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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:27:47 PM

Title: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:27:47 PM
I'm starting a thread to post assorted China bits in for those who may be interested.

The current topic is obviously the Diaoyu - Senkaku conflict.

Some observers suggest that the nationalist demonstrations are deliberately over-reported:

QuoteIt is significant that the numbers of protesters, by Chinese standards, are small. Crowds are in the hundreds, rarely over a thousand. By contrast the crowd at the pro-democracy demonstrations at Tiananmen in 1989 reached a million at its peak. There is no doubt which cause had the deeper appeal. Today, too, measured in numbers, the complaints of Chinese protesters are overwhelmingly not about uninhabited islands but about things closer to home—corruption, pollution, land annexation, special privilege, and abuse of power—and the usual adversaries today are not Japan but Chinese officials and the wealthy people associated with them. The Chinese police handle, on average, two hundred or more "mass incidents"—meaning demonstrations, riots, road-blockages, and the like—every day. This kind of protest is perennial but not well reported. The anti-Japan protests are highly unusual but assiduously reported.

More here:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/sep/20/beijings-dangerous-game/ (http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/sep/20/beijings-dangerous-game/)
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2012/09/the-dangerous-game-of-protesting-in-china/ (http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2012/09/the-dangerous-game-of-protesting-in-china/)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:29:42 PM
Meanwhile, a current rumour is that the Maoist tenor of some of the nationalist demonstrations is an attempt by pro-Bo Xilai left-wingers to apply pressure to save or reinstate him.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspace.wenxuecity.com%2F_gallery%2F201209%2Fnews%2Fd4bed9d5b8df11c34e951e.jpg&hash=4fe6030e64d675d8f6e50748e0cc910c02802551)

Source (in Chinese): http://space.wenxuecity.com/_gallery/201209/news/d4bed9d5b8df11c34e951e.jpg
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:32:08 PM
Yes and it's telling that a serious dispute at the Foxconn factory, reported only as a brawl, actually involved several thousand workers, protesting at the company's security guards beating fellow workers. 

Labour disputes, working conditions, rights to worker association, seem far more important and on the minds of many Chinese rather than these nationalistic driven tensions.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:35:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:32:08 PMLabour disputes, working conditions, rights to worker association, seem far more important and on the minds of many Chinese rather than these nationalistic driven tensions.

Yes.

There are demonstrations and disturbances larger than these nationalist ones pretty much every day that are not reported.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:43:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:35:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:32:08 PMLabour disputes, working conditions, rights to worker association, seem far more important and on the minds of many Chinese rather than these nationalistic driven tensions.

Yes.

There are demonstrations and disturbances larger than these nationalist ones pretty much every day that are not reported.

Indeed, I wish I understood more about China, as in some ways it's the biggest story going on in the world, whether it be urbanization, construction, the rise of new mega-corporations.
My old history teacher as something of a sinologist, he wrote a school textbook on the subject, I imagine he'd be fascinated by it all.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:46:46 PM
What Chinese People Own - a photo project: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2012, 05:56:26 PM
Adopting a traditional Marxist analysis and looking at the material underpinnings:

It's no secret that China's GDP growth has slowed significantly, and there are serious questions about the ability of the government to push growth back up using traditional measures - i.e. increasing investment rates by having local and provincial governments and their parastatal arms dump money on infrastructure and development projects.  China is also well underway with a demographic transition and that is already manifesting itself in significant labor cost increases.  One keeps seeing reports about pessism among business insiders and objectively that is borne out by the continuing poor performance of the Shanghai exchange which is still way off its 2008 peaks and in fact continues to drift downwards.

The Party's legitimacy is almost entirely based at this point on its ability to deliver material prosperity and thus doubts about the sustainability of economic growth are a direct threat to its power.  It's only other claim to legitimacy is its historical role in unifying the country and its current role as a defender of national interest.  Hypothetically, a Left "opposition" faction thus would logically seek to exploit a tempest in a teapot like Diayou to mobilize support and push the Party into a more hardline position, and that indeed seems to happening.  But I use the scare quotes and the hypothetical formulation because Maoist iconography notwithstanding, its not clear that the factions within the Party have any clear programmatic agenda other than promoting their own careers and the interests of their proteges and clients.  Looks to me like there is a thin but powerful elite contending among each other for the spoils of power and that contest has spilled over into the public arena, with consequences that may be entirely unpredictable to the participants.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2012, 06:00:55 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:43:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:35:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:32:08 PMLabour disputes, working conditions, rights to worker association, seem far more important and on the minds of many Chinese rather than these nationalistic driven tensions.

Yes.

There are demonstrations and disturbances larger than these nationalist ones pretty much every day that are not reported.

Indeed, I wish I understood more about China, as in some ways it's the biggest story going on in the world, whether it be urbanization, construction, the rise of new mega-corporations.
My old history teacher as something of a sinologist, he wrote a school textbook on the subject, I imagine he'd be fascinated by it all.

Caixin - China Economics & Finance publishes every month in English.  Costs $1.25 per month to receive via Kindle; there are print options as well (but more expensive).  Recommended.

