Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

I have never said the Palestinians have no right to exist or that Palestine has no right to exist.

You said people got displaced all the time and it was no big deal.  If that's not a negation of their right to exists, I don't know what it is...

Yeah, so?  Germans got displaced, I still think Germans have a right to exist.

They have their own country, afaik.  No one is invading Germany and constantly displacing Germans.  No one is shooting German civilians and calling them terrorist the moment to retaliate against their armed assailants, conflating them with the scums that attack civilians.

[The Minsky Moment]

I mean, it's hardly on the same scale but there's a protest every month outside the Chinese embassy in London which is organised by left wing activists.

https://uyghursolidarityuk.org/

That is a very different looking sort of protest in size, manner, and virtually other respect than the ones we've been seeing in past weeks.

[Jacob]

So, according to this Israel has a "concept paper" that involves transferring Palestinians to Egypt with the idea of them eventually going to a third destination like Canada.

1. Did they check with Canada? Not sure now's the right political climate for that.
2. Surely that's illegal.

On the first point, I don't think they're going to find a convenient third country willing to take millions of Palestinians - or significant portion. I think Canada is hypothetically one of the best bets globally, and I don't think it'd fly here.

If they do, it'll also have the medium term effect of turning that country against Israel as hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinian voters is going to impact their foreign policy.

That said, a concept paper is not a policy - it's a discussion. It may well be that the concept paper reached the same conclusion (or some other reason why the idea shouldn't be pursued).

[Gups]

Of course (and I said so).  I was contesting your assertion that the only people outraged by treatment of the Uigars were conservatives.

[Josquius]

Part of the Hamas raid was the use of drones dropping explosives to disable the sensors on which the automated Israeli defense posts along the border rely to operate.  I don't know if these posts are manned or fully automated.  If someone were to describe these attacks as "another Hiroshima" would you defend their statements the same way your are defending yours?  After all, that would just be another example of "oh we're having that argument," the one you don't care about.

That would make no sense.
If it was a nuclear device used, no matter how weak and ineffectual, then I do expect the media would say its another Hiroshima and eyes would roll- I think I recall this being said around Fukushima quite ridiculously.
But nothing nuclear was involved so I'm not sure I see the relevance here . I never said what Israel was doing was another 9/11 or Dresden or whatever. Merely that they were flattening civilian areas of Gaza with no military value. Which they are.

The point you seem to be incapable of fathoming is that in addition to the moral aspect of the bombing of Gaza there is an empirical aspect as well.  I personally, and I like to think most people here as well, think that Israel has a right to self defense, which includes retaliation and/or the elimination of the enemy threat.  I also think acts which go beyond this to pure cruelty, the purposeful killing of innocent babies, should not be done by a civilized people in this day and age, but that in the process of killing Hamas innocent people will suffer.

Israel has a right to self defence.
What they are doing is not self defence.
Being victim of a terrorist attack doesn't give a state carte blanche

I think when large numbers of posters with divergent views and nothing else in common are taking exception to what you said, that might be a good sign for you to reassess your position.

On the contrary I take it as further sign that I am right and the reach and depth of the 'Israel can do no wrong' position really is hitting worrying levels.
Drop preconceptions take a step back and look at what is happening.
This is not OK.
The correct response to a bunch of innocent children being murdered isn't to kill yet more innocent children.

I made no such claim. Such a predictable lie from you.

You literally said "terror bombing" came from the BBC, your lying has reached a pretty tedious level at this point.

No I didn't. Do stop lying when its right there in black and white (well. Pale greyish-blue on my screen).

[HVC]

You literally said "terror bombing" came from the BBC, your lying has reached a pretty tedious level at this point.

No I didn't. Do stop lying when its right there in black and white (well. Pale greyish-blue on my screen).

Short term amnesia?

[Admiral Yi]

That would make no sense.
If it was a nuclear device used, no matter how weak and ineffectual, then I do expect the media would say its another Hiroshima and eyes would roll- I think I recall this being said around Fukushima quite ridiculously.
But nothing nuclear was involved so I'm not sure I see the relevance here . I never said what Israel was doing was another 9/11 or Dresden or whatever. Merely that they were flattening civilian areas of Gaza with no military value. Which they are.

Great.  So Hiroshima has an irreducible essence, who's meaning does not change depending on whether you like them or not. 

Now you are proposing an irreducible essence of terror bombing.  That's great too.  Have the details you mentioned to support your use of terror bombing been entered into evidence, or are you assuming they are true?  How do you know the civilian areas which are being flattened have no military value?

