So, the Catalan parliament has passed the law governing an independence referendum, as I write this, the Catalan government is signing the decree calling for the referendum to be held this coming October 1st. The non-nationalist opposition (roughly half of parliament, separatists have a slim majority) have walked out during the vote.
Tomorrow they will pass the law governing the transitional period should the "yes" win (and it will win, since there's no participation threshold in the law, 50%+1 is enough, and the opposition has called to boycott the referendum).
All of this is obviously illegal, and the Spanish Constitutional court will void it all tomorrow. The Catalan government has already said that it will ignore the ruling and proceed with the vote, putting itself in open revolt.
This is not going to end nicely.
Meh.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to money, and unlike Basques Catalonian politicians have no real control over taxes (which is why they've orchestrated this charade). All the central government has to do is freeze transfers and they are fucked. What are they going to do, create new taxes? Issue IOUs?
That might've been true if it was still the previous guys (Mas & Co.). But the guys now running the government? They are true believers. Nope, they are going all the way.
It's not like cutting cash transfers is going to make much of a difference in just a few weeks, anyway. Too late for that. It's full head-on crash.
Just wait until the police, nurses, doctors, teachers and all the rest stop receiving a salary and cannot afford to pay their mortgages.
The EU should implement a rule where breakaway states can't join the union. it'd stop this stupid stuff.
Will the traitors hang?
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
The EU should implement a rule where breakaway states can't join the union. it'd stop this stupid stuff.
It doesn't really need to. Accession is a matter where all countries have veto.
If Catalonia is ever going to be independent and join the EU, it needs to acquire independence not using confrontation, but by reaching an agreement with the rest of Spain.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:20:39 PM
Just wait until the police, nurses, doctors, teachers and all the rest stop receiving a salary and cannot afford to pay their mortgages.
That's fine, but they'll declare independence before the next salary is due :P
I'm only half-joking. Part of the separatist strategy is playing with dates very tightly (it's not like they care that there's a proper campaign or debate), so that the Spanish gov doesn't have actual time to do some of the stuff that they could do. For example there's no material time to approve the suspension of the Catalan autonomy before the referendum, and if they cut cash transfers it will take at least 3 months before the Catalan government has liquidity problems.
So what?
Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.
Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.
Arrest them for treason?
Quote from: Zanza on September 06, 2017, 03:38:40 PM
Arrest them for treason?
It's not a crime to call for a referendum, illegal or otherwise. To use public funds to pay for it though ...
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:36:42 PM
So what?
Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.
Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.
When you have 40-50% of the population voting for parties willing to run roughshod through constitutional and democratic principles in order to achieve MUH FREEDOM, you can bet that unilateral independence is going to have an effect. Sure, long term or even mid term, unilateral independence is not viable, but you can bet that lots of damage can be done in the interim. And I don't mean just metaphorical damage.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:39:32 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 06, 2017, 03:38:40 PM
Arrest them for treason?
It's not a crime to call for a referendum, illegal or otherwise. To use public funds to pay for it though ...
Declaring independence might be a crime though? It would be a crime here as soon as there was any force behind it.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:31:07 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 06, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
The EU should implement a rule where breakaway states can't join the union. it'd stop this stupid stuff.
It doesn't really need to. Accession is a matter where all countries have veto.
If Catalonia is ever going to be independent and join the EU, it needs to acquire independence not using confrontation, but by reaching an agreement with the rest of Spain.
Yeah, but make it explicit. People are delusional (look at brexit).
Well that's going to be a bit of a cluster fuck. Good thing it's happening now. 2017 was shaping up to be pretty uneventful until now, politically speaking....
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:36:42 PM
So what?
Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.
Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.
When you have 40-50% of the population voting for parties willing to run roughshod through constitutional and democratic principles in order to achieve MUH FREEDOM, you can bet that unilateral independence is going to have an effect. Sure, long term or even mid term, unilateral independence is not viable, but you can bet that lots of damage can be done in the interim. And I don't mean just metaphorical damage.
Very true. And yeah, I know there's a big separatist segment. Hell, all my gf's coworkers will vote for independence. One wonders if they realize that their employer has offices all over Spain their jobs could be relocated to if shit hits the fan (most likely Madrid or Seville).
Quote from: Zanza on September 06, 2017, 03:50:08 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:39:32 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 06, 2017, 03:38:40 PM
Arrest them for treason?
It's not a crime to call for a referendum, illegal or otherwise. To use public funds to pay for it though ...
Declaring independence might be a crime though? It would be a crime here as soon as there was any force behind it.
Calling and holding an independence vote is not a crime in itself, rather the necessary steps you have to take in order to call it (i.e. be in contempt of the Constitutional Court).
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:36:42 PM
So what?
Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.
Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.
When you have 40-50% of the population voting for parties willing to run roughshod through constitutional and democratic principles in order to achieve MUH FREEDOM, you can bet that unilateral independence is going to have an effect. Sure, long term or even mid term, unilateral independence is not viable, but you can bet that lots of damage can be done in the interim. And I don't mean just metaphorical damage.
Very true. And yeah, I know there's a big separatist segment. Hell, all my gf's coworkers will vote for independence. One wonders if they realize that their employer has offices all over Spain their jobs could be relocated to if shit hits the fan (most likely Madrid or Seville).
Yeah, the naivete of not facing the consequences of their vote is very brexitesque. But it will make them feel good and stick it to The Man in Madrid!
What the hell is wrong with people?
Why would the holding of a referendum be illegal? That sounds like part of the problem right there.
Quote from: Valmy on September 06, 2017, 04:12:04 PM
What the hell is wrong with people?
London independence! :swiss:
Quote from: Barrister on September 06, 2017, 05:04:34 PM
Why would the holding of a referendum be illegal?
No reason. That is why it isn't. It has been stated over and over again that there is nothing illegal besides maybe an abuse of funds.
It's illegal, just not a "crime".
The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any single constituent unit.
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
It's illegal, just not a crime.
The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any constituent unit.
The declaring of independence is illegal. Having the referendum isn't...isn't that right?
Quote from: Valmy on September 06, 2017, 06:28:02 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
It's illegal, just not a crime.
The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any constituent unit.
The declaring of independence is illegal. Having the referendum isn't...isn't that right?
Let's see:
a) A private actor can hold one, and there's been plenty at a local level. Just don't expect them to be binding...
b) The regional government can't. They can only hold referenda on stuff they have devolved powers in. "Should we divide this or that county", "should we segregate this town". (to cite some examples of actual referenda). Since they don't have the power to declare independence, the referendum is henceforth not allowed. But there's no "4 years and 10 lashings for holding an independence vote" in our criminal code. If they pursue a referendum they aren't allowed to call, they will find themselves in contempt of court, prevarication, misuse of public funds... etc... That's what happened with the one they celebrated 2 years ago.
c) It's a bit unclear if the central government could hold an independence referendum. It hasn't been constitutionally tested and the central government isn't particularly interested in testing it. It's pretty clear that it could only be held in the whole of Spain, though.
d) For anything else, you have to reform the Constitution.
Come on, Spain, you already played that part, let Syria have it this time.
Mah Spanish ETF. :(
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any single constituent unit.
This is funny beyond belief: No Constitution recognizes a right to self-determination. Doesn't make secession any less of a reality if a majority of a population in a given constituent unit wants it.
Well it would certainly make it more of a reality if it did.
I still ask the same question: if independence happens, Barcelona football club will play who in the league competition? :P
Quote from: Monoriu on September 06, 2017, 09:03:45 PM
I still ask the same question: if independence happens, Barcelona football club will play who in the league competition? :P
According to Catalonian-born Manuel Valls, former prime minister of France, in the French league. :D
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2ANLuTc.jpg%253C%2Fspan%253E%253Cspan%253E&hash=0610c88baad0251073c627873912451c00ce24cf)
Quote from: Drakken on September 06, 2017, 07:57:24 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any single constituent unit.
This is funny beyond belief: No Constitution recognizes a right to self-determination. Doesn't make secession any less of a reality if a majority of a population in a given constituent unit wants it.
That would be the case... if the separatists weren't creating a Constitutional crisis on the back of a popular vote loss in the last regional election (while they retained a majority in parliament because yay electoral law).
If they wanted this, they should have tried to convince the rest of us and build up a real majority for the referendum instead of trying to sneak it through parliament with disregard to the law of the land. There's also the fact that they held a vote in 2015 where less than 30% of the electoral census voted "yes" to independence.
Personally I would agree to a referendum if it had built-in safeguards for those displaced as a result and it was done at a local district level (after which the borders would be drawn).
Just like with Brexit, the richest parts of Catalonia (Greater Barcelona and northern Tarragona) are the least likely to vote for secession. Which is ironic considering that the main argument for independence is that Catalonia sends away more money than it gets back.
Quote from: Valmy on September 06, 2017, 04:12:04 PM
What the hell is wrong with people?
I think the answer was posted earlier.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:06:34 PM
Meh.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to money, and unlike Basques Catalonian politicians have no real control over taxes (which is why they've orchestrated this charade).
Looks like brinksmanship to press for a better autonomy deal.
That's how it all started - in 2012 the Catalan regional government petitioned for a new tax regime and it was rebuked by the Spanish gov, and the nationalist parties began pushing for independence. However, since then the leaders of the nationalist movement have been replaced by very ideological true believers, and more radical parties (like CUP) have come to the fore. It might be a "Guns of August" situation, where each other side rises the ante expecting the others to blink first, only to reach a point of no return. I'm not sure we are at a point where reconciliation can be reached.
I know the historical precedence for the separatist movement for the basque, but what's the deal with the movement in Catalonia? The general populous that is, not the politicians.
Generalitat
Quote from: HVC on September 07, 2017, 10:13:26 AM
I know the historical precedence for the separatist movement for the basque, but what's the deal with the movement in Catalonia? The general populous that is, not the politicians.
I always thought the Catalans are great poster children for annoying Euro-nationalists. They are not particularly oppressed currently but have a long list of grievances that stretch back centuries against numerous oppressors that often have nothing at all to do with nationality. Their big national day is the siege of Barcelona, and the resulting defeat of the pro-Habsburg forces, by the Bourbons. Because being strong supporters of nationalism is what the Habsburgs were all about don't you know.
And that is another annoying quality: your big national holiday being a military defeat. Obnoxious.
But I am sure it makes more sense to celedhring who lives there.
Quote from: HVC on September 07, 2017, 10:13:26 AM
I know the historical precedence for the separatist movement for the basque, but what's the deal with the movement in Catalonia? The general populous that is, not the politicians.
It has a strong streak of "rich people's kind of separatism", with the "we're rich so why should we support the rest of the country, bunch of moochers", coupled with one of the whiniest and more victimistic attitudes you can imagine. And I say that as a person who is in the "support for decentralisation" side of the slider, so to speak.
Quote from: The Larch on September 07, 2017, 10:48:08 AM
coupled with one of the whiniest and more victimistic attitudes you can imagine.
Ah. So see sometimes ones view from far away can be accurate :P
Pretty much every region in Spain has a nationalist party. That's how we roll.
It all comes back to the old EU centralization slider. Like in most other European monarchies, the King would grab whatever opportunity presented itself to increase his power at the nobles' cost. Local or regional bodies known as Cortes and privileges known as Fueros were an obstacle to this absolutist desires.
Aragón, for example, lost theirs when the Justice harbored Phillipe II's disgraced secretary. Catalonia, after joining the Austrian side during the War of Succession that the Bourbonists won. Basques and Navarres have managed to keep theirs, despite all odds. That's why they are the only ones that have an independent tax authority.
Hey I am all for federal governments, I naturally think those are the best since I live in one.
Catalonia seems especially obnoxious though.
Spain is basically a federal country in all but name, our regions have way more powers than many other countries' regions. Making this plain and obvious in the constitution seems to be taboo, though.
There's been periods of cultural suppression against Catalans, that can't be denied (and no, we haven't been the only ones oppressed, Spain has been a very sucky place for Spaniards throughout history). My mother can't write in Catalan because schools were forbidden to teach it, she officially has a Spanish name because the registrar wouldn't register a Catalan name when she was born. She is intensely separatist as a result. But that oppression finished... 40 years ago? Even asshole civil registrars have died out by this time. Spain's fine (not perfect) now. But nationalists feed on that resentment and pass it down. The whines are unbearable, it's like Generalissimo Franco (who's still dead) personally rakes them on coals every fucking night or something.
This reminds me that I have tickets for the train tomorrow. Maybe I should grab the passport just in case. :lmfao:
Doesn't sound like celedhring is a die hard Catalonian nationalist....
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:36:42 PM
So what?
Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.
Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.
When you have 40-50% of the population voting for parties willing to run roughshod through constitutional and democratic principles in order to achieve MUH FREEDOM, you can bet that unilateral independence is going to have an effect. Sure, long term or even mid term, unilateral independence is not viable, but you can bet that lots of damage can be done in the interim. And I don't mean just metaphorical damage.
Maybe Spain shouldn't have behaved like it did, running roughshod over made agreements and behaving in a fashion that is better suited for Russia rather than a western state?
Huh?
:huh:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 07, 2017, 12:30:03 PM
Maybe Spain shouldn't have behaved like it did, running roughshod over made agreements and behaving in a fashion that is better suited for Russia rather than a western state?
Maybe you should be more specific so he can address what exactly it is you are referring to?
Quote from: Valmy on September 07, 2017, 12:51:45 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 07, 2017, 12:30:03 PM
Maybe Spain shouldn't have behaved like it did, running roughshod over made agreements and behaving in a fashion that is better suited for Russia rather than a western state?
Maybe you should be more specific so he can address what exactly it is you are referring to?
Isabella was a bitch maybe?
Quote from: HVC on September 07, 2017, 01:00:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 07, 2017, 12:51:45 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 07, 2017, 12:30:03 PM
Maybe Spain shouldn't have behaved like it did, running roughshod over made agreements and behaving in a fashion that is better suited for Russia rather than a western state?
Maybe you should be more specific so he can address what exactly it is you are referring to?
Isabella was a bitch maybe?
I thought maybe he was talking about Francisco Franco but it was not like Spain was a democracy when he was in charge so that would be silly.
Probably a Treaty of Tortillas thing.
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 01:32:23 PM
Probably a Treaty of Tortillas thing.
Isn't that on Taco Bell's secret menu?
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 07, 2017, 01:42:52 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2017, 01:32:23 PM
Probably a Treaty of Tortillas thing.
Isn't that on Taco Bell's secret menu?
I don't know, they never tell me anything.
I too am pretty interested in hearing the pro-separatist point of view. I vaguely remember bits about federal Spanish shittiness as well, but no details.
In this particular case I don't have even mild opinions in either direction.
For one thing, it's not clear to me how much Catalonian nationalism is Scottish-style cultural nationalism or Lega Nordish resentment of subsidizing southerners.
A bit of both, really.
And in some extreme cases it converges into the "we're floating balls of light being prevented from being basically Scandinavian by the knuckle dragging thugs in Madrid" delightful combo.
Most large Catalan cities - and critically, Barcelona - have denied the Catalan government the use of polling stations for the referendum. Support for separatism is lower in cities (except in the north), and larger in rural areas, so that was expected. The thing is already stillborn before a single police officer makes a single arrest.
At the end of the day, the separatists haven't even bothered to try to convince the rest of the Catalans before going to battle against Spain. If they mustered, say, 66%+ sustained support, the union would be untenable in the long term, no matter the illegality of independence under the current Spanish constitutional order. But nope, it's all subterfuge and jumping over a cliff for... what? Fueling more victim complex for another generation?
Is there really no Spanish law against sedition or insurrection?
There is, but it hasn't been deployed so far.
The Spanish gov seems to aim to jail as few people as possible, and fine and disqualify from office the rest.
If anybody harbored doubts over which side to pick, Assange has come out in force in favor of the separatists. ;)
(and no, the Spanish gov is far from perfect, but it's definitely the lesser of the two evils here).
Today we had a separatist mega-demo in Barcelona for Catalonia's national day. It's been a success (350,000 - 1,000,000 people depending on whom you chose to believe) but they fell short of the attendances of similar demos in these past years.
Key day is going to be tomorrow. The Catalan Supreme Court has summoned the heads of the national and regional polices to consult with them, with a mandate to stop the referendum. If the Catalan regional police - which are under the authority of the Catalan regional government - signals that it won't follow the court's mandate, we will fully enter "party like it's the 1930s" territory.
Send in the Cossacks.
I mean at the end of the day if the Catalans are willing to sacrifice everything for independence there is nothing anybody would do about it. I mean it is not like Spain would ever seriously send in the troops or something unless some kind of civil war breaks out there.
I just find the justification weak and I don't see how it benefits the individual citizens of Catalonia at all.
Just like Brexit and Trump there is only so much that can be done when a population narrowly votes for suicide.
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 09:27:34 AM
I mean at the end of the day if the Catalans are willing to sacrifice everything for independence there is nothing anybody would do about it. I mean it is not like Spain would ever seriously send in the troops or something unless some kind of civil war breaks out there.
Uh... don't give the Spaniards any ideas.
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 09:28:29 AM
Uh...
I mean if loyalists inside Catalonia start getting slapped down the ultra-nationalists. The ultra-nationalists would have to start it. Otherwise I cannot imagine Madrid having the political capital to do it even if they wanted to (which they probably do not).
Quote from: The Brain on September 11, 2017, 04:30:17 PM
Send in the Cossacks International Brigades. Clowns, oh they're already here.
Send in the Clowns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzLHU6S4oic)
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 09:30:41 AM
I mean if loyalists inside Catalonia start getting slapped down the ultra-nationalists. The ultra-nationalists would have to start it. Otherwise I cannot imagine Madrid having the political capital to do it even if they wanted to (which they probably do not).
You know we are talking of the same country where part of the Spanish Armed Forces invaded the Cortes in an attempted military putsch in 1981, right? May look quaint, but let's remember that the Third Military Region in Valencia mutined in support of the coup, and actual tanks were in the streets of Valencia to back up the putsch. Real, military might. It took the King to directly order the mutineers to stand down and give democracy a chance to prevent a new civil war because Juan Carlos, as Commander-in-Chief, was the only person they would accept taking orders from.
That was merely 35 years ago, a mere generation. So... yeah.
I cannot see how the Catalonian government wanting to go ahead with a referendum clearly trumpeted as both illegitimate and illegal both by all three central branches of government - the Spanish Supreme Court, the Cortes, and the Spanish government - can lead to them suddenly throwing their hands in the air if the Catalonians keep insisting. The indissoluble character of the unity of the Spanish Kingdom in the damn Constitution is in black and white, for crying out loud. If Catalonia goes, so will all other Spanish regions, like say... the Basque region (ETA-Batasuna, remember?).
This is why I find the idea of forbidding any possibility of legal, democratic secession in a Constitution not only laughable but absolutely dangerous - it gives a legal and constitutional framework to keep a seceding body in by use of force. We are entering brinksmanship territory now, and a constitutional crisis. I can totally see the Spanish government send troops there if Catalonia really insists in defying the government. This, while considering that Spain has still not even begun to make peace with its Civil War history yet, and that it is still taboo to discuss the legacy of the Franco regime. And there's a reason why...
We have, thankfully, come a long way since 1981, and the armed forces of today don't look or act at all like the ones from back then. Use of military force is beyond the question.
Quote from: The Larch on September 12, 2017, 10:03:40 AM
We have, thankfully, come a long way since 1981, and the armed forces of today don't look or act at all like the ones from back then. Use of military force is beyond the question.
I don't know. The more the Catalonian government insists in being pig-headed and defiant, the bigger the crisis is growing, and that's when it gets slippery.
I really hope you are right, and maybe you are. I won't hide it is getting worrying - and it should be for the Catalonia population.
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
This is why I find the idea of forbidding any possibility of legal, democratic secession in a Constitution not only laughable but absolutely dangerous
I don't think it is actually either of those things at all and I think you are being paranoid. The fact you are quoting ancient history that the locals think is absurd should calm you.
I think if they had an overwhelming democratic mandate there would be very little Madrid would do to stop them. Especially if they had legitimate grievances that people elsewhere in Spain agreed with. The fact they have no such thing and instead are relying on legal tricks and smoke and mirrors and citing the acts of a long dead dictator (and absolute monarchies before that) as their justification is what makes this potentially dangerous.
Of course even if they did go peacefully and legally it will be bad for the Catalonian population. They have nothing to gain from this besides a shrinking economy and reduced standard of living. But I don't think it will be violent unless it breaks out inside Catalonia.
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 10:18:58 AM
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
This is why I find the idea of forbidding any possibility of legal, democratic secession in a Constitution not only laughable but absolutely dangerous
I don't think it is actually either of those things at all and I think you are being paranoid. The fact you are quoting ancient history that the locals think is absurd should calm you.
I think if they had an overwhelming democratic mandate there would be very little Madrid would do to stop them. Especially if they had legitimate grievances that people elsewhere in Spain agreed with. The fact they have no such thing and instead are relying on legal tricks and smoke and mirrors and citing the acts of a long dead dictator (and absolute monarchies before that) as their justification is what makes this potentially dangerous.
Of course even if they did go peacefully and legally it will be bad for the Catalonian population. They have nothing to gain from this besides a shrinking economy and reduced standard of living. But I don't think it will be violent unless it breaks out inside Catalonia.
How would this reduce the Catalonian standard of living?
Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 10:18:58 AM
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
This is why I find the idea of forbidding any possibility of legal, democratic secession in a Constitution not only laughable but absolutely dangerous
I don't think it is actually either of those things at all and I think you are being paranoid. The fact you are quoting ancient history that the locals think is absurd should calm you.
I think if they had an overwhelming democratic mandate there would be very little Madrid would do to stop them. Especially if they had legitimate grievances that people elsewhere in Spain agreed with. The fact they have no such thing and instead are relying on legal tricks and smoke and mirrors and citing the acts of a long dead dictator (and absolute monarchies before that) as their justification is what makes this potentially dangerous.
Of course even if they did go peacefully and legally it will be bad for the Catalonian population. They have nothing to gain from this besides a shrinking economy and reduced standard of living. But I don't think it will be violent unless it breaks out inside Catalonia.
How would this reduce the Catalonian standard of living?
Leaving the EU probably wouldn't help business.
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 12, 2017, 10:03:40 AM
We have, thankfully, come a long way since 1981, and the armed forces of today don't look or act at all like the ones from back then. Use of military force is beyond the question.
I don't know. The more the Catalonian government insists in being pig-headed and defiant, the bigger the crisis is growing, and that's when it gets slippery.
I really hope you are right, and maybe you are. I won't hide it is getting worrying - and it should be for the Catalonia population.
We went over this at the start of the thread. There's a whole lot of things that Madrid can do before sending in the tanks. They can issue arrest warrants for those caught in illegal acts, and if those are not followed by the regional police they'll have grounds to freeze money transfers (de facto suspending autonomy).
Quote from: The Brain on September 12, 2017, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 10:18:58 AM
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
This is why I find the idea of forbidding any possibility of legal, democratic secession in a Constitution not only laughable but absolutely dangerous
I don't think it is actually either of those things at all and I think you are being paranoid. The fact you are quoting ancient history that the locals think is absurd should calm you.
I think if they had an overwhelming democratic mandate there would be very little Madrid would do to stop them. Especially if they had legitimate grievances that people elsewhere in Spain agreed with. The fact they have no such thing and instead are relying on legal tricks and smoke and mirrors and citing the acts of a long dead dictator (and absolute monarchies before that) as their justification is what makes this potentially dangerous.
Of course even if they did go peacefully and legally it will be bad for the Catalonian population. They have nothing to gain from this besides a shrinking economy and reduced standard of living. But I don't think it will be violent unless it breaks out inside Catalonia.
How would this reduce the Catalonian standard of living?
Leaving the EU probably wouldn't help business.
What if they got back in the EU?
We wouldn't get back into the EU anytime soon. If only per encourager les autres. Spain has veto, too.
Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 03:04:56 PM
What if they got back in the EU?
For somebody who is so anti-EU you sure know very little about it :P
Every country has a hard veto so they would need Spain (and everybody else) to support their secession if they want to get back in. And adding more bureaucracy and international borders is generally just bad for business.
Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 03:04:56 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 12, 2017, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 10:18:58 AM
Quote from: Drakken on September 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
This is why I find the idea of forbidding any possibility of legal, democratic secession in a Constitution not only laughable but absolutely dangerous
I don't think it is actually either of those things at all and I think you are being paranoid. The fact you are quoting ancient history that the locals think is absurd should calm you.
I think if they had an overwhelming democratic mandate there would be very little Madrid would do to stop them. Especially if they had legitimate grievances that people elsewhere in Spain agreed with. The fact they have no such thing and instead are relying on legal tricks and smoke and mirrors and citing the acts of a long dead dictator (and absolute monarchies before that) as their justification is what makes this potentially dangerous.
Of course even if they did go peacefully and legally it will be bad for the Catalonian population. They have nothing to gain from this besides a shrinking economy and reduced standard of living. But I don't think it will be violent unless it breaks out inside Catalonia.
How would this reduce the Catalonian standard of living?
Leaving the EU probably wouldn't help business.
What if they got back in the EU?
At best you're looking at years in the wilderness. How many businesses in Catalonia will move to within the EU?
AFAIK there'd be no exit negotiations á la Brexit since they don't exit the EU like a member state would, they simply exit by no longer being part of Spain. I don't see how they could seriously negotiate with Catalonia until it is sovereign. As soon as the EU recognizes an independent Catalonia they are out instantly. Lots of regulation will just evaporate making some sectors (that are heavily regulated and depend on cross-border activity) no longer viable.
There is precedent: when Algeria became independent they immediately ceased to be part of the EEC. The opposite happened when West Germany annexed East Germany.
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 03:10:17 PM
For somebody who is so anti-EU you sure know very little about it :P
Back off, bird killer :angry:
Quote from: celedhring on September 12, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
We wouldn't get back into the EU anytime soon. If only per encourager les autres. Spain has veto, too.
And yet taking a hardline on Catexit would be kind of cutting the nose to spite the face.
I would assume that an independent Catalonia would port over most existing EU law and regs to national law, and immediately seek EEA status. Does that require unanimous consent from every EU state? In any case, hard to think of a reasoned basis for refusing.
Once they're in EFTA/EEA seems to me full EU membership would be just a matter of time.
Quote from: The Larch on September 12, 2017, 10:03:40 AMUse of military force is beyond the question.
If that's the case, you probably ought to just disband your military and save the money.
If the only way to keep Catalonia part of Spain is through the force of arms, then Catalonia won't be a part of Spain anymore. Armed intervention would be politically untenable.
As said though, there's many ways to go before that becomes the only resort. Today the Catalan regional police force has signaled that it would abide by the Court's instructions to stop the referendum, so any kind of full out rebellion is already dead in the water.
Probably just as well if the opposition is boycotting.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 12, 2017, 05:04:37 PMseek EEA status. Does that require unanimous consent from every EU state? In any case, hard to think of a reasoned basis for refusing.
Once they're in EFTA/EEA seems to me full EU membership would be just a matter of time.
Croatia is a full EU member but only a provisional EEA member.
Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 04:09:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 03:10:17 PM
For somebody who is so anti-EU you sure know very little about it :P
Back off, bird killer :angry:
Birds are dinosaurs. Do you really want your children attacked by dinosaurs?
Think of the children!
If Catalonia exits, Spain could just use the U.S. strategy circa 1861 (before the shooting started)...just ignore it and not recognize it.
If some kind of nascent Catalonian authority starts a fight with the feds, react appropriately to individual cases.
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 12, 2017, 08:03:14 PM
If Catalonia exits, Spain could just use the U.S. strategy circa 1861 (before the shooting started)...just ignore it and not recognize it.
If some kind of nascent Catalonian authority starts a fight with the feds, react appropriately to individual cases.
If at all possible I think Spain should spare ordinary Catalonians the ordeal of having to serve (and pay taxes to) two masters.
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.
In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.
In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.
Is this money handed over by the central government? Someone upstream said Catalonia has no taxing authority so I'm a little confused where this money comes from.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 15, 2017, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.
In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.
Is this money handed over by the central government? Someone upstream said Catalonia has no taxing authority so I'm a little confused where this money comes from.
There's two things at play here.
1) The Central Government collects most taxes (income, VAT, and corporate, all the big ones) and then distributes them to the regions throughout the year, usually in batches.
2) If additionally, a region uses credit facilities from the central government (which can borrow at a much better rate) they have to get their spending approved by the central government, and as an extreme measure the central government can step in and seize control of the entire budget. That's what they are doing right now.
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.
They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.
Quote from: celedhring on September 15, 2017, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.
They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.
It worked for Americans.
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 15, 2017, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.
It worked for Americans.
We had been collecting taxes for decades because the British forgot they had American colonies for about 100 years while they fought civil wars. It was the British who deployed the extra tax collectors.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.
How could that possibly work? Aren't they obligated to make their records available to the public?
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 15, 2017, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.
They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.
To be frank, I think they are aware this is doomed to fail - the forces are too uneven. I think the only plan here is to force Spain to the bargaining table, or make them look bad in the international press (police shutting down political rallies, seizing ballot boxes, etc...) so the rest of the EU forces them to the bargaining table so this goes away (at least that's the nationalists' calculus, I'm not that sure the EU countries are that keen on rewarding secesionists).
There's also a game of chicken component going on, where nobody has backed down in years because it would hurt them politically, and now we're here as a result.
Constitutional reform was needed in Spain before this happened, the problem is that now the well is truly poisoned.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 15, 2017, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.
How could that possibly work? Aren't they obligated to make their records available to the public?
Further explanation: Catalonia is using Spain's credit to finance itself (many other regions do the same). Spain has a much better credit rating than Catalonia so it saves money to the state as a whole. The condition is that the central government has to approve Catalonia's spending. What Catalonia will stop doing is sending the bills to Madrid for approval.
As a counter-measure, Madrid will take over Catalonia's payment processing, which is allowed under the law when a region doesn't honor the agreement.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:43:37 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 15, 2017, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.
It worked for Americans.
We had been collecting taxes for decades because the British forgot they had American colonies for about 100 years while they fought civil wars. It was the British who deployed the extra tax collectors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion)
Quote
The so-called "whiskey tax" was the first tax imposed on a domestic product by the newly formed federal government. It became law in 1791, and was intended to generate revenue for the war debt incurred during the Revolutionary War. The tax applied to all distilled spirits, but American whiskey was by far the country's most popular distilled beverage in the 18th century, so the excise became widely known as a "whiskey tax". Farmers of the western frontier were accustomed to distilling their surplus rye, barley, wheat, corn, or fermented grain mixtures into whiskey. These farmers resisted the tax. In these regions, whiskey often served as a medium of exchange. Many of the resisters were war veterans who believed that they were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution, in particular against taxation without local representation, while the federal government maintained that the taxes were the legal expression of Congressional taxation powers.
Yeah, I don't think a tax implemented 15 years later after peace had been achieved supports Oex's point.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 15, 2017, 12:53:20 PM
Yeah, I don't think a tax implemented 15 years later after peace had been achieved supports Oex's point.
You are responding to viper, the master of the
non sequitur. Note that he doesn't make any claims, just posts, Timmay-like, an irrelevant quote (from Wikipedia, no less). Just move on and ignore the troll.
12 members (undersecretary level and below) of the Catalan government have been arrested today for organizing the referendum, under orders of the court. The atmosphere is heating up, badly.
Let me guess, separatists are calling them political prisoners?
Quote from: derspiess on September 20, 2017, 07:42:34 AM
Let me guess, separatists are calling them political prisoners?
Yes.
I know the Spanish economy hasn't been particularly healthy in recent memory, but going full retard over this by the pro-independents seems unwarranted.
Quote from: derspiess on September 20, 2017, 07:42:34 AM
Let me guess, separatists are calling them political prisoners?
Well, aren't they?
Someone imprisoned for their political activity? Yeah, this fits the definition.
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2017, 08:11:42 AM
I know the Spanish economy hasn't been particularly healthy in recent memory, but going full retard over this by the pro-independents seems unwarranted.
This goes waaaaaaay beyond the crisis (though it has been useful to fuel the flames).
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 20, 2017, 11:48:13 AM
Someone imprisoned for their political activity? Yeah, this fits the definition.
Technically they will be imprisoned for illicitly funneling public funds to further their own political goals. I'm guessing that's also illegal in the US.
#vindicated
For the record, I now oppose the separatists.
Anyway, the good news is Iglesias seems intent on destroying Podemos from within. Too bad the Socialists are complete morons. It really seems to me that PP will be handed a sizable majority next elections on a silver platter.
Quote from: Valmy on September 07, 2017, 01:11:56 PM
I thought maybe he was talking about Francisco Franco but it was not like Spain was a democracy when he was in charge so that would be silly.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.lemde.fr%2F2017%2F09%2F21%2F0%2F0%2F3497%2F5235%2F534%2F0%2F60%2F0%2Ff96c322_28709-tzzpo9.3u9pb9.jpg&hash=6e5befb2b324ebfabda9f57195f7e07e333c0436)
In other news, according to a Catalonian nationalist, Generalissimo Franco is still (not) dead. :P
Dude needs to work on his Spanish. That's not even close.
I'm going full Tim today. The atmosphere is really heated and I can't see this ending without - at least - street violence.
It is very worrying. I think the separatists have played their cards well (leaving morality aside of course).
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 21, 2017, 03:47:47 AM
It is very worrying. I think the separatists have played their cards well (leaving morality aside of course).
Do you think their Scottish counterparts are taking notes?
The Spanish government is really doing their best to get a leave vote aren't they with all this trying to stop the thing even happening.
Quote from: Tamas on September 21, 2017, 04:47:52 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 21, 2017, 03:47:47 AM
It is very worrying. I think the separatists have played their cards well (leaving morality aside of course).
Do you think their Scottish counterparts are taking notes?
They are on the back foot at the moment. I think the SNP annoyed a number of lukewarm supporters by pressing for a referendum just two years after the last one. There are a number of Scots who would "quite like" to be independent but it is not a constant burning issue for them. Meanwhile the formerly superior Scottish educational system now underperforms England's......on the SNP's watch; the SNP is starting to be judged on its incumbency. I think we have dodged that particular bullet for the foreseeable future.
The SNP look set for a split between the right nationalists (anti EU and anti UK) and the left nationals (pro eu and and Uk) IMO.
Scottish independence has become very tied to avoiding brexit. Which has won some support, though lost a lot more in marginals.
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2017, 03:19:20 AM
I'm going full Tim today. The atmosphere is really heated and I can't see this ending without - at least - street violence.
I agree, Spain needs to cool the fuck down. Seeking refuge from the blistering sun in a restaurant somewhere south of Córdoba right now.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 21, 2017, 03:03:35 AM
Dude needs to work on his Spanish. That's not even close.
:D
Quote from: Tamas on September 21, 2017, 04:47:52 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 21, 2017, 03:47:47 AM
It is very worrying. I think the separatists have played their cards well (leaving morality aside of course).
Do you think their Scottish counterparts are taking notes?
It's a bit harder for them when they've already had a referendum and nobody (not even the SNP) wants another one.
Spanish Govt really seems to be doing its level best to encourage the separatists.
I thought Madrid was on the right track before they arrested the separatist politicians. I mean you might as well be secretly a separatist if you are going to do something with such a proven track record of failure. The British government would be rocking along with basic support in Ireland and then blow everything to shit by doing something heavy handed like this in the past and we saw how wonderfully that turned out.
It still might work out but they needed to let cooler heads prevail here.
Quote from: Valmy on September 21, 2017, 08:40:09 AM
I thought Madrid was on the right track before they arrested the separatist politicians. I mean you might as well be secretly a separatist if you are going to do something with such a proven track record of failure. The British government would be rocking along with basic support in Ireland and then blow everything to shit by doing something heavy handed like this in the past and we saw how wonderfully that turned out.
It still might work out but they needed to let cooler heads prevail here.
Yeah, I just don't get it. They really expect this to go away by locking up the leaders? Is that how they wish to solve the issue? The only more surreal than an independence movement in today's western Europe is a police crackdown on it.
The leaders weren't locked up, they just arrested the underlings that were most directly involved in organizing the referendum. The highest ranking person arrested is the equivalent of an undersecretary or deputy minister (of the regional government).
It was ordered by the court, although the judge who did it has a reputation of being prison-happy.
I think it was a fatally dumb move. You can't apply justice selectively, but surely this could have been more quietly dealt with after the referendum date. Madrid had been focused on seizing materials/blocking expenditure until now, trying to make the logistics of the referendum unfeasible.
Tempers are running really hot now. The 10 next days are going to be very, very long.
Ah well it is not as bad as I originally thought.
Still stupid though.
I agree - the surest way to guarantee Catalan independence is to tell Catalans they don't even get to decide whether or not to be independent.
The thing is, they don't.
Unless they a) convince the rest of us to change the Constitution and split amicably. Or b) start a war and win it.
A small moment of levity.
The Spanish government has sent 5,000 additional policemen to Catalonia in advance of the referendum. Thing is, there aren't enough quarters available to host such a surge. So they went and chartered 3 passenger ships, which are now moored in Barcelona harbor.
This, is one of them:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobylines.com%2Fexport%2Fsites%2Fmoby_en%2Fimg%2Fnavi%2FDada_570x260.jpg&hash=2f2c8678367a9a63468440a98aacf564c7c4a1ca)
:lol:
By the way, it seems like it was not the Government that triggered the raid yesterday. The judge that ordered the arrests is investigating a complaint filed by Vox, our tiny reactionary right party. That would better explain this turn of events, as Rajoy is more of a wait-and-see kind of politician.
BTW Celery, very clever thread title. Witty even.
Has anyone actually tried throwing shit in the fan? It doesn't do what you think it will do.
I'd imagine it depends on the consistency of the shit and the strength of the fan.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 21, 2017, 09:53:55 PM
I'd imagine it depends on the consistency of the shit and the strength of the fan.
Doesn't matter. Your best shot is taking the front guard off, but even that doesn't really help.
Suchet may need to cross the border and restore order.
The Spanish Ministry of Interior has taken control of the regional police, after the regional police has been accused of being "passive" in their role of stopping the referendum. Litmus test here - if the regional police doesn't follow Madrid's orders, my thread title will come to reality.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 22, 2017, 07:30:11 PM
Suchet may need to cross the border and restore order.
It doesn't take Poirot to figure this one out.
Quote from: The Brain on September 23, 2017, 05:30:11 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 22, 2017, 07:30:11 PM
Suchet may need to cross the border and restore order.
It doesn't take Poirot to figure this one out.
He can free the Catalan officials from the little grey cells they have been put in.
So, any developments?
Nothing major. Just campaigning by the separatists. It's a holiday weekend in most parts of Catalonia, so the fun will resume in Tuesday as we enter the home stretch before the referendum (slated for next Sunday).
Also, President Rajoy is meeting with Trump this week in the White House. I'm actually looking forward the chance of Trump inserting himself in the debate :lol:
What chance do you see of a strike Celed?
That would be, I think, a pretty good gauge of separatist sentiment. Banging on cookware costs nothing. Renouncing to your salary, on the other hand ...
Also, it would help me if Martorell closed down for a couple of weeks. :P
I can't see it happening. There were calls for a general strike after the arrests last week, but UGT and CCOO (largest unions over here) rejected it.
Also there's not too much time to organize a strike, since there's just 4 working days until the vote.
So, the anarchist trade union has indeed called for a strike on October 3rd. We're officially back to the 1930s!
They're really small though. I can't see it succeeding unless the larger unions end up joining. And even those don't have the pull they once had.
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2017, 05:14:18 AM
So, the anarchist trade union has indeed called for a strike on October 3rd. We're officially back to the 1930s!
Does the anarchist trade union have union rules? :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2017, 07:45:02 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2017, 05:14:18 AM
So, the anarchist trade union has indeed called for a strike on October 3rd. We're officially back to the 1930s!
Does the anarchist trade union have union rules? :unsure:
They must have law and order!
I knew I could count on the CNT guys!
:)
You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.
Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2017, 06:59:50 PM
You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.
Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.
So...what do you do in Spain instead of pop popcorn? Mix up some Sangria? Make some Paella?
Sounds like a good day to stay home.
I'm almost sad that I won't be there this Sunday. :P
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LastingQuestionableCamel-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2017, 06:59:50 PM
You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.
Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.
the government should simply have allowed the referendum. Do it the British way, for once, they got something really right. ;)
Define the mandates, the conditions, the audit of the process by neutral observers, allow campaigning by Spain to preserve the Union, allow campaigning by the Seperatists to make their case, respect the electoral rules, don't cheat, let it play. If Russians are behind this, expose them publicly before it even starts, and everytime there is such an act. Fight the fake news, answer with facts, don't do scaremongering, that tends to push people the other way. If corruption is involved from the administration, then these are the laws must strive to apply, not some sillyness about forbidding the expression of democracy.
Maybe the seperatists would have gotten 40% of the vote. Maybe 48%. By what you tells us, it seems unlikely it would have won.
Maybe this entire situation could even have been avoided by public&transparent negotiations on decentralization of the Federal States toward the regions before there is even a referendum.
Stephen Harper fought against the seperatists the good way: he ignored them, he didn't respond to any attemps by Marois to provoke anger on the Feds side. And it worked. 18 months later, the dumb bitch harakiried herself and the seperatist movement is at an all time low, not even sure to make it to 2nd place in next year elections.
Now, I fear Spain has just given credence to the seperatist cause and this story is far from over. It may sleep for a while, but it will come back.
They are not allowed to do that even if they wanted to.
The Constitution is very clear. And to change it you need a 2/3s majority; dissolving Parliament; calling elections; getting another 2/3s majority and a referendum in the whole country.
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2017, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2017, 06:59:50 PM
You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.
Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.
the government should simply have allowed the referendum. Do it the British way, for once, they got something really right. ;)
Define the mandates, the conditions, the audit of the process by neutral observers, allow campaigning by Spain to preserve the Union, allow campaigning by the Seperatists to make their case, respect the electoral rules, don't cheat, let it play. If Russians are behind this, expose them publicly before it even starts, and everytime there is such an act. Fight the fake news, answer with facts, don't do scaremongering, that tends to push people the other way. If corruption is involved from the administration, then these are the laws must strive to apply, not some sillyness about forbidding the expression of democracy.
Maybe the seperatists would have gotten 40% of the vote. Maybe 48%. By what you tells us, it seems unlikely it would have won.
Maybe this entire situation could even have been avoided by public&transparent negotiations on decentralization of the Federal States toward the regions before there is even a referendum.
Stephen Harper fought against the seperatists the good way: he ignored them, he didn't respond to any attemps by Marois to provoke anger on the Feds side. And it worked. 18 months later, the dumb bitch harakiried herself and the seperatist movement is at an all time low, not even sure to make it to 2nd place in next year elections.
Now, I fear Spain has just given credence to the seperatist cause and this story is far from over. It may sleep for a while, but it will come back.
This ain't Canada, Viper. Allowing the referendum to happen would have been unconstitutional AND a grossly dangerous slippery slope. What's stopping the Basque Country to ask for their own referendum next?
This sort of referendum for secession is forbidden by the Spanish Constitution. Kingdom of Spain is one and indivisible and there are no lawful processes to break it down.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 28, 2017, 03:33:12 PM
They are not allowed to do that even if they wanted to.
The Constitution is very clear. And to change it you need a 2/3s majority; dissolving Parliament; calling elections; getting another 2/3s majority and a referendum in the whole country.
So you have it as a consultative referendum.
That seems a bit weird though. If independence wins we'd have to go through the same process of Constitutional reform, since independence would still be illegal. And what if the reform is then rejected?
Canadians sure seem crap on constitutionality. The best way for the Spanish government to avoid an unconstitutional regional vote on succession cannot be to conduct an unconstitutional regional vote on succession of its own, even using the fig leaf that it is just "consultative." It would be a disaster if succession lost the vote, and catastrophe if it won.
Quote from: Drakken on September 28, 2017, 04:12:14 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 28, 2017, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2017, 06:59:50 PM
You can always count on Barcelona's anarchists showing up for the fun since 1909.
Anyhow, latest news is that the Supreme Court of Catalonia has ordered all the police forces to shut down all polling stations this Sunday and confiscate all electoral materials. Separatist organizations are already announcing occupations to "protect" the stations. It's gonna be a blast.
the government should simply have allowed the referendum. Do it the British way, for once, they got something really right. ;)
Define the mandates, the conditions, the audit of the process by neutral observers, allow campaigning by Spain to preserve the Union, allow campaigning by the Seperatists to make their case, respect the electoral rules, don't cheat, let it play. If Russians are behind this, expose them publicly before it even starts, and everytime there is such an act. Fight the fake news, answer with facts, don't do scaremongering, that tends to push people the other way. If corruption is involved from the administration, then these are the laws must strive to apply, not some sillyness about forbidding the expression of democracy.
Maybe the seperatists would have gotten 40% of the vote. Maybe 48%. By what you tells us, it seems unlikely it would have won.
Maybe this entire situation could even have been avoided by public&transparent negotiations on decentralization of the Federal States toward the regions before there is even a referendum.
Stephen Harper fought against the seperatists the good way: he ignored them, he didn't respond to any attemps by Marois to provoke anger on the Feds side. And it worked. 18 months later, the dumb bitch harakiried herself and the seperatist movement is at an all time low, not even sure to make it to 2nd place in next year elections.
Now, I fear Spain has just given credence to the seperatist cause and this story is far from over. It may sleep for a while, but it will come back.
This ain't Canada, Viper. Allowing the referendum to happen would have been unconstitutional AND a grossly dangerous slippery slope. What's stopping the Basque Country to ask for their own referendum next?
This sort of referendum for secession is forbidden by the Spanish Constitution. Kingdom of Spain is one and indivisible and there are no lawful processes to break it down.
If all that's keeping these people in line is the threat of force, the power of the army, than there is something really fucked up in Spain.
When a nation overwhelmingly feels it wants to leave, it's because there's something wrong. Find it, fix it, end of problem.
Quote from: celedhring on September 28, 2017, 05:57:15 PM
That seems a bit weird though. If independence wins we'd have to go through the same process of Constitutional reform, since independence would still be illegal. And what if the reform is then rejected?
To be clear - is the referendum banned by the constitution? Because it appears that the Spanish Govt is at the moment seeking to prevent the referendum rather than the separation.
If independence wins, it might (depending on the margin) inform the reform process.
If it loses then at least you have dealt with the issue for a decade or two.
Quote from: Gups on September 29, 2017, 03:16:48 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 28, 2017, 05:57:15 PM
That seems a bit weird though. If independence wins we'd have to go through the same process of Constitutional reform, since independence would still be illegal. And what if the reform is then rejected?
To be clear - is the referendum banned by the constitution? Because it appears that the Spanish Govt is at the moment seeking to prevent the referendum rather than the separation.
If independence wins, it might (depending on the margin) inform the reform process.
If it loses then at least you have dealt with the issue for a decade or two.
The referendum is binding. It's not a Puerto Rico "we'll vote and then ask the US Congress to implement the result" deal. It's seeking a mandate to act against the Constitution. Hence, it's intrinsically unconstitutional.
A consultative referendum seems pointless. The separatists would never accept it anyway, the whole point of their argument is Catalonia's alleged right of self-determination, which doesn't apply if then you have to ask the rest of Spain to agree to implement the result (and it would be rejected by Spanish voters).
Honestly though, I just don't see a way for reconciliation and stability right now. It's either independence or a low-key version of The Troubles. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but I see the nationalist frenzy in a large swathe of my compatriots and this isn't going away tomorrow. We're deeply divided and this won't heal anytime soon.
And if Catalonia goes, the domino effect will make Spain crumble, make no mistake about it. The most prosperous and peaceful period of freedom in Spanish history, gone. We're fucking cursed.
Yes, I've gone full Tim.
Maybe it's best to let the Moors take it again.
Because North Africa is a model of peace and stability.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 29, 2017, 04:16:41 AM
Because North Africa is a model of peace and stability.
That's because of colonialism, which wouldn't apply to Spain.
Quote from: The Brain on September 29, 2017, 04:19:14 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 29, 2017, 04:16:41 AM
Because North Africa is a model of peace and stability.
That's because of colonialism, which wouldn't apply to Spain.
:lol:
Franco must be spinning in his grave. Though his Moorish troops did bring some kind of "stability". :hmm:
Tomorrow's the day. A little sitrep:
1) The Catalan Supreme Court has decreed the closure of all polling stations. As a response, separatists have begun occupying them to keep them open throughout the night and passively resist closure/eviction efforts from the police tomorrow. According to one of their orgs, 25% of polling stations are occupied atm.
2) The regional police has orders from the court to show up tomorrow morning and attempt to close the stations and seize electoral materials. Right now, it's a bit of a question mark how "forceful" their attempts at doing that will be.
3) Today the Spanish police raided the regional government's IT offices, in and attempt to shut down telematic tools for counting votes, etc...
4) The Spanish nationalists showed up for the party today ( <_<) with a sizable demo in downtown Barcelona that ended up with a bit of bother.
Tomorrow's going to be a long day.
Aaaaaaand the fun is on! <_<
(https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/914383059390275585/pu/img/vei_9KDFR3tKcO0M.jpg)
https://twitter.com/pablo_iglesias_/status/914401890682761216
Seems a little more brutal than what is needed.
I went down to make sure my parents don't get in any shit, which they are prone to since getting into trouble with the cops makes them feel young.
I am having trouble processing all of this, myself.
I don't get the strategy Rajoy is following here at all. Let the voting take place. Send in plain clothes officers to gather evidence (eg. illicit use of census), then quietly start the arrests a couple weeks from now.
It's not like the results are going to matter anyway.
It's idiotic.
My parents tell me the voting system is down too, and it seems it's been hacked. Sending in the riot police to make a show of force is pointless.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 03:45:20 AM
I don't get the strategy Rajoy is following here at all. Let the voting take place. Send in plain clothes officers to gather evidence (eg. illicit use of census), then quietly start the arrests a couple weeks from now.
It's not like the results are going to matter anyway.
Yeah it seems like the Spanish government is doing all they can to escalate the situation.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 03:45:20 AM
I don't get the strategy Rajoy is following here at all. Let the voting take place. Send in plain clothes officers to gather evidence (eg. illicit use of census), then quietly start the arrests a couple weeks from now.
Or instead Spain could accept that it has a problem and that the 2010 court decision to gut the Catalan autonomous statute wasn't the smartest idea? Same for refusing to any negotiations despite 30+ (so I read) requests from the Catalans to have talks?
If the Catalans can get 100.000s, and on more than one occasion a million+, people on the streets and that year after year to demand independence than it's Spain that has a problem. Not the Catalans.
especially if this is correct (seems to me that the US threw of British yoke for less, at least in popular mythology)
Quote
http://de-bron.org/content/rajoy-zaait-verdeeldheid-en-onrust
Welke autonomie was afgesproken voor Catalonië?
De Spaanse grondwet van 1978 erkende Catalonië als een aparte natie (naast Baskenland en Galicië). Het autonomiestatuut werd goedgekeurd in 2006 door zowel het Spaanse als het Catalaanse parlement en door een 74% van de Catalaanse stemmen bij een referendum. Dat bevestigt dat Catalonië een autonoom bestuur heeft, uitgezonderd voor defensie, grenzen en terrorisme. Die ruime autonomie werd echter betwist, vooral door de Partido Popular (PP) van Rajoy.
Het Spaanse oppergerechtshof oordeelde dan in 2010 dat 14 artikels van het autonomiestatuut ongrondwettelijk waren; het legde ook beperkingen op aan 27 andere. Het vernietigde onder meer de formele waarborg op het recht op zelfbestuur, de fiscale autonomie en de afgesproken beperkingen op financiële transfers. Het stelde voorts dat de erkenning als natie geen enkel legaal belang had.
my translation:
What autonomy did Catalonia get?
The Spanish Constitution of 1978 recognized Catalonia as a separate nation (alongside the Basques and Galicia). This autonomous statute was approved in 2006 by both Spanish and Catalan parliaments and with a 74% majority of Catalan votes, through a referendum. This agreement confirms that Catalonia has a separate administration (government?) except for defense, borders and counter-terrorism. This far-reaching autonomy was contested however, mainly by Rajoy's Partido Popular.
The Spanish highest court judged in 2010 that 14 articles of this statute were unconstitutional; it also put restrictions on 27 other articles. It destroyed, among others, the formal guarantee to the right of self-government, fiscal autonomy and the agree on limits to fiscal transfers. It also states that the recognition as a nation was of no legal consequence whatsoever.
you're right that this round solves nothing though. The issue will come back and back and back until Spain agrees to sit down with the Catalans and negotiate a new deal or until Catalonia gains its freedom.
Limits to fiscal transfers are completely idiotic. Transfers are a function of demographics.
The overwhelming majority of job openings for qualified young people require you to move to Barcelona or Madrid. Rural areas were already depopulated, now small towns are suffering the same process.
It is hard enough as it is to afford a flat in Barcelona. It would be impossible if every other Spanish pensioner had to move there because Extremadura, Castille or Galicia had no more money for pensions or health services.
Le Figaro.fr reports Catalan independentists are holding carnations in demonstrations in a parallel to the Carnation Revolution.
I really don't think Rajoy is some kind of Marcelo Caetano...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.f1g.fr%2Fmedia%2F_uploaded%2F804x%2Ffigaro-live%2Flefigaro.fr%2F20171001LIVWWW00007%2F2017-10-01t094938z_16834969_rc1eb8dd8960_rtrmadp_3_spain-politics-catalonia.jpg&hash=48dddeda75c393591dbca645bedd3c36145cbfb7)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.f1g.fr%2Fmedia%2F_uploaded%2F804x%2Ffigaro-live%2Flefigaro.fr%2F20171001LIVWWW00007%2F688995-01-02.jpg&hash=b87e14b23f6327f21dfc89e9117135437e0dc62c)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.f1g.fr%2Fmedia%2F_uploaded%2F804x%2Ffigaro-live%2Flefigaro.fr%2F20171001LIVWWW00007%2F2017-10-01t103507z_1852938509_rc192b492400_rtrmadp_3_spain-politics-catalonia.jpg&hash=aa2ba1927a4001fb34f46d7b5c90e767284149b7)
Quote from: Barrister on September 28, 2017, 05:01:00 PM
So you have it as a consultative referendum.
Lets have a referendum to bring back the Confederacy and make black people slaves again.
Don't worry it's just consultative.
Quote from: chipwich on October 01, 2017, 06:29:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 28, 2017, 05:01:00 PM
So you have it as a consultative referendum.
Lets have a referendum to bring back the Confederacy and make black people slaves again.
Don't worry it's just consultative.
I don't think Marti analogies are helpful.
FC Barcelona has apparently asked for today's match to be postponed.
It would be for the best, I think, unless you want to inflame the situation further.
Hey Celed, what's going on with the Mossos today?
Are they active at all? One has to wonder if all this shit is a way to justify their dissolution.
They have shut down several polling stations in low-intensity areas (nearly 200, according to themselves), but done nothing when faced with nominal resistance from people inside. I think they wanted to nominally follow court orders without entering into full on street combat. I guess we'll know in the following days whether they actually disobeyed orders or not. I went past two of them watching a polling station earlier, and they looked really anxious.
I think we are on the road of becoming the new Ulster - with less violence. I just can't see any path to compromise right now. Yahoo!
Did you vote anyway?
Jesus. Police is using force, with soft bullets against demonstrators. 337 people have been wounded, 3 grievously.
Who told me I was being paranoid again?
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 07:33:17 AM
They have shut down several polling stations in low-intensity areas (nearly 200, according to themselves), but done nothing when faced with nominal resistance from people inside. I think they wanted to nominally follow court orders without entering into full on street combat. I guess we'll know in the following days whether they actually disobeyed orders or not. I went past two of them watching a polling station earlier, and they looked really anxious.
I think we are on the road of becoming the new Ulster - with less violence. I just can't see any path to compromise right now. Yahoo!
Stay calm and out of trouble. This sounds terrible and for an outsider like me utterly confusing. I didn't understand why the local government was going ahead with this, but the central government's apparent eagerness to escalate seems much more unjustified.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 08:23:10 AM
Jesus. Police is using force, with soft bullets against demonstrators. 337 people have been wounded, 3 grievously.
Who told me I was being paranoid again?
It's not that bad, all things considered. There's probably a couple million people on the streets today.
Also what was the Spanish football association thinking not allowing the cancellation of today's Barcelona match? Is it some kind of Spanish custom to have a civil war every generation?
Regional police have stated everything is fine, regarding security for the match.
Cr Ah the Catalans! Only the Basque deserve autonomy!
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 08:59:31 AM
Regional police have stated everything is fine, regarding security for the match.
Which is baffling, since supporter groups threatened to invade the pitch and prevent the game from taking place.
At least we're playing closed doors. I hope there isn't violence outside the pitch.
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2017, 08:55:18 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 07:33:17 AM
They have shut down several polling stations in low-intensity areas (nearly 200, according to themselves), but done nothing when faced with nominal resistance from people inside. I think they wanted to nominally follow court orders without entering into full on street combat. I guess we'll know in the following days whether they actually disobeyed orders or not. I went past two of them watching a polling station earlier, and they looked really anxious.
I think we are on the road of becoming the new Ulster - with less violence. I just can't see any path to compromise right now. Yahoo!
Stay calm and out of trouble. This sounds terrible and for an outsider like me utterly confusing. I didn't understand why the local government was going ahead with this, but the central government's apparent eagerness to escalate seems much more unjustified.
Yeah, I mean I'm generally against independent movements but if this is how the central government reacts to a vote it doesn't want...
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 09:09:40 AM
Yeah, I mean I'm generally against independent movements but if this is how the central government reacts to a vote it doesn't want...
With patriots like those in the ruling party, I'm not sure Spain needs more enemies.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 05:12:47 AM
Limits to fiscal transfers are completely idiotic. Transfers are a function of demographics.
not limiting transfers is idiotic, else you'll have regions that don't get their finances in order for decades on end. And would be stupid to get them in order as it'll reduce the money they get. Cases in point: Brussels, Wallonia.
A nation has right to decide how the fruits of it's labours are spent. All the fruits.
regardless: nice images coming out of Spain. Reminds me of Venezuela, or maybe Turkey. Or some other state with issues.
This "the referendum is unconstitutional and illegal" stuff is a true nonsense.
How can this be legally illegal (...yeah, I know)?
Isn't self determination covered under international law?
I've no view on whether Catalunya should be independent or not but we aren't talking some borderline case of a sub division of a sub division of a sub division wanting a referendum here, we are talking an actual separate nation. They deserve a referendum.
I'm not aware of any requirement to accomodate treason.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 01, 2017, 10:05:26 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 05:12:47 AM
Limits to fiscal transfers are completely idiotic. Transfers are a function of demographics.
not limiting transfers is idiotic, else you'll have regions that don't get their finances in order for decades on end. And would be stupid to get them in order as it'll reduce the money they get. Cases in point: Brussels, Wallonia.
A nation has right to decide how the fruits of it's labours are spent. All the fruits.
Isn't that what happens in a federal state? Say like on this chart of how much each US state gets from federal gov't per each $1 it sends to the gov't.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/
(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2014/05/Slide3/966724856.jpg)
Quote from: Tyr on October 01, 2017, 10:07:38 AM
This "the referendum is unconstitutional and illegal" stuff is a true nonsense.
How can this be legally illegal (...yeah, I know)?
Isn't self determination covered under international law?
I've no view on whether Catalunya should be independent or not but we aren't talking some borderline case of a sub division of a sub division of a sub division wanting a referendum here, we are talking an actual separate nation. They deserve a referendum.
If they were actually separate, what would be the point?
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 10:44:02 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 01, 2017, 10:05:26 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 05:12:47 AM
Limits to fiscal transfers are completely idiotic. Transfers are a function of demographics.
not limiting transfers is idiotic, else you'll have regions that don't get their finances in order for decades on end. And would be stupid to get them in order as it'll reduce the money they get. Cases in point: Brussels, Wallonia.
A nation has right to decide how the fruits of it's labours are spent. All the fruits.
Isn't that what happens in a federal state? Say like on this chart of how much each US state gets from federal gov't per each $1 it sends to the gov't.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/)
(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2014/05/Slide3/966724856.jpg)
Like he said, you encourage States to not clean their act. They have no reason to make any kind of structural reform to adress the imbalance.
But a graphic for one year is not really meaningful.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 01, 2017, 10:58:33 AM
If they were actually separate, what would be the point?
a nation does not automatically come with borders. Kurds are a nation, really distinct from their neighbours. Yet, there is no such thing as a Kurdistan in the UN. Rohingyas are a nation too, despite having no country of their own.
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2017, 11:00:54 AM
Like he said, you encourage States to not clean their act. They have no reason to make any kind of structural reform to adress the imbalance.
Which again is part and parcel of being part of a federal system. There are always more profitable, desirable areas that have to 'prop up' financially other parts of the state. That can't really be the basis of an independence movement as you see the same dynamic if you move to a municipal level.g
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2017, 11:00:54 AM
But a graphic for one year is not really meaningful.
If you click through the links, they run that analysis yearly with similar results.
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 11:11:00 AM
Which again is part and parcel of being part of a federal system. There are always more profitable, desirable areas that have to 'prop up' financially other parts of the state.
over a short term period, some part of a State or a city could be poorer. Rapid technological change can do that, or legalising/forbidding something. Classic example was abolishing slavery in your country, it made the South poorer for a time, especially combined with the destruction done by the Northern troops. New York could have been poorer for a time after 9/11, and New Jersey would have been poorer for a time after their last hurricane, but it's not something that should be permanent.
If a State decides to lower its effective tax rates and rely on Federal money instead to compensate, it is a problem.
If a State/territory suffers from an hurricane that's another.
If people stop buying car, Michigan is poorer for a while, but in no way should this be a permanent solution. The State should try to find ways to diversify it's economy. If car global car sales in the US are declining for a decade and the State still insists on producing cars for 90% of its GDP, with constant federal life support, there is no incentive to move away from car production.
When people keep being dependant on the Federal State, it can create resentment on both sides of the divide. People and States receving the money expect it, it is their due. People paying accept for a time but would want the receivers to be grateful. Kinda like how Trump acts with Porto Rico.
QuoteThat can't really be the basis of an independence movement as you see the same dynamic if you move to a municipal level.g
I doubt it's ever the basis of anything. Otherwise, West-Montrealers would want to fence and split themselves from East Montreal... oh wait, bad example. ;)
First comes the nation. People feel different. Different language, different culture, different approach to living, different political tendancies, among many factors. Then comes the political cry. Simply stating you are different isn't nearly enough, as some people just don't see it that way. Genereally speaking, if you tell people others are living off of their back and they would be much better off by splitting from the "parasites", they tend to listen. Maybe not agree, but listen to your case. Tell them your solution will result in widespread poverty and a decreast in their standard of living and they turn away from you... People generally accept change when they believe it's for the better.
By the by, the South wasn't poorer for a time. If you look at that chart, much of the South is still getting the better deal / other charts will show a high concentration of poverty in the South. So pretty much the norm for quite some time.
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 12:35:46 PM
By the by, the South wasn't poorer for a time. If you look at that chart, much of the South is still getting the better deal / other charts will show a high concentration of poverty in the South. So pretty much the norm for quite some time.
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/#dependency-and-state-taxes
High dependancy and Low GDP seems concentrated on the Red States.
I agree the term "poor" is ill chosen, because I had production output (GDP) in mind.
Please explain to me how the provinces of the interior can "address" age and population density imbalances in such a way that transfers are not necessary.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.teinteresa.es%2Fespana%2FEdad-media-poblacion-espanola-provincias_TINIMA20130422_0458_19.jpg&hash=3a53da793a94949a316e61a31ff7c2a7a1acd4da)
(https://www.ecestaticos.com/file/0f77e20598f53edaf80070559f722d47/1483351765-densidadpob.png)
My mom was talking about this the other day, but she kept saying Caledonia. I had no idea what she was talking about.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2017, 12:54:42 PM
My mom was talking about this the other day, but she kept saying Caledonia. I had no idea what she was talking about.
They voted to stay. :scots:
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2017, 12:54:42 PM
My mom was talking about this the other day, but she kept saying Caledonia. I had no idea what she was talking about.
Nobody's mentioning Bisque independence.
And the award to the weirdest event of the day goes to ...
Gypsies coming to the aid of police forces and chasing separatists off (https://twitter.com/fray_fanatic/status/914507683771949056) :hmm:
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 12:48:01 PM
Please explain to me how the provinces of the interior can "address" age and population density imbalances in such a way that transfers are not necessary.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.teinteresa.es%2Fespana%2FEdad-media-poblacion-espanola-provincias_TINIMA20130422_0458_19.jpg&hash=3a53da793a94949a316e61a31ff7c2a7a1acd4da)
(https://www.ecestaticos.com/file/0f77e20598f53edaf80070559f722d47/1483351765-densidadpob.png)
:hmm: Looks like anyone who's young enough to be mobile wants to move as far away from Portugese as possible. Makes sense.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 12:48:01 PM
Please explain to me how the provinces of the interior can "address" age and population density imbalances in such a way that transfers are not necessary.
age and population density, no.
but we're talking GDP output here.
I don't know about Spain. But if I look at Quebec?
- Exploiting natural resources instead of leaving it in the ground. We have gaz&oil, we refuse to take it out.
- Reducing bureaucracy, the burden of regulations affecting our productivity.
- Having a decent healthcare system that works. I know people point at the doctor's wages right now, but it was the same before the last round of increase, it still wasn't working.
- Having a decent education system that removes religion from school and place science&facts where it should be. Confessional schools should still be mandated by State to offer the same education as the public school, religious classes must come on top of that, not instead of a math class.
- Lowering taxes for the middle class to stimulate investments&consumption
- Lowering taxes for property transfer inside the State compared to selling to foreigners as to create an incentive to keep property local
- Force union transparency so members can see what their Union does with the money they collect.
- Do not hesitate to investigate and arrest union members when a crime is suspected, the same way mafia groups are infiltrated and dismantled
- fight corruption, don't accept it anywhere
- elevate requirements to get professional diplomas and make sure the appropriate resource are there for the students with learning troubles
- encourage excellency at school by creating classes of advanced students where they learn faster than the others.
- promote urban density rather than expansion into agricultural lands
- use Federal and State government money to fund important infrastructure projects in cities and rural areas but do not provide funding for management of such project (like urban transports, cities should find a way to finance the operating costs, but I don't mind if we all pay for the buses/metro/trains themselves)
- promote free market and competition whenever possible instead of rules®ulations designed to create barriers on entry. Government regulation may be needed to keep a market fair, but they shouldn't be designed to needlessly increase costs of operations
- diversify the economy, do not rely on a single type of industry for designated area. My home town relied on Bombardier for years to insure its growth. It took us too decade to accept things would never be the same. Now, it's moving, but they still have a tendancy to look at the past by solely promoting one type of industry with one type of manual workers instead of seeking to attract service businesses too.
Quote from: DGuller on October 01, 2017, 01:41:28 PM
:hmm: Looks like anyone who's young enough to be mobile wants to move as far away from Portugese as possible. Makes sense.
it's the beachrubbings...
No vote was held today says Rajoy
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live
His actions make no sense.
He's fucked. He failed both the die-hards that wanted the vote not to take place whatever the cost, and the moderates preferred to let the thing happen, call it for the bogus vote it is, and then try a political approach.
Yep. That's a pretty accurate assessment.
His problem is that he usually lets things simmer down, but this time he lost control of the situation once a district judge ordered the Civil Guard to arrest the plotters and raid the Generalitat's offices - which ended in a clusterfuck in downtown Barcelona. From that point on he was completely outplayed.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
Yep. That's a pretty accurate assessment.
His problem is that he usually lets things simmer down, but this time he lost control of the situation once a district judge ordered the Civil Guard to arrest the plotters and raid the Generalitat's offices - which ended in a clusterfuck in downtown Barcelona. From that point on he was completely outplayed.
I think he was under big pressure from the more right wing circles in the party and media to bring down the fury of god on the separatists after he let the 2014 vote happen - vote which was then happily ignored by everyone.
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 02:01:22 PM
He's fucked. He failed both the die-hards that wanted the vote not to take place whatever the cost, and the moderates preferred to let the thing happen, call it for the bogus vote it is, and then try a political approach.
Indeed. The political approach seems now dead in the water. It would have worked while using force was still an last-resort option, but now that the latter's been used and we have almost 800 wounded?
We might coat in whatever language you want, in the end the Catalonian governement is now in effect in a state of secession, unless the numbers are dumbfoundingly against separating. And yet, the Catalonian separatists now have the advantage - they are widely portrayed now as victims on the world stage.
His only options remaining now seems either to back down and look weak, and throw Spain even further into constitutional crisis (because that referendum, whatever we say, does remains unconstitutional), or go all-in and make a call for the unity of Spain against the Catalonian government's "open revolt" to keep the die-hards' backing. Doing a Cameron, i.e. go to the King and resign would just throw the government further into chaos.
Rajoy tried to play the brinksmanship's game, but he failed abysmally. No one can back down here now without admitting utter defeat.
The referendum in itself is a sham, I guess they'll announce results later this evening but I predict something like 3 million turnout with less than 10% of "No" vote, which nobody will believe. There are already precincts reporting more votes than people actually live there. It's hilarious.
Now the separatist camp has its own choice to make. Proceed with an UDI (the referendum is supposedly binding), or back down from it and use the political clout they just gained to exact concessions or an actual referendum. They'll be under big pressure from their own diehards to declare independence right now, and I don't think any single western nation would recognize it, losing a lot of the capital they just gained.
A referendum is not a realistic option. The Constitutional Court will declare it null and void in minutes. Reforming the Constitution might have worked long-term if the Catalonian separatists hadn't gone for the confrontation game, but that way is long gone.
The only choice Rajoy has is how far he goes against the Generalitat. He can do nothing, suspend autonomy and anything in between. But his hand might be forced by the judiciary. Thousands of people are now technically implicated in crimes.
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 02:51:21 PM
The referendum in itself is a sham, I guess they'll announce results later this evening but I predict something like 3 million turnout with less than 10% of "No" vote, which nobody will believe. There are already precincts reporting more votes than people actually live there. It's hilarious.
I read somewhere that the consign was given by anti-secessionist groups in Catalonia to refrain from voting. Was this true?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 02:55:13 PM
A referendum is not a realistic option. The Constitutional Court will declare it null and void in minutes. Reforming the Constitution might have worked long-term if the Catalonian separatists hadn't gone for the confrontation game, but that way is long gone.
The only choice Rajoy has is how far he goes against the Generalitat. He can do nothing, suspend autonomy and anything in between. But his hand might be forced by the judiciary. Thousands of people are now technically implicated in crimes.
Could arrest warrants be given by the Courts against the members of the Generalitat government? Or would this be impossible, for example if they are granted immunity?
Those who were arrested last week were all rather small fishes - middle people and local organizers. Members of the Generalitat seem to be left off the hook, so far.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 03:14:42 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 02:51:21 PM
The referendum in itself is a sham, I guess they'll announce results later this evening but I predict something like 3 million turnout with less than 10% of "No" vote, which nobody will believe. There are already precincts reporting more votes than people actually live there. It's hilarious.
I read somewhere that the consign was given by anti-secessionist groups in Catalonia to not go to vote. Was this true?
If you are against the independence then voting only hurts your position. It gives the process legitimacy.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 02:55:13 PM
A referendum is not a realistic option. The Constitutional Court will declare it null and void in minutes. Reforming the Constitution might have worked long-term if the Catalonian separatists hadn't gone for the confrontation game, but that way is long gone.
The only choice Rajoy has is how far he goes against the Generalitat. He can do nothing, suspend autonomy and anything in between. But his hand might be forced by the judiciary. Thousands of people are now technically implicated in crimes.
Could arrest warrants be given by the Courts against the members of the Generalitat government? Or would this be impossible, for example if they are granted immunity?
Those who were arrested last week were all rather small fishes - middle people and local organizers. Members of the Generalitat seem to be left off the hook, so far.
They are not immune to prosecution, but they can only be judged by the Catalonian Superior Court (which ordered today's police raids) or the Supreme Court.
Catalan president announces UDI in the next few days.
Time to raid the supermarket!
The EU won't be coming out of this unscathed either.
It's lack of condemnation of today's beatings probably cost it what was left of leverage over Poland and Hungary.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 01, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
The EU won't be coming out of this unscathed either.
What's the EU got to do with this? :huh:
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 01, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
The EU won't be coming out of this unscathed either.
What's the EU got to do with this? :huh:
well, beating up people doing their civic duty (namely voting) is quite problematic. The EU likes to tell countries far and wide that they shouldn't be engaging in such -potentially entertaining- activities. This time it's a member engaging in said activity. There's now a certain amount of credibility at stake.
Expect Putin, Erdogan and other paragons of democracy to chime in shortly.
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 02:51:21 PM
There are already precincts reporting more votes than people actually live there. It's hilarious.
I read that some people voted in other districts since the Spanish government blocked entry to some polls. that could account for some discrepancy in the vote.
But it's hard ot make it legit, no matter the result, in these circumstances.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 03:24:27 PM
If you are against the independence then voting only hurts your position. It gives the process legitimacy.
If you are against independance, then you should vote and encourage others to vote, to give the process legitimacy and burry the idea for a while, maybe eve extinguish it for more than a generation.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 01, 2017, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 01, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
The EU won't be coming out of this unscathed either.
What's the EU got to do with this? :huh:
well, beating up people doing their civic duty (namely voting) is quite problematic. The EU likes to tell countries far and wide that they shouldn't be engaging in such -potentially entertaining- activities. This time it's a member engaging in said activity. There's now a certain amount of credibility at stake.
Expect Putin, Erdogan and other paragons of democracy to chime in shortly.
Oh for fucks sake!
As stupid as today's shit has been, it was largely carried out with extreme professionalism. Especially when compared with the way the police were kicking ass just a few years back. I didn't see shit coming from anyone back then, perhaps you remember differently.
Here, check out how the Mossos defend themselves against a couple of teenagers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFulH9I3buQ
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2017, 03:57:06 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 03:24:27 PM
If you are against the independence then voting only hurts your position. It gives the process legitimacy.
If you are against independance, then you should vote and encourage others to vote, to give the process legitimacy and burry the idea for a while, maybe eve extinguish it for more than a generation.
:lol:
That's not how things work over here. They would just keep on voting until the result was "right".
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 03:36:47 PM
Catalan president announces UDI in the next few days.
What. The. Hell.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:05:57 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 03:36:47 PM
Catalan president announces UDI in the next few days.
What. The. Hell.
He didn't even wait till the results were in, did he?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 04:07:27 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:05:57 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 03:36:47 PM
Catalan president announces UDI in the next few days.
What. The. Hell.
He didn't even wait till the results were in, did he?
He just said that the would "apply the result" of the referendum, which nobody doubts is going to something silly like 85% yes :lol:
I like an idea I saw elsewhere (FC): Rajoy and Puigdemont hired a telenovela writer and decided to go with his script. :lmfao:
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
I like an idea I saw elsewhere (FC): Rajoy and Puigdemont hired a telenovela writer and decided to go with his script. :lmfao:
By this point I am hoping for a Deus Ex Machina cameo of King Felipe sweeping in to say it was all a dream.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 04:05:34 PM
:lol:
That's not how things work over here. They would just keep on voting until the result was "right".
I've heard federalists say that all my lives.
After the last referendum was won by the NO side with a very slim margin, there were lots of boasting from the seperatists they would do it again. The talk is there, but it never happens. People have gone elsewhere for now, as soon as the Federal government started treating them with respect.
Of course, it could come back. But for now, the Seperatist party at the Federal level has but a few MPs and the provincial seperatist party, the only one who could hold a referendum is 3rd in the voting polls and has sworn not to do a referendum in the first mandate.
No political party likes to lose. If Spain had allowed a referendum despite the Constitution, found a way to allow a vote on the independance issue, agree to the rules beforehand, it's unlikely there would have been a seperatist victory from what you tell me, and it seems doubtufl they could make a comeback referendum before half a generation, unless some unforseen change, like a Spexit.
The Regional Government will go forward with the UDI unless some of the moderates (if they are still there) get sweaty. Then the central government will suspend the autonomy, bring in the troops, and we'll become a more sunny version of the Ulster. Oh joy!
I guess the separatists plan on the ensuing fire and crimson to force Europe's hand. Feels so good to be a political human shield.
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 04:31:04 PM
The Regional Government will go forward with the UDI unless some of the moderates (if they are still there) get sweaty. Then the central government will suspend the autonomy, bring in the troops, and we'll become a more sunny version of the Ulster. Oh joy!
I guess the separatists plan on the ensuing fire and crimson to force Europe's hand. Feels so good to be a political human shield.
Nah, you are being paranoid. We are not 1981 anymore and Spain is now a democratic, stable coun... oh wait.
Sending in the troops would be a truly terrible idea. Of course, this is Rajoy we are talking about. Just freeze money transfers, imprison Puigdemont & Co (at night if possible) and replace the leaders of the Mossos.
I'm still hoping for a general strike. I maintain that it's the best way to test how committed the separatists are.
Of course it would also help me quite a bit, but that's beside the point. :P
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 04:31:04 PM
The Regional Government will go forward with the UDI unless some of the moderates (if they are still there) get sweaty. Then the central government will suspend the autonomy, bring in the troops, and we'll become a more sunny version of the Ulster. Oh joy!
I guess the separatists plan on the ensuing fire and crimson to force Europe's hand. Feels so good to be a political human shield.
What do they think Europe would do?
Quote from: The Brain on October 01, 2017, 04:37:57 PM
What do they think Europe would do?
So far the EC has always been constantly on the side of the Spanish government when this issue would crop up, but now there is immense pressure for the EU to speak up against the "violent repression" in Catalonia today. I cannot see the European Commission staying silent over this, now that we might have at the very, very worst a new civil war in Spain.
So tell me, so I have a frame of reference: on scale of 1 to 5--with 5 being a Real Madrid-Barcelona match and 1 being your average animal cruelty municipal bloodfeast--what's the potential amount of eggplant political violence here?
Quote from: The Brain on October 01, 2017, 04:37:57 PM
What do they think Europe would do?
Expel Spain, obviously.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:41:32 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 01, 2017, 04:37:57 PM
What do they think Europe would do?
So far the EC has always been constantly on the side of the Spanish government when this issue would crop up, but now there is immense pressure for the EU to speak up against the "violent repression" in Catalonia today. I cannot see the European Commission staying silent over this, now that we might have at the very, very worst a new civil war in Spain.
The worst thing the Commision can do right now is get involved in this.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 01, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
So tell me, so I have a frame of reference: on scale of 1 to 5--with 5 being a Real Madrid-Barcelona match and 1 being your average animal cruelty municipal bloodfeast--what's the potential amount of eggplant political violence here?
We are reaching the period right after Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860 and the Southern states went apeshit for secession - and the Northern states and congressmen were calling it as a bluff. And in a few days, North Carolina declares secession.
We are not at Fort Sumter, though. Yet.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 04:43:22 PM
The worst thing the Commision can do right now is get involved in this.
Thing is, can they remain silent without losing total credibility? Spain remains a major partner in the European Union.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:44:26 PM
We are reaching the period right after Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860 and the Southern states went apeshit.
We are not at Fort Sumter, though. Yet.
Oh, that's not good.
Am I the only one picturing Drakken saying this all breathless with excitement?
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 04:47:55 PM
Am I the only one picturing Drakken saying this all breathless with excitement?
I am actually very worried about the turn of events, like quite a many Quebecers are - for obvious reasons.
Ask Viper.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:49:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 04:47:55 PM
Am I the only one picturing Drakken saying this all breathless with excitement?
I am actually very worried about the turn of events, like quite a many Quebecers are - for obvious reasons.
Ask Viper.
I sincerely doubt Madrid is going to let Quebec secede either.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 01, 2017, 04:51:12 PM
I sincerely doubt Madrid is going to let Quebec secede either.
The Catalan example (like Scotland) are states that are presented as living similar experiences to Quebec by our secessionnist movements here. Many of their representatives, like Martine Ouellet, are in Catalonia right now as observers (unfortunately for us, Martine will be coming back). We also have mainstream journalists there to cover the events.
Needless to say, they are going bonkers about this "political repression of the popular will", so it occupies our political discussions here as well. It is front news here in Montreal, with Singh's election second. Plus, while I am Federalist I am still very worried that things can go even more haywire for people in Catalonia as well. It's not just a division between Rajoy and the Generalitat, but also Catalan secessionists against Catalan non-secessionists.
There's talk of general elections if the socialists do not support Rajoy. Seems like they want to sink PSOE for good.
In theory PP would crush the opposition everywhere other than Catalonia and the Basque Country, but if the Tories have teached us anything is to expect the unexpected...
I'm looking at some of the precincts reporting, turnout is consistently lower across the board from 2014 (the other self-determination referendum the nationalists held, which had a 43% turnout). They might doctor the numbers when Barcelona comes in, which is a huge swathe of the census, but if that's a mandate for secession - we are looking at 40% turnout -, they're nuts.
PP, hehe.
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 05:11:24 PM
I'm looking at some of the precincts reporting, turnout is consistently lower across the board from 2014 (the other self-determination referendum the nationalists held, which had a 43% turnout). They might doctor the numbers when Barcelona comes in, which is a huge swathe of the census, but if that's a mandate for secession - we are looking at 40% turnout -, they're nuts.
Well, they are already in for sedition. They might as well go for rebellion as well. You know, in for a penny ...
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:44:26 PM
We are not at Fort Sumter, though. Yet.
if Spain calls for volunteers to invade Catalonia and restore order, there will be a Fort Sumter, I think.
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2017, 04:47:55 PM
Am I the only one picturing Drakken saying this all breathless with excitement?
Yes, you are. He looks worried to me. So am I, frankly, even if I don't really know anyone from there (meaning I only know our Spanish poster from there).
2,250,000 votes (43% of census), 90% Yes. :lol:
The Catalan Republic gets started with a banana republic poll.
Quote from: Drakken on October 01, 2017, 04:59:57 PM
(unfortunately for us, Martine will be coming back).
Maybe they'll close the border and she'll be stuck there for a while.
Quote
Needless to say, they are going bonkers about this "political repression of the popular will", so it occupies our political discussions here as well. It is front news here in Montreal, with Singh's election second. Plus, while I am Federalist I am still very worried that things can go even more haywire for people in Catalonia as well. It's not just a division between Rajoy and the Generalitat, but also Catalan secessionists against Catalan non-secessionists.
Same here. Except I don't wake up singing
Oh Canada in my maple leaf boxers. ;)
Things could go from bad to worst very quickly and the central government isn't doing anything to calm it down.
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2017, 05:33:32 PM
2,250,000 votes (43% of census), 90% Yes. :lol:
The Catalan Republic gets started with a banana republic poll.
if, as Iormlund says, most NO supporters refused to vote, then it is hardly surprising. Also, the police repression must have fueled the seperatist fires there.
Still, a referendum held in these conditions isn't worth much on the international scene.
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2017, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 04:05:34 PM
:lol:
That's not how things work over here. They would just keep on voting until the result was "right".
I've heard federalists say that all my lives.
After the last referendum was won by the NO side with a very slim margin, there were lots of boasting from the seperatists they would do it again. The talk is there, but it never happens. People have gone elsewhere for now, as soon as the Federal government started treating them with respect.
Of course, it could come back. But for now, the Seperatist party at the Federal level has but a few MPs and the provincial seperatist party, the only one who could hold a referendum is 3rd in the voting polls and has sworn not to do a referendum in the first mandate.
No political party likes to lose. If Spain had allowed a referendum despite the Constitution, found a way to allow a vote on the independance issue, agree to the rules beforehand, it's unlikely there would have been a seperatist victory from what you tell me, and it seems doubtufl they could make a comeback referendum before half a generation, unless some unforseen change, like a Spexit.
I think you are projecting the situation there too much.
The scenario you outline might have been realistic a few decades ago, but no more.
The Catalonian Christian-democrats (CiU) dominated the region since Franco died. They routinely played the nationalist card when they wanted more powers. This went on for around 30 years, until the nationalism they had cultivated as a weapon overtook them. By now the separatist sentiment is really strong, and centered in the very young and the extreme left. The moderates are now hanging on to dear life, carried by a tsunami of their own making.
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2017, 05:34:23 PM
Same here. Except I don't wake up singing Oh Canada in my maple leaf boxers. ;)
You should try it, it's good for the soul. Especially the English version :P
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 04:37:19 PM
I'm still hoping for a general strike. I maintain that it's the best way to test how committed the separatists are.
Of course it would also help me quite a bit, but that's beside the point. :P
One of the largest unions has joined the call for a strike tomorrow. The other will decide today. :yeah:
Almost final results are in.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLFrtHvW4AASmRc.jpg)
Official census is 5.5 million voters, so about 36% voted yes according to the organizers.
If things do go to shit, I at least look forward to the release of "Spanish Civil War II: Total War".
Quote from: Iormlund on October 01, 2017, 05:40:41 PM
By now the separatist sentiment is really strong, and centered in the very young and the extreme left.
that's worst than I thought.
The Abraham Lincoln brigade stands ready.
The Germans and Italians are on standby.
Quote from: The Brain on October 02, 2017, 01:27:48 AM
The Germans and Italians are on standby.
Why? No need to airlift Moroccans, they are already there. :smarty:
Still, what would Salazar do? :hmm:
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 03:13:07 PM
That might've been true if it was still the previous guys (Mas & Co.). But the guys now running the government? They are true believers. Nope, they are going all the way.
Just realized the godfather Pujol is really forgotten now to be mentioned by &Co. :( :D
Btw, thank you for the local coverage, this applies somewhat to Iormlund, though he is from Cæsaraugusta I believe. It' missing a centre-of-right catalan nationalist/regionalist though. :P
Just landed in Barcelona this morning, so far nobody has asked me for my passport. :sleep:
Flag sellers must have made a killing lately.
Gf had her first conflict at work. All the rest wanted to shut down the place completely for the week.
Told her to talk to her boss. She'll be working from home tomorrow.
what's the reasoning behind the striking?
A show of force. The Generalitat has also made sure tomorrow is as chaotic as possible by giving a paid holiday to every public employee. :rolleyes:
SEAT (part of VW group) has already come against the strike. Devious little bastards. I need to build stock. :glare:
Well this situation sure has gone to shit.
I read a comment somewhere that simply this is simply old reflexes, the kind of response Spanish politicians learned from the time of dealing with the Basques. Only difference is, we now have the Internet and mobile cameras.
Is that a valid assessment?
Quote from: Tamas on October 02, 2017, 11:58:53 AM
I read a comment somewhere that simply this is simply old reflexes, the kind of response Spanish politicians learned from the time of dealing with the Basques. Only difference is, we now have the Internet and mobile cameras.
