Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Josquius]

Except they weren't socialist at all. They saw privatising everything they could as desirable.
Perhaps he's drawing on the typical confusion given they inherited the  pre existing German social system

[Valmy]

Except they weren't socialist at all. They saw privatising everything they could as desirable.
Perhaps he's drawing on the typical confusion given they inherited the  pre existing German social system

He was not an anarcho-capitalist and thus a socialist. It is sort of a binary distinction.

Though, like many right wing populists at the time, he used a lot of socialist talking points to pull working class votes. Hell it is right there in the Nazis central branding. Socialism, but only for good Germans.

[Josquius]

A lot of that too was channeling Bismark and showing himself to be an arch Conservative in that tradition.
Bismark having introduced social reforms to counter socialists and having liberals smear him as a socialist for it... But trying to label the poster boy for conservatism as a socialist merely changed the connotations of socialist and he took on the state socialist label as a positive thing

[Razgovory]

Except they weren't socialist at all. They saw privatising everything they could as desirable.
Perhaps he's drawing on the typical confusion given they inherited the  pre existing German social system

He was not an anarcho-capitalist and thus a socialist. It is sort of a binary distinction.

Though, like many right wing populists at the time, he used a lot of socialist talking points to pull working class votes. Hell it is right there in the Nazis central branding. Socialism, but only for good Germans.

Yeah, I wonder if there are some parallels in the "Arab Socialist" movements.  Guys like Assad and Saddam.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't see what the fuss is about.  If socialism is defined as the provision of state services then yes Nazis were socialist.  There have been plenty of socialist states that were authoritarian.  Like all of Africa.  Social Democrats had the brilliant insight that you could have socialism and democracy at the same time.  That's the brand that deserves protecting.

[Josquius]

I don't see what the fuss is about.  If socialism is defined as the provision of state services then yes Nazis were socialist.  There have been plenty of socialist states that were authoritarian.  Like all of Africa.  Social Democrats had the brilliant insight that you could have socialism and democracy at the same time.  That's the brand that deserves protecting.

This isn't about not admitting socialist dictatorships can be a thing. There obviously were socialist dictatorships and the nazis weren't fans.
This is about facts about the nazis.
The nazis weren't socialist because they weren't socialist.

Their economic outlook was, surprisingly, fascist. Privatise state owned enterprises and setup incestuous relations with business elites.

There was socialism in the sense of state services in nazi Germany absolutely. But as said this was a hold over from before they came to power and they chipped away at it during their time there.

The nazis were absolutely far right. They basically define the far right. This is about people who are shooting way off to the right themselves not wanting to admit they're occupying the same space as the synonym of evil.

[Barrister]

I don't see what the fuss is about.  If socialism is defined as the provision of state services then yes Nazis were socialist.  There have been plenty of socialist states that were authoritarian.  Like all of Africa.  Social Democrats had the brilliant insight that you could have socialism and democracy at the same time.  That's the brand that deserves protecting.

This isn't about not admitting socialist dictatorships can be a thing. There obviously were socialist dictatorships and the nazis weren't fans.
This is about facts about the nazis.
The nazis weren't socialist because they weren't socialist.

Their economic outlook was, surprisingly, fascist. Privatise state owned enterprises and setup incestuous relations with business elites.

There was socialism in the sense of state services in nazi Germany absolutely. But as said this was a hold over from before they came to power and they chipped away at it during their time there.

The nazis were absolutely far right. They basically define the far right. This is about people who are shooting way off to the right themselves not wanting to admit they're occupying the same space as the synonym of evil.

Gotcha.  Far right = evil.  Nazis can't be socialists because socialists aren't evil.

[Josquius]

]

Gotcha.  Far right = evil.  Nazis can't be socialists because socialists aren't evil.

 

Is that seriously what you understood there? That's completely backwards.

[Sheilbh]

He was not an anarcho-capitalist and thus a socialist. It is sort of a binary distinction.

Although they're not the only options

Though, like many right wing populists at the time, he used a lot of socialist talking points to pull working class votes. Hell it is right there in the Nazis central branding. Socialism, but only for good Germans.

