Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

I mean we know what terror bombing looks like, just look at Ukraine. There is no evidence of anything like that here. Russia has literally been using WW2 era munitions in carpet bombing attacks at times.

Russia has no credibility to defend.  China and Iran will not stop aiding Russia if they "discover" they are careless at attacking civilians.

Israel is another matter.  They can go far, but not too far.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Hamas main HQ in Gaza is under a hospital. I am not convinced they are just targeting whatever they want, I think you may underestimate the degree to which Hamas has built Gaza's civilian infrastructure as its first line of defense.

That is regrettable, but not the fault of Israel.

[The Minsky Moment]

It all comes down to the problem of how does a nation respond to a foe that has nothing but contempt for international norms and the law of war and in fact actively exploits those rules for its own political and military advantage? And when that same foe is entirely uninterested in the safety of its population, and indeed views them more valuable as dead martyrs then living mouths to feed?

You can say that Israel has no good choices and that is so but still has to pick the best it can from the bad ones.

Any other nation in the world that sustained a similar attack and the had the military capacity to respond would do no less than Israel is doing now.  Any free nation that attempted do otherwise would have its government fall in a matter of seconds.

[Valmy]

It all comes down to the problem of how does a nation respond to a foe that has nothing but contempt for international norms and the law of war and in fact actively exploits those rules for its own political and military advantage? And when that same foe is entirely uninterested in the safety of its population, and indeed views them more valuable as dead martyrs then living mouths to feed?

You can say that Israel has no good choices and that is so but still has to pick the best it can from the bad ones.

Any other nation in the world that sustained a similar attack and the had the military capacity to respond would do no less than Israel is doing now.  Any free nation that attempted do otherwise would have its government fall in a matter of seconds.

Sure if any other nation was just put in Israel's current position right now it would probably have no choice but to act roughly similarly, at least in the short term.

My issue is that the current situation was not just created by a magic spell. It happened over a century and a half of choices made by both sides. I don't think any country would have made the same choices Netanyahu and the other various Israeli governments have made since 1995.

[PJL]

It all comes down to the problem of how does a nation respond to a foe that has nothing but contempt for international norms and the law of war and in fact actively exploits those rules for its own political and military advantage? And when that same foe is entirely uninterested in the safety of its population, and indeed views them more valuable as dead martyrs then living mouths to feed?

You can say that Israel has no good choices and that is so but still has to pick the best it can from the bad ones.

Any other nation in the world that sustained a similar attack and the had the military capacity to respond would do no less than Israel is doing now.  Any free nation that attempted do otherwise would have its government fall in a matter of seconds.

Exactly and is why we should be giving Israel some slack on this.

[Razgovory]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

I have never said the Palestinians have no right to exist or that Palestine has no right to exist.

You said people got displaced all the time and it was no big deal.  If that's not a negation of their right to exists, I don't know what it is...

Yeah, so?  Germans got displaced, I still think Germans have a right to exist.

They have their own country, afaik.  No one is invading Germany and constantly displacing Germans.  No one is shooting German civilians and calling them terrorist the moment to retaliate against their armed assailants, conflating them with the scums that attack civilians.

The Germans made peace.

[PJL]

It all comes down to the problem of how does a nation respond to a foe that has nothing but contempt for international norms and the law of war and in fact actively exploits those rules for its own political and military advantage? And when that same foe is entirely uninterested in the safety of its population, and indeed views them more valuable as dead martyrs then living mouths to feed?

You can say that Israel has no good choices and that is so but still has to pick the best it can from the bad ones.

Any other nation in the world that sustained a similar attack and the had the military capacity to respond would do no less than Israel is doing now.  Any free nation that attempted do otherwise would have its government fall in a matter of seconds.

Sure if any other nation was just put in Israel's current position right now it would probably have no choice but to act roughly similarly, at least in the short term.

My issue is that the current situation was not just created by a magic spell. It happened over a century and a half of choices made by both sides. I don't think any country would have made the same choices Netanyahu and the other various Israeli governments have made since 1995.

What-iffery is a just another form of what-aboutery IMO. We can never know what other actions Israel and others could have taken to change or alter the circumstances it now find itself in - it's all conjecture. All we can ever do is the assess the situation now and proceed from there.

[Valmy]

Yeah Germany surrendered and put up with being occupied for decades peacefully. Sometimes your situation sucks and you have to eat a shit sandwich.

Palestine has never surrendered. They still think they can win. If the Germans were sure that eventually the German Reich could still triumph and spent years threatening everybody with violence, things would have gone much differently for them.

I mean the PLA, not Hamas mind you, just recently released a statement reminding its people that the Prophet Muhammed prophesied the extermination of the Jews by the Muslims so just hold on! Victory is coming!