Is that a valid assessment?
It is not. Riot police actions in the Basque Country usually involved the regional police charging against small groups of actual rioters breaking/burning stuff.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 02, 2017, 10:32:05 AM
A show of force. The Generalitat has also made sure tomorrow is as chaotic as possible by giving a paid holiday to every public employee. :rolleyes:
SEAT (part of VW group) has already come against the strike. Devious little bastards. I need to build stock. :glare:
Apparently there's also a 10-day subway strike. What's the aim here? I really can't see the line linking "pissing everybody off" with "support for independence" :D
Fortunately I work from home and I don't have any more scheduled meetings this week.
The subway is always on strike anyway. :lol:
Quote from: Tamas on October 02, 2017, 11:58:53 AM
I read a comment somewhere that simply this is simply old reflexes, the kind of response Spanish politicians learned from the time of dealing with the Basques. Only difference is, we now have the Internet and mobile cameras.
Is that a valid assessment?
The Basques never did something like this. It's new territory.
It must be said that Euskadi is quite different. The situation there was orders of magnitude worse for decades. As in always looking behind your back and under your car.
The situation there is cooler now, still dominated by the business-friendly conservatives, whose votes Rajoy needs to pass the budget. And they do have control over taxes, which is what precipitated this whole thing.
If only the PP hadn't asked the courts to gut the 2006 autonomy-agreement then. That seems to be the event that sparks the events leading up to now.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 02, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
If only the PP hadn't asked the courts to gut the 2006 autonomy-agreement then. That seems to be the event that sparks the events leading up to now.
2006? You are kind of reaching there aren't you?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 02, 2017, 12:11:19 PM
The subway is always on strike anyway. :lol:
you inherited more than a King from the French?
Quote from: viper37 on October 02, 2017, 12:34:40 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 02, 2017, 12:11:19 PM
The subway is always on strike anyway. :lol:
you inherited more than a King from the French?
The French are hardly unique in Europe about this sort of thing.
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2017, 12:31:54 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 02, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
If only the PP hadn't asked the courts to gut the 2006 autonomy-agreement then. That seems to be the event that sparks the events leading up to now.
2006? You are kind of reaching there aren't you?
To which Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia do you think he should refer?
You do know the history of the 2006 statute, right? I mean, you'd not accuse CI of reaching unless you understood the situation and had a better alternative, right?
I did not mention any sort of Statute of Autonomy. You must be talking about somebody else's post and quoted mine by mistake.
Grumbler can't be bothered to wiki, so he's asking you to explain the statute for him. :P
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 02, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
If only the PP hadn't asked the courts to gut the 2006 autonomy-agreement then. That seems to be the event that sparks the events leading up to now.
Nah. It accelerated things, but separatism has been slowly rising for decades. It's all about media and education control.
If the Generalitat controlled its own source of revenue Spain would have far fewer cards right now to defuse the situation.
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2017, 12:43:01 PM
I did not mention any sort of Statute of Autonomy. You must be talking about somebody else's post and quoted mine by mistake.
Then you did the same to Crazy Ivan, so I guess that's all okay. He wasn't reaching, and you were accusing someone else, and just quoted him by mistake. Got it.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 02, 2017, 12:44:31 PM
Grumbler can't be bothered to wiki, so he's asking you to explain the statute for him. :P
Eddie can't read even the posts here, and so is asking if anyone can explain to him what I said. :P
I know a fair amount about the Autonomy Statute of 2006, and what happened to it when it was challenged in court (including the 2010 ruling that CI blames for the current troubles).
Quote from: grumbler on October 02, 2017, 01:58:36 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 02, 2017, 12:44:31 PM
Grumbler can't be bothered to wiki, so he's asking you to explain the statute for him. :P
Eddie can't read even the posts here, and so is asking if anyone can explain to him what I said. :P
Nah, I was running with my own interpretation, right or wrong. :P
So what's the word from Madrid so far? And in non-Catalonian medias? Seems they have gone awfully silent since yesterday.
When the government remains silent in Habsburg monarchies, that's when we should worry. Nothing for a while, we leave our guards down then boom! We are handed a Habsburg-signed ultimatum with 48 hours to comply or else.
They are mostly expecting to see whether the regional government moves for an UDI and react accordingly (suspending the autonomy).
The separatists seem a bit jittery about it, and have pushed back the session (initially scheduled for tomorrow) until the weekend, and are now calling for "international mediation" and such. They are aware that a full-out UDI would receive a cold shower from everywhere west of the Elbe. However, the diehards want it right now.
Quote from: Drakken on October 02, 2017, 02:39:39 PM
When the government remains silent in Habsburg monarchies, that's when we should worry. Nothing for a while, we leave our guards down then boom! We are handed a Habsburg-signed ultimatum with 48 hours to comply or else.
Yes but in Bourbon monarchies that just means they are going hunting and ignoring the situation.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 02, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 02, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
If only the PP hadn't asked the courts to gut the 2006 autonomy-agreement then. That seems to be the event that sparks the events leading up to now.
1) Nah. It accelerated things, but separatism has been slowly rising for decades. It's all about media and education control.
2)If the Generalitat controlled its own source of revenue Spain would have far fewer cards right now to defuse the situation.
1) yes, Spain has bit of a bad rep on that front, and within living memory too. And so what if separatism has been rising? Governing your own nation, as an independent state, is a legitimate political concept. As legitimate as not wanting to separate.
2) Alternatively: giving Catalonia the statute to which it has right to, as agreed on between Madrid and Barcelona, and confirmed by absolute majority via referendum might have been the better idea. Instead of gutting said agreement in what seems to be a case of 'cutting of the nose to spite the face'.
edit: just saying, but if a nation really wants to go independent there's nothing the mother-country can do except using ever harder means of repression. Not sure that is the way to go.
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 02, 2017, 02:39:39 PM
When the government remains silent in Habsburg monarchies, that's when we should worry. Nothing for a while, we leave our guards down then boom! We are handed a Habsburg-signed ultimatum with 48 hours to comply or else.
Yes but in Bourbon monarchies that just means they are going hunting and ignoring the situation.
Oh yeah. Silly me. :shutup:
Quote from: Valmy on October 02, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 02, 2017, 02:39:39 PM
When the government remains silent in Habsburg monarchies, that's when we should worry. Nothing for a while, we leave our guards down then boom! We are handed a Habsburg-signed ultimatum with 48 hours to comply or else.
Yes but in Bourbon monarchies that just means they are going hunting and ignoring the situation.
:lol: Somebody's binging
Versailles but pretending that they've just read books.
Most people are digesting the situation.
Stocks are down, driven by banks and especially Catalonian banks. Caixabank already took some steps regarding moving to Madrid after the last fake-referendum. I don't know about Sabadell. But I expect both to make the change swiftly if UDI is triggered. It's going to be hard as it is for them to stay liquid.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 02, 2017, 03:07:01 PM
Most people are digesting the situation.
Stocks are down, driven by banks and especially Catalonian banks. Caixabank already took some steps regarding moving to Madrid after the last fake-referendum. I don't know about Sabadell. But I expect both to make the change swiftly if UDI is triggered. It's going to be hard as it is for them to stay liquid.
Sabadell are pretty leveraged since they used the last banking crisis to go on a buying binge of depreciated assets to buy themselves the status of Spanish big bank. So they are rather vulnerable if things go pear-shaped.
So, general strike. Transportation is down and main roads into Barcelona have been cut by protesters. Tyres being burned. There's demos all over the place, tempers flaring high. Fortunately no violence yet.
My separatist friends have this inclination of spamming me with *every* communication released by the separatist orgs, and right now they are full on calling for avoiding any kind of violence. This tells me they are unsure about controlling the situation. I hope they do.
That's the kind of shit I used to read about other countries.
Oh boy a general strike in Barcelona is really going to intimidate all the cities that aren't Barcelona.
Spanish Interior Minister just declared a few moments ago that the Catalan government was "inciting rebellion". Article 155 invocation is around the corner.
Oh boy.
Quote from: chipwich on October 03, 2017, 05:56:27 AM
Oh boy a general strike in Barcelona is really going to intimidate all the cities that aren't Barcelona.
It's intimidating the non-separatists in Barcelona.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 07:55:22 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 03, 2017, 05:56:27 AM
Oh boy a general strike in Barcelona is really going to intimidate all the cities that aren't Barcelona.
It's intimidating the non-separatists in Barcelona.
I think you need to decide if independent Catalonia is a desirable outcome or not. If yes, stay and actively back and help the separatists, but if not, I'd be in a hurry trying to move my family out to other parts of Spain, temporarily. Sounds like things are going to get far worse before they normalise. I'd guess that even if the majority wants to de-escalate, the separatists have been radicalised too much for them to give up without some form of a fight.
Quote from: Tamas on October 03, 2017, 08:34:14 AM
I think you need to decide if independent Catalonia is a desirable outcome or not. If yes, stay and actively back and help the separatists, but if not, I'd be in a hurry trying to move my family out to other parts of Spain, temporarily. Sounds like things are going to get far worse before they normalise. I'd guess that even if the majority wants to de-escalate, the separatists have been radicalised too much for them to give up without some form of a fight.
It's true that the majority wants to de-escalate. Moderate nationalist papers are running like headless chickens screaming in panic, but the street has taken over, mobs are setting the political agenda now. What could go wrong?
It's damn obvious now that the nationalist establishment DOESN'T want an UDI, they'd probably like to issue some pompous declaration that manages to kick the can down the road, but the radicals would eat them alive if it looks like they may be backing down. Yes, they won a huge PR victory this Sunday due to Madrid's utter idiocy, but they have backed themselves into a corner too.
And yeah, independent Catalonia would be an economic and social disaster, so I'm trying to secure a Plan B if it comes to pass. And I really don't see how we can return to a peaceful status quo in the short term.
Yeah that's what I mean, it looks like an extreme, violent variant on the Brexit theme: the mob was given a chance to rule and they would not let that slip without a fight, which forces the hand of the leaders who are terrified of them and what they'd do with the country if the leaders tried to force through a sensible course of action.
It's the same here except the EU did not send in riot police.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 08:56:10 AM
It's damn obvious now that the nationalist establishment DOESN'T want an UDI, they'd probably like to issue some pompous declaration that manages to kick the can down the road, but the radicals would eat them alive if it looks like they may be backing down. Yes, they won a huge PR victory this Sunday due to Madrid's utter idiocy, but they have backed themselves into a corner too.
Well, duh. Like all moderates in secessionist movements, they naively expected their adversary to just roll down, bow to "popular will", admit defeat, and start negotiating terms under their enlightened, rational leadership.
Now they have lost all control of the agenda. No UDI now will mean the de-facto end of Catalonia autonomy. Madrid is not only refusing to back down, they are actually upping the ante calling them rebels now - a code word for "we will be using force to utterly crush you if you do not back down". They know no one in the EU will come to their help because many of their partners have their own nationalist movements to deal with, so they are starting to see the writing on the wall and that they are risking to lose everything.
My fear is that they will see an UDI as the only gamble for survival, seeking to provoke the suspension of the autonomy and with that launch more mobs into the streets. Then the only way for Madrid to re-assert control is through violence, and with that violence will come more calls for international intervention.
Or Madrid can just sit it out and use soft power (afterall, they control the money flows). But after Sunday I'm pretty convinced this administration doesn't have that coolness.
They should have been cool all along and only given the secessionists air to punch at. Their system seemed ideal to do just that. I guess it was that rather rash judge that set them off. Now Catalonia is part of the rebel alliance and a traitor.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 09:47:42 AM
Or Madrid can just sit it out and use soft power (afterall, they control the money flows). But after Sunday I'm pretty convinced this administration doesn't have that coolness.
This same misconception would be happening on Madrid's side: They'd expect the separatists to turn on their backs and surrender just because the money would not be entering anymore.
Problem is that if Madrid simply closes the money flow, UDI becomes unavoidable because Catalonia will have no other option but to repatriate their taxation points and start doing their own taxation, and this means independence since by the Constitution autonomous regions have no power of taxation. Or, they could borrow money on international markets waging on international recognition of their independence (good luck with that).
They are now on illegal grounds, why not go full way? In for the rope for a penny...
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2017, 09:50:53 AM
They should have been cool all along and only given the secessionists air to punch at. Their system seemed ideal to do just that. I guess it was that rather rash judge that set them off. Now Catalonia is part of the rebel alliance and a traitor.
President Rajoy did just that during the previous secession vote in 2014 (really, this is just fucking Groundhog Day sometimes), allowing it to happen without sending in the police, and letting judges dish out the appropriate punishments afterwards (the previous nationalist government was all fined and disqualified from office). And... it worked, the vote produced the same numbers as this one and it was ignored by everybody. But he came under big pressure from hardcore conservative quarters for allowing the vote to happen at all.
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 09:47:42 AM
Or Madrid can just sit it out and use soft power (afterall, they control the money flows). But after Sunday I'm pretty convinced this administration doesn't have that coolness.
This same misconception would be happening on Madrid's side: They'd expect the separatists to turn on their backs and surrender just because the money would not be entering anymore.
Problem is that if Madrid simply closes the money flow, UDI becomes unavoidable because Catalonia will have no other option but to repatriate their taxation points and start doing their own taxation, and this means independence - or borrow money.
They are now on illegal grounds, why not go full way? In for the rope for a penny...
They can't do that. Madrid controls 90% of taxation at all points of the process (including the actual collection). Catalonia would need to deploy a tax collection structure (which isn't ready at all) and convince everybody to pay taxes to them instead of Madrid. And setting everything up is a process that takes months that they wouldn't have. Borrowing money is a non-option with the regional government having a junk bond rating. They can go and seize state assets, but then we're at Fort Sumter.
But I don't think this Madrid administration would play it cool.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 10:08:38 AM
They can't do that. Madrid controls 90% of taxation at all points of the process (including the actual collection). Catalonia would need to deploy a tax collection structure (which isn't ready at all) and convince everybody to pay taxes to them instead of Madrid. And setting everything up is a process that takes months that they wouldn't have. Borrowing money is a non-option with the regional government having a junk bond rating. They can go and seize state assets, but then we're at Fort Sumter.
But I don't think this Madrid administration would play it cool.
If they go for UDI, they can - Constitution would no longer apply in Catalonia. The government will self-attribute the mandate to tax its citizens and establish its tax collection structure. In the short term, this means seize all state Spanish assets on the Catalonian soil - including tax collection structures.
I am not saying they will succeed. But if they proclaim an UDI they either go all the way or it remains empty words. Sovereignty - and recognition - requires control and assertion of power over a given territory.
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 10:14:03 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 10:08:38 AM
They can't do that. Madrid controls 90% of taxation at all points of the process (including the actual collection). Catalonia would need to deploy a tax collection structure (which isn't ready at all) and convince everybody to pay taxes to them instead of Madrid. And setting everything up is a process that takes months that they wouldn't have. Borrowing money is a non-option with the regional government having a junk bond rating. They can go and seize state assets, but then we're at Fort Sumter.
But I don't think this Madrid administration would play it cool.
If they go for UDI, they can - Constitution would no longer apply in Catalonia. The government will self-attribute the mandate to tax its citizens and establish its tax collection structure. In the short term, this means seize all state Spanish assets on the Catalonian soil - including tax collection structures.
This implies violence starting on the separatist side - these buildings are protected by Spanish police -, which renders the "I'm oppressed please help!" angle moot. The only way out for separatists is to provoke an international intervention that imposes a solution favorable to them. To me, that only happens if they bait Madrid into overreacting again.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 10:19:49 AM
This implies violence starting on the separatist side - these buildings are protected by Spanish police -, which renders the "I'm oppressed please help!" angle moot. The only way out for separatists is to provoke an international intervention that imposes a solution favorable to them.
Oh, I agree with you on this. But then, there is no UDI and the separatists know that. UDI means booting the Spanish out of Catalonia.
International intervention will not come and Madrid knows that. Madrid's position is that states have the inherent right to protect their territorial integrity. I am sure Rajoy has had plenty of conversations with other members of the EU following Sunday. If he puffs his chest like this, it is because he is sure that no one will dare to condemn Spain to the point of intervening in its domestic affairs. The current silence of other EU countries over the whole issue is well damning enough.
What the separatists do not realize, is that international law does not recognize UDIs except in cases of extreme circumstances or gross human rights violation. UDIs are
not permitted by international law, except backed by force or a consensus of international powers. While "violently" repressed, everyone except Catalonian separatists agrees that Sunday's referendum was a worthless sham. No one will come to their aid unless they become willing partners to a civil war party.
Bad timing for Catalunya really. Brexit is occupying Europe's attention at the moment and they can't be dealing with this.
Independent Catalunya in the EU is perfectly viable. Catalunya cut off from Spain and the rest of Europe...haha no.
Though apparently there are mutterings from idiots about them hooking up with the UK and Barcelona playing in the premier league :lol:
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
Brexit is occupying Europe's attention at the moment
That really is not my impression. The EU negotiators are quite clearly holding the UK by the balls, can't see EU officials sweating over that one.
Quote from: Tamas on October 03, 2017, 11:06:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
Brexit is occupying Europe's attention at the moment
That really is not my impression. The EU negotiators are quite clearly holding the UK by the balls, can't see EU officials sweating over that one.
OK. Rephrase.
As far as the EU is concerned with exceptional incidents (not very. Most of their time goes to standard operations), Brexit is occupying their attention.
And yep. The EU has the UK by the balls...however it is doing this whilst the UK dangles off the edge of a cliff. It'd rather not drop the UK as much as the UK is trying its best to be dropped.
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
Though apparently there are mutterings from idiots about them hooking up with the UK and Barcelona playing in the premier league :lol:
This calls for a poll!
Last time we allied with the Brits in a conflict against the rest of Spain they left us in the lurch.
There are already videos circulating of violence between teenagers from both sides. Plus any protracted strike will lead to separatist violence.
By cutting the supply lines (highways) the movement has managed to halt the production of recently launched Ibiza and Arona at Seat Martorell. Ahh, to be a fly on the wall when Puigdemont got the call from Herr Volkswagen... :lol:
Nissan is also partially stopped, and many Tier 1s and 2s probably share the same fate. Auto industry makes up 8% of Catalonia's GDP. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
Caixabank, Bank Sabadell, Gas Natural/Fenosa and every other company with big interests in Spain are probably enacting contingency plans as we speak to move their operations and taxes to Madrid or elsewhere in the EU. Grifols, for many years an independentist rolemodel, already shifted their financial operations to Ireland.
I really don't think the regional government controls this anymore. The separatist orgs have taken over. These frantic calls are surely happening, but are probably being answered with shrugging of shoulders.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 12:32:01 PM
I really don't think the regional government controls this anymore. The separatist orgs have taken over. These frantic calls are surely happening, but are probably being answered with shrugging of shoulders.
If you just shrug your shoulders when Herr Volkswagen is chewing your ass, you have a BIG problem.
[edit] To further elaborate, and speaking from personal professional experience: VW is not going to be that mad if you have a problem, as long as you have a clear action plan behind it. Shit happens.
But if you have no control over the situation, they will start looking for a plan B. You really don't want to be in that position.
Given the circumstances and Catalonia's suicide as a state with any relevant power, I vote for renaming this thread The shit jumps and falls manly on the fan.
Spanish ETF is remarkably unaffected. Down maybe 2%.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
How many have accepted to pay this economic price to leave a liberal democracy?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 01:54:55 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
How many have accepted to pay this economic price to leave a liberal democracy?
We live under a fascist dictatorship, haven't you heard?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 01:54:55 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
How many have accepted to pay this economic price to leave a liberal democracy?
irrelevant.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 02:20:41 PM
We live under a fascist dictatorship, haven't you heard?
Have you checked on Generalissimo Francisco Franco lately? Last time we enquired about his health, long time ago, he was still dead. We have forgotten him a bit since then, so maybe he is feeling better?
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 02:32:04 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 02:20:41 PM
We live under a fascist dictatorship, haven't you heard?
Have you checked on Generalissimo Francisco Franco lately? Last time we enquired about his health, long time ago, he was still dead. We have forgotten him a bit since then, so maybe he is feeling better?
I love that bit. :)
The king just appeared on TV to give a speech. This is rather momentous, since it only had happened twice since we became a democracy - always on big national crises. The Spanish monarchy usually keeps a low profile.
Tough speech - as tough as his limited Constitutional role allows him, that is - but he certainly drew a line in the sand. Madrid's not gonna back down from this, not after putting the king's reputation on the line.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 02:45:52 PM
The king just appeared on TV to give a speech. This is rather momentous, since it only had happened twice since we became a democracy - always on big national crises.
Tough speech - as tough as his limited Constitutional role allows him, that is - but he certainly drew a line in the sand. Madrid's not gonna back down from this, not after putting the king's reputation on the line.
Ay, joder. :huh:
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 01:54:55 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
How many have accepted to pay this economic price to leave a liberal democracy?
Americans were living in a form of democracy. For 1776, it was a pretty liberal democracy for a lot of things. Much more thant was granted to other colonies. Yet, they risked their economic future, and for many years, Americans fled to Canada in search of better economic opportunities.
Algeria's situation by 1954 was similar to that of the American colony, but they jeopardized their future in waging war for independance.
Brexit was the UK leaving the European Union, a democracy in its own.
Scotland tried to leave the UK, a liberal democracy.
If we remove the clause "leaving a liberal democracy" you would find many seperatist movements in history that left one regime for another similar regime. Many of the Ex USSR republics who became independant do not have any more democracy than what they had inside the USSR. So, lots of people trade one regime for another identical/similar, for various reasons.
From CNN:
QuoteIn a televised statement, King Felipe said the referendum's organizers had jeopardized national stability. "With their decisions, they have systematically undermined the rules approved legally and legitimately, showing an unacceptable disloyalty towards the powers of the state -- a state that represents Catalan interests," he said.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
Except all the ones that didn't. But why would nationalists care? Individual people and their welfare means nothing to you.
Hey Viper the American Revolution was not about independence until after the war had been going on for a year.
Every other example either proves you wrong, Scotland decided to stay in the UK, or is total BS.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2017, 03:05:03 PM
Hey Viper the American Revolution was not about independence until after the war had been going on for a year.
Sure they did not declared independance. They only expelled all Royal officials from the colony and raised an army to fight the British. Totally different. People were fighting to maintain good relations with the British King for a year?
C'mon.
Next thing, you'll tell me the Southerners did not rebel to protect slavery until later in the war?
Quote
Every other example either proves you wrong, Scotland decided to stay in the UK, or is total BS.
they wanted to leave. so they were willing to jeopardize their economic future.
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 02:53:11 PM
From CNN:
QuoteIn a televised statement, King Felipe said the referendum's organizers had jeopardized national stability. "With their decisions, they have systematically undermined the rules approved legally and legitimately, showing an unacceptable disloyalty towards the powers of the state -- a state that represents Catalan interests," he said.
It's going to get worst, imho.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2017, 03:05:03 PM
Every other example either proves you wrong, Scotland decided to stay in the UK, or is total BS.
Algeria is way messed up nowadays, I even heard Algerians discussing once the what if Algeria stays French with some autonomy status.
Even for Algeria with their lunatic socialist policies afterwards? Though given how troublesome to assimilate Algerians in France are, France actually saved its future, instead of jeopardizing it, by getting rid of even more Algerians. De Gaulle had no illusions in this matter and would pass as racist nowadays with its (unofficial) thoughts on the matter.
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 02:53:11 PM
From CNN:
QuoteIn a televised statement, King Felipe said the referendum's organizers had jeopardized national stability. "With their decisions, they have systematically undermined the rules approved legally and legitimately, showing an unacceptable disloyalty towards the powers of the state -- a state that represents Catalan interests," he said.
This... feels like a mistake.
he's gotta say something.
Looks bad if the head of state won't speak up for the state.
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 03:45:44 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 02:53:11 PM
From CNN:
QuoteIn a televised statement, King Felipe said the referendum's organizers had jeopardized national stability. "With their decisions, they have systematically undermined the rules approved legally and legitimately, showing an unacceptable disloyalty towards the powers of the state -- a state that represents Catalan interests," he said.
This... feels like a mistake.
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
kind of late for the king to speak out against independence once they've already declared independence :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
Wasn't the Scotland referendum a real referendum?
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2017, 04:12:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
Wasn't the Scotland referendum a real referendum?
Brexit was supposed to be an opinion poll...
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
The king of spain must have felt really strongly. He probably canceled an elephant hunt or something.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 03, 2017, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
The king of spain must have felt really strongly. He probably canceled an elephant hunt or something.
The elephant hunter was his dad. He's a rare non-hunting Bourbon.
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2017, 04:16:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2017, 04:12:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
Wasn't the Scotland referendum a real referendum?
Brexit was supposed to be an opinion poll...
And AFAIK that one didn't "undermine the rules approved legally and legitimately" either.
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
The Queen would have said something similar if Scotland had declared UDI. :P
Except she didn't say anything like this during the Scots referendum. And the Catalans, to date, haven't declared independence.
I was trying to press one of your plaid buttons, get you all conflicted, hence the :P
:P
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
East Germany reunited for among others economic reasons.
From BBC:
Quote
In his first interview since the referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".
When asked what he would do if the Spanish government were to intervene and take control of Catalonia's government, Mr Puigdemont said it would be "an error which changes everything".
Mr Puigdemont said there was currently no contact between the government in Madrid and his devolved administration.
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 04:25:49 PM
From BBC:
Quote
In his first interview since the referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".
When asked what he would do if the Spanish government were to intervene and take control of Catalonia's government, Mr Puigdemont said it would be "an error which changes everything".
Mr Puigdemont said there was currently no contact between the government in Madrid and his devolved administration.
I guess unilateral independence changes nothing then! :hmm:
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 03:45:44 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 02:53:11 PM
From CNN:
QuoteIn a televised statement, King Felipe said the referendum's organizers had jeopardized national stability. "With their decisions, they have systematically undermined the rules approved legally and legitimately, showing an unacceptable disloyalty towards the powers of the state -- a state that represents Catalan interests," he said.
This... feels like a mistake.
I think it is in this context. The King should have tried a polite way to diffuse the situation, not assign blame to one side in public. In private, he could have scolded the independantists, even insulted them. But in public like that, it will only give more credence to the radicals and isolate the moderates.
I hope this does not turn into a civil war, but I fear it's leading to that. :(
You know Kings cannot speak without the advice of their Prime Ministers, right Viper?
Quote from: Zanza on October 03, 2017, 04:25:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 03, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
. With very narrow margins, separatists are putting in jeopardy their economic future.
I cannot think of many countries that haven't been willing to pay the economic price to either achieve their independence, or to keep it.
East Germany reunited for among others economic reasons.
they didn't exactly declare independance of their own volition...
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
You know Kings cannot speak without the advice of their Prime Ministers, right Viper?
No, I don't. I don't know the Spanish political system, I only studied the French, American and German political system in school. Not that I remember that much of the German system anyway.
But he could have refused to speak or advised the PM on doing something else.
And I'm not taking any sides eithers. All I hope for is a peaceful resolution of the current troubles, without blood.
The King's speeches are all monitored by the government. He won't say anything that he doesn't want to say, but he also won't say anything that the government doesn't want him to say.
How bad is reaction to this from the regular Spanish?
Are the Spanish version of the brexiters waving their sabres and baying for blood? How bad could it get if the Catalans decide to go all out for UDI?
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
You know Kings cannot speak without the advice of their Prime Ministers, right Viper?
Is this a biological defect resulting from all the inbreeding?
Quote from: Drakken on October 03, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
You know Kings cannot speak without the advice of their Prime Ministers, right Viper?
Usually Kings can speak quite freely to Prime Ministers behind the scenes however.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 04:23:34 PM
The elephant hunter was his dad. He's a rare non-hunting Bourbon.
Or so he wants you to think. Seems he is interested in hunting Catalans. :frog:
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2017, 04:47:54 PM
Usually Kings can speak quite freely to Prime Ministers behind the scenes however.
Yep, and he would be pretty stupid to side with the Catalans' sedition here.
I'm more than a bit reminded of some of the forces at work within Northern Ireland during 68-69.
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2017, 04:47:20 PM
How bad is reaction to this from the regular Spanish?
Are the Spanish version of the brexiters waving their sabres and baying for blood? How bad could it get if the Catalans decide to go all out for UDI?
A few are, but most of us would rather just see Puigdemont & Co imprisoned and the Mossos and TV3 dissolved.
Regarding the economic situation, the biggest Catalonian bank (Caixabank) has swiftly reacted to their employees taking Barcelona's main artery yesterday by hinting to abandon ship if UDI is called. Sabadell (the second largest bank) followed suit not long after that. Both must be hemorrhaging deposits.
Myself I just deposited part of my savings in Matressbank. Will probably move the rest to ING, which should be safe from a bank run.
Multinational corps would be smart to move their shit out of Catalonia regardless of what happened now.
Quote from: celedhring on October 03, 2017, 06:05:07 PM
Myself I just deposited part of my savings in Matressbank. Will probably move the rest to ING, which should be safe from a bank run.
I hope you at least made that deposit in bills, otherwise it might get uncomfortable.
The Spanish National Audience (a high court that deals with certain crimes against the state, terrorism, and drug cartels), has leveled sedition charges against the commander of the Catalan regional police and the leaders of the two main separatist organizations.
My "we're all doomed"-meter has jumped another notch.
The only good thing of this whole clusterfuck is that it's made me aware of Heather Nauert. She can intervene in Catalan affairs (mine in particular) any time she wants.
Bank run! The largest Catalan bank (Caixabank), in turn the 3rd largest Spanish bank, has lost the equivalent of 33% of 2017's new deposits in the last 30 days. Both them and BancSabadell (second largest Catalan bank, and 4th largest Spanish bank) are cratering in the stock market.
The Spanish finance minister has come out and said that "Catalans don't need to fear for their savings" which to me means I should. :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2017, 11:19:05 AM
Bank run! The largest Catalan bank (Caixabank), in turn the 3rd largest Spanish bank, has lost the equivalent of 33% of 2017's new deposits in the last 30 days. Both them and BancSabadell (second largest Catalan bank, and 4th largest Spanish bank) are cratering in the stock market.
The Spanish finance minister has come out and said that "Catalans don't need to fear for their savings" which to me means I should. :lol:
So how big are Mataláixa bank deposits among independentists and/or nationalists?
:blush:
Another 3% drop in the overall market. Get your shit straight Spaniards. :glare:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 04, 2017, 11:35:59 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2017, 11:19:05 AM
Bank run! The largest Catalan bank (Caixabank), in turn the 3rd largest Spanish bank, has lost the equivalent of 33% of 2017's new deposits in the last 30 days. Both them and BancSabadell (second largest Catalan bank, and 4th largest Spanish bank) are cratering in the stock market.
The Spanish finance minister has come out and said that "Catalans don't need to fear for their savings" which to me means I should. :lol:
So how big are Mataláixa bank deposits among independentists and/or nationalists?
:blush:
They are by far the biggest players in the region. However, they also have (fortunately for them) interests outside Catalonia, acquired after the banking debacle a while back.
They have three problems here: first political. If they do nothing, they lose business from the rest of Spain (there are calls for boicots of Catalonian firms). If they do move to Madrid, they might lose business from Catalonians (their core market).
Second: liquidity. Nobody wants to have funds in a bank that might collapse at any second now. And if it still happens to be located at an independent Barcelona when that happens they would fall out of the Spanish deposit guarantee scheme.
Third: exposure. Since a Catalonian UDI is seen as an economic disaster, those firms more exposed to business in Catalonia are liable to suffer.
Celed, can you give us the highlights of Puigdemont's speech? All I got was a call to dialogue.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 04, 2017, 01:44:52 PM
They have three problems here: first political. If they do nothing, they lose business from the rest of Spain (there are calls for boicots of Catalonian firms). If they do move to Madrid, they might lose business from Catalonians (their core market).
Is the rest of Spain trying to drive Catalans away? The message that should be sent out now is how much TROS (the Rest of Spain)
loves Catalonia. Hell set up a massive counter-protest in Barcelona with people from all over Spain waving Spanish AND Catalan flags.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 04, 2017, 02:42:55 PM
Celed, can you give us the highlights of Puigdemont's speech? All I got was a call to dialogue.
We're peaceful, we're being misrepresented to the public opinion outside of Catalonia, the king is nasty, we want negotiation but we intend to implement the results of the referendum.
There's two ways of seeing it:
1) He's just posturing since Madrid will reject any negotiation that doesn't involve explicit renounciation of independence (which he won't give).
or
2) He's shitting bricks after the EU gave him the cold shoulder and the king pretty much promised no quarter, and wants a way to gain time and put off the UDI.
I'm leaning for 1), but no doubt there are quite a few in the separatist side that are at 2)
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 02:54:54 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 04, 2017, 01:44:52 PM
They have three problems here: first political. If they do nothing, they lose business from the rest of Spain (there are calls for boicots of Catalonian firms). If they do move to Madrid, they might lose business from Catalonians (their core market).
Is the rest of Spain trying to drive Catalans away? The message that should be sent out now is how much TROS (the Rest of Spain) loves Catalonia. Hell set up a massive counter-protest in Barcelona with people from all over Spain waving Spanish AND Catalan flags.
They've been trying that and it hasn't done much. When love fails, self-interest triumphs.
There's an unionist demo scheduled this sunday, one day before the UDI. These demos have always bombed (even though roughly half the population votes for different shades of unionism), we'll see what happens now.
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 02:54:54 PM
Is the rest of Spain trying to drive Catalans away? The message that should be sent out now is how much TROS (the Rest of Spain) loves Catalonia. Hell set up a massive counter-protest in Barcelona with people from all over Spain waving Spanish AND Catalan flags.
Why? The referendum is done, there is nothing left for the people to decide, and the Catalan government already said to Madrid and the King to go f--- themselves. They are in a state of apprehended rebellion and the UDI is almost set in motion. :huh:
What purpose would this serve? Those million-or-so in the streets of Barcelona have already decided they want to separate AND they control the streets.
Quote from: Drakken on October 04, 2017, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 02:54:54 PM
Is the rest of Spain trying to drive Catalans away? The message that should be sent out now is how much TROS (the Rest of Spain) loves Catalonia. Hell set up a massive counter-protest in Barcelona with people from all over Spain waving Spanish AND Catalan flags.
Why? The Referendum is done and the Catalan government already said to Madrid and the King to go f--- themselves. They are in a state of apprehended rebellion and the UDI is almost set in motion. :huh:
What purpose would this serve? Those millions in the streets of Barcelona have already decided they want to separate AND they control the streets.
If the Catalans go the route of a UDI the matter is in part now up to world opinion. If the Catalans can demonstrate to the world they have a distinct community that is united in its desire to be independent, then that helps their cause. If instead the world sees that Catalan public opinion is divided on the issue, that hurts their cause.
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2017, 02:58:41 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 04, 2017, 02:42:55 PM
Celed, can you give us the highlights of Puigdemont's speech? All I got was a call to dialogue.
We're peaceful, we're being misrepresented to the public opinion outside of Catalonia, the king is nasty, we want negotiation but we intend to implement the results of the referendum.
There's two ways of seeing it:
1) He's just posturing since Madrid will reject any negotiation that doesn't involve explicit renounciation of independence (which he won't give).
or
2) He's shitting bricks after the EU gave him the cold shoulder and the king pretty much promised no quarter, and wants a way to gain time and put off the UDI.
I'm leaning for 1), but no doubt there are quite a few in the separatist side that are at 2)
Since the Audiencia Nacional has already decreed and delivered an order of arrest for all members of the Catalan government and the head of the Mossos, what is the reason stopping Madrid for going in already to arrest them?
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:12:58 PM
If the Catalans go the route of a UDI the matter is in part now up to world opinion. If the Catalans can demonstrate to the world they have a distinct community that is united in its desire to be independent, then that helps their cause. If instead the world sees that Catalan public opinion is divided on the issue, that hurts their cause.
They only need to look at the last elections to see that.
Quote from: Drakken on October 04, 2017, 03:14:39 PM
Since the Audiencia Nacional has already decreed and delivered an order of arrest for all members of the Catalan government and the head of the Mossos, what is the reason stopping Madrid for going in already to arrest them?
That's... not what's happened? There's not an outstanding arrest order for anybody, they are just under investigation and will be summoned by the Audiencia Nacional. *If* they refuse to cooperate, then the arrest warrant goes out.
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:12:58 PM
If the Catalans go the route of a UDI the matter is in part now up to world opinion. If the Catalans can demonstrate to the world they have a distinct community that is united in its desire to be independent, then that helps their cause. If instead the world sees that Catalan public opinion is divided on the issue, that hurts their cause.
They are divided - all polls show that the majority of Catalans do not want independence. That they stay home and stay silent because they fear repercussions does not mean they are not there.
All they have demonstrated is that a minority has hijacked both due processes, constitutional law, and international law for their own, minority-held objective of going for independence, come hell and high water. They are literally playing with the lives of Catalans in face of being obviously on the wrong side of both law and customs.
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2017, 03:17:43 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 04, 2017, 03:14:39 PM
Since the Audiencia Nacional has already decreed and delivered an order of arrest for all members of the Catalan government and the head of the Mossos, what is the reason stopping Madrid for going in already to arrest them?
That's... not what's happened? There's not an outstanding arrest order for anybody, they are just under investigation and will be summoned by the Audiencia Nacional. *If* they refuse to cooperate, then the arrest warrant goes out.
From your own quote:
QuoteThe Spanish National Audience (a high court that deals with certain crimes against the state, terrorism, and drug cartels), has leveled sedition charges against the commander of the Catalan regional police and the leaders of the two main separatist organizations.
Quote from: Drakken on October 04, 2017, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:12:58 PM
If the Catalans go the route of a UDI the matter is in part now up to world opinion. If the Catalans can demonstrate to the world they have a distinct community that is united in its desire to be independent, then that helps their cause. If instead the world sees that Catalan public opinion is divided on the issue, that hurts their cause.
They are divided - all polls show that the majority of Catalans do not want independence. That they stay home and stay silent because they fear repercussions does not mean they are not there.
All they have demonstrated is that a minority has hijacked both due processes, constitutional law, and international law for their own, minority-held objective of going for independence, come hell and high water. They are literally playing with the lives of Catalans in face of being obviously on the wrong side of both law and customs.
But they also just held a referendum with 90% voting for independence.
Quote from: Drakken on October 04, 2017, 03:19:21 PM
From your own quote:
QuoteThe Spanish National Audience (a high court that deals with certain crimes against the state, terrorism, and drug cartels), has leveled sedition charges against the commander of the Catalan regional police and the leaders of the two main separatist organizations.
Yeah, and they have been summoned to the Audiencia for their depositions. There won't be any arrests at this stage unless they refuse to cooperate with justice. Arresting people is relatively exceptional in the Spanish justice system, unless the accused is expected to make a run for it. That won't happen with these people.
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
But they also just held a referendum with 90% voting for independence.
Which was a total sham. There's a bunch of precincts that had over 100% turnout :lol:
Actual elections show separatist parties topping at 48%. Which is a fucking lot and which has to be addressed somehow, but not to the point of imposing illegal independence on the rest of us.
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
But they also just held a referendum with 90% voting for independence.
A sham referendum that was boycotted by 60% of the electorate. That proves nothing. The only thing that would prove that point would be to call for elections in Catalonia and get a truly massive win.
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2017, 03:26:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
But they also just held a referendum with 90% voting for independence.
Which was a total sham. There's a bunch of precincts that had over 100% turnout :lol:
Actual elections show separatist parties topping at 48%. Which is a fucking lot and which has to be addressed somehow, but not to the point of imposing illegal independence on the rest of us.
In your opinion, assuming the Spanish government did not send in the police, the army, called Catalan politicians traitors and secessionists, would the result have been that high? Could the seperatist parties even muster 48% of the vote?
Honest question.
Quote from: viper37 on October 04, 2017, 04:14:34 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2017, 03:26:55 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 04, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
But they also just held a referendum with 90% voting for independence.
Which was a total sham. There's a bunch of precincts that had over 100% turnout :lol:
Actual elections show separatist parties topping at 48%. Which is a fucking lot and which has to be addressed somehow, but not to the point of imposing illegal independence on the rest of us.
In your opinion, assuming the Spanish government did not send in the police, the army, called Catalan politicians traitors and secessionists, would the result have been that high? Could the seperatist parties even muster 48% of the vote?
They achieved that without nothing of the above happening. I'm talking about the 2012 and 2015 elections. They have a consistent ceiling of 1,800,000-1,900,000 votes.
Looks like BancSabadell is going to up sticks. They have a board meeting this afternoon with the relocation on the table.
Maybe the solution to our conflict is becoming poor enough so that we remove the whole "wealthy people nationalism" aspect.
I don't know the Spanish system. I guess it is more democratic so this rule applies less there.... But in the UK it's a big mistake to read support for nationalist parties at elections as support for independence (or the opposite).
My company is doubling down on its Barcelona operations. No sign of a course change; a big move of jobs there has been going on for a while.
When independence becomes the #1 issue in regional politics, I'd say it's not a big mistake to read it that way. In 2015 the nationalist parties (all of them) campaigned on a platform of an UDI if they reached 50%+1 of the vote. They got 48%.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/spanish-pm-mariano-rajoy-warns-of-greater-harm-from-catalonia-independence-plans
QuoteSpain suspends Catalan parliament session in attempt to block independence
Spain's constitutional court has suspended a Catalan parliament session planned for Monday in an attempt to block an expected declaration of independence by the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont.
Any truth to this? :lol:
(https://i.imgur.com/ke83xTb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2017, 08:45:33 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/spanish-pm-mariano-rajoy-warns-of-greater-harm-from-catalonia-independence-plans
QuoteSpain suspends Catalan parliament session in attempt to block independence
Spain's constitutional court has suspended a Catalan parliament session planned for Monday in an attempt to block an expected declaration of independence by the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont.
From the same article:
QuoteSpeaking ahead of Thursday's court decision, the Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, warned that the situation could escalate further if the Catalan government carried on the path of a unilateral declaration.
"Is there a solution? Yes, there is," Rajoy told the Spanish news agency Efe. "And the best one would be a return to legality and the swiftest possible confirmation that there won't be a unilateral independence declaration, because that way still greater harm could be avoided."
Quote from: Tyr on October 05, 2017, 09:05:22 AM
Any truth to this? :lol:
(https://i.imgur.com/ke83xTb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Not that I know. Tractors were used to close off roads this tuesday during the strike, but haven't heard any story of police being "trapped".
This is not the US, but fucking around with the police is hardly a good idea around here either.
I know it's a tense situation and all, but that's kinda funny whether or not it's true.
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2017, 11:08:50 AM
I know it's a tense situation and all, but that's kinda funny whether or not it's true.
I think that is the point. A good story will spread regardless of whether or not it is true and will help bolster separatist morale.
Pretty sure that's a Russian bot thing though. I can't see why Catalan separatists would spread memes in English. Plus my separatist friends constantly flood my social media timelines with that stuff (god, are they annoying), and it's the first time I see that one.
Any nasty arguments with your separatist buddies Celery?
Madrid has officially announced it rejected any and all calls for mediation, without the Catalan government publicly backing down first and renouncing going for UDI.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2017, 11:37:33 AM
Any nasty arguments with your separatist buddies Celery?
Yeah. Several. The atmosphere around here is comparable to Venus' at this point.
(https://i.imgur.com/razsKa6.png)
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 11:33:00 AM
Pretty sure that's a Russian bot thing though. I can't see why Catalan separatists would spread memes in English. Plus my separatist friends constantly flood my social media timelines with that stuff (god, are they annoying), and it's the first time I see that one.
They seem to be going pretty hard to get international support.
My Scottish seperatist friends are really up for Catalan independence
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 11:33:00 AM
Pretty sure that's a Russian bot thing though. I can't see why Catalan separatists would spread memes in English.
I guess maybe the same reason they have protest signs in English. Trying to gain international sympathy.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 11:33:00 AM
Pretty sure that's a Russian bot thing though.
that's a likely possibility. Honestly, you can't really prevent cops for re-entering the country by blockading the road with a tractor. They arrest the driver(s), call a towing and clear the way. Gone in 60 minutes.
Caixabank's board meeting tomorrow to debate relocation out of Catalonia. That's Catalonia's largest company.
See "This is fine" meme above.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 12:40:38 PM
Caixabank's board meeting tomorrow to debate relocation out of Catalonia. That's Catalonia's largest company.
See "This is fine" meme above.
https://www.ft.com/content/f09c8cb3-918d-3877-8f32-b8173ebc0fef?mhq5j=e7
I understand the move, they don't have much choice to protect their clients by legally moving the HQ out of there but still keeping the physical HQ where they are.
I'm surprised they're not already registered in Andorra...
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 12:17:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2017, 11:37:33 AM
Any nasty arguments with your separatist buddies Celery?
Yeah. Several. The atmosphere around here is comparable to Venus' at this point.
One of my Catalonian colleagues - a moderate unionist much like Celed - has had to unfriend half his contacts in Facebook and leave many of his Whatsapp groups. He's really touchy about this stuff by now.
Hey Celed - are you Catalan yourself, or are you an import from somewhere else in the country?
My girlfriend is in a constant state of disbelief at work. All her coworkers are separatists, and they have been complaining all week about the violence, repression and how Spain treats them so poorly, how everything is so chaotic. It drives her nuts. They even said that it was worse than Venezuela (probably repeating something they heard or read in TV). That really pissed her off. :lol:
She told them they ought to spend a week in Venezuela themselves and report later. She told them about how here halfsis got shot while demonstrating, how she couldn't even get out of the building for days the last time she was there, how everyone has lost over 15 pounds and how diphtheria and malaria are coming back thanks to food and medicine scarcity. I don't think she convinced any one of them though.
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2017, 01:04:46 PM
Hey Celed - are you Catalan yourself, or are you an import from somewhere else in the country?
Catalan born and bred. All my close family are separatists.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:19:35 AM
Looks like BancSabadell is going to up sticks. They have a board meeting this afternoon with the relocation on the table.
Maybe the solution to our conflict is becoming poor enough so that we remove the whole "wealthy people nationalism" aspect.
They have approved the move to Alicante. Presumably tomorrow Caixabank will follow suit.
It seems the government is studying a decree that would allow businesses to move out of Catalonia (within Spain) without consulting with their shareholders. Apparently the Socialists will support it.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 05, 2017, 01:05:27 PM
My girlfriend is in a constant state of disbelief at work. All her coworkers are separatists, and they have been complaining all week about the violence, repression and how Spain treats them so poorly, how everything is so chaotic. It drives her nuts. They even said that it was worse than Venezuela (probably repeating something they heard or read in TV). That really pissed her off. :lol:
She told them they ought to spend a week in Venezuela themselves and report later. She told them about how here halfsis got shot while demonstrating, how she couldn't even get out of the building for days the last time she was there, how everyone has lost over 15 pounds and how diphtheria and malaria are coming back thanks to food and medicine scarcity. I don't think she convinced any one of them though.
Given the circumstances, for her security, can she afford to leave Catalonia before things come to shove?
There are no guarantees that it won't degenerate fast when the bell tolls and Madrid has had enough. Right now, everyone in Catalonia must think about their personal safety first, and it seems it has already started to put brother against brother.
Fortunately Catalonians are not as heavily armed as Texas secessionists.
Quote from: Drakken on October 05, 2017, 02:01:31 PM
Given the circumstances, for her security, can she afford to leave Catalonia before things come to shove?
There are no guarantees that things won't get to a head fast when the bell tolls and Madrid has had enough. Right now, everyone in Catalonia must think about their personal safety first, and it seems it has already started to put brother against brother.
Things are not that bad. And I can't see violence becoming the norm. Perhaps between protesters and police forces when the instigators of the coup are being arrested.
She can't leave Catalonia anyway. She is in Spain on a highly qualified employee visa (she's an engineer). That means her visa is revoked if she leaves the company. However said company is a big multinational that would likely shift operations to another location in case of UDI (probably Madrid or Seville).
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Fortunately Catalonians are not as heavily armed as Texas secessionists.
I'll take your word, as I don't know any.
This is western Europe, the lack of firearms per square meter compared to the US will ensure things don't go full retard re: violence.
Financially though, I'm pretty worried.
My Spanish ETF did bounce back today.
Stocks rallied after several high profile Catalan companies announced plans to relocate.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 01:06:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2017, 01:04:46 PM
Hey Celed - are you Catalan yourself, or are you an import from somewhere else in the country?
Catalan born and bred. All my close family are separatists.
Barcelona or country side? You indicated a fracture between the city and the countryside, earlier, I am curious...
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 05, 2017, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Fortunately Catalonians are not as heavily armed as Texas secessionists.
I'll take your word, as I don't know any.
Catolonians or heavily armed Texans?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 05, 2017, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Fortunately Catalonians are not as heavily armed as Texas secessionists.
I'll take your word, as I don't know any.
Fascinating. Tell me more about these people you don't know.
Quote from: viper37 on October 05, 2017, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 05, 2017, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Fortunately Catalonians are not as heavily armed as Texas secessionists.
I'll take your word, as I don't know any.
Catolonians or heavily armed Texans?
Texas secessionists.
Quote from: viper37 on October 05, 2017, 03:16:39 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 01:06:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2017, 01:04:46 PM
Hey Celed - are you Catalan yourself, or are you an import from somewhere else in the country?
Catalan born and bred. All my close family are separatists.
Barcelona or country side? You indicated a fracture between the city and the countryside, earlier, I am curious...
Barcelona.
Separatism, unsurprisingly, is larger among "ethnic Catalans" (for lack of a better word), which are a larger % of the population in the countryside.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 05, 2017, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 05, 2017, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 05, 2017, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Fortunately Catalonians are not as heavily armed as Texas secessionists.
I'll take your word, as I don't know any.
Catolonians or heavily armed Texans?
Texas secessionists.
They are about 20% of the voters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements#Opinion_polling
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?
What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?
They imagine themselves becoming a new Norway or Switzerland, basically.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 03:40:11 PM
They are about 20% of the voters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements#Opinion_polling
Ok. I don't know any vocal ones.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 05, 2017, 03:45:46 PM
They imagine themselves becoming a new Norway or Switzerland, basically.
Why do people want to become like Switzerland? It is not exactly a pleasant place.
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?
What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?
A friend of mine is a hardcore socialist, and imagines it as a worker's paradise.
Another friend is an an-cap, and imagines it as Randesque utopia (well, dystopia).
Another is a fiscal conservative, and imagines it as an ultra-efficient, low-tax, business friendly nation.
Another is an anarchist, and sees it as a Bakunian collection of small collectivized communities.
That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything. And that's why if we ever become independent, it would be a monumental clusterfuck.
Wow you have quite an eclectic group of friends.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 03:54:24 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 05, 2017, 03:45:46 PM
They imagine themselves becoming a new Norway or Switzerland, basically.
Why do people want to become like Switzerland? It is not exactly a pleasant place.
Swiss chocolate and cheese. Plus shopping in France becomes very cheap.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything.
ohh, I like that one!
Be everything you can be! Vote Yes!I'll keep it in mind, if I ever re-become sovereignist.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 04:03:32 PM
Wow you have quite an eclectic group of friends.
outside the US, people tend to mix and diversify.
I do have one uber leftist friend on my FB. :sleep:
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 04:03:32 PM
Wow you have quite an eclectic group of friends.
They are actually real, I didn't make them up for the sake of the argument :lol:
Quote from: viper37 on October 05, 2017, 04:08:17 PM
outside the US, people tend to mix and diversify.
:yawn:
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?
What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?
A friend of mine is a hardcore socialist, and imagines it as a worker's paradise.
Another friend is an an-cap, and imagines it as Randesque utopia (well, dystopia).
Another is a fiscal conservative, and imagines it as an ultra-efficient, low-tax, business friendly nation.
Another is an anarchist, and sees it as a Bakunian collection of small collectivized communities.
That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything. And that's why if we ever become independent, it would be a monumental clusterfuck.
In reality of course, it would be a Euro-style mixed economy and parliamentary democracy with power alternating back and forth between center left and center right parties. Like, you know, Spain.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?
What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?
A friend of mine is a hardcore socialist, and imagines it as a worker's paradise.
Another friend is an an-cap, and imagines it as Randesque utopia (well, dystopia).
Another is a fiscal conservative, and imagines it as an ultra-efficient, low-tax, business friendly nation.
Another is an anarchist, and sees it as a Bakunian collection of small collectivized communities.
That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything. And that's why if we ever become independent, it would be a monumental clusterfuck.
it's ok, after each faction can separate into their own country. then everyone will be happy.
Apparently some large Catalan companies are yelling at Madrid's government ear in panic and tomorrow they'll issue a decree simplifying the process of relocating a company's HQ within Spain.
will wealth leaving change peoples mind, or will it solidify the us vs them thing since these companies are "traitors"? Is there an intrinsic reason companies settle in Catalonia? easier access to france?
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?
What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?
Well there was a long history of repression of the Catalan language. I mean that ended with Franco, but people can have long memories for such things...
Quote from: HVC on October 05, 2017, 04:29:08 PM
will wealth leaving change peoples mind, or will it solidify the us vs them thing since these companies are "traitors"? Is there an intrinsic reason companies settle in Catalonia? easier access to france?
The hardcore separatists are already drumming up the "we don't need them more than they need us" tune. But the moderates are quaking in their boots. The
Conseller of Enterprise (the regional equivalent of a Minister), which is the most moderate member in the Catalan government, has already said they shouldn't go forward with the UDI. The radicals are firmly in the driver's seat though. Will see if there's some kind of internal revolt before Monday. Honestly, an UDI would be a total disaster.
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least. :lol:
Iormlund probably knows best though. Since he seems to be working for the WV/Seat plant in Catalonia now.
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least. :lol:
Since work on the Basque Y high-speed network is way behind schedule, the only train line without break of gauge goes through Catalonia, though it's mostly for passenger services I believe, since once in Spain (pun intended) the conventional network is still broad gauge, unlike the high-speed network.
Somport and Irun could get really clogged again...
Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2017, 04:34:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?
What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?
Well there was a long history of repression of the Catalan language. I mean that ended with Franco, but people can have long memories for such things...
With Franco there was repression for everyone, it's not like everything was fine and dandy in other places.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 05, 2017, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least. :lol:
Since work on the Basque Y high-speed network is way behind schedule, the only train line without break of gauge goes through Catalonia, though it's mostly for passenger services I believe, since once in Spain (pun intended) the conventional network is still broad gauge, unlike the high-speed network.
Somport and Irun could get really clogged again...
I suspect one of the consequences of this mess will be to reopen the Canfranc tunnel project. It would be a pretty expensive undertaking, but it would allow Spain to have a link to France bypassing both Catalonia and the Basque Country.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 06, 2017, 12:48:02 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 05, 2017, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least. :lol:
Since work on the Basque Y high-speed network is way behind schedule, the only train line without break of gauge goes through Catalonia, though it's mostly for passenger services I believe, since once in Spain (pun intended) the conventional network is still broad gauge, unlike the high-speed network.
Somport and Irun could get really clogged again...
I suspect one of the consequences of this mess will be to reopen the Canfranc tunnel project. It would be a pretty expensive undertaking, but it would allow Spain to have a link to France bypassing both Catalonia and the Basque Country.
That sounds a bit bleak, doesn't it?
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 12:55:16 AM
That sounds a bit bleak, doesn't it?
You can think of it as taking one big card off the separatists' hand. Zaragoza is already the nexus between the Med (Catalonia & Valencia), the Basque Country and Madrid. This would open up France as well.
[edit] Also, it might encourage Seat to shift production away from Catalonia instead of just letting the brand die. If I were them I'd start with the Audi A1, which is low volume and launches next year. That would send a powerful message for a relatively low cost.
First individuals charged with sedition will appear in front of the judge today. There's a chance that the prosecutor might ask for preventive detention of the two leaders of the two largest separatist NGOs - that would set the streets on fire. Hopefully only figuratively. :(
EDIT: They have all been released with charges.
Spanish Spec Ops deployed in key Catalan infrastructures (like the Barcelona airport) to prevent possible takeover after an UDI (yesterday a far-left separatist leader was babbling about how to "secure" them after declaring independence).
God, this is like a really stupid Tom Clancy novel now.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/06/catalan-government-press-ahead-referendum-debate
QuoteThe Catalan government will defy the Spanish constitutional court by going ahead with a parliamentary debate to discuss Sunday's referendum result and potentially make a unilateral declaration of independence, the region's foreign minister has said.
On Thursday the court upheld a challenge by Catalonia's Socialist party – which opposes secession from Spain – ruling that allowing the Catalan parliament to meet on Monday would violate the rights of the party's MPs.
The court warned that any session carried out in defiance of its ban would be "null", and added that the parliament's leaders could face criminal action if they ignored the court order.
But Catalonia's foreign affairs minister, Raül Romeva, insisted the debate would go ahead regardless of the court's decision.
"We will keep going," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme. "I think it's important that we start to understand this is about politics; this is not about legality. There is nothing illegal about voting."
Asked directly if the session would take place on Monday, he replied: "Parliament will discuss; parliament will meet. It will be a debate and this is important."
...
:hmm:
It's not illegal if you want to do it!
Ahh!
Quote from: celedhring on October 06, 2017, 02:44:12 AM
Spanish Spec Ops deployed in key Catalan infrastructures (like the Barcelona airport) to prevent possible takeover after an UDI (yesterday a far-left separatist leader was babbling about how to "secure" them after declaring independence).
God, this is like a really stupid Tom Clancy novel now.
The next Just Cause to be set in Spain?
Energy giant Gas Natural Fenosa (largest company in the region) also approved a move out of Catalonia, to Madrid.
Its difficult isn't it?
What kind of secondary status is worth economic ruin to get rid of?
I mean, what is pretty obvious for me, is that the average Spaniard must have a very low opinion of Catalans. The motivation for that brutality from the police must be coming from somewhere.
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 10:00:15 AM
The motivation for that brutality from the police must be coming from somewhere.
:hmm:
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 10:00:15 AM
Its difficult isn't it?
What kind of secondary status is worth economic ruin to get rid of?
I mean, what is pretty obvious for me, is that the average Spaniard must have a very low opinion of Catalans. The motivation for that brutality from the police must be coming from somewhere.
If you apply this logic to Brexit I guess therefore all Europeans hate the Brits and that is why they left? The motivation for the brutality of the EU negotiators must be coming from somewhere.
I think most people just did think it through. You tend to take benefits of things for granted and can only see the downsides...until that thing goes away. Basic human nature.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 06, 2017, 12:48:02 AM
I suspect one of the consequences of this mess will be to reopen the Canfranc tunnel project. It would be a pretty expensive undertaking, but it would allow Spain to have a link to France bypassing both Catalonia and the Basque Country.
Canfranc station :wub:
Quote from: garbon on October 06, 2017, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 10:00:15 AM
The motivation for that brutality from the police must be coming from somewhere.
:hmm:
Daddy didn't give affection.
:lol: shut up
Close. And the boy was something mommy wouldn't wear. ;)
Man, I hate the future.
Quote from: Tamas on October 06, 2017, 10:00:15 AMI mean, what is pretty obvious for me, is that the average Spaniard must have a very low opinion of Catalans. The motivation for that brutality from the police must be coming from somewhere.
Nah, our police (particulary the "antidisturbios", the ones that do riot control), are very baton-and-rubber-bullet happy, and have always been. They would do the same in any other circumstance once they're unleashed. For instance, they've been cracking heads in Murcia these days because of protests about public works.
All quiet in Wussex?
Quote from: Maladict on October 06, 2017, 10:34:54 AM
Canfranc station :wub:
How do you know the place? When I was a kid I spent a few hours there exploring, one a winter day much like this one:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fe03-expansion.uecdn.es%2Fassets%2Fmultimedia%2Fimagenes%2F2016%2F12%2F07%2F14811331434915.jpg&hash=ca9b6cf921b6297b1e7c7ff2e76004bedd3766c7)
Quote from: Iormlund on October 06, 2017, 02:31:13 PM
How do you know the place? When I was a kid I spent a few hours there exploring, one a winter day much like this one:
I've only seen pictures, never been there myself. I was looking into interesting rail routes to Spain when I found it.
Have you been out marching today, celed?
Quote from: Liep on October 08, 2017, 09:30:27 AM
Have you been out marching today, celed?
Yes. It's been very difficult for me. I hate flags, I'd ordinarily never set foot in a rally of this kind. Never. Too many flags. But desperate times.
The division and hatred within Catalan society is reaching unbearable levels, and it's happening so fast. I'm scared.
All signs point to an UDI tomorrow. Then the government will suspend the Catalan autonomy. Separatist orgs are already calling to "defend our institutions". There will be clashes in the streets, won't surprise me if there's a death toll.
Here we are, feeding the Catalan people to the bonfire of the Nation, so it can shine brightly and terribly.
:(
Well, take it from me, sometimes the writing is on the wall that shitty times are coming, and you should make plans to get out while you can. Trust your instincts.
Quote from: celedhring on October 09, 2017, 08:05:39 AM
All signs point to an UDI tomorrow. Then the government will suspend the Catalan autonomy. Separatist orgs are already calling to "defend our institutions". There will be clashes in the streets, won't surprise me if there's a death toll.
Here we are, feeding the Catalan people to the bonfire of the Nation, so it can shine brightly and terribly.
Oh vanity.
Marx was right. 1936-39 was tragedy, this is farce.
Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2017, 08:28:11 AM
:(
Well, take it from me, sometimes the writing is on the wall that shitty times are coming, and you should make plans to get out while you can. Trust your instincts.
My friends think I'm being hysterical. Maybe I am. Anyway, I can't leave in the short term, but I'm planning to move to Madrid after the New Year, provided there's not a Trumpian wall between both countries by that time or we are in a full Mad Max scenario.
Why would you let a non-existent wall stop you?
Things are heating up. There was a separatist demonstration in Valencia today (Catalonian nationalists claim cores on Valencia and Balear Islands). A far right counter-protest was assembled and ...
(https://i.gyazo.com/28318db1ba5d5df05f5d0944907197af.gif)
I've always been curious where the Balaerics, Valenica and Aragon fit into Catalan nationalism.
I remain optimistic things won't get too bad. I mean, just look at Turkey. They had a full on attempted military coup....and its mostly business as normal (which in their case means a creep towards democracy rather than what we have in Spain).
So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2017, 12:37:41 PM
So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?
They got beaten by a Spanish far-right group. Valencia holds the HQ of one of the largest far right parties in Spain, "España 2000" (founded in 2002, fascists do love living in the past). And by "largest" read "almost 10,000 votes in the last Spanish general election".
Quote from: celedhring on October 09, 2017, 12:42:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2017, 12:37:41 PM
So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?
They got beaten by the Spanish far-right. Valencia holds the HQ of one of the largest far right parties in Spain (and by "largest" read "almost 10,000 votes in the last Spanish general election").
Oh. So there are fanatical Spanish nationalists to?
Your country is complicated.
I heard that the Valencians insist on calling their language 'Valencian' even though it is basically the same at Catalan, which sounded like a nationalist douchebag thing to do. So I figured they must have lots of those.
France has announced it would not recognize Catalonian UDI - and that it would be excluded from the EU.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41551337
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2017, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 09, 2017, 12:42:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2017, 12:37:41 PM
So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?
They got beaten by the Spanish far-right. Valencia holds the HQ of one of the largest far right parties in Spain (and by "largest" read "almost 10,000 votes in the last Spanish general election").
Oh. So there are fanatical Spanish nationalists to?
Your country is complicated.
I heard that the Valencians insist on calling their language 'Valencian' even though it is basically the same at Catalan, which sounded like a nationalist douchebag thing to do. So I figured they must have lots of those.
Of course there are, but they are pitiful. It's ironic how separatists see fascists everywhere in a nation where the actual far-right share of the vote is the smallest of any major European nation.
I don't really understand the logic of Catalan seperatists living in other parts of Spain to hold independence rallies there.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2017, 12:53:39 PM
I don't really understand the logic of Catalan seperatists living in other parts of Spain to hold independence rallies there.
It's nationalism, logic doesn't need to be involved. In this magical world Valencia, the Balear Isles and Roselló (French province bordering Catalonia) are part of the mythical Catalonian Countries.
Well that explains France's position.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 09, 2017, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2017, 12:53:39 PM
I don't really understand the logic of Catalan seperatists living in other parts of Spain to hold independence rallies there.
It's nationalism, logic doesn't need to be involved. In this magical world Valencia, the Balear Isles and Roselló (French province bordering Catalonia) are part of the mythical Catalonian Countries.
They forgot the Catalan speakers in Alghero, Sardinia! :(
if UDI happens we'll see how things go. But let's not forget that a number of EU members are themselves the result of UDI's, and not that long ago either. So in the end (again if UDI happens and if the Catalans manage to maintain that independence) pragmatism and realpolitik will take over. It'll be a massive prestige loss for the EU to get stuck with a hole the size of Catalonia inside the Union borders.
And while I know it's very popular to shit on the Catalan nationalists here it might not be uninteresting to figure out how Spain managed to lose the desire of half (if not more) of the Catalan nation to be part of Spain. How did so many become so disappointed with the idea of Post-Franco Spain that independence, and the initial hardships that brings, is preferable? What did the Spanish government(s), in other words, do wrong throughout the years to allow the idea of independence get some real traction? And what capacity does Spain have to -basically- woe all these disappointed/angry/etc Catalans back into the fold?
The whole country was usurped from the Neolithic settlers. It should all go to the Basques.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 09, 2017, 01:35:01 PMWhat did the Spanish government(s), in other words, do wrong throughout the years to allow the idea of independence get some real traction?
Transfer control over education and regional state media to nationalists. Those that shout the loudest have been raised in the most tolerant and prosperous era of the country, while those old enough to remember actual oppression are far less radicalized.
Quote
And what capacity does Spain have to -basically- woe all these disappointed/angry/etc Catalans back into the fold?
Little to none. I can't see a good ending here.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 09, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
if UDI happens we'll see how things go. But let's not forget that a number of EU members are themselves the result of UDI's, and not that long ago either. So in the end (again if UDI happens and if the Catalans manage to maintain that independence) pragmatism and realpolitik will take over. It'll be a massive prestige loss for the EU to get stuck with a hole the size of Catalonia inside the Union borders.
Realpolitik and pragmatism has taken over right now. That's why no one is coming to the aid of Catalonia, because their cause is doomed from the start.
Also, they would have the everlasting enmity from Spain if they went that route, and most probably Spain would leave the EU too.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 09, 2017, 01:37:44 PM
The whole country was usurped from the Neolithic settlers. It should all go to the Basques.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 09, 2017, 01:37:44 PM
The whole country was usurped from the Neolithic settlers. It should all go to the Basques.
https://youtu.be/Ia02fGpUQfU
Quote from: Drakken on October 09, 2017, 12:51:05 PM
France has announced it would not recognize Catalonian UDI - and that it would be excluded from the EU.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41551337
So France would still consider Catalonia a part of Spain and Catalonia would be out of the EU how?
By French brilliance of course.
The world is getting weirder and weirder.
I heard someone (a Castillian) say that the Catalans supporting independence tended to be in the 40-60 age bracket whilst younger people tended to be more pro-Spain.
Any truth in this? As curiously counter to most such movements,
Quote from: Razgovory on October 09, 2017, 03:23:59 PM
The world is getting weirder and weirder.
Well people are listening more and more to what crazy people have to say.
Quote from: Tyr on October 09, 2017, 03:34:47 PM
I heard someone (a Castillian) say that the Catalans supporting independence tended to be in the 40-60 age bracket whilst younger people tended to be more pro-Spain.
Any truth in this? As curiously counter to most such movements,
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joserodriguez.info%2Fbloc%2Fwp-content%2Fthemes%2Fmimbo2.2%2Fimages%2F%2FCEO-independencia.jpg&hash=f2b4e6cdaef09c6486e70cfe81474b5c1c373b04)
What the he'll did you guys do in 2010.
Housing bubble collapse (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,4552.0.html).
QuoteFont: Elaboració pròpia
Interesting to come up with one's own source. :D
Quote from: HVC on October 09, 2017, 03:48:37 PM
What the he'll did you guys do in 2010.
gut the autonomy statute that was agreed in 2006 between Madrid and Barcelona, and accepted via referendum. Basically having the diplomatic equivalent of taking a shit in your dinner.
So he spoke from his arse. Interesting they generally follow the same pattern as each other.
Isn't there a housing bubble again in Barcelona? Air BnB related in part.
Quote from: Tyr on October 09, 2017, 03:34:47 PM
I heard someone (a Castillian) say that the Catalans supporting independence tended to be in the 40-60 age bracket whilst younger people tended to be more pro-Spain.
Any truth in this? As curiously counter to most such movements,
Older people tend to be pro-unity, younger people pro-independence. But the margins are close, really, age isn't *the* vector. Language is much more important, so is wealth (well-off Catalan speakers are the most in favor of separation, go figures).
Quote from: Tyr on October 09, 2017, 03:55:34 PM
So he spoke from his arse. Interesting they generally follow the same pattern as each other.
Isn't there a housing bubble again in Barcelona? Air BnB related in part.
With enough economic chaos and street fights, maybe I'll be able to afford rent in BCN again!
Quote from: celedhring on October 09, 2017, 04:11:07 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 09, 2017, 03:55:34 PM
So he spoke from his arse. Interesting they generally follow the same pattern as each other.
Isn't there a housing bubble again in Barcelona? Air BnB related in part.
With enough economic chaos and street fights, maybe I'll be able to afford rent in BCN again!
I'm not sure you want to. Had to enjoy the neighbors'
reaggeton until 4 AM last Saturday. :bleeding:
From OT Forum:
QuoteSo, some quotes came out from one of the documents the police got from one of the members of the Catalan government when the judge ordered a raid.
Snippets:
The prepared actions that led to "a democratic conflict of large citizen support, oriented to generate economic and political instability that forces the State to either accept a separation negotiation or a forced referendum"
"The political and police heads of the Mossos (Catalan Police) are completely involved in this separatist process"
"At the moment when there is a clear citizen determination to support and get implocated actively and with international complicity, we need to start un a conservative manner, progressively increaseing conflictivity depending on the State's response, under the leadership and coordination of all implicated actors and with no doubt on actions and times".
Plans for an executive commitee and a strategic one formed by Puigdemont, Junqueras, several independentist politicians, the heads of the ANC, Omnium and the AMI, with plans to "Call for elections once it is known that there will be a new independentist parliament"
Insistence on the need for international credibility
Also, the investigation is pointing out that the Mossos actively protected members of the Catalan Goverment from the judiciary.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/catalan-politics.880425/page-257
Blade! needs to ban somebody for that. Twice.
OHGamer, y'all!
Are we stuck in 2004 or what?
You know, maybe if these Spaniards got jobs they wouldn't have time for strikes and protests.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2017, 06:13:00 PM
You know, maybe if these Spaniards got jobs they wouldn't have time for strikes and protests.
Forget it, they're rolling.
If that leaked separatist document is real it's truly horrific. An elected government engineering civil, political and economic conflict in order to generate enough instability to get away with its political objectives. Work of the insane.
Worked for the UK Conservatives
The disbanding of the Mossos is a viable option, or there's the risk of an open revolt?
L.
Wish I knew. The whole thing hinges on how much control the Catalan government can retain once Madrid issues the order taking over.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 08:04:35 AM
Wish I knew. The whole thing hinges on how much control the Catalan government can retain once Madrid issues the order taking over.
At what hour is the extraordinary session due? Was it announced in advance, or at least feelers to the media?
Furthermore, are there any "Catalan" military cadres and units in the Spanish armed forces, or are soldiers mixed up inside units regardless of nationality? If the former is positive, are they actually based in Catalonia?
For example, here in Canada, we have the Royal 22nd Regiment. The regiment serves as the "local" infantry regiment for Quebec where it draws most of its recruits, and thus, and so is in majority numbered by Quebecois soldiers and officers (although there are Anglophones from both inside and outside as well, so it is not exclusively Quebecois). They are based locally in Valcartier, and it is sure this would have been a major "issue" should Quebec have seceded. What would Quebecois soldiers in the Forces do should the 'Yes' win was certainly a question raised during the 1995 referendum.
The President asked to address Parliament today at 18:00 - it is expected that it will make an announcement regarding an UDI.
However, according to the independence law they issued, an UDI has to be issued by Parliament - not the President - and so far a motion hasn't been introduced to debate it. But I don't think they are setting up huge wall-TVs outside for nothing.
There are no regional units in the Spanish army (as in made up of people hailing from the same region). There's two batallions stationed in Catalonia, but the army would be deployed as the very last resort.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 09, 2017, 05:12:00 PM
Blade! needs to ban somebody for that. Twice.
Unless they buy something for him from his Amazon wish list.
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 08:24:56 AM
What would Quebecois soldiers in the Forces do should the 'Yes' win was certainly a question raised during the 1995 referendum.
Missed this bit. How come? Since the Quebec referendum was a lawful one, why would the army had to play any part?
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 09:08:04 AM
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 08:24:56 AM
What would Quebecois soldiers in the Forces do should the 'Yes' win was certainly a question raised during the 1995 referendum.
Missed this bit. How come? Since the Quebec referendum was a lawful one, why would the army had to play any part?
I don't remember any debate - I assume the only issue in the event of a Yes vote would be whether they would choose to remain in the federal Canadian army, or join a new Quebec national army.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 09:08:04 AM
Missed this bit. How come? Since the Quebec referendum was a lawful one, why would the army had to play any part?
Malthus is right, but there was also a fear that the Canadian government might not recognize the Yes result if it won, since Ottawa argued that the question on the referendum was made purposefully unclear and, thus, illegitimate if not illegal. They could argue - and they did - that the Quebecois were being misled like a pied piper by the Yes campaign, and inferred they might not accept a mere majority of 50%+1.
Remember, the question in 1995 was not whether we separate or not, but on "becoming sovereign, while maintaining an economic and legal partnership with Canada." The question was long to the point of being absurd; it was basically asking to separate and remain part of Canada.
QuoteDo you agree that Québec should become sovereign, after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership, within the scope of the Bill respecting the future of Québec and of the agreement signed on 12 June 1995?
Also, there were groups like the Cree Nation and some fringe "angryphone" groups, like Robert Libman's "Equality Party", that argued in favor of partitioning Quebec during the campaign - that if Canada was divisible, so was Quebec.
We now know that the Canadian government was in a state of utter panic when the polls showed that the Yes side was trending a majority. They just expected to win by default and they became desperate when the Yes was in the lead, hence why they decided to cheat the system and use federal money to fund the "love-in" demonstration right before the vote, and use expediencies like fast-tracking grants of citizenships for new immigrants (with the expectation they would vote No).
They became so paranoid after that near-defear, that the Chrétien government invested vast sums of taxpayers' money to promote Canada at every avenue possible - and they subcontracted that to communication firms belonging to their Liberal friends, who obviously overbilled the government to pocket the money. This was the seed of the "Sponsorship Scandal" which sunk the Liberal Party of Canada for over a decade - and threatened even its very existence as a party until Justin Trudeau took the helm.
The position of their own Quebec MPs in parliament was put into jeopardy, should the Yes won. There were talks in the Opposition to put a motion of no-confidence and that the government resigns if it were the case since Jean Chrétien and a good chunk of the Cabinet and government caucus were composed of Quebecois.
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 10:21:39 AM
We now know that the Canadian government was in a state of utter panic when the polls showed that the Yes side was trending a majority. They just expected to win by default and they became desperate when the Yes was in the lead, hence why they decided to cheat the system and use federal money to fund the "love-in" demonstration right before the vote, and use expediencies like fast-tracking grants of citizenships for new immigrants (with the expectation they would vote No).
I just have a hard time believing stuff like this. Politicians are famously super paranoid and neurotic about every vote to the point they even cheat when they have double digit leads. The idea that any of them would expect to win by default strikes me as unlikely.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 10:56:47 AM
I just have a hard time believing stuff like this. Politicians are famously super paranoid and neurotic about every vote to the point they even cheat when they have double digit leads. The idea that any of them would expect to win by default strikes me as unlikely.
Were you there? I was 15 during that campaign and remember it very well. When the Yes started to trend up, the whole thing snowballed and spiralled out of control.
Not only that, all the major players on both sides talked openly about it to biographers a few years ago. The major No players in Ottawa, Chrétien first, candidly admitted that they had no expectation that the Yes had a chance to win, until it began to actually win right after Bouchard took control of the campaign. Then, they were thrown in utter confusion and they improvised: They actually had
no plan for a Yes victory.
They expected it to be 1980 all over again. And at the beginning of the campaign, they were right. Yes support was really low and the campaign was not jumping under Parizeau's leadership. While everybody recognized his status as a statemen, he was an economist, a hard-liner who made no secret that what he wanted was secession, and lacked the charisma to sell the project.
It's when Lucien Bouchard joined the campaign and took the
de-facto Yes leadership that the Yes started to trend, then lead in the polls. Because they joined hands with disappointed, young federalists, represented by Mario Dumont's ADQ, and opened the door to a negociated settlement the like of what was submitted in the question.
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 10:59:42 AM
Were you there? I was 15 during that campaign and remember it very well.
Well yes and no. Mostly no :P
I was in College at the time. We had a couple Quebec students come to my French class to explain the referendum to us in entry level French. I remember their faces the day after the results were announced, most funerals were more cheery.
1 hour delay. Still in time for watching the rioting before sleep, though.
What a mess. :(
They say he's talking with "international mediators". I guess somebody big is trying to talk him down before it's too late.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 11:31:39 AM
They say he's talking with "international mediators". I guess somebody big is trying to talk him down before it's too late.
I sure hope he is not talking with Putin or *gasp* Trump.
Rajoy has already made it clear he wouldn't deal with mediators. It's either Puidgemont backing down now, or UDI.
There's also talk from insiders that the moderates and the radicals are clashing on whether have a proper UDI or one that would be "timed" and not have an immediate effect.
Oh please please please do a GOP
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:00:00 PM
There's also talk from insiders that the moderates and the radicals are clashing on whether have a proper UDI or one that would be "timed" and not have an immediate effect.
LOL
Sorry celed, but what a bunch of idiots they are. They really think Rajoy would accept a "timed" UDI, now?
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 12:01:15 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:00:00 PM
There's also talk from insiders that the moderates and the radicals are clashing on whether have a proper UDI or one that would be "timed" and not have an immediate effect.
LOL
Sorry celed, but what a bunch of idiots they are. They really think Rajoy would accept a "timed" UDI, now?
The whole plan is having gigantic clashes between police and crowds to force international intervention in their favor. The trick is to look like "appeasers" issuing an UDI but then freezing it "if Madrid agrees to negotiate".
EDIT: Looks like it's gonna start now.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:02:46 PM
The whole plan is having gigantic clashes between police and crowds to force international intervention. Their trick is to look like "appeasers" issuing an UDI but then freezing it "if Madrid agrees to negotiate".
That's the whole problem. If we know their plan, the Spaniards know it too. :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:02:46 PM
EDIT: Looks like it's gonna start now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg92QpjRcJk
:(
For those who want to watch the end of Catalonia as we know it live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVqpJ7m-AaA
They are going for it. UDI. Just from the start of his speech, I can feel it.
He is purposefully making not any mention of Spain at all.
Makes an UDI but then suspends it. :lol:
Minsky was right. This is farce. Pity that I don't find it funny.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
Makes an UDI but then suspends it. :lol:
Minsky was right. This is farce. Pity that I don't find it funny.
So it was a "we're separating... sometime.. eventually" speech?
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 12:15:25 PM
They are going for it. UDI. Just from the start of his speech, I can feel it.
He is purposefully making not any mention of Spain at all.
If Madrid doesn't want to negotiate (and they haven't wanted to negotiate for years now, apparently) then what else is left?
You cannot ignore a call for change by millions without consequences.
Spain must be brought to the table talk. Show a bit of statesmanship instead of trying to channel Franco.
Quote from: HVC on October 10, 2017, 12:40:52 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
Makes an UDI but then suspends it. :lol:
Minsky was right. This is farce. Pity that I don't find it funny.
So it was a "we're separating... sometime.. eventually" speech?
Yeah. He says he accepts the mandate to declare independence but then asks Parliament to suspend it while he seeks mediation.
He's still talking, but I don't think there's going to be any major twist.
Meh. Shit or get off the pot.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
Makes an UDI but then suspends it. :lol:
Minsky was right. This is farce. Pity that I don't find it funny.
all of this could have been avoided if the government in Madrid weren't hell bent on not talking for years.
Frankly, maybe they should take an example in Belgium for once.
HOTT. :blush:
Unfortunately, we have lost the translation. But I gather she is shitting on Puidgemont. Leader of the Opposition?
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 12:12:00 PM
For those who want to watch the end of Catalonia as we know it live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVqpJ7m-AaA
The gal speaking right now is pretty cute.
edit: aaaaand they cut the feed. Damn it.
Resolved, That Catalonia should be at some point in the future, and of right might be at some point, a free and independent State, that it might be in the future absolved from all allegiance to the Spanish Crown, and that all political connection between her and the State of Spain might be, and maybe at some point probably should be, totally dissolved.
Quote from: derspiess on October 10, 2017, 12:47:34 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 12:12:00 PM
For those who want to watch the end of Catalonia as we know it live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVqpJ7m-AaA
The gal speaking right now is pretty cute.
Yeah she is the leader of the unionist liberal party, she featured heavily in our Catalonia election thread.
I can smell the poo from here. CiU was a Christian-Democrat business-friendly party for the past 40 years. And he's managed to have every single company in the Ibex 35 stock index leave the region in less than a week.
We have lost the feed. In fact, all feeds from the Catalonian Parliament. :huh:
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 12:49:08 PM
Yeah she is the leader of the unionist liberal party, she featured heavily in our Catalonia election thread.
She features heavily in my dreams.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:53:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 12:49:08 PM
Yeah she is the leader of the unionist liberal party, she featured heavily in our Catalonia election thread.
She features heavily in my dreams.
Mine to :wub:
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:53:40 PM
She features heavily in my dreams.
I can give you that. Even without translation, from how much passion she was showing crapping all over Puidgemont in her speech, she seems to be a feisty gal.
Looks good. Bbc is reporting the Catalan leader has announced the independence vote is on hold and talks shall begin
Quote from: Tyr on October 10, 2017, 12:56:04 PM
Looks good. Bbc is reporting the Catalan leader has announced the independence vote is on hold and talks shall begin
Yeah, except that Madrid won't talk. They will either ignore or invoke Article 155 in the next hours or so.
It's like the separatists genuinely believe that Rajoy pulled out the King himself to threaten them directly, all for a gigantic bluff. They are all in cuckooland.
Quote from: Tyr on October 10, 2017, 12:56:04 PM
Looks good. Bbc is reporting the Catalan leader has announced the independence vote is on hold and talks shall begin
What is there to discuss though?
I mean unless this is some kind of leverage bluff on the part of the separatists to negotiate an autonomy deal.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 10:21:39 AM
We now know that the Canadian government was in a state of utter panic when the polls showed that the Yes side was trending a majority. They just expected to win by default and they became desperate when the Yes was in the lead, hence why they decided to cheat the system and use federal money to fund the "love-in" demonstration right before the vote, and use expediencies like fast-tracking grants of citizenships for new immigrants (with the expectation they would vote No).
I just have a hard time believing stuff like this. Politicians are famously super paranoid and neurotic about every vote to the point they even cheat when they have double digit leads. The idea that any of them would expect to win by default strikes me as unlikely.
there were public inquiries into this, two, actually, plus numerous revisions of the case by the Directeur Général des Élections.
That was confirmed.
The pretention by the Feds that a large number of votes were rejected by the
Yes side was found untrue.
You have to remember this was the second referendum, 15 years after the 1st one.
The
NO side won the first one 60-40.
Before the 1995 referendum, polls indicated a victory to the NO side by about the same margin. Parizeau was hellbent on making a referendum anyway, but he lacked the charisma to champion the cause. And just like everywhere else in the free world, people pretend to be concerned at their wallet, their tax levels, the general state of the economy, but when you talk about that, they get bored and don't listen to you, unless you tell them exactly what they want to hear.
Here comes Lucien Bouchard with a bold new strategy: "Numbers aren't important, it's what you feel". It worked, to a point. Support for the 'yes' side kept climbing, going for 41-42% to 49,5% by the time of the vote.
Drakken is still pissed off Quebec might have rejected the Queen and that's something he'll never forgive the seperatists for. ;)
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
Minsky was right. This is farce. Pity that I don't find it funny.
Did the crisis affect Spanish economy at all, aside Catolonia, I mean?
So, when is the official response from Madrid - and Rajoy's public statement - scheduled to happen?
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 01:10:01 PM
So, when is the official response from Madrid - and Rajoy's public statement - scheduled to happen?
Tomorrow afternoon (16h IIRC)
Honestly? The separatist radicals are furious and the people waiting outside Parliament to celebrate independence look like Barça just lost the CL final. I'd rather Madrid took his sweet time before giving them anything to galvanize them again.
Hopefully the radical separatists forget that revolutionaries are not supposed to eat their own until AFTER the revolution wins.
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 10, 2017, 12:56:04 PM
Looks good. Bbc is reporting the Catalan leader has announced the independence vote is on hold and talks shall begin
Yeah, except that Madrid won't talk. They will either ignore or invoke Article 155 in the next hours or so.
It's like the separatists genuinely believe that Rajoy pulled out the King himself to threaten them directly, all for a gigantic bluff. They are all in cuckooland.
Then maybe Madrid doesn't belong in the EU but rather the middle east. There they also don't talk. <_<
seems to me that Madrid can be happy the Catalans are who they are. In other places bombs would have been going off by now.
Madrid has indicated that it's willing to talk of anything outside of independence, Congress has even started a commission for Constitutional reform. On that count, they succeeded, yet they seemed to prefer to jump off the cliff.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:32:37 PM
Madrid has indicated that it's willing to talk of anything outside of independence, Congress has even started a commission for Constitutional reform. On that count, they succeeded, yet they seemed to prefer to jump off the cliff.
In a shocking turn of events CI is misrepresenting the whole situation? Amazing.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 10, 2017, 12:49:21 PM
I can smell the poo from here. CiU was a Christian-Democrat business-friendly party for the past 40 years. And he's managed to have every single company in the Ibex 35 stock index leave the region in less than a week.
if companies are smart they'll keep moving. you'll probably get this thing happening every few decades, especially if you give them goodies for staying.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:32:37 PM
Madrid has indicated that it's willing to talk of anything outside of independence, Congress has even started a commission for Constitutional reform. On that count, they succeeded, yet they seemed to prefer to jump off the cliff.
In a shocking turn of events CI is misrepresenting the whole situation? Amazing.
