Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Parse the words themselves.

The saying is not "From the river to the sea, PALESTINIANS will be free".

No, they chant "From the river to the sea, PALESTINE will be free".

I trust you can see the distinction.

But in any event, I didn't so much want to debate those words.  I conceded some may have a less menacing and genocidal usage when they say those words.  You could have an interesting article on the phrase.

I more wanted to call attention to how badly one-sided that CBC article was.

1: Taking Palestine to mean Palestine the country as we know it today... Again just looking at the wording and ignoring the nutters usage of it- it doesn't necessarily mean Israel has to go. The West Bank is on the river as its defining feature, Gaza is on the sea, all of Palestine across this stretch should be free. Fine.

2: Taking Palestine to mean the region... I'd say a full democratic and peaceful Israel and a full democratic and peaceful Palestine within their current borders would tick the box of Palestine being free. Or if a one state solution is more your thing, a big united Palestine doesn't necessarily have to be one where Jews are forbidden. 

As to the article...its entire setup is clearly to present the other point of view to the dominant one that it's a safe assumption all readers will know and is quickly summed up in the opening and mentioned often throughout.

https://jewishstudies.washington.edu/israel-hebrew/why-israel-isnt-a-settler-colonial-state/

They claim it isn't a colonial state. But their evidence clearly shows its history is as one with the settlers themselves considering it colonialism.
The basis under which these guys claim it isn't is that it wasn't for the benefit of a metropole. Which seems a chronic misunderstanding of colonialist motivations.

Well, the text in your link says the early settlers thought of themselves as colonists, not as partaking in colonialism.

I concede the limited point that early settlers can fairly be called colonists.  Much like the Volga Germans for example.  They were organized, they presumably wanted a home in which they could maintain their culture and identity.

The problem then becomes your effortless pivot from that point to the crimes committed.  Traditional white colonists engaged in a number of crimes, well documented.  Just calling the Jewish settlers colonists doesn't make them guilty of those same crimes.

Israel as colonial says nothing about crimes.
Plenty of previous uninhabited islands were colonial without criminality being inherent.
Israel's continued illegal seizure of Palestinian lands is what is illegal, whatever Israel's history.

[Tamas]

Now that the long-demanded cease fire is a thing, Owen Jones moves quickly to point out the rage over israeli crimes should continue regardless: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/gaza-children-death-toll-israel-hamas


It's fascinating how his ilk can't even be bothered to make a cursory dishonest mention of the victims of Hamas.

[garbon]

Now that the long-demanded cease fire is a thing, Owen Jones moves quickly to point out the rage over israeli crimes should continue regardless: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/gaza-children-death-toll-israel-hamas


It's fascinating how his ilk can't even be bothered to make a cursory dishonest mention of the victims of Hamas.

It isn't worth giving him the time of day.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

It's because they're jewhaters. After all, our cities are being flooded with massive protests against the actual genocide happening in darfur... again! All those Muslims and lefties demanding an end to the fighting... oh wait, they don't give a shit cause no jews

[Gups]

Now that the long-demanded cease fire is a thing, Owen Jones moves quickly to point out the rage over israeli crimes should continue regardless: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/gaza-children-death-toll-israel-hamas


It's fascinating how his ilk can't even be bothered to make a cursory dishonest mention of the victims of Hamas.

It isn't worth giving him the time of day.

Yes. Please don't click on his articles. Every click encourages the Guardian to keep giving him column inches

[viper37]

Wait, why does Israel have women and children prisoners? These criminals, or just sweeped up?

So I have no precise knowledge other than to say that Hamas has never shied away from using women and children as suicide bombers.

Israel does not arrest only criminals.  It often arrests regular protestors along real criminals.


In 2012, Breaking the Silence, an organization founded by former Israeli soldiers whose purpose is to expose alleged abuses committed by the Israeli Defense Forces released a booklet of witness reports written by more than 30 former Israeli soldiers. These reports document of Palestinian children being beaten, intimidated, humiliated, verbally abused and injured by Israeli soldiers. Eran Efrati, a former IDF commander on the West Bank has said that ill-treatment of arrested children is routine. He himself admits to having arrested children aged 11 and over as though they were adults, with handcuffs and blindfolds:

'When the kid is sitting there in the base, I didn't do it, but nobody is thinking of him as a kid, you know—if there is someone blindfolded and handcuffed, he's probably done something really bad. It's OK to slap him, it's OK to spit on him, it's OK to kick him sometimes. It doesn't really matter.'^[67]