Can you imagine the West German government saying that Hitler said that it was the destiny of Germans to exterminate the Americans, British, and French? So just keep up the fight! We can still win!!!111

So it is hard for me to sit there and agree that the Israelis are the only nutters and assholes when the supposedly moderate government of the Palestinians says stuff like that. Both sides are full of bastards who want blood and believe God is on their side and will deliver them victory if they just be pieces of shit for a long enough time. Now it may not be the majority of either side, but it is a critical mass sufficiently powerful to ensure nothing productive ever happens.

[Valmy]

What-iffery is a just another form of what-aboutery IMO. We can never know what other actions Israel and others could have taken to change or alter the circumstances it now find itself in - it's all conjecture. All we can ever do is the assess the situation now and proceed from there.

It has to do with what both sides have done. It is about trusting them and their intentions.

Unfortunately, neither side can be trusted. Or at least can be trusted, just trusted to basically continue doing the same stuff they always have done.

[garbon]

It all comes down to the problem of how does a nation respond to a foe that has nothing but contempt for international norms and the law of war and in fact actively exploits those rules for its own political and military advantage? And when that same foe is entirely uninterested in the safety of its population, and indeed views them more valuable as dead martyrs then living mouths to feed?

You can say that Israel has no good choices and that is so but still has to pick the best it can from the bad ones.

Any other nation in the world that sustained a similar attack and the had the military capacity to respond would do no less than Israel is doing now.  Any free nation that attempted do otherwise would have its government fall in a matter of seconds.

Yeah this is what has confused me from UK politicians/commentators and UN calling for ceasefire. Israel is expected to turn the other cheek or outsource security decisions to other polities/organizations?

None of that is reasonable.

[Zoupa]

I have no idea what the solution to this shit is, but IMHO, doing air strikes to kill a Hamas commander in the middle of a refugee camp is callous, counterproductive pretty terrible all around.

I'm talking about the recent Jabalia refugee camp strike, where the IDF bombed a "Hamas senior commander", resulting in dozens of civilian deaths. The images are absolutely horrific. There has to be a better way to neutralize these guys.

[Valmy]

It all comes down to the problem of how does a nation respond to a foe that has nothing but contempt for international norms and the law of war and in fact actively exploits those rules for its own political and military advantage? And when that same foe is entirely uninterested in the safety of its population, and indeed views them more valuable as dead martyrs then living mouths to feed?

You can say that Israel has no good choices and that is so but still has to pick the best it can from the bad ones.

Any other nation in the world that sustained a similar attack and the had the military capacity to respond would do no less than Israel is doing now.  Any free nation that attempted do otherwise would have its government fall in a matter of seconds.

Yeah this is what has confused me from UK politicians/commentators and UN calling for ceasefire. Israel is expected to turn the other cheek or outsource security decisions to other polities/organizations?

None of that is reasonable.

I think the security decision HAS to be outsourced. I said back in 2006 that some kind of third party had to step in and disarm Hamas and provide security for Gaza and enable a functional government to be able to be established. That was what had to happen in 2006 for Gaza to be successful. Israel is Palestine's enemy. They cannot do it.

But nobody wants to do that. And we know how it would go. Hamas would launch attacks on the security forces and provoke a response and the whole thing would collapse. Because Hamas doesn't want a functional and peaceful Gaza, they want war with Israel. They want the Palestinian people to suffer because it enhances their power and keeps up the pressure on their enemy. And they have lots of support for that position. Now maybe it isn't everybody. Maybe it is not even the majority. But it is enough to ensure Hamas is always in control in Gaza and nobody can or wants to do anything about it.

And so long as Hamas is in charge in Gaza, Israel is fucked. Which, of course, is the idea.

But Israel is not exactly doing themselves any favors. They seen to be enacting policies designed to make the situation as bad as possible, I suspect because they have their own nutjobs who think God will eventually deliver them total victory and the promised land or some shit.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Stars of David were painted on more than a few dozen buildings in the 13th, 14th, 15th and 18th arrondissement in Paris.
Not dissimilar to the sign for Christian that ISIS painted on buildings in Syria and Iraq.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I think the security decision HAS to be outsourced. I said back in 2006 that some kind of third party had to step in and disarm Hamas and provide security for Gaza and enable a functional government to be able to be established. 

There's no 3rd party interested in having its people be decapited ruling over that bunch until they're ready to properly rule themselves.

[Grey Fox]

I have no idea what the solution to this shit is, but IMHO, doing air strikes to kill a Hamas commander in the middle of a refugee camp is callous, counterproductive pretty terrible all around.

I'm talking about the recent Jabalia refugee camp strike, where the IDF bombed a "Hamas senior commander", resulting in dozens of civilian deaths. The images are absolutely horrific. There has to be a better way to neutralize these guys.

Got to force Egypt accept the population somehow.