:rolleyes: Don't be the ass you usually are Valmy. At least give us that shocking turn of events.
It took Catalonia going to the brink of UDI for Madrid to give an indication of willingness to talk. An indication, which is still not the same as actually talking.
None of all the fracas would have been necessary if there had been willingness to talk 7 years ago.
So frankly, given the info available, I'm thinking I'm pretty much on the ball with the representation.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:32:37 PM
Madrid has indicated that it's willing to talk of anything outside of independence, Congress has even started a commission for Constitutional reform. On that count, they succeeded, yet they seemed to prefer to jump off the cliff.
I don't want to be a legalistic jerk, but didn't Puidgement proclaim independence, but "suspended" its effect for talks? Words are important here, and that is what I got from his speech: They have not backed down, independence has been proclaimed but not put in effect.
I am not sure Rajoy will read this as "renouncing" independence, because should talks fail it becomes effective. Basically, talks succeed if Madrid relents in every demand they make.
I am willing to bet 100 Euros that Rajoy's reply tomorrow will be that since they have not renounced secession, there will be no talk. Who's on the bet?
Quote from: Drakken on October 10, 2017, 01:46:53 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:32:37 PM
Madrid has indicated that it's willing to talk of anything outside of independence, Congress has even started a commission for Constitutional reform. On that count, they succeeded, yet they seemed to prefer to jump off the cliff.
I don't want to be a legalistic jerk, but didn't Puidgement proclaim independence, but "suspended" its effect for talks? Words are important here, and that is what I got from his speech: They have not backed down, independence has been proclaimed but not put in effect.
I am not sure Rajoy will read this as "renouncing" independence, because should talks fail it becomes effective.
I think Rajoy will proceed as if an UDI was indeed in effect. Which personally I think it's a mistake.
And if we are going the legalistic way, according to their ad-hoc law Parliament had to proclaim independence - not the Government. There hasn't been an act of Parliament today, just an address by the President.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I think Rajoy will proceed as if an UDI was indeed in effect. Which personally I think it's a mistake.
According to El Pais, it seems you are right. :(
Quote
El Gobierno español interpreta que la intervención del presidente de la Generalitat es una declaración de secesión
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/08/actualidad/1507486997_515327.html?rel=mas
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I think Rajoy will proceed as if an UDI was indeed in effect. Which personally I think it's a mistake.
Rajoy is not exactly a master strategist is he? I mean unless he is playing 4-D chess and only looking like a fool.
Quote from: HVC on October 10, 2017, 01:41:11 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 10, 2017, 12:49:21 PM
I can smell the poo from here. CiU was a Christian-Democrat business-friendly party for the past 40 years. And he's managed to have every single company in the Ibex 35 stock index leave the region in less than a week.
if companies are smart they'll keep moving. you'll probably get this thing happening every few decades, especially if you give them goodies for staying.
Not decades, years. Last attempt was less than 3 years ago.
They've been playing this game for decades, and Spain always relented, until the only thing left to devolve was taxing authority. Which is not something you want to give up when you can be in this very same situation in a few years.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I think Rajoy will proceed as if an UDI was indeed in effect. Which personally I think it's a mistake.
Rajoy is not exactly a master strategist is he? I mean unless he is playing 4-D chess and only looking like a fool.
His only strategy is to wait out until political opponents shoot their own foot, or others come and fix things he's supposed to fix (hello Mario Draghi). For once, even though he's let this situation fester, I hope he sticks to his guns through the end and does nothing, or lets somebody else do it.
I hope he just does nothing. And I mean nothing. Not even speaking about this. All he has to do is wait and watch silently as Catalonia's business flee and their politicians turn on each other.
But who am I kidding. He will find a way to fuck this up.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 10, 2017, 02:12:52 PM
I hope he just does nothing. And I mean nothing. Not even speaking about this. All he has to do is wait and watch silently as Catalonia's business flee and their politicians turn on each other.
But who am I kidding. He will find a way to fuck this up.
If there is anything History shows, it is that it is very hard to stop once the drums of war have already started to beat - especially if you are one of those beating it. And Rajoy is already at war (with words only so far) with the Catalan Generalitat since the whole mess has started.
Looks like there might be an address from Rajoy this same night. Isn't there any football he can watch?
Oh ffs!
Spain's largest publishing company (based in Barcelona) announces that it's moving to Madrid right after the UDI-or-not.
Not that surprising. The ownership of Planeta was always vocal about it.
Um isn't this starting to add up as far as jobs lost? Or is everybody just planning on taking the train to Madrid and moving with the company?
Madrid realestate sounds like the winning investment.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 02:30:22 PM
Um isn't this starting to add up as far as jobs lost? Or is everybody just planning on taking the train to Madrid and moving with the company?
Madrid realestate sounds like the winning investment.
Most companies are just changing "address" for now. It's mostly symbolic, except for the banks (which need access to ECB financing and deposit guarantee schemes). That been said, it will have a definite effect on local taxes, as some of those are paid to your city of "residence". Barcelona will have to plug a big hole in its budget next year.
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 02:20:39 PM
Looks like there might be an address from Rajoy this same night. Isn't there any football he can watch?
Well, for what remains as options, I believe it is the lesser of the two evils: If he is going to kick the Catalan separatists in the balls, better do it now than tomorrow.
I mean, why wait and let the situation fester any further? You do not know if there will be clashes in the streets of Barcelona tonight - and people getting killed or seriously hurt.
Damn Canadians are like the hobbits of this world, it can be on the brink of chaos and they'll still wish to discuss the niceties of their constitution and which obscure politician is do what,when and why.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 10, 2017, 01:32:37 PM
Madrid has indicated that it's willing to talk of anything outside of independence, Congress has even started a commission for Constitutional reform. On that count, they succeeded, yet they seemed to prefer to jump off the cliff.
In a shocking turn of events CI is misrepresenting the whole situation? Amazing.
They could have talked before the referendum. They could have said something to the effect they were willing to talk.
But they used the hard line, and now they are backed in a corner: either they up the violence&repression a notch and they look like Syria, or they admit they are willing to talk.
If they were serious about talking, they would have done it before.
Now, I think it's just a ploy to defuse the situation and hope the nationalist sentiment of Catolonia are toned down while pro-union and moderates in Catalonia marginalize the ultra-seperatist.
That is my 0,02$.
It physically hurts me to actually defend Rajoy, but he always offered dialogue to Puigdemont as long as independence was off the table.
Looks like the separatist MPs signed a proper, actual UDI in a room inside Parliament. I guess that's the "suspended UDI".
The Spanish VP is going to make an address. That precludes anything substantial happening just yet (it would be Rajoy announcing it otherwise)
VP? I thought you had a monarchy? :hmm: Or is that the deputy PM or something?
This is getting sillier by the hour. Are they trying to get arrested? Are they hoping the police assaults Parliament or something? :huh:
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2017, 03:30:04 PM
VP? I thought you had a monarchy? :hmm: Or is that the deputy PM or something?
Over here we don't call our PM PM. We call him Prez.
Ah ok thanks for the clarification.
The Spanish Cabinet will meet tomorrow morning "to discuss the steps we'll undertake", according to the VP.
Quote from: mongers on October 10, 2017, 02:46:33 PM
Damn Canadians are like the hobbits of this world, it can be on the brink of chaos and they'll still wish to discuss the niceties of their constitution and which obscure politician is do what,when and why.
I thought you were a hobbit. :unsure:
Quote from: The Larch on October 10, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
It physically hurts me to actually defend Rajoy, but he always offered dialogue to Puigdemont as long as independence was off the table.
A great Galician like you? :P
In case anyone was wondering, the BBC chick pronounced el Gran Queso Catalan's name Poochemont.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2017, 03:47:23 PM
Poochemont.
No wonder he is so totally extreme.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblindsquirrelprops.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2Fpoochie_old01.jpg&hash=64086c4dbf4c85f93e7b81b736991ecbe5f01e4f)
The far-left radical separatist party (CUP), says that they will debate leaving Parliament for the time being after the suspension of the UDI.
Separatists NGOs (which are hugely influential) asking Puigdemont that he sets a "limited time" for the suspension of the UDI.
Will see what happens. I think after today this is for Rajoy's to lose now. Which he perfectly can.
Quote from: The Larch on October 10, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
It physically hurts me to actually defend Rajoy, but he always offered dialogue to Puigdemont as long as independence was off the table.
Ok, I did not know that. That part was missing from the coverage.
Quote from: mongers on October 10, 2017, 02:46:33 PM
Damn Canadians are like the hobbits of this world, it can be on the brink of chaos and they'll still wish to discuss the niceties of their constitution and which obscure politician is do what,when and why.
that was a minor interlude only. :sleep:
Watching some Portuguese news channel, just noticed the Podemos talking head comparing Rajoy to Erdogan, using the slippery rope argument (we don't want Rajoy to behave/turn like Erdogan). :lmfao:
Plus judging wise the suspended UDI by Carles. :D
PS: worse than I thought
Rajoy about to appear in Congress. Pulse racing...
EDIT: Seems he'll appear this afternoon, only ministers/VP talking for now.
EDIT2: No, at noon.
Like a true Galician (sorry Larchie) Rajoy has bounced it back. He formally requests the Catalan Government to clarify whether they declared independence or not yesterday, before undertaking further steps (hinting that those steps would be the intervention of Catalan autonomy)
This should at least give me until the weekend without panic attacks.
Opposition leader announces he's reached an agreement with Rajoy to start Constitutional reform, including regional organization. The Commission had already been greenlit a few weeks ago, and it will start to deliberate next week.
So this is how it's being reported:
1) The Government, through the Spanish Senate, is formally asking the Catalan Government whether it's declared independence or not, and has until Monday to produce an answer.
2) If the answer is "yes" there's a second deadline until Thursday 19 to retract it.
3) Failing that, the process to intervene the Catalan autonomy (art. 155 of the Spanish Constitution) will start.
Man, you guys suck at quelling regional tension.
They have also opened the Commission on Constitutional Reform and invited the separatists to participate. 2 out of 3 separatist parties have already refused.
I don't know what else Madrid could do at this point. A democratic state can't break its own Constitution.
Give more autonomy. Of course the separatist don't want to participate. Doesn't matter. You don't talk to the Parties, you talk to the population.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
Give more autonomy. Of course the separatist don't want to participate. Doesn't matter. You don't talk to the Parties, you talk to the population.
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
Give more autonomy. Of course the separatist don't want to participate. Doesn't matter. You don't talk to the Parties, you talk to the population.
That would be complicated. A new Constitution can be approved without them, a new Catalan Statute not.
Quote from: Drakken on October 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
Give more autonomy. Of course the separatist don't want to participate. Doesn't matter. You don't talk to the Parties, you talk to the population.
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Yeah, Spain is extremely decentralized. But it can be perfected.
Taxation ultimately is the big thing remaining, and even if the state doesn't want to give all of it up, the current system is extremely imperfect, complicated, and - worst of all - opaque. The biggest structural problem affecting regions right now (ALL of them, not just Catalonia), is that they control most of the expenditure (health care, education, etc...) but have very little control on the financing. If a region finds itself lacking funds after receiving transfers from the State, they have few levers they can pull to increase their own revenue besides some small devolved taxes and rising/lowering a few points on the income tax. All they can do is to cut expense or run big deficits. Some kind of co-participation in tax policy and collection is necessary, as well as increased ability to create new taxes. Even the liberals (notorious anti-nationalists) have put forward a reform to increase regional tax autonomy to a degree. An independent commission established by Madrid also produced a similar proposal.
Quote from: Drakken on October 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
Give more autonomy. Of course the separatist don't want to participate. Doesn't matter. You don't talk to the Parties, you talk to the population.
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Good place to start.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Good place to start.
Ten years ago I would maybe agree. Not anymore. It would make another go at this even more risky.
I'm all for dialogue but there are two things that have to happen:
- Everyone involved in setting this up ends in jail. Dialogue can start with whoever is in charge afterwards.
- The central government must keep control and oversight of any power that can turn against it.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
Give more autonomy. Of course the separatist don't want to participate. Doesn't matter. You don't talk to the Parties, you talk to the population.
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Good place to start.
Sounds like that would be the end not the start :hmm:
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2017, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Good place to start.
Ten years ago I would maybe agree. Not anymore. It would make another go at this even more risky.
I'm all for dialogue but there are two things that have to happen:
- Everyone involved in setting this up ends in jail. Dialogue can start with whoever is in charge afterwards.
- The central government must keep control and oversight of any power that can turn against it.
:lol:
Man, you guys suck at quelling regional tension.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 01:27:20 PM
Man, you guys suck at quelling regional tension.
This might be new to you. But we've been playing this game for 40 long years:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.imgur.com%2FEIRixHQ.jpg&hash=9d896377cc8feaa4705be457b9558bb189631847)
So I guess, in the view of the Spaniards, the Catalans have no reason to complain, because all is required of them to speak Spanish and they have all the rights like everyone else, right?
I'm an "ethnic Catalan" and I have no reason to complain.
Learning Catalan in schools? Check - it's the vehicular language for everybody, even.
Using it my relationship with the state? Check - All regional government stuff is preferentially done in Catalan, and pretty much all State stuff is available in all Spanish languages.
Catalan Culture? - Check - the autonomy of the regional government in cultural policy is immense, we can do anything we want. Catalan culture is flourishing right now.
Media? Check - There's plenty of Catalan language media, both private and state-funded.
So, as a Catalan, what else could I want from my state?
The things I have to complain about - corruption, unemployment, funding of education and health care, etc... - are the same things somebody from Valencia, Cádiz or Valladolid could complain about
I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.
Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.
Quote from: Tamas on October 11, 2017, 02:12:31 PM
I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.
Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.
I'm quite certain we're far better off than pre-WWI Hungarian minorities.
Quote from: Tamas on October 11, 2017, 02:12:31 PM
I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.
Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.
It's not a Catalan dragon, it's a separatist dragon. Though I admit the difference is easy to miss for a foreigner.
On the left Catalonia's flag. On the right the separatist flag:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fe01-elmundo.uecdn.es%2Fassets%2Fmultimedia%2Fimagenes%2F2016%2F05%2F19%2F14636758309502.jpg&hash=8f260fc841ff54f8b78841d41a729bd39c8c513d)
So instead of the new Switzerland they want to be the new Cuba?
How can a separatist not use the national flag as their symbol?
Quote from: Barrister on October 11, 2017, 03:42:08 PM
How can a separatist not use the national flag as their symbol?
All the cool new countries have stars on their flags. Kosovo, South Sudan, Myanmar...
Quote from: Maladict on October 11, 2017, 03:51:17 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 11, 2017, 03:42:08 PM
How can a separatist not use the national flag as their symbol?
All the cool new countries have stars on their flags. Kosovo, South Sudan, Myanmar...
(https://fa707ec5abab9620c91c-e087a9513984a31bae18dd7ef8b1f502.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/7471975_20-most-expensive-paintings-in-the-world_t768d107f.jpg)
It's got to the point where the historical Catalan flag is slowly becoming an Unionist symbol. :lol:
By the way I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by both Rajoy and the leader of the Socialists today. One might be tempted to say the acted like actual statesmen. :blink:
For a 40 year old movement, they are really badly organized.
The old guard retired some time ago. Pujol might have been a crook (probably the biggest crook in the country) but he knew how to run things. His successor, Mas, was not anywhere near his caliber. The movement came to be dominated by the far-left (ERC, CUP). Puigdemont is just trying to stay above water.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2017, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Quote from: Drakken on October 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.
Good place to start.
Ten years ago I would maybe agree. Not anymore. It would make another go at this even more risky.
I'm all for dialogue but there are two things that have to happen:
- Everyone involved in setting this up ends in jail. Dialogue can start with whoever is in charge afterwards.
- The central government must keep control and oversight of any power that can turn against it.
that's not really autonomy. In fact, it's quite the opposite.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2017, 04:10:05 PM
By the way I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by both Rajoy and the leader of the Socialists today. One might be tempted to say the acted like actual statesmen. :blink:
Trying a delaying action against Rajoy is like challenging prime Mike Tyson to a fist-fight.
Quote from: viper37 on October 11, 2017, 04:21:09 PM
that's not really autonomy. In fact, it's quite the opposite.
They already have autonomy. The Generalitat is very welcome to continue to run hospitals or any number of other tasks as it sees fit. It has however proven incapable of responsible administration of police, education and state media. Much less taxation.
When your kid throws a party while you're away and thrashes your house you don't buy him a new BMW.
In parallel, we can engage on dialogue on how to change our constitution with the representatives Catalonia chooses in new elections. Personally, as stated before, I'm all for a referendum provided it requires a qualified majority and is undertaken on a local level. And there's probably more like me. All Catalonian nationalists have to do is drop the victim bullshit and start convincing people.
Quote from: celedhring on October 11, 2017, 03:57:29 PM
It's got to the point where the historical Catalan flag is slowly becoming an Unionist symbol. :lol:
LULZ
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2017, 01:27:20 PM
:lol:
Man, you guys suck at quelling regional tension.
:lol:
Man, you guys suck at understanding regional tension.
Who's you, Aristote?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2017, 03:33:59 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 11, 2017, 02:12:31 PM
I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.
Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.
It's not a Catalan dragon, it's a separatist dragon. Though I admit the difference is easy to miss for a foreigner.
On the left Catalonia's flag. On the right the separatist flag:
[img]http://e01-mg]
Funny coincidence that north east Spain has the same traditional flag as north east England :bowler:
Our northeastern flags are big on pine trees.
Quote from: Tyr on October 12, 2017, 07:49:12 AM
Funny coincidence that north east Spain has the same traditional flag as north east England :bowler:
You won't like that, but it's one of the reasons why I started following Newcastle United :P
Quote from: celedhring on October 12, 2017, 08:19:12 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 12, 2017, 07:49:12 AM
Funny coincidence that north east Spain has the same traditional flag as north east England :bowler:
You won't like that, but it's one of the reasons why I started following Newcastle United :P
So you chose our Espanyol.
Sunderland at least stick close to the proper colours :contract: :p
Espanyol are the Catalan mackems :P
Truth is that I've been following the PL since the 1990s, and it's more exciting when you've got skin in the game. NUFC are hilarious to follow, plus Bobby Robson managed Barça and the Nortumbria flag was cool and all.
Quote from: celedhring on October 12, 2017, 08:31:06 AM
Espanyol are the Catalan mackems :P
Truth is that I've been following the PL since the 1990s, and it's more exciting when you've got skin in the game. NUFC are hilarious to follow, plus Bobby Robson managed Barça and the Nortumbria flag was cool and all.
Futbol hijack, but man those Alan Shearer teams :)
Quote from: katmai on October 12, 2017, 08:56:24 AMFutbol hijack,
Speaking of which, what the fuck happened to you guys?
Quote from: katmai on October 12, 2017, 08:56:24 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 12, 2017, 08:31:06 AM
Espanyol are the Catalan mackems :P
Truth is that I've been following the PL since the 1990s, and it's more exciting when you've got skin in the game. NUFC are hilarious to follow, plus Bobby Robson managed Barça and the Nortumbria flag was cool and all.
Futbol hijack, but man those Alan Shearer teams :)
Yeah, Shearer was ace. One of my favorite foreign footballers when I was a kid.
For somebody that doesn't give that much of a damn, NUFC are a great team to follow. The drama is ever-present (hilariously so), yet they have a history of good teams and footballers which gives them a decent tradition.
Plus they're chaotic evil. That's always fun.
Quote from: Tyr on October 12, 2017, 10:22:17 AM
Plus they're chaotic evil. That's always fun.
The Orcs of the football world?
Quote from: Valmy on October 12, 2017, 10:28:44 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 12, 2017, 10:22:17 AM
Plus they're chaotic evil. That's always fun.
The Orcs of the football world?
Sort of.
But with lots of money. And humans in green paint joining their ranks in the quest for glory.
So, today's Spain's National Day, and there was an Unionist demo in Barcelona. Our Minority Leader was present.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fe00-elmundo.uecdn.es%2Fassets%2Fmultimedia%2Fimagenes%2F2017%2F10%2F12%2F15078286507444.jpg&hash=fee061ff068447fea54025545d970fc4e141b1dd)
Quote from: celedhring on October 12, 2017, 02:16:09 PM
So, today's Spain's National Day, and there was an Unionist demo in Barcelona. Our Minority Leader was present.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fe00-elmundo.uecdn.es%2Fassets%2Fmultimedia%2Fimagenes%2F2017%2F10%2F12%2F15078286507444.jpg&hash=fee061ff068447fea54025545d970fc4e141b1dd)
I'm convinced. Catalonia should definately remain part of Spain.
Radical separatists putting pressure on the Catalan President to rebuke Madrid's advances and un-suspend the DUI. Several public letters were issued yesterday and today by separatist NGOs and the far-left separatist party demanding it.
Madrid has given a deadline until next Monday for the regional government to clarify whether a DUI was issued this Tuesday (none was formally issued in Parliament, but separatist MPs signed one in an adjacent room), and retract it if affirmatively, while offering Constitutional reform. If the Catalan Government goes for glory, Catalan autonomy will be intervened and this place becomes the Sunny Ulster.
I hope sanity wins out.
Quote from: celedhring on October 13, 2017, 02:31:44 AM
Radical separatists putting pressure on the Catalan President to rebuke Madrid's advances and un-suspend the DUI. Several public letters were issued yesterday and today by separatist NGOs and the far-left separatist party demanding it.
Madrid has given a deadline until next Monday for the regional government to clarify whether a DUI was issued this Tuesday (none was formally issued in Parliament, but separatist MPs signed one in an adjacent room), and retract it if affirmatively, while offering Constitutional reform. If the Catalan Government goes for glory, Catalan autonomy will be intervened and this place becomes the Sunny Ulster.
I hope sanity wins out.
Heh - I assume you meant UDI.
DUI stands for "Driving under the influence". :)
Quote from: Barrister on October 13, 2017, 09:48:26 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 13, 2017, 02:31:44 AM
Radical separatists putting pressure on the Catalan President to rebuke Madrid's advances and un-suspend the DUI. Several public letters were issued yesterday and today by separatist NGOs and the far-left separatist party demanding it.
Madrid has given a deadline until next Monday for the regional government to clarify whether a DUI was issued this Tuesday (none was formally issued in Parliament, but separatist MPs signed one in an adjacent room), and retract it if affirmatively, while offering Constitutional reform. If the Catalan Government goes for glory, Catalan autonomy will be intervened and this place becomes the Sunny Ulster.
I hope sanity wins out.
Heh - I assume you meant UDI.
DUI stands for "Driving under the influence". :)
Yeah sorry, DUI is the Catalan acronym.
Quote from: celedhring on October 12, 2017, 02:16:09 PM
So, today's Spain's National Day, and there was an Unionist demo in Barcelona. Our Minority Leader was present.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fe00-elmundo.uecdn.es%2Fassets%2Fmultimedia%2Fimagenes%2F2017%2F10%2F12%2F15078286507444.jpg&hash=fee061ff068447fea54025545d970fc4e141b1dd)
Wrists are too bony.
internet standards and all that :P
Sadly no wrists on show here.
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/1c4tzam-gif.306080/)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vistoenforocoches.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2Fmelafo.gif&hash=82e7f503193849265e4e4d39980bb88023bc3236)
Quote from: celedhring on October 13, 2017, 02:03:19 PM
Sadly no wrists on show here.
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/1c4tzam-gif.306080/)
Are the elbows pointy?
So... we are reaching Monday. Any updates? Have they seen the light now?
Here in our usually "pro-Catalan" news in Quebec it was reported that a number of separatist groups are "spontaneously" assembling in Barcelona and other cities to "defende the independence of Catalonia".
Quote from: Drakken on October 15, 2017, 05:59:24 PM
So... we are reaching Monday. Any updates? Have they seen the light now?
Here in our usually "pro-Catalan" news in Quebec it was reported that a number of separatist groups are "spontaneously" assembling in Barcelona and other cities to "defende the independence of Catalonia".
Rumour is that he's going to issue a "yes and no" answer to the "did you declare independence?" question, and appeal once again for dialogue (of which the only acceptable outcome is independence, as set today by the Catalan VP). Thus bouncing back the ball towards Madrid, who'd start triggering the intervention of the autonomy unless there's a formal retraction of the UDI by Thursday.
There's been some private gatherings of "Committees for the Defence of the Republic" to organize. There hasn't been any public demo in Barcelona yet, though.
Surprisingly, one of the most important separatist newspapers has come out today against the UDI, arguing that the social, economic and political damage would be too high (NO SHIT SHERLOCK). Too little too late, methinks.
Also, the two heads of the two largest separatist NGOs and the head of the regional police are set again to appear before court in Madrid tomorrow under sedition charges. As usual, there's speculation of whether they'll make it back to Barcelona or will sleep behind bars. Personally, I'd be surprised if the judge decreed provisional detainment so early, but the whole thing is sealed so we don't know what kind of evidence the prosecution has provided.
The Catalan President's answer has already been made public. He actually doesn't answer Madrid's request (not even with a "yes but no" he just skirts the issue in the 2-page document), but requests direct negotiations with Rajoy and/or international mediation, and demands to stop the "repression from the central government" (directly asking that Madrid stops ongoing court proceedings because, yay separation of powers).
I suppose in due time there will be an English translation of the document somewhere.
I'm all for negotiation (really), but the only negotiation from the separatist camp (as said by themselves repeteadly) is about how to remove the "U" from UDI. Something that Madrid just won't and shouldn't ever entertain.
Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.
The Separatists made this move with 40%+ of the population being against them. It was unlikely it was not going to explode at some point under those circumstances.
I know. It's still going to suck.
Right now, there's a lot of cracks in the separatist coalition between moderates and radicals, but there's just not a way out for the moderates, they backed themselves into a corner. So Ulster it is. Sigh.
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 10:10:35 AM
Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.
I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?
Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 10:25:57 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 10:10:35 AM
Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.
I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?
Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...
Probably, but as a resident in rebellious territory, one was hoping for a whiff of sanity. The pronuncements by the EU and the flight of the largest Catalan companies in the past few weeks should have made apparent that unilateral independence is just a) not going to happen b) a really stupid idea.
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 10:25:57 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 10:10:35 AM
Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.
I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?
Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...
Nonsense. There are a number of middle ground resolutions that could be reached, but they'd all probably have to essentially return to the status 2006-2010.
Quote from: grumbler on October 16, 2017, 10:58:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 10:25:57 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 10:10:35 AM
Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.
I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?
Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...
Nonsense. There are a number of middle ground resolutions that could be reached, but they'd all probably have to essentially return to the status 2006-2010.
What was that status?
And wouldn't that be the separatists basically giving in?
Is a return to the 2006-2010 status the actual goal?
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 11:10:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 16, 2017, 10:58:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 10:25:57 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 10:10:35 AM
Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.
I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?
Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...
Nonsense. There are a number of middle ground resolutions that could be reached, but they'd all probably have to essentially return to the status 2006-2010.
What was that status?
And wouldn't that be the separatists basically giving in?
Is a return to the 2006-2010 status the actual goal?
That would indeed be the separatists giving in. 2006-2010 status isn't actually that different to what we have now, the only thing of note that was struck down from the 2006 statute was a partial devolution of the judiciary.
The Madrid government has offered Constitutional reform and discuss autonomy matters - which is a concession from them since they have always been against it -, so that's already on the table and refused by the separatists.
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 11:10:50 AM
What was that status?
Google "Catalon Statute of Autonomy 2006"
QuoteAnd wouldn't that be the separatists basically giving in?
Is a return to the 2006-2010 status the actual goal?
It would be both sides making concessions. It isn't the actual goal of either side, which is why it is a compromise.
The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country. However, the two leaders of the two largest separatist NGOs go to preventive detention.
I need bunker-building advice from Ed.
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country.
What if the country leaves them?
Quote from: Berkut on October 16, 2017, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country.
What if the country leaves them?
Good question :hmm:
Actually the purported transitional Constitution of the Catalan Republic incorporates immediate amnesty for all those involved in the run-up to independence.
The intensity of the demos/possible rioting in the next few days will tell us how much life there's left in this. I'm afraid it's gonna be quite a bit. The orgs these two lead have mobilized hundreds of thousands in the past.
Sigh.
Quote from: Savonarola on May 20, 2017, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 19, 2017, 04:20:46 PM
Almost finished with Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. Orwell's strengths are his clear prose, honesty, and earnestness. He's also terribly naive (something does admit to), and has terrible political instincts. His observations are pretty good, though I question his analysis sometimes. For instance, he notes that steady trickle of deserters come from the Nationalist lines but almost no deserters coming from the Republican lines. He claims this is because of the superiority of the message the propaganda broadcasters on the loud speakers. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that the part of the lines Orwell was manned by volunteers and the nationalists were using conscripts in that location at the time has more to do with it. I also suspect that the propaganda of creating a socialist world was less effective than the messages about plentiful food.
CB and I stayed at the same hotel the Orwells did. The descriptions of the street fighting on The Ramblas seem unbelievable today; that's tourist trap central.
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,124.msg1083084.html#msg1083084
Bolded for emphasis.
It's amazing how things can change in just a few months.
Quote from: celedhring on October 16, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country. However, the two leaders of the two largest separatist NGOs go to preventive detention.
I need bunker-building advice from Ed.
Got a basement? 3 months food and water. Don't wait till the "Neighborhood protection" units start forming. Or "patriotic defense brigades"
Get a couple of axes and crowbars. Refill all prescriptions and keep a good first aid kit.
I'll pray for you.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-catalan-independence-referendum-spain-constitutional-court-void-a8004941.html
QuoteCatalonia: Spain's constitutional court declares Catalan referendum law void
Spain's top court has officially ruled that Catalonia's disputed independence referendum was illegal because a regional law that backed it was against Spain's constitution.
The Catalan regional parliament passed the so-called "self-determination referendum law" in early September.
Regional leaders went on to stage the October 1 referendum on whether the region should separate from Spain.
Spain's Constitutional Court had earlier suspended the law temporarily while judges assessed the Spanish government's objection to it.
In its ruling on Tuesday, the court said the law was against national sovereignty and the "indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".
The court said that the parliamentary session that approved the law was also illegal.
Catalan government spokesman Jordi Turull said he was not surprised, saying: "We are facing an executive power in the state that uses the judiciary branch to block the legislative."
A Madrid judge on Monday provisionally jailed Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart, the leaders of grassroots organisations (sic) Catalan National Assembly and Omnium Cultural.
The judge ruled they were orchestrators of massive demonstrations on September 20 to 21 in Barcelona that hindered a police operation against preparations for the October 1 independence referendum.
It was to be expected but, nonetheless, it's now set in stone: The Catalan Assembly was and still is in illegality with this referendum, and if they continue to base on its results they are, in effect, rebels.
Ah, and this small nugget from RT:
Quote
The reply it gave on Monday was deemed "not valid" by Madrid, threatening to suspend Catalonia's autonomy under Article 155. However, the Catalan authorities remain adamant and say they "won't give anything different" on Thursday.
The Catalan government has indicated that they'll give no further response to Madrid, and the separatist parlamentary groups have announced they are working in the "parlamentary implementation of the results of the referendum" - so, the UDI.
The next two weeks will be pure shitstorm.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 12, 2017, 05:04:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 12, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
We wouldn't get back into the EU anytime soon. If only per encourager les autres. Spain has veto, too.
And yet taking a hardline on Catexit would be kind of cutting the nose to spite the face.
I would assume that an independent Catalonia would port over most existing EU law and regs to national law, and immediately seek EEA status. Does that require unanimous consent from every EU state? In any case, hard to think of a reasoned basis for refusing.
Once they're in EFTA/EEA seems to me full EU membership would be just a matter of time.
Haven't seen anything on English-speaking media, but apparently the head of EFTA just closed that particular door.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 17, 2017, 05:29:11 PM
Haven't seen anything on English-speaking media, but apparently the head of EFTA just closed that particular door.
Croatia is only provisionally a member of EEA because all states within EEA have not yet agreed to its membership. So, presumably, Spain can veto a Catalon EEA membership. Only the EFTA members have to agree with membership in the EFTA, but that doesn't confer membership in the EEA.
Madrid says that it won't intervene the Catalan autonomy if the Catalan president calls for elections, after rumours appeared in the separatist camp that he might do so and call them "Constituent Elections" (Madrid won't give a shit about what they chose to call them, since they would be triggered using Spanish law).
Of course, the radical faction won't buy that unless there's an UDI before the elections are called.
Why does a small minority faction of a minority faction get to dictate the future of Catalonia?
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2017, 09:25:00 AM
Why does a small minority faction of a minority faction get to dictate the future of Catalonia?
You're the fan of the French Revolution. You should know how these things work out.
In short: when the mobs are agitated, you don't want to be the one they call traitor.
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2017, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2017, 09:25:00 AM
Why does a small minority faction of a minority faction get to dictate the future of Catalonia?
You're the fan of the French Revolution. You should know how these things work out.
In short: when the mobs are agitated, you don't want to be the one they call traitor.
:face:
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2017, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2017, 09:25:00 AM
Why does a small minority faction of a minority faction get to dictate the future of Catalonia?
You're the fan of the French Revolution. You should know how these things work out.
In short: when the mobs are agitated, you don't want to be the one they call traitor.
Well ok you got me there. But at least in the French Revolution you needed a major war to break out for radicalism to rule the day.
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2017, 09:41:07 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2017, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2017, 09:25:00 AM
Why does a small minority faction of a minority faction get to dictate the future of Catalonia?
You're the fan of the French Revolution. You should know how these things work out.
In short: when the mobs are agitated, you don't want to be the one they call traitor.
Well ok you got me there. But at least in the French Revolution you needed a major war to break out for radicalism to rule the day.
We're just another episode of the weird wave of wealthy and free western societies where a bunch of its constituents suddenly decide that they are being OPRESSED and must BREAK FREE. In this case the nationalists were smart to capture that discontent and use it to their ends (the ruling moderate nationalist party was widely unpopular before they embraced separatism as a means of political survival), but they can't really control the behemoth.
The Catalan Government says that if Madrid intervenes the autonomy, there will be an UDI. Madrid considers this answer "unsatisfactory" and that the Generalitat hasn't satisfied its request to return to the Constitutional order, thus it will proceed to trigger article 155 to enable intervention of the Generalitat. This can take a couple weeks, though, since it requires a debate and a vote in the Senate where the Generalitat can present its arguments.
It will be hell.
By the way, just found out that a "Committee for the Defence of the Republic" has already been formed in the town next to mine.
Is there already a Comité de salut public being formed :ph34r:
Careful, the French references could be seen a catalan tendency to minimise or deny their Iberian-ness. :P Hence, pro-independence. ;)
When Catalan Emperor Napoleon IV puts his brother on the throne of Spain they will all be sorry.
The separatists are trying to organize a bank run on the two Catalan banks that moved their HQ outside of Catalonia to ensure they remain under the EBC umbrella "just in case".
They'll only manage to withdraw a rounding error in those banks' total deposits, but this is bordering on Darwin Award-esque.
Y'all need Suchet to restore order.
Rajoy's government and the Socialist opposition came to an agreement for new regional elections to be held in Catalonia this January - obviously without the Catalan parliament's prior consent since Article 155 is all but a formality now.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41693318
The moderate majority of pro independnece people have come around right?
As this sounds increasingly messy.
It will be messy. It looks like the Catalan Parliament will formally issue an UDI next week and will decree that it no longer recognizes Spain's authority to take over. In the long run Spain wins, if only because it holds the keys to the treasury and the Generalitat is utterly bankrupt, but we could be facing a lot unstability in the next weeks. What the regional police does will be key - the brass is loyal to the separatists, as is a sizable part of the agents, but are they really willing to embrace armed rebellion?
I think the main reason that Spain will win is because the separatists lack an overwhelming mandate. That have, at best, a narrow one.
But it sounds like with the EEC and the EU and the lack of funds their hand is even weaker than that. So why are they gambling on this? They must think this will ultimately allow them to win eventually.
Quote from: Valmy on October 20, 2017, 09:38:59 AM
I think the main reason that Spain will win is because the separatists lack an overwhelming mandate. That have, at best, a narrow one.
But it sounds like with the EEC and the EU and the lack of funds their hand is even weaker than that. So why are they gambling on this? They must think this will ultimately allow them to win eventually.
It will keep them alive politically. If they surrendered it would kill the cause for a generation and the separatist coallition would collapse to infighting between moderates and radicals, but "evil Spanish repression against the mandate of the people" adds a bunch of grudges to the "we are oppressed!!!!" list, and keeps them united and mobilized.
So it is less about achieving their actual goals and more about venal political strategerey? I mean they stand to lose a lot here...er...rather I mean Catalonia stands to lose a lot here.
Quote from: Valmy on October 20, 2017, 09:56:32 AM
So it is less about achieving their actual goals and more about venal political strategerey? I mean they stand to lose a lot here...er...rather I mean Catalonia stands to lose a lot here.
I never expect nationalists to actually care for the welfare of the people they claim to defend. It's Catalonia above all, including the Catalans.
First poll since the referendum says that 68.6% of Catalans want regional elections, only 30% support an UDI. Separatist support for the UDI hovers around 60%, which isn't that high given that they are, well, separatists.
Poll is from the second largest Catalan paper, moderate leftist, whose editorial line in the issue is "can't we all just get along?"
Rajoy announcing the scope of the intervention:
- Regional elections in maximum of 6 months (preferably earlier)
- Catalan president and his cabinet are deposed. Everybody else remains in place and reports to the state.
- Parliament will remain in place and active, but any legislation put for a vote can be vetoed by the state if it's judged to be against the Constitution. Parliament can't appoint another Catalan president until the election.
This is not immediate. Has to be debated in the Senate, etc... probably going to be approved this next Friday.
I suppose in a few minutes the regional government will declare that it doesn't accept the intervention. And then the wheels are well and truly off.
EDIT: Catalan president to make a declaration at 21.00
That was rather mild. Let's see what the Mossos do when they have to engage separatist targets ...
Catalan president announces that Parliament will meet to debate the answer to the suspension (no date yet, likely Tuesday some say even Monday). Doesn't directly mention an UDI, but one assumes that's what's going to be on the table.
Prez of the Catalonian Parlament: "Applying article 155 of the Constitution is unconstitutional". :hmm:
Its limits have never been constitutionally tested, because it has never been used before.
I suppose the Constitutional Court will be very busy in the coming months.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 22, 2017, 03:55:06 AM
Prez of the Catalonian Parlament: "Applying article 155 of the Constitution is unconstitutional". :hmm:
How can an article of the Constitution be unconstitutional? :hmm:
Improperly amended/added? :hmm:
It should be interesting to watch the Spanish government rolling in the tank, and crushing the separatist's barricade.
One whole tank?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/NKp0Pd7OGAqNW/giphy.gif)
This thread just got awesome.
Catalan Parliament will meet Thursday morning (one day before the intervention comes into effect) to debate their actions.
Scenarios are:
- UDI: The Generalitat no longer recognizes Madrid's authority to intervene it, and prepares to defend the regional government. Low-intensity Civil War ensues. All fun and giggles. However, Madrid wins at the end. The whole thing only serves to sow the seeds of discord for another generation. It's the "die to fight another day" option.
- UDI + Elections triggered under Spanish law: The Schrödinger option. Madrid would still intervene the autonomy since they issued an UDI, but it would be difficult to anull the elections if they are triggered using the existing Spanish law. This would give separatists control of the election timing while they prop up conflict in the streets. They could call them for mid-December and fight the intervention for a limited time, and get a renewed mandate in a "hot" election. One thing: the ruling moderate separatist party would be annihilated by the radicals in an election.
- Elections: No UDI and a regional election (the separatists would probably call them "Constituent", but who cares) would make it politically more difficult for Madrid to approve the intervention. The Generalitat could then face the election in full control of the regional power. However, the separatist radicals would certainly disapprove of a "surrender". As above, the ruling moderate party would be electorally annihilated.
Meanwhile, the number of companies that have moved their HQ away from Catalonia now totals 30% of the region's GDP. In most cases this is just symbolic - although a Catalan Republic would now be born with a much weakened corporate tax base - but the talks of an investment freeze are pretty deafening too. Retail and tourism are reporting a contraction of 20-30% compared to same month last year.
Time plays against separatists, the whole thing can easily collapse after, say, 3 consecutive months of job losses and an official recession. So my belief is that they will try to force an election ASAP.
Quote from: Habbaku on October 22, 2017, 05:31:20 PM
Improperly amended/added? :hmm:
It has never been deployed, or clarified via legislation. So depending on whom you ask it allows Madrid to do anything it wants or nearly nothing. The thing will end up in the Constitutional Court, who going by usual timings won't rule after the whole thing has come and gone (the intervention will last 6 months tops).
Is this the shit keeping the euro (and chf) low where the pound should be losing against it? :angry:
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 22, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
One whole tank?
Spain might still have the tanks they used in 'Patton' on hand. :hmm: :)
We have 300-something Leo 2. I think that's more than even Germany currently has. Readiness is really suspect, though.
"Spanish tanks entering Barcelona" is one of the most recurrent fantasies of Catalan nationalism.
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 10:31:48 AM
We have 300-something Leo 2. I think that's more than even Germany currently has. Readiness is really suspect, though.
"Spanish tanks entering Barcelona" is one of the most recurrent fantasies of Catalan nationalism.
No Fifth Column? No Moors? No Requetés? Disappointed.
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 10:31:48 AM
We have 300-something Leo 2. I think that's more than even Germany currently has. Readiness is really suspect, though.
"Spanish tanks entering Barcelona" is one of the most recurrent fantasies of Catalan nationalism.
I hear Putin has offered T-26 tanks to Catalan separatists, but is demanding payment in gold :(
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:40:14 AM
It has never been deployed, or clarified via legislation. So depending on whom you ask it allows Madrid to do anything it wants or nearly nothing. The thing will end up in the Constitutional Court, who going by usual timings won't rule after the whole thing has come and gone (the intervention will last 6 months tops).
The clause is so ambiguous, the drafters of the constitution must not have thought it would ever be used. More of a tip of the hat to the supremacy of a national government then a procedural remedy to interfere with regional government. And what about the bilateral agreements that were made with Catalonia to give them further autonomy since the constitution came into effect?
As you say, the constitutional court is going to have some difficult times ahead.
Quote from: derspiess on October 23, 2017, 10:38:40 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 10:31:48 AM
We have 300-something Leo 2. I think that's more than even Germany currently has. Readiness is really suspect, though.
"Spanish tanks entering Barcelona" is one of the most recurrent fantasies of Catalan nationalism.
I hear Putin has offered T-26 tanks to Catalan separatists, but is demanding payment in gold :(
:lol:
This does really feel like the 1930s sometimes. Hopefully it won't end so badly.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 23, 2017, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:40:14 AM
It has never been deployed, or clarified via legislation. So depending on whom you ask it allows Madrid to do anything it wants or nearly nothing. The thing will end up in the Constitutional Court, who going by usual timings won't rule after the whole thing has come and gone (the intervention will last 6 months tops).
The clause is so ambiguous, the drafters of the constitution must not have thought it would ever be used. More of a tip of the hat to the supremacy of a national government then a procedural remedy to interfere with regional government. And what about the bilateral agreements that were made with Catalonia to give them further autonomy since the constitution came into effect?
As you say, the constitutional court is going to have some difficult times ahead.
There are no bilateral agreements anymore. That whole slew of piecemeal devolved powers were incorporated into the Statute of 2006, which itself is part of the Constitutional order - the separatists have flouted it too - but subordinated to the Constitution. These devolved powers were not originally written in the Constitution, but the approach used was "if the Constitution doesn't say it's exclusive of the central government, then it can be devolved".
But as you say, Article 155 was the kind of thing written expecting never to be used. So we're in legal Terra Incognita. It's actually copied verbatim from the German Constitution - but they have never applied it either.
Strong rumours that the Catalan President will ask to appear in front of the Spanish Senate to argue the Generalitat's side in the application of Article 155 - but it's not fully confirmed yet. This would go against everything he's done so far (he's always refused to appear in the Spanish Congress or Senate, always arguing for "bilateral" negotiations), and would certainly preclude an UDI this week (you don't go to the Spanish Senate after declaring yourself independent surely).
I've been disappointed too many times to hope for a deescalation, but...
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 23, 2017, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:40:14 AM
It has never been deployed, or clarified via legislation. So depending on whom you ask it allows Madrid to do anything it wants or nearly nothing. The thing will end up in the Constitutional Court, who going by usual timings won't rule after the whole thing has come and gone (the intervention will last 6 months tops).
The clause is so ambiguous, the drafters of the constitution must not have thought it would ever be used. More of a tip of the hat to the supremacy of a national government then a procedural remedy to interfere with regional government. And what about the bilateral agreements that were made with Catalonia to give them further autonomy since the constitution came into effect?
As you say, the constitutional court is going to have some difficult times ahead.
There are no bilateral agreements anymore. That whole slew of piecemeal devolved powers were incorporated into the Statute of 2006, which itself is part of the Constitutional order - the separatists have flouted it too - but subordinated to the Constitution. These devolved powers were not originally written in the Constitution, but the approach used was "if the Constitution doesn't say it's exclusive of the central government, then it can be devolved".
But as you say, Article 155 was the kind of thing written expecting never to be used. So we're in legal Terra Incognita. It's actually copied verbatim from the German Constitution - but they have never applied it either.
Ah, thanks for setting me straight :)
The German article 37 is indeed very similar to Spain's article 155. It's called "Federal Execution" and allows the federal government to appoint a commissar who has absolute authority to enforce federal law with all necessary means.
It goes back to the Holy Roman Empire and was the way the emperor could enforce princely obligations and decisions of the Reichstag and has been a feature of every German constitution since the Middle Ages. It was last used in the Weimar Republic, infamously in the Preußenschlag of 1932, which paved the road for Hitler.
Modern Germany being ruled by law most likely means that it cannot be enacted before there was a case between the federal government and the state in the constitutional court first and there is a decision in favor of the federal government and the federal state is in contempt of the court order.
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2017, 12:03:26 PM
Modern Germany being ruled by law most likely means that it cannot be enacted before there was a case between the federal government and the state in the constitutional court first and there is a decision in favor of the federal government and the federal state is in contempt of the court order.
Well, that's certainly the case here. The Catalan government has been in contempt of the Constitutional Court for well over a month.
The Catalan nationalist parties in southern France have offered to host a Catalan government in exile in Perpignan. :lol:
I'm sure the French authorities would love it.
The difficulty stems from that gray zone where political issues are being asked to be solved constitutionally. It can never truly be, unless one political side is already so weak as to make the legal conclusion almost foreordained.
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
The Catalan nationalist parties in southern France have offered to host a Catalan government in exile in Perpignan. :lol:
I'm sure the French authorities would love it.
Nous sommes trahis!!
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 23, 2017, 06:58:07 PM
The difficulty stems from that gray zone where political issues are being asked to be solved constitutionally. It can never truly be, unless one political side is already so weak as to make the legal conclusion almost foreordained.
Isn't that the purpose of a constitution - to regulate how political issues will be determined within the jurisdiction governed by the constitution. The alternative is to set aside the constitution and make new rules.
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
The Catalan nationalist parties in southern France have offered to host a Catalan government in exile in Perpignan. :lol:
I'm sure the French authorities would love it.
That's just being French hipster about things.
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
The Catalan nationalist parties in southern France have offered to host a Catalan government in exile in Perpignan. :lol:
I'm sure the French authorities would love it.
If they hosted it in Avignon, they could use the infrastructure that's already there.
Quote from: celedhring on October 23, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
The Catalan nationalist parties in southern France have offered to host a Catalan government in exile in Perpinyà. :lol:
I'm sure the French authorities would love it.
Didn't you get the memo? :P
As for French "Catalan nationalist parties", does it mean there is more than one? :P It's not like they have mass support (hundreds of supporters), probably less support than Rugby League (though sometimes matching), very popular in the
Roussillon Rosselló.
As for Avignon, I am waiting for Pope Francis statement on the matter. :pope:
PS: about the "parties"...
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/monde/europe/catalogne-puigdemont-et-ses-ministres-bientot-en-exil-a-perpignan_1954882.html (http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/monde/europe/catalogne-puigdemont-et-ses-ministres-bientot-en-exil-a-perpignan_1954882.html)
So it's two parties or associations, offering a 400 sq. metre villa for Puigdemont, plus 25 flats for the government.
QuoteÀ Perpignan, deux mouvements catalanistes s'organisent pour trouver des logements destinés à accueillir le gouvernement de Carles Puigdemont en cas d'exil forcé.
Le département français des Pyrénées-Orientales sera-t-il une zone de repli pour Carles Puigdemont? Vendredi, l'application de l'article 155 de la constitution est mise au vote au Sénat espagnol. Si une majorité de parlementaires vote "oui", Madrid prendra le contrôle de l'exécutif catalan, l'autonomie de la Catalogne sera donc suspendue, et son gouvernement destitué. Alors, pour certains militants indépendantistes catalans français, il faut faire vite et se préparer à toute éventualité. Dont celle d'une fuite forcée du chef du gouvernement vers la France, en cas de menace d'arrestation pour sédition.
"Nous avons pour l'instant 25 appartements mis à dispositions par nos sympathisants prêts à les accueillir, explique à L'Express Robert Casanovas, président du Comité d'autodétermination de la Catalogne Nord. Et une villa de 400 m² pour Puigdemont. Ils pourront y rester le temps qu'ils voudront." Selon lui, le risque d'une arrestation du chef du gouvernement régional est "élevé", c'est pourquoi son mouvement, associé au parti régionaliste Unitat Catalana, se devait de réagir. "Par solidarité avec nos frères du sud", dit-il.
"Nous sommes le même peuple"
"Cela s'inscrit dans la continuité des actions que nous avons mené jusqu'à présent, poursuit-il. Avant le référendum, nous avons fait venir les urnes et nous les avons caché chez nous. Nous avons également fait imprimer, par des entreprises amies, de nombreux bulletins pour que ce vote puisse avoir lieu. C'est normal, nous sommes le même peuple." En tout, six millions de bulletins ont été imprimés depuis la France, en coopération avec d'autres groupes tels que le parti politique Oui au Pays Catalan.
Des revendications catalanistes qui ne sont pas nées avec le référendum du 1er octobre. Formé en 2014, le Comité a mené plusieurs campagnes pour que la Catalogne espagnole et celle française puisse se réunir "comme avant le traité des Pyrénées" datant du 17e siècle.
Référendum d'autodétermination... en France
Elle a même tenté, en 2016, d'organiser une consultation dans le département avec deux questions simples: "êtes-vous favorable à une grande Catalogne regroupant la Catalogne Sud et la Catalogne Nord dans un seul État indépendant et souverain?" et "êtes-vous favorable à ce que la Catalogne Nord devienne seule un État indépendant et souverain?" Une démarche empêchée par la préfecture, par un recours en justice.
Ce combat remis à plus tard, les deux structures et leurs "centaines d'adhérents" mettent désormais toutes leurs forces dans l'aide qu'elles peuvent apporter à Barcelone. Depuis que cette chasse aux logements a été rendue publique, et reprise par France Bleu Roussillon, ils recevraient de "nombreux appels" de personnes proposant leur logement pour que les gouvernants catalans puissent y trouver refuge, d'après Robert Casanovas. Pour autant, l'initiative ne fait pas l'unanimité dans les rangs catalanistes.
Chez le parti Oui au Pays Catalan, on ne voit pas cette initiative d'un bon oeil. Le premier parti régionaliste du département, qui présente des candidats à chaque élection locale, dénonce "des gens qui vivent dans un rêve". "Ce n'est pas sérieux, réagi son président, Jordi Vera, joint par L'Express. Imprimer des bulletins et cacher des urnes faisaient partie de notre devoir de solidarité, nous y avons pris notre part. Mais anticiper un exil du gouvernement catalan, c'est ridicule."
A Barcelone, menaces de désobéissance
D'après lui, ce serait même une stratégie perdante pour la cause indépendantiste. "Vous imaginez un président fuir et laisser son peuple?", demande-t-il. Si une vague d'arrestations pour sédition de ministres catalans est ordonnée, comme ça a pu être le cas la semaine dernière pour Jordi Sanchez et Jordi Cuixart, deux dirigeants d'associations indépendantistes (ANC et Omnium), il leur faudrait l'accepter d'après Vera. Même si le délit de sédition est passible de 15 ans de prison en Espagne.
En référence, il cite le cas de Lluís Companys, ex-président de Catalogne qui avait été emprisonné en 1934 pour avoir proclamé l'indépendance de la région. "Aujourd'hui nous ne sommes pas en 1939, personne n'est menacé de mort, lance-t-il. Le combat doit être démocratique et dans les assemblées plutôt que dans la clandestinité."
À Barcelone, les événements semblent prendre cette direction. La majorité séparatiste du parlement régional catalan a annoncé la tenue d'une séance parlementaire jeudi. Le but: analyser "l'agression institutionnelle" du gouvernement conservateur de Mariano Rajoy, selon les précisions du chef de la coalition sécessionniste "Ensemble pour le oui" au parlement, Lluis Corominas.
En cas de mise en oeuvre de mesures drastiques de la part de Madrid, les séparatistes ont menacé de faire voter une déclaration unilatérale d'indépendance au parlement catalan. Dans le même temps, l'aile la plus radicale des indépendantistes a promis d'orchestrer une campagne de "désobéissance massive" si Madrid persiste dans sa volonté de suspendre l'autonomie de la Catalogne. La lutte d'abord, donc. Si fuite il y a, ce sera pour plus tard.
Tf;dr
Looks like the Catalan president will appear tomorrow in front of the Senate commission transacting the intervention to argue the regional government's side (that's part of the process but most assumed he wouldn't care). That's progress - he's refused consistently to appear in the national Congress or Senate to argue his position - although I don't expect any kind of compromise. I'm still looking at an UDI tomorrow afternoon or friday. And then pandemonium.
I hope to be wrong.
EDIT: The Catalan government saying that he won't go to that hearing. Last chance of de-escalation, gone.
There's also a very persistent rumor that the most moderate members of the Catalan cabinet will quit before an UDI - if anything to avoid the 30 years in the slammer for open rebellion -, so if that happens in the next few hours it will be a sign of things to come.
What's their logic there?
Isn't it better if they stay in their jobs and go on behaving like a part of Spain?
Quote from: Tyr on October 25, 2017, 05:30:25 AM
What's their logic there?
Isn't it better if they stay in their jobs and go on behaving like a part of Spain?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-uyKkPUIAAxDzm.png)
The radical separatist strategy right now is pretty much turning Catalonia into Spain's Vietnam and force international intervention. It is pure madness.
Separatist NGOs calling for mass mobilization in front of the Catalan Parliament this Friday to "Protect the Republic"
Off to the bunker I go!
Such a pity, this is off course also closely followed in the Belgian press.
It could become a bit uncomfortable here for the moderate seperatists over here as well.
They support Catalan independence and are part of Belgian federal government, but the Belgian govt as part of the EU no way will recognize Catalan independence.
Curious how they're going to try to get out of this one.
Well, in a massive about face, it looks like the Catalan President is going to call for a regional election in exchange of freezing the intervention of the regional government. He's about to give a press conference. And looking at the anger from the radical separatist camp, it looks like it's true.
That would be massively good news. Please please be true.
Elections, protests...don't any of you people have jobs? I mean, even by European standards?
Catalan President's conference has been cancelled and he's set to appear before Parliament now. FFS this is killing me. I hope he doesn't do an about face of his about face.
The radical separatists are going ballistic, meanwhile, with the "treason!" chants. There's some spontaneous demos in front of the moderate separatist party HQ - with riot police deployed to protect it - and the seat of the Catalan Government. The revolution always devours its children.
How long will the presidents negotiations go on?
Hope there's some clear roadmap in the next few weeks.
On the bright side... Hey. Got to improve (decrease) property prices.
Quote from: Tyr on October 26, 2017, 09:29:51 AM
How long will the presidents negotiations go on?
Hope there's some clear roadmap in the next few weeks.
On the bright side... Hey. Got to improve (decrease) property prices.
He'll appear in half an hour, he's kept postponing his declaration the whole day. No one knows what he's going to say. It's confirmed this morning he was set to call an election, but since he's been procastrinating the announcement everybody now fears he's been swayed to the UDI side, given the massive opposition of the separatist parties and NGOs to an election.
A legal regional election would be the best possible outcome at this moment. Please, make it happen.
Catalan President says he's not got enough guarantees from Madrid that the autonomy wouldn't be intervened (Madrid just said it would be "flexible") and so he's not calling for elections and instead defers to Parliament. So UDI it is, tomorrow after lunch time civil war starts in Catalonia.
We'll see what the Spanish Gov has to say.
Dang, sorry :(
Shit :(
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 10:10:43 AM
Catalan President says he's not got enough guarantees from Madrid that the autonomy wouldn't be intervened (Madrid just said it would be "flexible") and so he's not calling for elections and instead defers to Parliament. So UDI it is, tomorrow after lunch time civil war starts in Catalonia.
We'll see what the Spanish Gov has to say.
Jesus H. Christ. They really want Spain to go all-the-way and claim victimhood for posterity's sake, i.e. the Irish way.
Quote from: Drakken on October 26, 2017, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 10:10:43 AM
Catalan President says he's not got enough guarantees from Madrid that the autonomy wouldn't be intervened (Madrid just said it would be "flexible") and so he's not calling for elections and instead defers to Parliament. So UDI it is, tomorrow after lunch time civil war starts in Catalonia.
We'll see what the Spanish Gov has to say.
Jesus H. Christ. They really want Spain to go all-the-way and claim victimhood for posterity's sake, i.e. the Irish way.
That's pretty much it. My only hope is that people are so tired about the whole thing that open street conflict remains relatively small-scale/short-lived.
Tomorrow we'll see how many Catalan MPs want to sign up for rebellion charges, too.
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 10:45:21 AM
That's pretty much it. My only hope is that people are so tired about the whole thing that open street conflict remains relatively small-scale/short-lived.
Tomorrow we'll see how many Catalan MPs want to sign up for rebellion charges, too.
If Madrid even allows that. Now the gloves are off.
Does Article 155 suspends parliamentary immunity as well?
If I were the cute hot leader of the Opposition and her caucus, I would make a very symbolic and high-profile gesture to rally opponents (and moderates) now. Something like a big declaration, announcing that they are loyal to the King and to the Spanish state and they leave this illegal, illegitimate Catalan parliament which is adamantly trying to throw Catalonia into chaos, but that she understands the popular want for autonomy and that she is willing to open discussions with the Central government when this is all over. They will need more "rational" interlocutors to save whatever remains to be saved after Puidgemont and his cronies are dealt with.
Parliamentarism is now out of the window. Puidgement is entering civil war territory. They must ensure that the least people possible are hurt - while making sure to take a stand to rally opposition. They also need to show Madrid that they are taking no part in this mockery. Staying in Parliament after an UDI, even as (Dis)loyal Opposition, helps to legitimize the whole thing.
Quote from: Drakken on October 26, 2017, 10:57:38 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 10:45:21 AM
That's pretty much it. My only hope is that people are so tired about the whole thing that open street conflict remains relatively small-scale/short-lived.
Tomorrow we'll see how many Catalan MPs want to sign up for rebellion charges, too.
If Madrid even allows that. Now the gloves are off.
Does Article 155 suspends parliamentary immunity as well?
If I were the cute hot leader of the Opposition and her caucus, I would make a very symbolic and high-profile gesture now. Something like a big declaration, announcing that they are loyal to the King and to the Spanish state and they leave this illegal, illegitimate Catalan parliament which is adamantly trying to throw Catalonia into chaos.
They need to show Madrid that they are taking no part in this mockery. Staying in Parliament after an UDI, even as (Dis)loyal Opposition, helps to legitimize the whole thing.
The opposition has always left the building whenever the separatists have put any illegal stuff up for vote.
It's gonna be difficut to block the vote. Article 155 will go into effect in the afternoon, and the separatists will try to get the UDI in before that and then claim that Spain no longer has authority.
Regarding immunity, regional MPs have a small degree of parliamentary immunity. They can only be judged by the Spanish Supreme Court, but otherwise there's no need of a special procedure (like it happens with national MPs or members of the national Gov).
So, what was the main line of the Leader of the Opposition's attack on Puidgemont? She seemed to be trolling him when she had the floor for her speech.
I also heard the Speaker trying to tell her to be silent on the live feed, multiple times.
Quote from: Drakken on October 26, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
So, what was the main line of the Leader of the Opposition's attack on Puidgemont? She seemed to be trolling him when she had the floor for her speech.
I also heard the Speaker trying to tell her to be silent on the live feed, multiple times.
"We want to vote, but a real vote, a legal vote. And you're afraid of it."
EDIT: Manuel Valls liked it https://twitter.com/manuelvalls/status/923589765336838146
According to the press, the conditions that the Catalan President demanded to call for elections were a) suspension of the intervention of the Catalan autonomy b) Immediate release of the two leaders of the largest separatist NGOs charged with sedition c) suspension of legal proceedings against those involved in the independence process d) retreat of the police reinforcements that Madrid has sent to Catalonia.
b) and c) are unacceptable to me - I mean, separation of powers FFS. They are not even eligible for amnesty until after the actual trial finishes. So I'm fine with Madrid telling them to walk it.
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 11:06:50 AM
Regarding immunity, regional MPs have a small degree of parliamentary immunity. They can only be judged by the Spanish Supreme Court, but otherwise there's no need of a special procedure (like it happens with national MPs or members of the national Gov).
The Catalan High Court can also judge them as well.
You know, it's kind of a shame we don't have any Catalan separatists on the board for this. :hmm:
They are all on the OT Forum.
The entire opposition beating down on them today. Great interventions all around. Even the wishy-washy far lefties are laying the smackdown on the separatists (not Podemos though).
And naturally, the Catalan President has refused to take the floor to say his piece. They'll never win the battle where it counts, so they don't even fight it.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 26, 2017, 12:39:07 PM
You know, it's kind of a shame we don't have any Catalan separatists on the board for this. :hmm:
I have two as facebook 'friends'. They have been very quiet the last few days.
Quote from: Drakken on October 26, 2017, 10:57:38 AM
... the cute hot leader of the Opposition...
:rolleyes: Cute? Hot? Look at the points on those elbows!
(https://s3.eestatic.com/2016/07/27/actualidad/Actualidad_143248662_10707781_1706x1706.jpg)
So she's a monster in the paint, still hot.
Not all that keen on the schnozz, which, IMHO, is the cornerstone of prettiness.
That food looks like a pile of old dogshit.
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 12:20:25 PMb) and c) are unacceptable to me - I mean, separation of powers FFS. They are not even eligible for amnesty until after the actual trial finishes. So I'm fine with Madrid telling them to walk it.
But isn't that the crux of the matter? Countries generally do not have constitutional provisions for ceasing to exist - especially not countries which have had a history of erasing how their "territorial integrity" came about from the many hiccups of a tumultuous history. So, to reduce the matter to a question of law to be dealt with by the tribunal seems to me to want to reduce a political movement, claiming political legitimacy irreducible to a constitutional order, to be judged by the very constitutional order they renounce.
It would be something if such rejection was done in the name of fascism, or nazism - but here, it was rooted in claims of popular sovereignty tied to the question of a vote. Once Madrid absolutely refused to make it a political process, and sought the foreordained conclusions of the courts, sought to repress a referendum, what would have been the correct course of action? What is the correct course of action now?
The question at the heart of the matter is this: what would it take for a Catalan independence movement to be deemed legitimate by Madrid. If, at any given moment, the only possible answer is "nothing", then one shouldn't be surprised to see Catalans seeking political legitimacy in any way they can. And so far, it does seem that the only thing Madrid has answered is "nothing".
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 26, 2017, 08:22:28 PM
But isn't that the crux of the matter? Countries generally do not have constitutional provisions for ceasing to exist - especially not countries which have had a history of erasing how their "territorial integrity" came about from the many hiccups of a tumultuous history. So, to reduce the matter to a question of law to be dealt with by the tribunal seems to me to want to reduce a political movement, claiming political legitimacy irreducible to a constitutional order, to be judged by the very constitutional order they renounce.
The problem is the separatist movement itself rather than the legal technicalities. Again the issue is they would have a point if:
#1 they had a legitimate grievance against Spain for abusing their rights. They do not. Well ok they do but ones from 40 years ago.
#2 they had an overwhelming majority of the local population on their side. They do not. They are facing strong opposition from 40+% of their own population.
QuoteThe question at the heart of the matter is this: what would it take for a Catalan independence movement to be deemed legitimate by Madrid.
Does it really matter if there is no clear majority declaring it legitimate in Catalonia itself? The separatists are trying to play political games here and try to trick people they failed to convince by trying to provoke Madrid to doing something oppressive. It is dishonest and bad for the people of Catalonia, but the Separatists clearly do not care about them since not having a firm popular mandate does not seem to bother them. They are going to provoke a crisis and then bully their opponents by calling them traitors.
An independence movement needs more than 50.000001% of the people lukewarm enough to vote for a party that is for it to some extent. And the separatists did not even get that. They have no legitimacy to make this step, IMO.
Quote from: celedhring on October 26, 2017, 10:10:43 AM
So UDI it is, tomorrow after lunch time civil war starts in Catalonia.
I thought
siesta was after lunch time. So the civil war would be, what, 5ish?
Quote from: Valmy on October 26, 2017, 09:01:37 PM
they had a legitimate grievance against Spain for abusing their rights. They do not. Well ok they do but ones from 40 years ago.
Nations are not simply built on legitimate grievances, if only because one person's legitimate grievance is another person's trifle. There were many in 1776 who thought, not without reason, that the 13 Colonies were complaining unduly. People who oppose independence movements generally tend to cast such movement as baseless, no?
Quote2 they had an overwhelming majority of the local population on their side. They do not. They are facing strong opposition from 40+% of their own population.
Again, either numbers mean something, or they don't. If we are only deeming legitimate movements which can rely on « overwhelming majorities », then very few movement would ever be legitimate, and a case can be made about the legitimacy of ordinary government. And if support is weak (and I believe it is), a referendum would have shown the weakness of that support. Rather, Madrid did not even want to concede a shred of legitimacy from the beginning of the process. It upped the ante considerably.
Oex the alternative is to convince the rest of the country, so we all vote to change the Constitution. This would also make getting into the EU possible.
Of course that is pretty hard to do when you sound like a whiny child talking non-stop about how you are being repressed and robbed by the ones whose support you need.
I'm going to spend the whole weekend curled in fetal position while my world goes up in flames, in case you don't see me posting much.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:43:30 AM
Oex the alternative is to convince the rest of the country, so we all vote to change the Constitution. This would also make getting into the EU possible.
Of course that is pretty hard to do when you sound like a whiny child talking non-stop about how you are being repressed and robbed by the ones whose support you need.
And you call non-separatist Catalans "fascists" or "botiflers" (the Catalan equivalent of "Quisling") non-stop. Or just plain deny they even exist, calling yourselves "One People" (really, don't they realize how scary that sounds?)
Historical tidbit: a "botifler" was a Catalan that supported the Napoleonic side in the Peninsular War.
Regarding whether separatism is legitimate or ilegitimate. To me, all discussion on how we should organize our states is valid, but if you want to flout the law you have to make a damn good case for it. 48% of the voting public isn't a mandate for flouting the law - heck it isn't enough to reform the Catalan Statute which demands a supermajority. We are in a democratic society, so the expression of separatist ideas isn't banned or impeded in any way. So if you haven't convinced enough people, then your case is probably not as good as you think.
Regarding the idea of Catalan secession in abstract, and removing all emotional context from it (I actually give two fucks about the "Spanish Nation" too). To me, the mission of the state is to give the framework where its citizens can prosper and live good lives. We won't agree on the better means to achieve that goal - and that's why we have political parties - but secession won't be conducive to better lives for Catalans, in fact it will impoverish us and sow conflict. Out of the EU, our largest companies leaving the region, etc... it's a pointless endeavour. It's Brexit but to the nth degree and without being an actual economic powerhouse like UK.
The separatists have formally registered the UDI in Parliament. It will be voted on in a few hours.
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 02:49:11 AM
Historical tidbit: a "botifler" was a Catalan that supported the Napoleonic side in the Peninsular War.
I would hate to think what their opinion is about those who supported the Bourbons in the Spanish Succession War, the first Peninsular War. :P
There has to be a significant number, it's not like Catalans were fighting at Almansa.
So.... A...... Friend..... Has been told they might have to spend a significant amount of time in Barcelona in the new year for work.
This increasingly seems to be not quite the good news it seemed.
Possibility of them having to demand danger pay in the way people sent to the middle east and the like do?
Sad to see sanity is not prevailing. They should all be working towards having a proper official referendum
This... friend... should ask himself, What would George Orwell do?
The friend probably would rather not be shot in the throat.
I think there will be a short period of intense protesters vs. riot police action, the police will clean the streets, mostly by sliding women and elderly on their faces back to their homes.
Then of course will be months if not years of increased police presence, lots of political angst, and local economic recession, but otherwise there won't be a a Northern Ireland/Gaza Strip situation.
Quote from: Tamas on October 27, 2017, 07:21:59 AM
I think there will be a short period of intense protesters vs. riot police action, the police will clean the streets, mostly by sliding women and elderly on their faces back to their homes.
Then of course will be months if not years of increased police presence, lots of political angst, and local economic recession, but otherwise there won't be a a Northern Ireland/Gaza Strip situation.
That's my prediction. Most violence should happen in the next few days/weeks. Tyr's friend should have nothing to fear.
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 02:45:39 AM
I'm going to spend the whole weekend curled in fetal position while my world goes up in flames, in case you don't see me posting much.
Any chance of living solvently in the Balearic Islands, by chance?
Do it, Trudeau, do it. Recognize it!
So what will the central government do? Send the black helicopters to arrest the rebels?
Intervention has just been approved, although it won't come into effect until tomorrow. We'll see how difficult it is for Madrid to take over the administration. In the long run Madrid wins - it holds all the cards in a long fight - but I really hope it's a short one.
All the same, we'll all lose. It's so pointless.
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 26, 2017, 09:33:38 PMNations are not simply built on legitimate grievances, if only because one person's legitimate grievance is another person's trifle. There were many in 1776 who thought, not without reason, that the 13 Colonies were complaining unduly. People who oppose independence movements generally tend to cast such movement as baseless, no?
The revolution of 1776 would have failed if it was a peaceful political movement, it only succeeded because it was a military one, and we won the war. It didn't have close to enough votes to win in an actual democratic process.
QuoteAgain, either numbers mean something, or they don't. If we are only deeming legitimate movements which can rely on « overwhelming majorities », then very few movement would ever be legitimate, and a case can be made about the legitimacy of ordinary government. And if support is weak (and I believe it is), a referendum would have shown the weakness of that support. Rather, Madrid did not even want to concede a shred of legitimacy from the beginning of the process. It upped the ante considerably.
I'm super-against any secession movement, but I think if you seek to secede from a country in a peaceful way, it is very important to have an unambiguously strong amount of support. The Catalan movement doesn't even unambiguously have 50% of the voters of Catalonia, lot along some stronger amount, which to my mind would be necessary for a legitimate and proper peaceful democratic process.
Now sure, if they start fighting a war over it 40% of the populace who are really passionate and willing to die over it, with a much smaller number willing to fight against it, and a broad center who wants to stay out of it, then the passionate 40% might win a bloody campaign of rioting and etc against the central government.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 27, 2017, 09:39:36 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 26, 2017, 09:33:38 PMNations are not simply built on legitimate grievances, if only because one person's legitimate grievance is another person's trifle. There were many in 1776 who thought, not without reason, that the 13 Colonies were complaining unduly. People who oppose independence movements generally tend to cast such movement as baseless, no?
The revolution of 1776 would have failed if it was a peaceful political movement, it only succeeded because it was a military one, and we won the war. It didn't have close to enough votes to win in an actual democratic process.
More to the point is that there was no democratic process in place to find out, nor would Britain have tolerated the result anyway, at that time.
That is why the comparison to the American war for independence is a apples and oranges comparison.
Why not compare it to something more relevant? Maybe India's efforts for independence (not that those were not without bloodshed as well) or Canada's practical break from being ruled from London?
Quote
QuoteAgain, either numbers mean something, or they don't. If we are only deeming legitimate movements which can rely on « overwhelming majorities », then very few movement would ever be legitimate, and a case can be made about the legitimacy of ordinary government. And if support is weak (and I believe it is), a referendum would have shown the weakness of that support. Rather, Madrid did not even want to concede a shred of legitimacy from the beginning of the process. It upped the ante considerably.
I'm super-against any secession movement, but I think if you seek to secede from a country in a peaceful way, it is very important to have an unambiguously strong amount of support. The Catalan movement doesn't even unambiguously have 50% of the voters of Catalonia, lot along some stronger amount, which to my mind would be necessary for a legitimate and proper peaceful democratic process.
Now sure, if they start fighting a war over it 40% of the populace who are really passionate and willing to die over it, with a much smaller number willing to fight against it, and a broad center who wants to stay out of it, then the passionate 40% might win a bloody campaign of rioting and etc against the central government.
Yeah, that is pretty much how I feel.
Spain is a democratic nation with a established rule of law and reasonable assurances of representation, at least as far as I can tell.
There is zero justification for any kind of violent need to express a political viewpoint that has basically failed to be realized through the essentially democratic political systems already in place.
The separatist failed when trying to use the system in place to achieve their goals, so now they are trying to use violence instead. That is only justified when you can show that the non-violent process was not actually democratic to begin with.
The US State Department - through Heather Nauert (:wub:) - backs Spain's territorial integrity and supports efforts to guarantee it.
God, never thought it could feel good to have the backing of the Trump administration.
These fucking racist assholes.
So when do the Serbs start building the rape camps?
How are the other Spanish speaking countries siding?
Quote from: HVC on October 27, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
How are the other Spanish speaking countries siding?
Most said they wouldn't back a Catalan UDI, but that was ex ante. We'll see in the coming hours I guess. Spain maintains good relations with most of them and has strong economic links with many Latin American nations, I would be really surprised if anyone recognized the Republic, besides Venezuela.
When did the separatists use violence?
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
Lolwut? How do you get there from what he wrote?
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 10:52:41 AM
When did the separatists use violence?
I may not get the whole picture, but wasn't it the Spanish government who used violence?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
The US was on fairly dubious ground in using force to keep the South within the union. There was no referendum, but it seems there was little doubt that there was substantial support for succession.
The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.
The Confederacy was the first to use force. :sleep:
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 10:52:41 AM
When did the separatists use violence?
They sieged police forces during a judicial raid for hours. Destroyed 3 vehicles and stole the weapons inside (assault rifles). This incident is why 2 of the leaders are in jail now (only ones so far).
There were minor encounters with police forces during the referendum and as a result a handful stand accused of assaulting a police officer.
Finally they coerced businesses and workers during the strike, and forcefully blocked roads.
The war was declared because of Fort Sumter. Not sure what is dubious about that.
It's located in South Carolina.
Not evacuating Fort Sumter was an act of military aggression by the North. Or something.
So, absent Fort Sumter, Lincoln was just going to let the south walk?
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 01:24:03 PM
So, absent Fort Sumter, Lincoln was just going to let the south walk?
No, but the Union needed time to get its shit together and muster/train regiments.
Leave it to a bunch of Americans to turn talk of secession into talk of the American Civil War :P
Among the pack of measures just announced by the Spanish president is an unexpected dissolution of the Catalan Parliament and elections on December 21th - the earliest legal time possible. This limits the intervention to less than 2 months. I'm not sure they'll be able to stabilize the situation in time for a "normal" election.
But this limits the timeframe of the intervention significantly. I like it.
The only explanation I can come up with is they hope moderate nationalists are coming to their senses and want to limit the economic damage.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:35:12 PM
The only explanation I can come up with is they hope moderate nationalists are coming to their senses and want to limit the economic damage.
There's a bunch of moderates willing to vote for an "okay, let's not get carried away" nationalist party, but there's no viable party with this profile right now. All historic nationalist parties have embraced separatism.
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 01:31:03 PM
Leave it to a bunch of Americans to turn talk of secession into talk of the American Civil War :P
Well in some sense you can call BB an American (norteamericano) but not really accurate for this discussion. :P
So what happens next? Will Spain be able to hold elections? Will the nationalist parties participate in elections?
Why wouldn't they?
Spain has only outlawed one party in its recent history, because it was the political wing of ETA. There are so far no deaths in this sad affaire.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:41:59 PM
Why wouldn't they?
Spain has only outlawed one party in its recent history, because it was the political wing of ETA. There are so far no deaths in this sad affaire.
Well following the separatist line of thinking...
They're independent. What Madrid says is now immaterial. The existing Catalan government can announce that they are still the Catalan government, and they will hold elections on their own timetable.
The existing Catalan government will be in jail by then.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:41:59 PM
Why wouldn't they?
Spain has only outlawed one party in its recent history, because it was the political wing of ETA. There are so far no deaths in this sad affaire.
According to Spanish law, parties have 20 days from now to register their candidacies. So the separatists have little time to decide. I think they'll boycott them because it would be a tacit admission that the UDI is worth nothing. If they boycott them we'll enter the "parallel governments" scenario, which is a really shitty one. It's a risky gamble, although in the end Madrid always wins - the loyalist Generalitat would be the only one with the capabilities to exert actual power.
At the end of the day, though, I agree on the principle of the thing: "we are only here to purge the rebels and bring the Generalitat back to lawful government. Once we're done, it goes back to the Catalans".
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:48:06 PM
The existing Catalan government will be in jail by then.
My understanding is that Madrid has been trying very hard not to go down that route (for good reason).
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 27, 2017, 09:39:36 AMThe revolution of 1776 would have failed if it was a peaceful political movement, it only succeeded because it was a military one, and we won the war. It didn't have close to enough votes to win in an actual democratic process.
I think if you seek to secede from a country in a peaceful way, it is very important to have an unambiguously strong amount of support. The Catalan movement doesn't even unambiguously have 50% of the voters of Catalonia, lot along some stronger amount, which to my mind would be necessary for a legitimate and proper peaceful democratic process.
I agree with all of this. What I disagree with is that the separatist movement of Catalunya is somehow illegitimate because it can't spontaneously generate an elusive "overwhelming majority" (hence the allusion to American Independence).
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 12:21:37 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
The US was on fairly dubious ground in using force to keep the South within the union. There was no referendum, but it seems there was little doubt that there was substantial support for succession.
Oh?
What percentage of Southerners do you think supported secession?
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:48:06 PM
The existing Catalan government will be in jail by then.
My understanding is that Madrid has been trying very hard not to go down that route (for good reason).
They have been very careful, but it's really hard to look to the other side when there's open rebellion.
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 27, 2017, 09:39:36 AMThe revolution of 1776 would have failed if it was a peaceful political movement, it only succeeded because it was a military one, and we won the war. It didn't have close to enough votes to win in an actual democratic process.
I think if you seek to secede from a country in a peaceful way, it is very important to have an unambiguously strong amount of support. The Catalan movement doesn't even unambiguously have 50% of the voters of Catalonia, lot along some stronger amount, which to my mind would be necessary for a legitimate and proper peaceful democratic process.
I agree with all of this. What I disagree with is that the separatist movement of Catalunya is somehow illegitimate because it can't spontaneously generate an elusive "overwhelming majority" (hence the allusion to American Independence).
What a bizarre notion - that actual support from the people involved apparently isn't important when deciding the legitimacy of killing people to secure a political change you cannot achieve via democratic means.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
It's an interesting topic, but I don't want it to hijack this thread with another american-centric discussion.
Obviously, as this thread reveals, people read independence movements from the sort of precedents they have appropriated - American Civil War, Quebec independence, Brexit/Scotland.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:48:06 PM
The existing Catalan government will be in jail by then.
My understanding is that Madrid has been trying very hard not to go down that route (for good reason).
Yes, and even now they are minimizing prosecutions. On Monday prominent members of both Govern and the Parlament will be indicted for rebellion (which carries up to 30 years). Individual MPs will be left alone for now, apparently.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 01:57:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 12:21:37 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
The US was on fairly dubious ground in using force to keep the South within the union. There was no referendum, but it seems there was little doubt that there was substantial support for succession.
Oh?
What percentage of Southerners do you think supported secession?
I don't know, but it does appear a majority, if not a significant majority, did. There were some areas that of course did not (West Virginia, parts of eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama), but the majority of the south went happily along.
Majority of the white population of course.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 01:45:22 PM
They're independent. What Madrid says is now immaterial. The existing Catalan government can announce that they are still the Catalan government, and they will hold elections on their own timetable.
They are not. No sovereign country is currently recognizing them, so they hold no sovereignty in international law. In fact, both US and Canada today said they recognized Spain as remaining united. Independence is now immaterial, unless they kick Spain out and control their territory, that is.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:03:01 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 01:57:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 12:21:37 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
The US was on fairly dubious ground in using force to keep the South within the union. There was no referendum, but it seems there was little doubt that there was substantial support for succession.
Oh?
What percentage of Southerners do you think supported secession?
I don't know, but it does appear a majority, if not a significant majority, did. There were some areas that of course did not (West Virginia, parts of eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama), but the majority of the south went happily along.
Majority of the white population of course.
Interesting.
Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?
The Catalan Government has been inside the Generalitat "executing" the mandate of independence. I guess they will come out soon with a flurry of measures, including non-acceptance of the intervention. Whatever else they mandate (i.e. seizing of infrastructures) will dictate how much shit hits the fan.
Obvious it had to happen but... :lol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Republic_(2017)
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 02:06:21 PM
The Catalan Government has been inside the Generalitat "executing" the mandate of independence. I guess they will come out soon with a flurry of measures, including non-acceptance of the intervention. Whatever else they mandate (i.e. seizing of infrastructures) will dictate how much shit hits the fan.
This is all so crazy. :(
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:55:50 PM
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
I really don't think it's that easy.
I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya. They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea). If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 02:06:21 PM
The Catalan Government has been inside the Generalitat "executing" the mandate of independence. I guess they will come out soon with a flurry of measures, including non-acceptance of the intervention. Whatever else they mandate (i.e. seizing of infrastructures) will dictate how much shit hits the fan.
The problem is, of course, that Rajoy sent the elite units of the gendarmerie to critical spots (eg Barcelona's airport). If they try to take it there will be blood.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:04:20 PM
Interesting.
Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?
Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?
Quote from: Barrister
The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:55:50 PM
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
I really don't think it's that easy.
I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya. They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea). If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.
It's not all or nothing. Each item has to be approved and released.
If the regional police, for example, decide not to obey orders, you can cut them off completely, while still paying for doctors and medicines.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:55:50 PM
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
I really don't think it's that easy.
I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya. They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea). If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.
The point is that Madrid is the government with the money to keep all those things running. Not the separatists.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 01:59:30 PM
What a bizarre notion - that actual support from the people involved apparently isn't important when deciding the legitimacy of killing people to secure a political change you cannot achieve via democratic means.
It's not a bizarre notion at all. Rather, it's one well supported by historical precedents. Legitimacy is a political process, and has historically drawn its strength on much more than a numerical assessment of support from opinion polls or, for that matter, the letter of constitutional order. All sorts of revolutions have established themselves with limited groups of people claiming to speak on behalf of "the Nation" or "The State". Some now enjoy little legitimacy in the eyes of liberal democracies (Cuban, for instance), and some which now enjoy tremendous legitimacy (American, French). Support, in that sense, is thus terribly vague. Not entirely "merely" rhetorical, but not entirely spontaneously "popular" either.
The question which seems to divide people on the forum (and more largely whenever the topic is brought up) is whether current independence movements within liberal democracies can ever be justified. Some seem to answer "no", on the basis that oppression is the only possible legitimate cause; others seem to answer "yes", on the basis that there are such things as national identity which cannot be subsumed under the exercise of democratic rights.
In any case, CSA secession is irrelevant to this present case. They broke out because they didn't want a Northern President who was an Abolitionist.
As soon as Lincoln was elected, they started to secede, as their congresspeople had promised time and time again during the campaign. Despite this, the South massively voted for Breckinridge against Lincoln. If not a direct referendum on secession, that was pretty much a mandate for disunion which became a foregone conclusion as soon as the first State ratified secession.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:55:50 PM
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
I really don't think it's that easy.
I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya. They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea). If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.
It's not all or nothing. Each item has to be approved and released.
If the regional police, for example, decide not to obey orders, you can cut them off completely, while still paying for doctors and medicines.
That... doesn't sound right to me.
I mean in Canada taxes are collected by the Federal government through Revenue Canada, even if they are provincial taxes. The Government of Canada then transfers the money to the Government of Alberta, and it is the GOA that pays my salary.
If Alberta declared a UDI tomorrow, Canada would have no means to pay my salary. I'm sure they could come up with something over time, but not in the short term.
If Madrid is still writing all of the cheques for Catalan public servants that doesn't sound very much like autonomy.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:14:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:55:50 PM
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
I really don't think it's that easy.
I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya. They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea). If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.
The point is that Madrid is the government with the money to keep all those things running. Not the separatists.
I understand that.
But if Madrid shuts off the money to Catalunya and essential government services start to close, do you think people will blame the separatists, or Madrid?
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:17:20 PM
That... doesn't sound right to me.
I mean in Canada taxes are collected by the Federal government through Revenue Canada, even if they are provincial taxes. The Government of Canada then transfers the money to the Government of Alberta, and it is the GOA that pays my salary.
If Alberta declared a UDI tomorrow, Canada would have no means to pay my salary. I'm sure they could come up with something over time, but not in the short term.
If Madrid is still writing all of the cheques for Catalan public servants that doesn't sound very much like autonomy.
Re-read the thread. That's how it worked here until this mess started. Last month the Generalitat decided it was not going to report on their expenses to the central government, and as a result the Government intervened their finances. After triggering art 155 I assume control will be even tighter.
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. :bowler:
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:18:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:14:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 01:55:50 PM
Let's be real for a second here. A government without money is no government at all. There is no "parallel government" scenario unless there's actual blood on the streets.
I really don't think it's that easy.
I don't think Madrid can suddenly stop sending money to Catalunya. They would hardly want schools, hospitals, and police to suddenly close up(I don't know the details of exactly what powers have been devolved to the regional government, but you get the idea). If they did, you run the major risk that support for independence will go up, not down.
The point is that Madrid is the government with the money to keep all those things running. Not the separatists.
I understand that.
But if Madrid shuts off the money to Catalunya and essential government services start to close, do you think people will blame the separatists, or Madrid?
I agree. But why would they do that. The federal government now rules in Catalunya until new elections are held - which is the point.
The separatists can proclaim a parallel government all they want - but they have no funds.
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:10:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:04:20 PM
Interesting.
Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?
Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?
Quote from: Barrister
The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.