Israel has a right to self defence.
What they are doing is not self defence.
Being victim of a terrorist attack doesn't give a state carte blanche

Which facts did you assess to come to the conclusion that what Israel is doing is not self defense?

On the contrary I take it as further sign that I am right and the reach and depth of the 'Israel can do no wrong' position really is hitting worrying levels.
Drop preconceptions take a step back and look at what is happening.
This is not OK.
The correct response to a bunch of innocent children being murdered isn't to kill yet more innocent children

I think the correct response to a bunch of innocent children being murdered is to kill the people who did it, and if it is impossible to do that without killing innocents because of factors outside your control, then I am willing to accept some level of civilian casualties.

The part about being right because everyone says you're wrong frankly sounds bonkers.  Like Unabomber thinking.

[DGuller]

You literally said "terror bombing" came from the BBC, your lying has reached a pretty tedious level at this point.

No I didn't. Do stop lying when its right there in black and white (well. Pale greyish-blue on my screen).

Short term amnesia?

To be fair, he didn't directly say that BBC called it terror bombing, but the implication was so strong and unambiguous given what he was replying to that he may as well have said that. 

When someone says "whoever said this dress looks good is an idiot", and you reply "so your wife is an idiot?", you didn't directly say that my wife said this dress looks good, but to deny that for all intents and purposes you did say that is still full on dishonest.  Not weasely or slick, just plain dishonest.

[Jacob]

That whole line of discussion is peak languish.

[Admiral Yi]

Sorry Josq, but your editorial bullshit calling IDF bombings "terror bombings" is entirely based on whatever leftist sewer you get your information from, reddit, bad leftist journalists, dunno. But there is no actual evidence the IDF is engaging in "terror bombing", they release specific claims that every target they strike was believed to have Hamas assets or infrastructure, and they are still broadly speaking, using the "warning" system before hitting such a target that also has civilians in it.

The BBC is a leftist sewer now? 
Look at the footage yourself and tell me that doesn't look more like strategic bombing than a targeted missile strike.

Here is the relevant exchange.  I find Squeeze not guilty of the indictment.  It's quite clear to me that what he is saying is he saw some footage on BBC of bomb strikes and drew the conclusion from that footage that Israel is engaged in terror bombing, not that the BBC used terror bombing in its report.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Sorry Josq, but your editorial bullshit calling IDF bombings "terror bombings" is entirely based on whatever leftist sewer you get your information from, reddit, bad leftist journalists, dunno. But there is no actual evidence the IDF is engaging in "terror bombing", they release specific claims that every target they strike was believed to have Hamas assets or infrastructure, and they are still broadly speaking, using the "warning" system before hitting such a target that also has civilians in it.

The BBC is a leftist sewer now? 
Look at the footage yourself and tell me that doesn't look more like strategic bombing than a targeted missile strike.

Here is the relevant exchange.  I find Squeeze not guilty of the indictment.  It's quite clear to me that what he is saying is he saw some footage on BBC of bomb strikes and drew the conclusion from that footage that Israel is engaged in terror bombing, not that the BBC used terror bombing in its report.

Maybe. I think he was attempting to use the BBC as an imprimatur of legitimacy for his views.

Whether that is true or not, Jihadi Josq appears to continue to assert Israel is conducting a campaign of terror sans any evidence.

[garbon]

Of course (and I said so).  I was contesting your assertion that the only people outraged by treatment of the Uigars were conservatives.

One of the key organisations I've had interactions with vis a vis the Uighurs is this Jewish group in the UK.

https://renecassin.org/genocide/

[PJL]

I think if Israel was really conducting terror bombings, the death toll would be at least 10 times what Hamas is saying now (and those figures should be taken with a pinch of salt). As it stands the figure seems to be in line with previous large scale special military operations (aka wars) the IDF have been involved in.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I mean we know what terror bombing looks like, just look at Ukraine. There is no evidence of anything like that here. Russia has literally been using WW2 era munitions in carpet bombing attacks at times.

[viper37]

I think if Israel was really conducting terror bombings, the death toll would be at least 10 times what Hamas is saying now (and those figures should be taken with a pinch of salt). As it stands the figure seems to be in line with previous large scale special military operations (aka wars) the IDF have been involved in.

I don't think it can be called terror bombing.
I don't think I know how to describe this.

They sure ain't targeting only Hamas sites though.

Obviously, Hamas is hiding amongst civilians, but Israel is using this justification loosely.  And they've admitted they don't make any distinction between a civilian and a Hamas supporter.

On the one hand, Hamas would claim anyone killed is a civilian, even they had a bazooka in their hands.  On the other, this government will claim anyone not Israeli in Gaza and the West Bank is a terrorist.