See website here to get an idea: http://english.caixin.com/
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2012, 05:56:26 PM

The Party's legitimacy is almost entirely based at this point on its ability to deliver material prosperity and thus doubts about the sustainability of economic growth are a direct threat to its power.  It's only other claim to legitimacy is its historical role in unifying the country and its current role as a defender of national interest.  Hypothetically, a Left "opposition" faction thus would logically seek to exploit a tempest in a teapot like Diayou to mobilize support and push the Party into a more hardline position, and that indeed seems to happening. 
I may be misunderstanding your terminology, but manipulating nationalist claims in order to gain influence seems a historically right wing phenomena. Wouldn't a left opposition faction tap into the labor discontent?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 06:24:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2012, 06:03:42 PMI may be misunderstanding your terminology, but manipulating nationalist claims in order to gain influence seems a historically right wing phenomena. Wouldn't a left opposition faction tap into the labor discontent?

Hard left in this context means Maoist and old-school Communist, if not in actual policies then at least in aesthetics and populist language.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on September 24, 2012, 06:56:31 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 24, 2012, 06:00:55 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:43:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 24, 2012, 05:35:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 24, 2012, 05:32:08 PMLabour disputes, working conditions, rights to worker association, seem far more important and on the minds of many Chinese rather than these nationalistic driven tensions.

Yes.

There are demonstrations and disturbances larger than these nationalist ones pretty much every day that are not reported.

Indeed, I wish I understood more about China, as in some ways it's the biggest story going on in the world, whether it be urbanization, construction, the rise of new mega-corporations.
My old history teacher as something of a sinologist, he wrote a school textbook on the subject, I imagine he'd be fascinated by it all.

Caixin - China Economics & Finance publishes every month in English.  Costs $1.25 per month to receive via Kindle; there are print options as well (but more expensive).  Recommended.

See website here to get an idea: http://english.caixin.com/

:cheers:

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on September 24, 2012, 06:58:33 PM
In addition to Jacob's point, there's a huge history of often populist, posing left-wing nationalism. Subjects like labour disputes are more troublesome because they operate out of authorised and controlled channels. Labour disputes and the like have a history of leading to independent demands and organisations which are a challenge to an elite struggling for power in a corporatist state.

As Jacob said such politics is as often aesthetic as anything else.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on September 25, 2012, 06:07:31 AM
If I were one of the laobaixing, I would be deeply dissatisfied with the status quo.  China's property depends on no small measure on a massive quasi-slave underclass, working at wages barely above subsistence level, whilst signs of prosperity and even opulence abound everywhere...but the creature comforts of even a moderately comfortable life are utterly out of reach.

Unfortunately, there are few healthy mechanisms to channel those grievances into moderate, gradual reforms.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on September 25, 2012, 06:30:49 AM
I don't know. I hear there's an increasingly large amount of power going to the commoners. These days they can pick and choose which job to take and factories have to be really competitive on offering ever better wages to try and attract workers.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Martim Silva on September 25, 2012, 10:34:49 AM
In the meanwhile, Taiwan has decided to jump into the fray:

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-trades-words-china-water-taiwan-133522693--finance.html;_ylt=A2KLOzErzWFQtCAAZaDQtDMD

Japanese and Taiwanese ships shot water cannon at each other Tuesday in the latest confrontation over tiny islands in the East China Sea, as Japan met with another rival, China, in an effort to tamp down tensions.

About 40 Taiwanese fishing boats and 12 patrol boats entered waters near the islands on Tuesday morning, briefly triggering an exchange of water cannon fire with Japanese coast guard ships. Coast guard officials said the Taiwanese vessels had ignored warnings to get out of their territory, and the Taiwanese ships pulled back after being fired upon. (...)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 25, 2012, 10:43:16 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 25, 2012, 10:34:49 AM
Japanese and Taiwanese ships shot water cannon at each other Tuesday

Gay sailor wet t-shirt contests.  Super.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Kleves on September 25, 2012, 02:54:08 PM
China has launched its first aricraft carrier:  :o. Fortunately, it appears to be useless.
QuoteBEIJING — In a ceremony attended by the country's top leaders, China put its first aircraft carrier into service on Tuesday, a move intended to signal its growing military might as tensions escalate between Beijing and its neighbors over islands in nearby seas.

Officials said the carrier, a discarded vessel bought from Ukraine in 1998 and refurbished by China, would protect national sovereignty, an issue that has become a touchstone of the government's dispute with Japan over ownership of islands in the East China Sea.

But despite the triumphant tone of the launch, which was watched by President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, and despite rousing assessments by Chinese military experts about the importance of the carrier, the vessel will be used only for training and testing for the foreseeable future.

The mark "16" emblazoned on the carrier's side indicates that it is limited to training, Chinese and other military experts said. China does not have planes capable of landing on the carrier and so far training for such landings has been carried out on land, they said.

Even so, the public appearance of the carrier at the northeastern port of Dalian was used as an occasion to stir patriotic feelings, which have run at fever pitch in the last 10 days over the dispute between China and Japan over the East China Sea islands, called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China.