That isn't relevant to your claim that the North had no legitimate grounds to use violence against the south, because the south had popular support.
I don't think there was overwhelming popular support at all (which is the part I am criticizing), unless for some bizarre reason you decide that the opinion of blacks don't count. Can you at least conceded that maybe 3 out 5 could count?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 02:20:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:17:20 PM
That... doesn't sound right to me.
I mean in Canada taxes are collected by the Federal government through Revenue Canada, even if they are provincial taxes. The Government of Canada then transfers the money to the Government of Alberta, and it is the GOA that pays my salary.
If Alberta declared a UDI tomorrow, Canada would have no means to pay my salary. I'm sure they could come up with something over time, but not in the short term.
If Madrid is still writing all of the cheques for Catalan public servants that doesn't sound very much like autonomy.
Re-read the thread. That's how it worked here until this mess started. Last month the Generalitat decided it was not going to report on their expenses to the central government, and as a result the Government intervened their finances. After triggering art 155 I assume control will be even tighter.
Yeah, BB is mixing up the taxing authority Canadian Provinces have with what is happening in Spain.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:10:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:04:20 PM
Interesting.
Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?
Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?
Quote from: Barrister
The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.
That isn't relevant to your claim that the North had no legitimate grounds to use violence against the south, because the south had popular support.
I don't think there was overwhelming popular support at all (which is the part I am criticizing), unless for some bizarre reason you decide that the opinion of blacks don't count. Can you at least conceded that maybe 3 out 5 could count?
Under the system of slavery as it existed at the time, the opinion of slaves did not count. They were property, not people.
The Union would have had every legitimacy in the world if it said "it is monstrous to hold human beings as property. They should be given their full voice, and we're prepared to go to war to see this happen."
But that's not how it started. Lincoln's
casus belli was to "preserve the union", but it seemed pretty clear that the majority of the south the majority of voters supported secession.
Look this isn't meant as some criticism - you guys got there in the end. But viewing what is going on in Spain through the lens of the Civil War is somewhat flawed, because "preserving the union" isn't, by itself, a very good basis to deny independence to a region.
And I'm pretty sure I never used the word "overwhelming". If I did, and that is the word you are objecting to, I cheerfully withdraw it.
Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.
So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?
Yep.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 02:46:52 PM
Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.
Well, that is it then isn't it. No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?
What does King Felipe say about all this? Is he calling up the troops?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 02:46:52 PM
Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.
Well, that is it then isn't it. No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?
I'm sure there's some Russian banks that would be happy to lend... :shifty:
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?
The CBC is reporting that the prosecutorial office in Madrid is preparing to bring a number of charges of treason.
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?
Yes.
Rumor has it that what tipped the balance yesterday was that Puigdemont could not get Rajoy to guarantee that he would have immunity from prosecution.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 02:46:52 PM
Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.
Well, that is it then isn't it. No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?
Blood, broken-bones and bodies in the streets to sanctify the revolution.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?
The CBC is reporting that the prosecutorial office in Madrid is preparing to bring a number of charges of treason.
Rebellion. Treason has to involve a foreign country and is judged by military tribunal, IIRC
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:44:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:10:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:04:20 PM
Interesting.
Is there some reason you are arguing that we should ignore the wishes of the non-white population when it comes to determining the legitimacy of a secession movement on the basis of the opinions of the people who live in the areas in question?
Is there some reason that you are ignoring what I said about slavery?
Quote from: Barrister
The only real moral ground for fighting the south was the argument that slavery was immoral (and that the slaves had no voice in whether or not to secede), but that of course was not the ground that Lincoln originally claimed in the war.
That isn't relevant to your claim that the North had no legitimate grounds to use violence against the south, because the south had popular support.
I don't think there was overwhelming popular support at all (which is the part I am criticizing), unless for some bizarre reason you decide that the opinion of blacks don't count. Can you at least conceded that maybe 3 out 5 could count?
Under the system of slavery as it existed at the time, the opinion of slaves did not count. They were property, not people.
We are talking about the concept of legitimacy, which is not a legal concept at all, essentially by definition. A system where some portion of the people deny basic rights to another portion of the people, and then claim legitimacy on the basis of "democracy" is the very definition of a *illegitimate* democartic system.
Quote
The Union would have had every legitimacy in the world if it said "it is monstrous to hold human beings as property. They should be given their full voice, and we're prepared to go to war to see this happen."
I actually think that is basically what happened. It was not that direct of course, but the South seceeded BECAUSE a large enough portion of the greater population had said essentially that abolition was coming. Allvia the democratic process, and all while that same process denied the rights of people who would have a rather vested interest in the question the right to express their opinion.
Indeed, it was actually worse than that, since the system in place actually made it so that to the extent they WERE counted, they were counted in a manner that gave their 60% voice to the very people who used it to try to keep them enslaved.
And *despite* all that, the writing for slavery was still on the wall. The south seceeded because they could read that writing as well as anyone else.
It was always about slavery, start to finish.
And the North went to war to preserve the very Union that had just basically said "Yeah, slavery is going to end at some point, and certainly will not be allowed to spread further".
Quote
But that's not how it started. Lincoln's casus belli was to "preserve the union", but it seemed pretty clear that the majority of the south the majority of voters supported secession.
...because they wanted to own slaves.
Lincoln's cassus belli was to perserve a Union that had just made it clear that slavery was not going to be tolerated forever. You cannot separate those things.
Quote
Look this isn't meant as some criticism - you guys got there in the end. But viewing what is going on in Spain through the lens of the Civil War is somewhat flawed, because "preserving the union" isn't, by itself, a very good basis to deny independence to a region.
Preserving the union is a damn good reason when the only reason the union needs to be preserved at all is because some people have realized that chattel slavery cannot survive within it.
Quote
And I'm pretty sure I never used the word "overwhelming". If I did, and that is the word you are objecting to, I cheerfully withdraw it.
My point is simply that there was no real "popular support" for secession unless you take the rather bizarre position that black people ought not to be considered in that calculus for what is considered popular support.
I've always thought that was an odd position to take - that if you enslave people, and then ask the non-slaves what they think about that, why would you fucking care what they think?
The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:55:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 27, 2017, 02:46:52 PM
Also, and at the behest of the two biggest Catalonian banks, every major bank in Spain signed an agreement last week vowing not to forward any revenue to a hypothetical Catalonian government.
Well, that is it then isn't it. No internal funding, no external funding - what plan do the separatists have?
Blood, broken-bones and bodies in the streets to sanctify the revolution.
Based on Iormlund's other post - more like a sacrifice to a vain attempt by one man to avoid the consequences of his actions.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2017, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
So....are we talking actual prison terms for the Catalan government here?
The CBC is reporting that the prosecutorial office in Madrid is preparing to bring a number of charges of treason.
Rebellion charges. 30 years in the slammer.
Quote from: derspiess on October 27, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.
www.kkkshop.com
Quote from: derspiess on October 27, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.
Can you ellaborate? Like today or for the past weeks, or...? Is it a large uptick?
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 27, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.
Can you ellaborate? Like today or for the past weeks, or...? Is it a large uptick?
Go get some cash and stock up on the essentials :(
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2017, 02:57:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 02:44:05 PM
The Union would have had every legitimacy in the world if it said "it is monstrous to hold human beings as property. They should be given their full voice, and we're prepared to go to war to see this happen."
I actually think that is basically what happened. It was not that direct of course, but the South seceeded BECAUSE a large enough portion of the greater population had said essentially that abolition was coming. Allvia the democratic process, and all while that same process denied the rights of people who would have a rather vested interest in the question the right to express their opinion.
Indeed, it was actually worse than that, since the system in place actually made it so that to the extent they WERE counted, they were counted in a manner that gave their 60% voice to the very people who used it to try to keep them enslaved.
And *despite* all that, the writing for slavery was still on the wall. The south seceeded because they could read that writing as well as anyone else.
It was always about slavery, start to finish.
And the North went to war to preserve the very Union that had just basically said "Yeah, slavery is going to end at some point, and certainly will not be allowed to spread further".
Quote from: Abraham Lincoln
If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union
Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry. Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.
But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.
Can we have a new thread for the ACW stuff please?
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2017, 03:19:44 PM
Can we have a new thread for the ACW stuff please?
This is Languish.
ACW hijacks are what we do.
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. :bowler:
I'm afraid France will only use it as a bargaining chip for the Brexit negotiations. :frog:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 27, 2017, 03:25:55 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. :bowler:
I'm afraid France will only use it as a bargaining chip for the Brexit negotiations. :frog:
Fuck France.
The Catalan Government has finished a 5-hour meeting without no decree being publicly issued, nor replying to Spain's approval of the intervention. Strange.
It's for the best, I guess.
The separatists didn't seem to have planned very well for this.
There are calls for boycotting the elections from CUP (extreme left separatists). Separatists have 20 days to decide whether they participate in elections of a state they don't recognize anymore, or risk losing all major power centers to unionists (mass media, education, police). And we will see for sure incidents like the ones on Oct 1, but now in reverse, as separatists try to close down voting centers.
It's a complete reverse of the referendum situation. It seems the central government had planned this very carefully, while the separatists are adrift.
HVC, master of litotes. :)
Glad I was able to help. :)
You'll probably have to look it up again next time you hear it 20 years from now.
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 01:57:28 PM
I agree with all of this. What I disagree with is that the separatist movement of Catalunya is somehow illegitimate because it can't spontaneously generate an elusive "overwhelming majority" (hence the allusion to American Independence).
No separatist, racist, or neo-Nazi movement is ever illegitimate, because popular support is irrelevant to legitimacy. Groups gain legitimacy by declaring themselves legitimate.
The head of Catalonian police accepts his dismissal by Rajoy and steps down.
The Director of the Catalan regional police - dismissed by Madrid's government after the intervention - has issued a letter where he accepts his firing. This is hugely good news.
EDIT: Iormlund'd
Canada officially refuses to recognize the Catalan Republic.
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 05:17:55 PM
Canada officially refuses to recognize the Catalan Republic.
Well, time to pack it in now.
Funnily Spanish Congress passed CETA right after passing the intervention of Catalonia :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on October 27, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
No separatist, racist, or neo-Nazi movement is ever illegitimate, because popular support is irrelevant to legitimacy. Groups gain legitimacy by declaring themselves legitimate.
Legitimacy is too rich a concept to be reduced to such unproductive caricatures.
Quote from: garbon on October 27, 2017, 03:38:25 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 27, 2017, 03:25:55 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. :bowler:
I'm afraid France will only use it as a bargaining chip for the Brexit negotiations. :frog:
Fuck France.
:wub: :hug:
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 05:17:55 PM
Canada officially refuses to recognize the Catalan Republic.
The official statement was something like "Um. We are. Um. Awfully sorry. Um. Spain is a real good friend and um. We are really sorry we really don't mean to do this. But um. Under current circumstances. Um. So so sorry. Please don't hate us. We love you we do. Please don't hate us. But um. Yeah. No. We can't. Say you're um. Independent so. Um. Very sorry. We are terrible we know"?
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 05:38:22 PM
Legitimacy is too rich a concept to be reduced to such unproductive caricatures.
Legitimacy is too important a concept to be reduced to such vague platitudes.
Quote
DPRK News Service
@DPRK_News
·
10h
SPANISH CONQUISTADORS WARNED: Catalonia is free democratic socialist republic.
MARSHAL KIM JONG-UN'S WORDS ARE BACKED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
For Catalonia to be legitimate, wouldn't Spain and France need to get hitched?
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 27, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.
Can you ellaborate? Like today or for the past weeks, or...? Is it a large uptick?
Sorry, not a huge uptick but statistically enough to make note of, and only for the American card issuers (financial institutions) we work with.
edit: uptick started Friday morning. Memo came out late afternoon but I'm seeing the increase starting mid--morning local time.
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. :bowler:
Raise the dragon standard at the Vale of the White Horse and seize any Danes you encounter :bowler:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 27, 2017, 04:28:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 27, 2017, 03:38:25 PM
Fuck France.
You really have gone native.
I can read in the papers about all that pollution they send over the channel to poison residents of London!
Quote from: derspiess on October 27, 2017, 11:56:49 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 27, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 27, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
The company I consult with is noticing an uptick in debit/credit card declines in Catalonia.
Can you ellaborate? Like today or for the past weeks, or...? Is it a large uptick?
Sorry, not a huge uptick but statistically enough to make note of, and only for the American card issuers (financial institutions) we work with.
edit: uptick started Friday morning. Memo came out late afternoon but I'm seeing the increase starting mid--morning local time.
Thanks! interesting. I don't think there's many people - besides tourists - using American issued cards over here though.
All very calm today. No demos, no riots. Deafening silence from the separatist government. They didn't even come out last night to salute the crowds celebrating independence in front of the regional government. The Spanish flag still flies on the building.
This is weird. I hope it's not the calm before the storm.
Catalan President giving a speech in one hour. Leaks claim that he'll reject his dismissal, possibly call for a "Constituent" election so the mess will go on. It was too good to be true.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 28, 2017, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed. :bowler:
Raise the dragon standard at the Vale of the White Horse and seize any Danes you encounter :bowler:
:hmm:
Food for thought, maybe a new venture. :D
Catalan President refuses his dismissal in a recorded message from an unknown location in Girona. He's going full Bin Laden now.
Calls for "peaceful and democratic opposition" to Article 155. This hopefully means no rioting while Madrid takes over. Which is good. Possibly means separatists will call to boycott the December election, which is not good.
Honestly, the feeling I get is that they really don't know what to do right now, since his message was really vague and didn't contain a single actionable item.
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?
It's an interesting topic, but I don't want it to hijack this thread with another american-centric discussion.
Obviously, as this thread reveals, people read independence movements from the sort of precedents they have appropriated - American Civil War, Quebec independence, Brexit/Scotland.
All precedents have some relevance. Before committing to a position, it makes some sense to consider the broader implications of that position, for precedents both past and present.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2017, 09:33:32 AM
All precedents have some relevance. Before committing to a position, it makes some sense to consider the broader implications of that position, for precedents both past and present.
Feel free to begin a different thread if you think I haven't. :)
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 03:14:34 PM
Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry. Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.
But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.
My God. That quote has a context. Don't fall for this neo-Confederate trick of taking quotes and events out of context to advance their version of events. I don't how you can be so profoundly ignorant of Lincoln and the Civil War after we have talked about it so much to the point it is a meme but if you want to discuss it further we can start another thread.
In any case this case well illustrates a rare example where a secessionist movement does have a strong mandate ( in some, not all, of the states anyway) but profoundly fails the first test so in my eyes was not legitimate.
I'm sure it is for the best but I'm finding this anti-climax quite unsatisfying. Boring, even. :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on October 28, 2017, 01:05:57 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 03:14:34 PM
Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry. Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.
But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.
My God. That quote has a context. Don't fall for this neo-Confederate trick of taking quotes and events out of context to advance their version of events. I don't how you can be so profoundly ignorant of Lincoln and the Civil War after we have talked about it so much to the point it is a meme but if you want to discuss it further we can start another thread.
In any case this case well illustrates a rare example where a secessionist movement does have a strong mandate ( in some, not all, of the states anyway) but profoundly fails the first test so in my eyes was not legitimate.
Yes. What Lincoln was saying was that his war goals were to end the succession and preserve the Union, and that the issue of slavery was not necessarily particularly relevant to those goals. As for as his political goals, though, as opposed to his war goals, he was still an Abolitionist.
Quote from: dps on October 28, 2017, 02:14:53 PM
Yes. What Lincoln was saying was that his war goals were to end the succession...
Can you provide proof that Lincoln was a secret Stuart supporter and wanted to kill Edward VII?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 28, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
I'm sure it is for the best but I'm finding this anti-climax quite unsatisfying. Boring, even. :hmm:
It's far, far too quiet. They must be up to something surely? They declared independence and then... did nothing.
Quite funny to see on BBC news, the reporter standing in one of Barcelona's main squares.....where it looks like any other day.
Right now it feels like the separatists just wanted to say they are an independent country, get all drunk celebrating and then go home, without actually caring about the things independent countries are supposed to do in order to actually be independent countries. Had I known I'd have let them do the UDI back in 2014.
I guess it won't be so easy though.
It's Daylight Saving Time night, with one hour more to sleep and/or to party so they are having fun I guess before the real business starts on Monday. :P
Madrid hasn't even bothered arresting anyone either. No revolution on the weekend I guess.
Quote from: celedhring on October 28, 2017, 04:22:13 PM
Right now it feels like the separatists just wanted to say they are an independent country, get all drunk celebrating and then go home, without actually caring about the things independent countries are supposed to do in order to actually be independent countries. Had I known I'd have let them do the UDI back in 2014.
I guess it won't be so easy though.
Typical of first-world secessionist movements - thinking that all is in pink-glasses. All they need to do is to declare independence and they can go home, because naturally the other side will just bow down, give them everything they ask, and everyone will recognize them. Because... reasons.
Quote from: celedhring on October 28, 2017, 07:43:33 AM
Catalan President refuses his dismissal in a recorded message from an unknown location in Girona. He's going full Bin Laden now.
You mean ex-President. Traitor has been fired, I heard :contract:
Quote from: celedhring on October 28, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Madrid hasn't even bothered arresting anyone either. No revolution on the weekend I guess.
Really doing wonders for the "manana" stereotype. :lol:
Rajoy has reverted to his natural state of giving his enemies rope, while he enjoys a cigar and a drink.
Huge Unionist rally in Barcelona this morning.
And very good speeches by Borrel (socialist) and Frutos (communist).
I hate to say this, but this country really needs someone young who can speak in complete sentences. As cute as Arrimada is, she's nowhere near close to Borrell (surely the most qualified president this country never had).
Yeah, both speeches were very good, both by men over 70. The downfall in the quality of politicians in this country has been pretty steep.
Arrimadas is actually a good politician (she's done a great job of moving Cs towards the political center in Catalonia) but a so-so speaker.
Quote from: Tyr on October 29, 2017, 03:45:50 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 28, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Madrid hasn't even bothered arresting anyone either. No revolution on the weekend I guess.
Really doing wonders for the "manana" stereotype. :lol:
I bet if there were some fucking animals to set on fire or throw out of buildings, their greasy asses would would already be in the counter-revolution purge phase.
Tomorrow the men from Madrid will start taking over the Catalan administration. Given the fact that the takeover of the Catalan police has so far gone seamlessly, it seems that there won't be much resistance. A week ago we were looking at a "masses of protesters surrounding Catalan government buildings" scenario, but this threat seems to have evaporated. We'll see how it goes.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 29, 2017, 12:51:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 29, 2017, 03:45:50 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 28, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Madrid hasn't even bothered arresting anyone either. No revolution on the weekend I guess.
Really doing wonders for the "manana" stereotype. :lol:
I bet if there were some fucking animals to set on fire or throw out of buildings, their greasy asses would would already be in the counter-revolution purge phase.
As long as there are a bunch of sunburnt Americans paying to watch it, sure.
Quote from: celedhring on October 29, 2017, 05:07:01 PM
Tomorrow the men from Madrid will start taking over the Catalan administration. Given the fact that the takeover of the Catalan police has so far gone seamlessly, it seems that there won't be much resistance. A week ago we were looking at a "masses of protesters surrounding Catalan government buildings" scenario, but this threat seems to have evaporated.
Hopeful signs, but don't rule out the depths of stupidity that the hotheads are willing to plunge to.
Quote from: mongers on October 29, 2017, 05:10:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 29, 2017, 05:07:01 PM
Tomorrow the men from Madrid will start taking over the Catalan administration. Given the fact that the takeover of the Catalan police has so far gone seamlessly, it seems that there won't be much resistance. A week ago we were looking at a "masses of protesters surrounding Catalan government buildings" scenario, but this threat seems to have evaporated.
Hopeful signs, but don't rule out the depths of stupidity that the hotheads are willing to plunge to.
I think the word is to keep it peaceful. Not for the good of the people, obviously. It's because the law says violence is required for a conviction when accused of rebellion.
However the precedent is against the coup organizers (no actual violence needed, just threat of), and the law also states that disrupting communications counts as violence (and roads were blocked during the strike).
Quote from: Iormlund on October 29, 2017, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 29, 2017, 05:10:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 29, 2017, 05:07:01 PM
Tomorrow the men from Madrid will start taking over the Catalan administration. Given the fact that the takeover of the Catalan police has so far gone seamlessly, it seems that there won't be much resistance. A week ago we were looking at a "masses of protesters surrounding Catalan government buildings" scenario, but this threat seems to have evaporated.
Hopeful signs, but don't rule out the depths of stupidity that the hotheads are willing to plunge to.
I think the word is to keep it peaceful. Not for the good of the people, obviously. It's because the law says violence is required for a conviction when accused of rebellion.
However the precedent is against the coup organizers (no actual violence needed, just threat of), and the law also states that disrupting communications counts as violence (and roads were blocked during the strike).
Don't think that strike can be counted as an act of rebellion though. It was legally convened.
But yeah, the whole UDI has been so low-profile that it smacks of trying to avoid the full weight of the law. The fact the Catalan government hasn't even attempted to issue a single decree is telling. Using the state apparatus - and its implicit coercive force - to prop up the rebellion counts as violent rebellion too.
Probably jailing the leaders of the separatist NGOs for sedition was a wake up call for separatists. Madrid wasn't going to fool around this time.
Quote from: celedhring on October 29, 2017, 05:08:07 PM
As long as there are a bunch of sunburnt Americans paying to watch it, sure.
Nice try, but you can't pin thousands of greaseball blood feasts a year on the tourists. Dumbass Moops.
Quote from: celedhring on October 29, 2017, 05:37:39 PM
Don't think that strike can be counted as an act of rebellion though. It was legally convened.
But yeah, the whole UDI has been so low-profile that it smacks of trying to avoid the full weight of the law. The fact the Catalan government hasn't even attempted to issue a single decree is telling. Using the state apparatus - and its implicit coercive force - to prop up the rebellion counts as violent rebellion too.
Probably jailing the leaders of the separatist NGOs for sedition was a wake up call for separatists. Madrid wasn't going to fool around this time.
The strike itself was technically illegal. Politics are specifically excluded from the list of reasons to call for one. Plus, I doubt blocking highways is part of any legal strike.
And yeah, I think the biggest factors here were the quick collapse of Catalonia's economic framework and the hearings in the Audiencia. Trapero himself looked thoroughly defeated after the ordeal.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 29, 2017, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 29, 2017, 05:37:39 PM
Don't think that strike can be counted as an act of rebellion though. It was legally convened.
But yeah, the whole UDI has been so low-profile that it smacks of trying to avoid the full weight of the law. The fact the Catalan government hasn't even attempted to issue a single decree is telling. Using the state apparatus - and its implicit coercive force - to prop up the rebellion counts as violent rebellion too.
Probably jailing the leaders of the separatist NGOs for sedition was a wake up call for separatists. Madrid wasn't going to fool around this time.
The strike itself was technically illegal. Politics are specifically excluded from the list of reasons to call for one. Plus, I doubt blocking highways is part of any legal strike.
And yeah, I think the biggest factors here were the quick collapse of Catalonia's economic framework and the hearings in the Audiencia. Trapero himself looked thoroughly defeated after the ordeal.
Road blockings are illegal, but happen in every single strike and the organizers aren't charged with rebellion. Technically the strike was convened to protest for economic reasons - it was a lie of course, it was a political strike, but I can't find the angle where you could consider it an act of rebellion.
Rebellion necessitates that violence happens as a result. Any violence. I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess that if roads are forcefully blocked during an illegal strike that you organized as part of the process, it should definitely count.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 29, 2017, 06:09:22 PM
Rebellion necessitates that violence happens as a result. Any violence. I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess that if roads are forcefully blocked during an illegal strike that you organized as part of the process, it should definitely count.
They got all major trade unions to back the strike. I'm not a lawyer either but I'm not sure how considering that strike part of a rebellion is going to fly in court.
At the end of the day, it was just a protest. No material objective was achieved - unlike, say, celebrating the referendum or approving the provisional Catalan constitution.
Our federal asylum secretary noted this weekend that puigmont can apply for asylum in Belgium. Our prime Minister and Spanish PP weren't amused. So silly how this influences Belgian politics also for some cheap points scoring.
No incidents so far in the take over. Some members of the government went and took their personal belongings and left, saying that they don't consider themselves dismissed but acting very much like they are. The Head of the Catalan Parliament says that only the Catalan President can dissolve it, but then revokes all sessions this week, tacitly admitting its dissolution.
The separatist camp has also stopped talking about boycotting the election, either. They will probably say this is another "plebiscite" to "confirm" the UDI and continue the charade. After some scary days, this is finally turning into farce.
Spain's Prosecutor General presents rebellion charges against the former Catalan government and the Bureau of the Parliament. It leaves the door open to a downgrade to sedition (half the prison time), but that's going to be up to the judge.
Quote from: Archy on October 30, 2017, 01:21:22 AM
Our federal asylum secretary noted this weekend that puigmont can apply for asylum in Belgium. Our prime Minister and Spanish PP weren't amused. So silly how this influences Belgian politics also for some cheap points scoring.
Puigdemont has travelled to Belgium to meet the Flemish nationalists in the Belgian government :lol:
Going for a rebel spam approach?
Meanwhile, the two largest separatist parties confirm they will participate in the December election, to "validate the Republic".
So what happens if the separatists win the election?
Quote from: HVC on October 30, 2017, 08:15:46 AM
So what happens if the separatists win the election?
They get to run the regional government, doing all the things the regional government can do. It's highly unlikely they'll get over 50% of the vote anyway (nationalist parties have never broke that ceiling in past 15 years or so), but they benefit from the current electoral law and the division between the unionist parties.
So they won't take this as a mandate and start the stupid roller coaster all over again?
Quote from: HVC on October 30, 2017, 08:36:18 AM
So they won't take this as a mandate and start the stupid roller coaster all over again?
Recent polling is not good to them. The situation is so fluid and chaotic that things can change, of course, but I don't think a "Let's make another UDI! This time for realsies!" separatist platform has any chance to get 50% of the vote and thus claim that mandate. Their moderates are running for the hills.
We'll see in the next hours/days if the moderates are able to coalesce into a solid platform.
So it looks like that the Catalan ex-president and 5 of his cabinet are indeed trying to get political asylum in Belgium. Hilarious. Can they really avoid extradition to another EU nation? Are the belgians really willing to get embroiled in this mess?
Quote from: celedhring on October 30, 2017, 09:08:40 AM
So it looks like that the Catalan ex-president and 5 of his cabinet are indeed trying to get political asylum in Belgium. Hilarious. Can they really avoid extradition to another EU nation? Are the belgians really willing to get embroiled in this mess?
Apparently Belgian law allows for extradition requests to be contested in regular courts, it is being speculated that that's what they're aiming for.
In any case if I was an independentist voter in Catalonia I would feel so inmensely betrayed by now.
Quote from: The Larch on October 30, 2017, 09:43:04 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 30, 2017, 09:08:40 AM
So it looks like that the Catalan ex-president and 5 of his cabinet are indeed trying to get political asylum in Belgium. Hilarious. Can they really avoid extradition to another EU nation? Are the belgians really willing to get embroiled in this mess?
Apparently Belgian law allows for extradition requests to be contested in regular courts, it is being speculated that that's what they're aiming for.
In any case if I was an independentist voter in Catalonia I would feel so inmensely betrayed by now.
Government in exile! VIVE LA RESISTANCE!
It's so fucking ridiculous. I wish I didn't live here so I could laugh at it all.
If you deeply believe in Catalan independence you dare the authorities to prosecute you. You make your trial a showcase on how oppressive Spain is. Hell maybe you go on a hunger strike while in jail. That's the kind of shit that just might win independence for your country.
Running away to Belgium makes you look like an opportunist.
I wonder what the other guys charged with rebellion that stayed behind are thinking now. Or the two guys already in jail.
For starters Puigdemont has made the case for the prosecution re: preventive imprisonment much easier given the accredited flight risk.
Quote from: The Larch on October 30, 2017, 09:43:04 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 30, 2017, 09:08:40 AM
So it looks like that the Catalan ex-president and 5 of his cabinet are indeed trying to get political asylum in Belgium. Hilarious. Can they really avoid extradition to another EU nation? Are the belgians really willing to get embroiled in this mess?
Apparently Belgian law allows for extradition requests to be contested in regular courts, it is being speculated that that's what they're aiming for.
In any case if I was an independentist voter in Catalonia I would feel so inmensely betrayed by now.
Belgium counts as part of the Frankish kingdom (Tournais was the first capital after all) so it's good with "we're not Hispanian! vibe".
:P
Oh hell no. Merovingian revivalism must be nipped in the bud.
Gotta say I have props for Rajoy, he just outright refused to let them secede, reject their referendum and etc. I wish more Western countries would stand up thusly to separatists.
And the farce comes over here :lol:
I think Spain-Belgium will detoriate a bit.
I think our francophone classical liberal prime Minister is not amused by his coalition partner.
Where's Charles V when you need him.
Quote from: Solmyr on October 30, 2017, 02:18:39 PM
Where's Charles V when you need him.
We still keep these around for parades :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.20m.es%2Fimg2%2Frecortes%2F2017%2F10%2F12%2F559372-944-629.jpg%3Fv%3D20171012143339&hash=be5315f535e245580b1d4812652d576ef55e27d8)
I am in Madrid at the moment and there is a noticeable amount of Spanish flags on balconies etc. I wonder if this is a reaction to the current crisis.
Quote from: Zanza on October 30, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
I am in Madrid at the moment and there is a noticeable amount of Spanish flags on balconies etc. I wonder if this is a reaction to the current crisis.
It is.
As long as Philip doesn't send the Duke of Alva over here I'm happy. ;)
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 30, 2017, 01:34:37 PM
Gotta say I have props for Rajoy, he just outright refused to let them secede, reject their referendum and etc. I wish more Western countries would stand up thusly to separatists.
And do it the tactful way: with prosecutors.
Apparently Puigdemont has retained the services of a lawyer that managed to stop the extradition process of a former ETA terrorist.
Quote from: Archy on October 30, 2017, 03:17:49 PM
As long as Philip doesn't send the Duke of Alva over here I'm happy. ;)
The current one is not really very imposing. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.20m.es%2Fimg2%2Frecortes%2F2014%2F11%2F20%2F198679-944-1415.jpg&hash=77a9924a1768cacec219159e054466a833eaabc4)
Quote from: Iormlund on October 30, 2017, 04:18:09 PM
Apparently Puigdemont has retained the services of a lawyer that managed to stop the extradition process of a former ETA terrorist.
Better at choosing lawyers than at seceding?
Quote from: Archy on October 30, 2017, 03:17:49 PM
As long as Philip doesn't send the Duke of Alva over here I'm happy. ;)
What about the duke of Parma? He
is Charles V :ph34r:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Carlos,_Duke_of_Parma
Puigdemont to give a press conference in Brussels at 12.30. Rumors are all over the place, but I guess the separatist play here is try to create a Government in Exile to keep separatists mobilized until the December election.
Our prime minister issued a prohibitionto talk with Puigdemont to the Flemish seperatists in his government. :D
He's indeed a bit nervous.
Quote from: Maladict on October 30, 2017, 06:42:14 PM
Quote from: Archy on October 30, 2017, 03:17:49 PM
As long as Philip doesn't send the Duke of Alva over here I'm happy. ;)
What about the duke of Parma? He is Charles V :ph34r:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Carlos,_Duke_of_Parma
Not enough Habsburg lip.
The Habsburgs lost their lip at some point. I guess when the fall of Spanish Habsburgs meant they no longer had to keep marrying their first cousins.
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 04:52:19 AM
Puigdemont to give a press conference in Brussels at 12.30. Rumors are all over the place, but I guess the separatist play here is try to create a Government in Exile to keep separatists mobilized until the December election.
Well at least it is from Bussels and not Moscow.
Well he didn't say anything noteworthy. Doesn't believe he'll get a fair trial in Spain, will remain in Brussels until he feels there's guarantees in place. He wants to draw attention of the European Union to Spain's "abuses" and the Catalan conflict. Tiresome.
First polls are giving separatists 43-46% in the upcoming regional vote - which is in line with what they've been getting since 2012, and that's what they'll get in December. We can keep this charade until the end of times, further rubbishing Catalonia's social and economic future, or we can try to get some kind of arrangement, a legal one.
Spanish Supreme Court and the Audiencia Nacional summon the deposed Catalan Government and the Bureau of Parliament to answer the charges of rebellion/sedition this thursday and friday. Those will be two "fun" days...
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 10:58:22 AM
Well he didn't say anything noteworthy. Doesn't believe he'll get a fair trial in Spain, will remain in Brussels until he feels there's guarantees in place. He wants to draw attention of the European Union to Spain's "abuses" and the Catalan conflict. Tiresome.
First polls are giving separatists 43-46% in the upcoming regional vote - which is in line with what they've been getting since 2012, and that's what they'll get in December. We can keep this charade until the end of times, further rubbishing Catalonia's social and economic future, or we can try to get some kind of arrangement, a legal one.
If they want to separate because they're a wealthy region than an economic downfall as more companies leave while temper the separatist feelings. I mean if I still had a multination company in Catalonia I'd be moving out as fast as I can.
Quote from: HVC on October 31, 2017, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 10:58:22 AM
Well he didn't say anything noteworthy. Doesn't believe he'll get a fair trial in Spain, will remain in Brussels until he feels there's guarantees in place. He wants to draw attention of the European Union to Spain's "abuses" and the Catalan conflict. Tiresome.
First polls are giving separatists 43-46% in the upcoming regional vote - which is in line with what they've been getting since 2012, and that's what they'll get in December. We can keep this charade until the end of times, further rubbishing Catalonia's social and economic future, or we can try to get some kind of arrangement, a legal one.
If they want to separate because they're a wealthy region than an economic downfall as more companies leave while temper the separatist feelings. I mean if I still had a multination company in Catalonia I'd be moving out as fast as I can.
Oh, 6 out of the 7 largest companies headquartered in Barcelona have already made the switch. And hundreds of smaller ones.
are they just moving headquarters or are they pulling out production and jobs too?
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 12:46:57 PM
Quote from: HVC on October 31, 2017, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 10:58:22 AM
Well he didn't say anything noteworthy. Doesn't believe he'll get a fair trial in Spain, will remain in Brussels until he feels there's guarantees in place. He wants to draw attention of the European Union to Spain's "abuses" and the Catalan conflict. Tiresome.
First polls are giving separatists 43-46% in the upcoming regional vote - which is in line with what they've been getting since 2012, and that's what they'll get in December. We can keep this charade until the end of times, further rubbishing Catalonia's social and economic future, or we can try to get some kind of arrangement, a legal one.
If they want to separate because they're a wealthy region than an economic downfall as more companies leave while temper the separatist feelings. I mean if I still had a multination company in Catalonia I'd be moving out as fast as I can.
Oh, 6 out of the 7 largest companies headquartered in Barcelona have already made the switch. And hundreds of smaller ones.
Is it likely they'll either be able to switch back or start switching back if the separatism movement collapses in the next weeks?
Quote from: HVC on October 31, 2017, 12:48:05 PM
are they just moving headquarters or are they pulling out production and jobs too?
Just HQs. Moving the actual production isn't something that you do in such short notice, and probably won't happen unless independence becomes a real possiblity. But investment freeze is another matter, and it's happening.
Quote from: Habbaku on October 31, 2017, 12:50:04 PM
Is it likely they'll either be able to switch back or start switching back if the separatism movement collapses in the next weeks?
Some probably will. But others won't. We will emerge of this with noticeable economic damage, no two ways about it. We've become an unreliable destination for investment
You know what I miss? A week where NOTHING happens. This has been a fucking roller coaster for two months already, and it's going to stay that way until January at the very least (unless unionists win a decisive victory in December, but it's going to be another 50/50, like it's been since forever).
Time to invest in Catalonian companies at cut-rate prices, then. :menace:
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 12:57:54 PM
You know what I miss? A week where NOTHING happens. This has been a fucking roller coaster for two months already, and it's going to stay that way until January at the very least (unless unionists win a decisive victory in December, but it's going to be another 50/50, like it's been since forever).
You're a very emotional people, you know.
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 12:46:57 PM
Oh, 6 out of the 7 largest companies headquartered in Barcelona have already made the switch. And hundreds of smaller ones.
Celed, Grifols moved their financial center to Ireland after the first referendum. While they are still technically headquartered in Barcelona, their money is not there anymore.
Tomorrow begin the preliminary hearings for the members of the Catalan government and Parliament that stand accused of rebellion (20 in total). It's more or less confirmed that Puigdemont will remain in Belgium and become a fugitive, others might join him, while a few have confirmed that they will show up at the hearings. A couple of the councilors that fled with Puigdemont to Brussels were seen arriving at Barcelona yesterday, which everybody assumes means they will show up.
Given the flight risk, it s very likely that the judge will concede preventive imprisonment for nearly all of them (looks like the councilor that quit the government before the UDI will be spared). This will heat up things again, considerably, but I really can't see how the judge can refuse a jail order at this point if the prosecution asks for it.
The deposed Catalan cabinet ends up in preventive jail (barring the councilor that quit on the eve of the UDI). The members of the Bureau of the Catalan Parliament had their hearing adjourned and allowed to return home, but under police surveillance.
An European arrest order has been issued shortly for those that didn't show up today.
Things will heat up in the following days. There's already crowds in Barcelona. I wish it could've been avoided - I honestly do - but I just can't see how they could have avoided jail with all the stuff in their platter, particularly after 5 of them fled to Belgium.
I spoke to a Catalan guy about this yesterday.
He says the UDI law was voted on but not actually formally signed off and passed, so technically they should get off the treason conviction, though they still have the vote in their back pocket?
Quote from: celedhring on October 31, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
Quote from: HVC on October 31, 2017, 12:48:05 PM
are they just moving headquarters or are they pulling out production and jobs too?
Just HQs. Moving the actual production isn't something that you do in such short notice, and probably won't happen unless independence becomes a real possiblity. But investment freeze is another matter, and it's happening.
Quote from: Habbaku on October 31, 2017, 12:50:04 PM
Is it likely they'll either be able to switch back or start switching back if the separatism movement collapses in the next weeks?
Some probably will. But others won't. We will emerge of this with noticeable economic damage, no two ways about it. We've become an unreliable destination for investment
It's okay, you will survive. There is always someone else willing to invest money.
Quote from: Tyr on November 02, 2017, 01:52:53 PM
I spoke to a Catalan guy about this yesterday.
He says the UDI law was voted on but not actually formally signed off and passed, so technically they should get off the treason conviction, though they still have the vote in their back pocket?
It's beyond my understanding, but most neutral lawyery types believe that rebellion will end up being downgraded to sedition or conspiracy for rebellion.
I was wrong about the arrest order for the Belgium lot. The judge hasn't ruled on that yet. Tomorrow.
Quote from: celedhring on November 02, 2017, 02:03:15 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 02, 2017, 01:52:53 PM
I spoke to a Catalan guy about this yesterday.
He says the UDI law was voted on but not actually formally signed off and passed, so technically they should get off the treason conviction, though they still have the vote in their back pocket?
It's beyond my understanding, but most neutral lawyery types believe that rebellion will end up being downgraded to sedition or conspiracy for rebellion.
This is why lawyers always end up running revolutions.
Catalonia leads job losses in Spain for the month of October. Oh joy. October is usually a bad month for employment given the end of the tourist season, but it's been worse than in recent years.
Just did some napkin math:
Catalonia's job loss jumped +120% versus the one experienced in October 2016.
Spain job loss jumped +24% vs the one in October 2016. If you take Catalonia out of the picture, it's a mere +8%
Relax. Things will be fine.
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
To the point that it has almost become a meme. :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
& I have no idea why. This is capitalism, there are growth & contraction cycles.
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
If you are that worried, move.
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
Hey. Its not as bad for you as it is for Brits.
Pretty easy for you to go to Madrid or elsewhere should the shit truly hit the fan.
And look. We are still alive. Sort of.
Quote from: Monoriu on November 03, 2017, 09:47:23 AM
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
If you are that worried, move.
But that would hurt him financially :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on November 03, 2017, 09:50:23 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on November 03, 2017, 09:47:23 AM
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
If you are that worried, move.
But that would hurt him financially :hmm:
Political risk affects financial returns.
I work for a Barcelona company, but they have a branch in Madrid - branch that they have been beefing up "just in case". If shit truly hits the fan the plan is to move there. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be leaving all my friends and family because of idiotic politics.
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:56:07 AM
I work for a Barcelona company, but they have a branch in Madrid - branch that they have been beefing up "just in case". If shit truly hits the fan the plan is to move there. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be leaving all my friends and family because of idiotic politics.
Politics is like natural disasters. They just happen, and there is nothing you can do about it. If an earthquake destroys your town, you need to think if you'll stay or move. Politics is the same.
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
I've been hyperventilating for the past 6 weeks.
I know it impacts you so much more than it does the rest of us, but this whole independence thingy has been a big letdown.
Tiananmen it ain't. Very disappointing
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:56:07 AM
I work for a Barcelona company, but they have a branch in Madrid - branch that they have been beefing up "just in case". If shit truly hits the fan the plan is to move there. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be leaving all my friends and family because of idiotic politics.
I'm still here & I grew up in between 2 failed Independence referendum. Montreal shrunk, Toronto grew. There is still economic activity.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 03, 2017, 12:05:33 PM
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:56:07 AM
I work for a Barcelona company, but they have a branch in Madrid - branch that they have been beefing up "just in case". If shit truly hits the fan the plan is to move there. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be leaving all my friends and family because of idiotic politics.
I'm still here & I grew up in between 2 failed Independence referendum. Montreal shrunk, Toronto grew. There is still economic activity.
Yeah. All those companies/rats that left Montreal never returned though. Same thing will happen in Catalogne.
I guesstimate we're collectively poorer by 15%, 20 years later. So it's not the end of the world.
Some things matter more than the mighty fucking dollar.
companies leaving are rats, but provinces leaving are a -ok? Hypocrite :P
I'm a BoM user, proudly headquarter in Toronto :D
Quote from: HVC on November 03, 2017, 01:56:26 PM
companies leaving are rats, but provinces leaving are a -ok? Hypocrite :P
I'm a BoM user, proudly headquarter in Toronto :D
It wouldn't be a province leaving but a Nation breaking free :goodboy:
Learn the difference :P
Weren't you an immigrant from France?
Stop trying to break my country!
Quote from: HVC on November 03, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
Weren't you an immigrant from France?
Stop trying to break my country!
He is not trying to break Al-Gharb Al-Andalus, calm down. :P
My family's not even from Algarve, my dads from Lisbon nd my mom Nazare :P
Is the eggplant really calling out the camembert?
The WASPs must be happy :mad:
Can't fault the rats for leaving the ship if you're the one sinking it.
Quote from: Zoupa on November 03, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Is the eggplant really calling out the camembert?
The WASPs must be happy :mad:
Real question, away from the whole boo French separatists thing, how hard was it for you to understand Quebecers when you first came over? in school in Ontario we learned Parisian French, so my first trip to Quebec was odd. But then again it wasn't like my French was fluent so I always wondered how it must be for a someone from France.
Quote from: HVC on November 03, 2017, 02:32:22 PM
My family's not even from Algarve, my dads from Lisbon nd my mom Nazare :P
Al-Gharb AL-ANDALUS was the name for all moorish domains in Portugal and you know it. :P
Al-Ushbona is even more damning than Algarve, besides. :D
I came over at 11 and my parents put in me in a French system private school. The majority of students were not "native" quebecers. Lots of french expats, vietnamese, lebanese, some latinos. So my exposition to qc accent and culture was gradual. Plus I was a kid, and kids learn this shit fast.
So in resume, I adapted in a jiffy. Good thing too. Compared to some french idiots that come here in their 20s and 30s and think the colonials are inferior at everything, dodged a bullet on being an asshole. Or an even bigger asshole.
Quote from: Zoupa on November 03, 2017, 02:42:27 PM
I came over at 11 and my parents put in me in a French system private school. The majority of students were not "native" quebecers. Lots of french expats, vietnamese, lebanese, some latinos. So my exposition to qc accent and culture was gradual. Plus I was a kid, and kids learn this shit fast.
So in resume, I adapted in a jiffy. Good thing too. Compared to some french idiots that come here in their 20s and 30s and think the colonials are inferior at everything, dodged a bullet on being an asshole. Or an even bigger asshole.
Good thing you save yourself there in the end. :P
My hometown (council is held by separatists) declared the hottie opposition leader "persona non grata". She's went there for a rally today as a response. Pity I'm away. :sleep:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNyQAvrWkAEv7Z2.jpg)
Why would ANYONE declare her "persona non grata"? :wub:
Just finished helping my sister re-route her flights so she will avoid Barcelona next weekend and fly out of Paris instead.
It's not like I own stock in the Barcelona airport or anything, but I don't think you need to get that far. City's safe and after lack of resistance when Madrid took over, it should remain so in the foreseeable future.
Main thing was she had planned to do tourism there on way back from Morocco. Decided that with things up in the air better to avoid and changed her plans at no extra cost.
More of an anecdote on the cost to tourist facing industries in Barcelona over this independence bid.
Quote from: garbon on November 04, 2017, 07:44:16 AM
More of an anecdote on the cost to tourist facing industries in Barcelona over this independence bid.
No doubt about that. A guy I know that works in the restaurant business told me that one of their branches in BCN is down 70% in revenue this month (they'd be down in October in normal circumstances, but not by such a staggering amount).
Friend just flying back to Alaska, she and fiancé spent very enjoyable 4 days to end their trip (Italy, Morocco and Spain.)
I've cancelled all my planned trips to Spain.
Just to uncertain and dangerous. Going to check out Turkey instead.
I supported Spain by buying a stainless-steel bottle/thermos made there (even went out of my way to find one not made in China...cannot find one made in 'Merica anymore).
It's a pretty good thermos/bottle. :)
Quote from: celedhring on November 03, 2017, 09:56:07 AM
I work for a Barcelona company, but they have a branch in Madrid - branch that they have been beefing up "just in case". If shit truly hits the fan the plan is to move there. But that doesn't change the fact that I would be leaving all my friends and family because of idiotic politics.
My gf works here in Barcelona for a well-known multinational. The idea was for me to join her eventually.
I could ask for a transfer to the local plant. I could become part of the "core" teams (you travel a lot but Barcelona is ideal as a base of operations since it has flights everywhere). Or I could look for another employer in an area with lots of automotive manufacturing.
I'm starting to suspect there won't be any automotive manufacturing left in 10 years though ...
The "government in exile" have turned themselves in to the Belgian police, after Spain issued an international arrest order. Apparently the actual extradition process can now take up to 90 days. They are trying to get a Flemish judge to oversee the process, which I guess they see as potentially more favorable to a nationalist cause.
Good grief. Al Gore put up a bigger fight.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 05, 2017, 12:03:10 PM
Good grief. Al Gore put up a bigger fight.
It's a PR thing. Being seen in cuffs, being arrested by the Belgian po-po, might not sit well with the crowd at home that somehow still believe the world is going to force Spain to grant them nationhood.
Catalan ex-president sets up a small rally in Brussels with 200 separatist mayors
1) Spends half the rally railing against the EU for not helping their cause.
2) Ends up asking the EU to help their cause.
Not sure how that's gonna work :hmm:
At least you guys skipped tragedy and went straight to farce.
The EU situation is very strange.
Did they actually expect the EU would interfere in this and magically make their referendum valid?
Are they pro-EU and wanting their support or is this actually some sort of anti-EU move?
Certainly they seem to have found themselves unusual support amongst the far right in the UK for their ranting about the EU.
Quote from: Tyr on November 07, 2017, 05:00:51 PM
The EU situation is very strange.
Did they actually expect the EU would interfere in this and magically make their referendum valid?
Are they pro-EU and wanting their support or is this actually some sort of anti-EU move?
Certainly they seem to have found themselves unusual support amongst the far right in the UK for their ranting about the EU.
I don't know what their endgame was, nobody was ever going to recognize an UDI. That's the kool-aid they sold to their voters, though, who drunk it happily and profusely.
Honestly, I think this has been a July Crisis affair. Both sides expected that the other would blink and back down before reaching a clusterfuck of the proportions we're having. None did. The separatists, however, thought themselves to be Germany or France, but instead they were A-H.
The separatists should ask for a mulligan.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 07, 2017, 06:11:50 PM
The separatists should ask for a mulligan.
That's how they are treating the December election.
They seem to be trying their best to annoy as many voters as possible today. :wacko:
Quote from: Iormlund on November 08, 2017, 05:03:14 AM
They seem to be trying their best to annoy as many voters as possible today. :wacko:
I don't get this either. I still don' t see the 1) Annoy as many Catalans as possible 2) ???????? 3) Independence! train of thought.
Anyway, most stuff around me is open, so the strike itself seems to be a failure, but people are having a hard time getting to their jobs because of all the roads and railways being blocked by the separatists.
The general strike of a month ago was relatively successful, but this one will turn against themselves imho. It has very little backing from the general population.
Can you please take these guys from here now <_<
Belgian govt needed to clarify it's position over the Catalonian question in parliament on request of the opposition.
Official position is, it's an internal Spanish matter and Belgium won't take the side of Spain or the side of Catalonia.
Meanwhile Puigmont thanked his friends form the N-VA (the separatist party in Belgian govt).
Come on, where's your sense of camaraderie? You've only had them for like a week. :P
Quote from: Archy on November 08, 2017, 06:40:45 AM
Can you please take these guys from here now <_<
Belgian govt needed to clarify it's position over the Catalonian question in parliament on request of the opposition.
Official position is, it's an internal Spanish matter and Belgium won't take the side of Spain or the side of Catalonia.
Meanwhile Puigmont thanked his friends form the N-VA (the separatist party in Belgian govt).
Nope, find somebody else. They're the political equivalent of the videotape from "The Ring".
Quote from: Archy on November 08, 2017, 06:40:45 AM
Can you please take these guys from here now <_<
Belgian govt needed to clarify it's position over the Catalonian question in parliament on request of the opposition.
Official position is, it's an internal Spanish matter and Belgium won't take the side of Spain or the side of Catalonia.
Meanwhile Puigmont thanked his friends form the N-VA (the separatist party in Belgian govt).
That is just so Belgium. They try to stay neutral but people keep invading them anyway.
Quote from: Valmy on November 08, 2017, 11:35:00 AM
Quote from: Archy on November 08, 2017, 06:40:45 AM
Can you please take these guys from here now <_<
Belgian govt needed to clarify it's position over the Catalonian question in parliament on request of the opposition.
Official position is, it's an internal Spanish matter and Belgium won't take the side of Spain or the side of Catalonia.
Meanwhile Puigmont thanked his friends form the N-VA (the separatist party in Belgian govt).
That is just so Belgium. They try to stay neutral but people keep invading them anyway.
:lol:
I noticed someone deleted the map that had been showing in the Catalan Republic wikipedia article that showed in red all the countries that had rejected its independence.
I wonder if that was some wiki editor rule or if it happened by someone supporting the separatists as list of countries denouncing has a lot less impact than a world map covered in red. :hmm:
Seems that the members of the Bureau of the Catalan Parliament that are today in front of the Spanish Supreme Court, also facing sedition and rebellion charges, have recanted from the UDI and formally accepted the application of article 155. This should save them from jail for now, but will require some 'splaining in front of their crowd.
Note that in the Spanish justice system, the accused have a "right to lie" of sorts.
Quote from: celedhring on November 09, 2017, 10:12:39 AM
Seems that the members of the Bureau of the Catalan Parliament that are today in front of the Spanish Supreme Court, also facing sedition and rebellion charges, have recanted from the UDI and formally accepted the application of article 155. This should save them from jail for now, but will require some 'splaining in front of their crowd.
Note that in the Spanish justice system, the accused have a "right to lie" of sorts.
Bails for everyone after they kissed the Holy Cross and rejected Satan.
:D
Everyone expected the Spanish Inquisition. :pope:
The next logical step is to finish the "good cop, bad cop" routine by having the Supreme Court take over Lamela's cause against the former Govern members. They recant, and bail is set.
Worst separatist rebellion ever.
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will bow to an administrative act of the central government once the wind blows in their face.
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will bow to an administrative act of the central government once the wind blows in their face.
:lol:
Quote from: Iormlund on November 09, 2017, 04:17:34 PM
The next logical step is to finish the "good cop, bad cop" routine by having the Supreme Court take over Lamela's cause against the former Govern members. They recant, and bail is set.
I had a good laugh today when I saw that half of the imprisoned members of the Catalan Government fired their lawyer as soon as it transpired that their colleagues from Parliament were collaborating with the prosecution.
I think the lawyer that represented the imprisoned Govern gave them terrible advice. Lamela is a tough judge, but they just sat there, pleaded the fifth*, and let the prosecution placidly build up its case for preventive imprisonment.
*Actually the 24th in Spain, but you get the idea.
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will bow to an administrative act of the central government once the wind blows in their face.
Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Beyond Article 155
I will abandon the world you long to see!
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will bow to an administrative act of the central government once the wind blows in their face.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif)
I am quite shocked at the diversity of those who voted for independence.
The Catalan I work with (previously based here, now in Barcelona, comes back often for work stuff) says he went out to vote for independence with his 7 months pregnant wife.
You'd think a guy with such a comfortable settled situation as him would tend towards the conservative on such an issue as this.
Would love to see some proper studies on who supported which side.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 09, 2017, 04:19:20 PM
Worst separatist rebellion ever.
:lol:
Quote from: Tyr on November 10, 2017, 02:17:38 PM
I am quite shocked at the diversity of those who voted for independence.
The Catalan I work with (previously based here, now in Barcelona, comes back often for work stuff) says he went out to vote for independence with his 7 months pregnant wife.
You'd think a guy with such a comfortable settled situation as him would tend towards the conservative on such an issue as this.
Would love to see some proper studies on who supported which side.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 09, 2017, 04:19:20 PM
Worst separatist rebellion ever.
:lol:
It's a wealthy people nationalism. Support is actually higher among those well-off.
(https://ep01.epimg.net/politica/imagenes/2017/09/28/ratio/1506601198_808440_1506601678_noticia_normal.jpg)
Aren't the lower earners more likely to be migrant workers from the south with the higher earners more likely to be locals though?
Quote from: Tyr on November 10, 2017, 02:32:01 PM
Aren't the lower earners more likely to be migrant workers from the south with the higher earners more likely to be locals though?
Yes, but this pattern is also reproduced within those cohorts. Just that locals have a higher baseline of support.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 09, 2017, 04:19:20 PM
Worst separatist rebellion ever.
Were all of those millions on the streets little more than the political equivalent of a flash mob?
This graph can be hard to read if you don't know Spanish, and it comes with many "buts" (survey was way too small to give reliable numbers for so many cohorts), but here it goes.
The further down the graphic, the more dirty Spanish blood in the cohort's veins (I'm in the second tier of purity :menace:). From left to right, household income.
(https://ep01.epimg.net/politica/imagenes/2017/09/28/ratio/1506601198_808440_1506602232_sumario_normal.jpg)
Catalan purebloods are overwhelmingly in favor of independence, but it also increases as income increases, same with the muggles. So support is highest among wealthy Catalan purebloods and weakest among "poor" immigrants or sons of immigrants.
Most of the Catalan population lies in the middle cohorts (both sides of the two "gaps" that cross the graphic).
Que es esta cosa que lama "CCAA" capitan Kirko?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 10, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
Que es esta cosa que lama "CCAA" capitan Kirko?
Comunidades Autónomas - our regions. That cohort is for people born in another Spanish region.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 10, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
Que es esta cosa que lama "CCAA" capitan Kirko?
In Spanish plural in an acronym is noted with 2 letters instead of one. So:
CCAA: Comunidades autónomas.
EEUU: Estados Unidos (de América).
Quote from: Iormlund on November 11, 2017, 04:47:35 AM
In Spanish plural in an acronym is noted with 2 letters instead of one. So:
CCAA: Comunidades autónomas.
EEUU: Estados Unidos (de América).
Ya lo sabia! :smarty:
Separatist NGOs are trying to organize a large protest in Brussels on December 7th.
Belgians will love us by now, surely.
I don't get this appealing to the international community stuff. They don't even have the majority in Catalonia behind them. If they want our support they need to secure that at least.
The US is not going to be taken advantage of anymore. This Catalan carnage ends now.
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2017, 04:44:04 PM
I don't get this appealing to the international community stuff. They don't even have the majority in Catalonia behind them. If they want our support they need to secure that at least.
Been telling them for 5 years now. You're welcome to try.
They see the December election as a chance to finally secure a 50%+1 majority (they won't) and thus have the world force Spain into granting Catalonia independence or whatever. Thing is, they are spending a total fat ZERO time trying to convince the rest of us. It drives me nuts. They spend all the time talking about how "evil, violent and repressive" Spain is, how the world should be helping them, but they aren't even looking at Catalonia itself, at the rest of us.
If international intervention is the preferred mechanism for achieving independence, you really need peaceful protesters being mowed down by evil cops and women being gang-raped by street gangs of berserk Castillians. A couple grannies roughed up at illegal polling places is not going to do the trick.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 11, 2017, 04:47:54 PM
The US is not going to be taken advantage of anymore. This Catalan carnage ends now.
HOTT
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
Quote from: dps on November 11, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
Enough with the France-hate with you people.
*shriek*
MUH PROPERTY
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 11, 2017, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: dps on November 11, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
Enough with the France-hate with you people.
But it is justified!
Perfect opportunity to use "Beware: Valmy" emoji.
Quote from: dps on November 11, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
The solution is to glass every single American state that didn't vote for Obama.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 11, 2017, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: dps on November 11, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
Enough with the France-hate with you people.
Specially since France has nukes too.
Quote from: Jacob on November 12, 2017, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: dps on November 11, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
The solution is to glass every single American state that didn't vote for Obama.
Fuck you, too.
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2017, 06:04:34 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 11, 2017, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: dps on November 11, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
The solution to the Catalonia independence problem is clearly to glass over the entire Iberian peninsula. Probably France as well, just to make sure.
Enough with the France-hate with you people.
But it is justified!
Jealousy is an ugly thing garbon.
I can't think of anything to be jealous about.
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2017, 03:58:55 PM
I can't think of anything to be jealous about.
That's a measure of your limited understanding, not a reflection in France.
Quote from: Jacob on November 12, 2017, 05:17:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2017, 03:58:55 PM
I can't think of anything to be jealous about.
That's a measure of your limited understanding, not a reflection in France.
If it helps you to think that way, I won't interfere.
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2017, 05:19:04 PMIf it helps you to think that way, I won't interfere.
It does help, thank you.
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2017, 03:58:55 PM
I can't think of anything to be jealous about.
Well I cannot think of any other reason to hate such a perfectly lovely country :hmm:
One of the gray eminences behind the Catalan independence movement (guy I know and that I actually worked for once) has been spotted in certain south american embassy in London...
Quote from: celedhring on November 12, 2017, 07:09:42 PM
One of the gray eminences behind the Catalan independence movement (guy I know and that I actually worked for once) has been spotted in certain south american embassy in London...
I hear those who enter the Embassy of Ecuador never want to leave.
Well, it's no mystery that Assange has been involved with this mess, but this reveals a larger degree of coordination than I expected.
Intriguing. How is he involved?
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on November 13, 2017, 04:45:54 AM
Intriguing. How is he involved?
L.
Russian bots have been working overtime these weeks in favor of the separatists.
So far, Assange has been tweeting drivel and being interviewed by pro-separatist media. Dunno if that meeting means wikileaks is going to step it up a notch with a view on the upcoming election.
And people actually pretend like he is anything other than a stooge for fucking Putin.
Quote from: Berkut on November 13, 2017, 09:07:39 AM
And people actually pretend like he is anything other than a stooge for fucking Putin.
How did the Donald get dragged into this?!?
Funniest thing, if there's a country that could get Ecuador to kick Assange out of the London embassy, that's Spain - relations between both countries are really tight, and Spain is currently the main backer for the FTA with the EU currently in process.
Don't think Madrid will care enough to spend political capital on him, but the schadenfreude...
Quote from: Berkut on November 13, 2017, 09:07:39 AM
And people actually pretend like he is anything other than a stooge for fucking Putin.
Russia's been funny in this. Officially they back Spain, but RT and the bot army have been working overtime in favor of the separatist cause.
And know what? Spain used to be one of Russia's potential allies within the EU. We're far from the front line in the east, and we have plenty of economic ties with Russia - the ban on vegetable exports hurt our agriculture, for example, and we'd be one of the first countries to back de-escalation with them. But now? Today our Foreign Minister has openly denounced meddling from "Russian-based agents" (although it has stopped short of directly accusing the Russian government) in the European Council, and I can tell you that next time that easing sanctions on Russia is put on the table, Spain's going to wipe its arse with that.
Quote from: celedhring on November 13, 2017, 04:48:53 AM
Quote from: Pedrito on November 13, 2017, 04:45:54 AM
Intriguing. How is he involved?
L.
Russian bots have been working overtime these weeks in favor of the separatists.
So far, Assange has been tweeting drivel and being interviewed by pro-separatist media. Dunno if that meeting means wikileaks is going to step it up a notch with a view on the upcoming election.
I suspected something like that, but thought I might have been too paranoid...
Quote from: Berkut on November 13, 2017, 09:07:39 AM
And people actually pretend like he is anything other than a stooge for fucking Putin.
You called it years ago dude back when I was idiotically thinking he was an honest broker.
Quote from: celedhring on November 13, 2017, 09:27:37 AM
Funniest thing, if there's a country that could get Ecuador to kick Assange out of the London embassy, that's Spain - relations between both countries are really tight, and Spain is currently the main backer for the FTA with the EU currently in process.
Don't think Madrid will care enough to spend political capital on him, but the schadenfreude...
Yes, I wondered about that one. I know Spain is super-close to Latin America.
IIRC Latin Americans can get a Spanish passport after 2 years of residence? Seems like something a Latin American government would be wary of ruining, big potential to annoy the people.
To be fair Ecuador is one of those South American countries that works tirelessly to shoot itself in the foot at every opportunity.
Quote from: Tyr on November 13, 2017, 12:45:42 PM
Quote from: celedhring on November 13, 2017, 09:27:37 AM
Funniest thing, if there's a country that could get Ecuador to kick Assange out of the London embassy, that's Spain - relations between both countries are really tight, and Spain is currently the main backer for the FTA with the EU currently in process.
Don't think Madrid will care enough to spend political capital on him, but the schadenfreude...
Yes, I wondered about that one. I know Spain is super-close to Latin America.
IIRC Latin Americans can get a Spanish passport after 2 years of residence? Seems like something a Latin American government would be wary of ruining, big potential to annoy the people.
Yeah, all Latin American countries + a few select others get the 2 years of residence for citizenship deal. Anyway that wouldn't be messed up with, if anything Spain could tax remitances (Ecuador's 2nd main source of foreign currency after its oil exports), as the Ecuadorian community in Spain is amongst the largests, if not the largest of all Ecuadorian communities abroad.
Quote from: Valmy on November 13, 2017, 01:08:54 PM
To be fair Ecuador is one of those South American countries that works tirelessly to shoot itself in the foot at every opportunity.
Fun fact, the 1st big wave of inmigration from Ecuador in the 50s was due to the collapse of its Panama hat industry. :P
Quote from: The Larch on November 13, 2017, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 13, 2017, 01:08:54 PM
To be fair Ecuador is one of those South American countries that works tirelessly to shoot itself in the foot at every opportunity.
Fun fact, the 1st big wave of inmigration from Ecuador in the 50s was due to the collapse of its Panama hat industry. :P
Ha! :lol:
Manuel Valls (who's Barcelona-born) said today that he's willing to come and campaign against the separatists in the upcoming election.
We're fucked. :(
:lmfao:
Former French prime minister, in the late François Holland Era, for those who do not know him (yet). :lol:
He jokingly mentioned Barça could play in the French league if Catalonia became independent. :P
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on November 16, 2017, 11:44:53 AM
He jokingly mentioned Barça could play in the French league if Catalonia became independent. :P
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Spain's Prosecutor General has died suddenly and unexpectedly (kidney infection).
We'll see who Madrid appoints. This can have a big effect on the cases against the fired Catalan government, since Maza - the deceased prosecutor - was a tough hardliner. Madrid had even insinuated that they'd rather like a more "sensitive" approach in the last weeks (which was largely unheeded by Maza). Spain's Prosecutor General is appointed by the government - with parliamentary assent -, but the government doesn't have any power over him past the appointment - neither can they fire him.
The Foreign Ministry of Ecuador has released a public notice warning Julian Assange that as an asylee he's barred from acting against the national interests of Ecuador, and highlighting Ecuador's friendship with Spain and the support for its territorial integrity :D
Assange has chosen the worst possible country to pick on, if he wants to remain holed up in London.
Quote from: celedhring on November 18, 2017, 08:33:10 PM
Spain's Prosecutor General has died suddenly and unexpectedly (kidney infection).
We'll see who Madrid appoints. This can have a big effect on the cases against the fired Catalan government, since Maza - the deceased prosecutor - was a tough hardliner. Madrid had even insinuated that they'd rather like a more "sensitive" approach in the last weeks (which was largely unheeded by Maza). Spain's Prosecutor General is appointed by the government - with parliamentary assent -, but the government doesn't have any power over him past the appointment - neither can they fire him.
Did someone rid them of that pesky prosecutor?
Quote from: celedhring on November 22, 2017, 03:43:30 PM
The Foreign Ministry of Ecuador has released a public notice warning Julian Assange that as an asylee he's barred from acting against the national interests of Ecuador, and highlighting Ecuador's friendship with Spain and the support for its territorial integrity :D
Assange has chosen the worst possible country to pick on, if he wants to remain holed up in London.
Well maybe the Russians didn't ask him if he thought it was a good idea.
Well, next week the Spanish Supreme Court will announce the veredict for the Catalan leaders that spearheaded the failed independence push of 2017 (except those who went abroad). It is widely expected that they won't be convicted for rebellion, but will probably get done for sedition (so roughly half what the prosecution was asking).
Separatists are trying to organize massive protests, aiming to get a Hong Kong scenario rolling. Attendance to marches and support for independence in polls has been falling steadily, and its pretty much at its lowest ebb since the whole push for independence began in 2012. So they kinda see the convictions as the last chance to do... something I guess. I presume we'll get some days of protests with the occasional mild riot (plus blocked roads/railways) but I'd be surprised if it really goes out of control. That said, a few weeks ago they arrested a bunch of radicals that were allegedly cooking explosives, so there's always the chance that some crazy idiot will seize the chance.
The sentence came out today, 9-13 years, half what the prosecution was asking for. The Guardian has an excellent writeup on the whole situation, past, present and questions going forward.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences
We've had mild protests so far today. A few blocked roads, but nothing major. Underground groups called for shutting down the Barcelona airport but the turnout so far seems small and the police has it under control. We'll see how the day develops. Most people are still at work, and Catalan protestors tend to reconcile protesting with their jobs, so it could escalate in the afternoon.
What a banana republic (well, it is not a republic) Spain is...
And I don't mean to be against Catalonia's independance, but to imprison the leaders.
Quote from: Rex Francorum on October 14, 2019, 06:37:35 PM
What a banana republic (well, it is not a republic) Spain is...
And I don't mean to be against Catalonia's independance, but to imprison the leaders.
Agreed. It's extraordinary and wrong.
Why is it wrong? They're seditionists who called for illegal actions against the state. I mean you can argue against the length of time, I guess, but I wouldnt go so far as to call it wrong.
*edit* reading the article, they also got convicted of misappropriating government funds
They are traitors and criminals :mad:
The sentences do seem overly long for what was essentially an exercise in political theater. A peaceful one.
Well I don't know the full extent of the charges but generally I am not all that excited about making political martyrs.
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2019, 08:00:15 PM
Well I don't know the full extent of the charges but generally I am not all that excited about making political martyrs.
No one is, but sometimes you just have to do it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 14, 2019, 07:56:28 PM
The sentences do seem overly long for what was essentially an exercise in political theater. A peaceful one.
They stole public money to carry out that theater. And are also traitors.
What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for The Mississippi congress declaring the Confederacy independent? Or would that just be theater?
Well Québec independantists didn't suffer any witchunt, because, well, they have the right to express their desire to leave Canada. Why should it be different elsewhere?
Quote from: chipwich on October 14, 2019, 10:02:21 PM
They stole public money to carry out that theater. And are also traitors.
What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for The Mississippi congress declaring the Confederacy independent? Or would that just be theater?
Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums? Was Sarah Palin's husband a traitor for being a registered member of the (legal) Alaska Independence Party?
In my mind there's a difference between the theater, the speeches, the proclamations, the flying of independence flags and violence. Lincoln felt it important to wait for the South to fire the first shot.
And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.
The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law? They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".
Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".
The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2019, 12:59:02 AM
Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums?
The circumstances were just a little different.
Quote from: celedhring on October 15, 2019, 01:04:26 AM
And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.
The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law? They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".
Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".
The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.
Does someone in Spain have a pardon power? The best solution would be to convict them and then immediately pardon them. This satisfies the requirements of the law, nobody goes to jail over silly bullshit, and the secessionists look very, very small while the government looks magnanimous.
Quote from: Rex Francorum on October 15, 2019, 12:50:18 AM
Well Québec independantists didn't suffer any witchunt, because, well, they have the right to express their desire to leave Canada. Why should it be different elsewhere?
It is illegal in Spain to steal public funds to organize a referendum that the government has no power to organize. Whether Quebec has the power to hold secessionist referendums in the totally different nation of Canada is irrelevant.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2019, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 15, 2019, 01:04:26 AM
And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.
The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law? They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".
Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".
The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.
Does someone in Spain have a pardon power? The best solution would be to convict them and then immediately pardon them. This satisfies the requirements of the law, nobody goes to jail over silly bullshit, and the secessionists look very, very small while the government looks magnanimous.
The government can, and that has indeed been in the cards as an option to ease things. Of course, it being something that could alleviate tension, the right has been all "Don't you DARE to pardon them" at the government for the last few months. I also believe that some kind of indult is needed to move things forward in a positive direction, but that'd really tense things up on the right.
As cel said, the court was in a really tricky position, having to apply a law that didn't really fit the events (we've had plenty of "what counts as sedition and what as rebellion" arguments in the last few months), in a really tense political atmosphere. At the end of the day the court has to apply the law, it's not there to do politics.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2019, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 15, 2019, 01:04:26 AM
And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.
The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law? They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".
Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".
The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.
Does someone in Spain have a pardon power? The best solution would be to convict them and then immediately pardon them. This satisfies the requirements of the law, nobody goes to jail over silly bullshit, and the secessionists look very, very small while the government looks magnanimous.
The government can, if we had one (acting government can't grant pardons), and strong enough to weather the crisis that would result from it. I am unsure about granting pardons to guys that say that "they will do it again", but I am not opposed to it as part of an overall solution where the guys really really promise that they won't do it again. I don't get a particular kick of them being in jail, but I would rather they don't try to push my land off a cliff again.
They want to acheve independence? Fine, convince enough people to reform the constitution. Right now roughly 25% of Spanish parliament would be in favor. You need 66% but it's something to work with, instead of alienating the people you'd need by calling them fascists and robbers.
Quote from: chipwich on October 15, 2019, 02:17:33 AM
It is illegal in Spain to steal public funds to organize a referendum that the government has no power to organize. Whether Quebec has the power to hold secessionist referendums in the totally different nation of Canada is irrelevant.
You were the one who introduced the cross country comparison. Spain and US.
John Bercow's really enjoying his last two weeks. He's just announced the jailed politicians are welcome to address our Parliament :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2019, 07:47:53 AM
John Bercow's really enjoying his last two weeks. He's just announced the jailed politicians are welcome to address our Parliament :lol:
Heh, the same guy that just had to deal with an executive breaking the law using some referendum as an excuse...
To be fair, I don't know much about Spanish politics. I suggested the pardons because it tends to calm things down. It's also somewhat humiliating to the political leaders who receive them and damages their credibility.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2019, 12:59:02 AM
Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums? Was Sarah Palin's husband a traitor for being a registered member of the (legal) Alaska Independence Party?
Quebec and Scotland were allowed by the laws of their countries to hold secession referendums (though based on Wikipedia it's unclear if Quebec had the right to a UDI after the referendum.) Under American law agitating for secession is not illegal.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2019, 10:40:52 AM
To be fair, I don't know much about Spanish politics. I suggested the pardons because it tends to calm things down. It's also somewhat humiliating to the political leaders who receive them and damages their credibility.
Not at all the outcome in this case. They would understand pardons as sanctioning what they did, which was no less than a coup. A shitty, hopeless coup, but one nonetheless. One which has fractured Catalan society in two.
The problem with these sort of shenanigans is that until now there were no consequences. The constitution says X? The courts say Y? Fuck them. I'm untouchable.
The one silver lining is that now it has dawned on them that actions have consequences. That's why despite the constant aggressive rhetoric, the separatist establishment (politicians and civil servants) has done essentially nothing for the past two years.
My one worry is the sentences might be too mild to discourage others. 8-13 years sounds like a lot, but they will be eligible for partial release in a few months to a year. They will serve 2-3 years, and as VIP prisoners (since separatists control the penitentiary system in Catalonia).
As a comparison, the last guy to head a coup (which lasted less than 24 hours and during which no one was injured) served 16 years, 13 before any kind of partial release.
Quote from: chipwich on October 15, 2019, 02:17:33 AM
Quote from: Rex Francorum on October 15, 2019, 12:50:18 AM
Well Québec independantists didn't suffer any witchunt, because, well, they have the right to express their desire to leave Canada. Why should it be different elsewhere?
It is illegal in Spain to steal public funds to organize a referendum that the government has no power to organize. Whether Quebec has the power to hold secessionist referendums in the totally different nation of Canada is irrelevant.
As if anything the Spanish state says can be taken for thruth in this matter.
Spain is the China of the EU, including the beating up of civilians.
:lol:
Show us on the doll where they hurt you.
So, protests turned violent tonight. There's some fires downtown. Police fighting rioters. I never got the logic behind "I hate Spain! I want Catalonia to be independent! Let's burn down Barcelona!"
Also the logic behind the Catalan government encouraging the protests and then sending in the riot police. Then again, they're insane.
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/img-20191015-wa0005-jpg.518689/)
Rise up people of Catalonia!
Wait...um...nevermind be suppressed!
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2019, 03:36:25 PM
Rise up people of Catalonia!
Wait...um...nevermind be suppressed!
One of the Catalan ministers literally said today the Catalan police charged and dispersed protesters to protect them from the Spanish state (who would have jailed them instead).
I am sure all those people beaten by the cops are grateful.
Catalan riot police either has brass balls or shit for brains. I'm not sure that gear is fireproof.
(https://www.lavanguardia.com/rf/image_large/GODO/LV/p3/WebSite/2015/10/17/Recortada/2019-10-15T201717Z_162391041_RC16C1BBA4A0_RTRMADP_3_SPAIN-POLITICS-CATALONIA-PROTEST_20191015222050-123-U202248553619W8D-U47995111879qKI-1600x582@LaVanguardia-Web-Portada.jpg)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2019, 12:59:02 AM
Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums?
Scotland's referendum was negotiated with the Westminster government and conducted based on UK legislation. The SNP government are planning to hold a unilateral referendum (depending on Brexit) on the basis that that will represent a material change from when Scotland was last asked.
QuoteIn my mind there's a difference between the theater, the speeches, the proclamations, the flying of independence flags and violence. Lincoln felt it important to wait for the South to fire the first shot.
Agree. Also I know this wasn't how they saw it, but I have an issue with viewing a peaceful, democratic, secessionist movement aiming to establish a democratic state is different than one looking to secede to ensure slavery survives.
QuoteThe court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law? They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".
Agreed. But I've literally never understood what the Spanish state is trying to achieve. It seems to always escalate when ignoring and moving on would probably work better.
Take this court case: what is the best case scenario?
As I see it you get convictions which creates martyrs and the current situation, or you get slap-on-the-wrist convictions which strengthens them because it indicates the court views this whole prosecution as technically right but ridiculous, or they get which also strengthens them. What outcome did the Spanish state want?
Separately I find it really interesting that it's separatism that has sparked the far right in Spain, while in the rest of Europe it's broadly been immigration in one form or other.
Two things. The court could hardly look away, it's not there to make politically motivated decisions on whether it is more politically expedient to sentence or not. Also, Madrid already tried the "look away and move on" approach on the two previous "referendums", and it just enticed separatists to keep raising their bet.
Current Spanish administration seems more willing to just have them stew in their juices and wait until someone more sane is in charge of Catalonia (they already offered further devolution last year and they were rebuked by the Catalan government), but I'm afraid the right will benefit from the current disturbances and we'll get a very weak government next November, or an altogether hung parliament. This will not help the crisis.
Quote from: celedhring on October 15, 2019, 05:47:00 PM
Two things. The court could hardly look away, it's not there to make politically motivated decisions on whether it is more politically expedient to sentence or not.
Sure, but presumably the prosecutors have discretion in this. I agree about the court.
QuoteAlso, Madrid already tried the "look away and move on" approach on the two previous "referendums", and it just enticed separatists to keep raising their bet.
Sure but a neverendum that has relatively low impact (like 2014) is probably better than all of this.
In fairness personally I've had more or less zero sympathy with Spain since the police's conduct on the day of the vote which I think was an absolute disgrace. But also it seems to me just a little Talleryand-y: worse than a crime, a blunder. I've never been able to see the upside: after a vigorous action by Madrid, the Catalan separatists just decided to jack it all in?
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2019, 05:58:35 PM
Sure, but presumably the prosecutors have discretion in this. I agree about the court.
Relatively. Even though having a prosecutor behind a case boosts its chances of making it to trial significantly, any private citizen or organization that can prove standing can bring criminal cases to the court, and in case of secession that was trivial. There were already some in the system when the state prosecutor finally moved in.
Also, there were some rumored dealings (and not rumored, there were witnessess to that effect during the trial) that there were negotiation attempts where Puigdemont would call an election, and the prosecutor would have gone softer, and there wouldn't have been direct rule. He instead made the UDI and fled.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2019, 05:58:35 PM
In fairness personally I've had more or less zero sympathy with Spain since the police's conduct on the day of the vote which I think was an absolute disgrace. But also it seems to me just a little Talleryand-y: worse than a crime, a blunder. I've never been able to see the upside: after a vigorous action by Madrid, the Catalan separatists just decided to jack it all in?
I don't know, I was disgusted by it too (you can check my posts from back then if you want) and I still think the Catalan gov aren't the good guys here.
Quote from: celedhring on October 15, 2019, 06:17:42 PM
I don't know, I was disgusted by it too (you can check my posts from back then if you want) and I still think the Catalan gov aren't the good guys here.
Same. But I can work out what the Catalan government are trying to achieve.
I can't work out what the Spanish government is trying to achieve, except for help the Catalan government.
Although as I say we're not far away from this happening here. The news tonight had a big section with the SNP at their conference planning their unilateral referendum after Brexit. Though as I say, I do sympathise with their view that Brexit fundamentally alters the picture as does a Johnson government.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2019, 06:26:46 PM
I can't work out what the Spanish government is trying to achieve, except for help the Catalan government.
I think that trying to look for a single-minded purpose in two different branches of the state (judiciary and executive), and an executive that has since then changed hands is going to make it look like that. The Catalan question becoming a fault line in party politics hasn't certainly helped.
Are the people of Catolonia second class citizens? Do they face a great deal of persecution? I'm not trying to make some sort of point here, I'm genuinely asking. I know they had it rough under Franco, do those sort of policies still exist?
Personally I don't care for dividing up countries, though it can be necessary in some cases.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2019, 07:36:55 PM
Are the people of Catolonia second class citizens? Do they face a great deal of persecution? I'm not trying to make some sort of point here, I'm genuinely asking. I know they had it rough under Franco, do those sort of policies still exist?
Of course not. Catalan nationalism is a mixture of cultural (with a pinch of ethnic thrown in in recent times) and economic nationalism (of the "We're rich and the rest of the country not so much, so we'd rather keep the money rather than share" variety).
Well there are two sides to this issue in Catalonia. How do the Unionists feel about how the Spanish Government is handling this? Are they encouraged and empowered by their actions? Would they be demoralized if the secessionists got off lightly? There might be some calculation I don't know.
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2019, 07:43:22 PM
Well there are two sides to this issue in Catalonia. How do the Unionists feel about how the Spanish Government is handling this? Are they encouraged and empowered by their actions? Would they be demoralized if the secessionists got off lightly? There might be some calculation I don't know.
As cel said, this is an extremely divisive issue in Spanish politics at the moment. Ciudadanos, the staunchly unionistic most voted party in Catalonia in the latest regional elections and until recently a rising force at the national level in the center-right side of the spectrum took a turn towards demanding a much heavier handed treatment of the situation, including an indefinite suspension of Catalonia's self government (which is completely agains the constitution and the rulings of the courts) and much harsher sentences, as well as completely ruling out any kind of pardon. Vox, our home grown far righters, were present in the trial as civil accusation, were also requesting extremely harsh sentences (and were happily ignored by the judges).
Ok so there is a key issue there. You don't want to piss off the other team by appeasing the secessionists too much.
Damn why does every issue in the world seem to be like this these days?
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2019, 08:05:02 PM
Ok so there is a key issue there. You don't want to piss off the other team by appeasing the secessionists too much.
Damn why does every issue in the world seem to be like this these days?
And we have general elections in a few weeks as well. If the government goes easy on the independentists that'd make the opposition go balistic. Mind you, the current ruling already pisses off the left wing parties as well, who consider it excessive, on top of the right wing ones, who consider it lenient.
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2019, 08:05:02 PM
Ok so there is a key issue there. You don't want to piss off the other team by appeasing the secessionists too much.
Damn why does every issue in the world seem to be like this these days?
Appeasement has been state policy for the last 40 years and the problem has only grown worse. It still is the chosen policy, and the mildness of sentencing shows it does translate somehow to the judiciary.
It is clear that separatists have been using control of public media and education to radicalize the population for decades, but neither the socdems nor the conservatives have had the balls to do anything about it. Thus the rise of alternative parties proposing harsh measures (Cs and the far right).
There is no long term plan for unionists. Even within Catalonia they are divided. Some want to keep things as they once were and keep using separatism as a way of getting more power (PSC), others want to suspend autonomy indefinitely (Cs).
Tonight protestors are turning against the Catalan government, having finally noticed the dissonance between following their indications to protest, only to then get beaten by the Catalan police. So instead of clashes and fires in front of Spanish state buildings, tonight we have clashes and fires in front of Catalan gov. buildings.
Revolutions, children, etc...
Both protesters and police really need to turn it up a notch. Too boring. Although, Cpt. Bicycle did add a nice touch.
(https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/506161/Untitled-3.jpg)
Quote from: Iormlund on October 16, 2019, 03:10:47 PM
Both protesters and police really need to turn it up a notch. Too boring. Although, Cpt. Bicycle did add a nice touch.
Rather they didn't...
(https://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/6/9/disturbios-frente-conselleria-interior-1571255868996.jpg)
The revolution will be instagramed.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG9IAKAXYAIwdJM.jpg:large)
Sports team mentality through and through, actual statehood and it's consequences are an afterthought. Same with Brexit.
I find all these pictures of rioters taking pics/selfies by fires utterly fascinating. Surely a symbol of this age.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHENx-kW4AAX1Vb.jpg:large)
The Great Narcissist Revolt
Someone needs to photoshop that into Delacroix's painting.
(https://img.youtube.com/vi/6skizQlC-uU/0.jpg)
Or briefcase man from Tianneman Square.
Kicking it up a notch.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHB0gmLWsAEn9I9.jpg)
This is right up there with Trump's letter.
Could somebody please shift us back to the normal timeline? Something clearly has gone seriously wrong somewhere, probably with the Great Hadron Collider.
:lol: The influencer I don't great.
The rest of it I kind of do :blush:
The same radical group responsible for yesterday's riots has called for another protest this evening, they are theming it (yes, a themed riot) after the 1936 Olympics :huh:
Fitness mama is pretty hot.
Spaniards always holding their side of the bargain.
Quote from: celedhring on October 17, 2019, 07:57:25 AM
The same radical group responsible for yesterday's riots has called for another protest this evening, they are theming it (yes, a themed riot) after the 1936 Olympics :huh:
:huh:
Quote from: Tamas on October 17, 2019, 08:02:18 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 17, 2019, 07:57:25 AM
The same radical group responsible for yesterday's riots has called for another protest this evening, they are theming it (yes, a themed riot) after the 1936 Olympics :huh:
:huh:
Aha, it looks it's not the Berlin one, but this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Olympiad
How much is the Freddy Mercury/Montserrat Caballé song of the 1992 Olympics being played during the protests, if at all?
Quote from: Syt on October 17, 2019, 08:18:11 AM
How much is the Freddy Mercury/Montserrat Caballé song of the 1992 Olympics being played during the protests, if at all?
Damn, that would be awesome :lol:
But no, it's boring political chants and the odd patriotic song.
:(
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 17, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
Fitness mama is pretty hot.
Looks like a young Julia Roberts.
So, another night, another riot. A couple stores got sacked, fires, etc... This time we had the Spanish far-right joining the "fun", with a roving band of nazis moving around and picking off stragglers from the main separatist protest.
Most worrysome thing is that for the first time the Catalan police looked tired and overextended after all these days. There weren't as many rioters yesterday as in other nights, but they were able to move around and burn stuff quite easily. There's a general strike today, so violence is expected to rise in the evening. I presume they'll end up having to ask the Spanish police for help, and Madrid will happily oblige.
In the political arena, there's a burgeoning crisis in the Catalan government due to the riots, as the president is seen as being soft/not caring about them. He left a crisis meeting of the Catalan cabinet to join a protest march, which made his coalition partners (who are polling way ahead of the president's party and will use anything to try to provoke an election) furious. Later, the president made the surprise announcement in Parliament that he intended to hold another independence referendum this term (neverendum!), but not even his own MPs seemed to get behind the proposal. He's looking pretty isolated at this point.
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
. I presume they'll end up having to ask the Spanish police for help, and Madrid will happily oblige.
If I were Madrid I'd say no. let them burn down their own city, especially if they are going to keep re-electing secessionists.
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
. I presume they'll end up having to ask the Spanish police for help, and Madrid will happily oblige.
If I were Madrid I'd say no. let them burn down their own city, especially if they are going to keep re-electing secessionists.
That's a good way to turn more people into secessionists.
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
. I presume they'll end up having to ask the Spanish police for help, and Madrid will happily oblige.
If I were Madrid I'd say no. let them burn down their own city, especially if they are going to keep re-electing secessionists.
