Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Threviel]

Lots of people around me go around saying that both sides in the conflict is equally bad. That's, in my mind, to implicitly take sides for Hamas, since they are not equally bad. Especially since the same people often advocate for immediate cease-fire.

So by saying that they don't pick a side whilst at the same time spreading Hamas propaganda they are picking a side.

An observation on people around me and not meant as opposition to Brainy.

[Josquius]

Lots of people around me go around saying that both sides in the conflict is equally bad. That's, in my mind, to implicitly take sides for Hamas, since they are not equally bad. Especially since the same people often advocate for immediate cease-fire.

So by saying that they don't pick a side whilst at the same time spreading Hamas propaganda they are picking a side.

An observation on people around me and not meant as opposition to Brainy.

Propaganda isn't always inaccurate.
Israel are killing lots of civilians. I just can't watch the news anymore as you know there's going to be yet more dead babies.
Just because its in Hamas' interest for us to condemn Israel for this doesn't mean we are therefore wrong to do it. Sometimes interests can align even with absolute shit bags.

Some people in society think that you always have to pick a side. You don't. You don't have to support Gaza just because  you oppose Israel, and vice versa. Example: I strongly support Ukraine in its current war with Russia. If Ukraine carried out an attack on Russian civilians of a similar type and scale as the recent attack on Israel, I would instantly drop my support for Ukraine. I still wouldn't support Russia.

You have a morally bankrupt standard. Ukraine is well within it's rights to retaliate against Russia and Israel is within it's rights to debilitate Gaza.

Ukraine and Israel are not well within their right to murder babies no.
An  eye for an eye makes the world blind.

[Threviel]

They are not murdering babies. Babies are dying in a war, horrible as fuck, but it is not murder. Israel is not aiming for babies and is actually trying to not kill them.
 
The Gazans are murdering babies, actually going into civilian houses and selectively tortyring babies to death.

They are not the same. Sure, both sides kill babies, but motive matters a lot.

[Josquius]

They are not murdering babies. Babies are dying in a war, horrible as fuck, but it is not murder. Israel is not aiming for babies and is actually trying to not kill them.
 
The Gazans are murdering babies, actually going into civilian houses and selectively tortyring babies to death.

They are not the same. Sure, both sides kill babies, but motive matters a lot.

Sure. Motive matters.
Hamas purposefully slaughtered a few dozen kids.
Israel is terror bombing built up areas and a few hundred kids are happening to get caught in the explosions. Woopsy. Can't say they didn't tell them to leave despite having nowhere to go and no ability to get there.

Also worth considering that the space-time continuum matters. You can't stop a civilian from being killed last month. You absolutely can stop one from being killed next month.

[Threviel]

Kids die in war. Horrible as fuck but that don't make the war unjust.

Hamas needs to be eradicated, not just for Israels sake but also for the people of Gazas sake. How many babies die due to their rule? How many Palestinians do Hamas kill?

[Josquius]

Kids die in war. Horrible as fuck but that don't make the war unjust.

Hamas needs to be eradicated, not just for Israels sake but also for the people of Gazas sake. How many babies die due to their rule? How many Palestinians do Hamas kill?

And how do you think strategic bombing is going to eliminate a scattered terrorist group?

[grumbler]

Some people in society think that you always have to pick a side. You don't. You don't have to support Gaza just because  you oppose Israel, and vice versa. Example: I strongly support Ukraine in its current war with Russia. If Ukraine carried out an attack on Russian civilians of a similar type and scale as the recent attack on Israel, I would instantly drop my support for Ukraine. I still wouldn't support Russia.

You have a morally bankrupt standard. Ukraine is well within it's rights to retaliate against Russia and Israel is within it's rights to debilitate Gaza.

You have a bizarre view of what nation-states are.  States do not have rights.  They have powers.

[grumbler]

Israel is terror bombing built up areas...

Yet another useful idiot buys into Hamas propaganda.

[grumbler]

And how do you think strategic bombing is going to eliminate a scattered terrorist group?

Still more bizarro-world bullshit.  Don't use terms like "strategic bombing" when you don't know what they mean.

[Josquius]

Israel is terror bombing built up areas...

Yet another useful idiot buys into Hamas propaganda.

Oh do stop the perpetual shit munching you absolute waste.
Look at the fucking news.

[Threviel]

No-one is strategic bombing anything, Israel doesn't even have strategic bombers. Making things up does not increase your credibility.

Edit: Which means Grumbsy is right, stop spreading Hamas propaganda.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Sorry Josq, but your editorial bullshit calling IDF bombings "terror bombings" is entirely based on whatever leftist sewer you get your information from, reddit, bad leftist journalists, dunno. But there is no actual evidence the IDF is engaging in "terror bombing", they release specific claims that every target they strike was believed to have Hamas assets or infrastructure, and they are still broadly speaking, using the "warning" system before hitting such a target that also has civilians in it.