700 of the 9,000 Palestinians arrested in 2013 were children.^[67] An Israeli Defense Forces spokesperson said the Breaking the Silence group had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies for verification, and Danny Lamm, president of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, said these types of testimonies are "anonymous ... devoid of critical detail and untested by any kind of cross-questioning."^[68][69]
Between 2014 and 2015, the military prosecuted indictments against 1,046 Palestinian minors.^[70] The non-governmental organization, Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, Accuse the Israeli forces of orchestring "their actions" to "humiliate and terrorize Palestinian children".^[71]
Child detention
In September 2009, after documentation emerged showing Palestinians children as young as 12 were prosecuted in adult military courts, Israel established a juvenile military court, 'the first and only juvenile military court in operation in the world.' Military Order 1651 establishes a maximum 6 months sentence for children aged 12–13, and 12 months for juniors aged 14–15, unless the offence involves throwing stones at persons or property with the intent to damage, in which case 10 years imprisonment is the maximum penalty.^[72]
In one case, a 5-year-old child has been detailed on allegations he threw stones in Hebron. The IDF said that the boy had endangered passers-by and that soldiers only accompanied him to his parents. It stated that the child was not arrested and no charges were filed.^[73][74][75]
A separate study, conducted from 2005 until 2010 was released in mid-2011 by the Jerusalem-based non-profit B'Tselem, found that the actions of the IDF potentially violated the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Fourth Geneva Convention.^[76]
According to a March 2013 report by the United Nations Children's Fund ("UNICEF"), Israel has arrested some 7,000 Palestinian children; 18 of 27 arrested in Hebron in March 2013 were below the age of 12.^[51][77] The report was based on 400 cases documented since 2009. It stated that the Palestinian children who are detained by the Israeli military are subjected to "widespread, systematic and institutionalized" ill treatment in violation of international law. UNICEF estimated that in the West Bank IDF and Israeli security services annually arrest around 700 youths between 12 and 17 years old. The report supported claims that the arrests were often made, without notice, in private homes at night. It reports that children are blindfolded, painfully restrained, and subjected to physical and verbal abuse while being detained, sometimes in solitary confinement.
The report further claims that, once in detention, they are interrogated and coerced into confession, without immediate access to a legal counsel or family members.^[78] Signed confessions are typically typed in Hebrew, which few Palestinian minors can read. As of January 2013, Israeli military prisons held 233 males under 18, 31 under the age of 16.^[79] Additionally, children are shackled during court appearances and made to serve sentences in Israel. UNICEF stated these findings "amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention against Torture".^[78]
About 60 percent of arrested minors are charged with throwing rocks at soldiers or passing cars,^[79] which the IDF regards as a form of terrorism as it has led to the death and injury of Israelis, including of children.^[80]
The UNICEF report noted that Israel had made some positive changes over recent years, such as hand tying measures that do not cause pain or injury.^[78] It urged Israel to refrain from blindfolding minors and holding them in solitary confinement, to permit an attorney or family member to attend interrogations, and to record interrogations to document any false claims of abuse. Israel's Foreign Ministry said Israel's military was already making changes to cooperate with the United Nations, including reducing holding time before seeing a judge to 48 hours, telling parents about arrest of children, and informing children of their right to consult a lawyer. UNICEF replied that the changes were insufficiently specific.^[79] Israeli Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor stated that "Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect".^[78] In October 2013, UNICEF reported that the IDF was introducing changes in its arrest of minors in a pilot-test programme, but according to Haaretz the policy had not at that date been implemented and was still under study.^[81]
January 2015, Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor has issued a press release about Israeli detention of a Palestinian girl. The monitor said that Malak Al-Khatib, 14 year old-Palestinian girl, has been imprisoned by Israeli authorities for 22 consecutive days without contact with her parents, and has just been sentenced to serve another month along with a stiff fine on her parents. In addition, the monitor said that another four children as young as 11 were recently held for four hours under threat of detention and death. The Euro-Med Monitor has condemned Israel's policy of detaining children and subjecting them to abusive and inhumane treatment.<sup>[82]


There is also the question of Human shields used by... the IDF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

And obviously, there are child soldiers used by the various terrorist factions, and the children raised to be good terrorists later.</sup>

[viper37]

It's because they're jewhaters. After all, our cities are being flooded with massive protests against the actual genocide happening in darfur... again! All those Muslims and lefties demanding an end to the fighting... oh wait, they don't give a shit cause no jews

Nobody gives a shit about Africa.  Ever.

[crazy canuck]

I'm going to try engaging - don't make me regret it.

And I regretted it.

Snowflake

[Admiral Yi]

Israel as colonial says nothing about crimes.
Plenty of previous uninhabited islands were colonial without criminality being inherent.
Israel's continued illegal seizure of Palestinian lands is what is illegal, whatever Israel's history.

Okey dokey.

What, if anything, do you have to say to people who use colonial as an epithet, as an accusation in regards to Israel?

[Josquius]

Israel as colonial says nothing about crimes.
Plenty of previous uninhabited islands were colonial without criminality being inherent.
Israel's continued illegal seizure of Palestinian lands is what is illegal, whatever Israel's history.

Okey dokey.

What, if anything, do you have to say to people who use colonial as an epithet, as an accusation in regards to Israel?

It depends what they're speaking about really. If they're on about Israel's very existence then they're either far right islamic extremist types or tankies so its a good disclaimer they're probably not worth talking to.
If they're speaking about the West Bank et al and Israel's continued colonialism...then it is a marker they aren't afraid of upsetting the Israel lobby and there's a chance they're amongst those who know what they're talking about.
If they're just speaking purely about history then... "Yes".

[Josephus]

I wonder if the Palestinian prisoners being exchanged are like "no....keep us here until AFTER the war."

[Razgovory]

The Israel lobby.

75% of Palestinians want Israel gone.  This isn't some fringe belief.

[Josquius]

The Israel lobby.

75% of Palestinians want Israel gone.  This isn't some fringe belief.

 
Typical of someone who has fully swallowed that stuff to pick up solely on that bit.
And no. 75% of Palestinians have said nothing of the sort. Plus we aren't talking about Palestinians here.

[Barrister]

The Israel lobby.

75% of Palestinians want Israel gone.  This isn't some fringe belief.

 
Typical of someone who has fully swallowed that stuff to pick up solely on that bit.
And no. 75% of Palestinians have said nothing of the sort. Plus we aren't talking about Palestinians here.

You're right - it was only 74.7% of Palestinians.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war

[Tamas]

The Israel lobby.

75% of Palestinians want Israel gone.  This isn't some fringe belief.

 
Typical of someone who has fully swallowed that stuff to pick up solely on that bit.
And no. 75% of Palestinians have said nothing of the sort. Plus we aren't talking about Palestinians here.

You're right - it was only 74.7% of Palestinians.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war

To be fair where they live they run the risk of being Jihaded if they don't answer the properly Jihadic answer.