Secessionists are not the majority in Barcelona: out of 85 seats, 38 are for pro-secessionist parties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_(Parliament_of_Catalonia_constituency)
So...maybe not let them burn down Barcelona?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 18, 2019, 08:42:52 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
. I presume they'll end up having to ask the Spanish police for help, and Madrid will happily oblige.
If I were Madrid I'd say no. let them burn down their own city, especially if they are going to keep re-electing secessionists.
That's a good way to turn more people into secessionists.
They won't have the cruel fascist Bananna Republic Spanish police to blame.
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2019, 08:50:14 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
. I presume they'll end up having to ask the Spanish police for help, and Madrid will happily oblige.
If I were Madrid I'd say no. let them burn down their own city, especially if they are going to keep re-electing secessionists.
Secessionists are not the majority in Barcelona: out of 85 seats, 38 are for pro-secessionist parties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_(Parliament_of_Catalonia_constituency)
So...maybe not let them burn down Barcelona?
It will encourage the Catalan police and prison authorities to stop appeasing secesionists.
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2019, 09:09:00 AM
It will encourage the Catalan police and prison authorities to stop appeasing secesionists.
They are ruled by secessionist parties in government.
Though in fairness the police changed its tune almost immediately after their commissioner was indicted and appeared before the judge, having been left to rot by his political masters. Proof that leniency and appeasement is not the correct path. Any pardon would be counterproductive and I for one will never vote for a leader that chooses to do so.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 18, 2019, 10:17:03 AM
Though in fairness the police changed its tune almost immediately after their commissioner was indicted and appeared before the judge, having been left to rot by his political masters.
Dude even turned Prosecution Witness during the trial, looking to save his own skin.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 18, 2019, 10:17:03 AM
Though in fairness the police changed its tune almost immediately
In which direction?
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2019, 12:30:44 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 18, 2019, 10:17:03 AM
Though in fairness the police changed its tune almost immediately
In which direction?
The commissioner and other high ranking members of the regional police were complicit in the execution of the illegal referendum of the 1-O and the siege of the judiciary raid a few days before, siding openly with the separatist movement.
The commissioner and one of her lieutenants were indicted and appear before court not long afterwards. They were thrown to the wolves by their political rulers. When it dawned on them that they were facing jail time, they in turn threw individual policemen under the bus, arguing that they had given no orders to help the separatists and what happened was down to each agent.
That pretty much ended whatever allegiance the Catalan police had to the separatist leadership. Upon the declaration of independence, the new bosses immediately declared for the current order an thus killed any hope of the abortive state.
The men themselves are probably still deeply divided, as is Catalan society, but they are also well aware of the personal consequences now.
(https://i.imgur.com/LTAroXQ.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHMmvbeWwAEuary.jpg:large)
:lol:
There's also a video floating around showing a couple having sexual intercourse in their balcony while watching the riots, but I suspect it's taken from some other place and being passed as being from Barcelona.
Quote from: celedhring on October 19, 2019, 02:01:55 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHMmvbeWwAEuary.jpg:large)
I love Europeans.
Same in Hong Kong. I mean, if there is a riot going on downstairs, you can't leave for a while anyway. May as well stay and wait until it is over.
Things have calmed down this weekend. Hopefully it remains that way going into the week, although radicals have vowed to keep the pressure.
We have a cop on the throes of death, and things could go ballistic if he dies. We are amidst a general election campaign and the right is grilling the socdems for being soft (imho, the socdems have done what they should, send police reinforcements and stay away from overreacting politically).
Things have been calm since that first week, except for some small-scale demos. However, some radical separatist groups are apparently planning to attempt to shut down polling stations in next weekend's general election.
From the looks of it nobody outside Spain cares anymore. But nevertheless I think that would be a mistake. As we saw in this very thread about the only point they scored abroad was on the "we just want to vote and they won't let us" narrative. That comes crashing down if they forcibly tamper with elections.
The same group that orchestrated the airport blockade has summoned people in downtown Barcelona the evening before the election. Catalan police fears they'll intend to occupy polling stations in the Barcelona area (which of course leans unionist :rolleyes:), there are also some messaging coming from the CDR grapevine that they intend to do so.
We'll see. I agree that it'd be beyond idiotic from a PR perspective, but some parts of separatism are fully in "some people just want to see the world burn" phase.
Has the Brexit crap had any impact on their wish to leave the EU?
Quote from: The Brain on November 02, 2019, 05:11:01 AM
Has the Brexit crap had any impact on their wish to leave the EU?
"The EU isn't that great anyway".
Wait, they want to leave the EU?
I thought the whole idea was the same as with Scotland, to smoothly switch over to being an independent EU member.
Quote from: Tyr on November 03, 2019, 06:00:42 PM
Wait, they want to leave the EU?
I thought the whole idea was the same as with Scotland, to smoothly switch over to being an independent EU member.
They don't want to leave the EU per se. Their running assumption while the process was still civil was that they'd transition to being an EU member but as an independent country. When things turned sour and they saw that by and large the EU kept itself away from the mess and didn't want to get involved into a member country's internal issues they started expressing in disbelief how could it be that the EU was not inserting itself as a mediator to get them independence, and now they're in kind of a "if this is what the EU is about we don't really want to be part of it anyway".
In any case, political realism has left the building a long time ago.
That's sad. I did see a lot of brexiters quite oddly taking up the catalan independence cause (how dare the EU not interfere in member state affairs!) and using it as a stick de jure to attack Europe about.
Which is funny when you think of it considering the old Republican Spain associations that I believe still hold amongst catalan independence groups and the political leanings of Britain's shit.
But surprising the catalans themselves are also swallowing this line.
Quote from: Tyr on November 03, 2019, 06:00:42 PM
Wait, they want to leave the EU?
I thought the whole idea was the same as with Scotland, to smoothly switch over to being an independent EU member.
If they leave Spain abruptly (which some of them appear to want) they automatically leave the EU.
So... what are the chances this will all be right as rain by, say, December 9? :)
Quote from: merithyn on November 04, 2019, 11:38:33 AM
So... what are the chances this will all be right as rain by, say, December 9? :)
You should be fine, don't worry. I can't see anything happening by that date (protests are usually very reactive).
Quote from: celedhring on November 04, 2019, 01:52:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 04, 2019, 11:38:33 AM
So... what are the chances this will all be right as rain by, say, December 9? :)
You should be fine, don't worry. I can't see anything happening by that date (protests are usually very reactive).
I'll count on you to tell me where to avoid, should that become necessary. :unsure:
Yeah for sure, but it will be fine. Nothing to protest against happening in those dates.
Independentists are blocking the motorway between France and Spain, so now the Gendarmerie gets to join the fun.
https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/operation-pour-deloger-les-independantistes-qui-bloquent-l-autoroute-france-espagne-20191112 (https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/operation-pour-deloger-les-independantistes-qui-bloquent-l-autoroute-france-espagne-20191112)
Dunno who told them that it was a better idea to set this up in the French side of the border, I guess they haven't been paying attention to the Gendarmerie exchanging pleasantries with the yellow vests for months. The French cops have even used tear gas.
Advocate General of CJEU has given an opinion in favour of Junqueras. Mostly seems like common sense points. The Court doesn't always, but normally follows the AG's opinion.
PSOE and Podemos have just announced an agreement to form a coalition government. I don't know wether to laugh or cry, all while despairing the whole time.
Oh, the arguments for not giving Junqueras his seat always looked a bit dodgy to me, but at least the Spanish Court made the step of consulting with the ECJ (Junqueras' sentence is suspended until the ruling).
Still, the Advocate General concedes that the sentence effectively removes him from office, so it won't help Junqueras much, but if the court rules in that direction it will affect others.
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2019, 09:47:49 AM
PSOE and Podemos have just announced an agreement to form a coalition government. I don't know wether to laugh or cry, all while despairing the whole time.
Could have done that 3 months ago, indeed.
Quote from: celedhring on November 12, 2019, 09:49:19 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2019, 09:47:49 AM
PSOE and Podemos have just announced an agreement to form a coalition government. I don't know wether to laugh or cry, all while despairing the whole time.
Could have done that 3 months ago, indeed.
It would have saved so much grief. We'd still have an at least nominally liberal party as the 3rd force in parliament rather than a far right one.
Let's see if they now can get enough support to get to 176 MPs.
Incidentally, the coalition agreement includes language about "fomenting talks in Catalonia, seeking formulas of agreement and understanding, within the Constitutional framework". Of course all the separatist parties are already howling that this is an unacceptable red line.
When they say "Spain, sit and talk" they mean "Spain, give us what we want".
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
For sure. Basically, what happened was that Rivera got drunk on his own Kool-aid, and after the previous elections, when PP dropped to their historical minimum, saw overcoming them as a real possibility, thus becoming the main right wing party in Spain. They then went hard to the right in some issues, dropping centrist voters along the way and being outcompeted by a resurgent PP and Vox on the right, ending up in a bit of a middle of nowhere politically. The party is now in disarray, and what they do in the next months will determine their future viability, if there's any to be had.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
It's a bit more complicated than that.
Just about the only red line Cs has is separatism. That is what it was born against.
That line was first crossed by Iglesias in 2015 in order to provoke new elections by making a PSOE-Cs-podemos government impossible (he was gambling on becoming the new left replacing PSOE).
After the UDI Sánchez also crossed that line (perhaps to keep his significant amount of Catalan voters). Sánchez also tried to paint Cs as radical right, knowing perfectly well that they both split the moderate vote. Rivera gladly helped him by trying to replace PP (in a repetition of Iglesias' aforementioned failure).
The end result was that Cs could no longer look to the left for pacts. All that remained were PP+Vox. And that's where we are now.
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2019, 06:39:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
For sure. Basically, what happened was that Rivera got drunk on his own Kool-aid, and after the previous elections, when PP dropped to their historical minimum, saw overcoming them as a real possibility, thus becoming the main right wing party in Spain. They then went hard to the right in some issues, dropping centrist voters along the way and being outcompeted by a resurgent PP and Vox on the right, ending up in a bit of a middle of nowhere politically. The party is now in disarray, and what they do in the next months will determine their future viability, if there's any to be had.
Ok so where did the centrist voters flee to?
Quote from: Valmy on November 12, 2019, 07:00:48 PM
Ok so where did the centrist voters flee to?
I stayed home. I was not alone. There are at least a million unaccounted center votes in the last election alone. And many of us bailed in the previous one, after Rivera turned right.
Abandoning the base to try to reach new voters has tanked many a political party. Well hopefully they put Ines in charge next time.
They are done for, I think. Their liberal core was purged or left in protest long ago. Plus the Spanish electoral system is no FPTP, but still quite ruthless on minority parties (unless they are concentrated on a few provinces).
Quote from: Iormlund on November 12, 2019, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
It's a bit more complicated than that.
Just about the only red line Cs has is separatism. That is what it was born against.
That line was first crossed by Iglesias in 2015 in order to provoke new elections by making a PSOE-Cs-podemos government impossible (he was gambling on becoming the new left replacing PSOE).
After the UDI Sánchez also crossed that line (perhaps to keep his significant amount of Catalan voters). Sánchez also tried to paint Cs as radical right, knowing perfectly well that they both split the moderate vote. Rivera gladly helped him by trying to replace PP (in a repetition of Iglesias' aforementioned failure).
The end result was that Cs could no longer look to the left for pacts. All that remained were PP+Vox. And that's where we are now.
We have very different readings of some of the events that took place. :P
When did, in your opinion, Podemos and PSOE cross the red line of separatism exactly?
Quote from: Iormlund on November 12, 2019, 07:15:16 PM
They are done for, I think. Their liberal core was purged or left in protest long ago. Plus the Spanish electoral system is no FPTP, but still quite ruthless on minority parties (unless they are concentrated on a few provinces).
Ah. Well where is the liberal core going? I presume they are not staying home forever.
Quote from: Valmy on November 12, 2019, 07:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2019, 06:39:39 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
For sure. Basically, what happened was that Rivera got drunk on his own Kool-aid, and after the previous elections, when PP dropped to their historical minimum, saw overcoming them as a real possibility, thus becoming the main right wing party in Spain. They then went hard to the right in some issues, dropping centrist voters along the way and being outcompeted by a resurgent PP and Vox on the right, ending up in a bit of a middle of nowhere politically. The party is now in disarray, and what they do in the next months will determine their future viability, if there's any to be had.
Ok so where did the centrist voters flee to?
In Spain centrist voters have a semi mythical status, like unicorns, in the sense that both PP and PSOE have, in the past claimed to be the only truly unique party that was moderate enough to better represent them, not like the other big party that was clearly extremist. This was supposed to change with C's, as they were the ones that were for real better suited for that niche, but as we said, they ruined it by veering hard to the right.
Quote from: Valmy on November 12, 2019, 07:20:19 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on November 12, 2019, 07:15:16 PM
They are done for, I think. Their liberal core was purged or left in protest long ago. Plus the Spanish electoral system is no FPTP, but still quite ruthless on minority parties (unless they are concentrated on a few provinces).
Ah. Well where is the liberal core going? I presume they are not staying home forever.
The liberal core is, supposedly, what they have left at this point.
There are 1 million of Cs voters that seem unaccounted for (they lost 2,5 million and the other right wing parties increased only 1,5 million overall).
Add those to the 1,5 million they retained and that's good enough for 20-ish seats, which could swing many elections. That is the most realistic target for a centrist party in Spain. To grow past that you have to veer either left of right, and we've just seen where that leads.
Well back in the 1930s it seemed like everybody in Spain was either a Communist or a Fascist. I see not much has changed :ph34r: :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on November 12, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
There are 1 million of Cs voters that seem unaccounted for (they lost 2,5 million and the other right wing parties increased only 1,5 million overall).
Add those to the 1,5 million they retained and that's good enough for 20-ish seats, which could swing many elections. That is the most realistic target for a centrist party in Spain. To grow past that you have to veer either left of right, and we've just seen where that leads.
And a party like that, with the ability to go right or left in coalitions depending on the situation, could become key to governance at national, regional and local level in this time and age, which is the tragedy of Cs. When they handcuffed themselves to PP they lost their purpose.
Quote from: Valmy on November 12, 2019, 07:49:09 PM
Well back in the 1930s it seemed like everybody in Spain was either a Communist or a Fascist. I see not much has changed :ph34r: :lol:
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold.
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2019, 07:18:10 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on November 12, 2019, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think the blame for the Cs supporting the far-right rather than being a normal liberal party (see also Macron's views on this) are with the Cs rather than the left.
It's a bit more complicated than that.
Just about the only red line Cs has is separatism. That is what it was born against.
That line was first crossed by Iglesias in 2015 in order to provoke new elections by making a PSOE-Cs-podemos government impossible (he was gambling on becoming the new left replacing PSOE).
After the UDI Sánchez also crossed that line (perhaps to keep his significant amount of Catalan voters). Sánchez also tried to paint Cs as radical right, knowing perfectly well that they both split the moderate vote. Rivera gladly helped him by trying to replace PP (in a repetition of Iglesias' aforementioned failure).
The end result was that Cs could no longer look to the left for pacts. All that remained were PP+Vox. And that's where we are now.
We have very different readings of some of the events that took place. :P
When did, in your opinion, Podemos and PSOE cross the red line of separatism exactly?
Podemos did so right from the start, during the 2015 election & aftermath. They put Catalonia on the table before it was cool.
Sánchez started relatively silent and supported the application of art. 155, however in a weakened state. Then gradually went softer (see his one on one with Torra). So much so he had to give Borrell a cabinet position to counter his bad PR amongst anti-nationalists.
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2019, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: celedhring on November 12, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
There are 1 million of Cs voters that seem unaccounted for (they lost 2,5 million and the other right wing parties increased only 1,5 million overall).
Add those to the 1,5 million they retained and that's good enough for 20-ish seats, which could swing many elections. That is the most realistic target for a centrist party in Spain. To grow past that you have to veer either left of right, and we've just seen where that leads.
And a party like that, with the ability to go right or left in coalitions depending on the situation, could become key to governance at national, regional and local level in this time and age, which is the tragedy of Cs. When they handcuffed themselves to PP they lost their purpose.
The problem is they would have to gain something tangible every cycle, or risk the fate of the LibDems who were seen as merely Cameron's stooges.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 12, 2019, 06:57:21 PM
It's a bit more complicated than that.
Just about the only red line Cs has is separatism. That is what it was born against.[...]
The end result was that Cs could no longer look to the left for pacts. All that remained were PP+Vox. And that's where we are now.
I mean they have agency. They could choose for example to not associate with the far right or the left and just vote on matters as they come (abstain on the initial confidence vote). They made a choice to work with Vox and share stages with Abascal and, as Macron always argued, you can't be a centrist, pro-European force at the European level and work with the far-right at home.
This is the sort of reason why Farage won't work with Le Pen and the Tories (historically) wouldn't work with Farage.
QuoteOk so where did the centrist voters flee to?
Some surely will have gone to Vox. If your defining issue is centralism/anti-separatism then it's a bit like anti-immigration politics. If that's the defining issue the far-right will always be able to outflank you. If you add that to a signal from the sort-of party elite then, a chunk of voters who are primarily concerned about centralism/anti-separatism, or anti-immigration politics in other countries, will decide they'd rather the red in tooth and claw version of that politics.
QuoteThe problem is they would have to gain something tangible every cycle, or risk the fate of the LibDems who were seen as merely Cameron's stooges.
I think the Lib Dem issue was slightly different. As a party they always saw themselves as centrist - they had a liberal wing (the Orange bookers) and a social democratic wing. That was fundamentally different from the perception voters had of them. They achieved their success as an anti-Tory party who attacked Labour over things like making students pay tuition fees and the Iraq war.
They were a centrist party with an anti-establishment, left-wing base. In 2015 their vote collapsed because their centre-right wing basically decided they might as well vote Tory which was run by that nice, broadly liberal Mr Cameron (they've now gone back to the Lib Dems) and anti-Tory voters who also don't want to vote for Labour when they're in power (who've gone to Labour or in some cases the Greens - but on the Remain fringes may have gone back).
The Lib Dems got policy wins though they weren't great at selling them. But the real issue they had was their voters and their party understood "Lib Demness" in a profoundly different way.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
I mean they have agency. They could choose for example to not associate with the far right or the left and just vote on matters as they come (abstain on the initial confidence vote). They made a choice to work with Vox and share stages with Abascal and, as Macron always argued, you can't be a centrist, pro-European force at the European level and work with the far-right at home.
They made a choice to work with Vox, yes. Which is why I stopped voted for them.
But the socialists also made the choice to work with separatists. So I can't really vote for them either.
The only difference Vox and separatists is that Vox has yet to stage a coup d'etat (ERC) or been the political arm of a terrorist organization (Bildu).
And that's where I suspect most centrists are right now.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 13, 2019, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
I mean they have agency. They could choose for example to not associate with the far right or the left and just vote on matters as they come (abstain on the initial confidence vote). They made a choice to work with Vox and share stages with Abascal and, as Macron always argued, you can't be a centrist, pro-European force at the European level and work with the far-right at home.
They made a choice to work with Vox, yes. Which is why I stopped voted for them.
But the socialists also made the choice to work with separatists. So I can't really vote for them either.
The only difference Vox and separatists is that Vox has yet to stage a coup d'etat (ERC) or been the political arm of a terrorist organization (Bildu).
And that's where I suspect most centrists are right now.
The degrees of "working with" are wildly different, though.
Vote share for Spanish parties in the past election according to rent (in centiles)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJUaKRIXsAAW_8y.jpg:large)
So the far right (light green bar) does pretty well among the working class, but gets its best results among the top 10-1%. In Barcelona they got their best results in both the poorest and richest districts. Interesting phenomenon.
That's from "El Diario", right? A good point they make about Vox's good results amongst lower rent groups is that some of their best results were in Murcia and Andalucía, which are both well below the Spanish average.
Quote from: celedhring on November 14, 2019, 04:28:27 AM
Vote share for Spanish parties in the past election according to rent (in centiles)
So the far right (light green bar) does pretty well among the working class, but gets its best results among the top 10-1%. In Barcelona they got their best results in both the poorest and richest districts. Interesting phenomenon.
That grey line looked interesting, I almost asked what kind of party "otros" is. :D
Quote from: Maladict on November 14, 2019, 08:07:15 AM
Quote from: celedhring on November 14, 2019, 04:28:27 AM
Vote share for Spanish parties in the past election according to rent (in centiles)
So the far right (light green bar) does pretty well among the working class, but gets its best results among the top 10-1%. In Barcelona they got their best results in both the poorest and richest districts. Interesting phenomenon.
That grey line looked interesting, I almost asked what kind of party "otros" is. :D
Most of the parties in the "others" category are regional parties, with a predominance of basque/catalan nationalists. Those do traditionally get a larger share of the vote among upper middle class.
Quote from: celedhring on November 14, 2019, 10:05:16 AM
Quote from: Maladict on November 14, 2019, 08:07:15 AM
Quote from: celedhring on November 14, 2019, 04:28:27 AM
Vote share for Spanish parties in the past election according to rent (in centiles)
So the far right (light green bar) does pretty well among the working class, but gets its best results among the top 10-1%. In Barcelona they got their best results in both the poorest and richest districts. Interesting phenomenon.
That grey line looked interesting, I almost asked what kind of party "otros" is. :D
Most of the parties in the "others" category are regional parties, with a predominance of basque/catalan nationalists. Those do traditionally get a larger share of the vote among upper middle class.
And are richer regions as well.
Just heard a chat about the Spanish election in comparison with ours.
One comparison was the likelihood of voters responding to politicians basically going for a clarifying election, only to get the voters to actually deepen the deadlock :lol: :ph34r:
Edit: They noted the differences with Scotland/Catalonia, but also that the Lib Dems could, in theory, be the centrist kingmakers - but they've already said they won't work with the Tories over Brexit or with Labour over Corbyn.
Some documents that were impounded during an anti-corruption raid show that the Catalan government sent feelers to Moscow offering to recognize the annexation of Crimea if Russia recognized the Catalan Republic. I'm not sure that was a persuassive bargain...
Looks like the socdems will open talks this week with the Catalan Left to get their support. ERC wants "negotations for a political solution to the catalan conflict" although they have left out their usual independence dog whistles from their formal petition, so there's potentially flexibility there.
Both parties will be crushed by their right wing opposition if they enter any kind of deal/talks. And I'm personally still unsure about the possiblity of having good faith talks with separatists. Any extra power devolved to the Generalitat will be used in a sectarian way, like they have been doing the past 20 years.
So, we're getting another Catalan election! The 5th in 10 years, after years of legislative paralysis because of the independence push.
President Torra is about to be disqualified from office for refusing to remove political messaging from the facades of Catalan government buildings during a political campaign (this is banned by our election law), so he'll pull off a "you're not firing me, I quit!" move before the courts hand down the ruling. He wanted his coalition partners to support him and not recognize the ruling in order to allow him to stay on, which is simply impossible to do on a practical level (anything he signed as president would be void de iure unless he really wants to put the entire Catalan administration outside the law, which they didn't dare to do when they passed the UDI), but good political theater.
His coalition partners have just signed a deal with the Spanish Socialists to start a round of talks (which I can tell you beforehand that will lead nowhere) in exchange of parlamentiary support in Madrid, so he wants to paint them as dirty collaborationists.
I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 08:32:47 AM
I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.
So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?
The two largest independence parties (ERC and JxC, which are essentially SocDems and Conservatives) hate each others' guts to a hilarious degree (although it's less funny when you're governed by them). They are constantly undermining each other, trying to show each other up as a traitor to the cause, and so on. The last 2 years since direct rule was terminated have been a gigantic show of political theater where nothing has been done. We are still using the 2017 budget, which is calamitously outdated and that's putting a lot of pressure on public services. They say they want to pass a budget before calling the election, but we'll see.
ERC was the more radical when the referendum happened, but since then Puigdemont purged the old guard (which was moderate) from the conservative nationalists, and ERC has timidly turned to realism (hence the deal with the Socialists).
The whole referendum crisis can easily be read as a game of political chicken between both parties until the locomotive ultimately steamrolled over them.
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 08:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 08:32:47 AM
I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.
So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?
It does, I support their independence. :P
And here I hoped you would be for a Dual Monarchy solution :P
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 08:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 08:32:47 AM
I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.
So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?
It does, I support their independence. :P
Any particular reason why?
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:02:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 08:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 08:32:47 AM
I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.
So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?
It does, I support their independence. :P
Any particular reason why?
I readily admit I have never bothered to find out the finer details, so I don't feel strongly about it. But having accepted their "they are the ones subsidising the rest of Spain" argument, it felt unfair to keep them in if they want out.
Madrid pays more into the public treasury than Catalonia does.
Anyway, "I don't want to share my wealth with the paupers" has never sounded too compelling to me. Which is why they have tried to rebrand the movement in the 2010s. Still the whole "we want to be able to make a better society for Catalans" still sounds like dog whistling for "We want to keep all our money".
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
I support Catalan independence. It will be nice to have those morans outside the EU.
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.
If you admit ignorance on the topic, why do you accept their argument?
The Wilsonian legacy of being sexually aroused by ethnically pure countries.
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:36:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.
If you admit ignorance on the topic, why do you accept their argument?
I like FC Barcelona and I HATE HATE HATE Real Madrid. :P
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 11:38:51 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:36:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.
If you admit ignorance on the topic, why do you accept their argument?
I like FC Barcelona and I HATE HATE HATE Real Madrid. :P
Just as well as me, and surely much less than cel, and we don't support independence because of that. :P
Well, from my distant vantage point it was reason enough. :D
Well, your lulz are other people's lives, so take it as a learning opportunity.
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:36:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.
If you admit ignorance on the topic, why do you accept their argument?
I don't necessarily accept their arguments, but I feel like they should have the right to make that decision themselves.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 01:14:37 PM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:36:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 29, 2020, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on January 29, 2020, 11:23:08 AM
It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.
But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.
If you admit ignorance on the topic, why do you accept their argument?
I don't necessarily accept their arguments, but I feel like they should have the right to make that decision themselves.
Are we talking when they are given all the facts?
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 01:14:37 PM
I don't necessarily accept their arguments, but I feel like they should have the right to make that decision themselves.
Well they have never had majority support in any election but they continue to act as if they do. They don't really respect the opinions of all the citizens of Catalonia because I suspect they only consider their supporters to be real Catalonians.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 01:14:37 PM
I don't necessarily accept their arguments, but I feel like they should have the right to make that decision themselves.
So not even the Brexit debacle has persuaded you against the dangers of emotionally-fuelled referenda?
And why just themselves? Such a decision would directly affect me as well. Why shouldn't I get a vote?
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2020, 01:21:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 01:14:37 PM
I don't necessarily accept their arguments, but I feel like they should have the right to make that decision themselves.
Well they have never had majority support in any election but they continue to act as if they do. They don't really respect the opinions of all the citizens of Catalonia because I suspect they only consider their supporters to be real Catalonians.
They've never had the opportunity to hold a definitive vote on the subject.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 02:13:27 PM
They've never had the opportunity to hold a definitive vote on the subject.
They do it every election. The Separatist parties have never won a majority of the votes.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2020, 01:55:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 01:14:37 PM
I don't necessarily accept their arguments, but I feel like they should have the right to make that decision themselves.
So not even the Brexit debacle has persuaded you against the dangers of emotionally-fuelled referenda?
And why just themselves? Such a decision would directly affect me as well. Why shouldn't I get a vote?
Even after the Brexit debacle, a small majority of Britons continue to support Brexit. Sometimes people want to make an emotional decision, and they have that right to do so.
The entirety of Spain would have a say in the details of a theoretical Catalan independence, but we've long recognized the right to national self-determination. Just because you're affected if your wife leaves you, that doesn't meant you get a say in her decision.
I don't recognize that right. Group rights don't exist.
If I did I would have to admit the Confederacy was right because the people they were enslaving were a minority who would not have been able to outvote the majority. But I do not recognize that right. Individuals have rights, not national groups. The only way I personally would support Catalonia is if they could demonstrate that the individual rights of Catalonians were being abused in some way by the current Spanish state. That have not done that.
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2020, 02:43:53 PM
I don't recognize that right. Group rights don't exist.
If I did I would have to admit the Confederacy was right because the people they were enslaving were a minority who would not have been able to outvote the majority. But I do not recognize that right. Individuals have rights, not national groups. The only way I personally would support Catalonia is if they could demonstrate that the individual rights of Catalonians were being abused in some way by the current Spanish state. That have not done that.
But, but, what about the ethnic purity of citizens?
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2020, 02:15:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 02:13:27 PM
They've never had the opportunity to hold a definitive vote on the subject.
They do it every election. The Separatist parties have never won a majority of the votes.
Elections are tricky, and never correspond precisely with people stances on the issues.
The only way to settle the issue of independence, at least for a generation or more, is to hold a referendum with a clear question.
And Valmy, when you become President of the World, what you do and do not recognize will matter. In the here and now, the right to self-determination is recognized in the UN Charter and many other international agreements. Many, many countries have gained independence after a referendum.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 02:51:19 PM
And Valmy, when you become President of the World, what you do and do not recognize will matter. In the here and now, the right to self-determination is recognized in the UN Charter and many other international agreements. Many, many countries have gained independence after a referendum.
So you would support a majority declaring independence to preserve the enslavement of a minority? That is a human right? Rights for 50.00001%, none for 49.999999%. I mean what a bankrupt and absurd notion of what rights are.
Anyway the UN Charter established those principles in the context of colonialism where individual rights were at stake, not this kind of first world nonsense.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 02:51:19 PM...UN Charter...
The UN Charter also says fundamental freedoms should be protected against discrimination. So which is it? Am I allowed or not to have a vote on my future because I don't speak Catalan? What about Valencians? Can they vote then?
And who decides what constitutes "peoples" that have access to self-determination? Catalans of course? What about ... Aranese? What about those who live in Barcelona? Can they have their own state? What about Badalona? Can Salou ascend to its rightful place as Zaragoza's beach? We'd need a corridor of some sort though...
Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2020, 03:08:09 PM
We'd need a corridor of some sort though...
Make a 20 mile long tunnel.
Quote from: Valmy on January 29, 2020, 03:03:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 02:51:19 PM
And Valmy, when you become President of the World, what you do and do not recognize will matter. In the here and now, the right to self-determination is recognized in the UN Charter and many other international agreements. Many, many countries have gained independence after a referendum.
So you would support a majority declaring independence to preserve the enslavement of a minority? That is a human right? Rights for 50.00001%, none for 49.999999%. I mean what a bankrupt and absurd notion of what rights are.
Anyway the UN Charter established those principles in the context of colonialism where individual rights were at stake, not this kind of first world nonsense.
US Civil war - well first of all it's not like they held a referendum in the first place.
Second of all they wouldn't have given blacks the vote anyways.
Third of all given the evils of slavery other countries may well have been justified in invading the CSA anyways to abolish the practice. The mid 19th century British had no compunction about meddling in other countries to end slavery.
And no, the UN wasn't in the context of colonialism. It was in the context of the continuation of the League of Nations which saw the independence of a great many nations in Europe. What do you have against the independence of Poland Valmy!
Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2020, 03:08:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 02:51:19 PM...UN Charter...
The UN Charter also says fundamental freedoms should be protected against discrimination. So which is it? Am I allowed or not to have a vote on my future because I don't speak Catalan? What about Valencians? Can they vote then?
And who decides what constitutes "peoples" that have access to self-determination? Catalans of course? What about ... Aranese? What about those who live in Barcelona? Can they have their own state? What about Badalona? Can Salou ascend to its rightful place as Zaragoza's beach? We'd need a corridor of some sort though...
It's as if you think these issues have never come up before in any of the dozens of independence votes that have been held around the world!
People are a "nation" when enough of them think of themselves as a nation. I mean you see fringe independence movements all around the world (*waves at Wexit*), but if they don't have any meaningful support they can be ignored.
All people in any proposed independent state get a vote, whether or not they speak a different language. Valencians don't see themselves as Catalans (says I after having a Valencian live with us for 10 months) and don't consider themselves as part of Catalonia, so no they don't get to vote.
Can really small regions vote for independence? Case by case basis. Countries as small as Singapore or East Timor went independent - in both cases they had significantly different histories and even cultures than the larger country.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 03:21:45 PM
It's as if you think these issues have never come up before ...
Quite the contrary. I've lived this shit for 40 years, watching the same tired arguments excusing anything, from acting like a jerk to lesser beings to downright murdering little kids. I'm immune to such childish arguments by now.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2020, 03:51:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 03:21:45 PM
It's as if you think these issues have never come up before ...
Quite the contrary. I've lived this shit for 40 years, watching the same tired arguments excusing anything, from acting like a jerk to lesser beings to downright murdering little kids. I'm immune to such childish arguments by now.
But that's the thing - for 40 years (or even longer) you haven't allowed Catalans to have a vote. Spain's answer has always been "nope, not allowed". Which is why the issue has dragged on for so long!
One time only. Clear question "Should Catalonia be independent". Make it clear what that would and would not look like (terms have to be negotiated, no UDI, no automatic accession into the EU). Have a fair election campaign with both Yes and No given free opportunity.
If they vote "No", then the issue us over.
If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?
Oh dear Lord. I don't even know where to begin.
Why should they be allowed to vote to break up a country? It should require the consent of the entire country, the region people live in isn't owned by a simple majority of its inhabitants, it's part of the whole of Spain.
While not a perfect proxy, the U.S. Constitution allows for parts of states to break apart and form new states, it generally requires the consent of the original state, the inhabitants of what will become the new state, and the Congress. That's imo a pretty good model.
I'm just here to be happy that BB is arguing for recognizing independence referendums. :yeah:
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 29, 2020, 05:04:49 PM
I'm just here to be happy that BB is arguing for recognizing independence referendums. :yeah:
Hey man - the Clarity Act and the SCC Reference re: Quebec succession have been the last of the land for over 20 years now. :contract:
Canada would have a duty to negotiate fairly with Quebec on terms of independence if a majority (SCC says "clear majority") vote for succession on a fairly worded, fairly run referendum campaign.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 29, 2020, 04:17:48 PM
While not a perfect proxy, the U.S. Constitution allows for parts of states to break apart and form new states, it generally requires the consent of the original state, the inhabitants of what will become the new state, and the Congress. That's imo a pretty good model.
I think of all of the items in the U.S. Constitution that would the least chance of ever happening, it is the successful accomplishment of all of those three benchmarks. More difficult than a Constitutional amendment I think.
And no, I don't count West Virginia. Maine was closer, but still a rather unique case as well.
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 05:20:30 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 29, 2020, 05:04:49 PM
I'm just here to be happy that BB is arguing for recognizing independence referendums. :yeah:
Hey man - the Clarity Act and the SCC Reference re: Quebec succession have been the last of the land for over 20 years now. :contract:
Canada would have a duty to negotiate fairly with Quebec on terms of independence if a majority (SCC says "clear majority") vote for succession on a fairly worded, fairly run referendum campaign.
The Federal government will never negotiate in good faith.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 29, 2020, 04:16:55 PM
Why should they be allowed to vote to break up a country? It should require the consent of the entire country, the region people live in isn't owned by a simple majority of its inhabitants, it's part of the whole of Spain.
Yeah, exactly like in a marriage. A woman should never be allowed to break the couple, it should be consented by both parties. That's the way to do things, for any split. Like, the US, they did ask Britain before breaking up the empire and invading the other colonies. :)
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 04:13:03 PM
If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?
You can't have sovereignty, or rule of law, or human right if a subfaction can decide to nullify law and form a new sovereign entity.
Quote from: viper37 on January 29, 2020, 08:43:56 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 29, 2020, 04:16:55 PM
Why should they be allowed to vote to break up a country? It should require the consent of the entire country, the region people live in isn't owned by a simple majority of its inhabitants, it's part of the whole of Spain.
Yeah, exactly like in a marriage. A woman should never be allowed to break the couple, it should be consented by both parties. That's the way to do things, for any split. Like, the US, they did ask Britain before breaking up the empire and invading the other colonies. :)
I'm not saying you can't declare civil war—our CSA tried. But you have to be able to win.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 29, 2020, 07:27:47 PM
The Federal government will never negotiate in good faith.
Only one way to find out.
Quote from: chipwich on January 29, 2020, 08:59:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 04:13:03 PM
If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?
You can't have sovereignty, or rule of law, or human right if a subfaction can decide to nullify law and form a new sovereign entity.
Why? There's been lots of examples of countries getting their independence.
BB hates the US pledge of allegiance. "indivisible"
:(
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 12:23:35 PM
If they vote "No", then the issue us over.
If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?
Well this is clearly not true, a close vote will only make the situation worse. And it would almost certainly be close. Not everywhere has the same population dynamics as Quebec.
Besides what happens if part of Catalonia has a independence majority and the other part has a stay majority...is one of those political entities going to not have "Self-determination" in this case?
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2020, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 12:23:35 PM
If they vote "No", then the issue us over.
If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?
Well this is clearly not true, a close vote will only make the situation worse.
Quebec 1995 referendum the "No" side won 50.58% to 49.42%. That was about as close as they come.
There's never been another referendum.
Brexit was quite close as well. Brexit is happening. A majority is a majority
So.... is this a good time to look for a house in Barcelona.... or a bad time? :unsure:
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 12:49:30 PM
Quebec 1995 referendum the "No" side won 50.58% to 49.42%. That was about as close as they come.
There's never been another referendum.
Brexit was quite close as well. Brexit is happening. A majority is a majority
And yet The Tories refused to consider a second referendum to reconsider Brexit. A majority only works when it works for your side.
Not all majorities are equal - it's a lot easier to get assemble a majority if you get multiple attempts, can pick your timing and can deny the right to the opposition to schedule their own counter-referendum.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 30, 2020, 01:16:33 PM
And yet The Tories refused to consider a second referendum to reconsider Brexit. A majority only works when it works for your side.
Not all majorities are equal - it's a lot easier to get assemble a majority if you get multiple attempts, can pick your timing and can deny the right to the opposition to schedule their own counter-referendum.
That's why what I'm advocating for isn't the Catalan's just running their own referendum (which they tried to do), but one that would be sanctioned by Madrid, with a clear question, a mutually agreed-to date, and fair opportunity for both Yes and No sides to campaign. And that would be one time only (or at least once in a generation only).
Quote from: merithyn on January 30, 2020, 01:14:03 PM
So.... is this a good time to look for a house in Barcelona.... or a bad time? :unsure:
As long as you're willing to grossly overpay for what you'll get it's as good a time as any.
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 12:49:30 PM
Quebec 1995 referendum the "No" side won 50.58% to 49.42%. That was about as close as they come.
There's never been another referendum.
Yes...but only because the independence movement knew time was against them and they were unlikely to win another referendum, 1995 was their last chance. That dynamic might not exist in Catalonia.
If Quebec even thought for a minute the support for independence was rising again they would try again.
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 01:19:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 30, 2020, 01:16:33 PM
And yet The Tories refused to consider a second referendum to reconsider Brexit. A majority only works when it works for your side.
Not all majorities are equal - it's a lot easier to get assemble a majority if you get multiple attempts, can pick your timing and can deny the right to the opposition to schedule their own counter-referendum.
That's why what I'm advocating for isn't the Catalan's just running their own referendum (which they tried to do), but one that would be sanctioned by Madrid, with a clear question, a mutually agreed-to date, and fair opportunity for both Yes and No sides to campaign. And that would be one time only (or at least once in a generation only).
None of that makes any sense.
You are delusional if you think a No in yet another referendum would give fanatics pause. It took them just 3 years, not exactly a generation, to repeat the last failed attempt.
There has been absolutely no impediment for separatist propaganda since Franco died. Separatists directly control police, media and education. Nothing stopping their message of hate. Which is kind of why we find ourselves here in the first place.
As for "Madrid", the central government cannot sanction unconstitutional acts. You'd think a lawyer would understand the concept...
Quote from: Iormlund on January 30, 2020, 01:39:40 PM
You are delusional if you think a No in yet another referendum would give fanatics pause. It took them just 3 years, not exactly a generation, to repeat the last failed attempt.
There has been absolutely no impediment for separatist propaganda since Franco died. Separatists directly control police, media and education. Nothing stopping their message of hate. Which is kind of why we find ourselves here in the first place.
As for "Madrid", the central government cannot sanction unconstitutional acts. You'd think a lawyer would understand the concept...
Well I guess I should also throw out there, BB, that people in Quebec are just more reasonable and respect rule of law and such than most nationalists.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 30, 2020, 01:39:40 PM
None of that makes any sense.
You are delusional if you think a No in yet another referendum would give fanatics pause. It took them just 3 years, not exactly a generation, to repeat the last failed attempt.
There has been absolutely no impediment for separatist propaganda since Franco died. Separatists directly control police, media and education. Nothing stopping their message of hate. Which is kind of why we find ourselves here in the first place.
As for "Madrid", the central government cannot sanction unconstitutional acts. You'd think a lawyer would understand the concept...
Their "last failed attempt" was also declared illegal, and also boycotted by unionists. There's never been a referendum sanctioned by Spain and in which both sides participated.
I'd be surprised if the Spanish constitution banned referendums. I'm advocating for the Canadian model here - a referendum doesn't immediately lead to independence, rather it leads to negotiations. The Spanish government doesn't agree to independence without conditions - but if there is a "yes" vote, commits to holding good faith negotiations which would amend the constitution to allow Catalan independence.
Quote from: merithyn on January 30, 2020, 01:14:03 PM
So.... is this a good time to look for a house in Barcelona.... or a bad time? :unsure:
Houses will be cheaper when or if independence becomes a reality. :P
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 12:23:35 PM
Quote from: chipwich on January 29, 2020, 08:59:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 29, 2020, 04:13:03 PM
If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?
You can't have sovereignty, or rule of law, or human right if a subfaction can decide to nullify law and form a new sovereign entity.
Why? There's been lots of examples of countries getting their independence.
At the expense of the incumbent county's sovereignty and the rights of it's citizens.
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 01:56:56 PM
I'd be surprised if the Spanish constitution banned referendums. I'm advocating for the Canadian model here - a referendum doesn't immediately lead to independence, rather it leads to
Civilized countries don't negotiate their citizens rights to a secessionist enemy.
We are not the enemy.
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 01:56:56 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on January 30, 2020, 01:39:40 PM
None of that makes any sense.
You are delusional if you think a No in yet another referendum would give fanatics pause. It took them just 3 years, not exactly a generation, to repeat the last failed attempt.
There has been absolutely no impediment for separatist propaganda since Franco died. Separatists directly control police, media and education. Nothing stopping their message of hate. Which is kind of why we find ourselves here in the first place.
As for "Madrid", the central government cannot sanction unconstitutional acts. You'd think a lawyer would understand the concept...
Their "last failed attempt" was also declared illegal, and also boycotted by unionists.
I know you are the posterboy of lawful-neutral, but sweet Jesus. When emotions are involved nobody gives a fuck about official sanction. Only "winning" matters. Take a look at the world around you.
Quote
I'd be surprised if the Spanish constitution banned referendums. I'm advocating for the Canadian model here - a referendum doesn't immediately lead to independence, rather it leads to negotiations. The Spanish government doesn't agree to independence without conditions - but if there is a "yes" vote, commits to holding good faith negotiations which would amend the constitution to allow Catalan independence.
Art. II makes the State indivisible.
Reforming core articles such as that one is beyond the power of any government (for good reason). First of all you need 2/3rds majority in Parliament. The current government would be lucky to get past 1/3rd.
Secondly, invoking the powers to reform said articles implies immediate dissolution of Parliament. The next Parliament will also have to pass the reform, again by 2/3rds majority.
And finally it will have to be approved by referendum in the whole of Spain.
So yeah, "Madrid" (whoever you think that is) cannot do anything like you propose. It's out of the question.
Enacting laws that compel a constitutonal reform has also been deemed unconstitutional in the past. If a law needs a Constitutonal reform in order to be fully carried out, you have to do that first. So the Clarity Act wouldn't be possible.
The only possible referendum would be a non-binding one, which seems kind of a bad idea.
Quote from: celedhring on January 30, 2020, 04:44:52 PM
The only possible referendum would be a non-binding one, which seems kind of a bad idea.
Yeah - the whole point of the matter is that it is binding, so people have to think long and hard about it. Non-binding opens the door to people voting "Yes" just to "send a message".
I think a lot of you frankly, filthy secessionists are monstrous and ignore basic tenets of democracy.
Any democratic country has as its founding principle at this point in history, preservation of liberty. To allow sub-national, arbitrarily defined, geographic polities to have simple majority-vote "secessions", in which every citizen of the vote who voted to stay is forced out of their country and government of birth, is insane. Especially since once the secessionists are no longer part of the parent country, the parent country can make no guarantees as to the rights and democratic freedoms of its former citizens.
I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 30, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
I think a lot of you frankly, filthy secessionists are monstrous and ignore basic tenets of democracy.
Any democratic country has as its founding principle at this point in history, preservation of liberty. To allow sub-national, arbitrarily defined, geographic polities to have simple majority-vote "secessions", in which every citizen of the vote who voted to stay is forced out of their country and government of birth, is insane. Especially since once the secessionists are no longer part of the parent country, the parent country can make no guarantees as to the rights and democratic freedoms of its former citizens.
I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.
What about non simple majority-vote secession? What if there is overwhelming support of, say, 90 percent of the population?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 30, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.
I believe the same thing about forcing people to remain in a country where they feel disrespected by the central authority.
But it's ok, you believe South Sudan belong with North Sudan, no matter how many dead people there are, so, everything's fine, just like in Sebrenica :)
Quote from: viper37 on January 31, 2020, 06:26:19 PM
I believe the same thing about forcing people to remain in a country where they feel disrespected by the central authority.
But it's ok, you believe South Sudan belong with North Sudan, no matter how many dead people there are, so, everything's fine, just like in Sebrenica :)
South Sudan is just a little bit different than "not feeling respected" :bleeding:
Quote from: viper37 on January 31, 2020, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 30, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.
I believe the same thing about forcing people to remain in a country where they feel disrespected by the central authority.
But it's ok, you believe South Sudan belong with North Sudan, no matter how many dead people there are, so, everything's fine, just like in Sebrenica :)
You think North Sudan is a modern, Western democracy?
Quote from: viper37 on January 31, 2020, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 30, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.
I believe the same thing about forcing people to remain in a country where they feel disrespected by the central authority.
But it's ok, you believe South Sudan belong with North Sudan, no matter how many dead people there are, so, everything's fine, just like in Sebrenica :)
You're basically Donald Trump and the people who support him. "We refuse to associate with anyone we disagree with." This is the mentality that is destroying the West.
What can you do? Nationalism in disease whether it shows up in the US or Spain or Quebec.
In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed. There is no such backbone to be found in Western countries these days.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 31, 2020, 07:48:39 PM
In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed.
^_^
Interestingly, I just found out that there is something called the Vienna Convention on Succession, which apparently tries to lay out rules for succession. But there's only a few states that are parties to it--basically Brazil, Ukraine, a few African nations, former parts of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, and some dots on the map.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 31, 2020, 07:48:39 PM
In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed. There is no such backbone to be found in Western countries these days.
yes, and the net result is you now have a fracturer country and an increasingly authoritarian country thanks to your former Secessionist brethren who have now won the war.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 31, 2020, 07:21:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 31, 2020, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 30, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.
I believe the same thing about forcing people to remain in a country where they feel disrespected by the central authority.
But it's ok, you believe South Sudan belong with North Sudan, no matter how many dead people there are, so, everything's fine, just like in Sebrenica :)
You're basically Donald Trump and the people who support him. "We refuse to associate with anyone we disagree with." This is the mentality that is destroying the West.
No, really not.
I just believe that at some point, there are irreconciable differences. When maintaining a partnership means one side must erase itself to please the other, things aren't working out and it's best for both that they split their union.
You believe killing 1 in 30 people of your countrymen to preserve a Union is an acceptable loss and you wish for others to enforce your position. It's ok, we just disagree on the value of human life.
Quote from: viper37 on February 06, 2020, 06:44:35 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on January 31, 2020, 07:48:39 PM
In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed. There is no such backbone to be found in Western countries these days.
yes, and the net result is you now have a fracturer country and an increasingly authoritarian country thanks to your former Secessionist brethren who have now won the war.
:rolleyes:
Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?).
Wait, the Confederates started the war.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 06, 2020, 08:11:27 PM
Wait, the Confederates started the war.
Yes well but they did it for nationalism. By not immediately capitulating the Union showed itself to be the real aggressor.
QuoteYou believe killing 1 in 30 people of your countrymen to preserve a Union is an acceptable loss and you wish for others to enforce your position. It's ok, we just disagree on the value of human life.
I believe protecting the rights and dignity of individuals against the tyranny of a majority is worth that, yes.
Quote from: dps on February 06, 2020, 07:17:39 PM
Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation
Brazil did not need a civil war to end slavery based on the colour of the skin, afaik. And blacks weren't prevented from voting in many places for close to a century after that.
Quote(if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?).
Good one. But I generally frown upon the use of force against the free exercise of democracy.
People want to leave, so be it. Let them pack and leave the Union.
The UK sat down with Scotland to negotiate the terms of a referendum. The UK than sat down with the EU to negotiate the term of its leave.
Maybe France and Germany should have just invaded the UK instead? That would have been far more productive.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2020, 08:32:31 PM
I believe protecting the rights and dignity of individuals against the tyranny of a majority is worth that, yes.
And the Jim Crow laws fit right in there? Along with the lynchings? I'm a little bit fuzzy about the Federal intervention in "State's rights" there, would you mind to enlighten me, please?
Look, the North could have sat with the South and negotiated a secession. That wasn't the way of thinking anywhere back then, but they could have done it anyway. Instead, they mobilized the army, ready for an invasion of the South, prompted more States to secede, and the Southerners, dumb fuck as they were, marched right into the trap and fired on Fort Sumter giving Lincoln a pretext to try and invade the South to bring them back into the Union as quickly as possible. If the war had truly been fought, right from the beginning to free the slaves and preserve human dignity, Lincoln would have announced it right from the start, not use some pretext about preserving the Union.
This does not change the fact that the South fought to preserve slavery, but the North had to wait until a really significant victory to emancipate the slaves so as to rally public opinion behind the cause, when victory was nearly a certainty in public opinion. Until then, most Northerners likely felt like Otto that it was totally justified to invade the South to bring back the seceding States into the Union and not to free some negroes.
Viper, just stop. Stop while you are ahead. I know it doesn't look like you are ahead but everything you just posted sent you back further and further. You are rehashing modern day pro-confederate talking and... Actually I have no idea why are you doing that. Pretty much anyone here can tear those arguments in to shreds including people who have absolutely no knowledge of American history.
Quote from: dps on February 06, 2020, 07:17:39 PM
Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?).
Do you wish that the chattel slave owners of 1776 had failed in their secession?
Quote from: The Brain on February 07, 2020, 02:21:54 AM
Quote from: dps on February 06, 2020, 07:17:39 PM
Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?
Do you wish that the chattel slave owners of 1776 had failed in their secession?
They didn't secede to preserve slavery. They seceded to avoid paying taxes. I don't much like taxes so I'm OK with that.
OK, that's an extreme oversimplification, but whatever.
Quote from: dps on February 07, 2020, 02:26:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on February 07, 2020, 02:21:54 AM
Quote from: dps on February 06, 2020, 07:17:39 PM
Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?
Do you wish that the chattel slave owners of 1776 had failed in their secession?
They didn't secede to preserve slavery. They seceded to avoid paying taxes. I don't much like taxes so I'm OK with that.
OK, that's an extreme oversimplification, but whatever.
30 extra years of slavery for millions of people = WORTH IT CAUSE TAXES SUCXX0RS
NB: I'm mostly just playing around. Mostly.
Gotta say it had been long since we got an ACW derail at Languish.
Talks between Madrid and Barcelona set to start this month, although I don't think they will go anywhere. Madrid will probably offer additional devolution and reduced jail time for the leaders of the October 2017 crisis via law reform, but separatist parties are not yet at the point where they can give up a referendum in the short-mid term without facing the ire of their base. We also have (another) Catalan election this summer so there won't be a place for political realism until after that.
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2020, 01:11:22 AM
And the Jim Crow laws fit right in there? Along with the lynchings? I'm a little bit fuzzy about the Federal intervention in "State's rights" there, would you mind to enlighten me, please?
Care to enlighten me how these abuses help your cause? Because they continue to show how the secessionist movement was about abusing human rights. It took the Feds to eventually stop these things after all.
QuoteLook, the North could have sat with the South and negotiated a secession. That wasn't the way of thinking anywhere back then, but they could have done it anyway. Instead, they mobilized the army, ready for an invasion of the South, prompted more States to secede, and the Southerners, dumb fuck as they were, marched right into the trap and fired on Fort Sumter giving Lincoln a pretext to try and invade the South to bring them back into the Union as quickly as possible.
You have the order of events entirely wrong. I am not sure why you are lying and misrepresenting issues here. There was no army to mobilize and no volunteers were called until after Fort Sumter was fired upon. So you are lying, no army was mobilized to invade the South. The South could have sat with the North and negotiated secession but it was important to them to assert themselves by grabbing all federal land through force as soon as possible, Sumter was only at the very end of this. Lincoln was not even in office for most of the seizures.
QuoteIf the war had truly been fought, right from the beginning to free the slaves and preserve human dignity, Lincoln would have announced it right from the start, not use some pretext about preserving the Union.
You are leaving lots of things out here aren't you? The whole reason Lincoln's Republican Party even existed was to stop the spread of slavery and it was on that point that secession happened in the first place. It was already announced. You are jumping all over the pro-slavery talking points that slavery was not the cause of the war, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
QuoteThis does not change the fact that the South fought to preserve slavery, but the North had to wait until a really significant victory to emancipate the slaves so as to rally public opinion behind the cause, when victory was nearly a certainty in public opinion.
This is wrong, slaves were emancipated as "contraband" almost immediately and just because the strategy was not to just emancipate all the slaves does not mean the war did not always have a strong anti-slavery cause to it.
QuoteUntil then, most Northerners likely felt like Otto that it was totally justified to invade the South to bring back the seceding States into the Union and not to free some negroes.
Because they felt like their republic was being hijacked by a cabal of aristocratic anti-democratic slave owners trying to preserve their lordly status at the expense of everybody else, the slave-power conspiracy theory, and had fired on the American Flag to display their hatred for the US and its values. I mean I guess I could accept your version if I just washed my brain of everything that had happened and everything that had been said between 1763 and 1861.
Quote from: The Brain on February 07, 2020, 02:32:06 AM
30 extra years of slavery for millions of people = WORTH IT CAUSE TAXES SUCXX0RS
NB: I'm mostly just playing around. Mostly.
It wasn't the taxes. It was what the taxes represented.
Quote from: celedhring on February 07, 2020, 03:41:42 AM
Gotta say it had been long since we got an ACW derail at Languish.
Talks between Madrid and Barcelona set to start this month, although I don't think they will go anywhere. Madrid will probably offer additional devolution and reduced jail time for the leaders of the October 2017 crisis via law reform, but separatist parties are not yet at the point where they can give up a referendum in the short-mid term without facing the ire of their base. We also have (another) Catalan election this summer so there won't be a place for political realism until after that.
Previous elections did not do that so I don't see how this one will.
Quote from: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 09:54:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on February 07, 2020, 02:32:06 AM
30 extra years of slavery for millions of people = WORTH IT CAUSE TAXES SUCXX0RS
NB: I'm mostly just playing around. Mostly.
It wasn't the taxes. It was what the taxes represented.
It was mercantilism. The patriots made the tax argument because the mercantilism argument was too complex to be a popular cause.
Quote from: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 09:54:51 AM
Quote from: The Brain on February 07, 2020, 02:32:06 AM
30 extra years of slavery for millions of people = WORTH IT CAUSE TAXES SUCXX0RS
NB: I'm mostly just playing around. Mostly.
It wasn't the taxes. It was what the taxes represented.
Yeah, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek there.
Quote from: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 09:56:50 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 07, 2020, 03:41:42 AM
Gotta say it had been long since we got an ACW derail at Languish.
Talks between Madrid and Barcelona set to start this month, although I don't think they will go anywhere. Madrid will probably offer additional devolution and reduced jail time for the leaders of the October 2017 crisis via law reform, but separatist parties are not yet at the point where they can give up a referendum in the short-mid term without facing the ire of their base. We also have (another) Catalan election this summer so there won't be a place for political realism until after that.
Previous elections did not do that so I don't see how this one will.
Right now campaigning will prevent any kind of sensible approach from happening. The incumbent separatist party is already saying they won't sit at the table unless there's "international mediation" :lol:. After the election... I guess it depends on whether ERC (who at least appear to be embracing pragmatism) wins out versus the more radical separatist parties (CUP and JxCAT). Most polls show a close race within the separatist camp (and the same separatist/unionist split we currently have) so I presume we'll get another deadlock and the thing will just drag on. I want to think at some point people will get tired of banging their head against the wall, but I guess I'm too optimistic. It's like the last seasons of Lost.
Quote from: Valmy on February 07, 2020, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2020, 01:11:22 AM
And the Jim Crow laws fit right in there? Along with the lynchings? I'm a little bit fuzzy about the Federal intervention in "State's rights" there, would you mind to enlighten me, please?
Care to enlighten me how these abuses help your cause? Because they continue to show how the secessionist movement was about abusing human rights. It took the Feds to eventually stop these things after all.
.
It shows how little the Unionist care about human dignity. Before and after the Civil War, the US had no qualms about moving indians into reservations and stealing their territory. I don't see how that is respectful of human dignity in any way.
The Northerners wanted their union preserved and that's the main reason they answered Lincoln's call for volunteers.
Quote from: celedhring on February 07, 2020, 03:41:42 AM
Talks between Madrid and Barcelona set to start this month, although I don't think they will go anywhere. Madrid will probably offer additional devolution and reduced jail time for the leaders of the October 2017 crisis via law reform, but separatist parties are not yet at the point where they can give up a referendum in the short-mid term without facing the ire of their base. We also have (another) Catalan election this summer so there won't be a place for political realism until after that.
that's at least a start toward something. Much more productive than sending the police/army to violently arrest people exercising their democratic rights.
If you don't see a difference between not being terribly concerned with late 20 century/early 21 century ideas about human dignity and being willing to fight to preserve the institution of chattel slavery, I don't think you are going to find much common ground with many posters here. The Union didn't have to be perfect to be better than the Confederacy.
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2020, 08:12:49 PM
It shows how little the Unionist care about human dignity. Before and after the Civil War, the US had no qualms about moving indians into reservations and stealing their territory.
The States that formed the Confederacy were pretty instrumental in doing that as well. But that has nothing to do with the reasons behind the war. Shows how much secessionists care about human dignity that they would try to twist that around for their own purposes.
Quotedon't see how that is respectful of human dignity in any way.
Ok and if the Confederacy was seceding for that reason that would paint the whole thing in a different light. But that had nothing to do with it.
QuoteThe Northerners wanted their union preserved and that's the main reason they answered Lincoln's call for volunteers.
That is idiotic. Nobody is going to leave their civilian life and family and go die for a reason that lame and abstract. They were angry viscerally for the reasons I already explained. If Lincoln hadn't called for volunteers he would have been finished as a politician.
I will support any secessionist movement if two qualifiers are met:
1. The human rights of the people in the seceding territory are being abused in some way.
2. The population overwhelmingly supports it.
Hency why South Sudan I support, Scotland and Catalonia I do not.
Quote from: dps on February 09, 2020, 08:18:02 PM
If you don't see a difference between not being terribly concerned with late 20 century/early 21 century ideas about human dignity and being willing to fight to preserve the institution of chattel slavery, I don't think you are going to find much common ground with many posters here. The Union didn't have to be perfect to be better than the Confederacy.
But the Union did not go to war because it war better than the South. Had the South not seceeded and accepted that slavery would not be allowed in new States, at the condition that slavery would be maintained in existing States, there would have been no war.
It's hard to pretend the North entered the war to end slavery. That was only an afterthought.
Voting for something is not the same as risking your neck for something. Lots of people vote for lower taxes or better social justice. Waging war over it is another matter.
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2020, 11:49:36 PM
I will support any secessionist movement if two qualifiers are met:
1. The human rights of the people in the seceding territory are being abused in some way.
2. The population overwhelmingly supports it.
Hency why South Sudan I support, Scotland and Catalonia I do not.
that is not your call. Nor mine. It's up to the people in these territories on how they feel.
Catalonia showed the world that Franco's Spain isn't too far behind. Scotland showed that England's colonial past is definately over.
The British government has gained a lot of respect in my eyes for how it handled the situation, and that's why Scotland lost their referendum and we only here about independance due to the Brexit movement.
I was against Brexit, but if the UK democratically decided to leave the EU, so be it. It's up to them. There was no referendum elsewhere in the EU about it, nor did I hear anyone here clamor for it.
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2020, 11:46:17 PM
QuoteThe Northerners wanted their union preserved and that's the main reason they answered Lincoln's call for volunteers.
That is idiotic. Nobody is going to leave their civilian life and family and go die for a reason that lame and abstract. They were angry viscerally for the reasons I already explained. If Lincoln hadn't called for volunteers he would have been finished as a politician.
And that is why we immediatly saw free black Northerners enrolled in the army, fighting side by side with their white brothers as equals... oh wait...
Viper, what is the point of this?
General rule: if you support a secessionist movement, anywhere in the world - DO NOT analogize to the South in the ACW. it was a horribly unjust society pursuing separatist ends for the basest of reasons. It is a terribly unsympathetic example.
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2020, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: dps on February 09, 2020, 08:18:02 PM
If you don't see a difference between not being terribly concerned with late 20 century/early 21 century ideas about human dignity and being willing to fight to preserve the institution of chattel slavery, I don't think you are going to find much common ground with many posters here. The Union didn't have to be perfect to be better than the Confederacy.
But the Union did not go to war because it war better than the South. Had the South not seceeded and accepted that slavery would not be allowed in new States, at the condition that slavery would be maintained in existing States, there would have been no war.
It's hard to pretend the North entered the war to end slavery. That was only an afterthought.
Voting for something is not the same as risking your neck for something. Lots of people vote for lower taxes or better social justice. Waging war over it is another matter.
The Union didn't "enter" the war. The Confederacy rebelled and attacked the Union.
And for that matter, the US didn't enter WWII because it was better than the Axis powers; we entered because we were attacked by Imperial Japan. That doesn't mean that we weren't better in a lot of measures than the Axis powers--we were--but we didn't enter the war because we were better.
And the fact that the North initially was fighting to preserve the Union instead of fighting to end slavery doesn't change the fact that the South wouldn't have been trying to leave the Union at all if they hadn't been seeking to preserve slavery.
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2020, 11:49:36 PM
I will support any secessionist movement if two qualifiers are met:
1. The human rights of the people in the seceding territory are being abused in some way.
2. The population overwhelmingly supports it.
Hency why South Sudan I support, Scotland and Catalonia I do not.
This is actually a good criteria and I'd support as well. Scotland and Catalonia both are just obstinate idiots who can't get along with others, and who dream of sketchy immense financial benefits if they separate. These aren't principled movements.
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2020, 12:11:40 AMthat is not your call. Nor mine. It's up to the people in these territories on how they feel.
Catalonia showed the world that Franco's Spain isn't too far behind. Scotland showed that England's colonial past is definately over.
And what if after Catalonia or Scotland achieve independence, sub-regions of those wish to have their own independence referendum? What if they wish to have a referendum to rejoin the parent country? If those pass, what if the new sub-national units also want to have referendums? At what point does the absurdity of this suggest to you that the core idea is stupid.
QuoteI was against Brexit, but if the UK democratically decided to leave the EU, so be it. It's up to them. There was no referendum elsewhere in the EU about it, nor did I hear anyone here clamor for it.
The European Union isn't a state but a treaty organization, between the governments of the member countries. Very different than a secession. Ethically I'd have been fine with the British Parliament withdrawing from the EU with no referendum at all. I think it'd be bad politics and upset people, but I don't think it'd be ethically invalid.
The mechanism used by the UK to withdraw was indeed approved by every other member when they ratified the Treaty of Lisbon.
BTW Viper, the Francomodín is a tired and laughable "argument". No, rejecting the supremacist whines of nationalists doesn't mean the Generalissimo is back.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 10, 2020, 12:56:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2020, 12:11:40 AMthat is not your call. Nor mine. It's up to the people in these territories on how they feel.
Catalonia showed the world that Franco's Spain isn't too far behind. Scotland showed that England's colonial past is definately over.
And what if after Catalonia or Scotland achieve independence, sub-regions of those wish to have their own independence referendum? What if they wish to have a referendum to rejoin the parent country? If those pass, what if the new sub-national units also want to have referendums? At what point does the absurdity of this suggest to you that the core idea is stupid.
Yours is pretty much my position, too. If each group gets to "make the call" on what higher-level organizations they belong to at any given time, you will eventually see children declaring that their bedrooms are seceding from the family house to get out of being grounded, then joining again in time for dinner.
What do you mean "eventually". You have described most teens at some point of those years. :D
There's definitely a lower limit. The difficult point is deciding where. I doubt it will be something we can scientifically define.
I think it's certain a country like Monaco wouldn't be allowed to come into existence but would a Luxembourg be fine?
Why? What are the criteria?
Wherever things stand on this lower extreme though certainly self determination for places as big and culturally distinct as Catalonia can't be denied purely because of the slippery slope argument, providing the is a clear majority in a referendum and not merely 50%+1 once in a blue moon
Funny you mention Luxembourg because I always point to that as the smallest a country should be :lol:
Well...besides islands because islands are weird politically.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 10, 2020, 01:00:55 AM
General rule: if you support a secessionist movement, anywhere in the world - DO NOT analogize to the South in the ACW. it was a horribly unjust society pursuing separatist ends for the basest of reasons. It is a terribly unsympathetic example.
True. But anywhere in the world, most unionists/federalists see the independantist movement as some kind of US South/Nazi state in becoming and will support the use of force to prevent secession. I just read it again last week-end about Quebec, where we are apparently worst than the US South. Coming from an proud Liberal support of english-canada, that was probably the worst insult he could think of, as the Nazis are marginally better than Americans in their eyes ;)
I just disagree that secession should be warranted only when your basic security needs are in extreme danger. And I disagree that even in extreme cases, the use of unilateral force is warranted to prevent people from seceding, discussion secession, or holding a vote on the issue.
As I said, the most mature way to deal with it was Scotland/UK and Brexit talks. No one in France or Germany voted if they wanted to break their European Union, only British citizens voted if they wanted to leave, and they regretably chose so. So be it. That is how democracy works. Sometimes we like the result, sometimes we don't.
I'm not Catalan. I do not know what is to live as a Catalan in a Spanish state, surrounded by Spanish speakers. Maybe they're all a bunch of racists who want to close their borders and idolize Donald Trump. I don't really care, because it is totally irrelevant. They are an identifiable group in a indentifiable territory, they wish to obtain more autonomy, that has been promised but never really implemented and now they wish to leave. So be it. Let them vote on the issue, sit with them before, establish ground rules, and let it play. Maybe they will split from Spain. Maybe they won't. Maybe there are other steps to take before it comes to that. But threatening them with jail sentences is stupid. Or talking about the courage of launching an invasion of their territory. That is equally stupid. No, I think it's worst. Probably the stupidest thing I've read here in since I joined.
If your home country bothers you, you can pack up and leave. You just can't force other people to leave with you.
I don't think Brexit is really relevant to the discussion. It didn't involve a section of a country leaving, but rather an already sovereign nation withdrawing from a treaty in accordance with provisions for withdraw included in the treaty to start with.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 10, 2020, 12:56:17 PM
The European Union isn't a state but a treaty organization, between the governments of the member countries. Very different than a secession.
similar to our most countries began. Who knows where it would have led in 200 years? They've done a lot of integrations since the 50s.
And:
QuoteThe union maintains permanent diplomatic missions throughout the world and represents itself at the United Nations, the World Trade Organization, the G7 and the G20. Due to its global influence, the European Union has been described as an emerging superpower.[22]
Certainly not a country, but much more than a simple economic treaty like Canada-US-Mexico.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 11, 2020, 05:26:14 PM
You just can't force other people to leave with you.
Really? 'Cause I seem to remember how this discussion started: send in the army to prevent them leaving.
There's this thing call democracy where people vote. It's almost never unanimous. When the 13 colonies seperated themselves from the mighty and glorious British Empire, lots of people didn't want to leave. Yet, you forced them to. And to make sure no one would pest you with silly ideas like rejoining the British Empire when things turned sour, you a) expelled many of them from the country, and b) made sure to add a provision that the presidency could only be claimed by someone born in the newly independant territory. Just to make sure, again, no one would have silly ideas to rejoin the Empire.
Quote from: viper37 on February 11, 2020, 11:25:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 11, 2020, 05:26:14 PM
You just can't force other people to leave with you.
Really? 'Cause I seem to remember how this discussion started: send in the army to prevent them leaving.
There's this thing call democracy where people vote. It's almost never unanimous. When the 13 colonies seperated themselves from the mighty and glorious British Empire, lots of people didn't want to leave. Yet, you forced them to. And to make sure no one would pest you with silly ideas like rejoining the British Empire when things turned sour, you a) expelled many of them from the country, and b) made sure to add a provision that the presidency could only be claimed by someone born in the newly independant territory. Just to make sure, again, no one would have silly ideas to rejoin the Empire.
Yes, really. And God, the rest of what you wrote is just pig-ignorant. And I really mean that, I think there maybe pigs that are better informed about this then you are.
Quote from: Tyr on February 11, 2020, 04:38:16 PM
Wherever things stand on this lower extreme though certainly self determination for places as big and culturally distinct as Catalonia can't be denied purely because of the slippery slope argument, providing the is a clear majority in a referendum and not merely 50%+1 once in a blue moon
Agree there should be a clear majority (67%, or even 75%). But the lesson from Brexit is not only having a clear majority to leave/secede, but also having a majority consensus on what they do want the new entity to be. That would also prevent various fringe crazies uniting out of very different motives.
This Canadian national myth about the poor Loyalists kicked out by the Evol Americans has always amused me. Approximately 60,000 of the roughly 3 million Americans in the country at the time left; that's two percent. It's hard to argue that a disagreement by 2 percent disproves the validity of an action.
And the situation of the 13 colonies was not like that of, say, Scotland or Catalonia. The 13 colonies were suffering under British mercantilistic exploitation, and had no voice in the UK's government. I'd be wiling to bet that, if the UK government passed a law depriving everyone in Scotland of a vote, there would be a lot more external support for a separation even if the UK didn't agree to it.
Part of the issue too is it's becoming more and more false to generalize about these sub-national regions. Most Western countries have significant internal migration, areas that once were extremely distinct, are now less so. Non-native immigrants, domestic migration, and other changes make it more and more questionable to speak of these sub-national units in such distinct terms.
In the United States the Old South really isn't any longer, so much internal migration has lead to people from all over the country moving to Texas and the Southeast that these regions have really lost a lot of their distinct character. Like take Quebec, of its 8m or so residents some 1m are estimated to be foreign born immigrants. How many of them immigrated to "Quebec" versus "Canada?" Should they not be considered at all?
Catalonia is a little smaller the Quebec in terms of population, but is far less distinct. While Quebec has actually seen a net outflow of Canadian citizen migration to other provinces (mostly of allophones and anglophones, which is why the % French primary language population has been ticking up since 1996), and has something like 88% of its population primary French speakers, only about 35% of Catalonia primarily speaks Catalan. For a region of around 7.5m Catalonia is home to over 1m foreign born immigrants.
The thirteen colonies also just aren't a good discussion point for modern secession, they don't even compare well to 19th century secession movements like the Confederacy. They were founded in a hodge podge of manners, administered in a hodge podge of ways for many years, were seen quite truly as "colonies" and not part of the core state in any sense. There's a reason such colonies were explicitly singled out as undesirable and a target for elimination after WWII, with a major movement in the UN to de-colonialize. It's because there isn't really a feasible way to retain a colony while adhering to modern democratic and sovereignty norms.
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2020, 10:17:29 AM
This Canadian national myth about the poor Loyalists kicked out by the Evol Americans has always amused me. Approximately 60,000 of the roughly 3 million Americans in the country at the time left; that's two percent. It's hard to argue that a disagreement by 2 percent disproves the validity of an action.
And the situation of the 13 colonies was not like that of, say, Scotland or Catalonia. The 13 colonies were suffering under British mercantilistic exploitation, and had no voice in the UK's government. I'd be wiling to bet that, if the UK government passed a law depriving everyone in Scotland of a vote, there would be a lot more external support for a separation even if the UK didn't agree to it.
Lots of Loyalists stayed, of course - those physically leaving were a small minority of the total. Staying did not necessarily imply agreement, merely that they did not wish to lose all their property and uproot their lives over the disagreement.
Nor is the notion that Loyalists were forced out widely thought to somehow invalidate the Revolution. I've never seen that as a "Canadian national myth".
The more complex issue is what would happen when the US attempted to expand into Upper Canada, whose population was mostly Americans - and most of them *not* Loyalists, but migrants who came for cheap land. The interesting process is how the US managed to botch that up and effectively plant the seed for Anglo-Canadian nationalism, by invading and messing up the invasion, turning former fellow-nationals into foes (both the Americans and the British thought much of the population would be loyal to the US).
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2020, 10:17:29 AM
This Canadian national myth about the poor Loyalists kicked out by the Evol Americans has always amused me. Approximately 60,000 of the roughly 3 million Americans in the country at the time left; that's two percent. It's hard to argue that a disagreement by 2 percent disproves the validity of an action.
And the situation of the 13 colonies was not like that of, say, Scotland or Catalonia. The 13 colonies were suffering under British mercantilistic exploitation, and had no voice in the UK's government. I'd be wiling to bet that, if the UK government passed a law depriving everyone in Scotland of a vote, there would be a lot more external support for a separation even if the UK didn't agree to it.
Please do not equate Viper's recollection of what happened with Canadian national myth making.
The Montgomery and Arnold expeditions into Canada are an area of the Revolution I've never been super informed on; at least from a political aspect. The military history is fairly straightforward and well known.
It seems strange that one of the major operations Congress sanctioned for the newly formed Continental Army was an invasion of Canada, it also seems like it was given little real thought or concern, and Congress had done little real analysis of the situation in Canada at all. I think the Congressional authorization for the expeditions literally say something like "if the Canadians are not opposed, we should seek to incorporate them into our efforts against the crown" or something of that nature. It's odd in a modern or even 19th century context to imagine such vague and uncertain orders being issued to military commanders.
My understanding is that at both meetings of colonial representatives in the pre-Declaration of Independence Continental Congress, the French-Canadians in Quebec were invited, and didn't attend or really respond to either invitation. I'm unclear on why Congress was under the impression they were amenable to joining the cause at all. Keep in mind just how much of a shoestring operation the Continental Army was in 1775-1776 makes it even stranger to commit two expeditionary forces into Canada.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 12, 2020, 11:18:41 AM
The Montgomery and Arnold expeditions into Canada are an area of the Revolution I've never been super informed on; at least from a political aspect. The military history is fairly straightforward and well known.
It seems strange that one of the major operations Congress sanctioned for the newly formed Continental Army was an invasion of Canada, it also seems like it was given little real thought or concern, and Congress had done little real analysis of the situation in Canada at all. I think the Congressional authorization for the expeditions literally say something like "if the Canadians are not opposed, we should seek to incorporate them into our efforts against the crown" or something of that nature. It's odd in a modern or even 19th century context to imagine such vague and uncertain orders being issued to military commanders.
My understanding is that at both meetings of colonial representatives in the pre-Declaration of Independence Continental Congress, the French-Canadians in Quebec were invited, and didn't attend or really respond to either invitation. I'm unclear on why Congress was under the impression they were amenable to joining the cause at all. Keep in mind just how much of a shoestring operation the Continental Army was in 1775-1776 makes it even stranger to commit two expeditionary forces into Canada.
Well that helps explain how botched the American effort was. If they had not pissed off all the people that probably would have identified as Americans then Canada would probably never have formed. The UK would have had their naval bases in Halifax and Bermuda and that would have been about it.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 12, 2020, 11:18:41 AM
My understanding is that at both meetings of colonial representatives in the pre-Declaration of Independence Continental Congress, the French-Canadians in Quebec were invited, and didn't attend or really respond to either invitation. I'm unclear on why Congress was under the impression they were amenable to joining the cause at all. Keep in mind just how much of a shoestring operation the Continental Army was in 1775-1776 makes it even stranger to commit two expeditionary forces into Canada.
I think that politically there was just an assumption that French-speaking Canadians at the time hated the British and would gladly be rid of them (probably true enough, but it doesn't follow that they would then be eager to become part of another English-speaking nation) and that English-speaking Canadians largely had the same grievances against the British government as did residents of the 13 colonies (which probably had some validity but wasn't totally accurate, either). Militarily, I think there was a desire to do something rather than simply stand on the defensive, plus a thought that taking Quebec and Montreal would deprive the British of good bases to invade the 13 colonies from the north. But it made no sense to send one force against Quebec and a separate force against Montreal. If they had just aimed for Quebec and successfully taken and held it (which still wouldn't have been a sure thing), Montreal would have been cut off and would probably have fallen easily in due time.
Quote from: Tyr on February 11, 2020, 04:38:16 PM
There's definitely a lower limit. The difficult point is deciding where. I doubt it will be something we can scientifically define.
I think it's certain a country like Monaco wouldn't be allowed to come into existence but would a Luxembourg be fine?
Why? What are the criteria?
Wherever things stand on this lower extreme though certainly self determination for places as big and culturally distinct as Catalonia can't be denied purely because of the slippery slope argument, providing the is a clear majority in a referendum and not merely 50%+1 once in a blue moon
Actually Catalonia is a perfect example of how silly the minimum boundary notion is.
There's a place called the Val d'Aran, which is administratively part of Catalonia. Population: ~10k. It has its own distinct language (a variant of Occitan) and history (having been formally autonomous for 500 years under the Crown of Aragón and Kingdom of Spain).
The Aranese are also opposed to being dragged out of Spain by any hypothetical Catalonia republic.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 12, 2020, 01:52:10 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 11, 2020, 04:38:16 PM
There's definitely a lower limit. The difficult point is deciding where. I doubt it will be something we can scientifically define.
I think it's certain a country like Monaco wouldn't be allowed to come into existence but would a Luxembourg be fine?
Why? What are the criteria?
Wherever things stand on this lower extreme though certainly self determination for places as big and culturally distinct as Catalonia can't be denied purely because of the slippery slope argument, providing the is a clear majority in a referendum and not merely 50%+1 once in a blue moon
Actually Catalonia is a perfect example of how silly the minimum boundary notion is.
There's a place called the Val d'Aran, which is administratively part of Catalonia. Population: ~10k. It has its own distinct language (a variant of Occitan) and history (having been formally autonomous for 500 years under the Crown of Aragón and Kingdom of Spain).
The Aranese are also opposed to being dragged out of Spain by any hypothetical Catalonia republic.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That this small area can stop a catalan secession?
Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.
There will of course be less simple examples in secessions. Isolated but large areas that want to remain part of the source nation and not the new nation. It could be tough to work things out there, even within the EU. But self determination should overall go as far as sensibly possible.
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2020, 04:27:15 PM
Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.
Has the last century of European/world conflict and war taught you nothing? This is almost an impossible one to solve. What is wrong with you?
But I guess what you are really saying that if everybody is reasonable and rational and sits down and calmly works out all the issues and makes sacrifices then everybody can, through good intellectually honest effort, come to an agreement everybody can live with. But, of course, if the two sides were capable of doing that, then why didn't they just work out all the problems that made secession something that was considered in the first place? Neither side would be making an intellectually honest effort, they would be using the negotiations as a pretext to paint their enemies as evil and to push for as much as they can get...because that is how these things usually go. I mean all the issues related to Brexit would have been solved years ago if what you are saying was something people are usually capable of doing. Ireland would have been solved in 1921.
Once you form parties around nationalism reasonable negotiations can rarely be made, because the ideology is inherently irrational and paranoid.
I don't know anything of the local situation there. But is there a reason the catalan nationalists may be hostile to this area that wants to remain part of Spain doing so?
I don't think we can compare a peaceful secession in the EU to being quite the same thing as historic European border rehashes.
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2020, 04:27:15 PM
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That this small area can stop a catalan secession?
Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.
There will of course be less simple examples in secessions. Isolated but large areas that want to remain part of the source nation and not the new nation. It could be tough to work things out there, even within the EU. But self determination should overall go as far as sensibly possible.
You said Monaco was too small to become a country, yet you seem to have no problem with a prospective country a quarter the population.
My argument is that yes, the slope is a tad slippery.
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2020, 05:10:50 PM
I don't know anything of the local situation there. But is there a reason the catalan nationalists may be hostile to this area that wants to remain part of Spain doing so?
I mean they are already trying to secede without a majority of popular support in any election. What people in one area thinks clearly does not matter much to them. I am sure they could come up with all kinds of reasons not to have a certain area be under the thrall of the "Spanish State" that is trying to do horrible things to them.
QuoteI don't think we can compare a peaceful secession in the EU to being quite the same thing as historic European border rehashes.
Yeah no problems have ever come between two countries in the EU that have border issues. Do all English people have such a profound ignorance of what has been going on in Ireland the past 50 years?
Besides I have no doubt that Catalonia will eventually be left out of and hate the EU if they become independent.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 12, 2020, 05:14:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2020, 04:27:15 PM
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That this small area can stop a catalan secession?
Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.
There will of course be less simple examples in secessions. Isolated but large areas that want to remain part of the source nation and not the new nation. It could be tough to work things out there, even within the EU. But self determination should overall go as far as sensibly possible.
You said Monaco was too small to become a country, yet you seem to have no problem with a prospective country a quarter the population.
My argument is that yes, the slope is a tad slippery.
I thought the question was whether Val d'Aran should be allowed to stay in Spain as part of a theoretical Catalan independence, not whether it should be independent.
Is there some slip in the slope of independence? Sure there is. If Spain borders aren't inviolable, then neither are Catalonia's. But it's not impossible to figure out either. I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 12, 2020, 05:14:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2020, 04:27:15 PM
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That this small area can stop a catalan secession?
Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.
There will of course be less simple examples in secessions. Isolated but large areas that want to remain part of the source nation and not the new nation. It could be tough to work things out there, even within the EU. But self determination should overall go as far as sensibly possible.
You said Monaco was too small to become a country, yet you seem to have no problem with a prospective country a quarter the population.
My argument is that yes, the slope is a tad slippery.
I thought the question was whether Val d'Aran should be allowed to stay in Spain as part of a theoretical Catalan independence, not whether it should be independent.
Is there some slip in the slope of independence? Sure there is. If Spain borders aren't inviolable, then neither are Catalonia's. But it's not impossible to figure out either. I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?
Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. :D
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:22:19 PM
I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?
No they did so via a bloody war. The problems with Schleswig Holstein was that the two provinces had sworn they would never be divided but Denmark and Germany really wanted them to be divided. There were two wars about it. After lots of Danes died fighting in World War I and Germany collapsed into revolution and civil war northern Schleswig joined Denmark after World War I after a referendum that was forced upon the province by the victorious allies.
Not sure if such a disastrous outcome is really "figured out" but fortunately after World War II neither Denmark nor Germany really care about it much anymore. Even Hitler didn't re-annex it since he was trying to keep Denmark somewhat friendly during its occupation.
Quote from: Malthus on February 12, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. :D
Lord Palmerston. :contract:
But the thing is it was only complicated from a 19th-century rules of inheritance point of view. When it came to the 20th century it was comparitively easy to solve. They held referendums, and the majority danish-speaking bits of Scheswig voted to join Denmark, while the majority german-speaking bits voted to stay within Germany (Holstein was never seriously in doubt).
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2020, 05:55:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:22:19 PM
I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?
No they did so via a bloody war. The problems with Schleswig Holstein was that the two provinces had sworn they would never be divided but Denmark and Germany really wanted them to be divided. The question is still not really resolved, but after lots of Danes died fighting in World War I and Germany collapsed into revolution and Civil War northern Schleswig joined Denmark after World War I after a referendum that was forced upon the province by the victorious allies.
Not sure if such a disastrous outcome is really "figured out" but fortunately after World War II neither Denmark nor Germany really care about it much anymore.
WWI was indeed a bloody war, but you might want to check your history. Denmark was not a combatant in that war, and the war can hardly be said to have been fought over the Danish-German border.
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:57:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 12, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. :D
Lord Palmerston. :contract:
But the thing is it was only complicated from a 19th-century rules of inheritance point of view. When it came to the 20th century it was comparitively easy to solve. They held referendums, and the majority danish-speaking bits of Scheswig voted to join Denmark, while the majority german-speaking bits voted to stay within Germany (Holstein was never seriously in doubt).
Not really, that referendum was only really possible because Germany lost World War I and even then as you point out the territory had to be divided.
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2020, 05:55:40 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:22:19 PM
I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?
No they did so via a bloody war. The problems with Schleswig Holstein was that the two provinces had sworn they would never be divided but Denmark and Germany really wanted them to be divided. The question is still not really resolved, but after lots of Danes died fighting in World War I and Germany collapsed into revolution and Civil War northern Schleswig joined Denmark after World War I after a referendum that was forced upon the province by the victorious allies.
Not sure if such a disastrous outcome is really "figured out" but fortunately after World War II neither Denmark nor Germany really care about it much anymore.
WWI was indeed a bloody war, but you might want to check your history. Denmark was not a combatant in that war, and the war can hardly be said to have been fought over the Danish-German border.
You might want to check your history. There were two Schleswig-Holstein Wars and many Danes died fighting in the German Army in World War I as they lived in Schleswig Holstein.
It just so happened that after awhile loyalty to the region and unity of Schleswig-Holstein lost out to German/Danish nationalism but it was World War I that caused that really.
And, as you say, the ancient 800 year old Schleswig province had to be partitioned. That was pretty messy and certainy what nobody in that region wanted originally.
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2020, 06:00:52 PM
many Danes died fighting in the German Army in World War I as they lived in Schleswig Holstein
Well, I'm sure that some Danes died fighting in the German Army in WWI, but I don't know the numbers or how what would be required to call that number "many", your post is somewhat disingenuous. People would normally take "many Danes died fighting in WWI" to mean that the Danish military during the war, not that Danes died fighting in other nation's militaries. Depending on how many casualties it would take to be classified as "many" you could probably say that many Danes died fighting in the US Army in WWI as well.
