Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Sheilbh]

Immediate elections in a field of rubble, when there are no options, and a foreign invader is attacking.

Also I don't think the result should matter. Civilians don't have rights to protection because of what they support politically or how they voted, but because they're civilians. It wouldn't legitimise whatever Israel did - I don't think it would legitimise anything.

[FunkMonk]

Yi's idea makes me think of the old "unsure if serious" meme.

[Tamas]

The IDF released what they claim to be photos of Hamas plans for the defense of Jabalia the "refugee camp" (why are these towns and cities are still called that?) where there was a recent outrage at Israel daring to bomb it. It was allegedly captured in a raid. Helps putting Josq's "terror bombing" into perspective I guess: https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720510542769434822?s=20

[viper37]

The IDF released what they claim to be photos of Hamas plans for the defense of Jabalia the "refugee camp" (why are these towns and cities are still called that?) where there was a recent outrage at Israel daring to bomb it. It was allegedly captured in a raid. Helps putting Josq's "terror bombing" into perspective I guess: https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720510542769434822?s=20

So, cities/refugee camps that get regularly bombed are now defended, so it's ok to bombed them, I guess?

I suppose it makes Hamas strategy of shooting rockets at civilian population center a valid one too?  Most citizens of Israel are conscript, so I suppose we could invoked some twisted logic to make them military targets too?

[Josquius]

The IDF released what they claim to be photos of Hamas plans for the defense of Jabalia the "refugee camp" (why are these towns and cities are still called that?) where there was a recent outrage at Israel daring to bomb it. It was allegedly captured in a raid. Helps putting Josq's "terror bombing" into perspective I guess: https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720510542769434822?s=20

For every example where they prove Hamas was hiding something there's a bunch more where silence remains.

Even in cases of Hamas using human shields as cover for something nefarious, it's still valid to expect some care be taken to minimise civilian casualties.

[Valmy]

But we are not talking about things from thousands of years ago. We are talking about stuff from a hundred or so years ago. Even over here memories aren't that short.

I honestly don't know what Raz is talking about.  Jews and Muslims have been killing one another and been intermittently at peace since the arrival of Islam.

Well Jews were second class citizens whose symbolic subjugation to Islam was important. That isn't to say they couldn't thrive in Islamic societies, they could and did and usually did better than in a place like Germany or Spain, but that is just the case.

If we are tracing a line at the beginning of the Zionist movement, then both groups have been committing atrocities against one another in the area.

Ok but there were a lot of Palestinians who were Jews. The response to the Zionists moving in from Europe and Yemen was to launch pogroms against their own Jewish people and drive them into the arms to settlers. Which is a pattern we saw with Jewish populations all over North Africa and West Asia. These people had been peacefully living as second class citizens in subjugation for centuries what the hell had they done to deserve to be persecuted and driven from their homes besides being Jews? Well their descendants are like half the Israelis. That completely unjustified and horrendous persecution of a population who had been nothing but productive and loyal, despite being treated poorly, is what drove Israeli strength and Israeli hatred and distrust for the Arabs.

For whatever reason this persecution and ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Jews is never mentioned. Never credited. Completely irrelevant despite being key to whole tragedy of the situation. And that really distinguishes this situation and why it is more like a Balkan ethnic struggle than really a settle colonizer thing.

If the line is the creation of Israel, there's a clear demarcation that the country is expelling and killing Palestinians in the hope that even more will leave the area by themselves and this process as accelerated recently.

Of course. That is exactly how these kinds of ethnic conflicts work. Both sides hate and fear each other. They would prefer the other side be gone.

Heck, we even had eye witness testimony on this forum for a while who reveled in saying that Palestinian wells should be poisoned.  But Siegebreaker was the oppressed one according to Raz?  It does not really make sense to me.

I don't know Siege's particular situation, but it isn't like the Palestinians are over there saying how much they just want to give the Israelis hugs and kisses.

My conclusion here is that both sides are driven to madness by a toxic combination of religious fanaticism and a recent history of brutal persecution and trauma. Neither can be trusted and neither really want to live in productive peace with the other. And my whole thought on my country's involvement is that we shouldn't be on anybody's side as nobody is on our side.

I mean even look at the catch phrase of the Palestinian supporters: Palestine should be free from the river to the sea. Sounds like nationalist bullshit to me. Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. The people who live in the area should be free from the river to the sea, regardless of whether or not they fit some national box.