The carrier will "raise the overall operational strength of the Chinese Navy" and help China "to effectively protect national sovereignty, security and development interests," the Ministry of Defense said.

The Communist Party congress that will begin the country's once-in-a-decade leadership transition is expected to be held next month, and the public unveiling of the carrier appeared to be part of an effort to forge national unity ahead of the event.

For international purposes, the public unveiling of the carrier seemed intended to signal to smaller nations in the South China Sea, including the Philippines, an American ally, that China has an increasing number of impressive assets to deploy.

American military planners have played down the significance of the commissioning of the carrier. Some Navy officials have even said they would encourage China to move ahead with building its own aircraft carrier and the ships to accompany it, because it would be a waste of money.

Other military experts outside China have agreed with that assessment.

"The fact is the aircraft carrier is useless for the Chinese Navy," You Ji, a visiting senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, said in an interview. "If it is used against America, it has no survivability. If it is used against China's neighbors, it's a sign of bullying."

Vietnam, a neighbor with whom China has fought wars, operates land-based Russian Su-30 aircraft that could pose a threat to the aircraft carrier, Mr. You said. "In the South China Sea, if the carrier is damaged by the Vietnamese, it's a huge loss of face," he said. "It's not worth it."

Up to now, Chinese pilots have been limited to practicing simulated carrier landings on concrete strips on land in Chinese J-8 aircraft based on Soviet-made MiG-23s produced about 25 years ago, Mr. You said. The pilots could not undertake the difficult maneuver of landing on a moving carrier because China does not yet have suitable aircraft, Mr. You said.

The question of whether China will move ahead and build its own carrier depends in large part, he said, on whether China can develop aircraft to land on one. "It's a long, long process for constructing such aircraft," he said.

In contrast to some of the skepticism expressed by military experts outside China, Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute, said in an interview in the state-run People's Daily that the carrier would change the Chinese Navy's traditional mind-set and bring qualitative changes to its operational style and structure, he said.

Although the Chinese military does not publish a breakdown of its military spending, foreign military experts say the navy is less well financed than the army and air force.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 03:03:10 PM
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 25, 2012, 10:34:49 AM
In the meanwhile, Taiwan has decided to jump into the fray:

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-trades-words-china-water-taiwan-133522693--finance.html;_ylt=A2KLOzErzWFQtCAAZaDQtDMD

Japanese and Taiwanese ships shot water cannon at each other Tuesday in the latest confrontation over tiny islands in the East China Sea, as Japan met with another rival, China, in an effort to tamp down tensions.

About 40 Taiwanese fishing boats and 12 patrol boats entered waters near the islands on Tuesday morning, briefly triggering an exchange of water cannon fire with Japanese coast guard ships. Coast guard officials said the Taiwanese vessels had ignored warnings to get out of their territory, and the Taiwanese ships pulled back after being fired upon. (...)


That seems to be an ineffective means of combat.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 25, 2012, 03:20:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 03:03:10 PMThat seems to be an ineffective means of combat.

I dunno, seems pretty effective to me. Both parties get to mark their claim to the territories while minimizing the risk of accidentally killing nationals from the other side and seriously harming their relationship.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 03:41:35 PM
They already marked their claim.  You can do that with just pen and a map.  Shooting at each other with water hoses means they'll be back next week doing the same thing, week after week.  Until someone shows up with a real cannon.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 25, 2012, 04:14:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 03:41:35 PM
They already marked their claim.  You can do that with just pen and a map.  Shooting at each other with water hoses means they'll be back next week doing the same thing, week after week.  Until someone shows up with a real cannon.

That's not how it works Raz, a pen and a map is not enough.

You have to physically patrol the territory to maintain the claim.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 25, 2012, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: Kleves on September 25, 2012, 02:54:08 PM
China has launched its first aricraft carrier:  :o. Fortunately, it appears to be useless.

So they're 70 years behind the US and Japan? :yeah:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 25, 2012, 04:14:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 03:41:35 PM
They already marked their claim.  You can do that with just pen and a map.  Shooting at each other with water hoses means they'll be back next week doing the same thing, week after week.  Until someone shows up with a real cannon.

That's not how it works Raz, a pen and a map is not enough.

You have to physically patrol the territory to maintain the claim.

With big squirt guns?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on September 25, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
A look at part of China's material culture:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on September 25, 2012, 06:53:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 25, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
A look at part of China's material culture:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095)

Weak. My stash is larger. My tp supply is worth double of their inferior electronics.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 25, 2012, 06:53:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 25, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
A look at part of China's material culture:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095)

:lol:

:huh: ... you do know that I posted that already, right?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on September 25, 2012, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 25, 2012, 06:53:37 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 25, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
A look at part of China's material culture:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19648095)

:lol:

:huh: ... you do know that I posted that already, right?

