Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Threviel]

That the Germans are the only ones to genocide the Jews is a result of them being the only ones that had the opportunity and the will. Without a doubt we'd see them all killed or enslaved, October 7th style, by their Arab neighbours if they magically laid down their arms and dissolved Israel.

[Josquius]

If Germany pressed it's claims on the east it would have gotten the shit kicked out of it.  There is a reason why they made peace.  You situation isn't analogous.  For it to be analogous Germany wouldn't have ever made peace they would have just continued fighting after 1945.  And yeah, in that situation they would have lost more territory.  And frankly the Soviets would probably have exterminated them.  Or at least the Germans in their sector.  Some times you need to throw in the towel.

You're the one who made this analogy 

And the Palestinians aren't getting the shit kicked out of them routinely?

The Palestinian leadership just unilaterally renouncing their claims on the whole of Palestine would be a stupid thing to do. This would need to be done in exchange for something.
Again you really don't seem to understand the situation beyond a fox news outline.

[Razgovory]

I don't watch Fox.  I'm a leftist, remember?  That's why I don't side with Palestinian Fascists.

[DGuller]

That the Germans are the only ones to genocide the Jews is a result of them being the only ones that had the opportunity and the will. Without a doubt we'd see them all killed or enslaved, October 7th style, by their Arab neighbours if they magically laid down their arms and dissolved Israel.

Exactly.  October 7th should've shown to everyone what awaits the Jews if they even for a moment lose the ability to defend themselves militarily.  Thankfully they only lost the ability to defend themselves on a small part of Israel for a short period of time this time, but next time can be different.

[grumbler]

The Arabs were pretty clear that they wanted to drive the Jews into the sea.

How did they make it clear to you?  Al of the opinion polling I see from the Arab world shows strong support for a two-state solution.  Which Arabs talked to you and claimed to be representing "the Arabs?"

[grumbler]

Yeah, the Palestinians want the whole enchilada.  Polls are pretty clear on that.  The River to the Sea.  Hamas and Co represent the mainstream of Palestinian politics.

I don't know why you persist in clinging to this falsehood when it has been thoroughly demolished, even in this thread.  Polls are pretty clear that the Palestinians want a two-state solution (though the attractiveness of that has declined steadily in the face of the rise of the Israeli far-right takeover of Israeli politics) and that Hamas and its tactics are not acceptable to the vast majority of Palestinians. (see Question 6 here for example).

Making up current events in the Middle East is as bad as your making up of the history.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, the Palestinians want the whole enchilada.  Polls are pretty clear on that.  The River to the Sea.  Hamas and Co represent the mainstream of Palestinian politics.

I don't know why you persist in clinging to this falsehood when it has been thoroughly demolished, even in this thread.  Polls are pretty clear that the Palestinians want a two-state solution (though the attractiveness of that has declined steadily in the face of the rise of the Israeli far-right takeover of Israeli politics) and that Hamas and its tactics are not acceptable to the vast majority of Palestinians. (see Question 6 here for example).

Making up current events in the Middle East is as bad as your making up of the history.

Your poll showed that 26 percent of them wanted a two state solution.  So you lied.  Good bye

[Crazy_Ivan80]

If Israel relinquished territory the attacks would still happen.  The Hamas charter says so.  In fact the Palestinians would have much, much more territory if they simply didn't try to genocide the Jews in the first place. And then keep trying it for 80 years. But that's racial hatred for you.  Maybe one day they will realize that shooting rockets at people on results in getting their shit wrecked.

The Hamas charter also says that Jews are to be perfectly safe and content in an Islamic Palestine.  You should go back to your history books if you think that the Palestinians were the ones who "tried] to genocide the Jews in the first place."  Adolph Hitler was not Palestinians nor were the death camps run by Palestinians.  You'll find out, with very little research, that it was Nazis that tried to "genocide the Jews."  And no one has been trying to "genocide the Jews" for "80 years."

You cannot learn from history if the history you cite is just one made up by yourself on the fly. 

Hamas is a criminal organization that should be wiped from the face of the earth... but not at any cost.

I'm not sure the jews want to be "Khaybar"-safe under muslims though.