And shame on you for ignoring the Danes that died fighting in the German Navy in WWI. :P
Quote from: dps on February 12, 2020, 08:55:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2020, 06:00:52 PM
many Danes died fighting in the German Army in World War I as they lived in Schleswig Holstein
Well, I'm sure that some Danes died fighting in the German Army in WWI, but I don't know the numbers or how what would be required to call that number "many", your post is somewhat disingenuous. People would normally take "many Danes died fighting in WWI" to mean that the Danish military during the war, not that Danes died fighting in other nation's militaries. Depending on how many casualties it would take to be classified as "many" you could probably say that many Danes died fighting in the US Army in WWI as well.
And shame on you for ignoring the Danes that died fighting in the German Navy in WWI. :P
I brought it up because it was a major factor in the referendum in the Schlesswig area after WWI, that combined with the political disaster that had come to the German Empire following the defeat was what ultimately led to the Danish speaking areas to decide to leave Schlesswig-Holstein. (though if you look at the results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Schleswig_plebiscites lots of them still wanted to keep the province united even after all that had happened)
I didn't feel like looking up the actual number of Danes who were killed so I just said "many" and the specific number doesn't matter that much, does it?
Ok from what I can find about 25,000 Danes from Schlesswig-Holstein served in the Imperial Germany Army in World War I and roughly a third were killed. There you go.
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:57:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 12, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. :D
Lord Palmerston. :contract:
My bad - got my 19th century political grandees confused. :D
Quote
But the thing is it was only complicated from a 19th-century rules of inheritance point of view. When it came to the 20th century it was comparitively easy to solve. They held referendums, and the majority danish-speaking bits of Scheswig voted to join Denmark, while the majority german-speaking bits voted to stay within Germany (Holstein was never seriously in doubt).
I suspect it was only comparatively easy to solve because the great powers, particularly Germany, were clobbered in WW1, and everyone was horrified by resorting to war. Before that, there had been lots of violence and unhappiness over it.
The affair illustrates the unfortunate truth about separatist movements: there is usually someone who will be violently opposed to any re-division of territory, others who want to meddle for their own ends, and it is only under really unusual circumstances (in that case, the aftermath of a ruinous war; in say the Canadian case, and absence of outside meddlers and a strong commitment to democracy and the rule of law) that could ever allow such a process to be "comparatively easy".
The Canadian case illustrates another unfortunate (or fortunate) truth: that the same circumstances that make such a division "comparatively easy" (lack of outside meddlers, strong commitment to democracy and rule of law) undercut any possible reason for division - which is why, despite all the sad historical incidents of oppression Viper can dig up ( ;) ), Quebec separatism has so far failed.
Quote from: Barrister on February 12, 2020, 05:57:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 12, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. :D
Lord Palmerston. :contract:
Sometimes you people really fucking disappoint me.
This was a perfect set-up, yet not a single person replied with
"Pitt The Elder".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoDKh1EAZjI
Languish truly is dying. :weep:
I said it can join Spain, not be a country. I don't see this sort of thing being as much of a problem as new monacos becoming independent. Really I'd say its advisable in case of secessions to give border areas a choice.
For a similar example in the UK there are those in Berwick who talk of joining Scotland, particularly in case of independence
Quote from: Tyr on February 13, 2020, 11:40:24 AM
I said it can join Spain, not be a country. I don't see this sort of thing being as much of a problem as new monacos becoming independent. Really I'd say its advisable in case of secessions to give border areas a choice.
For a similar example in the UK there are those in Berwick who talk of joining Scotland, particularly in case of independence
What about non-border areas? Is choice only for small areas in priviledged geographic locations? Are your rights to self-determination defined by arbitrary geographic location?
Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2020, 10:40:37 AM
Languish truly is dying. :weep:
Languish never was that big on The Simpsons.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 13, 2020, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2020, 10:40:37 AM
Languish truly is dying. :weep:
Languish never was that big on The Simpsons.
I mean I was pretty big on The Simpsons but even by the time Languish was born it was no longer a good show.
Quote from: Valmy on February 13, 2020, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 13, 2020, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2020, 10:40:37 AM
Languish truly is dying. :weep:
Languish never was that big on The Simpsons.
I mean I was pretty big on The Simpsons but even by the time Languish was born it was no longer a good show.
But that bit was from Homer at the Bat, arguably the greatest Simpsons episode of all time!
You people disgust me.
Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2020, 01:02:17 PM
But that bit was from Homer at the Bat, arguably the greatest Simpsons episode of all time!
You people disgust me.
I mean don't get me wrong, I love the episode it totally kicks ass...but it was also almost 30 years ago so I have a hard time just pulling out references to it.
Quote from: Valmy on February 13, 2020, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 13, 2020, 01:02:17 PM
But that bit was from Homer at the Bat, arguably the greatest Simpsons episode of all time!
You people disgust me.
I mean don't get me wrong, I love the episode it totally kicks ass...but it was also almost 30 years ago so I have a hard time just pulling out references to it.
Pathetic.
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2020, 04:47:24 PM
Yeah - the whole point of the matter is that it is binding, so people have to think long and hard about it. Non-binding opens the door to people voting "Yes" just to "send a message".
But surely it has to be non-binding because the referendum decides a single issue but then it's normal politics that needs to work out how that happens and the terms.
QuoteI will support any secessionist movement if two qualifiers are met:
1. The human rights of the people in the seceding territory are being abused in some way.
2. The population overwhelmingly supports it.
Hency why South Sudan I support, Scotland and Catalonia I do not.
But it doesn't address the issue of say Scotland voting 55% 'Yes'. In that situation the majority of voters have withdrawn their consent from part of the constitutional settlement (it's the same with leaving the EU). It's wrong to continue to impose that once consent is withdarwn.
Quote
I don't think Brexit is really relevant to the discussion. It didn't involve a section of a country leaving, but rather an already sovereign nation withdrawing from a treaty in accordance with provisions for withdraw included in the treaty to start with.
Yeah, but the EU is more than just a treaty. For example it has concepts like "EU citizens" who can directly enforce their European rights. It's a fairly involved organisation which does give individuals rights which means UK citizens have lost those rights by withdrawing.
Those treaty rights existed as they were implemented in British law, at the end of the day the British legal system always had ultimate authority and Britain sovereignty because compliance was voluntary. I am sure the EU has a process for wielding sticks at members who just refused to adhere to EU laws but it's still a compulsory process. Compare this to the U.S., a Federal state, a U.S. State Governor can be arrested for refusing a Federal judge's court order, no EU court has that power over a British PM.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 13, 2020, 03:35:21 PMBut it doesn't address the issue of say Scotland voting 55% 'Yes'. In that situation the majority of voters have withdrawn their consent from part of the constitutional settlement (it's the same with leaving the EU). It's wrong to continue to impose that once consent is withdarwn.
And you just simplify it--which by the way, I've noticed you always do when talking about Scottish separatism. You put forth a theory on secession that is incompatible with modern values, and is more representative of a time when states were the dominions of crowned kings, and not the domains of plural peoples.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 13, 2020, 03:43:21 PM
Those treaty rights existed as they were implemented in British law, at the end of the day the British legal system always had ultimate authority and Britain sovereignty because compliance was voluntary. I am sure the EU has a process for wielding sticks at members who just refused to adhere to EU laws but it's still a compulsory process. Compare this to the U.S., a Federal state, a U.S. State Governor can be arrested for refusing a Federal judge's court order, no EU court has that power over a British PM.
No. But the UK courts could over-rule Parliament to implement European law, it's the only circumstance where the UK courts have that authority - which came from the European courts. Also the treaty rights and other legal rights are sometimes implemented by the UK, sometimes they don't need to be they are in UK law because they are directly enforceable European law.
It's not a federal country but it's a lot more than a treaty organisation like, say, NATO.
QuoteAnd you just simplify it--which by the way, I've noticed you always do when talking about Scottish separatism. You put forth a theory on secession that is incompatible with modern values, and is more representative of a time when states were the dominions of crowned kings, and not the domains of plural peoples.
You say simplify, I say boiling down :P
Can't Parliament just pass a law changing the court's authority (including its authority to review said law) at basically any time?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 13, 2020, 03:59:07 PM
Can't Parliament just pass a law changing the court's authority (including its authority to review said law) at basically any time?
No or maybe. Our constitution changed on this. Parliament by signing up to Europe made us subject to European law. One of the principles of EU law is the supremacy of EU law, so if it conflicts with member state law, then EU law prevails.
The UK courts had that issue come up, they asked the ECJ and the ECJ said these laws were incompatible and the principle of supremacy means the European law prevails. The UK courts implemented that and basically said that by signing up to the EU, Parliament had ceded sovereignty over certain areas to the EU and it was for the courts to implement European law in those areas. There were a few judges in the last 30 years who said, obiter, that if Parliament expressly passed legislation with the intention of repudiating a piece of European law then the courts should uphold that UK law, but it was never tested and I think the courts probably would have followed the European law. In that case the European Commission can enforce against the UK through the European courts, I think largely with fines and sort of sanctioning the UK government, but I think that's quite rare.
From memory when this principle was established was around the time Maastricht was being negotiated so this court case did play it's part in kicking off Euroscepticism because it was seen as a huge shift in our constitution.
Quote from: Valmy on February 13, 2020, 12:20:24 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 13, 2020, 11:40:24 AM
I said it can join Spain, not be a country. I don't see this sort of thing being as much of a problem as new monacos becoming independent. Really I'd say its advisable in case of secessions to give border areas a choice.
For a similar example in the UK there are those in Berwick who talk of joining Scotland, particularly in case of independence
What about non-border areas? Is choice only for small areas in priviledged geographic locations? Are your rights to self-determination defined by arbitrary geographic location?
I covered that in my earlier post too. It becomes a lot more complicated with exclaves et al, though if its under EU auspices then why not.
Theoretically a full checker board situation should be possible even with appropriate international agreements between the two parties.
Realistically you'll need to consider the viability of the exclave, its reasons for being, etc...
The Guardian has discovered the clowns over at INH :lol:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/catalonia-pays-3-to-firms-linked-to-shakespeare-was-catalan-theory
Quote
Catalonia pays €3m to firms linked to theory Shakespeare was Catalan
Media companies linked to institute that also claims Leonardo da Vinci, Cervantes and Columbus were Catalan
Stephen Burgen in Barcelona
The Catalan government had paid €3m (£2.6m) in subsidies to media companies with close links to a body that claims that Shakespeare, Cervantes and Columbus – among others – were Catalan.
The figures were revealed in a parliamentary answer given by Pere Aragonès, the Catalan vice-president, who said the money had been paid since 2012 to two media companies owned by Albert Codinas, the joint founder and current president of the New History Institute (INH) – one of which shares an address with it.
Núria Llorach, the president of the body that overseas TV3, the Catalan public broadcaster, also revealed that it had paid €184,000 for the rights to screen six INH documentaries.
The programmes include claims that Spain covered up the role that Catalans played in the European discovery of the Americas, that Miguel de Cervantes, author of Don Quixote, wrote in Catalan and had his true identity disguised by the Spanish Inquisition, and that Leonardo da Vinci was Catalan.
The Cervantes documentary claims that the giant of Spanish literature was in fact Joan Miquel Sirvent, a Catalan from Alicante in south-east Spain – nowhere near Don Quixote's La Mancha – and that "Cervantes" and Shakespeare were one and the same person. Among author Miquel Izquierdo's abstruse arguments is that will, seré in Catalan, and am, soy, together mean "I will be and am". According to Izquierdo, "from here it's clear" that it refers to Sirvent.
The institute, which was founded in 2007, has produced books and documentaries that support the theory that Columbus was Catalan and that Erasmus of Rotterdam was his love child. The explorer Francisco Pizarro, who is generally believed to have started life as a swineherd in Extremadura in western Spain, has also been recruited to the Catalan pantheon, as has Saint Teresa of Ávila, the Christian mystic descended from Jewish conversos.
Mainstream Spanish historians despair at the attention given to these theories by otherwise respectable media.
Vicent Baydal, a history of law professor in Valencia and the co-author of Pseudo History Against Catalunya, said the people behind the institute "are not even [academic] historians, they're people who have no idea, who don't understand historical methodology and don't even know how to look for or read historical documents".
Gabriel Rufián, the spokesman for the pro-independence Catalan Left party, urged the region's government to stop funding the INH last year. "No pseudoscience or pseudo-history should be funded with public money," he said. "It only serves those who wish to portray us as small, ridiculous and angry losers."
Duh, everybody knows Columbus was actually Galician. :P
It's happened again! :lol: :weep:
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/jun/22/experts-call-for-regulation-after-latest-botched-art-restoration-in-spain
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/60838d943b8bb9f6eb007ed64cfaa8bfee790a6d/0_0_5902_3543/master/5902.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=3ffa4af97661bee1d18aa4a31b493e96)
A Murillo too............probably worth millions............but "lets get that chap who fixed the kitchen chairs to sort out our old masters" :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 23, 2020, 05:10:23 AM
A Murillo too............probably worth millions............but "lets get that chap who fixed the kitchen chairs to sort out our old masters" :hmm:
I know. And God give me the confidence of a furniture cleaner who quotes a grand to restore a 17th century painting :lol:
It was not a proper Murillo, but a copy of one.
Ah........more explicable then.
Yeah, some media are neglecting the fact it's not an original when reporting the news.
Not sure how old the damaged copy is though. I presume it was still valuable.
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2020, 07:44:39 AM
Yeah, some media are neglecting the fact it's not an original when reporting the news.
Not sure how old the damaged copy is though. I presume it was still valuable.
I read somewhere that it was made by a disciple of Murillo, so probably it was some kind of practice exercise while the disciple was doing his apprenticeship at Murillo's workshop, so even if it's not an original one, it's still pretty old.
Quote from: The Larch on June 23, 2020, 07:50:40 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2020, 07:44:39 AM
Yeah, some media are neglecting the fact it's not an original when reporting the news.
Not sure how old the damaged copy is though. I presume it was still valuable.
I read somewhere that it was made by a disciple of Murillo, so probably it was some kind of practice exercise while the disciple was doing his apprenticeship at Murillo's workshop, so even if it's not an original one, it's still pretty old.
If it was from Murillo's workshop then it was certainly quite valuable.
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2020, 07:51:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 23, 2020, 07:50:40 AM
Quote from: celedhring on June 23, 2020, 07:44:39 AM
Yeah, some media are neglecting the fact it's not an original when reporting the news.
Not sure how old the damaged copy is though. I presume it was still valuable.
I read somewhere that it was made by a disciple of Murillo, so probably it was some kind of practice exercise while the disciple was doing his apprenticeship at Murillo's workshop, so even if it's not an original one, it's still pretty old.
If it was from Murillo's workshop then it was certainly quite valuable.
Yeah, it might not be an invaluable masterpiece but it's still a remarkable piece from the XVIIth century.
Are paintings (that are not part of the wall of a historic building or similar) generally protected by law in countries? I know that old buildings are protected to different degrees, but paintings? I am not sure what Swedish law looks like when it comes to this.
Oof, probably better to let it fade into oblivion than fuck up a restoration like that.
Quote from: The Larch on June 23, 2020, 05:33:44 AM
It was not a proper Murillo, but a copy of one.
So only a test run for the real one? I feel reassured now. :)
testruns and copies of artworks are often enough artworks themselves, and can't really serve as an excuse for that level of incompetence
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Any idea where to? I feel like Monaco/Monte Cristo is the most appropriate bolthole.
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Damn. And I thought he was one of the rare kings who didn't suck.
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2020, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Damn. And I thought he was one of the rare kings who didn't suck.
Juan Carlos? Are you kidding? :D
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/royal-scandals/4/
QuoteOutrage in Spain over what was seen as King Juan Carlos' extravagant hunting trip to Botswana was so extensive that the king had to issue an apology to the people of his debt-riddled nation. The palace confirmed such an apology was unprecedented in the history of Spain's monarchy. News of the April 2012 trip only surfaced after the king was injured in a fall in Botswana. Many Spaniards were dumbfounded that the king could make such an opulent journey - and, to boot, one to hunt elephants even though he is honorary president of the Spanish branch of the World Wildlife Fund - while everyday people brave a 23 percent unemployment rate
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2020, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2020, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Damn. And I thought he was one of the rare kings who didn't suck.
Juan Carlos? Are you kidding? :D
Yeah he helped deliver the country from fascism.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 03, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Any idea where to? I feel like Monaco/Monte Cristo is the most appropriate bolthole.
Somewhere without an extradition treaty to Spain and/or Switzerland, if possible. :lol:
I'd vote on him wandering around random Arab courts over the next few years, as it seems that it's where he did most of his "work".
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2020, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2020, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Damn. And I thought he was one of the rare kings who didn't suck.
Juan Carlos? Are you kidding? :D
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/royal-scandals/4/
QuoteOutrage in Spain over what was seen as King Juan Carlos' extravagant hunting trip to Botswana was so extensive that the king had to issue an apology to the people of his debt-riddled nation. The palace confirmed such an apology was unprecedented in the history of Spain's monarchy. News of the April 2012 trip only surfaced after the king was injured in a fall in Botswana. Many Spaniards were dumbfounded that the king could make such an opulent journey - and, to boot, one to hunt elephants even though he is honorary president of the Spanish branch of the World Wildlife Fund - while everyday people brave a 23 percent unemployment rate
The Bostwana affaire was the trigger to his fall from grace, which has been quite strepitous. The last year or so has seen plenty of shady financial shenanigans come to light, and he's currently under investigation by Swiss authorities.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 03, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 03, 2020, 11:49:36 AM
Soooo, King Juan Carlos has just announced he'll be leaving the country due to all his financial extra curriculars coming to light recently.
Any idea where to? I feel like Monaco/Monte Cristo is the most appropriate bolthole.
I really hope he rents a mansion opposite Puigdemont's in Belgium. Perfect sitcom.
So....chances of abolition of the monarchy?
And will this be made up for with the readoption of the cool republican flag?
Quote from: Tyr on August 03, 2020, 02:49:40 PM
So....chances of abolition of the monarchy?
And will this be made up for with the readoption of the cool republican flag?
I wouldn't count on it, the current king has worked hard since his accession to the throne to insulate himself from his father's misdeeds (even if his name has been found to appear in some unexpected documents during the investigations), to the point of enacting some symbolic measures earlier this year against him (he extinguished the former king's official allowance, for instance, and has announced that he'll be refusing any personal inheritance from him when it comes to it). In a way, this has already been factored in on the system, and nobody is now suddenly realizing that JC was shady as hell.
Abolition would also require a fairly complicated constitutional reform, including a general election.
Separatists and the Left are the most interested in opening that can of worms, bu they would surely also try to stick Title I in there (territorial integrity), which would doom it from the start.
He's popped up in the Dominican Republic. I really hope he manages to get himself crowned King of Hispaniola (which would give them cores on Haiti).
Quote from: Tyr on August 03, 2020, 02:49:40 PM
So....chances of abolition of the monarchy?
And will this be made up for with the readoption of the cool republican flag?
As the others said, the constitutional process of removing the monarchy is quite arduous, and it won't prosper without the agreement of the largest conservative party. And we don't live in times of national consensuses anymore.
The monarchy/republic issue has always been roughly 50/50 in Spain. However, the vast majority of republicans (like me) always had it way down in their reform priorities, given that the Spanish king is merely a ceremonial monarch. Now, if he abuses his position to enrich himself, that will start to eat at that tacit agreement of just letting the monarchy be.
I am very jealous that you've managed to force out one royal over their crimes, while we still, presumably, have Prince Andrew loitering in one of their palaces after all he's done/knows <_<
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 04, 2020, 04:29:58 PM
I am very jealous that you've managed to force out one royal over their crimes, while we still, presumably, have Prince Andrew loitering in one of their palaces after all he's done/knows <_<
It's been a long process, the Botswana incident was back in 2012.
I mean...so was Epstein's first conviction :(
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 04, 2020, 05:08:05 PM
I mean...so was Epstein's first conviction :(
tbh (I hate defending the Royals...), it's only been last year since the FBI has asked Prince Andrews to answer some questions and come to meet them.
So, the Spanish Supreme Court has just declared that Torra, the Catalan regional president, is inhabilitated for public office due to dissobeying court orders for a previous case. Now most probably new regional elections will have to be announced for early next year.
Quote from: The Larch on September 28, 2020, 07:14:29 AM
So, the Spanish Supreme Court has just declared that Torra, the Catalan regional president, is inhabilitated for public office due to dissobeying court orders for a previous case. Now most probably new regional elections will have to be announced for early next year.
The regular procedure would be for the Catalan Parliament to just appoint another president until the current term expires in 2022, but the several parties of the separatist majority despise each other nearly as much as they despise Spain, so we'll default to elections in 4 months.
Just saw one of the posters that Vox (Spain's far right party) is using to promote their motion of no confidence against the socialist government. :rolleyes:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjBK0EjXkAAmWdw?format=jpg&name=large)
Nasty gays, black immigrants, Greta Thunberg, and Soros. Scores 100% on rottennazitomatoes.
They're not even original in their slander.
Bill Gates' 15 minutes is up. :(
The motion is happening today, and it's almost hillarious how unsubtle these guys are about being a bunch of racist nationalists. I think we're somewhat lucky that Abascal is such a ridiculous idiot, far more Trump than, say, Marine, who's way smarter about trying to appear respectable.
The guy has even said (implicitly) that the current socialist government is worse than Franco's merry times :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on October 21, 2020, 07:42:57 AM
The guy has even said (implicitly) that the current socialist government is worse than Franco's merry times :lol:
Well, he didn't say they were worst than Hitler, so it's all good :P
Quote from: celedhring on October 21, 2020, 07:42:57 AM
The motion is happening today, and it's almost hillarious how unsubtle these guys are about being a bunch of racist nationalists. I think we're somewhat lucky that Abascal is such a ridiculous idiot, far more Trump than, say, Marine, who's way smarter about trying to appear respectable.
The guy has even said (implicitly) that the current socialist government is worse than Franco's merry times :lol:
And after the voting it turns out that they haven't received a single vote of support from outside their own group. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on October 22, 2020, 07:22:13 AM
And after the voting it turns out that they haven't received a single vote of support from outside their own group. :lol:
Nee surprise, there was doubt whether PP would abstain in order to not to piss off their right flank, but the speech Abascal delivered was cartoonishly evil.
(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/122164054_10225314997605796_3935053670534169520_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=FIGd0axVl1kAX-30nKk&_nc_ht=scontent-cdg2-1.xx&oh=f91596f879f1879dfa5e4f42bc5ba20b&oe=5FB73215)
:lol:
:D
So I hear some VIPs (including the health minister) decided restrictions on gatherings don't apply to them?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElVV9sfXIAA5mjx?format=jpg&name=medium)
The best part of that is that the event was organized by an opposition newspaper :lol:
So, the corruption investigation on former King Juan Carlos has now expanded to include his wife and other members of the royal family (not the current monarchs), for using credit cards linked to an undeclared foreign account. This would be fiscal fraud. Thing is that Queen Sofía isn't covered by the kind of total immunity that Juan Carlos has.
Regarding the investigation on the former King himself, word on the papers is that the prosecutor will eventually accept that the constitutional immunity prevents him from prosecuting Juan Carlos, but will still list all the potential charges and evidence against him before asking for the case to be dismissed. This would be quite damaging for the crown and there's some rumors that his son (King Felipe) will repudiate him to try to salvage what he can of the crown's reputation.
I am oath-bound to declare the British monarchy as a great exception to this but:
the whole monarchy thing is just silly in this day and age. Legal immunity due to birth? That is incredibly incompatible with even the most generic standards of our societies. Same with the bruhaha about Prince Harry not wanting to be a bred-for PR person. Nobody would dare proposing we should raise children for one specific lifetime job, yet that's what royal families are doing.
Except the British royals of course. Long may they reign.
The immunity is attached to the office. The office is then attained by birtright. I'm against both things but they are technically separate.
So King Juan Carlos could be prosecuted by shit he did after abdicating, and that window is what the prosecutor has been looking at, but since - apparently - everything is connected to felonies he commited as king, they cannot be used.
So, what's the first sign of a weak monarchy? The rise of pretenders of course! :w00t:
Sixto de Borbón is featured today in a Spanish newspaper, reasserting his claim to the throne in the name of God and Tradition, as the true heir of Charles VII.
Note that his heir presumptive is the reigning Grand-Duke of Luxemburg. The Empire will be back :mad:
The King's Christmas message this year is going to be a fun one. Do you think he'll even mention his father?
Indirectly, I presume. I expect some platitudes about "public powers have to be exemplary"
Quote from: The Larch on December 21, 2020, 05:47:43 AM
The King's Christmas message this year is going to be a fun one. Do you think he'll even mention his father?
The Spanish do this to? Is this some kind of thing for all Europe? Did Franz Joseph and Wilhelm II have Christmas messages?
Quote from: Valmy on December 21, 2020, 03:59:39 PM
The Spanish do this to? Is this some kind of thing for all Europe? Did Franz Joseph and Wilhelm II have Christmas messages?
I think so - I think the monarchs and non head of government President's do it - the President of Ireland does an annual Christmas message.
But the head of government presidents do too I think - Putin does a speech and a two hour press conference for Christmas/New Year. I think the French President does a New Year message too.
The King of Sweden criticised Sweden's response to covid in this year's address.
Yeah, I think it's a fairly common Head of State tradition. Over here even regional presidents get in on the action. :P
Regional presidents do New Year's though.
Puigdemont keeps doing one from Belgium every year :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2020, 05:15:19 PM
Regional presidents do New Year's though.
Puigdemont keeps doing one from Belgium every year :lol:
Of course, they wouldn't really counter-program the King on Christmas Eve. Except a couple of them who might be tempted. :P
Quote from: Tamas on November 03, 2020, 04:40:21 AM
I am oath-bound to declare the British monarchy as a great exception to this but:
the whole monarchy thing is just silly in this day and age. Legal immunity due to birth? That is incredibly incompatible with even the most generic standards of our societies. Same with the bruhaha about Prince Harry not wanting to be a bred-for PR person. Nobody would dare proposing we should raise children for one specific lifetime job, yet that's what royal families are doing.
Except the British royals of course. Long may they reign.
I dunno, I get it. There's the whole continuity and apolitical factor which is rather nice.
What I don't get is countries that spend even more money on elected presidents to do exactly the same job of having dinners with foreign president's and opening hospitals and other such stuff. Seems a bit useless without the celebrity from birth factor.
Maybe we could have a halfway system where you have to be an wizened celebrity without a history in politics and then you're elected for a 10 year term?
But doubt Judi Dench would take the job.
Which country spends more on a president than Britain spends on the royals?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2020, 06:00:25 PM
Which country spends more on a president than Britain spends on the royals?
Germany is the typical example.
May well be France and some others too.
You think the German president costs more than 67 million pounds? :blink:
The French president is non-ceremonial.
Quote from: Tyr on December 21, 2020, 05:55:14 PM
What I don't get is countries that spend even more money on elected presidents to do exactly the same job of having dinners with foreign president's and opening hospitals and other such stuff. Seems a bit useless without the celebrity from birth factor.
Disagree - they normally have more constitutional powers than a monarch because they have democratic legitimacy. It varies across Europe but all mostly ceremonial Presidents have more constitutional powers than a UK monarch (practically speaking) from the very strong (I think Italy) to the quite weak (Ireland) - so they can do things like, for example, referring bills to the courts before signing them or having quite a lot of influence in coalition formation.
Only some are actually directly elected a lot are elected by a special convention or the parliament. So they have some democratic legitimacy but don't have an equivalent mandate as the legislature/government.
Also I think they are able to be ceremonial in an important way - I think it is good to separate the "state" from the "government", for things like memorials, state dinners etc. Sometimes more political figures are good at the ceremonial stuff of the state (Cameron was surprisingly good - I remember his response to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry), sometimes they're not (see Trump - or for that mattter Johnson or Berlusconi). Plus they can often come from a slightly off-kilter political background which makes them slightly different, more substantial figures - Joachim Gauck in Germany, Mary Robinson and Michael D Higgins in Ireland - or just the fact they're not going to be competing to be PM lets them take on an honest broker/kingmaker role - like Napolitano in Italy.
And the "cheapness" of the Royal Family where fund the costs of their public role is still quite expensive and probably cross-subsidised by the income from their billions of pounds of private property (the Duchy of Lancaster for the Queen and Duchy of Cornwall for Charles), which they don't pay corporation tax on because they're the crown <_<
Besides, a monarchy costs way more than their stated budget.
You think the queen costs 67 million pounds? :blink:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2020, 06:10:15 PM
You think the German president costs more than 67 million pounds? :blink:
The French president is non-ceremonial.
It's normally lower. It's been higher for the past few years because the state is part-funding a refurbishment of Buckingham Palace.
QuoteYou think the queen costs 67 million pounds? :blink:
Her budget for this year is about £45 million with an extra £35million for the renovation of Buckingham Palace - not a million miles off £67miillion.
Edit: And I should say I've no issue with spending money to renovate Buckingham Palace (though not her private residences) because it's a state building and we are ridiculous about this. Parliament's put off spending money on urgently needed renovation works on its building meaning its constantly got leaks and holes in the roof and unsafe wiring. Also because they've not spent the requested money in decades (for fear of "MPs spend £xmillion on themselves" headlines) the building (a world heritage site :bleeding:) is now at risk of a serious accident that could burn the whole place down and the renovation will cost multiple billions instead :bleeding: :ultra:
Quote from: Tyr on December 21, 2020, 06:13:52 PM
You think the queen costs 67 million pounds? :blink:
https://www.statista.com/chart/18569/total-cost-of-the-uks-royal-family-by-year/
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2020, 06:16:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 21, 2020, 06:13:52 PM
You think the queen costs 67 million pounds? :blink:
https://www.statista.com/chart/18569/total-cost-of-the-uks-royal-family-by-year/
You think that Tyr is interested in facts? :blink:
Quote from: The Larch on December 21, 2020, 05:09:40 PM
Yeah, I think it's a fairly common Head of State tradition. Over here even regional presidents get in on the action. :P
Yes, the Austrian and German presidents do Christmas addresses. In Germany, the chancellor does an address at New Year's Eve.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2020, 06:10:15 PM
You think the German president costs more than 67 million pounds? :blink:
The office of the German president has a budget of about 44 million Euro, the biggest chunk of which are the costs of about 209 staff members and pensions for former staff members. But it also includes the president giving to charity, upkeep for buildings, vehicles, IT, holding conferences or other public events, the presidents trips abroad, paying for some scientific studies etc.
It's 50 cents per person in Germany or a Euro per taxpayer, about 0.01% of the overall federal budget. I guess we can afford that.
PS: A cursory glance at Google results suggests that the British Royal Households have way more staff (2 to 5 times as much are numbers I found), but they seem to be poorly paid. That would still suggest higher total spending.
The Crown still owns vast estates and makes substantial profits of c. £350m each year; 25% of these profits go to the reigning monarch :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Estate
The palaces and houses may belong to either the state or the Queen in her personal capacity. So Buckingham palace is state-owned and railing against the maintenance being paid by the state is pointless. I don't think the Queen even likes the place; she always seems to go to Windsor, Balmoral or Sandringham when she can. She personally owns Balmoral and Sandringham.
With the staff it must get very confusing. At one extreme it would seem fair that she pay the wages of the gamekeeper at Balmoral; at the other no way should she have to pay the wages of the coachmen when she is obliged to travel in that ghastly coach-thing.
Of course Canada, Australia etc have a real bargain - a free head of state :cool:
I mean I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhyYgnhhKFw by CGP Grey and it kind of sounded like the UK doesn't get a bad deal at all with the monarchy. And, if what was said inside was true, getting rid of the monarchy would be crazy complicated with all that quasi public property with all those weird bargains the monarchy struck. So I kind of understood the powerful momentum keeping the institution going.
But it is not like I went back and fact checked everything.
I think the monarchy will go the next time we have a truly ghastly monarch; but both Charles and Willian seem fine........unless Charles oversteps the mark I suppose :hmm:
It may be a strawman but the anti-monarchists always seem to stress that the monarchy is old-fashioned, this is not a very strong argument in the UK :bowler: , I think they should go for the exciting benefits that having a colourless bureaucrat as head of state would bring :P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2020, 03:45:55 AMThe Crown still owns vast estates and makes substantial profits of c. £350m each year; 25% of these profits go to the reigning monarch
Plus the £20 million private profit from the Duchy of Lancaster :lol:
QuoteWith the staff it must get very confusing. At one extreme it would seem fair that she pay the wages of the gamekeeper at Balmoral; at the other no way should she have to pay the wages of the coachmen when she is obliged to travel in that ghastly coach-thing.
Of course Canada, Australia etc have a real bargain - a free head of state :cool:
Yeah - also even a sort of ceremonial President in Germany or Ireland or Italy is, to some extent, still a political figure who will have at least some highly paid advisors. The Queen is an ornament who will have lots of low-paid, live-in servants to maintain her Ruritanian existence.
I'm not sure how much of that came back in Spain where you restored a monarchy pretty recently?
QuoteI mean I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhyYgnhhKFw by CGP Grey and it kind of sounded like the UK doesn't get a bad deal at all with the monarchy. And, if what was said inside was true, getting rid of the monarchy would be crazy complicated with all that quasi public property with all those weird bargains the monarchy struck. So I kind of understood the powerful momentum keeping the institution going.
I don't think that has much to do with it. Also that video is a little weird because it sort of accepts the ownership of land by monarchs and deals with them as legitimate. It's not like most countries that have got rid of monarchies have had to raise taxes to deal with lost income from royal estates - they expropriate the land and exile the royals (at best).
And the name would obviously not be the United Republic of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It would just be the Commonwealth of Great Britain and Northern Ireland :w00t: :menace:
QuoteI think the monarchy will go the next time we have a truly ghastly monarch; but both Charles and Willian seem fine........unless Charles oversteps the mark I suppose :hmm:
It may be a strawman but the anti-monarchists always seem to stress that the monarchy is old-fashioned, this is not a very strong argument in the UK :bowler: , I think they should go for the exciting benefits that having a colourless bureaucrat as head of state would bring :P
Agreed - the monarchy's not going anywhere and Republicanism is an extremely niche taste. I do always love Republic's attempts to be relevant :lol:
As you say it'll probably go next time there's an awful monarch but I don't see that happening for the next 60 years or so.
QuoteIt's not like most countries that have got rid of monarchies have had to raise taxes to deal with lost income from royal estates - they expropriate the land and exile the royals (at best).
Yeah ok. Unless the UK Monarchy is going to be toppled by a revolution I think that would be a very difficult thing to accomplish. Just legally confiscate somebody's property? For what? The crime of being unpopular? I think that, constitutionally and legally, is much more complicated a process then you are acting like it is. We are talking about centuries of legal precedence here in a common law country. And not just any common law country but Britain which earnestly loves every law that predates the printing press.
You are a lawyer, surely that should be obvious, yes?
I mean, again, unless you do it by storming the palace and shooting them all by firing squad, then it would be pretty straight forward.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2020, 03:50:18 AM
getting rid of the monarchy would be crazy complicated with all that quasi public property with all those weird bargains the monarchy struck. So I kind of understood the powerful momentum keeping the institution going.
The British government is committed to rip up a considerable part of the socio-economic legal framework including 40 regulatory agencies, security partnerships and second biggest trading relationship on the planet without any discernable plan other than "sovereignty". So "crazy complicated" does not seem to deter them.
Regarding the royal estates... The Spanish Republic seized all the estates of the Spanish crown. Franco, who created a kingdom without a king, never restored them (since he rather enjoyed them himself, instead), nor did the democracy. Of course, as a result we eventually got a crooked king that decided he needed to engage in shady dealings in order to fund a more extravagant lifestyle than the one the state budget could afford him :hmm:
So the moral of the story seems to be don't stiff your monarch or otherwise get rid of him/her :P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2020, 03:45:55 AM
Of course Canada, Australia etc have a real bargain - a free head of state :cool:
Does Queen Liz perform many stately duties for the Commonwealth realms? Doesn't seem she would be able to. :hmm:
Also, for the Canadians... do people there in general care much for the Queen? I've always thought it's a weird arrangement, although I would presume nobody cares that much.
She has her "hand picked" Governor Generals to act in her place.
As for how popular Liz II herself is (which name I find odd since, to the best of my knowledge, Liz I was never Queen of Canada) well I know Viper is a big fan.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2020, 04:17:52 AM
Yeah ok. Unless the UK Monarchy is going to be toppled by a revolution I think that would be a very difficult thing to accomplish. Just legally confiscate somebody's property? For what? The crime of being unpopular? I think that, constitutionally and legally, is much more complicated a process then you are acting like it is.
I don't see why - there is a very big difference between property held by the Crown which is a public office and property held by the Queen as an individual. If it's property held by the Crown that's basically the UK state not the royal family personally. It's no more her land than the White House belongs to the President. Or it's no more her land personally than the royal prerogatives are her powers personally - they are part of the office/state of the UK.
The Crown Estate includes assets that are unowned (normally because of intestacy or not being able to identify people who should inherit the property), in the UK generally that goes to the Crown (as does all unregistered land - largely huge chunks of moors in the Highlands or Yorkshire).
I can see an argument that they should be allowed to keep property that they hold personally (for example Balmoral Estate or Sandringham Estate, or Prince Charles' country palace). They'd still be billionaires owning vast swathes of land.
QuoteWe are talking about centuries of legal precedence here in a common law country. And not just any common law country but Britain which earnestly loves every law that predates the printing press.
You are a lawyer, surely that should be obvious, yes?
I mean, again, unless you do it by storming the palace and shooting them all by firing squad, then it would be pretty straight forward.
You're describing the US :P
In all seriousness old-school legalese style drafting is seen as a US lawyer thing here, the preference, encouraged by the courts, is for more plain drafting and a focs on the substance of what you're trying to achieve. There is still some unavoidable legalese boilerplate where there may be some legalist formal requirements but the courts generally try and limit that and don't like if you have to use a certain form of words to achieve something.
I'm a solicitor so I deal with ever day law - I'm not an inventive barrister/litigator trying to think of any possible precedent in a case. But sort of the point of common law isn't that you refer to loads of ancient cases but that you have loads of modern ones, as principles get re-stated or expanded upon. Public/administrative law only really developed in the UK in the second half of the 20th century. I don't know about criminal but with contracts I can't think of any big issue where I'd be reaching back before the 20th century to confirm a point. I think most land law is post 1925 reforms. It might be more common in big constitutional cases (like prorogation) but that's not because we love the old timey law, it's because there are fewer of those cases so you have to go back through all the records.
But obviously getting rid of the monarchy would be a constitutional moment and probably require codifying a constitution.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2020, 06:16:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 21, 2020, 06:13:52 PM
You think the queen costs 67 million pounds? :blink:
https://www.statista.com/chart/18569/total-cost-of-the-uks-royal-family-by-year/
Even a second long glance at that chart should tell you something is wrong with that number.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2020, 04:37:27 AM
She has her "hand picked" Governor Generals to act in her place.
As for how popular Liz II herself is (which name I find odd since, to the best of my knowledge, Liz I was never Queen of Canada) well I know Viper is a big fan.
One of my pet peeves with the Spanish monarchy is that their numerals are counted using the list of the Kings of Castille, instead of reseting the count when Spain was founded*
*Nobody can really agree on when that happened, which is one of the reasons of the artifact.
As you see I'm trying to steer back the discussion towards Spanish matters, this being the Spain thread and not yet another thing the British stole from us. :P :mad:
Germany is just being sued by the descendants of the Hohenzollern family as they want real estate and art back that was confiscated. However, it was confiscated by the Soviet military government in 1945 and Germany declared legal acts by the occupying powers beyond its jurisdiction, especially as the head of the house back in WW2 supported the Nazis - the degree of this support is under discussion in historic academia.
Quote from: celedhring on December 22, 2020, 04:45:38 AM
One of my pet peeves with the Spanish monarchy is that their numerals are counted using the list of the Kings of Castille, instead of reseting the count when Spain was founded*
*Nobody can really agree on when that happened, which is one of the reasons of the artifact.
This has caused controversy here too. In the fifties when she was crowned anything with ERII got vandalised in Scotland because she should be ERI in Scotland. Post boxes in Scotland still don't have ERII on them due to the incidents :lol:
Apparently in the UK the numerals follow either kings of Scotland or England. So for both it would be Charles III, for William it would be William V (not William IV of Scotland), but if we were to have a King James it would be James VIII (following Scottish kings) not James III (following the English).
Presumably Spanish separatists want a Republic because of the stronger republican tradition in Spain? Or am I wrong and they want, I guess, Felipe I?
Quote from: Zanza on December 22, 2020, 04:50:18 AM
Germany is just being sued by the descendants of the Hohenzollern family as they want real estate and art back that was confiscated. However, it was confiscated by the Soviet military government in 1945 and Germany declared legal acts by the occupying powers beyond its jurisdiction, especially as the head of the house back in WW2 supported the Nazis - the degree of this support is under discussion in historic academia.
They're also claiming the Dutch mansion Wilhelm II spent his exile in. Are they this desparate for money or is it something else?
I find it more probable that they are pretentious assholes who somehow think they are better than their fellow citizens. The Austrians got it right with the Habsburgs.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 22, 2020, 04:55:09 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 22, 2020, 04:45:38 AM
One of my pet peeves with the Spanish monarchy is that their numerals are counted using the list of the Kings of Castille, instead of reseting the count when Spain was founded*
*Nobody can really agree on when that happened, which is one of the reasons of the artifact.
This has caused controversy here too. In the fifties when she was crowned anything with ERII got vandalised in Scotland because she should be ERI in Scotland. Post boxes in Scotland still don't have ERII on them due to the incidents :lol:
Apparently in the UK the numerals follow either kings of Scotland or England. So for both it would be Charles III, for William it would be William V (not William IV of Scotland), but if we were to have a King James it would be James VIII (following Scottish kings) not James III (following the English).
Presumably Spanish separatists want a Republic because of the stronger republican tradition in Spain? Or am I wrong and they want, I guess, Felipe I?
Felipe VI should be Felipe V if we started counting Emperor Charles as the first monarch of an unified Spain (there's cases against that).
Regarding secessionists, without getting into a looooooooooooong discussion around the Catalan national myth, which is tiresome :P for them republicanism is essentially a PR tool. Allows them to build bridges with Spanish republicans, and also gives them a boogey man that they can use almost as a Spanish Soros. The fact that the House of Barcelona became extinct in the XVth century doesn't give much a rope to would-be Catalan monarchic nationalists either (there's claimants, but they have no clout).
Plus republicanism in Spain is complicated, it has become a left-right issue, due to the Civil War. Conservative republicans do exist, mind, and they are *quite* influential. (a lot of reporting on royal scandals has come from conservative newspapers).
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 21, 2020, 06:13:07 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 21, 2020, 05:55:14 PM
What I don't get is countries that spend even more money on elected presidents to do exactly the same job of having dinners with foreign president's and opening hospitals and other such stuff. Seems a bit useless without the celebrity from birth factor.
Disagree - they normally have more constitutional powers than a monarch because they have democratic legitimacy. It varies across Europe but all mostly ceremonial Presidents have more constitutional powers than a UK monarch (practically speaking) from the very strong (I think Italy) to the quite weak (Ireland) - so they can do things like, for example, referring bills to the courts before signing them or having quite a lot of influence in coalition formation.
Only some are actually directly elected a lot are elected by a special convention or the parliament. So they have some democratic legitimacy but don't have an equivalent mandate as the legislature/government.
Also I think they are able to be ceremonial in an important way - I think it is good to separate the "state" from the "government", for things like memorials, state dinners etc. Sometimes more political figures are good at the ceremonial stuff of the state (Cameron was surprisingly good - I remember his response to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry), sometimes they're not (see Trump - or for that mattter Johnson or Berlusconi). Plus they can often come from a slightly off-kilter political background which makes them slightly different, more substantial figures - Joachim Gauck in Germany, Mary Robinson and Michael D Higgins in Ireland - or just the fact they're not going to be competing to be PM lets them take on an honest broker/kingmaker role - like Napolitano in Italy.
I'm no expert on the system of other countries. But the typical republican proposal of just a one for one replacement for the queen is just pointless.
Keeping the state separate from the government is definitely useful- though it has been looking ever shakier these days. But I just don't see how we'd get this with an elected politician without first seeing massive change in the UK towards becoming a democracy a generation or two before hand.
QuoteAnd the "cheapness" of the Royal Family where fund the costs of their public role is still quite expensive and probably cross-subsidised by the income from their billions of pounds of private property (the Duchy of Lancaster for the Queen and Duchy of Cornwall for Charles), which they don't pay corporation tax on because they're the crown <_<
Yes, no doubt the explanation for how they can do it more affordability yet less effectively.
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2020, 04:44:51 AM
Even a second long glance at that chart should tell you something is wrong with that number.
It should but it didn't.
Quote from: Zanza on December 22, 2020, 01:59:08 AM
The office of the German president has a budget of about 44 million Euro, the biggest chunk of which are the costs of about 209 staff members and pensions for former staff members.
Why the hell does the German president need a staff of 209? :huh:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2020, 03:45:55 AM
Of course Canada, Australia etc have a real bargain - a free head of state :cool:
If only. :(
The office of the Governor-General runs into the tens of millions of dollars. Plus because it's appointed for a term, we have several former GG's running around, who in addition to a generous pension they are given millions to set up charities, plus can bill "expenses" back to the government.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2020, 10:50:08 AM
Why the hell does the German president need a staff of 209? :huh:
To fulfill his constitutional obligations.
https://www.bundespraesident.de/EN/Role-and-Functions/role-and-functions-node.html
Still much cheaper than what the Brits pay, no?
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 22, 2020, 11:24:31 AM
Still much cheaper than what the Brits pay, no?
Well actually no, though it's complicated.
When it comes to actual, direct subsidy we pay more. However there's the issue of the Queen's estates which she doesn't pay tax on, but does otherwise provide money back.
Edit: Misread the figures. The UK apparently pays just slightly more in direct subsidy per capita than Canada ($1.68/person in Canada, $1.93/person in UK). But then there's the Queen's estates (in the UK) that both benefit from being tax-free, but also give direct contributions to the British treasury that greatly exceed the direct subsidy.
The Queen retains estates in Canada? You guys should've done like your southern neighbors.
Interesting before/after:
(https://i.redd.it/uswjr26bfy661.jpg)
Atlantis was thought to have many wonders...but I did not know satellite imagery was one of them. :sleep:
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 23, 2020, 06:52:31 PM
Atlantis was thought to have many wonders...but I did not know satellite imagery was one of them. :sleep:
That's from a modern satellite that just orbited backwards to go backwards in time.
Tartessos?
I now want 1104 BC Google Earth.
That place is still covered with a marsh (incidentally, super beautiful/eerie place). IIRC due to climate change it is feared it will get flooded again in the late 2000s.
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2020, 06:05:04 AM
Indirectly, I presume. I expect some platitudes about "public powers have to be exemplary"
That was quite easy, I'll give myself one tarta de Santiago point.
Now I'm off to my (Covid-downscaled) Christmas family dinner. Hopefully I can avoid politics this year, it's so, so tiresome :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on December 22, 2020, 11:31:53 AM
The Queen retains estates in Canada? You guys should've done like your southern neighbors.
hear, hear!
So, for those in the know about the inner workings and the dark side of Spanish politics, PP have been embroiled during the last few years in a protracted legal battle dealing with their finances, which were apparently plagued with irregularities and/or downright illegal dealings. This mostly had to do with bribes from private companies in exchange for public contracts, which were kept partly in cash in PP's HQ, and used to suplement the incomes of the heads of the party over the years (via envelopes stuffed with bank notes) as well as to finance their electoral campaigns and other party expenses (most prominently and controversially, renovations to their HQ in Madrid's Génova street, which has turned in public imagination into a modern version of the eponymous thieves' den). Revelations from this case were the main cause of the downfall of Mariano Rajoy's government.
If you feel like digging deeper into it, check the following wiki links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCrtel_case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCrtel_case)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1rcenas_affair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1rcenas_affair)
In a recent development, one of the key players, Luís Bárcenas, PP's former treasurer, has agreed to cooperate with the judges, and his revelations might be more than juicy.
QuoteEx-treasurer's revelations rattle Spain's Popular Party ahead of illegal funding trial
Luis Bárcenas has sent prosecutors a letter promising to cooperate and naming senior party officials who allegedly accepted regular payments of undeclared money
New revelations from the former treasurer of Spain's Popular Party (PP), Luis Bárcenas, who is serving a 29-year sentence over a sweeping graft case known as Gürtel, could affect the outcome of a new trial probing an illegal funding system run by the conservative group.
(...)
Now, with less than a week to go before the start of a trial over the PP's alleged illegal funding – in which Bárcenas is the main accused party and faces a five-year sentence – the former treasurer has sent prosecutors a letter expressing his "desire to cooperate with the justice system." José María Aznar and Mariano Rajoy, two former prime ministers who served at the time when the PP was allegedly running this parallel accounting system, will appear in court as witnesses.
https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-02-04/ex-treasurers-revelations-rattle-spains-popular-party-ahead-of-illegal-funding-trial.html (https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-02-04/ex-treasurers-revelations-rattle-spains-popular-party-ahead-of-illegal-funding-trial.html)
Now, in the latest development of this saga, and right after PP's rather bad results in Catalonia's regional elections this weekend, in which they were clearly overtaken by Vox, PP's current leader, the laughably terrible and ill qualified (fake Harvard degree and everything) Pablo Casado has just announced that PP will actually abandon their iconic (maybe not the right word, but you get the idea) Génova street HQ in order to cut ties with its corrupt past and stop being reminded that their very own offices are basically a synonim for public corruption in the mindset of many Spaniards. Of course, the scorn and the jokes in social media have been non-stop since then.
For ilustrative purposes, this is the infamous PP's Génova street HQ.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Sede_del_Partido_Popular_%28cropped%29.jpg/800px-Sede_del_Partido_Popular_%28cropped%29.jpg)
By contrast, here's the far more modest PSOE HQ.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Sede_del_PSOE_%28Madrid%29_01.jpg/800px-Sede_del_PSOE_%28Madrid%29_01.jpg)
The move reads essentially to me as "we can't afford paying for this without bribe money" :D
Quote from: celedhring on February 16, 2021, 01:00:50 PM
The move reads essentially to me as "we can't afford paying for this without bribe money" :D
Yeah, owning an entire office building in the very center of Madrid for decades really was shouting out "this is paid with dirty money". :lol:
Spain's new nazi darling.
(https://artear-tn-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/tAkZ_KtpnnvF5saqVIXaHHGUfDk=/767x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/artear/6QZO6ZU5IJAWVOKHIV2ZSNKLII.jpg)
(https://s1.eestatic.com/2021/02/16/espana/politica/559456623_173191418_1706x960.jpg)
Catapulted herself into fame during an antisemite rally last week. She's been charged with incitement of hatred.
Maybe she was just hailing a cab? :P
I doubt so...
Her whole speech felt straight from the 1930s ("the jew is guilty!"). There's some clips out there with english subtitles and all, but I won't share that nazi drivel here.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuMKz4GWQAENT77?format=jpg&name=small)
In Germany you have Naomi Seibt. She rejects man-made climate change, is against migration, feminism, against Covid-measures, etc.
Apparently the Heartland Institute in the US employed her as "Anti-Greta." :rolleyes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Seibt
Isabel is hotter and probably nazi-er.
The German one is more what I'd expect.
Somehow I doubt the Nazis would approve of the Spanish one.
But yes. Hot.
Then what about Jennifer Klauniger from Austria?
(https://cms.falter.at/falter/wp-content/uploads/falter_medien_interview-verschwoerung_Jenny_CM84541-800x494.jpg)
(https://www.queer.de/img/regenbogenflagge-querdenken-scharf-600.jpg)
She organized protests on the Slovenian border against uncontrolled migration, rejects face masks, and tore up a rainbow flag on stage at a protest, saying that it was a symbol of pedophilia and that homosexuals are not part of society.
Yeah....I know that type too.... Absolutely not hot.
The UK has Frankenstein who is clearly the worst of the bunch.
But whatever. Its their minds that are poison no matter how horrid they may look.
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:40:58 AM
Isabel is hotter and probably nazi-er.
But less Aryan-er. :P
I thought this bump would be because of the Hasel riots, or Ayuso bringing a stone to the Madrid regional parliament.
:lol:
Duque brought up the Hasel riots in the Catalan thread, but didn't get as much traction as nazi hotties :blush:
I demand left wing hotties to cleanse my palate.
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:54:27 AM
:lol:
Duque brought up the Hasel riots in the Catalan thread, but didn't get as much traction as nazi hotties :blush:
As if certain groups needed an excuse to riot in Barcelona. :P
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:54:27 AM
:lol:
Duque brought up the Hasel riots in the Catalan thread, but didn't get as much traction as nazi hotties :blush:
Big, big surprise! :lol:
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/602710fd250000191c91b648.jpeg?cache=I4wTft68ah&ops=scalefit_630_noupscale)
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:52:59 AM
Yeah....I know that type too.... Absolutely not hot.
The UK has Frankenstein who is clearly the worst of the bunch.
But whatever. Its their minds that are poison no matter how horrid they may look.
Hottie or not, I'm still flabbergasted at what kind of environment makes a 18 year old girl step onto a podium and start an antisemite tirade. Troubling times.
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:59:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:52:59 AM
Yeah....I know that type too.... Absolutely not hot.
The UK has Frankenstein who is clearly the worst of the bunch.
But whatever. Its their minds that are poison no matter how horrid they may look.
Hottie or not, I'm still flabbergasted at what kind of environment makes a 18 year old girl step onto a podium and start an antisemite tirade. Troubling times.
I do wonder whether for some of them they might be a lot smarter than they let on and they realise they can build a career out of this stuff?
Kind of like those girls making big money from selling pictures and videos of themselves on only fans that don't even cross the porno line, except with hate speech instead of side boob and anime costumes.
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:59:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:52:59 AM
Yeah....I know that type too.... Absolutely not hot.
The UK has Frankenstein who is clearly the worst of the bunch.
But whatever. Its their minds that are poison no matter how horrid they may look.
Hottie or not, I'm still flabbergasted at what kind of environment makes a 18 year old girl step onto a podium and start an antisemite tirade. Troubling times.
I'd bet a beer next time we can have one into her having a long lineage of fashness running through her veins. It's not as if people have blue shirts hanging around the house just because.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 19, 2021, 05:58:36 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:54:27 AM
:lol:
Duque brought up the Hasel riots in the Catalan thread, but didn't get as much traction as nazi hotties :blush:
Big, big surprise! :lol:
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/602710fd250000191c91b648.jpeg?cache=I4wTft68ah&ops=scalefit_630_noupscale)
Danny Dyer's looking well :)
Quote from: The Larch on February 19, 2021, 06:01:37 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:59:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:52:59 AM
Yeah....I know that type too.... Absolutely not hot.
The UK has Frankenstein who is clearly the worst of the bunch.
But whatever. Its their minds that are poison no matter how horrid they may look.
Hottie or not, I'm still flabbergasted at what kind of environment makes a 18 year old girl step onto a podium and start an antisemite tirade. Troubling times.
I'd bet a beer next time we can have one into her having a long lineage of fashness running through her veins. It's not as if people have blue shirts hanging around the house just because.
Ah yes, some google digging reveals she's the daughter of a Falangist.
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 06:36:04 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 19, 2021, 06:01:37 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:59:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:52:59 AM
Yeah....I know that type too.... Absolutely not hot.
The UK has Frankenstein who is clearly the worst of the bunch.
But whatever. Its their minds that are poison no matter how horrid they may look.
Hottie or not, I'm still flabbergasted at what kind of environment makes a 18 year old girl step onto a podium and start an antisemite tirade. Troubling times.
I'd bet a beer next time we can have one into her having a long lineage of fashness running through her veins. It's not as if people have blue shirts hanging around the house just because.
Ah yes, some google digging reveals she's the daughter of a Falangist.
You owe me a beer, then! :lol: :cheers:
Blue shirts, Falange; so no real nazis. Crypto-fascists at best. :thumbsdown:
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 05:33:46 AM
Spain's new nazi darling.
(https://artear-tn-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/tAkZ_KtpnnvF5saqVIXaHHGUfDk=/767x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/artear/6QZO6ZU5IJAWVOKHIV2ZSNKLII.jpg)
(https://s1.eestatic.com/2021/02/16/espana/politica/559456623_173191418_1706x960.jpg)
Catapulted herself into fame during an antisemite rally last week. She's been charged with incitement of hatred.
She deserves a good spanking.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 19, 2021, 06:44:03 AM
Blue shirts, Falange; so no real nazis. Crypto-fascists at best. :thumbsdown:
I found an interview with her (fascinating character, for all the wrong reasons) where she claims that unlike her father she's a nationalsocialist (also that her father kicked her out of the house for being "too extreme"), and that "I fell in love with fascism when I was 13".
She also seems to have a past as an influencer wannabe before embracing her current nazi persona, which I found interesting (following Tyr's reasoning).
Quote from: celedhring on February 19, 2021, 06:46:26 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 19, 2021, 06:44:03 AM
Blue shirts, Falange; so no real nazis. Crypto-fascists at best. :thumbsdown:
I found an interview with her (fascinating character, for all the wrong reasons) where she claims that unlike her father she's a nationalsocialist (also that her father kicked her out of the house for being "too extreme"), and that "I fell in love with fascism when I was 13".
Still confused I guess, because she mixes up fascism and nazism, like all "good" leftists do. :P
But then, many people are on the waiting list for "delivering a spanking", like the Brain.
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:56:54 AM
I demand left wing hotties to cleanse my palate.
no center-right hottie around? :(
Quote from: viper37 on February 19, 2021, 08:11:49 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:56:54 AM
I demand left wing hotties to cleanse my palate.
no center-right hottie around? :(
Meh. Most of Hollywood.
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2021, 05:56:54 AM
I demand left wing hotties to cleanse my palate.
I second the motion.
:D
As the old adagio goes: "nobody champions Spanish republicanism more strenuously than the Spanish monarchy". An online newspaper has just broke out the story that King Felipe's sisters were vaccinated during a visit to Emirates (to see king emeritus Juan Carlos). :D
:Robespierre:
That's disgraceful <_<
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Retrato_de_Fernando_VII_con_manto_real-Canal_Imperial-1815.jpg)
Everybody desired this man to come be their king...except for the people who had actually met him.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 02, 2021, 02:30:10 PM
:Robespierre:
That's disgraceful <_<
All the modern monarchs have to do is have kids, do ceremonial functions, and stay out of the news. They seem to fail at even that.
Quote from: Valmy on March 02, 2021, 02:32:25 PM
All the modern monarchs have to do is have kids, do ceremonial functions, and stay out of the news. They seem to fail at even that.
The Queen's good at it - it's the kids who are the issue here :lol:
Over here is the father, and the sisters, and the in-laws, and... :P
I mean the whole family oozes sleaze and self-entitlement by now, would be really surprised king Felipe isn't involved in anything.
Quote from: celedhring on March 03, 2021, 05:25:13 AM
Over here is the father, and the sisters, and the in-laws, and... :P
I mean the whole family oozes sleaze and self-entitlement by now, would be really surprised king Felipe isn't involved in anything.
It's also highly hillarious how they try to pass doing the very minimum decent thing to do as an extraordinary display of humility and gracefulness. Like when they announced that they'd send the Crown Princess to a boarding school for the ultra posh in Wales and then said that they'd pay it themselves out of their own assignments. It was like, where do you think those assignments are coming from? And what would you do otherwise, have the state pay it directly for you?
Just gonna leave this here ... :whistle: :goodboy:
(https://preview.redd.it/7dcrrb31yzl61.png?width=960&height=720&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=076315958ccd22be47180af9a8fb97d0260ff08b)
:lol:
I see English wiki just says Catalan now.
Catalan of Spanish citizenship just sounds stupid and draws attention that wouldn't otherwise be there to there being controversy.
Whats the little red dot off the west coast of Sweden? :hmm:
Why does Sicily have it's own Wikipedia?
Quote from: Barrister on March 09, 2021, 12:15:52 PM
Why does Sicily have it's own Wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language)
The Serbia/Croat/Bosniak distinction in Bosnia is very interesting :hmm:
Quote from: Tyr on March 09, 2021, 12:10:36 PM
:lol:
I see English wiki just says Catalan now.
Catalan of Spanish citizenship just sounds stupid and draws attention that wouldn't otherwise be there to there being controversy.
Whats the little red dot off the west coast of Sweden? :hmm:
My guess is it's Orust and Tjörn. AFAIK they don't have their own language Wiki, but I'm not from there.
Portuguese Wiki says nationality is Spanish but also a leading figure of Catalan modernism, not to mention a fervent Catalan nationalist (last point not mentioned in the Galician page :D)
I guess it's a matter of interpretation.
PS: took a look at the Galician page
The map is a great example of a "here's a hair, tell us how you split it" exercise. :P
The Frisian page says Spanish. Contrarian bastards.
Quote from: The Larch on March 03, 2021, 05:59:08 AM
It's also highly hillarious how they try to pass doing the very minimum decent thing to do as an extraordinary display of humility and gracefulness. Like when they announced that they'd send the Crown Princess to a boarding school for the ultra posh in Wales and then said that they'd pay it themselves out of their own assignments. It was like, where do you think those assignments are coming from? And what would you do otherwise, have the state pay it directly for you?
Who builds an ultra posh boarding school in Wales? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 09, 2021, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 03, 2021, 05:59:08 AM
It's also highly hillarious how they try to pass doing the very minimum decent thing to do as an extraordinary display of humility and gracefulness. Like when they announced that they'd send the Crown Princess to a boarding school for the ultra posh in Wales and then said that they'd pay it themselves out of their own assignments. It was like, where do you think those assignments are coming from? And what would you do otherwise, have the state pay it directly for you?
Who builds an ultra posh boarding school in Wales? :huh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_World_Colleges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_World_Colleges)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_College)
What's wrong with Wales? Not posh enough in your mind?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 09, 2021, 12:30:16 PM
Who builds an ultra posh boarding school in Wales? :huh:
Why not? :huh:
It's perfect - lots of countryside, old, draughty country houses no-one can afford etc.
Quote from: Maladict on March 09, 2021, 12:21:43 PM
The Frisian page says Spanish. Contrarian bastards.
Plattdütsch also says Spanish. :D
EDIT: So does Bavarian. However, Allemannian says Catalan.
Quote from: The Larch on March 09, 2021, 12:36:39 PM
What's wrong with Wales? Not posh enough in your mind?
Yeah, where's the snob value?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 09, 2021, 12:43:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 09, 2021, 12:36:39 PM
What's wrong with Wales? Not posh enough in your mind?
Yeah, where's the snob value?
Not every person in Wales is a sheep herder or a coal miner. I mean, the school is in a proper castle and everything, very Hogwartsy. :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 09, 2021, 12:43:48 PM
Yeah, where's the snob value?
Snob value in the UK = countryside. Wellies and barbours etc. It doesn't really matter where in the country because you don't actually ever have to interact with the locals, at most they're just the staff.
The location of the school is broadly irrelevant to the character building boarding school experience (from what I understand) of school sports and bullying.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 09, 2021, 12:51:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 09, 2021, 12:43:48 PM
Yeah, where's the snob value?
Snob value in the UK = countryside. Wellies and barbours etc. It doesn't really matter where in the country because you don't actually ever have to interact with the locals, at most they're just the staff.
The location of the school is broadly irrelevant to the character building boarding school experience (from what I understand) of school sports and bullying.
Didn't Prince Charles study in some place in the boondoncks in Scotland?
Yeah. Same place Sean Connery and Bowie sent their sons.
It's particularly famous for being big on cold showers and outdoor activities like mountaineering etc. IT was set up by a Jewish-German refugee who was inspired by Plato's Republic - and I think particularly a sort of communal, Spartan ethos. Very character building stuff :ph34r:
As shown in the Crown Prince Philip went there and loved it - Charles absolutely loathed it and sent his sons to Eton (before Charles the royals were educated by tutors which is what the really rich did - hence why private schools are "public schools" in the UK). I think UK private schools are normally about character building (bullying), not really education which is why, when combined with their natural dimness, our elites are so often thick as mince.
I guess it's a good thing BoJo's classical education shows up regularly after such a "character building" experience. :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 09, 2021, 01:04:17 PM
Yeah. Same place Sean Connery and Bowie sent their sons.
It's particularly famous for being big on cold showers and outdoor activities like mountaineering etc. IT was set up by a Jewish-German refugee who was inspired by Plato's Republic - and I think particularly a sort of communal, Spartan ethos. Very character building stuff :ph34r:
As shown in the Crown Prince Philip went there and loved it - Charles absolutely loathed it and sent his sons to Eton (before Charles the royals were educated by tutors which is what the really rich did - hence why private schools are "public schools" in the UK). I think UK private schools are normally about character building (bullying), not really education which is why, when combined with their natural dimness, our elites are so often thick as mince.
There is always Summerhill http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/
So, back to the original purpose of the thread. :P
QuoteEU parliament strips Carles Puigdemont and two other Catalans of immunity
Spain seeking extradition related to separatists' role in organising 2017 independence referendum
The European parliament has voted to lift the immunity of the former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont and two of his ministers, taking them a step closer to extradition and prosecution in Spain.
MEPs voted by 400 to 248 with 45 abstentions in the case of Puigdemont and 404 to 247 with 42 abstentions regarding Antoni Comín and Clara Ponsatí, respectively the former health and education ministers in Puigdemont's government.
The three fled to Belgium in 2017 to avoid arrest in relation to their role in organising a 2017 independence referendum deemed illegal by a Spanish court and have been the subject of European arrest warrants issued by Spain.
Spain's foreign minister, Arancha González Laya, said the decision showed that "an MEP can't use their position to avoid justice in their home country and demonstrates the solidity of the Spanish judicial system".
She said it vindicated Madrid's view that "Catalonia's problems will be resolved in Spain, not in Europe".
The vote, however, reflected a further rift in the Spanish coalition government, with the leftwing Unidas Podemos MEPs voting to retain the immunity while their Socialist partners voted for it to be removed.
Nine independence leaders who remained in Catalonia, including the regional vice-president, Oriol Junqueras, received sentences of up to 13 years over their role in the failed bid for independence at the end of a trial in October 2019.
It is expected that new European arrest warrants will be issued on charges of sedition and, in the case of Puigdemont and Comín, misuse of public funds.
Ponsatí lives in Scotland, and Puigdemont and Comín in Belgium. The Belgian courts threw out an arrest warrant against the two in 2018 on grounds that the charge of rebellion brought did not exist in Belgian law. The three were elected to the European parliament in 2019, since when they have enjoyed immunity.
The three told a news conference at the parliament in Brussels that they would appeal against the vote at the the European court of justice, the EU's top court. The move could extend legal proceedings for at least a year. Ponsatí said they had strong legal grounds.
Puigdemont said: "It's a sad day for the European parliament. We have lost our immunity, but the European parliament has lost even more than that: as a result it has also lost European democracy." .
Puigdemont's party, Junts, tweeted: "We will not give up. The political conflict between Catalonia and Spain has stopped being an internal affair. We have brought it to the heart of Europe to continue denouncing the repression and political persecution of the Spanish state."
The appeal will not impede the Spanish courts from issuing a fresh warrant. The question is whether their Belgian counterparts will look on it any more sympathetically than they have before.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 09, 2021, 01:04:17 PM
... hence why private schools are "public schools" in the UK).
I'm in another forum where at least one of the posters are Eton old boys, and a couple of other ones have gone to similarly posh schools. Apparently - according to them - the public school part is that Eton et. al. were founded to educate boys at the crown's expense; so, in fact, to educate the public. The public schools still take in a number of scholarship boys who don't have to pay tuition and so on. Naturally, there's a significant difference between the scholarship boys in their second hand uniforms and the children of the very posh.
Quote from: Jacob on March 09, 2021, 04:29:59 PM
I'm in another forum where at least one of the posters are Eton old boys, and a couple of other ones have gone to similarly posh schools. Apparently - according to them - the public school part is that Eton et. al. were founded to educate boys at the crown's expense; so, in fact, to educate the public. The public schools still take in a number of scholarship boys who don't have to pay tuition and so on. Naturally, there's a significant difference between the scholarship boys in their second hand uniforms and the children of the very posh.
Maybe but I think that's probably a myth - perhaps one more popular among people who went to public school :P
My understanding is that they descend from the difference between public and private education or teaching - public for the public (but there was a fee) v tutors of some sort or private schools for specific trades/liveries/institutions like Merchant Taylors or St Paul's School. But there are still some charity schools that are called charity schools that have some endowment - normally royal and were established to be a charity. The most famous one still has Tudor uniforms, but fees are entirely means-tested and they are excellent schools who have fee-paying students to basically subsidise the rest of the school and generally they're not single sex. I weirdly have a colleague who went to one of those schools on a full scholarship.
I think the other public schools like Eton were open to the public, but not charities and were funded by fees. And still are, public schools have scholarships but not as many as the charity schools because they turn a profit. I think Eton has under 100 scholarships out of about 1,500 students (fees per year are around £50,000). But they have charitable status so they don't pay tax - I'm sure they do some charity work plus the scholarships. I know one person who went to Eton and from what I understand all the students have to do a fixed amount of voluntary hours in the community - I'm sure they do more charity work than that but I don't know what else they do - and admittedly my friend had an awful time at Eton.
Being on a scholarship to a place like eton I'm sure offers great opportunity but must be hellish for the student. Bad enough being rich and going there.
Not remotely the same, but I went to a private Catholic school in 6th grade on scholarship. We all wore uniforms, but mine and my sister's were obviously second-hand, which was noted and mocked. Additionally, I wore the cheaper style of Nike, which was also noted.
I got into more fist fights there in one year that I did at my previous school in the five I was there. I hated every moment of it.
Quote from: merithyn on March 09, 2021, 05:55:22 PM
Not remotely the same, but I went to a private Catholic school in 6th grade on scholarship. We all wore uniforms, but mine and my sister's were obviously second-hand, which was noted and mocked. Additionally, I wore the cheaper style of Nike, which was also noted.
I got into more fist fights there in one year that I did at my previous school in the five I was there. I hated every moment of it.
Yeah there's a bit cultural difference here over it. I mostly went to school in Scotland where you don't normally have school uniforms. But it's the norm in England to have school uniforms (normally just a poloshirt/jumper and smart trousers and shoes) and all of my English friends are convinced it stops/reduces bullying about kids who can't afford cool/fashionable/new clothes. And in fairness I think some council offer some financial support for school uniforms.
But I think that's nonsense and disagree with uniforms but it's very weird here.
Quote from: merithyn on March 09, 2021, 05:55:22 PM
I got into more fist fights there in one year that I did at my previous school in the five I was there. I hated every moment of it.
That was my experience at public school. No fights at all throughout elementary school, several in middle school.
So, there's lots of talk that we should reform our hate speech laws, because they are way too encompassing and limiting in certain instances (I agree, but it's a difficult balance to find). Anyway, Vox - Spain's far right party - have decided to enter that debate and dutifully introduced a motion to amend the law removing "racism and anti-semitism" as hate speech :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 09, 2021, 05:06:09 PM
Maybe but I think that's probably a myth - perhaps one more popular among people who went to public school :P
My understanding is that they descend from the difference between public and private education or teaching - public for the public (but there was a fee) v tutors of some sort or private schools for specific trades/liveries/institutions like Merchant Taylors or St Paul's School. But there are still some charity schools that are called charity schools that have some endowment - normally royal and were established to be a charity. The most famous one still has Tudor uniforms, but fees are entirely means-tested and they are excellent schools who have fee-paying students to basically subsidise the rest of the school and generally they're not single sex. I weirdly have a colleague who went to one of those schools on a full scholarship.
I think the other public schools like Eton were open to the public, but not charities and were funded by fees. And still are, public schools have scholarships but not as many as the charity schools because they turn a profit. I think Eton has under 100 scholarships out of about 1,500 students (fees per year are around £50,000). But they have charitable status so they don't pay tax - I'm sure they do some charity work plus the scholarships. I know one person who went to Eton and from what I understand all the students have to do a fixed amount of voluntary hours in the community - I'm sure they do more charity work than that but I don't know what else they do - and admittedly my friend had an awful time at Eton.
I'm in no position to argue this, but fair enough :bowler:
Quote from: merithyn on March 09, 2021, 05:55:22 PM
Not remotely the same, but I went to a private Catholic school in 6th grade on scholarship. We all wore uniforms, but mine and my sister's were obviously second-hand, which was noted and mocked. Additionally, I wore the cheaper style of Nike, which was also noted.
I got into more fist fights there in one year that I did at my previous school in the five I was there. I hated every moment of it.
That's how 6th grade is in any school.
I can't recall any serious bullying at my (fairly expensive) private school. There was this one kid who sort of tried to be a bully, but it was hard to stay mad at him after he overdosed on heroin while we were still in high school.
Yeah, did my last two years of high school at a private Jesuit school. It was all-boys, wear a jacket and tie kind of school. Being catholic there were a sizeable number of kids who attended on scholarships. It could be kind of cliquey but I don't recall any bullying.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 10, 2021, 02:27:19 PM
I can't recall any serious bullying at my (fairly expensive) private school. There was this one kid who sort of tried to be a bully, but it was hard to stay mad at him after he overdosed on heroin while we were still in high school.
I think it is more of a British thing. Hazing and bullying building character and all that. It was brought into Canadian culture as well. It was a huge issue on sports teams until not so long ago.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 10, 2021, 02:27:19 PM
I can't recall any serious bullying at my (fairly expensive) private school. There was this one kid who sort of tried to be a bully, but it was hard to stay mad at him after he overdosed on heroin while we were still in high school.
Fuck :(
The bullying was literally institutionalised here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I can't comment on what it's like now because this has long been banned. But I have a friend who went to Eton and had an absolutely horrendous time, as did his older brother. I think it's a very brutal environment if you don't fit in, maybe like all high schools but more because it's 24/7?
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on March 10, 2021, 02:27:19 PM
I can't recall any serious bullying at my (fairly expensive) private school. There was this one kid who sort of tried to be a bully, but it was hard to stay mad at him after he overdosed on heroin while we were still in high school.
Fuck :(
The bullying was literally institutionalised here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I can't comment on what it's like now because this has long been banned. But I have a friend who went to Eton and had an absolutely horrendous time, as did his older brother. I think it's a very brutal environment if you don't fit in, maybe like all high schools but more because it's 24/7?
Is that the origin for the slur for homosexual?
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 10, 2021, 02:37:45 PM
Is that the origin for the slur for homosexual?
I don't think so. Because we got the slur from the US - it wasn't a thing when I was younger (main slur then was "poof"). And here you can still buy faggots (type of meatball) in the shop and a fag is still a cigarette. But it is maybe where the Americans got the slur from?
But the American slur is becoming a lot more common so those meanings might not survive.
Mr Brain's Pork Faggots. :mmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 02:40:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 10, 2021, 02:37:45 PM
Is that the origin for the slur for homosexual?
I don't think so. Because we got the slur from the US - it wasn't a thing when I was younger (main slur then was "poof"). And here you can still buy faggots (type of meatball) in the shop and a fag is still a cigarette. But it is maybe where the Americans got the slur from?
But the American slur is becoming a lot more common so those meanings might not survive.
Yeah, I think fag for gays s a really recent thing. One of the imports with the massive increase in American TV sine the late 90s.
I can't remember that being used at all when I was a kid. As you say puffter and variations thereof were it.
A lot of American English originates with public school, e.g. Soccer, so could well be.
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
That seems surprising. I was in a school fight, I remember a couple of others that other kids were in. They were spur of the moment kinds of things, not "meet me by the flagpole at 3" kind of deals.
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
It is remarkable how much that has changed in my lifetime. Growing up in a small mill town near Vancouver, there were fights all though high school. In high school I remember a guy from Vancouver travelling out to my school to have a fight with a friend of mine, who had a much deserved rep as being very tough. The fight did not end well for the guy from Vancouver.
I was challenged to fights pretty much every weekend. Many of which I was able to avoid - mainly smaller guys just trying to prove how tough they were. But every once in a while grown men from the mills would pick fights with us. I had my two front teeth knocked out in one such fight in grade 12, by a beer bottle flung at us from the crowd which had gathered to watch. Years later I learned who had thrown it - turned out to be a friend at the time who missed the other guy... It was a very different world back then.
There were probably some mild fights in the lower grades of elementary school, but very rarely. I can't remember hearing about any specific incident. No one was even close to fighting in high school, if anyone had tried to start a fight then people would just have looked at him like "are you 6 years old?".
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
Yeah - similar I never saw any fights in my comprehensive state schools. There was some bullying for sure, but it was not violent - I don't remember any fights.
I kind of love high school films but always wonder if American high schools are how they're depicted because it is crazy :lol: :ph34r:
I'll interrupt the school bullying thread for some Spanish news. I think we just had the living embodiment of the "that escalated quickly" meme in Spanish politics.
- So, in Murcia some members of the government secretly got Covid shots. When this was exposed, Cs - who are the junior member of a coalition with PP there - demanded a thorough investigation. They were ignored so yesterday they launched a motion of no-confidence against the executive (of which they are part), with the backing of the opposition.
- Immediately the president of the Madrid region (also in a coallition with Cs) dissolved the regional parliament and called for a snap election, sacking all regional ministers from Cs, saying she wanted to avoid the same to happen to her (Cs said they had no plans of doing it).
- However, the opposition introduced a motion of no-confidence before the electoral decree was published. Cs, pissed off, decided to back it. The issue will be hashed out in the Supreme Court, but right now the Madrid parliament doesn't consider itself dissolved (an active motion of no-confidence prevents an election from being called).
- Then another motion of no-confidence was filed in the region of Castilla-León, where Cs and PP also had a coallition.
So some guys take some Covid shots on the side and a few days later the conservative space in Spain is exploding.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
Yeah - similar I never saw any fights in my comprehensive state schools. There was some bullying for sure, but it was not violent - I don't remember any fights.
I kind of love high school films but always wonder if American high schools are how they're depicted because it is crazy :lol: :ph34r:
There were a fair number of fights that I recall at my high school or in the backwoods. I do remember leaving class at least once to see a fight in the foyer. -_-
Meritxell Serret, one of the Catalan ministers that fled to Belgium in 2017, has returned to Spain and turned herself in. It's been pretty clear for a while that she wouldn't be facing jail time (the 2019 sentence excluded her department from actively working in organizing the referendum, and the Supreme Court had dropped her arrest warrant), so I wonder why she hadn't done it before.
She still faces 18 months of barring from office for her role in passing the independence decrees, but that's about it.
Quote from: celedhring on March 11, 2021, 04:07:21 AM
So some guys take some Covid shots on the side and a few days later the conservative space in Spain is exploding.
So is it for the other parties to negotiate a coalition or do they generally go to elections?
And what's motivating it from Cs? Are they belatedly trying to recover their reputation after going into government - I think in at least a couple of regions - with the PP, relying on the support of Vox?
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2021, 05:39:07 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 11, 2021, 04:07:21 AM
So some guys take some Covid shots on the side and a few days later the conservative space in Spain is exploding.
So is it for the other parties to negotiate a coalition or do they generally go to elections?
And what's motivating it from Cs? Are they belatedly trying to recover their reputation after going into government - I think in at least a couple of regions - with the PP, relying on the support of Vox?
When it's the opposition filing the motion of no confidence, they have to agree to a candidate and vote him/her in. No election is triggered.
And yeah, Cs is probably trying to shake things up after their dismal electoral results and trying to appear more centrist. Meanwhile PP are smelling blood and are trying to devour them.
I think it's a risky move both for PP and Cs to openly go to war. With Cs gone, PP will find itself having to deal with Vox directly (so far they have avoided including them in any government), and Cs can easily become irrelevant.
The thing with Cs is that they are trying to appeal the voters they pissed off with their flirting with the far right, and will imho instead just piss off the voters that stayed with them when they did it.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2021, 05:39:07 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 11, 2021, 04:07:21 AM
So some guys take some Covid shots on the side and a few days later the conservative space in Spain is exploding.
So is it for the other parties to negotiate a coalition or do they generally go to elections?
Do you mean in Murcia or in Madrid? In Murcia, if the motion of no-confidence is successful (which it should, as Cs + PSOE would have a majority, but you can never rule out defections in these situations) a new regional president put forward by the promoters of the motion is installed, in this case the Cs candidate. In Madrid they might have a bit of legal wrangling before they decide what takes precedence, if the dissolution of the chamber or the motions of no-confindence presented.
QuoteAnd what's motivating it from Cs? Are they belatedly trying to recover their reputation after going into government - I think in at least a couple of regions - with the PP, relying on the support of Vox?
Theoretically the Murcia thing is a strictly regional affair, with no intended repercussions elsewhere (Cs representatives stated that they had no plans for such motions in other regions where they govern in coalition with PP, such as Andalucía), but it's pretty obvious that PP will now have trust issues, which in Madrid were taken to the extreme (theirs was always an uneasy alliance there, as the regional president, a fairly controversial subject, always felt much more comfortable dealing with Vox than with Cs, and it seems that she was ready to concede a key issue to Vox in the regional budget that Cs had stated that they'd never support no matter what).
Now, in broader terms, Cs had to do something, almost anything, to prevent being completely swallowed by PP, which was the likeliest outcome in the current situation, and this move might have been it. By switching from supporting PP to working with PSOE they can try to show that they can work both with parties to their right and left and thus become a key ally for governance almost in every single government in the country, from the local (another no-confidence motion was presented for the Murcia city hall) to the regional and national. Now it remains to be seen if Cs can weather the storm (there had already been some indiscreet rumours about some of their leaders flirting with openly joining PP soon, in a clear case of rats jumping a sinking ship) and retain their core electorate without loosing much from their right flank.
I love that the Madrid regional parliament refuses to consider itself dissolved. I really really want this to take an English turn and somehow end up with a deposed monarch (we can dispense with the beheading :P).
Quote from: celedhring on March 11, 2021, 07:12:16 AM
I love that the Madrid regional parliament refuses to consider itself dissolved. I really really want this to take an English turn and somehow end up with a deposed monarch (we can dispense with the beheading :P).
It seems they've now accepted the dissolution, but not the call for new elections. :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on March 11, 2021, 07:12:16 AM
I love that the Madrid regional parliament refuses to consider itself dissolved. I really really want this to take an English turn and somehow end up with a deposed monarch (we can dispense with the beheading :P).
Coward :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
Yeah - similar I never saw any fights in my comprehensive state schools. There was some bullying for sure, but it was not violent - I don't remember any fights.
I kind of love high school films but always wonder if American high schools are how they're depicted because it is crazy :lol: :ph34r:
I am really surprised by all of you guys having a peaceful schools. Fighting and bullying were endemic at my school. First day of middle school (6th grade) someone on the bus threw my bookbag out of the window and smashed one of my friends in the face with lock. Once, in sixth grade some bullies trapped a kid in the bathroom and stomped on him till one of his testicles ruptured. Kid never came back. In 7th grade a kid pushed me and tripped me at the same time causing me to go down and break my arm. I got the shit kicked out of me pretty much every day. Sanity started going downhill at that point.
Yeah, I can't imagine a school without fighting.
Its less in bullying that I saw fighting, that tends to be rather more psychological, any physical bullying would be cracked down on hard. This often led to weird stuff where young kids would bully much bigger older kids, almost hoping he'd snap and smack the shit out of them.
Rather fighting was usually seen, in boys, to see who is hardest and gain kudos from there.
In girls its due to petty bullshit, to do their best to murder the slag who did something or other to insult their name.
There was no proper fighting at the schools I was at. Occasional little squabbles maybe. Also, don't recall any bullying going on in my classes.
No real fighting at the schools I went to either, just the occasional flare-up due to someone losing their temper. There was a lot of banter>piss-taking>verbal bullying; most of that occurring in the same year group with the younger and older years more or less ignored.
More or less as Richard and Syt. By high school, fighting was extremely rare. I only recall one event, in which I was not involved, during physical education nonetheless.
Elementary and middle school had more push and shoving, some kicks (no roundhouse kicks or mawashi geri of course) so no real fighting.
As for bullying, mostly psychological I guess, since most wannabe bullies would understand when pushed against a wall. Some would still manage to put the blame on the potential victim.
Taunts and trash talking, yes. A common trend linked them to the fortunes and vicissitudes of supported football teams. :P
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2021, 09:00:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
Yeah - similar I never saw any fights in my comprehensive state schools. There was some bullying for sure, but it was not violent - I don't remember any fights.
I kind of love high school films but always wonder if American high schools are how they're depicted because it is crazy :lol: :ph34r:
I am really surprised by all of you guys having a peaceful schools. Fighting and bullying were endemic at my school. First day of middle school (6th grade) someone on the bus threw my bookbag out of the window and smashed one of my friends in the face with lock. Once, in sixth grade some bullies trapped a kid in the bathroom and stomped on him till one of his testicles ruptured. Kid never came back. In 7th grade a kid pushed me and tripped me at the same time causing me to go down and break my arm. I got the shit kicked out of me pretty much every day. Sanity started going downhill at that point.
:(
Raz, that's bad.
Elementary school was pretty peaceful, and i went to 4 :D. high school was hit or miss. the first one I went to was peaceful. but it was a new school the collected a bunch of farm kids. Second high school was in the city, and much larger. two thousand kids. that one had a few fights. nothing major and most blew over. the one thing i do remember is the few girl fights. those were scary. no rules. head stomping was normal.
Quote from: mongers on March 11, 2021, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2021, 09:00:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
Yeah - similar I never saw any fights in my comprehensive state schools. There was some bullying for sure, but it was not violent - I don't remember any fights.
I kind of love high school films but always wonder if American high schools are how they're depicted because it is crazy :lol: :ph34r:
I am really surprised by all of you guys having a peaceful schools. Fighting and bullying were endemic at my school. First day of middle school (6th grade) someone on the bus threw my bookbag out of the window and smashed one of my friends in the face with lock. Once, in sixth grade some bullies trapped a kid in the bathroom and stomped on him till one of his testicles ruptured. Kid never came back. In 7th grade a kid pushed me and tripped me at the same time causing me to go down and break my arm. I got the shit kicked out of me pretty much every day. Sanity started going downhill at that point.
:(
Raz, that's bad.
That is terrible Raz. :(
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 10, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2021, 05:26:54 PM
I don't recall a single real fight in all of my average elementary school (Denmark) or sort of poshish but still public high school (Canada). There was some bullying in elementary school (one girl had to transfer out because the other girls were mean to her, though it went completely over my head) and I'm sure people were shits to one another in high school too, but nothing that's even remotely near the "common wisdom" of the internet with kids fighting and bullying each other as an inescapable fact of life. I mean, I never even once heard of anyone getting in a fight at school, even as a rumour.
I kind of love high school films but always wonder if American high schools are how they're depicted because it is crazy :lol: :ph34r:
They are caricatures, but like most have a kernel of truth.