So until I have confidence that somebody over there actually wants peace and justice I would prefer we did nothing. Because until then, whomever we support will betray us as the Israelis have done time and time again. They just ignore what the USA wants and does whatever. And from what I can tell the Palestinians have basically treated their benefactors, back when they had them, the same way. We are just tools to be used in their little fight, not real partners.

[Valmy]

The IDF released what they claim to be photos of Hamas plans for the defense of Jabalia the "refugee camp" (why are these towns and cities are still called that?) where there was a recent outrage at Israel daring to bomb it. It was allegedly captured in a raid. Helps putting Josq's "terror bombing" into perspective I guess: https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720510542769434822?s=20

For every example where they prove Hamas was hiding something there's a bunch more where silence remains.

Even in cases of Hamas using human shields as cover for something nefarious, it's still valid to expect some care be taken to minimise civilian casualties.

Well Hamas WANTS there to be lots of civilian casualties. That complicates things.

That isn't a normal thing armies trying to minimize civilian casualties have to face.

[Tonitrus]

Yeah, I know, but if this mess is to be solved someone needs to step up. Pay the African Union or something, some external, non UN, actor is probably needed.

Or there is the Tom Clancy solution:  Bring in the Vatican and the Swiss Guards.

[HVC]

Yeah, I know, but if this mess is to be solved someone needs to step up. Pay the African Union or something, some external, non UN, actor is probably needed.

Or there is the Tom Clancy solution:  Bring in the Vatican and the Swiss Guards.

Yup, if the crusades have show us anything it's that when Catholics show up in the holy land violence and death decreases

[PJL]

I hear the Knights of St John are still around looking for a country. Perhaps they could take over the running of Gaza. What could possibly go wrong...

[viper37]

But we are not talking about things from thousands of years ago. We are talking about stuff from a hundred or so years ago. Even over here memories aren't that short.

I honestly don't know what Raz is talking about.  Jews and Muslims have been killing one another and been intermittently at peace since the arrival of Islam.

Well Jews were second class citizens whose symbolic subjugation to Islam was important. That isn't to say they couldn't thrive in Islamic societies, they could and did and usually did better than in a place like Germany or Spain, but that is just the case.

Non Muslims to be more precise.  Christians had the same status as Jews in Islamic countries. 

If we are tracing a line at the beginning of the Zionist movement, then both groups have been committing atrocities against one another in the area.

Ok but there were a lot of Palestinians who were Jews. The response to the Zionists moving in from Europe and Yemen was to launch pogroms against their own Jewish people and drive them into the arms to settlers. Which is a pattern we saw with Jewish populations all over North Africa and West Asia. These people had been peacefully living as second class citizens in subjugation for centuries what the hell had they done to deserve to be persecuted and driven from their homes besides being Jews? Well their descendants are like half the Israelis. That completely unjustified and horrendous persecution of a population who had been nothing but productive and loyal, despite being treated poorly, is what drove Israeli strength and Israeli hatred and distrust for the Arabs.
For whatever reason this persecution and ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Jews is never mentioned. Never credited. Completely irrelevant despite being key to whole tragedy of the situation. And that really distinguishes this situation and why it is more like a Balkan ethnic struggle than really a settle colonizer thing.

Well, yes, of course, at the time of the creation of Israel many Palestinians were Jews, and the UN was expecting a lot of immigration coming from Europe due to persecution, which is why they allocated more lands to the Jewish population in their partition plan.

The Arabs rejected it, the Jewish population rebelled against the British to declare independence on their own terms and expel the Palestian Arabs from their lands.

And then, yes, the Arab countries stupidly expelled their Jewish population and created even more problems in the region.  But it's no big deal according to Raz, because everyone lose their homes and their possession once in a while, so why should we bother or lament that, right?  But I totally agree with you.  These people had done nothing to deserve this.


As for talking about it, I've seen it talked often enough, but not by the pro-Palestinian side, obviously.  No more than the pro Israeli side talks about the Nakba.

Heck, we even had eye witness testimony on this forum for a while who reveled in saying that Palestinian wells should be poisoned.  But Siegebreaker was the oppressed one according to Raz?  It does not really make sense to me.

I don't know Siege's particular situation, but it isn't like the Palestinians are over there saying how much they just want to give the Israelis hugs and kisses.

Israel's parliament has passed a law denying naturalisation to Palestinians from the occupied West Bank or Gaza married to Israeli citizens, forcing thousands of Palestinian families to either emigrate or live apart.  Mar 11, 2022

It's hard to kiss in this situation.