[Razgovory]

It didn't work out for the Jews under Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia etc, etc.

[Razgovory]

That the Germans are the only ones to genocide the Jews is a result of them being the only ones that had the opportunity and the will. Without a doubt we'd see them all killed or enslaved, October 7th style, by their Arab neighbours if they magically laid down their arms and dissolved Israel.

Exactly.  October 7th should've shown to everyone what awaits the Jews if they even for a moment lose the ability to defend themselves militarily.  Thankfully they only lost the ability to defend themselves on a small part of Israel for a short period of time this time, but next time can be different.

Anyone who believes that the leopard changed his spots and Hamas is now about "social justice" as stated in their new charter is delusional.

[grumbler]

Your poll showed that 26 percent of them wanted a two state solution.  So you lied.  Good bye

What are you, twelve years old?  I observed that historically, Palestinians preferred the two-state solution as, for instance, this graph of historical polls shows.  I made no claims about the current figures, though noted that they had declined, relatively speaking, as the Israeli far right became more and more Israel's governing group.

You, however, did make claims about the current situation: "Yeah, the Palestinians want the whole enchilada.  Polls are pretty clear on that."  The very poll that you falsely used to accuse me of lying has the "polls are very clear" numbers on those wanting a Palestinian-only state ("the whole enchilada"): 23%   So you were definitely and unarguably lying about that. 

[grumbler]

I'm not sure the jews want to be "Khaybar"-safe under muslims though.

I am quite sure that they do not.  The issue in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, though, isn't whether Jews should be allowed a state, but rather, whether Palestinians should be allowed on.  It's patently obvious that Palestinians are not safe under Israeli colonial rule.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I see that there's reporting Israel doesn't really believe the Hamas political leaders they are "negotiating" various ceasefire proposals with in Qatar actually have any meaningful contact with the remaining Hamas military forces in Gaza, Isaac Herzog has suggested the Hamas elements in Qatar may be negotiating terms they can't actually deliver on.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Looks like Bibi has finally released his "after the war" plan for Gaza:

• Freedom of Activity by the IDF within the Gaza Strip.
• The Complete Disarmament and Demobilization of the Gaza Strip.
• Total Security Control by Israel over the West Bank.
• Partial/Total Closure of the Border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt.
• Establishment of a Security Zone between Southern Israel and the Gaza Strip.
• Creation of a De-Radicalization Program which will be implemented in all Palestinian Institutions.
• Removal of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency from the Palestinian Territories.
• The Rehabilitation of the Gaza Strip once Demilitarization is Complete and De-Radicalization has begun, with Funding only coming from Israeli-Approved Countries and Organizations.

My guess is the vast majority of these will not come to pass for a mixture of practical, political and diplomatic reasons--but I strongly suspect the IDF having some form of permanent military presence in Gaza is 100% the reality, and basically a fait accompli already. I don't see any version of domestic politics in Israel's near future that would sign off on the IDF agreeing to leave and stay out of the strip again, not after October 7th. That is likely true in spite of all the Eurocrying and South African tears in the world.

[Barrister]

Looks like Bibi has finally released his "after the war" plan for Gaza:

• Freedom of Activity by the IDF within the Gaza Strip.
• The Complete Disarmament and Demobilization of the Gaza Strip.
• Total Security Control by Israel over the West Bank.
• Partial/Total Closure of the Border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt.
• Establishment of a Security Zone between Southern Israel and the Gaza Strip.
• Creation of a De-Radicalization Program which will be implemented in all Palestinian Institutions.
• Removal of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency from the Palestinian Territories.
• The Rehabilitation of the Gaza Strip once Demilitarization is Complete and De-Radicalization has begun, with Funding only coming from Israeli-Approved Countries and Organizations.

My guess is the vast majority of these will not come to pass for a mixture of practical, political and diplomatic reasons--but I strongly suspect the IDF having some form of permanent military presence in Gaza is 100% the reality, and basically a fait accompli already. I don't see any version of domestic politics in Israel's near future that would sign off on the IDF agreeing to leave and stay out of the strip again, not after October 7th. That is likely true in spite of all the Eurocrying and South African tears in the world.

Okay, I hate to use the word, but...

that does sound like apartheid.