Fighting was for Middle School. By High School everybody was well adjusted enough there were not very many fights.
Also it was the mid 1990s so we were all too cool for school...even fighting.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2021, 09:00:40 AM
I am really surprised by all of you guys having a peaceful schools. Fighting and bullying were endemic at my school. First day of middle school (6th grade) someone on the bus threw my bookbag out of the window and smashed one of my friends in the face with lock. Once, in sixth grade some bullies trapped a kid in the bathroom and stomped on him till one of his testicles ruptured. Kid never came back. In 7th grade a kid pushed me and tripped me at the same time causing me to go down and break my arm. I got the shit kicked out of me pretty much every day. Sanity started going downhill at that point.
Ah yeah man. Right there with you. I got the shit beat out of me all the damn time from about 5th grade to 8th grade and the teachers back then had this laissez-faire attitude about it. Nobody ever did anything about it. I don't really want to tell stories about it though, because it kind of sucked and was humiliating.
I am honestly shocked at how little bullying my on the spectrum son gets. A kid like him back when I was in school would have been shit on constantly. But the kids there are actually really cool with him. SOCIETY HAS GONE TO HELL!!!11
Quote from: Valmy on March 11, 2021, 03:19:18 PM
I am honestly shocked at how little bullying my on the spectrum son gets. A kid like him back when I was in school would have been shit on constantly. But the kids there are actually really cool with him.
That's great to hear :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on March 11, 2021, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 11, 2021, 09:00:40 AM
I am really surprised by all of you guys having a peaceful schools. Fighting and bullying were endemic at my school. First day of middle school (6th grade) someone on the bus threw my bookbag out of the window and smashed one of my friends in the face with lock. Once, in sixth grade some bullies trapped a kid in the bathroom and stomped on him till one of his testicles ruptured. Kid never came back. In 7th grade a kid pushed me and tripped me at the same time causing me to go down and break my arm. I got the shit kicked out of me pretty much every day. Sanity started going downhill at that point.
Ah yeah man. Right there with you. I got the shit beat out of me all the damn time from about 5th grade to 8th grade and the teachers back then had this laissez-faire attitude about it. Nobody ever did anything about it. I don't really want to tell stories about it though, because it kind of sucked and was humiliating.
I am honestly shocked at how little bullying my on the spectrum son gets. A kid like him back when I was in school would have been shit on constantly. But the kids there are actually really cool with him. SOCIETY HAS GONE TO HELL!!!11
I got the shit beat out of me around that time too. I was the only "white" kid in the school who did not come from an Anglo background and the Anglo kids never let me forget it. My friends were the Sikh kids - much more protection in a group. And then I became very large by about grade 9. My Sikh friends and I were never picked on again - in part because my Sikh friends also became quite large. :D Instead I had to put up with the Bullshit of kids trying to take a run at me to show how tough they were. And then adults who came to our parties to pick up the girls that were there, picking fights. Yeah ugliness upon ugliness.
Quote from: The Larch on March 11, 2021, 07:00:12 AMIn Murcia, if the motion of no-confidence is successful (which it should, as Cs + PSOE would have a majority, but you can never rule out defections in these situations) a new regional president put forward by the promoters of the motion is installed, in this case the Cs candidate.
As we say over here, I know them as if I had given birth to them. :lol: Apparently 3 Cs regional MPs in Murcia had a sudden change of heart and won't support the motion of no-confidence, which makes its success impossible. I wonder how PP has this talent to find cooperative people for this in other parties... :hmm:
Christ, they have such an uncanny talent for sleaze, if I wasn't so nauseated by them I'd be genuinely impressed. :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on March 12, 2021, 08:46:32 AM
Christ, they have such an uncanny talent for sleaze, if I wasn't so nauseated by them I'd be genuinely impressed. :lol:
Wait for it, there's even more sleaziness around! Turns out that Vox kicked out 3 of their regional MPs for being too nosy about the party's finances, and these 3 MPs are now discussing amongst themselves to see if they join the no-confindence motion. :lol:
Guys, this is a thread about school fighting. Take this Spanish Political Shit to the proper thread, like one titled "Junior High School Fights"
Quote from: PDH on March 12, 2021, 12:36:37 PM
Guys, this is a thread about school fighting. Take this Spanish Political Shit to the proper thread, like one titled "Junior High School Fights"
Is there is meaningful difference between the two?
In even more weird political movements caused by the recent earthquake, Pablo Iglesias has resigned his VP spot in the government in order to run as candidate in the Madrid regional elections. Now that was unexpected and rather puzzling.
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2021, 06:42:36 AM
In even more weird political movements caused by the recent earthquake, Pablo Iglesias has resigned his VP spot in the government in order to run as candidate in the Madrid regional elections. Now that was unexpected and rather puzzling.
Any relation to Julio Iglesias? :P
Quote from: Syt on March 15, 2021, 06:45:23 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2021, 06:42:36 AM
In even more weird political movements caused by the recent earthquake, Pablo Iglesias has resigned his VP spot in the government in order to run as candidate in the Madrid regional elections. Now that was unexpected and rather puzzling.
Any relation to Julio Iglesias? :P
Nope, it's a relatively common surname. :P
Aw. :(
The new VP will be Yolanda Rodríguez, the Minister of Employment, who's so far seemed to me one of the most competent ministers in the government, certainly the best of the Podemos lot.
Will see where this ends up, since I don't think Pablo Iglesias is the kind of guy that relinquishes power without ulterior calculations. I see the need for Podemos to shore up the results in Madrid, where polls have been disastrous for them, but that's a big bet.
Ayuso, the current Madrid president, has already tweeted "COMMUNISM OR FREEDOM". Two days ago, before Iglesias had announced he was running she had merely tweeted "SOCIALISM OR FREEDOM" :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 07:22:10 AM
The new VP will be Yolanda Rodríguez, the Minister of Employment, who's so far seemed to me one of the most competent ministers in the government, certainly the best of the Podemos lot.
It's Yolanda Díaz. :P I'd have expected him to raise Irene Montero instead, picking Yolanda as his "successor" as the public face of Podemos in the government speaks well of him at least, even if she's not 100% Podemos (she comes from IU, but left the party at some point after joining the government, and AFAIK she has not joined Podemos, so she's kinda-sorta independent).
QuoteWill see where this ends up, since I don't think Pablo Iglesias is the kind of guy that relinquishes power without ulterior calculations. I see the need for Podemos to shore up the results in Madrid, where polls have been disastrous for them, but that's a big bet.
Yeah, there must have been some kind of backroom deal ahead of the decission, otherwise it's quite reckless as he's such a divisive figure in the left, when what is needed for it to succeed is unity. It certainly puts Errejón in a hard spot of having to support him, maybe that's his real objective. :P
QuoteAyuso, the current Madrid president, has already tweeted "COMMUNISM OR FREEDOM". Two days ago, before Iglesias had announced he was running she had merely tweeted "SOCIALISM OR FREEDOM" :lol:
She's such a troll, she has already said in a press conference that Spain is indebted to her because she achieved the feat of taking Iglesias out of the government.
On a less SHIT HITS FAN news, President Sánchez has met with Macron today and - among other things - they have signed a double nationality treaty between both countries. It's the first of such treaties that Spain signs with a non-Latin American nation (and I believe France has also been rather restrictive, too).
The Valls Accord :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 15, 2021, 04:33:38 PM
The Valls Accord :)
Yes, his name came first to my mind, now he can run again for French office! :lol:
FWIW, it's officially called The Montalban Agreement.
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:35:57 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 15, 2021, 04:33:38 PM
The Valls Accord :)
Yes, his name came first to my mind, now he can run again for French office! :lol:
FWIW, it's officially called The Montalban Agreement.
:w00t:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Fantasy_Island_Ricardo_Montalban_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Fantasy_Island_Ricardo_Montalban_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:30:26 PM
On a less SHIT HITS FAN news, President Sánchez has met with Macron today and - among other things - they have signed a double nationality treaty between both countries. It's the first of such treaties that Spain signs with a non-Latin American nation (and I believe France has also been rather restrictive, too).
Spain has the same arrangements with Portugal, Andorra, the Philippines and Equatorial Guinea. :P
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2021, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:35:57 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 15, 2021, 04:33:38 PM
The Valls Accord :)
Yes, his name came first to my mind, now he can run again for French office! :lol:
FWIW, it's officially called The Montalban Agreement.
:w00t:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Fantasy_Island_Ricardo_Montalban_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Fantasy_Island_Ricardo_Montalban_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Montauban, sorry. Me bad. :P
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2021, 04:39:15 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:30:26 PM
On a less SHIT HITS FAN news, President Sánchez has met with Macron today and - among other things - they have signed a double nationality treaty between both countries. It's the first of such treaties that Spain signs with a non-Latin American nation (and I believe France has also been rather restrictive, too).
Spain has the same arrangements with Portugal, Andorra, the Philippines and Equatorial Guinea. :P
All former colonies, too :P
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:41:07 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 15, 2021, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:35:57 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 15, 2021, 04:33:38 PM
The Valls Accord :)
Yes, his name came first to my mind, now he can run again for French office! :lol:
FWIW, it's officially called The Montalban Agreement.
:w00t:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Fantasy_Island_Ricardo_Montalban_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Fantasy_Island_Ricardo_Montalban_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Montauban, sorry. Me bad. :P
:grr:
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:41:33 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2021, 04:39:15 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:30:26 PM
On a less SHIT HITS FAN news, President Sánchez has met with Macron today and - among other things - they have signed a double nationality treaty between both countries. It's the first of such treaties that Spain signs with a non-Latin American nation (and I believe France has also been rather restrictive, too).
Spain has the same arrangements with Portugal, Andorra, the Philippines and Equatorial Guinea. :P
All former colonies, too :P
You son of a bitch!
Quote from: celedhring on March 15, 2021, 04:30:26 PM
On a less SHIT HITS FAN news, President Sánchez has met with Macron today and - among other things - they have signed a double nationality treaty between both countries. It's the first of such treaties that Spain signs with a non-Latin American nation (and I believe France has also been rather restrictive, too).
France has not been restrictive for quite a while (living memory). You may be thinking of Germany. :P
As a matter of fact, even Germany allows dual citizenship for EU citizens nowadays.
PS: too late for the Hernandez brothers (Lucas and Théo) who were once possible candidates for both national football teams
So, it looks like we're a global power in polarization <_<
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eyd2lccXMAMj7y1?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Taken from: https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/american-affective-polarization-in-comparative-perspective/1E3584B482D51DB25FFFB37A8044F204
Dutch are chill.
Yo, cel, do you guys really need a sign for this? :D
(https://preview.redd.it/jdjieg9htss61.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=5bc25876822b2d3d3ef8e0daccb721e7b6ffc28d)
:lol:
That village's council has admitted they put up the sign wanting it to go viral. They reportedly have to pick up tons of discarded condoms in that area every week.
:lol:
Quote from: celedhring on April 11, 2021, 03:46:36 AM
So, it looks like we're a global power in polarization <_<
-graph-
Dutch are chill.
It probably has more to do with having a very fractured political system. Given there are 15 other parties, some of them closely aligned with yours, you're bound to feel positive/neutral towards some of them.
So, today is the 90th anniversary of the proclamation of the Second Spanish Republic.
It ended with a tragedy, and I believe it has been excessively romanticized by part of the Spanish left, but at the same time it was possibly the biggest jump forward of Spain towards liberalism since 1812 (which also ultimately failed). Free and proper elections, abortion, laicism, women's vote, divorce... those things were unthinkable just a few years prior - and would become unthinkable again after 1939.
Concur about it all. It seems that this country can only take big steps in progress after a dramatic failure int he first try. And to add to the issue of its excessive romantization by the left, it's also ironic how it is still somehow demonized by the right even to this day. It's truly part of our own brand of culture wars.
Things are getting heated up over here. Yesterday we had death threats being mailed to the Interior minister, the head of the Guardia Civil and Pablo Iglesias, the leader of Podemos:
QuoteSpanish minister and leftist leader sent letters with death threats and bullets
"Your time is running out", reads the message for Pablo Iglesias of Unidas Podemos. Interior Ministry chief Fernando Grande-Marlaska and the head of the Civil Guard received similar packages
Two political leaders and the head of a law-enforcement agency in Spain have received letters containing death threats and bullets, according to reports to which EL PAÍS has had access and to information provided by the Interior Ministry.
The targets are María Gámez, head of the Civil Guard; Interior Minister Fernando Grande-Marlaska of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Pablo Iglesias, head of the leftist party Unidas Podemos and a candidate in the upcoming Madrid regional election, a race that he joined after stepping down as a deputy prime minister from the PSOE-Unidas Podemos coalition government.
"You have 10 days to resign. The days of laughing at us are over. National Police. Civil Guard. Time is not on your side for the taponazos [very loud gunfire or explosion]," reads an anonymous letter postmarked April 19 and addressed to Grande-Marlaska. Inside the envelope were two 7.62x51mm bullets, according to the police report filed by the minister. An investigation is underway to identify the sender.
Civil Guard chief Gámez received a similar, handwritten message a day earlier, although it was also postmarked April 19. In this case, there was no mention of police forces although it used the term taponazo once more. There was one 7.62mm bullet inside the envelope.
Sources at Unidas Podemos on Thursday confirmed that Pablo Iglesias had received a letter containing "a serious death threat" but had not yet filed a formal complaint. The same sources added that this is not the first time that Iglesias has been sent messages of this nature.
"The Interior Ministry has received a letter addressed to me containing death threats against me and my family," the political leader revealed later on Twitter. He included an image of the missive, which carried the following message written in capital letters and without punctuation marks: "Pablo Iglesias Turrión, you have let our parents and grandparents die. Your wife, your parents and you are sentenced to the death penalty. Your time is running out." The party originally said that it contained two rounds of the type used with Spanish CETME rifles, but Iglesias himself said there were four.
"This is just another consequence of normalizing and whitewashing the hate speech of the far right. And it is also a consequence of impunity," said Iglesias on Twitter, lamenting that there has been "not a single arrest" over the attack on his party's headquarters in Cartagena (Murcia) with a Molotov cocktail in early April.
Iglesias also noted that a former member of La Legión, an elite military unit, "got off scot-free" after firing live ammunition at photographs of government members in front of a camera and laughing about it. He also mentioned the lack of legal consequences for the retired members of the military who talked about executing 26 million "red" Spaniards on a social media chat group. "How can they not feel absolute impunity to send us death threats with assault weapon bullets?"
Iglesias went on to say that the attacks are not just against him and his family but about "you, your right to vote for whomever you like and to exercise your freedom. They are threatening democracy."
The PSOE candidate in the Madrid election, Ángel Gabilondo, turned to Twitter to show support for all three targets of the death threats. "Hate speech and divisiveness have very serious consequences for our democracy. Let's avoid an escalation of cruelty."
Mónica García, the contender for the small leftist party Más Madrid, wrote that "there is no room for hate and violence" in society.
This morning there was a radio debate for the Madrid regional elections, in which Pablo Iglesias is taking part, and when right at the start the topic came up all participants condemned the death threat sent to him, except the Vox candidate, which not only didn't condemn it but even doubted its veracity. After this, Iglesias left, with the debate host as well as the other participants in the debate trying to convince him to stay and the Vox candidate mocking them on air. They took a break and after that the other two leftist candidates decided to leave as well, with the Ciudadanos candidate trying to convince them to stay. At this point the host declared that it was better to abandon the debate, with the Vox candidate being heard in the background complaining about "media dictatorship".
During the whole fracas, the regional wing of PP (whose candidate didn't take part in the debate, as she only accepted to take part in the first debate that took place earlier this week) sent a mocking tweet aimed at Iglesias' quitting the debate, which was deleted shortly afterwards but not soon enough for it not to make the online rounds. It remains to be seen what will happen with the two tv debates that were still expected to be held next week, as the leftist candidates have stated that they won't take part in any new debate in which Vox participates. The rest of the campaign (voting will take place in early may) will be quite... interesting, to say the least.
Edit: Here's an article on the debate fracas, and with some more background info.
QuotePablo Iglesias walks out of Madrid debate in clash over death threat
Rocío Monasterio of far-right Vox party had cast doubt on threat sent to Podemos leader and his family
The Unidas Podemos leader and former Spanish deputy prime minister, Pablo Iglesias, has walked out of a Madrid regional election debate after the candidate for the far-right Vox party cast doubt on the death threat he and his family had received along with four assault rifle bullets.
Iglesias revealed on Thursday that he had been mailed the bullets and a threat, which read: "You have let our parents and grandparents die. Your wife, your parents and you are sentenced to capital punishment. Your time is running out."
Similar threats were sent to Fernando Grande-Marlaska, who serves as interior minister in Spain's Socialist-led coalition government, and María Gámez, the head of the Guardia Civil police force.
Iglesias was appearing in a Cadena Ser radio debate on Friday ahead of next month's Madrid's regional election when the Vox candidate, Rocío Monasterio, accused him of hypocrisy for refusing to condemn the assaults her party members had suffered on the campaign trail.
She said Vox condemned all violence, but "Spaniards just don't believe anything this government says." She had also sought to cast doubt on Iglesias in an interview earlier on Friday, when she said: "I don't believe much of what Pablo Iglesias says."
Iglesias, who left the central government to fight the Madrid election, had asked Monasterio to retract her comments when the debate began. When she refused, he said the debate risked "whitewashing the extreme right" and normalising their arguments, and left the studio.
The Socialist party candidate, Ángel Gabilondo, and Mónica García, who is running for the leftwing Más Madrid party, pulled out of the debate in solidarity with Iglesias.
Spain's prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, condemned the death threats and described Iglesias, Grande-Marlaska and Gámez as committed public servants. "In the face of any disagreement, words," he said. "In the face of threats and violence, justice and democracy."
The election, which will be held on 4 May, has served to aggravate Spain's already bitter political tensions. The region's incumbent president, Isabel Díaz Ayuso of the conservative People's party, is expected to retain power, but Vox has attempted to win over rightwing voters with another aggressive and provocative campaign.
Riot police had to separate protesters and Vox supporters earlier this month after the party staged a rally in the traditionally leftwing working-class Madrid neighbourhood of Vallecas.
Prosecutors also opened an investigation on Tuesday to determine whether a Vox campaign poster constituted a hate crime. The poster contrasted a picture of an older white woman with that of a hooded, masked, and dark-skinned male.
Its caption incorrectly suggested that refugees and migrant children in state care receive 10 times more in benefits each month than the average Spanish grandmother does in pension payments.
It is not the first time Vox has sought to demonise foreigners. In the run-up to the general election in November 2019, its leader, Santiago Abascal, falsely suggested that 70% of gang rapes in Spain were committed by foreigners.
Monasterio had claimed earlier in the day that unaccompanied foreign minors made the streets unsafe and posed "a serious problem in our neighbourhoods".
Query: why is Madrid right-wing?
Is it just the region thing - while the city is left-wing? :hmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 04, 2021, 02:33:49 PM
Query: why is Madrid right-wing?
Is it just the region thing - while the city is left-wing? :hmm:
It's more complicated. The southern areas of the region are lefty, they are pretty working class. The north and west of the region leans right, generally wealthier areas. The city splits similarly - south is left, north is right - and it's close to 50/50.
The Madrid left also has no feet left after repeatedly shoothing them with hollow-point ammo during the past two decades.
Quote from: celedhring on May 04, 2021, 02:42:43 PMsouth is left, north is right
Sounds like that one WW1 game. :P
Quote from: celedhring on May 04, 2021, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 04, 2021, 02:33:49 PM
Query: why is Madrid right-wing?
Is it just the region thing - while the city is left-wing? :hmm:
It's more complicated. The southern areas of the region are lefty, they are pretty working class. The north and west of the region leans right, generally wealthier areas. The city splits similarly - south is left, north is right - and it's close to 50/50.
The Madrid left also has no feet left after repeatedly shoothing them with hollow-point ammo during the past two decades.
Add to that that PP has shamelessly molded the region in their image for decades already, massive corruption notwithstanding, which their electorate doesn't seem to care the slightest about. It's not such a surprise, they've been running the region for close to 30 years already. They could put a monkey int he ballot (and Ayuso might be the closest to it that we've seen so far) and throngs of people will vote for them. Madrid itself is a pretty right-wing city, which is odd for a capital city.
Madrid elected a left-wing mayor not so long ago, and the left carried 46-47% of the vote in the last general election. So I'd say the city itself is rather close.
But as both city and region have accumulated wealth they have indeed tilted towards the right.
Quote from: celedhring on May 04, 2021, 04:13:38 PM
Madrid elected a left-wing mayor not so long ago, and the left carried 46-47% of the vote in the last general election. So I'd say the city itself is rather close.
But as both city and region have accumulated wealth they have indeed tilted towards the right.
That was a 4 year blip that needed the entire leftish spectrum to ally together to kick PP out (which was still the 1st party in voting) and the "experiment" fell apart right afterwards. Otherwise PP has kept the city hall since 1991, with absolute majorities for 24 straight years.
By the way, let's shed one (1) single tear for Ciudadanos, who has been fully fagocited by PP, just as was expected. Their group in parliament must feel like dead men walking. What a train wreck of a party.
And Pablo Iglesias just said that he's leaving politics. :huh:
All those backstabbings and purges to end up like this?
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 04:25:15 PM
By the way, let's shed one (1) single tear for Ciudadanos, who has been fully fagocited by PP, just as was expected. Their group in parliament must feel like dead men walking. What a train wreck of a party.
<_< :x
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 04, 2021, 04:45:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 04:25:15 PM
By the way, let's shed one (1) single tear for Ciudadanos, who has been fully fagocited by PP, just as was expected. Their group in parliament must feel like dead men walking. What a train wreck of a party.
<_< :x
Their campaign might have been the saddest I've ever seen. They were humilliated by PP in every ocasion they had during their coalition government. PP kicked them off in order to call elections and they ran on a campaign of... allying themselves to PP again, who barely recognized their existance and openly manifested their willingness to go hard right and ally with Vox instead. It's the political version of the battered wife syndrome.
Liberalism is getting crushed everywhere it seems. Ah well. We just have no constituency anymore.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 04:49:18 PM
Liberalism is getting crushed everywhere it seems. Ah well. We just have no constituency anymore.
On the contrary, the Madrid PP has always ran on a plattform of unrestrained economic liberalism. Why the results always end up with uglier and uglier versions of crony capitalism just eludes them...
I mean, PP's entire campaign was just saying "Liberty" over and over and over and over...
Edit: For instance, here you have their campaign mailing:
(https://www.publico.es/tremending/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/collage-1-1132x670.jpg)
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 04:51:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 04:49:18 PM
Liberalism is getting crushed everywhere it seems. Ah well. We just have no constituency anymore.
On the contrary, the Madrid PP has always ran on a plattform of unrestrained economic liberalism. Why the results always end up with uglier and uglier versions of crony capitalism just eludes them...
I mean, PP's entire campaign was just saying "Liberty" over and over and over and over...
I meant in the form advanced by the centrist Democrats, FDP, Lib-Dems and other of the traditional liberal parties. Not Libertarian type stuff, which is usually just empty slogans in the hands of the right wing.
Most of those parties have to choose between going right or left. It is just how it is going. Clearly Ciudadanos thought going right was the right answer and well...why vote for them if you can just vote for PP?
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 05:09:52 PM
Most of those parties have to choose between going right or left.
And they always, invariably, go right. So they're not really in the center. They might be a soft right, but they're right wing nonetheless. I'd love to be wrong but I struggle to remember one single time they actually went left.
QuoteClearly Ciudadanos thought going right was the right answer and well...why vote for them if you can just vote for PP?
That was the culmination of Albert Rivera's brilliant strategy of tying themselves to PP in their grand strategy. If failed miserably, but it's commendable how a sizeable part of the remnants of the party keep on with that strategy even after being grossly humiliated and ignored by PP.
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 05:44:59 PM
And they always, invariably, go right. So they're not really in the center. They might be a soft right, but they're right wing nonetheless. I'd love to be wrong but I struggle to remember one single time they actually went left.
The Democrats seem to be.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 05:44:59 PM
And they always, invariably, go right. So they're not really in the center. They might be a soft right, but they're right wing nonetheless. I'd love to be wrong but I struggle to remember one single time they actually went left.
The Democrats seem to be.
I'm talking European parlamentary politics here. US politics is a completely different beast.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 04:49:18 PM
Liberalism is getting crushed everywhere it seems. Ah well. We just have no constituency anymore.
They work with and opened the door to Vox. Liberalism that's willing to work with the far-right deserves to be crushed everywhere.
QuoteI meant in the form advanced by the centrist Democrats, FDP, Lib-Dems and other of the traditional liberal parties. Not Libertarian type stuff, which is usually just empty slogans in the hands of the right wing.
I'm fine with the Dems but the FDP have also flirted with AfD (it is a theme across Europe for the liberal parties) and the Lib Dems were, of course, a part of the Cameron government that's been more or less entirely discredited (though it did get glowing write-ups at the time from the Economist).
Quote from: Syt on May 04, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on May 04, 2021, 02:42:43 PMsouth is left, north is right
Sounds like that one WW1 game. :P
:D
Yeah the one Tamas was so effusive about.
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 04:30:33 PM
And Pablo Iglesias just said that he's leaving politics. :huh:
All those backstabbings and purges to end up like this?
I'll believe it when I see it.
I gotta say I quite like Yolanda Díaz, who's supposed to replace him.
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 05:09:52 PM
Most of those parties have to choose between going right or left.
And they always, invariably, go right. So they're not really in the center. They might be a soft right, but they're right wing nonetheless. I'd love to be wrong but I struggle to remember one single time they actually went left.
It is so weird. Let's not forget they were founded as a sort-of splinter party from the Catalan SocDems.
Quote from: celedhring on May 05, 2021, 02:14:42 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2021, 05:09:52 PM
Most of those parties have to choose between going right or left.
And they always, invariably, go right. So they're not really in the center. They might be a soft right, but they're right wing nonetheless. I'd love to be wrong but I struggle to remember one single time they actually went left.
It is so weird. Let's not forget they were founded as a sort-of splinter party from the Catalan SocDems.
That might have been their beginnings, but they were soon taken over by PP rejects like Rivera and Girauta. I always found curious how their supposed intelectual founders basically disappeared from the scene as soon as the party started picking up steam.
Rivera was their first SecGen :P
But they were quite different. Yes, they were a bit of a single-issue party ("Catalan nationalism SUCKS"), but outside of that they were definitely left-leaning. During the years of the Catalan left-wing tripartite, they sided many times with the government on social issues.
Then they went national, started recruiting a bunch of PP rejects, some liberals and several "liberals", and eventually purged the Soc-Dem wing of the party. I know it was hollow by that time, but the party still officially defined itself as "social-democrat" until 2017.
Quote from: celedhring on May 05, 2021, 04:40:42 AMRivera was their first SecGen :P
But they were quite different. Yes, they were a bit of a single-issue party ("Catalan nationalism SUCKS"), but outside of that they were definitely left-leaning. During the years of the Catalan left-wing tripartite, they sided many times with the government on social issues.
Then they went national, started recruiting a bunch of PP rejects, some liberals and several "liberals", and eventually purged the Soc-Dem wing of the party. I know it was hollow by that time, but the party still officially defined itself as "social-democrat" until 2017.
And he was already a PP reject by then, although I'll grant you that he was a basically irrelevant one. :P
I meant basically what happened with the group of public personalities that launched the platform from which Ciudadanos was built up. AFAIK none of them actually amounted to anything within the party once it was formed, right? At that point any credential, however flimsy, about them being soc-dems went IMO out of the window.
That was out of their own volition though, most of the founders of the platform said they didn't intend to join the party, just support it from outside.
They were quite involved during the first years, appearing on the campaign trail and such.
Quote from: celedhring on May 05, 2021, 01:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 04, 2021, 04:30:33 PM
And Pablo Iglesias just said that he's leaving politics. :huh:
All those backstabbings and purges to end up like this?
I'll believe it when I see it.
I guess he'll end up in media somewhere, although if I was in his shoes I'd basically want to disappear from the face of earth and be left alone. I don't like the guy or the way he does politics, but the amount of vitriol and plain, unmitigated hate he has been subjected to is way out of proportion with anything reasonable in politics. And the horrible thing is that I can now imagine Ayuso, Vox and Monasterio claiming his political scalp (or ponytail :P) as if they were the ones who managed to make his leave politics.
Btw, the unmitigated hate he receives has also served for something, and it's to reveal the political affinities of plenty of celebrities that would normally never even pronounce themselves about anything remotely controversial or political. It's quite scary, for instance, seeing more than a few of footballers gloating about this and basically openly siding with the Vox hate campaign against him.
QuoteI gotta say I quite like Yolanda Díaz, who's supposed to replace him.
Yolanda is indeed ossum, if somebody had to pick up Podemos after him they could do so much worse than her. I must say it was a bit of a surprise for me to see her being propelled to the top right now, she's quite an interesting figure at the moment for the present and immediate future of Spanish politics.
Yeah, Yolanda might make me vote for them for the first time since I turned 30* :lol:
(I used to be a staunch IU voted back in my young days)
I mean, she looks efficient and focused on getting things done instead of political noise. That's something we really need.
*Forgot I voted for one of those new left melanges that sprouted in the 2015 local elections before Podemos/Comuns organized themselves.
Quote from: celedhring on May 05, 2021, 05:31:48 AM
Yeah, Yolanda might make me vote for them for the first time since I turned 30 :lol:
(I used to be a staunch IU voted back in my young days)
I mean, she looks efficient and focused on getting things done instead of political noise. That's something we really need.
Well, she's not IU anymore, she left the party quietly a couple of years ago, IIRC. She's not affiliated with Podemos either, so she's a bit of an independent figure within the party, so I don't know if that bodes well for her or not, as I'm not sure how much internal support she has.
I was surprised she was named heir apparent by Iglesias, to be frank. She is the most popular Podemos minister, but as you say she's an independent without a power base or political family.
Quote from: celedhring on May 05, 2021, 05:58:41 AM
I was surprised she was named heir apparent by Iglesias, to be frank. She is the most popular Podemos minister, but as you say she's an independent without a power base or political family.
Well, she still belongs to a party... the Spanish Communist Party. :ph34r:
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2021, 05:11:50 AM
Btw, the unmitigated hate he receives has also served for something, and it's to reveal the political affinities of plenty of celebrities that would normally never even pronounce themselves about anything remotely controversial or political. It's quite scary, for instance, seeing more than a few of footballers gloating about this and basically openly siding with the Vox hate campaign against him.
Wait, you need to be a Voxite to despise Pablemos? :hmm:
I have a hard time imagining how new leadership could significantly change the future of the party. For most people Podemos is a dead brand.
A party born of class disillusionment, their focus has instead been nationalist and "woke" rhetoric. They've done nothing of note in government.
I personally dislike Pablemos quite a bit, but I don't think that's a fair representation. They have got themselves involved in cultural matters because that's what PSOE gave them. All the meat and potatoes ministers are PSOE. Yolanda Díaz has been quietly effective in the only real ministry they got (although she's not from the party). They have pulled PSOE to the left in welfare state matters: the minimum income, increased funding for elderly care, the furlough schemes during the pandemic... all those don't happen or happen with a much smaller scope without Podemos there.
Personally I find all the unhinged populism the most worrying trait of them. Maybe with PI out of the picture that will subside a bit. Or maybe the party will just collapse as he was such an alpha male leader. He's purged or married anybody that got any kind of traction inside the party.
Their support for Catalan nationalism comes, imho, from a misguided belief in them being allies in dismantling Spanish establishment. Chaos is a ladder and all that. Catalan nationalists, incidentally, for the most part despise them.
The minimum wage hike is the only thing one could call significant, but it's small potatoes compared to Labour Reform.
As for furlough schemes, I would be wary of bringing up anything related to the management of the pandemic. Even Boris managed to get vaccination right at least.
Quote from: Iormlund on May 06, 2021, 03:29:04 PM
As for furlough schemes, I would be wary of bringing up anything related to the management of the pandemic. Even Boris managed to get vaccination right at least.
And, more directly comparable, a furlough scheme :lol:
So, the two main separatist parties (ERC and JxCAT) have been locked in coalition negotiations for 2 months since the election, without reaching a deal. Today ERC has said they are pulling out of talks and will try to lead a minority government. They only have 15 days to secure enough abstention votes or we'll get a repeat election. Main blocking points have been organization of the cabinet, control of the Catalan public TV (currently in the hands of JxCAT), and Puigdemont wanting a senior role outside of the government.
It's worth repeating that ERC and JxCAT utterly despise each other. Also, they both signed a pledge before the election to not have coalition talks with unionist parties (and ERC has repeated today that they won't seek those votes, so the only way they can lead a minority government is... with JxCAT votes), so I don't know what they are expecting.
There's still a chance this is just some negotiation tactic, but it would be the third ultimatum that ERC delivers during these talks that isn't followed through, which is not something you want to do if you want your ultimatums to be taken seriously...
Spain's favorite nazi has held a rally in front of the Israel embassy in Madrid.
(https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/706538/1620984555689.png)
I find it weird to see a bunch of racists with a big "INTIFADA" banner, but I guess antisemitism still trumps everything.
I've caned worse for less.
So...I want to join this organisation.... just how little racism can I get away with?
Quote from: Tyr on May 14, 2021, 12:26:31 PM
So...I want to join this organisation.... just how little racism can I get away with?
They're really extreme, except they ditch the brown shirts for a cocktail dress.
Any passably pretty girl in a dress would stand out like a super model in the middle of such a herd of thugs.
So, after 3 months of acrimonious talks between the two main proindy parties we'll have a new Catalan government, just one week before a new election was triggered. ERC blinked first after trying to set up a solo government and they are now giving up the most valuable departments to JxCAT in exchange for the presidency. JxCAT and its predecessor party are undoubtly the best in Catalonia at doing politics. Even in defeat, they rule.
What they'll do about independence has been left really vague. An older draft of the pact included a 2 year window where they'd explore the negotation group set up with the Spanish gov, and if they can't get a lawful referendum (which the Spanish gov has already said it's off the table, while they are willing to talk about further devolution) they'd go ahead with "preparing another clash with the state", which was understood as a referendum. But when announcing the current pact they have just gone with "we'll work to get independence as soon as possible".
I suspect they need some kind of indy-related carrot or ultimately the coalition will implode (like the last one did). The independence drive is the only thing that ties those parties together.
Quote from: Tyr on May 14, 2021, 12:26:31 PM
So...I want to join this organisation.... just how little racism can I get away with?
:D
Elbows are way too pointy.
Spain has been embroiled in a diplomatic crisis with Morocco (these happen regularly), after it transpired that one of the heads of the Polisario Front was receiving medical treatment for Covid in Spain, after travelling from Argelia and receiving permission from our government. Dude's a nasty piece of work whatever you think of that conflict, and Spanish courts also want him for lots of gruesome stuff (and they are expecting his hospital release before proceeding). As a reprisal, Morocco has stopped policing the land border with Ceuta & Melilla which has resulted in several thousand immigrants crossing over in a single evening. The army has been deployed, and those cities don't have the capacity to handle this influx of people.
(https://imagenes.elpais.com/resizer/-TuOqHLmE0qn5YxMsiJ0vSxIqWM=/828x0/cloudfront-eu-central-1.images.arcpublishing.com/prisa/IINGOWLX5VBYLGNTIIZBLXSUPU.jpeg)
Let's hope this doesn't end badly...
Add to that having the Moroccan PM doing an interview in TV talking about "finally opening the discussions with Spain regarding the status of Ceuta and Melilla".
How important are the places to Spain?
They are more trouble than anything else, given the illegal immigration issues and the drug trade. I don't care much about our suzerainty of those places, but I *do* care about hypotetically surrendering them to an ultraconservative authoritarian monarchy (and I don't think the people living in them would like it very much either) :hmm:
While they might be more trouble than they're worth, they're still integral parts of the country (no wishy washy post-colonial status here), and you just don't give those kind of places away, with almost 200 thousand compatriots living there who would not really enjoy the idea of leaving a democratic country for an absolute monarchy. No Spanish government would (or should) even entertain that idea.
Unless you're a firm believer of domino theory (if you give them something then they'll want even more), a dialogue could be had about the "Plazas de soberanía", pointless military garrisons and deserted islands in the area, of which Perejil island, the one that caused the 2002 incident between Spain and Morocco, is part of.
The relationship between Spain and Morocco has always been somehow tense since the 70s. When Franco was in his deathbed Morocco undertook the "Green March", through which they occupied the Western Sahara, a Spanish territory at that time that has been occupied by Morocco since then (which Trump recognized as part of Morocco last year, in exchange for Morocco normalizing relations with Israel). Besides those territorial frictions, Morocco is also the "enforcer" of migration (as well as drug traficking) vigilance, and whenever relations between Spain and Morocco go sour, they "relax" their policing standards so there's an influx of migrants for Spain to deal with, as right now.
Ceuta's been rightful Portugese/Spanish clay since 1415. The Reconquista wasn't even done by then. Morocco will have to conquer it in a war if they want it back. :hmm:
Looks like Puigdemont is already losing control of the party he himself created. Most of his closest allies won't be in the new Catalan government, and his party has instead chosen a bunch of relative moderates. :hmm:
I can't see this bunch doing anything weird in the next couple years. We can certainly use that, the pandemic has been devastating for our economy.
Celia Villalobos, former Health Minister under the conservative governments of the 2000s has started an e-sports team. This is utterly bizarre :lol:
(https://cdn.hobbyconsolas.com/sites/navi.axelspringer.es/public/styles/1200/public/media/image/2021/05/celia-villalobos-screen-wolves-2345547.jpg?itok=grgVb1E2)
Ok, yesterday the Spanish president pretty much confirmed he intends to pardon the jailed the Catalan politicians in the coming weeks. This will raise a political shitstorm, when the socdems were already not doing too well in the polls.
The sentencing tribunal's opinion on the pardons (last part of the process before they can be granted) is coming this week, and it is expected to be extremely negative. This doesn't prevent the government from giving them, but makes them vulnerable to an appeal (yes, pardons can be appealed over here), as over the years the Supreme Court has tended to give itself a bigger oversight on pardons.
I know the goal is to reduce tensions, but I can easily see an outcome where this fuels the right, who comes to power in a couple years and given their proven tactfulness and care when managing this issue, separatists find a good target to coalesce around another unilateral attempt. But I'm always a pessimist.
While I think that at least a partial indult is going to be necessary sooner or later, it's something that will be extremely difficult to handle PR-wise and it's not going to give them any goodwill at all, let alone votes. I really wish that they know what they're doing putting it forward at this time. I guess it's something they want settled well in advance of the next general elections.
Yeah, they want to get it done ASAP, and hope everybody forgets in two years. However, the released dudes will spend the next two years reminding everybody that "we will do it again", because that's the stage where at in Catalonia. Anyway, I'll begin stockin loo paper.
EDIT: the Supreme Court just released its opinion and its overwhelmingly negative.
Quote from: celedhring on May 26, 2021, 05:29:18 AM
Yeah, they want to get it done ASAP, and hope everybody forgets in two years. However, the released dudes will spend the next two years reminding everybody that "we will do it again", because that's the stage where at in Catalonia. Anyway, I'll begin stockin loo paper.
Thing is, it's going to be impossible to make people forget it. PP and Vox will hammer the government with it day in day out (Ciudadanos too, but nobody is going to care about them). Only chance is if something even bigger happens.
I wonder if some conditional indult is possible, attaching stirngs in a "you can get out of jail but the moment you start rumbling about doing another referendum you go back in ASAP" way. I also wonder if they should apply the indult only to the "political" crimes, but not to the administrative ones, so their jail time is greatly reduced, but not completely eliminated.
QuoteEDIT: the Supreme Court just released its opinion and its overwhelmingly negative.
It's not as if anything different was expected.
The "don't flout the law again or you're back in the slammer" clause is apparently rather common, so I guess that will go in.
I suspect they won't get pardoned for the non-jail penalties of their sentences, too (so they'll still be barred from holding office).
Quote from: celedhring on May 26, 2021, 05:53:44 AM
The "don't flout the law again or you're back in the slammer" clause is apparently rather common, so I guess that will go in.
I suspect they won't get pardoned for the non-jail penalties of their sentences, too (so they'll still be barred from holding office).
Yeah, being barred from office is more of an administrative penalty, I doubt those can be pardoned away. Won't prevent all these people from taking part in political stuff, though.
This Guardian articule sums up the current state of events rather well.
I think the analyst they interview at the end misses a significant wrinkle though. Catalan government is a coalition government between ERC (which is indeed trying to appear more moderate) and the radicals of JxCAT and CUP, and that the coalition agreement has a clause forcing a motion of no confidence in 2023. That will make the Catalan government fall unless it commits to some form of unilateral action, exactly in the same year of the next Spanish election.
Anyway, I will enjoy a couple years of relative calm.
Quote
Spain's right unites in fury as PM considers Catalan pardons
Rightwing parties condemn prime minister's call to work for 'co-existence' with separatists
Sam Jones in Madrid
Sat 12 Jun 2021 05.00 BST
On Sunday thousands of people, among them the leaders of the three parties on Spain's right, will once again gather in the Madrid square that boasts the world's largest Spanish flag to protest against the Socialist-led government's handling of the Catalan independence crisis.
In February 2019, in a deeply controversial moment immortalised in photographs of the occasion, the conservative People's party (PP), the centre-right Citizens party and the far-right Vox party joined forces in the Plaza de Colón to accuse the prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, of betraying Spain, and to call for an early election.
This time, their common fury is directed at Sánchez's decision to consider pardoning the 12 Catalan independence leaders convicted two years ago for their parts in the illegal, failed attempt to secede from the rest of Spain in October 2017.
The question of pardoning the Catalan leaders remains deeply divisive in Spain, a fact not lost on opposition parties and many people in Sánchez's Spanish Socialist Workers party (PSOE). A recent poll for El Mundo found that 61% of those surveyed did not agree with pardoning them, while 29.5% backed it.
Although the government will have the final say, Spain's supreme court issued a non-binding report opposing the pardons last month, saying the sentences handed out were appropriate and noting those convicted had not shown "the slightest evidence or faintest hint of contrition".
Sánchez, however, insists the pardons could be the best way to cool enduring tensions and move towards a political solution to the territorial impasse. "I do understand that there will be people who have objections to the decision the government might make – especially after the events of 2017," the prime minister said on Wednesday. "But I ask them to put their trust in us because we need to work on coexistence ... Spanish society needs to move from a bad past to a better future – and that will require magnanimity."
The prime minister's desire to push ahead with the idea has been seized on by his opponents, including Pablo Casado. The PP leader, buoyed up by his party's new lead over the PSOE in the polls, has decided the pardons question is worth the possible risks of once again appearing to throw his lot in with the far right by heading to the Plaza de Colón on Sunday. Unsurprisingly, he rejects any such suggestion and points to his unambiguous repudiation of Vox last October, when he attacked their politics of "fear, anger, resentment and revenge".
This time Casado will be taking care not to cosy up to the Vox leader, Santiago Abascal, and says attending the rally is a simple democratic duty. He also says the event is about showing the lengths to which the PSOE – which heads a minority government – will go to ensure the continued support in Congress of the pro-independence Republican Left of Catalonia party (ERC).
"I think it's very unfair to try to convince public opinion that gathering peacefully in a square to protest against those who have broken the law is something negative," he said on Monday. "If a state in Germany sought independence and a government needed its votes to stay in power – and failed to do what it had sworn to do, which was to defend the German constitution – and if people came out to defend the constitution, I very much doubt those people would be demonised."
Even so, some regional PP presidents on the more moderate wing of the party have said they will not be attending the rally, citing previous commitments.
Casado likes to describe the PP today as a "reformist, liberal, pro-Europe, globalist, centre-right party" with broad appeal, but its current return to the centre comes only after a fruitless lurch to the right in an attempt to woo Vox voters.
The party's efforts to capitalise on the proposed Catalan pardons have also been complicated by the reappearance of the kind of historical corruption allegations that did for the government of Casado's predecessor, Mariano Rajoy and, perhaps more significantly, by a well-timed change of heart from the ERC.
In an article on Monday, the ERC's jailed leader, Oriol Junqueras, admitted the independence movement had made mistakes, showed enthusiasm for the pardons, and said the time of unilateral actions had come to an end.
The article, which did not go down well with the hardline separatists in Together for Catalonia, the party of the former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont, struck a decidedly conciliatory note as Sánchez prepared to meet the new regional president, Pere Aragonès, for talks later this month.
Aragonès, a member of the ERC, has also indicated a willingness to negotiate over the future of the region, saying: "It won't be easy – it will be extraordinarily difficult – but it's our duty to the people of Catalonia."
José Pablo Ferrándiz, a social sciences lecturer at Madrid Carlos III university, said Casado was taking a gamble by going to the Plaza de Colón. He said that Citizens, which is in freefall across Spain and in danger of disappearing altogether, had little choice but to show up – as did Vox, which used the Catalan crisis to break into the political mainstream.
Ferrándiz said Casado did not currently command a huge amount of support among all rightwing voters, not even among those backing the PP. "That's why I think this Colón strategy is mistaken: he's not going to convince his own voters, and nor is he going to convince those from other parties that are close to it in ideological terms," he said. "I don't think it's a very profitable move from an electoral point of view and I think he's doing it because of what he's seen in the polls."
Ferrándiz said much of what happens in the next few months would depend, as ever, on the economy – in particular on how Spain used its €140bn Covid recovery fund from the EU. "If people see that the funds are being managed well and are making their way into their pockets and helping to reduce inequalities and create jobs, the pardons will shrink into being just a story that happened in the summer of 2021," he said.
"But if the economy goes bad, the recovery is mismanaged and people feel they're grappling with another crisis like in 2008, then the pardon issue will be another thorn in the PSOE's side at the next election."
The Qanon shaman has competition from our nutty righters, as seen today during their protest.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3wmfSpXoAUk2jy?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: The Larch on June 13, 2021, 07:09:54 AM
The Qanon shaman has competition from our nutty righters, as seen today during their protest.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3wmfSpXoAUk2jy?format=jpg&name=medium)
Vaqueros (Cow-boys/jeans for the non-hispanophones) make sense with a bull's head. :P
We need to get this fella his own Marvel show.
The pardons are coming out today. According to the leaks they'll get their jail sentences rescinded but will still be barred from holding office. The pardons will also be rescinded if they commit the same offence (which their parties are threatening to if talks with the Spanish gov collapse, although a lot of that talk is just political theater for their radicals).
:lol:
QuotePablo Pérez
@PabloPerezA
Spain in 2001: "you have 20 years to exchange your pesetas and get euros"
Spanish people in January 2021: "we still have time"
Spanish people the day of the deadline
QuoteJuan Carlos Amón
@amoncope
Esto es lo que pasa cuando solo te dan veinte años para cambiar las pesetas por euros.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E49RuC8XEAI32LR?format=jpg&name=small)
Oh Spain.
Surprised there's a deadline tbh. Pretty sure in the UK its the case that you can take even a vintage 17th century note to the BoE and get its face value back (though you'd obviously get more selling it)
My mother inherited from my grandma a shitload of essentially worthless (we checked it) Republican Spain banknotes.
Quote from: celedhring on June 28, 2021, 11:21:39 AM
My mother inherited from my grandma a shitload of essentially worthless (we checked it) Republican Spain banknotes.
Reminds me of the worthless Ostmark scene in Goodbye Lenin. :D
After months of negotiations between coalition members, the Spanish government has finally submitted its trans rights law. Finally the proponents of more expansive rights (essentially Podemos and some sectors within PSOE) have won the debate. Nonetheless, the law is going to be controversial (FWIW, my "go to" friend when I want to take the pulse on women's/gay issues is adamantly against it).
Quote
MADRID, June 29 (Reuters) - The Spanish government on Tuesday approved the draft of a bill to allow anyone over the age of 14 to change gender legally without a medical diagnosis or hormone therapy, the Equality Ministry said.
The draft bill, which will go to a public hearing before another reading in the cabinet and a vote in the lower house of parliament, removes the requirement for two years of hormone therapy and a psychological assessment to switch gender in official records.
"This is an historic day after more than 15 years without any legislative progress," Equality Minister Irene Montero told a news conference.
"We send a strong message for the protection of LGBTI people," she said, referring to the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex community.
The "self-ID" draft bill sets age limits, with 14- to 16-year-olds needing parental approval, after parliament's rejection in May of a proposal from a group of political parties to give children total freedom to legal gender recognition.
Activists and families of transgender children say the draft bill does not go far enough, while some feminist associations oppose it.
It puts Spain at the centre of Europe's debate about the rights of LGBT people. European Union leaders last week confronted Hungary's prime minister over its new anti-LGBT law. read more
With the draft bill, which also bans LGBT conversion therapies, Spain is set to join two dozen countries aiming to decouple gender choice from medical procedures and would become the largest European country to introduce self-identification.
If approved, trans people will be able to declare their gender by filling in a form at a registry office and then confirming the decision three months later.
The draft bill is part of a political agreement signed between Spain's Socialist Party (PSOE) and its left-wing junior coalition partner Unidas Podemos. The deal has taken months of negotiations due to the conflicting positions of the two governing parties.
Saida Garcia of the Euforia non-governmental organisation, which supports transgender children, said the bill failed to accommodate people aged 12 and 13, who require court approval for the process, and younger children who are excluded.
"It's not true self-determination if there are age limits," she said, adding there was also no provision for non-binary people, who do not identify as male or female, or non-Spanish residents.
Aida Chacon Martinez, the mother of a non-binary teenager, said: "Waiting until you're 14 to be recognised for who you are is very hard."
A collective of about 50 feminist groups said it opposed the bill. "These legal reforms are regressive and it is essential to stop them in order not to lose the protection of the specific rights against gender-based oppression," said the Confluencia Feminista federation in a statement.
Reporting by Belén Carreño and Inti Landauro, editing by Robin Emmott
In a way sounds reasonable to me. Clear requirements and waiting times. Heads off the nutters usual whails that self identification means anyone can declare themselves a woman and the next minute go into the ladies changing room.
But you just know bad faith actors will be a thing in this. I would say a bit more is needed. But really hard to define quite what.
Quote from: Tyr on June 29, 2021, 01:49:28 PM
In a way sounds reasonable to me. Clear requirements and waiting times. Heads off the nutters usual whails that self identification means anyone can declare themselves a woman and the next minute go into the ladies changing room.
But you just know bad faith actors will be a thing in this. I would say a bit more is needed. But really hard to define quite what.
A prior draft had psych eval requirements, but they were removed after a *lively debate* (read: quarrel) within the coalition.
It's a bit of a quandary. Out of principle I'm a believer in "let people be what they want to be", but you have to draft these things carefully to avoid bad actors. It goes further than "let's sneak in bathrooms", we have a significant legal corpus of positive discrimination towards women which can now be co-opted just by signing some papers.
Honestly, since there's little experience around the world in legislating this, we'll just have to carefully monitor how the law is used (once is enacted) and see the consequences and make the necessary adjustments down the line.
Back in the day, when same sex marriage was made legal, similar bewildering claims of "dudes will get married to each other for tax reasons" were made, and never materialized, so I think we can take it easy with the argument that "dudes will claim to be women to get unfair advantages" that this law will create.
Quote from: celedhring on June 29, 2021, 11:19:18 AM(FWIW, my "go to" friend when I want to take the pulse on women's/gay issues is adamantly against it).
TERF alert? :ph34r:
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2021, 04:27:47 PM
Back in the day, when same sex marriage was made legal, similar bewildering claims of "dudes will get married to each other for tax reasons" were made, and never materialized, so I think we can take it easy with the argument that "dudes will claim to be women to get unfair advantages" that this law will create.
:lol: We had the weird one of Jeremy Irons musing on air if he could marry his son for the inheritance tax benefits - which, obviously wasn't quite right in lots of ways.
I don't think there was any homophobic motivation was Irons. I just think it was an example of why you should never ask actors about politicians (or tax law).
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2021, 04:27:47 PM
Back in the day, when same sex marriage was made legal, similar bewildering claims of "dudes will get married to each other for tax reasons" were made, and never materialized, so I think we can take it easy with the argument that "dudes will claim to be women to get unfair advantages" that this law will create.
Quote from: celedhring on June 29, 2021, 11:19:18 AM(FWIW, my "go to" friend when I want to take the pulse on women's/gay issues is adamantly against it).
TERF alert? :ph34r:
but it's different for gays. All they wanted was piss off the straight. Once they got their marriage thing legal, most of them went back home to their usual orgies :P :P
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2021, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: celedhring on June 29, 2021, 11:19:18 AM(FWIW, my "go to" friend when I want to take the pulse on women's/gay issues is adamantly against it).
TERF alert? :ph34r:
Yeah, thing is that while she's an activist I don't consider her a radical or unreasonable by any kind of stretch. She's very smart and I always gauge her opinion on women/LGBT+ issues (she's lesbian). So, I was surprised when I learnt she was against the law. Essentially she wants "gender" and "biological sex" to be decoupled and that you can't legally change the latter without biological changes. The problem was then debating which kind of legal prerogatives would go with "gender" (easy to change) and which ones to sex (very hard to change).
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2021, 04:27:47 PM
Back in the day, when same sex marriage was made legal, similar bewildering claims of "dudes will get married to each other for tax reasons" were made, and never materialized, so I think we can take it easy with the argument that "dudes will claim to be women to get unfair advantages" that this law will create.
Quote from: celedhring on June 29, 2021, 11:19:18 AM(FWIW, my "go to" friend when I want to take the pulse on women's/gay issues is adamantly against it).
TERF alert? :ph34r:
It's less people doing it for genuine gain that are a concern and more in the current climate you just know some nutters will do it to prove an oh so clever point.
Maybe we just have a few years of that then it will burn out as nobody cares and they ruin their lives for nothing. But odds are good you will see a bit of it. It does seem very weird to me that I could just apply to change my legal gender without doing anything to actually transition.
The gay marriage tax break comparison breaks down with there being actual laws against marriage just for that purpose no matter the gender of the people involved
QuoteEssentially she wants "gender" and "biological sex" to be decoupled and that you can't legally change the latter without biological changes. The problem was then debating which kind of legal prerogatives would go with "gender" (easy to change) and which ones to sex (very hard to change).
This does sound fairly terfy.
She's open to people being able to change their sex?
The bother with this kind of solution is common sense as they may be they involve far more radical changes than the simple solutions thus are unlikely to be passed.
I quite liked a similar solution back when gay marriage was a subject of debate - decouple legal coupling from marriage. Anyone can make a legal couple. A marriage is totally up to churches to decide for themselves.
Just letting gays be married as much as it upset some in the short term was a much more straight forward solution.
Yeah, the parallel with the whole civil union/marriage thing is there. And as Larchie says ultimately all the doommongering related to gay marriage never came to pass. So I'm perfectly willing to go with the proposed law and see.
Quote from: celedhring on June 30, 2021, 04:45:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on June 29, 2021, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: celedhring on June 29, 2021, 11:19:18 AM(FWIW, my "go to" friend when I want to take the pulse on women's/gay issues is adamantly against it).
TERF alert? :ph34r:
Yeah, thing is that while she's an activist I don't consider her a radical or unreasonable by any kind of stretch. She's very smart and I always gauge her opinion on women/LGBT+ issues (she's lesbian). So, I was surprised when I learnt she was against the law. Essentially she wants "gender" and "biological sex" to be decoupled and that you can't legally change the latter without biological changes. The problem was then debating which kind of legal prerogatives would go with "gender" (easy to change) and which ones to sex (very hard to change).
It seems to be a common thing at the moment in many issues related to trans rights that there's opposition from other parts of the LGB spectrum that are against them, as well as the aforementioned TERFs (which migh overlap in the case of some lesbians). For instance I recently read that the largest UK charity dealing with LGBT rights, Stonewall, suffered a split because of their position on trans rights, with a new rival org called LGB alliance being created because of that, which has as part of their objectives specifically being against some of these trans rights. Over here this seems to be conflated with legal protections for women, which these rival groups claim that this new law would weaken because it'd allow men to "become" women, thus making those protections moot.
At the basis of all this ruckus seems to be a bit of a generational thing, as it seems to me that those groups opposed to trans rights are more anchored in older mindsets of the feminist/LGBT movements, while younger generations seem the ones moving the debate forward, but I'm not knowledgeable enough on this to make strong claims. For instance, in the Spanish case, IU recently expelled from its coalition the PFE (Partido Feminista de España), which had been created in the late 70s by Lidia Falcón, as she's a huge TERF that was adamantly opposed to the current law being proposed. Nowadays she can be seen sometimes in the same events denouncing the law with VOX representatives.
The whole transphobia to protect women thing is so transparently bad faith.
It's like when the far right would call the EU racist because all its members are white. Face palmingly stupid and just trying to get under the skin of their opponents.
Quote from: celedhring on June 30, 2021, 05:25:40 AM
Yeah, the parallel with the whole civil union/marriage thing is there. And as Larchie says ultimately all the doommongering related to gay marriage never came to pass. So I'm perfectly willing to go with the proposed law and see.
Some of the doommongering I'm reading is quite puzzling to me, stuff like "this means the dissappearance of womanhood", and things like that.
Quote from: Tyr on June 30, 2021, 06:34:33 AM
The whole transphobia to protect women thing is so transparently bad faith.
Yet that's the way this is going, almost all criticism seems to be directed against trans women, for some reason trans men don't seem to bother as many people.
A picture from a demonstration against the law by a feminist org:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4zm3cIXIAIOuGx?format=jpg&name=large)
Some of the signs read:
"RIP Women sports"
"Trans-activism is lesbophobia"
"Chidlhood is to be protected" (Creative translation, it literally says "Childhood does not get touched")
Variations of "TERF are the real feminists" and "Sex is not gender"
Quote from: The Larch on June 30, 2021, 06:24:51 AM
It seems to be a common thing at the moment in many issues related to trans rights that there's opposition from other parts of the LGB spectrum that are against them, as well as the aforementioned TERFs (which migh overlap in the case of some lesbians). For instance I recently read that the largest UK charity dealing with LGBT rights, Stonewall, suffered a split because of their position on trans rights, with a new rival org called LGB alliance being created because of that, which has as part of their objectives specifically being against some of these trans rights. Over here this seems to be conflated with legal protections for women, which these rival groups claim that this new law would weaken because it'd allow men to "become" women, thus making those protections moot.
There's a lot going on here :(
The LGB Alliance is now a registered charity. Their basic position is they're supporting people who define themselves by same-sex attraction (whether lesbian, gay or bi) and say that's under threat because of the "confusion" in their view of biological sex and gender. But they're seen by trans activists and allies as a hate group basically who shouldn't be allowed to register as a charity/non-profit. I also remember a few years ago a group of lesbians blocked the Pride parade by protesting about trans issues.
Similarly Stonewall has placed a big emphasis on trans and non-binary rights in the last few years. They have a workplace award scheme - which organisations pay for - and lots of organisation especially in the public sector are starting to withdraw because it's becoming controversial. In addition - I've worked on a Stonewall submission for a company and it is very time consuming, normally in addition to normal work by people who care about the issue - I think a lot of organisations are just starting to wonder if it's worth the hassle. In my experience as well the marking/awards can be quite arbitrary - they change a lot depending who's looking at your form - and they don't really give any support so you pay lots of money every year to enter this Stonewall scheme, you're judged and have one call to run through your form but through the year they're very non-responsive if you're looking for guidance on x policy or whatever - so I don't know about other organisations, but I know where I was there was a lot of debate about whether it was actually worth engaging with Stonewall because from a corporate perspective you want the shiny badge but you also actually want help improving your policies etc. It is striking that the Equalities and Human Rights Commission which has withdrawn from the Stonewall scheme cited "value for money" because that is a conversation I'd had multiple times about Stonewall schemes.
But I think basically there is a big fight in the UK and it makes Stonewall or other LGBT groups - or LGB groups - controversial so a lot of the corporate side are just backing away because they don't want controversy, they (like UEFA) want a rainbow Twitter handle.
There's also been big court cases here - so recently an employment tribunal found that gender-critical views are protected philosophical or political beliefs. So you can't fire someone for holding those view, but obviously they are not allowed to misgender people or for those views to affect the way they treat or behave towards trans people. Basically the bar in the UK is that philosophical/political beliefs unless they are "not worthy of respect in a democratic society" which basically means Nazism/totalitarianism. So someone can't be fired for disapproving of gay marriage or the gays or Muslims, unless those beliefs impact how they do their job/treat people.
Similarly the High Court has ruled that children under 16 are unlikely to be in a position to give informed consent to puberty blocker and for 16 and 17 year olds the doctors will generally have to apply to the court to proceed with that treatment (with consent). This is currently at the Court of Appeal - and I don't know what way it'll go. It's likely to end up at the Supreme Court (stuff around medicine/medical ethics often does).
There was a point when the main fight was over the proposed update to the Gender Recognition Act, but there's a lot going on in the UK. I think we are a bit of a canary in the mine of where this debate is likely to go in other countries - possibly including the US and Canada where there seems to be a bit more pro-trans rights discourse at the minute. From a purely legal perspective - 90% of what anti-trans rights activists worry about is already the legal position in the UK and has been since 2004 (and 2010 with the Equalities Act). But as I say the fight has moved on from the Gender Recognition Act to far wider issues.
QuoteAt the basis of all this ruckus seems to be a bit of a generational thing, as it seems to me that those groups opposed to trans rights are more anchored in older mindsets of the feminist/LGBT movements, while younger generations seem the ones moving the debate forward, but I'm not knowledgeable enough on this to make strong claims. For instance, in the Spanish case, IU recently expelled from its coalition the PFE (Partido Feminista de España), which had been created in the late 70s by Lidia Falcón, as she's a huge TERF that was adamantly opposed to the current law being proposed. Nowadays she can be seen sometimes in the same events denouncing the law with VOX representatives.
There's definitely a generational element. I don't think it's just them but I think there is a core of hard-core opponents to trans rights, as the acronym indicates, who come from radical feminism and lesbian activist groups. And as you say they are willing to cooperate with - in this country - people like Laurence Fox and are, seemingly, winning the argument within the Tory party (it was a Tory MP who largely drafted the report on trans rights that led to the update Gender Recognition Act and Theresa May's government was proceeding with it, that seems to have been largely walked back under Johnson). In part I think it's because most (though not all) of the left are still in the trans rights camp while, in the UK, LGB issues aren't controversial with anyone really anymore.
But from where I sit it looks like the fight is expanding and the left is starting to fracture a little more - and I am really struck at the violence of the language so I've seen pro-trans rights activists wearing "Kill x (say JK Rowling)" t-shirts and at the same time you see TERF campaigners use really aggressive language of this being a campaign to "eliminate" lesbians. It seems to me like both sides are unusually aggressive/violent in the way it's expressed which I think is part of why it keeps escalating and spinning out.
The NYT has a pretty comprehensive write-up on Puigdemont's and his staff's contacts with Russian intelligence. Separatists over here have always dismissed those as "Spanish propaganda" but there's a pretty big trail:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/world/europe/spain-catalonia-russia.html?smid=tw-share
Quote
BARCELONA, Spain — In the spring of 2019, an emissary of Catalonia's top separatist leader traveled to Moscow in search of a political lifeline.
The independence movement in Catalonia, the semiautonomous region in Spain's northeast, had been largely crushed after a referendum on breaking away two years earlier. The European Union and the United States, which supported Spain's effort to keep the country intact, had rebuffed the separatists' pleas for support.
But in Russia, a door was opening.
In Moscow, the emissary, Josep Lluis Alay, a senior adviser to the self-exiled former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont, met with current Russian officials, former intelligence officers and the well-connected grandson of a K.G.B. spymaster. The aim was to secure Russia's help in severing Catalonia from the rest of Spain, according to a European intelligence report, which was reviewed by The New York Times.
Asked about the report's findings, both Mr. Alay and Mr. Puigdemont confirmed the trips to Moscow, which have never been reported, but insisted they were part of regular outreach to foreign officials and journalists. Mr. Alay said any suggestion that he was seeking Russian assistance was "a fantasy story created by Madrid."
For Russia, outreach to the separatists would fit President Vladimir V. Putin's strategy of trying to sow disruption in the West by supporting divisive political movements. In Italy, secret audio recordings revealed a Russian plot to covertly finance the hard-right League party. In Britain, a Times investigation uncovered discussions among right-wing fringe figures about opening bank accounts in Moscow. And in Spain, the Russians have also offered assistance to far-right parties, according to the intelligence report.
Whether Mr. Alay knew it or not, many of the officials he met in Moscow are involved in what has become known as the Kremlin's hybrid war against the West. This is a layered strategy involving propaganda and disinformation, covert financing of disruptive political movements, hacking and leaking information (as happened in the 2016 U.S. presidential election) and "active measures" like assassinations meant to erode the stability of Moscow's adversaries.
It is unclear what help, if any, the Kremlin has provided to the Catalan separatists. But Mr. Alay's trips to Moscow in 2019 were followed quickly by the emergence of a secretive protest group, Tsunami Democratic, which disrupted operations at Barcelona's airport and cut off a major highway linking Spain to northern Europe. A confidential police report by Spain's Guardia Civil, obtained by The Times, found that Mr. Alay was involved in the creation of the protest group.
A secret 700-page transcript of text messages shows the concerted effort made by Mr. Alay and others in Mr. Puigdemont's circle to cultivate ties to Russians with links to the country's intelligence establishment.
"I'm thinking a lot about Russia," Mr. Alay texted Mr. Puigdemont on Aug. 23 last year. "And these days it's all very, very complicated."
Rumors of Russian involvement in Catalonia first emerged soon after Mr. Puigdemont's government held the independence referendum in October 2017. The referendum passed, overwhelmingly, with anti-separatist voters largely boycotting; Spanish authorities declared it illegal and imprisoned those political leaders who did not flee abroad.
Spanish authorities later determined that operatives from a specialized Russian military intelligence group called Unit 29155, which has been linked to attempted coups and assassinations in Europe, had been present in Catalonia around the time of the referendum, but Spain has provided no evidence that they played an active role.
Many Catalan independence leaders have accused the authorities in Madrid of using the specter of Russian interference to tarnish what they described as a grass-roots movement of regular citizens. The referendum was supported by a fragile coalition of three political parties that quickly dissolved over disputes about ideology and strategy. Even as some parties pushed for a negotiated settlement with Madrid, Mr. Puigdemont, a former journalist with a Beatles-like mop of hair, has eschewed compromise.
Asked about the Russian outreach, the current Catalan government under President Pere Aragones distanced itself from Mr. Puigdemont.
"These trips to Moscow were not taken on behalf of the Catalan government and took place without Pere Aragones's knowledge," said Sergi Sabria, Mr. Aragones's spokesman. "These people are not even part of the president's party, which is not aware of the agendas of other parties."
To piece together the contacts with Russia, The Times has drawn on the 10-page European intelligence report, the substance of which was confirmed by two Spanish officials; case files from two separate confidential investigations by magistrates in Barcelona and Madrid, which include the transcript of the texts, but have not yielded any charges related to the Moscow meetings; and interviews with independence politicians and activists in Catalonia, as well as security officials in Spain and abroad.
The June 2020 intelligence report said that Mr. Alay, together with Alexander Dmitrenko, a Russian businessman, sought financial and technical assistance from Russia for the creation of banking, telecommunications and energy sectors separate from Spain. The pair, along with Mr. Puigdemont's lawyer, Gonzalo Boye, also consulted with a leader of a violent Russian criminal syndicate, part of an effort to set up a secret money pipeline to fund their activities, the report said.
The text messages, taken from Mr. Alay's phone when he was briefly arrested in October 2020, help corroborate portions of the intelligence report.
"We're working for The Americans," Mr. Alay said at one point, referring to the FX show about deep-cover K.G.B. officers in the United States.
It was no joke. Two of his primary contacts in Russia, according to the intelligence report, were a husband-and-wife team of intelligence officers whose story helped inspire the series.
'Good News From Moscow'
The Catalan independence movement had been building momentum for a decade but by 2019 had fallen into disarray.
Nine leaders of the movement were in jail and would soon be sentenced to long prison terms for their roles in the referendum. (This summer, all received pardons.) Others had fled Spain, including Mr. Puigdemont, who is living in Belgium and is now a member of the European Parliament, even as he has railed against the "silence of the main European institutions."
The European Union declared the Catalan independence referendum illegal. Russia's position, by contrast, was more equivocal. President Vladimir V. Putin described the Catalan separatist drive as Europe's comeuppance for supporting independence movements in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union.
"There was a time when they welcomed the collapse of a whole series of governments in Europe, not hiding their happiness about this," Mr. Putin said. "We talk about double standards all the time. There you go."
In March 2019, Mr. Alay traveled to Moscow, just weeks after leaders of the Catalan independence movement went on trial. Three months later, Mr. Alay went again.
In Russia, according to the intelligence report, Mr. Alay and Mr. Dmitrenko met with several active foreign intelligence officers, as well as Oleg V. Syromolotov, the former chief of counterintelligence for the Federal Security Service, Russia's domestic intelligence agency, who now oversees counterterrorism as a deputy minister at the Russian foreign ministry.
Mr. Alay denied meeting Mr. Syromolotov and the officers but acknowledged meeting Yevgeny Primakov, the grandson of a famous K.G.B. spymaster, in order to secure an interview with Mr. Puigdemont on an international affairs program he hosted on Kremlin television. Last year, Mr. Primakov was appointed by Mr. Putin to run a Russian cultural agency that, according to European security officials, often serves as a front for intelligence operations.
"Good news from Moscow," Mr. Alay later texted to Mr. Puigdemont, informing him of Mr. Primakov's appointment. In another exchange, Mr. Dmitrenko told Mr. Alay that Mr. Primakov's elevation "puts him in a very good position to activate things between us."
Mr. Alay also confirmed meeting Andrei Bezrukov, a decorated former officer with Russia's foreign intelligence service. For more than a decade, Mr. Bezrukov and his wife, Yelena Vavilova, were deep cover operatives living in the United States using the code names Donald Heathfield and Tracey Foley.
It was their story of espionage, arrest and eventual return to Russia in a spy swap that served as a basis for the television series "The Americans." Mr. Alay appears to have become close with the couple. Working with Mr. Dmitrenko, he spent about three months in the fall of 2020 on a Catalan translation of Ms. Vavilova's autobiographical novel "The Woman Who Can Keep Secrets," according to his encrypted correspondence.
Mr. Alay, who is also a college professor and author, said he was invited by Mr. Bezrukov, who now teaches at a Moscow university, to deliver two lectures.
Mr. Alay was accompanied on each of his trips by Mr. Dmitrenko, 33, a Russian businessman who is married to a Catalan woman. Mr. Dmitrenko did not respond to requests for comment. But Spanish authorities have monitored him and in 2019 rejected a citizenship application from him because of his Russian contacts, according to a Spanish Ministry of Justice decision reviewed by The Times.
The decision said Mr. Dmitrenko "receives missions" from Russian intelligence and also "does different jobs" for leaders of Russian organized crime.
A Political Tsunami
A few months after Mr. Alay's trips to Moscow, Catalonia erupted in protests.
A group calling itself Tsunami Democratic occupied the offices of one of Spain's largest banks, closed a main highway between France and Spain for two days and orchestrated the takeover of the Barcelona airport, forcing the cancellation of more than a hundred flights.
The group's origins have remained unclear, but one of the confidential police files stated that Mr. Alay attended a meeting in Geneva, where he and other independence activists finalized plans for Tsunami Democratic's unveiling.
Three days after Tsunami Democratic occupied the Barcelona airport, two Russians flew from Moscow to Barcelona, the Catalan capital, according to flight records obtained by The Times.
One was Sergei Sumin, whom the intelligence report describes as a colonel in Russia's Federal Protective Service, which oversees security for Mr. Putin and is not known for activities abroad.
The other was Artyom Lukoyanov, the adopted son of a top adviser to Mr. Putin, one who was deeply involved in Russia's efforts to support separatists in eastern Ukraine.
According to the intelligence report, Mr. Alay and Mr. Dmitrenko met the two men in Barcelona for a strategy session to discuss the independence movement, though the report offered no other details.
Mr. Alay denied any connection to Tsunami Democratic. He confirmed that he had met with Mr. Sumin and Mr. Lukoyanov at the request of Mr. Dmitrenko, but only to "greet them politely."
Even as the protests faded, Mr. Puigdemont's associates remained busy. His lawyer, Mr. Boye, flew to Moscow in February 2020 to meet Vasily Khristoforov, whom Western law enforcement agencies describe as a senior Russian organized crime figure. The goal, according to the report, was to enlist Mr. Khristoforov to help set up a secret funding channel for the independence movement.
In an interview, Mr. Boye acknowledged meeting in Moscow with Mr. Khristoforov, who is wanted in several countries including Spain on suspicion of financial crimes, but said they only discussed matters relating to Mr. Khristoforov's legal cases.
By late 2020, Mr. Alay's texts reveal an eagerness to keep his Russian contacts happy. In exchanges with Mr. Puigdemont and Mr. Boye, he said they should avoid any public statements that might anger Moscow, especially about the democracy protests that Russia was helping to disperse violently in Belarus.
Mr. Puigdemont did not always head the advice, appearing in Brussels with the Belarusian opposition and tweeting his support for the protesters, prompting Mr. Boye to text Mr. Alay that "we will have to tell the Russians that this was just to mislead."
Also the state prosecutor now considers that the former King of Spain engaged in illlicit dealings, getting fees for mediating in international business deals and then hiding those funds - which is something that everybody knew already, but now it's the opinion of the state prosecutor.
He can only be prosecuted if there's evidence he kept doing it after he abdicated, though, which the prosecutor is trying to obtain from Switzerland.
Puigdemont has just been detained by Italian police in Sardinia.
Extradition drama back in the news!
Reading some of the legal background, it seems likely he can get off easily, since his appeal against the removal of his parliamentary immunity has yet to be ruled upon, and the CJEU let the door open to granting it back temporarily if he was detained. I don't know why the Spanish Supreme Court is risking another setback instead of waiting until all the appeals are resolved.
But I'm no lawyer.
This stinks of deliberate move on Puchi's part.
If he's extradited and sentenced just in time for PP & Vox to claim the next government it could backfire spectacularly, though.
Quote from: Iormlund on September 24, 2021, 12:31:53 PM
This stinks of deliberate move on Puchi's part.
If he's extradited and sentenced just in time for PP & Vox to claim the next government it could backfire spectacularly, though.
He spent one night in jail. If you know Puchi you know there's no way on Earth he'll risk a single day in the slammer. I mean, he had parlamentary immunity for many months already, and he never dared to return to Spain even though it would be a massive propaganda coup, just for fear of possibly being jailed a few days if the Spanish court tried to play funny with his MEP status (which again, would also be a massive propaganda coup for him).
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Anyone read their books?
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/17/europe/spanish-female-writer-revealed-intl-scli/index.html
Quote
Lauded Spanish female crime writer revealed to be three men
By Hannah Ryan, CNN
Updated 1335 GMT (2135 HKT) October 17, 2021
(CNN)Spain's literary world has been thrown into chaos after a coveted book prize was awarded to "Carmen Mola" -- an acclaimed female thriller writer who turned out to be the pseudonym of three men.
Television scriptwriters Agustín Martínez, Jorge Díaz and Antonio Mercero shocked guests, who included Spain's King Felipe and Queen Letizia, at the Planeta awards Friday when they took to the stage to pick up the prize money and reveal the celebrated crime author did not actually exist.
On the website for Mola's agent, the writer -- who has been compared to Italy's esteemed novelist Elena Ferrante -- is described as a "Madrid-born author" writing under a pseudonym in a bid to remain anonymous. The description for Mola on the website also contains a series of photographs of an unknown woman looking away from the camera.
In previous interviews with Spanish media, Martínez, Díaz and Mercero had presented Mola as a female university professor who lived in Madrid with her husband and children.
Mola's novels usually revolve around the character of detective Elena Blanco, described by publisher Penguin Random House as a "peculiar and lonely woman" and a lover of "grappa, karaoke, collectors' cars and sex in SUVs."
However, the book that won the Planeta prize was not a story featuring Blanco. It is a historical thriller called "The Beast" set during a cholera epidemic in 1834 and centers around a serial killer who is hunted down by a journalist, a policeman and a young woman.
The Mola novels are well known for being gory and graphic -- and Spanish media has noted in the past that the contrast between Mola's supposed life as a married university professor and the violent nature of the books served as a useful marketing tool.
In an interview with the real authors following the revelation, Spain's El Mundo newspaper reported: "It is not lost on anyone that the idea of a university professor and mother of three, who teaches algebra classes in the morning and, in the afternoon, writes novels of savage and macabre violence has been a good marketing operation."
The news stunned many fellow literary figures -- and not everyone is thrilled about the news. Beatriz Gimeno, who describes herself as a writer and a feminist -- and who was once the director of the Women's Institute, a key national equality body in Spain -- took to Twitter to criticize Martínez, Díaz and Mercero.
In a tweet, Gimeno said: "Beyond using a female pseudonym, these guys have spent years doing interviews. It's not just the name, it's the fake profile they've used to take in readers and journalists. Scammers."
In 2020, a regional branch of the Women's Institute included Mola's work as part of a selection of "feminist reading" alongside Canadian poet Margaret Atwood and Spanish writer Irene Vallejo.
Mola was still listed as an author on the Penguin Random House website over the weekend. CNN has reached out to Penguin Random House for comment but has not received a reply yet.
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in your life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yeah, this is hardly new or exclusive to Spain. And we do have a problem with prostitution: it has grown rampant, it's a hotspot of organized crime, and many women are coerced into it.
That said, I don't expect anything to be done with it in the short term. Actually this pledge has got very little attention in the Spanish press.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 17, 2021, 07:16:45 PM
Anyone read their books?
No, and I wasn't even aware of "her" until this controversy happened. But then again Spanish noir is far from my making my reading list :P
Nom de plumes are fine, and I love people going all in on their nom de plumes with fictional biographies, fake interviews and such, in the name of fun. But it feels like these guys have milked the fact that this was a woman (and there's a cultural drive to highlight the work of female writers) a bit too much - and only came clean because there was €1 million on the line.
That said, people seem to be taking it jokingly rather than going on a cancelling drive.
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2021, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in you life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yes.
The left more usually when it has anything outside the ordinary to say comes from the recognise its a fact of life,: legalise, tax, protect and empower the women, angle.
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2021, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in you life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yes.
The left more usually when it has anything outside the ordinary to say comes from the recognise its a fact of life,: legalise, tax, protect and empower the women, angle.
There are many feminist takes against prostitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution#Arguments_against_prostitution
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2021, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in you life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yes.
The left more usually when it has anything outside the ordinary to say comes from the recognise its a fact of life,: legalise, tax, protect and empower the women, angle.
What? That's at least in part a "leave it to the market" approach, by legalising and taxing it, and seeing the countries that fully legalize prostitution in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary and Latvia, none of them leftist strongholds) it really boggles the mind where you took that approach as the "left wing" one. I'd guess that the route that Pedro Sánchez announced is the French/Scandinavian one (go after the customers, protect the women), but as cel said it's not been really developed and it has generated very little traction in the media. It will have to be seen if in the next general elections it is highlighted or not.
Quote from: The Larch on October 18, 2021, 04:51:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2021, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in you life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yes.
The left more usually when it has anything outside the ordinary to say comes from the recognise its a fact of life,: legalise, tax, protect and empower the women, angle.
What? That's at least in part a "leave it to the market" approach, by legalising and taxing it, and seeing the countries that fully legalize prostitution in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary and Latvia, none of them leftist strongholds) it really boggles the mind where you took that approach as the "left wing" one. I'd guess that the route that Pedro Sánchez announced is the French/Scandinavian one (go after the customers, protect the women), but as cel said it's not been really developed and it has generated very little traction in the media. It will have to be seen if in the next general elections it is highlighted or not.
Tyr :lol:
The French approach has made things worse, with the activity going through Internet and sex workers being even more exploited.
QuoteThere are many feminist takes against prostitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution#Arguments_against_prostitution
I wonder what the overlap with TERFs looks like.
Quote from: The Larch on October 18, 2021, 04:51:53 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2021, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in you life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yes.
The left more usually when it has anything outside the ordinary to say comes from the recognise its a fact of life,: legalise, tax, protect and empower the women, angle.
What? That's at least in part a "leave it to the market" approach, by legalising and taxing it, and seeing the countries that fully legalize prostitution in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary and Latvia, none of them leftist strongholds) it really boggles the mind where you took that approach as the "left wing" one. I'd guess that the route that Pedro Sánchez announced is the French/Scandinavian one (go after the customers, protect the women), but as cel said it's not been really developed and it has generated very little traction in the media. It will have to be seen if in the next general elections it is highlighted or not.
Its not leave it to the market at all.
Its the left wing approach in that it recognises reality for what it is and sees it as a social ill to be solved rather than futilely shouting about morality of the nasty crime and demanding the bad things stop or else you'll be punished in the conservative fashion.
It is a practical solution to a part of life that empowers the workers (largely vulnerable people) and takes criminals out of the equation.
In the UK it is Labour who have moved things in this direction against Conservative opposition. You continue to see calls for further legalisation coming most strongly from the left.
e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-decriminalise-sex-industry-prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39909126
If women are being exploited then logic suggests the exploiters be the ones to be thrown in prison. How are the customers supposed to know if the sex worker they are hiring is a legitimate worker or somebody being human trafficked? And surely throwing the sex workers in prison is not the answer either. The whole "Let's destroy sex work" approach has centuries and centuries of failure behind it doesn't it?
Quote from: garbon on October 18, 2021, 02:51:33 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Quote from: chipwich on October 18, 2021, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 17, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
BBC News - Pedro Sanchez: Spanish PM vows to abolish prostitution
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58947172)
Well this is a backwards step. I'm very surprised to see it coming from a left wing PM too. Expected on clicking the article it'd be coming from the typical feelings over logic think of the children right.
Stupid stuff. Wtf?
Is this the first time in you life you've seen left wing opposition to prostitution?
Yes.
The left more usually when it has anything outside the ordinary to say comes from the recognise its a fact of life,: legalise, tax, protect and empower the women, angle.
There are many feminist takes against prostitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution#Arguments_against_prostitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution#Arguments_against_prostitution)
There are feminists against everything. If you look hard enough, you'll find feminists against women.
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2021, 08:47:07 AM
If women are being exploited then logic suggests the exploiters be the ones to be thrown in prison. How are the customers supposed to know if the sex worker they are hiring is a legitimate worker or somebody being human trafficked? And surely throwing the sex workers in prison is not the answer either. The whole "Let's destroy sex work" approach has centuries and centuries of failure behind it doesn't it?
isn't the whole prostitution is bad thing a legacy from WW1 and STD's?
*edit i mean the modern sense of bad as in illegal, not the moral you're going to hell sense.
Quote from: HVC on October 18, 2021, 09:16:56 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 18, 2021, 08:47:07 AM
If women are being exploited then logic suggests the exploiters be the ones to be thrown in prison. How are the customers supposed to know if the sex worker they are hiring is a legitimate worker or somebody being human trafficked? And surely throwing the sex workers in prison is not the answer either. The whole "Let's destroy sex work" approach has centuries and centuries of failure behind it doesn't it?
isn't the whole prostitution is bad thing a legacy from WW1 and STD's?
*edit i mean the modern sense of bad as in illegal, not the moral you're going to hell sense.
Err, no.
The idea that sex should only occurr between married people goes at least as far back as the early Christian church, if not much further back.
Quote from: celedhring on October 18, 2021, 12:59:10 AM
Yeah, this is hardly new or exclusive to Spain. And we do have a problem with prostitution: it has grown rampant, it's a hotspot of organized crime, and many women are coerced into it.
That said, I don't expect anything to be done with it in the short term. Actually this pledge has got very little attention in the Spanish press.
Yeah - I don't know what view I have on prostitution but I think the issue with legalisation in Spain and I believe Germany too is that I think demand has been far higher than people willing to do that type work without coercion.
Today the Catalan branch of Podemos has answered that they want to protect the right of women to be sex workers if chosen freely, so there isn't even a consensus in the Spanish left for going full ban. It won't happen.
The current legal limbo - it's not criminal, but it's not regulated - feels to me like the worst of both worlds though.
Also, first time in many months that this thread gets traction and it's when we talk about prossies. :P
Quote from: celedhring on October 19, 2021, 09:59:13 AM
Also, first time in many months that this thread gets traction and it's when we talk about prossies. :P
Sex sells!
The last big activity I recall was the hot nazi.
So yes.
Quote from: Tyr on October 19, 2021, 10:18:34 AM
The last big activity I recall was the hot nazi.
So yes.
I just landed on a random piece of news about her. Apparently she's now spending time in Germany in a "scholarship" offered by Der III Weg.
I guess you gotta learn from the OGs.
So it turns out that last Saturday Pablo Casado, PP's extremely beleaguered (and not exactly competence-exuding) leader attended "by mistake" a mass honouring Franco. :wacko:
(November 20th is the anniversary of Franco's death and one of the most symbolic days for the Spanish nostalgic far right, with masses and celebrations honouring Franco and other "luminaries" of Francoism in many places around Spain).
Quote from: The Larch on November 22, 2021, 10:02:47 AM
So it turns out that last Saturday Pablo Casado, PP's extremely beleaguered (and not exactly competence-exuding) leader attended "by mistake" a mass honouring Franco. :wacko:
I hope the Spanish internet is doing the Withnail and I "we've gone to a mass honouring a fascist dictator by mistake" :P
Reminds me of Corbyn who was at a wreath laying ceremony at the graves of some of the Black September leadership - his defence was he "attended, but did not participate" in the ceremony :lol: :bleeding:
When will mass honorings stop? :(
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 22, 2021, 01:15:12 PM
Quote from: The Larch on November 22, 2021, 10:02:47 AM
So it turns out that last Saturday Pablo Casado, PP's extremely beleaguered (and not exactly competence-exuding) leader attended "by mistake" a mass honouring Franco. :wacko:
I hope the Spanish internet is doing the Withnail and I "we've gone to a mass honouring a fascist dictator by mistake" :P
Reminds me of Corbyn who was at a wreath laying ceremony at the graves of some of the Black September leadership - his defence was he "attended, but did not participate" in the ceremony :lol: :bleeding:
It has had surprisingly little traction in the media so far, no major outlet that I know has picked it up, but of course it was all over Twitter and was covered by a fact checking site that corroborated it. To add insult to injury, the Francisco Franco Foundation (yes, it exists) today published a media note denying having invited him to the mass, but thanking him for having attended. :lol:
My guess is that it will pile up in the growing list of anecdotes to support that he's simply speaking not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Edit: So, yesterday the fact itself attracted little media attention but today the reactions are getting coverage:
QuoteSpanish rightwing party leader under fire for attending Franco mass
Leader of People's party Pablo Casado's appearance at service for dictator called a 'coincidence'
pain's rightwing People's party (PP) has been compelled to reiterate its condemnation of the Franco regime after the party's leader was criticised for inadvertently attending a mass at which prayers were said for the soul of the dictator on the 46th anniversary of his death.