:blush:

Info overload, I click on so many links a day, I forget I've already seen it. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: BVN on September 26, 2012, 02:26:46 AM
The title of the article says it all...  :x

http://www.infowars.com/man-crushed-by-road-flattening-truck-on-orders-of-chinese-officials/ (http://www.infowars.com/man-crushed-by-road-flattening-truck-on-orders-of-chinese-officials/)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 26, 2012, 02:45:54 PM
Here's your chance for US$65million: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19733003
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/tycoon-offers-63-million-to-any-man-who-marries-lesbian-daughter/article4569747/?service=mobile

All you have to do is woo the woman in this picture and marry her:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeta.images.theglobeandmail.com%2F633%2Flife%2Fthe-hot-button%2Farticle4569746.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fw620%2Fchao.jpeg&hash=91bcdd1be74cd4b611c6698b954c68dd62a555fa)

If you do, the man in the picture - her father - will pay you the bounty.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 26, 2012, 03:06:22 PM
Malthus told me that one was the daughter's wife. I should have known better than to trust a lawyer.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Malthus on September 26, 2012, 03:08:54 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 26, 2012, 03:06:22 PM
Malthus told me that one was the wife. I should have known better than to trust a lawyer.

Hey, I was mislead by inept photo labelling.  :(

Evidently the challenge is this: to convince her you are a woman, while convincing him you are a man.

Sounds like the premise of a short-lived sitcom.  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on September 26, 2012, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 25, 2012, 10:34:49 AM
In the meanwhile, Taiwan has decided to jump into the fray:

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-trades-words-china-water-taiwan-133522693--finance.html;_ylt=A2KLOzErzWFQtCAAZaDQtDMD

Japanese and Taiwanese ships shot water cannon at each other Tuesday in the latest confrontation over tiny islands in the East China Sea, as Japan met with another rival, China, in an effort to tamp down tensions.

About 40 Taiwanese fishing boats and 12 patrol boats entered waters near the islands on Tuesday morning, briefly triggering an exchange of water cannon fire with Japanese coast guard ships. Coast guard officials said the Taiwanese vessels had ignored warnings to get out of their territory, and the Taiwanese ships pulled back after being fired upon. (...)


Taiwan has always been a claimant.  In fact, both Taiwan and Mainland China agree that the islands belong to Taiwan.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on September 27, 2012, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: BVN on September 26, 2012, 02:26:46 AM
The title of the article says it all...  :x

http://www.infowars.com/man-crushed-by-road-flattening-truck-on-orders-of-chinese-officials/ (http://www.infowars.com/man-crushed-by-road-flattening-truck-on-orders-of-chinese-officials/)

If this is a valid story, that guy earnes the posthumous Arthur P. Dent Memorial Plaque.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 28, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Bo Xilai to face criminal charges: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19755035

This puts a pretty serious obstacle in the path of any comeback.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on September 28, 2012, 05:48:13 PM
He definitely crossed the wrong commissar.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2012, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Bo Xilai to face criminal charges: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19755035

This puts a pretty serious obstacle in the path of any comeback.

What's worse: criminal charges, or purged from the Party?  Both are practically a death sentence.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on September 28, 2012, 07:04:05 PM
True, but it's hard to feel sorry for some communist asshole.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2012, 07:18:52 PM
QuoteUS blocks Chinese firm's investment in wind farms
California wind farm, file picture A foreign business deal has not been blocked in the US since 1990

President Barack Obama has stopped a Chinese company from building wind turbines in the US state of Oregon, citing national security concerns, his administration said.

Ralls Corp, a private Chinese firm, had acquired four wind farm projects near a US naval facility earlier this year.

This is the first foreign investment to be blocked in the US for 22 years.

It comes as the US lodged a trade dispute against China just weeks ahead of November's presidential election.

The move forces Ralls Corp to divest its stake in the projects, which were located near restricted airspace used by the military base.

The president's order came after an investigation into the wind farms by the US Committee on Foreign Investments (CFIUS) said there was no way to mitigate the national security risks posed by the Chinese company's plans.

The White House order said: "There is credible evidence that leads me to believe that Ralls Corporation... might take action that threatens to impair the national security of the United States."

The order also targeted Sany Group, the company that makes the turbine generators.

The military has said it uses the Oregon base to test unmanned drones and other equipment for electronic warfare. The aircraft fly as low as 200ft (60m) at speeds of as much as 300mph (500km/h).

Correspondents say the development could disgruntle China, whose trade advantage over the US has become a focus of Mr Obama's battle for re-election against Republican contender Mitt Romney.

Mr Romney has repeatedly accused the president of being too lenient with what he has called China's unfair trade practices.

Earlier this week, the Romney campaign released a video claiming that China is stealing American ideas and jobs, and accusing Mr Obama of doing little to stop it.

Mr Romney has said that on his first day in office he would use an executive order to label Beijing a currency manipulator.

The Obama campaign has in turn claimed that Mr Romney outsourced jobs to China during his time as a private equity chief.

Meanwhile, on the campaign trail, Mr Obama has highlighted his record with China, reminding voters that he filed more trade cases against Beijing in one administration than his predecessor, George W Bush, did in two terms.

This month, the Obama administration filed a complaint with the World Trade Organization against Chinese subsidies for its car industry.

