I am guessing a pretty short blast would start any wooden ship on fire rather quickly. Certainly enough to take it out of combat immediately.

In this case, they actually used the concussive power to actually not just burn the ship, but demolish it. Again, they were trying to make a point to the rest of the fleet - don't bother fighting, don't bother running, you all have a new employer.

how much fire do you think those dragons had left after their attack, whether it was intentionally emphatic or they were blowing their load?

No idea - but given the reports throughout history of the power of a dragons in combat, I've never heard any issue with them "running out" before the fight was over.

Of course, when you have a gigantic fucking dragon breathing fire on you, it is very possibly that the fight is over before you find out how long they can go.

On the other hand, Harrenhall was made of stone, and largely destroyed by dragonfire - it actually melted and made the stone "run like wax". So I am guessing that if dragons have enough fire to pretty much destroy the largest stone castle in all of Westeros, they have enough to handle pretty much any number of wooden ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 02:44:37 PM
Quoteremember, we haven't seen any indication that these are fully grown dragons. they're still children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2016, 02:48:28 PM
Dragons are not "children". They're younglings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 02:50:12 PM
It did take the dragons a hell of a lot of effort to burn one fucking ship.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 02:50:32 PM
Quotewe haven't seen any indication that these are fully grown dragons. they're still children.

So? You have no idea how fully grown they are, or what their capabilities are, or any of that. For all we know they could go one spitting fire all day long. Or maybe that was all they had.

The only data points we DO have is that dragons have never been reported to have any significant shortage of dragonfire such that it is militarily relevant. We know that dragons vary in size greatly - Dany's black if pretty damn big already (almost certainly larger than many dragons that came before him), and is certainly "military-sized" in that she is capable of riding him and using him.

Why people insist that they know things they cannot possibly know in an effort to excuse any lazy writing is beyond me...you can love the show and still recognize that the writing is far from perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 02:50:12 PM
It did take the dragons a hell of a lot of effort to burn one fucking ship.

It took them a lot of effort to destroy one ship quickly and thoroughly. The effort to simply start one on fire was equal to just the single initial blast. You can tell because the ship started right on fire immediately...:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 02:56:17 PM
we know they're like three years old or around there. we've seen how much fire a baby dragon can breathe (a tiny flame). we also have no reason to believe that dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2016, 02:58:01 PM
Maybe they have plot amounts??? :o

Mind. Blown.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2016, 02:58:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
Another thing - the idea that someone is going to shoot a fleeing man with an arrow at any kind of range? Stupid. Not possible. Fuck Rickon, run in anything other than a perfectly straight line and the shot becomes basically impossible.

First thing that came into my head in that scene was Peter Falk shouting "serpentine!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 02:59:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2016, 02:58:01 PM
Maybe they have plot amounts??? :o

Mind. Blown.

you clearly don't know dragon physics  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:02:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2016, 02:58:01 PM
Maybe they have plot amounts??? :o

Mind. Blown.

Of course they do - but lacroix knows better, and insists that they only have as much as you see them breathe and no more, because they are just toddler dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 20, 2016, 03:02:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2016, 02:58:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
Another thing - the idea that someone is going to shoot a fleeing man with an arrow at any kind of range? Stupid. Not possible. Fuck Rickon, run in anything other than a perfectly straight line and the shot becomes basically impossible.

First thing that came into my head in that scene was Peter Falk shouting "serpentine!"

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:04:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:02:41 PMOf course they do - but lacroix knows better, and insists that they only have as much as you see them breathe and no more, because they are just toddler dragons.

but I never said this, berkie
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:05:20 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:04:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:02:41 PMOf course they do - but lacroix knows better, and insists that they only have as much as you see them breathe and no more, because they are just toddler dragons.

but I never said this, berkie

You said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 20, 2016, 03:07:25 PM
Overall this episode was a letdown.

I appreciate the realism effort they (wanted) to put into the battle scene, like the shield wall thingie and especially showing the chaos through the ground level eyes of Jon, but the piles of bodies (just WTF), the deus ex machina Vale arriving in such a way that not even the characters seemed surprised too much.. It was just very lame apart from a moment here and there.

And yes the dothraki scene was absolutely cringe-worthy.

And stop pretending there is a detailed background system created to account for dragon breath reserves and rate of consumption.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:10:05 PM
they're biological creatures. look at the fire blast vs. how large they are. I don't think they could go on for hours. doesn't seem likely. if they have as much as you originally claimed (enough to burn down a whole fleet/army), then daenerys doesn't need to bother with an army. she can take them right now and win westeros. I think she needs an army because the dragons alone aren't powerful enough to do that yet. the massive dragons in the original targaryen invasion pretty much beat the seven kingdoms by themselves
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
So, to sum up - my entire point about the dragons is that the writers were, again, kind of lazy in how the handled her entire return. The dragons are the "perfect" weapon, and they can do pretty much everything.

Now, I guess we can argue about whether or not dragons can spit this much fire or that much fire, but that isn't the point.

We know that in fact they can spit exactly as much fire as the writers want them to spit - therefore, their imagined inability to spit MORE is not an excuse for lazy writing. In fact, IMO, the dragons being so perfectly powerful is lazy writing in and of itself. Like the Knights of the Vale, they just give the writers an easy out so they don't have to actually resolve the idiotic, stupid shit they have their characters do in the rather shallow (IMO) attempt to make the viewer think they are in real danger. It is lazy drama, and it doesn't even work.

Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.

The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 20, 2016, 03:14:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2016, 03:07:25 PM
Overall this episode was a letdown.

I appreciate the realism effort they (wanted) to put into the battle scene, like the shield wall thingie

Yeah about that - nothing we know about Westeros or the North suggests it would make sense that they would fight Greek hoplite style like that.  Especially given these are just disparate feudal elements only recently thrown together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:14:30 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:10:05 PM
they're biological creatures. look at the fire blast vs. how large they are. I don't think they could go on for hours. doesn't seem likely. if they have as much as you originally claimed (enough to burn down a whole fleet/army), then daenerys doesn't need to bother with an army. she can take them right now and win westeros. I think she needs an army because the dragons alone aren't powerful enough to do that yet. the massive dragons in the original targaryen invasion pretty much beat the seven kingdoms by themselves

They are magical creatures, and most definitely not simply "biological". You know how you can tell?

They breathe fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 20, 2016, 03:30:38 PM
I think there was a bit of a disconnect between the script and what we saw.
What people said seemed to suggest there was a fair bit of the attacking fleet left. What we saw was the dragons taking the whole thing to pieces. Stupidly.

It does somewhat put the whole the dragon has 3 heads thing into a weird place that dany can lead all 3 like that....


The dothraki....meh. I don't see the same problems people here do.
It makes sense that people would be trying to flee the city and that the harpies would be killing them as they go.
What I wonder though is- do we really trust the dothraki?
Why would they target just the harpies and not get to work raping and pillaging the people?
Sure. They're loyal to Dany. But that's the way even regular pre 20th century armies work let alone a culture based around raping and pillaging.
Quote
Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.
I dunno, I somewhat thought he might.
It would be quite clever in light of all the "Jon is dead" comments before the series began...yes he came back to life but he died again.
Could also be quite interesting for showing him losing his identity.


And Dany villain origin- definitely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:31:32 PM
so,

QuoteYou said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

you are saying this? I'm not following your argument.

if dani's dragons currently have the same amount of fire breathing ability as the targ conqueror's dragons, then why doesn't she fly over to westeros and seize the kingdom?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 03:33:01 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:31:32 PM
so,

QuoteYou said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

you are saying this? I'm not following your argument.

if dani's dragons currently have the same amount of fire breathing ability as the targ conqueror's dragons, then why doesn't she fly over to westeros and seize the kingdom?

Because dragons are a purely offensive weapon and cannot hold territory. :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:37:28 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:31:32 PM
so,

QuoteYou said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

you are saying this? I'm not following your argument.

Of course not, which is why I responded to you claiming I did by playing along with the "lets make strawmen!" game. It seemed fun.

Quote

if dani's dragons currently have the same amount of fire breathing ability as the targ conqueror's dragons, then why doesn't she fly over to westeros and seize the kingdom?

Because she needs troops as well as dragons. You can't just incinerate everyone. Also, she doesn't seem the "burn them all to ash" sort.

Presumably she wants to actually rule, and not just go kill a lot of people. For that she needs an army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 03:43:38 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2016, 03:07:25 PM
the deus ex machina Vale arriving in such a way that not even the characters seemed surprised too much..
Ramsey was surprised.  Sansa was not, for obvious reasons.  Jon and Thormund were not, because they discussed it before, when Jon cut Sansa short as she was urging him to wait.

Quote
And stop pretending there is a detailed background system created to account for dragon breath reserves and rate of consumption.
No one pretends that.

We do pretend that what Berkut sees as lazy writing is totally logical.  They didn't just need to defeat the ennemy, they wanted them to know they were defeated.  And they wanted the ships for themselves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 20, 2016, 03:46:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:14:30 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:10:05 PM
they're biological creatures. look at the fire blast vs. how large they are. I don't think they could go on for hours. doesn't seem likely. if they have as much as you originally claimed (enough to burn down a whole fleet/army), then daenerys doesn't need to bother with an army. she can take them right now and win westeros. I think she needs an army because the dragons alone aren't powerful enough to do that yet. the massive dragons in the original targaryen invasion pretty much beat the seven kingdoms by themselves

They are magical creatures, and most definitely not simply "biological". You know how you can tell?

They breathe fire.

Also, they fly.  There is nothing realistic about dragons.  Anyway arguing about the "realism" of dragons is an idiot.  Moreover, they are plot devices.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Martin's guidance over the show has been really limited the last two years, from what I have gleaned by public statements and the like.  And the last episode he wrote was back in season 4.  I am sure they still consult with him every now and then, but he has publicly and repeatedly stated that the two stories are different beasts at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:53:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 03:33:01 PMBecause dragons are a purely offensive weapon and cannot hold territory. :nerd:

westeros was conquered with three dragons and 1,600-3,000 men. dani has had more than that for awhile. in the books, there's lots of discussion about how the dragons aren't yet fully grown. this suggests the dragons don't have the full strength of aegon's dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 20, 2016, 03:55:21 PM
It's not clear to me that katmai the dragon would be a superior weapon of war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 03:53:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 03:33:01 PMBecause dragons are a purely offensive weapon and cannot hold territory. :nerd:

westeros was conquered with three dragons and 1,600-3,000 men. dani has had more than that for awhile. in the books, there's lots of discussion about how the dragons aren't yet fully grown. this suggests the dragons don't have the full strength of aegon's dragons.

aegonstartedtheconquestwithroughlysixteenhundredtroopsbuthedidnotendtheconquestwiththatmany. hehadwellovertenthousandbythetimetheconquestwasoverwiththankstovariouslordsswearingfealtytohim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 03:58:03 PM
I have a feeling many people do not really understand what "deus ex machina" means.

If someone is saved by a third party that has been telegraphed for weeks, that's empathically not what "deus ex machina" is. For a rescue to count as "deus ex machina" it must be unexpected and abrupt. Knights of the Vale showing up to help after 3 episodes of being referenced is not that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:58:47 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Martin's guidance over the show has been really limited the last two years, from what I have gleaned by public statements and the like.  And the last episode he wrote was back in season 4.  I am sure they still consult with him every now and then, but he has publicly and repeatedly stated that the two stories are different beasts at this point.

I gotta think the overall arc hasn't really shifted though from the story he wants to tell.

Like I don't think the books are going to end up in a completely different place than the show, even if they both get there rather differently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 20, 2016, 03:59:31 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Martin's guidance over the show has been really limited the last two years, from what I have gleaned by public statements and the like.  And the last episode he wrote was back in season 4.  I am sure they still consult with him every now and then, but he has publicly and repeatedly stated that the two stories are different beasts at this point.

Yeah, one will end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 03:58:03 PM
I have a feeling many people do not really understand what "deus ex machina" means.

If someone is saved by a third party that has been telegraphed for weeks, that's empathically not what "deus ex machina" is. For a rescue to count as "deus ex machina" it must be unexpected and abrupt. Knights of the Vale showing up to help after 3 episodes of being referenced is not that.

I have a feeling at least one person does not really understand what "many" means.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 20, 2016, 04:00:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 20, 2016, 03:59:31 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Martin's guidance over the show has been really limited the last two years, from what I have gleaned by public statements and the like.  And the last episode he wrote was back in season 4.  I am sure they still consult with him every now and then, but he has publicly and repeatedly stated that the two stories are different beasts at this point.

Yeah, one will end.

No! Just two books to go. HE CAN DO IT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 04:02:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:58:47 PM
I gotta think the overall arc hasn't really shifted though from the story he wants to tell.

Like I don't think the books are going to end up in a completely different place than the show, even if they both get there rather differently.

I think that while the major events might well end up the same or very similar, the way that the story approaches those major events is of huge importance.  The heavy modification of Septon Meribald into Brother Ray, for instance, shifts the anti-war tone quite a bit. 

They did, fortunately, maintain some of the anti-fantasy tropeness of the overall story by showing how bloody and chaotic the battle was at Winterfell, however.  I greatly appreciated that they didn't just make it into a glorious victory, even if the Rohirrim saved the day at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 03:58:03 PM
I have a feeling many people do not really understand what "deus ex machina" means.

If someone is saved by a third party that has been telegraphed for weeks, that's empathically not what "deus ex machina" is. For a rescue to count as "deus ex machina" it must be unexpected and abrupt. Knights of the Vale showing up to help after 3 episodes of being referenced is not that.

It certainly is, since they show up at the last moment to solve an otherwise unsolveable problem.

And they have not been referenced as being on their way at all, indeed, the only reference is that they would NOT be coming, because Sansa refused them. We all know that was bullshit because as usual the writers don't even do THAT well.

But this is classic deus ex. Jon and friends are hemmed in, about to die, nothing can save them, OH WAIT HERE COMES THE KNIGHTS AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOMENT TO SAVE THEM FROM THEIR STUPID!

Yeah, the writers completely failed to actually create the tension they were trying to create with as little effort as possible, but that is because they kind of suck at that, not because it was something other than shitty writing.

If Jon knew the Knights were coming, why in the world did he attack at that time? That makes him even more stupid.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 20, 2016, 04:04:13 PM
What will Littlefinger demand of Sansa next episode:  sex and/or marriage?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 04:05:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 04:02:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:58:47 PM
I gotta think the overall arc hasn't really shifted though from the story he wants to tell.

Like I don't think the books are going to end up in a completely different place than the show, even if they both get there rather differently.

I think that while the major events might well end up the same or very similar, the way that the story approaches those major events is of huge importance.  The heavy modification of Septon Meribald into Brother Ray, for instance, shifts the anti-war tone quite a bit. 

They did, fortunately, maintain some of the anti-fantasy tropeness of the overall story by showing how bloody and chaotic the battle was at Winterfell, however.  I greatly appreciated that they didn't just make it into a glorious victory, even if the Rohirrim saved the day at the end.

True - I actually liked that part of it quite a bit. It was very "SPR"ish in its portrayal of some really brutal fighting. Nothing noble or admirable about it, just plain butchery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 04:06:02 PM
What does it matter what Littlefinger would demand?  The Northern armies are victorious thanks to him, but little more.  Unless he is going to suddenly flex his muscles and have the Knights of the Vale occupy Winterfell, what can he do?  Sansa has the power in their relationship.

I think it's possible she will marry the sickly heir to the Vale, however.  That would cement her power over both realms and side-step Littlefinger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 04:08:12 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 20, 2016, 04:04:13 PM
What will Littlefinger demand of Sansa next episode:  sex and/or marriage?

At least the first, I suspect.

I am hoping that Sansa has finally reached the end of her arc though, and she will pretty much be all "Yeah, thanks for the help, much appreciated. But you know, I suspect that Robert likes me quite a bit more than he likes you, so how about you just fuck off? What are you going to do about it - go to the Knights and tell them I wouldn't put out? Also, I wonder...how much do the Knights actually *like* you anyway? Shall we find out?"

Which would trigger a very satisfying cold war between her and Littlefinger, which would be fun.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 20, 2016, 04:12:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 03:57:49 PMaegonstartedtheconquestwithroughlysixteenhundredtroopsbuthedidnotendtheconquestwiththatmany. hehadwellovertenthousandbythetimetheconquestwasoverwiththankstovariouslordsswearingfealtytohim.

I know
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 20, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2016, 03:58:03 PM
I have a feeling many people do not really understand what "deus ex machina" means.

If someone is saved by a third party that has been telegraphed for weeks, that's empathically not what "deus ex machina" is. For a rescue to count as "deus ex machina" it must be unexpected and abrupt. Knights of the Vale showing up to help after 3 episodes of being referenced is not that.

It certainly is, since they show up at the last moment to solve an otherwise unsolveable problem.

And they have not been referenced as being on their way at all, indeed, the only reference is that they would NOT be coming, because Sansa refused them. We all know that was bullshit because as usual the writers don't even do THAT well.

But this is classic deus ex. Jon and friends are hemmed in, about to die, nothing can save them, OH WAIT HERE COMES THE KNIGHTS AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOMENT TO SAVE THEM FROM THEIR STUPID!

Yeah, the writers completely failed to actually create the tension they were trying to create with as little effort as possible, but that is because they kind of suck at that, not because it was something other than shitty writing.

If Jon knew the Knights were coming, why in the world did he attack at that time? That makes him even more stupid.

No, it isn't.  Marty's right, you were to busy looking for "non-tribal" information to maintain your "non-tribe" to realize it.  A "classic deus ex machina" would have a god appear to fix things cause that's what it refers to.  Having a military unit that was referenced several times appearing unexpectedly on the battlefield does not qualify.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 04:44:56 PM
So Jon was beaten, badly, by Ramsey Bolton in the field. Ramsey was clearly the superior commander - indeed, it wasn't even close. But he is saved in the end by the timely arrival of the Knights, and Ramsey was screwed through dumb bad luck on his part.

Arya got her ass kicked because she wasn't bright enough to realize that the nice little old lady was an assassin, even though she new that they were coming after her, and would be disguised as someone else. She is then chased around after her benefactor is killed, beaten to a pulp, and somehow off screen kills the chick  who has kicked her ass consistently because she found her sword. Apparently having a sword, something incredibly common, is all that was keeping her from being able to beat blondie. too bad Blondie didn't realize that.

Sansa walks right into a marriage with Ramsey, with no plan, no strategy, no idea at all how such a marriage can possibly end in any way other than disaster, and of course it does exactly that. She gets away from dumb luck because Theon helps her and they, just in the nick of time of course, run into Brienne.

Daneyr's is the only protagonist in the show who is not a complete moron, who seems to actually do things, rather than have things happen she has no control over. But even then they cannot seem to avoid falling into the same manufactured crisis with eye rolling resolutions. Like ultra flammable huts. At least SHE started the damn thing on fire though.

What is annoying about all this is that it appears to all be in the service of the writers needing to create artificial tension and drama by repeatedly putting their "heroes" into situations that they cannot possibly get out of, but of course we know that they will through some stupid, dumb luck or ridiculous bullshit like "Oh, this actress knows how to stop guy wounds from becoming septic! Surely! Because she used to stab her boyfriends all the time! Oh look, now she is dead, isn't that terribly sad?".

I think the writers, for the most part, are relying on all the *other* things about the show that are so good to carry it - acting, sets, production, the overarching story and our commitment to it. The actual writing itself is consistently lazy and amateurish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 05:05:27 PM
I wouldn't call the arrival of the Vale knights bad luck for Ramsey.  The effect of actions (such as raping Sansa) on alliances and potential enemies should be part of strategic calculations.  Plus a more competent military commander would have had intelligence of the massing of forces at Moat Cailin (which is within Northern territory) and would have deployed outriders to prevent being surprised while engaged with Jon's army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 05:12:35 PM
Fair enough, but it was certainly bad luck in the context of that battle. He had it thoroughly won on the basis of simply being a hell of a lot better commander than anyone on the Snow side.

And intelligence, like the ability of Dragons, is completely based on what is convenient for the writers. Had they wanted to make it clear that Ramsey lost *because* he didn't post outriders, or pay attention to what was going on, they would need to make that clear.

And they could have - they could have made the battle work out basically the same, but have the appearance of the knights actually be part of Jons plan - keeping them hidden until the critical moment, and drawing Ramsey into a ill advised attack based on faulty assumptions.

Nope, that wouldn't provide any fake drama, can't have that! Instead just have Jon act like a complete fucking moron who frankly deserved to get killed, and then have the knight sweep in and save the day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 20, 2016, 05:18:10 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 19, 2016, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2016, 10:15:27 PMThe battle was kinda crap.

why do you think this? vale knights saving the day?

The Jon Snow Is An Idiot start to it, then the horse shoe pike wall, and the huge mountain of bodies... I liked the way they showed some first-person views of how confusing everything is in a battle, but the overall battle sequence just wasn't very satisfying.

The charge of the Rohirrim was expected, so that didn't bother me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 06:25:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.
Last week, people complained about the Blackfish being "revived" and just killed off screen...

No, I did not wondered if Jon was really going to die.  I did not think he was going to die after being revived in the 1st episode.  I will not speak for everyone, but I assume the vast majority of the viewers knew this battle was coming, how it would go, how it would end.

Yes it is unimaginative.  But I just don't know how they could have done it differently and still make it work like they did.  Rickon's death could have been done differently, that was a pretty stupid way to die, running in a straight line like that.  But he had to die.  Otherwise, there would have been a challenge to Sansa's rule, since he is a boy.  Just like in the books there is a form of challenge to Daenerys, that will eventually disapear.


Quote
The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.
Do you consider the original work (the books) to be a masterpiece of english litterature?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on June 20, 2016, 08:36:05 PM
The last episode was visually great, but too many eye-rolling moments.  Not as many episode eight thankfully. 

One of the parts I didn't like was Ramsay firing on his own knights.  It fits with his character sure, but as knights wouldn't those men have been nobles loyal to his house and actually have brought their own men to the battle.  I get that Ramsay is a psycho but I don't think fear alone would inspire such loyalty particularly on a battlefield when a knife in the back could happen without much repercussion. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 09:17:11 PM
I think we should all agree to honor the dead by spelling Ramsay's name correctly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 20, 2016, 10:01:45 PM
I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As to the "wall of the dead" apparently they were inspired by photographs and accounts from American Civil War battles of similar occurrences.  Apparently no one informed them that the tactics and weaponry were quite different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 06:25:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.
Last week, people complained about the Blackfish being "revived" and just killed off screen...

No, I did not wondered if Jon was really going to die.  I did not think he was going to die after being revived in the 1st episode.  I will not speak for everyone, but I assume the vast majority of the viewers knew this battle was coming, how it would go, how it would end.

Yes it is unimaginative.  But I just don't know how they could have done it differently and still make it work like they did.  Rickon's death could have been done differently, that was a pretty stupid way to die, running in a straight line like that.  But he had to die.

You really could not have imagined how it could possibly be done any differently? That is something of a lack of imagination. I could imagine all kinds of ways to do it differently.

Example, and I am literally thinking off the top of my head.

Jon and Sansa know the Knights are coming, and plan accordingly. Set it up so that Ramsay is using Rickon to blackmail them into not acting. In fact, set up a scene such that Ramsay is counting on Sansa's unwillingness to risk her brother to save himself, and then have Sansa coldly let Rickon die rather than give up her need for vengeance. Indeed, have her use Rickon's life, and spend it, to allow their own plan to spring the Knights on Ramsay to work.

That would be powerful, and really drive home the message of the entire set of stories. Even the best of the good guys will still sacrifice their loved ones for their personal goals. Of course, that takes a bit more work than "Oh lets have Jon be super stupid and get saved at the last moment when everyone is sure he is going to die!"

Quote

Otherwise, there would have been a challenge to Sansa's rule, since he is a boy.  Just like in the books there is a form of challenge to Daenerys, that will eventually disapear.


Quote
The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.
Do you consider the original work (the books) to be a masterpiece of english litterature?

Masterpiece of English literature? No, not really - does anyone?

I do think they are some of the most entertaining fiction I have ever read though, and I've read a lot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 10:13:12 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2016, 10:01:45 PM
I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As much as I would have a loved a "The North Remembers"-style betrayal to turn the tide (which, by the way, I think we're going to get next episode, and I still think will end up winning Stannis the Battle of Winterfell in the next book), they can't do that in the show, because that would prevent Tormund from living up to his Giantsbane name by killing Umber (the Northern giant) single-handed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2016, 10:13:53 PM
This season may be the worst.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 10:16:08 PM
At least in terms of writing quality, I agree.  It's still not terrible, and still has great elements, but none of the previous season's sense of surprise or amazement is there.  It has been a very A->B->C->D style of progression thus far, with nothing in terms of misdirection for the viewers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 20, 2016, 10:22:09 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2016, 10:01:45 PM
I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As to the "wall of the dead" apparently they were inspired by photographs and accounts from American Civil War battles of similar occurrences.  Apparently no one informed them that the tactics and weaponry were quite different.

I suspect that pikes combat would result in piles of corpses.  Not a pile that's as tall as man, but still piles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 21, 2016, 01:50:52 AM
I was expecting that in the battle we would have seen some of the Bolton side change sides.
Sit on the sidelines during the battle and then when it looks like things are going jons way join on his side.
It would fit with the whole historic analogue thing grrm likes. Guess  the book version shall do this



I wonder how they will deal with little finger now.
I mean. When you think about it he now rules the north. The north has lost most of its fighting men and there he is. Open door to winter fell,  with all these shiny knights.


Quote from: PRC on June 20, 2016, 08:36:05 PM
The last episode was visually great, but too many eye-rolling moments.  Not as many episode eight thankfully. 

One of the parts I didn't like was Ramsay firing on his own knights.  It fits with his character sure, but as knights wouldn't those men have been nobles loyal to his house and actually have brought their own men to the battle.  I get that Ramsay is a psycho but I don't think fear alone would inspire such loyalty particularly on a battlefield when a knife in the back could happen without much repercussion. 

Actually... to think about it this adds more sense to his firing on his own men.
Rather than established lords who may have ruled under the starks or the heirs of such people he replaces the Lords of the north with the younger brothers, baby sons, etc... far easier to rule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 02:19:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 04:03:18 PM
If Jon knew the Knights were coming, why in the world did he attack at that time? That makes him even more stupid.

Who said anything about Jon knowing the Knights were coming? Only because a character has no knowledge that rescue is coming does not make it "deus ex machina".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 05:12:35 PM
Fair enough, but it was certainly bad luck in the context of that battle. He had it thoroughly won on the basis of simply being a hell of a lot better commander than anyone on the Snow side.

And intelligence, like the ability of Dragons, is completely based on what is convenient for the writers. Had they wanted to make it clear that Ramsey lost *because* he didn't post outriders, or pay attention to what was going on, they would need to make that clear.

And they could have - they could have made the battle work out basically the same, but have the appearance of the knights actually be part of Jons plan - keeping them hidden until the critical moment, and drawing Ramsey into a ill advised attack based on faulty assumptions.

Nope, that wouldn't provide any fake drama, can't have that! Instead just have Jon act like a complete fucking moron who frankly deserved to get killed, and then have the knight sweep in and save the day.

I think you are misreading the tropes here. The arrival of the Knights of the Vale was not about "the knights sweeping in and saving the day". It was about Littlefinger waiting until the Northerners virtually slaughter each other, before sweeping in and finishing off the stragglers.

I haven't for a second believed as you seem to do that it was a Helmsdeep situation, with Littlefinger riding at a breakneck speed and arriving just at the last moment so he could  save the day - I think he had plenty of time and was waiting for the last moment to arrive, before Ramsay's total victory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 02:30:14 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 20, 2016, 06:25:08 PM
Rickon's death could have been done differently, that was a pretty stupid way to die, running in a straight line like that.

Well if he zig-zagged, Ramsay would have simply commanded his archers to do a blanket fire. So from some perspective, it makes sense to try to outrun the range as fast as possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 02:32:23 AM
Quote from: PRC on June 20, 2016, 08:36:05 PM
The last episode was visually great, but too many eye-rolling moments.  Not as many episode eight thankfully. 

One of the parts I didn't like was Ramsay firing on his own knights.  It fits with his character sure, but as knights wouldn't those men have been nobles loyal to his house and actually have brought their own men to the battle.  I get that Ramsay is a psycho but I don't think fear alone would inspire such loyalty particularly on a battlefield when a knife in the back could happen without much repercussion.

Again, I disagree. It is not a psycho tactics. It's a legitimate military tactics if a bit on a ruthless side. And his "excuse" could have been "if I didn't do it, we would lose so we would all be dead anyway".

And the noble lords fighting by his side know that if they lose and survive, they are going to be deemed traitors and/or overrun by hordes of wildlings. It's not your typical battle between noble lords from the Bolton side (just as it isn't from the Stark side).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 02:44:27 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2016, 10:01:45 PM
I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As to the "wall of the dead" apparently they were inspired by photographs and accounts from American Civil War battles of similar occurrences.  Apparently no one informed them that the tactics and weaponry were quite different.

A "North remembers" betrayal would have been cool - but why would they ever do it? They are on the ostensibly winning side. They are facing a horde of Wildlings and the man who brought them here. And they think they can rise higher under a Bolton than under a Stark. There is absolutely no reason for Umbers or anyone else to betray Ramsay until the Knights of the Vale show up.

I think you are thinking in terms of dramatic payoff and not realism - which is not compatible with the usual GoT narrative.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on June 21, 2016, 04:41:41 AM
I thought the battle scenes were generally dreadful.  Particular lowlights were the ridiculous mounds of bodies, the super disciplined shield wall manoeuvre executed while the wildlings just stood around and watched and the nick of time attack by the knights of the vale in which they knock over the Bolton forces (all armed with pikes) like dominos. 

This season started so well but as declined badly in the last couple of episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 05:26:51 AM
I thought the battle was very good.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 21, 2016, 05:31:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 05:26:51 AM
I thought the battle was very good.  :huh:

Visually it is, and it works great for a TV show, but it's better not to look too deeply into the details IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 05:55:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 02:32:23 AM

Again, I disagree. It is not a psycho tactics. It's a legitimate military tactics if a bit on a ruthless side. And his "excuse" could have been "if I didn't do it, we would lose so we would all be dead anyway".

I quite agree.  Remember that his troops have armor, and the Wildlings do not, so arrow fire into the melee will disproportionately effect the Wildlings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 21, 2016, 06:02:45 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 19, 2016, 10:50:30 PM
One of the things that makes grumbler who he is is the fact he can never be wholly satisfied with anything except Babylon 5.

While B5 has a number of problems (mostly caused by external factors), it's the best-written epic TV series of all time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 07:19:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 20, 2016, 10:07:23 PM
You really could not have imagined how it could possibly be done any differently? That is something of a lack of imagination.
How long have we known each another on these forums? 10? 15 years?  You only recently noticed that!? :P

Quote
Jon and Sansa know the Knights are coming, and plan accordingly. Set it up so that Ramsay is using Rickon to blackmail them into not acting. In fact, set up a scene such that Ramsay is counting on Sansa's unwillingness to risk her brother to save himself, and then have Sansa coldly let Rickon die rather than give up her need for vengeance. Indeed, have her use Rickon's life, and spend it, to allow their own plan to spring the Knights on Ramsay to work.
Jon doesn't know about the Knights, she went behind his back because he did not listen to her.
And she did abandon Rickon, when she said he was already dead while Jon wanted to save him.
The old Sansa would never have let that happen like that, or she would have totally lost it on the battlefield.

Quote
Masterpiece of English literature? No, not really - does anyone?
I don't know.  I've been told by people it was crap litterature, but I liked it.
I was just wondering if you were the Grumbler type where any kind of variation from the source material and all intended consequences are automatically bad.
It turns out we just have a diffence of opinion :)

Quote
I do think they are some of the most entertaining fiction I have ever read though, and I've read a lot.
Yeah, it's better than most Star Wars books I've read. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on June 21, 2016, 07:27:04 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 20, 2016, 10:13:12 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 20, 2016, 10:01:45 PM
I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As much as I would have a loved a "The North Remembers"-style betrayal to turn the tide (which, by the way, I think we're going to get next episode, and I still think will end up winning Stannis the Battle of Winterfell in the next book), they can't do that in the show, because that would prevent Tormund from living up to his Giantsbane name by killing Umber (the Northern giant) single-handed.

Is that important?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 07:33:58 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 21, 2016, 04:41:41 AM
I thought the battle scenes were generally dreadful.  Particular lowlights were the ridiculous mounds of bodies, the super disciplined shield wall manoeuvre executed while the wildlings just stood around and watched and the nick of time attack by the knights of the vale in which they knock over the Bolton forces (all armed with pikes) like dominos. 
Mound of bodies: 8000 soldiers on the field, near all concentrated in one spot and archers firing constantly.  You are expecting no bodies?
Shield wall: if you're an untrained wildling (and that is a mistake from Jon, he was on the other side, and he said it: "discipline beats numbers 9 out 10 times", and he has neither the discipline, neither the numbers) facing this shield wall, how do you react exactly?  You can't flank them, they sort of surround you.
The spearmen: how do you think the phalanx of ancient times were defeated?  Infantry on one side, cavalry flanking them from the rear.  One rank has the shield, the other have the spears.  If you turn around to defend against a sudden cavalry charge, you leave your other side open to infantry attack that can remove the shield from the bearers.
 
Quote
I wonder how they will deal with little finger now.
I mean. When you think about it he now rules the north. The north has lost most of its fighting men and there he is. Open door to winter fell,  with all these shiny knights.
I'm guessing he'll propose marriage to Sansa.  And maybe attack the Frey before going back North.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 07:51:54 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 07:19:17 AM
I was just wondering if you were the Grumbler type where any kind of variation from the source material and all intended consequences are automatically bad.

If you are going to take cheap shots out of the blue, you will look less moronic if you try to make them somewhat believable.  I have consistently held that the show's deviations from the books have mostly been necessary and justified due to the medium and the time constraints.  That's pretty much the opposite of this lie you are trying to sell, and it says a lot about the "Viper type" that you would choose to post a calumny rather than pass up what may have seemed a good chance to take a cheap shot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 08:07:58 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on June 21, 2016, 06:02:45 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 19, 2016, 10:50:30 PM
One of the things that makes grumbler who he is is the fact he can never be wholly satisfied with anything except Babylon 5.

While B5 has a number of problems (mostly caused by external factors), it's the best-written epic TV series of all time.

I would say it is possibly the best original TV epic (so excluding GoT, which is based on books).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 21, 2016, 08:11:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 08:07:58 AM
I would say it is possibly the best original TV epic (so excluding GoT, which is based on books).

Agreed. Plus, GRRM needs to write.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on June 21, 2016, 08:45:01 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 07:33:58 AM
Quote from: Gups on June 21, 2016, 04:41:41 AM
I thought the battle scenes were generally dreadful.  Particular lowlights were the ridiculous mounds of bodies, the super disciplined shield wall manoeuvre executed while the wildlings just stood around and watched and the nick of time attack by the knights of the vale in which they knock over the Bolton forces (all armed with pikes) like dominos. 
Mound of bodies: 8000 soldiers on the field, near all concentrated in one spot and archers firing constantly.  You are expecting no bodies?
Shield wall: if you're an untrained wildling (and that is a mistake from Jon, he was on the other side, and he said it: "discipline beats numbers 9 out 10 times", and he has neither the discipline, neither the numbers) facing this shield wall, how do you react exactly?  You can't flank them, they sort of surround you.
The spearmen: how do you think the phalanx of ancient times were defeated?  Infantry on one side, cavalry flanking them from the rear.  One rank has the shield, the other have the spears.  If you turn around to defend against a sudden cavalry charge, you leave your other side open to infantry attack that can remove the shield from the bearers.
 
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Eh? Who said "no bodies"? These were mounds of bodies- they looked about 10 foot high.  I'm really no expert on medieval warfare but I can't see how this happens on an open field.

My complaint about the shield wall is the way it was formed with zero interference from the enemy who are just standing around watching like its the trooping of the colour.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 08:51:08 AM
The firing arrows into your own troops kind of bothered me as well, but on the other hand I've always thought that Ramsay was a ridiculous character anyway.

Nobody would follow that guy. The way he acts is in direct contradiction to the social structure he exists in, which is based on loyalty, charisma, honor, and structure. People don't tolerate lords who just butcher everyone else, at least not openly. You have to have some ability to instill some sense of loyalty in your followers, they have to *like* you at some level, especially if you do NOT have the social status granted by birth to lean on. Joffrey can get away with being a piece of shit (oh wait, no he can't, he get killed for being a piece of shit that nobody liked) for a while. Ramsay could not.

The idea that any of these lords would follow an obvious psychopath is ridiculous - but if you can grant that they will follow him after he spends his free time randomly torturing women and others, after he just kills any number of people including his own father just because, then fuck it? Why not believe they will keep following him after he orders his archers to kill your own brothers and cousins and friends.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 21, 2016, 08:51:29 AM
Jon is a bad tactician, we knew that. Thormund states, in the episode, that he has never seen them fight & he does not know about encirclement tactics.

You are all a bunch of grognard wondering why 12th century low Count doesn't know about strategic warfare that he has no way to know about or as yet to be invented.

The show has gone thru countless moments teaching the audience that the only good strategist in the world is Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 09:05:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 21, 2016, 08:51:29 AM
Jon is a bad tactician, we knew that. Thormund states, in the episode, that he has never seen them fight & he does not know about encirclement tactics.

You are all a bunch of grognard wondering why 12th century low Count doesn't know about strategic warfare that he has no way to know about or as yet to be invented.

The show has gone thru countless moments teaching the audience that the only good strategist in the world is Tyrion.

I don't think that is true at all.

The problem isn't that nobody is a good strategist, it is that there are plenty of people who are supposed to be good who turn out to be morons because the writers care more about creating completely false tension than they do about telling a good story with consistent narratives. It doesn't even matter that some people are supposed to be great tacticians, because we know that the writers will just make them idiots as needed to serve their needs. Or brilliant (as in this case - there was never any reason to believe that Ramsay was some kind of brilliant battle commander, but no problem - he is now).

Jon is supposed be a good strategist/tactician. He is certainly experienced leading men in combat. Tywin was considered one of the best, and Jamie as well. Rob was certainly supposed to be surprisingly good, and he even beat Jamie.

Hell, that is a *great* example in fact, now that I think on it. They didn't feel a need to create some fake sense of imminent defeat every time Rob got in a battle, and nobody looks back on those shows and says "Gosh, that sucked! It would have been so much better if Rob had been about to die EVERY SINGLE TIME and then got saved by some external force swooping in at the last minute!" The early seasons battle stories were well done, and made sense, because the battlers served a need to tell a particular story, not a need to create drama and tension because the guy writing the story didn't know how to do so otherwise.

Of course, that was when they were aligning with Martin's story, rather than being off on their own.

I don't mind that the show has gone its own way - that pretty much had to happen. I don't mind that they've gotten rid of many characters, for example. Indeed, I think they've actually done a pretty good job in how they handled much of the things that had to happen to make this work on screen.

What bugs me is that the writing in many cases has been lazy and reverting back to standard Hollywood lowest denominator *boring* because it is just doing the same old boring shit that has been done over and over and over again. It is Hollywood Epic Story Telling 101, and hits all the same 1-2-3-4 touchpoints you see in all of these. Focus on action over story, the need to create tension for its own sake, etc., etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 09:05:56 AM
BTW, all my bitching doesn't change the fact that I love this show and look forward to every new episode like Sunday at 9pm is fucking Christmas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 09:51:41 AM
Berkut, I don't disagree with anything you are saying (though I'd disagree to some extent with the vehemence with which you put your points), but I am not sure that the writers for the show know of any other way to write than the whole "mounting tensions, near-disaster, resolution of the conflict" mode.  I do like your alternative suggestion of the other Houses betraying Ramsay Bolton at the height of the battle and having Littlefinger show up right when he is no longer needed.  However, I am somewhat convinced that the showrunners got a scare when they realized that Martin's complex plots were leading the show towards an ever-expanding scope and cost, and they over-reacted by just snipping a bunch of story lines (Dorne, The Faceless Men, Blackfish, Cleganebowl, etc) without any real explanation of why and how those elements were supposed to play out.

There is a lot of sloppy writing, I agree.  I am hoping that the writing and plotting will pick back up once the showrunners feel more comfortable with the story they have left to tell in the episodes they have left.  That might not happen, though; remember that Peter Jackson had the entire LotR trilogy already written out for him, and he didn't understand key elements of the story (like the fact that Aragorn was doing everything he could to make Sauron believe that he, Aragorn, had the Ring and was using it).

Agree that, flawed as it is, it is still a great show.  Production values remain high even when the writing lets the story down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 09:55:06 AM
So, is Cersei going to blow up King's Landing next week?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2016, 09:55:06 AM
So, is Cersei going to blow up King's Landing next week?

She will do something that kills Tommen.  The question is:  will the death be accidental, or deliberate?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2016, 10:02:24 AM
No.  She's going to blow up the Great Sept.  Blowing up the entire city doesn't help her, but nuking the High Sparrow and his followers will, at least short term.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 10:02:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 08:51:08 AM
The firing arrows into your own troops kind of bothered me as well, but on the other hand I've always thought that Ramsay was a ridiculous character anyway.

Nobody would follow that guy. The way he acts is in direct contradiction to the social structure he exists in, which is based on loyalty, charisma, honor, and structure. People don't tolerate lords who just butcher everyone else, at least not openly. You have to have some ability to instill some sense of loyalty in your followers, they have to *like* you at some level, especially if you do NOT have the social status granted by birth to lean on. Joffrey can get away with being a piece of shit (oh wait, no he can't, he get killed for being a piece of shit that nobody liked) for a while. Ramsay could not.

The idea that any of these lords would follow an obvious psychopath is ridiculous - but if you can grant that they will follow him after he spends his free time randomly torturing women and others, after he just kills any number of people including his own father just because, then fuck it? Why not believe they will keep following him after he orders his archers to kill your own brothers and cousins and friends.
Joffrey wasn't killed by a vassal.

I'm pretty sure there are lots of example of cruel, sadistic lords in history who got away with shit for a while.  All his antics were tolerated before he became a full lord, to a certain extent.  His father wasn't recognized as a kind man, though we don't know the specifics, only what Caytlin Stark says of him, and his banner.

His bastardiness is no longer an issue once his father recognizes him as his heir and the King legitimizes him.  That's like William the Conqueror, technically a bastard, who still became King or England after eliminating his opponents on the battlefield and repressing the North of England.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on June 21, 2016, 10:05:01 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 09:05:56 AM
BTW, all my bitching doesn't change the fact that I love this show and look forward to every new episode like Sunday at 9pm is fucking Christmas.

Me too but I suspect if they'd been this sloppy early on in the series I would not have invested so heavily
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 21, 2016, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 08:51:08 AM
Nobody would follow that guy. The way he acts is in direct contradiction to the social structure he exists in, which is based on loyalty, charisma, honor, and structure. People don't tolerate lords who just butcher everyone else, at least not openly. You have to have some ability to instill some sense of loyalty in your followers, they have to *like* you at some level, especially if you do NOT have the social status granted by birth to lean on. Joffrey can get away with being a piece of shit (oh wait, no he can't, he get killed for being a piece of shit that nobody liked) for a while. Ramsay could not.

True to a point - i.e. even hypothetically had Ramsey won the battle it's hard to see him prospering long-term.  But in the short term, it's plausible that he succeeds because of the completely disordered situation in the North, the huge power vacuum left by the fall of the Starks and the ironborn raids, and the fact that Ramsey has the backing of the crown, the title of WotN, and alliance with the Lannisters and Freys.  The show makes it clear that those northern houses that support him are doing so not because they are big fans of Ramsey but because of separate agendas of their own; most the houses appear to be taking the Glover approach of waiting and seeing without exposing themselves to losses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 21, 2016, 12:16:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 09:05:08 AM
Jon is supposed be a good strategist/tactician. He is certainly experienced leading men in combat.

He's still pretty young/inexperienced, and successfully defending a castle isn't the same as leading a field army.
Anyway, it seems like his plan was sound, his error was letting emotions get the better of him, which is not exactly out of character, nor unknown in the annals of history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 21, 2016, 12:16:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 09:05:08 AM
Jon is supposed be a good strategist/tactician. He is certainly experienced leading men in combat.

He's still pretty young/inexperienced, and successfully defending a castle isn't the same as leading a field army.
Anyway, it seems like his plan was sound, his error was letting emotions get the better of him, which is not exactly out of character, nor unknown in the annals of history.

Translation: He was a moron, an Ramsay out thought him.

You are agreeing with me here. My point is that the character of Jon was intended to be a pretty bright guy who was something of a natural leader of soldiers.

Certainly if they had written this in such a way that Jon beat Ramsay by out-thinking him, we would not all be sitting here saying "Oh man, that makes no sense! Jon is just a kid, no way he could beat Ramsay!"

His plan was fine, but plans don't matter if the moment the fight starts you just do exactly what the other guy obviously wants you to do. my beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 21, 2016, 12:50:09 PM
jon got baited in the books. minsky is right, jon lets his emotions run wild sometimes.

"natural leader of soldiers" doesn't mean he always picks the best strategy. he can lead men, and men look up to him. that's all.

Quotemy beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing

lol
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 01:24:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Translation: He was a moron, an Ramsay out thought him.

You are agreeing with me here. My point is that the character of Jon was intended to be a pretty bright guy who was something of a natural leader of soldiers.

Certainly if they had written this in such a way that Jon beat Ramsay by out-thinking him, we would not all be sitting here saying "Oh man, that makes no sense! Jon is just a kid, no way he could beat Ramsay!"

His plan was fine, but plans don't matter if the moment the fight starts you just do exactly what the other guy obviously wants you to do. my beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing.

I'm not sure you can have it both ways:  if Jon had outsmarted Ramsay, you'd complain that the writers lasy because they just followed the same old boring formula used in every other hero's story.  Since he didn't outsmart him (or, at least, allowed his temper to get the better of him after Ramsay started his charge - which is just what Jon's plan called for), you call the writers lazy because, if Jon's plan doesn't work as expected, it must be because "he was a moron."  The writers can't win either way on that complaint, so i don't think you are being reasonable.

Now, there were other ways to add twists to the battle and not make it strain credulity (like "let's not have Jon's army just stand there while being surrounded") whose absence can more reasonably be blamed on lazy writing.  The timing of the Knights' charge would have been far more believable if they'd just taken thirty seconds to show Littlefinger and the commander of the knights observing the battle, with the commander asking "now?" and Littlefinger saying "not yet, the situation isn't ripe."  That would show Littlefinger at his conniving best and make the last-minute rescue credible (plus set up future conflicts by allowing Sansa or Jon to find out that he had delayed his attack).  Things like that could add complexity at no extra cost.

Yeah, and get rid of the huge pile of dead, too.  Who in their right minds would say "hey, wouldn't it be a good idea if I climbed that mountain of dead people so I could fight there, where there is no footing?"  A couple of dead guys on top of one another makes sense; a mountain of them makes no sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 21, 2016, 01:31:12 PM
hey grumbler, did you watch the "behind the scenes" afterward? I wondered about the dead mounds while the battle played out (assumed maybe it did happen here and there IRL), and one of the creators mentioned the civil war when referring to the mounds.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 01:24:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Translation: He was a moron, an Ramsay out thought him.

You are agreeing with me here. My point is that the character of Jon was intended to be a pretty bright guy who was something of a natural leader of soldiers.

Certainly if they had written this in such a way that Jon beat Ramsay by out-thinking him, we would not all be sitting here saying "Oh man, that makes no sense! Jon is just a kid, no way he could beat Ramsay!"

His plan was fine, but plans don't matter if the moment the fight starts you just do exactly what the other guy obviously wants you to do. my beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing.

I'm not sure you can have it both ways:  if Jon had outsmarted Ramsay, you'd complain that the writers lasy because they just followed the same old boring formula used in every other hero's story.  Since he didn't outsmart him (or, at least, allowed his temper to get the better of him after Ramsay started his charge - which is just what Jon's plan called for), you call the writers lazy because, if Jon's plan doesn't work as expected, it must be because "he was a moron."  The writers can't win either way on that complaint, so i don't think you are being reasonable.

No, my bitch about Jon being stupid is that it is just lame and makes me not like the character - he *deserved* to lose that battle, and it bugs me that they made him into a moron in order to serve their lazy writing that demands that the protagonist be put into some kind of false tension so we can all be nervous about him making it.

My goal here is not to bitch about the writing, so if they had done something else that worked better, I would not bitch about it - I am not looking for a reason to find their writing trite, I am assuming that they are being trite because I can't imagine another reason why they would write it in such a silly fashion.

My response that this could have been done another way was to refute the claim made by viper that the writers HAD to write it this way because in fact Jon is an idiot and there was no way to write this otherwise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 21, 2016, 01:47:16 PM
It's hard to say how someone can and should react when a deranged mad man fires arrows at one's baby brother.  I lack sufficient experience in the area to ascertain how easy it is to maintain discipline in that scenario.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 02:00:27 PM
He is a commander of other men whose lives are in his hands. Sacrificing all of them in a vain attempt to save his brother is idiotic.

Sansa was right - Rickon was already dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 21, 2016, 02:08:01 PM
I think the thing with Jon there is to show how stereotypical Mary Sue heroes, in their quest to always do the good thing, fuck up in reality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 01:24:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Translation: He was a moron, an Ramsay out thought him.

You are agreeing with me here. My point is that the character of Jon was intended to be a pretty bright guy who was something of a natural leader of soldiers.

Certainly if they had written this in such a way that Jon beat Ramsay by out-thinking him, we would not all be sitting here saying "Oh man, that makes no sense! Jon is just a kid, no way he could beat Ramsay!"

His plan was fine, but plans don't matter if the moment the fight starts you just do exactly what the other guy obviously wants you to do. my beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing.

I'm not sure you can have it both ways:  if Jon had outsmarted Ramsay, you'd complain that the writers lasy because they just followed the same old boring formula used in every other hero's story.  Since he didn't outsmart him (or, at least, allowed his temper to get the better of him after Ramsay started his charge - which is just what Jon's plan called for), you call the writers lazy because, if Jon's plan doesn't work as expected, it must be because "he was a moron."  The writers can't win either way on that complaint, so i don't think you are being reasonable.

No, my bitch about Jon being stupid is that it is just lame and makes me not like the character - he *deserved* to lose that battle, and it bugs me that they made him into a moron in order to serve their lazy writing that demands that the protagonist be put into some kind of false tension so we can all be nervous about him making it.

My goal here is not to bitch about the writing, so if they had done something else that worked better, I would not bitch about it - I am not looking for a reason to find their writing trite, I am assuming that they are being trite because I can't imagine another reason why they would write it in such a silly fashion.

My response that this could have been done another way was to refute the claim made by viper that the writers HAD to write it this way because in fact Jon is an idiot and there was no way to write this otherwise.

The "Jon is an idiot" argument is your and vipers; it has little to do with the episode.  I have no problems whatsoever with Ramsay being able to push Jon's buttons (as he had been able to push everyone else's buttons) in this episode.  That doesn't make Jon an idiot, any more than it made Roose, or Theon, or anyone else idiots... except in the minds of you and Viper.  Merely repeating "Jon is an idiot" doesn't make him an idiot. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 02:28:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 02:00:27 PM
He is a commander of other men whose lives are in his hands. Sacrificing all of them in a vain attempt to save his brother is idiotic.

Sansa was right - Rickon was already dead.

He doesn't sacrifice his men in his attempt to save his brother.  They sacrifice themselves in an attempt to save him.

And, yes, Sansa was right, but Jon hasn't been trained to be as cold as Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Translation: He was a moron, an Ramsay out thought him.
his younger brother was shot just in front of his eyes, after Ramsey Bolton gave him a "chance" (in fact, he was toying with him, he is a pretty good shot).

Quote
You are agreeing with me here. My point is that the character of Jon was intended to be a pretty bright guy who was something of a natural leader of soldiers.
Bright does not mean without emotions.  He lost it.


Quote
His plan was fine, but plans don't matter if the moment the fight starts you just do exactly what the other guy obviously wants you to do. my beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing.
If he had stayed and waited for Rickon to arrive, or moved back to his lines, you would have bitched it was out of character since he really loved his little brother (and he said so the evening before, disagreeing again with Sansa).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 03:45:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 01:37:27 PM
demands that the protagonist be put into some kind of false tension so we can all be nervous about him making it.
I wasn't nervous.  I don't think most watchers were nervous.  It's pretty clear Jon Snow and Daenerys have a big role to play in this story, it is pretty clear since the very beginning of the show and I have written about it at the time.

Quote
the claim made by viper that the writers HAD to write it this way because in fact Jon is an idiot and there was no way to write this otherwise.
See Minsky's answer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 04:08:16 PM
The flayed people burning on the crosses, who were they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 21, 2016, 04:11:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 02:28:11 PM
And, yes, Sansa was right, but Jon hasn't been trained to be as cold as Sansa.
Not just cold. She has become a cruel psychopath herself. More like Cersei than her own mother now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 21, 2016, 04:11:21 PM
Not just cold. She has become a cruel psychopath herself. More like Cersei than her own mother now.

Huh?  Are you basing this just on the doggie dinner?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 21, 2016, 04:11:21 PM
Not just cold. She has become a cruel psychopath herself. More like Cersei than her own mother now.

Huh?  Are you basing this just on the doggie dinner?
She did not want to rescue her brother from Bolton to sacrifice her only chance at revenge.  And she fed her loving, caring husband to the dogs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Translation: He was a moron, an Ramsay out thought him.
his younger brother was shot just in front of his eyes, after Ramsey Bolton gave him a "chance" (in fact, he was toying with him, he is a pretty good shot).

Quote
You are agreeing with me here. My point is that the character of Jon was intended to be a pretty bright guy who was something of a natural leader of soldiers.
Bright does not mean without emotions.  He lost it.


Quote
His plan was fine, but plans don't matter if the moment the fight starts you just do exactly what the other guy obviously wants you to do. my beef isn't that what he did was not believable, it is that it was shitty writing.
If he had stayed and waited for Rickon to arrive, or moved back to his lines, you would have bitched it was out of character since he really loved his little brother (and he said so the evening before, disagreeing again with Sansa).

No, actually I would not. Of course, if that is what the writers were going to have him do, they would have written the scene completley differently anyway.

The only reason they wrote is as they did is they needed some reason for the battle to go terribly wrong so Jon would need to be saved at the last moment.

Had they written it some other way, I am sure you would be telling us THAT way was the only possible way it could be written, and certainly the best possible way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 05:03:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 04:47:48 PM
The only reason they wrote is as they did is they needed some reason for the battle to go terribly wrong so Jon would need to be saved at the last moment.
Since Season 1, you have Eddard Stark, Rob Stark and Jon Snow saying, every time they can, that discipline beats number 9 times out of 10.
Jon Snow uses that line when defending Castle Black against the Wildlings.

For this battle, he had neither the numbers, nor the discipline, as evidenced by Thormund's lack of understanding of basic military strategy.  And he himself lost it after seeing his brother shot dead.

To do it as you imply, it would require:
a) breaking with everything we know about the established lore, mainly that a bunch of undisciplined, yet brave warriors, in numerical inferiority can beat a seasoned army, clad in iron armor and shields
b) that Jon be as heartless as Sansa toward Rickon, assuming he is already dead, something he did not want to consider.

Quote
Had they written it some other way, I am sure you would be telling us THAT way was the only possible way it could be written, and certainly the best possible way.
It would have required for things to be very different since the beginning of the show.  Because right now, it is very consistent with the established lore of the show, in the books and in the tv series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 05:08:00 PM
Right, so this was the only possible way it could be written. The poor writers were sitting there racking their brains about how to make this come out, and decided that this was it - the only way it could be done, and any other story told in any other manner would have viper up in arms about the violation of lore.

Lucky for everyone but me, they happened to get it just right. They are, in fact, perfect in their writing in every way - but of course that is because there is only one possible way to write the story, which just so happens to be exactly the way it is written. Nothing else would be believable in a story about magic and heroes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 05:20:25 PM
Lets take this apart piece by piece.

Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 05:03:45 PM


To do it as you imply, it would require:
a) breaking with everything we know about the established lore, mainly that a bunch of undisciplined, yet brave warriors, in numerical inferiority can beat a seasoned army, clad in iron armor and shields

This comes back to your lack of imagination. Putting aside for the moment the idea that writers of fiction are incapable of coming up with a scenario where the side expected to lose might win (which, btw, is exactly what happened, it just took some deus ex to make it happen), my implication was that there didn't need to be a battle on those terms in any case.

I put together several scenarios that would make more sense. If you must have a battle, simply have the Knights show up before the fight. Have some knights join Jon. Don't have the fight at that time at all.

You do realize that the writers have the power to make this shit up themselves, right? They are not required to put Jon and his forces into the position where it is required to have some deus ex solution.

Hell, even grumbler had a easy, trivial, and 100% better idea to handle part of this - just have the Knights and Littlefinger perfectly aware of the fight and just waiting until Jons forces were almost wiped out to save the day.

The writers get to set the stage of the fight, not just the outcome of it.
Quote
b) that Jon be as heartless as Sansa toward Rickon, assuming he is already dead, something he did not want to consider.

Again, only an issue if you have so little imagination that you can't imagine them writing the episode such that Jon is not put in a situation where he has to act like a fucking idiot or let Rickon die.

The writers created that scene as well, it was not handed to them and they had to deal with it in some reasonable fashion.

Ramsay could have left Rickon behind, he could have killed Rickon before letting Jon interfere in any way, they could have had some Wildlings and Jon go and rescue Rickon, they could have had Rickon jump off the wall of Winterfell, which by all accounts is incredibly high, and land in some handy soft patch of snow...of wait, they already did that one, didn't they - and THAT was the only possible way they could have handled that story arc as well, I am sure.
Quote

Quote
Had they written it some other way, I am sure you would be telling us THAT way was the only possible way it could be written, and certainly the best possible way.
It would have required for things to be very different since the beginning of the show.  Because right now, it is very consistent with the established lore of the show, in the books and in the tv series.

No, the established lore of the show is not that Jon is a fucking idiot who needs to be saved by someone else constantly. There are a million different ways to tell the basic story of how Jon and Sansa retake Winterfell from Ramsay, and very few of them *require* Jon to be portrayed as a complete and total chump who deserved to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 21, 2016, 05:40:33 PM
grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all! :lol:  I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2016, 05:44:35 PM
The false conversion of Littletits has some subtlety to it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 21, 2016, 05:40:33 PM
grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all! :lol:  I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

Sorry if I mis-attributed that idea.  It certainly wasn't original.

And I agree with you that the showrunners should have let Tywin live.  He was a much more interesting character than almost anyone else in King's Landing, and he could still have been absent when Cersei screwed up and empowered the High Sparrow.  Him versus the HS would make for some compelling TV.  The showrunners probably listened a little too much to GRRM in that case.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2016, 09:52:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 05:20:25 PM
You do realize that the writers have the power to make this shit up themselves, right? They are not required to put Jon and his forces into the position where it is required to have some deus ex solution.
The Knights of the Vale are farther from Winterfell than Jon Snow's army is.  Of course, he could have waited Littlefinger.  But he did not want to call on Littlefinger, because he did no trust him.  Nobody should trust Littlefinger, apparently.  Those who trusted Littlefinger have had bad things happen to them.

You have a sister, she is under the protection of a man, and that man marries her to the most fucked up psychopath in the entire Seven Kingdom.  Oh, btw, let's wait for that super reliable guy to come here and join us while the ennemy is aware of our movement and reinforcing himself.

That makes total sense.

Quote
Hell, even grumbler had a easy, trivial, and 100% better idea to handle part of this - just have the Knights and Littlefinger perfectly aware of the fight and just waiting until Jons forces were almost wiped out to save the day.
That's pretty much what happens.  Who knows what happens behind the scene?  Did he rush to the rescue of his princess or did he wait a little more to attack and make the rescue even more spectacular?

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The writers get to set the stage of the fight, not just the outcome of it.
True.  But the moment Stannis army has deserted him and what is left is dead, all you have is a few northern lords not too afraid with Bolton and a few Wildlings who got crushed by a dozen Nightwatch.


Quote
Again, only an issue if you have so little imagination that you can't imagine them writing the episode such that Jon is not put in a situation where he has to act like a fucking idiot or let Rickon die.
It would have required Rickon to not be captured by them Umbers and delivered to Bolton.
And keeping him alive meant a threat to Sansa's rule.  And she'd be surbordinate to a man, again.
In case you haven't noticed, there's a certain tendancy for women to take control of things in this show, and not be simple homewives sewing at home waiting for their valliant husbands.

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The writers created that scene as well, it was not handed to them and they had to deal with it in some reasonable fashion.
True, but Rickon needs to disapear for Sansa to rule. It would be pretty stupid to have a little boy coming out litterrally out of nowhere (in the books, he is still below 10, IIRC, and they want to keep a very similar ending to what the author has envisionned, meaning, Sansa Warden of the North, Daenerys and Jon Snow defeating the White Walkers, as prophesized in Bran's dream).

Ramsey can't kill him before the battle, it's an hostage, he has some uses.  The moment Jon Snow makes his move with Sansa, Rickon is expandable.  And he needs to die to clear the way for Sansa.  Do it there, or do it later, better to do it now, even if it's stupid because he runs in a straight line.

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Ramsay could have left Rickon behind, he could have killed Rickon before letting Jon interfere in any way,
No.  There is still a chance there won't be a battle with Rickon alive. And besides, he is a pyschopath.  Killing him and delivering his head to Jon Snow does not have the same impact as "freeing" him to kill him right in front of Jon's eyes.  By doing this, he provokes Jon into attacking him, which is what he wants.  For once, someone thinks with his head and you complain :)

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they could have had some Wildlings and Jon go and rescue Rickon, they could have had Rickon jump off the wall of Winterfell, which by all accounts is incredibly high, and land in some handy soft patch of snow...of wait, they already did that one, didn't they - and THAT was the only possible way they could have handled that story arc as well, I am sure.
sure.  Sansa got away like that, with the help of Theon Greyjoy, while she was locked up in her room on the second floor of the castle, close to the battlements.  But hey, Rickon, all alone, from his cell, in the underground dungeon, he would escape, go into the courtyard, climb the battlements, jump in the snow and move toward Castle Black.  All of this without attracting any attention whatsoever and with sufficient delay to avoid being catched up, which is what happenned to Sansa, who had some help in escaping.

Sure, that works, and does not sound totally stupid.  It is only my lack of imagination if I did not think of that.

It's far easier in the books, because it's not Sansa that gets married to Bolton, it's Jeyne Poole. You can argue it works better that way, and I'm inclined to agree with you.  However, it is a tv series with a finite budget, not a book.  Adding a character that appears 2 or 3 times in the series until she escapes from Winterfell to reach Stannis' camp will costs money that you won't have for, oh say, a gigantic freaking battle? :)

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No, the established lore of the show is not that Jon is a fucking idiot who needs to be saved by someone else constantly.
Really?
I did not read nor see that, except when he got killed by his own men.
So far, he successfully infiltrated the Wildlings, warned Castle Black of their attack, push it back, captured Mance Rayder, and rescued other Wildlings before being stabbed to death.
The dire situation with an understaffed Wall wasn't really his fault.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 10:41:33 PM
You've convinced me. There is no way the story could be written in any other way. This is it. Nothing else would make sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martim Silva on June 22, 2016, 01:08:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2016, 08:51:08 AM
The firing arrows into your own troops kind of bothered me as well, but on the other hand I've always thought that Ramsay was a ridiculous character anyway.

Nobody would follow that guy. The way he acts is in direct contradiction to the social structure he exists in, which is based on loyalty, charisma, honor, and structure. People don't tolerate lords who just butcher everyone else, at least not openly. You have to have some ability to instill some sense of loyalty in your followers, they have to *like* you at some level, especially if you do NOT have the social status granted by birth to lean on. Joffrey can get away with being a piece of shit (oh wait, no he can't, he get killed for being a piece of shit that nobody liked) for a while. Ramsay could not.


The only thing I thought of when watching that scene was:

"We Have Reserves"

(https://historicalhistrionics.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/longshanks-at-falkirk.jpg)

And the idea of "rip-off" kept nagging at me the whole time.  :shutup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 22, 2016, 06:37:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 21, 2016, 05:40:33 PM
grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all! :lol:  I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

Sorry if I mis-attributed that idea.  It certainly wasn't original.

And I agree with you that the showrunners should have let Tywin live.  He was a much more interesting character than almost anyone else in King's Landing, and he could still have been absent when Cersei screwed up and empowered the High Sparrow.  Him versus the HS would make for some compelling TV.  The showrunners probably listened a little too much to GRRM in that case.
Apologies.  I must have pirated the idea from someone who I never read, as I thought it was original and coming from my own imagination at the time.  Stupid brain, I shall have to stab thee with a sharp object again for thy insolence!  (Insert young Homer Simpson with crayon picture here) :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 06:47:33 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 22, 2016, 06:37:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 21, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 21, 2016, 05:40:33 PM
grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all! :lol:  I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

Sorry if I mis-attributed that idea.  It certainly wasn't original.

And I agree with you that the showrunners should have let Tywin live.  He was a much more interesting character than almost anyone else in King's Landing, and he could still have been absent when Cersei screwed up and empowered the High Sparrow.  Him versus the HS would make for some compelling TV.  The showrunners probably listened a little too much to GRRM in that case.
Apologies.  I must have pirated the idea from someone who I never read, as I thought it was original and coming from my own imagination at the time.  Stupid brain, I shall have to stab thee with a sharp object again for thy insolence!  (Insert young Homer Simpson with crayon picture here) :)

I meant original to me!  :lol:  I knew that it wasn't, and didn't present it as such, I just misremembered who had said it.

You were the first I have encountered to suggest the idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2016, 08:23:53 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 22, 2016, 01:08:46 AM
The only thing I thought of when watching that scene was:

"We Have Reserves"

(https://historicalhistrionics.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/longshanks-at-falkirk.jpg)

And the idea of "rip-off" kept nagging at me the whole time.  :shutup:
that, and that scene where Theon Greyjoy escapes the Bolton's castle with help from one guy who shoots at ennemy troops pursuing them, and it turns out it was Ramsey and these were his own troops.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Martinus on June 22, 2016, 09:42:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0dA9eUP85s

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 22, 2016, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 06:47:33 AM

I meant original to me!  :lol:  I knew that it wasn't, and didn't present it as such, I just misremembered who had said it.

You were the first I have encountered to suggest the idea.
:blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:06:29 PM
Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 22, 2016, 03:38:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:06:29 PM
Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.

Smart Sansa consideration:

1.  Sansa rightly does not trust Jon Snow militarily or politically.  She had not seen the boy for years, and he is a bastard she never liked; a bastard that could rival her for the throne.  Sansa knows firsthand what a bastard could do to become legitimate and gain power (Ramsay).  Jon does not consult her on high matters and clearly has emotional problems.  He already got himself killed and now leads a ragtag band of wildling savages.  What viewer has been inspired by Jon this season to win anything?

2.  Sansa sent a last minute letter to Littlefinger, but there was no immediate answer or guarantee that the Knights of the Vale would arrive.  Even if she did notify Jon, the boy would have likely screwed up with the additional information.  He emotionally failed at the beginning of the battle by falling for Ramsay's psychological tricks just as Sansa warned.  Instead, Jon's carelessness led to Ramsay's overconfidence led to Littlefinger/Sansa's surprise routing of the Boltons.

3.  Intentions aside, the destruction of Jon loyalists (the wildlings), death of Rickon (last known Stark male heir), and triumph of Sansa loyalists (Knights of the Vale) now places Sansa as the strongest leader in the North.


Smart Littlefinger consideration:

Remember the royal decree last season making Littlefinger the Warden of the North if he captures Winterfell...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
My theory also gives a completely different light to the scene at Castle Black where Sansa browbeats Jon into launching the campaign against Winterfell when he doesn't want to.  Especially the part where she emphasizes that the North will rally around him as the son of Ned Stark, rather than around her as a Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2016, 05:59:49 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 22, 2016, 03:38:24 PM
Smart Littlefinger consideration:

Remember the royal decree last season making Littlefinger the Warden of the North if he captures Winterfell...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM
that's a very good point.  I wonder if Littlefinger still wants Cersei's deal, given that she has near zero influence now that the High Sparrow has taken over King's Landing.
He might keep it in reserve for later, still play the snake, wait for the opportune moment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 22, 2016, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
My theory also gives a completely different light to the scene at Castle Black where Sansa browbeats Jon into launching the campaign against Winterfell when he doesn't want to.  Especially the part where she emphasizes that the North will rally around him as the son of Ned Stark, rather than around her as a Stark.
I quite like this theory!  I hope the writers have the will make such bold advancements in characters.  I'm hoping the angry vengeful Daenerys wasn't a brief flash in the pan but a sign of things to come as well.  I want more moral greyness and conflicted heroes, not clear cut good and evil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 22, 2016, 07:22:28 PM
I quite like this theory!  I hope the writers have the will make such bold advancements in characters.  I'm hoping the angry vengeful Daenerys wasn't a brief flash in the pan but a sign of things to come as well.  I want more moral greyness and conflicted heroes, not clear cut good and evil.
I don't remember who first said something like "the essence of tragedy is the human heart in conflict with itself," but it is the basis for most fiction I enjoy. 

It would be way cool if Sansa suffered from this blight, and it was Arya who rescued her from it (after committing atrocities beyond Sansa's reckoning).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 23, 2016, 07:55:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:06:29 PM
Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.

I don't think I would "like" it for a few different reasons, but at least it would show that the writers were actually thinking, rather than just spitting back a bunch of lazy crap - I would not complain about it being crappy writing.

Basically, I would not much care for a Sansa that has become just as bad as Littlefinger or even Ramsay. We want Sansa to become a calculating, manipulative player of the game who is as good at as Littlefinger, but still retain some semblance of basic humanity and to be working towards basically positive ends. But that is an objection based on my desire for the her arc to end in a certain place, not a complaint about poor writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 23, 2016, 07:57:35 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 22, 2016, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
My theory also gives a completely different light to the scene at Castle Black where Sansa browbeats Jon into launching the campaign against Winterfell when he doesn't want to.  Especially the part where she emphasizes that the North will rally around him as the son of Ned Stark, rather than around her as a Stark.
I quite like this theory!  I hope the writers have the will make such bold advancements in characters.  I'm hoping the angry vengeful Daenerys wasn't a brief flash in the pan but a sign of things to come as well.  I want more moral greyness and conflicted heroes, not clear cut good and evil.

Sansa betraying both of her brothers and intentionally getting them killed isn't really very grey...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 23, 2016, 08:40:29 AM
About running in straight line from Ramsay, Rickon is still a kid, have no military experience like most of the other characters, and he doesn't really know Ramsay or Jon Connor, i mean , Jon Snow.

He does what 90 percent of the people in this forum would do when in panic running for their lives: run in straight line. And then, zigzag would get him a volley instead of a single arrow. Still bad from Rickon. Rickon mistake was not running straight, but getting himself captured. Once that happens, he is done.

The Bolton shield wall was the most stupid thing i have seen in a while. Almost as bad as Aragorn letting his little army get surrounded oitside the Black Gates.
Shield walls are a defensive formation. There is zero evidence of ever being used historically as an offensive formation by surrounding the enemy, because the only thing they need to do is to charge the side of the "envelopment" with the shields on the wrong side. And don't mention Cannae, that was nothing like this, more like plugging the sides and rear while letting the enemy center keep pushing forward.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 23, 2016, 01:01:00 PM
 :lol:

https://twitter.com/BetterCallLF/status/745951609776115716

"Ned Stark arrives to take back Winterfell"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 23, 2016, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 22, 2016, 03:06:29 PM
Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.

The problem with that theory is Sansa tried to tell Jon that he didn't have enough troops and she tried to warn Jon that Bolton would lay a trap for him.

Nothing absolves Jon from blame for the battle plan misfiring.  Jon didn't follow the battleplan at all.  He is the one he emphasized that it was all important that Bolton come to his line so that he could trap Bolton.  Instead he acted like an idiot because he saw what he already knew was a likely outcome of his decision to fight.

There is no good way to resolve the terrible writing in that episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 23, 2016, 07:04:56 PM
I'd like to point out that in the middle ages, battles rarely had plans.  For most commanders having everyone attack in the same direction was hard enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on June 23, 2016, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 23, 2016, 07:04:56 PM
I'd like to point out that in the middle ages, battles rarely had plans.  For most commanders having everyone attack in the same direction was hard enough.

9/11 was planned in some detail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 06:17:15 PM
Predictions for tonight:

[spoiler]R+L=J confirmed.
New Queen in the North (Sansa)
Sept of Baelor go 'splode.
Tommen almost certainly dies.
Little Birds stab Kevan and Pycelle, (possibly even Qyburn?) under the returned-guidance of Varys.
Daenarys finally heads to Westeros with her army.
Melisandre either dies at Jon's behest or performs a miracle to save herself.
Riverlands sees a Frey bloodbath (holding out for some Manderly or show-version of him).
Jaime escapes the bloodbath in the nick of time.
Cersei begins her reign as Mad Queen over the remnants of King's Landing thanks to the power vacuum.
Wall comes down?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 26, 2016, 06:30:44 PM
You have been pretty accurate all the way along.  I don't have any guesses myself.  I just hope that we get a good finale after the last few episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 26, 2016, 06:39:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 23, 2016, 07:04:56 PM
I'd like to point out that in the middle ages, battles rarely had plans.  For most commanders having everyone attack in the same direction was hard enough.
The battles during the Wars of the Roses era most certainly had plans for the most part, it was the sticking to those plans that proved difficult.  There was a lot of maneuvering and positioning of troops and tactical skill used by commanders on both sides before battles and occasionally in battle.  Considering that was one of the main eras used by GRR to draw inspiration from, I think it is relevant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 07:26:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2016, 06:30:44 PM
You have been pretty accurate all the way along.  I don't have any guesses myself.  I just hope that we get a good finale after the last few episodes.

To be fair, the show has been pretty clear about telegraphing a lot of my predictions.  And some of my others are events that have already come about in the books, and now's the proper time for them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 26, 2016, 07:28:10 PM
Predictions:

Sansa and Littlefinger combine forces (that's why he got the King to name him Warden of the North if he could take Winterfell, because the Knights of the Vale will honor that designation); that's why she conspired to see Jon's army mostly killed rather than tell him reinforcements were coming).  That's the big plot twist for the night, because neither Sansa nor Littlefinger understand the threat from the Night King. Sansa and Littlefinger announce their planned marriage.

Tommen dies at the hand of "Robert Strong;"  maybe Tommen threatens Cersei, but more liely the High Sparrow tricks him into it, and Strong reacts before Cersei realizes what is happening.  She burns the Great Sept of Baelor in her grief and anger using wildfire (or maybe Qyburn does so thinking that that is what she wanted).

Danerys sets sail for Westeros.  Euron is waiting, though.

Bran returns to the Tower of Joy and discovers that R+L=J.  Credits roll.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 26, 2016, 07:33:26 PM
I think it is too early for Arya to come back and waste the Freys, but would welcome it.  I think they are plot armored against her return, but would welcome Manderley-style rebellions.

I think it is too early for the Wall to fall.  I think it will fall at the end of the seventh season.  I think two seasons of the White walkers killing everyone we like in the north is bad TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 26, 2016, 07:42:27 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 26, 2016, 06:39:04 PM
The battles during the Wars of the Roses era most certainly had plans for the most part, it was the sticking to those plans that proved difficult.  There was a lot of maneuvering and positioning of troops and tactical skill used by commanders on both sides before battles and occasionally in battle.  Considering that was one of the main eras used by GRR to draw inspiration from, I think it is relevant.
I think all battles in the Middle Ages had plans.  As you say, those plans often proved difficult to implement due to poor communications.  The modern conceit that medieval commanders were idiots who didn't understand planning is just that: a conceit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on June 26, 2016, 09:16:58 PM
That's how you end a season. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 26, 2016, 09:22:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on June 26, 2016, 07:42:27 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 26, 2016, 06:39:04 PM
The battles during the Wars of the Roses era most certainly had plans for the most part, it was the sticking to those plans that proved difficult.  There was a lot of maneuvering and positioning of troops and tactical skill used by commanders on both sides before battles and occasionally in battle.  Considering that was one of the main eras used by GRR to draw inspiration from, I think it is relevant.
I think all battles in the Middle Ages had plans.  As you say, those plans often proved difficult to implement due to poor communications.  The modern conceit that medieval commanders were idiots who didn't understand planning is just that: a conceit.

You can spin it anyway you want, but you still fucked up at Sluys.  Would have been better if you didn't have a plan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 26, 2016, 09:25:56 PM
Wow.  Any question about which episode was the best has been laid to rest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 09:27:52 PM
King by acclamation was a nice touch, though I wonder if Sansa will be content with that.  Littlefinger was definitely eye-fucking her the whole time, so I assume there will some scheming next season...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 26, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
I liked the look on the sparrows face when he realized he miscalculated. Good acting. Great episode. Didn't like the arya part though. Came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 09:34:34 PM
How long do you guys think Cersei will be Queen?  Two episodes?  Three?   :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 26, 2016, 09:35:46 PM
Until Jamie kills her
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 26, 2016, 09:40:16 PM
Episode 10 is downloading now - yet I predict I'll have more fun watching this than the idiot Euro-nostalgics are having ranting and raving about Brexit.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 09:46:58 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/16hsxa.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/16hsxa)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 26, 2016, 10:23:16 PM
Pretty solid with the predictions, Habbaku.  If only for payoff and cinematic appearance it was a solid episode.  I do wish there were a few more twists.  Oh well.  The plotlines are condensing and the action has burned away the book slowdown.  Next season will be the true test of the show writers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 26, 2016, 10:36:39 PM
Very good episode.  It was ruined a bit by putting Varys on the ship at the end.  I guess he had his teleport machine safely in the hold.

Now that the new Three Eyed Crow knows Jon is not Ned's bastard the scene of him being made King of the North was all the more satisfying.  The actress who played that role did very well.

Knew that girl was Arya right away because she was so out of place.  That is the only thing I didnt like about the story.  She can go anywhere and kill anyone - why does the rest matter?



Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 26, 2016, 10:46:45 PM
(https://s32.postimg.org/gyk8oqgth/kevin_durant_nba_kevin_durant_mvp_press_conferen.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 26, 2016, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 26, 2016, 10:46:45 PM
(https://s32.postimg.org/gyk8oqgth/kevin_durant_nba_kevin_durant_mvp_press_conferen.jpg)

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 11:08:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2016, 10:36:39 PM
Very good episode.  It was ruined a bit by putting Varys on the ship at the end.  I guess he had his teleport machine safely in the hold.

Chalk it up to GoT's consistent inability to really clarify how much time is passing.  To have him depart from Meereen, appear in Dorne, then be back in Meereen in time to be on the boats denies us the opportunity to see how Varys' first meeting with Daenarys went as well.   :mad:

QuoteKnew that girl was Arya right away because she was so out of place.  That is the only thing I didnt like about the story.  She can go anywhere and kill anyone - why does the rest matter?

I didn't like this either.  Sure, Walder gets what's coming to him, and we even get Frey pie, but...what?  It was so rushed, and if Arya is really that capable, what hope does anyone have against her?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 26, 2016, 11:51:18 PM
Lady Mormont for President  :D



Great episode, yet I have to agree with Habbaku about the very loose time stamps going on here.

And now we wait another year. *sigh*



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 27, 2016, 12:50:49 AM
BA, i don't get the pic :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 27, 2016, 12:52:37 AM
I once perversely thought about Littlefinger ascending the Iron Throne, but then the show made him into a weasely loser coming onto Sansa like that at the tree.  I enjoyed her rejection of him after he revealed his true fantasy to her.

I am inclined to believe Sansa is happy for her bastard brother bring crowned.  The question is not truly settled whether she had/has ambitions for power, but if she does not, then the look she gave Littlefinger at the end is one of seeing a threat to her family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jaron on June 27, 2016, 01:01:18 AM
Are those poor dragons going to have to fly the entire way?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2016, 01:02:56 AM
Still watching. 

Choked up a little at the King of the North scene.  :cry:

Can someone explain the Ned at the Tower scene to me?  I get that's Jon, but who's the chick, why does Jon have to be a secret, etc?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on June 27, 2016, 01:15:53 AM
That was his sister Lyanna who was "kidnapped away from her promised husband" Robert Baratheon and "raped" by Rhaegar Targaryen. So basically it revealed he is the nephew of Daenerys and Ned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 01:21:48 AM
the teleporting stuff is easily explained by the show just not showing the characters traveling around. the part I found a little ridiculous was lancel not blowing out the candles. overall, fantastic end to a great season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 01:24:07 AM
Quote from: katmai on June 27, 2016, 01:15:53 AM
That was his sister Lyanna who was "kidnapped away from her promised husband" Robert Baratheon and "raped" by Rhaegar Targaryen. So basically it revealed he is the nephew of Daenerys and Ned.

:yes:  And if revealed to King Robert, he'd likely have been slain, as he would be a Targaryen bastard child.

So, Ned claimed he had a bastard son while away at war in order to fulfill his dying sister's wish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 27, 2016, 01:36:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2016, 01:02:56 AM
Still watching. 

Choked up a little at the King of the North scene.  :cry:

Can someone explain the Ned at the Tower scene to me?  I get that's Jon, but who's the chick, why does Jon have to be a secret, etc?

The chick is Ned's sister who just had a baby with the Mad King's son Rhaegar (Dany's dead oldest brother).  Jon is thus made of a Targaryen-Stark coupling and a strong claimant to the Iron Throne if revealed.  Ned pretended Jon was his bastard so that Robert would not kill the baby like he did the other children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2016, 01:56:27 AM
The last scene really needed some shots of Dothrakis puking their lungs out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 04:15:49 AM
So I guess Jon's real last name is Blackfyre.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 04:32:50 AM
One question:  How did Varys move from Slavers bay to Dorne and then back again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 05:49:43 AM
That was: awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 05:51:40 AM
I thought that Arya scene was great. They kind of stumbled on the execution a little bit (maybe trying to get the length of the episode down a little? It felt like a 20 minute story compressed into 8), but who fucking cares? The reveal was awesome.

I watch the show with my wife and her best friend. They both jumped out of their seats and cheered when she pulled off her face.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 06:12:06 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 05:51:40 AM
I thought that Arya scene was great. They kind of stumbled on the execution a little bit (maybe trying to get the length of the episode down a little? It felt like a 20 minute story compressed into 8), but who fucking cares? The reveal was awesome.

I watch the show with my wife and her best friend. They both jumped out of their seats and cheered when she pulled off her face.

She should have said "the Starks send their regards," though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 27, 2016, 06:36:12 AM
Quote from: katmai on June 27, 2016, 12:50:49 AM
BA, i don't get the pic :(
Kevin Durant after winning the MVP award stated that his mom was, "The real MVP".  Since then, Durant at the podium implies the idea of, "You the/da real MVP!".  In this case, I was stating Lyanna Mormont was "the real MVP" of the season/episode.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/kevin-durant-mvp-speech
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 06:42:04 AM
(https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-memes-607-12.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 27, 2016, 07:01:36 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQFCwQuK.jpg&hash=37a17f364e0e66b092204b657ee0d76a904ac744)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiDW0mmb.jpg&hash=b6657f8dfa45640667d4653c302e2c7ac31ff1b0)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Malicious Intent on June 27, 2016, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 05:51:40 AM
I thought that Arya scene was great. They kind of stumbled on the execution a little bit (maybe trying to get the length of the episode down a little? It felt like a 20 minute story compressed into 8), but who fucking cares? The reveal was awesome.

I watch the show with my wife and her best friend. They both jumped out of their seats and cheered when she pulled off her face.

Agreed. Plus, this was purely a setup scene for the next season. Arya will go on a murder spree, and we will probably see her planning in more elaborate detail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 27, 2016, 07:52:07 AM
QoT owned the bad pussay. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 27, 2016, 10:08:27 AM
Great episode. I was totally thrown off by the clerk. It's a Danish actor most known for his bizarre humour and over the top acting, so seeing him pull off something (for him) very subtle and in that show was weird indeed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 27, 2016, 07:52:07 AM
QoT owned the bad pussay. :D

The implication in that scene is that her family was completely wiped out.  But wasn't her other son put into play as a potential spouse for Sansa - IIRC that made the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 10:18:56 AM
The first 20 minutes or so was about the best the show has ever been IMO.  Perfect Cersei - unleashing her carefully plotted and vicious revenge, taking out all her enemies and repaying her debts.  And committing a staggering strategic blunder with the same.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on June 27, 2016, 10:20:50 AM
Danish tax payer money at work. Someone counted the words uttered in each game of thrones episode. Why? State TV has to pretend to do some work I guess. Source is of course a site for subtitles to illegally downloaded movies/series.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fasset.dr.dk%2Fimagescaler%2F%3Ffile%3D%2Fimages%2Fcrop%2F2016%2F06%2F27%2F1467034875_gamesofthrone-sprog-igx.jpg%26amp%3Bserver%3Dwww.dr.dk%26amp%3Bw%3D620%26amp%3Bh%3D1286%26amp%3BscaleAfter%3Dcrop%26amp%3Bquality%3D75%26amp%3Bratio%3D620-1286&hash=0e55b3f36f4f5c96296222b6163d6ba40b74498c)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:24:47 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 27, 2016, 07:52:07 AM
QoT owned the bad pussay. :D

The implication in that scene is that her family was completely wiped out.  But wasn't her other son put into play as a potential spouse for Sansa - IIRC that made the show.

That's from the books, in the show it was only Lancel and Margaery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:25:38 AM
Btw, loved it when Sansa said "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger".  :lol:

And glad to see Doran's "Fire and Blood" speech from the books recycled, even if it's in a duet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 11:08:56 PM
Chalk it up to GoT's consistent inability to really clarify how much time is passing.  To have him depart from Meereen, appear in Dorne, then be back in Meereen in time to be on the boats denies us the opportunity to see how Varys' first meeting with Daenarys went as well.   :mad:
Well, the Tyrell matriarch had the time to get the news of her son and grandchild's death, knew it was Cersei, been asked to meet the Dorne's representative where Varys was (it was most likely his plan, even if shaped differently than in the books).
Some time had to pass before that happens.  And Dany is not ready to leave yet when she names Tyrion Queen's hand.


Quote
and if Arya is really that capable, what hope does anyone have against her?
If it's more than a one thing event, they will figure that there is a very skilled assassin operating and they will hire other very skilled assassin to prevent her attacks, plus bodyguards under all circumstances where the important people are not totally alone.  She may be skilled, but if faced with a couple of alert bodyguards plus the victim, she may not fare so well.  An assassin like her relies on stealth.  Get in, get out without ever being seen.  Even if she manages to kill the two bodyguards before killing her target, it is most likely they will have time to sound the alarm, other guards will come rushing in and it will compromise her escape, plus make other infiltration very difficult as everyone will be screened for weapons, if she manages to escape unharmed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2016, 10:34:01 AM
R + L = J! Sweeeeee!

Varyss seems to have a teleporter.  Weird and dumb to have him on that end scene.

Though I guess it makes me wonder on something I've been thinking about a lot with this show. Not every story seems to be on the same time line. They're out of sync with each other.

I have to complain about how bloody DARK everything was.  Not quite sure what it was arya was showing.
Did anyone see gregors face?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:36:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 04:32:50 AM
One question:  How did Varys move from Slavers bay to Dorne and then back again?
by boat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:38:08 AM
So, body count of named characters for the episode? In rough order:

- Pycelle.
- Lancel.
- Everybody at the sept (High Sparrow, Mace, Margaery & Loras Tyrell, Kevan Lannister).
- Tommen.
- Walder Frey & sons.

And plotlines for next season, off the top of my head:

- Daenerys' invasion (supported by Dorne and the Tyrells) finally!
- Struggle for the control of the North between Jon, Sansa & Littlefinger? Vale stuff thrown in for good measure?
- Mad Queen Cersei. Jaime's revenge?
- Arya removing names from her list.
- Bran coming back to the North with ponderous news?
- White Walkers coming hard at the wall?
- Victarion's shenanigans?
- Brotherhood without banners roaming the Riverlands, with Mel joining them?
- Sam's freshman year at the Citadel? Hope that Marwyn is there, otherwise it can be dreadful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 27, 2016, 10:38:52 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 27, 2016, 10:34:01 AM
R + L = J! Sweeeeee!

Varyss seems to have a teleporter.  Weird and dumb to have him on that end scene.

Though I guess it makes me wonder on something I've been thinking about a lot with this show. Not every story seems to be on the same time line. They're out of sync with each other.

Most medieval shows and films open each scene or episode with the time/year and location subtitled.  GoT does not.  And only a small minority care.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:36:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 04:32:50 AM
One question:  How did Varys move from Slavers bay to Dorne and then back again?
by boat.

In fact I thought that I saw the Martell sun & spear in the sails of some of the boats.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 27, 2016, 10:34:01 AM
Weird and dumb to have him on that end scene.
Given the important news, I guess he does not trust a raven to bring it.

Quote
Did anyone see gregors face?
Not really, only partially.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2016, 10:41:46 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 27, 2016, 12:52:37 AM
I once perversely thought about Littlefinger ascending the Iron Throne, but then the show made him into a weasely loser coming onto Sansa like that at the tree.  I enjoyed her rejection of him after he revealed his true fantasy to her.

I am inclined to believe Sansa is happy for her bastard brother bring crowned.  The question is not truly settled whether she had/has ambitions for power, but if she does not, then the look she gave Littlefinger at the end is one of seeing a threat to her family.

Maybe she learned from little finger that the the true power isn't in being the king but in being the guy behind the king?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:38:08 AM
And plotlines for next season, off the top of my head:

- Daenerys' invasion (supported by Dorne and the Tyrells) finally!
- Struggle for the control of the North between Jon, Sansa & Littlefinger? Vale stuff thrown in for good measure?
- Mad Queen Cersei. Jaime's revenge?
- Arya removing names from her list.
- Bran coming back to the North with ponderous news?
- White Walkers coming hard at the wall?
- Victarion's shenanigans?
- Brotherhood without banners roaming the Riverlands, with Mel joining them?
- Sam's freshman year at the Citadel? Hope that Marwyn is there, otherwise it can be dreadful.
someone here said they'd keep the White Walkers for the last episode of next season, and that seems reasonable.  Have next season focus on Daenerys and the impact of her conquest, then Bran preparing for the White Walker's onslaught.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 10:43:15 AM
aren't the tarlys still loyal to the throne? maybe we'll see sam's dad as a general in cersei's army
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2016, 10:45:12 AM
Will there even be much of a conquest?
The lannisters are the only thing standing in her way in the south.
I guess mad queen cersei will threaten some crazy suicidal idea and Jamie will kill her. Battle avoided.

Then with the north....politics.
The cliché would be after a little squabbling  Jon marrying Dany and the two uniting against the walkers. Whether that will happen.... remains to be seen.


Oh.
And the "Sam discovers the medieval Internet" scene was cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 10:46:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:36:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 04:32:50 AM
One question:  How did Varys move from Slavers bay to Dorne and then back again?
by boat.

In fact I thought that I saw the Martell sun & spear in the sails of some of the boats.

