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#71

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Razgovory - April 26, 2024, 11:04:09 AM

Part of me says I smell more of the Unbiased Katie sorts.
But it could also be a self aware but largely genuinely felt joke that helps earn a few dollars and builds publicity.

Probably neither as the first one hold opinions of Jews roughly the same as Palestinians.

[(though I have less sympathy for someone trying to provoke something to generate content)]

#72

Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...

Last post by Tamas - April 26, 2024, 10:53:52 AM

And I think the role of the police is slightly difficult with protests and it is about balancing rights. It is absolutely right that people are able to protest on Palestine and the police protect that right; it would also be absolutely right for there to be counter-protesters and it would be for the police to place those groups in different areas to make sure that it doesn't escalate. That's not what's happened but, similarly, while people have a right to protest other people have a right to go about their lives doing what they want to do (though I have less sympathy for someone trying to provoke something to generate content) - and I think the police need to support that as long as it's not disruptive or likely to cause a risk to public order.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of protest? Most protests, at least?

More importantly, in this case, the very point of the Jewish guy's counter-protest was to test whether the crowd can tolerate a Jewish person in their ranks. Of course he and his fellows would had filmed it if something happened, what's the point of being abused/beaten up to prove a point if you can't prove it?

#73

Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...

Last post by Josquius - April 26, 2024, 10:48:04 AM

On policing interesting IFS paper flagged by John Burn-Murdoch, which feels like a useful example of 90% of policy in the UK in the last 15 years.

As part of austerity 70% of police stations in London were closed. This was also part of Cressida Dick's move to a more "US-style" policing of police in cars and vans responding.

Anyway the paper shows that violent and serious crime increased in areas near the closed stations, there were lower deterrence and clearance rates (the two things the police are supposed to do) and reduced reporting of non-violent crimes. This disproportionately affected the poor.

In addition, the policy provided a short term cost-saving from closing stations. But in order to fix the problems above (and just get back to where you were before the closures) they estimate you'd need to hire about 15-20,000 more police which would be significantly more expensive.

It's long Osborne. Cut the easy spending, only to cause negative consequences that will be far more expensive to fix than the initial saving.

And when its another party in government's problem/can be blamed on local government

#74

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Josquius - April 26, 2024, 10:46:49 AM

Part of me says I smell more of the Unbiased Katie sorts.
But it could also be a self aware but largely genuinely felt joke that helps earn a few dollars and builds publicity.

#75

Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...

Last post by Sheilbh - April 26, 2024, 10:43:44 AM

On policing interesting IFS paper flagged by John Burn-Murdoch, which feels like a useful example of 90% of policy in the UK in the last 15 years.

As part of austerity 70% of police stations in London were closed. This was also part of Cressida Dick's move to a more "US-style" policing of police in cars and vans responding.

Anyway the paper shows that violent and serious crime increased in areas near the closed stations, there were lower deterrence and clearance rates (the two things the police are supposed to do) and reduced reporting of non-violent crimes. This disproportionately affected the poor.

In addition, the policy provided a short term cost-saving from closing stations. But in order to fix the problems above (and just get back to where you were before the closures) they estimate you'd need to hire about 15-20,000 more police which would be significantly more expensive.

It's long Osborne. Cut the easy spending, only to cause negative consequences that will be far more expensive to fix than the initial saving.

#76

Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic

Last post by Josquius - April 26, 2024, 10:43:21 AM

I wish the conspiracy corners of the internet were still harmless as I'd love to know what they're saying on this.

#77

Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...

Last post by Josquius - April 26, 2024, 10:36:55 AM

If the Jewish guy wasn't holding such a sign then your comment makes no sense. Did he hold such a sign or didn't he?

Don't play Raz.

OK then. Forget the sign. The black guy (lets assume he's 100% non-Jewish in any way) is wearing a kippah. 
Do you think he wouldn't be stopped?

Their problem with the guy was that he was 'openly Jewish', not the color of his skin. If a non-Jew dressed up as a Jew the police stopping him for being 'openly Jewish' or not would I think be decided by how convincingly it was done. I don't think they would tell a guy with a kippah who they don't think is actually Jewish that he was 'openly Jewish', they may in that case think instead that it's some kind of "blackface" situation, which may or may not make them stop him for that. My guess is that the police would be less likely to consider Jewish a guy who looks say East Asian or Black, nevermind that Jews come in all colors.