The Obama campaign has also criticised Mr Romney for investing in Chinese firms.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on September 28, 2012, 07:35:57 PM
QuoteCorrespondents say the development could disgruntle China,

They'll get over it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on September 28, 2012, 07:44:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2012, 06:35:51 PMWhat's worse: criminal charges, or purged from the Party?  Both are practically a death sentence.

As I understand it, the purge from the party is a prerequisite for the criminal charges.

So the purge is probably worse, because if he wasn't purged he wouldn't face the charges.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on September 28, 2012, 08:11:32 PM
Who cares if China owns stake in wind farms?  What's the point of shutting down the deal?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2012, 08:15:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2012, 08:11:32 PM
Who cares if China owns stake in wind farms?  What's the point of shutting down the deal?

No Chinks or anybody else foreign allowed anywhere near a US naval facility.

Keeping them as far away from possible from the power grid is just a bonus.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on September 28, 2012, 08:23:52 PM
They already have all your military secrets, courtesy of traitorous Israel.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2012, 08:26:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2012, 08:23:52 PM
They already have all your military secrets, courtesy of traitorous Israel.

Let's just pretend there's some they don't have, mmmkay?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 28, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 28, 2012, 07:35:57 PM
QuoteCorrespondents say the development could disgruntle China,

They'll get over it.

Hopefully some smooth-talking diplomat will gruntle them right back.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on September 28, 2012, 08:29:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2012, 08:26:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2012, 08:23:52 PM
They already have all your military secrets, courtesy of traitorous Israel.

Let's just pretend there's some they don't have, mmmkay?
And that's why Israel is running Operation Siegebreaker.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 28, 2012, 08:45:12 PM
Siege can't be a spy, he'd be passing out state secrets after two beers.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on September 29, 2012, 07:02:42 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 28, 2012, 08:45:12 PM
Siege can't be a spy, he'd be passing out state secrets after two beers.

Difficult to do that after passing out yourself first.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Grey Fox on September 30, 2012, 01:27:11 PM
What I don't understand is what is the Israel end game of selling secrets to China. What's the advantage?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on September 30, 2012, 01:47:26 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 30, 2012, 01:27:11 PM
What I don't understand is what is the Israel end game of selling secrets to China. What's the advantage?

:blink: Jews. Money. Ring a bell?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2012, 09:42:41 AM
The company (Ralls) responded by filing a law suit against Obama, which if nothing else demonstrates that they are doing everything they can to make themselves seem like regular Americans.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on October 01, 2012, 09:46:16 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 29, 2012, 07:02:42 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 28, 2012, 08:45:12 PM
Siege can't be a spy, he'd be passing out state secrets after two beers.

Difficult to do that after passing out yourself first.
:XD:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 01, 2012, 10:42:37 PM
Imagine that.

QuoteEnergy-Grid Company Hit by Apparent Chinese Hackers
26 September 2012 | 01:34 PM ET | by Ben Weitzenkorn, SecurityNewsDaily Staff Writer

A company that provides industrial automation technology to agencies overseeing the energy industry said its systems have been the target of an elaborate cyberattack, affecting its operations in North America and Spain.

Experts have linked clues left by the hackers to a Chinese group with a history of spying on and hacking into important Western infrastructure systems and databases.

Telvent Canada sent letters to its customers to inform them that hackers had installed malware and taken proprietary files related to key supervisory control and data acquisition (SCADA) systems used in "smart grid" technology, security journalist Brian Krebs reported.

"We do not have any reason to believe that the intruder(s) acquired any information that would enable them to gain access to a customer system or that any of the compromised computers have been connected to a customer system," the letter said.

The company added that, as a safety measure, it had "indefinitely terminated any customer system access by Telvent."

[Chinese Military Admits Cyberwarfare Unit Exists]

SCADA systems are large-scale industrial control systems that let human operators control entire physical systems, often spread across several sites, from a single control room. Early multi-site SCADA systems used closed networks to reach remote sites, but it's become more convenient and more cost-effective to simply hook them up to the Internet.

However, Internet connections to SCADA systems build in new vulnerabilities, which can become matters of national security if those systems are power plants, water-treatment facilities, traffic lights or other pieces of "critical infrastructure."

As Krebs points out, this incident is just the latest in a long list of examples of what can happen "when corporate computer systems at critical networks are connected to sensitive control systems that were never designed with security in mind."

A Senate bill forcing critical-infrastructure operators to beef up their SCADA security was defeated by Republicans earlier this year. President Barack Obama is said to be considering an executive order that would achieve the same goal without Congressional input.

Even SCADA systems isolated from the Internet can be attacked, as Iran found out in 2010 when the American-Israeli Stuxnet sabotage worm snuck into the Natanz uranium-processing facility aboard a USB stick and set back Iran's nuclear program by several months.

After looking over reports of the ongoing attack against Telvent, Dell SecureWorks malware researcher Joe Stewart told Krebs that a band of Chinese hackers called the Comment Group seem to be behind the attack. Based on the Comment Group's abilities and preferred targets, many security experts believe the group is backed by the Chinese government.