You did.  In fact, if you look very closely, you'll also find a certain green-hued set of sails as well...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 10:49:35 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDZcKFuv.jpg&hash=986f1aca4e8d2bdde9cc5e830a787f5f1f5b3af0)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 10:51:44 AM
what do the green sails represent?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 10:46:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:36:36 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 04:32:50 AM
One question:  How did Varys move from Slavers bay to Dorne and then back again?
by boat.

In fact I thought that I saw the Martell sun & spear in the sails of some of the boats.

You did.  In fact, if you look very closely, you'll also find a certain green-hued set of sails as well...

Mmm, I didn't see those, thanks for the pic. 2nd from the right, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:52:45 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 10:51:44 AM
what do the green sails represent?

Tyrells.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 11:08:56 PM
Chalk it up to GoT's consistent inability to really clarify how much time is passing.  To have him depart from Meereen, appear in Dorne, then be back in Meereen in time to be on the boats denies us the opportunity to see how Varys' first meeting with Daenarys went as well.   :mad:
Well, the Tyrell matriarch had the time to get the news of her son and grandchild's death, knew it was Cersei, been asked to meet the Dorne's representative where Varys was (it was most likely his plan, even if shaped differently than in the books).
Some time had to pass before that happens.  And Dany is not ready to leave yet when she names Tyrion Queen's hand.


Quote
and if Arya is really that capable, what hope does anyone have against her?
If it's more than a one thing event, they will figure that there is a very skilled assassin operating and they will hire other very skilled assassin to prevent her attacks, plus bodyguards under all circumstances where the important people are not totally alone.  She may be skilled, but if faced with a couple of alert bodyguards plus the victim, she may not fare so well.  An assassin like her relies on stealth.  Get in, get out without ever being seen.  Even if she manages to kill the two bodyguards before killing her target, it is most likely they will have time to sound the alarm, other guards will come rushing in and it will compromise her escape, plus make other infiltration very difficult as everyone will be screened for weapons, if she manages to escape unharmed.

And this goes in line with the reputation of the Faceless Men anyway. They are, in fact, supposed to be just that good. Wasn't the joke in the books something like if you find out they are after you, you might as well just go lie down and die and avoid the trouble?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 10:55:17 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 10:52:45 AMTyrells.

ah, thanks
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 10:56:32 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 10:43:15 AM
aren't the tarlys still loyal to the throne? maybe we'll see sam's dad as a general in cersei's army

They were Renly supporters who came over with the Tyrells, and the father received his appointment from Kevan Lannister, another Cersei victim.  So perhaps not the most reliable ally at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 11:00:15 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 10:56:32 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 10:43:15 AM
aren't the tarlys still loyal to the throne? maybe we'll see sam's dad as a general in cersei's army

They were Renly supporters who came over with the Tyrells, and the father received his appointment from Kevan Lannister, another Cersei victim.  So perhaps not the most reliable ally at this point.

Following allegiances, he'd fight for Daenerys, since the Tyrell(s) are with her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:01:28 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 27, 2016, 10:41:46 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 27, 2016, 12:52:37 AM
I once perversely thought about Littlefinger ascending the Iron Throne, but then the show made him into a weasely loser coming onto Sansa like that at the tree.  I enjoyed her rejection of him after he revealed his true fantasy to her.

I am inclined to believe Sansa is happy for her bastard brother bring crowned.  The question is not truly settled whether she had/has ambitions for power, but if she does not, then the look she gave Littlefinger at the end is one of seeing a threat to her family.

Maybe she learned from little finger that the the true power isn't in being the king but in being the guy behind the king?

I think everyone is making something of a mistake about Sansa.

Her arc is about her going from a pawn of the game to a player of the game. But just because she has become a competent player (maybe even a great player) under the tutelage of Littlefinger, that doesn't mean her *goals* are the same as Littlefingers.

I don't think her end game is to become Queen in the North, or even lady of Winterfell. Becoming the master of Winterfell might be a way to achieve her goal, but it is not necessarily her end game.

I think she wants to find a place where she belongs, where she feels safe, and in control of her own fate. If that is under her brother as King on the North, I don't think that *necessarily* is a problem for her. It might be, if she doesn't feel she can actually trust him.

But I don't think she is playing the game for power for it's own sake, the way Littlefinger does...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 11:03:57 AM
forgot tarly is just a count (and the other details mentioned by minsky). bad guy general in bad girl's army fits the show, but yeah, it's more of a stretch
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:07:17 AM
I agree with Berkut's assessment re Sansa

Otherwise - the way the season ended it is hard to see how they are going to make the Targ Reconquista interesting.  She has the dragons, dothraki hordes, unsullied, two of the strongest and richest Houses, the "yara" fleet, Varys and his bag of tricks.  Cersei has her own house (minus poor Kevan), an alliance with the now leaderless and unmartial Freys, and . . . that's about all folks, unless a few stormlander lords stay loyal.  How is this not going to be a cakewalk?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 11:13:10 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:07:17 AM
I agree with Berkut's assessment re Sansa

Otherwise - the way the season ended it is hard to see how they are going to make the Targ Reconquista interesting.  She has the dragons, dothraki hordes, unsullied, two of the strongest and richest Houses, the "yara" fleet, Varys and his bag of tricks.  Cersei has her own house (minus poor Kevan), an alliance with the now leaderless and unmartial Freys, and . . . that's about all folks, unless a few stormlander lords stay loyal.  How is this not going to be a cakewalk?

I don't really think that Cersei will take it to the field, she'll bunker down in King's Landing, and I guess that Dany won't want to blow it all up. Cersei will have Jaime in her midst to worry about as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
So we have the long anticipated reveal that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So that is good....but...

How is it going to be revealed to anyone other than Bran? Assuming Bran even gets to Winterfell, why would anyone believe him?

The only person who was there who is still alive is Howland Reed, and even he doesn't seem like a very convincing eyewitness to anyone not inclined to backing Jon anyway...

Curious to see how this comes out...

From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:17:41 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:07:17 AM
Otherwise - the way the season ended it is hard to see how they are going to make the Targ Reconquista interesting.  She has the dragons, dothraki hordes, unsullied, two of the strongest and richest Houses, the "yara" fleet, Varys and his bag of tricks.  Cersei has her own house (minus poor Kevan), an alliance with the now leaderless and unmartial Freys, and . . . that's about all folks, unless a few stormlander lords stay loyal.  How is this not going to be a cakewalk?

:yes:  Hence my crack earlier about how long Cersei would actually be Queen.  I suspect she'll be dethroned by the end of next season, but I don't see how it isn't even faster than that.  Presumably, Euron will gum up the works.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right?

Correct Dany has the better claim, OTOH Targs have a history of sibling marriage . . .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:18:10 AM
Euron + Cersei?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:20:34 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right?

Correct Dany has the better claim, OTOH Targs have a history of sibling marriage . . .

Jon likes redheads, though.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:21:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:18:10 AM
Euron + Cersei?

Perhaps not deliberately, but more like co-belligerents.  Euron in the books is up to so gnarly shit that they have only barely hinted at in the show.  If they do something similar, he will have a huge effect on coming events.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 11:22:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:20:34 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right?

Correct Dany has the better claim, OTOH Targs have a history of sibling marriage . . .

Jon likes redheads, though.  :hmm:

Well, he just exiled Mel anyway...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:23:04 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:18:10 AM
Euron + Cersei?

Nothing that could stand up to the Dany coalition on land.
Euron would have to use the magic time slips to jumpstart the greatest feat of naval construction since the Essex carriers were built.  And make them out of fireproof wood . . .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 27, 2016, 11:26:17 AM
aren't the final two seasons cut short by a few episodes? cersei falling by episode 3 or 4 leaves enough time to deal with the aftermath before the wall falls and everyone reacts -> end of season. I don't think we're meant to think cersei has a chance against daenerys, more that this was an extremely hollow victory for cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:29:06 AM
Yes, the last seasons are going to be truncated.  One of the directors confirmed next season was only 7 episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 11:30:40 AM
In the books Euron claims to have the magic horn to control dragons, I wonder if they'll pull that off next season...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:34:54 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 11:30:40 AM
In the books Euron claims to have the magic horn to control dragons, I wonder if they'll pull that off next season...

I doubt it.  We'll get summoned krakens, instead.   :menace:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 11:34:55 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:29:06 AM
Yes, the last season are going to be truncated.  One of the directors confirmed next season was only 7 episodes.

I recall reading that season 7 was going to be eight episodes, and season 9 was going to be seven:  fifteen total episodes to go.

The reason stated was the long production times (lots of dragon time, walker time, and wildfire CGI, is my guess).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on June 27, 2016, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
So we have the long anticipated reveal that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So that is good....but...

How is it going to be revealed to anyone other than Bran? Assuming Bran even gets to Winterfell, why would anyone believe him?

The only person who was there who is still alive is Howland Reed, and even he doesn't seem like a very convincing eyewitness to anyone not inclined to backing Jon anyway...

Curious to see how this comes out...

From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?

My extremely uneducated guess at one possibility: at some point or other Jon gets burnt by dragonfire, only he remains unscathed due to his heritage. That would seem a pretty solid indication.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2016, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
So we have the long anticipated reveal that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So that is good....but...

How is it going to be revealed to anyone other than Bran? Assuming Bran even gets to Winterfell, why would anyone believe him?

The only person who was there who is still alive is Howland Reed, and even he doesn't seem like a very convincing eyewitness to anyone not inclined to backing Jon anyway...

Curious to see how this comes out...

From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?

My extremely uneducated guess at one possibility: at some point or other Jon gets burnt by dragonfire, only he remains unscathed due to his heritage. That would seem a pretty solid indication.

I was thinking maybe as an explanation for why the dragons tolerate him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on June 27, 2016, 12:05:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 12:03:00 PM
I was thinking maybe as an explanation for why the dragons tolerate him?

Yeah, something like that. "The proof is in the dragons," as the old saying goes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on June 27, 2016, 12:39:11 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 11:20:34 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right?

Correct Dany has the better claim, OTOH Targs have a history of sibling marriage . . .

Jon likes redheads, though.  :hmm:

Jon's other sibling.  Lots of shots this episode of Jon+Sansa = Ned+Cat
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 01:01:02 PM
Well, it's either the cousin-who-thinks-he's-her-brother or the aunt-who-doesn't-know-they're-related.

Incest is wincest.  :yeah:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 01:05:00 PM
If Bran shows up, it could be that he finds someone who is no relation at all...but turns out to be his twin sister!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 01:30:54 PM
:blurgh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2016, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
So we have the long anticipated reveal that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So that is good....but...

How is it going to be revealed to anyone other than Bran? Assuming Bran even gets to Winterfell, why would anyone believe him?

The only person who was there who is still alive is Howland Reed, and even he doesn't seem like a very convincing eyewitness to anyone not inclined to backing Jon anyway...

Curious to see how this comes out...

From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?
I guess the tree where bran was dropped off is the one just north of the wall where Jon said his vows.
Don't think getting to winterfell will be an issue. 

Though   coldhands really should have hung around until they were safely through.  Pfff .

I wonder how they'll deal with bran, the legal heir, showing up. I doubt they will cover it much and will just shrug it off for more important things
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 27, 2016, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2016, 12:05:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 12:03:00 PM
I was thinking maybe as an explanation for why the dragons tolerate him?

Yeah, something like that. "The proof is in the dragons," as the old saying goes.

Hmm, good possibility. I was wondering how Jon's heritage would play out and that's one idea. He's King in the North now and gaining banner men and while that would probably be enough for him, it's likely that he'll go further.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on June 27, 2016, 02:02:41 PM
Great episode in the Finale. I was wondering how/if they could top the previous week but they did or at least it was just as interesting and amazing.

I kind of expected to see Arya show up the way she did, given that she does have those new fearsome abilities, but still awesome. It was so cool seeing her remove the mask and take down old man Frey. I've been wanting to see the Freys go down ever since reading the books.  :ph34r:

Cersei once again gained the power, pulled off quite the coup in taking out the religious group and other opponents, an "explosive" plot line.  :pope:  Making enemies of the Tyrells, but they were already on very shaky ground.   :ultra:

Daenerys will dock in Dorne, as we saw Varys meeting  with the Dornes and elder Tyrell. Now they'll be allies vs Lanisters and their followers. I'm strongly assuming that The Northerners will also be allies with Daenerys, Dorne, Tyrels. Or could there be a three way war for the Iron Throne?

Jon is the new King in the North and likely that's all he wants, but will he have a desire or right to the Throne of Westeros? Little Finger showed what wasn't too much a surprise in wanting the Iron Throne. That'll setup his downfall as Daenerys will be the one most likely, opening up another interesting battle of wills. Little Finger is so devious but he has no idea what's coming with Daenerys and her army, dragons and allies.   :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 02:12:44 PM
Jon Starkgaryen has no interest in the throne, and nor should he.  His fight is against the real enemy.  His only goal going forward will be bringing as many people together as possible to face off against the White Walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 10:55:03 AM
And this goes in line with the reputation of the Faceless Men anyway. They are, in fact, supposed to be just that good. Wasn't the joke in the books something like if you find out they are after you, you might as well just go lie down and die and avoid the trouble?
Usually, a Faceless man will hit one or two targets and leave.  Just like assassins in real life.  Targets aren't usually linked, outside of mafia/organized crime hits that target a specific faction.  But then, people tend to notice and try to take steps to avoid being killed.  Or they decide to play the men of honor game and die.

Also, she isn't 100% "Faceless man", and she does not have an entire network at her disposal.  She is alone, and she picks targets that hurt her & her family.  If the body count starts climbing, someone will notice a trend and protect themselves accordingly.
In any case, it's not like there are a ton of people still alive on her list.  One could say she her revenge on the Hound, so that pretty much leaves Cersei still alive.

Arya's list:
- Ser Amory Lorch - dead
- Chiswyck - not in the series.
- Dunsen - don't think he's in the series either.
- Ser Gregor Clegane - half dead.
- King Joffrey Baratheon - dead
- Ser Meryn Trant - dead
- Polliver - dead
- Raff the Sweetling - dead
- Sandor Clegane (as The Hound) - Maybe she considers she has had her revenge by letting him in the state he was.
- The Tickler - dead.
- Weese - not in the series

That leaves:  Ser Ilyn Payne and Cersei being fully alive.
Killing Payne would not be too hard, but approching Cersei would be really hard.  She would need to take the face of one of Cersei's servant (can Faceless men look like someone from the opposite sex?) with all the risks that it carries.

My guess is, she will move further north to Winterfell, possibly to kill the Boltons, but she'll learn along the way they are both dead, so she'll rejoin her sister.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 27, 2016, 02:30:02 PM
Has Ilyn Payne been in the series after the first season?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 02:32:08 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 27, 2016, 02:30:02 PM
Has Ilyn Payne been in the series after the first season?

Nope.  The actor had some unfortunate health issues.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?
a bastard has a claim so long as other recognizes his claim.
Gendry could be a threat to Cersei, that is why she tried to kill all of Robert's bastards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 27, 2016, 02:32:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:07:17 AM
I agree with Berkut's assessment re Sansa

Otherwise - the way the season ended it is hard to see how they are going to make the Targ Reconquista interesting.  She has the dragons, dothraki hordes, unsullied, two of the strongest and richest Houses, the "yara" fleet, Varys and his bag of tricks.  Cersei has her own house (minus poor Kevan), an alliance with the now leaderless and unmartial Freys, and . . . that's about all folks, unless a few stormlander lords stay loyal.  How is this not going to be a cakewalk?
Yes, Dany's alliance seems a bit too broad. I hope there are some hickups for her on the way to King's Landing. Some duplicity? But all of her allies must hate Cersei more than her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 02:34:03 PM
I suspect you'll start seeing some fraying at the edges of Dany's coalition, but they won't break apart until King's Landing is sacked/burning to the ground.  At that point, with Daenarys newly-crowned, it's either unify against the White Walkers or shatter and go in different directions.  Possibly both at the same time, if Littlefinger has anything to say about it...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 02:37:42 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 11:30:40 AM
In the books Euron claims to have the magic horn to control dragons, I wonder if they'll pull that off next season...
My guess is, he will be all confident, "march" his fleet to face Daenerys and her dragons, sound the horn... and then die in a horrible fire.  Or the Wall will fall as he sounds the horn...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 02:43:08 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 27, 2016, 01:42:34 PM
I guess the tree where bran was dropped off is the one just north of the wall where Jon said his vows.
Don't think getting to winterfell will be an issue. 

Though   coldhands really should have hung around until they were safely through.  Pfff .
yes, he should have.
However, if they want to show the scene at the wood + the Wall, they add some time, they had the Wall (CGI) + some characters.  The result is they go overbudget and overtime.  And waiting next year to do it with Brenjen means they have to bring back an actor just for one scene of the season, which adds some more costs, more so thant waiving him goodbye in the season finale.

Quote
I wonder how they'll deal with bran, the legal heir, showing up. I doubt they will cover it much and will just shrug it off for more important things
He's a cripple and the 3-eyed raven.  I don't think he even wants to rule Winterfell.  His mission is to find a way to defeat the White Walkers, and he'll likely die in the process.  Or he'll marry the Reed girl, move to the Crag, have children and live happily ever after.  That would be something new for this show.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 03:10:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 02:12:44 PM
Jon Starkgaryen has no interest in the throne, and nor should he.  His fight is against the real enemy.  His only goal going forward will be bringing as many people together as possible to face off against the White Walkers.

True, but Dany is barren and it would appear that Jon (or Jon's progeny) would be her only heir.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 03:58:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
So we have the long anticipated reveal that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So that is good....but...

How is it going to be revealed to anyone other than Bran? Assuming Bran even gets to Winterfell, why would anyone believe him?

The only person who was there who is still alive is Howland Reed, and even he doesn't seem like a very convincing eyewitness to anyone not inclined to backing Jon anyway...

Curious to see how this comes out...

From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?

Pretty much the definition of bastard is the inability to inherit.  A bastard can be legitimized, but has no claim if not legitimized.

I suspect that the proof of Jon's heritage will come from something to do with a flaming sword.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 04:19:20 PM
Nobody has mentioned Tommen!

That was a great scene, it completely surprised me I have to admit, although the moment afterwards it made perfect sense. THAT is good writing, IMO. If you can both surprise me and make me think it made absolute sense, and be a powerful moment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 04:24:03 PM
I mentioned Tommen in my predictions.  :yeah:

But I didn't know he was going to kill himself until the moment the camera lingered on the open window when he went to put away his crown.  That sort of camera angle is never good for a character's longevity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 04:26:18 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 04:24:03 PM
I mentioned Tommen in my predictions.  :yeah:

But I didn't know he was going to kill himself until the moment the camera lingered on the open window when he went to put away his crown.  That sort of camera angle is never good for a character's longevity.

Yeah, when he left the frame and the camera kept focused on the open window you knew it couldn't end well for him.

Tbh, when he was about to leave and Cleganestein prevented him from leaving I was already in "shit is coming down" mode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 04:38:08 PM
Him dying was no surprise, but suicide was, but that makes sense given what happened to his wife and who did it...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 27, 2016, 04:39:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 04:19:20 PM
Nobody has mentioned Tommen!

That was a great scene, it completely surprised me I have to admit, although the moment afterwards it made perfect sense. THAT is good writing, IMO. If you can both surprise me and make me think it made absolute sense, and be a powerful moment.
Yes, that was one of the best scenes. Cersei was a bit too cold about it though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 04:40:34 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 27, 2016, 04:39:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 04:19:20 PM
Nobody has mentioned Tommen!

That was a great scene, it completely surprised me I have to admit, although the moment afterwards it made perfect sense. THAT is good writing, IMO. If you can both surprise me and make me think it made absolute sense, and be a powerful moment.
Yes, that was one of the best scenes. Cersei was a bit too cold about it though.

Yes, I was expecting her to be more heartbroken, but she just shrugged it off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 27, 2016, 04:42:07 PM
She already lost him the the sparrow. And he crossed her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 04:49:54 PM
I think she is just pretty numb to it all now. She is completely broken at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 27, 2016, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?
Is he?  The narrative that is tied to is that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna.  If it was voluntary, they may have been married.  Perhaps it is something Jamie might know as a member of the Kingsguard at the time but never mentioned due to not wanting to offend Robert and not being overly relevant since Rhaegar and Lyanna were both dead and no one outside of Ned and possibly Howland Reed knew of Jon.

Something that comes to mind is the possibility of conflict between the North and Dany.  She has expressed that she is there for all of the Seven Kingdoms and is unwilling to see them splinter, even if it means gaining her allies.  The oath swearing King in the North Part II scene seems to suggest that the North is once again dedicated to being independent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 06:02:20 PM
I do have a hard time imagining the honorable Rhaegar making the bastard with his true love. He always tried to live up to the ideals in his books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 27, 2016, 06:10:56 PM
Anyone familiar with Pruit Igoe and Prophecies by Philip Glass?  It was used in the Watchmen trailers and movie.  It reminded me very heavily of the music in various parts of the season finale.  I nabbed the soundtrack to this latest season, but I haven't had a chance to fully listen to it yet to confirm my theory.  I'll toss a link in for reference purposes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NScKjz4cNY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 27, 2016, 05:58:32 PM
Something that comes to mind is the possibility of conflict between the North and Dany.  She has expressed that she is there for all of the Seven Kingdoms and is unwilling to see them splinter, even if it means gaining her allies.  The oath swearing King in the North Part II scene seems to suggest that the North is once again dedicated to being independent.

Doesn't follow.  The KitN is for the same reason it was done with Robb - the existing Crown would not tolerate a Stark restoration and otherwise they would just be rebels.  Jon Snow presumably is worried principally about the threat across the wall.  He isn't going to hold back recognition if it compromises the defense  of the Noth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 27, 2016, 06:22:09 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 27, 2016, 05:58:32 PM
Something that comes to mind is the possibility of conflict between the North and Dany.  She has expressed that she is there for all of the Seven Kingdoms and is unwilling to see them splinter, even if it means gaining her allies.  The oath swearing King in the North Part II scene seems to suggest that the North is once again dedicated to being independent.

Doesn't follow.  The KitN is for the same reason it was done with Robb - the existing Crown would not tolerate a Stark restoration and otherwise they would just be rebels.  Jon Snow presumably is worried principally about the threat across the wall.  He isn't going to hold back recognition if it compromises the defense  of the Noth.
It's more than just him though.  The nobles seem rather committed to the idea of a free North.  He is beholden to them and their wishes as they are to him.  I'm not saying it is guaranteed to happen, but it does have some legs to stand on as an option.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2016, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 06:15:28 PM
Doesn't follow.  The KitN is for the same reason it was done with Robb - the existing Crown would not tolerate a Stark restoration and otherwise they would just be rebels.  Jon Snow presumably is worried principally about the threat across the wall.  He isn't going to hold back recognition if it compromises the defense  of the Noth.

Disagree.  The one constant of the book and series is centripital pull.  The cases where loyalties and legitimacy overrule brute strength are the exception, not the rule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on June 27, 2016, 06:43:30 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 27, 2016, 06:10:56 PM
Anyone familiar with Pruit Igoe and Prophecies by Philip Glass?  It was used in the Watchmen trailers and movie.  It reminded me very heavily of the music in various parts of the season finale.  I nabbed the soundtrack to this latest season, but I haven't had a chance to fully listen to it yet to confirm my theory.  I'll toss a link in for reference purposes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NScKjz4cNY
...and found the GoT music that reminded me of it!  Once again, linkage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS-gbqbVd8c&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 06:44:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 06:02:20 PM
I do have a hard time imagining the honorable Rhaegar making the bastard with his true love. He always tried to live up to the ideals in his books.

Well, it seemed that he was more interested in following the prince that was promised prophecy rather than love and passion, so who knows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 07:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2016, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 06:15:28 PM
Doesn't follow.  The KitN is for the same reason it was done with Robb - the existing Crown would not tolerate a Stark restoration and otherwise they would just be rebels.  Jon Snow presumably is worried principally about the threat across the wall.  He isn't going to hold back recognition if it compromises the defense  of the Noth.

Disagree.  The one constant of the book and series is centripital pull.  The cases where loyalties and legitimacy overrule brute strength are the exception, not the rule.

But the situation is a unique one:  the threat from beyond the Wall is something no one has seen before.  Jon needs help or his kingdom and everyone in it is going to be wiped out.  He's not going to insist on independence when that insistence will doom every one of his subjects.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 07:17:57 PM
He was alrady married. I don't think you can make much of an argument based on "honor" for a guy who was already married with kids running off with someone else t begin with, and throwing polygamy into it (which I don't even think would be recognized as a legitimate marriage in the Seven Kingdons anyway) doesn't improve his standing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 27, 2016, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 07:17:57 PM
He was alrady married. I don't think you can make much of an argument based on "honor" for a guy who was already married with kids running off with someone else t begin with, and throwing polygamy into it (which I don't even think would be recognized as a legitimate marriage in the Seven Kingdons anyway) doesn't improve his standing.

There had been polygamous Targ kings in the past, the Targs always had a "we're above human laws" air to them, that's why they also married brothers and sisters, unthinkable for any other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 07:25:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 06:02:20 PM
I do have a hard time imagining the honorable Rhaegar making the bastard with his true love. He always tried to live up to the ideals in his books.

The Targaryens engaged in both incestuous marriage and multiple marriages in the past, so it is possible that BA and you are correct that R and L were married.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
Learn something new every day - I was not aware of the multiple marriages bit. That would make things rather interesting, now wouldn't it?

Although....

Jon would not have been born when Rhaegar was killed. Would he be in line, since presumably a child in the womb is not an heir (seeing as you would not even know the sex, much less that it even exists potentially).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:05:00 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 03:10:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 27, 2016, 02:12:44 PM
Jon Starkgaryen has no interest in the throne, and nor should he.  His fight is against the real enemy.  His only goal going forward will be bringing as many people together as possible to face off against the White Walkers.

True, but Dany is barren and it would appear that Jon (or Jon's progeny) would be her only heir.
Quote from: grumbler on June 27, 2016, 03:58:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
So we have the long anticipated reveal that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So that is good....but...

How is it going to be revealed to anyone other than Bran? Assuming Bran even gets to Winterfell, why would anyone believe him?

The only person who was there who is still alive is Howland Reed, and even he doesn't seem like a very convincing eyewitness to anyone not inclined to backing Jon anyway...

Curious to see how this comes out...

From a claim standpoint, he is still a bastard though, right? If a bastard has a claim, one would think Gendry would be a viable heir at this point....what in the hell every happened to him anyway?

Pretty much the definition of bastard is the inability to inherit.  A bastard can be legitimized, but has no claim if not legitimized.

I suspect that the proof of Jon's heritage will come from something to do with a flaming sword.
William the Conqueror inherited Normandy despite being a bastard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:12:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 06:02:20 PM
I do have a hard time imagining the honorable Rhaegar making the bastard with his true love. He always tried to live up to the ideals in his books.
Viserys states that Rhaegar took Lyanna out of love, they fled together, he did not kidnap her.
And Barristan Selmy did say Rhaegar was the most honorable man he met, and he did not like the fighting.

Also, I had to go back to be sure, to read Cersei's prohecy.

Cersei asks if she will wed the prince she has been promised to. Maggie replies she will "marry the king." Cersei's second question is quickly taken up by her asking if she will be queen. Maggy insists she will be, but only "for a time." She elaborates on this, "Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear." Finally, young Cersei asks if she and the king will have children. "The king will have twenty children, and you will have three... Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," replies Maggy.


I think I've said it before, the younger more beautiful queen is Daenerys, while she always thought it would be Margeary.  As others have said, if next season is only 7-8 episodes, it's not impossible that Cersei could be dead by the 4th.

"to cast you down and take all you hold dear" could mean not only the Kingdom, but maybe Jaimie will abandon Cersei for Daenerys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:12:44 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:05:00 PM
William the Conqueror inherited Normandy despite being a bastard.

Yet none of William's son's 20 bastards could inherit the throne of England or Normandy which led to the Anarchy. Huh. Consistency may not be Medieval world's strong suit. But in Westeros the rules seem pretty clear. A bastard is not even considered a member of your family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:16:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:12:32 PM
Also, I had to go back to be sure, to read Cersei's prohecy.

Cersei asks if she will wed the prince she has been promised to. Maggie replies she will "marry the king." Cersei's second question is quickly taken up by her asking if she will be queen. Maggy insists she will be, but only "for a time." She elaborates on this, "Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear." Finally, young Cersei asks if she and the king will have children. "The king will have twenty children, and you will have three... Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," replies Maggy.


I have to say if I got the prophecy I would not have married any kings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:19:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:12:44 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:05:00 PM
William the Conqueror inherited Normandy despite being a bastard.

Yet none of William's son's 20 bastards could inherit the throne of England or Normandy which led to the Anarchy. Huh. Consistency may not be Medieval world's strong suit. But in Westeros the rules seem pretty clear. A bastard is not even considered a member of your family.
The bastards of England or Normandy could not inherit because there were legitimate heirs, no?

In Westeros, a bastard can be legitimized (Ramsey Bolton) or be recognized as legitimate (Jon Snow).  Cersei had most of Robert's bastards executed because she thought they could represent a threat to her children.  She was the biggest threat to them all along, but hey, she never realized it. ;)

So, it's not an automatism that a bastard can become heir (far from it), but if he proves lineage and gets support, it can happen. I guess there are multiple examples of that in medieval history too.  Of course, to get support, there is likely the need for absence of a "stronger" heir.  If the Northmen knew Bran was still alive, they might not have elected Jon King in the North.  But there is a Sansa, a girl who does not seem so inclined to rule (because it paints a target in her back, and renders her vulnerable to Littlefinger's scheming, now, she is of no interests, really, because she does not bring the North with her), so they picked Jon Snow.  Possibly with some behind the scenes encouragement from Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:21:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:16:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:12:32 PM
Also, I had to go back to be sure, to read Cersei's prohecy.

Cersei asks if she will wed the prince she has been promised to. Maggie replies she will "marry the king." Cersei's second question is quickly taken up by her asking if she will be queen. Maggy insists she will be, but only "for a time." She elaborates on this, "Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear." Finally, young Cersei asks if she and the king will have children. "The king will have twenty children, and you will have three... Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," replies Maggy.


I have to say if I got the prophecy I would not have married any kings.
Did women really had a choice whom to marry in medieval times?  In Westeros, outside of Dorne, maybe, I don't think they really do.  Unless they command a pirate fleet, or an army with 3 dragons.

Besides, I think Cersei hoped to marry Rhaegar, not Robert.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on June 27, 2016, 08:22:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
Learn something new every day - I was not aware of the multiple marriages bit. That would make things rather interesting, now wouldn't it?

Although....

Jon would not have been born when Rhaegar was killed. Would he be in line, since presumably a child in the womb is not an heir (seeing as you would not even know the sex, much less that it even exists potentially).
posthumous heirs were a thing weren't they?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:21:33 PM
Did women really had a choice whom to marry in medieval times?

In real life? Theoretically it was against Church law to force anybody to marry against their will. So the woman had to consent to the marriage. Of course your family had several carrots and sticks they could deploy whether you were a man or woman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:27:21 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 27, 2016, 08:22:37 PM
posthumous heirs were a thing weren't they?

Yes. Yes they were. In fact one King of Persia was crowned in utero.

And players of EU2 will remember this dude: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_the_Posthumous
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 08:28:06 PM
A bastard cannot inherit, but as in all things when it comes to inheritance, the ability to make even a spurious argument when there are other reasons to support a claim is really all that is needed, which is why even a bsatard child of a prostitute is a "threat".

Jon Snow is not just some bastard, he is the child of the ruling house and their most prestigious member and the daughter of one of the most powerful lords in the realm. He is not just *any* bastard.

Hell, look at Renly. He had zero legitimate claim, and yet he would have been king had he simply won.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:29:04 PM
Well he was supposedly second in line. Hardly zero legitimate claim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
Zero legitimate claim when their is a clear first in line.

It's not like there was any lack of certainty that anyone could play off of - the only possible way Renly could be legit is through Stannis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on June 27, 2016, 08:42:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:07:17 AM
I agree with Berkut's assessment re Sansa

Otherwise - the way the season ended it is hard to see how they are going to make the Targ Reconquista interesting.  She has the dragons, dothraki hordes, unsullied, two of the strongest and richest Houses, the "yara" fleet, Varys and his bag of tricks.  Cersei has her own house (minus poor Kevan), an alliance with the now leaderless and unmartial Freys, and . . . that's about all folks, unless a few stormlander lords stay loyal.  How is this not going to be a cakewalk?

The real baddies are still north of the wall
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 09:12:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2016, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:21:33 PM
Did women really had a choice whom to marry in medieval times?

In real life? Theoretically it was against Church law to force anybody to marry against their will. So the woman had to consent to the marriage. Of course your family had several carrots and sticks they could deploy whether you were a man or woman.
yeah, well, "Marry him or enter the convent" does not categorize as free will for me ;)

Could a noble woman really pick the man of her choice?  I doubt it.

It's pretty much established in Westeros it ain't that way.  Lady Tyrell tells it herself she never married out of love.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:05:00 PM

William the Conqueror inherited Normandy despite being a bastard.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, but Bastard Bill was an exception in Christian Europe, not the norm.  Bastardy was quite common, and in some countries Bastards were given special titles.  Sometimes they could be legitimized by legal fiat, but if they were expected to inherent then a civil war was likely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 27, 2016, 11:40:09 PM
I just finished watching it.
Wow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:44:45 PM
One thing about ASOIF is that while "blood" is transmitted, genes apparently do not exist, as incest seems to have no negative effects beyond occasional madness in progeny.  Example - Zero genetic defects in the three children of fraternal twins.  If the Thutmosids had been in Martin's universe, they still would be ruling Egypt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 11:58:27 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:44:45 PM
One thing about ASOIF is that while "blood" is transmitted, genes apparently do not exist, as incest seems to have no negative effects beyond occasional madness in progeny.  Example - Zero genetic defects in the three children of fraternal twins.  If the Thutmosids had been in Martin's universe, they still would be ruling Egypt.

I'm not sure how much inbreeding is necessary to see noticeable genetic defects.  Most people in the middle ages were inbred due to cousin marriage, and much of the Arab world is now for the same reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 28, 2016, 07:46:26 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:05:00 PM
William the Conqueror inherited Normandy despite being a bastard.

He was legitimized.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 28, 2016, 07:55:25 AM
Jon Snow was not legitimized, he was just acknowledged.  To be acknowledged by a noble parent removes the stigma of being baseborn, but doesn't make you legitimate (i.e. an heir).

Jon sis King of the North by acclamation, not by inheritance.  Much as Robert Baratheon became King of the Seven Kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 28, 2016, 08:36:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
Learn something new every day - I was not aware of the multiple marriages bit. That would make things rather interesting, now wouldn't it?

Although....

Jon would not have been born when Rhaegar was killed. Would he be in line, since presumably a child in the womb is not an heir (seeing as you would not even know the sex, much less that it even exists potentially).
I can't remember the time line....but was jons  birth after the mad kings death too?
A unborn kid being king seems iffy (though there are historic examples) but an unborn heir seems quite standard, even if it is a grandson rather than a son.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 28, 2016, 08:39:52 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2016, 08:36:52 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
Learn something new every day - I was not aware of the multiple marriages bit. That would make things rather interesting, now wouldn't it?

Although....

Jon would not have been born when Rhaegar was killed. Would he be in line, since presumably a child in the womb is not an heir (seeing as you would not even know the sex, much less that it even exists potentially).
I can't remember the time line....but was jons  birth after the mad kings death too?
A unborn kid being king seems iffy (though there are historic examples) but an unborn heir seems quite standard, even if it is a grandson rather than a son.

Both Jon and Daenerys were born after Aerys' death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 08:42:35 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 09:12:08 PM
yeah, well, "Marry him or enter the convent" does not categorize as free will for me ;)

Well they couldn't force them to enter a convent either. But they could be disinherited.

QuoteCould a noble woman really pick the man of her choice?  I doubt it.

It's complicated. But I never said 'pick' I said 'consent'. But remember these noble women were people of their time. For the most part they wanted to do what their societies expected them to do.

QuoteIt's pretty much established in Westeros it ain't that way.  Lady Tyrell tells it herself she never married out of love.

Marrying for love is kind of a 19th century thing anyway. Which is also when people started getting disinherited alot for marrying out of love come to think of it.

Besides you are acting like noblemen did marry out of love. Marriage was negotiated between families.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 08:42:59 AM
I guess I just imagine inheritance, at least in theory, being kind of an instantaneous thing.

King dies, at that moment his heir is the new king, even if he hasn't been officially crowned yet.

But you might be right - Rhaegar was dead *before* his father. So how does that work?

If the king has two sons, and his sons both have sons, and the eldest son dies before the king, the next son becomes the heir, right? Not the son (grandson of the king) of the prince?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 08:44:20 AM
Typically the grandson would.

But, you know, these things were not written in stone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 28, 2016, 08:59:36 AM
Yes.... surely there's been a historic example of this?
King dies.  Son 2 becomes king.... then son 1s kid is born.
Is son 1s kid the heir of son 2? (Until son 2 has kids? Forever?) Is he totally out of the succession?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 28, 2016, 09:06:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 08:42:59 AM
I guess I just imagine inheritance, at least in theory, being kind of an instantaneous thing.

King dies, at that moment his heir is the new king, even if he hasn't been officially crowned yet.

But you might be right - Rhaegar was dead *before* his father. So how does that work?

If the king has two sons, and his sons both have sons, and the eldest son dies before the king, the next son becomes the heir, right? Not the son (grandson of the king) of the prince?

Nope, grandson first, younger sons afterwards. That's the "traditional" way, but there were lots of mixed formulas for inheritance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 09:08:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 28, 2016, 08:59:36 AM
Yes.... surely there's been a historic example of this?
King dies.  Son 2 becomes king.... then son 1s kid is born.
Is son 1s kid the heir of son 2? (Until son 2 has kids? Forever?) Is he totally out of the succession?

Well the posthumous birth of the oldest son is a pretty rare occurrence. There probably is but I cannot think of one.

As for the grandson inheriting, well Richard II was son of the Black Prince (who died before Edward III) and he inherited ahead of his uncles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on June 28, 2016, 11:34:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 08:42:59 AM
I guess I just imagine inheritance, at least in theory, being kind of an instantaneous thing.

King dies, at that moment his heir is the new king, even if he hasn't been officially crowned yet.

My understanding is that in Europe at least Kingship was only official once the king was anointed/ proclaimed/ crowned/ whatever the local process was. Before then, at most you'd be the king-in-waiting/ presumed king/ something like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 11:36:37 AM
Have you guys never played Crusader Kings II? There are different inheritance laws in Medieval Europe, not just agnatic primogeniture (Salic law).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 11:36:45 AM
No Berkut is right. 'The King is dead, Long live the King!'

Only Holy Roman Emperors had that weird status before they were officially crowned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 11:41:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 11:36:45 AM
No Berkut is right. 'The King is dead, Long live the King!'

Only Holy Roman Emperors had that weird status before they were officially crowned.
The King of Germany (officially called "King of the Romans") was elected by the leading nobles temporal and spiritual of the realm. There was no Holy Roman Emperor that wasn't also elected King of Germany before and the crowning of a German king as Roman Emperor was optional but didn't really dimish the legal rights of the king in Germany. So the whole "The king is dead, long live the king!" concept didn't apply because there was no succession by inheritance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 28, 2016, 11:43:38 AM
I wonder if Gregor Clegane is now classified as one of the undead and can now only be killed with fire.  If so it would make sense for Sandor to join with the Brothers without Banners where he would have the chance to kill his brother with the help of Thoros of Myr.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
It's not really clear if the various undead in the books and TV series are all the same.

There seem to be various classes:
Resurrected by Red Priests (Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart, Jon Snow)
Resurrected by a fallen Maester (Gregor Clegane)
Created as undead by the Children of the Forest (The Night King and his retinue)
Created as undead by the Night King (the zombies in Hardhome)
Some other status (Benjen Stark/Coldhands)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 11:52:32 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 11:41:50 AM
So the whole "The king is dead, long live the king!" concept didn't apply because there was no succession by inheritance.

True. If a monarchy is elected it is done that way.

But, to the best of my knowledge, no monarchy in Westeros is run that way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2016, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 27, 2016, 08:05:00 PM

William the Conqueror inherited Normandy despite being a bastard.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, but Bastard Bill was an exception in Christian Europe, not the norm.  Bastardy was quite common, and in some countries Bastards were given special titles.  Sometimes they could be legitimized by legal fiat, but if they were expected to inherent then a civil war was likely.
Nobody talked about it being the norm.  The question was asked if a bastard could inherit a title.  Yes, they could.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:55:53 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2016, 11:44:45 PM
One thing about ASOIF is that while "blood" is transmitted, genes apparently do not exist, as incest seems to have no negative effects beyond occasional madness in progeny.  Example - Zero genetic defects in the three children of fraternal twins.  If the Thutmosids had been in Martin's universe, they still would be ruling Egypt.
That's only one generation.  We do not know how all of the Targaryens looked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 08:42:35 AM
Besides you are acting like noblemen did marry out of love. Marriage was negotiated between families.
No, most would not.  Maybe very minor nobility with no suitable marriages, poor/peasant families, but certainly not influential nobles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on June 28, 2016, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 11:36:45 AM
No Berkut is right. 'The King is dead, Long live the King!'

Only Holy Roman Emperors had that weird status before they were officially crowned.

What do you base that on? That certainly doesn't describe the Scandinavian kingdoms in the middle ages. I'd expect it doesn't apply in most of Europe at least until you get close to the absolute monarchies. AFAIK, the coronation ceremony was of prime significance pretty much across the board in Europe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
It doesn't really seem that complicated to me..

Quote from: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
It's not really clear if the various undead in the books and TV series are all the same.

There seem to be various classes:
Resurrected by Red Priests (Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart, Jon Snow)

Not undead at all. The process of resurrection might have some negative effects, especially for those it is repeated on over and over, but in general someone resurrected is just like a normal person in every way.

Quote
Resurrected by a fallen Maester (Gregor Clegane)

I am not even sure Clegane was ever dead, very possible he was simply saved through some process that is dabbling into necromancy and dark magic. Certainly it is the case that the result is some kind of fucked up human being though.
Quote
Created as undead by the Children of the Forest (The Night King and his retinue)
Created as undead by the Night King (the zombies in Hardhome)

These are the two classic undead classes. The mindful undead, and the mindless undead. I don't think the mindless are all that hard to kill per se, maybe depending on the condition of the bodies?

The mindful undead are definitely rather hard to kill unless you have a sliver of obsidian, in which case they are stupidly easy to kill and should maybe invest in some leather armor or something.
Quote
Some other status (Benjen Stark/Coldhands)

Benjen is aborted example of one of the two "true" undeads - the children found him and rather than allow him to become a zombie, used a similar process to what they used to create the Night King to arrest his transformation, leaving him kinda sorta undead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
No, most would not.  Maybe very minor nobility with no suitable marriages, poor/peasant families, but certainly not influential nobles.

Then why almost all of them end up in socially/politically advantageous marriages and carry on with mistresses then? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 12:07:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
Not undead at all. The process of resurrection might have some negative effects, especially for those it is repeated on over and over, but in general someone resurrected is just like a normal person in every way.
Jon seems to be normal. Lady Stoneheart has a completely different personality than Catelyn Stark and not really a normal person (being half-rotten). Beric Dondarrion also seems to have lost parts of his previous personality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on June 28, 2016, 12:11:12 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 12:07:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
Not undead at all. The process of resurrection might have some negative effects, especially for those it is repeated on over and over, but in general someone resurrected is just like a normal person in every way.
Jon seems to be normal. Lady Stoneheart has a completely different personality than Catelyn Stark and not really a normal person (being half-rotten). Beric Dondarrion also seems to have lost parts of his previous personality.

IIRC, in the books Dondarrion said that every time he came back he felt more and more diminished, that even if his body was alive his mind was leaving him or something like that.

When the Brotherhood found Catelyn's corpse Thoros didn't want to resurrect her because she had been dead for far too long, that's why it was Dondarrion the one who performed the resurrection, dying himself in the process.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 12:07:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
Not undead at all. The process of resurrection might have some negative effects, especially for those it is repeated on over and over, but in general someone resurrected is just like a normal person in every way.
Jon seems to be normal. Lady Stoneheart has a completely different personality than Catelyn Stark and not really a normal person (being half-rotten). Beric Dondarrion also seems to have lost parts of his previous personality.

Like I said, the process of resurrection seems to have an effect. Jon was resurrected quickly after his death, and only the one time. Dondarrion said that each time if felt like he lost a little piece of himself, and he has been resurrected many, many times.

Catelyn was dead for some time, half rotten, and probably went basically mad from grief in the moments before her death. Her current status is driven more by that than anything to do with the resurrection per se.

It actually seems very much in line with the old D&D concepts of resurrection versus re-animation, with re-animation having varying levels of sentience associated to it, but being of a difference in kind from actual resurrection. Which isn't to say that resurrection doesn't have its own set of problems...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 28, 2016, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 08:42:59 AM
I guess I just imagine inheritance, at least in theory, being kind of an instantaneous thing.

King dies, at that moment his heir is the new king, even if he hasn't been officially crowned yet.

But you might be right - Rhaegar was dead *before* his father. So how does that work?

If the king has two sons, and his sons both have sons, and the eldest son dies before the king, the next son becomes the heir, right? Not the son (grandson of the king) of the prince?

As people have mentioned, the grandson inherits his father's estate, including his place in the succession.

Queen Victoria was only crowned as interim queen until it was confirmed that William IV's wife was not, in fact, pregnant as rumored.   This was explicitly stated in the Regency Act passed by Parliament.  Had Queen Adelaide given birth, that child would have inherited the throne, as Victoria was only a niece, not a child, of William IV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 28, 2016, 12:22:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
I am not even sure Clegane was ever dead, very possible he was simply saved through some process that is dabbling into necromancy and dark magic. Certainly it is the case that the result is some kind of fucked up human being though.

In the books at least, they did remove his head and sent it to Dorne, so it's hard to imagine he'd be alive through the whole process. I think he's more like Frankenstein's creature, mostly Clegane's body with some extra parts in place of his head. Not sure how the show does it, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on June 28, 2016, 12:22:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
I am not even sure Clegane was ever dead, very possible he was simply saved through some process that is dabbling into necromancy and dark magic. Certainly it is the case that the result is some kind of fucked up human being though.

In the books at least, they did remove his head and sent it to Dorne, so it's hard to imagine he'd be alive through the whole process. I think he's more like Frankenstein's creature, mostly Clegane's body with some extra parts in place of his head. Not sure how the show does it, though.

That's not necessarily true.  At no point do we know they removed his head--merely, we are told that they are sent something that might be his skull.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
No, most would not.  Maybe very minor nobility with no suitable marriages, poor/peasant families, but certainly not influential nobles.

Then why almost all of them end up in socially/politically advantageous marriages and carry on with mistresses then? :P
I meant they would not engage in marriages out of love for most of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
No, most would not.  Maybe very minor nobility with no suitable marriages, poor/peasant families, but certainly not influential nobles.

Then why almost all of them end up in socially/politically advantageous marriages and carry on with mistresses then? :P
I meant they would not engage in marriages out of love for most of them.

Right they entered the marriages their families told them to enter, like good boys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 28, 2016, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 28, 2016, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 11:36:45 AM
No Berkut is right. 'The King is dead, Long live the King!'

Only Holy Roman Emperors had that weird status before they were officially crowned.

What do you base that on? That certainly doesn't describe the Scandinavian kingdoms in the middle ages. I'd expect it doesn't apply in most of Europe at least until you get close to the absolute monarchies. AFAIK, the coronation ceremony was of prime significance pretty much across the board in Europe.

Indeed.  The child-monarch did, indeed, have a "weird status" before they were crowned, as the regent ruled in their name.  Louis XV of France was the king at age 5, but wasn't coronated (thus ending a regency) until he was 13.  Under the regency, the regent had all the actual power; the monarch had the "weird status" of having the name but no power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
No, most would not.  Maybe very minor nobility with no suitable marriages, poor/peasant families, but certainly not influential nobles.

Then why almost all of them end up in socially/politically advantageous marriages and carry on with mistresses then? :P
I meant they would not engage in marriages out of love for most of them.

Right they entered the marriages their families told them to enter, like good boys.
it was easier for boys, they knew they could keep a mistress on the side without too much trouble.  Harder for the girls.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2016, 03:22:30 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXSzQcDO.jpg&hash=352e8b821bc74abc7e8e9a02905d6e3154da4343)

I'm not unhappy with how they handled DaKinginDaNorf Pt2, but I would have enjoyed seeing Manderly a bit more than just someone to be shamed by Baby Mormont.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 03:23:33 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 03:18:10 PM
it was easier for boys, they knew they could keep a mistress on the side without too much trouble.  Harder for the girls.

Sure? Though of course many women did also have lots of affairs. I was not saying gender equality reigned. I was just talking about choice in marriage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2016, 03:22:30 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXSzQcDO.jpg&hash=352e8b821bc74abc7e8e9a02905d6e3154da4343)

I'm not unhappy with how they handled DaKinginDaNorf Pt2, but I would have enjoyed seeing Manderly a bit more than just someone to be shamed by Baby Mormont.

Yeah, I like where it went, but there is a part of me that finds it hard to believe that they would all be all that gung-ho over Jon.

They don't know him, they have no personal relationship to him, quite honestly the way the previous episode went they really ought to be questioning his competency, and the basic idea of a independent northern kingdom has to be looking a lot less compelling.

Hell, if you buy into the idea of the White Walkers coming, and independent North is actually a pretty terrible idea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 28, 2016, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
They don't know him, they have no personal relationship to him, quite honestly the way the previous episode went they really ought to be questioning his competency, and the basic idea of a independent northern kingdom has to be looking a lot less compelling.

Hell, if you buy into the idea of the White Walkers coming, and independent North is actually a pretty terrible idea.

It might look terrible if you are solely accounting on them needing aid from the other Kingdoms to keep the White Walkers at bay.  But that would be discounting the generations of pride, the religious differences, and the immense cultural gulf between the North and the other Kingdoms.  Basically, I think there are a lot of intangibles that go into the appeal of a King in the North rather than just being under the thumb of King's Landing.

And the fact that they'll soon hear of Queen Cersei the Incinerator, First of Her Name, means they aren't going back on that one any time soon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:35:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2016, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
They don't know him, they have no personal relationship to him, quite honestly the way the previous episode went they really ought to be questioning his competency, and the basic idea of a independent northern kingdom has to be looking a lot less compelling.

Hell, if you buy into the idea of the White Walkers coming, and independent North is actually a pretty terrible idea.

It might look terrible if you are solely accounting on them needing aid from the other Kingdoms to keep the White Walkers at bay.  But that would be discounting the generations of pride, the religious differences, and the immense cultural gulf between the North and the other Kingdoms.  Basically, I think there are a lot of intangibles that go into the appeal of a King in the North rather than just being under the thumb of King's Landing.

And the fact that they'll soon hear of Queen Cersei the Incinerator, First of Her Name, means they aren't going back on that one any time soon.

True - one thing that has changed since they declared Rob is several years of war and total chaos in the south. Well, in the north as well of course.

This could certainly make a lot more sense if their meeting happened right after getting a raven detailing the Mad Queen's latest moves...

I really want to see how Jaime reacts. He has to be thinking "WTF, I killed a king for contemplating what my sister just did..."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on June 28, 2016, 04:25:27 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIYNAaO0.jpg&hash=79b68ead625a8ff67638ee750893e9fed3f1d337)

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 28, 2016, 04:26:47 PM
The GoT twitter account just sent this out: https://twitter.com/GameOfThrones/status/747896544536465409
I suppose the "R" part of "R+L=J" is now secure as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 28, 2016, 04:55:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 09:08:06 AM
Well the posthumous birth of the oldest son is a pretty rare occurrence. There probably is but I cannot think of one.

Jean le Posthume, my francophilic friend.  Only lived a few days, however, unless you believe the Druon novels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 04:58:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2016, 03:23:33 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 03:18:10 PM
it was easier for boys, they knew they could keep a mistress on the side without too much trouble.  Harder for the girls.

Sure? Though of course many women did also have lots of affairs. I was not saying gender equality reigned. I was just talking about choice in marriage.
A women who falls pregnant while her husband is at war would look very suspicious ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
Yeah, I like where it went, but there is a part of me that finds it hard to believe that they would all be all that gung-ho over Jon.

They don't know him, they have no personal relationship to him, quite honestly the way the previous episode went they really ought to be questioning his competency, and the basic idea of a independent northern kingdom has to be looking a lot less compelling.

Hell, if you buy into the idea of the White Walkers coming, and independent North is actually a pretty terrible idea.
Well, they had no love for the Boltons, they just did not want to risk anything in a lost battle, according to them.

Now that Jon Snow won, the details may be sketchy for those who weren't there.  All they know is, he won, and Ramsey Bolton is dead.

Most of them have lost people to the Lannisters and the Freys and the Boltons.  The Boltons are no more.  They have nothing to expect from the Lannisters, the last time the Wall asked for help, they did not respond.

So if they buy into the theory of the White Walkers coming, Jon and an independant North are practically their only choices.  Swearing fealty to the Crown means they will have to send troops in the South sooner or later to help the Lannisters when they call for help.  They are effectively reducing their strenght by not declaring independance.  And signing for those who masterminded the execution of their brother, sister, mother, father, aunt, cousin, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 05:11:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:35:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 28, 2016, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 28, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
They don't know him, they have no personal relationship to him, quite honestly the way the previous episode went they really ought to be questioning his competency, and the basic idea of a independent northern kingdom has to be looking a lot less compelling.

Hell, if you buy into the idea of the White Walkers coming, and independent North is actually a pretty terrible idea.

It might look terrible if you are solely accounting on them needing aid from the other Kingdoms to keep the White Walkers at bay.  But that would be discounting the generations of pride, the religious differences, and the immense cultural gulf between the North and the other Kingdoms.  Basically, I think there are a lot of intangibles that go into the appeal of a King in the North rather than just being under the thumb of King's Landing.

And the fact that they'll soon hear of Queen Cersei the Incinerator, First of Her Name, means they aren't going back on that one any time soon.

True - one thing that has changed since they declared Rob is several years of war and total chaos in the south. Well, in the north as well of course.

This could certainly make a lot more sense if their meeting happened right after getting a raven detailing the Mad Queen's latest moves...

I really want to see how Jaime reacts. He has to be thinking "WTF, I killed a king for contemplating what my sister just did..."
The ruling council of King's Landing knew Myrcella had been killed by Dorne and the ruler of Dorne had been killed by these same people.  It's reasonable to assume the North is also aware of this.  They are also likely aware of tensions between the new religious leader who has the King's ear and the population that does not worship the Seven gods.

So, from the North's point of view, war is brewing again, and the situation is far from stable.  Better to keep the troops home.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on June 29, 2016, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2016, 04:58:33 PM
A women who falls pregnant while her husband is at war would look very suspicious ;)

They seemed to know how to do it without getting preggers. Or at least not as often as one might think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on June 29, 2016, 10:47:12 AM
Apparently what Lyanna whispered is "his name is aegon".
I see why they silenced that part out.  Show watchers would have been super confused.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on June 29, 2016, 10:57:55 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 26, 2016, 06:17:15 PM
Predictions for tonight:

[spoiler]R+L=J confirmed.
New Queen in the North (Sansa)
Sept of Baelor go 'splode.
Tommen almost certainly dies.
Little Birds stab Kevan and Pycelle, (possibly even Qyburn?) under the returned-guidance of Varys.
Daenarys finally heads to Westeros with her army.
Melisandre either dies at Jon's behest or performs a miracle to save herself.
Riverlands sees a Frey bloodbath (holding out for some Manderly or show-version of him).
Jaime escapes the bloodbath in the nick of time.
Cersei begins her reign as Mad Queen over the remnants of King's Landing thanks to the power vacuum.
Wall comes down?[/spoiler]

Dude, you are a fuckin genius. Unbelievable how close you were. Some things were telegraphed, of course, but i didn't expect the Frey thing, or Jaime to escape the little water dancer, or Cercei to actually crown herself.

Any ideas when the technological singularity will begin?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: LaCroix on June 29, 2016, 11:04:30 AM
Quote from: Siege on June 29, 2016, 10:57:55 AMSome things were telegraphed, of course, but i didn't expect the Frey thing, or Jaime to escape the little water dancer, or Cercei to actually crown herself.

there were lots of fan speculation throughout the season, and tons of leaks were released periodically throughout the season
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 29, 2016, 08:57:02 PM
Directors for next season announced.  Miguel Sapochnik gets a season off, while Mark Mylod inexplicably gets to helm at least one more episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 29, 2016, 09:59:29 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 28, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
It's not really clear if the various undead in the books and TV series are all the same.

There seem to be various classes:
Resurrected by Red Priests (Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart, Jon Snow)
Resurrected by a fallen Maester (Gregor Clegane)
Created as undead by the Children of the Forest (The Night King and his retinue)
Created as undead by the Night King (the zombies in Hardhome)
Some other status (Benjen Stark/Coldhands)

True, but it makes dramatic sense for Sandor Clegane to kill his brother with fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on June 30, 2016, 06:18:34 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 29, 2016, 08:57:02 PM
... Miguel Sapochnik gets a season off...


What?  He's the one who made the last 2 fantastic episodes - are they daft?


G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Malicious Intent on June 30, 2016, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 30, 2016, 06:18:34 AM
What?  He's the one who made the last 2 fantastic episodes - are they daft?


G.

IIRC he is working on some new science fiction series this year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 30, 2016, 09:45:41 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on June 30, 2016, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 30, 2016, 06:18:34 AM
What?  He's the one who made the last 2 fantastic episodes - are they daft?


G.

IIRC he is working on some new science fiction series this year.
I see BIOS and Altered Carbon in IMDB.  The latter seems interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 30, 2016, 10:20:00 PM
I wonder in the real Middle Ages, was "Blow up the Pope" really a viable option.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 30, 2016, 10:43:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2016, 10:20:00 PM
I wonder in the real Middle Ages, was "Blow up the Pope" really a viable option.
They had no wildfire cache under the Vatican.

They usually preferred getting the Pope on their side or naming their own Pope, or later becoming a sort of Pope.
Besides, the Pope was popular elsewhere too, not just in Rome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on June 30, 2016, 11:57:59 PM
If that scene is from GRRM, then it's undoubtedly inspired by the Gunpowder Plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 01, 2016, 12:08:06 AM
Remember, remember the 5th of November.

Outside of the middle ages, though, so not an option for Raz's question.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 01, 2016, 03:40:10 AM
The Europeans had gunpowder by the end of the 13th Century, which is still the Middle Ages.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 18, 2016, 05:10:53 PM
Looks like we'll have to wait a long longer for next season...and it's gonna be shorter.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/07/18/game-thrones-season-7
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2016, 06:05:08 PM
It's ok, these things are like babies, they come when they come.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on July 18, 2016, 07:14:52 PM
I'll go off on a limb here that the delay is due to GRRM promising to get TWOW in before the agreed date. I'll also predict that he won't meet this new deadline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 18, 2016, 07:39:14 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2016, 06:05:08 PM
It's ok, these things are like babies, they come when they come.

You would know :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 18, 2016, 07:14:52 PM
I'll go off on a limb here that the delay is due to GRRM promising to get TWOW in before the agreed date. I'll also predict that he won't meet this new deadline.
Winter is here.  They need to shoot in winter, so they can't start now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Hamilcar on July 18, 2016, 08:09:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 18, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 18, 2016, 07:14:52 PM
I'll go off on a limb here that the delay is due to GRRM promising to get TWOW in before the agreed date. I'll also predict that he won't meet this new deadline.
Winter is here.  They need to shoot in winter, so they can't start now.
They don't shoot in actual winter.  Shooting in real snow and ice is *very* challenging.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 18, 2016, 08:12:20 PM
Yeah, the Soviets found that out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 18, 2016, 08:53:23 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 18, 2016, 07:14:52 PM
I'll go off on a limb here that the delay is due to GRRM promising to get TWOW in before the agreed date. I'll also predict that he won't meet this new deadline.

I seriously doubt that. The first part anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2016, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 18, 2016, 08:09:56 PM
They don't shoot in actual winter.  Shooting in real snow and ice is *very* challenging.
"Now that winter has arrived on Game of Thrones, executive producers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss felt that the storylines of the next season would be better served by starting production a little later than usual, when the weather is changing," Carter Bloys, president of HBO programming, said in a statement. "Instead of the show's traditional spring debut, we're moving the debut to summer to accommodate the shooting schedule."`

Some of the scenes beyond the Wall were shot outside, IIRC, in late Fall/Winter.

I know it is very expensive, and that's likely why this will be a 7 episode season instead of 10, for the same costs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 19, 2016, 01:02:41 PM
The explanation I read was that the delay and fewer episodes was because of the skyrocketing time needed for post-production of these much-more-CGI episodes in the last two seasons.  HBO would have paid the additional costs, but there was no way to get around the production time issue.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on July 19, 2016, 02:01:42 PM
Maybe each episode will have a longer runtime.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 19, 2016, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 19, 2016, 02:01:42 PM
Maybe each episode will have a longer runtime.  :)

Would be nice if they said "Go ahead with ten episodes, but 'fill' that 30% increase with character development and other non-CGI needed story telling!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 19, 2016, 02:30:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2016, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 19, 2016, 02:01:42 PM
Maybe each episode will have a longer runtime.  :)

Would be nice if they said "Go ahead with ten episodes, but 'fill' that 30% increase with character development and other non-CGI needed story telling!"

or more nudity, which costs nothing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 19, 2016, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2016, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on July 19, 2016, 02:01:42 PM
Maybe each episode will have a longer runtime.  :)

Would be nice if they said "Go ahead with ten episodes, but 'fill' that 30% increase with character development and other non-CGI needed story telling!"
are actors paid per episode or season on GoT?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 20, 2016, 07:19:04 AM
At least they get paid.
The way we are going, the west will become a socialist cesspool in a couple decades.

"In soviet russia, actors act you".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 20, 2016, 07:30:57 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2016, 07:19:04 AM
At least they get paid.
The way we are going, the west will become a socialist cesspool in a couple decades.

"In soviet russia, actors act you".

We have been a socialist cesspool for a hundred years or so. I am not really clear on how we could become more of a socialist cesspool. We simply lack the money...ironically.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 20, 2016, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2016, 07:19:04 AM
At least they get paid.
The way we are going, the west will become a socialist cesspool in a couple decades.

Of course they get paid.  Who does not get paid, even in socialist countries?

The US was built on socialism, the government spending insane amount of money to build railroads, chase the French, the Indians and the Mexicans with the army, use the army to control criminal bands, give lands to railroad companies who sold them to settlers, all I see is government everywhere.  Kinda like Israel, actually, another socialist cesspool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Siege on July 20, 2016, 08:31:05 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 20, 2016, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2016, 07:19:04 AM
At least they get paid.
The way we are going, the west will become a socialist cesspool in a couple decades.

Of course they get paid.  Who does not get paid, even in socialist countries?

The US was built on socialism, the government spending insane amount of money to build railroads, chase the French, the Indians and the Mexicans with the army, use the army to control criminal bands, give lands to railroad companies who sold them to settlers, all I see is government everywhere.  Kinda like Israel, actually, another socialist cesspool.

Oh israel has always been a socialist cesspool, less so now than it used to be.
Very easy to exploit the hard work and creativity of the jewish people in the name of the collective, er i mean the government. We are all easily scared.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on October 25, 2016, 01:21:15 PM
Jon and Daenerys meet (http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/24/game-of-thrones-saison-7-une-scene-tres-attendue-a-fuite-spoilers_n_12622926.html)
Check the low quality vid.  Don't know if he calls here 'auntie' though...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on March 30, 2017, 01:05:47 PM
Still too far away

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=JxWfvtnHtS0&ebc=ANyPxKr8WiSOZo59gtBCVnlWIyN3HguI7Hf6XlS4OCWeedy8wd1SaDgLv_4xvupFHmMdsNLL3X0obEKqci6ca0HrbuGaCjWJFw
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
I am rather pessimistic about the coming season.  I only hope that they don't continue the Hollywoodization of the story and actually know what they're doing with the remaining two seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on March 30, 2017, 03:46:52 PM
I actually thought the last season was one of the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 30, 2017, 03:49:22 PM
With Habs.

There is quite a lot of reverting to some very standard Hollywood writing starting to creep in...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on March 30, 2017, 03:53:26 PM
Do you have any examples? the only thing I can think of is the buddy cop scenes in Dorne, but that was season 5 IIRC. However, it's been a year so I might have pushed them from my mind.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 03:53:48 PM
I will burn D&D's houses down if the last shot is Daenarys and Jon riding Drogon into the sunset.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 03:56:03 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 30, 2017, 03:53:26 PM
Do you have any examples? the only thing I can think of is the buddy cop scenes in Dorne, but that was season 5 IIRC. However, it's been a year so I might have pushed them from my mind.

The entirety of the Battle of the Bastards episode?  Rohirrim--er, sorry, Knights of the Vale riding to the rescue?  Arya getting gut-stabbed for prancing around in open view like an idiot, then magic-healed? The stupid chase sequence with Arya and the Faceless Terminatrice? Arya magically showing up out of nowhere to kill Walder Frey and sons with zero lead-up?

Those are just the examples that come to mind instantly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2017, 03:57:00 PM
Super nerdy girl working at the gas station had a GoT ring tone.  We chatted for a bit.  Told her the show is better than the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 30, 2017, 04:49:49 PM
More generally, they seem to be doing the Drama Writing For Television 101 thing that goes like this:

1. Build tension. Tension important, must build it!
2. Build more tension! Oh lovely tension! However will this be resolved!
3. ZOMG SO MUCH TENSION! WELL DONE! Don't worry if the building made no sense, or required characters to act like morons! (Jon charging at Frey)
4. Resolve Tension! Oh wait...shit. We didn't really think about how to resolve this when we were building it up....crap. Uhhh.....someone throw together some deus ex bullshit! Arya gets magic healing! The Knights ride to the rescue at the last minute!

Rinse.
Repeat.

Story and plot is of secondary concern to the formula.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on March 30, 2017, 04:58:59 PM
I liked the battle of the bastards. The aryns and their retinue are mounted knights, so the Calvary charge didn't bother me, and little finger waiting until the last second so that the northern armies are ruined matches his personally. I'll give you terminator assisting girl and unlikely survival of Arya, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 09:54:12 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 30, 2017, 04:58:59 PM
I liked the battle of the bastards.

I liked it as well, from a cinematic, Hollywood standpoint.  It was a very well-done battle scene, very well-directed/shot/constructed, what have you.  But it's not why I watch Game of Thrones.  The same excitement could have been had without a deus ex machina from the Valehirrim riding to Jon's rescue because...what?  Jon is dumb now?  Despite seasons of us being shown that he is not actually that dumb?

QuoteThe aryns and their retinue are mounted knights

The complaint is not that the knights did what knights do.  It was how they were required to save the day because one of the main characters acted in a way that was necessary for zomg drama instead of something that's consistent with their arc.

Quotethe Calvary charge didn't bother me

Quite the miracle there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 30, 2017, 10:12:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 09:54:12 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 30, 2017, 04:58:59 PM
I liked the battle of the bastards.

I liked it as well, from a cinematic, Hollywood standpoint.  It was a very well-done battle scene, very well-directed/shot/constructed, what have you.  But it's not why I watch Game of Thrones.  The same excitement could have been had without a deus ex machina from the Valehirrim riding to Jon's rescue because...what?  Jon is dumb now?  Despite seasons of us being shown that he is not actually that dumb?

I don't think Jon was so much dumb as he was so much human.  That was his brother he was trying to rescue.  It'd be hard for anyone to just stand there and watch their brother die.


Quote

QuoteThe aryns and their retinue are mounted knights

The complaint is not that the knights did what knights do.  It was how they were required to save the day because one of the main characters acted in a way that was necessary for zomg drama instead of something that's consistent with their arc.

Quotethe Calvary charge didn't bother me

Quite the miracle there.

If you didn't think the Vale cavalry was going to show up, you were missing some pretty pointed foreshadowing.   That they waited until the Northern Army was getting slaughtered should surprise no one; Littlefinger wanted to be the only power left in the North, backing Sansa as the Lady of the North.  That wasn't deus ex machina at all.

Arya's miracle heal was.  Frankly, I found that whole story arc to be badly plotted and kinda pointless.  The story doesn't need Ninja Arya.  But that's a fault inherited from the books.  The show could certainly have handled her departure in a less melodramatic way.

Once they did that, though, her showing up to kill Walder is exactly what I expected.  That had so much foreshadowing it wasn't even foreshadowing any more.  She had a list, remember?  Walder Frey was near the top.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on March 31, 2017, 01:15:16 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2017, 03:57:00 PM
Super nerdy girl working at the gas station had a GoT ring tone.  We chatted for a bit.  Told her the show is better than the books.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 24, 2017, 02:16:31 PM
Trailer is out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giYeaKsXnsI

Pants, dairy factory, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 24, 2017, 04:15:28 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 24, 2017, 02:16:31 PM
Trailer is out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giYeaKsXnsI

Pants, dairy factory, etc.


Yes
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 24, 2017, 10:43:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 03:56:03 PM
Arya magically showing up out of nowhere to kill Walder Frey and sons with zero lead-up?
it's not magic, it's called the passing of time.  Maybe 2-3 months had passed since the chase.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 25, 2017, 01:05:25 AM
Would be curious to see a edited version in the future which specifically notes the date of events. It being clear that some characters stories take place in the course of a few hours whilst others take weeks.

Ruins the drama and flow of course. But purely as a curiosity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 21, 2017, 07:48:26 PM
Game of Thrones 1990s-style
https://youtu.be/2fPgIIB67bw (https://youtu.be/2fPgIIB67bw)

New trailer:
https://youtu.be/1Mlhnt0jMlg (https://youtu.be/1Mlhnt0jMlg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on June 21, 2017, 09:43:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2017, 10:43:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 03:56:03 PM
Arya magically showing up out of nowhere to kill Walder Frey and sons with zero lead-up?
it's not magic, it's called the passing of time.  Maybe 2-3 months had passed since the chase.

It's not the passage of time I was quibbling with, but the knocking off of the Freys by Arya by just...hand-waving it and assuming Arya's that good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2017, 11:12:36 PM
That doesn't bother me. They've been setting up Arya as "that good" for a long time. Granted, they kind of skipped over the part where they actually show her getting that good, but I think it is rather strongly implied.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on June 22, 2017, 02:22:52 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 30, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
I am rather pessimistic about the coming season.  I only hope that they don't continue the Hollywoodization of the story and actually know what they're doing with the remaining two seasons.

Yeah, they definitely should go full on Broadway for the ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 22, 2017, 08:57:49 AM
I thought this season will be the last one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on June 22, 2017, 09:28:56 AM
One more after that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 04:14:49 AM
Meh
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on June 30, 2017, 07:25:46 AM
It is one more long season of 13 (rather then 10) episodes broken into two pieces, or two short seasons (one 7 episodes, the other 6).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 08:22:03 AM
I thought I'd appreciate and enjoy the series more when it went past the books, but it's been the opposite.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on June 30, 2017, 08:46:48 AM
Why?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 08:49:13 AM
I don't know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on June 30, 2017, 05:28:09 PM
I've been very pleased with how the show has handled translating the books, and I think what you are seeing in the show is what Martin planned for his books, back when he wrote books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 16, 2017, 11:57:33 PM
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 17, 2017, 07:29:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 30, 2017, 05:28:09 PM
I've been very pleased with how the show has handled translating the books, and I think what you are seeing in the show is what Martin planned for his books, back when he wrote books.

The show is it. I think we will be lucky if we get one more book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 17, 2017, 07:35:39 AM
I thought the Arya/Frey scene was a little too obvious. Just a bit of "Lets wrap this storyline up in a pretty bow and call it a day". No real shock or twist or anything. You knew the instant the scene opened how it was going to end.

I think we will see more of this though  - plenty of loose ends that need wrapping up, and not all of it is really important enough to put much work into...

I did like the scene with Arya running into the boy Lannister soldiers. Nice to see some Lannister troops who are just normal people, and pretty much kids too boot, which shows that the war is dragging on and on.

Liked the interaction between Jon and Sansa. Nicely nuanced - they are not always going to agree, but setting them up as antagonistic to one another right off doesn't make much sense. However, they do have very different priorities.

Daeny - meh. She landed. Obvious staged drama. Formulaic.

Jaime/Cersei - not sure where this is going, or where it even *can* go. Their kids are dead, I don't even see why Jaime would even stick around. Is the head of the QueenRegent Guard now?

Samwell - this is the one storyline that I am actually curious about as far as where it is actually going to go....and his girlfriend certainly cleaned up nicely.

Overall, a solid start to the new half season. Nothing spectacular though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 17, 2017, 09:57:16 AM
The scenes with the Hound/Beric/Thoros and the Arya/Lannister squad were my favorite.

I think that's one of the things I've missed the most about the series that is otherwise shown in the books--the peeks at what life is like for the average schmuck mixed up in this. Sure, you have assholes like the Brave Companions and plenty of bad soldiers, but scenes between, say, Jaime and his men at the Siege of Riverrun from the books are sorely missed. I'm glad to see that they're not forgetting to inject that here and there even with the leadup to the end.

Having said that, I'm sure we'll get ten scenes of Gray Worm/Missandei romance garbage soon enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 11:59:12 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 17, 2017, 07:35:39 AM
I thought the Arya/Frey scene was a little too obvious. Just a bit of "Lets wrap this storyline up in a pretty bow and call it a day". No real shock or twist or anything. You knew the instant the scene opened how it was going to end.
it was fun to see, just like many other scenes.  Had we done without it, there would have been complaints when someone mentionned the Freys weren't there anymore, so it has to be done on screen.  Same as Dany's landing.

I think they did away with the pointless stuff early on in this season, so it's cleared for the rest of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:13:07 PM
I'm not sure I quite understand how Arya does what she does. I though at first she stole some faces from the place she was at; but I guess not. So now she carries around a universal face mask that can become who she wants?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:13:07 PM
I'm not sure I quite understand how Arya does what she does. I though at first she stole some faces from the place she was at; but I guess not. So now she carries around a universal face mask that can become who she wants?
Minor spoiler, from last year's finale:
[spoiler]
she took Walder Frey's face after killing him last season, presumably.
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 17, 2017, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:13:07 PM
I'm not sure I quite understand how Arya does what she does. I though at first she stole some faces from the place she was at; but I guess not. So now she carries around a universal face mask that can become who she wants?

I think you have to chalk it up to your choice of magic, or divine intervention, just like for all the other Faceless Men.  I think that the fact that Arya is violating all of the tenets of the religion of the Many-faced God argues more for magic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 17, 2017, 12:36:40 PM
The face that a Faceless Man takes does not have to be from a dead person.  Jaqen H'ghar took on Arya's face while she was alive.

Interesting tidbit:  when Arya was wandering around Bravos in the hours leading up to the stabbing, she was right-handed.  "Real" Arya is left-handed.  When they filmed that scene (and the stabbing), that was probably supposed to be Jaqen testing the waif, not Arya at all, but then they changed it in post-production.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:13:07 PM
I'm not sure I quite understand how Arya does what she does. I though at first she stole some faces from the place she was at; but I guess not. So now she carries around a universal face mask that can become who she wants?
Minor spoiler, from last year's finale:
[spoiler]
she took Walder Frey's face after killing him last season, presumably.
[/spoiler]

Can she do that? :huh: I guess
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 17, 2017, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:13:07 PM
I'm not sure I quite understand how Arya does what she does. I though at first she stole some faces from the place she was at; but I guess not. So now she carries around a universal face mask that can become who she wants?
Minor spoiler, from last year's finale:
[spoiler]
she took Walder Frey's face after killing him last season, presumably.
[/spoiler]

Can she do that? :huh: I guess

They're unclear on the face stealing. Aria has something physical on her face (presumably someone else face), but when we got three deaths/wishes way back that guy (jaquin?) had a magic face change. Could be she hasn't been trained in the magic face changing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on July 17, 2017, 01:23:43 PM
Solid set up of the new season setting the figures onto the board.

[spoiler]The person that grabbed for Sam in the Citadel prison (?) looked a bit like Jorah Mormont. Not sure if we ever saw what happened to him (Danearys sent him away, no?). Or it could have been one of the White Walker zombies...

Jaime asks Cersei a good question - who are their allies? With the massive fleet that Danearys has, she should be able to easily crush Cersei's troops. The Ironborn can't be that numerous or else it doesn't make too much sense.

Euron somehow was strange too. What does he see in Cersei?[/spoiler]

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 17, 2017, 01:32:29 PM
This is a spolier thread, I believe. The tags are not necessary. The presumption is that anyone reading is caught up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 17, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
Can she do that? :huh: I guess
the others who serve the faceless God can do it.  Presumably, she can too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
allright, if someone is mad, I'll refer them to Berkut :P

Quote from: Zanza on July 17, 2017, 01:23:43 PM
The person that grabbed for Sam in the Citadel prison (?) looked a bit like Jorah Mormont. Not sure if we ever saw what happened to him (Danearys sent him away, no?). Or it could have been one of the White Walker zombies...
Yes, that was him.  White Walker zombies don't talk.

Quote
The Ironborn can't be that numerous or else it doesn't make too much sense.
well, originally, that fleet was the Ironborn.  And Euron did ask for 1000 ships.

Quote
What does he see in Cersei?
The romantic version?  The most beautiful queen of all
The pragmatic verion? Power.  Daenerys will not marry him, now that his nephew and niece have given her the fleet she needed.  She doesn't need Ironborn troops, she has the Southerners and the Tyrells for sure, maybe a few other will also join, on top of her Unsullied.

He can not conquer Westeros, unlike his brother, he knows his limits.  He does not have the manpower to hold on every castle in Westeros alone.

If he wants to be a King, he if wants to deliver on his promises to the Iron Born, he needs allies.  The North will not join him, the South will not join him, so he aims for the middle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 17, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 02:07:24 PM

Yes, that was him.  White Walker zombies don't talk.

And his voice was quite recognizable.

Quotewell, originally, that fleet was the Ironborn.  And Euron did ask for 1000 ships.

Yeah, that's one of those WTF bits; where are the ironborn going to find enough seasoned timber for 1,000 ships?  Even if they used unseasoned timber (just needing the ships for a year) there's no way they could have summoned the man-hours needed to build one thousand ships.

QuoteThe romantic version?  The most beautiful queen of all
The pragmatic verion? Power.  Daenerys will not marry him, now that his nephew and niece have given her the fleet she needed.  She doesn't need Ironborn troops, she has the Southerners and the Tyrells for sure, maybe a few other will also join, on top of her Unsullied.

He can not conquer Westeros, unlike his brother, he knows his limits.  He does not have the manpower to hold on every castle in Westeros alone.

If he wants to be a King, he if wants to deliver on his promises to the Iron Born, he needs allies.  The North will not join him, the South will not join him, so he aims for the middle.

Agreed.  He's thinking to make himself king by marrying a queen (and then probably offing her!).  He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the writers sure are having fun with his dialog.

Jamie is about to attack and conquer Highgarden, based on the promo clips.  Then it looks like Dani and the Dothraki are then going to crush his army and, probably, capture him.

I see Jamie as the future leader of the armies of Westeros against the undead.  They've sort of set it up that Jon isn't great shakes as a military commander.  Jamie might end up on the throne at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 17, 2017, 03:57:11 PM
Re: The feasibility of a 1000 ship Greyjoy fleet.

The Iron Islands are a ludicrous place that shouldn't be able to sustain a sizeable population, let alone a mighty reaving fleet. The less said about them, the better.

Pet peeve of mine, sorry to interrupt.

Decent episode. Felt a bit rushed to get people together but they don't really have the time to dither around, so off they go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
Yeah, that's one of those WTF bits; where are the ironborn going to find enough seasoned timber for 1,000 ships?  Even if they used unseasoned timber (just needing the ships for a year) there's no way they could have summoned the man-hours needed to build one thousand ships.
Well, we don't know he has 1000 ships.  Did you count them all? :P
Presumably, he has a few hundred ships, wich could be realistic for... what, 6-8 months time maybe since they stole his ships?  It's not like he losts all his ships either.  they might have stolen a few too. They might have been in the process of building/rebuilding a fleet too, we don't really know.

But yeah, it's a little weird.  That's why the predictable scenes with Arya and Daenerys were necessary, from a viewer's point of view.

Quote
Jamie is about to attack and conquer Highgarden, based on the promo clips.  Then it looks like Dani and the Dothraki are then going to crush his army and, probably, capture him.
Haven't seen the promo :)  I look forward to this :)

Quote
I see Jamie as the future leader of the armies of Westeros against the undead.  They've sort of set it up that Jon isn't great shakes as a military commander.  Jamie might end up on the throne at the end.
Could be cool, but I have doubts this is what is in stores for them.  I do think, like many, that Jaimie will end up killing his sister before she burns King's Landing, but I think he will likely commit suicide afterward.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 17, 2017, 03:57:11 PM
Re: The feasibility of a 1000 ship Greyjoy fleet.

The Iron Islands are a ludicrous place that shouldn't be able to sustain a sizeable population, let alone a mighty reaving fleet. The less said about them, the better.

Pet peeve of mine, sorry to interrupt.

Decent episode. Felt a bit rushed to get people together but they don't really have the time to dither around, so off they go.
I really don't think "1000 ships" should be taken too literally.  And I don't know enough about the Iron Island's geography, I can't remember much, so it's likely just a few big warships with a lot of converted merchant ships.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on July 17, 2017, 04:57:12 PM
The prisoner in the Citadel it's clearly Jorah Mormont.

I was also a bit miffed about Arya's poisoning scene. It felt like shock value for the sake of shock value, since the more you think about how she was able to carry it out the less sense it makes.

The rest was fine, just setting everything up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 17, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
Arya killing them off was to replace lady stoneheart doing it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 06:30:43 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 17, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
Arya killing them off was to replace lady stoneheart doing it.
it would have been bloodier had it been Lady Stoneheart.  I don't think she would have settled for poison.  Would have costed a fortune in special effects :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 17, 2017, 07:23:23 PM
She's not a evil half zombie either :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 17, 2017, 09:14:46 PM
I had forgotten that Frey died last season. I was surprised that it was Arya, I cheered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 17, 2017, 10:27:43 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 17, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
Arya killing them off was to replace lady stoneheart doing it.

Yeah. The setup in the books seems to be leading that way and is much more believable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 17, 2017, 10:31:05 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 17, 2017, 09:14:46 PM
I had forgotten that Frey died last season. I was surprised that it was Arya, I cheered.
there was a 6 season recap just before the episode began ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 18, 2017, 01:51:25 AM
Arya killing the freys was awesome.

Ed sheeran and friends was odd.

Quote from: celedhring on July 17, 2017, 04:57:12 PM
The prisoner in the Citadel it's clearly Jorah Mormont.

up.

True. Didn't consider that. Disappointing. I thought some mystic guy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on July 18, 2017, 04:54:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

Don't know him either, but he's selling shitloads of albums: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Sheeran_discography
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :P

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :p

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.

Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on July 18, 2017, 05:48:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :p

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.

Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!

Funny ending to this video, got to watch the whole thing for full effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGwWNGJdvx8
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 06:03:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :p

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.

Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!

Surely you must have listened to a few of his songs without realizing who he was. I mean, "Shape of You" has been everywhere this year, for instance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 06:12:58 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 06:03:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :p

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.

Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!

Surely you must have listened to a few of his songs without realizing who he was. I mean, "Shape of You" has been everywhere this year, for instance.

I don't think I have heard it but then again I immediately tune the radio away when something like that comes up. How can people even figure out when its a different singer singing? They all have their voices auto-tuned to sound the same.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on July 18, 2017, 06:15:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM


Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!


You've heard 'I see fire', from 'The Desolation of Smaug'.


Anyway, good episode.  Nice touch with the Lannister soldiers; as hard as it is to believe there are decent people on every side.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 18, 2017, 06:44:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :p

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.

Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!

Very surprising. His headlining of Glastonbury a few weeks back was big news.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 07:14:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 06:12:58 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 06:03:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

How's that cave of yours? Hope it's comfy. :p

I mean, I don't listen to his music but I know that the guy is a massively popular musician.

Wow. I honestly never heard of him before yesterday. I am growing old!

Surely you must have listened to a few of his songs without realizing who he was. I mean, "Shape of You" has been everywhere this year, for instance.

I don't think I have heard it but then again I immediately tune the radio away when something like that comes up. How can people even figure out when its a different singer singing? They all have their voices auto-tuned to sound the same.

Ok, you suffer from premature grumpy old man syndrome, then.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 07:15:28 AM
Fake elitism. "I'm too good for that music".

I know who Ed Sheeran is, Shape of You is pretty good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 08:29:30 AM
Its not elitism. Autotune is objectivily horrible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 18, 2017, 08:32:01 AM
I only heard of him when he covered a Pink Floyd tune, I think at the London Olympics
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 08:39:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 08:29:30 AM
Its not elitism. Autotune is objectivily horrible.

The sky is not blue. The blue sky is horrible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 08:52:11 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 08:39:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 08:29:30 AM
Its not elitism. Autotune is objectivily horrible.

The sky is not blue. The blue sky is horrible.

You know why they make even good singers use autotune right? So it is easier to sell bad, propper-up crap to you because you'll consider it normal and "hip" to  listen to some computer-enhanced singing voice.

Hey, it's ok with me, it is down to personal preferences to choose between something shit and something good, but then allow me to ignore the shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 18, 2017, 09:30:44 AM
I don't know this singer. This singer is horrible and uses autotune. Pick one already :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 18, 2017, 09:32:51 AM
I've heard this mook's name but that's it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on July 18, 2017, 09:54:49 AM
He's absolutely massive in the UK, certainly the biggest selling star of the last couple of years.

He seems a very likeable bloke but I'm not a fan of his music. I don't hate it, just seems one-dimensional to me.

That scene was pretty awful all round. He can't act and Masie Williams seemed a bit overcome by fandom herself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on July 18, 2017, 09:57:15 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 18, 2017, 09:30:44 AM
I don't know this singer. This singer is horrible and uses autotune. Pick one already :P

Not only that, but he doesn't use autotune.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 09:58:49 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 09:54:49 AMThat scene was pretty awful all round. He can't act and Masie Williams seemed a bit overcome by fandom herself.

Apparently they brought him in as a joke because Arya's actress is a massive fan of him.

One of the other kid soldiers is the guy from the This is England films.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on July 18, 2017, 10:07:47 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 09:58:49 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 09:54:49 AMThat scene was pretty awful all round. He can't act and Masie Williams seemed a bit overcome by fandom herself.

Apparently they brought him in as a joke because Arya's actress is a massive fan of him.

One of the other kid soldiers is the guy from the This is England films.

Yeah. Shane Meadows didn't improve his acting chops any.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 18, 2017, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.

Dude you are so getting kicked out of the country now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 10:10:31 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 18, 2017, 09:30:44 AM
I don't know this singer. This singer is horrible and uses autotune. Pick one already :P

I checked the song referenced here, on Youtube. Awful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 11:02:04 AM
Tamas' lack of musical acumen aside. Do you guys think Jon finds out that Bran is alive before leaving for Dragonstone?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 11:05:55 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 11:02:04 AM
Tamas' lack of musical acumen aside. Do you guys think Jon finds out that Bran is alive before leaving for Dragonstone?

It would be an interesting angle to suddenly find out he isn't king of the north, but I think its too complex for 6 episodes, so no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 11:02:04 AM
Tamas' lack of musical acumen aside. Do you guys think Jon finds out that Bran is alive before leaving for Dragonstone?

The timing of each character's plotline is all out of whack, so who knows. One would think that the Night's watch would send a raven to Winterfell with the news, but they have no maester...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 11:37:05 AM
Yeah timing and distances have gone out of the window a long time ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on July 18, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Has Jon been made King of the North by inheritance or was it more elective? I can't remember.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Has Jon been made King of the North by inheritance or was it more elective? I can't remember.

A little bit of both? He's the last, known, male to have a connection to Ned Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 11:58:02 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Has Jon been made King of the North by inheritance or was it more elective? I can't remember.

It was basically the other northern nobles the ones that made him king, so I'd say the elective factor has more weight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2017, 11:58:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, other than British TV thinks he is a somebody.
He wrote the title song for the Bastard Executionner. Greatest show no one watched :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2017, 12:00:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 08:52:11 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 08:39:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2017, 08:29:30 AM
Its not elitism. Autotune is objectivily horrible.

The sky is not blue. The blue sky is horrible.

You know why they make even good singers use autotune right? So it is easier to sell bad, propper-up crap to you because you'll consider it normal and "hip" to  listen to some computer-enhanced singing voice.
totally agree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 11:58:02 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Has Jon been made King of the North by inheritance or was it more elective? I can't remember.

It was basically the other northern nobles the ones that made him king, so I'd say the elective factor has more weight.

Yeah, I don't think Bran shownig up (a still crippled, somehow mystical Old Gods prophet thingy Bran at that) changes anything at all in regards to Jon being King. He was made King by proclamation, not by inheritance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:32 PM
You know who it might piss off though?

Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 18, 2017, 12:49:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:32 PM
You know who it might piss off though?

Sansa.

but Sansa likes Jon.

Although Sansa can put on Ned Stark's face and say "I'm Ba-ack"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 18, 2017, 12:52:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 11:58:02 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Has Jon been made King of the North by inheritance or was it more elective? I can't remember.

It was basically the other northern nobles the ones that made him king, so I'd say the elective factor has more weight.

Yeah, I don't think Bran shownig up (a still crippled, somehow mystical Old Gods prophet thingy Bran at that) changes anything at all in regards to Jon being King. He was made King by proclamation, not by inheritance.

Proclamation through (unintentional) pretense. Enough of the north might have trouble with a targarian lord, especially with another one attacking. But he'll stay king. he has to bone his aunt and use dragons to kill the walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 18, 2017, 12:54:02 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 18, 2017, 12:49:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:32 PM
You know who it might piss off though?

Sansa.

but Sansa likes Jon.

Although Sansa can put on Ned Stark's face and say "I'm Ba-ack"

Sansa is annoying and contrarian, and she keeps messing with Jon (not telling him about the knights of the vale, arguing in public). Plus It looks like she's gotten some of Ramsey's cold streak.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:59:08 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 18, 2017, 12:52:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 18, 2017, 11:58:02 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 18, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Has Jon been made King of the North by inheritance or was it more elective? I can't remember.

It was basically the other northern nobles the ones that made him king, so I'd say the elective factor has more weight.

Yeah, I don't think Bran shownig up (a still crippled, somehow mystical Old Gods prophet thingy Bran at that) changes anything at all in regards to Jon being King. He was made King by proclamation, not by inheritance.

Proclamation through (unintentional) pretense. Enough of the north might have trouble with a targarian lord, especially with another one attacking. But he'll stay king. he has to bone his aunt and use dragons to kill the walkers.

Nah, I don't think the North would have any problem at all with the child of Rhaegar and Lyana. She was loved, and he was respected, and its not like the North gives two shits about the Baratheons and sure as hell hates the Lannisters. If there is going to be a united Westeros, who else could possibly rule it than someone who combines Stark and Targaryen blood?

It's almost a little too obvious, really. Jon is King with Daeny his Queen. Tyrion is Hand, and look, he happens to ALREADY be married to Sansa. Littlefinger gets killed by Arya maybe?

Jaime is head of the Lannisters and Casterly Rock after he kills his sister. Or he dies fighting the Walker, more likely.