If the cop thought the guy clearly wasn't Jewish (lets say he thinks black Jews are impossible) but was dressed that way I'd think his reaction would be even stronger- it'd make for far more of a case that he was just there to antagonise and stir trouble rather than the claims of the actual guy that he was just going about his regular business (which he wasn't).

#78

Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...

Last post by Sheilbh - April 26, 2024, 10:16:55 AM

The Guardian felt necessary to explain what appears to be the dubious political motivations behind the organisation doing the "you are too visibly Jewish with that kippa" thing at one of the so-called Pro-Palestinian marches:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/apr/26/who-is-the-caa-gideon-falter-met-police-openly-jewish-antisemitism-row

More importantly they felt that by giving more context via the longer-length video to the incident with the police officer, they shed a different light on it:

A longer version of the clip released later shows the officer explaining to Falter that his approach was informed by the knowledge he had already deliberately walked out into the middle of the march and was therefore "looking to try and antagonise this".

John Mann, the government's antisemitism tsar, said Falter had been "quite explicit" about his intentions at the protest. "There's no ambiguity in what he's doing," he told the BBC, saying he had been blocked by the CAA on the social media platform X and they were "not playing it straight".

Well, excuse me, sure he was trying to provoke a negative response to his Jewish identity but if he managed to do that, that would have revealed the true nature of the protest. If it was a "pro-Palestine" and not, in fact, an anti-Jewish march, then a Jewish man among the protesters -even without some protest sign making clear the side he is on- surely would had provoked no incident?

What has been revealed, as the bare minimum, is that the authorities considered that an anti-semitic march. Whether they were right or wrong they did not give that guy a chance to find out.

I've ended up with a painfully nuanced take on this have seen the videos emerge over tie and so on.

It's absolutely unacceptable to use the phrase "openly Jewish" and the police need to act on. Also we need (not just the police, but society at large) to make far more of the fact that being Jewish is never a provocation. It has always been a disgrace (though not unique to the UK in Europe) that Jewish places of worship, schools and cultural centres require extra police protection.

At the same time, I think in the longer video the police officer's broad position is actually right. This guy is filming content and wants to walk through (and against) the march in order to cross the road - or more accurately he wants to provoke a response to create content (and would then rely on the police to get involved). As the police officer points out he's seen him do it several times so the argument that he just wants to "cross the road" is disingenuous, he wants to generate content. The police officer also pointed that if he wanted to cross the road, then there was a police crossing point for pedestrians just 100 metres up the road and the police officer offered to walk him there.

And I think the role of the police is slightly difficult with protests and it is about balancing rights. It is absolutely right that people are able to protest on Palestine and the police protect that right; it would also be absolutely right for there to be counter-protesters and it would be for the police to place those groups in different areas to make sure that it doesn't escalate. That's not what's happened but, similarly, while people have a right to protest other people have a right to go about their lives doing what they want to do (though I have less sympathy for someone trying to provoke something to generate content) - and I think the police need to support that as long as it's not disruptive or likely to cause a risk to public order.

I think broadly the Met have actually got the balance right. The protests are happening, there are incidents of anti-semitism or criminal extremism on display, but instead of wading into a protest of 100,000+ to arrest those people the police are letting the protest carry on and then arresting them in the subsequent week. Similarly I think the police officer in this instance broadly got it right.

Having said all that I think it is a challenge for the protests in general. I said this right at the start that there were slogans and groups involved that were anti-semitic or perceived as anti-semitic and that was unacceptable. I think it is broadly groups, but I think it is very problematic the extent to which some of these slogans and lines, like "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" have entered the mainstream. I think it is difficult to talk, as some on the left do about these wonderful, peaceful open tolerant protests if ultimately the police are having to make calls about what might cause disorder. And ultimately it's not for the police to maintain firewalls against unacceptable extremists in protests movements or political parties - that's on them.

I still think there has been a weird inconsistency with the policing of protest and crowds by the Met - but, in general, I think they're getting this right in striking the balance between allowing the right to protest, preventing public disorder/things degenerating and also arresting people committing crimes on these marches (but after the march).

#79

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Razgovory - April 26, 2024, 09:55:57 AM

Okay, that is too much.

#80

Off the Record / Re: What does a TRUMP presiden...

Last post by The Minsky Moment - April 26, 2024, 09:25:54 AM

"We are writing a rule for the ages." -- Neil Gorsuch

That one line encapsulates everything that has wrong with the Supreme Court, and how much the judicial right has betrayed its own supposed conservative principles.