The Comment Group uses highly sophisticated methods to break into the computer networks of high-profile organizations with data and secrets that "could give China an edge as it strives to become the world's largest economy," a July 2012 Bloomberg article asserted.

Among the targets mentioned in the Bloomberg piece was a law firm going after Chinese exporters and an energy company with plans to drill in disputed waters that China lays claim to.

STOP APOLOGIZING FOR CANADA DAMMIT

QuoteCanada won't say if China involved in hacking incident

(Reuters) - Canada said it was aware hackers had breached security at a domestic manufacturer of software used by big energy companies, but declined to comment on a report that a Chinese group could be responsible.

Calgary-based Telvent Canada Ltd, which is owned by France's Schneider Electric SA, warned customers about the attack, which hit operations in the United States, Canada and Spain, the cyber security news site KrebsOnSecurity.com reported on Wednesday.

"The Canadian Cyber Incident Response Centre is aware of this incident and is already working with stakeholders in government and the private sector," public safety ministry spokesman Jean-Paul Duval said in an email late on Thursday.

KrebsOnSecurity.com cited experts who said digital fingerprints left during the attack pointed to Chinese hackers.

If a Chinese group were involved it could complicate matters for Canada's Conservative government, which is deciding whether to approve a landmark $15.1 billion bid by China's CNOOC Ltd to take over Canadian oil producer Nexen Inc.

Some legislators are wary of the proposed takeover, in part because of what they say are China's unfair business practices.


Duval, citing operational reasons, declined to comment when asked whether Canada thought Chinese hackers were responsible.

Nexen is based in the oil-rich province of Alberta, the political stronghold of the governing Conservatives.

Candice Bergen, an aide to Public Safety Minister Vic Toews, did not directly address the incident when asked about it in Parliament on Friday. She said Ottawa had recently spent C$90 million ($92 million) on measures to combat electronic threats.

The opposition New Democratic Party said the Conservatives needed to pay more attention to security concerns when looking at foreign takeover bids.

"Cyber security is something we have to pay attention to and that ... includes how deals are set up and trade deals are set up and acquisitions are made," said legislator Paul Dewar, the party's foreign affairs spokesman.

Although Industry Minister Christian Paradis is responsible for deciding whether the CNOOC bid should be approved, independent Conservative legislator Peter Goldring says a parliamentary committee ought to examine it.

"One of the main priorities of this committee will be to determine whether a foreign state-owned enterprise is an acceptable bidder ... for taking over a Canadian corporation," he said in a statement.

If a committee were set up it could delay the government's timetable for a ruling on the CNOOC deal. Paradis is expected to announce that decision by Nov 12.


China is often cited as a suspect in various hacking attacks on companies in the United States and other nations. Beijing dismisses allegations it is involved.

An organization that regulates U.S. electric utilities is looking into the breach at Telvent Canada Ltd, which makes software that energy companies use to manage production and distribution of electricity. Telvent acknowledged a breach had taken place but gave few details.

The government's Canadian Security Intelligence Service says hackers try to break into government networks every day.

"Another traditional economic espionage target we often come across is the oil and gas industry ... Canada remains an attractive target for economic espionage," the spy agency said in its annual report released last week.

CSIS did not identify nations it said were responsible for the attacks. In 2010, the head of CSIS said ministers in two of Canada's 10 provinces were under "the general influence of a foreign government" and made clear he was talking about China.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: FunkMonk on October 01, 2012, 10:44:00 PM
President Romney would have never left that happen seedy.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2012, 09:36:43 AM
QuoteSix crew arrested after Hong Kong ferry collision kills 37

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Hong Kong police arrested six crew on Tuesday after a ferry and a company boat carrying more than 120 staff and family celebrating the mid-autumn festival collided, killing 37 people as the boat sank.

The boat, belonging to Hongkong Electric Co, controlled by billionaire Li Ka-shing, was taking passengers to watch fireworks in the city's Victoria Harbor on Monday when the two vessels collided near the picturesque outlying island of Lamma.

Five children were among the dead. More than 100 people were taken to hospital, with nine suffering serious injuries or in critical condition, the government said in a statement.

"We suspect that somebody did not fulfill their responsibility, that's why we made the arrests," Police Commissioner Andy Tsang said. "We do not rule out the possibility that further arrests will be made."

The arrests involved crew of both vessels.

The collision sparked a major rescue involving dive teams, helicopters and boats that saw scores plucked from the sea. A large crane on a barge was connected to the stricken boat.

"Within 10 minutes, the ship had sunk. We had to wait at least 20 minutes before we were rescued," said one male survivor, wrapped in a blanket.

Survivors said people had to break windows to swim to the surface. "We thought we were going to die. Everyone was trapped inside," said a middle-aged woman.

The fireworks marked the mid-autumn festival, when the moon is full, and China's National Day. Hong Kong returned to Chinese from British rule in 1997.

Hongkong Electric, a unit of Power Assets Holdings which is controlled by Asia's richest man Li, said the boat had capacity to hold up to 200 people.