Leaves Bran as the reigning Stark, Sansa and Tyrion in charge of the Lannisters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:59:43 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 18, 2017, 12:49:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:46:32 PM
You know who it might piss off though?

Sansa.

but Sansa likes Jon.

Although Sansa can put on Ned Stark's face and say "I'm Ba-ack"

Sansa and Arya are two totally different characters.

They don't even look similar.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on July 18, 2017, 01:14:31 PM
Some people noticed that Sansa now has Cersei's hairdo from earlier seasons and she says she learned a lot from Cersei to Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 01:14:38 PM
Yeah, Sophie Turner is like 7 feet tall now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on July 18, 2017, 02:08:03 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2017, 01:14:38 PM
Yeah, Sophie Turner is like 7 feet tall now.

I don't know what that barbaric non SI unit is, but google says 1.75 m which isn't that tall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 18, 2017, 02:16:32 PM
Arya is going to kill Cersei.  Remember when Arya met Melisandra (sp?) and Mel had this dramatic speech about looking in Arya's eyes and seeing the eyes of dead people looking back?  She specifically noted that she could see one pair that was brown (Trant had brown eyes), one that was blue (Walder Frey was blue-eyed) and one that was green.  Cersei has green eyes.  The Mountain (the other one left on the list) has red zombie eyes.

Do we think the next time we she Arya she's going to be riding away from the soldiers' camp leaving a bunch of corpses?  I can't imagine why the showrunners went to all that trouble to make us like the soldiers unless they were going to kill them off.

Also, what death will Cersei come up with for Ellaria?  It's going to have to outdo the death she meted out to the "shame" nun, I think. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 18, 2017, 02:37:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 18, 2017, 02:16:32 PM
Arya is going to kill Cersei.  Remember when Arya met Melisandra (sp?) and Mel had this dramatic speech about looking in Arya's eyes and seeing the eyes of dead people looking back?  She specifically noted that she could see one pair that was brown (Trant had brown eyes), one that was blue (Walder Frey was blue-eyed) and one that was green.  Cersei has green eyes.  The Mountain (the other one left on the list) has red zombie eyes.
I'm waiting for the Arya and The Hound Reunion Tour to hit King's Landing.  They both have some unfinished off people there.  This is going to be difficult if they have The Hound continue to The Wall though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 18, 2017, 02:45:49 PM
I see it going in a different direction.

With Westeros bereft of autotune technology or indeed any digital music processing techniques, Arya will leverage her ability to change and modulate her voice at will to become the leading pop star of the seven kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 18, 2017, 03:34:16 PM
I think that Jamie will kill Cersei. It fits the prophecy of the frog lady and goes full circle of Jamie killing already killing one Mad king to save the city.

The Lannister army, besides providing Tamas a chance to learn about a popular singer, was there to show that Arya isn't a full-blown evil killing indiscriminately. so they live. I think anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 18, 2017, 03:49:08 PM
I think Arya will be wearing Jamie's seeming when she kills Cersei.

I think that the Hound gets back to King's Landing with a captive wight (I think that's why he and the BwB and Jon are north of the Wall in the second trailer:  to get proof that the Night King and the wights exist.  Without said evidence, Westeros won't unite).  Cleganebowl might happen at that point.  After all, isn't Sandor Clegane a wight himself? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 04:20:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 18, 2017, 03:34:16 PM

The Lannister army, besides providing Tamas a chance to learn about a popular singer, was there to show that Arya isn't a full-blown evil killing indiscriminately. so they live. I think anyway.

Almost the other side of that coin - they are there to *remind* Arya that she is still a human being, and not some monster. She did, after all, just finish killing an entire room full of people.

Also, I think we are going to be seeing the return of Nymeria now that Arya is back in the Riverlands...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 18, 2017, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 04:20:57 PM
Almost the other side of that coin - they are there to *remind* Arya that she is still a human being, and not some monster. She did, after all, just finish killing an entire room full of people.

Also, I think we are going to be seeing the return of Nymeria now that Arya is back in the Riverlands...

Good point.  In fact, Nymeria may come along to save Ara from the "nice" soldiers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 18, 2017, 04:35:49 PM
 Nymeria was in the previews for next week so she'll be making an appearance. wonder if she'll have her wolf army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 18, 2017, 04:58:59 PM
Quote from: celedhring on July 17, 2017, 04:57:12 PM
The prisoner in the Citadel it's clearly Jorah Mormont.

I was also a bit miffed about Arya's poisoning scene. It felt like shock value for the sake of shock value, since the more you think about how she was able to carry it out the less sense it makes.

The rest was fine, just setting everything up.


When I watched it my Kindle a little note showed up saying that it was in fact, Jorah Mormont.

The deaths of the Freys might have worked better at the end of last season when you didn't know Walder was already dead
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 18, 2017, 06:59:55 PM
When did Jon get the manbun?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on July 18, 2017, 09:30:33 PM
I think Arya forget to let Edmure out of his cell after she killed all the Freys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2017, 10:24:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2017, 12:59:08 PM
Jaime is head of the Lannisters and Casterly Rock after he kills his sister. Or he dies fighting the Walker, more likely.
he could be defeated in battle, retreat to the castle, kill Cersei, be conscripted to the Night's Watch and die a heroic death, redeeming his past actions.

It's a little too scripted for my tastes, but I'm pretty sure he's the one to kill Cersei, given the prophecy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 18, 2017, 10:30:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2017, 09:30:33 PM
I think Arya forget to let Edmure out of his cell after she killed all the Freys.
she might not have known about him, or did not care anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 19, 2017, 03:39:56 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2017, 09:30:33 PM
I think Arya forget to let Edmure out of his cell after she killed all the Freys.

Wasn't he taken by the Lannisters to Casterly Rock at some point?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 19, 2017, 04:37:01 AM
At first I thought Ed Sheeran and friends were going to be killed by Arya. Possibly some cliched circumstance where they pretend to be nice then try to attack her.
After their conversation though I suspect everything is face value there. It's a little reminder to us all that though yes, the Lannisters are the villains, they've normal decent people in their ranks.
I think this serves as less of a lesson to Arya and more of a foreshadowing for the viewer of evil Dany when she starts burning cities.


QuoteWhen I watched it my Kindle a little note showed up saying that it was in fact, Jorah Mormont.

The deaths of the Freys might have worked better at the end of last season when you didn't know Walder was already dead
I thought it worked nicely. Left us a little unsure at first whether it was a flashback then gradually step by step increased how obvious it was that it was Aria posing.



I wonder how long Arya was posing as Walder.
That feast must have taken some organising.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on July 19, 2017, 08:52:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 19, 2017, 03:39:56 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2017, 09:30:33 PM
I think Arya forget to let Edmure out of his cell after she killed all the Freys.

Wasn't he taken by the Lannisters to Casterly Rock at some point?

After the battle Frey made a comment about him being back in his cell.  Jaime had offered to allow Edmure to take his family to Casterly Rock, but Edmure turned down the offer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 23, 2017, 09:00:54 PM
Much better episode. Things are picking up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on July 23, 2017, 09:07:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2017, 09:57:16 AM
Having said that, I'm sure we'll get ten scenes of Gray Worm/Missandei romance garbage soon enough.

Indeed, at least it also included nudity, but even so how does that couple get a 5 minutes scene?

Overall though a great episode with a nice battle scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 09:37:36 PM
I was sure Euron was going to capture Yara and Ellaria and let Cersei do her torture thing.  I like it better this way.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were the worst characters in the show, but just seeing them all killed was enough for me.  Seeing them tortured might have made me pity them, and I didn't want to do that.  Yara as a character won't be missed, either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 23, 2017, 10:05:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 09:37:36 PM
I was sure Euron was going to capture Yara and Ellaria and let Cersei do her torture thing.  I like it better this way.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were the worst characters in the show, but just seeing them all killed was enough for me.  Seeing them tortured might have made me pity them, and I didn't want to do that.  Yara as a character won't be missed, either.

Ellaria and her daughter were captured and cersei will torture them (probably make the mother watch her daughter die* as payback for killin cersei's daughter). Unless I missed something. The pirates took them up the stairs.


*unless bronn saves the daughter because of his old crush, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 23, 2017, 10:38:37 PM
I think Ellara and Yara are alive.  At least two Sand Snakes are dead.  Hopefully they will all die soon.  Did medieval ships fight one another on the open sea at night?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 23, 2017, 10:40:40 PM
They spent like 2 minutes nailing the audience over the head that that one sand snake who survived was ellarias daughter, so I assume it means something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 23, 2017, 10:47:26 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 23, 2017, 09:00:54 PM
Much better episode. Things are picking up.
Predictable, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 23, 2017, 10:05:09 PM
Ellaria and her daughter were captured and cersei will torture them (probably make the mother watch her daughter die* as payback for killin cersei's daughter). Unless I missed something. The pirates took them up the stairs.


*unless bronn saves the daughter because of his old crush, but I doubt it.

The episode ends with Theon looking up at the bowsprit of his ship and seeing his sister hanged and Ellaria impaled, unless those were supposed to be two other people who looked to me to be dressed just like we had last seen Yara and Ellaria.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 23, 2017, 11:15:19 PM
It was the two sand snakes euron killed. He impaled one and choked the other with her whip.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 11:28:04 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 23, 2017, 11:15:19 PM
It was the two sand snakes euron killed. He impaled one and choked the other with her whip.

I'm not sure why they would have that reaction shot for Theon, then.  It also makes no sense for Euron to display them like that, but then it was a quick shot that showed no faces and you may be right.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 23, 2017, 11:42:37 PM
As much as I was hoping for an Arya and The Hound reunion tour as soon as possible, I'm glad she has reconsidered her decision to go north.  I do wonder if she'll now head to King's Landing again or re-route elsewhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 11:46:56 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 23, 2017, 11:42:37 PM
As much as I was hoping for an Arya and The Hound reunion tour as soon as possible, I'm glad she has reconsidered her decision to go north.  I do wonder if she'll now head to King's Landing again or re-route elsewhere.

What makes you think she has reconsidered her new plan to return to Winterfell?  She was going to King's Landing but turned around and headed north after to talking to Hot Pie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on July 23, 2017, 11:56:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 11:46:56 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 23, 2017, 11:42:37 PM
As much as I was hoping for an Arya and The Hound reunion tour as soon as possible, I'm glad she has reconsidered her decision to go north.  I do wonder if she'll now head to King's Landing again or re-route elsewhere.

What makes you think she has reconsidered her new plan to return to Winterfell?  She was going to King's Landing but turned around and headed north after to talking to Hot Pie.
Her run in with Nymeria and her comment after Nymeria left her when Arya suggested that Nymeria should accompany her home to the Winterfell and the north.  She said, "That's not you".  Which I took to be self-referential in terms of she cannot "go home" anymore as she is no longer that Arya Stark.  She's no longer the girl from Winterfell who adopted Nymeria.  She's changed and there is only going forward now, not back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on July 24, 2017, 12:04:00 AM
the porto-canuck is right, as much as it pains me to admit, that is just the two dead Sand snakes. Theon's sister and the other two Dornish aren't shown killed at end of episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 12:12:07 AM
Quote from: katmai on July 24, 2017, 12:04:00 AM
the porto-canuck is right, as much as it pains me to admit, that is just the two dead Sand snakes. Theon's sister and the other two Dornish aren't shown killed at end of episode.

Weird that they would have Euron bothering to display the dead bodies of two people almost no one in the fleet would know, but it certainly makes more sense from a story line to have Ellaria captured (as i noted above before the season started).  Cersei's gotta show how evil she is somehow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Malicious Intent on July 24, 2017, 04:32:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 23, 2017, 10:05:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 09:37:36 PM
I was sure Euron was going to capture Yara and Ellaria and let Cersei do her torture thing.  I like it better this way.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were the worst characters in the show, but just seeing them all killed was enough for me.  Seeing them tortured might have made me pity them, and I didn't want to do that.  Yara as a character won't be missed, either.

Ellaria and her daughter were captured and cersei will torture them (probably make the mother watch her daughter die* as payback for killin cersei's daughter). Unless I missed something. The pirates took them up the stairs.


*unless bronn saves the daughter because of his old crush, but I doubt it.


Maybe Cersei will kill mother and daughter in a way reminiscent of the death of Brandon and Rickard Stark. Would probably give Jaime further flashbacks to Aerys' rule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 24, 2017, 06:30:39 AM
I was actually think the same thing. Maybe she's developed a thing for fire since making the  sept go boom.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 24, 2017, 06:30:55 AM
Quote from: katmai on July 24, 2017, 12:04:00 AM
the porto-canuck is right, as much as it pains me to admit, that is just the two dead Sand snakes. Theon's sister and the other two Dornish aren't shown killed at end of episode.

You know you love me :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 24, 2017, 07:46:54 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 24, 2017, 04:32:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 23, 2017, 10:05:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 09:37:36 PM
I was sure Euron was going to capture Yara and Ellaria and let Cersei do her torture thing.  I like it better this way.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were the worst characters in the show, but just seeing them all killed was enough for me.  Seeing them tortured might have made me pity them, and I didn't want to do that.  Yara as a character won't be missed, either.

Ellaria and her daughter were captured and cersei will torture them (probably make the mother watch her daughter die* as payback for killin cersei's daughter). Unless I missed something. The pirates took them up the stairs.


*unless bronn saves the daughter because of his old crush, but I doubt it.


Maybe Cersei will kill mother and daughter in a way reminiscent of the death of Brandon and Rickard Stark. Would probably give Jaime further flashbacks to Aerys' rule.
and that would trigger her end, as the nobles rally behind Dorne, as they did with the Stark and Baratheon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 23, 2017, 10:05:09 PM
Ellaria and her daughter were captured and cersei will torture them (probably make the mother watch her daughter die* as payback for killin cersei's daughter). Unless I missed something. The pirates took them up the stairs.


*unless bronn saves the daughter because of his old crush, but I doubt it.

The episode ends with Theon looking up at the bowsprit of his ship and seeing his sister hanged and Ellaria impaled, unless those were supposed to be two other people who looked to me to be dressed just like we had last seen Yara and Ellaria.

You should probably watch that scene again.  It is the two sand snakes, one hanging from her whip and the other impaled.

A very disappointing episode.  The best of the Iron Born fleet destroyed in a short night battle by a fleet that was hastily built and manned by the remnants who were left. 

Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 12:12:07 AM
Quote from: katmai on July 24, 2017, 12:04:00 AM
the porto-canuck is right, as much as it pains me to admit, that is just the two dead Sand snakes. Theon's sister and the other two Dornish aren't shown killed at end of episode.

Weird that they would have Euron bothering to display the dead bodies of two people almost no one in the fleet would know, but it certainly makes more sense from a story line to have Ellaria captured (as i noted above before the season started).  Cersei's gotta show how evil she is somehow.

The fleet is destroyed, so that isn't the reason.  The display was probably for Ellaria.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 24, 2017, 09:16:47 AM
I think that's only half the fleet, or a portion there of, since greyworm, the unsullied, and dothraki are also heading to casterly rock. Still a big blow, and I wonder what will happen in dorn since the new leadership that killed the old leadership is now dead or captured.

and I don't think the second fleet, hastily built though it was (then again time is a bit nebulous on this show) was manned by the dregs. I think that yara's crew stole the original ships (she had her own raiding party) but the nobles of the iron island sided with Euron so he probably had the better and more numerous sailors/pirates, over all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 24, 2017, 10:39:28 AM
Presumably Dragonstone could be besieged now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 08:47:08 AM
You should probably watch that scene again.  It is the two sand snakes, one hanging from her whip and the other impaled.

I watched it multiple times.  They never show faces, as I mentioned, but the two are dressed like Ellaria and Yara (though also like Nymeria and Obara) and the show makes a point of showing a reaction shot as Theon sees them.  You should probably watch that scene again.

QuoteA very disappointing episode.  The best of the Iron Born fleet destroyed in a short night battle by a fleet that was hastily built and manned by the remnants who were left.

If you didn't like it, it must be pretty good.  You are a reliable antigauge of show quality.  :P

That wasn't a short battle, by the way.  It took weeks and big bucks to shoot and edit and had quite a bit of screen time.  The whole "thousand ship fleet" bit by Euron is absurd, of course.  That was discussed with here before the season started.  The conclusion was that ships are built at the speed the plot requires.

QuoteThe fleet is destroyed, so that isn't the reason.  The display was probably for Ellaria.

Ellaria was taken on deck and would have seen the corpses there.  Besides, they weren't even her daughters, so the effect seems misplaced if it was supposed to somehow dismay Ellaria.  The whole bowsprit decoration bit seems misplaced and overdone.  It may have simply been a bit of misdirection for the viewer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 11:19:53 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 24, 2017, 09:16:47 AM
I think that's only half the fleet, or a portion there of, since greyworm, the unsullied, and dothraki are also heading to casterly rock. Still a big blow, and I wonder what will happen in dorn since the new leadership that killed the old leadership is now dead or captured.

I think the Dothraki are still with Dani, and only the Unsullied are going to Casterly Rock. 

I suspect we won't see Dorne again.  It naver made any sense that the mistress of a former prince and his bastard daughters would ever get control of the place to begin with (they have no legitimacy and are guilty of double regicide to boot), so the question would become, if someone takes over Dorne (and there are always heirs, no matter how distant), "why didn't they take over Dorne when the Martells were killed?"  I suspect the showrunners are quite aware of how badly they bungled the whole Dorne plotline, and will just let it go rather than making things worse.


Quoteand I don't think the second fleet, hastily built though it was (then again time is a bit nebulous on this show) was manned by the dregs. I think that yara's crew stole the original ships (she had her own raiding party) but the nobles of the iron island sided with Euron so he probably had the better and more numerous sailors/pirates, over all.

Quite.  Yara only offered Dani one hundred ships, so Euron quite outnumbered them (even if he didn't actually have "one thousand ships) and, as you say, had the vast majority of the Ironborn with him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 24, 2017, 12:19:27 PM
So many misleading cuts to new scenes :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 12:38:51 PM
The showrunners seriously DO NOT LIKE soup.  Last week they cut from images of diarrhea to images of soup, and this week it was from images of pus to images of soup.  The American Soup Council is going to go after their scalps!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 08:57:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 08:47:08 AM
You should probably watch that scene again.  It is the two sand snakes, one hanging from her whip and the other impaled.

I watched it multiple times.  They never show faces, as I mentioned, but the two are dressed like Ellaria and Yara (though also like Nymeria and Obara) a.

Your powers of perception may not be as keen as they once were back when you first sighted the Persian fleet at the battle of Salamis.  The face of the sand snake that was hung by the neck was visible in profile. But even if you missed that, she is being strung up by her whip - the thing that was being used to choke her in the last scene we saw her in.  The second impaled one has her face away from the camera, but her hair his clearly visible and that is enough to make the identification.  But even if you missed that, she is impaled in the same way as the last scene we saw her.

QuoteThat wasn't a short battle, by the way.  It took weeks and big bucks to shoot and edit and had quite a bit of screen time.  The whole "thousand ship fleet" bit by Euron is absurd, of course.  That was discussed with here before the season started.  The conclusion was that ships are built at the speed the plot requires.

It may have take weeks to shoot but they didn't get their money's worth.  You are the naval expert, so I am wondering how you feel about a battle consisting of the flag ship of the enemy fleet magically locating the flag of the Iron Born, in the dark, in the middle of a large fleet, and without any warning from any of the screening vessels -  closing, boarding and sailing away with their prize.

If they were going to invest so much time and money to the battle they should have done a better job writing the script. 

QuoteIt may have simply been a bit of misdirection for the viewer.

Well, they certainly misdirected you.  But I think that was unintentional :P

Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 11:19:53 AM
I suspect we won't see Dorne again. 


It is unclear whether the battle occurred while on the way to Dorne or after the Dornish troops had already been picked up.  If it is the former it is hard to imagine that an army of one of the seven kingdoms will not be engaged in some way.

Quote from: HVC on July 24, 2017, 09:16:47 AM
I think that's only half the fleet, or a portion there of, since greyworm, the unsullied, and dothraki are also heading to casterly rock. Still a big blow, and I wonder what will happen in dorn since the new leadership that killed the old leadership is now dead or captured.

and I don't think the second fleet, hastily built though it was (then again time is a bit nebulous on this show) was manned by the dregs. I think that yara's crew stole the original ships (she had her own raiding party) but the nobles of the iron island sided with Euron so he probably had the better and more numerous sailors/pirates, over all.

Good points, but I don't think the Iron Born fleet was split, rather the unsullied went of the part of the fleet that was not comprised of the Iron Born ships.

On reflection I think you are right about the quality of the second fleet.  But still magically finding and the flag in the dark in the middle of the fleet, without any warning, is a bit much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 10:06:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 08:57:06 PM
Your powers of perception may not be as keen as they once were back when you first sighted the Persian fleet at the battle of Salamis.  The face of the sand snake that was hung by the neck was visible in profile. But even if you missed that, she is being strung up by her whip - the thing that was being used to choke her in the last scene we saw her in.  The second impaled one has her face away from the camera, but her hair his clearly visible and that is enough to make the identification.  But even if you missed that, she is impaled in the same way as the last scene we saw her.

This is mere post-hoc rationalization.  You couldn't tell the difference between a rope and a whip at that distance.  The face was not in profile, it was hidden by hair (hair that was the same length as Yara's, and much longer than Nymeria's).  As for Obara, when she is left on the bowsprit, her hair is loose, while she wore it in a ponytail while alive (Ellaria wore hers loose, just like the figure on the bowsprit).  Her corpse is also now dressed in a yellow gown, while she was wearing dark leather armor when she was killed.


QuoteIt may have take weeks to shoot but they didn't get their money's worth.  You are the naval expert, so I am wondering how you feel about a battle consisting of the flag ship of the enemy fleet magically locating the flag of the Iron Born, in the dark, in the middle of a large fleet, and without any warning from any of the screening vessels -  closing, boarding and sailing away with their prize.

Magical dragons and zombies are okay with you, but finding the fleet flagship is too unrealistic for you?  :lol:  Okay.  There is no logical response to your complaint.

 

QuoteWell, they certainly misdirected you.  But I think that was unintentional :P

As noted above, the whole scene doesn't make any sense given that that is Obara and Nymeria.  There was no reason at all for Euron to single them out for a display to Theon or anyone else, and hairstyles and clothing changed.  I'm sure we will find out the reason for this (or discover that there was none) sooner or later.

QuoteIt is unclear whether the battle occurred while on the way to Dorne or after the Dornish troops had already been picked up.  If it is the former it is hard to imagine that an army of one of the seven kingdoms will not be engaged in some way.

Given the lack of Dornish commanders and troops on the flagship, it was clearly on the way to Dorne.

We may see a Dornish army, but I doubt we will see Dorne.  What would be the point?

QuoteOn reflection I think you are right about the quality of the second fleet.  But still magically finding and the flag in the dark in the middle of the fleet, without any warning, is a bit much.

I wonder where the flagship of a medieval fleet would be?  :hmm:  Maybe at the front, where everyone can see the flag?

Hey!

Maybe that's why it is called the FLAGship!  Because it has a big flag on it so the other ships know which ship to follow!

I notice that you completely miss the real absurd part about the start of that battle:  that there are a million lanterns scattered all around the Ironborn ships (actually, it is so so we can see the actors, naturally).  No real wooden ship would allow that much fire around, untended.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 10:06:31 PM
This is mere post-hoc rationalization.  You couldn't tell the difference between a rope and a whip at that distance. 

Grumbles, you are the only person who thought it wasn't the sand snakes.  Just gracefully back away for once in your life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on July 25, 2017, 12:57:21 AM
CC :lmfao: Like he will concede.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 25, 2017, 05:20:27 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 24, 2017, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 10:06:31 PM
This is mere post-hoc rationalization.  You couldn't tell the difference between a rope and a whip at that distance. 

Grumbles, you are the only person who thought it wasn't the sand snakes.  Just gracefully back away for once in your life.

I have already said that I accept that it was the sand snakes.  It is your arrogant assertion that this was obvious that I pointed  out was wrong.  And now, I see, you are sidestepping that to make an ad hom argument.  You do accept, then, that the hair and clothing on the "displayed" sand snakes is, as I noted, different from they were when we saw them killed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 25, 2017, 05:24:41 AM
katmai:   :lmfao:  I conceded that those were probably sand snakes (and that their being sand snakes served the story better) back when HVC pointed it out...

and again when you agreed with him. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on July 25, 2017, 10:27:29 AM
grumbler just doesn't know when to admit when he's wrong.  Sad!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on July 25, 2017, 01:04:45 PM
I found the mystery weapon that Cersei's Dr. Frankenstein presented a bit underwhelming. A ballista? That's it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 25, 2017, 02:18:49 PM
the dornish killed a dragon that way in one of the history books (I think). And I guess the horn isn't making an appearance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on July 25, 2017, 02:20:51 PM
Hitting a moving target with a siege weapon? :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 25, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 25, 2017, 02:20:51 PM
Hitting a moving target with a siege weapon? :hmm:

a few dozen firing at once, I mean it's possible. Besides, what else do they have? how would you kill a dragon? :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 25, 2017, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: Zanza on July 25, 2017, 01:04:45 PM
I found the mystery weapon that Cersei's Dr. Frankenstein presented a bit underwhelming. A ballista? That's it?

Yeah, that was pretty underwhelming, and it actually looked kinda small, hardly something people had been working day and night to put together. I mean, it was in the history books after all, it was hardly groundbreaking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on July 25, 2017, 03:17:16 PM
Close quarter air defense is just putting as many bullets into the air as possible, right? I single spear from a ballista has a rather poor chance to hit a flying fast-moving, very maneouverable target like the dragons shown in the GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 25, 2017, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on July 25, 2017, 03:17:16 PM
Close quarter air defense is just putting as many bullets into the air as possible, right? I single spear from a ballista has a rather poor chance to hit a flying fast-moving, very maneouverable target like the dragons shown in the GoT.
Yes.  I hope that was just the first example of the batch.

Though I'm doubtful and obviously due to the laws of movies one of the dragons is probably going to go from the crossbow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 25, 2017, 05:29:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 25, 2017, 10:27:29 AM
grumbler just doesn't know when to admit when he's wrong.  Sad!

:lol:  What am I wrong about this time?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on July 26, 2017, 07:27:42 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 25, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 25, 2017, 02:20:51 PM
Hitting a moving target with a siege weapon? :hmm:

a few dozen firing at once, I mean it's possible. Besides, what else do they have? how would you kill a dragon? :lol:

In Skyrim I killed several with bows and arrows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on July 26, 2017, 07:41:22 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 25, 2017, 03:17:16 PM
Close quarter air defense is just putting as many bullets into the air as possible, right? I single spear from a ballista has a rather poor chance to hit a flying fast-moving, very maneouverable target like the dragons shown in the GoT.

The dragons hover when breathing fire IIRC, so a matter of timing perhaps
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 26, 2017, 09:59:41 AM
Quote from: Gups on July 26, 2017, 07:41:22 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 25, 2017, 03:17:16 PM
Close quarter air defense is just putting as many bullets into the air as possible, right? I single spear from a ballista has a rather poor chance to hit a flying fast-moving, very maneouverable target like the dragons shown in the GoT.

The dragons hover when breathing fire IIRC, so a matter of timing perhaps

They don't have to hover when breathing fire.  They do so only when they want to concentrate on a target for more than a couple of seconds.  If someone could figure out where a target was that the dragon had to burn, and have to hover to do so, they could put one of these ballistas there and hope the crew had the balls to risk getting burned alive if they missed or were not fast enough.

Hitting a moving target with these would be pretty much impossible (how could you possibly calculate the proper lead, especially when you don't even know how fast the dragons fly) and hitting a stationary one would be very, very difficult on the first shot, because you don't know the range and its going to take a couple of shots to figure out the right elevation for the range.  You are not likely to get a couple of ranging shots before you are (literally) toast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on July 26, 2017, 11:03:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 26, 2017, 09:59:41 AM
They don't have to hover when breathing fire.  They do so only when they want to concentrate on a target for more than a couple of seconds.  If someone could figure out where a target was that the dragon had to burn, and have to hover to do so, they could put one of these ballistas there and hope the crew had the balls to risk getting burned alive if they missed or were not fast enough.

Hitting a moving target with these would be pretty much impossible (how could you possibly calculate the proper lead, especially when you don't even know how fast the dragons fly) and hitting a stationary one would be very, very difficult on the first shot, because you don't know the range and its going to take a couple of shots to figure out the right elevation for the range.  You are not likely to get a couple of ranging shots before you are (literally) toast.

Pretty sure Cersei's people will kill one anyway. It'll probably be a lot of misses followed by a "strong" man, possibly Jaime or the Mountain pushing the former shooter away and then hitting a dragon with their first shot right before they're toast.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 26, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
I don't even think it'll be Cersei's armies, since it will die north of the wall to be zombified. or I guess it could get injured and fly north after a battle. either way we'll have a zombie dragon controlled by a white walker this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 26, 2017, 11:25:38 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 26, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
I don't even think it'll be Cersei's armies, since it will die north of the wall to be zombified. or I guess it could get injured and fly north after a battle. either way we'll have a zombie dragon controlled by a white walker this season.

I don't think that is possible. Dragons are creature of Rhaelor while the White Walkers are creatures of that other god.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 26, 2017, 11:32:33 AM
Dany is too over powered with three dragons. Either there are dead dragons in the wall or something, or one of her trio dies, but either way the Nights king is getting a (ice breathing?) dragon. That and she's nailing her nephew, to keep tradition alive :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 26, 2017, 11:33:18 AM
and I guess technically the white walkers are creatures of the old gods, since the children made them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 26, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 26, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
I don't even think it'll be Cersei's armies, since it will die north of the wall to be zombified. or I guess it could get injured and fly north after a battle. either way we'll have a zombie dragon controlled by a white walker this season.

I agree.  We already have seen some reported first cuts at a storyboard showing the Night's King on what looks like an ice dragon.  If true, this could be a dragon that has always been in the far north and was just now "awakened," but I think it is likelier that it is one of Dani's dragons, killed by the Army f the Dead and reanimated by the Night's King.

The ballista thing may wound a dragon, but think how unlikely it is that one shot will kill a dragon, and how unlikely multiple hits will be.  I think that Jamie's army will carry some of these ballistas when it gets wrecked, and one of them may hit a dragon, but  I think that only one dragon dies (Jon is going to become a dragon rider, after all, so two have to survive) and that that one dies north of the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 26, 2017, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 26, 2017, 11:25:38 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 26, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
I don't even think it'll be Cersei's armies, since it will die north of the wall to be zombified. or I guess it could get injured and fly north after a battle. either way we'll have a zombie dragon controlled by a white walker this season.

I don't think that is possible. Dragons are creature of Rhaelor while the White Walkers are creatures of that other god.

If a dragon is dead, it is no longer a creature of Rhaelor.  We've seen no evidence that red priests, for example, or other believers in Rhaelor, cannot be zombified.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 26, 2017, 12:40:22 PM
We've seen no evidence of the opposite either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 26, 2017, 04:45:44 PM
Then an argument that something is impossible based on zero evidence seems a little premature.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 30, 2017, 09:07:26 PM
Another good episode. Tyrion is smart, especially on the personal and manipulative level, but he doesn't have the strategical experience and its showing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 30, 2017, 09:55:40 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 30, 2017, 09:07:26 PM
Another good episode. Tyrion is smart, especially on the personal and manipulative level, but he doesn't have the strategical experience and its showing. 

Yes, it was telling that they did not consider where it would be worst for them for Euron's fleet to be (which was near the unsullied fleet) and use the dragons accordingly.  Strategic thinking comes hard.

At least the Tyrell defeat wasn't drawn out.  Now the defeat of the Lannisters and Tarlys can take center stage.

The portrayal by Jim Broadbent was the highlight of the show.  Even better than Diana Rigg!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2017, 09:58:00 PM
Sailing the Unsullied all the way round Westeros while Euron was at large is pretty pinheaded.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 30, 2017, 10:04:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 30, 2017, 09:55:40 PM

The portrayal by Jim Broadbent was the highlight of the show.  Even better than Diana Rigg!

Yeah, sam's new surrogate dad was good. I also like euron. He's a weird amalgamation of the book greyjoy brothers, but the actor pulls it off. Especially when antagonizing Jaime. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 30, 2017, 10:11:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2017, 09:58:00 PM
Sailing the Unsullied all the way round Westeros while Euron was at large is pretty pinheaded.

No one know about Euron when they sent the Unsullied.  This is crap criticism.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on July 30, 2017, 10:15:36 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 30, 2017, 10:04:44 PM
Yeah, sam's new surrogate dad was good. I also like euron. He's a weird amalgamation of the book greyjoy brothers, but the actor pulls it off. Especially when antagonizing Jaime. 

Pilou Asbæk is having too much fun with his script to make me believe that he is admirable in that role.   The writers obviously love him, which makes me, at best, ambivalent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 30, 2017, 10:32:44 PM
The Sand Snakes are dead!  Hooray!  I was kind of curious how Lady Olenna got back to Highgarden so fast. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 30, 2017, 10:34:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2017, 11:10:43 AM
whole "thousand ship fleet" bit by Euron is absurd, of course.  That was discussed with here before the season started.  The conclusion was that ships are built at the speed the plot requires.
you are taking things too literally.  He didn't mean "buid me 1000 ships, not one less", he meant "build me a lot of ships".  He might have 400-500 ships and judged it was enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 30, 2017, 10:49:55 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2017, 09:58:00 PM
Sailing the Unsullied all the way round Westeros while Euron was at large is pretty pinheaded.
they didn't know of Euron before the Unsullied were sent away, along with the fleet to gather the Dornish soldiers.

It is certainly a failure of their spymaster to not know about Euron.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on July 31, 2017, 12:16:54 AM
I'm kinda wondering what the point of following Sam around is.  I figured he would be the guy who met and treated Jorah, but we got that out of the way pretty quickly. His father seems to be moving up in the world, so maybe we going somewhere with that.

It was kind of alluded to that Sam's boss (the guy Broadbent plays) was writing the history of the War.  I wonder if that's suppose to be Sam's ultimate fate.  Didn't Samwise Gamgee (who Samwell Tarly is named after) finish the history of the Lord of the Rings?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2017, 12:57:22 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 31, 2017, 12:16:54 AM
I'm kinda wondering what the point of following Sam around is.  I figured he would be the guy who met and treated Jorah, but we got that out of the way pretty quickly. His father seems to be moving up in the world, so maybe we going somewhere with that.

It was kind of alluded to that Sam's boss (the guy Broadbent plays) was writing the history of the War.  I wonder if that's suppose to be Sam's ultimate fate.  Didn't Samwise Gamgee (who Samwell Tarly is named after) finish the history of the Lord of the Rings?

Seems pretty obvious to me that he's going to rediscover the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch that will smite the white walkers.

The leper cells made zero sense.  They lock them up in order to tell them there's no cure and that they have to leave.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on July 31, 2017, 06:40:07 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2017, 12:57:22 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 31, 2017, 12:16:54 AM
I'm kinda wondering what the point of following Sam around is.  I figured he would be the guy who met and treated Jorah, but we got that out of the way pretty quickly. His father seems to be moving up in the world, so maybe we going somewhere with that.

It was kind of alluded to that Sam's boss (the guy Broadbent plays) was writing the history of the War.  I wonder if that's suppose to be Sam's ultimate fate.  Didn't Samwise Gamgee (who Samwell Tarly is named after) finish the history of the Lord of the Rings?

Seems pretty obvious to me that he's going to rediscover the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch that will smite the white walkers.

The leper cells made zero sense.  They lock them up in order to tell them there's no cure and that they have to leave.

I dunno. Kind of makes sense for me. Spread the word amongst the population that if you catch this disease you just have to report to a maester and he'll send you to Oldtown to be cured....
Once there they lock you up and then when there's a ship available send the sufferers away to Valyria.

The part that doesn't make sense is having these ships making runs to Valyria. A land halfway around the world which is supposed to be a utterly cursed land of no return where few dare tread and fewer return. Surely they could find a more convenient place for a leper colony.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on July 31, 2017, 06:57:56 AM
I liked the scene with the Dorne girls for once, used as an instrument for Cersei's revenge rather than for their own story. Lena Headey is playing the shit out of this evil queen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 31, 2017, 07:02:19 AM
Whoever does her wardrobe needs to take it down a notch or two though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 31, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
They're trying to lady Macbeth her up. It's a shame though, that with all the great actors, both regular and guest, that Emilia Clark is so bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on July 31, 2017, 07:56:21 AM
Quote from: HVC on July 31, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
They're trying to lady Macbeth her up. It's a shame though, that with all the great actors, both regular and guest, that Emilia Clark is so bad.

That Bran actor doesn't really hold up either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 31, 2017, 08:37:12 AM
yeah, child actors are hit or miss. sometimes they grown into it, and sometimes they don't. He didn't. 

His new zoned out character is off putting too (and not just because of the rape reminder), but I don't know how much of it is the actor, and how much the character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on July 31, 2017, 09:10:35 AM
I am not sure what the point of creepy Bran pointing out to Sansa that he watched her get raped was...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on July 31, 2017, 09:52:03 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 30, 2017, 10:15:36 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 30, 2017, 10:04:44 PM
Yeah, sam's new surrogate dad was good. I also like euron. He's a weird amalgamation of the book greyjoy brothers, but the actor pulls it off. Especially when antagonizing Jaime. 

Pilou Asbæk is having too much fun with his script to make me believe that he is admirable in that role.   The writers obviously love him, which makes me, at best, ambivalent.

He's just filling the Ramsey Bolton-vacated role of over-the-top psycho bad guy,
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on July 31, 2017, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 31, 2017, 09:10:35 AM
I am not sure what the point of creepy Bran pointing out to Sansa that he watched her get raped was...
Yes, that was strange. They could have used just about any other scene.
And him being all-knowing somehow would mean he knows about Arya as well...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2017, 01:13:19 PM
Creepy Bran's behavior is consistent with his transformation.  His problem is just that he got ugly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on July 31, 2017, 04:48:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2017, 01:13:19 PM
Creepy Bran's behavior is consistent with his transformation.  His problem is just that he got ugly.


What the fuck are you talking about?  Have you seen those dark eyes, that nose, and those gorgeous lips!?  I'd trim the eyebrows but otherwise he's grown into quite a nice specimen of manling.

-----

So Bran can watch his siblings from afar...  I wonder if he already knows Aria is on her way?  Great episode all around , with the last meeting between Jamie and Olenna a highlight.  The 'old cunt' rules, even when dying.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on July 31, 2017, 05:19:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 31, 2017, 09:10:35 AM
I am not sure what the point of creepy Bran pointing out to Sansa that he watched her get raped was...

I guess it was meant to portray him as empathy-less and getting detached from humanity in a way, but it turned out way too creepy. I guess it was also meant to show that Sansa is still emotionally vulnerable, which might be a way to pave the way for her to get manipulated by Littlefinger. I mean, both Bran and Petyr pulled out the "see every possibility at the same time" card.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
The Jamie and Olenna scene was missing one key element.  After Olenna tells Jamie it was her that killed Joffrie, Jamie should have said, "you meant to be cruel by telling me that, but in fact you have done me a great kindness by letting me know it wasn't my brother."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on July 31, 2017, 07:39:39 PM
Ollena was to loved not to be let go on a high note (well as high as you can as you die from poison).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on July 31, 2017, 09:18:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 31, 2017, 12:16:54 AM
I'm kinda wondering what the point of following Sam around is.  I figured he would be the guy who met and treated Jorah, but we got that out of the way pretty quickly. His father seems to be moving up in the world, so maybe we going somewhere with that.

It was kind of alluded to that Sam's boss (the guy Broadbent plays) was writing the history of the War.  I wonder if that's suppose to be Sam's ultimate fate.  Didn't Samwise Gamgee (who Samwell Tarly is named after) finish the history of the Lord of the Rings?

I think what we see is someone reading the story from a book Sam wrote. Everything is Sam's point of view.

I like Jorah, I'm glad he's back.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on July 31, 2017, 11:11:16 PM
Tits and Dragons really delivered on its name this time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on July 31, 2017, 11:35:01 PM
Script for episode #4 have been stolen from HBO, as well as episodes from Baller and Room 104.
Hackers are proposing journalists to seel them the script.  Weird.  Who would pay for that when it's one week away?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 01, 2017, 04:18:09 AM
Yeah I think they wanted to show that Bran is fast detaching from his humanity.

And we need to follow Sam because he will be the one to discover that magic works again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 01, 2017, 05:41:08 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 31, 2017, 06:40:07 AM
The part that doesn't make sense is having these ships making runs to Valyria. A land halfway around the world which is supposed to be a utterly cursed land of no return where few dare tread and fewer return. Surely they could find a more convenient place for a leper colony.
Agreed.  In the book, the leper colony was on an island in the Royne, which makes more sense.

Anyone else think that Archmaester Ebrose is having Sam copy the ancient books because he wants Sam to read them but needs an excuse "within the rules" to allow him access?  What is Sam going to find out?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 01, 2017, 05:58:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 01, 2017, 05:41:08 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 31, 2017, 06:40:07 AM
The part that doesn't make sense is having these ships making runs to Valyria. A land halfway around the world which is supposed to be a utterly cursed land of no return where few dare tread and fewer return. Surely they could find a more convenient place for a leper colony.
Agreed.  In the book, the leper colony was on an island in the Royne, which makes more sense.

Anyone else think that Archmaester Ebrose is having Sam copy the ancient books because he wants Sam to read them but needs an excuse "within the rules" to allow him access?  What is Sam going to find out?

How to throw fireballs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 01, 2017, 06:38:31 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 01, 2017, 05:41:08 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 31, 2017, 06:40:07 AM
The part that doesn't make sense is having these ships making runs to Valyria. A land halfway around the world which is supposed to be a utterly cursed land of no return where few dare tread and fewer return. Surely they could find a more convenient place for a leper colony.
Agreed.  In the book, the leper colony was on an island in the Royne, which makes more sense.

Anyone else think that Archmaester Ebrose is having Sam copy the ancient books because he wants Sam to read them but needs an excuse "within the rules" to allow him access?  What is Sam going to find out?

I think so as well. i'm assuming its stuff about the white walkers, or how to make the magic fire stuff the mad king loved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 01, 2017, 08:58:04 AM
We've already seen a preview that has Sam looking in the old books at a picture of the "cat's paw" dagger that was used by the guy who tried to assassinate Bran (and now possessed by Littlefinger).  Any guesses as to why it would be in an old tome like that?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 01, 2017, 09:17:54 AM
the catspaw preview was indeed little finger (same rings). Unless it's a psych out that means nothing maybe little finger is going to try to finish the bran job. after all, someone who can see through all your lies has to be someone little finger would want gone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 01, 2017, 10:06:38 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 01, 2017, 05:41:08 AM
Anyone else think that Archmaester Ebrose is having Sam copy the ancient books because he wants Sam to read them but needs an excuse "within the rules" to allow him access?

Thought that was strongly telegraphed.  Does the Archmaester of the entire Citadel typically concern himself with the details of manuscript preservation?  Would not think so unless the books in question were of a particular interest and significance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 02, 2017, 07:29:01 AM
I didn't get that impression but it does make sense. It would certainly move along Sams story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 04, 2017, 10:04:40 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGUL4oBU0AAiUHm.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 04, 2017, 10:09:41 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGWJQSgUMAAGWI7.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 04, 2017, 10:50:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on August 04, 2017, 10:04:40 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGUL4oBU0AAiUHm.jpg)

(https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20525682_1506269786099921_3984565322284633725_n.jpg?oh=bd11b177c8ef3b68e58cae9935a2c925&oe=5A38AFF6)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 04, 2017, 01:31:01 PM
Episode 4 has been leaked, for those so inclined to watch a few days early.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 04, 2017, 01:35:04 PM
Just remembered that Jaime is Danish too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 04, 2017, 05:20:10 PM
Just watched it - dragon action is the shit. :D



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 04, 2017, 06:19:20 PM
Leaked scenes are all over YouTube right now. I recommend avoiding it entirely until Sunday night if you don't want some spoilers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on August 04, 2017, 06:54:45 PM
Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 04, 2017, 07:14:23 PM
I'll watch it on sunday.  I'm not that interested in braving the wasteland of torrents and Putlocker.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 04, 2017, 11:15:21 PM
I ran across a theory that I like quite a bit, and which answers some questions about how Euron was so knowledgeable about the movement of Dani's fleets:  Varys is betraying Dani, just as she suspected.  That's what the foreshadowing about burning him alive, and him dying in Westeros, was all about.

That's also why Tyrion boasted about being an excellent judge of character, right after he vouched for Varys... to set up some irony.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 04, 2017, 11:33:41 PM
Is part of the theory being that Cersei and her bestest buddy Qyburn have Varys' beloved "little birds" as hostages?  I think they might be the only thing that he actually truly cares about other than himself.  Maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 05, 2017, 12:35:17 AM
So... found a source for the full download and watched it as Sunday is going to be very busy for me and I probably wouldn't have had a chance to watch it till Monday night at the earliest.  All I'll say is... whoa. :o
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 05, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 04, 2017, 11:33:41 PM
Is part of the theory being that Cersei and her bestest buddy Qyburn have Varys' beloved "little birds" as hostages?  I think they might be the only thing that he actually truly cares about other than himself.  Maybe.

The theory didn't mention that, but it's a thought. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 05, 2017, 07:56:28 AM
Now, thinking about last week's title, I realized that "the Queen's Justice" wasn't just the "justice" meted out by Cersei on the Sand Snakes and Danyris on Varys, but also the Queen of Thorn's on Cersei.  That last little barb about killing Joffrey is going to be big, because Cersei will refuse to accept that Tyrion is innocent of the crime, and that will drive a wedge between her and Jamie.  I suspect that we have seen the last time the two fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 05, 2017, 08:40:53 AM
Yeah. Big redemption of Jaime setup. He seems more anti Tyrion here than in the  books
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 05, 2017, 07:29:10 PM
Oh, and another piece of evidence that Varys is working against Dani:  Hot Pie knows that Jon Snow is king of the North, but Dani does not.  Varys, the all-knowing Spider, doesn't know what Hot Pie knows?  Yeah.   Had Dani known about Jon, she would presumably have seen him immediately as a potential ally, since he also opposed the Lannisters, and would have treated with him first thing.  Having Jon as an ally might have emboldened Dani to seek a more rapid resolution against the Lannisters, and Varys doesn't seem to want that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 09:56:52 AM
More Varys speculation:  AFAICR, we know of only one major character that also shaved his head in the Martin books, Egg, who did so in order to hide his Targaryn heritage, revealed by his hair.  Is it possible that Varys is related to the Targaryns, maybe as a Blackfyre?  That would explain why he was used by the wizard who castrated him (he would have had "the blood of kings") and provides him with a motive to ensure that Dani isn't too strong when she takes the throne.  He would be (as far as he knows) her heir, were he the last Blackfyre.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on August 06, 2017, 10:20:05 AM
The Blackfyres are likely not part of the TV series' canon. They also dropped that Targaryen (pretender?) that was introduced in the last books as part of some mercenary band that invaded Westeros (can't remember the name, Golden something and the Targaryen is supposedly Aegon V).

Aemon is dead, so Dany and Jon are the only Targaryens left in the TV series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 06, 2017, 10:36:46 AM
I hope Varys isn't a double agent for Cersei. it would seem to go against his character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 03:43:22 PM
Quote from: Zanza on August 06, 2017, 10:20:05 AM
The Blackfyres are likely not part of the TV series' canon. They also dropped that Targaryen (pretender?) that was introduced in the last books as part of some mercenary band that invaded Westeros (can't remember the name, Golden something and the Targaryen is supposedly Aegon V).

Aemon is dead, so Dany and Jon are the only Targaryens left in the TV series.

There is no evidence that the Blackfyres are not part of the series canon - Selmy Barriston gained his fame by killing the last of the Blackfyre pretenders.  The Aegon V bit was dropped, as it was an added complication (in the books, he is almost certainly a Blackfyre himself, descended from the female line), but there could still be a Varys - Blackfyre connection. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 03:48:54 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 06, 2017, 10:36:46 AM
I hope Varys isn't a double agent for Cersei. it would seem to go against his character.

He wouldn't be pro-Cersei so much as pro-chaos.  Remember when Oberyn Martell and Varys are alone i the throne room, and Oberyn questions Varys's claim that he is glad to be spared passions?  Oberyn says that everyone is passionate about something, so what is Varys passionate about?  Varys doesn't answer, but looks meaningfully at the empty throne.

Varys could be scheming towards the throne himself.  And the only other possibilities for the traitor are Missande and Tyrion, and neither of them have shown even a possible motive as yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 06, 2017, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 03:48:54 PM
Varys doesn't answer, but looks meaningfully at the empty throne.
I don't think he wants the throne for himself.  Well, he may want it, but he's smart enough to realize he couldn't hold it, having no support at all.

What he may be inclined for, is a form of anarchy, or proto-democracy with power to the small people instead of nobles living in their castles, removed from the common folk, like his orphan little birds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 06, 2017, 07:23:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 03:48:54 PM
Varys could be scheming towards the throne himself.  And the only other possibilities for the traitor are Missande and Tyrion, and neither of them have shown even a possible motive as yet.
Well, there are other possibilities.

The leak could be unintentional.  With the Tyrell and the Dornish aware of the plans, maybe someone on their side has been relaying information to Cersei.  It wouldn't be the first time someone opposed to the Lannister has switched camp. 

Or she really has a keen sense of strategy we haven't seen in her yet, able to guess Tyrion's move before he makes it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 06, 2017, 07:23:39 PM
Well, there are other possibilities.

The leak could be unintentional.  With the Tyrell and the Dornish aware of the plans, maybe someone on their side has been relaying information to Cersei.  It wouldn't be the first time someone opposed to the Lannister has switched camp. 

Or she really has a keen sense of strategy we haven't seen in her yet, able to guess Tyrion's move before he makes it.

One leak is possibly explicable to loose lips or some small-time traitor.  Two, though?  Coincidence can only stretch so far.

Not to mention Varys's repeated failures to keep Dani abreast of events like the evacuation of Casterly Rock (even if after the Unsullied had sortied), Jon's coronation, and even the rumors, a year old by now, that he was raised from the dead. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 06, 2017, 07:51:25 PM
I don't think Varys has the network he used to. Quiburn took his little birds.

I always saw him as the order to little fingers chaos. Little finger uses chaos to climb the ladder as he mentions.  Varys served to keep the realm stable. Robert was a crappy king, but a good ruler since he delegated and kept peace for 17 year (except for the iron born rebelian) so Varys strived to keep him in power, going so far as to trying to assassinate dani to keep the peace. Once he was gone Varys switched to dani because for the most part whee she conquered she brought peace stability and order. I don't see him helping cersei, who is definitely not a stabilizing force.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 06, 2017, 07:54:11 PM
Also, for some reason I think dani is going to turn bad. She's shown some sign of the targyrian madness and blood lust. We have one sane dragon in John, so the crazy coin might have landed for dani.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 09:07:20 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 06, 2017, 07:51:25 PM
I don't think Varys has the network he used to. Quiburn took his little birds.

I always saw him as the order to little fingers chaos. Little finger uses chaos to climb the ladder as he mentions.  Varys served to keep the realm stable. Robert was a crappy king, but a good ruler since he delegated and kept peace for 17 year (except for the iron born rebelian) so Varys strived to keep him in power, going so far as to trying to assassinate dani to keep the peace. Once he was gone Varys switched to dani because for the most part whee she conquered she brought peace stability and order. I don't see him helping cersei, who is definitely not a stabilizing force.

Varys undermined the Mad King, Raegar, and Robert.  He sent the assassin for Dani, but also sent Barriston Selmy to save her (because she hadn't married Kal Dorgo yet).  He only "switched to" Dani's side when Viserys, his first choice to lead the Dothraki against Westeros, was killed.

I don't think he wants a stabilizing force.  Viserys would not have been a stabilizing force.  Quite the opposite.

Qyburn has a handful of the "little birds," but couldn't possibly have them all.  How could he?  He wouldn't know who they were.  Varys let him have enough to keep the chaos going in King's Landing (death of Pycell, destruction of the Great Sept).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 09:11:55 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 06, 2017, 07:54:11 PM
Also, for some reason I think dani is going to turn bad. She's shown some sign of the targyrian madness and blood lust. We have one sane dragon in John, so the crazy coin might have landed for dani.

To some extent, for sure.  But, then, there is also a great deal of frustration on her part. 

I dunno why she wantonly destroyed the supplies she said in the earlier scene she needed.  She was passing down the Lannister line, and, instead of roasting the soldiers, burned the line of wagons.  Huh?

That first bit of the battle, where the dragon burns a whole in the Lannister line so the Dothraki could break the shield wall, was awesome.  One of the best scenes in the entire series. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 06, 2017, 09:20:26 PM
Sometimes i think the show/story would be better without dragons, though.  Sometimes, like today, I got so wrapped up in the whole battle with the Dotharki, and then the dragons came and I'm like....meh...almost deus ex machina.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 06, 2017, 09:20:26 PM
Sometimes i think the show/story would be better without dragons, though.  Sometimes, like today, I got so wrapped up in the whole battle with the Dotharki, and then the dragons came and I'm like....meh...almost deus ex machina.

Dragons reduce a lot of the drama from the battles, but that is okay.  Battles aren't where the drama should be in a show like this.  They are there for spectacle.  You always know who is going to win any given one.

I'd have liked to see just one line added to that episode; I'd have liked Jon to say, after telling Dani that the people would see her as just another butcher if she used the dragons against the cities, "but against armies, they'd understand."  Then, Dani would be acting on a suggestion after she confessed that she was losing the war, rather than her attack on the Lannisters coming out of the blue like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 06, 2017, 09:43:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 03:43:22 PM
There is no evidence that the Blackfyres are not part of the series canon - Selmy Barriston gained his fame by killing the last of the Blackfyre pretenders.  The Aegon V bit was dropped, as it was an added complication (in the books, he is almost certainly a Blackfyre himself, descended from the female line), but there could still be a Varys - Blackfyre connection.
The gentleman from The Iron Bank offers to contract The Golden Company, aka the Blackfyre mercenary group, on behalf of the Lannister cause.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2017, 11:30:23 PM
Time and space seem to have been abandoned in this season.  How did the Dothraki make it from Little Shitty Island to High Garden with no fleet left, Euron sitting at King's Landing, and while Jamie's army was still on the march?

Good battle scene though.  Makes up a bit for that crappy Battle of the Bastards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 06, 2017, 11:47:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 06, 2017, 09:35:20 PM
I'd have liked to see just one line added to that episode; I'd have liked Jon to say, after telling Dani that the people would see her as just another butcher if she used the dragons against the cities, "but against armies, they'd understand."  Then, Dani would be acting on a suggestion after she confessed that she was losing the war, rather than her attack on the Lannisters coming out of the blue like that.
that would have ruined the show.

We saw the Iron Bank representative stressing out to Cersei that he'd facilitate her ascension to True Queen once he got paid the entire debt.  Once we saw the convoy, we knew Danny was goint to attack and destroy it.  In all likelyhood, she saved the gold, and that will bring her supplies.  A huge chunk of the Lannister's army is dead by now, so moving supplies around won't be a problem, with her holding Casterly Rock.  With that gold, she may be able to convince others to join her cause too.  Maybe the Dornish can still be persuaded, if the realm is not in total anarchy.

And it might even be that Bronn and Jamei will be rescued from a certain death and traded for the Dornish queen and Theon's sister.  Supplies shouldn't be an issue anymore, so long as they come by land.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 07, 2017, 12:01:54 AM
Sams dad said the gold made it to the castle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 12:04:59 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2017, 11:30:23 PM
Time and space seem to have been abandoned in this season.  How did the Dothraki make it from Little Shitty Island to High Garden with no fleet left, Euron sitting at King's Landing, and while Jamie's army was still on the march?

Good battle scene though.  Makes up a bit for that crappy Battle of the Bastards.

1- the map: https://quartermaester.info/ (https://quartermaester.info/)

2- They have ships.  Tyrion says they still have enough ships to land at King's Landing.  Euron's fleet will not get close too close to Dragonstone, for fear of the dragons.

3- they're not in Highgarden anymore, they are travelling, away from the Castle, toward King's Landing and they are stopped near a body of water.  We could assume, based on the map, that they are at Bitterbridge, halfway through.

4- Using ships from Dragonstone, they can move the Dothrakis to Sharp Point / Stonedance, two minor houses, loyal to Targaryans in the past, so they could be convinced to join the fight on Daenarys' side.  It ain't that far, so they could easily do multiple trips if needed.

5- From there, walk through the woods, cross the river, ambush the Lannisters wherever you find them.  An early patrol on horse could be delegated to advance quietly and find the exact ennemy's positions.

6- Cersei has roughly half of her land troops with Jamei, and the other half to keep peace in King's Landing, with some patrols near the highways.  Remember, there are no national armies in Westeros (that was Joffrey's dream, though), they are feodal armies, meaning it's the Lannister and whomever they convinced to fight for them, and for those lords who have not commited troops to Highgarden, they would likely still be in their Castles, maintaining order and preparing for an attack from someone.  Since the south and the north are hostile to Cersei, as well as the center, that did not leave that much people. She did evacuate Casterly Rock to mount an army of decent size, so she can't keep control of all of the realm with what she has.

7- If you want to find a plothole:  there's no way a cavalry army could be charging for so long (it was a charge, that's why we heard the loud thumping) and still have its horses able to carry momentum when the time comes.  See Lord of the Rings #2 for how a proper cavalry charges works.  You wait until you see the ennemy to charge, otherwise, you exhaust the horses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 12:09:27 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 07, 2017, 12:01:54 AM
Sams dad said the gold made it to the castle.
oh, I missed that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:36:36 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 06, 2017, 09:43:43 PM
The gentleman from The Iron Bank offers to contract The Golden Company, aka the Blackfyre mercenary group, on behalf of the Lannister cause.

That's true (though it is Cersei who brings up the Golden Company, not Tycho Nestoris).  I think that the Blackfyre past of the Company may not even be mentioned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:39:37 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 06, 2017, 11:30:23 PM
Time and space seem to have been abandoned in this season.  How did the Dothraki make it from Little Shitty Island to High Garden with no fleet left, Euron sitting at King's Landing, and while Jamie's army was still on the march?

Good battle scene though.  Makes up a bit for that crappy Battle of the Bastards.

They had enough ships to land the Dothraki, as Tyrion pointed out.

The portion of the army that the Dothraki attack stayed behind to gather the harvest.  It's not going to be moving very fast with all of the train it has.  There was enough time between jamie sending Bron to help gather the harvest, and the convoy moving towards King's Landing, for that harvest to be gathered, loaded into a convoy, and to make some progress towards King's Landing.  I agree that that wasn't clear though.

Agree about the battle.  It's the best one yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:45:14 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 06, 2017, 11:47:02 PM
that would have ruined the show.

:lol:  Contrarian man is obviously contrary.

QuoteWe saw the Iron Bank representative stressing out to Cersei that he'd facilitate her ascension to True Queen once he got paid the entire debt.  Once we saw the convoy, we knew Danny was goint to attack and destroy it.  In all likelyhood, she saved the gold, and that will bring her supplies.  A huge chunk of the Lannister's army is dead by now, so moving supplies around won't be a problem, with her holding Casterly Rock.  With that gold, she may be able to convince others to join her cause too.  Maybe the Dornish can still be persuaded, if the realm is not in total anarchy.

Dani didn't get the gold.  She also didn't get the food she needed.  However, I am going to be interested to see how Tycho Nestorius responds to the evidence that Dani's dragons are simply unstoppable.  Cersei's side looks a lot less promising now that she has lost a big chunk of her army and has essentially lost control over any non-fortified territory.

QuoteAnd it might even be that Bronn and Jamei will be rescued from a certain death and traded for the Dornish queen and Theon's sister.  Supplies shouldn't be an issue anymore, so long as they come by land.

There is no Dornish Queen.  Jamie and Bron will certainly survive and will meet Jon Snow.  I wonder how convincing Jon will be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:49:33 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 12:04:59 AM
7- If you want to find a plothole:  there's no way a cavalry army could be charging for so long (it was a charge, that's why we heard the loud thumping) and still have its horses able to carry momentum when the time comes.  See Lord of the Rings #2 for how a proper cavalry charges works.  You wait until you see the ennemy to charge, otherwise, you exhaust the horses.

That was my thought as well, but, remember, these aren't typical horses from earth.  They are fantasy horses from a fantasy land.

A bigger plot hole is Bron using the ballista.  Where on earth would he have learned how to do that, calculating windage and ballistics?  He also re-wound the ballista far too easily (noting that big could shoot that fast), but, given that he was shooting at a dragon, unrealistic rewind speeds probably isn't the least realistic feature of that scene!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:55:37 AM
Here's a line I found interesting, and maybe fan service:  when asked who taught her to fight like that, Arya says "no one."  Syrio Forel was the one who taught her.  There has long been a fan theory that Syrio Forel was, in fact, Jaqen H'ghar.  Jaqen, of course, was a Faceless Man, and their description of themselves is, as we know, "no one."  Was she saying that she now knew that Syrio was a Faceless Man?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on August 07, 2017, 07:57:46 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:49:33 AM

A bigger plot hole is Bron using the ballista.  Where on earth would he have learned how to do that, calculating windage and ballistics?  He also re-wound the ballista far too easily (noting that big could shoot that fast), but, given that he was shooting at a dragon, unrealistic rewind speeds probably isn't the least realistic feature of that scene!

Hopefully Dany will learn not to fly in a straight line towards the next one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 08:00:40 AM
Quote from: Liep on August 07, 2017, 07:57:46 AM
Hopefully Dany will learn not to fly in a straight line towards the next one.

Or, at least, to have the dragon gout fire while she does it, both to shield the dragon from view and to effect the path of the bolt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 07, 2017, 08:59:44 AM
Okay, so who was it that saved Jamie against the dragon?  I thought it was Dickon, but's hard to tell. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 07, 2017, 09:02:56 AM
Eh, I found a video of it.  It looks like bron riding the same horse that lost it's leg a few minutes earlier.  I recognized the horse.  His name is Wessel.  Horse Wessel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 07, 2017, 09:17:28 AM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/aqppfejgdiezl0wpyivb.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Phillip V on August 07, 2017, 09:21:26 AM
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20638952_10155405447710498_6215697849469368973_n.jpg?oh=6bb7a80cf673a51e54689140ce37d6ab&oe=5A2BCD9A)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 07, 2017, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 07, 2017, 09:02:56 AM
Eh, I found a video of it.  It looks like bron riding the same horse that lost it's leg a few minutes earlier.  I recognized the horse.  His name is Wessel.  Horse Wessel.

It was a new horse. Brons three legged horse was brown, crispy horse was white.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 09:38:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:45:14 AM
:lol:  Contrarian man is obviously contrary.
I learnt from a master ;)

No, it's just that I hate these kind of shows where they take you by the hand to show you everything and spell it out loudly.  I like to figure out things by myself.


Quote
Dani didn't get the gold.
Yeah, my bad, I thought the gold was still there the convoy.  I find it strange that Bronn and Jaimie both stayed with the harvest convoy and let the gold out of their sight, I thought the gold was sent ahead and Bronn stayed a little behind with the stragglers.  Clearly, I misread the situation.

Quote
She also didn't get the food she needed.
There's still a lot of food in Westeros to be had, and the Dothrakis are presumably good on foraging on the field.

Quote
However, I am going to be interested to see how Tycho Nestorius responds to the evidence that Dani's dragons are simply unstoppable.  Cersei's side looks a lot less promising now that she has lost a big chunk of her army and has essentially lost control over any non-fortified territory.
Yes, only 3 episodes left, things are moving so fast :)

Quote
There is no Dornish Queen.
I forgot her name, but let's call her "Former and now emprisonned Dornish de facto leader after current ruler and his heir were killed in a coup organized by her following the assassination of Cersei's daughter".
So, clearer, now? :)

QuoteJamie and Bron will certainly survive and will meet Jon Snow.  I wonder how convincing Jon will be.
Might be enough to convince Jamie, doubtful he would convince Cersei, and I still doubt at this time Jamie would betray his sister. Something else should happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 09:39:40 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 07, 2017, 09:25:55 AM
It was a new horse. Brons three legged horse was brown, crispy horse was white.

Three-legged horse was a Dothraki horse, no?  I thought it was white.

Lotsa white horses there, so no biggie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 09:39:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 07:55:37 AM
Here's a line I found interesting, and maybe fan service:  when asked who taught her to fight like that, Arya says "no one."  Syrio Forel was the one who taught her.  There has long been a fan theory that Syrio Forel was, in fact, Jaqen H'ghar.  Jaqen, of course, was a Faceless Man, and their description of themselves is, as we know, "no one."  Was she saying that she now knew that Syrio was a Faceless Man?
Yes, I thought of this too.  Jaqen and Syrio might be two different indivudals, but I think she figured out that there's more than meet the eyes to Syrio.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 09:42:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 09:39:40 AM
Three-legged horse was a Dothraki horse, no?  I thought it was white.
no, a Dothraki leaned on the side to avoid Bronn's sword and cut his horse's legs.  that was the same horse he had at the begginning when Jamie ordered him to the Ballista.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 07, 2017, 09:45:54 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 09:39:40 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 07, 2017, 09:25:55 AM
It was a new horse. Brons three legged horse was brown, crispy horse was white.

Three-legged horse was a Dothraki horse, no?  I thought it was white.

Lotsa white horses there, so no biggie.

The dothraki horse was white, but it was brons horse that got clipped after he missed with his dagger throw. Like you say though, there are plenty of horses.

At first I thought it was dickon who saved Jaime (again) to continue to show how he's noble and not like his father so that when dani makes him crispy she looks even worse, but on a rewatch it was bron.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 09:38:00 AM
I learnt from a master ;)

Raz probably isn't the best role model you could pick.  :lol:

QuoteNo, it's just that I hate these kind of shows where they take you by the hand to show you everything and spell it out loudly.  I like to figure out things by myself.

What did you "figure out" by Dani going from rejecting Tyrion's advice to asking Jon for advice to then turning out to do something no one had even mentioned?  You cannot actually "figure out things" in the absence of data.  The entire "ask for advice" scene ended up being pointless without its resolution.


QuoteYeah, my bad, I thought the gold was still there the convoy.  I find it strange that Bronn and Jaimie both stayed with the harvest convoy and let the gold out of their sight, I thought the gold was sent ahead and Bronn stayed a little behind with the stragglers.  Clearly, I misread the situation.

Except for the one line of dialogue, that WAS very misleading.  Why, indeed, would Jamie stay with the wheat and not the vital gold?

QuoteThere's still a lot of food in Westeros to be had, and the Dothrakis are presumably good on foraging on the field.
Sansa, Jamie, and Dani were all worried about food supplies, so I imagine food is a concern to them.  The Reach is the most fertile place in Westeros, and its food surplus just got crisped.  The Riverlands are devasted from the war, Dorne doesn't grow excess crops, the North isn't very fertile and is now covered in snow, the West Lands and the Vale are mostly mountain, the Stormlands heavily forested.  Where is all this food to come from, given that Winter may last a decade?

Quote
However, I am going to be interested to see how Tycho Nestorius responds to the evidence that Dani's dragons are simply unstoppable.  Cersei's side looks a lot less promising now that she has lost a big chunk of her army and has essentially lost control over any non-fortified territory.
Yes, only 3 episodes left, things are moving so fast :)

QuoteI forgot her name, but let's call her "Former and now emprisonned Dornish de facto leader after current ruler and his heir were killed in a coup organized by her following the assassination of Cersei's daughter".
So, clearer, now? :)

Not much.  Dani would do far better to deal with whoever is in charge of Dorne now than to trade valuable hostages for someone with no official power whatsoever.  If the Dornish are so pissed at the Lannisters that they allowed a nobody to commit multiple counts of regicide without demur, they will follow whoever replaces Ellaria and will still want to ally with Dani.  Ellaria was no great help to Dani and carried a lot of baggage she's well rid of (I mean, the successors to House Martell will hardly be happy with her for slaughtering their relatives, will they?).

QuoteMight be enough to convince Jamie, doubtful he would convince Cersei, and I still doubt at this time Jamie would betray his sister. Something else should happen.

I am pretty sure that the foray beyond the Wall that we see Jon and the Brotherhood undertake in the season preview will be done to get evidence to convince Cersei and the other opponents of Dani that the threat is real, by capturing a wight.  I suspect that Jamie will be the one who suggests this.  I think Dani will declare that she believes Jon without the evidence, but that Jamie will point out that they need even those who oppose Dani to believe.  I think this will be in episode 6.

In episode 7, I think that Jon will bring his captive back to King's Landing, bur Cersei will use the opportunity to try to kill him, and this will, at long last, bring us Cleganebowl.  Maybe Cersei dies at this point, killed by either Jamie or else (though less likely) by Arya in the guise of Jamie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 10:27:11 AM
I'm no expert in the geometry of dragon breath (check the DMG??) but it seemed like where Jaime was positioned there was no earthly way to remove him from safety from fire so hot and intense that it burns targets nearly instantaneously to dust.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 10:27:11 AM
I'm no expert in the geometry of dragon breath (check the DMG??) but it seemed like where Jaime was positioned there was no earthly way to remove him from safety from fire so hot and intense that it burns targets nearly instantaneously to dust.

Same with Bron (how far can one leap carry him when the ballista get crisped?), but those are examples of things you have to accept for the sake of drama.

I don't understand why Arya was allowed to practice with Brienne with actual edged steel.  That seems a good way to both wear out real weapons and accidentally injure a person, with no benefit whatsoever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on August 07, 2017, 10:56:54 AM
Dany suffered two apparently catastrophic defeats at sea. Where did she get the ships for the Dothraki and their horses?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 07, 2017, 11:21:21 AM
I wonder why she didn't take all 3 dragons with her...  And those ballistas - I was reminded of the wind lances in The Battle of the Five Armies - I'm guessing the walls of King's Landing have more than a few mounted on them.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 11:52:42 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
What did you "figure out" by Dani going from rejecting Tyrion's advice to asking Jon for advice to then turning out to do something no one had even mentioned?  You cannot actually "figure out things" in the absence of data.  The entire "ask for advice" scene ended up being pointless without its resolution.
You can easily fill the blanks.  Jon recommends against attacking and burning a city filled with civilians, trapped in the nobles' fights.  Ergo, she is not going to attack a city.

The fleet that transported Grey Worm to Casterly rock lies at the bottom of the sea.  He has to cross on foot all of the continent to reach Dani and Missandei, with a Lannister army in nominal control of the area, at best, with people who look at the unsullied as filthy foreigners and really won't go out of their way to help them.

Dani promises Missandei that Grey Worm will be back.  It follows she has a plan:
1) attack Kings Landing, burn everything including the Queen
2) Abandon Dragonstone, march with Jon to the North, link up with his armies, march south to free Grey Worm, defend against the White Walkers together, worry about Cersei later.
3) attack the troops that just defeated the Tyrell.

#1, is what she wants to do at first, and his dismissive of Tyrion, starting to suspect him because he's a Lannister (by name, at least)
#2 would go contrary to all her instincts and would represent a severe blow to her as she leaves an ennemy army sorta of intact in the field, ready to strike at the North while they're either still in the South or busy fighting White Walkers.  Besides, Dragonstone is her birth place, even if she does not remember it, it holds sentimental value to her and it would be a huge blow to moral.
#3 is quite logical and the show leads you toward this: the column is slow, Jamie sends Bronn to motivate the harvesters, there's a slow gold convoy just leaving the Tyrell's home and the army is exhausted after a fight with the Tyrells and they likely sustained moderate casualties and still have a lot of wounded among their ranks.  You don't want to give the injured time to heal and rejoin their companies, you want them to be demoralized, at the very least.

There's enough shown on screen to realize the convoy will be attacked by Dani and her dragons.  Plus, Tyrion says they have enough ships to move the Dothrakis to Kings Landing.  That means they can move the Dothrakis and the dragons.

Although they could still have been misleading us all along, it would be very strange for all these elements to amount to nothing and having Jamie and Bronn report safely to King's Landing, gold&harvest intact while Dani was still brooding in Dragonstone.

Inaction is not really in her nature, we have seen her very patient, playing the long game, but she has a temper, and she did grow some nerves since S01E01.


Quote
Except for the one line of dialogue, that WAS very misleading.  Why, indeed, would Jamie stay with the wheat and not the vital gold?
Yeah, I'll have to rewatch it.  I do not remember that line, so if they only said "the gold is in the castle", maybe they meant Bitterbridge castle where they intended to stay the night resting and waiting for the rest of the convoy.


Quote
Sansa, Jamie, and Dani were all worried about food supplies, so I imagine food is a concern to them.  The Reach is the most fertile place in Westeros, and its food surplus just got crisped.  The Riverlands are devasted from the war, Dorne doesn't grow excess crops, the North isn't very fertile and is now covered in snow, the West Lands and the Vale are mostly mountain, the Stormlands heavily forested.  Where is all this food to come from, given that Winter may last a decade?
Sansa is concerned about the long winter, a winter that can last 10 years.  Jamie is concerned about supplies because he needs to move his army around, Dorne may be knocked out but not defeated and he wants to invade the North at some point, where forage will be low.
Dani is sitting on a rock island with no agricultural fields.

Quote
Not much.  Dani would do far better to deal with whoever is in charge of Dorne now than to trade valuable hostages for someone with no official power whatsoever.  If the Dornish are so pissed at the Lannisters that they allowed a nobody to commit multiple counts of regicide without demur, they will follow whoever replaces Ellaria and will still want to ally with Dani.  Ellaria was no great help to Dani and carried a lot of baggage she's well rid of (I mean, the successors to House Martell will hardly be happy with her for slaughtering their relatives, will they?).
The successors to House Martell could be very happy to have gained power now du to Ellaria's interference.

But they could also be tempted to declare neutrality, let everyone duke it out and then attack the Lannisters if they ain't defeated.

Quote
I am pretty sure that the foray beyond the Wall that we see Jon and the Brotherhood undertake in the season preview will be done to get evidence to convince Cersei and the other opponents of Dani that the threat is real, by capturing a wight.  I suspect that Jamie will be the one who suggests this.  I think Dani will declare that she believes Jon without the evidence, but that Jamie will point out that they need even those who oppose Dani to believe.  I think this will be in episode 6.
I have not seen the preview, but I find this a viable theory given what we know.

Quote
In episode 7, I think that Jon will bring his captive back to King's Landing, bur Cersei will use the opportunity to try to kill him, and this will, at long last, bring us Cleganebowl.  Maybe Cersei dies at this point, killed by either Jamie or else (though less likely) by Arya in the guise of Jamie.
one or the other.  Or Arya kills Cersei before that and takes her place long enough to sceal an alliance and then disapear leaving the body to be found after they are all gone.

Anything is poissible in a magical land with dragons and faceless assassins :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 01:11:03 PM
Quote from: Grallon on August 07, 2017, 11:21:21 AM
I wonder why she didn't take all 3 dragons with her...
To protect the Castle in case Euron would attempt to attack.  Virtually no army there, the possibility of leaks, she didn't want to suffer a repeat of her previous departure from her forces.

Quote
  And those ballistas - I was reminded of the wind lances in The Battle of the Five Armies - I'm guessing the walls of King's Landing have more than a few mounted on them.
Now that Dani knows about them though, she might be more careful.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 01:47:36 PM
Ok, that clears it up for me:
"All the gold's safely through the gates of King's Landing."

So it is there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 07, 2017, 01:53:29 PM
All the gold except Bronn's precious bag.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 07, 2017, 02:18:17 PM
Nobody liked my horse joke. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 03:29:57 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 11:52:42 AM
You can easily fill the blanks.  Jon recommends against attacking and burning a city filled with civilians, trapped in the nobles' fights.  Ergo, she is not going to attack a city.

The fleet that transported Grey Worm to Casterly rock lies at the bottom of the sea.  He has to cross on foot all of the continent to reach Dani and Missandei, with a Lannister army in nominal control of the area, at best, with people who look at the unsullied as filthy foreigners and really won't go out of their way to help them.

Dani promises Missandei that Grey Worm will be back.  It follows she has a plan:
1) attack Kings Landing, burn everything including the Queen
2) Abandon Dragonstone, march with Jon to the North, link up with his armies, march south to free Grey Worm, defend against the White Walkers together, worry about Cersei later.
3) attack the troops that just defeated the Tyrell.

#1, is what she wants to do at first, and his dismissive of Tyrion, starting to suspect him because he's a Lannister (by name, at least)
#2 would go contrary to all her instincts and would represent a severe blow to her as she leaves an ennemy army sorta of intact in the field, ready to strike at the North while they're either still in the South or busy fighting White Walkers.  Besides, Dragonstone is her birth place, even if she does not remember it, it holds sentimental value to her and it would be a huge blow to moral.
#3 is quite logical and the show leads you toward this: the column is slow, Jamie sends Bronn to motivate the harvesters, there's a slow gold convoy just leaving the Tyrell's home and the army is exhausted after a fight with the Tyrells and they likely sustained moderate casualties and still have a lot of wounded among their ranks.  You don't want to give the injured time to heal and rejoin their companies, you want them to be demoralized, at the very least.

These are only three of many options she could have taken.  Your imagination is much to limited, I guess, to do anything but predict what she might do except in hindsight.  Your argument that having Jon suggest the option she took would "ruin the show" is totally unsupported and silly.

What else could she have done, besides carry out the plan Jon opposed, or suddenly appear out of nowhere in the supply train battle?
(1) Have the Unsullied march back to Storm's End, or down to Highgarden (to reinforce her alliance there). 
(2) escort the Unsullied with a dragon
(3) sail her remaining fleet, accompanied by a dragon, to pick up the Unsullied at Casterly Rock.
(4) take Drogon and go negotiate with the Dornish for an attack on King's landing, just as she had planned.  The Dornish could pick up whatever Highgarden forces were left on the way.

All of these things were possible.  She asked for advice, and got almost nothing useful.  Having Jon provide useful advice would have advanced the whole plot of Dani coming to trust him.  It was a missed opportunity.

QuoteThere's enough shown on screen to realize the convoy will be attacked by Dani and her dragons.  Plus, Tyrion says they have enough ships to move the Dothrakis to Kings Landing.  That means they can move the Dothrakis and the dragons.

This is all post hoc rationalization.  Of course we know dani will attack the army when the scene shifts to the army.  They'd not have gone to the bother of showing the army just marching back to King's Landing.

QuoteAlthough they could still have been misleading us all along, it would be very strange for all these elements to amount to nothing and having Jamie and Bronn report safely to King's Landing, gold&harvest intact while Dani was still brooding in Dragonstone.

Thank you, Captain obvious!  :lol:

My point is that they could have advanced the plot very effectively, and made the attack not such a random event, had Jon suggested it back at Dragonstone.

QuoteInaction is not really in her nature, we have seen her very patient, playing the long game, but she has a temper, and she did grow some nerves since S01E01.

Duh!  :lol:

QuoteSansa is concerned about the long winter, a winter that can last 10 years.  Jamie is concerned about supplies because he needs to move his army around, Dorne may be knocked out but not defeated and he wants to invade the North at some point, where forage will be low.
Dani is sitting on a rock island with no agricultural fields.

You can't have my point!  Everyone knows that this will be a long winter.  The maesters have said so, and they sent ravens everywhere (remember the scene of hundreds of them leaving the Oldtown tower?), so everyone is concerned with food.  It made no sense for Dani to burn all that food deliberately when she could just have burned out the troops escorting it and captured all that food.

QuoteThe successors to House Martell could be very happy to have gained power now du to Ellaria's interference.

Yes, and they will still hate the Lannsters and want revenge.  They just wouldn't need to bother avenging themselves on Ellaria, because Cersei has already done that.  Ellaria would be no asset to Dani.

QuoteBut they could also be tempted to declare neutrality, let everyone duke it out and then attack the Lannisters if they ain't defeated.

If you read the books, and watch the show, and still think the Dornish are the type to just sit back and hope someone else gets their vengeance for them, all I can say is:  you are not paying attention.

QuoteI have not seen the preview, but I find this a viable theory given what we know.

You should watch that second trailer for the season (I think it was issued at ComicCon.  It has lots of clues as to what Jon is going to be up to, but doesn't really spoil anything other than the fact that he goes beyond the Wall with the Brotherhood Without Banners (or, at least, with Beric Dondarrion, Sandor Clegane, and Thoros of Myr).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 03:29:57 PM
(1) Have the Unsullied march back to Storm's End, or down to Highgarden (to reinforce her alliance there). 
Like Jaimie said in Ep#3, they are in hostile territory with no supplies.  Attempting such a march would remind of a certain templar expedition against Saladin.  Doom to failure.

Quote
(2) escort the Unsullied with a dragon
Dragons can't fly a thousand miles without resting and feeding, that's been pretty much established last season and besides they ain't invincible if she encounters an army alone, or he might just decide to take a nap and Dani would be left alone, and exposed, just like 2 seasons ago.

Quote
(3) sail her remaining fleet, accompanied by a dragon, to pick up the Unsullied at Casterly Rock.
Again, way too risky.  The ennemy controls the seas and could easily sink half the fleet before one of the dragons manages to sink a few boats.  They are strong against ships standing relatively still attacking a harbor, or disembarking troops.  If Euron attacks again at night, or in the fog, surprising them, they could sing the ship and strand Dani.

Quote
(4) take Drogon and go negotiate with the Dornish for an attack on King's landing, just as she had planned.  The Dornish could pick up whatever Highgarden forces were left on the way.
Not knowing who's in charge of the Dornish, how long this will take, and they know Dani isn't in a position of strenght anymore, despite the dragons, this result is uncertain and still leaves the Lannister gather a lot of supplies and march their army back to KL unhurt.

Quote
All of these things were possible.  She asked for advice, and got almost nothing useful.  Having Jon provide useful advice would have advanced the whole plot of Dani coming to trust him.  It was a missed opportunity.
He gave a very useful advice: be as you always were, be the Queen your people have followed so far, don't be another Mad King or a Cersei, willing to sacrifice anyone for what you think is your birthright.  Like Missandei said, they don't follow her because she's related to a foreign king they never knew.  If she stands a chance of ruling peacefully, she has to prove to everyone she's different.  Otherwise, it will be burning after burning.

Quote
This is all post hoc rationalization.  Of course we know dani will attack the army when the scene shifts to the army.  They'd not have gone to the bother of showing the army just marching back to King's Landing.
Like I said, it was pretty evident the moment we saw the convoy and the army exposed that it would be attacked.  Not exactly post hoc, I saw it as it happenned, that's all.  Not being a US president, I usually don't tweet about everything while watching tv :P

Quote
My point is that they could have advanced the plot very effectively, and made the attack not such a random event, had Jon suggested it back at Dragonstone.
again, that would be taking the viewer by the hand and spelling everything/writing it in big characters so everyone could understand without thinking. That ruins a story for me when it is done in television/cinema.

Quote
You can't have my point!  Everyone knows that this will be a long winter.  The maesters have said so, and they sent ravens everywhere (remember the scene of hundreds of them leaving the Oldtown tower?), so everyone is concerned with food.
Ah, right, I forgot that scene.

QuoteIt made no sense for Dani to burn all that food deliberately when she could just have burned out the troops escorting it and captured all that food.
Well, if there's no more Lannister to feed, you need less food... :P

Quote
Yes, and they will still hate the Lannsters and want revenge.  They just wouldn't need to bother avenging themselves on Ellaria, because Cersei has already done that.  Ellaria would be no asset to Dani.
I don't know enough of Dorne's political situation to comment.  But she might want the Greyjoy sister back, since she is a legitimate heir.

Quote
If you read the books, and watch the show, and still think the Dornish are the type to just sit back and hope someone else gets their vengeance for them, all I can say is:  you are not paying attention.
When Aegon conquered the kingdoms, they didn't rush to anyone defence. They sat out the war and waited for the Targaryans to attack - unsucessfully. They just waited it out until the Targaryans offered them an equal partnership: a marriage.

As for vengeance, twice they tried, twice they failed.  Why would they again rush to it?  They're like Will. E Coyote and get stuck on a single, unatainable target instead of trying something else?  They have shown to be patient.  They waited, what, 20 years to try to take revenge for the death of their sister?  And in the books, Doran Martell has been planning his revenge since the day his sister died and he had concluded a pact to marry one of his girls to Viscerion.  And didn't he send a nephew to offer marriage to Daenerys?

The books taught me these guys can be patient when the odds seem unsurmountable.  And again, the situation is unclear: who's ruling there?  Are they related to the Martells or where they all purged? Oberyn only had daughters and they're all dead, and none of them had kids. Whomever is left in charge maybe just doesn't care about the death of Elia Martell 20 years ago.  Althout we lack sufficient information, Dani does say she is without allies now, so it seems the Dornish can't be counted on for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 07, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
Quote from: Kleves on August 07, 2017, 10:56:54 AM
Dany suffered two apparently catastrophic defeats at sea. Where did she get the ships for the Dothraki and their horses?

Yeah, I wondered that as well. The whole battle scene was really contrived - as awesome as it was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:33:15 PM
Dani was too late to get the gold.  Therefore burning the food supplies is the next best thing.  Food can be imported and both protagonists have overseas connections but Cersei's is a bank.  She can use her gold/credit for arms and fighting men or for food but there is a guns and butter tradeoff.  We all know how Cersei will handle that tradeoff.   The Lannister mines are kaputt and you can only plunder the Tyrell treasury once.  If it looks like a Cersei victory will mean mass starvation that could effect hearts and minds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 07, 2017, 04:36:53 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:33:15 PM
Dani was too late to get the gold.  Therefore burning the food supplies is the next best thing.  Food can be imported and both protagonists have overseas connections but Cersei's is a bank.  She can use her gold/credit for arms and fighting men or for food but there is a guns and butter tradeoff.  We all know how Cersei will handle that tradeoff.   The Lannister mines are kaputt and you can only plunder the Tyrell treasury once.  If it looks like a Cersei victory will mean mass starvation that could effect hearts and minds.


She'll just play the "Daenerys is starving you poor peasants" card.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:37:21 PM
IMO no point in trying the reason logically about the Dorne plot.  The showrunners were faced with Martin's mess, got sucked into Dorne because they liked some of the characters, figured out they were in a time-sucking morass, and so arranged a hand-wavey bloodbath to bring it all to an immediate conclusion.  Dorne will play whatever role is convenient at the writers at this point, without regard to logical consistency which fled that vicinity long ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 07, 2017, 04:36:53 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:33:15 PM
Dani was too late to get the gold.  Therefore burning the food supplies is the next best thing.  Food can be imported and both protagonists have overseas connections but Cersei's is a bank.  She can use her gold/credit for arms and fighting men or for food but there is a guns and butter tradeoff.  We all know how Cersei will handle that tradeoff.   The Lannister mines are kaputt and you can only plunder the Tyrell treasury once.  If it looks like a Cersei victory will mean mass starvation that could effect hearts and minds.


She'll just play the "Daenerys is starving you poor peasants" card.

Yes but she lacks the credibility to pull it off. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 07, 2017, 04:49:50 PM
Is quiburn a poison enthusiast? A friend has the theory that the spear was poisoned. Seems intriguing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 03:52:20 PM
Like Jaimie said in Ep#3, they are in hostile territory with no supplies.  Attempting such a march would remind of a certain templar expedition against Saladin.  Doom to failure.

jamie never said that the Unsullied were in hostile territory with no supplies.  In fact, I don't recall him ever mentioning the Unsullied.

And if you think that the Reach is like the Middle-Eastern desert, you haven't been paying attention.  It is (a) allied with Danis (less some traitor houses with Randell Tarley) and (b) the most fertile land in Westeros, as has been said many  times.  And the far larger army of Dothraki didn't exactly march like the Crusaders to Hattin, in exactly that area.  So, your "doomed to failure" should read "bound to succeed."  You need to pay more attention to the show.

QuoteDragons can't fly a thousand miles without resting and feeding, that's been pretty much established last season and besides they ain't invincible if she encounters an army alone, or he might just decide to take a nap and Dani would be left alone, and exposed, just like 2 seasons ago.

The dragons crossed the sea from Slaver's Bay to Dragonstone.  I think they can fly a few hundred miles to the Westlands.

QuoteAgain, way too risky.  The ennemy controls the seas and could easily sink half the fleet before one of the dragons manages to sink a few boats.  They are strong against ships standing relatively still attacking a harbor, or disembarking troops.  If Euron attacks again at night, or in the fog, surprising them, they could sing the ship and strand Dani.

They destroy ships in moments.  Euron wouldn't even win a night battle. His ships have no defenses whatsoever against dragons, and Dani would once again control the seas.

QuoteNot knowing who's in charge of the Dornish, how long this will take, and they know Dani isn't in a position of strenght anymore, despite the dragons, this result is uncertain and still leaves the Lannister gather a lot of supplies and march their army back to KL unhurt.

None of this says that such a plan is impossible.  It surely was an option.  Not the best option, but not clearly impossible.  You claimed that your three otions were the only ones possible, and that it was easy to see that Dani could only attack Jamie's army.  I am pointing out that you lack imagination if you think that is true.
QuoteHe gave a very useful advice: be as you always were, be the Queen your people have followed so far, don't be another Mad King or a Cersei, willing to sacrifice anyone for what you think is your birthright.  Like Missandei said, they don't follow her because she's related to a foreign king they never knew.  If she stands a chance of ruling peacefully, she has to prove to everyone she's different.  Otherwise, it will be burning after burning.

He said exactly what Tyriion said, advice which she had already rejected.  It was a missed opportunity to advance the plot, and wouldn't have "wrecked the show" (as you claimed) at all.

QuoteLike I said, it was pretty evident the moment we saw the convoy and the army exposed that it would be attacked.  Not exactly post hoc, I saw it as it happenned, that's all.  Not being a US president, I usually don't tweet about everything while watching tv :P

That's pretty much the definition of post hoc!  :lol:

Quoteagain, that would be taking the viewer by the hand and spelling everything/writing it in big characters so everyone could understand without thinking. That ruins a story for me when it is done in television/cinema.

It would have disappointed you, perhaps, because of your limited imagination.  Were you pissed when Tyrion described how the Unsullied were going to take Casterly Rock?  Because that was exactly the kind of thing I am recommending the showrunners do.

For the rest of us, Jon giving sound advice that Dani took would have advanced the plot by showing Dani that Jon had good judgement, and wanted to help her cause.  A kindling romance between Danii and Jon is much more credible if she comes to respect his judgement and sheds her prejudice against him as a simple Northern barbarian.  The scene were he shows her the cave becomes more meaningful if she realizes that he is actually pretty sharp, and that his interpretations may actually have meaning. As of now, he has done precisely nothing to help her other than to back up Tyrion's advice not to attack cities with dragons (and she is fed up with Tyrion).

QuoteWell, if there's no more Lannister to feed, you need less food... :P

She never had more than one (small) Lannister to feed!  :lol:  She mentioned the need for food for her own army.

QuoteI don't know enough of Dorne's political situation to comment.  But she might want the Greyjoy sister back, since she is a legitimate heir.

The leadership of the Iron Islands is settled by vote, not inheritance.  I am sure Dani would like to see Yara Greyjoy freed, but see no chance she would trade Jamie for her.

QuoteWhen Aegon conquered the kingdoms, they didn't rush to anyone defence. They sat out the war and waited for the Targaryans to attack - unsucessfully. They just waited it out until the Targaryans offered them an equal partnership: a marriage.