Socialism - as in the tradition of the left from which the SPD, the Labour Party, the KPD, the Bolsheviks descend - was not possible for good Germans. It was, to the Nazis, a Jewish ideology. I think it was more than just right wing populism. The racial element was core to Nazism - it's how capitalism that divides people on class and mixes them up racially was Jewish as was socialism (as in that left-wing tradition) of people allying on lines of class and across racial boundaries. I think to even try to separate out the - not just nationalist but racial - politics from the economic doesn't work with the Nazis.

I also think generally there is a bit of a decency point - the socialists of the SPD and the KPD were brutally repressed under the Nazis. Both those parties were the strongest opposition to the Nazis. And particularly the SPD, because they weren't following Stalin's line, acted with incredible bravery. They were in the Reichstag and voted against - and leaders spoke against - the Enabling Act. Much of their leadership ended up dead, many even regular members ended up in concentration camps. I think there is something indecent in tarring that political tradition as somehow connected to their persecutors.

There are plenty of crimes that the broad socialist tradition from Marx on can be associated with, without needing to bring in the Nazis who destroyed the greatest socialist party and tradition in the world.

[crazy canuck]

He was not an anarcho-capitalist and thus a socialist. It is sort of a binary distinction.

Although they're not the only options

Though, like many right wing populists at the time, he used a lot of socialist talking points to pull working class votes. Hell it is right there in the Nazis central branding. Socialism, but only for good Germans.

Socialism - as in the tradition of the left from which the SPD, the Labour Party, the KPD, the Bolsheviks descend - was not possible for good Germans. It was, to the Nazis, a Jewish ideology. I think it was more than just right wing populism. The racial element was core to Nazism - it's how capitalism that divides people on class and mixes them up racially was Jewish as was socialism (as in that left-wing tradition) of people allying on lines of class and across racial boundaries. I think to even try to separate out the - not just nationalist but racial - politics from the economic doesn't work with the Nazis.

I also think generally there is a bit of a decency point - the socialists of the SPD and the KPD were brutally repressed under the Nazis. Both those parties were the strongest opposition to the Nazis. And particularly the SPD, because they weren't following Stalin's line, acted with incredible bravery. They were in the Reichstag and voted against - and leaders spoke against - the Enabling Act. Much of their leadership ended up dead, many even regular members ended up in concentration camps. I think there is something indecent in tarring that political tradition as somehow connected to their persecutors.

There are plenty of crimes that the broad socialist tradition from Marx on can be associated with, without needing to bring in the Nazis who destroyed the greatest socialist party and tradition in the world.

Yeah, this is another example of how words are losing their meaning.  If the Nazis were socialists then socialist has a new meaning or rather no meaning.

[Zanza]

There were some more "socialist" people in the NSDAP early on, but they were all purged, latest after the Röhmputsch in 1934. Hitler himself was certainly not a socialist and Nazi policy was not either. Fighting communists and socialists domestically and later the Soviets was part of the core tenets of the Nazi ideology.

Yeah, this is another example of how words are losing their meaning.  If the Nazis were socialists then socialist has a new meaning or rather no meaning.

That's actually what the NSDAP did: Take a popular term, adopt it, but make it meaningless. They did that deliberately.

Hundred years later and people like Musk still fall for it, so their deliberate obfuscation was very successful.

[Grey Fox]

Elon Musk maternal grandfather, JN Haldeman did not fight in WWII.

His paternal grandfather, WHJ Musk, did.

Quite surprised that Elmo wasn't lying here.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't see what the fuss is about.  If socialism is defined as the provision of state services

That's a bit broad - under that definition pretty much every functioning regime was socialist: from Bronze Age Egypt to the Roman Empire to Wilhelmine Germany to Eisenhower Era 1950s America.

[grumbler]

His paternal grandfather, WHJ Musk, did.

On which side?

[HVC]

I don't see what the fuss is about.  If socialism is defined as the provision of state services

That's a bit broad - under that definition pretty much every functioning regime was socialist: from Bronze Age Egypt to the Roman Empire to Wilhelmine Germany to Eisenhower Era 1950s America.

Rome: come for the circus, stay for the bread.