My conclusion here is that both sides are driven to madness by a toxic combination of religious fanaticism and a recent history of brutal persecution and trauma. Neither can be trusted and neither really want to live in productive peace with the other. And my whole thought on my country's involvement is that we shouldn't be on anybody's side as nobody is on our side.
I mean even look at the catch phrase of the Palestinian supporters: Palestine should be free from the river to the sea. Sounds like nationalist bullshit to me. Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. The people who live in the area should be free from the river to the sea, regardless of whether or not they fit some national box.
So until I have confidence that somebody over there actually wants peace and justice I would prefer we did nothing. Because until then, whomever we support will betray us as the Israelis have done time and time again. They just ignore what the USA wants and does whatever. And from what I can tell the Palestinians have basically treated their benefactors, back when they had them, the same way. We are just tools to be used in their little fight, not real partners.

That particular catch phrase is new to me.  It's the first year I'm hearing it, and I've watched a lot of these protests.  They're usually much worst...

I'm not taking any sides, but Israel's plan is kinda transparent here. They've been at it for years in the West Bank and the recent attacks gave them a pretext to accelerate the timetable in Gaza.  Within 2 years they will have expelled the Palestinian from there.  Netanyahu has never hidden his opposition to any kind of Palestinian state in the West Bank and this is what the Israeli population voted for.  IDF soldiers are shooting unarmed Palestinians or those who resists and they are protecting the settlers who are attacking the Palestinians.

The only side I'm on is the side of civilians victims of the terror inflicted by both side.  A teenager shot in the back of the head by soldiers while giving assistance to an injured man is a war crime.  To see the government lauding these soldiers as heroes is sickening.  To see soldiers defending the settlers attacking the Palestinians is more than disturbing.

Hamas was allowed to rearm itself.  Money kept flowing into Gaza.  Warning signs were given.  But Bibi was busy elsewhere.  This is criminal negligence.  Because he was too busy attacking civilians to steal their homes.  This should never have happened.  Hamas committed the atrocities, this government gave them the matches and the gasoline.  1400 Israeli citizens needlessly died.  And many Palestinians are getting killed, and many more will die before this conflict is over.

When even the US is telling Israel to go easy, it's because they're really going heavy handed. Afaik, I don't think this has even happened publicly before.

[viper37]

Yeah, I know, but if this mess is to be solved someone needs to step up. Pay the African Union or something, some external, non UN, actor is probably needed.

Or there is the Tom Clancy solution:  Bring in the Vatican and the Swiss Guards.

Yup, if the crusades have show us anything it's that when Catholics show up in the holy land violence and death decreases

According to so many Christians, their religion spread by the Good word alone, never by the sword, unlike Islam, that evil religion.

[viper37]

The IDF released what they claim to be photos of Hamas plans for the defense of Jabalia the "refugee camp" (why are these towns and cities are still called that?) where there was a recent outrage at Israel daring to bomb it. It was allegedly captured in a raid. Helps putting Josq's "terror bombing" into perspective I guess: https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720510542769434822?s=20

For every example where they prove Hamas was hiding something there's a bunch more where silence remains.

Even in cases of Hamas using human shields as cover for something nefarious, it's still valid to expect some care be taken to minimise civilian casualties.

Well Hamas WANTS there to be lots of civilian casualties. That complicates things.

That isn't a normal thing armies trying to minimize civilian casualties have to face.

They're actively trying to keep civilians in the north and preventing them to flee.  Not that it really matters, Israel bombs everywhere anyway. It just makes a difference for the ground forces, they'll get to happily  shoot more civilians and claim they were enemy combatants.

[Admiral Yi]

Also I don't think the result should matter. Civilians don't have rights to protection because of what they support politically or how they voted, but because they're civilians. It wouldn't legitimise whatever Israel did - I don't think it would legitimise anything.

And yet objections were raised during the Vietnam War of bombing villages who's inhabitants were not even communist supporters.  And you yourself have pointed out the civilians killed by Hamas were from traditionally Labor voting, Old Israel, presumably peace favoring communities.  I could be hashing up this recollection so please correct me if I'm wrong.  Certainly many here have said that part of their objection to the deaths of Gaza civilians is they are living under coercion.  If these objections have standing then surely so do their obverses: that killing civilians who positively desire death and destruction are less objectionable victims of collateral damage.

[Admiral Yi]

For every example where they prove Hamas was hiding something there's a bunch more where silence remains.

What conclusion would you like us to draw from this?