Stricken as non-responsive.  The Dornish situation as an independent nation at the time of Conquest is totally unrelated to their situation in the present war against the Lannisters.

QuoteAs for vengeance, twice they tried, twice they failed.  Why would they again rush to it?  They're like Will. E Coyote and get stuck on a single, unatainable target instead of trying something else?  They have shown to be patient.  They waited, what, 20 years to try to take revenge for the death of their sister?  And in the books, Doran Martell has been planning his revenge since the day his sister died and he had concluded a pact to marry one of his girls to Viscerion.  And didn't he send a nephew to offer marriage to Daenerys?

The "they" that spent 20 years patiently plotting for revenge for the death of Ilya martell are dead, killed by the Sand Snakes.  The Sand Snakes supposedly had the support of the people, because they were not going to wait to take revenge, but rather get their revenge now. Haven't you been paying attention at all?

QuoteThe books taught me these guys can be patient when the odds seem unsurmountable.  And again, the situation is unclear: who's ruling there?  Are they related to the Martells or where they all purged? Oberyn only had daughters and they're all dead, and none of them had kids. Whomever is left in charge maybe just doesn't care about the death of Elia Martell 20 years ago.  Althout we lack sufficient information, Dani does say she is without allies now, so it seems the Dornish can't be counted on for the foreseeable future.

More evidence that you just haven't been paying attention.  There's always an heir.  Even if they have to go back a few generations to find the heir, they will.  Check out how Henri IV of France was related to his predecessor, Henri III:  they were only connected via Louis IX, fourteen generations earlier!  it is, of course, easier in Dorne where woman can inherit.

It is true that Dani has no immediate allies, as those individuals who have directly allied with her are dead.  The heirs of those people have exactly the same basic motives to ally with her as Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell, though, perhaps, without their passion (but with the new motive of wanting to avenge Ellaria and Olenna).  Dani could spend time recruiting those heirs.  She didn't, but it is unimaginative in the extreme to not even think of that as an option.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 07, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
Quote from: Kleves on August 07, 2017, 10:56:54 AM
Dany suffered two apparently catastrophic defeats at sea. Where did she get the ships for the Dothraki and their horses?

Yeah, I wondered that as well. The whole battle scene was really contrived - as awesome as it was.

She had enough ships to convey the Dthraki and Unsullied even before she got the Ironborn reinforcements.  She sent those ships necessary to convey the troops she wanted moved, and kept the rest to use with her remaining army.  Dunno why that would seem contrived, given that no one* knew about the new ironborn fleet.

*except presumably Varys, and he's probably a traitor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 06:41:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:33:15 PM
Dani was too late to get the gold.  Therefore burning the food supplies is the next best thing.  Food can be imported and both protagonists have overseas connections but Cersei's is a bank.  She can use her gold/credit for arms and fighting men or for food but there is a guns and butter tradeoff.  We all know how Cersei will handle that tradeoff.   The Lannister mines are kaputt and you can only plunder the Tyrell treasury once.  If it looks like a Cersei victory will mean mass starvation that could effect hearts and minds.

But dani could have simply captured all that food.  That would have kept it out of the hands of the Lannisters and helped her at the same time.  She doesn't have the financial resources to but food overseas that Cersei does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 06:44:17 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 07, 2017, 04:37:21 PM
IMO no point in trying the reason logically about the Dorne plot.  The showrunners were faced with Martin's mess, got sucked into Dorne because they liked some of the characters, figured out they were in a time-sucking morass, and so arranged a hand-wavey bloodbath to bring it all to an immediate conclusion.  Dorne will play whatever role is convenient at the writers at this point, without regard to logical consistency which fled that vicinity long ago.

Agreed.  I doubt that we will see another Dornishman for the rest of the season (the actress who played Ellaria has already said she has no more scenes).  Dorne was a mess, but it was worth it to see Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 07, 2017, 04:49:50 PM
Is quiburn a poison enthusiast? A friend has the theory that the spear was poisoned. Seems intriguing.

Bron did not seem to be particularly careful handling the bolts for the ballista, as he would be if they were poisoned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on August 07, 2017, 07:26:23 PM
The spear wasn't poisoned. One of her three dragons will die by the end of the season though. Varys isn't a traitor, this season at least. And...

#Boatsexiscoming
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 08:47:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
jamie never said that the Unsullied were in hostile territory with no supplies.  In fact, I don't recall him ever mentioning the Unsullied.
Yes, when he spoke to lady Tyrell.

Quote
And if you think that the Reach is like the Middle-Eastern desert, you haven't been paying attention.  It is (a) allied with Danis (less some traitor houses with Randell Tarley) and (b) the most fertile land in Westeros, as has been said many  times.  And the far larger army of Dothraki didn't exactly march like the Crusaders to Hattin, in exactly that area.  So, your "doomed to failure" should read "bound to succeed."  You need to pay more attention to the show.
The Dothraki are like the Mongols.  The Unsullied are heavily armed infantry walking slowly.  They are a forced to be reckoned, but they would be vulnerable to hit&run tacticts by a small cavalry bands or a few archers and a few infantry in key spots along the way.

Quote
The dragons crossed the sea from Slaver's Bay to Dragonstone.  I think they can fly a few hundred miles to the Westlands.
They rested on the ships from time to time.  Drogo was injured, but he did stop after a while to rest, stranding Dani.

Quote
They destroy ships in moments.  Euron wouldn't even win a night battle. His ships have no defenses whatsoever against dragons, and Dani would once again control the seas.
He doesn't need to win, he needs to destroy the ships where Dani is and the war is over.  Do you think the Dothraki will follow Tyrion?

Quote
None of this says that such a plan is impossible.  It surely was an option.  Not the best option, but not clearly impossible.  You claimed that your three otions were the only ones possible, and that it was easy to see that Dani could only attack Jamie's army.  I am pointing out that you lack imagination if you think that is true.
It's impossible if you think like a general: you don't want to leave a well supplied army in the open, you want to destroy it.  It's either attack them on the road, or attack them once they're in King's Landing.  The second plans implies heavier casualties on both sides but would probably win the war, yet Dani is reluctant, as per the advice of Jon, to be perceived as "like the others".  You raise people telling them all their life they're special, they tend to think so ;)

Quote
He said exactly what Tyriion said, advice which she had already rejected.  It was a missed opportunity to advance the plot, and wouldn't have "wrecked the show" (as you claimed) at all.
It was rejected because it came from Tyrion.  You said it yourself: there is likely a traitor in her ranks.  She is starting to realize this: either someone is spying for Cersei in her ranks (or her allies ranks) or she has a very keen sense of strategy and is able to guess precisely their movement and when they make their move.  I guess it could be possible the Ironborne being very gifted sailor have some kind of fast spy ship observing the movements of the Targaryan fleet and reporting it to Euron, too.

But still, the logical explanation at this point is, she is being betrayed.  Tyrion is a Lannister, she doesn't really know him, and so far, as ruler of Mereen in her absence, he didn't fare so well.  She suspects he still serves his family.  She may not have thought it through as it seems it was more in anger than after a careful analysis, but that explains why she rejects his idea but acknowledge Jon Snow's suggestion, that happens to be the same.  yet, she does not want to sit idle in her Castle, that's not in her nature.  Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that she's going to attack the convoy.  Add that Tyrion said they had enough ships to move the Dothraki, and it becomes a foregone conclusion that a detachment of Dothrakis and at least one dragon are going to ambush the convoy.

Quote
That's pretty much the definition of post hoc!  :lol:
Well, unfortunately, I can not guess what happens before I see events leading to it.  But as I said, it was a foregone conclusion that she would attack the convoy.

Quote
when Tyrion described how the Unsullied were going to take Casterly Rock?  Because that was exactly the kind of thing I am recommending the showrunners do.
That's totally not the same.  You can not guess there is a secret entrance to Casterly Rock, since we've never seen the place.  And this particular plot revolves around knowing the secret passage.  I did not expect the castle to be valmost empty though, I really thought this was to be a real, big victory for Daenerys.

Quote
her prejudice against him as a simple Northern barbarian.
She does not see him as a simple Northern Barbarian.  But all her life, she has been told her family was great, her brother was the greatest, daddy was a wonderful king and some bastards uprooted him from his legitimate throne.  To her, Jon Snow is a simple rebel that needs to be brought back into the fold.  She does not consider him stupid or barbarian, but she considers him her subject and she expects fealty, just like that, because that's how she's been raised. 

Quote
As of now, he has done precisely nothing to help her other than to back up Tyrion's advice not to attack cities with dragons (and she is fed up with Tyrion).
Wich shows that he is even tempered, the ice to her fire...

Quote
She never had more than one (small) Lannister to feed!  :lol:  She mentioned the need for food for her own army.
As I said, I had forgotten that everyone knew of the Winter and that it was coming for all of Westeros, not just the North, I was trying to make a graceful exit, thank you :P

Quote
The leadership of the Iron Islands is settled by vote, not inheritance.  I am sure Dani would like to see Yara Greyjoy freed, but see no chance she would trade Jamie for her.
ah, well, they're pretty much fucked then, unless Theon can find a way to convince her.  We'll see.

Quote
Stricken as non-responsive.  The Dornish situation as an independent nation at the time of Conquest is totally unrelated to their situation in the present war against the Lannisters.
It is: they still tell themselves these stories how they never surrended to the Great Aegon the Conquerer and his dragons.

Quote
The "they" that spent 20 years patiently plotting for revenge for the death of Ilya martell are dead, killed by the Sand Snakes.  The Sand Snakes supposedly had the support of the people, because they were not going to wait to take revenge, but rather get their revenge now. Haven't you been paying attention at all?
We have see no indication they truly have support of the people.  That is what they said, and they may believe it, but it does not mean it is true.  Didn't Viscerion tought the people of Westeros would welcome him with open arms once he landed there with an army to reconquer his throne from the usurper?  That wasn't exactly the mindset of the people there...

Quote
More evidence that you just haven't been paying attention.  There's always an heir.  Even if they have to go back a few generations to find the heir, they will.  Check out how Henri IV of France was related to his predecessor, Henri III:  they were only connected via Louis IX, fourteen generations earlier!  it is, of course, easier in Dorne where woman can inherit.
And look at the history of England, with multiple heirs to the Throne... for all we know, it could be civil war over there.

Quote
The heirs of those people have exactly the same basic motives to ally with her as Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell, though, perhaps, without their passion (but with the new motive of wanting to avenge Ellaria and Olenna).  Dani could spend time recruiting those heirs.  She didn't, but it is unimaginative in the extreme to not even think of that as an option.
She does not have time, the Lannister army is on the move.  If they reach King's Landing, they have a full army with all their supplies and they are unlikely to surrender.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 09:21:13 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 07, 2017, 08:47:29 PM
Yes, when he spoke to lady Tyrell.

You could be more obscure, but I doubt it.

QuoteThe Dothraki are like the Mongols.  The Unsullied are heavily armed infantry walking slowly.  They are a forced to be reckoned, but they would be vulnerable to hit&run tacticts by a small cavalry bands or a few archers and a few infantry in key spots along the way.

So?  The Lannisters have almost no cvalry (we have seen their army all spread out before us) and infantry would be meat to the Unsullied grinder.  You still haven't addressed your argument that moving through the reach would be like the Crusaders moving through the desert to Hattin.

QuoteThey rested on the ships from time to time.  Drogo was injured, but he did stop after a while to rest, stranding Dani.

When did you see them resting on ships?  How often did they do this in the 3,000 mile or so voyage?  Drogo was, I believe, Bilbo's father.

QuoteHe doesn't need to win, he needs to destroy the ships where Dani is and the war is over.  Do you think the Dothraki will follow Tyrion?

he is not going to die and have his fleet annihilated to attack a ship that may or may not have Dani in it, and is full of Dothraki bodyguards anyway.  There is NO WAY Euron is attacking a fleet supported by dragons.  No.  Way.

QuoteIt's impossible if you think like a general: you don't want to leave a well supplied army in the open, you want to destroy it.  It's either attack them on the road, or attack them once they're in King's Landing.  The second plans implies heavier casualties on both sides but would probably win the war, yet Dani is reluctant, as per the advice of Jon, to be perceived as "like the others".  You raise people telling them all their life they're special, they tend to think so ;)

There is no evidence, before she attacked it, that Dani even know there was an army to be attacked.  She went from "well, advisers, what should I do?" to attacking Jamie's army with no transition whatsoever.  She never mentioned attacking jamie's army in her discussions on Dragonstone.  That's exactly the poit I am making - it was a missed opportunity, and a plot hole.

QuoteIt was rejected because it came from Tyrion.  You said it yourself: there is likely a traitor in her ranks.  She is starting to realize this: either someone is spying for Cersei in her ranks (or her allies ranks) or she has a very keen sense of strategy and is able to guess precisely their movement and when they make their move.  I guess it could be possible the Ironborne being very gifted sailor have some kind of fast spy ship observing the movements of the Targaryan fleet and reporting it to Euron, too.

There is no evidence that she is rejecting Tyrion's advice because she thinks he is a traitor.  She says why she rejects it:  because the status quo has her losing the war, and Tyrion is arguing for the status quo.  Making up reasons to suit your own arguments does not fly.  And it doesn't matter anyway, because my point has zero to do with what Tyrion said and everything to do with what Jon did not say, but should have (to advance the plot and fill the plot hole).



QuoteWell, unfortunately, I can not guess what happens before I see events leading to it.  But as I said, it was a foregone conclusion that she would attack the convoy.
That's pretty much the definition of post hoc!  :lol:

QuoteThat's totally not the same.  You can not guess there is a secret entrance to Casterly Rock, since we've never seen the place.  And this particular plot revolves around knowing the secret passage.  I did not expect the castle to be valmost empty though, I really thought this was to be a real, big victory for Daenerys.

You can't have it both ways:  if there is a reason to show why the Unsullied succeeded at Casterly Rock, there is a reason to show why Danaerys attacked Jamie's army.  Whining that one is necesary but the other would "ruin the show" isn't logically consistent.

QuoteShe does not see him as a simple Northern Barbarian.  But all her life, she has been told her family was great, her brother was the greatest, daddy was a wonderful king and some bastards uprooted him from his legitimate throne.  To her, Jon Snow is a simple rebel that needs to be brought back into the fold.  She does not consider him stupid or barbarian, but she considers him her subject and she expects fealty, just like that, because that's how she's been raised. 

Of course she sees him as a simple Northern barbarian at first.  That is evident in all of her speech with him in their first meeting.  She expects him to bend the knee because she expects all northerners to bend the knee as the simple barbarians they are.

QuoteWich shows that he is even tempered, the ice to her fire...

Which would make a dispassionate argument to use her dragons against field armies rather than cities even more even-tempered and wise.  Lost opportunity.

Quoteah, well, they're pretty much fucked then, unless Theon can find a way to convince her.  We'll see.

Theon is going to grow some balls and try to rescue her.  50-50 he dies in the attempt.

QuoteIt is: they still tell themselves these stories how they never surrended to the Great Aegon the Conquerer and his dragons.

Stricken as non-responsive.  The Dornish situation as an independent nation at the time of Conquest is totally unrelated to their situation in the present war against the Lannisters.

QuoteWe have see no indication they truly have support of the people.  That is what they said, and they may believe it, but it does not mean it is true.  Didn't Viscerion tought the people of Westeros would welcome him with open arms once he landed there with an army to reconquer his throne from the usurper?  That wasn't exactly the mindset of the people there...

Sure we have evidence that the Dornish supported them:  they were still alive to get killed or captured, after killing their king and crown prince, and they could promise a Dornish army to besiege King's Landing.  It's bullshit that this would happen like this, but there we are.

The king's bodyguard stood by while the king and his captain of guards were assassinated.  How much more plain can it get? Or weren't you paying attention?

QuoteAnd look at the history of England, with multiple heirs to the Throne... for all we know, it could be civil war over there.

Less likely when women can inherit, but, indeed, there could be civil war there.  There could be civil war anywhere in Westeros, and we just don't know it.  So what?

QuoteShe does not have time, the Lannister army is on the move.  If they reach King's Landing, they have a full army with all their supplies and they are unlikely to surrender.

She has time to any number of things, including attacking Jamie's army.  Attacking his army was the right thing to do, but it wasn't the only possible thing to do, as you are arguing.  My point is simply that having Jon recommend that course of action would advance the plot and fill in a plot hole.  Your argument is that having Jon recommend that course of action would "wreck the show."

I think my argument more persuasive than yours.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 08, 2017, 01:39:20 AM
Bitch on a dragon.
Awesome.

Though.... The way she went about burning food like that.... I couldn't help but say oh no. That is really going to cost people dear come winter.
And she did it deliberately. She was targeting the food.
Yet another sign of Dany the villain.

Alas to finish GOT properly is going to take more than a single series with this path. I guess it means there'll be some sort of deus ex machina winter cancellation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Isn't the whole point of using Dothraki that they can move quickly through hostile territory?  How are they supposed to get huge lumbering carts of grain back to Dragonstone?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 08, 2017, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Isn't the whole point of using Dothraki that they can move quickly through hostile territory?  How are they supposed to get huge lumbering carts of grain back to Dragonstone?

They're only a few miles from the sea.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2017, 02:00:38 AM
I think they torched the wagons because it looked cool, not to advance any plot point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 07:53:23 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 07, 2017, 09:21:13 PM
You could be more obscure, but I doubt it.
When he reaches Lady Tyrell's tower, right after the fight, they discuss how Casterly Rock was abandonned, and he says the Unsullied will hold the castle for a time, but then they'll have to leave and they will be forced to march all the way back since they have no fleet, and he implies they will be attacked while on the move.

Quote
So?  The Lannisters have almost no cvalry (we have seen their army all spread out before us) and infantry would be meat to the Unsullied grinder.  You still haven't addressed your argument that moving through the reach would be like the Crusaders moving through the desert to Hattin.
They may not have cavalry, but some of their allies may.  They had cavalry before, IIRC.

Quote
When did you see them resting on ships?  How often did they do this in the 3,000 mile or so voyage?  Drogo was, I believe, Bilbo's father.
Drogon, right.  Those names.
they have a body similar to bats, bats can't fly long distance like migrating birds.

Quote
he is not going to die and have his fleet annihilated to attack a ship that may or may not have Dani in it, and is full of Dothraki bodyguards anyway.  There is NO WAY Euron is attacking a fleet supported by dragons.  No.  Way.
He may not do it himself, he may send a few ships of his massive fleet.

Quote
There is no evidence, before she attacked it, that Dani even know there was an army to be attacked. 
Varys brings her the news House Tyrell has fallen.  If they know that, they know an army is on the march, back from Highgarden.

Quote
There is no evidence that she is rejecting Tyrion's advice because she thinks he is a traitor.
Now, who's not paying attention? :)
She says something along the lines of "Your family, you mean"
It's clear she is beginning to suspect him, at least when angry.



Quote
That's pretty much the definition of post hoc!  :lol:
No.  Post hoc, is, upon seeing the battle, I declare "ah, that is where all that was leading us".  Making an assumption based on facts presented, like the change in music and lightning in an horror movie, or seeing two teenagers having sex in a Friday the 13th movie, that's guessing what will happen next based on facts presented to you ;)

Quote
You can't have it both ways:  if there is a reason to show why the Unsullied succeeded at Casterly Rock, there is a reason to show why Danaerys attacked Jamie's army.  Whining that one is necesary but the other would "ruin the show" isn't logically consistent.
We can guess about the reason to attack Jamie because we see it over the course of two episodes and people talk about it.  We have never seen Casterly Rock before, all we heard is, it's a strong fortress.  Had we seen an episode where Tyrion escapes the fortress by using a secret passage in the sewers, then I would agree with you that Tyrion telling us again about the secret passage would be juste like the scene you want, logically inconsistent and would have ruined the show too.

Quote
Of course she sees him as a simple Northern barbarian at first.
Ok, maybe in a way, but not any more barbarian than the Dornish or the Tyrells: once they have sworn loyalty, they are not "simple barbarians".  She just sees Snow as someone who should recognize his authority like everyone else.  It's not that thinks he's a simple barbarian so much as everyone who doesn't swear fealty is in rebellion against her. 

Quote
Which would make a dispassionate argument to use her dragons against field armies rather than cities even more even-tempered and wise.  Lost opportunity.
He doesn't need to spell it out, it is heavily implied by everything we see.

Quote
Stricken as non-responsive.  The Dornish situation as an independent nation at the time of Conquest is totally unrelated to their situation in the present war against the Lannisters.
It's the mindset of a people who have seen other would be conquerors.

Quote
Sure we have evidence that the Dornish supported them:  they were still alive to get killed or captured, after killing their king and crown prince, and they could promise a Dornish army to besiege King's Landing.  It's bullshit that this would happen like this, but there we are.
There's a difference between what the people think and what the noble think.  The people are possibly impervious to such fights.  As we have seen a little more to the North, the people are getting fed up and start thinking all sides are the same.

Quote
The king's bodyguard stood by while the king and his captain of guards were assassinated.  How much more plain can it get? Or weren't you paying attention?
That's an handful of soldiers.

Quote
I think my argument more persuasive than yours.
my, my, what a surprise! :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 07:59:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 01:39:20 AM
Alas to finish GOT properly is going to take more than a single series with this path. I guess it means there'll be some sort of deus ex machina winter cancellation.
come to think of it... Winter seems tied to White Walkers.  The Long Night and all that.  The more numerous the White Walkers are, the longer the Winter. Once defeated, the winter could be much less harscher.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 08:36:58 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2017, 02:00:38 AM
I think they torched the wagons because it looked cool, not to advance any plot point.

Precisely.  That had someone do something dumb, like spar with edged weapons or burn up supply trains, for the visuals.  It's the medium.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 08, 2017, 09:13:03 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 07:59:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 01:39:20 AM
Alas to finish GOT properly is going to take more than a single series with this path. I guess it means there'll be some sort of deus ex machina winter cancellation.
come to think of it... Winter seems tied to White Walkers.  The Long Night and all that.  The more numerous the White Walkers are, the longer the Winter. Once defeated, the winter could be much less harscher.

Definitely.
GRRM is on record saying it's magical rather than scientific. And that north of the wall suddenly gets so much colder...
Plus pretty sure it doesn't happen in Essos.

I hope they don't take the easy route of killing the others. Really hoping my idea about  the others being misunderstood in some way and a peace treaty being reached works out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Isn't the whole point of using Dothraki that they can move quickly through hostile territory?  How are they supposed to get huge lumbering carts of grain back to Dragonstone?

They're only a few miles from the sea.

???

I'm confused about geography then I thought they were somewhere in the middle of Highgarden and King's Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 08, 2017, 10:06:01 AM
QuoteMore evidence that you just haven't been paying attention.  There's always an heir.  Even if they have to go back a few generations to find the heir, they will.  Check out how Henri IV of France was related to his predecessor, Henri III:  they were only connected via Louis IX, fourteen generations earlier!  it is, of course, easier in Dorne where woman can inherit.

It is true that Dani has no immediate allies, as those individuals who have directly allied with her are dead.  The heirs of those people have exactly the same basic motives to ally with her as Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell, though, perhaps, without their passion (but with the new motive of wanting to avenge Ellaria and Olenna).  Dani could spend time recruiting those heirs.  She didn't, but it is unimaginative in the extreme to not even think of that as an option.

We'll see.
Certainly in the books I can recall it often being said that Sansa is the last Stark and all.
It's a problem that I've long had with the series, I believe I mentioned it earlier in the thread, that except for the Lannisport Lannisters and the Karstarks you never hear anything of Cadet branches, the Lannisters are utter freaks from the fact that there is an uncle and cousins.
Even with the Freys you don't hear of anything beyond Walder's descendants.
About the only time I can remember complicated and realistic family stuff happening is in  the Vale with Harry the Heir (removed from the series).
Would be nice if they handle it in a realistic "Here is third cousin twice removed Geoff Tyrell" but more likely we'll see a completely unrelated named character getting The Reach, if anyone.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Isn't the whole point of using Dothraki that they can move quickly through hostile territory?  How are they supposed to get huge lumbering carts of grain back to Dragonstone?

They're only a few miles from the sea.

???

I'm confused about geography then I thought they were somewhere in the middle of Highgarden and King's Landing.


They spoke about having just shipped the gold and they were waiting for  the ships to come back to get the food across Blackwater Bay, so I got the impression they were just over the river from King's Landing. Certainly somewhere by the coast.
https://quartermaester.info/

No definite proof one way or the other of course but thats the impression I get.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 08, 2017, 10:18:42 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Isn't the whole point of using Dothraki that they can move quickly through hostile territory?  How are they supposed to get huge lumbering carts of grain back to Dragonstone?

They're only a few miles from the sea.

???

I'm confused about geography then I thought they were somewhere in the middle of Highgarden and King's Landing.

The episode begins just as they leave Highgarden, but the battle is already close to King's Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 10:37:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 10:06:01 AM
We'll see.
Certainly in the books I can recall it often being said that Sansa is the last Stark and all.
It's a problem that I've long had with the series, I believe I mentioned it earlier in the thread, that except for the Lannisport Lannisters and the Karstarks you never hear anything of Cadet branches, the Lannisters are utter freaks from the fact that there is an uncle and cousins.
Even with the Freys you don't hear of anything beyond Walder's descendants.
About the only time I can remember complicated and realistic family stuff happening is in  the Vale with Harry the Heir (removed from the series).
Would be nice if they handle it in a realistic "Here is third cousin twice removed Geoff Tyrell" but more likely we'll see a completely unrelated named character getting The Reach, if anyone.

You won't hear of such relatives unless they are important to the story.  The show has already cast the new head of House Frey, so clearly there were relatives of Walder not present when Arya poisoned the wine.   I don't think it fair to criticize the show for not showing "complicated and realistic family stuff" that isn't related to the plot or character development.  The show doesn't have the luxury of throwaway moments when each minute of show costs over $100,000 to produce.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 10:56:23 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 08, 2017, 10:18:42 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 01:59:03 AM
Isn't the whole point of using Dothraki that they can move quickly through hostile territory?  How are they supposed to get huge lumbering carts of grain back to Dragonstone?

They're only a few miles from the sea.
???

I'm confused about geography then I thought they were somewhere in the middle of Highgarden and King's Landing.

The episode begins just as they leave Highgarden, but the battle is already close to King's Landing.

Based on what we saw in the show, they are near Bitterbridge, far from the sea.  The land is pretty arid, which seems to be true of the portions of the Reach east of the Mander River.  At the same time, they are on a road near a river, which is true of the main road from Highgarden to King's Landing only near Bitterbridge (where the highway crossed the Mander).  It is possible that the water we see is some lake not on the maps, but it certainly isn't near King's Landing, because that highway passed through about 100 miles of forest (the Kingswood) before it gets to King's Landing.

The idea that the Dothraki cannot escort a convoy to some port friendly to Danyris seems odd to me.  The fact that the Dothraki can move fast does not seem to me to imply that they cannot move slowly.  After all, they are a nomadic people.  Surely they have baggage trains in their own lands, just like horse nomads in the history of actual Earth.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 11:37:07 AM
Highgarden to King's Landing is 760 miles according to some internet nerd.  Assume for the sake of argument there they were more than halfway there - about 300 miles from the coast (and likely more since it would have to be a friendly port some distance from KL).  Mongols could cover 100 miles a day - that's 3 days to the coast if not weighed down by an elaborate baggage train.  But heavy carts could probably cover no more than 25 miles per day - that's 12 days.  A significant difference given that the Dothraki are Dani's only available military force at this point - lacking any allies and with her infantry many miles away.  Consider for example who or what is defending Dragonstone at a time when the Cersei-Euron alliance controls the sea . . .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 08, 2017, 11:40:05 AM
In the episode it was said that they were within a day's march of KL.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 11:44:54 AM
Ok - where's the nearest safe port for Dani then?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 08, 2017, 12:05:10 PM
Plotport is just a transition away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 08, 2017, 12:28:01 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 10:37:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 10:06:01 AM
We'll see.
Certainly in the books I can recall it often being said that Sansa is the last Stark and all.
It's a problem that I've long had with the series, I believe I mentioned it earlier in the thread, that except for the Lannisport Lannisters and the Karstarks you never hear anything of Cadet branches, the Lannisters are utter freaks from the fact that there is an uncle and cousins.
Even with the Freys you don't hear of anything beyond Walder's descendants.
About the only time I can remember complicated and realistic family stuff happening is in  the Vale with Harry the Heir (removed from the series).
Would be nice if they handle it in a realistic "Here is third cousin twice removed Geoff Tyrell" but more likely we'll see a completely unrelated named character getting The Reach, if anyone.

You won't hear of such relatives unless they are important to the story.  The show has already cast the new head of House Frey, so clearly there were relatives of Walder not present when Arya poisoned the wine.   I don't think it fair to criticize the show for not showing "complicated and realistic family stuff" that isn't related to the plot or character development.  The show doesn't have the luxury of throwaway moments when each minute of show costs over $100,000 to produce.
The books however have no such excuse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 08, 2017, 12:05:10 PM
Plotport is just a transition away.

Right
The bigger issue is that the entire strategy makes no sense.  The most "humane" way to fight a war is end it fast and quick if you can.  That means go straight to King's Landing.  That doesn't work with the story though.  But the idea that attacking King's Landing would turn Westerosis away from her is pretty silly.  Aegon was a foreign invader who used dragons to burn castles, and that was not obstacle to establishing a centuries-long dynasty.  Danaerys' opponent just blew up the cathedral and took down a couple city wards and then allied herself to a crazed notorious pirate, that didn't stop an old school lord like Tarly from sticking by the rather tarnished crown.  Once Cersei fell the lords would come in line pretty quick.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 01:08:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 08:36:58 AM
That had someone do something dumb, like spar with edged weapons or burn up supply trains, for the visuals. 
I don't think it was strictly for visuals.  Arya wanted everyone to know she could take care of herself, she wasn't just that little girl who left King's Landing hiding from everyone 6 years ago.  What better way than the spar with real weapons against one of the toughest sword bearer of Westeros?  Practice swords would not have made the point.  This did.  You don't mess with Aria Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 08, 2017, 12:05:10 PM
Plotport is just a transition away.

Right
The bigger issue is that the entire strategy makes no sense.  The most "humane" way to fight a war is end it fast and quick if you can.  That means go straight to King's Landing.  That doesn't work with the story though.  But the idea that attacking King's Landing would turn Westerosis away from her is pretty silly.  Aegon was a foreign invader who used dragons to burn castles, and that was not obstacle to establishing a centuries-long dynasty.  Danaerys' opponent just blew up the cathedral and took down a couple city wards and then allied herself to a crazed notorious pirate, that didn't stop an old school lord like Tarly from sticking by the rather tarnished crown.  Once Cersei fell the lords would come in line pretty quick.

Aegon had to burn a lot of people and he had a massive army at his back.  Dani's force are considerably smaller, judging by what we know.  He had 2 sisters, each riding a dragon.  He was already lord of Dragonstone and had a foothold on the continent.  He didn't have a murderous father who triggered a rebellion by burning people 20 odd years before...  Also, it wasn't a united kingdom back them it was 7 independant kingdoms, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 08, 2017, 02:42:42 PM
FYI guys, it's a made-up world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 08, 2017, 02:48:54 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2017, 12:28:01 PM
The books however have no such excuse.

There are plenty of side-branches mentioned in the books as well. I think you're just forgetting about them. The Tyrells have two sons that didn't make it into the show. The Lannisters have a not insignificant amount of "other" Lannisters that aren't in the main line. The lines that are really lacking are the Arryns (but that's because of Jon marrying Lysa, and they still have Harry as you mentioned), and the Baratheons. The lack of extra Starks can be explained by the seeming tradition of Stark extra sons joining the Night's Watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 08, 2017, 03:23:53 PM
So, ideas on how and when Littlefinger gets fucked?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 08, 2017, 03:24:22 PM
Probably by Arya's new dagger near the end of this season or middle of next. Bran seems like he might spill the beans to his sisters about Littlefinger's betrayals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 03:29:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 08, 2017, 02:42:42 PM
FYI guys, it's a made-up world.
that's no excuse!  So are Star Trek and Star Wars, yet people are really fighting over that!  C'mon Languish!  We can do better than those nerds!    :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 08, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
Jaime's Worst Fear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RET4E58u51I)

Excellent point actually. Jaime sacrificed his honor to kill a mad king who wanted to burn everyone, and now he faced that king's daughter who burned everyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 01:08:19 PM
I don't think it was strictly for visuals.  Arya wanted everyone to know she could take care of herself, she wasn't just that little girl who left King's Landing hiding from everyone 6 years ago.  What better way than the spar with real weapons against one of the toughest sword bearer of Westeros?  Practice swords would not have made the point.  This did.  You don't mess with Aria Arya.

You don't train with edged weapons because (1) it damages the weapons, and (2) it runs a very serious risk of someone getting hurt.  Blunting her epee (or whatever that is) with a small wooden ball, or using a blunt one if available, like the real people do it in the real world, would not have changed the impact of her demonstration at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on August 08, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
Jaime's Worst Fear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RET4E58u51I)

Excellent point actually. Jaime sacrificed his honor to kill a mad king who wanted to burn everyone, and now he faced that king's daughter who burned everyone.

yeah Jamie's a pretty decent guy.  When he's not throwing little kids out windows to hide his incestuous adultery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on August 08, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
Jaime's Worst Fear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RET4E58u51I)

Excellent point actually. Jaime sacrificed his honor to kill a mad king who wanted to burn everyone, and now he faced that king's daughter who burned everyone.

After leaving his sister who burned everyone.

I'm betting Euron burns somebody.  We know Jon wants to burn everyone, and he will get at least some of that wish fulfilled next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 05:30:03 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 08, 2017, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on August 08, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
Jaime's Worst Fear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RET4E58u51I)

Excellent point actually. Jaime sacrificed his honor to kill a mad king who wanted to burn everyone, and now he faced that king's daughter who burned everyone.

yeah Jamie's a pretty decent guy.  When he's not throwing little kids out windows to hide his incestuous adultery.

Or threatening to throw an infant over the walls of Riverun as soon as it is born.  He's a sweetheart, except when it comes to the defenseless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 08, 2017, 05:46:17 PM
(https://media0dk-a.akamaihd.net/36/93/65d06331828d0d2ed2c06cf609f0edab.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 08, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
 :lmfao:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 09, 2017, 03:03:19 AM
More suggestions of evil dany.
"did Ed sheeran die" :lol:

http://www.nme.com/news/tv/ed-sheeran-character-die-game-of-thrones-2122339
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 09, 2017, 07:01:31 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 09, 2017, 03:03:19 AM
More suggestions of evil dany.
"did Ed sheeran die" :lol:

http://www.nme.com/news/tv/ed-sheeran-character-die-game-of-thrones-2122339

Quote...the Lannister army were desecrated at the hands of Daenerys and her dragons.

Timmay is writing for nme.com now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 09, 2017, 01:20:20 PM
I've rewatched the Bron-saves-Jamie sequence.  It seems plausible to could escape the dragon's fire relative unsacathed since they jumped into water almost immediatly while they were at the edges of the flames.  The water would have extinguished any fire left over the arms or legs.  They should still have minor burns though.  Had there been no water, they would have been well done.

For nitpickers, what is left to argue, is how fast can Bron get back to Jaimie and could he really achieve sufficient momentum to really clear both of them out of the fire's way
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 10, 2017, 07:38:06 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 08, 2017, 01:08:19 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 08, 2017, 08:36:58 AM
That had someone do something dumb, like spar with edged weapons or burn up supply trains, for the visuals. 
I don't think it was strictly for visuals.  Arya wanted everyone to know she could take care of herself, she wasn't just that little girl who left King's Landing hiding from everyone 6 years ago.  What better way than the spar with real weapons against one of the toughest sword bearer of Westeros?  Practice swords would not have made the point.  This did.  You don't mess with Aria Arya.

I think the issue is likely more that they would not have a suitable practice sword anyway. Arya uses a small foil, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on August 10, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
I still think it's not Bron who pushes Jaime.

It's Billy Bones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 11, 2017, 08:17:05 AM
I'm assuming that Bron and Jamie fall in the river so they aren't captured.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 11, 2017, 08:28:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 11, 2017, 08:17:05 AM
I'm assuming that Bron and Jamie fall in the river so they aren't captured.

Bronn will get captured so that there is a bronn Tyrion reunion... and then Dany will kill him for shooting her dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 11, 2017, 08:42:35 AM
Apparently identified : actor playing Rhaegar Targaryan. Possibly in a wedding scene with Lyanna.
Jon is the rightful king!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 11, 2017, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 11, 2017, 08:42:35 AM
Job is the rightful king!

(https://www.bibleodyssey.org/-/media/Images/People/J/job-woman-wisdom.ashx)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 11, 2017, 10:27:44 AM
Typo aside, how does succession work? Rhaeger died before jon was born or the mad kind died, so Visyres was the rightful king? yes? So upon his death, who succeeds, his nephew, or his sister?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 11, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
So how does bigamy work then? How can Rhaegar be legally married to Lyanna?

In a medieval society hyper concerned about legitimacy, I don't see how nobles having multiple wives can possibly be a thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on August 11, 2017, 11:16:29 AM
Jon has no real claim to the Throne but that's not why he's there. He's there to save the world from the Night King & ride Dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 11, 2017, 11:18:39 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 11, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
So how does bigamy work then? How can Rhaegar be legally married to Lyanna?

In a medieval society hyper concerned about legitimacy, I don't see how nobles having multiple wives can possibly be a thing.

The Targ's have practiced polygamy in the past, so if Rhaeger married Lyanna jon would be legitimate, I just don't know where on the succession hierarchy he'd sit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 11, 2017, 11:41:02 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 11, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
So how does bigamy work then? How can Rhaegar be legally married to Lyanna?

In a medieval society hyper concerned about legitimacy, I don't see how nobles having multiple wives can possibly be a thing.

What the Eggplant said. The Targaryen dynasty broke a lot of rules that were traditional in Westerosi culture. Polygamy wasn't unknown.

Jon would sit on top of the hierarchy because he is male--that's what the first Dance of the Dragons "solved" anyway. It's entirely possible Dany and Jon will come to blows over the succession, but I don't see Jon as giving a damn about his rights compared to saving the kingdom. He is very much the sort to lay aside whatever claim he might have if it means peace.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 11, 2017, 11:56:33 AM
Historic example of Jons birth situation.
Well,  part of it anyway

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_France
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 11, 2017, 01:28:05 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 11, 2017, 11:56:33 AM
Historic example of Jons birth situation.
Well,  part of it anyway

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_France
See also:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_the_Posthumous
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Rex Francorum on August 11, 2017, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 11, 2017, 10:27:44 AM
Typo aside, how does succession work? Rhaeger died before jon was born or the mad kind died, so Visyres was the rightful king? yes? So upon his death, who succeeds, his nephew, or his sister?

Well, it happened in France in 1316. Louis X died but his wife was pregnant. Louis' eldest brother Philippe became regent until birth of the child (John the first). The child died not long after his birth then Philippe became the king (Philippe V).

Edit: Doh, Tyr said it before me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 11, 2017, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 10, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
I still think it's not Bron who pushes Jaime.

It's Billy Bones.
Just paused it.  You can clearly tell it's Bronn.  While you don't see his face, you see his hair and his outfit which make it clear who it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 12, 2017, 05:47:30 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 11, 2017, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 10, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
I still think it's not Bron who pushes Jaime.

It's Billy Bones.
Just paused it.  You can clearly tell it's Bronn.  While you don't see his face, you see his hair and his outfit which make it clear who it is.

Yeah, I'm not sure why GF is still pushing that idea.  It was Bron.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 12, 2017, 08:57:59 AM
How can you be so sure?

It might be Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 12, 2017, 10:53:46 AM
I thought it was Littlefinger.  :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 12, 2017, 11:04:26 AM
It was Bronn's lesser known brother Nnorb
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 12, 2017, 01:39:54 PM
It was me. I did it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 12, 2017, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 12, 2017, 10:53:46 AM
I thought it was Littlefinger.  :huh:

That makes no sense. He was all the way back in Winterfell.

And Arya was using his teleporter, so clearly he could not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 12, 2017, 03:31:44 PM
Oh, right, I missed Arya snatching his teleporter.

Still, maybe he convinced her to do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 12, 2017, 03:48:52 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 12, 2017, 03:31:44 PM
Oh, right, I missed Arya snatching his teleporter.

Still, maybe he convinced her to do it.

Hmmm. That does seem plausible....

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 12, 2017, 04:34:53 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 12, 2017, 03:31:44 PM
Oh, right, I missed Arya snatching his teleporter.

Still, maybe he convinced her to do tricked her into doing it.

This is Littlefinger.  He doesn't convince.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on August 13, 2017, 02:44:10 PM
:(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 13, 2017, 02:48:17 PM
I wonder what happened to Edmure Tully.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 13, 2017, 09:00:24 PM
It's the fellowship of the night king
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 13, 2017, 09:26:29 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2017, 09:00:24 PM
It's the fellowship of the night king

It's the reenactment of the quest of the Last Hero.  That doesn't bode well for Jon's companions.

I thought this was maybe Emilia Clarke's best performance to date.  She really communicated a lot through looks and tone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 13, 2017, 09:38:43 PM
I thought the whole "Bronn and Jamie wash up 1/2 a mile from the scene of defeat" bit was a bit hard to swallow.  How did they travel so far?  Holding their breath for an hour?

The Arya versus Littlefinger duel took a turn I did not suspect.  Littlefinger is still the boss.

The fact that Jon is now reenacting the quest of the Last Hero speaks poorly for the odds his companions survive.  The Hound will make it, and Gendry, but I suspect they and Jon will be it.  At least Beric Dondarrion will get a hero's death, rather than the mean death he suffers in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on August 13, 2017, 10:56:09 PM
Motherfucking Gendry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 13, 2017, 11:43:18 PM
I quite enjoyed how Sam's rant obscured the revelation that, yes, maybe Jon's a legitimate baby after all...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 14, 2017, 12:04:19 AM
How long has it been since we've had some T&A?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 12:38:53 AM
Two episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 14, 2017, 05:22:42 AM
Really enjoyed the episode. Quiet, but very eventful and rich with info and top notch banter. Seeing Davos in all his smuggliest mode is really fun. Seeing Gendry again (and wielding a warhammer!) was a treat. I wonder if Cersei is really preggers or if it's just an extra way to have Jaime at his beck and call. The tidbit about Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia and marrying Lyanna also makes Jon a legitimate Targ. Arya might be a stealth ninja assassin but is still a hotheaded dolt, so I expect trouble between her and Sansa soon. Littlefinger...just when it seemed that you were becoming irrelevant...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on August 14, 2017, 06:19:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 14, 2017, 12:04:19 AM
How long has it been since we've had some T&A?
13 days until BOATSEX.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 08:20:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2017, 05:22:42 AM
I wonder if Cersei is really preggers or if it's just an extra way to have Jaime at his beck and call.
I wonder how Euron is going to react once he realizes his marriage with Cersei will never happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 08:42:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 14, 2017, 12:04:19 AM
How long has it been since we've had some T&A?

They've actually toned down a lot of that over the last couple seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 14, 2017, 08:47:17 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 08:20:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2017, 05:22:42 AM
I wonder if Cersei is really preggers or if it's just an extra way to have Jaime at his beck and call.
I wonder how Euron is going to react once he realizes his marriage with Cersei will never happen.

It also goes against the Maggy the Frog prophecy, she was only meant to have three children, so I wouldn't bet on the pregnancy coming to terms...   :secret:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 14, 2017, 09:14:18 AM
So... they were a little hamfisted about Dany threatening death to those who wouldn't bend the knee - that and burning the Tarlys...  She didn't even think to offer old Tarly to become Warden of the South or harp on his loyalty to the Crown during Robert's rebellion.  I almost find myself beginning to root for Cercei - even though she's a ruthless bitch - or perhaps because she is...  She's the underdog here and Dany needs a good bitch-slapping to snap out of her complacency and the binary mode of 'making a better world' vs 'roasting people who don't comply' she seems stuck in.  Jesus the way she goes at it you'd think she was bipolar!

I loved the almost reveal found by Gilly (sp?) and disregarded by Sam; he handed that book over to the boy, perhaps the only 'legal' proof of Jon's lineage will end up with stick figures all over it?

Somebody needs to put Little Fingers out of his misery; he must be the only one who still hasn't grasped he'll never sit on the Iron Throne.  I think when it comes it'll be as satisfying as slicing old Frey's throat was.

What else... Ahh yes, Drogon's little display with Jon.  Many believe this was him 'smelling' another Targaryen.  However they do say that dragons share a strong emotional bond with their master/rider/handler...  Does he sense she's attracted to the King in the North?  Was this meant to be a test for his "mother's" potential mate?  And Jon barely flinched...  Did anyone notice how he observed both Jon and Dany for a few seconds before taking off?  If he'd been human I would have said he was smirking to himself after matching them.  But maybe I read too much into this.

Solid episode for an even stronger season than last year - so far.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 11:36:41 AM
I just noticed the look on D's face when Jon was touching her dragon....I swear she was wetting herself. "even my dragon likes him."
I think this season, and partly last year's , is going out of its way to show that D. isn't angelic, that she does have an evil totalitarian side to her. You don't want to cross her. For all her talk about freeing people, it's really all about "Join me, or die." I mean, how free are the "unsullied" really. Yes, in theory, they can walk away, but fighting is all they know. I'm hoping Snow puts her in her place. I even get the impression that Tyrion is no longer smitten with her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
I think that Dany's anger and her burnings are just further points towards her taking a heel turn next season without some major intervention. At least, I hope that's the angle they're going with. There's no way we get Jon and Dany running off to get incest-married together and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 14, 2017, 12:22:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
...There's no way we get Jon and Dany running off to get incest-married together and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne, right?


I think they're setting them up for the 'bitter sweet' ending.  If there is a love match there it woon't come to fruition.  Imagine, the last two Targaryen sacrificing themselves, and their dragons, to save the seven kingdoms...



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 11:36:41 AM
You don't want to cross her.
Really?  How did you get that?  Was it because of the very first time she had power, she burnt an entire city beginning with the guy who called her a bitch?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 14, 2017, 12:36:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
. There's no way we get Jon and Dany running off to get incest-married together and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne, right?

IIRC Dany is infertile.  Thus, Jon with another consort is the only hope for the continuation of the dynasty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 12:48:00 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 14, 2017, 12:36:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
. There's no way we get Jon and Dany running off to get incest-married together and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne, right?

IIRC Dany is infertile.  Thus, Jon with another consort is the only hope for the continuation of the dynasty.

In the books, it's strongly suggested that she is fertile by the end of book 5, or at least that was my reading.

In the show, I see her infertility easily being cast away as necessary.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on August 14, 2017, 12:54:34 PM
Jon's band would make a fun RPG party for something like Baldur's Gate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 01:00:03 PM
So the great Septorn not only married Rhaegar and Lyanna, he also *annulled* Rhaegar's marriage to Elia. On what grounds would that annulment be though?

Rhaegar was convinced that he needed another child - the dragon has three heads. If Elia could not give him another, is that grounds for annulment? Jon would be the third dragon, although of course the other two are dead, so now we have...two dragons?

And that makes Jon the rightful heir as well, not Dany. She has spent the entire time since her brothers death at the hands of her husband thinking SHE was the rightful and singular heir. How is she going to react to finding out that she is neither the singular heir or the rightful heir at all, but her nephew has the proper claim?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on August 14, 2017, 01:06:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 01:00:03 PM
On what grounds would that annulment be though?
Might makes right or because of plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 01:14:37 PM
So, Littlefinger manoeuvered around Arya to let her see the scroll.  Interesting to see how Aray will react.  Will she understand that her sister was coerced in writing this or will she get angry?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 14, 2017, 01:14:57 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 01:00:03 PM
So the great Septorn not only married Rhaegar and Lyanna, he also *annulled* Rhaegar's marriage to Elia. On what grounds would that annulment be though?

Henry the 8th would like to have a word with you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 14, 2017, 01:40:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 01:14:37 PM
So, Littlefinger manoeuvered around Arya to let her see the scroll.  Interesting to see how Aray will react.  Will she understand that her sister was coerced in writing this or will she get angry?

I think Arya doesn't do subtlety or understanding at all, she's always been one-track minded and I think that the obvious hostility she still feels for Sansa, which has been shown once again when Arya acuses her of "wanting to have all the nice things" and basically usurping the role of Lady of Winterfell and not caring what happens to Jon, will be furher incensed by the letter, which LF obviously wanted her to find.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 02:16:49 PM
So High Septon Maynard annulled the marriage and married Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That means that Dayne and the other Kingsguard likely knew that Jon was the rightful heir (at that point, since the Mad King is dead, and Rhaegar and his children are dead).

I wonder if Ned knew that they were married?

Why did the High Septon keep the secret?

Why wouldn't Rhaegar announce the truth to the world while the war is raging?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 14, 2017, 02:27:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 02:16:49 PM
Why did the High Septon keep the secret?

Why wouldn't Rhaegar announce the truth to the world while the war is raging?

It would have infuriated Robert even more and probably caused Dorne to switch sides.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 02:16:49 PM
I wonder if Ned knew that they were married?

Why did the High Septon keep the secret?

Why wouldn't Rhaegar announce the truth to the world while the war is raging?

1: Possibly. Even probably.

2: To prevent Jon/Lyanna being killed in the war's aftermath. Given that he granted the annulment, it is likely that he was close with Rhaegar.

3: The truth of his marriage to Lyanna? That would surely result in both her and his unborn heir being slain afterwards if they lost, which I'm assuming he was counting on at some point. In addition, publicly announcing the annulment in the middle of the war would certainly see Dorne defect or go neutral instead of aiding the Targaryens as they were.

Alternatively, insert prophecy excuse here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 02:16:49 PM
I wonder if Ned knew that they were married?
Not until Lyanna asked her to take Jon and protect him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on August 14, 2017, 02:42:31 PM
(https://i.redd.it/arrkihzoyofz.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 14, 2017, 02:59:20 PM
aww poor gendry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 14, 2017, 03:00:47 PM
And only two living people knew about the birth, Ned and Howland (and bran now too), so the marriage status of a dead (apparently) heirless king wouldn't matter much, I don't think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 03:00:54 PM
http://imgur.com/a/jbg1r#qViXG4u

Chrys Reviews does the Lord of Light's work again this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 03:00:54 PM
http://imgur.com/a/jbg1r#qViXG4u

Chrys Reviews does the Lord of Light's work again this season.
yeah, I felt the same watching the first scene.  How could he swim in full armor like that, for so long under water, from one shore to the other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on August 14, 2017, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 03:00:54 PM
http://imgur.com/a/jbg1r#qViXG4u

Chrys Reviews does the Lord of Light's work again this season.
yeah, I felt the same watching the first scene.  How could he swim in full armor like that, for so long under water, from one shore to the other.

Lot's of fast travel / teleportation all over that episode, but that's nothing new for the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 05:04:45 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 11:36:41 AM
You don't want to cross her.
Really?  How did you get that?  Was it because of the very first time she had power, she burnt an entire city beginning with the guy who called her a bitch?

Subtle I know, but I picked up on it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 05:05:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 01:14:37 PM
So, Littlefinger manoeuvered around Arya to let her see the scroll.  Interesting to see how Aray will react.  Will she understand that her sister was coerced in writing this or will she get angry?

What did the scroll say?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on August 14, 2017, 05:14:44 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 14, 2017, 05:05:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 14, 2017, 01:14:37 PM
So, Littlefinger manoeuvered around Arya to let her see the scroll.  Interesting to see how Aray will react.  Will she understand that her sister was coerced in writing this or will she get angry?

What did the scroll say?

It's the letter Cersei forced Sansa to write to Robb at the end of season 1 telling him about Robert's death and Ned's capture, asking him to go to King's Landing and recognize Joffrey as king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 02:16:49 PM
So High Septon Maynard annulled the marriage and married Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That means that Dayne and the other Kingsguard likely knew that Jon was the rightful heir (at that point, since the Mad King is dead, and Rhaegar and his children are dead).

I wonder if Ned knew that they were married?

Why did the High Septon keep the secret?

Why wouldn't Rhaegar announce the truth to the world while the war is raging?

The annulment makes zero sense.  An annulment de-legitimizes the children of the annulled marriage.  It makes Elia Martell into a woman who lived with and screwed a man she was not married to.  The insult to House Martell would be mortal.

It makes far more sense to simply have Rhaegar commit bigamy.  It was, after all, a tradition of his house and, while it wouldn't be popular, at least it wouldn't have been so fucking stupid that it sorta destroys any idea that Rhaegar would have been a good king.

And, as you note, it would have made no sense for the High Septon to keep a secret like that.  It would have removed the basis for the rebellion, and possibly have influenced the Great Houses to settle the war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 06:48:46 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 14, 2017, 02:28:56 PM

2: To prevent Jon/Lyanna being killed in the war's aftermath. Given that he granted the annulment, it is likely that he was close with Rhaegar.

But he kept the secret for months during which the outcome of the war was uncertain.  Maybe Rhaegar convinced him to keep silent in order to keep the Martells from taking the side of the rebels, but the High Septon is supposed to be above such considerations.  This annulment and marriage was of overwhelming public interest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 14, 2017, 07:28:22 PM
Grumbler has a point.  I suspect the writers thought "annulled" was the same as "divorced".  An annulment like that in the real middle ages would trigger a war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 08:55:23 PM
Someone up thread mentioned Henry VIII. That is a fine example of "the exception that proves the rule". We know about him BECAUSE what he did was so out of line, so completely unacceptable under the norms of the society that he became this caricature.

I am a bit blurry on the timing however. The marriage would have to have been before the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar died there, presumably after his marriage to Lyana. But with his death, the heir was Viserys anyway, not Elia's children - right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 09:31:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 08:55:23 PM
Someone up thread mentioned Henry VIII. That is a fine example of "the exception that proves the rule". We know about him BECAUSE what he did was so out of line, so completely unacceptable under the norms of the society that he became this caricature. 

Yeah, Henry VIII could not get an annulment under the rules of society and religion of the time.  That's why he had to pass the Act of Supremacy, so he could give one to himself.

QuoteI am a bit blurry on the timing however. The marriage would have to have been before the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar died there, presumably after his marriage to Lyana. But with his death, the heir was Viserys anyway, not Elia's children - right?

The Battle of the Trrident had to be six months or more after the marriage to Lyana, because Rhaegar was moving around with his army for months before the battle, and couldn't have sired Jon (who was born not more than a couple of months after the Battle of the Trident, because Ned couldn't have been searching for Lyana more than a few months, the way the story is told).

So, there was a period of maybe six months, maybe even more, in which the news that Lyana had not been kidnapped at all, but had willingly married Rhaegar, would have made a huge difference.  The Mad King would have to be deposed, of course, but presumably the rebellion could have been largely scotched had the truth about Lyana been widely disseminated.

And, no, the crown doesn't pass to Viserys if Rhaegar has a legitimate son, even one born posthumously.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 14, 2017, 09:35:19 PM
I have a name :weep:

The targaryans were always the exception that proved the rule. They did a lot of things that pissed the nobles and clergy off in the ways that they handled their marriages through incest and polygamy. But yeah, it was dumb to annul a marriage against one of his few allies, but he did become obsessed with his prophecy much like his great grandfather became obsessed with bringing back dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 10:19:15 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 14, 2017, 09:35:19 PM
The targaryans were always the exception that proved the rule. They did a lot of things that pissed the nobles and clergy off in the ways that they handled their marriages through incest and polygamy. But yeah, it was dumb to annul a marriage against one of his few allies, but he did become obsessed with his prophecy much like his great grandfather became obsessed with bringing back dragons.

Rhaegar believed that he needed a third child, because "the dragon has three heads."  Elia Martell could not have a third child, so a second wife was needed.  That's all been known since early days.  It's generally been believed that Elia was okay with Rhaegar taking Lyana as a second wife.

What makes zero sense is that Rhaegar would cast aside his first two children (who become bastards with an annulment, just as Elizabeth and Mary became bastards when Henry VIII annulled his marriages to their mothers) in order to get a third.  Raz is probably correct that the scriptwriter just didn't understand the consequences of an annulment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 15, 2017, 01:25:20 AM
I get the horrible sinking feeling they are really rushing towards an end now.
The whole thing with Tyrion nipping into kings landing, wanting to show cersei a walker, etc.... Bleh

Rhaegar got an annulment and marriage- why? Targaryans can do polygamy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 15, 2017, 01:32:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2017, 01:25:20 AM
I get the horrible sinking feeling they are really rushing towards an end now.
The whole thing with Tyrion nipping into kings landing, wanting to show cersei a walker, etc.... Bleh

Rhaegar got an annulment and marriage- why? Targaryans can do polygamy.

It's almost as if only 9 episodes are left of the whole series. :P



And regarding teleportation and such, finally they made a mention of this with the kid of Sam's woman. IIRC he was a baby when they arrived, now he is several years older.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 15, 2017, 07:07:42 AM
Yeah, I think they kind of forgot to mention that time was passing, and they've dropped a couple lines now in the manner of "it's been years since..." to indicate that the span of the show is literally many years, even though it seems like each episode immediately follows the one preceeding it.

And I am sure you can go back and poke holes in that, btw. The storyline likely doesn't actually have points where say six months might have passed between scenes, because it is obvious the writers never really bothered with that.

Hell, Martin has had the same problem.

How long has Sam been at Oldtown? At least a couple years, right, judging by the age of Gilly's son - he was a baby when they got there, and now he is what, 4 or 5? I thought winter was right around the corner back when they got there, wasn't it?

How long was Arya in Bravos?

The timelines don't match up really. The war has lasted years, but winter has been just months away for...well, since the start of the show?

Best not to think about it too much...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 15, 2017, 07:36:11 AM
I remember Sam mentioning he'd saw Bran go through the wall years ago too.

It's interesting as it puts the show more in line with Martin's original ideas than the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 07:52:44 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
And, as you note, it would have made no sense for the High Septon to keep a secret like that.  It would have removed the basis for the rebellion, and possibly have influenced the Great Houses to settle the war.
The War began after the King decided to burn alive those who came to ask for Lyanna to be brought back to them, namely Eddard's brother and father.

At this point, even if they learn that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, it's doubtful the Stark and their allies, most of the North, would stop the war.  The Mad King would never allow Robert Baratheon and his family to live after rebelling.

While it makes no sense for the marriage to be annuled, it makes no sense either for the High Septon to clamor it, it would simply plunge the realm in further chaos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 07:55:33 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 14, 2017, 08:55:23 PM
I am a bit blurry on the timing however. The marriage would have to have been before the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar died there, presumably after his marriage to Lyana. But with his death, the heir was Viserys anyway, not Elia's children - right?
If Lyanna Stark is pregnant and his the rightful wife, due to annulment of his previous marriage, than that makes Jon Snow the real heir.
Rhaegar is the heir to the Mad King.  His children are destined to rule.

If he's still married to Elia Martell, the eldest male children is the heir, not the brother and sister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 07:58:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 09:31:13 PM
So, there was a period of maybe six months, maybe even more, in which the news that Lyana had not been kidnapped at all, but had willingly married Rhaegar, would have made a huge difference.  The Mad King would have to be deposed, of course, but presumably the rebellion could have been largely scotched had the truth about Lyana been widely disseminated.
and it might just be that the Martell now want Rhaegar's head for this insult and they are the ones to rebell.  And Robert Baratheon just does not want to accept that his girl went away with another man and decides to kill them both.

Either way, it's chaos.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 15, 2017, 08:56:49 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 07:58:55 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 14, 2017, 09:31:13 PM
So, there was a period of maybe six months, maybe even more, in which the news that Lyana had not been kidnapped at all, but had willingly married Rhaegar, would have made a huge difference.  The Mad King would have to be deposed, of course, but presumably the rebellion could have been largely scotched had the truth about Lyana been widely disseminated.
and it might just be that the Martell now want Rhaegar's head for this insult and they are the ones to rebell.  And Robert Baratheon just does not want to accept that his girl went away with another man and decides to kill them both.

Either way, it's chaos.


The High Septon agreed to the annulment and marriage, so for some reason he thought it was a good idea. Whatever that reason might be, it seems pretty far fetched to imagine that the reason would be such that the annulment would make sense, yet keeping the fact of it secret is necessary.

Yes, there will be chaos either way - burning major nobles alive creates chaos in a feudal systems regardless.

But from the High Septons standpoint, surely chaos with the truth being known is preferable to chaos based on a lie. The lie did not prevent chaos, obviously, and even without the benefit of hindsight, it is hard to imagine how the lie could be preferable to the truth.

The public perception is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyana Stark, resulting in his father burning her father and brother alive when they objected.

This results in a major rebellion and about as much chaos as can be imagined, leading to the overthrow of the very dynasty the High Septon just performen an extraordinary marriage and annulment for.

Would it have really pissed off Elia's family to find out she had been set aside? Sure.

As much as it pissed them off to find out she and her children been murdered?

As much as it would piss off the Starks to find out that Lyana was kidnapped and forcibly raped by the Crown Prince?

There is no "non-chaos" option here, and it seems pretty clear that annulling the marriage in secret is vastly worse than doing so publicly.

The answer to the problem of "annulling the marriage will create chaos!" is not annul the marriage, not to do so in secret as if a secret annulment can ever be kept secret anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2017, 08:56:49 AM
The answer to the problem of "annulling the marriage will create chaos!" is not annul the marriage, not to do so in secret as if a secret annulment can ever be kept secret anyway.
Well, that's what I said.   The annulment does not really make sense, but once it's done, screaming about it will not help either, it might make things worst at this point.

I suppose from the High Septon's view, Rhaegar will prevail, and once the dust is settled, he will settle his affairs, and despite the annulment, might even recognize his children with Elya as legitimate and provide her with a comfortable retreat or even keep her as concubine.

I just don't think he imagines the loyalist camp losing to the rebel, and he wants to do a favor for his friend after he convinces him of his reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
Well, that's what I said.   The annulment does not really make sense, but once it's done, screaming about it will not help either, it might make things worst at this point.

Screaming about how it might make things worse doesn't equal an argument about how it would make things worse.  In fact, I don't see how it could make matters worse, other than Dorne not making the tiny contribution to the loyalist army that they eventually did make.   It would make a number of things better:
(1) Lords who had reservations about supporting the rebellion would have had more ammunition to avoid the rebel cause, since its basis was a falsehood.
(2) The Lannisters would have had no motive to murder Elia and her children, thus avoiding a great deal of future violence
(3) The issue of the rebellion would have devolved to the murders of the Starks.  That issue could be resolved by deposing the king and replacing him with Rhaegar, followed by a general amnesty.  None of the rebels was intending at the time to extinguish the Targaryn dynasty.

Clearly, secrecy served no one's interests except GRR Martin's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 01:11:04 PM
Granting that it's very hard to take to take seriously a Wiki of a fictional story, the Battle of the Trident entry in "AWOAIF" lists the Dornish contingent at 10,000 of a total of 40,000, making it one of if not the largest elements of the loyalist force.  It also lists a Martell as the second most senior commander after Rhaegar.  That seems like a very material contribution, not tiny.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 01:21:48 PM
One question left wondering.

If White Walkers can not cross the Wall, because of the magic, like Cold Hands, how are they going to cross the Wall with a captured one?  What will happen?  Will it act like some kind of anchor for the Night King to destroy the wall?  Or does he have that magical horn the Wildlings were searching for?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 15, 2017, 01:30:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 01:21:48 PM
One question left wondering.

If White Walkers can not cross the Wall, because of the magic, like Cold Hands, how are they going to cross the Wall with a captured one?  What will happen?  Will it act like some kind of anchor for the Night King to destroy the wall?  Or does he have that magical horn the Wildlings were searching for?

I suspect this will be what brings the Wall down, yes. It strikes me as convenient, at least, and would help to give some plot punch behind the silly quest to go capture a wight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 15, 2017, 01:30:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 01:21:48 PM
One question left wondering.

If White Walkers can not cross the Wall, because of the magic, like Cold Hands, how are they going to cross the Wall with a captured one?  What will happen?  Will it act like some kind of anchor for the Night King to destroy the wall?  Or does he have that magical horn the Wildlings were searching for?

I suspect this will be what brings the Wall down, yes. It strikes me as convenient, at least, and would help to give some plot punch behind the silly quest to go capture a wight.
Something else, too, that I just read. Old Nan tells a story to Bran about the Last hero who went North with 12 companions, his dog and his horse, they died one by one, until his horse too and finally his dog...
If Tormund is strong as a horse and the Hound is a dog...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 15, 2017, 02:20:11 PM
Certainly would be a way to sweep aside a lot of the cast. I have no doubts that Thoros and Beric are goners, along with the extra Wildlings that have been brought along as cannon fodder. Jon obviously has plot armor, and I think Tormund and the Hound make it, but I am rather skeptical they'd bring Gendry back just to off him an episode later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 15, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
Yeah, it would be really dumb to bother bringing back Gendry like so just to kill him.

Quote
If White Walkers can not cross the Wall, because of the magic, like Cold Hands, how are they going to cross the Wall with a captured one?  What will happen?  Will it act like some kind of anchor for the Night King to destroy the wall?  Or does he have that magical horn the Wildlings were searching for?
White walkers can't cross. Zombies can.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2017, 02:26:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 15, 2017, 02:20:11 PM
along with the extra Wildlings that have been brought along as cannon fodder

Poor schmucks might as well be wearing red shirts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 02:37:49 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
White walkers can't cross. Zombies can.
ah, I thought the same magic covered them both.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 01:11:04 PM
Granting that it's very hard to take to take seriously a Wiki of a fictional story, the Battle of the Trident entry in "AWOAIF" lists the Dornish contingent at 10,000 of a total of 40,000, making it one of if not the largest elements of the loyalist force.  It also lists a Martell as the second most senior commander after Rhaegar.  That seems like a very material contribution, not tiny.

Ten thousand men sent late from an entire kingdom is a tiny contribution.  Walder Frey has 4,000 men at the Twins, and that's even after some of his army takes the side of the Lannisters.  And he's hardly the most powerful lord in the Riverlands.

Yes, the Dornish made up a full quarter of the tattered remnants of an army that Rhaegar led to the Trident, but that's because of all the previous loyalist losses, not because Dorne sent so many men.  I cannot imagine that Rhaegar or the High Septon thought prolonging the war was an acceptable price for the tardy services of ten thousand Dornishmen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:19:39 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
Something else, too, that I just read. Old Nan tells a story to Bran about the Last hero who went North with 12 companions, his dog and his horse, they died one by one, until his horse too and finally his dog...
If Tormund is strong as a horse and the Hound is a dog...

Yep.  See post #8020.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
Yeah, it would be really dumb to bother bringing back Gendry like so just to kill him.

Quote
If White Walkers can not cross the Wall, because of the magic, like Cold Hands, how are they going to cross the Wall with a captured one?  What will happen?  Will it act like some kind of anchor for the Night King to destroy the wall?  Or does he have that magical horn the Wildlings were searching for?
White walkers can't cross. Zombies can.

Yes.  We saw one that was on the south side of the wall when he attacked Jon and Lord Mormont.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 15, 2017, 04:42:03 PM
(https://i.redditmedia.com/UhYR2TtQ2n8nSTgf7juP-a8YJA21ahAQNLDl9dAv798.jpg?w=768&s=7c9fe10585373e6d27ffcae2cd0c5592)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:19:39 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
Something else, too, that I just read. Old Nan tells a story to Bran about the Last hero who went North with 12 companions, his dog and his horse, they died one by one, until his horse too and finally his dog...
If Tormund is strong as a horse and the Hound is a dog...

Yep.  See post #8020.  :P
sorry, I totally missed it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 15, 2017, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
Yeah, it would be really dumb to bother bringing back Gendry like so just to kill him.

Quote
If White Walkers can not cross the Wall, because of the magic, like Cold Hands, how are they going to cross the Wall with a captured one?  What will happen?  Will it act like some kind of anchor for the Night King to destroy the wall?  Or does he have that magical horn the Wildlings were searching for?
White walkers can't cross. Zombies can.

Yes.  We saw one that was on the south side of the wall when he attacked Jon and Lord Mormont.
technically, it was a dead nighwatch resurected at the Wall.  Different magic involved or sommink ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 06:50:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:17:01 PM
Ten thousand men sent late from an entire kingdom is a tiny contribution. 

Don't know why you say that.  These are supposed to be feudal contingents, akin to late medieval Europe.  A force of 40,000 men is enormous, 10K from a single feudal principality is very substantial.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 08:05:31 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 06:50:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 03:17:01 PM
Ten thousand men sent late from an entire kingdom is a tiny contribution. 

Don't know why you say that.  These are supposed to be feudal contingents, akin to late medieval Europe.  A force of 40,000 men is enormous, 10K from a single feudal principality is very substantial.

I say that because Dorne is one of the Seven Kingdoms, and could have contributed more men, and more quickly.  Keeping the annulment and marriage secret so that you don't lose out on a mere 10,000 men (hell, there were 4 times that many men besieging Stannis at Storm's End - if you needed another 10,000 men that badly, break that siege and have them), when the upside is starving the rebellion of its basis, isn't wise.  I don't see why you think that it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 10:03:47 PM
Hmm "starving the rebellion of its basis" . . . a few posts earlier you were conceding that even had the information was known, it would not have stopped the rebellion against the Mad King.  His actions were the basis of the rebellion.

And would Rhaegar have colluded in the his father's deposition?  Would the Mad King agree to step down without firing up King's Landing , as he actually tried to do.  Would Robert have accepted Rhaegar's version of events or would he believe that Lyanna was under duress?  Would the rebels feel safe laying down their arms against the legitimate dynasty after having just rebelled against them?   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 10:27:53 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 10:03:47 PM
Hmm "starving the rebellion of its basis" . . . a few posts earlier you were conceding that even had the information was known, it would not have stopped the rebellion against the Mad King.  His actions were the basis of the rebellion.

His actions in response to their accusations that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (a widely-held belief, by all accounts).  The Mad King would, indeed, have to have been deposed.  Rhaegar, with the stain of the kidnapping charge lifted, would have been in a better position to do so.

QuoteAnd would Rhaegar have colluded in the his father's deposition? 

Yes.  Jamie says as much, in the books.

QuoteWould the Mad King agree to step down without firing up King's Landing , as he actually tried to do. 

I don't think it would have needed his consent.  The fact of the matter was that Aerys had no idea how to make or use wildfire, and his pyromancers had no motive to back him against Rhaegar, given that King Aerys was asking them to suicide themselves in order to kill a hundred thousand innocent people in the service of his madness.  Even without Rhaegar, and without Jamie's action in killing him, I don't believe that the pyromancers would kill themselves in service of Aerys.

QuoteWould Robert have accepted Rhaegar's version of events or would he believe that Lyanna was under duress?  Would the rebels feel safe laying down their arms against the legitimate dynasty after having just rebelled against them? 

Unknown, but the chances were better that they would do so knowing the truth, than they would do so if the truth were deliberately withheld from them.  The decision to make Robert king came only AFTER the rebels found out that the royal family was dead or fled.

What objective is served by keeping Rhaegar's wedding a secret?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 10:56:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 10:27:53 PM
Yes.  Jamie says as much, in the books.

An unimpeachable source . . .

QuoteThe fact of the matter was that Aerys had no idea how to make or use wildfire, and his pyromancers had no motive to back him against Rhaegar, given that King Aerys was asking them to suicide themselves in order to kill a hundred thousand innocent people in the service of his madness.  Even without Rhaegar, and without Jamie's action in killing him, I don't believe that the pyromancers would kill themselves in service of Aerys.

So Jaime was wrong in thinking otherwise, but right about the Prince's sudden interest in deposing his father?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 16, 2017, 09:49:50 AM
another leaked episode, so Kat stay off of the youtubes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Fate on August 16, 2017, 09:59:49 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 16, 2017, 09:49:50 AM
another leaked episode, so Kat stay off of the youtubes.

All of the plot of season 7 was leaked at the start. A Spanish GOT translator posted everything on reddit.com/r/freefolk.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 16, 2017, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 15, 2017, 02:26:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 15, 2017, 02:20:11 PM
along with the extra Wildlings that have been brought along as cannon fodder

Poor schmucks might as well be wearing red shirts.

the lannisters can't be everywhere at once...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 11:12:41 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2017, 10:56:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 15, 2017, 10:27:53 PM
Yes.  Jamie says as much, in the books.

An unimpeachable source . . .


I suspect that we will discover that the author is lying about these people or places even existing.  So, not one character is unimpeachable if they are all fictional and just way whatever martin wants them to say.

QuoteSo Jaime was wrong in thinking otherwise, but right about the Prince's sudden interest in deposing his father?

Jamie was wrong in a lot of his thinking, presumably.  He's a human being.  And I have seen no evidence that Rhaegar's interest in stopping his insane father was "sudden," but presumably you will share your evidence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 11:56:00 AM
My evidence is that Aerys ruled for 21 years, of which he was reportedly stark raving for the last 5-6 years, and yet the prince did nothing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 01:08:36 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 11:56:00 AM
My evidence is that Aerys ruled for 21 years, of which he was reportedly stark raving for the last 5-6 years, and yet the prince did nothing.

So you have no evidence, is what you are saying.

Unless you want to push the logical fallacy that "lack of evidence is evidence of lack"?

There is circumstantial evidence that Rhaegar was, indeed, planning to install a regency:
(1) He and his family dwelt at Dragonstone, not, as was customary, in King's Landing.
(2)  We have Barriston Selmy's first-hand account of the type of man Rhaegar was (yes, Selmy could be lying). If Rhaegar was even half as good as Selmy attests, he wasn't happy with his father's behavior and would begin to scheme the replacement of Aerys with himself as regent.
(3) Aerys hires Varys, of all people, to be his Master of Whispers.  Why would a paranoid prefer to trust a complete stranger to trusting someone he knew?  Because Varys would not have spent time with Rhaegar and thus be potentially corrupted.  This is circumstantial evidence that Aerys thought there was something for Varys to find:  a plot by Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys.
(4) Even if Rhaegar hadn't started scheming for the regency before Varys was hired, he would have to do so in self defense after Aerys brings in a stranger to spy on everyone.

None of this is conclusive evidence, but it is more persuasive than "Rhaegar did nothing because I don't have any way to know what he did."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 01:08:36 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 11:56:00 AM
My evidence is that Aerys ruled for 21 years, of which he was reportedly stark raving for the last 5-6 years, and yet the prince did nothing.

So you have no evidence, is what you are saying.

Unless you want to push the logical fallacy that "lack of evidence is evidence of lack"?

No usually the proponent of the proposition - e.g. the king's son intended to depose the king - carries the burden of proof.

Since we have no access to the mind of this fictional character (who has no viewpoint chapter) - his actions are the primary evidence of intent.  The fact that he took no action at all to carry out a deposition plot makes the case to the contrary very difficult to make without strong evidence that such a plot truly existed.  The circumstantial evidence you cite is weak - at best, it shows Rhaegar and Aerys didn't get along well, not exactly an uncommon occurrence in royal families.  The Varys speculation is really stretching it.

Everything actually in the books tends to suggest Rheagar was an honorable person - a quality that led him to disapprove of his father's actions, but at the same time a quality that ensured that disapproval, however great, would never tip over into outright disloyalty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 02:10:22 PM
No usually the proponent of the proposition - e.g. the king's son intended to depose the king - carries the burden of proof.

And I have provided the evidence: he told Jamie so, in their last meeting.

QuoteSince we have no access to the mind of this fictional character (who has no viewpoint chapter) - his actions are the primary evidence of intent.  The fact that he took no action at all to carry out a deposition plot makes the case to the contrary very difficult to make without strong evidence that such a plot truly existed. 

Your "fact" ( the "fact that he took no action at all to carry out a deposition plot) is something you just made up to support a case that you otherwise have no evidence for. 

The evidence in books and show alike that he was a decent and just man, beloved by the people and nobles alike, makes you claim that he was no such thing and was determined to nothing to stop his insane father a real stretch.  Extraordinary claims like yours require extraordinary evidence, and you don't even have weak evidence.

QuoteThe circumstantial evidence you cite is weak - at best, it shows Rhaegar and Aerys didn't get along well, not exactly an uncommon occurrence in royal families.  The Varys speculation is really stretching it.

These assertions are stricken as non-responsive.  I have provided evidence, you have provided bupkis.  Until you have evidence to the contrary, the circumstantial evidence I have presented is more persuasive than your naked assertion that you think it is "weak" and "a stretch."  You cannot even provide counter-explanations other than "not exactly an uncommon occurrence in royal families."  Neither was a son trying to depose his father "exactly an uncommon occurrence in royal families."  Your "evidence" cuts against your argument as much as it cuts for it.

QuoteEverything actually in the books tends to suggest Rheagar was an honorable person - a quality that led him to disapprove of his father's actions, but at the same time a quality that ensured that disapproval, however great, would never tip over into outright disloyalty.

Except that he wouldn't think it disloyalty to depose an insane king; he'd be doing his father a favor, by removing him from the temptation to further besmirch his name and the name of the family.  No one thinks George Prince of Wales was "disloyal" to his father George III for deposing him in 1810 and ruling as regent.  Honor does not come from blindly obeying insanity.  Not even among lawyers and clergymen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 16, 2017, 02:56:10 PM
The king suspected his son wanted to usurp him. Which is why he went to the tourney where rhaeger meant lyanna (the mad king rarely left the castle after his hostage ordeal). So aerys was worried enough about it. But then again he was a paranoid dude.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 16, 2017, 04:05:24 PM
Episode 7 leaked.  By HBO  :P
http://www.break.com/article/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-7-leaked-online-3123300
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
And I have provided the evidence: he told Jamie so, in their last meeting.

I don't have the books with me - what exactly did Jaime say he said.  That seems to me is the only actual evidence of any intent to depose.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 16, 2017, 04:27:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
And I have provided the evidence: he told Jamie so, in their last meeting.

I don't have the books with me - what exactly did Jaime say he said.  That seems to me is the only actual evidence of any intent to depose.

Iirc he told Jaime there would be some changes when he got back from the battle (of the trident). Jaime was upset because the king wouldn't let him go and wanted him at kings landing as a guarentee that tywin didn't declare for the rebel
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 16, 2017, 06:09:41 PM
Spoilers from the leak

[spoiler] suck it greyfox :P [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 16, 2017, 07:37:35 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
I don't have the books with me - what exactly did Jaime say he said.  That seems to me is the only actual evidence of any intent to depose.

We don't know exactly what Jamie said because we are hearing this second-hand, as I recall.  But he apologized for not "organizing the council" or something like that, before he had to leave, and that he'd do so and there would be changes when he got back.

And we don't have lots of evidence of intent to depose because the intent to depose wasn't public (it couldn't be) and it happened before the story began. 

We actually don't have evidence of lots of things the show takes for granted.  We don't know that the Sept of Baelor was built by King Baelor, though everyone assumes that that is true.  Demanding hard evidence that Rhaegar wanted to depose the king before abandoning the argument that the High Septon was unwise in keeping Rhaegars new marriage a secret seems daft to me (particularly when you can't present any evidence to the contrary, and just insist that the burden of proof isn't on you). 

We may, or may not, get more data on the history of the period around the time of Robert's Rebellion.  Until then, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 17, 2017, 04:37:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 16, 2017, 04:05:24 PM
Episode 7 leaked.  By HBO  :P
http://www.break.com/article/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-7-leaked-online-3123300

Episode 6 you mean. Nice intentional typo in the title as they write about episode 6 in the article. Bloody clickbait.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 17, 2017, 06:22:16 AM
Conspiracy hat on, I wonder if they are leaking episodes deliberately, knowing the show is heavily pirated anyway this can be a way to out those who watch in advance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 17, 2017, 07:34:58 AM
There's no up side. They're already a dominant cultural phenomena, they don't need buzz. People fuck up. While popular if an episode of the Big Bang leaked no one would care. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 17, 2017, 09:10:54 AM
they should just do it the Netflix way: release the entire season at once.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 17, 2017, 10:44:40 AM
I don't think HBO needs advice from much of anyone on the best way to go about monetizing and marketing big budget drama shows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 17, 2017, 10:57:59 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 17, 2017, 09:10:54 AM
they should just do it the Netflix way: release the entire season at once.

I have to wonder if you even know what HBO's business model is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on August 17, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
Fake festival t-shirt available on sqwertee.com

(https://cdn.qwertee.com/images/designs/product-thumbs/1501763932-119623-zoom-500x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 17, 2017, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 17, 2017, 07:34:58 AM
There's no up side. They're already a dominant cultural phenomena, they don't need buzz. People fuck up. While popular if an episode of the Big Bang leaked no one would care. 
I was thinking more in outing/revealing pirates.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on August 17, 2017, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 17, 2017, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 17, 2017, 07:34:58 AM
There's no up side. They're already a dominant cultural phenomena, they don't need buzz. People fuck up. While popular if an episode of the Big Bang leaked no one would care. 
I was thinking more in outing/revealing pirates.

The latest episode 6 leak was supposed to have come from the translator for the Spanish version of GoT.

(https://i.redd.it/ksc8d3ioz4gz.gif)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 17, 2017, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 17, 2017, 10:57:59 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 17, 2017, 09:10:54 AM
they should just do it the Netflix way: release the entire season at once.

I have to wonder if you even know what HBO's business model is.
Yes I know what it is, I'm just frustrated at traditional television.  They already have HBO Go in the US after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 17, 2017, 05:50:25 PM
I won't be 'spoiling' anything but this was a much weaker episode.   One can see how they are now rushing to the finish line; there are huge plotholes, time discontinuity, etc.  It felt really contrived - think Bron in episode 4 & 5 - where he should have died.

Oh well, it will soon be over.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 20, 2017, 07:56:52 PM
Bring back the nudity.

no,  I didn't write this

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/08/18/bring-back-the-nudity-on-game-of-thrones-teitel.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 20, 2017, 08:04:38 PM
The star is lucky a woman wrote that or they'd be in trouuuble
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 09:30:25 PM
I was kinda surprised they spent so much time on the Quest in the North.  Fan service, I suppose.

And the zombie dragon, as I predicted.  Now we know how the Wall will be destroyed.

I found the battle at the frozen lake very dissatisfying after the battles we've seen in the past couple of episodes.  The zombies totally surround them, and yet Jon keeps having them 'retreat."  Where are they retreating to, and why aren't zombies already there?  The whole thing just didn't work for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 20, 2017, 09:48:51 PM
My only question is if the zombies burn doesn't a fire breathing zombie become self defeating?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 09:59:12 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 20, 2017, 09:48:51 PM
My only question is if the zombies burn doesn't a fire breathing zombie become self defeating?

I'm not sure zombie dragon breathes fire.  Maybe it breathes ice.  Brittlize (not a word) the wall and smash it (maybe that's why they showed us the zombie giants; those dudes can be hurling the big rocks that smash up the wall after the zombie dragon makes it brittle).

Bets on Dani dying trying to fly Drogon against the Night King on Zombie Viserion?  (I assume Viserion died because Jon has to ride the dragon named after his father, right?)  And then Jon Snow flying Rhaegal to put and end to the Night King and zombie Viserion?  Seems too pat to me, but the ending can't be happy, so I don't see Dani surviving season 8.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 20, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
I think dani will die too. But I don't think it'll be in battle. My going stupid theory is that cersie will double cross them (of course) pissing off dani and leading her to go mad queen with the plan to burn kings landing and tyrion will take her out to stop it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on August 20, 2017, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 16, 2017, 06:09:41 PM
Spoilers from the leak

[spoiler] suck it greyfox :P [/spoiler]

I hate how Grumbler is basically right about everything. He must be Martin.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 11:34:17 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 20, 2017, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 16, 2017, 06:09:41 PM
Spoilers from the leak

[spoiler] suck it greyfox :P [/spoiler]

I hate how Grumbler is basically right about everything. He must be Martin.

You had a reasonable position.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 20, 2017, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 20, 2017, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 16, 2017, 06:09:41 PM
Spoilers from the leak

[spoiler] suck it greyfox :P [/spoiler]

I hate how Grumbler is basically right about everything. He must be Martin.

<_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 11:39:40 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 20, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
I think dani will die too. But I don't think it'll be in battle. My going stupid theory is that cersie will double cross them (of course) pissing off dani and leading her to go mad queen with the plan to burn kings landing and tyrion will take her out to stop it.

I don't think Dani will die such an ignoble death - I don't think the fans would ever forgive HBO for that.

Yes, Cersei will double-cross Jon and Dani next episode, and I think Jamie kills her for it.  Next episode will then end with the fall of the Wall.  Dani won't die this season, but Cersei might.  The Golden Company will have to arrive before her death, though, and I'm not sure there's enough time in the next episode for them on top of Cleganebowl, Cersei's backstab, and the fall of the Wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 12:25:08 AM
At least the show is consistent about showing how bad a battlefield leader Jon is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2017, 12:53:40 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 12:25:08 AM
At least the show is consistent about showing how bad a battlefield leader Jon is.


Yeah, I noticed that as well. I'm not sure I'd trust him to run a bath.  I kept thinking of the battle of the Black Gate in the LOTR movies.

[spoiler]Having Benjen save Jon the second time and then immediately die felt kind of stupid.  "My long lost uncle showed up out of the blue to save me and I rode off on his dead horse okay let's not even ask". [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2017, 01:05:19 AM
Oh, and is it just me or does it feel like the further we get away from the novels the more slapdash and generic this feels?  I'm kind of questioning the wisdom of the shorter season here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on August 21, 2017, 01:23:41 AM
I know everybody is going to laugh at me here for even still feeling this way but damn this show just makes me wish we could get our hands on book six already. I realize I should have given up long ago but damn we only have two books to go I just feel like he can still do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 21, 2017, 03:32:54 AM
The going rumor is - season 8 will be delayed to 2019... with potentially six 1.5-2h long episodes.  Also there's also a leaked copy of episode one of S8 out there...  If the content of it is true then it's getting cheesier folks.



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on August 21, 2017, 05:00:30 AM
Since production of season eight doesn't even start till October....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Kleves on August 21, 2017, 07:48:02 AM
This episode was the first time that the fast travel stuff really bugged me. Even if a dragon flies at the speed of a 747, I don't see all the travel in this episode working out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 07:56:01 AM
Whats annoying about it is that again, IT ISN'T NECESSARY!

It's just lazy writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 09:30:25 PM
I was kinda surprised they spent so much time on the Quest in the North.  Fan service, I suppose.

And the zombie dragon, as I predicted.  Now we know how the Wall will be destroyed.

I found the battle at the frozen lake very dissatisfying after the battles we've seen in the past couple of episodes.  The zombies totally surround them, and yet Jon keeps having them 'retreat."  Where are they retreating to, and why aren't zombies already there?  The whole thing just didn't work for me.

Also...why did the zombies just stop?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on August 21, 2017, 11:13:08 AM
Poor episode.

So all it took was one raven and Dany was off with her three dragons to safe the day where she didn't believe them earlier? Why didn't she just fly them there in the first place? And why didn't her dragons just immediately roast the Night King instead of focusing on the zombie hordes? That would have ended the war then and there.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 21, 2017, 11:17:53 AM
Quote from: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 11:05:08 AM
Also...why did the zombies just stop?

To give Dani time to show up and get drawn into the trap?

Bigger question:  why didn't the Night King kill the stationary dragon right in front of him (dooming Danaerys in the process) rather than the flying one further away?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 21, 2017, 11:32:18 AM
Well...

1: Scales get more and more screwed up. That they could get a guy to run back to the wall, send a raven to dragonstone, and have the dragons arrive all in the course of, what, 2/3 days max? Probably less?

2: Zombie dragon. Well. That answers that recurring question. Saw it coming.

3: Have they ever mentioned the Dragon has 3 heads in the series or is that just the books? As....yeah....Looks like that has fallen by the way side.

4: The zombies...they moved very odd. Very Evil Dead like. Not realistic.

5: It was hard to keep track of who was dying. How many red shirts were there? Thoros got a big send off but otherwise?

6: Interesting to see the Dragon-Bus for the first time. So easy too.

7: Benjen was just....what the hell? A: Why was there no time for him to ride the horse too? B: It really seems like there was a moment of  "Oh, there's a loose end with him. We have to kill him on screen". Pff.

8: My theory... The Walkers can warg into zombies. Thats why that one stayed alive. Its where the killed walker has transferred. Thats why the zombies really wanted it back. And why the show was careful to always hide its face.

Quote from: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 09:30:25 PM
I was kinda surprised they spent so much time on the Quest in the North.  Fan service, I suppose.

And the zombie dragon, as I predicted.  Now we know how the Wall will be destroyed.

I found the battle at the frozen lake very dissatisfying after the battles we've seen in the past couple of episodes.  The zombies totally surround them, and yet Jon keeps having them 'retreat."  Where are they retreating to, and why aren't zombies already there?  The whole thing just didn't work for me.

Also...why did the zombies just stop?
I think they have issues with crossing water?

But then we later clearly saw them still going in the water....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 21, 2017, 11:32:21 AM
Quote from: katmai on August 21, 2017, 05:00:30 AM
Since production of season eight doesn't even start till October....


The script - not the episode itself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on August 21, 2017, 11:35:53 AM
Quote from: Grallon on August 21, 2017, 11:32:21 AM
Quote from: katmai on August 21, 2017, 05:00:30 AM
Since production of season eight doesn't even start till October....


The script - not the episode itself.
Ah...gotcha
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 21, 2017, 12:59:17 PM
Once you have a location on your map, fast travel is enabled. Nothing unrealistic about that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 21, 2017, 01:17:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 07:56:01 AM
Whats annoying about it is that again, IT ISN'T NECESSARY!

It's just lazy writing.

it probably rubbed of from the lazy writer who needs to finish his bloody books!  <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 21, 2017, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: Zanza on August 21, 2017, 11:13:08 AM
Poor episode.

So all it took was one raven and Dany was off with her three dragons to safe the day where she didn't believe them earlier? Why didn't she just fly them there in the first place? And why didn't her dragons just immediately roast the Night King instead of focusing on the zombie hordes? That would have ended the war then and there.


Yeah, I wasn't that impressed.  The quest to take a zombie prisoner doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly if Dany can just fly over there in an afternoon.

Also I don't quite understand the logic of "We can't kill the Night King because that'll kill the all the Wights and we won't be able to bring back an animated Wight to convince people to fight the Night King".

I imagine the writer watching the finished products saying "Man, this made a lot more sense in my head".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 01:47:58 PM
I always imagine that a lot of these scenes were it just doesn't work as a whole are a product of writing by committee, where there isn't anyone to step in and say "Wait a minute - none of this makes any fucking SENSE!"


And then I think "Well, maybe there is such a person, and maybe they just don't care whether it makes sense or not. They care about whether it is visually appealing, fits into the time budget, and can be done in the cost budget...".


Could you imagine Martin writing something so shoddy from a story perspective?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 01:58:12 PM
Last night's episode was the first time I've worried that the show won't be able to stick the landing in the final season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 21, 2017, 02:12:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 21, 2017, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: Zanza on August 21, 2017, 11:13:08 AM
"We can't kill the Night King because that'll kill the all the Wights and we won't be able to bring back an animated Wight to convince people to fight the Night King".

Dany wasn't privy to the information about the Night King at the time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 21, 2017, 02:23:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 01:47:58 PM
I always imagine that a lot of these scenes were it just doesn't work as a whole are a product of writing by committee, where there isn't anyone to step in and say "Wait a minute - none of this makes any fucking SENSE!"