The tragedy was the worst to hit Hong Kong since 1996 when more than 40 people died in a fire in a commercial building.

"OUR CAPTAIN IS NOT WELL"


The ferry, owned by Hong Kong and Kowloon Ferry Holdings, suffered a badly damaged bow in the collision but made it safely to the pier on Lamma, an island popular with tourists and expatriates about a half-hour away from downtown Hong Kong.

Several of its roughly 100 passengers and crew were injured.

"After the accident, it was all chaos and people were crying. Then water began seeping in and the vessel began to tilt to one side and people were all told to stand on the other side and everyone started putting on life jackets," a passenger said.

Hong Kong is home to one of the world's busiest shipping lanes, but serious accidents are rare. The city is known for its high-quality public services and advanced infrastructure.

A spokeswoman for Hong Kong and Kowloon Ferry said the company was trying to assess what happened.

"Our captain is not well and we have not been able to talk to him so far," the spokeswoman told local television.

A Hong Kong Fire Services official said the search was hampered by the vessel being partly sunken, poor visibility and too much clutter. The search for survivors was continuing on Tuesday.

Teams of men in white coats, green rubber gloves and yellow helmets carried corpses off a police launch in body bags.

At one of the city's public mortuaries, around 50 grieving relatives gathered, some crying, while others were called in to identify the dead.

Hong Kong leader Leung Chun-ying visited survivors and pledged a thorough investigation. He declared three days of mourning starting on Thursday.

Thousands of Hong Kong residents live on outlying islands such as Lamma, which lies about three km (two miles) southwest of Hong Kong Island.

Neato animation of the accident, complete with thought bubbles.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/sharednews-hong-kong-ferry-accident-20121002,0,5196869.premiumvideo
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2012, 11:12:21 AM
Not well = passed out drunk
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 08, 2012, 12:43:44 AM
Excellent piece on those sneaky rat bastards Huawei on 60 Minutes tonight:

Quote(CBS News) U.S. companies have largely left the telecommunications business to foreigners, but can we trust the Chinese to build and maintain the critical data infrastructure that government and industry rely on without spying on us? Steve Kroft investigates.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57527441/huawei-probed-for-security-espionage-risk/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

IF YOU LOVE AMERICA YOU WILL WATCH IT
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Kleves on October 08, 2012, 09:59:43 AM
Quotecan we trust the Chinese to build and maintain the critical data infrastructure that government and industry rely on without spying on us?
Survey says: No.
QuoteWASHINGTON — The federal government should "view with suspicion" attempts by two Chinese telecommunications companies to expand in the U.S. market because of a strong risk that they would aid spying and cybertheft by China, a yearlong investigation by the House intelligence committee concluded.

House investigators working for Democrats and Republicans said in a report that Huawei Technologies Co. and ZTE Corp., two private companies with deep ties to the Chinese government, had not satisfied security concerns.

"Despite hours of interviews, extensive and repeated document requests, a review of open-source information, and an open hearing with witnesses from both companies, the committee remains unsatisfied with the level of cooperation and candor provided by each company," the report says. "Neither company was willing to provide sufficient evidence to ameliorate the committee's concerns."

The report recommended that the U.S. government block the companies from access to any sensitive U.S. networks, and from acquiring U.S. assets. The companies make routers, switches and other parts used in telecommunications systems.

Huawei has hired lobbyists in Washington, including several former congressional aides, as it seeks to sell products to U.S. telecoms and otherwise gain a toehold in the American market. ZTE officials have also said they want to do significant business in the United States. But large U.S. telecoms are not likely to engage the Chinese firms if U.S. officials warn against it.

Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., the intelligence committee chairman, and Rep C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger, D-Md., the panel's ranking minority member, appeared on CBS's "60 Minutes" Sunday to discuss their inquiry.

"If I were an American company today, and you are looking at Huawei, I would find another vendor if you care about your intellectual property, if you care about your consumers' privacy and you care about the national security of the United States of America," Rogers said.

With $32 billion in annual revenue, Huawei is the world's largest telecommunications-equipment maker, while ZTE has $13.7 billion in revenue and is the fifth-largest. The firms specialize in technology that can be easily manipulated for electronic eavesdropping in ways that are extremely difficult to detect, the report says.

Huawei "exhibits a pattern of disregard for the intellectual property rights" of other companies, the report says, urging private companies "to consider the long-term security risks associated with doing business with either ZTE or Huawei for equipment or services."

The report was tougher on Huawei than on ZTE. It charges that "during the investigation, the committee received information from industry experts and current and former Huawei employees suggesting that Huawei, in particular, may be violating United States laws. These allegations describe a company that has not followed United States legal obligations or international standards of business behavior."

The allegations, including bribery and corruption, will be referred to the Justice Department, the report says.

Aside from those unspecified allegations, however, the unclassified version of the report does not specifically link either company to wrongdoing or spying for China. U.S. intelligence officials say China has mounted a brazen state-sponsored campaign to steal the intellectual property of American and other Western companies, often through cyberattacks that siphon information out of poorly defended computer networks.