Pablo Casado, who has led the PP since July 2018, was seen attending the mass in a church next to Granada cathedral on Saturday evening. According to the PP, Casado – who was in Andalucía for a party conference – took his family to mass there because it was near his hotel and because he thought work commitments would stop him making it to church the following day.
"At no point was [Casado] aware that prayers would be said for the dictator," the PP said in a statement on Monday. "In fact, there was no express mention of 'Franco' in the homily."
The party said its leader had only become aware that prayers had been offered for the dictator using Franco's first name, Francisco, the day after he had gone to the mass.
"He never knew that they were going to pray for Franco," the statement said, adding: "The People's party has always condemned the Franco dictatorship."
The statement came after Casado's political opponents had demanded to know exactly what had happened.
A spokesperson for the Spanish Socialist Workers' party (PSOE), which leads Spain's coalition government, described Casado's presence at the mass "a totally irresponsible insult" and called on the PP leader to explain himself.
Pablo Echenique, a spokesperson for Unidas Podemos, the PSOE's junior coalition partners, also said an explanation needed to be forthcoming.
"Last Saturday there were 10 masses for Franco and there are about 23,000 churches," Echenique said in a tweet. "The probability of randomly stumbling into one is 0.05% – yet, according to sources from his own PP, Pablo Casado managed it."
Íñigo Errejón, the leader of the Más País party, said that while Casado may have attended the mass unknowingly he still needed to address the matter. "If this had happened in another country – if Angela Merkel was travelling through Germany, found herself in Munich and went into a church where people were paying homage to Adolf Hitler – then I'm sure she would have come out the following day and said: 'I was wrong. I didn't want to be there and I'm sorry of I've offended the democrats of my country'."
But not everyone was outraged. The Francisco Franco National Foundation – which exists to preserve and promote the dictator's legacy – said that while it had not "expressly" invited Casado to the mass, it was pleased he had been there.
"We thank Mr Casado and his family, and the rest of those who attended the mass, for the prayer for the soul of an exemplary Christian such as Francisco Franco Bahamonde."
The incident comes as the PP continues to lead in the polls despite internal rifts and tensions over the party's ideological direction, and a few days after the government tabled amendments to draft legislation that would in effect allow prosecutors to investigate crimes committed under the 1939-75 Franco regime on the basis that crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide and torture have no statute of limitations under international humanitarian law.
Today, besides discussing Eurovision, the main topic in Spain is our own mini/local version of the assault on the capital, after pig farmers in the Murcian city of Lorca assaulted the local city hall ahead of a vote on new regulations that would restrict the opening of new farms.
Not many links in English, this one seems to be clumsily/Google translated but at laest it's something.
QuoteLorca farmers assault the City Council and force to suspend a plenary session on the pig macro-farms
The Lorca City Council had convened a plenary session on Monday to vote on a motion on the new urban planning for pig farms and macro-farms, and that it was to be approved with the votes of the PSOE, Cs and IU. Minutes before the plenary session, at ten o'clock in the morning, farmers from the municipality have gathered at the gates of the Consistory to protest the measures contained in the motion and that establish the distance of these pig facilities with respect to the urban area and spaces natural, and some of them – up to thirty – have jumped the police cordon, sneaking into the City Hall and leading moments of high tension, as this newspaper has learned from eyewitnesses.
"They have had to escort us to be able to leave the room," says Pepe García, from Stop Cebaderos near houses in Lorca, who had attended this morning (on Monday) as a public to the plenary together with representatives of other organizations that fight to move pig facilities away from the urban core. "The actions of the ranchers have been disproportionate, and are motivated by false information from the PP, Vox and people with particular interests, who have sent a message that some points of the motion had been modified, but it had already been debated last year. past and today we only voted".
The motion contemplates that the new pig farms, whatever the classification group to which they belong, cannot be installed less than 1,500 meters from the urban land of the nucleus of Lorca, the nuclei of districts, schools, health centers and medical consultants; nor less than 500 meters from springs or cataloged natural sources or less than 100 meters from boulevards or riverbeds listed in the Inventory of Riverbeds of the Region of Murcia, among other measures.
"For years now, the focus has been on the legality of these facilities, the concessions of permits, the use they make of water, it's all hand in hand and the livestock sector doesn't want them to get involved," complains Pepe García, who He adds "that we have already gone many times with all these dossiers to the Prosecutor's Office, but the powers that be are what they are".
The Association of Livestock Entrepreneurs of Lorca (Acega) had organized a demonstration this Monday that planned to go through Juan Carlos I de Lorca Avenue to the Local Development Center, and they planned to move with their vehicles through some roads of the municipality to end up walking the last section, in a march that had the support of the Federation of Agricultural Cooperatives of the Region of Murcia (Fecoam), PP and Vox.
The farmers criticize that the City Council is not going to comply with the agreement reached in July 2020, tightening the measures approved at that time, which already limited the granting of licenses and established minimum distances between pig facilities and urban centers.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKQDUBjThfY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKQDUBjThfY)
No QAnon shaman here, but apparently there was a Travis Bickle cosplayer. :P
For context, industrial animal farming is a really hot button political issue in Spain lately, as in the last few years massive (mostly pig) farms have popped up all over Spain, most often in our almost desolated countryside (Lorca is actually the 2nd municipality in Spain by number of pigs, apparently), to the point of those macro farms have become problematic for the local environment, and have recently been also questioned about the quality of the meat produced in them as well as other related topics like animal welfare and the like.
We recently had a bit of a controversy when the minister for Consumer Affairs (Alberto Garzón, from the Podemos - United Left side of the coalition) called for Spanish people to change their diets and eat "less meat, but better meat", or something like that in a fairly inocuous interview to The Guardian (you can read it here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/26/spanish-should-eat-less-meat-to-limit-climate-crisis-says-minister (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/26/spanish-should-eat-less-meat-to-limit-climate-crisis-says-minister)), due to, in part, the impact of these industrial mega farms in the environment and their role on climate change. When this interview was reported in Spain, what Garzón said got twisted and PP turned it into a "the government is against the countryside and its farmers" spearhead, and called for Garzón to be removed from the government, which didn't happen, although PSOE didn't really defend Garzón very much. It could even be said that the whole thing kinda backfired, as now this model of industrial animal farming is being openly debated, with many calls to further regulate it, when it was a topic that had been basically ignored for years.
The controversy, rather than eventually dying down as it should, has been kept alive by PP, as we're at the moment in the campaign for regional elections in Castilla León (a very rural region of the coutnry, in which agriculture still has an important role in the regional economy, and this "defence of our farmers' honour" has become one of their leitmotivs, to the point that it has almost become a joke to see Casado constantly visiting ranchers, farmers, food factories and the like. I was not aware of Murcia being another hotbed for this kind of farming but I'm not really surprised, as it's a region that is also heavily agricultural and whose economy depends a lot on food production, so the model repeats itself, in this case with the local mayor (PSOE) trying to regulate the industry (quite timidly, as it's not as if a local government has many powers about it, it was mostly about keeping farms far away from housing and water sources) and the local farmers, supported by PP and VOX (some of their local politicians were in the group that was protesting, although AFAIK they were not involved in the assault), bitterly protesting any attempt at regulating them.
We just had regional elections in Castilla y León, where PP has been in government since 1987. The PP regional president, in coalition with Ciudadanos, called for an early election following a strategy set up by the national party, in order recover an absolute majority and to boost the party's national leadership. Let's just say that it didn't go as planned.
The campaign has been mightily bizarre, with Pablo Casado, PP's national leader, involving himself a lot in it and providing plenty of ridiculuos images and headlines, and cementing his image as not the sharpest tool in the shed, so to speak. The end of the campaign became even more ridiculous than the beginning, with PP entering in their foaming in the mouth Mr. Hyde version, bringing out the ghost of ETA and the usual boogeymen.
As expected, once the results were in, Ciudadanos was wiped (it's still there, but with only one MP), and has been replaced as 3rd party by VOX, who will now have to be PP's partner in order for them to retain the regional government. VOX has already demanded to be included in the regional government in order to give PP their support, which would make it the first time they actually get into any kind of official government spot in Spain, as until now they had always been kept at arms length, only providing support from outside the government.
New provincial parties (several provincial parties gathering under a common platform) meant to represent the growing disenchantment in the "hollowed out Spain" (ie, the interior regions facing depopulation, aging populations and lack of investment) got a worse result than expected, as all of them except one failed to get a single MP. The one that succeeded did very well, though, in the province of Soria, becoming the leading party in the province. If this example becomes successful it bodes ill for PP and PSOE in the next national elections, as they'd stand to loose plenty of MPs in the smaller provinces, which they've always basically split amongtst the two of them.
PSOE did somehow well, retaining a strong but ultimately powerless position, with decent results. Podemos remains irrelevant, and is saved from dissappearing from the regional parliament by a very lonely MP. If they don't change course I don't see them doing well in the future, and they'll want to avoid becoming the new Ciudadanos, in this sense.
All in all, the situation remains the same, but exchanging Ciudadanos for Vox as junior party in the coalition government. Let's just say that a master strategist Pablo Casado is not.
Casado is dumber than a box of rocks. Absolute lack of self-awareness, too - his campaigning for this election has been truly surreal. I guess it comes when you surround yourself with sycophants.
He may well be the next Spanish president. <_<
Quote from: celedhring on February 14, 2022, 02:32:25 AM
Casado is dumber than a box of rocks. Absolute lack of self-awareness, too - his campaigning for this election has been truly surreal. I guess it comes when you surround yourself with sycophants.
He may well be the next Spanish president. <_<
Think deeply about this... do you prefer him or Ayuso? :ph34r:
Christ, they do make Rajoy look like a titan of statemanship.
I guess Casado. Ayuso is actually good at populism - which scares me - while Casado bumbles all the time.
Quote from: celedhring on February 14, 2022, 03:06:21 AM
Christ, they do make Rajoy look like a titan of statemanship.
I guess Casado. Ayuso is actually good at populism - which scares me - while Casado bumbles all the time.
The "Otros vendrán que bueno te harán" refrán rings true, all the time. :lol:
It's kinda amazing the scorched earth that PP ended up with after Casado's election as party head. Everybody who was something in the Rajoy governments is done and dusted. There's literally nobody they can bring up from their current leading spots that can make you think "Yeah, he/she could do a good job". I mean, if Soraya (who I always thought was the one "meant" to succeed Rajoy) returned they should roll out a red carpet for her. The moment PP chose Casado over her was a massive lost opportunity.
Well, the stink of corruption from the Rajoy governments certainly made retaining all that "talent" a bit problematic. :P
But you know the conservatives are in trouble (and by extension, the country), when the most palatable PP politician is your pal Frijolito.
Quote from: celedhring on February 14, 2022, 04:27:23 AM
Well, the stink of corruption from the Rajoy governments certainly made retaining all that "talent" a bit problematic. :P
Oh sure, there was no chance that people like Cospedal could continue, but Soraya was always the "cleanest" of them all.
QuoteBut you know the conservatives are in trouble (and by extension, the country), when the most palatable PP politician is your pal Frijolito.
Not my pal. :P
But yeah, when a guy who was caught red handed with a well known smuggler is their best hope for electability...
I mean, many people expected him to go national and compete for the leadership back then, but he must have felt that it'd imply several years of desert crossing and it was better for somebody else to burn themselves rather than him, and come later as their saviour.
Calling an early election only to end up in a position where you have to rely on fascists is really 5D chess.
Quote from: Zanza on February 14, 2022, 05:03:47 PM
Calling an early election only to end up in a position where you have to rely on fascists is really 5D chess.
There's a bit of internal party politics at play. Casado's position is being threatened by Isabel Díaz-Ayuso, the Madrid president who obtained a sweeping victory last year in the Madrid regional election and who's become a darling of the conservative media. Casado wanted to dillute that victory with further victories in this regional election and then another one in Andalucía later in the year. That way he could claim that it was PP winning, not Ayuso winning, and strengthen his control of the party. His gambit has fantastically exploded in his face, and Ayuso is already agitating for change.
And it's on! "Somebody" leaked to the Spanish press that people in Casado's team tried to hire investigators to get kompromat on Ayuso's brother (who allegedly would have benefitted from Covid-19 contracts given out by her sister's administration).
That party is such a swamp.
So they don't have any shoplifting videos this time. :P
Summary for a very eventful day:
QuoteMadrid's president accuses own party leader of 'cruel' smear campaign
Isabel Díaz Ayuso says Pablo Casado has tried to destroy her reputation amid reports he hired private investigators
The regional president of Madrid has accused the leadership of her own conservative People's party (PP) of waging a "cruel and unfair" campaign to destroy her with false corruption allegations amid reports the party tried to hire private detectives to investigate her family.
Isabel Díaz Ayuso, who is often touted as a future PP leader, spoke out after media reports suggested that, during the first wave of the Covid pandemic, her administration gave a €1.5m contract for face masks to a company linked to her brother – for which he received a commission.
The reports also alleged that an official in Madrid city hall – which is also run by the PP – contacted a firm of private detectives with a view to getting them to investigate Ayuso and her family.
Relations between Ayuso and the PP's leader, Pablo Casado, have been fraught over recent months. While Ayuso has bolstered her national and international profile since winning an emphatic victory in last year's Madrid regional election, Casado has faced questions over his leadership strategies – not least the party's recent, pyrrhic victory in last week's Castilla y León regional election.
On Thursday morning, the PP mayor of Madrid, José Luis Martínez-Almeida, said he had looked into the reports that his administration had sought to hire a detective firm to spy on Ayuso and her family, and said he had found no evidence of such an arrangement.
A little later, Ayuso went on the offensive.
"Even though political life is full of heartaches, I could never have imagined that the national leadership of my party would act against me in such a cruel and unfair way," she said in a televised address.
"There is nothing more serious than accusing someone in your own house, and who has a responsibility to govern, of corruption."
Ayuso said that PP leaders had spent months putting together a dossier on her and her family in an attempt to associate them with corruption when all the party had to do was look at publicly available documents relating to the contract.
"The fact that they were preparing a file means that they weren't searching for any truth; they were trying to smear me personally and politically," she said.
Ayuso did not deny that the face mask contract had been awarded to a company linked to her brother, but she insisted the process had been completely legal.
"I asked my brother and he confirmed that he had had a business relationship with the company and that it was all completely legal, and that everything had been declared to the tax authorities," she said.
She also challenged Casado and his circle to provide any proof whatsoever of wrongdoing, and pointed to her own electoral success.
"I'd like to know how many votes those who have spent months attacking me have won for the PP," she said. "It's very hurtful that the leaders of your party are not the ones who support you, but the ones who want to destroy you."
The PP's general secretary, Teodoro García Egea, hit back at Ayuso later on Thursday, saying that it had only sought her cooperation in examining the allegations, and adding that an investigation had been launched.
"Since we received information about these alleged irregularities over the summer and asked Isabel Díaz Ayuso about their veracity, all we've got from that direction – instead of a clear answer – is a massive campaign of attacks, packs of lies and slanders like the ones we've had today," he said.
Quote from: The Larch on February 17, 2022, 03:02:21 PM
Summary for a very eventful day:
Eventful kinda undersells it, I wanted to get some work done but I just couldn't stop looking away while the party imploded, furiously F5ing El Mundo et al :lol:
Are they normal conservative or fascist conservative? Trying to gauge how amused I should be.
Quote from: HVC on February 17, 2022, 03:42:27 PM
Are they normal conservative or fascist conservative? Trying to gauge how amused I should be.
Christian democrats. Low on ideology, high on corruption (having been in and out of governments for the past 30 years).
The fact that Ángel Carromero has resurfaced as the mastermind behind the alleged botched espionage attempt is particularly amusing. He's the guy that 10 years ago went to Cuba to meet an anti-Castro activist leader, and killed him in a car crash. Either a commie double-agent or a truly smooth operator.
Quote from: celedhring on February 17, 2022, 04:37:04 PM
The fact that Ángel Carromero has resurfaced as the mastermind behind the alleged botched espionage attempt is particularly amusing. He's the guy that 10 years ago went to Cuba to meet an anti-Castro activist leader, and killed him in a car crash. Either a commie double-agent or a truly smooth operator.
When he was driving way over the speed limit and without a licence. "No me mates" Carromero indeed. :lol:
If that's the skill of the "plumbers" available to Casado, he is toast.
What's worrying is that PP have quite an institutional history of doing this kind of underhanded shit - to both political foes or "friends" - Fernández Díaz, the "Little Gestapo", Kitchen, Método 3, now this... The list is getting quite long.
Of course, the alternative to PP right now is a bunch of fascists, so we're kinda between a really jagged rock and a hard place coated in acid.
I don't know if it's ironic or cringeworthy that Ayuso is so easily and nonchalantly admitting that his brother took massive comissions from his government.
Only one poll etc etc - but :ph34r: :bleeding:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FL_LNqxUYAAgpSl?format=jpg&name=small)
More than a handful of salt is needed for that poll, given that it comes from possibly the most despicable media source in the country.
Quote from: The Larch on February 19, 2022, 04:13:08 PM
More than a handful of salt is needed for that poll, given that it comes from possibly the most despicable media source in the country.
I hope so although presumably that's a reputable polling company, looking at the Wiki their previous polls don't look that out of whack. It seems like Vox have been floating around 17-20% this year so maybe it shouldn't be a shock to see them so high, though it still is - especially given they didn't really matter at all politically just 5 years ago.
That poll feels very much like someone who doesn't like the PP (understandable) got hold of a monkey's paw :ph34r:
Edit: Apparently another poll showing Vox in second place tomorrow (in El Espanol I think). It's hard to think how any of these shenanigans and cunning plans could have gone worse for the PP.
In a few months it might not mean anything at all, as right now there are no elections in sight (closest ones are the Andalusian regional elections in October) and PP will bounce from this low point. It remains to be seen what kind of PP will be the one to bounce, though, as I think this whole affair has made Casado a dead man walking. There's no way he'll continue leading the party and will be given the boot as soon as PP hold their national conference (originally expected for the summer, but which might get pushed ahead given the crisis), which apparently many regional leaders are asking for in order to do a complete renovation of the party's leadership.
What remains to be seen is if this affair will also cost Ayuso her spot. Apparently she's the one who has "won" it, given that Casado's attempt to knife her in the back didn't fully succeed, but she has admitted to blatant corruption, something that inside PP is overlooked, as it's almost a given, but it will be a huge issue in any new election, either regional or national, unless a massive media operation to swoop it under the table is undertaken.
(https://static.eldiario.es/clip/7012aabb-23ca-41b6-9058-cdd3e42753a5_16-9-discover-aspect-ratio_default_0.jpg)
And this morning around 3 thousand people gathered in fron of PP's HQ (the infamous Génova street building that they announced one year ago they'd get rid of, but sitll haven't done so) in order to support Ayuso and demand Casado's resignation.
Quote from: The Larch on February 19, 2022, 08:04:39 PM
What remains to be seen is if this affair will also cost Ayuso her spot. Apparently she's the one who has "won" it, given that Casado's attempt to knife her in the back didn't fully succeed, but she has admitted to blatant corruption, something that inside PP is overlooked, as it's almost a given, but it will be a huge issue in any new election, either regional or national, unless a massive media operation to swoop it under the table is undertaken.
She's not addmited to it, to be honest, just essentially given a non-answer that will be enough for her partisans to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. She's got the same Teflon armor as Trump.
And she won't be prosecuted unless there's a smoking gun somewhere, and I guess there isn't.
Quote from: celedhring on February 20, 2022, 10:53:40 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 19, 2022, 08:04:39 PM
What remains to be seen is if this affair will also cost Ayuso her spot. Apparently she's the one who has "won" it, given that Casado's attempt to knife her in the back didn't fully succeed, but she has admitted to blatant corruption, something that inside PP is overlooked, as it's almost a given, but it will be a huge issue in any new election, either regional or national, unless a massive media operation to swoop it under the table is undertaken.
She's not addmited to it, to be honest, just essentially given a non-answer that will be enough for her partisans to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. She's got the same Teflon armor as Trump.
And she won't be prosecuted unless there's a smoking gun somewhere, and I guess there isn't.
I wouldn't be so sure, I don't think she has escaped unescathed. At the very least her closet's door has opened a bit and a glimpse has been taken at her accumulated skeletons. She has a vulnerability now, and the Madrid opposition (that has been after those contracts for a while) should take things to court, as well as keep investigating other possible cases (the Zendal could be another possible front, and there's always the case of the elderly patients left to die in care homes during the pandemic's 1st wave).
On top of that, it remains to be seen how effective is that Teflon Armour and her *charm* outside Madrid. They could be surprised.
Quote from: The Larch on February 20, 2022, 11:28:03 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 20, 2022, 10:53:40 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 19, 2022, 08:04:39 PM
What remains to be seen is if this affair will also cost Ayuso her spot. Apparently she's the one who has "won" it, given that Casado's attempt to knife her in the back didn't fully succeed, but she has admitted to blatant corruption, something that inside PP is overlooked, as it's almost a given, but it will be a huge issue in any new election, either regional or national, unless a massive media operation to swoop it under the table is undertaken.
She's not addmited to it, to be honest, just essentially given a non-answer that will be enough for her partisans to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. She's got the same Teflon armor as Trump.
And she won't be prosecuted unless there's a smoking gun somewhere, and I guess there isn't.
I wouldn't be so sure, I don't think she has escaped unescathed. At the very least her closet's door has opened a bit and a glimpse has been taken at her accumulated skeletons. She has a vulnerability now, and the Madrid opposition (that has been after those contracts for a while) should take things to court, as well as keep investigating other possible cases (the Zendal could be another possible front, and there's always the case of the elderly patients left to die in care homes during the pandemics 1st wave.
On top of that, it remains to be seen how effective is that Teflon Armour and her *charm* outside Madrid. They could be surprised.
Oh absolutely, ultimately her pandering politics aren't too different from the ones practised by my dear Catalan nationalists - keep your hands off our money and here's some victim complex and identity politics to make it look less crass - and the Madrid press keep confusing the whole country with the capital. The few PP voters I know around here totally despise her.
She's ultimately Esperanza Aguirre 2.0, only less funny. She might be hyper successful within the boundaries of Madrid, but it's not an act with a huge potential audience outside of them.
Spain was the lucky exception until a few years ago in not having an ultra-right party. Too bad it deteriorated so that Vox is now the second largest party...
Quote from: Zanza on February 20, 2022, 11:51:29 AM
Spain was the lucky exception until a few years ago in not having an ultra-right party. Too bad it deteriorated so that Vox is now the second largest party...
I wouldn't really count on VOX overcoming PP in the long run. Another poll published today but with polling performed right before the scandal has them holding to 2nd spot at 21.3%, with VOX 3rd at 19.8%, and PSOE holding to 1st at 26.7%. And besides. there are no elections in sight on the short term to capitalize on any temporary boost. PP will boot Casado away, lick their wounds and go back to its role as head of the right in Spain, although featuring a festering boil.
So it looks like it's going to be frijolito. I know little of him besides his penchant for keeping the company of narcos, but he appears to be a bit too "classic conservative" to appeal to the Vox crowd. Then again, I much prefer a classic conservative at the head of PP that some populist bullshitter.
Of all the major candidates in the 2019 general election, only Sánchez (who won) and Abascal remain - and that crop of candidates already was a "new generation".
Quote from: celedhring on February 23, 2022, 03:38:59 AM
So it looks like it's going to be frijolito. I know little of him besides his penchant for keeping the company of narcos, but he appears to be a bit too "classic conservative" to appeal to the Vox crowd. Then again, I much prefer a classic conservative at the head of PP that some populist bullshitter.
I'm not yet 100% sure of that. Feijóo seems to want to become leader "by acclamation", without internal opposition and as a consensus candidate, and it remains to be seen if it will be that way. Some extreme "Ayusistas" seem to claim that she's the only one who can guarantee a chance of victory in a general election, even if she herself has ruled herself out from the leadership challenge at the national level (although who knows). I think she's "damaged goods" at this point, but can still keep her position in Madrid without much trouble.
On top of that, something that is being used against Feijóo, as ridiculous as it sounds, is that he's a crypto-nationalist (hillarious, I know). VOX already sniped heavily at him in the past with that argument, and now even Cs has used that line. It's truly ridiculous that for a not irrelevant sector of the Spanish right anything that is not unabashed rah rah centralism is labeled as "nationalist". Thing is, with Feijóo at the helm a PP-VOX agreement for government would be even more complicated than now, and that really reduces their chances of regaining power at the national level, which is the ultimate goal.
Regarding his style of govenrment, I'd have a few choice words about it. :lol: It's not quite as classic conservative as you think, it's rather more low key neo-lib, without much penchant for grand proclamations, and doing stuff on the down low, without calling much attention, but moving things little by little. A bit like a political version of the frog in the increasingly hot water, so to speak. And of course, everything bad that happens is the opposition's fault, even if they don't hold any political power at all.
QuoteOf all the major candidates in the 2019 general election, only Sánchez (who won) and Abascal remain - and that crop of candidates already was a "new generation".
And it's more than likely that Cs will either dissappear or become irrelevant, while Podemos seems destined to yet another transformation into a different electoral vehicle with Yolanda Díaz fronting it in order to remain a force. It's quite disheartening that at the end of the day the only new party that could get established breaking the old PP-PSOE order is VOX. :(
Quote from: The Larch on February 23, 2022, 08:48:26 AM
And it's more than likely that Cs will either dissappear or become irrelevant, while Podemos seems destined to yet another transformation into a different electoral vehicle with Yolanda Díaz fronting it in order to remain a force. It's quite disheartening that at the end of the day the only new party that could get established breaking the old PP-PSOE order is VOX. :(
Because both Iglesias and Rivera tried to shift their parties away from the values their initial voters held. Abascal hasn't made the same mistake. He's an old school reactionary with a tinge of Trumpism and he sticks to it.
The prosecutor has dropped charges against former king Juan Carlos. He considers there was malfeasance, but it falls on the period he was still king, and he's thus non-prosecutable. He was being investigated for corruption, fraud, and money laundering. Reading the document, it seems that the fiscal fraud part is proven - and while it can't establish strong evidence about the other crimes, it's strongly hinted at (he would have hid the money from the taxman to hide an unlawful provenance). As a public official he was also forbidden from receiving gifts.
Given that everybody is distracted with what's going on in Ukraine, this feels like an attempt to bury the news.
Quote from: celedhring on March 03, 2022, 02:28:19 AMThe prosecutor has dropped charges against former king Juan Carlos. He considers there was malfeasance, but it falls on the period he was still king, and he's thus non-prosecutable. He was being investigated for corruption, fraud, and money laundering. Reading the document, it seems that the fiscal fraud part is proven - and while it can't establish strong evidence about the other crimes, it's strongly hinted at (he would have hid the money from the taxman to hide an unlawful provenance). As a public official he was also forbidden from receiving gifts.
Given that everybody is distracted with what's going on in Ukraine, this feels like an attempt to bury the news.
Well, whatever happens to him judicially (AFAIK he also has other cases open at the moment outside of Spain), his reputation is already in the shitter, so it's not as if it could get much worse.
Spun off from the Ukrainian thread:
Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2022, 04:33:18 AMQuote from: celedhring on March 25, 2022, 04:24:35 AMRegarding Northern Africa, I do wonder whether Spain's sudden U-turn on the status of Sahara as something to do with all this affair - although it has greatly annoyed Algeria.
Don't think so, I'd say it's mostly for other domestic issues, but maybe we should bring back the "shit in Spain" thread for that discussion. :P
What domestic issues? Annoying their own electorate? :lol:
I'm kinda at a loss about the motivation for the change. I mean, I get it, it's plain political realism - the Sahara referendum is just a pipe dream by now -, but can't see what the government had to gain with going with the policy reversal so suddenly, and so bluntly.
Quote from: celedhring on March 25, 2022, 04:47:38 AMSpun off from the Ukrainian thread:
Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2022, 04:33:18 AMQuote from: celedhring on March 25, 2022, 04:24:35 AMRegarding Northern Africa, I do wonder whether Spain's sudden U-turn on the status of Sahara as something to do with all this affair - although it has greatly annoyed Algeria.
Don't think so, I'd say it's mostly for other domestic issues, but maybe we should bring back the "shit in Spain" thread for that discussion. :P
What domestic issues? Annoying their own electorate? :lol:
I'm kinda at a loss about the motivation for the change. I mean, I get it, it's plain political realism - the Sahara referendum is just a pipe dream by now -, but can't see what the government had to gain with going with the policy reversal so suddenly, and so bluntly.
With Morocco it always boils down to cooperation in handling inmigrants and policing the strait. I believe there were also lingering border issues in Ceuta & Melilla and with cross-strait ferries. Spain will always need to keep Morocco friendly, and the relationship had been deteriorating for years already, so I guess this is a chance to turn things around.
BTW,it seems that the EU want the irregularities in Ayuso's brother mask contract investigated. :lol:
The Iberian Socialist Tag-team attack seems to have been successful in the latest EU council meeting, and Spain and Portugal will now be able to further regulate their domestic energy markets on their own on account of their relative isolation from the rest of the EU energy market.
QuoteThe President of the Spanish Government, Pedro Sánchez, said this Friday following the agreement of the European Council that it allows the so-called "Iberian exception" in the electricity market that the objectives envisaged by Spain have been met.
Sánchez appreciated this agreement at the press conference he gave at the end of the European summit in Brussels with Portuguese Prime Minister António Costa, to symbolize the unity of judgment of the two countries in their demands to the EU to seek solutions to lower the price of electricity. The one put forward by both, and which has been accepted despite the initial reluctance of partners such as Germany and the Netherlands, aspired that the two countries of the Iberian Peninsula can adopt specific measures due to their status as an "energy island" with the conviction that they do not harm the rest of the Member States.
The Chief Executive highlighted the importance of an agreement that is very beneficial for Spain and Portugal and that he stressed that it will provide more tools to deal with energy prices. After assuring that the two countries have led from the beginning the debate that is allowing concrete measures to be proposed, he stressed that what has been achieved in this Council is "an objective achieved".
Sánchez thanked the European Commission for making progress in this debate and stressed that "starting today" Spain and Portugal will be able to implement "exceptional and time-bound measures" to reduce electricity prices to consumers, industry and companies. The measures will be submitted next week by the two countries to the European Commission, which has already committed itself to urgently confirming that they comply with European law and, to that end, will take into account the special conditions of Spain and Portugal, such as their low level of electricity interconnection with Europe.
Guardian article on the new PP leader:
QuoteSpain's conservative People's party to 'reboot' with new leader
Alberto Núñez Feijóo to take over after years of turmoil that have left PP in danger of being eclipsed by far-right Vox
Spain's conservative People's party (PP) will gather in Seville on Friday and Saturday to install a new leader and attempt a "reboot" after almost four years of infighting, strategic errors and ideological flip-flopping that have left it in danger of being eclipsed by its rivals in the far-right Vox party.
Pablo Casado, who has led Spain's biggest rightwing party since July 2018, has been forced to stand down amid terminal discontent at the highest levels of the PP. That dissatisfaction came to a head in mid-February when Casado publicly announced that the party was investigating Isabel Díaz Ayuso, the PP president of the Madrid region – an outspoken politician often touted as his rival – for alleged corruption.
The confrontation, which followed a disappointing result for the party in February's regional election in Castilla y León, proved a miscalculation too far for Casado.
This weekend, Alberto Núñez Feijóo, who won four consecutive terms as president of the north-western Spanish region of Galicia, will be voted in as Casado's successor.
The party hopes that Feijóo, who is habitually described as a moderate, will steer the PP back to the political centre-ground while still winning back the voters who have deserted the party in favour of Vox. The far-right party, which was founded nine years ago by former PP members, is now the third biggest grouping in parliament and is nipping at its parent party's heels in the polls.
"The party has been through a very difficult time and we're going into the conference not to re-establish the party but to start over again," said a PP source. "This conference is about switching off and resetting just as you would when your computer stops working."
They said the time had come "to heal wounds, end rifts and to come together for a greater aim, which is to give Spain a good government". To do so, the party would set about highlighting its "centrist, reformist" history.
"A big party has to try to pick up votes to its right and to its left; to be a catch-all party," the source added. "We need to have a plurality of voices within the PP and we need those voices to talk to each other. The key – and this is what makes us a centrist party – is dialogue."
Casado, who pledged to "win back the hearts of all Spaniards" when he was elected, has had a complicated relationship with Vox. The outgoing leader dragged the PP further to the right to stop voters defecting to Vox, enlisted its support to prop up three PP-led regional administrations and recently gave the go-ahead for a PP-Vox coalition to govern Castilla y León.
But he has also occasionally rounded on his sometime allies. In October 2020, he accused Vox of practising a politics based on "fear, anger, resentment and revenge" and of peddling a "demagoguery that offers easy – and usually fake – solutions to complex problems".
Such ideological lane-changing confused PP voters and many within the party – as did the failed showdown with Ayuso. The PP's internal squabbling has left the party unable to capitalise on discontent with Spain's Socialist-led coalition government as the country suffers the highest rate of inflation since 1985, soaring energy prices and protests by farmers and hauliers.
The aim now is to jettison the mistakes of the Casado era and start again in Seville.
Although the PP source pointed out that parties across the European right were struggling to deal with the threat of a resurgent far right – "with varying degrees of success" – they said their own party needed to sound less like Vox and more like itself.
The PP is keen to emphasise Feijóo's track record as an experienced statesman who represents "the Spain of the constitution of 1978", which enabled the country's transition to democracy after General Franco's death.
The same has not always been true of Feijóo's predecessor. Despite a farewell speech to congress that lauded "national unity" and the importance of "respecting one's adversaries", Casado has previously stood in the chamber and described the Socialist prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, as a "traitor, squatter, villain, catastrophe, hostage and compulsive liar".
His commitment to national unity has also been called into question by the time he inadvertently attended a mass at which prayers were said for Franco's soul on the 46th anniversary of the dictator's death, and by his contention that the Spanish civil war was "a confrontation between those who wanted a democracy without law and those who wanted law without democracy".
Pablo Simón, a political scientist at Madrid's Carlos III University, said he expected the PP's change of leadership would be rewarded with "a mini-honeymoon" in the polls as the party prepared for this year's key regional election in Andalucía, adding: "If the PP does well, that will give Feijóo a boost and help them with the Vox situation."
Simón said one of Feijóo's biggest challenges would be balancing internal party pressures with the threat posed by its far-right rivals. "Feijóo's obviously a liberal conservative who will talk about all the usual things – lowering taxes, moderation etc," he said. "But for me, the important thing will be which route he takes. Is he going to go: 'Look, I'm going to do what the PP has always done and I'm going to start off by basing my agenda on economic issues'? Or is he going to get into the whole cultural war thing with Vox? I think the first option is more likely than the second."
I have the "pleasure" of knowing him pretty well, since he has ruled in my region for the last 13 years. It was taken for granted that he'd jump at national politics sooner or later, but it has finally taken him a bit longer than expected. Let's see how he does, I'm not really optimistic about his prospects, I think he'll find national politics a very different beast than regional ones. He's at the very least much cannier and strong willed than Casado, so I doubt he'll bend over to outside forces as much as him. It remains to be seen how he'll handle relations with Vox, since they're non existant over here, but essential for PP's prospects at the national level now that Ciudadanos are basically a relic.
Heavy rumours around here about Juan Carlos having secretly returned from Abu Dhabi and "discreetly" staying in my region at the moment. :ph34r:
Btw, Cel, what is being said over there about the phone snooping?
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:28:40 AMHeavy rumours around here about Juan Carlos having secretly returned from Abu Dhabi and "discreetly" staying in my region at the moment. :ph34r:
Can't he go to the Munich residence of the King of Thailand? :P
Quote from: Syt on April 19, 2022, 08:35:40 AMQuote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:28:40 AMHeavy rumours around here about Juan Carlos having secretly returned from Abu Dhabi and "discreetly" staying in my region at the moment. :ph34r:
Can't he go to the Munich residence of the King of Thailand? :P
Depends, what's the level of legal protection that he can get over there? :P
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:37:22 AMQuote from: Syt on April 19, 2022, 08:35:40 AMQuote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:28:40 AMHeavy rumours around here about Juan Carlos having secretly returned from Abu Dhabi and "discreetly" staying in my region at the moment. :ph34r:
Can't he go to the Munich residence of the King of Thailand? :P
Depends, what's the level of legal protection that he can get over there? :P
No exile yet to Estoril as in good old times? :P
Galicia is one step closer to Portugal. :D
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on April 19, 2022, 08:38:22 AMQuote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:37:22 AMQuote from: Syt on April 19, 2022, 08:35:40 AMQuote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:28:40 AMHeavy rumours around here about Juan Carlos having secretly returned from Abu Dhabi and "discreetly" staying in my region at the moment. :ph34r:
Can't he go to the Munich residence of the King of Thailand? :P
Depends, what's the level of legal protection that he can get over there? :P
No exile yet to Estoril as in good old times? :P
Galicia is one step closer to Portugal. :D
Offer him legal immunity and he'll be there in no time. :P
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 10:14:05 AMQuote from: Duque de Bragança on April 19, 2022, 08:38:22 AMQuote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:37:22 AMQuote from: Syt on April 19, 2022, 08:35:40 AMQuote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:28:40 AMHeavy rumours around here about Juan Carlos having secretly returned from Abu Dhabi and "discreetly" staying in my region at the moment. :ph34r:
Can't he go to the Munich residence of the King of Thailand? :P
Depends, what's the level of legal protection that he can get over there? :P
No exile yet to Estoril as in good old times? :P
Galicia is one step closer to Portugal. :D
Offer him legal immunity and he'll be there in no time. :P
Gold visas are over, I'm afraid.
Maybe he could apply for refugee status? :hmm:
Legal immunity? Unless he joins the Portuguese governement... :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on April 19, 2022, 08:32:43 AMBtw, Cel, what is being said over there about the phone snooping?
They are fuming (and tbf, rightly so if the allegations are true), but I have to say I'm not following Catalan press that much. I have enough with agonizing over Ukraine at the moment.
https://twitter.com/OCCRP/status/1523409485364039682 (https://twitter.com/OCCRP/status/1523409485364039682)
Apparently Russia offered 10k troops to the Catalonian independence movement in '17...
Quote from: Threviel on May 13, 2022, 02:32:55 AMhttps://twitter.com/OCCRP/status/1523409485364039682 (https://twitter.com/OCCRP/status/1523409485364039682)
Apparently Russia offered 10k troops to the Catalonian independence movement in '17...
This has been known for a while, tbf, but it has gained traction after this journalist group published their findings.
The offers from the alleged Russian agent were so fantastical (also €500b in funding) that my personal opinion is that Puigdemont et al were being had.
Yeah, both the offer of troops and the amount of money being talked about were coompletely fanciful.
Some of the fringe elements of Catalan separatism are prone to these flights of geopolitical fancy. There was also a proposal to sell the harbor of Tarragona to China to get their help in exchange for a Mediterranean port.
But yeah, the whole affair feels it was just a few steps away from "I need your credit card number before I can transfer you the Nigerian inheritance troops"
Quote from: celedhring on May 13, 2022, 03:40:31 AMSome of the fringe elements of Catalan separatism are prone to these flights of geopolitical fancy. There was also a proposal to sell the harbor of Tarragona to China to get their help in exchange for a Mediterranean port.
Oh yeah, the whole "let's whore ourselves out to China to get our freedom", argument. So brilliant, much coherent.
QuoteBut yeah, the whole affair feels it was just a few steps away from "I need your credit card number before I can transfer you the Nigerian inheritance troops"
That was bound to happen once cryptocurrencies entered the conversation. :lol: :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on May 13, 2022, 03:40:31 AMSome of the fringe elements of Catalan separatism are prone to these flights of geopolitical fancy. There was also a proposal to sell the harbor of Tarragona to China to get their help in exchange for a Mediterranean port.
But yeah, the whole affair feels it was just a few steps away from "I need your credit card number before I can transfer you the Nigerian inheritance troops"
I'd expect the scam was along the lines of of promising the world to encourage you to take radical destabilizing action that we can leverage in various ways.
In other news, after being "absolved" of several counts of financial crime (essentially, he got off because of royal immunity), Ex-king Juan Carlos wants to go back to Spain and take residence at the royal palace of La Zarzuela. His son and current king allegedly wants nothing of the sort (it would further damage the beleaguered prestige of the Crown).
I feel like in the XIXth century this would have ended in a civil war :P
Guess who's back
Back again
Shady's back
Tell a friend
https://www.politico.eu/article/return-king-juan-carlos-problematic-spain-homecoming/
QuoteMADRID — This weekend, things could get awkward in Spain.
The former king, Juan Carlos I, who abdicated in 2014, returned home on Thursday evening after nearly two years in self-exile in Abu Dhabi, having fled the country under a cloud of scandal.
The shelving earlier this year of investigations into his finances has cleared the way for his visit. But Juan Carlos' return to Spain, to attend a sailing regatta in the north-western town of Sanxenxo, remains controversial, highlighting how the personal stock of the former king has plummeted, tainting his own legacy and hampering the reign of his son, King Felipe VI.
"This is someone who did a very good job, politically, and then at the end of his reign made a series of terrible personal and professional mistakes," said Ana Romero, an author who has written several books about the Spanish monarchy. "[In Spain] he is not having to pay a legal price for what he has done, but there are things that he has to pay for morally."
The return of Juan Carlos, 84, has been rumored since March, when the supreme court closed three probes into his finances.
One was into a $100 million payment he received in 2008 from the Saudi royal family. The investigation decided there was no evidence that the money had been a bribe linked to the awarding of a fast-train construction contract and found that regal immunity protected him from facing tax fraud charges. A second probe found he had not benefitted in recent years from an offshore fund in Jersey. The third case, related to more than €500,000 he received from a Mexican tycoon, was closed because Juan Carlos had paid €5 million to the Spanish tax authority to clear arrears.
Juan Carlos took the throne in 1975, on the death of his mentor, dictator Francisco Franco, helping usher in parliamentary democracy. His reputation was cemented in 1981 when he was seen to have acted decisively in thwarting an attempted coup d'état.
A respectful media kept its distance and his popularity remained robust for the next few decades. But revelations in 2012 that he had been on an elephant-hunting holiday in Botswana with his lover, Corinna zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, as Spain was in the depths of the eurozone crisis, were tremendously damaging.
Juan Carlos abdicated two years later, but the scandals continued, culminating in his departure to Abu Dhabi in August 2020, a move instigated by his son, King Felipe VI.
"The decision by Felipe VI to send his father abroad was an attempt to put up a barrier between the decline of his father's image and the crown as an institution," said Pablo Simón, a political scientist at Madrid's Carlos III University.
"But this whole plan has been a bit of a fiasco," he added. "It looked like [Juan Carlos] was fleeing the justice system."
Felipe, 54, is seen as a more austere figure and he has taken steps to make the royal family's accounts more transparent. He has also distanced himself from his father, avoiding meeting with him last Sunday during an official visit to the United Arab Emirates. On Monday, however, they are due to meet in Madrid before Juan Carlos flies back to his residence in Abu Dhabi.
Felipe has not been able to prevent Juan Carlos' personal fall from grace from eroding the crown's image, particularly among younger voters who have no memory of the former king's achievements. A 2021 poll found that 31 percent of those asked were in favor of the monarchy and 39 percent in favor of a republic.
This has placed the monarchy, unwittingly, in the political arena, making it yet another cause of division between left and right.
The Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE) of the prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, has tended to put its historic republicanism to one side during the democratic era, seeing the monarchy as providing stability. But while the party continues to support the institution, it no longer defends the former head of state. Sánchez said that Juan Carlos "has to clarify all the information that we've been hearing about ...which paints a picture of a certain kind of behavior."
The junior partner in the coalition government, the far-left Unidas Podemos (UP), is more strident. Party spokesman Pablo Echenique said that the ex-king's planned return shows that "he can commit crimes without facing penal consequences, that he can return to Spain and laugh at the Spanish people."
By contrast, the conservative Popular Party (PP) has supported his decision to visit and Iván Espinosa, of the far-right Vox, said the former monarch "has nothing to hide, despite the continuous attempts by the left to single him out and falsely accuse him."
As part of efforts to push back against the narrative of a lavish royal who had skirted the rules, the pro-monarchy Concordia Real Española association has published a report claiming he generated €62 billion for the Spanish economy during his reign.
Despite the shelving of the investigations into his finances, the legal coast is still not clear for Juan Carlos. A British court recently ruled that he cannot claim regal immunity there to avoid a possible trial brought by zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, who accuses him of waging a campaign of harassment against her after their relationship ended.
But it appears unlikely that the monarchy is in jeopardy — at least in the short term. Major constitutional change would require the kind of political consensus that is rarely seen in Spain.
"The more polarized and fragmented Spanish politics is, the more difficult it will be to gather the parliamentary support to carry out such a reform," said Simón.
Viva la republica!
It is weird how somebody that has been so politically savvy as him throughout his carrer has suddenly stopped giving no fucks about his legacy or the crown. I guess it's age? He's not going to be around for much longer, so I guess he just wants to have his fun.
Quote from: celedhring on May 23, 2022, 06:20:14 AMIt is weird how somebody that has been so politically savvy as him throughout his carrer has suddenly stopped giving no fucks about his legacy or the crown. I guess it's age? He's not going to be around for much longer, so I guess he just wants to have his fun.
The case could be made that he was never as politically savvy as previously believed. Most of what came out makes him look pretty dim, actually.
Quotethe pro-monarchy Concordia Real Española association has published a report claiming he generated €62 billion for the Spanish economy during his reign.
:lmfao:
Maybe the $62 billion includes all the bribes and so forth?
Quote from: Jacob on May 23, 2022, 11:05:46 AMMaybe the $62 billion includes all the bribes and so forth?
The "bribes and kickbacks" industry is surely generous, then. :lol:
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2022, 05:38:42 AMViva la republica!
Only if they bring back the purple flag
Quote from: The Larch on May 13, 2022, 03:34:50 AMYeah, both the offer of troops and the amount of money being talked about were coompletely fanciful.
Seeing how well 200 000 troops perform in Ukraine, I guess these 10k Russians could have been handled by the local police force without sweat :P
Twitter account compiling a collection of bizarre situations in Spanish politics over the years: https://twitter.com/Spol_Moments (https://twitter.com/Spol_Moments)
https://globeecho.com/news/europe/france/manuel-valls-party-fined-more-than-275000-euros-for-illicit-financing-of-barcelonas-municipal-campaign/ (https://globeecho.com/news/europe/france/manuel-valls-party-fined-more-than-275000-euros-for-illicit-financing-of-barcelonas-municipal-campaign/)
:lol:
Manuel Valls, is, among other things, a former French prime minister. :P
Yeah, he got some rich conservative Madrid & Barcelona dudes to pay for essentially all of his campaign, which is extremely illegal over here. Our financing and campaign laws are very stringent (also broken semi-regularly, although Valls is the biggest fine in many years). Anyway, at least they manage to keep spending relatively low, can't really fathom how insufferable our election campaigns would be with US-levels of campaign financing.
EDIT: Just checked, out of curiosity, and the candidates for the GA Senate race in 2022 spent three times what our parties spent for our last national election :D
Kings nephew got in a knife fight outside a club? Couldn't find his sword? :P
Quote from: HVC on December 28, 2022, 01:45:23 PMKings nephew got in a knife fight outside a club? Couldn't find his sword? :P
If it weren't for the salic law he would be the heir apparent. If we've got to have a king at least have it be a truly decadent one :(
He's a well known hooligan and we probably only know a fraction of his "heroics" because of who he is.
Not the Spanish royals themselves but I always love that story about two rival claimants to the Italian throne getting into a fistfight at a Spanish royal wedding :lol:
It might even have been the King's wedding :hmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 28, 2022, 02:00:46 PMNot the Spanish royals themselves but I always love that story about two rival claimants to the Italian throne getting into a fistfight at a Spanish royal wedding :lol:
It might even have been the King's wedding :hmm:
If only all succession disputes in history could have been settled by a fistfight.
Quote from: HVC on December 28, 2022, 01:45:23 PMKings nephew got in a knife fight outside a club? Couldn't find his sword? :P
I'd assume that his bodyguards would take care of any scuffle before a knife would get anywhere near his royal person. :P
I assume he has some kind of security, bt maybe he doesn't... :unsure:
Quote from: celedhring on December 28, 2022, 01:55:29 PMQuote from: HVC on December 28, 2022, 01:45:23 PMKings nephew got in a knife fight outside a club? Couldn't find his sword? :P
If it weren't for the salic law he would be the heir apparent. If we've got to have a king at least have it be a truly decadent one :(
And he's a spitting image of Fernando VII, so it'd truly be a family tradition. :P
(https://www.inoreader.com/camo/sRBhlGxPe3IaZ04C8auB-5UA_vV1XddnjJHrU35_0yjM,b64/aHR0cHM6Ly9ibG9ncy5wdWJsaWNvLmVzL3N0cmFtYm90aWMvZmlsZXMvMjAxOS8xMC9mcm9pbGFuby5qcGVn)
QuoteHe's a well known hooligan and we probably only know a fraction of his "heroics" because of who he is.
If watching his graduation pictures doesn't turn even the most fervent monarchist into a Robespierre, nothing will.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 28, 2022, 02:00:46 PMNot the Spanish royals themselves but I always love that story about two rival claimants to the Italian throne getting into a fistfight at a Spanish royal wedding :lol:
It might even have been the King's wedding :hmm:
It was indeed during the current King's wedding. :lol:
QuoteRight royal punch-up at Spanish prince's wedding
There's always one at every wedding - the embarrassing guest who causes a scene.
Even, it appears, at the royal marriage of the decade.
According to Italian media reports, last weekend's wedding of Prince Felipe and Princess Letizia of Spain ended in a punch-up which left an Italian aristocrat nursing bruised lips.
Leaving a dinner given by King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia on the evening of their son's nuptials, the heir to the Italian throne, Prince Vittorio Emanuele, was said to have hit his cousin and rival, Duke Amedeo, on the steps of the Spanish royal residence.
One report said the Duke was twice punched in the mouth and would have fallen to the ground had he not been caught by deposed Queen Anne-Marie of Greece.
The daily, La Repubblica, said Duke Amedeo was then helped inside the Zarzuela palace, where an unidentified Arab potentate applied an ice pack to his bruised lips.
On learning of the affray, King Juan Carlos was said to have stormed "Nunca más" (Never again) - apparently in reference to the Italian's chances of a further invitation.
Duke Amedeo did not deny the attack. The newspaper La Stampa quoted him as saying it was "an unpleasant business that does not deserve further comment". The incident was the latest scandal in the life of Prince Vittorio Emanuele, who returned to Italy last year after 57 years in exile.
In 1991, he was acquitted of manslaughter by a French court for an incident 13 years earlier in which he fired a rifle from his yacht off Corsica, fatally wounding a German tourist.
The prince renounced all claims to the throne as part of the deal that allowed him back into Italy - a move that dismayed the country's dwindling band of monarchists and prompted many to switch their allegiance to Duke Amedeo.
There was also a German prince of somewhere that got so drunk during the reception that he had to be discreetly shown out of the palace, or something.
Quote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 12:30:27 PMI'd assume that his bodyguards would take care of any scuffle before a knife would get anywhere near his royal person. :P
I assume he has some kind of security, bt maybe he doesn't... :unsure:
I don't know if he would. He seems fairly remote.
Here the direct royal family have 24/7 protection, the "working" royals like Princess Anne and Prince Edward get security at official events but not otherwise. The rest like Zara Tindall, Eugenie and Beatrice (or, more controversially, Harry and Meghan) don't have any security. None of Charles' nephews or nieces have security.
Obviously if they're attending a big royal event like a wedding or funeral, or living in a grace and favour apartment in one of the palaces, security is pretty high :lol:
Froilán isn't part of the royal family (officially speaking), so the state doesn't provide security for him. He might still get private bodyguards.
Knowing how the Spanish royal family operates it wouldn't surprise me if he still gets official security under the table.
BTW, we didn't even get to comment on the nickname of Froilán's female companion during that night. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PMBTW, we didn't even get to comment on the nickname of Froilán's female companion during that night. :lol:
Yeah, a Z-level socialite called "La pechotes" (or "Big boobs").
Again, he is the king Spain needed :(
Quote from: celedhring on December 30, 2022, 01:30:32 PMQuote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PMBTW, we didn't even get to comment on the nickname of Froilán's female companion during that night. :lol:
Yeah, a Z-level socialite called "La pechotes" (or "Big boobs").
Again, he is the king Spain needed :(
His grandfather would be proud to see how he follows with the family tradition. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:51:02 PMQuote from: celedhring on December 30, 2022, 01:30:32 PMQuote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PMBTW, we didn't even get to comment on the nickname of Froilán's female companion during that night. :lol:
Yeah, a Z-level socialite called "La pechotes" (or "Big boobs").
Again, he is the king Spain needed :(
His grandfather would be proud to see how he follows with the family tradition. :lol:
An update on this, apparently the rebellious princeling Froilán has been sent by her mother to Abu Dhabi to live with his grandfather the former king. It's funny how Abu Dhabi is turning into the place where we send our unwanted royals. :hmm:
Quote from: The Larch on January 16, 2023, 08:13:17 AMQuote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:51:02 PMQuote from: celedhring on December 30, 2022, 01:30:32 PMQuote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PMBTW, we didn't even get to comment on the nickname of Froilán's female companion during that night. :lol:
Yeah, a Z-level socialite called "La pechotes" (or "Big boobs").
Again, he is the king Spain needed :(
His grandfather would be proud to see how he follows with the family tradition. :lol:
An update on this, apparently the rebellious princeling Froilán has been sent by her mother to Abu Dhabi to live with his grandfather the former king. It's funny how Abu Dhabi is turning into the place where we send our unwanted royals. :hmm:
The prelude to claiming the throne and becoming the new Carlist pretender? :ph34r:
They could each get their own little palm island kingdom. Would make for a nice cyberpunk setup.
Quote from: celedhring on January 16, 2023, 08:27:21 AMQuote from: The Larch on January 16, 2023, 08:13:17 AMQuote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:51:02 PMQuote from: celedhring on December 30, 2022, 01:30:32 PMQuote from: The Larch on December 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PMBTW, we didn't even get to comment on the nickname of Froilán's female companion during that night. :lol:
Yeah, a Z-level socialite called "La pechotes" (or "Big boobs").
Again, he is the king Spain needed :(
His grandfather would be proud to see how he follows with the family tradition. :lol:
An update on this, apparently the rebellious princeling Froilán has been sent by her mother to Abu Dhabi to live with his grandfather the former king. It's funny how Abu Dhabi is turning into the place where we send our unwanted royals. :hmm:
The prelude to claiming the throne and becoming the new Carlist pretender? :ph34r:
Over here we had a joke movement wanting to proclaim Froilán (as Froilán the IIIrd) as the true king of Galicia. :lol:
(https://s1.eestatic.com/2017/09/22/espana/1-o-_referendum_1_de_octubre-cataluna-galicia_248738845_47688399_1706x1280.jpg)
Don't know if they're still active, though.
And now for some proper news. As mentioned in other places in the forum, it's peculiar how European far-righters tend to just ape American talking points rather than developing their own. In the latest bout of this, Vox's VP of the Castilla y León regional government (their top elected official, as this is the only region where they're in a coalition government with the PP) has just announced a new anti-abortion protocol for the region (reportedly copied from one introduced in Hungary by Orban):
QuoteSpain's far-right introduce anti-abortion measures in Castilla y León
A regional government's move to restrict abortion rights in a large part of central Spain reignited debate on Friday on the issue, and in the run-up to this year's local elections.
Under the new measures adopted by the right-wing People's Party (PP) and far-right Vox coalition governing the Castilla y León region, women seeking an abortion there must be offered optional access to unsolicited resources by doctors before starting the procedure.
These include listening to the fetus's heartbeat, having a 4D ultrasound scan, and getting psychological advice, in a bid to reduce the number of abortions. Patients are free to turn down any of these suggestions.
The 'fetal heartbeat protocol', will be offered to women who are between six and nine weeks pregnant, the regional government's far-right vice president, Juan García-Gallardo of the Vox party explained, with the intention of allowing the parents to emotionally bond with their baby.
García-Gallardo stressed, however, that women would 'not be forced to listen to their baby's heartbeat if they don't want to'. The new measures were presented on Thursday by García-Gallardo.
Spain's regional governments have jurisdiction over public health policy at a regional level. The country faces local and regional elections in May-June.
'We are going to offer every parent who wants to see it a real-time video to see the head, the hands, the feet, the fingers. In short, all the parts of the body of the child that is being gestated,' García-Gallardo said.
The announcement drew strong criticism across Spain, from the central coalition government formed by the PSOE socialists and left-wing Podemos group, and even from the right-wing head of the Madrid region.
García-Gallardo insisted on Friday that the measures would immediately enter into force in Castilla y León, home to around 2.5 million of Spain's 47 million inhabitants.
According to data from 2021, the number of voluntary abortions grew by 7.2% in Castilla y León compared to the previous year, with 2,597, below the 2,674 recorded in 2019, before the Covid pandemic. Only 217 were made in hospitals, with 59 in public centres or 2.2%.
In response to García-Gallardo, Spanish Health Minister Carolina Darias said that no compromises would be allowed in the field of abortion rights.
Most of the many women ministers in the central government rushed to condemn what they described as an attack on women's rights — a main political banner for Spain's left-leaning governing coalition.
Isabel Díaz Ayuso, the PP head of the Madrid region, unexpectedly announced on Friday a new helpline for pregnant women. 'Women should be able to freely choose the information they wish to get,' she said.
In Spain, abortion is allowed up until the 14th week of pregnancy, and the country has recently made several moves to strengthen abortion rights nationwide.
Last year, the left-wing controlled parliament passed a law to ban the intimidation of women entering abortion clinics, where anti-abortion groups often used to demonstrate in a bid to make patients change their minds. The country also dumped the requirement for 16 and 17-year-olds to obtain parental consent before terminating a pregnancy.
Since this was announced last week, the regional government (headed by the PP) has been wavering back and forth on the topic, claiming that it's not mandatory, that it's just a recommendation for the doctors, and so on, and finally these measures were not officially published today, when they were intended to come into force. It's also peculiar how Vox announced this "coming from the top", as it was the region's VP that introduced them in a press conference, when the portfolio that'd have to cover them is not held by them but by the PP. It also mobilized the national government, as after the announcement the Health ministry had to send an official warning to the regional government on the topic.
This could not come in a worse moment for the PP, as this year we're going to have tons of elections in Spain (locals and regionals in spring, nationals at the end of the year), and this is a reminder that Vox, their #1 ally for any possible coalition government, are a bunch of nuts and extremists, with the galvanizing results that this tends to have on left wing voters. In a way it could be said that we're lucky that our far righters are such a bunch of idiots.
Why are Castille and Leon one place anyway?
Quote from: Josquius on January 16, 2023, 09:31:11 AMWhy are Castille and Leon one place anyway?
Merger in the early 80s of the regions of León and Old Castille.
Edit: Longer version, because I feel like it.
After the Napoleonic Wars, in 1833, Spain reorganized its provinces in a way that still lasts to this day. It also assigned provinces to different regions, but this was only for classification purposes, without giving the regions any devolved powers.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Espa%C3%B1a_-_Divisi%C3%B3n_provincial_y_regional_de_1833.svg/800px-Espa%C3%B1a_-_Divisi%C3%B3n_provincial_y_regional_de_1833.svg.png)
In this map, the current Castilla y León region was split between the Region of León (the three purple provinces to the West) and the Region of Old Castilla (the 8 green provinces to its east).
All over the XIXth century there were several proposals to reorganize the regions of Spain, without changing the underlying province system, but none of them came to anything. Several of these proposals involved reorganizing this region, including the maximalist "11 provinces" version that would come from joining León and Old Castilla.
During the 2nd Republic, the possibility for decentralization of government through the autonomy system for the regions was introduced, and before the Civil War started three regions got their autonomy, Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia.
With very minor changes, this system lasted until 1983, after the approval of the current Spanish constitution, which allowed for the reintroduction of regional autonomy that Franco had abolished. At this point, the old regions of León and Old Castille merged into a single one, forming the current region of Castilla y León, which features 9 provinces, as two of the provinces of Old Castilla decided to leave and become single-province regions (Cantabria and La Rioja).
Thanks for the big write up.
What I don't get more specifically though is why these two historically seperate areas ended up merged together with no desire to be seperate regions whilst you do have those small one province regions.
Leon is far enough in the past that there is zero nostalgia for it?
Quote from: Josquius on January 16, 2023, 06:05:32 PMThanks for the big write up.
What I don't get more specifically though is why these two historically seperate areas ended up merged together with no desire to be seperate regions whilst you do have those small one province regions.
Leon is far enough in the past that there is zero nostalgia for it?
I'm not particularly well-versed on the regionalist shenanigans of that neck in the woods, but Cantabria and La Rioja have always seemed like pointless OPM's to me.
AFAIK there's some token separatist parties in León (as in, want to separate León from Castilla), so remembrance for the old kingdom is not much of a thing.
It's funny how nationalism works, btw, because on the instutitional level the histories of León and Catalonia run very in parallel, yet one tried to secede a few years ago and the other one, well, not. I suppose the reason is a mix of language and wealth (there is a Leonese language but it is on the verge of extinction).
Quote from: celedhring on January 17, 2023, 02:55:24 AMIt's funny how nationalism works, btw, because on the instutitional level the histories of León and Catalonia run very in parallel, yet one tried to secede a few years ago and the other one, well, not. I suppose the reason is a mix of language and wealth (there is a Leonese language but it is on the verge of extinction).
That "Leonese language" might be on the verge of extinction, in Léon that is (Zamora and specially Salamanca more so), but is a real language, unlike Valencian ( a dialect of a language you certainly know) :P. A language spoken in Asturias and in N.E Portugal, known there as Mirandês, from the local dialect name and localisation (Miranda do Douro). Some old Spanish books even called it "Leonés Braganzano" (sic) :D
Quote from: Josquius on January 16, 2023, 06:05:32 PMWhat I don't get more specifically though is why these two historically seperate areas ended up merged together with no desire to be seperate regions whilst you do have those small one province regions.
As I said, during the XIXth century there were several proposals to reorganize the regions of Spain, and all of them involved shuffling around those particular regions, so it's not as if there was a huge underlying support for keeping them as they were, at least at that point.
For instance, this was proposed in 1847:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Mapa_de_Espa%C3%B1a_-_Decreto_de_Escosura_de_1847.svg/800px-Mapa_de_Espa%C3%B1a_-_Decreto_de_Escosura_de_1847.svg.png)
This was proposed in 1873:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Mapa_de_Espa%C3%B1a_-_Constituci%C3%B3n_de_1873.svg/800px-Mapa_de_Espa%C3%B1a_-_Constituci%C3%B3n_de_1873.svg.png)
It features the maximalist "11 province" version of Old Castille that I mentioned earlier.
And this was proposed in 1884:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Mapa_de_Espa%C3%B1a_-_Proyecto_de_reforma_de_Moret_de_1884.svg/800px-Mapa_de_Espa%C3%B1a_-_Proyecto_de_reforma_de_Moret_de_1884.svg.png)
After that, in the XXth century everything stayed as it was until the post-Franco constitution, only difference was the autonomist movement during the 2nd Republic, but it was about self-governance of the regions, rather than redrawing the map. Remember that until then the regions were mostly cosmetic, they served no particular purpose, as the state was much more centralized back then and only the provinces had some limited devolved powers.
How the 1983 regional map was drawn is not something I know a lot about, why León and Old Castille merged and why Cantabria and Rioja separated and went their own way. I'd have to ask my parents about it. Traditionally it is regional politicians of that time being blamed for wanting to have their own little fiefdom for those single province regions, AFAIK, but I don't know much about it. It has to be remembered that at that time Spain was in a huge state of flux following the dictatorship and the return to democracy. Already the process for granting self government to the regions was fraught with controversy. Originally it was only meant for the three regions that had self-government during the Republic to get it back, but then other regions requested it and it ended up being granted to all regions of the country, even to the ones where there was no appetite for self-government at all.
QuoteLeon is far enough in the past that there is zero nostalgia for it?
There is some remaining nostalgia for it, there's always been a small movement calling for the 3 provinces that belonged to the Region of León (León itself, Zamora and Salamanca) to separate from Castilla y León and become its own autonomous region withing Spain, but this has only a modicum of presence in the province of León, the other two provinces are not up for that at all. It kind of makes sense since León is actually quite different from the rest of the region, and more similar to Asturias or parts of Galicia than to other places in Castilla. In some of those XIXth century proposals they had Asturias and León joining, and I sort of think it would have been right.
It's taken "only" 12 years, but the Spanish Constitutional Court (which was renovated recently and now has a 7-4 progressive majority) has deemed the abortion law of 2010 constitutional. Abortion was already constitutional, but the 2010 law made it freely available until week 14, which was appealed by PP. It's now passed 7-4, and the conservative justices only objected minor aspects of the law. Nowadays even the current PP leader believes the law is "generally correct" and only has minor objections. Heck, PP weren't even able to strike down the law when they held the government in the 2010s, due to internal division.
So at least this particular bit of the culture war has ended.
Quote from: celedhring on February 09, 2023, 09:16:02 AMIt's taken "only" 12 years, but the Spanish Constitutional Court (which was renovated recently and now has a 7-4 progressive majority) has deemed the abortion law of 2010 constitutional. Abortion was already constitutional, but the 2010 law made it freely available until week 14, which was appealed by PP. It's now passed 7-4, and the conservative justices only objected minor aspects of the law. Nowadays even the current PP leader believes the law is "generally correct" and only has minor objections. Heck, PP weren't even able to strike down the law when they held the government in the 2010s, due to internal division.
So at least this particular bit of the culture war has ended.
And it was not even a very active war anyway, only the more recalcitrant sectors of PP (with the addition of VOX nowadays) were truly against the law, "mainstream" PP never had its heart in fighting the law. They just resorted to their usual lawfare to be able to claim that they're doing something without actually doing anything, and didn't actually do anything for real when they were in power. Same as with the same sex marriage law. They'll half-heartedly support the big demonstrations by the more hardcore religious movements and say a couple of things in their favour, and their more hardcore members will join the frontline (not the actual leaders, though), but at the end of the day they will not actually do anything significant to bring those laws down.
It's no HS2 shenanigans but at least there are consequences for severe incompetence (corruption somewhere?) at RENFE and ADIF(infrastructure):
QuoteLayoffs at Adif (infrastructure) and Renfe after design debacle: train too big for tunnels
An error in the design of the new fleet for the Spanish metric gauge networks in Asturias and Cantabria will likely delay delivery of the rolling stock by several years. The current train design means that the vehicles will not fit through some of the tunnels on the routes. The Ministry of Transport has commissioned an internal audit, but two managers at Adif and Renfe have already been dismissed.
The first trains were originally planned to be ready around October 2024, the design failure will however delay operations with the new trains in the two regions. Renfe awarded the contract for the trains to Spanish manufacturer CAF in June 2020 for 258 million euros. 21 trains are assigned to the Cantabria metric gauge network and 10 trains to Asturias.
The Spanish Ministry of Transport, Mobility and Urban Agenda clarified the situation in a statement this week. The error in the definition of the train sizing was detected while still in the design phase, so no train had been manufactured yet and no public expenditure has been produced or incurred as a result of this situation. The error means a redesign is necessary, delaying the manufacturing process.
Where did it go wrong?
Although the results of the audit commissioned by the transport ministry are still pending, fingers are already pointing to Renfe as the presumed culprit. According to El Español, Renfe had been handling reports since 2021 warning that there were trains that would not fit in the tunnels, and it did nothing to remedy the situation. The newspaper says it has viewed a report of the State Agency for Railway Safety (AESF) from September last year. More specifically, it had a note issued by the AESF in which such a problem was put "in black and white".
The error in the train design is attributed to misinterpretation on the side of Renfe of the Declaration on the Network, prepared by rail infrastructure manager Adif. This declaration does not publish the gauge of railway lines. Sources in the railway sector familiar with the situation told El Español that "it seems that Renfe interpreted that the standard gauges of the Gauges Railway Instruction are those existing throughout the network, without realising that they are the ones applied in new and refurbishment works."
The paper says that in March 2021, AESF confirmed that the current infrastructure it concerns does not comply with the GEE10 and GED10 gauges defined for new construction or refurbishment actions in the 'Gauges Railway Instruction' on numerous points. Thus, the application of gauges could lead to the manufacture of a train with dimensions considerably smaller than those of the current trains that it will replace.
New design to be completed by this summer
A working group led by the Ministry will be set up to monitor the next stages, in which the governments of Cantabria and Asturias have been invited to participate. According to the Transport Ministry, efforts are being made together with CAF so that the design phase can be completed this summer, speeding up the manufacturing time.
Currently, two persons with a responsibility regarding the situation have now been dismissed. Renfe president Isaías Táboas dismissed the person who was manager of the Material Management area of Renfe Viajeros at the time of the narrow gauge trains project from his responsibilities, the operator said in a statement. Adif has dismissed the head of its Inspection and Track Technology headquarters as a preventive measure, various Spanish media report. Spain's Minister of Transport, Mobility and Urban Agenda, Raquel Sánchez had already said on Saturday that there would be dismissals at the public companies.
General Secretary for Infrastructures, Xavier Flores, stated in the broadcast 24 Horas that "It was the first time that we were faced with buying a train on this line." He assured that according to the strict application of the regulations followed for gauges "could cause the trains to be smaller than necessary" and added that "they already have a solution" and that they are working on it. Renfe has reached an agreement with CAF, Adif and the Railway Safety Agency to unclog the problem. Although no specific timeframe has been announced, it is speculated the error will delay the delivery of the train by two to three years.
https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/02/07/layoffs-at-adif-and-renfe-after-design-debacle-train-too-big-for-tunnels/?gdpr=deny (https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/02/07/layoffs-at-adif-and-renfe-after-design-debacle-train-too-big-for-tunnels/?gdpr=deny)
Just to clarify, it's not true that the trains don't fit the tunnels because they're too big, it's a regulatory issue due to the peculiarities of the narrow gauge railways for which one of the possible solutions was a change of regulations. This was stated wrongly when it was first reported and is now being quoted by all other news sources that followed without being corrected.
So, we're bound for a new motion of no confidence on the government, presented again by VOX with no chance whatsoever of going forward.
I say again because VOX already presented a motion of no confidence on the government back in 2020, because of the management of the Covid pandemic, and failed miserably (everybody but them voted against it).
Now the motion's reasoning is because of the government's reform of sections of the penal code related to some of the charges brought against the Catalan independentists. Nobody but VOX is expected to vote in favour of it, but it has managed to put PP in a bind, either coming up in support of their radical interpretation of the law and thus lunging them more to the right, or not supporting them and possibly jeopardizing their present and potential future alliances. Sánchez must be popping champagne, as this will give him even more ammunition against PP in the run up for local and regional elections in the spring.
The novelty of this motion is that this time VOX has managed to find an independent figure to front it (something that they tried for their 2020 motion but failed to achieve), but the person they've produced is a bit of a head scratcher, as it's 89 y.o. economist Ramón Tamames, a former communist that used to be part of the opposition to Franco and a founding member of IU in the 80s, but who has been drifting rightwards and rightwards since then.
I just want to say that this might be my favorite thread ever on Languish and every time it gets bumped I have fond memories of the 2017 rollercoaster. Thanks for creating it celedhring.
Quote from: chipwich on March 03, 2023, 03:34:34 PMI just want to say that this might be my favorite thread ever on Languish and every time it gets bumped I have fond memories of the 2017 rollercoaster. Thanks for creating it celedhring.
Ah well, happy at least somebody enjoyed that clusterfuck, I guess :D
As expected, the no confidence vote went nowhere and will most probably have reinforced the government.
QuoteSpanish government sees off no-confidence vote by far-right party
Vox motion had been hoping to capitalise on public anger over botched sexual offences legislation
Spain's Socialist-led minority government has comfortably seen off a no-confidence vote tabled by the far-right Vox party, as the country prepares for regional and municipal elections in two months' time and a general election before the end of the year.
Although Vox's motion, which was debated in congress on Tuesday and Wednesday, was never likely to attract support from other parties, Vox had been hoping to capitalise on public anger over the government's botched sexual offences legislation – which has resulted in reduced prison terms for hundreds of convicted felons – and its overhaul of sedition legislation.
However, as had been widely anticipated, the move was defeated by 53 votes to 201, with 91 abstentions. The conservative People's party (PP), which is ahead of the Socialists in the polls and seeking to return to the centre ground under its newish leader, Alberto Núñez Feijóo, chose to abstain rather than be seen as cosying up to Vox.
Vox, which has criticised the sexual offences reforms and accused the government of changing Spain's sedition legislation to placate the pro-independence Catalan party on which it relies for support in congress, defended the decision to table the motion. The party has been hoping for a bump in the polls after recent surveys suggested it was losing the momentum that carried it into the national parliament four years ago.
The party's leader, Santiago Abascal, said he was proud Vox had forced a debate that had showed Spain had "the worst government in its history" and said he was "worried" by the PP's refusal to back the motion. "We've accomplished our mission," Abascal said after Wednesday's vote. "There were more than enough reasons for this vote of no confidence, but political and electoral calculations weren't among them."
The PP, which voted against Vox's last no-confidence motion, in 2020, on the grounds that the far-right party was practising a politics based on "fear, anger, resentment and revenge", was more circumspect in its language this time. It did, however, lament the fact that Vox had handed the Socialist leader, Pedro Sánchez, "a smokescreen for his scandals".
Vox's choice of candidate to replace Sánchez as prime minister had attracted considerable attention. Despite disagreeing with many of the party's views, Ramón Tamames, an 89-year-old economist writer and former communist, accepted the role because of his political and patriotic convictions. He said on Wednesday he was "very satisfied and grateful" to have been able to play his part.
During the previous day's debate, the prime minister told Tamames he was sad to see him "helping to whitewash a party that rejects equality between men and women". Sánchez also seized the opportunity to highlight his government's achievements and to criticise his opponents for their nostalgia.
"This is a motion to stop Spain moving forwards; to make it go backwards," he said. "In the PP's case, that's 10 years. In Vox's case, that's half a century."
Heard on NPR (CBC actually) that six women are suing because a cop infiltrated their antifa group and banged them all.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2023, 03:17:28 AMHeard on NPR (CBC actually) that six women are suing because a cop infiltrated their antifa group and banged them all.
Spy cops has been a big story in the UK for the last ten years or so too - and similar problems. There's an ongoing public inquiry into them and one of the represented groups is 21 women who were seduced by those false personas.
Yeah, besides the honeypot unpleasantness, in Spain undercover cops are only allowed when infiltrating organized crime or terrorist groups - some random Barcelona antifas hardly qualify for either. I suspect that this will be another example of law enforcement really stretching the "terrorism" bit to take advantage of the powers it gives them.
The New 'normal' is just crazy:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/BDD9/production/_129510684_temperature_anomaly_forecast_spain-2x-nc.png)
I'm guessing most of you guys live near the coast, which is why we've not heard about it here? :D
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2023, 03:17:28 AMHeard on NPR (CBC actually) that six women are suing because a cop infiltrated their antifa group and banged them all.
(https://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-1izkebM3cqeF0hcO-uo8bjQ-t500x500.jpg)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2023, 03:17:28 AMHeard on NPR (CBC actually) that six women are suing because a cop infiltrated their antifa group and banged them all.
That must have been one charming cop...or they just regularly bang everybody in the antifa group.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 27, 2023, 05:04:47 AMSpy cops has been a big story in the UK for the last ten years or so too - and similar problems. There's an ongoing public inquiry into them and one of the represented groups is 21 women who were seduced by those false personas.
I'm fairly certain I ran into one of these undercover cops by coincidence here way back in the Pre-Cambrian (early 2000s) when one of these infiltrated British leftie groups were protesting a massive dam being built in East Iceland. They did stuff like chain themselves to bulldozers, etc. They came to my grandfathers highland cottage, a mixed gender group (but mostly female) while me and grandfather were there, stayed with us for dinner and got permission from gramps to put their tents up by the brook. They were all chatty and happy to meet us locals. Then a few years later there was an exposé where one of the men was outed as an undercover copper.
And yeah he apparently had relations with several of the women.
I know I've asked before, but why is Madrid so right wing? It seems like an outlier both in comparison with big cities generally but also with most European capitals.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 28, 2023, 02:30:53 PMI know I've asked before, but why is Madrid so right wing? It seems like an outlier both in comparison with big cities generally but also with most European capitals.
That's not true though? The results in the city itself have been pretty split for a long time. It's the larger region where they get big majorities.
Given our local election laws, Catalan separatists will both get their worst results in many years, yet they'll win Barcelona (they concentrated the vote pretty well). Although their candidate for mayor is super-tame and will lack a convincing majority, so I don't expect much shenanigans.
Quote from: celedhring on May 28, 2023, 03:36:50 PMThat's not true though? The results in the city itself have been pretty split for a long time. It's the larger region where they get big majorities.
I looked at municipality elections (not comunidad) and it seems like since about 1990 they've had one mayor from the left, who got one term. That seems odd?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 28, 2023, 03:50:17 PMQuote from: celedhring on May 28, 2023, 03:36:50 PMThat's not true though? The results in the city itself have been pretty split for a long time. It's the larger region where they get big majorities.
I looked at municipality elections (not comunidad) and it seems like since about 1990 they've had one mayor from the left, who got one term. That seems odd?
Yeah, but the left has won general elections there quite often (usually when they win the overall election). And the right's local wins have usually been slim. They won in 2019, but the right managed to build a majority.
In general though, PSOE has ran some pretty bad candidates historically (which is why the left's only wins have come from outside PSOE), and there's been lots of infighting inside the party.
Should have guessed - bad candidates and loads of infighting, the universal explanations for why the left underperforms :lol: :weep:
The good news is that separatists have lost the election in my town - an independence party had been holding the council for the past 12 years.
Now if they removed the gigantic independence flag that presides the main road into town, I'd be grateful...
Generally, even though they may weirdly win Barcelona, this has been a bad night for them. They are down all over, and they have lost all the other large Catalan capitals (Girona they might still manage to get a coalition going, but it was a historic pro-indepedence bastion, and to see PSOE come first there is quite incredible). The party currently running the Catalan government - ERC - has had a truly awful night.
Overall in Spain we're having a bit of a conservative wave going, but I guess it was to be expected <_<
If centralism a opposed to regional autonomy skews right in Spain it makes sense that the national capital area would skew right.
And the president has called a snap election. We're voting in 2 months.
Photo thread will be posted in due time. :)
Well, in the eleventh hour - like minutes before the vote - all non-indy parties in Barcelona (except the far right) have agreed to vote the socialist candidate, electing him mayor when everybody assumed the pro-indy parties would get elected (in Spain if there's no majority in a local government, the mayorship defaults to the largest minority). Every major pro-Indy politician (except Puigdemont, of course) was present at the Barcelona city hall to celebrate the "recovery of the capital". It was quite the scene.
Something similar happened 4 years ago, when Valls voted the far left non-indy candidate at the eleventh hour, when everybody assumed we'd get a minority pro-indy city council.
Of course not everything is good news. PP has been calmly closing deals with Vox in several regions and towns. As a result a bullfighter with pro-fascist social media posts will now be elected vice-president of the Valencia region, and regional minister of culture ( :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: )
With a general election in a month, and a PP+Vox coalition looking very likely, this is not going to be fun time in Spain.
Quote from: celedhring on June 17, 2023, 12:40:14 PMSomething similar happened 4 years ago, when Valls voted the far left non-indy candidate at the eleventh hour, when everybody assumed we'd get a minority pro-indy city council.
If you like so much Manuel Valls, you can keep it! :frog: :D
https://twitter.com/elnacionalcat/status/1683153284054372352?s=46&t=o9GOIj6BKKcLcHiyQTlAoA
:hmm:
I didn't know there were Spanish politicians that support reunification with Italy. :hmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2023, 11:45:21 AMhttps://twitter.com/elnacionalcat/status/1683153284054372352?s=46&t=o9GOIj6BKKcLcHiyQTlAoA
:hmm:
Why are you reading tweets from El Nacional? :P
This looks a lot closer than I thought.
Quote from: Iormlund on July 23, 2023, 03:28:16 PMThis looks a lot closer than I thought.
At 80% counted is looking like a hung parliament. No way the right wing parties get a majority at this point.
See you again on December for the repeat election!
That's what I wanted when I voted today.
So, mission accomplished, I guess. :lol:
Nice. Good on Sanchez for a gamble that sort of paid off for the PSOE?
Edit: Also the PP crowd chanting for Ayuso is pretty striking.
Soo... Sanchez stays PM? How does this work?
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2023, 05:04:41 PMNice. Good on Sanchez for a gamble that sort of paid off for the PSOE?
Definitely, he looked like dead man walking a couple months ago and now he even has a chance to stay as president. That said, I think it's unlikely he'll be able to stitch a majority. Catalan pro-indy parties, which he needs, have been punished harshly by their voters for their role in propping up the Spanish government during this term - it's their worst result since 2008.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 23, 2023, 05:19:42 PMSoo... Sanchez stays PM? How does this work?
The usual. Parliament will get inaugurated in a month, and the King has to select the candidate with the largest support, who has to face a vote from parliament. If no candidate is able to get a majority, we'll go to a repeat election in december-january.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2023, 05:04:41 PMEdit: Also the PP crowd chanting for Ayuso is pretty striking.
That's Madrid though - she's widely despised outside the capital.
She would be more effective at drinking Vox's milkshake that Feijoo was, though, that is true.
Eventful day. So far:
1) Puchi and Sánchez have reached an agreement to support a Socialist government in return for an amnesty (plus some other stuff).
Basically PSOE agrees to shit all over the Judiciary in order to form a government.
2) Vox founder Alex Vidal-Quadras was just shot in Madrid.
Well, Vidal-Quadras founded Vox, but he left the party many years ago and had distanced himself from it. Anyway, first reports is that he's stable and awake.
As somebody that was "okay, whatever" with the pardons, I very much don't like this amnesty business. All the other concessions are less important than people think, and many amount to vagaries that will go nowhere ("we'll discuss doing this! We'll discuss doing that!"). An amnesty as part of horse trading to form a government though? Utterly dangerous precedent.
Well, right now it seems the main line of investigation is... Iran.
Vidal-Quadras has ties with some opposition group, and he's been sanctioned by the regime. But this seems... odd. I mean, he's a very minor political figure at this point in time. Has Iran ever been tied to assassinations of Western citizens?
Oh God it's MEK right?
They're a crazy opposition group/cult/terrorist organisation who are absolutely loathed in Iran (I think because they backed Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war but also for the terrorism), but lots of Western politicians get involved with them (normally when they're retired - so I assume they pay well). You'll often see them posting these incredibly glossy, expensive looking events with, say, Giuliani and Howard Dean or some French ex-PM addressing them about Iranian freedom.
Yes, that's the one.
So, in a bizarre turn of events, Tucker Carlson has showed up in a demo against the amnesty, alongside Vox's leaders.
Does this mean I have to be in favor of it now?
Jesus ... could you guys keep him that side of the Atlantic, please?
We're more than capable of destroying our democracy without help.
Quick summary of what's going on for those interested:
Despite projections, PP failed to get enough seats to form a government last summer. This is in large part because nobody wants to align with Vox, so PP + Vox must get over 50% seats to win.
I (naively) thought it would all result in a hung parliament and repeat elections.
It won't. Sánchez has negotiated with all the minor parties.
The most interesting deal was struck with Junts, the party of former president of Catalonia, Puigdemont.
The published document embraced the separatist narrative of the events of 2017, called for an amnesty and acknowledged the Judiary had fabricated cases against the separatists, announcing that parliamentary committees would review and take action against "lawfare".
So basically the door has been opened for the government to mess with the judicial branch.
Condemnation followed from every single judge association (including those linked to the Socialists), as well as many other interested parties (the entire Supreme Court, prosecutors, attorneys, unions, ...).
A lot of people have taken to the streets in protest, though the most radical elements of the far right have marred the demonstrations.
The text of the amnesty was leaked yesterday. The stated objective is "to quell tension" in Catalonia. Which is bullshit, of course. The objective is to buy votes to form government.
This deal is also almost guaranteed to do the exact opposite of quelling tension (which had simmered down nicely anyway).
Either the Constitutional Court declares it invalid (which would revive separatist victimhood) or a future PP & Vox government does it in a few years (with the same result).
If the law is found constitutional, I don't think a future conservative government striking it down will change anything. Most favorable law applies in criminal court. Same reason the 1977 amnesty has never been amended to prosecute Francoist torturers, would serve no purpose.
They also didn't include the lawfare thing in the amnesty law. It's just an ambiguous reference in the confidence & supply deal with Junts. So for now it has no legal presence.
The infuriating thing (and I'm generally against amnesties unless very dire circumstances) is that this is just to buy votes. From the same guys that benefit from the amnesty. Really...
They can't roll back the law, no.
But they can swing the pendulum otherwise. For example when it comes to devolved powers.
So... what's with your king being a cuckold. This a big story in Spain?
Quote from: HVC on December 14, 2023, 05:13:16 AMSo... what's with your king being a cuckold. This a big story in Spain?
Allegedly with her sister's ex-husband no less :D
My stance remains the same. If I have to have a monarchy, I want it to be profoundly decadent.
Quote from: celedhring on December 14, 2023, 05:24:52 AMQuote from: HVC on December 14, 2023, 05:13:16 AMSo... what's with your king being a cuckold. This a big story in Spain?
Allegedly with her sister's ex-husband no less :D
My stance remains the same. If I have to have a monarchy, I want it to be profoundly decadent.
That's what happens when you marry a commoner. Come on Kate, you're up :D
Do either of the daughters looks suspiciously like the stable boy, or is that just a British monarchy thing :P
So chemtrails are a conspiracy of Jews and ETA? :unsure:
(https://i.imgur.com/7uTm10L.png)
I liked the "Watch the Skies!" (¡Mirad al cielo! ideally), a nice '50s SF reference. :P
Been a while since I heard of chemtrails. Glad to see the old and mostly harmless conspiracies are still kicking in this age of anti vax insanity.
I can't recall any pilots being attacked over chemtrails.
Vaccinators on the other hand... Plus the mere fact of people not vaccinating