And then I think "Well, maybe there is such a person, and maybe they just don't care whether it makes sense or not. They care about whether it is visually appealing, fits into the time budget, and can be done in the cost budget...".


Could you imagine Martin writing something so shoddy from a story perspective?

I'm kinda wondering if the last episode didn't burn through so much of their budget that they just decided to fill screen time with guys walking around and swapping anecdotes.

Some of the anecdotes weren't bad, but the whole episode seemed to have lost the tension that was present in earlier episodes.  I didn't find the final battle tense at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 03:25:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 21, 2017, 02:23:24 PM

Some of the anecdotes weren't bad, but the whole episode seemed to have lost the tension that was present in earlier episodes.  I didn't find the final battle tense at all.

For a show that supposedly broke ground in the "Yes, we really will kill your favorite character motherfucker!" trope, I found it incredibly annoying that they tried to create tension around Jon's survival at least three different times.

1. ZOMG THEY ARE ABOUT TO CATCH THEM WHEW SAVED BY HANDY ICE LAKE AT JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT IN THE RIGHT TIME.
2. OH NOES THEY ARE GOING TO BE OVERRUN BY THE Walk....errh undead...WHEW THE DRAGON ARRIVED JUST IN TIME!
3. OH MY GOSH HE IS DEAD! THEY CAUGHT HIM AND PULLED HIM UNDER THE WATER! NO WAY OUT OF THAT ONE!. Oh wait, there he is crawling out...minutes later? Apparently living people have less need of oxygen then dead people? WTF?
4. HOLY CRAP! THEY NOTICED HIM! HE IS DEAD FOR SURE! Oh, look, here comes his uncle who in the entire expanse of the North just happened to be wondering about near Jon. Lucky break there.

Look. You guys killed him already, then you brought him back from the dead. And that is all good. But nobody is going to believe that he is going to die in some middle of the season nothing episode, so the tension you are trying to create by putting Pretty Jon in all this hopeless situations? It's just silly and rather boring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 09:30:25 PM
I was kinda surprised they spent so much time on the Quest in the North.  Fan service, I suppose.

And the zombie dragon, as I predicted.  Now we know how the Wall will be destroyed.

I found the battle at the frozen lake very dissatisfying after the battles we've seen in the past couple of episodes.  The zombies totally surround them, and yet Jon keeps having them 'retreat."  Where are they retreating to, and why aren't zombies already there?  The whole thing just didn't work for me.

Also...why did the zombies just stop?
they realized the ice was too thin, so they waited them out.  Zombies are immortals, humans will eventually die from cold exposure/lack of food/lack of water.

from the nightking's point of view, arriving to the wall one day or the other isn't really important.  He's been walking for 6000 years, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: Zanza on August 21, 2017, 11:13:08 AM
So all it took was one raven and Dany was off with her three dragons to safe the day where she didn't believe them earlier?
Yes, it was stupid writing.  Jon should have convinced her to accompany him in the north with one of her dragon.  Then, maybe just fly over land until you find a horde and watch them from a distance, retreat.

QuoteWhy didn't she just fly them there in the first place? And why didn't her dragons just immediately roast the Night King instead of focusing on the zombie hordes? That would have ended the war then and there.
The Night King is immune to fire, it is known.  ;)  We see him walking through fire at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:45:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 21, 2017, 11:32:18 AM
8: My theory... The Walkers can warg into zombies. Thats why that one stayed alive. Its where the killed walker has transferred. Thats why the zombies really wanted it back. And why the show was careful to always hide its face.
when a Walker dies, the zombies he converted die with him.  that's what they said in the episode though.  I have no idea if it's consistent with the episode at Hardhome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 01:47:58 PM
Could you imagine Martin writing something so shoddy from a story perspective?
Well, when you take a quarter century to write 5 books, it's easier not to get lost than doing the same work in 6 years :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 21, 2017, 02:23:24 PM
I didn't find the final battle tense at all.
from the moment they walked out there, we knew a deus ex machina would save them.  A timely appearance by allied force, a dragon, Benjen, whatever.

I suspect in the books, the Children of the Forrest will save that party in a similar fashion and sacrifice themselves, they way they did for Bran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:56:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 21, 2017, 03:25:20 PM
Apparently living people have less need of oxygen then dead people? WTF?
Last week, Bronn carried an armored Jamie 2km under water before surfacing to breath. What's 30 seconds under icy water? :P

Quote
4. HOLY CRAP! THEY NOTICED HIM! HE IS DEAD FOR SURE! Oh, look, here comes his uncle who in the entire expanse of the North just happened to be wondering about near Jon. Lucky break there.
that could be explained because Benjen is shadowing the army of th dead, unable to attack due to their numbers, but sometimes picking off stragglers when he can.

Quote
Look. You guys killed him already, then you brought him back from the dead. And that is all good. But nobody is going to believe that he is going to die in some middle of the season nothing episode, so the tension you are trying to create by putting Pretty Jon in all this hopeless situations? It's just silly and rather boring.
totally agree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 21, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
I sure hope the books are better than this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 20, 2017, 09:30:25 PM
I was kinda surprised they spent so much time on the Quest in the North.  Fan service, I suppose.

And the zombie dragon, as I predicted.  Now we know how the Wall will be destroyed.

I found the battle at the frozen lake very dissatisfying after the battles we've seen in the past couple of episodes.  The zombies totally surround them, and yet Jon keeps having them 'retreat."  Where are they retreating to, and why aren't zombies already there?  The whole thing just didn't work for me.

Also...why did the zombies just stop?
they realized the ice was too thin, so they waited them out.  Zombies are immortals, humans will eventually die from cold exposure/lack of food/lack of water.



Um but then the one guy lobbed a snowball and they decided to hell with the thin ice?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:20:42 PM
The rock didn't break the ice so they realized it was frozen over. As for not burning big papa ice king, dani didn't know he was the leader, or what killing him would do. She took out the walkers closest to the group.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
I sure hope the books are better than this.

Yeah, it seems like they're losing direction. The only thing that makes me sad is that there's a totally different usueless dorn story in the book, so I have to live through it twice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 05:57:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
I sure hope the books are better than this.

Yeah, it seems like they're losing direction. The only thing that makes me sad is that there's a totally different usueless dorn story in the book, so I have to live through it twice.

You're making a huge assumption that the Dorne story in the books is useless. It hasn't been shown that it is yet, and I have some ideas as to why it will matter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 21, 2017, 06:05:20 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 05:57:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
I sure hope the books are better than this.

Yeah, it seems like they're losing direction. The only thing that makes me sad is that there's a totally different usueless dorn story in the book, so I have to live through it twice.

You're making a huge assumption that the Dorne story in the books is useless. It hasn't been shown that it is yet, and I have some ideas as to why it will matter.

[spoiler] husband to be got charbroiled. Not sure what else can happen that will have a different out come then the tv show, but along a different meandering road [spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 21, 2017, 06:58:41 PM
Martin as much as said Jon was a wight, and didn't breath, didn't bleed, etc.  Maybe his survival in impossible circumstances in this episode will reveal that... reveal?

I found the idea that Jon couldn't board the dragon one of the real breaking points of the suspension of disbelief. Suppose he just ignores the charging wights and hops aboard the dragon?  Is it really reasonable to believe that the couple of wights he delays could have killed a dragon had he let them have access to it?  The arrival of Benjan is even more deus ex machina than the arrival of Danerys.

The show just went from "event" to "episode."  That sucks, man.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 06:05:20 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 21, 2017, 05:57:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: celedhring on August 21, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
I sure hope the books are better than this.

Yeah, it seems like they're losing direction. The only thing that makes me sad is that there's a totally different usueless dorn story in the book, so I have to live through it twice.

You're making a huge assumption that the Dorne story in the books is useless. It hasn't been shown that it is yet, and I have some ideas as to why it will matter.

[spoiler] husband to be got charbroiled. Not sure what else can happen that will have a different out come then the tv show, but along a different meandering road [spoiler]

[spoiler]Quentyn isn't the Dorne storyline...[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 22, 2017, 03:23:43 AM
Also, how nobody is mentioning what happened to the Freys? I mean, it's not like they weren't a strong-ish party in the whole ordeal, and they have all been vanquished, likely leaving a pretty gaping power vacuum in the Neck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 22, 2017, 04:57:39 AM
True on not mentioning the Freys at all, which is weird.
IIRC the Lannisters off hand mention they're dead at one point and thats it.

What confuses me more is the status of the Vale and Riverlands.
So...the Vale is part of the North now? It's independent? Its still officially under Cersei?

Quote from: viper37 on August 21, 2017, 03:45:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 21, 2017, 11:32:18 AM
8: My theory... The Walkers can warg into zombies. Thats why that one stayed alive. Its where the killed walker has transferred. Thats why the zombies really wanted it back. And why the show was careful to always hide its face.
when a Walker dies, the zombies he converted die with him.  that's what they said in the episode though.  I have no idea if it's consistent with the episode at Hardhome.

One of them was left behind however.
Why?
Why would he happen to have one made by another walker with him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Gups on August 22, 2017, 05:35:33 AM
I don't think there's much point in worrying about internal consistency at this stage in the show. The writers have obviously given up.

I'm just enjoying the action sequences and the occasionally funny bits of dialogue. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2017, 06:54:45 AM
Quote from: Gups on August 22, 2017, 05:35:33 AM
I don't think there's much point in worrying about internal consistency at this stage in the show. The writers have obviously given up.

I'm just enjoying the action sequences and the occasionally funny bits of dialogue.

Yep, exactly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on August 22, 2017, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:20:42 PM
The rock didn't break the ice so they realized it was frozen over. As for not burning big papa ice king, dani didn't know he was the leader, or what killing him would do. She took out the walkers closest to the group.
Even if she didn't explicitly know what the Night King looked like, it seems she should have recognized a command group upon seeing it.  Everyone else in the walker army was on foot and moving.  The Night King and his crew were initially on horseback and observing from a distance.  She's been involved in battles, she should know by this point one would think.  Heck, even just by common sense process of deduction as to who is important and who is not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2017, 06:59:41 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 22, 2017, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:20:42 PM
The rock didn't break the ice so they realized it was frozen over. As for not burning big papa ice king, dani didn't know he was the leader, or what killing him would do. She took out the walkers closest to the group.
Even if she didn't explicitly know what the Night King looked like, it seems she should have recognized a command group upon seeing it.  Everyone else in the walker army was on foot and moving.  The Night King and his crew were initially on horseback and observing from a distance.  She's been involved in battles, she should know by this point one would think.  Heck, even just by common sense process of deduction as to who is important and who is not.

:rolleyes: If she kills the Night King the series is as good as over and they have 1.5 seasons to fill out still. That was the only reason and there is no point in running a debriefing analysis on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 22, 2017, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Um but then the one guy lobbed a snowball and they decided to hell with the thin ice?
it was a rock.  The rock bounced midway through the lake indicating the ice would likely hold their weight now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 22, 2017, 07:17:49 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:20:42 PM
The rock didn't break the ice so they realized it was frozen over. As for not burning big papa ice king, dani didn't know he was the leader, or what killing him would do. She took out the walkers closest to the group.
he's immune to fire
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 22, 2017, 07:22:32 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 22, 2017, 04:57:39 AM
What confuses me more is the status of the Vale and Riverlands.
So...the Vale is part of the North now? It's independent? Its still officially under Cersei?
The Vale is allied to the North, since they're loyal to Littlefinger their nominal leader under the inept boy.  if the boy ordered Lf killed, they would still do it, I mean, but he kinda delegated all military matters to him, so...

Sansa said they came for her, they were loyal to her, but I think she's in for a rude awakening.

Quote
One of them was left behind however.
Why?
He was turned by another of the Walkers.  It was quite convenient that was the only one in the group.

Quote
Why would he happen to have one made by another walker with him?
He didn't think he'd meet a skilled warrior but poor tactician equipped with Valyrian steel +10 vs undead.  ;)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 22, 2017, 07:23:57 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 22, 2017, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:20:42 PM
The rock didn't break the ice so they realized it was frozen over. As for not burning big papa ice king, dani didn't know he was the leader, or what killing him would do. She took out the walkers closest to the group.
Even if she didn't explicitly know what the Night King looked like, it seems she should have recognized a command group upon seeing it.  Everyone else in the walker army was on foot and moving.  The Night King and his crew were initially on horseback and observing from a distance.  She's been involved in battles, she should know by this point one would think.  Heck, even just by common sense process of deduction as to who is important and who is not.
If she doesn't know the zombies die when the Walker dies, she concentrates on the immediate danger to Jon and his team, the zombies close to them, so she unfroze the lake, burning the troops in the process.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 22, 2017, 07:24:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 22, 2017, 06:59:41 AM
:rolleyes: If she kills the Night King
they can only be killed by Valyrian steel.  And maybe dragon glass.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 22, 2017, 07:26:51 AM
Quote from: viper37 on August 22, 2017, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on August 21, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Um but then the one guy lobbed a snowball and they decided to hell with the thin ice?
it was a rock.  The rock bounced midway through the lake indicating the ice would likely hold their weight now.

Not convinced I would make that deduction. ice can hold small rock does not equal ice can hold zombie horde
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 22, 2017, 07:32:10 AM
It was more ice can hold rock - hey, what if zombies go across in smaller numbers. At first one at a time and increasing from there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 22, 2017, 09:19:44 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 21, 2017, 05:20:42 PM
The rock didn't break the ice so they realized it was frozen over.

Good to see the writers mining Disney's Ice Age for script ideas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 22, 2017, 10:35:46 AM
(https://i.redd.it/biwbobcll9hz.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 22, 2017, 10:39:44 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 22, 2017, 12:52:36 PM
Streaming the episode right now.  Thought the red shirts would last just a *little* longer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 23, 2017, 03:37:29 PM
One more thing about that last episode. So there they are stranded on that rock on the ice, and they are very cold, right?


Yet, they have a guy who can light his sword on fire.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 23, 2017, 03:44:59 PM
Isn't it just a bit of razzle dazzle and ye old lighter fluid? I can't imagine that provides much heat :D .

The chains though, do they just carry around giant anchor chains in case?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on August 23, 2017, 04:18:06 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 23, 2017, 03:44:59 PM

The chains though, do they just carry around giant anchor chains in case?

I also wondered how they got it around the dragons head. Earlier in the episode all the zombies sank when hitting the water, and those who had time to stop avoided it against orders. Suddenly they can swim and handle heavy chains on the bottom of the lake?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 23, 2017, 06:22:11 PM
(https://media0dk-a.akamaihd.net/29/37/cbba835bf46fd9b29706c6c0fbcf16d8.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 24, 2017, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 23, 2017, 03:44:59 PM
The chains though, do they just carry around giant anchor chains in case?
Maybe it was a trap.  They had chains, and the Night King had exactly 3 spears, for 3 dragons.

I thought the one zombie who survided the Walker's death was a slight scenaristic failure, but what if that was totally convenient to give them the illusion they captured one and bring Daenerys to the rescue?  Worst case scenario, they freeze, die and join the army.  Best case, he gets 3 dragons.

Also, I don't think they can swim.  But they can walk.  They don't need to breathe.  So they just fall down with the chains, tie it down, let the others to the work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 10:38:20 AM
I don't think the presence of chains in the army of the dead was the least plausible plot element present.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 24, 2017, 10:42:43 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 10:38:20 AM
I don't think the presence of chains in the army of the dead was the least plausible plot element present.
there many things that didn't add up.  I'm trying to have faith that it was on purpose.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on August 24, 2017, 11:43:50 AM
I wonder if the chains could be explained away as part of siege equipment for the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on August 24, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
And it's not unreasonable to suppose they heard about the Dragons, and came prepared.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 01:29:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 24, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
And it's not unreasonable to suppose they heard about the Dragons, and came prepared.

Or that the final scene takes place much later, after somebody rode back to get a shitload of chains.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 24, 2017, 02:20:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 01:29:15 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 24, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
And it's not unreasonable to suppose they heard about the Dragons, and came prepared.

Or that the final scene takes place much later, after somebody rode back to get a shitload of chains.

Rode back....where?

Of course, we probably should not think too much about what kind of infrastructure, support, and societal structures and foundations undead armies might have at their disposal.

Like, who makes their weapons? Are there Night King moms and dads and civilians out there somewhere? Are there those blue eyed blacksmiths out there somewhere to be diverted from making shitty weapons for zombies to making giant chains? And miners for the ore needed? What do they all eat, anyway?

What is taking them so damn long, by the way? Seems like they've been marching south for...years and years now? The Nights Watch rode out from the wall, fucked around for a while, ran into them, rode back to Crastors, had a mutiny, stumbled back to the wall...and that all happened, according to the age of Gilly's child, literally years ago. It would seem that even at the slow, shambling pace of the walkin dead, they should have reached the wall by now.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 02:33:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 24, 2017, 02:20:42 PM
Rode back....where?

If you need a specific place, then I'll say Hardhome.  The chains were what the Wildlings used to move the logs they built their palisade out of.

QuoteOf course, we probably should not think too much about what kind of infrastructure, support, and societal structures and foundations undead armies might have at their disposal.

Probably, but we shouldn't assume that just showing them with some chains is some grievous plot hole.  There are plenty of actual plot holes without stretchig for this one.

QuoteLike, who makes their weapons? Are there Night King moms and dads and civilians out there somewhere? Are there those blue eyed blacksmiths out there somewhere to be diverted from making shitty weapons for zombies to making giant chains? And miners for the ore needed? What do they all eat, anyway?

The Night King weapons?  They are made out of ice that has been magically infused to be super-cold and super-sharp.

QuoteWhat is taking them so damn long, by the way? Seems like they've been marching south for...years and years now? The Nights Watch rode out from the wall, fucked around for a while, ran into them, rode back to Crastors, had a mutiny, stumbled back to the wall...and that all happened, according to the age of Gilly's child, literally years ago. It would seem that even at the slow, shambling pace of the walkin dead, they should have reached the wall by now.

Maybe they are "recruiting" by visiting all the graveyards and whatnot, as well as killing off and thus "recruiting" stragglers from the Wildlings, Thenn, etc.  They have no need to go to the wall until they can destroy it, which they cannot do until they have their dragon.  Remember, the Night King is a greenseer, too (and might well be Bran).  The whole way they dealt with the Magnificent Seven tells us that that was a trap to kill and thus recruit a dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 02:36:03 PM
Oh, but as long as we are on plot holes, why the fuck does Jon not take a shitload of dragonglass arrows north with him?  What's the point of mining it and making weapons if you are not going to use them?

Jon and company having dragonglass arrows could easily have been used to explain why the White Walkers did not over-run the MS on the island.  Then, it would have been a surprise that this was all a trap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 25, 2017, 07:42:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 24, 2017, 02:20:42 PM
Of course, we probably should not think too much about what kind of infrastructure, support, and societal structures and foundations undead armies might have at their disposal.
here's an undead village :P
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AXPTCHRl7i4/hqdefault.jpg)

Quote
What is taking them so damn long, by the way? Seems like they've been marching south for...years and years now?
Yeah, years.

QuoteThe Nights Watch rode out from the wall, fucked around for a while, ran into them,
It was only a small group, not the whole army.  In the first episode, the 3 guys from the Nightwatch stumble onto them too.


Quoterode back to Crastors, had a mutiny, stumbled back to the wall...and that all happened, according to the age of Gilly's child, literally years ago. It would seem that even at the slow, shambling pace of the walkin dead, they should have reached the wall by now.
I don't think they go for a straigth line. :)

We know they're going around, transforming any living being they can inton zombies (Hardhome).  And it seems they also convert animals too.  And they're raising babies (Crastor), I doubt they use actual babies for the fight, even zombified, they don't seem that useful, so maybe they grow into walker?  I've no idea at what speed though. So maybe, it's like Moses walk in the desert, they are simply waiting for their army to grow.

Since we know they are linked to Winter, wich is more magical than natural in this land, it might be that some magic is needed, for winter to grow, before they can fully advance on the wall.  Or it may be they are searching for something, we just don't know (the Horn of something in the books, but never alluded to in the series).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 25, 2017, 07:52:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 24, 2017, 02:36:03 PM
Oh, but as long as we are on plot holes, why the fuck does Jon not take a shitload of dragonglass arrows north with him?  What's the point of mining it and making weapons if you are not going to use them?

Jon and company having dragonglass arrows could easily have been used to explain why the White Walkers did not over-run the MS on the island.  Then, it would have been a surprise that this was all a trap.
I figured it wasn't ready yet.  It would have been a much better use of Gendry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 25, 2017, 09:38:09 AM
I thought the dragon glass only killed the white walkers and not the zombie horde? but I could be misremembering.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 25, 2017, 10:24:43 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2017, 09:38:09 AM
I thought the dragon glass only killed the white walkers and not the zombie horde? but I could be misremembering.
It ain't clear:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragonglass
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonglass
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 25, 2017, 11:42:59 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 25, 2017, 09:38:09 AM
I thought the dragon glass only killed the white walkers and not the zombie horde? but I could be misremembering.

Regular weapons can kill zombies (though I doubt arrows would do much to them). 

Still, they know they will be going up against walkers.  Why not have the weapon that is effective against them?

And did anyone else think that there were too few walkers at the big battle?  If their main army only has five White Walkers with it, maybe they only number something less than a dozen.  With such limited numbers, it is strange that the Night King would sacrifice one to bait his trap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 25, 2017, 11:53:29 AM
yeah, the number of white walkers seems to be off. The knight king is several thousand years old, and assuming subsequent walkers are also immortal there should be a lot more. and even if they aren't immortal, Crastor had a ton of daughters, so he should have had more sons too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 25, 2017, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 25, 2017, 11:42:59 AM
And did anyone else think that there were too few walkers at the big battle?  If their main army only has five White Walkers with it, maybe they only number something less than a dozen.  With such limited numbers, it is strange that the Night King would sacrifice one to bait his trap.
He might have more behind him.  We didn't see any giants this time, and we know he has some, as per Bran's vision. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 25, 2017, 01:01:37 PM
I don't really think it was a trap anyway. More taking advantage of an opportunity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 25, 2017, 02:03:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 25, 2017, 01:01:37 PM
I don't really think it was a trap anyway. More taking advantage of an opportunity.

It's possible that it wasn't a trap, and just a large series of coincidences.  If the dragon ends up being responsible for breaking the Wall, though, I don't think the coincidence theory will stand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 26, 2017, 05:36:31 AM
Probably less break the wall and more breath ice to freeze the sea and let them go around IMO.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 26, 2017, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 26, 2017, 05:36:31 AM
Probably less break the wall and more breath ice to freeze the sea and let them go around IMO.

That's possible, but
(1) if freezing the sea was all it took, the Night King could have done that thousands of years ago,
(2) the dragons are special because they are magical, and so one is presumably needed to overcome some other magic.  That implies the Wall
and
(3) having the crisis come from freezing some water would be anticlimactic to the max.  The Wall is the Chekhov's Gun of the book and TV series; it wouldn't exist except to be destroyed.

We'll know tomorrow, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 27, 2017, 09:28:10 PM
Kind of displeased with how little finger went out. And poor Jorah, forever friend zoned.

And now we wait a year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 27, 2017, 09:32:00 PM
No lie, I thought for a second or two they were going to kill Jaime.

Short of that, no surprises this time around. Can't wait for the Targaryencest memes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 09:37:18 PM
I am the boss.  :showoff:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 27, 2017, 09:38:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 09:37:18 PM
I am the boss.  :showoff:

Yes, you outsmarted tyr. Congrats on the great achievement.



:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 27, 2017, 09:38:27 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 09:37:18 PM
I am the boss.  :showoff:

Yes, you outsmarted tyr. Congrats on the great achievement.



:P

He wasn't the only one who doubted me. :contract:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 27, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I am waiting for Arya to show up with Baelish's face...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:01:41 PM
So, was Jorah trying to get Dani to fly rather than sail with Jon because he knew boatsex would be the result of sailing?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:02:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I am waiting for Arya to show up with Baelish's face...

... to kill Cersei?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 27, 2017, 10:04:25 PM
Probably. He's the guy friend that gives bad advice to cockblock (clamjam?). Also, what was tyrion's deal? Is he worried about being replaced as the calming voice?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 27, 2017, 10:07:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:02:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I am waiting for Arya to show up with Baelish's face...

... to kill Cersei?

Little Arya can't kill cersei, that's Jamie's job.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:07:59 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 27, 2017, 10:04:25 PM
Also, what was tyrion's deal? Is he worried about being replaced as the calming voice?

Yes, obviously.  Dani has a nasty habit of thinking that it is okay to burn people to death, which just reminds people of Dear Old Dad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 27, 2017, 10:15:05 PM
http://www.theonion.com/article/game-thrones-audience-disappointed-season-finales--56773?ref=hvper.com

Quote'Game Of Thrones' Audience Disappointed By Season Finale's Bland, Uninspired Incest

:)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:17:20 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 27, 2017, 10:07:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:02:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I am waiting for Arya to show up with Baelish's face...

... to kill Cersei?

Little Arya can't kill cersei, that's Jamie's job.

Not sure how that can happen, now that Jamie has left King's Landing for the north.  Cersei is on Arya's list, and, now, Arya has no pressing business than completing her list.

Of course, it would be even more fitting if Arya uses Jamie's face to kill Cersei and order the Lannister forces north.  We know that a Faceless Man does not have to take the face of a dead person, because J'aquen used Arya's face.

My prediction is that Dani's forces try to break the siege of Winterfell and fail the first time (with the death of a dragon and either Jon or Dani - probably the latter) and that the Lannister reinforcements make the difference in a second battle.

I can't see how Cleganebowl happens now. But we know it happens.  This episode just confirms it.  Could Cersei and The Mountain come north?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 27, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I am waiting for Arya to show up with Baelish's face...
Is there really a need to?  He's burned the bridges with the Lannisters, his Knights of the Vale know he is dead, everyone in the North knows he betrayed Ned Stark, what would be his use?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 27, 2017, 10:28:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:01:41 PM
So, was Jorah trying to get Dani to fly rather than sail with Jon because he knew boatsex would be the result of sailing?  :hmm:
It might have crossed his mind, but he's too loyal and too honorable for this.  I think his concern was genuine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 27, 2017, 10:39:35 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:17:20 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 27, 2017, 10:07:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:02:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 27, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I am waiting for Arya to show up with Baelish's face...

... to kill Cersei?

Little Arya can't kill cersei, that's Jamie's job.

Not sure how that can happen, now that Jamie has left King's Landing for the north.  Cersei is on Arya's list, and, now, Arya has no pressing business than completing her list.

Of course, it would be even more fitting if Arya uses Jamie's face to kill Cersei and order the Lannister forces north.  We know that a Faceless Man does not have to take the face of a dead person, because J'aquen used Arya's face.

My prediction is that Dani's forces try to break the siege of Winterfell and fail the first time (with the death of a dragon and either Jon or Dani - probably the latter) and that the Lannister reinforcements make the difference in a second battle.

I can't see how Cleganebowl happens now. But we know it happens.  This episode just confirms it.  Could Cersei and The Mountain come north?

I think j'aquen taking aryas face was more arya hallucinating from the poison then anything. Arya literally has a bag of faces, if she didn't need dead people why carry around the faces?

As for her list, she's not that good at fulfilling them. She's killed two? Neither were planned, she stumbled across them. Jamie will kill his sister, perhaps to stop the double cross stab in the back, or because it cost them a battle with the dead. Then he'll probably kill himself. It fits the frogs prophecy and fits cersie inability to see the big picture as she focused on the wrong brother.

I think Tyrion will die too. So all the great houses will be estinguished (except the eyrie, but the kid is retarded and might trip out the window).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 28, 2017, 12:07:52 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 27, 2017, 10:17:20 PM
We know that a Faceless Man does not have to take the face of a dead person, because J'aquen used Arya's face.
J'aquen is level 12.  Arya is only level 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grallon on August 28, 2017, 04:43:52 AM
Meh episode, except for the finale bit - awesome use frostfire.  Anyone else is bummed they didn't even bother to cast another actor for Rhaegar?  They re-used the guy who played Viserion in S1. :thumbsdown:



G.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 28, 2017, 07:20:18 AM
Quote from: Grallon on August 28, 2017, 04:43:52 AM
Meh episode, except for the finale bit - awesome use frostfire.  Anyone else is bummed they didn't even bother to cast another actor for Rhaegar?  They re-used the guy who played Viserion in S1. :thumbsdown:

No they didn't: https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Who-Plays-Rhaegar-Targaryen-Game-Thrones-43942732
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 28, 2017, 09:38:50 AM
Grallon thinks all Valyrians look alike.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 28, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
There are some similarities in the side profile (the nose I guess). Good casting for a brother, but not the prettiest guy in westeros like he should be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 28, 2017, 10:25:01 AM
Yeah, I also thought they brought back the Viserys actor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 28, 2017, 10:44:44 AM
Harry Lloyd deserves better than you people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 28, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 28, 2017, 10:44:44 AM
Harry Lloyd deserves better than you people.

Chaplin fans, I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on August 28, 2017, 12:34:02 PM
Mixing the Aegon Targaryen reveal with the incest scene was a bit gratuitous. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on August 29, 2017, 04:16:34 PM
(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ajNVB8x_700b.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2017, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: Zanza on August 28, 2017, 12:34:02 PM
Mixing the Aegon Targaryen reveal with the incest scene was a bit gratuitous.

You're really good in the sack aunt Daenaryis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 31, 2017, 12:45:40 PM
I managed to avoid any significant spoilers and watched last night.
Hurray.
Though meh.
Things went much as expected. Worse even. So....hurried. Trudging. Shades of BSG finale.

I mean. Jon's real name isn't Jon? Duh.
Though at least Bran talking to Sam settles the "What if Jon never knows" thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 31, 2017, 01:05:35 PM
I don't know why they thought the big reveal should be the same big reveal as last year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on August 31, 2017, 01:20:15 PM
10% of show watchers got it the first time. Maybe 50% got it this time.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 01:43:57 PM
So how do they convince anyone that Jon is really Aegon?

It seems like pretty tenuous evidence from the perspective of the noble houses of Westeros. Sounds pretty damn fishy.

The only actual evidence is this "diary" of a High Septon in posession of a disgraced Citadel student and known BFF of Jon Snow, and the word of a crazy crippled boy who happens to be his half brother.

I guess they could find Ned's buddy who was with him, he is a noble at least, albeit some swamp noble who has no real standing, and again, a known friend of House Stark...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on August 31, 2017, 02:01:33 PM
Do they need to?

As soon as he shows up riding whichever dragon didn't die he's a de facto Targaryen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 31, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
Only Targaryians can stick their hands in dragons' nostrils, no?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on August 31, 2017, 02:10:55 PM
The only ones they need to convince are Jon and Dany.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 31, 2017, 02:42:13 PM
I wonder if that means Jon will abdicate the title of King in the North in favor of Sansa.  She certainly has more on the ball than Jon, who let's face it, is kind of dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on August 31, 2017, 02:43:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 01:43:57 PM
So how do they convince anyone that Jon is really Aegon?
This succession business won't be settled until the White Walkers and Cersei are dealth with.
By this time, whoever is left might not just care anymore who has a legitimate claim to the throne or not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on August 31, 2017, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 01:43:57 PM
So how do they convince anyone that Jon is really Aegon?

It seems like pretty tenuous evidence from the perspective of the noble houses of Westeros. Sounds pretty damn fishy.

The only actual evidence is this "diary" of a High Septon in posession of a disgraced Citadel student and known BFF of Jon Snow, and the word of a crazy crippled boy who happens to be his half brother.

I guess they could find Ned's buddy who was with him, he is a noble at least, albeit some swamp noble who has no real standing, and again, a known friend of House Stark...

Lord Random: "So this Stark kid claims his bastard brother is the rightful king? Ha! A bit coincidental isn't it? If it were up to me to decide who was what I'd split the seven kingdoms amongst my children. Ridiculous."
Bran: "Lord Random....what was your friend's name? The stable boy... the one with whom you were...quite intimate.... the one whom you bent over for every Thursday evening...."
Lord Random: "....what are you talking about...heh.....heh...."
Bran: "You know Lord Random. The one your father sent away to the wall for stealing..... But he didn't really steal did he.... it was all to avoid a scandal..... I wonder if the tree in the forest still has your initials carved into it?...I wonder what would happen if people found out...."
TV show Bran is particularly powerful as he isn't reliant on the trees as book Brain is.



Plus with the way things are going the old order seems set to crack quite a bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 01:43:57 PM
So how do they convince anyone that Jon is really Aegon?

It seems like pretty tenuous evidence from the perspective of the noble houses of Westeros. Sounds pretty damn fishy.

The only actual evidence is this "diary" of a High Septon in posession of a disgraced Citadel student and known BFF of Jon Snow, and the word of a crazy crippled boy who happens to be his half brother.

I guess they could find Ned's buddy who was with him, he is a noble at least, albeit some swamp noble who has no real standing, and again, a known friend of House Stark...

Once he's on a dragon he doesn't have to convince anyone. like Cersei once said, "sometimes power is power"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:05:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 31, 2017, 02:42:13 PM
I wonder if that means Jon will abdicate the title of King in the North in favor of Sansa.  She certainly has more on the ball than Jon, who let's face it, is kind of dumb.

we already abdicated as king of the north. or at least demoted himself down to Warden. But yeah, he'll probably give it to Sansa (who will probably marry gendry)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 01:43:57 PM
So how do they convince anyone that Jon is really Aegon?

It seems like pretty tenuous evidence from the perspective of the noble houses of Westeros. Sounds pretty damn fishy.

The only actual evidence is this "diary" of a High Septon in posession of a disgraced Citadel student and known BFF of Jon Snow, and the word of a crazy crippled boy who happens to be his half brother.

I guess they could find Ned's buddy who was with him, he is a noble at least, albeit some swamp noble who has no real standing, and again, a known friend of House Stark...

Once he's on a dragon he doesn't have to convince anyone. like Cersei once said, "sometimes power is power"


In which case it doesn't matter that he is the righful heir at all.

It either matters, in which case it is interesting to think how they will convince everyone, or it doesn't, in which case who cares that he is Rhaegar son and the entire thing is pointless.

Of course it DOES matter, legitimacy is critically important in these societies, and the show and books have made that very clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:22:11 PM
it'll matter to Dani in that it'll show her character. is she trying to get the crown because it's rightfully hers, or because she wants power. The north should side with Jon (if it becomes an issue), dorn is effectively leaderless as is the high garden. the vale will side with sansa who will side with jon (even if only to get the warden of the north title). Doesn't matter who the lannisters pick because they're losing the war. its a moot point as to whether the legitimacy is believed, I think.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 31, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
The Vale is effectively leaderless as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:32:24 PM
true, but they have robin and the general dude who I would assume is now the in charge until robin comes of age. So i would assume they follow Sansa's lead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 31, 2017, 03:35:54 PM
Just struck me we haven't heard anything about the crusty Riverlands uncle in ages.  Rumblefish or whatever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Jacob on August 31, 2017, 03:42:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 03:18:31 PM
In which case it doesn't matter that he is the righful heir at all.

It either matters, in which case it is interesting to think how they will convince everyone, or it doesn't, in which case who cares that he is Rhaegar son and the entire thing is pointless.

Of course it DOES matter, legitimacy is critically important in these societies, and the show and books have made that very clear.

I tend to think that the way it works is that there's some threshold to pass which requires a combination of claim and power, and having a strong hand in one can compensate for a weaker hand in the other.

So, say, they can construct a somewhat convincing claim "hey look, he's not harmed by dragon fire, here's an old book that says it's him, in this person we can sort of agree would know says he's the true heir" that's not going to convince very many people if he has no armies and no support from anyone powerful. It'll convince a lot more people if it's backed by a powerful personal army as well as many other nobles.

A flimsy almost bald-faced fabricated claim will be accepted if it's convenient to save any given power-player's hide and/or advance their agenda. But  someone with a flimsy claim will be more vulnerable later, if things turn against them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:43:34 PM
was it confirmed the blackfish had a second miraculous escape?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 31, 2017, 03:42:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 31, 2017, 03:18:31 PM
In which case it doesn't matter that he is the righful heir at all.

It either matters, in which case it is interesting to think how they will convince everyone, or it doesn't, in which case who cares that he is Rhaegar son and the entire thing is pointless.

Of course it DOES matter, legitimacy is critically important in these societies, and the show and books have made that very clear.

I tend to think that the way it works is that there's some threshold to pass which requires a combination of claim and power, and having a strong hand in one can compensate for a weaker hand in the other.

So, say, they can construct a somewhat convincing claim "hey look, he's not harmed by dragon fire, here's an old book that says it's him, in this person we can sort of agree would know says he's the true heir" that's not going to convince very many people if he has no armies and no support from anyone powerful. It'll convince a lot more people if it's backed by a powerful personal army as well as many other nobles.

A flimsy almost bald-faced fabricated claim will be accepted if it's convenient to save any given power-player's hide and/or advance their agenda. But  someone with a flimsy claim will be more vulnerable later, if things turn against them.

Even Robert (who has a flimsy claim from his grandmother or great grandmother) told Ned he could have had the crown if he had sat on the throne in the first season/book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on August 31, 2017, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:22:11 PM
it'll matter to Dani in that it'll show her character. is she trying to get the crown because it's rightfully hers, or because she wants power. The north should side with Jon (if it becomes an issue), dorn is effectively leaderless as is the high garden. the vale will side with sansa who will side with jon (even if only to get the warden of the north title). Doesn't matter who the lannisters pick because they're losing the war. its a moot point as to whether the legitimacy is believed, I think.

How exactly does Targaryn succession work anyways?  Since they're a row of brother-sister marriages, did the brother-King and sister-Queen (each of whom had identical claim to the throne) rule as equals?  Or is it strictly patriarchal?  And in any event Daenarys was the daughter of the last king, King Aerys.  Jon Snow is merely the grandson of the last king - does that make a difference?

But even if patriarchal, the Targaryen's valued purity of blood.  Daenarys is a pure Targaryen, while Jon is half-Stark, and doesn't have the classic Valyrian features. 

All of which is to say - why is it said that Jon has the better claim than Dany to the Targaryen succession?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:43:34 PM
was it confirmed the blackfish had a second miraculous escape?

Nah. In the books, he's quite alive. In the show, he seems to have been killed off-screen at the Siege of Riverrun.

So, they've left it open if they want to bring him back for a last hurrah. Ditto for anything to do with Edmure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 04:00:28 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 31, 2017, 03:52:38 PM
Targaryen's

Seriously, why do you hate everything that's good and holy?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on August 31, 2017, 04:03:20 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 31, 2017, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:22:11 PM
it'll matter to Dani in that it'll show her character. is she trying to get the crown because it's rightfully hers, or because she wants power. The north should side with Jon (if it becomes an issue), dorn is effectively leaderless as is the high garden. the vale will side with sansa who will side with jon (even if only to get the warden of the north title). Doesn't matter who the lannisters pick because they're losing the war. its a moot point as to whether the legitimacy is believed, I think.

How exactly does Targaryn succession work anyways?  Since they're a row of brother-sister marriages, did the brother-King and sister-Queen (each of whom had identical claim to the throne) rule as equals?  Or is it strictly patriarchal?  And in any event Daenarys was the daughter of the last king, King Aerys.  Jon Snow is merely the grandson of the last king - does that make a difference?

But even if patriarchal, the Targaryen's valued purity of blood.  Daenarys is a pure Targaryen, while Jon is half-Stark, and doesn't have the classic Valyrian features. 

All of which is to say - why is it said that Jon has the better claim than Dany to the Targaryen succession?

I mentioned I wasn't 100% sure about how hierarchy works, especially with the sequence of deaths, but the targs have married out before but the fact that it's even mentioned leads to  believe jon is the rightful heir. Jon's great-great and great-great-great grandfathers married other noble houses, so it's not unheard of. Rhaeger himself married twice to non targs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 04:07:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 31, 2017, 03:52:38 PM
How exactly does Targaryn succession work anyways?  Since they're a row of brother-sister marriages, did the brother-King and sister-Queen (each of whom had identical claim to the throne) rule as equals?  Or is it strictly patriarchal?  And in any event Daenarys was the daughter of the last king, King Aerys.  Jon Snow is merely the grandson of the last king - does that make a difference?

Eldest son and his line inherit. This has been established for quite some time thanks to the Dance of Dragons (Targaryen Civil War) that takes place far in advance of the show's timeline. The crowned heads didn't rule equally--the male was always the one invested with power, even if one of the women had substantial say in matters. This is true of all the Seven Kingdoms save for Dorne. Jon being the grandson makes no difference--he's the eldest son of the eldest son of the previous king. He has precedence in succession.

QuoteBut even if patriarchal, the Targaryen's valued purity of blood.  Daenarys is a pure Targaryen, while Jon is half-Stark, and doesn't have the classic Valyrian features. 

All of which is to say - why is it said that Jon has the better claim than Dany to the Targaryen succession?

If Jon is "half Stark" then others in the Targaryen dynasty are "half-Highhtower" and "half-Velaryon". The half has never mattered--it's descent from Aegon the Conqueror that matters to a large extent. Missing the key features of Valyrians is, however, not a good thing. But affinity with dragons will likely fix that...

See above for why Jon has the better claim.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on August 31, 2017, 06:37:04 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 31, 2017, 03:05:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 31, 2017, 02:42:13 PM
I wonder if that means Jon will abdicate the title of King in the North in favor of Sansa.  She certainly has more on the ball than Jon, who let's face it, is kind of dumb.

we already abdicated as king of the north. or at least demoted himself down to Warden. But yeah, he'll probably give it to Sansa (who will probably marry gendry)


I suspect the fact that Sansa and Tyrion are still technically married will come up.  My guess is that marriage will serve to unite the houses to Stark and Lannister.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 31, 2017, 06:46:55 PM
Good one Raz. 

It helps that he didn't rape her.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on August 31, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
I wonder whether the extinguishing of so many of the great houses will usher in a political system considerably different from what went before, perhaps more like the Night's Watch, and where e.g. union of houses means much less. It'd also have the advantage of being flattering to our modern sensibilities.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on August 31, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 31, 2017, 03:52:38 PM
How exactly does Targaryn succession work anyways?  Since they're a row of brother-sister marriages, did the brother-King and sister-Queen (each of whom had identical claim to the throne) rule as equals?  Or is it strictly patriarchal?  And in any event Daenarys was the daughter of the last king, King Aerys.  Jon Snow is merely the grandson of the last king - does that make a difference?

As pointed out above, Jon inherited the status of crown prince with the death of his father.  Daenarys only had a claim based on the presumption that all of Rhaegar's children were dead.

QuoteBut even if patriarchal, the Targaryen's valued purity of blood.  Daenarys is a pure Targaryen, while Jon is half-Stark, and doesn't have the classic Valyrian features. 

Daenarys wasn't of "pure blood" either, since the Targaryens had married outside the family for generations.  Dani is as much Blackwood as she is Targaryen.

QuoteAll of which is to say - why is it said that Jon has the better claim than Dany to the Targaryen succession?

Because the rules of succession say his claim is better, if he was a legitimate son of Rhaegar.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 10:31:38 PM
Quote from: Camerus on August 31, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
I wonder whether the extinguishing of so many of the great houses will usher in a political system considerably different from what went before, perhaps more like the Night's Watch, and where e.g. union of houses means much less. It'd also have the advantage of being flattering to our modern sensibilities.

I think it's highly unlikely the Westeros that is standing (if any is) after the series concludes is a Westeros with a strong, feudal system akin to what it had before the War of the Five Kings. Too much chaos, too much turbulence, too many dead nobles, too much toppling of the great houses, too little proof that the system can actually protect its people.

Perhaps the entire realm breaks into its constituent kingdoms again? Or perhaps a more heavily-restricted nobility along the lines of what Rhaegar wanted is in the cards?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on August 31, 2017, 10:53:27 PM
I'm going to go with anywhere from an elected ruler like in TNW to a Magna Carta-like monarchy. Some reasons the hereditary monarchy might end is it solves the problem of mad Targaryens and unfit men like Robert, the fact that Jon and Dany probably can't have kids and will need to make arrangements, addresses the recurring theme of incest, and also because other governmental systems have been shown to be possible nearby or even within Westeros (Free Cities, NW, etc).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 31, 2017, 10:56:33 PM
I think the system goes into permanent stasis because no way Martin publishes more material for that part of the timeline even if by some miracle of modern science and cholesterol reduction, he manages to finish the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 10:58:49 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 31, 2017, 10:56:33 PM
I think the system goes into permanent stasis because no way Martin publishes more material for that part of the timeline even if by some miracle of modern science and cholesterol reduction, he manages to finish the series.

If you're bored of the topic, why comment?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on August 31, 2017, 11:09:31 PM
Touchy, touchy
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on August 31, 2017, 11:44:06 PM
If Martin follows the historical cues of the 16th century, on which he has explicitly based large parts of his  story, there should be a move toward greater, "absolute", power of the monarch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on August 31, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
That would be a logical political result actually.

Hey we know we are getting at least one more book. He has to be close to finishing that damn thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on August 31, 2017, 11:44:06 PM
If Martin follows the historical cues of the 16th century, on which he has explicitly based large parts of his  story, there should be a move toward greater, "absolute", power of the monarch.

White Walker Enlightened Absolutism!!! :w00t:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 01, 2017, 03:39:00 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 31, 2017, 10:58:49 PM
If you're bored of the topic, why comment?

Harsh toke dude.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on September 01, 2017, 04:14:57 AM
So I wonder if it will be declared misogynist when a strong female lead for 7 seasons will be cast aside as the ruler of Westeros and will only sit on the throne on the merit of marrying the male king :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on September 01, 2017, 05:34:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 01, 2017, 04:14:57 AM
So I wonder if it will be declared misogynist when a strong female lead for 7 seasons will be cast aside as the ruler of Westeros and will only sit on the throne on the merit of marrying the male king :P

One of Jon and Dani will be dead by the time Season 8 ends, so the issue is moot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on September 01, 2017, 06:19:18 AM
Good point
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on September 01, 2017, 04:21:12 PM
Even if not they're set to hook up so who cares who is actually the monarch and who is the consort.
Though Jon quite publicly said he sees Dany as the queen, which makes things awkward now, I had previously thought the solution seemed somewhat simple with the king in the north marrying the queen in the south and their child reuniting the kingdoms.

Of course the way things are going in the north it's unlikely there will be a north at the end of things.
Sad to see the TV show seems set to go down a generic evil defeated path. I was sure there was more to the walkers than met the eye and a peace treaty would be worked out. Oh well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on September 01, 2017, 04:36:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 01, 2017, 05:34:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 01, 2017, 04:14:57 AM
So I wonder if it will be declared misogynist when a strong female lead for 7 seasons will be cast aside as the ruler of Westeros and will only sit on the throne on the merit of marrying the male king :P

One of Jon and Dani will be dead by the time Season 8 ends, so the issue is moot.

What's the thinking on this?  It seems like the entire saga has been leading up to Jon and Dany hooking up, defeating the White Walkers and re-uniting the Kingdoms.  Sure GRRM liked to throw out some headfakes, but this one has been pretty consistent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on September 01, 2017, 05:57:10 PM
I think that's far too traditional fantasy for GRRM to end on. The whole series has subverted trope after trope. No way does he use one of the biggest ones to end his story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on September 01, 2017, 06:43:55 PM
I think neither Jon or Dany get the throne. The bitter sweet ending is Cersei being the one left to reign.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on September 01, 2017, 07:03:57 PM
GRRM has said that the ending is very bittersweet, and that the story here is a repeat of past history.  Azor Ahai had to sacrifice his love in order to get the powers he needed to defeat the Night King 8,000 years ago.  One of the two lovers will have to lose the other in order to win this time around.  I'm thinking it happens on dragonback.  My guess would be that Dani is the one to die ( pregnant Dani, to boot).

Cersei will die.  The prophecy has been introduced and has been shown to be true.

I don't think the survivor of DaniJon will sit on the Iron Throne.  He or she will be too broken to want it.  Maybe Sweet Robin ends up the heir to it all, or Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 14, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
He's never going to finish the series

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8g34dz/spoilers_extended_grrm_confirms_he_has_not/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 14, 2018, 12:11:46 AM
Eh. We'll get it when we get it. I just want book 6.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 14, 2018, 01:54:21 PM
You will get book 6 for sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 14, 2018, 03:25:24 PM
You can probably write Book 6 yourself at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 14, 2018, 04:20:25 PM
at this point I just want to see how he writes himself out of the bad story lines he's started. the tv show was smart enough to just ignore them. and while I think the writing overall has gone down for the stuff outside of the books at least they were smart enough to not start down those paths.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 14, 2018, 05:30:30 PM
I probably won't read any more of the books. I'll be satisfied with the TV show finishing up, as it's covered things quite well enough for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 14, 2018, 08:24:26 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 14, 2018, 04:20:25 PM
at this point I just want to see how he writes himself out of the bad story lines he's started. the tv show was smart enough to just ignore them. and while I think the writing overall has gone down for the stuff outside of the books at least they were smart enough to not start down those paths.

Trouble with the TV show is that it took the smart storylines and made a few of them really, really dumb. I'll take the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2018, 04:50:27 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 14, 2018, 08:24:26 PM
Trouble with the TV show is that it took the smart storylines and made a few of them really, really dumb. I'll take the books.

This is true, but the percentage of really, really dumb storylines is probably still at least equal in the books.  I think Martin can't finish because he has written himself into a corner by having introduced so many story lines that he can't bring all the threads back together.  He desperately needed a good editor and some humility.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2018, 06:40:20 AM
I think he can't finish because he just isn't motivated.

He is an incredible writer, and almost certainly could figure out a way to write himself out of nearly anything. Might not be great, but I doubt it is that hard.

I think he just doesn't really want to do it, and is "distracted" by all the other little things he convinces himself he just has to do...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2018, 08:32:47 AM
There's no question that financial success has changed Martin's motivations.  He doesn't need to publish a single new book, so the publisher has no leverage over him.  However, while he is an incredible writer, even he would have some difficulty in resolving some of the poorly-thought-out threads he has introduced to his story.  Yeah, he could half-ass it if he wanted to, but he has no desire to half-ass it.  He'd rather not finish, it seems to me, than to finish the story in a way that he would find disappointing.  After all, his only motivation for writing now is to scratch the itch to write, and he can do that without bringing the story any closer to fruition.  Thus all of the side projects.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2018, 08:34:49 AM
True. I can relate. Perfectionism is a curse. Fear of failure leads to inaction et al.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
His recent comments about Tolkien not finishing the Silmarillion have pretty much sealed the conclusion I had tentatively reached half a decade ago. He will not finish ASOIAF, and he doesn't much care that he won't finish it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2018, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
His recent comments about Tolkien not finishing the Silmarillion have pretty much sealed the conclusion I had tentatively reached half a decade ago. He will not finish ASOIAF, and he doesn't much care that he won't finish it.

Though the interesting thing is that Tolkien offered the "finished" Silmarillian to his publishers before he even started the Lord of the Rings proper.  Unwin turned it down, of course.

Tolkien never really intended to "finish" the Silmarillian, because the Silmarillian was a life-long hobby, not a book.  LOTR was a part of it.  Tolkien was always polishing its different facets.  Publishing was always going to mean just selecting a portion of the whole work, polishing it up, and calling that a "book." ASOIF is different; it's more a series of books.  Unlike the Silmarillian, it could be finished.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2018, 09:04:52 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2018, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
His recent comments about Tolkien not finishing the Silmarillion have pretty much sealed the conclusion I had tentatively reached half a decade ago. He will not finish ASOIAF, and he doesn't much care that he won't finish it.

Though the interesting thing is that Tolkien offered the "finished" Silmarillian to his publishers before he even started the Lord of the Rings proper.  Unwin turned it down, of course.

Tolkien never really intended to "finish" the Silmarillian, because the Silmarillian was a life-long hobby, not a book.  LOTR was a part of it.  Tolkien was always polishing its different facets.  Publishing was always going to mean just selecting a portion of the whole work, polishing it up, and calling that a "book." ASOIF is different; it's more a series of books.  Unlike the Silmarillian, it could be finished.

Indeed. The comparison makes no sense on the face of it, but more to the point, his making the comparison pretty much tells us that he already has decided in his own head he isn't going to finish.

The Silmarillion is like an encyclopedia for Middle Earth. There is no "finishing it" per se.

The correct analogy would be to compare ASOIAF to the LOTR, which of course was finished, and is what Tolkien is remembered and loved for - nobody much cares that he didn't "finish" the Silmarillion, whatever that would mean.

But when Martin dies, he will be remembered as the brilliant author who failed to complete his lifes work, and for no really good reason other than he just decided it wasn't that important to him anymore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 15, 2018, 11:04:34 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2018, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
His recent comments about Tolkien not finishing the Silmarillion have pretty much sealed the conclusion I had tentatively reached half a decade ago. He will not finish ASOIAF, and he doesn't much care that he won't finish it.

Though the interesting thing is that Tolkien offered the "finished" Silmarillian to his publishers before he even started the Lord of the Rings proper.  Unwin turned it down, of course.

Tolkien never really intended to "finish" the Silmarillian, because the Silmarillian was a life-long hobby, not a book.  LOTR was a part of it.  Tolkien was always polishing its different facets.  Publishing was always going to mean just selecting a portion of the whole work, polishing it up, and calling that a "book." ASOIF is different; it's more a series of books.  Unlike the Silmarillian, it could be finished.

It's Silmarillion, not marillian....and interestingly enough there is a character named Marillion in ASOIAF....hmmmmm.......
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2018, 07:18:24 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 14, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
He's never going to finish the series

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8g34dz/spoilers_extended_grrm_confirms_he_has_not/

Can Tim reverse jinx something?

Anyway, while I am rooting for the series to be finished, I think I will just be grateful for whatever we get. Or maybe Brandon Sanderson will finish it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 18, 2018, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 15, 2018, 08:34:49 AM
True. I can relate. Perfectionism is a curse. Fear of failure leads to inaction et al.

I don't think perfectionism is truly his issue though as if it was that, he would have added so much useless bloat to his later books / rather than keep additional characters and their points of view to side projects.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 18, 2018, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2018, 07:18:24 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 14, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
He's never going to finish the series

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8g34dz/spoilers_extended_grrm_confirms_he_has_not/

Can Tim reverse jinx something?

Anyway, while I am rooting for the series to be finished, I think I will just be grateful for whatever we get. Or maybe Brandon Sanderson will finish it.

I suspect that once GRRM passes his estate will authorize some less-talented, but more-workmanlike to finish the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 18, 2018, 12:42:12 PM
Sanderson is more-workmanlike than GRR & also way more talented.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: garbon on May 18, 2018, 12:49:36 PM
On Sanderson, what would be a good first book of his to read? Though I listened to his podcast about writing I don't think I have read anything by him. :blush:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 18, 2018, 12:53:41 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 18, 2018, 12:42:12 PM
Sanderson is more-workmanlike than GRR & also way more talented.

Yes and noooooooooooooooooooooo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 18, 2018, 01:04:05 PM
The Final Empire or Elantris.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2018, 01:47:36 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 18, 2018, 12:42:12 PM
Sanderson is more-workmanlike than GRR & also way more talented.

Yeah, no he isn't.

Not even close to Martins talent level.

DOn't get me wrong, I really like Sanderson. He is a excellent writer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 21, 2018, 07:08:15 AM
Is he at least more talented than Robert Jordan?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2018, 07:43:58 AM
Well, yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 24, 2018, 05:11:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2018, 01:47:36 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 18, 2018, 12:42:12 PM
Sanderson is more-workmanlike than GRR & also way more talented.

Yeah, no he isn't.

Not even close to Martins talent level.

DOn't get me wrong, I really like Sanderson. He is a excellent writer.

Books 1-3 and perhaps 4, I agree with you completely.  The last efforts, not so sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 05, 2019, 09:01:29 PM
Less than six weeks to go, now, and a trailer (and breakdown):
https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/3/5/18252099/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-breakdown-questions (https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/3/5/18252099/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-breakdown-questions)

Time to start binging to bring yourselves up to speed.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on March 06, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 05, 2019, 09:01:29 PM
Less than six weeks to go, now, and a trailer (and breakdown):
https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/3/5/18252099/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-breakdown-questions (https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/3/5/18252099/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-breakdown-questions)

Time to start binging to bring yourselves up to speed.
Yeah, I'm rewatching Season 7 again.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maladict on April 13, 2019, 12:01:44 PM
Haven't watched it since early season 3, wondering if I should see how it ends and go straight into s8.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 13, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: Maladict on April 13, 2019, 12:01:44 PM
Haven't watched it since early season 3, wondering if I should see how it ends and go straight into s8.

I would not recommend that.

Quote from: Josephus on March 06, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 05, 2019, 09:01:29 PM
Less than six weeks to go, now, and a trailer (and breakdown):
https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/3/5/18252099/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-breakdown-questions (https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/3/5/18252099/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-breakdown-questions)

Time to start binging to bring yourselves up to speed.
Yeah, I'm rewatching Season 7 again.



I watched the last episodes of 5,6 and 7 to get ready, it was great fun :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 15, 2019, 03:59:21 PM
First reaction, I hope this episode isn't a image of things to come. So many scenes with awful lighting where you couldn't see what was happening.

Was kind of expecting an Aladdin/Snowman-esque dragon ride around the whole world for a minute given we've seen they can cross continents in hours.

Story wise....Why hasn't the obvious Danni-Jon marriage solution came up right away? Instead its all 'oh its treason'. That would have been a solution even with Jon just as king in the north.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 15, 2019, 08:57:40 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 15, 2019, 03:59:21 PM
Was kind of expecting an Aladdin/Snowman-esque dragon ride around the whole world for a minute given we've seen they can cross continents in hours.

This is a very common complaint and I don't understand it.  Clearly, they skipped scenes of the guys on the island standing around, bored, for the days or so it took for the ice to freeze solid again, but it clearly was a long time by the fact that they had gotten bored by the time Dani finally showed up.  Remember that this whole thing was a trap by the Night King to lure in a dragon so he could get one and destroy the wall with it.  It took as long as it took for the dragons to get there.  Arguing that it was only "hours" seems silly and just looking for things to complain about.

If you ant to complain about a plot loophole, complain about the idea that the North, where horses haven't been common, is finding fodder for 100,000 Dothraki horses in the midst of the worst winter in a thousand years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: saskganesh on April 16, 2019, 05:24:27 AM
Don't those 100,000 Dothraki have remounts too?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 16, 2019, 05:27:05 AM
It's not any better in the books, really. I mean, Khal Drogo's khalasar alone apparently had 40000 Dothraki (plus non-fighting members), and their diet is horse meat. Someone on youtube calculated that they'd eat all the horses in the Dothraki Sea in a couple of months.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on April 16, 2019, 05:35:33 AM
At least Sansa made a reference to Winterfell's stacking limits in this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on April 16, 2019, 06:27:57 AM
I don't quite understand why everyone except Sansa is trusting Cersei at her word now.  :huh:


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 16, 2019, 06:30:34 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 16, 2019, 06:27:57 AM
I don't quite understand why everyone except Sansa is trusting Cersei at her word now.  :huh:

It's a plot thing.

Then again everyone but Churchill trusted Hitler in the 30s so there's that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 16, 2019, 12:40:47 PM
But Jamie's there now to tell them not to trust the bitch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Savonarola on April 19, 2019, 07:07:35 AM
HBO just released a monster spoiler  :mad::

Respect is Coming (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ppLtHbag4)

;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 21, 2019, 10:33:14 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/Pt7QjzQ/Maisie-Age.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWk28s2)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2019, 01:03:19 AM
Did she show her goodies or something?  I cancelled my cable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 22, 2019, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2019, 01:03:19 AM
Did she show her goodies or something?  I cancelled my cable.
Side boob and butt.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 22, 2019, 01:58:06 AM
Random thoughts:
Jamie dies, Arya "takes" his face and kills Cersei crossing her off the list and also fulfilling the prediction.
The Hound is dying and Beric Dondarrion sacrifices himself to revive him to die in combat killing his brother.
One dragon dies killing the undead dragon/next week some time.
The other dragon is killed in the assault on King's Landing by the giant Checkov's Crossbow.
The Night King possessing Bran is the cliffhanger of next episode.
Bran regains possession long enough in episode 4 to allow them to kill the Night King/Bran combination.
The fantasy elements die out with the end of the White Walkers, the Night King, Bran, and the Dragons.  a la Tolkien's (Martin's big influence) story of the coming of the Age of Men aka the 4th Age onward.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 22, 2019, 02:03:35 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 18, 2018, 01:04:05 PM
The Final Empire or Elantris.

Elantris is clearly the worst, which is understandable as it's his first.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 22, 2019, 04:33:06 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 21, 2019, 10:33:14 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/Pt7QjzQ/Maisie-Age.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWk28s2)

I admit I looked it up on Wikipedia.  -_-

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 22, 2019, 05:54:49 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 22, 2019, 01:58:06 AM
The Night King possessing Bran is the cliffhanger of next episode.
Bran regains possession long enough in episode 4 to allow them to kill the Night King/Bran combination.

There's a theory that the NK isn't at Winterfell at all, but is flying directly to King's Landing to zombify the whole city. He wasn't shown among the White Walkers at the end of episode 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 06:38:02 AM
Well, the people who wanted more blab, blab and less stab, stab had to be happy with last night's episode.

I thought it a bit over-done.  By halfway through the episode, I was playing the "guess who has a character moment next" game.  Some of this was good and necessary, but a lot of it seemed filler.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 06:40:25 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 22, 2019, 05:54:49 AM
There's a theory that the NK isn't at Winterfell at all, but is flying directly to King's Landing to zombify the whole city. He wasn't shown among the White Walkers at the end of episode 2.

It had occurred to me that the dragon, by breathing frost and not fire, does leave the corpses in shape to be raised as wights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 22, 2019, 08:46:25 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 22, 2019, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2019, 01:03:19 AM
Did she show her goodies or something?  I cancelled my cable.
Side boob and butt.

Probably not hers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 22, 2019, 09:31:58 AM
I really enjoyed the cast of characters drinking and singing by the fire on the eve of the destruction of their civilization. I'll be sad to see many (or hopefully most) of them die next week. Best episode in years--I hope they keep this up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 22, 2019, 09:56:27 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 22, 2019, 09:31:58 AM
I really enjoyed the cast of characters drinking and singing by the fire on the eve of the destruction of their civilization. I'll be sad to see many (or hopefully most) of them die next week. Best episode in years--I hope they keep this up.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 22, 2019, 11:10:22 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 22, 2019, 05:54:49 AM
There's a theory that the NK isn't at Winterfell at all, but is flying directly to King's Landing to zombify the whole city. He wasn't shown among the White Walkers at the end of episode 2.
Interesting.  I think the culprit might be cgi budget savings though.  Dany's dragons weren't shown either.  We did catch a glimpse of the long lost Ghost though!  I wonder if Nymeria is going to reappear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 22, 2019, 03:00:02 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 22, 2019, 08:46:25 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 22, 2019, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2019, 01:03:19 AM
Did she show her goodies or something?  I cancelled my cable.
Side boob and butt.

Probably not hers.

It was hers. (https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/21/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-gendry/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 03:16:23 PM
So, do the dead in Winterfell's crypt come back to life?  Is that what "the dead are already here" means?  Curious minds are curious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 22, 2019, 03:22:37 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 22, 2019, 03:00:02 PM
It was hers. (https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/21/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-gendry/)

They were hers. :nerd:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 22, 2019, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 03:16:23 PM
So, do the dead in Winterfell's crypt come back to life?  Is that what "the dead are already here" means?  Curious minds are curious.
I presume that and/or the dead from when the Ironborn took Winterfell.  I'm not sure where they were buried, but it could have been inside the walls.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 04:40:14 PM
I hadn't seen this video until a few minutes ago. I liked it:
https://youtu.be/eTa1jHk1Lxc (https://youtu.be/eTa1jHk1Lxc)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on April 22, 2019, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 22, 2019, 09:31:58 AM
I really enjoyed the cast of characters drinking and singing by the fire on the eve of the destruction of their civilization. I'll be sad to see many (or hopefully most) of them die next week. Best episode in years--I hope they keep this up.

Agree. That was a great scene and I felt the same, very well done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 22, 2019, 08:13:54 PM
Quote from: celedhring on April 22, 2019, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 22, 2019, 09:31:58 AM
I really enjoyed the cast of characters drinking and singing by the fire on the eve of the destruction of their civilization. I'll be sad to see many (or hopefully most) of them die next week. Best episode in years--I hope they keep this up.

Agree. That was a great scene and I felt the same, very well done.

Agreed. I really liked Brianne being Knighted - well deserved. I hope most of them survive but I fear  it may be otherwise.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: KRonn on April 22, 2019, 08:13:54 PM
Agreed. I really liked Brianne being Knighted - well deserved. I hope most of them survive but I fear  it may be otherwise.

Brianne being knighted is a sure sign she dies next episode (which means Pod and Tormund die, too).  Theon is certainly doomed as well.  Dunno about Davos, and favor dying.  The Hound, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Tyrion, and Dani survive this upcoming episode, as does Sam, his wife, and the kid (scarface girl dies saving them).   Dondarrian dies.  Bran lives. Varys dies. Gendry dies.  Have I left out anyone?  There simply has to be a bloodbath after this touching final get-together, and I think it includes the fall of Winterfell.  Dani dies with her dragon in episode 4, forcing Jon to become The Lightbringer and killing the Night King (and maybe Bran in the process).  That leaves the final confrontation with Cersei and the resolution to the whole series for episodes 5 and 6.

Edit:  Lightbringer is the sword, Azor Ahai is the hero.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on April 22, 2019, 09:20:46 PM
I doubt that the Night King will die before Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 22, 2019, 09:20:46 PM
I doubt that the Night King will die before Cersei.

Why not?  Remember that they are using Martin's ending, and Martin didn't even have the Night King in his books (he had a "Night's King" but that was a completely different character).  The ending was always going to be the confrontation over who sits on the Iron Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on April 22, 2019, 09:43:27 PM
Maybe, but who sits on the Iron Throne can get an answer from the confrontation with the Night King. It's clear he has been set up in the show as the much bigger menace - (the whole thing is "A Song of Fire and Ice", not "A Game of Thrones"). My sense is that the fall of Winterfell will bring the dead south, and lead to the confrontation of refugees of the North with Cersei - with people having to chose their loyalty once and for all, maybe have some Deus Ex Machina from the sea. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2019, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 22, 2019, 09:31:58 AM
I really enjoyed the cast of characters drinking and singing by the fire on the eve of the destruction of their civilization. I'll be sad to see many (or hopefully most) of them die next week. Best episode in years--I hope they keep this up.

Being of non english culture, I would say it had airs of The Next Generation, but I kinda feel like it was inspired by some play, a few hundreds years before that show ;)

It felt shakespirian enough, but it was very good, indeed :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2019, 12:29:08 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 22, 2019, 01:58:06 AM
Random thoughts:
Jamie dies, Arya "takes" his face and kills Cersei crossing her off the list and also fulfilling the prediction.
There's the Bronn wildcard though...

"Jamie" as in Arya, is killed by Bronn, leaving Tyrion to kill his sister, as by the prophecy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 23, 2019, 03:38:13 AM
I found the revelation that Jon is Aegon Targaryen underwhelming in both episodes. Neither the revelation to Jon, nor to Dany was really epic for what is one of core story arcs and mysteries since the show started.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 23, 2019, 03:38:13 AM
I found the revelation that Jon is Aegon Targaryen underwhelming in both episodes. Neither the revelation to Jon, nor to Dany was really epic for what is one of core story arcs and mysteries since the show started.
Possibly because at this point, everyone except Daenerys thinks of surviving the battle ahead, they don't really have plans for beyond that.  Let them win the battle, or just survive it, and later that reality will sink in everyone.  Maybe the Mother of Dragons will think of backstabbing her newfound nephew.  I can't see her renouncing her claim, nor can I see Jon Snow pushing it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: miozozny on April 23, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 08:46:00 PM
Have I left out anyone?

The Mormonts, Grey Worm, Missandei, Jaime?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 23, 2019, 01:20:45 PM
Who's the fresh meat?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 23, 2019, 02:03:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2019, 01:20:45 PM
Who's the fresh meat?

Registration date of 2011.  I think it's just one of our long-term lurkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 23, 2019, 03:03:20 PM
I think the battle at Winterfell will happen over two or three episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 23, 2019, 03:07:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2019, 03:03:20 PM
I think the battle at Winterfell will happen over two or three episodes.
I'm going with 1 1/2.  Bran will fall to the Night King/merge with him as the cliffhanger this Sunday and then we'll have a lot of death before Bran manages to exert control just long enough to get the Night King killed in the next episode.  Maybe have a dead dragon and a dead Jon or Dany thrown in there for good measure.  There are only what, 4 episodes left?  One has to be a resolution type episode presumably, leaving 3 episodes to cover the Battle of Winterfell and King's Landing.  Keep in mind, the episodes are all longer from here on in though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 23, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
Major suikoden vibes in that last episode. Which was cool.

Lots of problems with it. But overall nice.

I note every character appearing. Even ghost came back. But where has melissandre disappeared to? Have I forgot something?


I sadly see a pretty simple ending to this show. It has massively diverged from the books. Where with the books I think we will get a peaceful ending the show is very much about the heroic showdown the books are trying to subvert
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on April 23, 2019, 05:48:10 PM
Didn't the showrunners say their ending and Martin's are the same?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 23, 2019, 06:35:24 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 23, 2019, 05:48:10 PM
Didn't the showrunners say their ending and Martin's are the same?

So the show isn't going to have an ending?

Edgy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 23, 2019, 06:41:51 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 23, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
I note every character appearing. Even ghost came back. But where has melissandre disappeared to? Have I forgot something?
She was exiled last season, never to set foot on Westeros again, under penalty of death.

Quote
I sadly see a pretty simple ending to this show. It has massively diverged from the books. Where with the books I think we will get a peaceful ending the show is very much about the heroic showdown the books are trying to subvert
I don't think of the books as some kind of peaceful art... Martin has killed and resurected and killed more characters than the tv show could afford to.  Since the beginning, nothing is really peaceful in this story, I doubt G.R.R. will have Jon Snow and the others sit with the Others, and talk their differences over tea...  :sleep:



@MinskyGood one! :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 23, 2019, 06:56:46 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on April 23, 2019, 05:48:10 PM
Didn't the showrunners say their ending and Martin's are the same?

The problem is Martin and the show had a falling out some time ago.  They were completely on their own last season.  Martin gave them a general idea of where his books were going and how he was thinking of resolving the series - but the show has diverged from the books quite a bit and so I would not be surprised that the Martin ending (assuming we ever see it) is different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 23, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
I'm still holding out for moon-meteor cataclysm (a theory from the books that has only mild support in the show).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 23, 2019, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: miozozny on April 23, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 08:46:00 PM
Have I left out anyone?

The Mormonts, Grey Worm, Missandei, Jaime?

Die, dies, dies, lives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 24, 2019, 02:17:22 AM
Peaceful resolution - I disagree.
I think the others situation will stop short of war. It'll be a nasty bloody magical peace treaty but I dont think it'll be a simple showdown.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
I'm still holding out for moon-meteor cataclysm (a theory from the books that has only mild support in the show).

Explain?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2019, 05:03:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2019, 06:56:46 PM
The problem is Martin and the show had a falling out some time ago.  They were completely on their own last season.  Martin gave them a general idea of where his books were going and how he was thinking of resolving the series - but the show has diverged from the books quite a bit and so I would not be surprised that the Martin ending (assuming we ever see it) is different.

I seem to recall that Martin said, some years ago when it was clear that the show was going to end long before the books, that he was basically going with his second choice of endings because the show was going to use his first choice.

Too bad the show couldn't get him to help with the dialogue writing for the last three seasons.  That's where the show has really fallen off since they went beyond the Wall books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Threviel on April 24, 2019, 06:20:09 AM
So.. What happened to the Black Watch Stark dude from episode 1?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 24, 2019, 06:37:01 AM
Quote from: Threviel on April 24, 2019, 06:20:09 AM
So.. What happened to the Black Watch Stark dude from episode 1?

You mean Benjen?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 24, 2019, 07:01:11 AM
Quote from: Threviel on April 24, 2019, 06:20:09 AM
So.. What happened to the Black Watch Stark dude from episode 1?

Redied saving jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 24, 2019, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2019, 07:01:11 AM
Quote from: Threviel on April 24, 2019, 06:20:09 AM
So.. What happened to the Black Watch Stark dude from episode 1?

Redied saving jon.

I'm betting we see his reanimated corpse this Sunday.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 24, 2019, 10:57:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2019, 05:03:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2019, 06:56:46 PM
The problem is Martin and the show had a falling out some time ago.  They were completely on their own last season.  Martin gave them a general idea of where his books were going and how he was thinking of resolving the series - but the show has diverged from the books quite a bit and so I would not be surprised that the Martin ending (assuming we ever see it) is different.

I seem to recall that Martin said, some years ago when it was clear that the show was going to end long before the books, that he was basically going with his second choice of endings because the show was going to use his first choice.

Too bad the show couldn't get him to help with the dialogue writing for the last three seasons.  That's where the show has really fallen off since they went beyond the Wall books.


Thanks, I had not heard that.  I agree with your second point.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Threviel on April 24, 2019, 11:52:50 AM
Haven't watched the last few seasons, I just always wondered what happened to him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 24, 2019, 05:14:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 24, 2019, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2019, 07:01:11 AM
Quote from: Threviel on April 24, 2019, 06:20:09 AM
So.. What happened to the Black Watch Stark dude from episode 1?

Redied saving jon.

I'm betting we see his reanimated corpse this Sunday.
You mean re-reanimated?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 26, 2019, 07:51:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 23, 2019, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: miozozny on April 23, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 08:46:00 PM
Have I left out anyone?

The Mormonts, Grey Worm, Missandei, Jaime?

Die, dies, dies, lives.

Nah, I think Jaime needs to redeem himself, and the only way he can do that is to die for the greater good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2019, 07:51:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 23, 2019, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: miozozny on April 23, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 22, 2019, 08:46:00 PM
Have I left out anyone?

The Mormonts, Grey Worm, Missandei, Jaime?

Die, dies, dies, lives.

Nah, I think Jaime needs to redeem himself, and the only way he can do that is to die for the greater good.

Giving his life to save the person he just knighted for example
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on April 26, 2019, 08:45:00 AM
Who then will give her life to save somebody else  :P

I'm running a GoT dead pool over at Spanish EUOT. Average kill count is around 15 major characters  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 08:52:22 AM
Jaime has to survive to kill Cersei himself, so I don't see him biting it at Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on April 26, 2019, 08:55:41 AM
Has been established whether Cersei is really preggers or faking it? I have trouble picturing any of the Lannister bros killing her if she's with child.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 08:52:22 AM
Jaime has to survive to kill Cersei himself, so I don't see him biting it at Winterfell.

Face shifted Arya?

There has to be some reason so much time was taken in her story arc to learn that skill.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Her killing the Freys wasn't enough?

I'm sure that it will come up again, but I don't think it'll be face-shifted Jaime. There's definitely a non-zero chance, though, with Cersei still being on the list...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 10:58:11 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Her killing the Freys wasn't enough?

I'm sure that it will come up again, but I don't think it'll be face-shifted Jaime. There's definitely a non-zero chance, though, with Cersei still being on the list...

Not really, compared to the others on the List.  The Freys were really just a demonstration of what she was now capable of. Cersei is the main target left.  The Hound seems to have received a pardon.


edit: think back to the regret she felt for how she had wasted her selections for who should die when she could have named anyone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 08:52:22 AM
Jaime has to survive to kill Cersei himself, so I don't see him biting it at Winterfell.

That's what I think, too.  Cersei has to die at the hands of her "younger brother" and the show made an effort to make sure we knew that Jaime was born minutes after her.  Plus, she is convinced that the younger brother is Tyrion therefor, by GoT logic, it cannot be him.

I don't think a face-shifted Arya could fulfill the prophecy.

Cersei is no longer pregnant.  She refused wine with Tyrion because she was pregnant, and now she is drinking wine. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Her killing the Freys wasn't enough?

I'm sure that it will come up again, but I don't think it'll be face-shifted Jaime. There's definitely a non-zero chance, though, with Cersei still being on the list...
Plus her threats against Sansa were made much more real by the faceshifting idea.  She used faceshifting to kill Meryn Trant, too.  I don't think we need some final dramatic use of the ability to justify its use in the books or show.  You are right that it's a non-zero chance, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 26, 2019, 11:12:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 08:52:22 AM
Jaime has to survive to kill Cersei himself, so I don't see him biting it at Winterfell.

That's what I think, too.  Cersei has to die at the hands of her "younger brother" and the show made an effort to make sure we knew that Jaime was born minutes after her.  Plus, she is convinced that the younger brother is Tyrion therefor, by GoT logic, it cannot be him.

I don't think a face-shifted Arya could fulfill the prophecy.

Cersei is no longer pregnant.  She refused wine with Tyrion because she was pregnant, and now she is drinking wine.

It's remarkable that a pseudo-medeival society like Westeros would even have any connection between alcohol and pregnancy.  *quickly googles*  Although there were a few people through history who made such an observation (including Aristotle!), fetal alcohol syndrome was only really recognized in the 1970s.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2019, 11:17:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2019, 11:12:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 08:52:22 AM
Jaime has to survive to kill Cersei himself, so I don't see him biting it at Winterfell.

That's what I think, too.  Cersei has to die at the hands of her "younger brother" and the show made an effort to make sure we knew that Jaime was born minutes after her.  Plus, she is convinced that the younger brother is Tyrion therefor, by GoT logic, it cannot be him.

I don't think a face-shifted Arya could fulfill the prophecy.

Cersei is no longer pregnant.  She refused wine with Tyrion because she was pregnant, and now she is drinking wine.

It's remarkable that a pseudo-medeival society like Westeros would even have any connection between alcohol and pregnancy.  *quickly googles*  Although there were a few people through history who made such an observation (including Aristotle!), fetal alcohol syndrome was only really recognized in the 1970s.

On the list of remarkable things in Westeros, I'd put that squarely below dragons, zombies, giants, and shapeshifters.

:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 11:19:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2019, 11:17:33 AM

On the list of remarkable things in Westeros, I'd put that squarely below dragons, zombies, giants, and shapeshifters.

:P

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 11:26:31 AM
I'm really going to miss this show/thread when this is over.

At least until book 6 comes out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 26, 2019, 11:39:38 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 11:26:31 AM
At least until book 6 comes out.


:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
Book 6 will come out...someday. In some distant year in some distant land.

It is Book 7 that will disappear into the mists of legend.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 08:52:22 AM
Jaime has to survive to kill Cersei himself, so I don't see him biting it at Winterfell.

That's what I think, too.  Cersei has to die at the hands of her "younger brother" and the show made an effort to make sure we knew that Jaime was born minutes after her.  Plus, she is convinced that the younger brother is Tyrion therefor, by GoT logic, it cannot be him.

I don't think a face-shifted Arya could fulfill the prophecy.

Cersei is no longer pregnant.  She refused wine with Tyrion because she was pregnant, and now she is drinking wine.

Your view is certainly consistent with a plain reading of the prophesy.  But given how Martin always twists things, another result could occur.

"Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"

I wondered how Dani was going to "take" Jamie - which up until now was included in all Cercei held dear.  But I think the answer now is Jamie is no longer held dear so the only thing Dani needs to take is the crown of the seven kingdoms.  Jamie could die for this part of the prophesy to be fulfilled. 

As a side note, for the Prophesy to be fulfilled, Jon cannot claim the crown as his birthright.

"Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Now to the part you referred to directly.  One thing of interest is the part about how she would die is not the answer to her question.  She only asked whether she would have children.

Since the answer is in relation to her question about her children, it just occurred to me that "valonqar" could mean the younger brother amongst her three children.  But that would mean that Tommen's body was not burned as Cersei had instructed but instead kept by the Hand for whatever twisted experiments he likes to perform on his own time.

Regarding Arya, valonqar could be a reference to someone who resembles one of Cercei's younger brothers.  The books don't tell us how precise the translation is.







Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 12:42:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
Book 6 will come out...someday. In some distant year in some distant land.

It is Book 7 that will disappear into the mists of legend.

I'm pretty well resigned to that at this point. I give a 95% chance of book 6 coming out, probably within the next yearish.

Book 7...probably closer to 25% chance of release within the next 10 years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 01:11:40 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 12:42:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
Book 6 will come out...someday. In some distant year in some distant land.

It is Book 7 that will disappear into the mists of legend.

I'm pretty well resigned to that at this point. I give a 95% chance of book 6 coming out, probably within the next yearish.

Book 7...probably closer to 25% chance of release within the next 10 years.

I am wondering whether he has been holding out while watching the shows writers struggle without his writing as a guide and that after this season ends he will publish.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 01:15:13 PM
Heh. I get the feeling from reading his blog that he is desperate to release this thing. He just cannot finish it for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 26, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
GRRM is 71, overweight, and evidently doesn't enjoy writing these books anymore. I predict that he'll finish The Winds of Winter within the next 5 years and then abandon the series entirely and/or die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on April 26, 2019, 01:18:32 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 26, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
GRRM is 71, overweight, and evidently doesn't enjoy writing these books anymore. I predict that he'll finish The Winds of Winter within the next 5 years and then abandon the series entirely and/or die.

I'm confident he'll earn a lot of money from releasing a book however...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 01:19:54 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 26, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
GRRM is 71, overweight, and evidently doesn't enjoy writing these books anymore. I predict that he'll finish The Winds of Winter within the next 5 years and then abandon the series entirely and/or die.

I don't think that is evident. He wrote a freaking tome about the Targaryens and lamented he wishes he was younger because he had so many more ideas of things he wanted to do with the world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 01:20:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2019, 01:18:32 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 26, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
GRRM is 71, overweight, and evidently doesn't enjoy writing these books anymore. I predict that he'll finish The Winds of Winter within the next 5 years and then abandon the series entirely and/or die.

I'm confident he'll earn a lot of money from releasing a book however...

It is not like he needs the money.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 01:19:54 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 26, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
GRRM is 71, overweight, and evidently doesn't enjoy writing these books anymore. I predict that he'll finish The Winds of Winter within the next 5 years and then abandon the series entirely and/or die.

I don't think that is evident. He wrote a freaking tomb about the Targaryens and lamented he wishes he was younger because he had so many more ideas of things he wanted to do with the world.

Yeah, I don't think it's evident in the least that he doesn't enjoy writing. He might not enjoy the struggle of writer's block, but who the fuck does? He seems to very much love and care for the world he's created, judging by the other works he's done within it and the constant attention he pays to it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 01:36:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 11:55:52 AM

"Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Now to the part you referred to directly.  One thing of interest is the part about how she would die is not the answer to her question.  She only asked whether she would have children.

Since the answer is in relation to her question about her children, it just occurred to me that "valonqar" could mean the younger brother amongst her three children.  But that would mean that Tommen's body was not burned as Cersei had instructed but instead kept by the Hand for whatever twisted experiments he likes to perform on his own time.

An interesting bit of speculation that I hadn't seen or thought of.  And that would fit perfectly with the twisted thinking of GRRM in his series.

QuoteRegarding Arya, valonqar could be a reference to someone who resembles one of Cercei's younger brothers.  The books don't tell us how precise the translation is.

That I find too much of a stretch.  People who merely resemble brothers aren't brothers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 01:38:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Yeah, I don't think it's evident in the least that he doesn't enjoy writing. He might not enjoy the struggle of writer's block, but who the fuck does? He seems to very much love and care for the world he's created, judging by the other works he's done within it and the constant attention he pays to it.

Maybe all of the other books are attempts to write around the writer's block?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 02:50:06 PM
"the younger brother" /= "your younger brother"

It could be any younger brother or someone who in some way represents the concept of a younger brother. Arya is a girl but often acts like/takes the shape of a boy.

Presumably there is some reason why the soothsayer uses a foreign word for that particular term and presumably that reason is not to make things more clear.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
[Yeah, I don't think it's evident in the least that he doesn't enjoy writing. He might not enjoy the struggle of writer's block, but who the fuck does? He seems to very much love and care for the world he's created, judging by the other works he's done within it and the constant attention he pays to it.

I agree the real problem is the opposite of disinterest or laziness. The tail (the background of the world he imagined to support the narrative) is wagging the dog of writing the novels. He's become so entranced by his own world building that its taken over the original project of writing well plotted novels.  It's been increasingly apparent since the 4th book when he started to overly multiply narratives and side plots.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 03:11:23 PM
No contention there. I'd read as many world-building/travelogues/etc. as Martin wanted to put out, but...not everyone's into that, and it doesn't solve his plot problems. I'm sure he's realized that by now, and he seems positive from the most recent interviews he's given.

Whether that means book 7 will actually be released is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 03:24:28 PM
Hold on a sec.

"Valonquar" is a Valyrian word.  Why use it?  Perhaps to signify that it is the little brother of a Valyrian?
The most prominent Valyrian family in Westeros is the Targaryens.
The head of the Targaryen family is Jon Snow.
Snow has no living biological brothers but he has adopted siblings he regards as brothers:
+ Rickon is dead
+ Bran is "changed"

In the shows Jon Snow is the one that gives Arya her sword and encourages her "boyish" pursuits.  Their realtionship is akin to that of an older and younger brother.

Arya is THE Valonquar, the younger brother of the Valyrian.

Or . . . maybe Bran/Night King finishes her off . . .
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 03:26:33 PM
I'm okay with Arya killing Cersei/being the valonqar or whatever, but I swear to Christ if they have someone info-dump the explanation like that, I might shoot the TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 03:37:31 PM
Quote...the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

People really think that this could possibly describe Arya?  She doesn't have "his hands" and she doesn't kill by choking people.  Poison and stabbing/cutting are the elements of her MO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 03:44:49 PM
I think Arya being the valonqar would be stupid as shit, but no stupider than some of the stuff the show has done already. Making a teen girl into a murder-hobo is apparently "cool" and "empowering", so why not have her kill Cersei too?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 03:51:54 PM
If Tyrion is the son of the mad king, he would be Rhaegar's younger brother (valonquar), as well as Cersei's.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 03:53:26 PM
There is a scintilla of support for Tyrion being the Mad King's son. It's such a dumb theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2019, 04:01:54 PM
Murder-hobo? :unsure:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 26, 2019, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2019, 04:01:54 PM
Murder-hobo? :unsure:

An itinerant murderer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 05:06:54 PM
The part of the prophesy I don't understand at all is "And when your tears have drowned you".  At what point will that be?  I think it is a reference to the Iron Born motto and the practice of drowning and then reviving as part of the baptism ceremony.  But otherwise, I am not sure how that works  - how will she be killed after she has drowned by tears - especially since she is not the teary type.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 26, 2019, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 03:24:28 PM
Hold on a sec.

"Valonquar" is a Valyrian word.  Why use it?  Perhaps to signify that it is the little brother of a Valyrian?
The most prominent Valyrian family in Westeros is the Targaryens.
The head of the Targaryen family is Jon Snow.
Snow has no living biological brothers but he has adopted siblings he regards as brothers:
+ Rickon is dead
+ Bran is "changed"

In the shows Jon Snow is the one that gives Arya her sword and encourages her "boyish" pursuits.  Their realtionship is akin to that of an older and younger brother.

Arya is THE Valonquar, the younger brother of the Valyrian.

Or . . . maybe Bran/Night King finishes her off . . .

and Arya speaks some words of valyrian, I think.

I'm still betting on a shapeshifted Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 26, 2019, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 03:44:49 PM
Making a teen girl into a murder-hobo is apparently "cool" and "empowering",
it's been like that since the Slayer's times ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 26, 2019, 05:49:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 26, 2019, 05:06:54 PM
The part of the prophesy I don't understand at all is "And when your tears have drowned you".  At what point will that be?  I think it is a reference to the Iron Born motto and the practice of drowning and then reviving as part of the baptism ceremony.  But otherwise, I am not sure how that works  - how will she be killed after she has drowned by tears - especially since she is not the teary type.
Hmm, maybe her Iron Born lover will betray her and seek an alliance with Daenerys?  And the tears would be metaphoric: she drowns in her tears because she is betrayed by her fighters and that seals her fate, to be defeated by her opponents.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: miozozny on April 26, 2019, 06:35:38 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2019, 03:37:31 PM
Quote...the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

People really think that this could possibly describe Arya?  She doesn't have "his hands" and she doesn't kill by choking people.  Poison and stabbing/cutting are the elements of her MO.

Isn't Valyrian to be gender-neutral? So maybe Sansa will get her chance!

That said; I think it will be Jaime. To me it seems to better fill his narrative. Killing the mad queen that is about to burn King's Landing and finally becoming a hero in the official history.
He does, to me, seem to be one the most likely characters to get back south as well. At least one of the Lannister brothers has to survive to make the Bronn scenes worth it at least. And I don't see where Tyrion's story is going after Winterfell. A 'I talked to Bran and found a way to beat the NK and die while doing it'-scenario seems appropriate right now.

And a comment on the lives/dies S8E3-predictions; I think Varys' story is not yet finished. So I think he will survive. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 10:10:24 PM
Add in the fact that Jaime would go down as a Kingslayer and a Queenslayer, and I'm sold.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on April 27, 2019, 04:14:06 AM
Watched the latest episodes. Man the writing isn't exactly stellar. I'm just hoping that the season won't include anything as stupid as the big "what-the-fuck-am-I-watching" incidents from season 7.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 28, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
A study on the chances of survival for the main characters :)
https://injepijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40621-018-0174-7
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 28, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
A study on the chances of survival for the main characters :)
https://injepijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40621-018-0174-7

Nice.

QuoteGiven the societal structure outlined above, it should come as no surprise that violence prevention is presently not a priority in Game of Thrones.

Now that I think about it, this should have been more obvious to me before reading this study.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 28, 2019, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
QuoteGiven the societal structure outlined above, it should come as no surprise that violence prevention is presently not a priority in Game of Thrones.

Now that I think about it, this should have been more obvious to me before reading this study.
lol :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 28, 2019, 01:29:49 PM
Ibe
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
[Yeah, I don't think it's evident in the least that he doesn't enjoy writing. He might not enjoy the struggle of writer's block, but who the fuck does? He seems to very much love and care for the world he's created, judging by the other works he's done within it and the constant attention he pays to it.

I agree the real problem is the opposite of disinterest or laziness. The tail (the background of the world he imagined to support the narrative) is wagging the dog of writing the novels. He's become so entranced by his own world building that its taken over the original project of writing well plotted novels.  It's been increasingly apparent since the 4th book when he started to overly multiply narratives and side plots.

To be fair the books have been that way since the 1st one. Its pretty clear with stuff like the jaunt to the Vale that the plot in large part serves as an excuse to show Westeros.

I think he's suffering over things as the longer the wait the higher the expectations get and he's being so concerned about perfection he's not producing anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 28, 2019, 02:04:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 26, 2019, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 26, 2019, 03:24:28 PM
Hold on a sec.

"Valonquar" is a Valyrian word.  Why use it?  Perhaps to signify that it is the little brother of a Valyrian?
The most prominent Valyrian family in Westeros is the Targaryens.
The head of the Targaryen family is Jon Snow.
Snow has no living biological brothers but he has adopted siblings he regards as brothers:
+ Rickon is dead
+ Bran is "changed"

In the shows Jon Snow is the one that gives Arya her sword and encourages her "boyish" pursuits.  Their realtionship is akin to that of an older and younger brother.