That doesn't mean Israel hasn't bombed some targets where their intel was wrong (this isn't a war crime, but it is bad), this doesn't mean that it isn't possible Israel has bombed some targets they knew they shouldn't (this could be a war crime), but there is no evidence their bombing campaign is comparable to a terror bombing campaign where the entire effort is predicated on just terrorizing and killing civilians. My baseline expectation is some level of war crimes occur in every war, but the claim that the IDF is engaging in systemic terror bombing is without evidence--and like all claims without evidence, can be dismissed.

I'm confused at what you think is a "lie". That is a particular choice if words.
It's a fact that in 1943 Karafuto/South Sakhalin was made a full Japanese Prefecture, that is legally part of the inner territories, Japan-proper, the home islands.

Ah, I see your confusion. No one in Japan considered Sakhalin to really be a home island. Its indigenous inhabitants were neither culturally Japanese or Russian, and it was colonized by both countries in the same era (1800s)--with actually greater evidence of Russian colonization and early discovery than Japanese--but they did have competing claims, before the 1905 war both sides were allowed to settle people there with sovereignty left "informal" (not dissimilar to America/Britain's situation in the Oregon Country.) It has none of the lengthy history of Japanese control or being part of Japanese culture.

Additionally the discussion wasn't about some legal technicality as to the status of the Sakhalins, it was about the military strategic reality--South Sakhalin was not invaded amphibiously, so you cannot use it as evidence that the USSR had the capacity to conduct an amphibious invasion of Hokkaido or one of the other home islands. The Kuril landings were all unopposed with minimal fighting on the islands, unless you actually believe the Japanese wouldn't contest a Soviet landing on Hokkaido they are also not comparable.

[Tamas]

Strategic bombing:



Not strategic bombing:

[Razgovory]

The Israelis found Shani Louk.  Or what is left of her.  They beheaded her.  Hamas had said she was in a Gazan hospital.  They must have gotten their tortured and raped German girls mixed up.

[Sheilbh]

I found these two Tweets from Biden (as part of a thread) striking:

President Biden
@POTUS
Earlier I spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu about the developments in Gaza — we discussed efforts to secure the release of hostages and help Americans in Gaza leave safely, and I underscored the need to immediately and significantly increase the flow of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza.

I reiterated that Israel has every right to defend its citizens from terrorism and a responsibility to do so in a manner consistent with international humanitarian law which prioritizes the protection of civilians.

President Biden
@POTUS
I also spoke with President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi to share my appreciation for Egypt facilitating the delivery of humanitarian assistance to Gaza.

We reaffirmed our commitment to work together and discussed the importance of protecting civilian lives, respect for international humanitarian law, and ensuring that Palestinians in Gaza are not displaced to Egypt or any other nation.

The public message from that call with Netanyahu is very clear, especially given how supportive Biden has been. I have seen reporters saying that even within the US government there is a lack of clarity on Israel's objectives, or Israel has not been able to state them - and that conequently even within the US there is a fear that it's constructive ambiguity to enable Israel to bank support from her allies without clarifying what her plans are until it's a fait accompli. Which I think makes the state on the call with Sisi particularly striking in particular on "ensuring that Palestinians in Gaza are not displaced to Egypt or any other nation." I don't think that would be included in the very brief summary of a call if it wasn't being flagged as a US or Egyptian fear - and, it strikes me as sending a message to Netanyahu.

Separately I'm seeing more unrest, and Israeli violence in the West Bank which is obviously unconnected with any operation against Hamas. Also striking was the video of a crowd in Netanya chanting "death to Arabs" (an old song for Israel's extremist police minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir) at a student dorm which a number of Arab Israelis had barricaded themselves inside - it took a long time for the police to disperse the crowds. Also reports of other ministries having to overrule directives from Smotrich that basically blocked funding to largely Arab towns in Israel. This all, I think, gets to the risk of what this coalition including extremists will do or tolerate. On the one hand a national unity government is the right thing, on the other I think opposition parties who have joined for the duration of this war need to be very wary of what their presence will legitimate.

Meanwhile saw a Hamas leader walk out of a BBC interview over killing civilians which is something that he flatly denied Hamas did on October 7. It is striking that Hamas' position seems to basically be denialism or minimisation of that (see also the Al-Arabiya interview), compared to the too online people in the West going on about "what did you think decolonisation would look like" or "don't judge the actions of an oppressed people". It seems that line is one that Hamas thinks would be unpalatable even on a channel like Al-Arabiya (acknowledging that's Saudi). In terms of impact in the world they're not the worst, but I don't think there's a group I find more contemptible than the vicarious radicals living out their revolution and being very careless with other people's lives from the comfort of stable and safe countries.