Arya is THE Valonquar, the younger brother of the Valyrian.

Or . . . maybe Bran/Night King finishes her off . . .

and Arya speaks some words of valyrian, I think.

I'm still betting on a shapeshifted Arya.

Arya learned some nasty skills with that group she was in, as seen by how she played old man Frey and killed off many of them. Some of the books and show concepts are a bit supernatural, white walkers, Bran and the one eyed raven, so Arya having some skills isn't so out of place. I like it, her being so small and seemingly relatively harmless but few know what's behind the façade. I think Sansa knows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 28, 2019, 09:39:32 PM
Not as big a butcher's bill as I expected.  But I was surprised they offed the NK with three episodes to go.

Now Arya got her big moment, though, it just reinforces my conviction that she won't off Cersei, too.

Some great moments in that episode.  The Dothraki lights going out bit was the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2019, 09:40:04 PM
oooh boy
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on April 28, 2019, 09:41:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2019, 09:39:32 PM
Not as big a butcher's bill as I expected.  But I was surprised they offed the NK with three episodes to go.

Now Arya got her big moment, though, it just reinforces my conviction that she won't off Cersei, too.

Some great moments in that episode.  The Dothraki lights going out bit was the best.
Very much evened out the odds for the coming battle for the Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 28, 2019, 10:06:42 PM
what an episode!

Although, it will be difficult to take on the Throne now...  Unless there is some shifting alliances again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Rex Francorum on April 28, 2019, 10:18:51 PM
Indeed, I was flabbergasted. I wonder what Bran did do besides worging ravens. It was a bit disappointing to see him not do much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 28, 2019, 10:22:14 PM
I do wonder if they've decided to scrap prophecy and the other mystical stuff now? There's plenty of time left (3 massive episodes) for them to keep to it, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 28, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
I suppose they had to kill off the Dothraki and the unsullied to make the final conflict interesting.  But what a waste - hey let's just charge into the darkness and see what happens.

But I agree, watching the lights go out was a good scene. 

Now I really hope the books are finished.  This was all too straightforward with only tertiary characters dying - more like standard fantasy fare rather than the style of Martin.  I want to see how he brings everything to a conclusion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2019, 02:53:03 AM
Well, there is only so much you can subvert and still keep it interesting.  You can take a circuitous route, but you still need to stop the world ending threat.  I was kind of hoping we'd actually hear the Night King speak.

This season has been much better than last season. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 29, 2019, 03:56:57 AM
I liked it at lot upon completion, but... problems are arising as I think it over.  At the very least... are Dany, Jon, and company the worst tacticians and planners ever or is it just me?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 04:50:13 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 29, 2019, 03:56:57 AM
I liked it at lot upon completion, but... problems are arising as I think it over.  At the very least... are Dany, Jon, and company the worst tacticians and planners ever or is it just me?

The battles have always been tactically dumb but visually spectacular.  Like most of the swordfighting - just chop, chop, stab.  Arya's fight was the only one that showed the value of finesse.  That used to bother me, but I realized that TV has its own needs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 29, 2019, 05:17:22 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2019, 04:01:54 PM
Murder-hobo? :unsure:

Basically an RPG character in D&D or any rpg game, tabletop or pc. They just wander the land doing what ever they want, killing anyone who crosses their path.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 29, 2019, 06:51:17 AM
This episode greatly improved my opinion of Peter Jackson.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 29, 2019, 07:01:13 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 29, 2019, 06:51:17 AM
This episode greatly improved my opinion of Peter Jackson.

Watch the hobbit again to correct it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 29, 2019, 07:27:58 AM
Anyone who's ever rushed to finish one of his girlfriend's reports, discarding most of the content and only using parts of the outline, because she freaked out the night before it was due and someone's got to do it or it won't get done before the 9 AM deadline understands what happened to those movies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 29, 2019, 08:13:47 AM
From Cersei's point of view, she did the right thing.  The Union army is pretty much destroyed.

On paper, she has the upper hand, though Danaeyrs has the trump card dragon.

Three episodes to figure it all out. Wonder if Bran did anything, other than sleep through the whole thing. We'll find out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 29, 2019, 08:46:04 AM
For years I assumed the series could be summed up as: "An ancient evils rises in the far north. The inhuman Others and their undead host march inexorably southward, determined to extinguish the light of civilization, humanity, and life itself. Only the men of the Night's Watch stand against the darkness. Meanwhile, the lords of the south pointlessly scheme and war against each other, oblivious to the true threat."

But I was wrong. It's about who sits on the Iron Throne after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 09:03:27 AM
That was the theme of books 1 and 2.  But the series was always about the War of the Roses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 29, 2019, 03:56:57 AM
I liked it at lot upon completion, but... problems are arising as I think it over.  At the very least... are Dany, Jon, and company the worst tacticians and planners ever or is it just me?

Yes, yes they are.  Put aside the errors of deployment, complete lack of siege defence etc.  Think about what their plan was.  They were going to send the Dothraki into battle without dragon glass weapons.  They didn't know the priestess was going to show up at the last minute to fix that problem. And for what?  The only plan was to delay the army of the dead at the fire moat long enough to kill the main baddy when he went for Bran.  Could have kept the Dothraki and Unsullied in reserve for that.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 09:20:16 AM
I thought that it was clear the Dothraki were all equipped with dragonglass arakhs?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 29, 2019, 09:21:07 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 29, 2019, 03:56:57 AM
I liked it at lot upon completion, but... problems are arising as I think it over.  At the very least... are Dany, Jon, and company the worst tacticians and planners ever or is it just me?
Jon tried to show some skills in the fight against the Wildlings, but the rest...  Yeah, bad tactician.

The cavalry charge was visually interesting, but I kind knew they would die, charging in the dark night like that, without waiting for the ennemy to be closer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 29, 2019, 09:28:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 09:12:57 AM
Yes, yes they are.  Put aside the errors of deployment, complete lack of siege defence etc.  Think about what their plan was.  They were going to send the Dothraki into battle without dragon glass weapons.  They didn't know the priestess was going to show up at the last minute to fix that problem. And for what?  The only plan was to delay the army of the dead at the fire moat long enough to kill the main baddy when he went for Bran.  Could have kept the Dothraki and Unsullied in reserve for that.

Well, the unsullied were the reserve.  They seem to have kind forgotten about the dragon, and the giants.

But really, everything was badly planned from the start...

The Wildings under Mance Rayder knew of the looming threat.  Why not try to convince the NightWatch of the danger, ask for asylum on Stark lands, behind the wall in exchange for their service at the wall?
I know it was Jon Snow's idea, but Mance should have come with it, to protect his people, instead of trying to bring the wall down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 29, 2019, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2019, 09:39:32 PM
Now Arya got her big moment, though, it just reinforces my conviction that she won't off Cersei, too.

Agreed
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 29, 2019, 08:46:04 AM
For years I assumed the series could be summed up as: "An ancient evils rises in the far north. The inhuman Others and their undead host march inexorably southward, determined to extinguish the light of civilization, humanity, and life itself. Only the men of the Night's Watch stand against the darkness. Meanwhile, the lords of the south pointlessly scheme and war against each other, oblivious to the true threat."

But I was wrong. It's about who sits on the Iron Throne after all.

What we learned last night is that the Night King was a symptom of the evil, not the evil.  Arya is NOT the Prince That was promised - she fits none of the criteria.  Therefor, defeating the Night King doesn't break the spell that is going to cause the Long Night, and the PTWP (Jon and/or Dani and just remotely possibly Tyrion) still has an ancient evil to overcome.  Maybe the throne gets settled before that, maybe not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 10:13:21 AM
Agreed with the grumbles. I really don't think that the Night King was the last of the mystical shit we're going to see. They have three massive episodes coming up. Is it really just two episodes of Cersei vs. the world and an epilogue episode? I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 29, 2019, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 09:03:27 AM
That was the theme of books 1 and 2.  But the series was always about the War of the Roses.

I am pretty familiar with the War of the Roses and I have a hard time seeing much resemblance. I mean I know it is roughly inspired by them but I don't see any of the historical issues of the War of the Roses really explored. Robert Baratheon is not really anything like Henry VI and Henry's unfitness for being a King was central to that whole crisis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 10:26:47 AM
Also: with the death of House Mormont, it seems almost certain that Dany's going to become even more unhinged, right? She's lost a ton of her Dothraki (probably 90%+ casualties there), some of her most level-headed advisers, and plainly doesn't truly trust some of the others she has under her wings.

Couple that with the fact that some of her other, closest advisers (Missandei) are pretty clearly more aggressive about her seizing her "rights" and...I don't see her being very nice to folks going forward. Mad Queen, maybe?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 10:45:34 AM
I must say that I feel that the ending was a bit Arya ex machina. She just came out of nowhere and jumped on top of the NK, who is in the middle of his troops and officers? The quintessential evil defeated by sleight of hand? Feels a bit underwhelming. I hope Mel (nice surprise to see her back!) magicked something off her ass to disguise Arya or something.

Battle was great and agonizing, IMO, and tactically dumb, as expected. Lots of tension, and well on its way to end up super bleak and grimdark if they had wanted, but too many big characters with plot armour and the sneaky ending for that to become true.

What's the final body count amongst named characters?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 10:50:57 AM
The next episode seems to be the peeps at Winterfell licking their wounds and Cersei licking her lips.

Trailer, for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksTqLXLUvQ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksTqLXLUvQ4)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 10:45:34 AM
What's the final body count amongst named characters?

Theon Greyjoy, Jorah Mormont, Beric Dondarrion, Lyanna (all of House Mormont), Dolorous Edd, and Dothraki dude whose name escapes me.

And some dude named the Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 29, 2019, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2019, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 09:03:27 AM
That was the theme of books 1 and 2.  But the series was always about the War of the Roses.

I am pretty familiar with the War of the Roses and I have a hard time seeing much resemblance. I mean I know it is roughly inspired by them but I don't see any of the historical issues of the War of the Roses really explored. Robert Baratheon is not really anything like Henry VI and Henry's unfitness for being a King was central to that whole crisis.

Robert is more like Henry V in this scenario. The overall theme is powerful and proud noble houses with their own retinues and loyal retainers seeking to influence or capture the Crown, or scheming in rebellion if they are temporarily on the outs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 10:59:48 AM
And Melisandre, of course.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 09:20:16 AM
I thought that it was clear the Dothraki were all equipped with dragonglass arakhs?

There were scenes of arakhs made of dragon glass but when they were asked to raise their swords, they were all normal swords.  Also why bother igniting normal swords and using those if they had dragon glass?  Other than for the cool scene of watching the lights go out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 11:09:08 AM
I'll have to double-check the scene later to see about the normal swords/dragonglass as I wasn't checking too closely. I thought they were all equipped with dragonglass.

As for lighting: the Dothraki don't have night-vision.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 11:21:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 29, 2019, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 09:03:27 AM
That was the theme of books 1 and 2.  But the series was always about the War of the Roses.

I am pretty familiar with the War of the Roses and I have a hard time seeing much resemblance. I mean I know it is roughly inspired by them but I don't see any of the historical issues of the War of the Roses really explored. Robert Baratheon is not really anything like Henry VI and Henry's unfitness for being a King was central to that whole crisis.

Quotethe author of the bestselling fantasy novels that inspired the television show, says that though his tale of medieval intrigue and war draws from a range of historical sources, it clings "closest" to England's 15th-century Wars of the Roses, a series of dynastic civil wars that lasted three decades.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/29/game-of-thrones-war-of-roses-hbo

Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 10:10:22 AM
What we learned last night is that the Night King was a symptom of the evil, not the evil.  Arya is NOT the Prince That was promised - she fits none of the criteria.  Therefor, defeating the Night King doesn't break the spell that is going to cause the Long Night, and the PTWP (Jon and/or Dani and just remotely possibly Tyrion) still has an ancient evil to overcome.  Maybe the throne gets settled before that, maybe not.

I am not so sure, if the ancient evil that will bring the Long Night still needs to be defeated then it makes no sense for Mel to end her life.  She devoted herself to identifying and then supporting the Prince who was promised to defeat the darkness.  The only explanation for why she decided to end her life is that she believed her job was done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 29, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 10:45:34 AM
I must say that I feel that the ending was a bit Arya ex machina. She just came out of nowhere and jumped on top of the NK, who is in the middle of his troops and officers? The quintessential evil defeated by sleight of hand? Feels a bit underwhelming. I hope Mel (nice surprise to see her back!) magicked something off her ass to disguise Arya or something.

Battle was great and agonizing, IMO, and tactically dumb, as expected. Lots of tension, and well on its way to end up super bleak and grimdark if they had wanted, but too many big characters with plot armour and the sneaky ending for that to become true.

What's the final body count amongst named characters?

I thought about that too...what did she jump from? it was all open space except for the big tree that was behind Bran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 11:30:13 AM
I'm starting to wonder if they purposedfully didn't reveal much about the White Walkers and their motivations because of the HBO prequel in the works...  :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 29, 2019, 11:32:02 AM
Mormonts, Boltons and Umbers now all extinct.  North is going to need some new blood.  House Giantsbane?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 29, 2019, 11:32:02 AM
Mormonts, Boltons and Umbers now all extinct.  North is going to need some new blood.  House Giantsbane?

Wouldn't be unexpected, it's what Jon promotes in the books, after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on April 29, 2019, 11:40:26 AM
Maybe Bran's warging somehow provided cover for Arya to sneak past the White Walkers?

Also yeah, clearly it will be Jaime's job to kill Cersei.

I expect Dany will go crazy, kill Sansa and Jon and will be killed herself (by Jaime and/or Arya). Then Arya and Gendry will go on to unite the North and the rest under House Baratheon-Stark and Tyrion will inherit Casterly Rock. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 29, 2019, 12:54:06 PM
I'm thinking Bran's long strange trip had something to do with Arya. That said, the show spent about 5 minutes showing Arya's Sneaking (+5) abilities earlier, so it's not unfeasible that she managed to sneak past Night King's posse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 29, 2019, 01:21:05 PM
Wars of the Roses = Game of Thrones

Edward IV = Robert Baratheon
George Duke of Clarence = Renly Baratheon
Richard III = Stannis Baratheon and Ned Stark
Elizabeth Woodville = Cersei Lannister
Anthony Woodville Earl Rivers = Tyrion and Jamie Lannister
Henry VI = Aerys Targeryan/The Mad King
Thomas Stanley/William Stanley = Roose Bolton

That's my preferred view of things at least.  There is also a fair amount to be said for going back a generation and setting a Henry VI = Robert concept as well.  I just see far too many parallels to the layout I put up historically.  I'm a big Wars of the Roses era fan though, so maybe I'm seeing things where they aren't or where I want to.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 01:48:07 PM
Varys is Margret of Anjou - or at least the best approximation in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 29, 2019, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 01:48:07 PM
Varys is Margret of Anjou - or at least the best approximation in the show.
Huh?  I don't see parallels at all for that one. :huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on April 29, 2019, 02:05:24 PM
No penis? Check!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 02:21:29 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on April 29, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 29, 2019, 01:21:05 PM
Wars of the Roses = Game of Thrones

Edward IV = Robert Baratheon
George Duke of Clarence = Renly Baratheon
Richard III = Stannis Baratheon and Ned Stark
Elizabeth Woodville = Cersei Lannister
Anthony Woodville Earl Rivers = Tyrion and Jamie Lannister
Henry VI = Aerys Targeryan/The Mad King
Thomas Stanley/William Stanley = Roose Bolton

That's my preferred view of things at least.  There is also a fair amount to be said for going back a generation and setting a Henry VI = Robert concept as well.  I just see far too many parallels to the layout I put up historically.  I'm a big Wars of the Roses era fan though, so maybe I'm seeing things where they aren't or where I want to.


Ah. So we are talking right at the end. See I did not see it that way at all because I saw the white of the Starks and the red of the Lannisters as being inspired by the Yorkists and the Lancastrians which doesn't map onto anything that happened to those factions during the actual War of the Roses. Even with this I still see lots of stuff that clearly doesn't work. I mean how can you compare the upstart Woodvilles to the mighty Lannisters? But fair enough.

And Henry VI was unfit to be King almost for the opposite reason as Aerys and I guess I always thought of his wife, Margaret of Anjou, as the Cersei character being in the Lancastrian faction and producing an heir that few think was actually Henry VI's.

I definitely saw how Martin was inspired by certain people in the War of the Roses but the story he tells is really nothing like it, I don't think one would learn anything about the War of the Roses by reading this series.

Edward IV is a pretty good comparison to Robert though. That actually works pretty well, except I would argue Edward IV was a much more effective King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 29, 2019, 03:48:33 PM
Edward IV was reputed for his military prowess and his popularity with the merchant interest in the City of London.  He was tall and handsome in his youth but became fat and unhealthy in middle age.  There are superficial similarities.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
New theory:  the ones responsible for the Long Night are the Greenseers.  The Night King doesn't have the wights swarm Bran and kill him because they cannot.  Only he can.  The Night King didn't want to kill Bran because the NK wanted a permanent night (Bran claimed that, but maybe he had a reason to lie), he did it because he wanted to end the cycle of magical long summers and long winters.  He was, in essence, the good guy in all of this and the good guys were protecting the real bad guy, Bran the Greenseer.

This means that there is a role for the Prince That Was Promised. I suspect that that is going to be Dani, aided by Tyrion who will put together the pieces Sam finds in the books he has stolen from the Maisters.  Jon and the others will refuse to believe it, and Dani will be forced to order Bran executed herself.  Does Jon then execute her for murder?

The director for this episode was David Nutter, who did "The Rains of Castamere" and "Mother's Mercy," among others, and then the first two episodes of this season.  He's best at the character interaction moments. So this episode has to be character moments, but what moments?  You can't fill eighty minutes of TV with Jon and Dani sparring about who has a greater claim to the throne.  There simply HAS to be another major clash of wills and you now know what I think it will be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 04:26:08 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 29, 2019, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 01:48:07 PM
Varys is Margret of Anjou - or at least the best approximation in the show.
Huh?  I don't see parallels at all for that one. :huh:

It is a bit of a stretch, but while serving both the Mad King and Robert he worked to ensure that one of the children of Rheagar returned to the throne.  There is also some suggestion in the books that he is related.  She was such a central character in the War of the Roses that I am trying to find a counterpart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 04:58:48 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
New theory:  the ones responsible for the Long Night are the Greenseers.  The Night King doesn't have the wights swarm Bran and kill him because they cannot.  Only he can.  The Night King didn't want to kill Bran because the NK wanted a permanent night (Bran claimed that, but maybe he had a reason to lie), he did it because he wanted to end the cycle of magical long summers and long winters.  He was, in essence, the good guy in all of this and the good guys were protecting the real bad guy, Bran the Greenseer.

This means that there is a role for the Prince That Was Promised. I suspect that that is going to be Dani, aided by Tyrion who will put together the pieces Sam finds in the books he has stolen from the Maisters.  Jon and the others will refuse to believe it, and Dani will be forced to order Bran executed herself.  Does Jon then execute her for murder?

The director for this episode was David Nutter, who did "The Rains of Castamere" and "Mother's Mercy," among others, and then the first two episodes of this season.  He's best at the character interaction moments. So this episode has to be character moments, but what moments?  You can't fill eighty minutes of TV with Jon and Dani sparring about who has a greater claim to the throne.  There simply HAS to be another major clash of wills and you now know what I think it will be.

That is a very interesting theory.  It would mean that after the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest to help them with their war with the First Men, the White Walkers rebelled when they realized the Children were really the evil ones.  It would mean that the War of the Dawn was really just the last time the Walkers could try to take out the Greenseer. It also would mean that Bran the Builder was not a good guy after all and that present day Bran is following in his namesake's tradition of working with the Children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 29, 2019, 05:06:12 PM
Well. Points for scale.

But huge points lost for taking the cliched route largely.
I mean, crypt zombies? Despite all the hints of some magic in the crypts to stop that? And there being no way there were that many corpses in a decent enough state to smash through stone and cause havoc?

Dead dragon- boo.

Last minute victory? Pff.

Every enemy collapsing with their leader? Well, most of the zombies sure, but the other walkers too?

John not being the one to save the day, well at least there's that.

Interesting times ahead with Dani's forces being utterly shattered and Cersei the bitch queen reigning supreme.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 29, 2019, 05:06:12 PM
Every enemy collapsing with their leader? Well, most of the zombies sure, but the other walkers too?

That was always the game plan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 04:58:48 PM
That is a very interesting theory.  It would mean that after the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest to help them with their war with the First Men, the White Walkers rebelled when they realized the Children were really the evil ones.  It would mean that the War of the Dawn was really just the last time the Walkers could try to take out the Greenseer.

Yes.  It means that the whole history of Westeros is a lie told by the victors, and that the People of the Forest never intended for mankind to win in the end.

QuoteIt also would mean that Bran the Builder was not a good guy after all and that present day Bran is following in his namesake's tradition of working with the Children.

Precisely.  The Wall was then built to keep the Children and their Greenseer safe while they worked out their long-range plan.  The Long Night was the Children's plan to kill off mankind and come back.  I'll bet there are Children left at the Eye, just waiting for mankind to be wiped out (if this theory is true - and we saw the Eye in the last intro).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 05:53:30 PM
I like it  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2019, 06:05:33 PM
I like Grumbler's theory.  Defeating the world ending danger before the secondary bad guy is kind of weird.  The Lord of the Rings did it, where Saruman was defeated in the Scourging of the shire, so it's a possibility, but it is anti-climatic.  We spent so much time seeing Bran become the three-eyed raven, but he hasn't really proven very useful in that role.  He just sort of sits there and makes gnomic utterances.  There is no real pay-off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 06:17:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 29, 2019, 06:05:33 PMDefeating the world ending danger before the secondary bad guy is kind of weird.  The Lord of the Rings did it, where Saruman was defeated in the Scourging of the shire, so it's a possibility, but it is anti-climatic.

IIRC, Martin has alluded exactly to that (the scourging of the shire) as his intended finish for the book series, with the main ending coming first and a secondary ending after mop-up duty afterwards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
There are plenty of stories that reach the climax and then have a denouement period, but three episodes (half the season) is too long for that. Remember back to the Umber household when "the Night King is sending a message" with the Umber kid and the circular spiral of limbs?  The NK is dead, so the message makes no sense unless it is a clue as to where he was headed and, in essence, a call for aid... the Eye, where he was created.  That message thing cannot be a red herring, can it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 06:51:35 PM
I want to think that we're not yet done with the NK/WW, otherwise I think the whole series will feel quite underwhelming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 29, 2019, 06:51:35 PM
I want to think that we're not yet done with the NK/WW, otherwise I think the whole series will feel quite underwhelming.

The Night King is done.  The question remains... what was the Night King about?  Either he was just about an eternal night, as Bran said, or Bran is lying.  What are the implications of Bran being a liar?  He's no longer human, so what is he, and why?  We have no idea, and yet the show is built around his interpretations of the Night King.

What if the Night King used the dead because they are the only tool he had to get justice?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on April 29, 2019, 07:58:00 PM
I wonder if this will be the big deviation between the books and the tv series.  The books are, after all, A Song of Ice and Fire whereas the tv series is Game of Thrones.  A lot of the loose threads, hints, world building details, and background information have been left out of the tv series for one reason or another.  With the removal of more plot threads and streamlining of things, maybe they are more focused on the Iron Throne and the titular "Game" than the more broad and epic saga that is the Song of Ice and Fire that Martin is concerned with in the books.  Just as the Scouring of The Shire was left out of the LotR movies along with things like Tom Bombadil and other more widescope pieces, maybe this will be the end result here, too.  The storylines are built the same on the big details, but the finishes are different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 29, 2019, 08:01:22 PM
There is a question as to why Bran needed to become the three-eyed raven.  Did he actually do anything that important?  I kind of thought that Bran would fight the Night King in his mind or something.  Fight a battle through-out history like when Von Sydow was training Bran.

It is entirely possible that the whole battle of the forces of Good and Awesome is now resolved and only Cercei is left to fight.  If that's true, then a great deal of the plot was entirely pointless.  Typically we consider that poor writing.

I hope Grumbler's theory or something like it is true.  This was a show that thrived on twists and unexpected reveals, so we do kind of expect some kind of twist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on April 29, 2019, 08:02:05 PM
I don't think I'd mind that at this point. Or at least I'm coming around to it. The novels have always been far deeper and more intricate, so where's the harm in enjoying GoT's spectacle?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 29, 2019, 08:37:23 PM
Great battle in this episode. It more than delivered expectations for me. It had me wondering if they'd all be wiped out, but I knew that the story couldn't go on if most lead characters and leadership had been killed off. Arya was the awesome, as I said before. She has skills from that training regime she went through. Yeah, it's over done perhaps but many factors in the story have some super natural aspects to them.

A few things that annoyed me. The Dothraki attacking alone with all their cavalry. They should have been kept back to outflank the enemy. Also, the trebuchets should have been inside the Winterfell walls, not in front of the Unsullied. But great fight scenes, I can see why it took so much time to choreograph it all together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on April 29, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
This story line can go in a number of directions, obviously. I'm thinking that Jaime has a good chance at becoming the leader of the Lanisters if/when Cersei is defeated, though I feel sure she will be defeated. Just remains to be seen how things go, who is left standing. The southern households are still not in any alliance, right? They'll likely join against Cersei and her groups since they have some outstanding claims against her and her treachery. Theon's sister has gone back to the Iron Islands. She's the rightful heir and may be able to gather up some troops and ships, but the other guy who usurped her likely has most of the forces.

Also, some of the northern fiefdoms haven't committed and didn't join at Winterfell's defense. Also the Eyrie/Arie, however it's spelled. They haven't been seen yet and I think are nominally allied with the Starks.

No idea what to guess at who survives and/or becomes leader of Westeros - Dany or Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on April 29, 2019, 09:33:31 PM
What I really enjoyed most in this episode was all the glorious shlock. Air-to-air dragon combat, ice zombies swarming over dragons, the Zombie King smirking after surviving dragon fire, zombies literally raining from the sky, our heroes standing atop a mountain of zombies. All top notch shlock. I felt like I was watching Army of Darkness  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 30, 2019, 01:18:11 AM
Oh. The night king surviving dragon fire is also an annoying cliche.

The theory of the night King as the last hero and bran as the evil other is interesting. For sure in the books there were lots of hints of dodginess with the children though these were not really there in the show.
Though it does seem that they need some episodes to wrap up the human stuff too.
One was I was thinking things might go is environmental with the others as a force of nature / global warming and petty human squabbles being irrelevant in the face of it. But nah. Stopped too easily and without need of everyone uniting.

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 29, 2019, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 29, 2019, 05:06:12 PM
Every enemy collapsing with their leader? Well, most of the zombies sure, but the other walkers too?

That was always the game plan.
Yes.
But stupid that it actually works that way.
There's no reason to believe the other walkers should behave like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on April 30, 2019, 03:43:08 AM
The episode was crap and huge let-down after seven seasons of buildup for the Others/White Walkers/Winter/DEATH ITSELF.

Maybe it was a budget thing, but the good guys weirdly held back on the fire based defenses (flaming barriers, burning oil, what have you) that would have made the battle both cooler to look at and easier to see.

Also, it was anticlimactic af. I don't have a problem with Arya killing the Night King, per se, save for the questionable physics of her jump. But it happened prematurely and didn't involve enough of a sacrifice. If the same thing happened in the frozen ruins of King's Landing after half the continent had been overrun and most of the cast had died fighting the White Walkers, I'd be satisfied. Also, the sun should have set at the end of season 7 and not risen again until he died.

If I were a script doctor doing emergency life-saving surgery at this point, I'd look to Cersei's baby. I'd make it a stillbirth and have her command Qyburn to bing it back to life. Then its eyes turn blue. Then she decides to keep it anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2019, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
There are plenty of stories that reach the climax and then have a denouement period, but three episodes (half the season) is too long for that. Remember back to the Umber household when "the Night King is sending a message" with the Umber kid and the circular spiral of limbs?  The NK is dead, so the message makes no sense unless it is a clue as to where he was headed and, in essence, a call for aid... the Eye, where he was created.  That message thing cannot be a red herring, can it?

"good guys" don't send messages by elaborately torturing chuildren and murdering everyone they meet to turn them into undead drones.  You don't save the village by destroying it,

He's got working hands, he can write a letter.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 30, 2019, 08:02:10 AM
I've reflected upon this episode. It sucked.

I didn't feel it to be bad while watching since I was waiting for something to happen. But didn't. None of the main characters died which is extremely cowardly seeing how two-thirds of them are just being dragged around now with the writers having no idea what to do with them.

And then the Great Evil turns out to be a run of the mill hivemind that's defeated by a single blow to the main guy.

Major disappointment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 30, 2019, 08:26:39 AM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 29, 2019, 07:58:00 PM
I wonder if this will be the big deviation between the books and the tv series.  The books are, after all, A Song of Ice and Fire whereas the tv series is Game of Thrones.  A lot of the loose threads, hints, world building details, and background information have been left out of the tv series for one reason or another.  With the removal of more plot threads and streamlining of things, maybe they are more focused on the Iron Throne and the titular "Game" than the more broad and epic saga that is the Song of Ice and Fire that Martin is concerned with in the books.  Just as the Scouring of The Shire was left out of the LotR movies along with things like Tom Bombadil and other more widescope pieces, maybe this will be the end result here, too.  The storylines are built the same on the big details, but the finishes are different.

It occured to me that, maybe, this was G.R.R.'s vision all along too...

A song of Ice and Fire would mean the first threat to be dealt with is the Night King.  Then there's the fire... The Dragons, of course, but Cersei does like playing with fire too...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on April 30, 2019, 08:27:47 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2019, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
There are plenty of stories that reach the climax and then have a denouement period, but three episodes (half the season) is too long for that. Remember back to the Umber household when "the Night King is sending a message" with the Umber kid and the circular spiral of limbs?  The NK is dead, so the message makes no sense unless it is a clue as to where he was headed and, in essence, a call for aid... the Eye, where he was created.  That message thing cannot be a red herring, can it?

"good guys" don't send messages by elaborately torturing chuildren and murdering everyone they meet to turn them into undead drones.  You don't save the village by destroying it,

He's got working hands, he can write a letter.


He could be a medieval leader of the Green Party, fighting against global warming...
;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on April 30, 2019, 09:17:35 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2019, 07:25:35 AM
"good guys" don't send messages by elaborately torturing chuildren and murdering everyone they meet to turn them into undead drones.

You've obviously never logged in to Facebook.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 30, 2019, 09:23:24 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2019, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
There are plenty of stories that reach the climax and then have a denouement period, but three episodes (half the season) is too long for that. Remember back to the Umber household when "the Night King is sending a message" with the Umber kid and the circular spiral of limbs?  The NK is dead, so the message makes no sense unless it is a clue as to where he was headed and, in essence, a call for aid... the Eye, where he was created.  That message thing cannot be a red herring, can it?

"good guys" don't send messages by elaborately torturing chuildren and murdering everyone they meet to turn them into undead drones.  You don't save the village by destroying it,

He's got working hands, he can write a letter.

The Starks are the ones who helped the Greenseer.  Under this scenario the North, as the Greenseer's protector, needed to be destroyed to save the rest.

As an aside, a theme that didn't translate well in the show was the search for the horn that could bring down the wall and the significance of free men coming South.  Both are consistent with Grumbler's proposed resolution.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on April 30, 2019, 09:48:54 AM
Interesting theories, but I think they go beyond the scope of the TV series. I read the books, once, and can barely remember the Children of the Forest story arc, let alone those who've never read the books. So, no, i dont think it's going to go that way.

That said, there's something to Bran ... he's always been a bit of a self-centred prig; so maybe there's something to him being evil that will be played upon towards the end -- but not really developing the CotF and Greenseers story arcs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on April 30, 2019, 09:52:05 AM
I found the barely existing Bran and the Night King confrontation underwhelming, just like the Targaryen reveal before. Story arcs that have started literally in the first minutes of the pilot episode just collapsing like this. There isn't even any talk or explanation on what Bran's role even is. Too bad, forgone narrative possibilities.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on April 30, 2019, 10:33:02 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 30, 2019, 09:52:05 AM
I found the barely existing Bran and the Night King confrontation underwhelming, just like the Targaryen reveal before. Story arcs that have started literally in the first minutes of the pilot episode just collapsing like this. There isn't even any talk or explanation on what Bran's role even is. Too bad, forgone narrative possibilities.

It is what makes Grumbler's theory so appealing.  The alternative is very disappointing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on April 30, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 30, 2019, 10:33:02 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 30, 2019, 09:52:05 AM
I found the barely existing Bran and the Night King confrontation underwhelming, just like the Targaryen reveal before. Story arcs that have started literally in the first minutes of the pilot episode just collapsing like this. There isn't even any talk or explanation on what Bran's role even is. Too bad, forgone narrative possibilities.

It is what makes Grumbler's theory so appealing.  The alternative is very disappointing.

Yeah "Bran the villain" is the only possible saving grace for the series' ending but I can't really see it happening. They would have to build this up (re-explain the greenseer pixies etc) from scratch in the last 3 episodes of the entire series AND close it. No way it's happening.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on April 30, 2019, 12:54:35 PM
I'm hoping/guessing we will see what Bran was up to in future episodes

The more I think about it the more I like the night king as azor ahai idea
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on April 30, 2019, 04:12:01 PM
The showrunners are hacks. Sorry guys.

Just do what I do and turn your brain off and enjoy the rest of this show.

Watch the cool special effects while drool drips from my open mouth because I'm an idiot who loves dumb shit like this stupid show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on April 30, 2019, 04:40:30 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2019, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 29, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
There are plenty of stories that reach the climax and then have a denouement period, but three episodes (half the season) is too long for that. Remember back to the Umber household when "the Night King is sending a message" with the Umber kid and the circular spiral of limbs?  The NK is dead, so the message makes no sense unless it is a clue as to where he was headed and, in essence, a call for aid... the Eye, where he was created.  That message thing cannot be a red herring, can it?

"good guys" don't send messages by elaborately torturing chuildren and murdering everyone they meet to turn them into undead drones.  You don't save the village by destroying it,

He's got working hands, he can write a letter.


Hello, I'm a terrible Ice monster with a letter.  Do you think you could deliver it for me?  I need someone to go down south to kill some children in a forest.  I'd go myself but there is a 700 foot wall in the way and all I can do is raise the dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on April 30, 2019, 07:17:07 PM
Grumblers theory is pretty fun.

But come on, who are we kidding here?

The writers aren't thinking that hard. They have NEVER thought that hard since they started telling a story not written for them by Martin.

You want to know why the DOthraki all had flaming swords and rode in the pitch black into the middle of a known nearly infinitely large army in a manner that made no sense of any kind and was a total suicide mission that was actually WORSE than them just riding away South since then at least they wouldn't be rising up 10 minutes later to attack the defenders of Winterfell?

Because some writer thought "Man, wouldn't it look cool to see all those flaming swords being swallowed up in the pitch dark! What a great visual!"

The writing of the show serves the show, not the plot.

I am enjoying the ride, but the last few seasons have been a lot more "Guardians of the Galaxy" type enjoyment than anything particularly thoughtful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: saskganesh on April 30, 2019, 07:48:20 PM
So who is Henry VII? Or is it all just a bunch of Perkin Warbecks?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 30, 2019, 08:28:30 PM
In the books there are still a bunch of legitimate claimants in play.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 01, 2019, 07:26:54 AM
Lots of combat scenes that didn't advance the story. I think the show was better when it put story first. But at least it was less boring than the endless drag of the previous episode.

Not a huge fan of the World War Z ant zombies, but I suppose it's a thing these days.

I was pleasantly surprised that the NK died. Hopefully the Game is back on, the political intrigues were always the most interesting part of the books and show I think. Not a huge fan of the Zombiegeddon aspect. Too bad though that the endgame was driven by the completely retarded zombie hunt of season 7 (one of the major WTF moments of the entire show when that decision was made), the climax being the result of a freak stupidity accident is unsatisfactory.

I hope Cersei gets to keep the Iron Throne. At least she's not monumentally stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 01, 2019, 08:27:47 AM
Seeing as Cersei is relying on a mercenary company and a freebooting pirate to stay on the throne, and yet still thinks she's really in control, I'd say the evidence favors stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2019, 09:02:48 AM
Book-Cersei has always been pretty fucking stupid, but with enough power that some of her desires are enacted all the same. Show-Cersei is no different. She will lose, and, but it will be spectacular how much damage she does along the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 01, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
It all depends on her enemies, they might out-stupid her ten-to-one again in season 8. They did in season 7, against all character build-up. When you play the Game of Thrones you don't have to be smart, just the smartest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2019, 09:40:53 AM
Fair point there. If nothing else, the good guys have shown themselves to be really, really dumb, because good is dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 01, 2019, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 30, 2019, 03:43:08 AM
Also, it was anticlimactic af. I don't have a problem with Arya killing the Night King, per se, save for the questionable physics of her jump.
did you check the dragon flights too, if they conformed to real, non questionable physics? :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 01, 2019, 12:09:03 PM
hot damn!  This is so good! :D
Winterfell battle tactical analysis (https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/)

They note every single strategic mistake made by the defenders, many of which we reported here, of course, being fans of strategy games ;) , but it is a very enjoyable read :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 12:34:23 PM
That is great
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Threviel on May 01, 2019, 12:35:56 PM
Well, whatever tactic the choose would not change the end result if they couldn't kill the NK. Best would perhaps be to move the army to the other side of Winterfell and just defend with enough to lure him out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 01, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
BEst line: On the Night King's signal, the undead breach the fire-trench the Soviet way: with their bodies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 12:50:49 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 01, 2019, 12:35:56 PM
Well, whatever tactic the choose would not change the end result if they couldn't kill the NK. Best would perhaps be to move the army to the other side of Winterfell and just defend with enough to lure him out.

Read the article - in a humorous way it sets out the tactics that could have been used to achieve the objective.

Quote from: Josephus on May 01, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
BEst line: On the Night King's signal, the undead breach the fire-trench the Soviet way: with their bodies.

I liked - "it falls into the hallowed military tradition of throwing the intelligence officer under the proverbial bus."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Threviel on May 01, 2019, 01:10:01 PM
I thought I read it, but I only skimmed it.

Thinking a few seconds more it seems clear that it was the NK that was the idiot. He only had to keep himself back and the day would be won. All the article's tips really only delay the confrontation with the NK compared to the show.

Or I'm the idiot that's even thinking about this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 01:27:38 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 01, 2019, 01:10:01 PM
I thought I read it, but I only skimmed it.

Thinking a few seconds more it seems clear that it was the NK that was the idiot. He only had to keep himself back and the day would be won. All the article's tips really only delay the confrontation with the NK compared to the show.

Or I'm the idiot that's even thinking about this.

It is fun to think about this. 

The NK was no idiot.  He waited until the battle was won before he came for Bran.  If it wasn't for superpower ninja deus ex machina Arya he would have succeeded.

Delay was the defender's strategy.  Make the battle costly enough that the NK would be lured to going after a lightly defended Bran - which was the NKs only objective.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Threviel on May 01, 2019, 01:59:56 PM
Would it have mattered if it would have taken an hour more to kill Bran if it meant that the NK could have been sleeping safe in his tent? For him it's a very high risk to even show himself around enemies, his whole campaign fails and apparently his whole race dies if he should die. He's presumable spent millennia preparing for this, patience for an hour or a day more would perhaps be prudent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 01, 2019, 02:04:27 PM
Yes, the NK did act with a strategy in mind.

Of course, he could have waited until all of the survivors were dead, but then, maybe Bran would run away with some help?  In his mind, he wasn't walking into a trap, and he made sure "the Prince that was promised" (or maybe he just recognized a skilled duelist fighter from their previous encounter in the Wildling village when he killed one the White Walker) was all tied up in a fight, unable to reach him in time, and the same for all the defenders, until he made his move for Bran.

Its only through luck that Arya survived long enough to blindsind and eventually kill him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 02:23:06 PM
Quote from: Threviel on May 01, 2019, 01:59:56 PM
Would it have mattered if it would have taken an hour more to kill Bran if it meant that the NK could have been sleeping safe in his tent? For him it's a very high risk to even show himself around enemies, his whole campaign fails and apparently his whole race dies if he should die. He's presumable spent millennia preparing for this, patience for an hour or a day more would perhaps be prudent.

You are assuming the someone other than the NK could have laid a hand on Bran.  If that was the case then any of the attackers could just have put an arrow, spear or sword into him.  The NK waited until the battle was won.  When he approached Bran he was surrounded by his army and his senior undead dudes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2019, 02:32:22 PM
There's also the hand-wavy assumption that Melisandre's blessing was hiding Arya from the NK or something of the sort.

Does it really matter? Arya jump-ninjaing the NK is one of the lesser silly things of the series, I think. At least it was cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 01, 2019, 04:25:32 PM
You guys are making up theories as if anything other than "it looks cool" was a consideration from the show creators.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 01, 2019, 04:44:48 PM
Maybe when Bran spaced out he was doing something that meant the NK had to come to him for some reason?
Though what that could be... :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 01, 2019, 04:25:32 PM
You guys are making up theories as if anything other than "it looks cool" was a consideration from the show creators.

I don't think anyone has excused the show of anything.  We are thinking about ways the plot can be salvaged now that the NK is dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 01, 2019, 05:55:31 PM
The Night King was clearly playing through his playbook on the night, Jim, while his opponents were off balance the entire game. Only a Hail Mary pass saved the game for the forces of light. On any other night, Coach Night King would be lifting the trophy.

That's on paper, though. In the end, you can only beat them team in front of you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 06:03:42 PM
It was the best come back of all time.  Every coach dreams of drawing up a play that wins the game against all odds and coach Mel can retire content that she drew up the perfect play.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 01, 2019, 08:06:16 PM
Coach, what could you have done better to get the win?

Well Joanne, I think both teams had a good night, we fought hard, they fought hard, in the end it's all up to old gods and the new.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 01, 2019, 08:21:37 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwondermark.com%2Fc%2F2014-10-07-1067run.png&hash=a16cd3e6bf12d9d700696324699f4cd013751947)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 01, 2019, 09:02:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 02:23:06 PM
You are assuming the someone other than the NK could have laid a hand on Bran.  If that was the case then any of the attackers could just have put an arrow, spear or sword into him.  The NK waited until the battle was won.  When he approached Bran he was surrounded by his army and his senior undead dudes.

That's one of the clues that led me to my theory.  It was quite obvious to me that, had the wights been able to kill Bran, they'd have done so.  They were mindless killers in all other circumstances save that one.  It's pretty clear from that scene that only the NK could kill Bran, so there must be something about Bran that we haven't been shown.

It was a Night King himself who killed the last Three-Eyed Raven under fairly similar circumstances.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 01, 2019, 09:13:46 PM
The NK needed bran to erase history (whatever that entails) so I don't think he was going to kill him, maybe turn him like the other walkers. Why he didn't do that to the other three eyed crow I don't know, maybe he had already passed the majority of the power to bran
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 01, 2019, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 01, 2019, 09:02:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 01, 2019, 02:23:06 PM
You are assuming the someone other than the NK could have laid a hand on Bran.  If that was the case then any of the attackers could just have put an arrow, spear or sword into him.  The NK waited until the battle was won.  When he approached Bran he was surrounded by his army and his senior undead dudes.

That's one of the clues that led me to my theory.  It was quite obvious to me that, had the wights been able to kill Bran, they'd have done so.  They were mindless killers in all other circumstances save that one.

They didn't kill the original deserter from the Nights Watch. For some reason...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 02, 2019, 08:26:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 01, 2019, 10:10:31 PM
They didn't kill the original deserter from the Nights Watch. For some reason...

My recollection is that Will ran into White Walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 02, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
Off topic:

This sports analogy reminds me of a TV guy who used to cover Toronto FC in their early seasons. After a game, he would go up to a player who scored a goal or something and ask him something like this:

"So you scored a great goal in the 35th minute. You started from the back fed a good ball to Smith, who passed it back to you. You dribbled around two defence, shot at the goalie, who parried the ball back to you and you put it effortlesly in the back of the net. Tell us about it."

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 02, 2019, 09:46:30 AM
Here's another military strategy article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military (https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military)

At some point, people need to chill and realize it's just a show about dragons, kings and tits (though not so much the latter anymore)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 09:58:37 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 02, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
Off topic:

This sports analogy reminds me of a TV guy who used to cover Toronto FC in their early seasons. After a game, he would go up to a player who scored a goal or something and ask him something like this:

"So you scored a great goal in the 35th minute. You started from the back fed a good ball to Smith, who passed it back to you. You dribbled around two defence, shot at the goalie, who parried the ball back to you and you put it effortlesly in the back of the net. Tell us about it."

God, what an awful question. There was, however, a conference where LeBron James managed to field something like that by basically just recalling every movement and reciting it. There are some videos out there about it--I've always found his recall incredibly impressive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 10:00:09 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 02, 2019, 09:46:30 AM
At some point, people need to chill and realize it's just a show about dragons, kings and tits (though not so much the latter anymore)

Yeah. At this point, I'm resigned to a Hollywood ending of Jon and Daenarys shacking up, the dragons having a million babies, Arya marrying Gendry and retiring to Storm's End, Sansa and Tyrion uniting the North with the Westerlands, Dorne being completely forgotten about, Bran's storyline being over (for no narrative purpose whatsoever), etc.

Anything above that I get is going to be gravy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 02, 2019, 10:20:45 AM
I want to hope the books will be resolved better, but for now I just hope we get books at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 02, 2019, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: celedhring on May 02, 2019, 10:20:45 AM
I want to hope the books will be resolved better, but for now I just hope we get books at all.

The show left the books a long time ago.  No reason to think the books will be dumbed down to this level.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 02, 2019, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: celedhring on May 02, 2019, 10:20:45 AM
I want to hope the books will be resolved better, but for now I just hope we get books at all.

The show left the books a long time ago.  No reason to think the books will be dumbed down to this level.

Yep. The books are definitely not going to end with dumb, out-of-character actions like we see in the show. But the books are also unlikely to come swiftly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 02, 2019, 10:59:40 AM
It's hard to guess what the ending is going to be in the books because we don't know yet who is going to write the final book in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 02, 2019, 11:26:17 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 02, 2019, 10:59:40 AM
It's hard to guess what the ending is going to be in the books because we don't know yet who is going to write the final book in the series.

Sanderson, surely. :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 02, 2019, 11:34:55 AM
When the mercenary captain presented himself and his Golden Company, he gave his name... Does anyone remember his name, and didn't it have some significance in the books...?  I can't remember anything...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2019, 11:39:42 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 02, 2019, 11:34:55 AM
When the mercenary captain presented himself and his Golden Company, he gave his name... Does anyone remember his name, and didn't it have some significance in the books...?  I can't remember anything...

It's Harry Strickland, IIRC. The character exists in the books, but is very different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Yep, still Strickland, but no mention of his Blackfyre sympathies in the show. That would be a pretty weird plot to draw up at the moment.

More likely, they've just decided to combine the Aegon/Connington storyline into Cersei's for sake of time and simplicity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 02, 2019, 12:11:02 PM
THE GRIFFON SHALE RISE AGAIN




in the books...I hope  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 02, 2019, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Yep, still Strickland, but no mention of his Blackfyre sympathies in the show. That would be a pretty weird plot to draw up at the moment.

More likely, they've just decided to combine the Aegon/Connington storyline into Cersei's for sake of time and simplicity.

No way they include Blackfyre stuff at this point in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:15:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 02, 2019, 12:11:02 PM
THE GRIFFON SHALE RISE AGAIN




in the books...I hope  :P

Connington and friends are the mummer's dragon. They're toast.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:31:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 02, 2019, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Yep, still Strickland, but no mention of his Blackfyre sympathies in the show. That would be a pretty weird plot to draw up at the moment.

More likely, they've just decided to combine the Aegon/Connington storyline into Cersei's for sake of time and simplicity.

No way they include Blackfyre stuff at this point in the series.

If they only had another season.  :cry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 02, 2019, 12:33:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:15:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 02, 2019, 12:11:02 PM
THE GRIFFON SHALE RISE AGAIN




in the books...I hope  :P

Connington and friends are the mummer's dragon. They're toast.  :P

Maybe. Maybe they win for a bit and then eventually lose. I have high hopes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:38:45 PM
Oh, I think it's clear they're going to win for a bit. I think Aegon even sits the throne for a little while before getting obliterated by dragons.

The Golden Company is going to shred a Reach army a la Agincourt, in my opinion. Longbows and talented leadership vs. the Knights of Summer and Mace Tyrell? Say good night.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 02, 2019, 12:45:14 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:38:45 PM
Oh, I think it's clear they're going to win for a bit. I think Aegon even sits the throne for a little while before getting obliterated by dragons.

The Golden Company is going to shred a Reach army a la Agincourt, in my opinion. Longbows and talented leadership vs. the Knights of Summer and Mace Tyrell? Say good night.

Ah man that would be great! This takes me back to 2011 when I was so excited for the next book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 02, 2019, 12:53:47 PM
I'm still pretty excited. I'm just more realistic. I still hold out hope the next book's release will be announced at the end of the show or shortly thereafter.

Maybe once the limelight fades a bit from GRRM, he'll crank out the 7th book. A man can hope.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 02, 2019, 06:23:35 PM
What Martin really should do is take a page from the corporate world and take on a partner.  Another writer who gets his style and can help him fill out blanks, fix up incomplete narratives, edit, etc. It does seem like he has a decent amount of material written - it's just not well organized or near publication condition.

Martin has reached the institutional stage of his career and needs to adjust to that reality.  He's no longer just some guy writing novels, he is running a content platform.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2019, 09:41:57 PM
It's been a long time since we've had two such disappointing episodes in a row.  WTF are Benioff and Weiss thinking?  This isn't ending the show in epic fashion, it is limping towards the finish, with gaping plot holes slowing things towards a crawl.

Oh, and fuck Sansa.  I'm now hoping for a bad end for her.

Looks like Arya is going to ninja the end of this (or else get killed trying, which would be something of a nice twist), but at least we will get Cleganebowl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 05, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
Probably the best episode of this season, though that is faint praise indeed.

Also, Dany and Jon are just fucking incompetent. Cersei should win this war because she actually does strategically intelligent things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 05, 2019, 09:50:47 PM
And so at least we find out why the show built up the Grey Worm/Missandei fanfic romance: to emotionally manipulate viewers when they inevitably used one of them as a plot prop.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2019, 10:13:05 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 05, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
Probably the best episode of this season, though that is faint praise indeed.

Also, Dany and Jon are just fucking incompetent. Cersei should win this war because she actually does strategically intelligent things.
Ep 2 was great.

Jon and Dani are hindered by really dumb writing.  How do ships ambush dragons?  Why didn't Dani just come in behind the Iron fleet and torch it (for that matter, why didn't Euron have the super-scorpions on the backs of his ships as well as the front)?  Just dumb all the way down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 05, 2019, 10:15:20 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 05, 2019, 09:50:47 PM
And so at least we find out why the show built up the Grey Worm/Missandei fanfic romance: to emotionally manipulate viewers when they inevitably used one of them as a plot prop.

Sigh.

Neither of them should have lived through the Long Night.

Also, since all of the other raised dead crumpled into ice when the NK died, why didn't undead Lady Mormont and the undead Dothraki do so, as well?

Plot loopholes all the way down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on May 05, 2019, 10:21:33 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 05, 2019, 09:50:47 PM
And so at least we find out why the show built up the Grey Worm/Missandei fanfic romance: to emotionally manipulate viewers when they inevitably used one of them as a plot prop.

Sigh.

Of course. Once they started dreaming of retirement into the countryside, you knew it was going to end poorly. It was the equivalent of the cop celebrating his last day before retirement: you just know he's going to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 06, 2019, 01:43:18 AM
I can't believe how terrible this show has gotten in terms of writing since they left the source material.  I knew it wouldn't maintain the top notch quality it was based on, but... this is just embarrassing.  A lot of the awfulness of this episode has been touched upon and I'm still a bit too flabbergasted to list all my personal issues.  Here is one small piece that someone linked the reason why idiotic Dany and moron friends were ambushed in the post show "Behind the Scenes" thing they do.  "While Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron's forces, they certainly haven't forgotten about her."  From the lips of David Benioff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2019, 04:14:27 AM
Benioff is an arrogant dullard who only got his job because his dad ran Goldman Sachs, but I'm not sure that the show-runners are wholly responsible for the decline. I think this is GRRMs plot, and the reason he's taking so long is that he knows it will be a let-down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 06, 2019, 05:19:59 AM
They know they can get away with writing history's most expensive fan fiction because we're all way too invested to stop watching this dumb show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 06, 2019, 06:57:19 AM
It is pretty clear that the writers of the show don't believe in scouting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 06, 2019, 07:52:01 AM
I think after this episode I've now resigned myself that this series is like the Big Bang Theory: its prime is way past it, and I am just watching it to completion for completion's sake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 08:17:46 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2019, 04:14:27 AM
Benioff is an arrogant dullard who only got his job because his dad ran Goldman Sachs, but I'm not sure that the show-runners are wholly responsible for the decline. I think this is GRRMs plot, and the reason he's taking so long is that he knows it will be a let-down.

There is no reason to think this is Martin's plot.  The plot in the books diverged from the show long before last season.  The reason he is taking so long is likely because he has many more plot lines to resolve, including many more possible ways to end the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 05, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
Probably the best episode of this season, though that is faint praise indeed.

Also, Dany and Jon are just fucking incompetent. Cersei should win this war because she actually does strategically intelligent things.

Perhaps she will.


But if she does die, I'm thinking now it will be at the hands of Arya. Jaime will die trying, but he won't be able to "climb the mountain".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 06, 2019, 06:57:19 AM
It is pretty clear that the writers of the show don't believe in scouting.

Or rather the scouts in the air at the time, two of which had dragon like senses, failed to notice the enemy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 08:39:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 08:17:46 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2019, 04:14:27 AM
Benioff is an arrogant dullard who only got his job because his dad ran Goldman Sachs, but I'm not sure that the show-runners are wholly responsible for the decline. I think this is GRRMs plot, and the reason he's taking so long is that he knows it will be a let-down.

There is no reason to think this is Martin's plot.  The plot in the books diverged from the show long before last season.  The reason he is taking so long is likely because he has many more plot lines to resolve, including many more possible ways to end the series.

I think it's entirely likely that huge portions are Martin's plot (Cersei's intransigence, the death of another dragon by Euron somehow, and Daenarys's heel-turn), but that Martin is able to take much more time to elaborate on things than the show is able to do in the limited time it has left.

If the show had a season devoted to the war against the dead, then a truncated final season vs. Cersei, I think things would have been fine.

Regardless, the show is still amongst the highest-quality on TV right now and has two episodes left. I did greatly enjoy parts of last night even if the glaring plotholes are getting to be too much. We're getting resolution one way or the other...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 09:12:09 AM
They didn't even have to be scouting. have you ever been on a plane and looked out a window? You can see for miles. Was Danaerys sleeping on the dragon? Maybe thinking about how she planned on killing Jon and getting him out of the way, and failed to notice the ships ahead of them?
Maybe the ships were behind a smoke screen? Maybe she was up in the clouds?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 06, 2019, 09:33:30 AM
Also astoundingly good fire control from the Iron Born.  If Euron had been at Jutland, the war would have ended that day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 05, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
Probably the best episode of this season, though that is faint praise indeed.

Also, Dany and Jon are just fucking incompetent. Cersei should win this war because she actually does strategically intelligent things.

Perhaps she will.


But if she does die, I'm thinking now it will be at the hands of Arya. Jaime will die trying, but he won't be able to "climb the mountain".

maybe they will all die and then Lord Gendry will be the only one left.

Quote from: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 08:39:43 AM
I think it's entirely likely that huge portions are Martin's plot (Cersei's intransigence, the death of another dragon by Euron somehow, and Daenarys's heel-turn),

Euron is a composite character so I think that is unlikely.  But it is likely that faction of Iron Born play a role in the battles with Dani's army in some way.  At best this show is a faint echo.  And that weakness is made more apparent by the absence of books to provide the actual storyline.  There are many more characters and plot lines the books could progress down toward a resolution.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on May 06, 2019, 10:33:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 06, 2019, 06:57:19 AM
It is pretty clear that the writers of the show don't believe in scouting.

Or rather the scouts in the air at the time, two of which had dragon like senses, failed to notice the enemy.

Who needs to scout when you have Bran... er wait.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 06, 2019, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: PRC on May 06, 2019, 10:33:37 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 06, 2019, 06:57:19 AM
It is pretty clear that the writers of the show don't believe in scouting.

Or rather the scouts in the air at the time, two of which had dragon like senses, failed to notice the enemy.

Who needs to scout when you have Bran... er wait.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 11:05:33 AM
This A.V. Club article talks about the Starbucks cup. and then links to other flaws in the episode

https://news.avclub.com/its-canon-now-westeros-has-a-starbucks-1834551746 (https://news.avclub.com/its-canon-now-westeros-has-a-starbucks-1834551746)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 11:49:52 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 11:05:33 AM
This A.V. Club article talks about the Starbucks cup. and then links to other flaws in the episode

https://news.avclub.com/its-canon-now-westeros-has-a-starbucks-1834551746 (https://news.avclub.com/its-canon-now-westeros-has-a-starbucks-1834551746)

They make a good point about the dialogue moving away from the style of the books.  One thing that really stuck out was when Jon had his two cousins swear not to tell anyone, they did not swear by the "Old Gods and the New".   The Seven Kingdoms have become devoid of religious conviction.  No wonder Sansa had no problem breaking her oath.  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
Character and setting giving way to plot is to be expected when the show's going at light-speed like this. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
Character and setting giving way to plot is to be expected when the show's going at light-speed like this. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

It shows the poor choices in editing/writing.  5 seconds of giving the traditional oath vs. how many minutes of drinking scenes that don't advance the plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 06, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
Character and setting giving way to plot is to be expected when the show's going at light-speed like this. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

It shows the poor choices in editing/writing.  5 seconds of giving the traditional oath vs. how many minutes of drinking scenes that don't advance the plot.

This.  The plot didn't move at all for the vast majority of the show. They should have moved the Varys story forward so that, by the end of this episode, Dani had executed him but become hyper-paranoid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 02:04:44 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 05, 2019, 10:15:20 PM
Also, since all of the other raised dead crumpled into ice when the NK died, why didn't undead Lady Mormont and the undead Dothraki do so, as well?

Only the White Walkers shattered into ice, the regular wights just fell down as corpses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 06, 2019, 03:27:05 PM
Whats with the rapid fire crossbows in the world? Both small and large Were the ballistas so quick firing before? I'm sure I recall that when they were demonstrated they were far more realistic and slow :hmm:

Also...why didn't Cersei just blast Dani?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 06, 2019, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 11:49:52 AMOne thing that really stuck out was when Jon had his two cousins swear not to tell anyone, they did not swear by the "Old Gods and the New".   

I was actually waiting for this bit ... which never came.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 03:54:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 06, 2019, 03:27:05 PM
Whats with the rapid fire crossbows in the world? Both small and large Were the ballistas so quick firing before? I'm sure I recall that when they were demonstrated they were far more realistic and slow :hmm:

Also...why didn't Cersei just blast Dani?

there was more than one, though; so they may have been firing in succession.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
There's been a kind of leak of what happens in episodes 4-6. It's not certain if it's all true, but much of it did happen in episode 4. Warning, do not click this unless you are fine with potentially massive spoilers including the final resolution: SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER (https://i.imgur.com/xfaXYL2.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
Also, on a bit more funny note, we now got the second Baratheon guy rejected by a Stark girl. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 06, 2019, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
There's been a kind of leak of what happens in episodes 4-6. It's not certain if it's all true, but much of it did happen in episode 4. Warning, do not click this unless you are fine with potentially massive spoilers including the final resolution: SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER (https://i.imgur.com/xfaXYL2.jpg)
Some of the episode 4 information is already wrong though.  If that is how it ends up though... woof.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 06, 2019, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
There's been a kind of leak of what happens in episodes 4-6. It's not certain if it's all true, but much of it did happen in episode 4. Warning, do not click this unless you are fine with potentially massive spoilers including the final resolution: SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER (https://i.imgur.com/xfaXYL2.jpg)
Some of the episode 4 information is already wrong though.  If that is how it ends up though... woof.

It only got one minor thing wrong, though, and it's something that might still happen. Everything else (so far) happened in episode 4.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on May 06, 2019, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Euron is a composite character so I think that is unlikely.

I don't think so. There are enough hints in the book that Book Euron may have had some mystic way to defeat dragons. Since Show Euron is a much impoverished character, they may have simply gone for balista.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: citizen k on May 06, 2019, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 06, 2019, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Euron is a composite character so I think that is unlikely.

I don't think so. There are enough hints in the book that Book Euron may have had some mystic way to defeat dragons. Since Show Euron is a much impoverished character, they may have simply gone for balista.
He was into blood magic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 05:15:50 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 06, 2019, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Euron is a composite character so I think that is unlikely.

I don't think so. There are enough hints in the book that Book Euron may have had some mystic way to defeat dragons. Since Show Euron is a much impoverished character, they may have simply gone for balista.

Krakens are coming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 06, 2019, 05:41:49 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 06, 2019, 03:54:18 PM
there was more than one, though; so they may have been firing in succession.

Sure, and with the Valyrian Aegis defense system to coordinate fire against a distant moving aerial target.

Anyway you play it, just boils down to hand-waving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 06, 2019, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 06, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Euron is a composite character so I think that is unlikely.

I don't think so. There are enough hints in the book that Book Euron may have had some mystic way to defeat dragons. Since Show Euron is a much impoverished character, they may have simply gone for balista.

That is what I was trying to get at.  In the show he is a composite of book Euron (that never really appeared in the show other than to win the election) and his brother who is more of the Euron who appeared in the show.  At best what occurred in the show is something his brother would have done and might try to do.  Euron in the books is going to be a much more formidable adversary. 

The point being that the plot in the books is going to be much more complex than the simple and silly plot we see in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 06, 2019, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 05, 2019, 09:50:47 PM
And so at least we find out why the show built up the Grey Worm/Missandei fanfic romance: to emotionally manipulate viewers when they inevitably used one of them as a plot prop.

Sigh.
I don't understand how she got captured...  She was supposed to be on a boar/skiff, so, she could pick up other survivors, and then, she heads in the direction opposite to the rest of the troops just to be captured?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 06, 2019, 10:53:33 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 06, 2019, 09:33:30 AM
Also astoundingly good fire control from the Iron Born.  If Euron had been at Jutland, the war would have ended that day.
one of so many sillyness...  Maybe he is a secret mage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2019, 11:23:25 PM
I don't mind the ballistas. It makes sense that, in 300 years, technological advancement has reduced the efficacy of dragons. It should be cannons firing grapeshot, but whatever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 07, 2019, 12:01:36 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2019, 11:23:25 PM
It should be cannons firing grapeshot, but whatever.

:wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 07, 2019, 02:24:09 AM
And brons crossbow?
Amazing how bron seems to have also had faceless man training to sneak into a room containing 2 of the lands most important men like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 07, 2019, 02:31:30 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 07, 2019, 02:24:09 AM
And brons crossbow?
Amazing how bron seems to have also had faceless man training to sneak into a room containing 2 of the lands most important men like that.

Which reminds me that of course the whole dilemma of how to siege is pointless because based on her feats to date, Arya would have zero trouble assassinating Cercei, removing any need for a siege.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2019, 07:10:11 AM
The Bronn scene was simply....well, ludicrous. On so many different levels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 07, 2019, 07:12:55 AM
Bronn is basically Kramer so it actually makes all sorts of sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2019, 07:21:37 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 07, 2019, 07:12:55 AM
Bronn is basically Kramer so it actually makes all sorts of sense.

Nobody within Winterfell knows that.  It's part of the rushed writing that allowed a stranger into the Keep (remember the famous Northern distrust highlighted in the first episode of this season-the writers didn't) and allowing a potential assassin into that room without explanation.  They repeatedly forget about the world carefully crafted for them in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Legbiter on May 07, 2019, 07:31:49 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 06, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
Character and setting giving way to plot is to be expected when the show's going at light-speed like this. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

Yeah, they have to shoehorn the plot in order to get all the characters into place in time for the conclusion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 07, 2019, 07:37:29 AM
Even if you accept that he could get into that room, the entire conversation was so stupid it isn't even funny. THe agreement makes no sense.

The entire thing was fucking pointless. It just makes it completely clear that they write the show one episode at a time. If this was the result of the entire "Hey Bronn, go kill my brothers" mini story arc....why? It advances nothing, it adds nothing, it just takes up time and screen space without doing anything. When the writers sent Bronn off, they clearly had no idea what would happen when he go there - because if they did, they wouldn't include that mini story at all.

And it is a complete waste of a perfectly usable plot artifact. I am not a writer, but I can come up with three ideas sitting here right now that would have been better than that.

1. Have Bronn ambush the leadership party in an attempt to assasinate Tyrion. He misses, but wounds Dany in the process, which is why she was not able to join the army heading south, hence the need to send her by ship with the dragons. IN the ensuing scuffle, Tyrion kills Bronn.
2. Bronn tries to kill Jaime, but Brienne saves Jaime, taking the bolt intended for him. This super pisses off Jaime, who heads south to deal with his sister, after he kills Bronn. Heck, you could even use this to have jaime kind of realize he is still a pretty damn good fighter.
3. Bronn gets himself to a spot to kill one or both from hiding, and decides he isn't going to do so just because he has a redemptive moment and decides he is tired of killing people for money, and wants to do something right for a change.

Hell, any or all of those ideas might be terrible for one reason or another. I actually really like #2, but whatever. The point is that they would at least have a point, and the current story has none.

Bronn is sent to kill the brothers.
He confronts them.
They talk.
He agrees not to kill them in return for a promise they cannot fulfill.
He leaves, and tells them he will look them up after the war.

How is any of that better than him never even leaving Kings Landing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 09:12:44 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwondermark.com%2Fc%2F2019-05-07-1476puzzle.png&hash=1156d45ad17d8ddb0e2549217b0ee9ade8b999ce)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 07, 2019, 10:10:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 07, 2019, 07:37:29 AM
How is any of that better than him never even leaving Kings Landing?
he has to leave Kings Landing, or his realm, actually.  Otherwise, Cersei's spies (Qyburn's, really) would know he won't fulfill the contract and he's a dead man walking.

That does not mean the way it was done was so great...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 07, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 09:12:44 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftalk.consimworld.com%2FWebX%3F233%40%40.1dcebedd%2F58783%21enclosure%3D.1de06e63&hash=a30abaf4c54c634e14e06360ba2c7a6a36afebaf)
We can't see the picture unless we're registered...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 10:17:53 AM
Edited.  :sleep:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 07, 2019, 10:36:35 AM
Remember when this show was genuinely good?

The North remembers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 10:38:56 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 07, 2019, 10:36:35 AM
The North remembers.

Speaking of butchered storylines that would have been easier and better-solved just by going for the consistency angle...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2019, 11:07:00 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 10:17:53 AM
Edited.  :sleep:

That was perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 07, 2019, 12:35:10 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 10:17:53 AM
Edited.  :sleep:
thank you! :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 07, 2019, 05:45:33 PM
If they didn't know how to close some character's arcs they should have killed more of them!

You can genuinely feel the writer's utter disinterest in that Bronn scene  :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 07, 2019, 06:31:13 PM
Hopefully we get a reboot if Martin ever finishes the books. Seasons 7-8 are really really poorly written.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 08:22:06 PM
If the books are finished, and they are well-received, and the off-shoot shows are decent, I think it's entirely possible we'll get a reboot in 20-30 years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 07, 2019, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 08:22:06 PM
If the books are finished, and they are well-received, and the off-shoot shows are decent, I think it's entirely possible we'll get a reboot in 20-30 years.

I think it is optimistic to think the show would reboot only a few months after the last book is published.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 08, 2019, 12:58:47 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 07, 2019, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 07, 2019, 08:22:06 PM
If the books are finished, and they are well-received, and the off-shoot shows are decent, I think it's entirely possible we'll get a reboot in 20-30 years.

I think it is optimistic to think the show would reboot only a few months after the last book is published.

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 08, 2019, 07:57:19 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/J4WexIQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Strangely accurate.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:01:54 AM
Do you guys think that someone might leave the show with a damaged reputation? I don't know what are Benioff & Weiss' job prospects once the show is over, but I wouldn't be super optimistic about them at this point. I'd say that they were good stewards of the product while they had Martin's framework to follow and adapt, but once they were on their own they've shown to be way more unreliable than expected. Don't know how the last two episodes might change this perception by now, but who knows...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2019, 08:49:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:01:54 AM
Do you guys think that someone might leave the show with a damaged reputation? I don't know what are Benioff & Weiss' job prospects once the show is over, but I wouldn't be super optimistic about them at this point.

They're off to do Star Wars. I don't see that changing. Disney cares about success.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 08, 2019, 08:49:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:01:54 AM
Do you guys think that someone might leave the show with a damaged reputation? I don't know what are Benioff & Weiss' job prospects once the show is over, but I wouldn't be super optimistic about them at this point.

They're off to do Star Wars. I don't see that changing. Disney cares about success.

What Star Wars stuff? I haven't really followed their post current trilogy plans...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2019, 09:07:54 AM
Not really a whole lot of info about it just yet--just that D&D are responsible for either the next Star Wars series or one of the coming movies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 08, 2019, 09:08:47 AM
At least they can't make space much darker than it should be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 08, 2019, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 08, 2019, 07:57:19 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/J4WexIQ.jpg)


:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 08, 2019, 10:51:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 08, 2019, 08:49:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:01:54 AM
Do you guys think that someone might leave the show with a damaged reputation? I don't know what are Benioff & Weiss' job prospects once the show is over, but I wouldn't be super optimistic about them at this point.

They're off to do Star Wars. I don't see that changing. Disney cares about success.

What Star Wars stuff? I haven't really followed their post current trilogy plans...

They will apparently be involved with the Old Republic series. Oh well, I was rather looking forward to that, but now I guess it'll be shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 08, 2019, 10:59:27 AM
Eh. Just because they fan-fic and drop the characterization landing on GOT (which isn't quite guaranteed, as there are two more episodes), doesn't mean they'll do the same with something like Star Wars where they get to build it themselves. Hopefully with better writers at the helm...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 08, 2019, 11:09:24 AM
They're in kind of a tough spot - they're trying to come in with a nice and tidy conclusion to source material that isn't even theirs, when the original author has famously been unable to come up with a nice and tidy conclusion.

It's tough to say how they'll do: doing some quick research pre-GOT both just had some history as writers.  They'd never directed or produced anything before.  Now obviously GOT has turned out well for them, whether or not they stick the landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 08, 2019, 12:44:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 08, 2019, 11:09:24 AM
They're in kind of a tough spot - they're trying to come in with a nice and tidy conclusion to source material that isn't even theirs, when the original author has famously been unable to come up with a nice and tidy conclusion.

It's tough to say how they'll do: doing some quick research pre-GOT both just had some history as writers.  They'd never directed or produced anything before.  Now obviously GOT has turned out well for them, whether or not they stick the landing.

:huh:

Why do you think the author has not "come up with a conclusion"?   As Grumbler pointed out earlier he did in fact tell the show producers how he intended to wrap things up.  The question is whether the show has actually followed that lead.  The answer is likely not since their falling out had to do with the same problem.

This is not about "sticking the landing" this and the last season have been poorly done. Without the source material actually written out for them they are lost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 08, 2019, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 08, 2019, 08:01:54 AM
Do you guys think that someone might leave the show with a damaged reputation? I don't know what are Benioff & Weiss' job prospects once the show is over, but I wouldn't be super optimistic about them at this point. I'd say that they were good stewards of the product while they had Martin's framework to follow and adapt, but once they were on their own they've shown to be way more unreliable than expected. Don't know how the last two episodes might change this perception by now, but who knows...

The show's a success and made HBO lots of money. What's damaging to their reputation?
Really the ones constantly complaining about the show, us, are a very small percentage of their viewership.
No, i don't have stats to back me, but I have a gut feeling B & W are laughing all the way to the Iron Bank
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 08, 2019, 01:59:19 PM
https://9gag.com/gag/a6O38e9
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 08, 2019, 05:46:31 PM
https://www.tor.com/2019/05/08/doing-the-math-on-game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4/?fbclid=IwAR3wiZudYuWybw9cBBtH8n5iEI2r7ZY3XNuQseoGuvQ1G2ESW0pA0gaKoBk

Summary:

Given what we saw with Eurons super scorpion, those would have had to be traveling about 2000 m/s. Roughly twice the speed of a modern sniper rifle.

My god, it is just so fucking stupid. The entire scene was just so lame.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 08, 2019, 06:03:07 PM
I saw another from an aerospace engineer that calculated the torque of their ballista as around half that of the Saturn V...

What a mess of an ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 08, 2019, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 08, 2019, 05:46:31 PM
https://www.tor.com/2019/05/08/doing-the-math-on-game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4/?fbclid=IwAR3wiZudYuWybw9cBBtH8n5iEI2r7ZY3XNuQseoGuvQ1G2ESW0pA0gaKoBk

Summary:

Given what we saw with Eurons super scorpion, those would have had to be traveling about 2000 m/s. Roughly twice the speed of a modern sniper rifle.

My god, it is just so fucking stupid. The entire scene was just so lame.

QuoteI saw more than one complaint online from folks who doubted that bolts from a ballista could actually blow through dragons and ships in the ways depicted. Knowing something about real ballistae, I thought the same myself when I first watched the episode.

But you know what? I've got to give credit where it is due now that I've seen the numbers. A bolt cutting through the air at friggin' hypersonic speed would indeed obliterate anything in its path

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 08, 2019, 06:06:43 PM
I remember thinking when Tyion dropped off the ship that Nelson probably would have like to have cannonballs with that much power behind them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 08, 2019, 08:00:02 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.

Sure, slow moving train wrecks are irresistible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on May 08, 2019, 09:08:46 PM
I quite enjoy the column devoted to Game of Thrones in the L. A. Review of Books:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-last-starks?fbclid=IwAR2Ygo0d0_AfFMXXWLS9HaAGZ2tUOepLLfpJrDS65Cb_FBUuIdea8OlgCeA
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2019, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.

I actually haven't watched an episode since Season 2. I just started to get annoyed by the little differences between the books and the show, so many of my favorite little things were getting left out. I knew it was petty but I figured later I would get over it and catch up. But then I heard about how they mangled one of the my favorite parts of the books: the Dorne stuff. And then they left out another one of mine in Jon Connington and the Golden Company. And now I hear it sucks shit and is lame.

So...I still plan on watching the whole thing some day. But I am not in a super hurry.

In a weird way I tend to get the gist of every episode just by osmosis, just existing on the internet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 09, 2019, 12:56:28 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 08, 2019, 05:46:31 PM
https://www.tor.com/2019/05/08/doing-the-math-on-game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4/?fbclid=IwAR3wiZudYuWybw9cBBtH8n5iEI2r7ZY3XNuQseoGuvQ1G2ESW0pA0gaKoBk

Summary:

Given what we saw with Eurons super scorpion, those would have had to be traveling about 2000 m/s. Roughly twice the speed of a modern sniper rifle.

My god, it is just so fucking stupid. The entire scene was just so lame.

So what is better: Euron's scorpions or WWII German 88mm flak cannons?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 07:05:13 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 08, 2019, 06:03:07 PM
I saw another from an aerospace engineer that calculated the torque of their ballista as around half that of the Saturn V...

What a mess of an ending.

I met someone the other day who said dragons are too heavy too fly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 09, 2019, 07:25:05 AM
 :yes: It would have been good if, in like season 2, instead of being like "where are my dragons," Dany gets all concerned because her dragons haven't learned to fly, so it's more "why aren't my dragons flying." And then somebody says, like, "Khaleesi, your dragons are too fat to fly." So then she puts them on a diet, but they die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 09, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.

Of course, there is 2 episodes left of what is probably the last show that brings us all together. We have to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 09, 2019, 07:47:33 AM
A minor thing, but the outskirts of King's Landing looked like a desert wasteland, and I'm pretty sure there was a lot of lush forest there in previous seasons. I guess building those AA batteries required a lot of materials...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 09, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.

Of course, there is 2 episodes left of what is probably the last show that brings us all together. We have to watch.

We need to find something else we all watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 09, 2019, 09:15:36 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 09, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.

Of course, there is 2 episodes left of what is probably the last show that brings us all together. We have to watch.

We need to find something else we all watch.

I'm guessing The Mandalorian will bring us together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 10:48:11 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 09, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 08, 2019, 07:36:51 PM
This show is indeed stupid, but you all will still watch the next episode. I will.

Of course, there is 2 episodes left of what is probably the last show that brings us all together. We have to watch.

We need to find something else we all watch.

We will all drift apart after this and return every time there is a Danish or Spanish election so we can cast our Languish votes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 12:51:14 PM
From the A. V. Club: https://www.avclub.com/why-didn-t-daenerys-torch-euron-who-s-side-is-jaime-on-1834599395?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SF (https://www.avclub.com/why-didn-t-daenerys-torch-euron-who-s-side-is-jaime-on-1834599395?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SF)


Keegan asks: Why didn't Dany use dragonfire on Euron's fleet? And how in the seven hells did she hear what Missandei's last words were from that far away?


What? You didn't think her strategy of dive-bombing all of those dragon-killing crossbows for no reason was wise? Let me guess, you also expected her to fly behind them and burn them instead of fleeing? What are you, a military genius?

No, seriously, are you? The leaders of Westeros could really use your help, after Jon inexplicably sent the Dothraki off to die last week, and Daenerys, despite being able to fly high above any possible threat, couldn't see the most predictable ambush in history coming. Why did they assume Dragonstone, which isn't far from King's Landing, would be safe? It's a big-ass castle with huge strategic value. No one considered the possibility Cersei would see its value or Daenerys would return to it? "Hey, Tyrion, what would you say you do here?"

Just like with the Loot Train Attack and Euron's nighttime attack on veteran Ironborn, clearly no one in the Seven Kingdoms has ever heard of advanced scouts.

As for Missandei's final "dracarys," Daenerys could hear her for two reasons. One, King's Landing is now inexplicably located in a desert, so the sound traveled. Second, Daenerys wasn't that far away. She thought it was a good idea to stand with a tiny force near her fortified enemy, a vengeful mad queen who then decided not to murder Daenerys and put an end to the war. It was... it was weird. Seriously, are you a military genius? The realm should be accepting applications.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 09, 2019, 01:02:51 PM
I wish we could have a show where the heroes and the villains were both intelligent and the villains didn't get wins for no reason other than that Hollywood writing apparently dictates the audience can only root for the underdog.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2019, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 12:51:14 PM
a vengeful mad queen who then decided not to murder Daenerys and put an end to the war. It was... it was weird. Seriously, are you a military genius? The realm should be accepting applications.
no need to be a military genius for that part.

If they shoot and miss, which is quite likely, given it is very slow and a human is a small target that can move fast, the dragon flies and burns them before they can reload.  Unless they have repeating scorpions, not an unlikely thought given their heat seaking targetting ordinances...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 02:07:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 09, 2019, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 12:51:14 PM
a vengeful mad queen who then decided not to murder Daenerys and put an end to the war. It was... it was weird. Seriously, are you a military genius? The realm should be accepting applications.
no need to be a military genius for that part.

If they shoot and miss, which is quite likely, given it is very slow and a human is a small target that can move fast, the dragon flies and burns them before they can reload.  Unless they have repeating scorpions, not an unlikely thought given their heat seaking targetting ordinances...

Hey, you could be a writer for the show  :P

You are missing the possibility that a force sallies from the City, overwhelms Dani's tiny group, and wins the war.  And the dragon - that is what the projectile weapons are for.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 09, 2019, 03:03:15 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 02:07:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 09, 2019, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 12:51:14 PM
a vengeful mad queen who then decided not to murder Daenerys and put an end to the war. It was... it was weird. Seriously, are you a military genius? The realm should be accepting applications.
no need to be a military genius for that part.

If they shoot and miss, which is quite likely, given it is very slow and a human is a small target that can move fast, the dragon flies and burns them before they can reload.  Unless they have repeating scorpions, not an unlikely thought given their heat seaking targetting ordinances...

Hey, you could be a writer for the show  :P

You are missing the possibility that a force sallies from the City, overwhelms Dani's tiny group, and wins the war.  And the dragon - that is what the projectile weapons are for.
the small force of Dany backs away to rejoin the main group hiding behind the hills while the dragon covers their retreat. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 03:15:45 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 09, 2019, 03:03:15 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 02:07:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 09, 2019, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 09, 2019, 12:51:14 PM
a vengeful mad queen who then decided not to murder Daenerys and put an end to the war. It was... it was weird. Seriously, are you a military genius? The realm should be accepting applications.
no need to be a military genius for that part.

If they shoot and miss, which is quite likely, given it is very slow and a human is a small target that can move fast, the dragon flies and burns them before they can reload.  Unless they have repeating scorpions, not an unlikely thought given their heat seaking targetting ordinances...



Hey, you could be a writer for the show  :P

You are missing the possibility that a force sallies from the City, overwhelms Dani's tiny group, and wins the war.  And the dragon - that is what the projectile weapons are for.
the small force of Dany backs away to rejoin the main group hiding behind the hills while the dragon covers their retreat. ;)

The dragon would have had to fly forward into range of the projectile weapons.  Dani and her group were on foot and easily caught.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 03:15:45 PM
The dragon would have had to fly forward into range of the projectile weapons.  Dani and her group were on foot and easily caught.
The moment they see an army get out, they back away in formation.  The dragon only needs to breathe fire on them while backing away too, he does not need to fly.  In fact, just breathe intense fire on the ground in front of the army, it will at least slow them down until the fire goes out, giving them time to retreat.  If they are on horses, the horses will fear fire naturally and panick, dismounting their knights.  But the Golden company seems mainly composed of foot soldiers...

And I figure, at least hope, Dani's backup wasn't too far away.  Because if that is the remnant of her fleet, she's in deep shit :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 10, 2019, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 03:15:45 PM
The dragon would have had to fly forward into range of the projectile weapons.  Dani and her group were on foot and easily caught.
The moment they see an army get out, they back away in formation.  The dragon only needs to breathe fire on them while backing away too, he does not need to fly.  In fact, just breathe intense fire on the ground in front of the army, it will at least slow them down until the fire goes out, giving them time to retreat.  If they are on horses, the horses will fear fire naturally and panick, dismounting their knights.  But the Golden company seems mainly composed of foot soldiers...

And I figure, at least hope, Dani's backup wasn't too far away.  Because if that is the remnant of her fleet, she's in deep shit :P

Her main force had yet to arrive.  The dragon was off in the distance to avoid the projectiles. Easy pickings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 12:17:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 10, 2019, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 09, 2019, 03:15:45 PM
The dragon would have had to fly forward into range of the projectile weapons.  Dani and her group were on foot and easily caught.
The moment they see an army get out, they back away in formation.  The dragon only needs to breathe fire on them while backing away too, he does not need to fly.  In fact, just breathe intense fire on the ground in front of the army, it will at least slow them down until the fire goes out, giving them time to retreat.  If they are on horses, the horses will fear fire naturally and panick, dismounting their knights.  But the Golden company seems mainly composed of foot soldiers...

And I figure, at least hope, Dani's backup wasn't too far away.  Because if that is the remnant of her fleet, she's in deep shit :P

Her main force had yet to arrive.  The dragon was off in the distance to avoid the projectiles. Easy pickings.
Yes her main force wasn't there, but she still had some Unsullied with her, more than what was shown.  At least I hope...

Any force coming out of the gates would have to close on them to attack.  That is where the dragon can come useful.

Not that it makes sense in any way...  Wait for the main force to lay siege, then negotiate.  Dorne and the Ironborn can show up later, reinforcing the blockade.

Sometimes I wonder if they make their characters do some stupid strategic mistakes or they just have never played any Total War game :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 10, 2019, 12:34:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 12:17:19 PM
Any force coming out of the gates would have to close on them to attack.  That is where the dragon can come useful.

Kings Landing is a very large city with many gates and sally ports.  Easy to send a force out to surround and capture/kill.  She has 20k mercenaries at her disposal after all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 08:43:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 10, 2019, 12:34:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 10, 2019, 12:17:19 PM
Any force coming out of the gates would have to close on them to attack.  That is where the dragon can come useful.

Kings Landing is a very large city with many gates and sally ports.  Easy to send a force out to surround and capture/kill.  She has 20k mercenaries at her disposal after all.
the way it is shown, it's like the only gate accessible to this part of the landscape.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 11, 2019, 04:50:46 AM
It looked like some small fortification TBH.


Really, my expectations for the last two episodes have plummeted to zero. I won't give up before the penultimate episode, but I fully expect them to be inconsistent drivel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 11, 2019, 11:49:04 AM
I'm in agreement with most of you who found the scorpion bolts way too damaging to the ships. Plus the dragon getting hit? First off, Dany was scouting the area and would have seen the enemy ships long before her fleet came in contact. That's what should have been happening since Dany and her commanders know the Iron Fleet is arrayed against them, a very powerful force that could be anywhere.

So the dragon shouldn't been close enough to be hit given that Dany would have seen the Iron fleet ships from  a distance. And could have seen the scorpions on deck, as she's seen the first dragon hit with a spear from the Undead King, and have taken precautions. Then she could have circled way around out of sight of the enemy ships, and approached from behind where the ship's sails/masts prevented the scorpions from shooting effectively. Could have flamed some of ships before the ships could maneuver to shoot back.

I wasn't happy with the battle at Winterfell either, as I said in an earlier post. All the Dothraki cavalry riding out un-supported and little idea of the nature of the enemy. They would have been better employed as a flanking force to swoop down on the enemy's rear during the battle. At that time they would have also had a better idea of what they were up against. Also the trebuchets should have been inside Winterfell walls, not in front of the Unsullied troops.

A much better battle scene could have been done in all those instances, and GoT certainly must have advisors on such things. So while I can understand that the studio probably wants to have some severe losses before probable eventual victory, I can't understand the botching of the battles tactics so badly.

Given the last Easter egg, I think all the armies should duke it out at the nearest Starbucks parking lot via duel by espresso..... ;) 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 12, 2019, 10:05:04 PM
Best episodes this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:08:40 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2019, 10:05:04 PM
Best episodes this season.

Best episode of the past 2 seasons.

Favorite part is when Jon stops and reflects on what is happening around him, and he's clearly thinking, "What if we're the baddies?"   :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 12, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
What an utter shit show.  This is embarrassingly bad at this point. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 12, 2019, 10:14:02 PM
I, at least, am happy to say that my interpretation of the books was correct. Fire and Blood, indeed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Legbiter on May 12, 2019, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:08:40 PMBest episode of the past 2 seasons.

Favorite part is when Jon stops and reflects on what is happening around him, and he's clearly thinking, "What if we're the baddies?"   :lol:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BriskShimmeringGraywolf-small.gif)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 12, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
What an utter shit show.  This is embarrassingly bad at this point. :(

It's utter schlock now. Just turn your brain off and appreciate it for what it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 12, 2019, 10:37:44 PM
I keep trying to lower my expectations.  I keep failing to go low enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 12, 2019, 10:37:51 PM
What was the point of Euron vs Jamie?

Why did the Breaker of Chains, who locked away her dragons for eating ONE child, decide to roast a city of millions? She really hates the sound of bells?

Great job on the Golden Company story arc. Totally worth the screen time.

Did they really fuck up 7 years of character development to have Jamie go back to being Cersei's lapdog? The guy who murdered his king Aerys because he was going to burn the city says he doesn't care about the smallfolk?

They've set up the next episode perfectly to have Jon or Arya murder Daenerys. The traditional hero kills the reformer woman in power because she's "emotional" or "unstable".

What the fuck. I reaaaaaaallllly hope GRRM does it differently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 12, 2019, 10:40:59 PM
The books foreshadowed Dany going
Mad king enough that it'll probably happen the the books too,  it probably not as clumsily.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 12, 2019, 11:02:29 PM
Where was it foreshadowed in the books? Serious question, it's been like 25 years since they first came out lol.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 12, 2019, 11:18:51 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 12, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
What an utter shit show.  This is embarrassingly bad at this point. :(

It's utter schlock now. Just turn your brain off and appreciate it for what it is.
that episode was great. Not perfect, but great.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 12, 2019, 11:25:08 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 12, 2019, 10:37:51 PM
Why did the Breaker of Chains, who locked away her dragons for eating ONE child, decide to roast a city of millions? She really hates the sound of bells?
Did you watch any of the episodes until now or did you just started to watch the show? :)

Daenerys is like her father, she likes to burn those who crosses her, insult her, betray her, stand against her.

The people of King's Landing didn't rose up in revolt after Cersei's crimes so they're against her, in her mind.

Everything so far as been leading up to this, and she kind lost anyone who could have tempered her down.   First, to Cersei's betrayal by not sending troops, then to Cersei's killing her closest friend.

Quote
Great job on the Golden Company story arc. Totally worth the screen time.
Yes, indeed. No, wait, that was sarcasm? I mean, did you read any of the books? The number of pages wasted on characters, developping them, having them killed offhanded?  :)

Quote
Did they really fuck up 7 years of character development to have Jamie go back to being Cersei's lapdog? The guy who murdered his king Aerys because he was going to burn the city says he doesn't care about the smallfolk?
He might have been sarcastic... he was shown to care, more than once.  Like when he rode north to fight for the people?

Quote
They've set up the next episode perfectly to have Jon or Arya murder Daenerys. The traditional hero kills the reformer woman in power because she's "emotional" or "unstable".
Good.  Women shouldn't be exempt from assassination just because they're women.  Women shouldn't be great rulers just because they're women.

Quote
What the fuck. I reaaaaaaallllly hope GRRM does it differently.
Not by much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2019, 11:30:06 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 12, 2019, 10:14:02 PM
I, at least, am happy to say that my interpretation of the books was correct. Fire and Blood, indeed.

He didn't choke the life from her.  But at least she had tears and hands were around her neck.  Two out of three prophesy points.

The scene between Tyrion and Jamie was excellent but did nobody notice he was gone? And what were they doing with Euron? That scene made no sense. Also, glad to see the dragon is powerful again - the other one didn't have enough plot armour I guess.  What was the point in killings it off in that silly way or at all?




Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 12, 2019, 11:33:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 12, 2019, 11:18:51 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 12, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
What an utter shit show.  This is embarrassingly bad at this point. :(

It's utter schlock now. Just turn your brain off and appreciate it for what it is.
that episode was great. Not perfect, but great.

I think the people who liked it are the same ones who liked the Avengers movie - better able to ignore bad writing and just enjoy the spectacle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 13, 2019, 12:02:09 AM
That episode was kind of hard to watch.  I'm actually okay with the this season.  There are silly things such as the main characters going from Winterfell to King's landing so fast.  They mention that the army was crossing the Trident and was two days from from King's landing, which might be true if they came by bus.  The things about big crossbows are silly but not seem nitpicking.  It's a show where people walk into the battlefield carrying only a long sword.  No armor, no helmet, no shield.  So gave up on historical accuracy in film a long time ago.

The biggest problem I have is how everyone looks to Jon as a leader despite him being remarkably dim.  Sansa started the show (and the books) as frivolous little girl and one of the characters I found the most boring.  She grew into a new role as administration and political leader.  Now she's one of my favorites.  Put her on the Iron Throne and have her marry Tyrion (again).  Let them rule the kingdoms jointly.

Shame about Varys, I liked him.  I knew he was going to die and he went to his death bravely.

This isn't the first time Dany went psycho, but her advisers were able to retrain her before.  This time she became a force of nature.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 13, 2019, 12:32:26 AM
(https://i.redd.it/b3h8sbkdxvx21.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 13, 2019, 01:02:12 AM
I'm more upset that the two big bads had crappy deaths. At this rate Dany is gonna die when she trips getting off her dragon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:36:27 AM
The leaks are true, which kinda sucks. Still, 10/10 for execution. Anyone who by this point observed that dragons are evil monsters, Dothraki are violent barbarians, and Khaleesi is a war criminal is not surprised by this development.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 01:47:28 AM
Dany did some questionable things in the past, but nothing in her past would suggest she would burn an entire city of innocent people just for kicks. The show itself gives no reason for it other than (through Varys) the genetic roll of the dice, incredibly lazy writing. So her entire story line through the whole epic is meaningless - it doesn't matter what choices she made or what values she embraced because she was always just a ticking time bomb ready to go off.  It also makes so sense  - even Aerys didn't go mad all it once, it happened gradually over a couple decades.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 13, 2019, 03:52:13 AM
Another problem is 2 weeks ago, the evilest dude in Westeros was the Night King. Last week it was Cersei. This week it's Dany. It doesn't make for good storytelling.

Also I want to remind everybody that Stannis only burned one child alive. #teamStannis
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 13, 2019, 04:35:28 AM
That horse is clearly a Targaryen, since it appears to be immune to fire. Horseon Targaryen for the Iron Throne!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 05:06:11 AM
Theory: It's somehow the same horse that Drogo gave to Dany as a wedding present. Or did she have to eat it in season 2?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 13, 2019, 05:19:22 AM
It's clear now that Stannis was the one true King, and anybody who said otherwise was made to look incredibly foolish now.

Also, that was a pale horse at the end lmao this show's writing, I love it
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 05:41:42 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 12, 2019, 10:05:04 PM
Best episodes this season.

Really? I thought it was truly awful. I had to force myself to finish it, and then I could only do it by jumping ahead every scene or two. At least in the battle at Winterfell we didn't know who would survive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 13, 2019, 05:47:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2019, 11:33:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 12, 2019, 11:18:51 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 12, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
What an utter shit show.  This is embarrassingly bad at this point. :(

It's utter schlock now. Just turn your brain off and appreciate it for what it is.
that episode was great. Not perfect, but great.

I think the people who liked it are the same ones who liked the Avengers movie - better able to ignore bad writing and just enjoy the spectacle.
Hey! now wait a minute buddy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 13, 2019, 05:54:19 AM
So, I bet all those people who named their child after Daenerys are really happy now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2019, 05:54:25 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 30, 2019, 07:17:07 PM


I am enjoying the ride, but the last few seasons have been a lot more "Guardians of the Galaxy" type enjoyment than anything particularly thoughtful.
That's an insult to the Guardians of the Galaxy
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 06:19:13 AM
Yeah, at least those movies don't take themselves too seriously.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 13, 2019, 06:20:32 AM
I hope they keep going Full Fan Fic. It should end like this:


5 YEARS LATER
INT. THRONE ROOM, DRAGONSTONE

Dany sits on her newly crafted Iron Throne. In Westeros, her Unsullied hunt down the last remaining anti-Dragon Queen forces with Gestapo efficiency. The land is burnt, the sky blackened by the smoke from 10,000 fires burning into infinity. Westeros is blanketed by the Ashes of the Night.

JON stands before Dany.

DANY
And how do you respond to these charges of treason?

JON
I only ever loved you, my grace. What happened to you, to us?

Dany stands.

DANY
I rule as the Dragon Queen of Westeros! Love is not necessary. Only fear.

JON
But fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to (his ears droop) suffering. And our people are suffering!

DANY
And subjects who suffer kneel and obey.

JON
Yes, my Queen. I shall obey.

Jon kneels but in the blackness behind him a wind stirs the throne room. Suddenly, ARYA leaps from the darkness and over the kneeling Jon. She flies twenty, thirty, fifty feet in the air and, at the top of her lunge, time slows and the camera stops to rotate around her, Matrix-style. The dagger in her hand sparkles and illuminates the room.

Arya looks slightly at the camera.

ARYA
Obey this, Dragon bitch.

Arya's dagger buries deep within Danny's heart and she immediately bursts into fire and dissolves into ash. Outside, Drogon does the same. Her Unsullied spontaneously grow their balls back and abandon their posts, off to find new women to follow. Westeros is free.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2019, 06:53:08 AM
I thought that the episode was pretty good, though obviously suffering from lazy Writer Syndrome, what with Dani suddenly going insane at the moment when the action would otherwise have stopped.  There were some good and well-written character moments, mixed with some truly bizarre ones (what are the odds Euron would made it to exactly the same secret cove at exactly the same time as Jamie?). 

The burning of the city took way too long and the power of the dragon's fire blast reached the point where I was laughing out loud at the absurdity of the whole city exploding at its touch.  One miraculous escape for Arya would have been enough; six were overkill.

Probably the worst thing about the episode, though, was that it confirmed that a poster on another site was not "predicting" when he gave his detailed description of what he thought would happen.  The fucker knew and everything he "predicted," no matter how absurd, has happened these last two episodes.  So I know how it ends, and it doesn't end very satisfactorily (to me, at least).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 13, 2019, 08:00:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2019, 11:33:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 12, 2019, 11:18:51 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 12, 2019, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 12, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
What an utter shit show.  This is embarrassingly bad at this point. :(

It's utter schlock now. Just turn your brain off and appreciate it for what it is.
that episode was great. Not perfect, but great.

I think the people who liked it are the same ones who liked the Avengers movie - better able to ignore bad writing and just enjoy the spectacle.


Well in my case that's certainly not true. (I'd mention that I haven't seen any of those 22 movies, but last time I said that I got shat upon).

I think the people who didn't like it, are expecting GoT to be War and Peace or other such fine art. It always was actions-driven shlock, and the first few seasons even threw in some tits for fun.

GoT, the TV show, is just mind-numbing spectacle. Take it for what it is. Most people like it.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Malthus on May 13, 2019, 09:05:31 AM
I haven't actually been following GoT, but I thought you might enjoy an anecdote from another fandom: the Disney cartoon *Star vs. the Forces of Evil* is wrapping up its final season (as you all know, I do fan art for this), and in the antepenultimate episode they sprang a twist that had clearly been prepared and foreshadowed for a season and a half - one that was totally shocking and surprising but made perfect sense in hindsight.

Someone posted a pic on the Reddit fan site that showed a screenshot of the twist happening, with the caption "That moment when a Disney children's cartoon has better political twists than Game of Thrones." 

Obviously, the creation of a somewhat disgruntled fan of both shows.  :lol:

Though to be fair, it was a very well done shocking twist. A lot of fans going 'oh my fucking god I can't believe they did that' to their TV screens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.

In each instance a response to a threat and/or betrayal, vistied upon the threat. She executes slaver masters and merchants becuse she is freeing slaves, she doesn't burn the slaves to save them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on May 13, 2019, 09:15:26 AM
Long but interesting Twitter comment: https://twitter.com/DSilvermint/status/1125856091261136896

QuoteWant to know why Game of Thrones *feels* so different now? I think I can explain. Without spoilers.

It has to do with the behind-the-scenes process of plotters vs. pantsers. If you're not familiar with the distinction, plotters create a fairly detailed outline before they commit a single word to the page.

Pantsers discover the story as they write it, often treating the first draft like one big elaborate outline. Neither approach is 'right' - it's just a way to characterize the writing process. But the two approaches do tend to have different advantages

Because they have the whole story in mind, it's usually easier for plotters to deliver tighter stories and stick the landing when it comes to endings, but their characters can sometimes feel stiff, like they're just plot devices.

Pantsers have an easier time writing realistic characters, because they generate the plot by asking themselves what this fully-realized person would do or think next in the dramatic situation the writer has dropped them in.

But because pantsers are making it up as they go along (hence the name: they're flying by the seat of their pants), they're prone to meandering plots and can struggle to bring everything together in a satisfying conclusion.

That's why a lot of writers plot their stories but pants their characters, and use the second draft to reconcile conflicts between the two.

What does this have to do with Game of Thrones?

Well, GRRM is one of the most epic pantsers around. He talks about writing like cultivating a garden. He plants character seeds and carefully lets them grow and grow.

That's why every plot point and fair-in-hindsight surprise landed with such devastating weight: everything that happened to these characters happened because of their past choices. But it's also the reason why the narrative momentum of the books slowed over time.

After the first big plot arc, book four was originally going to skip ahead five years. But GRRM didn't know how to make the gap in action feel true to the characters or the world, so he eventually decided to just write his way through those five years instead.

Which meant planting more seeds, and watching those grow. And suddenly his garden was overgrown, and hard to prune without abrupt or forced resolutions. He had no choice but to follow each and every one of those plot threads, even when they didn't really matter to the story.

And now that the plants were fully in control, he struggled to get some of the characters that had grown one way to go where they needed to be for the story. (Dany getting stuck in Meereen is the example he frequently cites.) 

And because he had all this story to cover and pay off, some of which was growing in the wrong directions and needed enough narrative space to come back around, he started increasing the number of books he thought it would take him to complete the series. And, well.

So the books the showrunners were adapting ran out. What now? People assume the show suffered because they didn't have GRRM's rich material to draw on anymore, as if the problem was that he's simply better at generating new plots than they are. But that's not what happened.

For a season or two, the showrunners actually tried to take over management of GRRM's sprawling garden, with understandably mixed results. When that didn't work, they shifted their focus to trying to bring this huge beast in for a landing.

They gave themselves a fixed endpoint - 13 episodes to the finale, and no more - and set about reverse-engineering the rest of the story they wanted to tell.

You see, I think the showrunners are not only plotters, they're ending-focused plotters by design.

They want to deliver an ultimately satisfying experience. So with only two seasons to work with, they started asking themselves what was left to do. What could they build with the pieces left in the box? What beats did they just have to include? 

What big moments did they want to deliver? Where should the characters end up? What did they think we, the audience, wanted to see on screen before the show came to an end? It was a Game of Thrones bucket list.

And once they had that list, it was time to connect the dots to make it all happen. So they started maneuvering the characters into the emotional and literal places they needed to be for all those dots to connect up in the right way.

That's why Game of Thrones feels different now. A show that had been about the weight of the past became about the spectacle of the present. Characters with incredible depth and agency - all the more rope with which to hang themselves - became pieces on a giant war map.

Where once the characters authored their own, terrible destinies, now they were forced to take uncharacteristic actions and make uncharacteristically bad decisions so the necessary plot points could happen and the appropriate stakes could be felt.

Organic developments gave way to contrivance. Naturally-paced character arcs were rushed. Living plants became puppets of the plot. The characters just weren't in charge anymore. The ending was.

No one's to blame. Keeping a million plates spinning the way GRRM did is hard. And setting those plates down without breaking too many, which the showrunners had to do, is also really hard. Creation in general is hard.

There's a reason writers have haunted eyes and always seem like they need a hug. Give everyone a break. But: the shift in approach did have consequences.

Is pantsing better than plotting? No. And this has nothing to do with which approach is 'right', anyway. It's about the approach changing in the third act. That's the sort of thing an audience can feel happening, even if they can't put their finger on exactly why.

The audience fell in love with one kind of show, but the ending is being imported from a different kind of show. Now, I happen to think the finale will stick the landing. It's what the showrunners have been building toward these past two seasons, after all

But to be satisfying, it matters how we get there, too. Treating the journey as equally important is how you get endings that feel earned. And it's how characters keep feeling real the whole way through, even though they're completing arcs some writer has chosen for them.

By placing so much emphasis on the ending, the showrunners changed the nature of the story they were telling, meaning the original story and the original characters aren't the ones getting an ending. Their substitutes are. 

That's why no amount of spectacle or fan service can make this ending as satisfying as it should be. Resolutions invite us to consider the story as a whole; where it all started, where it all ended up. And we can feel the discontinuity in this one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
It's not merely a problem of bringing all the different threads to a conclusion, though.

You could arrive at the same place without involving supersonic bolts and widespread stupidity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
It's not merely a problem of bringing all the different threads to a conclusion, though.

You could arrive at the same place without involving supersonic bolts and widespread stupidity.

Yeah, if Dani is going to go crazy in the end, then show us why or at least a little more than Jon won't have sex with her and her favourite personal assistant was killed.  She has already endured a lot more than that.  Maybe don't spend valuable minutes on a stupid fight between Euron and Jamie that was meaningless and show the audience why, in the critical moment, Dani snapped.

They completely ruined an amazing story arc of a vulnerable girl who transformed into a wise, powerful well intentioned by further transforming her in a matter of days in the story line to something worse than the mad king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 10:22:25 AM
Worse than the Mad King? Not sure I'd agree with that, though I agree with all the other stuff. The Mad King was worse because he murdered innocents on a far more frequent basis, but he had every intention of doing the same thing to King's Landing if not for Jaime's intervention.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
It's not merely a problem of bringing all the different threads to a conclusion, though.

You could arrive at the same place without involving supersonic bolts and widespread stupidity.

But how do you counter the dragons without supersonic bolts?

I'd have liked this ending a lot better if the Long Night battle had wiped out Dani's army and all she had left were the dragons.  They wouldn't be enough by themselves to take down Cersei, but Dani could have used them as weapons of terror (wiping out some castles or towns in the Stormalnds, for instance) to convince Cersei's supporters not that Cersei was doomed to lose, but that they wouldn't survive no matter who won, unless they yielded to Dani at least for the moment.  You'd have the same outcome but it wouldn't be a deus ex machina "Dani suddenly turns into The Mad Queen" rationale; she'd simply be more ruthless than Jon or Davos would think allowable.  That would set up a more "gray" showdown than the show will use.

You could also have skipped the supersonic bolts in this scenario, because Rheagon could be loyal to Jon and Drogon to Dani, and when Jon and Dani clash the dragons could fight and kill each other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 13, 2019, 10:26:44 AM
here's a decent review written by someone who's a fan of the books

https://tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-brutally-asserts-that-the-game-in-quest-1834707954 (https://tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-brutally-asserts-that-the-game-in-quest-1834707954)


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 10:22:25 AM
Worse than the Mad King? Not sure I'd agree with that, though I agree with all the other stuff. The Mad King was worse because he murdered innocents on a far more frequent basis, but he had every intention of doing the same thing to King's Landing if not for Jaime's intervention.


The mad king tried but did not succeed, Dani actually did burn the city and not through the impersonal act of issuing a single order.  She did it herself.  She could see the people she was killing in cold blood. And she kept doing it, run after run.  Much worse than the mad king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 10:33:27 AM
The Mad King was also delusional. He thought burning the city down would do some magical thing like bring the dragons back to life or something. So if you are going to make that kind of parallel you need to show Dany being delusional and losing her grip on reality.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 10:41:22 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.
In each instance a response to a threat and/or betrayal, vistied upon the threat. She executes slaver masters and merchants becuse she is freeing slaves, she doesn't burn the slaves to save them.

She destroyed King's Landing in response to a threat, too. She saw her rule being undermined before it even began so she decided to make a point to the lords of Westeros: 'I have a big dragon and I'm more than willing to use it frequently and to excess.' Now anyone who considers defying Queen Daenerys will remember what happened in King's Landing. She's mad in the 'volatile and tyrannical' sense rather than the certifiable sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 13, 2019, 10:50:25 AM
That would have been achieved by burning the red keep. You could say it's already been achieved by burning the Tarlys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 13, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.

In each instance a response to a threat and/or betrayal, vistied upon the threat. She executes slaver masters and merchants becuse she is freeing slaves, she doesn't burn the slaves to save them.


The city didn't rise up so they were enemies. If she can't be loved in westeros then she will be feared. She basically told you this at the beginning of the episode
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 10:56:45 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 13, 2019, 10:50:25 AM
That would have been achieved by burning the red keep. You could say it's already been achieved by burning the Tarlys.

And Cersei refused her offer of surrender regardless. She went around all of Essos saying that she was going to be a great conqueror who burnt cities to the ground. And now she's conquered a city that refused to open its gates before the ram touched the wall, so she decided to send a message that would be remembered for centuries.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 10:59:41 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 10:33:27 AM
The Mad King was also delusional. He thought burning the city down would do some magical thing like bring the dragons back to life or something. So if you are going to make that kind of parallel you need to show Dany being delusional and losing her grip on reality.

Not sure if you were addressing Habs or me.  My point is she did it purposefully and repeatedly.  Not because she thought it would prevent the fall of the city (like the mad king).  Her acts are much worse.

@ Josephus, good article.  But I think the author lets the writers off too easily.

QuoteBut two weeks after the Night King was revealed to be something of an empty antagonist, and a week after Cersei was reframed as the ultimate evil, to have the focus shift again to Daenerys feels like whiplash, not poetry. There's a thematic through-line about the toxic power of vengeance, but it feels sort of thrown together, because how can ending a show this sprawling not feel that way?

Agreed, not well written, but certainly not inevitable that it feels thrown together.  That is the produce of poor writing choices and editing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 11:01:36 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 13, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.

In each instance a response to a threat and/or betrayal, vistied upon the threat. She executes slaver masters and merchants becuse she is freeing slaves, she doesn't burn the slaves to save them.


The city didn't rise up so they were enemies. If she can't be loved in westeros then she will be feared. She basically told you this at the beginning of the episode

all the damage she did with her dragon before the bells rang made that point.  She could have just gone for the Keep.  She looked at it, considered it, and went crazy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 11:04:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 10:59:41 AM
Not sure if you were addressing Habs or me.  My point is she did it purposefully and repeatedly.  Not because she thought it would prevent the fall of the city (like the mad king).  Her acts are much worse.

Just generally discussing making Dany as some kind of mirror image of her father as a plot point. If the idea is to show how she became her father she would have to experience that kind of madness. I was just giving my 2 cents in the conversation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
So what happened to all the 88mm Flak Scorpions?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 11:09:48 AM
They got nerfed in the latest patch. To be honest, they were kind of OP.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 11:09:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
So what happened to all the 88mm Flak Scorpions?

They forgot that Drogon is Mereen's reigning dodgeball champion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 11:17:13 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 11:09:48 AM
They got nerfed in the latest patch. To be honest, they were kind of OP.

More balancing needs to be done.  The scorpions got nerfed and the dragon was set to god mode. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 13, 2019, 11:26:02 AM
also, thinking about it, it would have been better if her second dragon died this episode while attacking as another reason for mad Queen (gets rid of the stupid invisible fleet thing too)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 13, 2019, 10:50:25 AM
That would have been achieved by burning the red keep.

Which is what it looked like she was going to do and would have made sense.  But instead of flying her dragon directly at her exposed rival and exacting revenge, she leisurely meanders back and forth burning up the streets of King's Landing, leaving Cersei as a concerned but bemused spectator for a while.  Melting the Red Keep to the ground what have been more than sufficient to prompt fear in anyone else that would oppose her.   Totally daft.  It's the really tall reddish building, kind of hard to miss.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 12:50:06 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 13, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
The city didn't rise up so they were enemies. If she can't be loved in westeros then she will be feared. She basically told you this at the beginning of the episode

Sure it is internally consistent within the episode itself, if you ignore everything that came before.  That is CC's point, which I agree with - a spat with the boyfriend and losing her BFF is not really sufficient explanation. 

Also one creates fear by establishing an expected consequence to the behavior one wishes to suppress.  Demolishing the entire capital in a fit of madness creates desparation and fatalism not fear in that sense.  For fear to work, the target still has to think they have something to lose.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maladict on May 13, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
I'm just going to read this thread instead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 13, 2019, 01:48:02 PM
Sansa and Tyrion are the only characters who have demonstrated they know how to rule.  The Targaryean line needs to end.  Maybe the Seven Kingdoms will revert to being seven independent states.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 13, 2019, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

Nah... I'm thinking Jon kills her. Daenerys kills Tyrion.
Sansa leads a rebellion. The north secedes from the Seven Kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 13, 2019, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 11:09:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
So what happened to all the 88mm Flak Scorpions?

They forgot that Drogon is Mereen's reigning dodgeballbolt champion.

FTFY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 02:03:29 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 13, 2019, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

Nah... I'm thinking Jon kills her. Daenerys kills Tyrion.
Sansa leads a rebellion. The north secedes from the Seven Kingdoms.

Sansa rebels against Jon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 02:03:42 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
There's been a kind of leak of what happens in episodes 4-6. It's not certain if it's all true, but much of it did happen in episode 4. Warning, do not click this unless you are fine with potentially massive spoilers including the final resolution: SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER (https://i.imgur.com/xfaXYL2.jpg)


Well...it really looks like this spoiler is absolutely correct.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 13, 2019, 02:17:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 02:03:42 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 06, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
There's been a kind of leak of what happens in episodes 4-6. It's not certain if it's all true, but much of it did happen in episode 4. Warning, do not click this unless you are fine with potentially massive spoilers including the final resolution: SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER (https://i.imgur.com/xfaXYL2.jpg)


Well...it really looks like this spoiler is absolutely correct.

It does, doesn't it.

[spoiler]It feels like "you know, we spent all this time with Bran, I guess we have to do something with him in the end" in order to justify the investment.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2019, 02:30:50 PM
Heh, since the start they continued the stupid stuff with the Golden Company lining up outside the city, making me fed up with the whole thing, I actually liked the rest.

If we accept that Dany had affinity for going berserk, this was as good a time as any.

And I really liked the civilian viewpoint of the ordeal. Usually even in war movies let alone fantasy ones such battles are these glorious thrillrides. It was a nice idea to show how it would look like for 99% of the people ending up in the middle of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2019, 02:39:34 PM
Also it is good they moved away from the clear evil-good pairing, which is more in the spirit of the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2019, 02:40:30 PM
Oh and sticking with just the TV and Dany not making sense:

https://9gag.com/gag/an98rpV?ref=android
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 02:54:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

[spoiler]Which other Targaryen are you referring to? Aegon clearly isn't one (most likely a Blackfyre), and unless you're referring to the silly Tyrion theory...[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 02:54:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

[spoiler]Which other Targaryen are you referring to? Aegon clearly isn't one (most likely a Blackfyre), and unless you're referring to the silly Tyrion theory...[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Clearly?  He might be a Blackfyre but he is claiming to be a Targaryen (he certainly looks like one) and all that really matters is whether he is believed or not.  He is after all on his way with his mercenaries[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 02:54:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

[spoiler]Which other Targaryen are you referring to? Aegon clearly isn't one (most likely a Blackfyre), and unless you're referring to the silly Tyrion theory...[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Clearly?  He might be a Blackfyre but he is claiming to be a Targaryen (he certainly looks like one) and all that really matters is whether he is believed or not.  He is after all on his way with his mercenaries[/spoiler]

Well, sure, if all we're counting is [spoiler]him claiming to be a Targaryen, then fine.[/spoiler] No disagreement there. [spoiler]But he isn't one, which is what I was contesting.[/spoiler]  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 03:28:49 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 02:54:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

[spoiler]Which other Targaryen are you referring to? Aegon clearly isn't one (most likely a Blackfyre), and unless you're referring to the silly Tyrion theory...[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Clearly?  He might be a Blackfyre but he is claiming to be a Targaryen (he certainly looks like one) and all that really matters is whether he is believed or not.  He is after all on his way with his mercenaries[/spoiler]

Well, sure, if all we're counting is [spoiler]him claiming to be a Targaryen, then fine.[/spoiler] No disagreement there. [spoiler]But he isn't one, which is what I was contesting.[/spoiler]  :P

[spoiler]Have you seen the DNA tests[/spoiler]  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2019, 03:32:09 PM
Well. Dany's heelturn was forseen.
But the execution. Pff
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 13, 2019, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2019, 03:32:09 PM
Well. Dany's heelturn was forseen.
But the execution. Pff

Yeah, gotta agree with that. It has been telegraphed since season 7, and like most things done in the past two seasons, executed rather poorly.

But it's a compelling story if done well, hopefully the books can succeed there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 13, 2019, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 12, 2019, 11:30:06 PM
The scene between Tyrion and Jamie was excellent but did nobody notice he was gone?
Possibly.  But they have a battle to prepare, they don't really care for now.  Tyrion will burn next week.

Quote
And what were they doing with Euron? That scene made no sense.
No, it didn't.  Lovers' squabble, they needed to kill both characters.  It was done in a silly way though.

Quote
Also, glad to see the dragon is powerful again - the other one didn't have enough plot armour I guess. 
They ran out of heat seeking missiles :(

Seriously, if you notice something, it's that dragons are better at avoiding missiles when they have Daenerys on them to stear them away.

Quote
What was the point in killings it off in that silly way or at all?
To emphasize how mad can Daenerys become when she loses something/someone dear.  These dragons are her children, they killed one of them.  She's angry.  Hell hath no fury, etc, etc. ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 13, 2019, 03:35:33 PM
On the bright side, the ballista seemed to be by and large far more realistically shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 13, 2019, 03:37:14 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.
that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 13, 2019, 03:37:43 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2019, 03:35:33 PM
On the bright side, the ballista seemed to be by and large far more realistically shit.

Plot-driven variable aim always bugs me though, as prevalent as it is in movies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 13, 2019, 03:40:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 13, 2019, 06:53:08 AM
I thought that the episode was pretty good, though obviously suffering from lazy Writer Syndrome, what with Dani suddenly going insane at the moment when the action would otherwise have stopped.
That was the good part.
QuoteThere were some good and well-written character moments, mixed with some truly bizarre ones (what are the odds Euron would made it to exactly the same secret cove at exactly the same time as Jamie?). 
That was lazy writing.

Quote
The burning of the city took way too long and the power of the dragon's fire blast reached the point where I was laughing out loud at the absurdity of the whole city exploding at its touch.  One miraculous escape for Arya would have been enough; six were overkill.
Hmm, we seen green fire at some point, so I figured the fire triggered some of the wildfire explosives that were hidden in the city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 13, 2019, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 13, 2019, 03:37:14 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.
that.


I disagree it is wanton in the context of the world. It was all calculated and rational uses of force.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 03:47:34 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 13, 2019, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2019, 03:32:09 PM
Well. Dany's heelturn was forseen.
But the execution. Pff

Yeah, gotta agree with that. It has been telegraphed since season 7, and like most things done in the past two seasons, executed rather poorly.

But it's a compelling story if done well, hopefully the books can succeed there.

It's been telegraphed since season 1, at the very least. The foreshadowing has always been there (Fire and Blood, after all), but the execution is lacking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 13, 2019, 03:50:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on May 13, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
It's not merely a problem of bringing all the different threads to a conclusion, though.

You could arrive at the same place without involving supersonic bolts and widespread stupidity.

Yeah, if Dani is going to go crazy in the end, then show us why
they kinda did, over all the years.

That she/we felt justified because she was targetting slavers and mysogenists does not change the facts: she likes to play with fire when she's just upset.  Kinda like Carrie :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 13, 2019, 04:44:04 PM
The best part of the episode was Dany coming out of the sun and dive bombing the fleet like a Stuka at Dunkirk. Hell yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 13, 2019, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 13, 2019, 03:47:34 PM


It's been telegraphed since season 1, at the very least. The foreshadowing has always been there (Fire and Blood, after all), but the execution is lacking.

Yeah, it's always been a possibility.  Such as when Tyrion talked her out of destroying Mereen.  I don't have much problem with the execution, but I think the show would have done better with full seasons rather than the last two truncated ones.

Something I thought was interesting was the show has Cersei as a main villain due the abuses she suffered.  Two of the female leads go through similar abuses slowly become Cersei.  It's a show about how people become villains.  Sansa isn't a villain but certainly has the icy plotter thing going.

Most of the characters evolved in some way.  Except Jon.  Jon is still as dumb as he was in the first episode where went to join the Night's Watch.  I dislike Jon becoming King.  His main strengths appear to be making poor choices and losing battles.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 13, 2019, 05:44:22 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/05/13/how-talk-your-daughter-khaleesi-about-that-game-thrones-episode/?utm_term=.5cccc35f3c7c

:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 13, 2019, 07:48:01 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 12:50:06 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 13, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
The city didn't rise up so they were enemies. If she can't be loved in westeros then she will be feared. She basically told you this at the beginning of the episode

Sure it is internally consistent within the episode itself, if you ignore everything that came before.  That is CC's point, which I agree with - a spat with the boyfriend and losing her BFF is not really sufficient explanation. 

Also one creates fear by establishing an expected consequence to the behavior one wishes to suppress.  Demolishing the entire capital in a fit of madness creates desparation and fatalism not fear in that sense.  For fear to work, the target still has to think they have something to lose.

She's not gone mad, she's just being the person she's always been: A zealot. If you're not with her, you're against her. She decides what is Right, and if you don't agree, you're Wrong, and you deserve whatever punishment she decides. She's a neoconservative's dream. This has been patently obvious for years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 13, 2019, 07:48:01 PM
She's not gone mad, she's just being the person she's always been: A zealot. If you're not with her, you're against her.

She forgives Jorah his terrible betrayal.  She pushes back against Tyrion again and again, but still keeps him and often allows herself to be persuaded.  She sacrifices her overwhelming military advantage and risks her lifelong dream for a dangerous fight in a northern wasteland that has no connection to her, and then doubles down after the catastrophe of losing a dragon.  Contra the revisionist history presented here, she actually made concessions to the Essos slavers and gave them multiple opportunities only to be attacked and betrayed at every turn.  She condemned her dragon-children to prison over a shepard's daughter.

Over the past two season, she had multiple opportunities to win the war with an immediate strike on King's Landing but refrained over and again.  If she was *always* a zealot, why not attack immediately on arriving?  Oleanna urges her to do exactly that, she follows Tyrion's advice instead.  It is Oleanna who tells her to be a "dragon," Varys who threatens "fire and blood". Instead she acts with restraint and does some GHW Bush style coalition building.

To paint her as a zealot requires ignoring much of the actual history and conduct of her character.  The thrust of the books and and TV series both is to portray her as a complete person - fiery but compassionate, determined to assert her perceived rights and harsh is responding to slights but also fair-minded and just, quick to anger but also willing to reflect and reconsider.  Virtually every person she comes to know who also knew her father comments on the clear distinction in their character and bearing.  The show writers basically shitcanned all that to force a quick plot resolution while tossing in a couple of references in a forced effort to retcon her character history into a simple hereditary fairytale of scary Targaryen genes gone awry.  Lazy, lazy, lazy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 13, 2019, 09:27:37 PM
Had a flashback to last season while she was burning the city: "Isn't their survival more important than your pride?"

LOL guess not! Bitches be crazy yo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
The hallmark of the series is that there are no true saints and only a few true sinners. The "good guys" include a patricide (Tyrion), a secretive bureaucrat responsible for countless deaths (Varys), an oathbreaker and killer of his own brethren (Jon Snow).  The earliest chapters/episodes firmly establish Jamie Lannister and Sandor Clegane as evil bastards that throw kids off walls or butcher them only to subvert those understandings later.  What makes Danaerys work as a compelling character is that she fits the series mold of flawed protagonist.  Turning her into a straight up nut that finally snapped blows it all up.  It can't be justified.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 12:35:29 AM
IDK what you guys wanted. Yes the writing is kind of lame but how is that in any way surprising at this stage?

And for at least this season but IIRC in the previous one as well, we had scenes upon scenes where on of her advisors or more went "Puhleaze don't burn King's Landing" which was met by Dany's angry gaze.

She was held back from similar butcheries by her advisers, whom have all failed her from her point of view. So she snapped. I think it is entirely unrealistic to expect a rationally timed berserk snapping.

And in terms on no gradual buildup of her inner torments to the boiling point: well, hello, this is Emilia Clarke in a series that's been rushing to a hastened conclusion at breakneck speed for two seasons now. Maybe you should have watched the series instead of joining in at this stage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 01:04:37 AM
Two episodes ago she allowed her force to be decimated and her life to be put at risk to save those she's now wantonly burning alive. So yeah, the snapping makes no sense. I agree this needed at least one more season or a longer one. Too much rush.

I understand people not wanting to spend all their life doing this (it's been 8 years...) but at least they should have gone for regular 10-episode seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo6gqw/spoilers_i_am_amazed_how_well_that_fits/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Just watch it  :lol:

It's better to laugh than cry I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 01:59:16 AM
Also, Cersei deserved better than dying caught in debris, imho. Rather anticlimatic. But instead we had enough "Arya nearly dies" scenes to last us a lifetime.

And what was the entire point of Euron Greyjoy as a character? GAH.

I think I better stop thinking about the episode/season. Get done with the sixth and move on to better things.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 14, 2019, 02:05:43 AM
I had thought they'd kill Arya in the stampede. Would be a realistic though painfully cheap end.

Euron and Qyburn felt just there to give cersei someone to talk to after their relevant parts of the series were done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 14, 2019, 02:06:44 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo6gqw/spoilers_i_am_amazed_how_well_that_fits/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Just watch it  :lol:

It's better to laugh than cry I guess.

This underlines the extent to which GRRM's worldview was shaped by the Vietnam War, IMO.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 14, 2019, 02:55:32 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 13, 2019, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 13, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 13, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I guess after having watched all other episodes, I might as well watch the last episode, but this is a rather weak end to what used to be a great show.

Yeah, I think it is going to boil down to this.  Jon is the Prince that was promised.  Although at this point who cares.  The Night King was not the existential threat everyone thought he was.  Dani is crazy and so Tyrion is going to have to turn on her and Arya will likely kill her.  Jon will likely die as a result of indecision and ongoing incompetence bringing an end to the Targaryean line [spoiler]at least in the show[/spoiler] and Sansa will sit as Queen of the North  - the only interesting things left are will she bother also ruling the Seven Kingdoms and will she be reunited with Tyrion (the only truly likable character left).

Nah... I'm thinking Jon kills her. Daenerys kills Tyrion.
Sansa leads a rebellion. The north secedes from the Seven Kingdoms.

The leak that I posted some pages back has been entirely true so far, and this is not what will happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 03:52:01 AM
I haven't seen those spoilers, but I hope we don't end up with a "Jon kills Dany but refuses to take the throne, Tyrion and friends create a ruling council" type thing - which means that 10 years after the show (tops) there's another civil war so not really an ending at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 03:54:32 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 14, 2019, 02:05:43 AM
I had thought they'd kill Arya in the stampede. Would be a realistic though painfully cheap end.

Euron and Qyburn felt just there to give cersei someone to talk to after their relevant parts of the series were done.

What part did Euron play? I mean, I guess he had a hand in setting Theon up for redemption, but the whole Iron Islands arc has been completely thrown away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
What kills me is that the show has not been "rushed to a conclusion."  Episode 4, for instance, had about ten minutes of necessary plot-moving, and lots of wasted time and space.  I am wondering if GRRM didn't really have an ending, but quickly assembled this ending because he was contractually obligated to provide one.

The Dani heel turn was quite unnecessary.  They could have had the final conflict between her and Jon be based on her being much less of an existential threat and brought to a head by, say, her ordering the execution of Davos, or Tyrion, or Samwell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 05:01:03 AM
I think they envisioned the burning of King's Landing as a "red wedding" kinda shock moment for the show. It just felt massively forced and jump-sharky.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 14, 2019, 05:25:16 AM
It's apparent that everyone just stopped caring. D&D refused to do more than 6 episodes and the actors are all tired of this show.

I do wonder about the idea of doing a reboot of just the last couple of seasons in, say, 10 years.  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 05:35:09 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on May 14, 2019, 05:25:16 AM
It's apparent that everyone just stopped caring. D&D refused to do more than 6 episodes and the actors are all tired of this show.

I do wonder about the idea of doing a reboot of just the last couple of seasons in, say, 10 years.  :lol:

D&D have nice stuff lined up already, but most of the actors in this will be in crap after the show is over. Clarke had a Hollywood moment 2-3 years ago, but it died out quickly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: saskganesh on May 14, 2019, 06:08:00 AM
The internet is in shock and anger about dragon warcrimes committed by a feminist icon.

It will probably be great in the books. If they are ever get written.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 14, 2019, 06:08:00 AM
The internet is in shock and anger about dragon warcrimes committed by a feminist icon.

It will probably be great in the books. If they are ever get written.

Yeah, it's silly to bring feminism into it, like Zoupa is trying. The daughter of a rampaging psycho king leading an army of horse raiders plus 3 dragons, coming to take  back her throne and literally nobody asked her from Westeros to do so. Sure, the actual TV execution of the ensuing rampage was over the top, but in terms of the end result being her rampaging through people could not have been avoided.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 14, 2019, 07:37:21 AM
In case you guys haven't read enough newspaper pundits punditing profusely on the subject, here's one from the Globe and Mail
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/article-game-of-thrones-episode-5-review-a-viciously-stupid-cheap-and (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/article-game-of-thrones-episode-5-review-a-viciously-stupid-cheap-and)




Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 14, 2019, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
Turning her into a straight up nut that finally snapped blows it all up.  It can't be justified.
hmm, I see it in another light.

Everytime, she had people advising her restraint, she relanted, and used restraint.  Everytime she was alone, she burned people alive.  She forgave Jorah, a long time advisor, because he was a dying man.

Jorah is dead, Missandei is dead.  Half of her forces are depleted.  Tyrion told her once the battle was lost, people would rebel against Cersei.  They did not rebel, they did not cheer her up either.

She freed the unsullied and incited the slaves to kill their masters, no matter how cruel or compassionate they had been.

On more than one occasion she wanted to burn a city, but her advisors urged her restraint.

Now, she is alone, she is angry about many things, and she decides if she isn't loved immediatly, she will be feared.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 14, 2019, 06:08:00 AM
The internet is in shock and anger about dragon warcrimes committed by a feminist icon.

It will probably be great in the books. If they are ever get written.

Yeah, it's silly to bring feminism into it, like Zoupa is trying. The daughter of a rampaging psycho king leading an army of horse raiders plus 3 dragons, coming to take  back her throne and literally nobody asked her from Westeros to do so. Sure, the actual TV execution of the ensuing rampage was over the top, but in terms of the end result being her rampaging through people could not have been avoided.

It's not that I'm trying to bring feminism into it. It's that if the leaks are true, [spoiler]then boring goody two shoes saves the day from crazy lady that used to save people til 2 weeks ago but now decided to burn kids for shits and giggles. [/spoiler]

It's lame.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 14, 2019, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
Turning her into a straight up nut that finally snapped blows it all up.  It can't be justified.
hmm, I see it in another light.

Everytime, she had people advising her restraint, she relanted, and used restraint.  Everytime she was alone, she burned people alive.  She forgave Jorah, a long time advisor, because he was a dying man.

Jorah is dead, Missandei is dead.  Half of her forces are depleted.  Tyrion told her once the battle was lost, people would rebel against Cersei.  They did not rebel, they did not cheer her up either.

She freed the unsullied and incited the slaves to kill their masters, no matter how cruel or compassionate they had been.

On more than one occasion she wanted to burn a city, but her advisors urged her restraint.

Now, she is alone, she is angry about many things, and she decides if she isn't loved immediatly, she will be feared.

:yes:

Plus the very advisors who advised restraints have utterly failed/betrayed her, from her point of view.

Her snapping makes perfect sense. The details of the snapping were poorly done because, duh, its the same writers like the previous episodes, but the fact of her snapping and becoming the ruiner of Zoupa's modern feminist idol he was building in his own head, makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 10:57:13 AM
BTW those commenting that this is an "of course she goes mad she is a woman" moment need to look into themselves, because it has nothing to do with it, and if THEY had those thoughts, well, that's own them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 14, 2019, 10:58:42 AM
Quote from: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 01:04:37 AM
Two episodes ago she allowed her force to be decimated and her life to be put at risk to save those she's now wantonly burning alive.
at this point, she was still expected to be welcomed as a saviour.  And I don't think she allowed her force to be decimated.  Her force was decimated in a battle she thought she could win without too much difficulty.

I do not know why Bran was not used to scout ahead and see the extent of the ennemy's force...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 14, 2019, 10:59:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
and becoming the ruiner of Zoupa's modern feminist idol he was building in his own head, makes perfect sense.
she is a feminist.  She's burning a little more than her bra :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 14, 2019, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 01:59:16 AM
Also, Cersei deserved better than dying caught in debris, imho. Rather anticlimatic.
true.  Great episode, lots of weakpoints though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
Tamas' weird fixation aside, if you have to debate and do a 10 minutes video after each episode explaining shit instead of actually showing it during the episode, it makes for a shitty show. Sorry.

I'm the biggest fanboi, but seasons 7 and 8 are weak sauce. Show, don't tell, and let characters develop organically. Why do you think half of viewers are disappointed? Why are the critics relatively bad? Are we all dumb?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 11:11:54 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
Tamas' weird fixation aside, if you have to debate and do a 10 minutes video after each episode explaining shit instead of actually showing it during the episode, it makes for a shitty show. Sorry.

I'm the biggest fanboi, but seasons 7 and 8 are weak sauce. Show, don't tell, and let characters develop organically. Why do you think half of viewers are disappointed? Why are the critics relatively bad? Are we all dumb?

No argument that overall it's been a very weak two seasons. I wrote here last week that all my expectations were gone and I was being honest. Compared to zero expectations I liked the episode. If you showed it to me straight after, say, season 3, I would have no doubt hated it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 11:14:21 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 14, 2019, 06:08:00 AM
The internet is in shock and anger about dragon warcrimes committed by a feminist icon.

It will probably be great in the books. If they are ever get written.

Yeah, it's silly to bring feminism into it, like Zoupa is trying. The daughter of a rampaging psycho king leading an army of horse raiders plus 3 dragons, coming to take  back her throne and literally nobody asked her from Westeros to do so. Sure, the actual TV execution of the ensuing rampage was over the top, but in terms of the end result being her rampaging through people could not have been avoided.

It's not that I'm trying to bring feminism into it.[spoiler] It's that if the leaks are true, then boring goody two shoes saves the day from crazy lady that used to save people til 2 weeks ago but now decided to burn kids for shits and giggles. [/spoiler]

It's lame.

Please don't talk about the leaks.  Just about the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 11:19:06 AM
Sorry, I'm on mobile, don't know how to do the spoiler thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
I put them around your text in my quote.  You could just delete your post.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 11:52:52 AM
I fixed it. I'm dumb, the SP thingie was right there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 14, 2019, 11:56:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
The Dani heel turn was quite unnecessary.  They could have had the final conflict between her and Jon be based on her being much less of an existential threat and brought to a head by, say, her ordering the execution of Davos, or Tyrion, or Samwell.

They could have everything just the way they did up to the point the bells ring.  At which point Dany does a beeline for Cersei and takes down the red keep, only the flaming debris falling off the keep ignites some other fires that spread and trigger some wildfire caches etc. causing the whole city to go.  She feels guilt for destroying King's Landing but is publicly defensive and self-righteous about it, causing dissent within the ranks; the news of Snow's parentage leaks out further, the northern armies split, etc. It would have required few material changes from the episode, really just cutting out the scenes of Drogon doing fire lines through the back alleys of King's Landing and some of the more ridiculous Fireball spell effects.  A large medieval city going up in flames is sufficiently horrible visually without the need for more.

That allows them to steer toward the desired ending without the simplistic and reductionist Dany goes nuts line.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 14, 2019, 12:01:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 10:57:13 AM
BTW those commenting that this is an "of course she goes mad she is a woman" moment need to look into themselves, because it has nothing to do with it, and if THEY had those thoughts, well, that's own them.

No it's almost as bad if not worse, it's "of course she goes mad, her genes are messed up" moment. 
It makes the entire 8 TV seasons of her story irrelevant.  Her fate was decided before she appeared in the first scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 12:16:04 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 14, 2019, 11:56:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
The Dani heel turn was quite unnecessary.  They could have had the final conflict between her and Jon be based on her being much less of an existential threat and brought to a head by, say, her ordering the execution of Davos, or Tyrion, or Samwell.

They could have everything just the way they did up to the point the bells ring.  At which point Dany does a beeline for Cersei and takes down the red keep, only the flaming debris falling off the keep ignites some other fires that spread and trigger some wildfire caches etc. causing the whole city to go.  She feels guilt for destroying King's Landing but is publicly defensive and self-righteous about it, causing dissent within the ranks; the news of Snow's parentage leaks out further, the northern armies split, etc. It would have required few material changes from the episode, really just cutting out the scenes of Drogon doing fire lines through the back alleys of King's Landing and some of the more ridiculous Fireball spell effects.  A large medieval city going up in flames is sufficiently horrible visually without the need for more.

That allows them to steer toward the desired ending without the simplistic and reductionist Dany goes nuts line.


Yes, another variant which would have been consistent with what happened during the sack of Meereen is that after the wall is breached the army of the North streams through and takes vengeance for all the insults they have suffered by going on a orgy of violence, similar to what the fighting slaves did to Meereen.  Dany does not destroy the city with fire in this scenario but instead puts a stop to the violence and suffers the political fall caused by being perceived as protecting the South.  Word of Jon's true identity leaks out you have the makings of a dynastic confiict with between two viable candidates each worthy in their own way.

But it is too easy to follow the trope of a woman scorned who becomes emotional and is the cause of everyone's destruction.  God I hope this does not end with a man redeeming her.  It would destroy her arc completely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 12:16:04 PM
God I hope this does not end with a man redeeming her.  It would destroy her arc completely.

There is not a chance of that happening.

All the other bad guys are gone.  Cersei, Night King, Ramsay Bolton, Walder Frey, Littlefinger, Tywin, Joffrey... all dead.  Dany has gone full heel (to use wrestling lingo) and it is opposition to her that will drive the final bit of narrative.

A redemption arc can be powerful (think Jaime's story), but would take time to develop, which is something they definitely don't have.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 12:16:04 PM
God I hope this does not end with a man redeeming her.  It would destroy her arc completely.

There is not a chance of that happening.

All the other bad guys are gone.  Cersei, Night King, Ramsay Bolton, Walder Frey, Littlefinger, Tywin, Joffrey... all dead.  Dany has gone full heel (to use wrestling lingo) and it is opposition to her that will drive the final bit of narrative.

A redemption arc can be powerful (think Jaime's story), but would take time to develop, which is something they definitely don't have.

I can easily conceive of more sloppy writing in which she falls into Jon's arms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 14, 2019, 12:57:44 PM
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2019-05/14/12/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-05/sub-buzz-2067-1557851375-13.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 12:59:58 PM
Any chance Dany wins in the end?  After all "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 01:02:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 12:59:58 PM
Any chance Dany wins in the end?  After all "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention".

The not paying attention can be said for most of what the writers have written this season.  :P  At this point I would not be surprised at all to see such a lame ending which runs counter to all the character development over the shows history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 01:12:37 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
Tamas' weird fixation aside, if you have to debate and do a 10 minutes video after each episode explaining shit instead of actually showing it during the episode, it makes for a shitty show. Sorry.

If you really think that GoT is the first show to have the showrunners commenting on it, you've missed pretty much every DVD and half the shows released in the last 10 years.  This is a different age than the one that seems to have set your TV expectations.

QuoteI'm the biggest fanboi, but seasons 7 and 8 are weak sauce. Show, don't tell, and let characters develop organically. Why do you think half of viewers are disappointed? Why are the critics relatively bad? Are we all dumb?

My problem isn't that the showrunners cannot "let characters develop organically" (because I know that they cannot - the showrunners need to finish the show and the characters do not).  The problem is this "hurry up and wait" pacing.  Did the showrunners really need to waste 70 minutes of last week's 80-minute show so that they could have Dani go from the queen we loved to the monster we loathe in twenty seconds or so?  It's not bad TV because of the sudden plot developments so much as it is bad TV because of the unexplained sudden plot developments.

Remember, Dani's actions here are not rational choices that show that she just disagrees with her advisers; they are insane actions against the very people she started out wanting to serve.  She is causing hundreds of millions in damages while killing the people that could afford to pay the taxes needed to repair the damage.  It is a stupid plot device intended to create a tension between the players that did not have to be half so crudely set up, given that the last episode was just marking time until they could show this one.  with two episodes devoted to the falling out, things could have been done with touch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 01:15:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 01:12:37 PM
Remember, Dani's actions here are not rational choices that show that she just disagrees with her advisers; they are insane actions against the very people she started out wanting to serve.  She is causing hundreds of millions in damages while killing the people that could afford to pay the taxes needed to repair the damage.  It is a stupid plot device intended to create a tension between the players that did not have to be half so crudely set up, given that the last episode was just marking time until they could show this one.  with two episodes devoted to the falling out, things could have been done with touch.

Dany's actions are evil to be sure, but they're not irrational.  Fear is a powerful weapon, and there are six other kingdoms to bring under her control.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Syt on May 14, 2019, 01:25:55 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 01:12:37 PMIf you really think that GoT is the first show to have the showrunners commenting on it, you've missed pretty much every DVD and half the shows released in the last 10 years.  This is a different age than the one that seems to have set your TV expectations.

I suppose JMS was one of the forerunners, discussing B5 with fans on the net during the original run.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 01:15:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 01:12:37 PM
Remember, Dani's actions here are not rational choices that show that she just disagrees with her advisers; they are insane actions against the very people she started out wanting to serve.  She is causing hundreds of millions in damages while killing the people that could afford to pay the taxes needed to repair the damage.  It is a stupid plot device intended to create a tension between the players that did not have to be half so crudely set up, given that the last episode was just marking time until they could show this one.  with two episodes devoted to the falling out, things could have been done with touch.

Dany's actions are evil to be sure, but they're not irrational.  Fear is a powerful weapon, and there are six other kingdoms to bring under her control.

Already answered by either JR or Grumbler, or both above.  I won't repeat what they already said.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 14, 2019, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 14, 2019, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
Turning her into a straight up nut that finally snapped blows it all up.  It can't be justified.
hmm, I see it in another light.

Everytime, she had people advising her restraint, she relanted, and used restraint.  Everytime she was alone, she burned people alive.  She forgave Jorah, a long time advisor, because he was a dying man.

Jorah is dead, Missandei is dead.  Half of her forces are depleted.  Tyrion told her once the battle was lost, people would rebel against Cersei.  They did not rebel, they did not cheer her up either.

She freed the unsullied and incited the slaves to kill their masters, no matter how cruel or compassionate they had been.

On more than one occasion she wanted to burn a city, but her advisors urged her restraint.

Now, she is alone, she is angry about many things, and she decides if she isn't loved immediatly, she will be feared.

:yes:

Plus the very advisors who advised restraints have utterly failed/betrayed her, from her point of view.

Her snapping makes perfect sense. The details of the snapping were poorly done because, duh, its the same writers like the previous episodes, but the fact of her snapping and becoming the ruiner of Zoupa's modern feminist idol he was building in his own head, makes perfect sense.

Right.

Her going to the darkside should not be a surprise. She always had a mean streak.
The problem was the writers tried to rush it up and find that pivotal moment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 14, 2019, 03:31:39 PM
Her snapping should have been a surprise to anyone that was following the show.  As JR has already taken pains to explain, everything she did in the past had a reason.  Here she just snapped and her destruction of the city was utter madness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 04:19:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 14, 2019, 01:15:42 PM
Dany's actions are evil to be sure, but they're not irrational.  Fear is a powerful weapon, and there are six other kingdoms to bring under her control.

Muredering a bunch of common people on the streets of King's Landing only terrifies the common people elsewhere, and those people don't vote.  If she was annihilating nobles in the Red Keep, her actions would be "rational" by your standards.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 04:21:31 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 14, 2019, 03:15:56 PM
Right.

Her going to the darkside should not be a surprise. She always had a mean streak.
The problem was the writers tried to rush it up and find that pivotal moment.

Worse, the writers decided to "shock" us with her madness, but that just made the whole thing worse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 04:28:23 PM
Not the biggest problem this season, but I got a good laugh from the fact that nearly none of the recipients of the "don't tell anybody! ever! never! Promise it!" Jon/Aegon secret makes even a token attempt at actually keeping it a secret.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 14, 2019, 05:08:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 14, 2019, 10:57:13 AM
BTW those commenting that this is an "of course she goes mad she is a woman" moment need to look into themselves, because it has nothing to do with it, and if THEY had those thoughts, well, that's own them.
Bitches be crazy yo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 04:28:23 PM
Not the biggest problem this season, but I got a good laugh from the fact that nearly none of the recipients of the "don't tell anybody! ever! never! Promise it!" Jon/Aegon secret makes even a token attempt at actually keeping it a secret.

Sansa is the only one that instantly backstabs Jon, as far as I know.  Jon should have realized that she is just Littlefinger with boobs, and that trusting her word as folly, but Jon Is Dumb.  He's pretty much shown that he is not fit for the throne, either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: saskganesh on May 14, 2019, 06:13:58 PM
 :D

Ending is supposed to be bittersweet. The only big thing left to resolve is wtf will happen to Dani? Will she be assassinated, or  thwart all the leftovers, or ride off into the sun with her last dragon after delivering a satisfying soliloquy.

Or will it be ambiguous? The table is set for all three scenarios and  WE DON'T FIND OUT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 14, 2019, 06:47:31 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 13, 2019, 01:55:23 AM
Betraying the Slaver's Bay merchants and burning them alive, crucifying hundreds of Masters, feeding the heads of Mereenese great houses to her dragons, burning all of the khals alive, demanding that the heads of the Slaver's Bay armies pick one of their number to die and then killing the two who didn't volunteer, burning the Tarlys alive, etc. Her solutions are always violent and often wantonly so.

Ned Stark beheaded a kid in one of the first scenes. Cersei blows up the Sept. Little angel Tyrion used wildfire like crazy against Stannis but is appalled by the use of dragonfire against the Lannister army last season. Sansa fed Ramsay to his dogs, then smiled about it. Jon hanged a child without a trial. Badass Arya fed a father his sons and mass-murdered an entire family. Did she bother to find out if those guys were even present at the red wedding?

Their solutions are always violent and often wantonly so... right?

Lots of foreshadowing about them going mad... right?

No? Oh only for Dany. Because genes. Laaaaaaaaaaaame.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 14, 2019, 09:43:01 PM
You know what the odd thing is?  The fact that so many people are upset with a city burning.  Pre-modern warfare was pretty brutal.  Hell, modern warfare can be brutal.  There are people walking around today who have personally taken part in the burning of entire cities.  Dresden, Tokyo, Hamburg...  Most people weren't too bothered by that 70 years ago.  Pre-modern soldiers and statemen were probably even less bothered by it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 14, 2019, 10:49:09 PM
Quote
Why Did Dany Destroy King's Landing? Some Theories From History
To viewers, Daenerys's decision to obliterate the Westerosi capital of King's Landing, a seaside city of 1 million people, would seem to transform her into "the Mad Queen." After her army's successful breaching of the city walls with the help of her dragon, the defending Lannister forces surrendered. Yet Khaleesi continued raining fire on men, women, and children indiscriminately. These are cruel acts, and they may have a purpose: Lords who would otherwise be unlikely to support a foreign invader, especially when news has spread of Jon Snow's hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, must now fear that if they resist Dany, they'll end up as ashes, too.

Possibly the most divisive episode in Thrones history, "The Bells" was redolent with reminders of real-world history: the Dresden firebombing, Vesuvius's mass charring of bodies, Hitler and Eva Braun's bunker death, and even the recent rubble of Aleppo. Conquering soldiers took license to rape and slaughter civilians, just as they have throughout humankind's existence. Looking for more historical context on scorched-earth generals like Daenerys, I spoke with Barry Strauss, a historian at Cornell University who specializes in leaders of the ancient world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/real-history-explains-game-thrones-latest-twist/589357/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/real-history-explains-game-thrones-latest-twist/589357/)

:)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 14, 2019, 11:09:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2019, 09:43:01 PM
You know what the odd thing is?  The fact that so many people are upset with a city burning.  Pre-modern warfare was pretty brutal.  Hell, modern warfare can be brutal.  There are people walking around today who have personally taken part in the burning of entire cities.  Dresden, Tokyo, Hamburg...  Most people weren't too bothered by that 70 years ago.  Pre-modern soldiers and statemen were probably even less bothered by it.

Rome was "sacked: about a half dozen times without actually being burned, razed, levelled etc.  The more common pre-modern practice was to limit destruction to the prize of conquest, i.e. the same rationale advanced by Tyrion, et al. There are exceptions but they notable for being exceptions like the exemplary destruction of certain cities by the Mongols or the punitive razing of the Jerusalem temple.

You are mixing up 20th centural mass total war thinking with pre-modern and ancient practice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 15, 2019, 12:37:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 14, 2019, 11:09:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2019, 09:43:01 PM
You know what the odd thing is?  The fact that so many people are upset with a city burning.  Pre-modern warfare was pretty brutal.  Hell, modern warfare can be brutal.  There are people walking around today who have personally taken part in the burning of entire cities.  Dresden, Tokyo, Hamburg...  Most people weren't too bothered by that 70 years ago.  Pre-modern soldiers and statemen were probably even less bothered by it.

Rome was "sacked: about a half dozen times without actually being burned, razed, levelled etc.  The more common pre-modern practice was to limit destruction to the prize of conquest, i.e. the same rationale advanced by Tyrion, et al. There are exceptions but they notable for being exceptions like the exemplary destruction of certain cities by the Mongols or the punitive razing of the Jerusalem temple.

You are mixing up 20th centural mass total war thinking with pre-modern and ancient practice.


I'm not saying the cities were totally destroyed, though some were.  Presumably there are many survivors in King's Landing and the city will be rebuilt.  Sacking a city tended to involve large scale destruction and fire was extremely common.  I know that Rome burned in at least two of the time's it was sacked (by Gauls and Visigoths).  Probably more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 15, 2019, 01:18:09 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 14, 2019, 11:09:27 PM

You are mixing up 20th centural mass total war thinking with pre-modern and ancient practice.


Blame GRRM, not Raz. :P Martin was a conscientious objector during 'Nam, and this is 100% "we had to destroy the [city] in order to save it."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2019, 01:56:08 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 14, 2019, 10:49:09 PM
Quote
Why Did Dany Destroy King's Landing? Some Theories From History
To viewers, Daenerys's decision to obliterate the Westerosi capital of King's Landing, a seaside city of 1 million people, would seem to transform her into "the Mad Queen." After her army's successful breaching of the city walls with the help of her dragon, the defending Lannister forces surrendered. Yet Khaleesi continued raining fire on men, women, and children indiscriminately. These are cruel acts, and they may have a purpose: Lords who would otherwise be unlikely to support a foreign invader, especially when news has spread of Jon Snow's hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, must now fear that if they resist Dany, they'll end up as ashes, too.

Possibly the most divisive episode in Thrones history, "The Bells" was redolent with reminders of real-world history: the Dresden firebombing, Vesuvius's mass charring of bodies, Hitler and Eva Braun's bunker death, and even the recent rubble of Aleppo. Conquering soldiers took license to rape and slaughter civilians, just as they have throughout humankind's existence. Looking for more historical context on scorched-earth generals like Daenerys, I spoke with Barry Strauss, a historian at Cornell University who specializes in leaders of the ancient world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/real-history-explains-game-thrones-latest-twist/589357/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/real-history-explains-game-thrones-latest-twist/589357/)

:)

It would be a valid argument in other circumstances.
But when earlier in the same episode it was made clear that everyone except the lannisters is supporting her, she has nothing to prove.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 15, 2019, 02:02:51 AM
Varys didn't support her. The North (and, by extension, the Vale) are increasingly dubious allies. No one seems to be in charge of most of the other kingdoms.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 15, 2019, 08:23:05 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 14, 2019, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 14, 2019, 04:28:23 PM
Not the biggest problem this season, but I got a good laugh from the fact that nearly none of the recipients of the "don't tell anybody! ever! never! Promise it!" Jon/Aegon secret makes even a token attempt at actually keeping it a secret.

Sansa is the only one that instantly backstabs Jon, as far as I know.  Jon should have realized that she is just Littlefinger with boobs, and that trusting her word as folly, but Jon Is Dumb.  He's pretty much shown that he is not fit for the throne, either.

Speaking of which--have we seen her boobs? :hmm:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 15, 2019, 01:56:08 AM


It would be a valid argument in other circumstances.
But when earlier in the same episode it was made clear that everyone except the lannisters is supporting her, she has nothing to prove.

It was made quite clear that nobody is genuinly supporting her except for the ex-slaves and the Dothraki. Everyone else was on board due to lack of a better option. The North especially. Jon submitted initially because he needed her help (little he knew all he needed was Arya).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 15, 2019, 09:28:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
It was made quite clear that nobody is genuinly supporting her except for the ex-slaves and the Dothraki. Everyone else was on board due to lack of a better option. The North especially. Jon submitted initially because he needed her help (little he knew all he needed was Arya).

Burning the city changes that fact not at all.  Pretty much every leader gets 95% of their support because they are the least bad option; I'd guess that only about 5% of their supporters probably reckon that a given leader is the best possible one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 10:24:05 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 15, 2019, 01:18:09 AM
Blame GRRM, not Raz. :P Martin was a conscientious objector during 'Nam, and this is 100% "we had to destroy the [city] in order to save it."

We shall see whether your assumption that this is what GRRM communicated to the writers is correct in time.  But for now, we should put the blame with the people who actually wrote the episode.

Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
It was made quite clear that nobody is genuinly supporting her except for the ex-slaves and the Dothraki. Everyone else was on board due to lack of a better option. The North especially. Jon submitted initially because he needed her help (little he knew all he needed was Arya).

Jon swore fealty to her again when he confirmed that she was his Queen.
Tyrion supported her by bringing Varys' betrayal to her.  He also affirmed his loyalty to her.  In fact he arranged a way the city could be saved for her benefit.

Your explanations are as lazy as the writing in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 10:48:45 AM
But you are ignoring how Dany looked at these things. Tyrion "failed her" according to her own words because he went to Varys first instead of Dany. Jon refuses to love her.

yes, her worldview is shown clumsily and with the general lack of talent the showmakers have shown, but it is there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 10:56:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
It was made quite clear that nobody is genuinly supporting her except for the ex-slaves and the Dothraki. Everyone else was on board due to lack of a better option.

It's a pre-modern morarchy.  Legitimacy matters.  She is definitely a legitimate Targaryen heir, there is no other close contender in the show, other than Jon, whose claim is based on his brother's magic visions and his best friend's interpretation of a passage in a stolen book, and whose claim is contradicted by the formal acknowledgement of parentage by Ned Stark, reputed for his punctilious honesty.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 10:57:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 10:48:45 AM
But you are ignoring how Dany looked at these things. Tyrion "failed her" according to her own words because he went to Varys first instead of Dany. Jon refuses to love her.

yes, her worldview is shown clumsily and with the general lack of talent the showmakers have shown, but it is there.

You said everyone else was on board and you gave the reason as being that a better option was not available.  The other option swore fealty to her and recommitted to that oath.  Tyrion - her Hand, knew of the better option and knowing about that other option turned Varys in because Varys was actively pursuing that other option.  It is incredibly sloppy writing to have written all that into the very same episode where we are being asked to accept that her sudden descent into madness was because nobody was supporting her.

Vayrs' sudden change of allegiance (remember he has always supported a return of the Targaryen line) is also remarkable and was obviously written in the foreshadow "valid" concerns.  But it was also completely out of character for him.  The whole thing is a mess.  Why would he have been working all these years to return a Targaryen to the throne if he really believed they were no better than a genetic crap shoot and his true wish was for the Seven Kingdoms to be ruled by a just monarch?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 11:05:53 AM
What would have made sense is if Varys' plot all along was to bring republican rule to Westeros, and is using the Targaryen claimants to wipe out all contenders for the throne with the ultimate intention of discrediting and eliminating Dany as well.  He did make his name in the Free Cities and has oligarchic connections there.

But the notion that Varys really thinks he can bring about lasting, stable and just absolutist rule through King Jon Snow is silly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Point is, she is the least bad option for everyone, there's barely any genuine enthusiasm for her in Westeros, and this has made her feel isolated and unloved. Yes, the show spent a grand total of cca. 10 minutes explaining/showing this, but they were quite clear about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Point is, she is the least bad option for everyone, there's barely any genuine enthusiasm for her in Westeros, and this has made her feel isolated and unloved. Yes, the show spent a grand total of cca. 10 minutes explaining/showing this, but they were quite clear about it.


Everyone?  The show itself spent a great deal of time explaining the context of why Tryion's plan to allow the city to surrender made sense.  He made the case that the people of Kings Landing were fearful of Cersei and once liberated would be loyal.   Dany could have just taken out Cersei and as Tyrion explained, the city would have been hers.  These after the fact justifications make no sense.  The show was going for shock value.  Their problem is, unlike the twists in the books, there was nothing to justify it.  Even the genetic argument makes no sense.  No Targaryen has suddenly snapped like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:24:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:22:41 AM


He made the case that the people of Kings Landing were fearful of Cersei and once liberated would be loyal.   

As I said. Least bad option.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:47:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:24:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:22:41 AM


He made the case that the people of Kings Landing were fearful of Cersei and once liberated would be loyal.   

As I said. Least bad option.

But justify that position. Don't just restate it as an assertion of fact.  If she had spared the city she would have been a good option for the people of Kings Landing.  In fact the very best option having killed the despot who was ruling them bringing an end to all the years of chaos and strife.  She saved the North and now she would have saved the South. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:52:00 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:47:56 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:24:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:22:41 AM


He made the case that the people of Kings Landing were fearful of Cersei and once liberated would be loyal.   

As I said. Least bad option.

But justify that position. Don't just restate it as an assertion of fact.  If she had spared the city she would have been a good option for the people of Kings Landing.  In fact the very best option having killed the despot who was ruling them.

I mean that she was no popular hero, and people would had been content with her rule because of the combination of her legitimacy and being the strongest claimant. Not because people thought good of her.

The show did not even mention of the common folk of King's Landing awaiting her as a liberator, so we must assume the intention is that there was no such sentiment. And we was the Northerners almost entirely ignoring her in favour of Jon, when Jon did precisely nothing apart from convincing her to help.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
:yeah:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 15, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
My god. The fallout over this.
So many smug idiots mocking those who are upset at the shittiness of the episode because obviously we haven't been paying attention and Dany going bad was so expected.
...
Yeah...
Not the issue.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 12:08:05 PM
I went back to the 60 minutes interview with Martin.  What he said then gives me a lot of hope.  "There will be a lot of debate [about who's ending is better]"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:11:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
:yeah:

What am I looking at here? Did GRRM's twitter people like your tweet?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 12:13:44 PM
NO, Martin liked my post on FB in response to his own. Just thought it was kind of cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 15, 2019, 12:17:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 12:13:44 PM
NO, Martin liked my post on FB in response to his own. Just thought it was kind of cool.

That is pretty cool!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 12:31:54 PM
The Guardian summed it up nicely.

QuoteIf the Iron Throne was melted to misshapen slag by Drogon's fiery assault – and judging by the smoking crater that was left once Daenerys was finished, that seems a possibility – it would probably serve as an appropriate metaphor for how a seemingly bulletproof show lost its way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zanza on May 15, 2019, 02:43:53 PM
A spoiler about the next deus ex machina appearance: (https://i.redd.it/nmye85et8ey21.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 02:52:45 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 15, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
My god. The fallout over this.
So many smug idiots mocking those who are upset at the shittiness of the episode because obviously we haven't been paying attention and Dany going bad was so expected.
...
Yeah...
Not the issue.

Yeah but you see I've resigned myself to a general shitty execution in this series 1-2 episodes ago. For me, that's the default of the series now. And from that perspective, episode 5 was good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 15, 2019, 12:13:44 PM
NO, Martin liked my post on FB in response to his own. Just thought it was kind of cool.

Senpai noticed you!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 15, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 02:52:45 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 15, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
My god. The fallout over this.
So many smug idiots mocking those who are upset at the shittiness of the episode because obviously we haven't been paying attention and Dany going bad was so expected.
...
Yeah...
Not the issue.

Yeah but you see I've resigned myself to a general shitty execution in this series 1-2 episodes ago. For me, that's the default of the series now. And from that perspective, episode 5 was good.

Agreed. From a purely spectacle standpoint, this season has been glorious, beautiful, and well-produced. It's the writing that's atrocious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Point is, she is the least bad option for everyone, there's barely any genuine enthusiasm for her in Westeros, and this has made her feel isolated and unloved. Yes, the show spent a grand total of cca. 10 minutes explaining/showing this, but they were quite clear about it.

She was isolated and unloved in Pentos, then isolated and unloved again when her Khal husband died.  It's not an unknown experience for her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 15, 2019, 11:34:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Point is, she is the least bad option for everyone, there's barely any genuine enthusiasm for her in Westeros, and this has made her feel isolated and unloved. Yes, the show spent a grand total of cca. 10 minutes explaining/showing this, but they were quite clear about it.
hmm, now, they discussed before, in a previous season, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 15, 2019, 11:35:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2019, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Point is, she is the least bad option for everyone, there's barely any genuine enthusiasm for her in Westeros, and this has made her feel isolated and unloved. Yes, the show spent a grand total of cca. 10 minutes explaining/showing this, but they were quite clear about it.

She was isolated and unloved in Pentos, then isolated and unloved again when her Khal husband died.  It's not an unknown experience for her.
The first time, she was just a child, the second, she walked into fire and emerged with three dragons.  That's like Jeanne D'Arc walking out of the fire with three GI Joe helicopters shooting lasers at everyone and never requiring fuels.
It changes someone.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 16, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/16/stop-the-nitpicking-this-season-of-game-of-thrones-is-miraculous-the-bells


QuoteThe major sticking point for many was Dany's apparent transmogrification into an unhinged tyrant, as if this was something that happened in the space of five sour-faced minutes. Dany has been burning people alive since Mirri Maz Duur in season one, and has scorched her way through the Tarleys, Varys, the slavers, the loot train and scores of others ever since. Her moral unravelling has been glacial, her innate, entitled Targaryen madness always percolating, its worst impulses tamed and feared by Tyrion, Jorah, Varys and, latterly, Jon. Following the loss of her best friend, her ersatz father, two of her "children", her squeeze, her rightful claim to her birthright, the adoration of her people and her entire reason to exist, it wasn't much of a stretch to accept that her brittle grip on reason would snap. Graduating from only burning those who "deserved" it to chargrilling anyone in her way, including allies who would likely soon become foes, was no giant leap. It seemed inevitable.

QuoteThe performances have been terrific, the set-pieces staggering, and the writing – while not up to the standard of earlier seasons – has succeeded in creating shock-and-awe moments right to the last. Whoever is left digging through the rubble for the Iron Throne in the end, it probably won't be who you wanted, or for the reasons you hoped for. Wasn't that the point all along?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 16, 2019, 10:58:45 AM
The disappointment has nothing to do with the reasons we had hoped for.  This is about there being no reasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 12:49:11 PM
Quoteher innate, entitled Targaryen madness always percolating

Nicely sums up the problem right there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 16, 2019, 03:23:55 PM
Yeah. There is literally zero evidence to suggest that Targaryens are all inherently mad in some way and are just a ticking time-bomb. Plenty of Targaryens were noble and just. Plenty were tyrants. Plenty were just mediocre.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 16, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
Not to mention Maester Aemon who made it past 100 without going fire crazy
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 16, 2019, 06:16:24 PM
I didn't see her actions inspired by mental instability but by rage and an inability to switch out of killing mode.  That's fairly common for people in battle.  Dany's personality has changed a great deal during the show.  She's grown more imperious, ruthless, and cold as the show went on.  I think her setting fire to King's Landing fits that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on May 16, 2019, 06:45:19 PM
I feel we were getting there with her, but a couple of steps were missing in the process. Crucifying and burning Bad People as she has numerous times in the past is a sign of a personality comfortable with brutality and violence.

However, she's generally been until now pretty clear about her Manichaean worldview and whom she unleashes her terror on.

I'm not sure why the folk of King's Landing were deemed Bad People.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 16, 2019, 08:54:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 15, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 15, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Point is, she is the least bad option for everyone, there's barely any genuine enthusiasm for her in Westeros, and this has made her feel isolated and unloved. Yes, the show spent a grand total of cca. 10 minutes explaining/showing this, but they were quite clear about it.


Everyone?  The show itself spent a great deal of time explaining the context of why Tryion's plan to allow the city to surrender made sense.  He made the case that the people of Kings Landing were fearful of Cersei and once liberated would be loyal.   Dany could have just taken out Cersei and as Tyrion explained, the city would have been hers.  These after the fact justifications make no sense.  The show was going for shock value.  Their problem is, unlike the twists in the books, there was nothing to justify it.  Even the genetic argument makes no sense.  No Targaryen has suddenly snapped like that.

Agreed on the reasoning for the city surrendering. Dany did say something about needing to be feared as she became more morose about not being as accepted as Queen. She could have walked into Kings Landing and been accepted, but having destroyed it he'll be feared as was likely her goal but also hated and more in danger for being killed off. That's what the show had to bring her to so she could be taken down, if that's where the writers are going which I suspect. Of course, in this story though anything can happen. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 16, 2019, 11:03:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 16, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/16/stop-the-nitpicking-this-season-of-game-of-thrones-is-miraculous-the-bells


QuoteThe major sticking point for many was Dany's apparent transmogrification into an unhinged tyrant, as if this was something that happened in the space of five sour-faced minutes. Dany has been burning people alive since Mirri Maz Duur in season one, and has scorched her way through the Tarleys, Varys, the slavers, the loot train and scores of others ever since. Her moral unravelling has been glacial, her innate, entitled Targaryen madness always percolating, its worst impulses tamed and feared by Tyrion, Jorah, Varys and, latterly, Jon. Following the loss of her best friend, her ersatz father, two of her "children", her squeeze, her rightful claim to her birthright, the adoration of her people and her entire reason to exist, it wasn't much of a stretch to accept that her brittle grip on reason would snap. Graduating from only burning those who "deserved" it to chargrilling anyone in her way, including allies who would likely soon become foes, was no giant leap. It seemed inevitable.

QuoteThe performances have been terrific, the set-pieces staggering, and the writing – while not up to the standard of earlier seasons – has succeeded in creating shock-and-awe moments right to the last. Whoever is left digging through the rubble for the Iron Throne in the end, it probably won't be who you wanted, or for the reasons you hoped for. Wasn't that the point all along?

Remember Olly? The kid who was a steward for Jon and ended up stabbing him and getting hanged for it?

He got more scenes to slowly show why he did what he did than Daenerys had to explain her actions.

And btw now that I think about it what was the point of the Lord of Light resurrecting Jon? He had no impact on killing the Night King. It makes sense for Beric, since he ends up sacrificing himself to help Arya, but what was Jon's role?

Ugh. I hope the books come out eventually.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 17, 2019, 02:28:01 AM
Dany hasn't had a dialogue since she burnt the city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 17, 2019, 07:39:58 AM
(https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/1/0/2777/27777/277779/27777999_1e98722e0dc9cec1fca46560646f15a9_wm.jpg)


:face:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 17, 2019, 08:24:55 AM
The petition to remake the season has over 800k signatures now. I signed it just to do my part in making that guy feel bad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 17, 2019, 08:49:28 AM
I was just gonna ask, how many of you have signed that petition?  :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 17, 2019, 08:55:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 17, 2019, 07:39:58 AM
Sam's older brother

He didn't even know Sam was a POV character, so it's not surprising he wouldn't grasp the nuances of Sam's story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 09:22:36 AM
Ah yes the noble Tarleys who betrayed their liege lord and assisted in the slaughter of what remained of that House and their former comrades.   Those are the good guys now?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 17, 2019, 09:30:53 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 17, 2019, 08:55:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 17, 2019, 07:39:58 AM
Sam's older brother

He didn't even know Sam was a POV character, so it's not surprising he wouldn't grasp the nuances of Sam's story.

It's far less work to write the script for a book adaptation if you don't read the book. Case in point: Lynch's Dune.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 10:22:25 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 09:22:36 AM
Ah yes the noble Tarleys who betrayed their liege lord and assisted in the slaughter of what remained of that House and their former comrades.   Those are the good guys now?

The point, I believe, was that Samwell was the eldest, and sent to the Wall solely so that Dickon could inherit.  It is pretty nitpicky to try to make a big deal out of a comment made in passing like that, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 17, 2019, 10:40:12 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 09:22:36 AM
Ah yes the noble Tarleys who betrayed their liege lord and assisted in the slaughter of what remained of that House and their former comrades.   Those are the good guys now?

Their liege lord betrayed the crown. Now you're just reaching ( heh)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 17, 2019, 10:40:12 AM
Their liege lord betrayed the crown. Now you're just reaching ( heh)

Their liege lord of the time never betrayed the crown before being murdered by the usurper.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 10:55:59 AM
Tommen was the last Baratheon claimant.  Once he died, it was either Daenerys or pick a usurper.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 17, 2019, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 10:55:59 AM
Tommen was the last Baratheon claimant.  Once he died, it was either Daenerys or pick a usurper.

Gendry?  He probably has a better claim than any of Robert's "legitimate" children.

I know there were other bastards out there too, but Gendry is the only one shown in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 12:01:27 PM
The lore is that bastards have no inheritance rights unless legitimized by their father or a reigning monarch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 17, 2019, 12:06:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 12:01:27 PM
The lore is that bastards have no inheritance rights unless legitimized by their father or a reigning monarch.

Dany did just that after the Winterfell battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 12:42:52 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 17, 2019, 12:06:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 12:01:27 PM
The lore is that bastards have no inheritance rights unless legitimized by their father or a reigning monarch.

Dany did just that after the Winterfell battle.

And because of that he is now her vassal.  As Tyrion pointed out, it was a smart move.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 17, 2019, 01:18:22 PM
But with better writing she would have also accidentally legitimized his right to the throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 01:23:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 10:55:59 AM
Tommen was the last Baratheon claimant.  Once he died, it was either Daenerys or pick a usurper.

The idea that there are no Baratheon cousins, second cousins, third cousins, etc whatsoever seems unlikely to be true.  Cersei usurped the throne immediately upon causing the death of her only surviving child, but that doesn't make her legitimate.  She has no more claim on the throne than Randyll Tarley himself had - maybe less, depending on bloodlines. 

Randal was a traitor to both the royal house and his own liege, whose death was richly deserved.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 01:25:12 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 17, 2019, 01:18:22 PM
But with better writing she would have also accidentally legitimized his right to the throne.

You have a weird idea of what makes "better writing."   :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 01:30:21 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 01:23:41 PM
The idea that there are no Baratheon cousins, second cousins, third cousins, etc whatsoever seems unlikely to be true. 

Agreed but the TV show radically simplifies the family trees - e.g. IIRC there are a couple of missing Tyrell heirs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 01:44:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 17, 2019, 01:23:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 10:55:59 AM
Tommen was the last Baratheon claimant.  Once he died, it was either Daenerys or pick a usurper.

The idea that there are no Baratheon cousins, second cousins, third cousins, etc whatsoever seems unlikely to be true.

Interestingly, in books that go into great depth describing the extended families and familial relationships of the great houses, I don't recall any mention of them.

Edit: come to think of it the cousins are the Targaryens.  They were hiding in plain sight.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 17, 2019, 02:03:56 PM
Yeah, part of the reason that Robert Baratheon was more than a mere usurper was because he's 1/4th Targaryen himself, along with Renly and Stannis. More an Orleanist than a Plantagenet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 17, 2019, 04:00:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 17, 2019, 12:42:52 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 17, 2019, 12:06:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2019, 12:01:27 PM
The lore is that bastards have no inheritance rights unless legitimized by their father or a reigning monarch.

Dany did just that after the Winterfell battle.

And because of that he is now her vassal.  As Tyrion pointed out, it was a smart move.

And this will probably also get completely ignored in the last episode. I'd be surprised if Gendry even shows up at all anymore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 17, 2019, 04:01:52 PM
99% chance they show just about everyone in the last episode, if only briefly. Maybe in the background.

I figure the first half will be wrapping up the story and the last half will be various epilogues.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 11:40:57 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 16, 2019, 11:03:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 16, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/16/stop-the-nitpicking-this-season-of-game-of-thrones-is-miraculous-the-bells


QuoteThe major sticking point for many was Dany's apparent transmogrification into an unhinged tyrant, as if this was something that happened in the space of five sour-faced minutes. Dany has been burning people alive since Mirri Maz Duur in season one, and has scorched her way through the Tarleys, Varys, the slavers, the loot train and scores of others ever since. Her moral unravelling has been glacial, her innate, entitled Targaryen madness always percolating, its worst impulses tamed and feared by Tyrion, Jorah, Varys and, latterly, Jon. Following the loss of her best friend, her ersatz father, two of her "children", her squeeze, her rightful claim to her birthright, the adoration of her people and her entire reason to exist, it wasn't much of a stretch to accept that her brittle grip on reason would snap. Graduating from only burning those who "deserved" it to chargrilling anyone in her way, including allies who would likely soon become foes, was no giant leap. It seemed inevitable.

QuoteThe performances have been terrific, the set-pieces staggering, and the writing – while not up to the standard of earlier seasons – has succeeded in creating shock-and-awe moments right to the last. Whoever is left digging through the rubble for the Iron Throne in the end, it probably won't be who you wanted, or for the reasons you hoped for. Wasn't that the point all along?

Remember Olly? The kid who was a steward for Jon and ended up stabbing him and getting hanged for it?

He got more scenes to slowly show why he did what he did than Daenerys had to explain her actions.

And more to the point, while we can look at Olly and see that his murdering Jon was wrong, it made sense from his perspective and what he valued.

Dany becoming more and more ruthless, and even more and more unhinged? Sure, that is fine. Hell, her character arc is a profound one, and pretty much drives the entire narrative of the show. It's been amazing, in fact.

But that arc worked under some basic principles, some foundational values she held that she used to justify her quest for power.

And that was always, always, ALWAYS the desire to see justice for those that never saw it otherwise. Freeing slaves, freeing the Unsullied.

Hell, the debate between her and Tyrion and Jon over how to handle Kings Landing was presented as a question (and an age old question) between the use of force to meet a just end, and how that force creates collateral damage, often harming the very end the force was intended to achieve.

But this isn't what happened.

To use the Vietnam analogy, the argument  of "What if you must destroy the village in order to save it" is one of military ethics. If we have a village we want to save from the horrible Viet Cong, but in the act of liberating it we end up destroying it, then how can that be ethical? It is a interesting dilemna, and that was the argument Daeny, Jon, and Tyrion were having.

But what happened? That has NOTHING to do with that argument. She didn't destroy Kings Landing in the act of liberating it, she destroyed it AFTER it was liberated.

She was not some US captain calling down artillery on the very village they are trying to save, she was Lt. Calley at My Lai butchering people because they are mad and pissed off. That is not a question of the ethical use of force when it will cause damage to others.

That is what pisses me off about this latest bit of stupid writing. It doesn't even make any sense in the context of its own narrative. Her destroying Kinds Landing AFTER the battle is over is completely irrelevant to the actual argument they spent time setting up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 17, 2019, 07:39:58 AM
(https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/1/0/2777/27777/277779/27777999_1e98722e0dc9cec1fca46560646f15a9_wm.jpg)


:face:

trying to save one example of shit, lazy writing by citing another example of shit, lazy writing isn't that useful
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 06:44:28 PM
This is excellent:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 18, 2019, 07:23:25 PM
I was going to suggest that article, thanks a lot Berkut. <_<
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2019, 03:16:26 AM
Thanks for the link, Berkut.  The piece is marred a bit by the fact that he uses "antihero" when he means "antagonist" (an antihero is a character like Tyrion, not one like Cersei), but I think he hits the nail on the head when he explains what has changed about GoT and why fans don't like the change.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 19, 2019, 03:57:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 18, 2019, 06:44:28 PM
This is excellent:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1

Thanks, this is very interesting. I think he's wrong though, the only truly main character GoT has ever killed is Ned Stark. And being the first season it's always easier to pull that off. People watched the show because they identified themselves with people like Tyrion, Dany, Jon, etc... who are the ones that always drove the narration and have been kept safe until the very end. So it's no true "institutional" narrative like - for example - an Eisenstein film is, or Brecht's theater since he brings that one up. But Martin - and the show did a great job of adapting it - was masterful in weaving a character-driven story with the story of the institutions of Westeros. I.e. The Red Wedding is brought about by Robb falling in love with a servant - a very personal foible of his, not tectonic forces directing his downfall.

And I think that's been kept faithful to the very end, just written sloppily. The show hasn't really changed storytelling dynamics. Dany's madness is the logical culmination of Martin's pessimism about tyranny being an unevitable outcome of the fight for power in society - it was just badly written.

I agree on all of his other points, though, about the pitfalls of traditional western narrative (a topic that greatly interests me). But it's the one that people's craved since Ancient Greece, we're wired that way. Speaking of which, The Wire's ratings were always rather poor for a reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 19, 2019, 07:22:03 AM
@ Berkut- Thank you, that is it exactly.  Although I did not think about it in those terms until I read the article.  Very much appreciated.

@ Cel - he did fall in love but as the article states the individual characters are not deprived of agency;however, their individual decisions are not what drives them he story.  The Red Wedding would have been a very different story if it was just a question of falling for the wrong girl. The thing that made it interesting was the wider contexts in which that happened.  On a person level Robb is oblivious to what he is done.  But the viewer/reader has a strong suspicion the Lannisters are the puppet masters.  The result was a shock for the audience who was following the psychological love story.  But for those paying attention to the wider political dynamics it was a predictable outcome.

I did not understand why so many people did not see it coming.  I had thought it was because the books did a better job at foreshadowing.  But this article provides a better explanation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 19, 2019, 07:55:07 AM
Their decisions do drive the story though. Just because it's an aggregate of several characters doesn't make it an institutional story. It's their opposing wants what drive the conflict, following a theme of the corrupting nature of power. Martin does a big job of conveying their PoV, their emotions, their psichologies, and how those drive their decisions and transform the world around them (in mostly tragic ways). The Wire is a more apt comparison, since he brings that example up. The protagonist and antagonist forces are really abstracted there and the characters just tools to convey them. They are transformed by the world and not the opposite.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2019, 09:16:47 AM
Cel, I think the point is that Robb's decision to fall in love with the wrong girl turned tragic not because of his choice, but because that decision violated the promise he had made in that society to marry a Frey.  The book handled it better, IMO, because he was obligated to marry the noblewoman he had deflowered, and it was entirely possible that the Lannisters had set up a honey trap.  Robb made a decision that was only disastrous because of the society he was in. In modern Western societies, that love story would have been praiseworthy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 19, 2019, 09:58:25 AM
Yeah, but that's the same as Romeo and Juliet (love forbidden by the institution the lovers are part of), and nobody is going to call that story "sociological*". I think the writer sees a different storytelling model where there's just theme (the struggle for power as inherently destructive). Imho, GoT is conventional storytelling, and very good at it.

Again, his larger point, how conventional character-driven storytelling shapes our worldview in possibly detrimental ways, is a valid one, and a very interesting topic.


*I find "dialectical" a better word and the one I've seen more used when discussing this kind of storytelling, but I guess the writer doesn't want to use Marxist words  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2019, 01:40:14 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 19, 2019, 09:58:25 AM
Yeah, but that's the same as Romeo and Juliet (love forbidden by the institution the lovers are part of), and nobody is going to call that story "sociological*".

Interesting that you use that example, because Romeo and Juliett has been taught for decades in US high schools almost exclusively, as far as I can tell, as a sociological story.  It's generally the first of these that students encounter, so teachers use it to show how the sociological tale works and what it takes to fully understand one. 

(It's been replaced as the first sociological work by Things Fall Apart at my school, since sophomore year is about world geography, history, and literature)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 19, 2019, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 19, 2019, 09:58:25 AM
Yeah, but that's the same as Romeo and Juliet (love forbidden by the institution the lovers are part of), and nobody is going to call that story "sociological*".
WTF? That's the only thing that's worth talking about in that play. It's trash, one of Shakespear's worst works.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 19, 2019, 09:40:57 PM
All those stories about how the everyone was crying after they read the script? Now we know the reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 19, 2019, 09:49:28 PM
This was really bad  :lol:  Like, Dexter level bad.

I feel bad for the actors, especially Emilia Clarke. What a shit sandwich they made them eat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 19, 2019, 09:59:54 PM
I can't believe Bran really is the Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 19, 2019, 10:01:03 PM
Wow, can't believe Ghost is the one to sit on the Iron Throne
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 19, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
My initial gut reaction is that it isn't that bad - not nearly as bad as the previous couple of episodes. The finale was always going to be somewhat anti-climatic. The writing, of course, was shit. If they knew it was going to end up with Bran on the throne, they sure as hell didn't act like it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 19, 2019, 10:38:40 PM
Bran: I don't wanna be king

Tyrion: Come on dude be king

Bran: why do you think I came all this way?

:wacko:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 19, 2019, 11:12:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
My initial gut reaction is that it isn't that bad - not nearly as bad as the previous couple of episodes. The finale was always going to be somewhat anti-climatic. The writing, of course, was shit. If they knew it was going to end up with Bran on the throne, they sure as hell didn't act like it.
I'm of the same mind.  We'll see how I feel in the morning.  I have a whole host of issues with the final season(s), but the finale did manage to at least put things in a nice trash can that hides some of the smell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 19, 2019, 11:26:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 19, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
My initial gut reaction is that it isn't that bad - not nearly as bad as the previous couple of episodes. The finale was always going to be somewhat anti-climatic. The writing, of course, was shit. If they knew it was going to end up with Bran on the throne, they sure as hell didn't act like it.

Well I guess the leak was right after all.

But I guess if you have a basically super human all-knowing being you might as well put it in charge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 19, 2019, 11:52:35 PM
That was unexpected...  Why would would you send someone to protect a wall with a big hole in it from a people who are no longer there?  What's the night watch suppose to do?  And how does the King have authority to send someone to the Night's Watch when he no longer is suzerain of the North?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2019, 12:50:37 AM
So basically  move along, nothing to see here
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 20, 2019, 05:45:57 AM
So, uh, was the point of the last 2 seasons to show us how Bran manipulated the course of events to become King of Westeros?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:09:18 AM
Just realized the meaning of the final scenes in the show:  there was no Night's Watch.  The story of Jon's exile to it was just to shut up Grey Worm.  Jon was exiled beyond the wall, but that's where he wanted to go anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2019, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:09:18 AM
Just realized the meaning of the final scenes in the show:  there was no Night's Watch.  The story of Jon's exile to it was just to shut up Grey Worm.  Jon was exiled beyond the wall, but that's where he wanted to go anyway.

Which they could have done anyway, as once the Unsullied salied to Naath they're out of the picture and there's no way they can enforce any pact with them in Westeros.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 10:20:51 AM
I am annoyed that I did not get the slaughter of the Dothraki that I've been dreaming of this whole time. Oh, well. At least lots of them died at Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 20, 2019, 10:22:31 AM
Agree with berkut above.  They did about as well as could be done to wrap it up given the narrative hole they dropped themselves into.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:29:12 AM
Actually, they avoided the really cool ending that would have been easier and more satisfying:  Grey Worm kills Dani (maybe because she DOES offer mercy to the killer of Messande based on Tyrion's or Jon's entreaties).  Grey Worm was more interesting as a character than they exploited in the show, and he'd have made a great bolt from the blue at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:30:34 AM
Also, Grey Worm was the best at teleporting:  Jon left him butchering Lannister soldiers in the street, went to the castle to find Dani, and, when he got to the top of the stairs, met Grey Worm!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:53:41 AM
And what was the mysterious voice in the flames Varys repeatedly referred to?  If it was important, why don't we know the story?  If it wasn't, why do we know there is a story?  Anyone got a clue or theory?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
Was there any point in this entier story that made anyone think "Hey, that Jon Snow guy is pretty bright..."?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 10:58:33 AM
Yes, but mostly with his dealings with Stannis and trying to bridge the gap between the Wildlings and the Night's Watch. His handling of Wildling relations worked out, at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 20, 2019, 11:01:37 AM
As a change, instead of all of us bitching how bad it was, what did people really enjoy about this season?

For me, the complete absurdity of the Battle of Winterfell was a highlight. I loved it. It was insane and stupid and everything I desire in a brainless spectacle.

Also, when everyone laughed at democracy. That made me smile.   :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 11:03:32 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
Was there any point in this entier story that made anyone think "Hey, that Jon Snow guy is pretty bright..."?

No, but I don't think anyone here argues that he was bright.  The show makes it clear that he was honorable beyond the bounds of good sense, and yet lacked the wit to say the right thing at the right time.  Dani practically begged him to show her how to meet her objectives using his methods, and he just shut his mouth and left her with the impression that he hadn't a clue as to what he was talking about.

Only in killing Dani did he show any ability to calculate the costs of action versus inaction.  And that was only after Tyrion laid it out for him so he didn't have to think for himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 20, 2019, 11:10:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:29:12 AM
Actually, they avoided the really cool ending that would have been easier and more satisfying:  Grey Worm kills Dani (maybe because she DOES offer mercy to the killer of Messande based on Tyrion's or Jon's entreaties). 

But that was not an available option after the previous episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 20, 2019, 11:11:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
Was there any point in this entier story that made anyone think "Hey, that Jon Snow guy is pretty bright..."?

His tagline is that he knows nothing.  Pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 11:16:32 AM
What did i enjoy? 

The character moments in episode 2 (less the Gimli-ization of Thormond) were really well-done. 

The end of the Golden Company was a treat; I'd expected far more the cliched fight, but just getting annihilated almost as an afterthought worked much better. 

I liked the way they transitioned Arya from being a murder hobo back to a stark in a few lines of dialogue in the Red Keep with Sandor.  In fact, all the conversations between Arya and the Hound were well-done.

The dragon battle in the skies above Winterfell was tense and exciting, though I still have no idea how to interpret the way it ended.

The burning of the Iron Fleet was good, but made too sharp a contrast with the deus ex machina death of Rhaegon.

I liked the line from Missandei about Arya killing brown-eyed, green-eyed, and blue-eyed people, and realizing at the same moment as Arya did that she had not yet killed any blue-eyed people.

I enjoyed speculating about Bran, because I "knew" it was impossible that the show could have carried such a boring and pointless character for so long without him being vital at the end.  I didn't know that i was wrong until the last frame of the last scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 11:17:43 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 20, 2019, 11:10:15 AM
But that was not an available option after the previous episode.

I agree.  They'd have had to know how to end the show in advance to make the ending satisfactory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 20, 2019, 12:06:53 PM
My God. Could it be any more sloooooow? If the early seasons had moved along at the glacial pace of this season Ned would still be travelling south FFS. I found myself checking my phone while keeping half an eye on the TV.

As I remember saying many years ago, with GoT it's the journey and not the destination. And that is certainly true now. The writing the last two seasons was simply not good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 20, 2019, 01:09:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 10:53:41 AM
And what was the mysterious voice in the flames Varys repeatedly referred to?  If it was important, why don't we know the story?  If it wasn't, why do we know there is a story?  Anyone got a clue or theory?
Melisandre do you mean?  I don't recall Varys talking about a voice in the flames.  That whole "Prince Who Was Promised" thing seems to have disappeared along with the Lord of Light having any use aside from the "wouldn't it be cool if" scene with the Dothraki that was ultimately idiotic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 20, 2019, 01:58:57 PM
The episode would have worked a lot better if Tyrion just kept appearances and conspired with Jon behind her back. Jon stepps in front of the throne and Drogon burns them both. The spore-born Unsullied and Dothraki then leave of their own accord.


I did like Brienne's bit with the Lord Commander's journal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 02:30:24 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 20, 2019, 01:09:25 PM
Melisandre do you mean?  I don't recall Varys talking about a voice in the flames.  That whole "Prince Who Was Promised" thing seems to have disappeared along with the Lord of Light having any use aside from the "wouldn't it be cool if" scene with the Dothraki that was ultimately idiotic.

No, Varys heard this mysterious voice come out of the flames when his manhood was sacrificed by the wizard in Myr.  He mentions it to several people, but the show never resolves the mystery.  It is also in the books, IIRC.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 20, 2019, 02:50:10 PM
I actually liked the season, and felt it ended well.  For the record I didn't like the last season much at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2019, 03:00:34 PM
Again, naff execution.
Didn't see king Bran coming.
Poor Drogon :(

Really seems like they're not closing a series, rather setting up for a series of superior spin offs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2019, 03:03:52 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 20, 2019, 03:00:34 PM
superior spin offs.

We'll see. Though I thought none of the spinoffs were going to be sequels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 03:07:42 PM
I don't think they're doing any sequels, no. All prequels or concurrent stories that follow different characters, perhaps.

I just hope they learn how platemail works against swords, but that's a pretty narrow likelihood.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 20, 2019, 03:35:46 PM
It's Valyrian steel Habu FFS
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 20, 2019, 03:51:05 PM
King Bran makes absolutely no sense. 8 seasons and they couldn't come up with a satisfying resolution to the actual Game of Thrones other than "let's give it to this guy with no power base whose sister has just seceded, but hey, here's this cheapass speech about storytelling to justify it".

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 03:56:52 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 20, 2019, 03:51:05 PM
King Bran makes absolutely no sense. 8 seasons and they couldn't come up with a satisfying resolution to the actual Game of Thrones other than "let's give it to this guy with no power base whose sister has just seceded, but hey, here's this cheapass speech about storytelling to justify it".

By a Lannister Imp, no less.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
Could you imagine the *immediate* new wars that would start, as most of the nobles of Westeros NOT sitting at that table would say "BRANTHEWHOTHEFUCK????" and put forth their own candidate?

Hell, at the point fucking Gendry has a better claim than he does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 04:02:59 PM
Also, btw, the fact that Jon Snow is actually a Targaryen turns out to be....completely meaningless. Awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 20, 2019, 04:16:15 PM
Yeah. The transformation to largely meaningless Hollywood ligtheartedness is complete I guess.

Could have been much worse though.

What really bugged me for some reason was Arya turning Columbus. That came even more from nowhere than Bran.

Also funny that literally none of the big storyarchs (zombies, fire god, Targaryens, the eunuch's talking flames story, probably 6 others) amounted to anything in the series.

Episodes 3 and 4 just burned me out so I am not really disappointed more than I was then. Like the previous episode, this was ok once you shed all expectations.

But I am glad it is over, it was high time the death rattles of the series ended.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 20, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
My head cannon is that Bran planned this all along. The 3 eyed raven is actually the big bad evil, letting people roast and die left and right so he can be king.

Why did he insist on telling Jon about his parents and his claim if he doesn't care about anything?

It doesn't explain the Night King - three eyed raven connection but whatever. Nothing in the show explains why the raven matters or why the night king cares about him anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2019, 04:33:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 04:02:59 PM
Also, btw, the fact that Jon Snow is actually a Targaryen turns out to be....completely meaningless. Awesome.

A Targaryen, the prince who was promised, and the lord of Winterfell and the boy Ned Stark protected at the price of his reputation and pain caused to his wife - all because the leader of the unsullied, who was leaving anyway, didn't want him to be king.

After thinking about though it is a brilliant ending and one Martin likely told them,  but the show runners missed the significance. Perhaps they did not understand what Martin had told them.  The wheel was broken by making the person who would live for thousands of years the new King.

In fact I am pretty sure the writers missed it because they wrote dialogue about Bran not having children who would inherit the throne.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 20, 2019, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 20, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
My head cannon is that Bran planned this all along. The 3 eyed raven is actually the big bad evil, letting people roast and die left and right so he can be king.

Why did he insist on telling Jon about his parents and his claim if he doesn't care about anything?

It doesn't explain the Night King - three eyed raven connection but whatever. Nothing in the show explains why the raven matters or why the night king cares about him anyway.

You a right, the show does not.  It will be interesting to see how Martin deals with it. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 05:14:06 PM
In hindsight, it seems pretty clear that the two showrunners just wanted to do all the 'cool' stuff like the Red Wedding and...didn't pay any attention or give a shit about the lore, the mysteries, the prophecies, etc. I'm really buying the giant, behind-the-scenes break with GRRM now over disagreements with the show's direction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 20, 2019, 05:18:46 PM
Also the only payoff for all those episodes of Arya learning the face-stealing technique seems to have been to kill off a bunch of Freys. Maybe she can amuse the sailors now that she's gone Columbus (where did that come from?)

Oh well, at least Martin can use all that's gone wrong in the show to hopefully finetune the books. If we end up having books at all (somebody get Sanderson on speed-dial).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 20, 2019, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 20, 2019, 05:18:46 PM
Also the only payoff for all those episodes of Arya learning the face-stealing technique seems to have been to kill off a bunch of Freys. Maybe she can amuse the sailors now that she's gone Columbus (where did that come from?)

She apparently mentions it in passing while she's in Braavos with the theatre troupe, but that's as flimsy as rice paper.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 20, 2019, 05:32:28 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 20, 2019, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 20, 2019, 05:18:46 PM
Also the only payoff for all those episodes of Arya learning the face-stealing technique seems to have been to kill off a bunch of Freys. Maybe she can amuse the sailors now that she's gone Columbus (where did that come from?)

She apparently mentions it in passing while she's in Braavos with the theatre troupe, but that's as flimsy as rice paper.

Not even her remembers that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2019, 05:43:43 PM
One bit I did like was Sam's "Maybe we let the people vote?" - LOL! Stuff. For a second there had me thinking "Oh wow, my Republican revolution and president Hot Pie joke prediction isn't far off"

Bran was dumb on oh so many levels. Earlier this very series weren't they just going on about how he can't be king of the north due to his condition?

Interesting thought that this was Martin's original plan but he meant it as something quite dark with the whole Night King/Three Eyed Raven thing being about two pretty nasty forces opposing each other. Shame nothing came of it. I was thinking for a while in this episode, knew it wouldn't happen but was thinking anyway, what if theres some kind of cyclical time travel, have to stop the raven taking over, business.

When Sansa goes "Oh, btw, we want independence"- I wonder why Greyjoy didn't then just go "Oh? Cool. Me too".
And you'd expect maybe Dorne to be the same considering they're the least hit by all these events and most recently independent.

Uncle Tully- I did not recognise him at all at first. Where's he been hiding? Was he putting himself forward there?

Jon filling all these cool heroic tropes but ultimately not being king anyway I have to say I don't have too much of a problem with. Martin does like to subvert convention like that. The killing of Danaeryis in such a way was just as awful an execution as her turn to the dark side. Perhaps more so. Such an anti climax for what should have been, could have been, a Red Wedding style shock
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 06:57:06 PM
Dani's assassination would have been better (and more shocking) had she NOT burned down the city, but instead had simply ordered (as she did) wars without end.  Jon would have had the same reaction, but his motives would have been more mixed and the surprise more deeply felt.

Better would have been Grey Worm killing her to "break the wheel" of her assuming that all the Unsullied wanted forever more was to fight in her never ending crusades.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 07:35:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 06:57:06 PM
Dani's assassination would have been better (and more shocking) had she NOT burned down the city, but instead had simply ordered (as she did) wars without end.  Jon would have had the same reaction, but his motives would have been more mixed and the surprise more deeply felt.

Better would have been Grey Worm killing her to "break the wheel" of her assuming that all the Unsullied wanted forever more was to fight in her never ending crusades.

Hell, she could have burned down the sitting as an act of war, rather than one of genocide, and THAT would have been

A) More actually in line with the debate they had about the morality of destroying Kings Landing in the act of saving it, and
B) Been much more of an ethical dilemna where the "right" answer is actual complex, difficult, and not spoon fed to you by the writers.

The entire show abandoned any real sense of moral and ethical nuance at some point, and everyone became pretty damn single dimensional in the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: saskganesh on May 20, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 19, 2019, 11:52:35 PM
That was unexpected...  Why would would you send someone to protect a wall with a big hole in it from a people who are no longer there?  What's the night watch suppose to do?  And how does the King have authority to send someone to the Night's Watch when he no longer is suzerain of the North?

Exiling Jon was a way of appeasing the Unsullied, and getting him out of the way dynastically. The details are irrelevant.

Note that once he got back to the Wall, he deserts, and goes north with his wildling/freefolk friends where he will think wtf  for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 20, 2019, 08:47:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
Could you imagine the *immediate* new wars that would start, as most of the nobles of Westeros NOT sitting at that table would say "BRANTHEWHOTHEFUCK????" and put forth their own candidate?

Hell, at the point fucking Gendry has a better claim than he does.

Plus,if the North gets to secede why not other kingdoms. I envision a massive civil war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 20, 2019, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 20, 2019, 08:47:48 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
Could you imagine the *immediate* new wars that would start, as most of the nobles of Westeros NOT sitting at that table would say "BRANTHEWHOTHEFUCK????" and put forth their own candidate?

Hell, at the point fucking Gendry has a better claim than he does.

Plus,if the North gets to secede why not other kingdoms. I envision a massive civil war.

All of the other lords of Westeros were bannermen to the ones who named Bran king.

War against Bran might not go so peachy, what with his spooky ability to see everything his enemies are planning and doing.  I just wonder what the reaction is when they realize (as Berkut pointed out above) that Bran isn't going to die?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 20, 2019, 09:29:32 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on May 20, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
Note that once he got back to the Wall, he deserts, and goes north with his wildling/freefolk friends where he will think wtf  for the rest of his life.

Aegon VI Targaryen, King-Beyond-the-Wall.  :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2019, 11:29:05 PM
I don't get why the Northern Lords wouldn't rally to a Stark King. Wouldn't that theoretically make them the top dogs in the Seven Kingdoms? Why would they go with Sansa?

Granted Bran isn't Bran but some bizarre collective memory of the Greenseers or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 21, 2019, 12:19:25 AM
A better alternate ending:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/br2t0z/this_video_of_an_alternate_ending_wins_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on May 21, 2019, 01:32:08 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 10:20:51 AM
I am annoyed that I did not get the slaughter of the Dothraki that I've been dreaming of this whole time. Oh, well. At least lots of them died at Winterfell.

They are magical Dothraki, appearing and disappearing according to the writers' needs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 21, 2019, 02:02:00 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 21, 2019, 01:32:08 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 20, 2019, 10:20:51 AM
I am annoyed that I did not get the slaughter of the Dothraki that I've been dreaming of this whole time. Oh, well. At least lots of them died at Winterfell.

They are magical Dothraki, appearing and disappearing according to the writers' needs.
Much like the Unsullied who are either magical or reproduce like Gremlins at an all you can eat after midnight restaurant with the sprinklers on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2019, 07:32:35 AM
I don't get why Drogon, upset that his mother was killed, and the killer was standing right next to him, took his rage out on the chair.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Maladict on May 21, 2019, 07:34:59 AM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2019, 07:32:35 AM
I don't get why Drogon, upset that his mother was killed, and the killer was standing right next to him, took his rage out on the chair.

That's the chair force for you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 07:35:35 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/1Tb9ppq/Drogon.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on May 21, 2019, 07:39:01 AM
It was Dany's Gollum moment, with the One Ring she had obsessed over going into the flames.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2019, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 20, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
Could you imagine the *immediate* new wars that would start, as most of the nobles of Westeros NOT sitting at that table would say "BRANTHEWHOTHEFUCK????" and put forth their own candidate?

Hell, at the point fucking Gendry has a better claim than he does.

I wrote off the book series long ago and haven't seen all of the show (was never my thing, I quit watching after s3 or s4, but did watch all of the most recent season); but I suspect this is just a good example of show runners working backward from Martin's ending with little help on the journey there, and trying to shove too much into too limited an episode count. HBO wanted the last two seasons to be full 10 episode seasons, the production team wanted the shorter seasons.

My suspicion, if Martin ever finishes his books (which I somewhat doubt he ever will), is Bran will be far more involved in leading and winning the campaign against the Others than Bran the TV character was, which will make his ascension far more logical. In the TV series Bran, probably because his story isn't easy to tell on TV and because the show I think chose to put less emphasis on magic than the books, spent so much of his time sitting in his wheelchair staring oddly into the distance that he just wasn't well set up to be a logical King.

The books don't even have a direct analogue to the Night King [the Night's King from ancient Westeros myth in the books was a human Night's Watch commander who, 8000 years ago had allied with the Others and briefly setup the Night's Watch as an independent Kingdom, when he was defeated it was found he had been performing human sacrifices to the Others and his actions are one reason all of the Night's Watch fortresses are not fortified to the South, so that they are defenseless versus the lands of the 7 Kingdoms]; so we can assume the scene with Arya flying in from the sky to kill him was entirely a D&D/HBO invention, and it's reasonable to conclude that a malignant magical force like the Others likely will require a powerful magical user on the opposite side to defeat, which to me suggests Bran is probably going to be much more directly involved in the books.

I think HBO could've "gotten there" with Bran being a logical King, but they just didn't do the work of telling the story that way, and it appears they just tried to force it in with a 3 minute speech by Tyrion which leaves us with a very in-universe illogical outcome. [Even weirder, Bran is crowned King but let's ignore the fact he's the rightful heir to Ned Stark, not Sansa, so it shouldn't even be Sansa's decision on what the North does.]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2019, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 19, 2019, 09:49:28 PM
This was really bad  :lol:  Like, Dexter level bad.

I feel bad for the actors, especially Emilia Clarke. What a shit sandwich they made them eat.

:hmm: It wasn't even the same galaxy than the Dexter ending. For an American series, this ending was top 10 recent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 11:00:10 AM
I don't understand why Bran couldn't be King of the 6 Kingdoms and also King in the North a la the Stuarts.  :hmm:

Oh, wait, because the writers are stupids.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 21, 2019, 11:01:24 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 11:00:10 AM
I don't understand why Bran couldn't be King of the 6 Kingdoms and also King in the North a la the Stuarts.  :hmm:

Because then Sansa wouldn't get her coronation scene at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 11:14:04 AM
Oh, right. Girl power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon immediately after the murder of Daenerys? He seemed pretty upset generally even before the murder and no one could have blamed him. Did I miss something or was it just another piece of lazy writing?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2019, 12:29:50 PM
And you could have even made that work as well.

The North wants indepenence, and given the sacrifices they uniquely made to stop to the zombies, they get it. But they want true independence, and they are concerned that any dual monarchy would inevitable lead to them being subsumed back into a practical subservience, and some of the notable nobles resist.

So the compromise is that they agree to the political divide, but only as long as the Westerosi King is separate from the Northern monarch, hence Bran gives up all claim to the North in favor of a Start that can actually provide an heir, Sansa.

But of course that would require them to take valuable time away from the dragon burning up children, so fuck it, lets just go with the 3 minutes speechifying instead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon immediately after the murder of Daenerys? He seemed pretty upset generally even before the murder and no one could have blamed him. Did I miss something or was it just another piece of lazy writing?

Grey Worm wasn't in the room when Jon assassinated Dani.  I'm not sure why; none of her guards were.

Unless Drogon was actually taking Dani's body to Grey Worm, GW wouldn't even know she was dead, let alone that Jon had killed her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Spending screentime on succession discussions seems dumb when we can just have more Bronn threatening people with a crossbow, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2019, 12:29:50 PM
But of course that would require them to take valuable time away from the dragon burning up children, so fuck it, lets just go with the 3 minutes speechifying instead.

You could have kept the child-cooking bit but then you'd have had to eliminate one of the six scenes where Arya narrowly avoids death.  Can't have too many of those.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 21, 2019, 12:40:37 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2019, 12:29:50 PM
And you could have even made that work as well.

The North wants indepenence, and given the sacrifices they uniquely made to stop to the zombies, they get it. But they want true independence, and they are concerned that any dual monarchy would inevitable lead to them being subsumed back into a practical subservience, and some of the notable nobles resist.

So the compromise is that they agree to the political divide, but only as long as the Westerosi King is separate from the Northern monarch, hence Bran gives up all claim to the North in favor of a Start that can actually provide an heir, Sansa.

But of course that would require them to take valuable time away from the dragon burning up children, so fuck it, lets just go with the 3 minutes speechifying instead.

When you are an immortal spirit being you don't need to provide an heir -_-
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:47:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon immediately after the murder of Daenerys? He seemed pretty upset generally even before the murder and no one could have blamed him. Did I miss something or was it just another piece of lazy writing?

Grey Worm wasn't in the room when Jon assassinated Dani.  I'm not sure why; none of her guards were.

Unless Drogon was actually taking Dani's body to Grey Worm, GW wouldn't even know she was dead, let alone that Jon had killed her.

:ike:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 21, 2019, 01:06:18 PM
Remember back in the Battle of the Bastards when I said that the writers had all pretty much given up trying to tell the GoT story, and had pretty much just started churning out vanilla Hollywood scripts with gorgeous production values?

Well....yeah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2019, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon immediately after the murder of Daenerys? He seemed pretty upset generally even before the murder and no one could have blamed him. Did I miss something or was it just another piece of lazy writing?

Grey Worm wasn't in the room when Jon assassinated Dani.  I'm not sure why; none of her guards were.

Unless Drogon was actually taking Dani's body to Grey Worm, GW wouldn't even know she was dead, let alone that Jon had killed her.

Right, I'd love to actually know what happened there. Jon is pretty dumb, did he just run to Grey Worm and admit he had killed Dany? Because absent doing that, I don't know how the Unsullied or Dothraki would even know Dany was dead, at least not until after Jon easily made his escape from their camp by walking out unmolested, since there was literally no body or human witness it'd be easy to presume she was off flying Drogon--something she did regularly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2019, 01:38:27 PM
I think the one true black mark against Benioff & Weiss is that they could've easily done better and just chose not too, likely because they had grown tired of the property and wanted to move on to other projects. The key evidence is HBO wanted 7/8 to be 10 episode seasons, and B&W only agreed to do 7 & 6, that's 7+ hours of screen time where they could've at least tried to move more rationally to Martin's outlined ending. They could've had a whole arc where Dany starts seeing "visions" and getting increasingly paranoid. They could've had an actual traditional battle maybe between the Dany vs Cersei forces, one where something happens that pushes Dany over the edge and causes her to take an even darker turn. Then they could portray the King's Landing siege a bit longer, with even more growing frustration/paranoid for Dany and her finally lashing out and just burning up the city with Drogon. Meanwhile they could've also used more time building Bran up, showcasing his magical abilities, even making those abilities part of how the Night King is defeated. I'm no writer so I'm short on specifics, but even a half-assed effort would what actually happened, which was almost no logical buildup to the ending events and they just try to paper it over with Varys saying "when a Targaryen is born a coin is flipped" and Tyrion saying "clearly Bran the Broken should be King because reasons", and then having everyone go along with it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 21, 2019, 01:39:11 PM
Jon is noble to a fault. A dumb, dump fault. he's not a wolf, he's a labradoodle. Of course he told them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: FunkMonk on May 21, 2019, 02:04:18 PM
My wife, who's never seen the show or read the books, is suddenly interested in watching GoT now, after all the fanfare and outrage at its end, so we're watching it from the very beginning.

Watching through Episode 4 of Season 1 and it's ridiculous how good the writing is compared to Season 7 or 8. It's like an entirely different show  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 21, 2019, 02:06:38 PM
Bran as king makes sort of sense; the entire realm is exhausted and devastated from war and all the ambitious lords are dead.  The North gets its kingdom.  The Vale lords are portrayed as tending to isolationism and lacking broader ambition and are also pro-Stark.  Neither Edmure nor Gendry are likely to make trouble or oppose a Stark king. Bronn has no connections or base of support beyond what he has been given by Tyrion on sufferance and appears to be content with what he has. Tyrion presumably controls the Lannister lands.  The Ironborn are mostly wiped out at this point. Dorne would be expected to seek independence but the writers long ago gave up on any real treatment of Dornish politics, probably for the best.  Bran threatens no one and is an ideal figurehead.

I guess that all that could be explained better but simply showing the motley crew on that stage delivers the point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 21, 2019, 02:06:38 PM
Bran as king makes sort of sense; the entire realm is exhausted and devastated from war and all the ambitious lords are dead.

Not Lord Edmure! He shot his shot and was let down by his own niece.  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 21, 2019, 02:27:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 21, 2019, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 21, 2019, 02:06:38 PM
Bran as king makes sort of sense; the entire realm is exhausted and devastated from war and all the ambitious lords are dead.

Not Lord Edmure! He shot his shot and was let down by his own niece.  :(

That's the second shot he missed on the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2019, 01:06:18 PM
Remember back in the Battle of the Bastards when I said that the writers had all pretty much given up trying to tell the GoT story, and had pretty much just started churning out vanilla Hollywood scripts with gorgeous production values?

Well....yeah.

I was hoping that you were wrong.  I hoped in vain. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2019, 01:38:27 PM
...The key evidence is HBO wanted 7/8 to be 10 episode seasons, and B&W only agreed to do 7 & 6,...

I agree with the basic thrust of your argument, but think that this "evidence" has become something that is believed because it is believed.  As far as I know, the "ten episode" bit (and the "ten seasons' it all came from the HBO production manager, who said after the truncation of the seasons was announcing something like "I think I could have gotten them ten episodes a season and even a ninth and tenth seasons."  That's not the same as "HBO wanted..."  There was no money guarantee and keeping the cast together for more shooting would be expensive.

I think that HBO would have been better-served by having D&D hand over the show after season 6, so they could pursue the Star wars TV show project.  They'd have still gotten some residuals as the adapter for TV, but wouldn't be so time-constrained.  Somebody new could work on wrapping things up in the final 20 or so episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 21, 2019, 03:04:08 PM
I haven't followed the behind-the-scenes goings that closely, but I seem to recall one of the reasons given for the shorter seasons was to be able to have a higher budget per episode. Which imho has been counterproductive (too low story/spectacle ratio), but seems a rather believable reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 21, 2019, 03:08:30 PM
It looked to me as the choice of Bran was designed to allow the government to be ruled by the Small Council.  Country really needs a Parliament.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
I do wonder how Brann as King is exactly going to work.

On the one hand, he has no allies (the North is now free), no natural source of power, and he's not exactly a warm and fuzzy type.

But on the other hand he can see through time and space.  Which sounds like it would be pretty handy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 21, 2019, 03:43:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
I do wonder how Brann as King is exactly going to work.

On the one hand, he has no allies (the North is now free), no natural source of power, and he's not exactly a warm and fuzzy type.

But on the other hand he can see through time and space.  Which sounds like it would be pretty handy.

And, as I pointed out earlier, he will live for thousands of years.  Not really sure why he made a point of needing a Master of Whisperers, unless that was a joke that nobody in the Small Council got.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tonitrus on May 21, 2019, 04:34:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2019, 03:08:30 PM
It looked to me as the choice of Bran was designed to allow the government to be ruled by the Small Council.  Country really needs a Parliament.

And then a Cromwell?  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 21, 2019, 05:06:52 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
I do wonder how Brann as King is exactly going to work.

On the one hand, he has no allies (the North is now free), no natural source of power, and he's not exactly a warm and fuzzy type.

That's exactly how it is supposed to work - he has no agenda or family interest left, he can rule without fear or favor. If any other lord would move to replace him, it would leave all the rest worse off.  His source of power is inertia and collective deterrence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 21, 2019, 05:10:06 PM
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/494/504/259.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 21, 2019, 06:10:23 PM
Wonder how Sansa knew about Bran's dick?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 21, 2019, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2019, 06:10:23 PM
Wonder how Sansa knew about Bran's dick?

IIRC it was mentioned already when he was thrown from the tower that he'd never be able to walk again or have children.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: katmai on May 21, 2019, 08:24:28 PM
Quote from: Josephus on May 21, 2019, 06:10:23 PM
Wonder how Sansa knew about Bran's dick?

They aren't Lannisters, sheesh Josephus
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 21, 2019, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
I do wonder how Brann as King is exactly going to work.

On the one hand, he has no allies (the North is now free), no natural source of power, and he's not exactly a warm and fuzzy type.

But on the other hand he can see through time and space.  Which sounds like it would be pretty handy.

His uncle, cousin, and main proponent for the throne rule the Riverlands, Vale, and Westerlands, respectively. Also, there's nothing keeping the North from intervening in a civil war.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 22, 2019, 05:54:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2019, 03:43:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
I do wonder how Brann as King is exactly going to work.

On the one hand, he has no allies (the North is now free), no natural source of power, and he's not exactly a warm and fuzzy type.

But on the other hand he can see through time and space.  Which sounds like it would be pretty handy.

And, as I pointed out earlier, he will live for thousands of years.  Not really sure why he made a point of needing a Master of Whisperers, unless that was a joke that nobody in the Small Council got.

Will he though?
Bloodraven was only 120 or so right? And he was hooked up to the freaky world tree and had the children around him all kinds of weirdness to extend his life. But he was still near death.

There's no reason Bran can't take a disciple, pass on his knowledge, and ultimately pass on the raven powers. And there could well be a case for this new person taking over. But I don't think it'd be automatic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 22, 2019, 07:02:20 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2019, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon immediately after the murder of Daenerys? He seemed pretty upset generally even before the murder and no one could have blamed him. Did I miss something or was it just another piece of lazy writing?

Grey Worm wasn't in the room when Jon assassinated Dani.  I'm not sure why; none of her guards were.

Unless Drogon was actually taking Dani's body to Grey Worm, GW wouldn't even know she was dead, let alone that Jon had killed her.

Right, I'd love to actually know what happened there. Jon is pretty dumb, did he just run to Grey Worm and admit he had killed Dany? Because absent doing that, I don't know how the Unsullied or Dothraki would even know Dany was dead, at least not until after Jon easily made his escape from their camp by walking out unmolested, since there was literally no body or human witness it'd be easy to presume she was off flying Drogon--something she did regularly.

Heh, maybe Drogon told Grey Worm that Jon did it.... I felt that was scene was a bit lame. Jon just killed her - what was his end game for the aftermath? He didn't want to rule but then who would rule and how would the new ruler come to power? Could have wound up with a worse situation as leaders warred with each other for power. He had no plan, just kill Dany.

Like you said, he was alone and had walked through some corridors getting there with no guards in sight. so how was he caught? Could he have slipped back out, and if so, why didn't he? There would still be the issue of succession for ruling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 22, 2019, 07:08:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2019, 03:43:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 21, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
I do wonder how Brann as King is exactly going to work.

On the one hand, he has no allies (the North is now free), no natural source of power, and he's not exactly a warm and fuzzy type.

But on the other hand he can see through time and space.  Which sounds like it would be pretty handy.

And, as I pointed out earlier, he will live for thousands of years.  Not really sure why he made a point of needing a Master of Whisperers, unless that was a joke that nobody in the Small Council got.

I originally thought Bran was a good choice, but it was done almost on a whim with the writing. Bran had a relatively small part in things, at least that most people would see. Maybe that would change as he ruled and his abilities would show themselves well enough?

Then too, Tyrion making his case for Bran, just having had his chains removed, seemed too quick and not debated as I would have expected. The points for Bran are that he's more neutral, non-power hungry and much less baggage than other of the realms leaders may have.

As I said, I think that Bran should have had more impact or visibility in at least the last few episodes to make him a more viable candidate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 22, 2019, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: KRonn on May 22, 2019, 07:02:20 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2019, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
Why didn't Grey Worm kill Jon immediately after the murder of Daenerys? He seemed pretty upset generally even before the murder and no one could have blamed him. Did I miss something or was it just another piece of lazy writing?

Grey Worm wasn't in the room when Jon assassinated Dani.  I'm not sure why; none of her guards were.

Unless Drogon was actually taking Dani's body to Grey Worm, GW wouldn't even know she was dead, let alone that Jon had killed her.

Right, I'd love to actually know what happened there. Jon is pretty dumb, did he just run to Grey Worm and admit he had killed Dany? Because absent doing that, I don't know how the Unsullied or Dothraki would even know Dany was dead, at least not until after Jon easily made his escape from their camp by walking out unmolested, since there was literally no body or human witness it'd be easy to presume she was off flying Drogon--something she did regularly.

Heh, maybe Drogon told Grey Worm that Jon did it.... I felt that was scene was a bit lame. Jon just killed her - what was his end game for the aftermath? He didn't want to rule but then who would rule and how would the new ruler come to power? Could have wound up with a worse situation as leaders warred with each other for power. He had no plan, just kill Dany.

Like you said, he was alone and had walked through some corridors getting there with no guards in sight. so how was he caught? Could he have slipped back out, and if so, why didn't he? There would still be the issue of succession for ruling.
Being totally honorable, he would denounce himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 22, 2019, 07:57:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 21, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
I'm not sure why; none of her guards were.
Jon couldn't have killed her is she had guards, duh! ;)

I guess she felt having Drogon down the stairs was all the protection she needed.

Quote
Unless Drogon was actually taking Dani's body to Grey Worm, GW wouldn't even know she was dead, let alone that Jon had killed her.
Well, there is a pool of blood right there...  And there's the fact, that some people did see or were aware that Jon Snow was going to see the queen and was alone with her.
Circumstancial, but it isn't exactly modern US standards of evidences to convict someone over there.

But also, I figured, he went out crying and said something like "I loved her, but she was crazy, I had to do it, I'm sorry".

Also the fact that Drogon melted the Iron Throne, left with Daenery's body, but didn't reduce anything else near the blood to a pile of ash, ruling out pretty much anyone else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 22, 2019, 08:49:53 PM
You know, one of the founding premisies of the novel/show was never actually addressed.  Why are the seasons out of whack?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 22, 2019, 08:59:04 PM
Yeah, that makes sense. He wouldn't likely have just slinked away and someone had to have seen him go in even though we didn't see anyone as he walked through the halls. But I think the issue still stands, there was not really any  end game in killing Dany. A good possibility of factional fighting between the Lords vying for the crown. And what would be the reaction of the Unsullied and Dothraki? It could have wound up so very messy. A question mostly for the writers though, and things were so quiet in the aftermath which wasn't really explained.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 22, 2019, 10:44:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2019, 08:49:53 PM
You know, one of the founding premisies of the novel/show was never actually addressed.  Why are the seasons out of whack?

Out of whack how?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 22, 2019, 11:14:11 PM
Yeah, the seasons seem normal to me assuming the planet is orbiting a short-period variable star.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2019, 01:50:38 AM
GRRM has specifically said the seasons are magical.
It's weird that there was no mention of them after the others were defeated
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 23, 2019, 01:54:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2019, 01:50:38 AM
GRRM has specifically said the seasons are magical.
It's weird that there was no mention of them after the others were defeated

You know, you've just made me wonder what your average, say, burgher in the low Middle Ages would think that causes the seasons. I guess they thought they were magical, too (divine)?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 23, 2019, 04:18:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2019, 01:50:38 AM
GRRM has specifically said the seasons are magical.
It's weird that there was no mention of them after the others were defeated


Yeah.  That's what I was thinking.  It's like a Chekov's gun that everyone forgot about.  There was talk earlier in the show that the when winter comes they need to have plenty of food stored away to feed King's Landing.  When Dany arrives at King's landing it looks fairly warm outside.  Then after she destroys it, it snows.  Then a few weeks later when they have the big summit it's the trees have all their leaves.  So did they change the climate when they killed the Night King?  Or is just not so bad when winter comes?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 23, 2019, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: celedhring on May 23, 2019, 01:54:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2019, 01:50:38 AM
GRRM has specifically said the seasons are magical.
It's weird that there was no mention of them after the others were defeated

You know, you've just made me wonder what your average, say, burgher in the low Middle Ages would think that causes the seasons. I guess they thought they were magical, too (divine)?


I think they believed it had to do with the way the wind was blowing.

Quote

WHAN that Aprille with his shoures soote 1   
The droghte 2 of Marche hath perced to the roote,   
And bathed every veyne in swich 3 licour,   
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;   
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth           5
Inspired hath in every holt 4 and heeth   
The tendre croppes, 5 and the yonge sonne   
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne, 6   
And smale fowles maken melodye,   
That slepen al the night with open ye,           10
(So priketh hem nature in hir corages: 7   
Than longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,   
And palmers for to seken straunge strondes, 8   
To ferne halwes, 9 couthe 10 in sondry londes;   
And specially, from every shires ende           15
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,   
The holy blisful martir for to seke,   
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seke. 11   
  Bifel that, in that sesoun on a day,   
In Southwerk at the Tabard as I lay 12           20
Redy to wenden on my pilgrimage   
To Caunterbury with ful devout corage,   
At night was come in-to that hostelrye   
Wel 13 nyne and twenty in a compaignye,   
Of sondry folk, by aventure 14 y-falle 15           25
In felawshipe, and pilgrims were they alle,   
That toward Caunterbury wolden ryde;   
The chambres and the stables weren wyde,   
And wel we weren esed atte beste. 16   
And shortly, whan the sonne was to reste,           30
So hadde I spoken with hem everichon, 17   
That I was of hir felawshipe anon,   
And made forward 18 erly for to ryse,   
To take our wey, ther as I yow devyse

that should clear it up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2019, 04:40:38 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 23, 2019, 04:18:02 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2019, 01:50:38 AM
GRRM has specifically said the seasons are magical.
It's weird that there was no mention of them after the others were defeated


Yeah.  That's what I was thinking.  It's like a Chekov's gun that everyone forgot about.  There was talk earlier in the show that the when winter comes they need to have plenty of food stored away to feed King's Landing.  When Dany arrives at King's landing it looks fairly warm outside.  Then after she destroys it, it snows.  Then a few weeks later when they have the big summit it's the trees have all their leaves.  So did they change the climate when they killed the Night King?  Or is just not so bad when winter comes?

Quite clearly they just wanted to wrap the whole thing up and go home. They had more pressing matters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2019, 04:42:59 AM
Read a good point in a review:

One of the last scenes was Tyrion arranging the seats at the council table. This was clearly a reference to his moment of dragging his chair earlier (season 3 I think?). These two scenes are the best showcases of the fall in quality.

The original scene was awesome: it was funny, yes, but it also told you a lot about the dynamics of the council and the people in it. This last one? Had no purpose whatsoever. Seems like all they thought was "people laughed when the dwarf was messing with the chairs, let's have him mess with them again".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 23, 2019, 04:49:04 AM
The seasons were magical because of their uneven length, but just in Westeros.

There were just SO many unfired Chekov's guns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josephus on May 23, 2019, 06:35:35 AM
Global warming. Winter didn't last as long as they thought.

Seriously I agree. There was lots of talk for years about "winter's coming"; which made it seem that A)Winter is an unusual event and B) wasn't it supposed to last a long time?

But yeah, King's Landing looked nice and tropical and even the north looked like it normally did. One would think that in winter it would be inhospitable, to the fact that jon couldn't just get on a horse and ride into the sunrise at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on May 23, 2019, 07:27:45 AM
Winter was actually less severe in the North than it had been in previous seasons. Remember why Stannis burned his daughter?  The writers didn't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 23, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
The last two seasons felt like watching a Peter Jackson movie. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
I feel like they ripped off Jackson's work, yes. The Ride of the Rohirrim, Helm's Deep...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 23, 2019, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
I feel like they ripped off Jackson's work, yes. The Ride of the Rohirrim, Helm's Deep...

I was thinking the clueless use of source material, reliance on big battle scenes, and glacial pace.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2019, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
I feel like they ripped off Jackson's work, yes. The Ride of the Rohirrim, Helm's Deep...

They should have taken note of how the elves didn't line up OUTSIDE of Helm's Deep to defend it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2019, 10:43:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 23, 2019, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
I feel like they ripped off Jackson's work, yes. The Ride of the Rohirrim, Helm's Deep...

I was thinking the clueless use of source material, reliance on big battle scenes, and glacial pace.

F you, the LOTR movies were great.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 23, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2019, 10:43:26 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 23, 2019, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
I feel like they ripped off Jackson's work, yes. The Ride of the Rohirrim, Helm's Deep...

I was thinking the clueless use of source material, reliance on big battle scenes, and glacial pace.

F you, the LOTR movies were great.

Jesus, calm down. Have a beet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:55:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 23, 2019, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 23, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
I feel like they ripped off Jackson's work, yes. The Ride of the Rohirrim, Helm's Deep...

They should have taken note of how the elves didn't line up OUTSIDE of Helm's Deep to defend it.

Elves were clearly inferiors--they relied on outside help to save the day, whereas the Winterfell defenders defeated the Big Bad all by themselves!

If the strategy works, it's a good one!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2019, 05:32:38 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 23, 2019, 04:49:04 AM
The seasons were magical because of their uneven length, but just in Westeros.

There were just SO many unfired Chekov's guns.

Was it ever confirmed they were just in Westeros?
I know this was heavily theorised but can't recall verification.
There are also theories for instance that the north connects to the far east of Essos- there's talk of another 'wall' and the same legends of Azor Ahai et al over in this world's China.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 23, 2019, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 23, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
The last two seasons felt like watching a Peter Jackson movie. :(


That's what I thought during the fight between the Hound and the Mountain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Liep on May 24, 2019, 12:48:05 AM
Next book in July 2020
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 24, 2019, 12:57:26 AM
Quote from: Liep on May 24, 2019, 12:48:05 AM
Next book in July 2020

Or New Zealand gets to imprison him, apparently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 24, 2019, 07:13:50 PM
Okay, I have a question.  In the summit they claim that all the most powerful lords and ladies of Westeros are in attendance.  One of the people there is Samwell Tarly.  I thought that implied he had returned home and inherited his families title.  In the ending scene he is wearing a Maester's out fit and is called "Grand Master".  So what is he exactly?  He had been a sworn member of the Night's Watch but I thought he was the only one left who hadn't died and figured that organization was now defunct.  If he's a Maester now, who runs Horn Hill?  He's the last heir.  He also has a child on the way and Maesters aren't allowed to have kids.  Also I thought it took a long time to become a Maester let along an Grand Maester.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on May 24, 2019, 07:16:57 PM
If he's out of succession "his" kid inherits
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on May 24, 2019, 07:44:46 PM
Except Gilly was preggers with Samwell's actual kid.

The succession of the Tarlys was yet another built up plotline that never went anywhere.

And surely Sam would be a lot more of a logical choice to inherit Highgarden than Bronn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Camerus on May 24, 2019, 07:58:13 PM
I would have liked to see Bronn take Casterly Rock actually. With the gold mines depleted, it's much less of a valuable prize. Plus, Bronn's cunning and acquisitiveness is a good suit culturally for the place, much more so than Highgarden. 

There's also dim historical precedent, with the legend of Lann the Clever having kicked the original Casterlys out of the place.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 24, 2019, 09:48:19 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 24, 2019, 07:13:50 PM
Okay, I have a question.  In the summit they claim that all the most powerful lords and ladies of Westeros are in attendance.  One of the people there is Samwell Tarly.  I thought that implied he had returned home and inherited his families title.  In the ending scene he is wearing a Maester's out fit and is called "Grand Master".  So what is he exactly?  He had been a sworn member of the Night's Watch but I thought he was the only one left who hadn't died and figured that organization was now defunct.  If he's a Maester now, who runs Horn Hill?  He's the last heir.  He also has a child on the way and Maesters aren't allowed to have kids.  Also I thought it took a long time to become a Maester let along an Grand Maester.

You're giving this way more thought than the writers. The answer is it looked cool to them for Sam to bring out that book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 24, 2019, 09:54:29 PM
Sam may have been serving as regent of Horn Hill for his son. But shortly thereafter he was arrested for unpaid library fees and forced to finish his Maester's degree. Also, Bran pardoned everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 24, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
So Jon was brought back to life in a miracle in order to assassinate Dani?  The whole Azura Ahai thing as well as The Prince That Was Promised were just misdirection?

It also strikes me that all of the sacrifices of the troops and civilians who died in the Battle of Winterfell were completely unnecessary.  Everytbody runs south while Bran sits beneath the Weirwoord tree and Arya hides in the branches.  When the the Night King comes to kill Bran, Arya kills him, all the wights and ice dragon and White Walkers turn to ice and disintegrate, and not a single human suffers (except maybe from some colds).

As Habbaku notes, this was a very Peter Jackson sort of pointless-sacrifice-before-deus-ex-machina-saves-the-day sort of story.  The more I think about it, the worse it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 25, 2019, 03:40:03 AM
It'd be a lot harder for Arya to get close to the Night King if his army wasn't occupied.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: celedhring on May 25, 2019, 04:01:11 AM
It's the Night King who kindly gets closer himself...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on May 25, 2019, 05:23:42 AM
The main problem with the whole White Walker narrative is nothing makes sense unless Bran is so dangerous to the Night King that he has to be dealt with immediately and personally.
In RotK Aragorn uses both the Ring and the Palantir to drawn Sauron into battle on his own terms. But in GoT we see no indication of that danger to the Night King anywhere, so his actions make absolutely no sense.

The Army of the Undead could have simply turned south, wiped out White Harbor and -- leaving a detachment at Moat Caillin -- simply went on slaughtering throughout Westeros while the Army of Light froze their asses off and starved to death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 25, 2019, 06:55:00 AM
The last two seasons are best forgotten, at most used as coasters on table of life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tonitrus on May 25, 2019, 07:08:08 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 25, 2019, 06:55:00 AM
The last two seasons are best forgotten, at most used as coasters on table of life.

They prevent staining our fine wooden furniture?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 25, 2019, 07:26:50 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 25, 2019, 07:08:08 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 25, 2019, 06:55:00 AM
The last two seasons are best forgotten, at most used as coasters on table of life.

They prevent staining our fine wooden furniture?

I have none.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on May 25, 2019, 10:36:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 24, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
So Jon was brought back to life in a miracle in order to assassinate Dani?  The whole Azura Ahai thing as well as The Prince That Was Promised were just misdirection?

It also strikes me that all of the sacrifices of the troops and civilians who died in the Battle of Winterfell were completely unnecessary.  Everytbody runs south while Bran sits beneath the Weirwoord tree and Arya hides in the branches.  When the the Night King comes to kill Bran, Arya kills him, all the wights and ice dragon and White Walkers turn to ice and disintegrate, and not a single human suffers (except maybe from some colds).

As Habbaku notes, this was a very Peter Jackson sort of pointless-sacrifice-before-deus-ex-machina-saves-the-day sort of story.  The more I think about it, the worse it is.

I have to agree with those who say this finale season was written poorly. I didn't have a strong view on how the series should end up as I realized anything could happen in a story like this, but it ended up being almost implausible. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 25, 2019, 12:40:11 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on May 25, 2019, 03:40:03 AM
It'd be a lot harder for Arya to get close to the Night King if his army wasn't occupied.

His army wasn't occupied when she got closer in the show.  Lots of wights and White Walkers were right where Bran was (the scene where the Ironborn get wiped out took place around Bran).  My plan has her start close enough to Bran to kill the NK when he shows up to kill Bran.  She doesn't even have to teleport past the wights and White Walkers in my plan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 25, 2019, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 24, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
So Jon was brought back to life in a miracle in order to assassinate Dani?  The whole Azura Ahai thing as well as The Prince That Was Promised were just misdirection?
they've been known to be wrong before.
But yeah, that was silly to place so much importance on it...

But Jon's heroic (also, dumb) stand against the army of the dead was necessary so they would be distracted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 25, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2019, 09:04:17 PM

they've been known to be wrong before.
But yeah, that was silly to place so much importance on it...

The rule of Checkov's gun says don't introduce distractions.

QuoteBut Jon's heroic (also, dumb) stand against the army of the dead was necessary so they would be distracted.

What were they being distracted from?  And who are "they?"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 26, 2019, 08:54:09 AM
I'm increasingly coming to think that the night walker was created by the children as a weapon only to turn against them. The raven is another one of their weapon who he was determined to stop.
Perhaps he became so dedicated to the cause he forgot why he was trying to stop him in the first place and became unconcerned about human life.

Given the talked about prequel, I wonder how many of the unanswered threads were incompetent handling of trying to tantalise us to want to know the answers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 01:51:37 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
What were they being distracted from?  And who are "they?"

the white undead dudes on horses controlling the armies.  Or sort of.  I don't really know.

but it seemed obvious their number needed to be thinned and they needed to be occupied.  Arya was great, but she wasn't so great that she could bypass the entire army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 27, 2019, 02:16:05 AM
So am I the only one who actually liked it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 27, 2019, 02:28:22 AM
I thought the 8th season was flawed but worth watching. Actually an improvement over the 7th season.

Here's how I'd rate the episodes:

1: 5/10 Kind of a waste of an episode.
2: 9/10 Wonderful farewell to the characters. 1 point removed because it wasn't actually a farewell to most of the characters.
3: 1/10 Total crap. 1 point added because the darkness slightly obscured the incompetence of the writer, director, and showrunners.
4: 5/10 Waste of an episode. Dragon died stupidly.
5: 8/10 Beautiful effects and an important message that even good leaders will commit atrocities when unchecked.
6: 7/10 Decent wrap-up with only a handful of truly nonsensical decisions. 1 point added for remembering that Edmure exists. 1 point removed for unnecessarily humiliating Edmure.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 27, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
They got our expectations quite high from the first 6 seasons. Seasons 7-8 became normal television fare, rushed yet boring, and full of plot holes you could drive a truck through.

I give season 8 a 5/10, purely because it was beautiful cinematography and decent acting with the scripts they were given. I don't care about "it's GRRM's ending". What was presented to us on screen was stupid and made no sense in the context of the world they had previously built.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 27, 2019, 02:28:22 AM
I thought the 8th season was flawed but worth watching. Actually an improvement over the 7th season.

Here's how I'd rate the episodes:

1: 5/10 Kind of a waste of an episode.
2: 9/10 Wonderful farewell to the characters. 1 point removed because it wasn't actually a farewell to most of the characters.
3: 1/10 Total crap. 1 point added because the darkness slightly obscured the incompetence of the writer, director, and showrunners.
4: 5/10 Waste of an episode. Dragon died stupidly.
5: 8/10 Beautiful effects and an important message that even good leaders will commit atrocities when unchecked.
6: 7/10 Decent wrap-up with only a handful of truly nonsensical decisions. 1 point added for remembering that Edmure exists. 1 point removed for unnecessarily humiliating Edmure.


Edmure was a turn coat, ultimately.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Edmure was a turn coat, ultimately.

:huh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 27, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
They got our expectations quite high from the first 6 seasons. Seasons 7-8 became normal television fare, rushed yet boring, and full of plot holes you could drive a truck through.

I give season 8 a 5/10, purely because it was beautiful cinematography and decent acting with the scripts they were given. I don't care about "it's GRRM's ending". What was presented to us on screen was stupid and made no sense in the context of the world they had previously built.

The score was magnificent.  In fact, it is tough to chose between scoring and cinematography as the most outstanding feature of the series, but the first 25 minutes of the season 6 finale tips it in favor of the scoring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on May 27, 2019, 10:12:25 PM
It made sense to me, and it fit with the overall themes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Zoupa on May 28, 2019, 02:58:01 AM
We get it Raz.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 28, 2019, 03:08:09 AM
The ending made sense.
The execution was awful and made it seem dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 04:43:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 27, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
They got our expectations quite high from the first 6 seasons. Seasons 7-8 became normal television fare, rushed yet boring, and full of plot holes you could drive a truck through.

I give season 8 a 5/10, purely because it was beautiful cinematography and decent acting with the scripts they were given. I don't care about "it's GRRM's ending". What was presented to us on screen was stupid and made no sense in the context of the world they had previously built.

The score was magnificent.  In fact, it is tough to chose between scoring and cinematography as the most outstanding feature of the series, but the first 25 minutes of the season 6 finale tips it in favor of the scoring.

Score and cinematography were truly great, yeah. They were outstanding amongst really excellent technical work, all the people behind the scenes earned their paychecks several times over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on May 28, 2019, 06:30:41 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 04:43:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 27, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
They got our expectations quite high from the first 6 seasons. Seasons 7-8 became normal television fare, rushed yet boring, and full of plot holes you could drive a truck through.

I give season 8 a 5/10, purely because it was beautiful cinematography and decent acting with the scripts they were given. I don't care about "it's GRRM's ending". What was presented to us on screen was stupid and made no sense in the context of the world they had previously built.

The score was magnificent.  In fact, it is tough to chose between scoring and cinematography as the most outstanding feature of the series, but the first 25 minutes of the season 6 finale tips it in favor of the scoring.

Score and cinematography were truly great, yeah. They were outstanding amongst really excellent technical work, all the people behind the scenes earned their paychecks several times over.

With the exception of the writers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 06:31:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 28, 2019, 06:30:41 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 04:43:16 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 27, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
They got our expectations quite high from the first 6 seasons. Seasons 7-8 became normal television fare, rushed yet boring, and full of plot holes you could drive a truck through.

I give season 8 a 5/10, purely because it was beautiful cinematography and decent acting with the scripts they were given. I don't care about "it's GRRM's ending". What was presented to us on screen was stupid and made no sense in the context of the world they had previously built.

The score was magnificent.  In fact, it is tough to chose between scoring and cinematography as the most outstanding feature of the series, but the first 25 minutes of the season 6 finale tips it in favor of the scoring.

Score and cinematography were truly great, yeah. They were outstanding amongst really excellent technical work, all the people behind the scenes earned their paychecks several times over.

With the exception of the writers.

And the ones who had to take care of removing coffee cups and water bottles.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Edmure was a turn coat, ultimately.

:huh:
He surrendered his castle to the Frey and ordered the Blackfish to be captured.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 28, 2019, 09:52:54 AM
I believe the alternative, as far as he knew, was having his baby catapulted over the walls followed by an assault or long siege that would have killed them all (and extirpated House Tully) anyway. Edmure didn't know that Jaime's conscience might have gotten the better of him or that Dany was about to invade, so it wasn't an unreasonable decision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 28, 2019, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Edmure was a turn coat, ultimately.

:huh:
He surrendered his castle to the Frey and ordered the Blackfish to be captured.

:wacko: Your definition of turncoat needs some work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on May 28, 2019, 10:42:01 AM
He murdered Caesar.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 28, 2019, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 27, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
They got our expectations quite high from the first 6 seasons. Seasons 7-8 became normal television fare, rushed yet boring, and full of plot holes you could drive a truck through.

I give season 8 a 5/10, purely because it was beautiful cinematography and decent acting with the scripts they were given. I don't care about "it's GRRM's ending". What was presented to us on screen was stupid and made no sense in the context of the world they had previously built.

The score was magnificent.  In fact, it is tough to chose between scoring and cinematography as the most outstanding feature of the series, but the first 25 minutes of the season 6 finale tips it in favor of the scoring.
It has been fascinating listening to Ramin Djawadi grow and expand as a composer.  His work on Westworld has been magnificent as well.  A few thematic elements he tried out on Westworld seem to have emerged in Season 8's score, particularly the haunting piano dominated piece that accompanied the Night King's seeming victory during the Battle of Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2019, 11:57:11 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Edmure was a turn coat, ultimately.

:huh:
He surrendered his castle to the Frey and ordered the Blackfish to be captured.

Not willingly.  You DO know what "turncoat" means, don't you? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 28, 2019, 12:00:57 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 28, 2019, 11:04:32 AM
It has been fascinating listening to Ramin Djawadi grow and expand as a composer.  His work on Westworld has been magnificent as well.  A few thematic elements he tried out on Westworld seem to have emerged in Season 8's score, particularly the haunting piano dominated piece that accompanied the Night King's seeming victory during the Battle of Winterfell.

H had some funny stories towards the beginning of the series about trying to sneak flute music into the score and how Benioff and Weiss always caught him (they didn't want flutes because they thought flute scores were associated in peoples' minds with the LOTR movies).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Apparently Kit Harrington has been on rehab for the last month due to stress, mental exhaustion and alcohol abuse. It seems that he had been having plenty of personal troubles since the 6th season due to the increased focus of the show on him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 28, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Apparently Kit Harrington has been on rehab for the last month due to stress, mental exhaustion and alcohol abuse. It seems that he had been having plenty of personal troubles since the 6th season due to the increased focus of the show on him.

What? Now granted I know acting can be stressful but they have made only six episodes in the past two years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 08:54:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2019, 11:57:11 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 27, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 27, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Edmure was a turn coat, ultimately.

:huh:
He surrendered his castle to the Frey and ordered the Blackfish to be captured.

Not willingly.
From a certain point of view.  I doubt Walder Frey would have let Jaime catapult his grandkid.

Quote
You DO know what "turncoat" means, don't you? 
acting on behalf of the ennemy?

I guess he did surrender sort of willingly, in a situation that was still not desperate and being a prisoner, he should have relinquished the decision to surrender to the actual commander instead of exchanging the garrison surrender (and in all likelyhood, imprisonment for most men) for more agreeable confinement.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: PRC on May 28, 2019, 10:19:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Apparently Kit Harrington has been on rehab for the last month due to stress, mental exhaustion and alcohol abuse. It seems that he had been having plenty of personal troubles since the 6th season due to the increased focus of the show on him.

What? Now granted I know acting can be stressful but they have made only six episodes in the past two years.

The fame that comes with it all will have had an effect on his outlook along with the actual "work".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2019, 06:02:09 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 08:54:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2019, 11:57:11 AM
Not willingly.
From a certain point of view.  I doubt Walder Frey would have let Jaime catapult his grandkid.
He acted under duress. 

Quote
Quote
You DO know what "turncoat" means, don't you? 
acting on behalf of the ennemy?

No.  A turncoat is one who changes his or her allegiance to the opposing side.  That Frey threw him back in his cell tells us that he hadn't changed allegiance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 06:14:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Apparently Kit Harrington has been on rehab for the last month due to stress, mental exhaustion and alcohol abuse. It seems that he had been having plenty of personal troubles since the 6th season due to the increased focus of the show on him.

What? Now granted I know acting can be stressful but they have made only six episodes in the past two years.

Come on, each season is like filming several blockbusters in a row, and that's not even taking into account all the promotional work they have to do (and him even more being one of the main characters), as well as media scrutiny. I can perfectly believe that the guy finished the show completely burnt out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on May 29, 2019, 08:16:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 06:14:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Apparently Kit Harrington has been on rehab for the last month due to stress, mental exhaustion and alcohol abuse. It seems that he had been having plenty of personal troubles since the 6th season due to the increased focus of the show on him.

What? Now granted I know acting can be stressful but they have made only six episodes in the past two years.

Come on, each season is like filming several blockbusters in a row, and that's not even taking into account all the promotional work they have to do (and him even more being one of the main characters), as well as media scrutiny. I can perfectly believe that the guy finished the show completely burnt out.

Plus, he was developing and then starring in Gunpowder and has appeared in eight movies in the last five years.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Plus, he's kind of a chav and would be struggling with alcohol regardless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Plus, he's kind of a chav and would be struggling with alcohol regardless.

A chav? He comes from an aristocratic family (his father is a Baronet).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sophie Scholl on May 29, 2019, 11:18:15 AM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2019, 08:16:46 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 06:14:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 28, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 28, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Apparently Kit Harrington has been on rehab for the last month due to stress, mental exhaustion and alcohol abuse. It seems that he had been having plenty of personal troubles since the 6th season due to the increased focus of the show on him.

What? Now granted I know acting can be stressful but they have made only six episodes in the past two years.

Come on, each season is like filming several blockbusters in a row, and that's not even taking into account all the promotional work they have to do (and him even more being one of the main characters), as well as media scrutiny. I can perfectly believe that the guy finished the show completely burnt out.

Plus, he was developing and then starring in Gunpowder and has appeared in eight movies in the last five years.
Plus some theatre plays in London.  My friend and his (at the time) girlfriend caught him in Doctor Faustus, one of several plays he has done the past few years.  He's been very, very busy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on May 29, 2019, 11:59:15 AM
Success is no bar to mental illness.
A recent news story has been around the amount of footballers struggling with the same. Often hits at the close season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tonitrus on May 29, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Plus, he's kind of a chav and would be struggling with alcohol regardless.

A chav? He comes from an aristocratic family (his father is a Baronet).

Since when are royals not susceptible to substance abuse.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 12:29:58 PM
Huh. I heard about him getting a black eye from a fight at a McDonalds the day before he auditioned and assumed he was a chav. I guess it was a fight over hunting rights or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2019, 12:39:09 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Plus, he's kind of a chav and would be struggling with alcohol regardless.

A chav? He comes from an aristocratic family (his father is a Baronet).

And his wife has her own castle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2019, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 12:29:58 PM
Huh. I heard about him getting a black eye from a fight at a McDonalds the day before he auditioned and assumed he was a chav. I guess it was a fight over hunting rights or something.

Somebody didn't let him blow the horn when fox hunting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Habbaku on May 29, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2019, 12:39:09 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 29, 2019, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 29, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Plus, he's kind of a chav and would be struggling with alcohol regardless.

A chav? He comes from an aristocratic family (his father is a Baronet).

And his wife has her own castle.

Worse, she comes from a Covenanter family. Traitors, all!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on May 29, 2019, 01:04:43 PM
Well she is a wildling from north of the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on May 29, 2019, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2019, 06:02:09 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 28, 2019, 08:54:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 28, 2019, 11:57:11 AM
Not willingly.
From a certain point of view.  I doubt Walder Frey would have let Jaime catapult his grandkid.
He acted under duress. 

Quote
Quote
You DO know what "turncoat" means, don't you? 
acting on behalf of the ennemy?

No.  A turncoat is one who changes his or her allegiance to the opposing side.  That Frey threw him back in his cell tells us that he hadn't changed allegiance.
ha.  bad choice of words.  sorry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on March 02, 2020, 12:45:08 PM
So I binged this on my sick leave and have thoughts.

Turns out many of you expressed them already :P <_<

Although one additional point: I am furious at how much they ruined Tormund by turning him into a very broad comic character in the last season :ultra:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 02, 2020, 03:02:33 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 02, 2020, 12:45:08 PM
So I binged this on my sick leave and have thoughts.

Turns out many of you expressed them already :P <_<

Although one additional point: I am furious at how much they ruined Tormund by turning him into a very broad comic character in the last season :ultra:

Yes, badass Tormund was badass.  Tormund as Gimli was cringeworthy.  "Nobody tosses a dwar... er, Freefolk!"

What was the worst, though, was they built up this big last stand against the dead, said goodbye to all the supporting actors, and then not only didn't kill them off, but resolved the battle in a way that demonstrated that the battle was stupid and pointless from the start.  Nobody had to die except the Night King, as it turns out, and we never found out why he was so gosh-darned cranky!

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on March 04, 2020, 06:58:28 AM
Yeah.

I mean I think part of that is structural because the whole army of the dead/night king are this big almost environmental enemy - they're silent, so there's no explanation of motivation or reasoning etc. That makes them really threatening in the early seasons but sort of makes resolving the threat more difficult. I feel if they'd maybe killed one of his deputies in an earlier episode and had that have an effect it might have worked better.

As I mentioned I think there's a pacing issue with the whole night army because the story in Westeros advances so much quicker than the story north of the wall that it sort of felt like they rushed to the end of that because they'd run out Westeros (and maybe Dany's) story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Tamas on March 04, 2020, 07:44:51 AM
The writers got the ending from Martin but had no idea whatsoever how to get there. But, the series was super-successful by the time Martin stopped carrying their asses, and they were paid handsomely anyways, so they just winged it and threw the last two seasons together.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 04, 2020, 07:54:09 AM
I do hope Martin had something less dumb in mind for the winterfell crypts
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 05, 2020, 08:23:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 04, 2020, 07:44:51 AM
The writers got the ending from Martin but had no idea whatsoever how to get there. But, the series was super-successful by the time Martin stopped carrying their asses, and they were paid handsomely anyways, so they just winged it and threw the last two seasons together.
Had they been given 10 years to think about it, maybe they could have come up with some better ideas :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 05, 2020, 08:24:59 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 05, 2020, 08:23:50 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 04, 2020, 07:44:51 AM
The writers got the ending from Martin but had no idea whatsoever how to get there. But, the series was super-successful by the time Martin stopped carrying their asses, and they were paid handsomely anyways, so they just winged it and threw the last two seasons together.
Had they been given 10 years to think about it, maybe they could have come with some better ideas :P

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on March 07, 2020, 09:18:03 PM
The ending of the show ruined the series for me. I felt it was lame and poorly done, no matter if it was Martin's idea or the studio's. I felt they over did it with how what was done with Daenerys, even if it was Martin's idea and the way the book (when done) will have it. There had to be better ideas on how and who would take the throne, not all of a sudden Bran gets appointed after having little interaction. Martin/studio could have made a case for John being King or for Dany getting the throne. After all Dany's story, coming from another land, all her work and accomplishments but it all comes to naught.

They also botched the battles at Winterfell. Why were the trebuchets outside the walls? And why did the horsemen all charge unsupported into an enemy they knew little about? Should have waited to flank the enemy after the battle joined, or something like that. After the great job usually done with battles that all was disappointing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 07, 2020, 11:14:55 PM
Quote from: KRonn on March 07, 2020, 09:18:03 PM
The ending of the show ruined the series for me. I felt it was lame and poorly done, no matter if it was Martin's idea or the studio's. I felt they over did it with how what was done with Daenerys, even if it was Martin's idea and the way the book (when done) will have it. There had to be better ideas on how and who would take the throne, not all of a sudden Bran gets appointed after having little interaction. Martin/studio could have made a case for John being King or for Dany getting the throne. After all Dany's story, coming from another land, all her work and accomplishments but it all comes to naught.

They also botched the battles at Winterfell. Why were the trebuchets outside the walls? And why did the horsemen all charge unsupported into an enemy they knew little about? Should have waited to flank the enemy after the battle joined, or something like that. After the great job usually done with battles that all was disappointing.

All of that is true, but trivial, in my mind, compared to the real problems:

1.  The Night King turned out to be a complete McGuffin.  Why did he even exist?  He had no motivations, no plan, except to be "the big bad."  All the stuff about his origins had zero point or consequences.

2.  The battle at Winterfell was completely unnecessary.  No one needed to die.  Put Arya in the tree, Bran at the bottom of the tree, and have Arya assassinate the Night King when he came to kill Bran.  All of the extraneous death and sacrifice was meaningless because the NK could easily be killed by stealth ninja Arya, and his entire army died with him.  Bran could easily have known this from his ability to know everything through time.

3.  Dani going insane and wiping out the city was completely unnecessary for the ending they had planned, was way over the top, and was contrary to her entire arc to that point.  Jon could still have felt forced to kill her just based on the fact that she was proposing unending war and would threaten his family.  It would have been far more poignant a decision for Jon if she was not bonkers and clearly needing to be put down.  She could have been true to her arc, and he to his, and the audience could have been weeping at the idea that he was forced by concern for his stubborn family to kill the woman he still loved and honored.

4.  Bran's story, after so much investment in time and show budget, had no point.  The fact that he was made king was ludicrous and the claim that it was because he suffered was entirely absurd given what others had gone through.  Bran never consciously made a single sacrifice; all the bad things that happened to him were the results not of his choices, but the choices of others.  if they were really choosing the monarch based on the criteria they claimed, Meera Reed would have been crowned.

5.  Jon's parentage made zero difference, yet was made the central mystery of the show.  If he had just been Ned's bastard, thing would have played out exactly the same.  It would have been trivially difficult to show Varys actually working behind Jon's back to make make Jon king, and being very effective at it, and so set up Jon's conflict of interest (he loves Dani and supports her bid for the throne, but his obligations to his vassals and allies, and the desire to avoid the impending civil war if an outsider lie Dani takes the throne, would have forced him towards taking the throne himself).  A huge buildup that ended with a fart.

5.  Clegainebowl was pure fan service and had no impact on the story at all.  All that buildup for a fight that no one else would ever even know happened.

I could go on, but you get the idea.  The last two seasons didn't just end limply, they betrayed all the previous seasons by making them worthless to the final resolution.  I liken it to the ROTK batle of the Pelennor Fields and batle of the Black gates, wherein all the heroes would have lived and been happy had they just stayed in bed and let Aragorn's army of the dead trivially wipe out every orc, troll, and oliphant  in existence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 08, 2020, 12:39:48 AM
The Clegaine thing was disappointing.  I suppose that might have been the point, Sandor had wasted his life wanting revenge and only to discover that his brother was already dead.  Still it wasn't satisfying.

I also agree that the Night King was a bust.  Sometimes giving a villain no motive at all can be effective.  For instance in "No Country for Old Men", We never did find out why the hitman was a monster, and it worked.  It made him scary. He was like a force of nature.  The Night King actually was a force of nature, but he wasn't scary.  He just sort of happened.  It didn't help that he looked silly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Solmyr on March 08, 2020, 02:09:16 AM
I have a suspicion that Martin was testing, which things in the ending would be badly received by fans. Now he can change the books to remove anything that would make the fans angry. :D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 08, 2020, 02:31:47 AM
Ending, what ending?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on March 08, 2020, 05:10:37 AM
I don't think Martin cares about angry fans.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: KRonn on March 08, 2020, 12:05:32 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 07, 2020, 11:14:55 PM

I could go on, but you get the idea.  The last two seasons didn't just end limply, they betrayed all the previous seasons by making them worthless to the final resolution.  I liken it to the ROTK batle of the Pelennor Fields and batle of the Black gates, wherein all the heroes would have lived and been happy had they just stayed in bed and let Aragorn's army of the dead trivially wipe out every orc, troll, and oliphant  in existence.

Yep, good points and fleshes out how poorly the story line was put together. And if Martin ends it in a similar way then IMO his great saga suffers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 09, 2020, 12:31:20 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 07, 2020, 11:14:55 PM
All of that is true, but trivial, in my mind, compared to the real problems:

1.  The Night King turned out to be a complete McGuffin.  Why did he even exist?  He had no motivations, no plan, except to be "the big bad."  All the stuff about his origins had zero point or consequences.

2.  The battle at Winterfell was completely unnecessary.  No one needed to die.  Put Arya in the tree, Bran at the bottom of the tree, and have Arya assassinate the Night King when he came to kill Bran.  All of the extraneous death and sacrifice was meaningless because the NK could easily be killed by stealth ninja Arya, and his entire army died with him.  Bran could easily have known this from his ability to know everything through time.

3.  Dani going insane and wiping out the city was completely unnecessary for the ending they had planned, was way over the top, and was contrary to her entire arc to that point.  Jon could still have felt forced to kill her just based on the fact that she was proposing unending war and would threaten his family.  It would have been far more poignant a decision for Jon if she was not bonkers and clearly needing to be put down.  She could have been true to her arc, and he to his, and the audience could have been weeping at the idea that he was forced by concern for his stubborn family to kill the woman he still loved and honored.

4.  Bran's story, after so much investment in time and show budget, had no point.  The fact that he was made king was ludicrous and the claim that it was because he suffered was entirely absurd given what others had gone through.  Bran never consciously made a single sacrifice; all the bad things that happened to him were the results not of his choices, but the choices of others.  if they were really choosing the monarch based on the criteria they claimed, Meera Reed would have been crowned.

5.  Jon's parentage made zero difference, yet was made the central mystery of the show.  If he had just been Ned's bastard, thing would have played out exactly the same.  It would have been trivially difficult to show Varys actually working behind Jon's back to make make Jon king, and being very effective at it, and so set up Jon's conflict of interest (he loves Dani and supports her bid for the throne, but his obligations to his vassals and allies, and the desire to avoid the impending civil war if an outsider lie Dani takes the throne, would have forced him towards taking the throne himself).  A huge buildup that ended with a fart.

5.  Clegainebowl was pure fan service and had no impact on the story at all.  All that buildup for a fight that no one else would ever even know happened.

I could go on, but you get the idea.  The last two seasons didn't just end limply, they betrayed all the previous seasons by making them worthless to the final resolution.  I liken it to the ROTK batle of the Pelennor Fields and batle of the Black gates, wherein all the heroes would have lived and been happy had they just stayed in bed and let Aragorn's army of the dead trivially wipe out every orc, troll, and oliphant  in existence.

half disagree with point 2, disagree on point 3, agree with the rest.  And disagree with your take on ROTK as well :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 09, 2020, 01:16:27 AM
There were logical reasons for Bran to be named King, just not the reasons mentioned in the episode.

Other than that, I agree with grumbler's points.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 09, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 09, 2020, 01:16:27 AM
There were logical reasons for Bran to be named King, just not the reasons mentioned in the episode.

Other than that, I agree with grumbler's points.
about #2 on his list:
There was a need for a diversion.  The wights needed to be occupied so the Night king would go on mostly alone (meaning, only with a few soldiers) so that Arya could surprise him.  As you have seen with Jon Snow trying to kill him, it does not work that well when there's thousands of soldiers surrounding him that you need to kill just to get to him, totally exhausted.

There was really a need for a battle at Winterfell.

How that battle was made though, I agree with everyone it was totally stupid.


About point #3: It's been foreshadowed since the begginning of the series that she wasn't exactly "gentle" and she had mood swings.  Even in the last season you could see how she was: a true leader would have waited for her troops to recover after a large battle, then launched her assault fully prepared on King's Landing.  She would have had scouts to survey the area, notice ships and high caliber-high precision ballistats on them ;)

Again, it was badly done, totally rushed, but there's nothing extraordinary or surprising about how it ends with her character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on March 09, 2020, 04:45:32 PM
They set up for a long time the question of how ruthless Dani was or could be. That question became totally irrelevant when she suddenly channeled Lt Calley all psycho for no known purpose when the battle was already won.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 09, 2020, 05:02:47 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 09, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 09, 2020, 01:16:27 AM
There were logical reasons for Bran to be named King, just not the reasons mentioned in the episode.

Other than that, I agree with grumbler's points.
about #2 on his list:
There was a need for a diversion.  The wights needed to be occupied so the Night king would go on mostly alone (meaning, only with a few soldiers) so that Arya could surprise him.  As you have seen with Jon Snow trying to kill him, it does not work that well when there's thousands of soldiers surrounding him that you need to kill just to get to him, totally exhausted.

Not sure how that follows - there was no diversion with the Night King approached - the battle was over.  All his commanders were with him surrounded by their army - he walked forward from that.  Just as he would have if there had been no battle and the good guys just left Bran by the tree with Arya waiting in the wings.


QuoteAbout point #3: It's been foreshadowed since the begginning of the series that she wasn't exactly "gentle" and she had mood swings.  Even in the last season you could see how she was: a true leader would have waited for her troops to recover after a large battle, then launched her assault fully prepared on King's Landing.  She would have had scouts to survey the area, notice ships and high caliber-high precision ballistats on them ;)

I think you are missing Grumbler's point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 09, 2020, 10:48:34 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 09, 2020, 05:02:47 PM
Not sure how that follows - there was no diversion with the Night King approached - the battle was over.  All his commanders were with him surrounded by their army - he walked forward from that.  Just as he would have if there had been no battle and the good guys just left Bran by the tree with Arya waiting in the wings.
Is it easier to sneak on 10 people or 10 000 people?

It's the same principle as Aragon in front of the black gates, they needed to have Sauron's eye focused on them, not on Frodo or he would fail.

The battle is till raging on, they're still fighting the whights.  The Night's king attention is distracted because there is a battle going on, and he thinks he's about to win.

Again, it could and should have been handled a lot better, but to say having a battle at Winterfell was pointless, I disagree with that.  The assassin needed to sneak on the Nightking, she can't do that if she has to fight a thousand of undead corpses like Jon Snow.

Quote
I think you are missing Grumbler's point.
The way I understand it is that he thinks it's stupid because Dani suddenly, out of nowhere, snapped.  I'm arguing it wasn't out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 10, 2020, 05:26:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 09, 2020, 10:48:34 PM

Is it easier to sneak on 10 people or 10 000 people?

Arya didn't "sneak on" anyone. She left the library, and then materialized next to the Night King.  In the not-stupid version I propose, she doesn't have to sneak or dematerialize/materialize at all - she's already in the tree.

QuoteIt's the same principle as Aragon in front of the black gates, they needed to have Sauron's eye focused on them, not on Frodo or he would fail.

I have no idea what "principle" here is "the same."  In RotK, Aragorn was pretending that he had the ring, so that Sauron would go all-out against him to retake it (though Jackson never understood that, so Aragorn's - and Sauron's - actions in the movie were stupid).

QuoteThe battle is till raging on, they're still fighting the whights.  The Night's king attention is distracted because there is a battle going on, and he thinks he's about to win.

There's no evidence the Night King was distracted in any way.  The battle was in the pursuit phase, and the night king and his lieutenants were focussed on Bran.

QuoteAgain, it could and should have been handled a lot better, but to say having a battle at Winterfell was pointless, I disagree with that.  The assassin needed to sneak on the Nightking, she can't do that if she has to fight a thousand of undead corpses like Jon Snow.

Again, she didn't "sneak on" anyone, and if she's in the tree, she just has to jump.  In the show, the wights are used to kill Bran's escort.  If there was no escort, the wights would have had no role.

QuoteThe way I understand it is that he thinks it's stupid because Dani suddenly, out of nowhere, snapped.  I'm arguing it wasn't out of nowhere.

Every major character had "mood swings" and yet we would have been pissed off had Jon, or Tyrion, or Sansa suddenly decided to wipe out an entire city that had just surrendered.  Tyrion did kill Shea and his father, but immediately regretted it.  Dani killed a million people and just went SS with her costume.

But my larger point was that Dani's heel turn was not only dumb, but counter-productive to the kind of story this was.  The writers could have had Jon forced into killing Dani without it, because she could have not gone insane and she'd still present him with the conundrum of what to do when his love wants to war forever and is going to attack his own family because they won't bend the knee.  The show would have been a lot better and the ending much more bittersweet had Jon's decision not been so easy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: viper37 on March 10, 2020, 02:09:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 10, 2020, 05:26:38 AM
Arya didn't "sneak on" anyone. She left the library, and then materialized next to the Night King.  In the not-stupid version I propose, she doesn't have to sneak or dematerialize/materialize at all - she's already in the tree.
about 10 minutes passed between the time she left the library and the time she was in the forest.  Long enough time to run over there.

Quote
I have no idea what "principle" here is "the same."  In RotK, Aragorn was pretending that he had the ring, so that Sauron would go all-out against him to retake it (though Jackson never understood that, so Aragorn's - and Sauron's - actions in the movie were stupid).
There's no ring here.  Only an army defending the 3-eyed crow.

By that same logice, the Night King could simply have bypassed the army and went straight for Bran.

Quote
There's no evidence the Night King was distracted in any way.  The battle was in the pursuit phase, and the night king and his lieutenants were focussed on Bran.

Again, she didn't "sneak on" anyone, and if she's in the tree, she just has to jump.  In the show, the wights are used to kill Bran's escort.  If there was no escort, the wights would have had no role.
She sneak passed everyone and got into striking distance to the Night King.

Had there been 10 000 whights there, she couldn't have done it.  So there was a need for a battle.

Quote
But my larger point was that Dani's heel turn was not only dumb, but counter-productive to the kind of story this was.  The writers could have had Jon forced into killing Dani without it, because she could have not gone insane and she'd still present him with the conundrum of what to do when his love wants to war forever and is going to attack his own family because they won't bend the knee. 
Dani was always cruel to her perceived ennemies.  What's problematic is that it was too subtle during the last 2 seasons.  But I wouldn't say burning people alive is "nice".

QuoteThe show would have been a lot better and the ending much more bittersweet had Jon's decision not been so easy.
Nah, that part was fine.  It wouldn't have been bittersweet had he killed her for any other reason.  That's the only part that was good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2020, 02:36:08 PM
QuoteDani was always cruel to her perceived ennemies.  What's problematic is that it was too subtle during the last 2 seasons.  But I wouldn't say burning people alive is "nice".

Not really. If anything she politically screws up by trying to be too nice...at least in the books. I mean I guess compared to 21st century hippies she is cruel, in the world of ASoIaF she isn't by any reasonable comparison to her contemporaries. Again, though, that is in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: HVC on March 10, 2020, 02:38:32 PM
Was the crucifying in the books or only the tv show?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2020, 03:25:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 10, 2020, 02:38:32 PM
Was the crucifying in the books or only the tv show?

Oh that happened but there is a context and she leaves lots of them alive, which then leads to a rebellion against her rule. She talks tough and takes hostages to stop the rebels but then cannot bring herself to actually hurt them.

But she leaves the slavers and nobles alive in the other cities and they march on Meereen forcing her to compromise.

Basically her soft heartedness makes everything a clusterfuck. I have seen no evidence she is especially cruel, quite the contrary she is trying to be different and do the right thing in a very unjust world. Now maybe all this shit eventually teaches her to be a monster but that has not happened yet.

This is in addition to her always trying to protect people the world normally preys upon going back to Game of Thrones (the book)

So, again, the whole idea she is especially cruel is laughable....at least in the books. I haven't watched much of the show, at least past season 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 10, 2020, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2020, 03:25:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 10, 2020, 02:38:32 PM
Was the crucifying in the books or only the tv show?

Oh that happened but there is a context and she leaves lots of them alive, which then leads to a rebellion against her rule. She talks tough and takes hostages to stop the rebels but then cannot bring herself to actually hurt them.

But she leaves the slavers and nobles alive in the other cities and they march on Meereen forcing her to compromise.

Basically her soft heartedness makes everything a clusterfuck. I have seen no evidence she is especially cruel, quite the contrary she is trying to be different and do the right thing in a very unjust world. Now maybe all this shit eventually teaches her to be a monster but that has not happened yet.

This is in addition to her always trying to protect people the world normally preys upon going back to Game of Thrones (the book)

So, again, the whole idea she is especially cruel is laughable....at least in the books. I haven't watched much of the show, at least past season 2.

It was the same way in the show - hence many little girls being named after her irl.

I wonder how many people have applied for name changes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 10, 2020, 07:08:53 PM
Quote from: viper37 on March 10, 2020, 02:09:17 PM
about 10 minutes passed between the time she left the library and the time she was in the forest.  Long enough time to run over there.
I have no idea how you are judging time in the episode, but so what?

QuoteThere's no ring here.  Only an army defending the 3-eyed crow.

You clearly are missing my point entirely.  I'll just leave that there, since I don't think it is explicable to you.

QuoteBy that same logice, the Night King could simply have bypassed the army and went straight for Bran.

yes.  that's the point.  The entire episode leading up to the confrontation between Bran and the Night King was unnecessary.  Clearly, the Night King's flunkies couldn't kill Bran, or they'd have done it long before the NK arrived there.  So the only confrontation that mattered was between NK and Bran+Arya.  Everyone else (including wights and White Walkers) could have been a million miles away as far as that confrontation was concerned.

QuoteShe sneak passed everyone and got into striking distance to the Night King.

Had there been 10 000 whights there, she couldn't have done it.  So there was a need for a battle.

The show demonstrated differently.  Every good guy bar Bran in the vicinity was dead after the NK killed Greyjoy, and it made no difference.  Arya didn't sneak past anyone.  She just materialized.  In my plan, no bullshit plot armor was needed for her.  She would be in the tree, ready to jump down on the NK and then kill him exactly as in the show.  No one else was needed.

QuoteDani was always cruel to her perceived ennemies.  What's problematic is that it was too subtle during the last 2 seasons.  But I wouldn't say burning people alive is "nice".

I have no idea what argument this is trying to advance.  We know that something hit by dragonfire explodes (see Dani's attack on King's landing), so getting burned by dragonfire is the equivalent of being shot with, say, a 105mm shell.  It's quick.  Jon, on the other hand, executed his enemies by putting a noose around their neck and kicking away the supports, so he could watch them dangle and choke to death (when he didn't give them to his sister so they could be eaten alive by dogs).  Dani didn't kill any kids before King's Landing.  Jon did.

So, you are making an argument for Jon, not Dani, to take a heel turn.  That would have been a terrific ending.  But it doesn't support your approval of the show's ending.

QuoteNah, that part was fine.  It wouldn't have been bittersweet had he killed her for any other reason.  That's the only part that was good.

I disagree, for reasons I have fully laid out, and you haven't come close to refuting.  The reason he killed her was bullshit ad hoc plotting that wrecked the premise of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 10, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2020, 03:25:47 PM
Oh that happened but there is a context and she leaves lots of them alive, which then leads to a rebellion against her rule. She talks tough and takes hostages to stop the rebels but then cannot bring herself to actually hurt them.

But she leaves the slavers and nobles alive in the other cities and they march on Meereen forcing her to compromise.

Basically her soft heartedness makes everything a clusterfuck. I have seen no evidence she is especially cruel, quite the contrary she is trying to be different and do the right thing in a very unjust world. Now maybe all this shit eventually teaches her to be a monster but that has not happened yet.

This is in addition to her always trying to protect people the world normally preys upon going back to Game of Thrones (the book)

So, again, the whole idea she is especially cruel is laughable....at least in the books. I haven't watched much of the show, at least past season 2. 

Exactly.  She only crucifies the ones that have tortured their slaves, and fails to take into account that the others are just as opposed to her as the ones who tortured others.

She is motivated by the best of ideals, which makes the heel turn so unbelievable.

The whole "we will wage war until everyone is freed" bit at the end of the show is in character, and having an ending where Jon has to kill her because she is too good even for him in that sense would have been an outstanding way to off her and end the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2020, 08:33:18 PM
The question is whether they wrote it the crappy easy way because they were lazy as writers or out of contempt for an audience they thought incapable of grasping the slightest of subtleties.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Berkut on March 10, 2020, 09:14:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2020, 08:33:18 PM
The question is whether they wrote it the crappy easy way because they were lazy as writers or out of contempt for an audience they thought incapable of grasping the slightest of subtleties.

Yes
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 10, 2020, 09:50:14 PM
They were being lazy in either case.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: crazy canuck on March 10, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 10, 2020, 09:14:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2020, 08:33:18 PM
The question is whether they wrote it the crappy easy way because they were lazy as writers or out of contempt for an audience they thought incapable of grasping the slightest of subtleties.

Yes

:lol:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: saskganesh on March 13, 2020, 04:15:50 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 10, 2020, 08:33:18 PM
The question is whether they wrote it the crappy easy way because they were lazy as writers or out of contempt for an audience they thought incapable of grasping the slightest of subtleties.
yea. They were in a hurry to get to a Star Wars contract, which is a shit show of a franchise anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on March 13, 2020, 04:32:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2020, 02:36:08 PM
QuoteDani was always cruel to her perceived ennemies.  What's problematic is that it was too subtle during the last 2 seasons.  But I wouldn't say burning people alive is "nice".

Not really. If anything she politically screws up by trying to be too nice...at least in the books. I mean I guess compared to 21st century hippies she is cruel, in the world of ASoIaF she isn't by any reasonable comparison to her contemporaries. Again, though, that is in the books.
Yeah on the TV, having binged it while stuck at home it's not a huge shift. I agree burning a town after it's surrendered is a bit far, but I'd say maybe every 2-3 episodes there's something where you're a bit like :eeesh: but she normally gets talked out of it by someone (and on a dragon its herself alone, or only with her dragon/power). It's not cruelty, it's normally vengeance (in the series).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 13, 2020, 05:30:54 PM
I think the problem of the that many people have with the ending of the show is that there were three main plots:  The Rise of Daenerys Targaryen in the east, the civil war in Westeros and the White Walker threat to the north.  The first and second plot lines merge together fairly well, but the third one doesn't fit well with the rest.  The first and second storylines were easily the most interesting, and I think they were the main reason why the show had wide appeal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Sheilbh on March 13, 2020, 05:33:10 PM
Maybe in the early seasons - I was bored at Daenerys's challenges of governing post-slavery society, while the white walker plot picked up and got more engaging (but too late in my view so a lot of ground had to be covered very quickly in the end).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2020, 05:35:28 PM
This thread is so 2010s retro.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Josquius on March 13, 2020, 06:23:49 PM
Dany reaching the west was a natural outcome of her plot.
The trouble then was the north and the south represented two totally different paths which didn't really have much to do with each other.
The north leapt way too quickly from a free folk and nights watch problem to an all the realms problem.
More logical would have been a reversed order I think. Both for danys plot, her character, and overall pacing and logic.
The white walkers were the big threat. The serious danger.
Cersei should have been on the ropes by then. Her power was spent. The battle for kings landing was way too much of a video game style final battle where miraculously your enemy fields it's strongest force whilst more realistically if should have been the battle of Berlin. Which Incidentally would have made for a more sensible heel turn for dani.
Stuff in the south sorted the people then realise they missed their chance to bite the walker threat in the bud and have to move north.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Razgovory on March 14, 2020, 01:16:32 PM
Martin really liked the "Scouring of the Shire", in Return of the King and wanted to do something similar.  The problem is that it the "Scouring of the Shire" sucked.  It's antclimatic for the evil wizard to run off, form a street gang and tyrannize people who are only the size of kindergartners.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Oexmelin on March 14, 2020, 04:58:03 PM
I've always liked The Scouring of the Shire. It is intended to be anticlimactic, if the climax is only the destruction of the ring. There are two narratives intertwined in Lord of the Rings: the epic narrative, that concern greater-than-life heroes; the Edwardian tale, that is about the value of banal, ordinary happiness. Its constant presence in the story magnifies the epic, which you admire even more because it's out of your own ordinary. The Scouring of the Shire is the closing of *that* tale, about the sort of mediocre evil - but no less evil - we are liable to confront. I like it even more because it addresses what so many Hollywood movies brush aside: the aftermath. While it is a three quarter concession to the happy end (everything is *almost* right), the price paid by Frodo, and by the world generally, cannot easily be addressed by a big party at the end.

The problem with Game of Thrones, is that it was intended almost as the reverse: a secular, nasty world embroiled in socio-political intrigue that was progressively "re-enchanted". If Martin wanted a "Scouring of the Shire" type of ending, it needed to be bleak (it's why I thought Daenerys should have won, and her dragons died). Hope for an enchanted world may indeed have continued with a couple of exiled characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: The Brain on March 14, 2020, 05:18:22 PM
Well we have Arya Columbus. That's pretty fucking bleak.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: Iormlund on March 14, 2020, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 14, 2020, 04:58:03 PM
I've always liked The Scouring of the Shire.

I did as well, mainly because it showed the growth (hehe) the characters had experienced during their travels.

If anything, the last season of GoT is an example of how to destroy the characters you've been building.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones begins....
Post by: grumbler on March 14, 2020, 06:29:01 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on March 14, 2020, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 14, 2020, 04:58:03 PM
I've always liked The Scouring of the Shire.

I did as well, mainly because it showed the growth (hehe) the characters had experienced during their travels.

If anything, the last season of GoT is an example of how to destroy the characters you've been building.

Agreed.  The Scouring of the Shire was the Quest to Destroy the Ring brought down to a human scale (hehe).   The consequences of the actions of the heroes were small by world standards, but bigger to them (bar Frodo) than the Quest itself.

The equivalent in GoT would be that Dani doesn't go crazy, but her threat (which, it must be remembered, included the dangerous Unsullied and the murderous Dothraki) to the continuance of Westerosi life (as they know it) forces Jon and Tyrion to embark on the Scouring of King's Landing, with Jon forced to kill Dani even though he doesn't want to.

The insanity of Danarys made this too easy and pat to be at all satisfying, let alone the fact that Jon not only didn't pay much of an emotional price for killing her, but got to live happily ever after rather than feeling compelled, like Frodo, to accept death ("Gone West" was WW1 British Army slang for "dead," as in "where's Bill?"  "Gone West").