Although the U.S. engages in extensive electronic spying, it does not undertake economic espionage, U.S. officials insist. At the same time, they contend, China has a strategy of bypassing research and development by stealing it. China denies this.

The report focuses mainly on questions neither company answered to the committee's satisfaction about ties to China, its government, and its defense and intelligence services.

Although Huawei is a private company, it receives significant support from state-owned Chinese banks that it refuses to detail, the report says. ZTE would not discuss its work for Chinese military and intelligence services, the report says.

At a September hearing of the intelligence committee, both companies denied that they would do anything improper on behalf of China.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 08, 2012, 10:08:58 AM
What I found interesting--and not surprising at all--from the CBS piece was how the future of our entire telecommunications backbone--like so much other critical infrastructure--rests entirely on foreign companies.

QuoteSteve Kroft: Were there any American companies that bid on this?

Craig Mock: I don't know of any American companies that makes this equipment.

About the only real U.S. competitor Huawei has left is Cisco, which is still a worldwide player, but doesn't produce all the equipment necessary to construct a 4G network. The only companies that do are all foreign: Huawei, Ericsson, which is Swedish, and the French company Alcatel-Lucent.

Jim Lewis: That's where we've ended up. We now depend entirely on foreign suppliers. Three European, two Chinese. No Americans.

Steve Kroft: The United States used to dominate this field.

Jim Lewis: Yeah it's true. You know, I guess we just were asleep at the switch.

Steve Kroft: What happened?

Jim Lewis: Some of it was just bad planning at the company level. Some of it was a lack of attention by the government. I mean, we would not have let the space industry go out of business. We would not say, "Oh, we'll depend on foreign companies to launch our satellites." But we didn't do that for telecom.

The answer is even easier:  foreign companies are usually cheaper.  I BLAME UNIONS
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 04:21:58 PM
Interview with Mo Yan, winner of the nobel prize for literature: http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/januaryfebruary/conversation/the-real-mo-yan

I liked this exchange:
QuoteLEACH: I'm told you wrote this wonderful book, which is entitled Life and Death Are Wearing Me Out in forty-two days with a brush instead of a computer. Would it have been different if you had written it with a computer?

MO YAN: ... Another reason I wrote is that I heard that people's handwriting, especially that of famous people, could be worth a lot of money in the future. So I'm going to leave this for my daughter. Maybe she can get some money.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on October 11, 2012, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 04:21:58 PM
Interview with Mo Yan, winner of the nobel prize for literature: http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/januaryfebruary/conversation/the-real-mo-yan

I liked this exchange:
QuoteLEACH: I'm told you wrote this wonderful book, which is entitled Life and Death Are Wearing Me Out in forty-two days with a brush instead of a computer. Would it have been different if you had written it with a computer?

MO YAN: ... Another reason I wrote is that I heard that people's handwriting, especially that of famous people, could be worth a lot of money in the future. So I'm going to leave this for my daughter. Maybe she can get some money.

Yeah, it's sort of the Old and the New China.

I think Mono would be particularly impressed by his practicalness.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 04:43:42 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 11, 2012, 04:34:05 PMI think Mono would be particularly impressed by his practicalness.

I think a significant number of Chinese would appreciate that comment, not just Mono.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 06:24:26 PM
Also - in Chinese language media right now: Bo Xilai is now officially arrested (as opposed to "not seen in public and excluded from the CCP").

BTW, I came across an interesting fact about Bo - while head of Chongqing, he arrested 17 of the 20 richest people in Chongqing and confiscated more than 200 Billion RMB (US$ 32 Billion) worth of property and cash.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on October 11, 2012, 06:34:32 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 06:24:26 PM
Also - in Chinese language media right now: Bo Xilai is now officially arrested (as opposed to "not seen in public and excluded from the CCP").

BTW, I came across an interesting fact about Bo - while head of Chongqing, he arrested 17 of the 20 richest people in Chongqing and confiscated more than 200 Billion RMB (US$ 32 Billion) worth of property and cash.

That's a very good way to make some serious enemies.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on October 11, 2012, 06:34:37 PM
Wow, there are a lot of billionaires in China.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on October 11, 2012, 06:41:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2012, 06:34:37 PM
Wow, there are a lot of billionaires in China.

Of course.  It's communist.  Everything is owned collectively.  Everyone is a billionaire.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on October 11, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
Bo Xilai also apparently paid a famous actress $1M US on ten separate occasions for sex.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:39:32 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 11, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
Bo Xilai also apparently paid a famous actress $1M US on ten separate occasions for sex.

Got a link?

And is it Zhang Zhiyi? Because that's the rumour I heard, though she denies it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:39:32 PM
And is it Zhang Zhiyi? Because that's the rumour I heard, though she denies it.

I don't care what the Party thinks, but Bo's stock just went up in my book.  Woof.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:45:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 09:41:55 PMI don't care what the Party thinks, but Bo's stock just went up in my book.  Woof.

If the rumour mill is to be believed, this was not an achievement unique to Bo.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 09:48:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:45:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 09:41:55 PMI don't care what the Party thinks, but Bo's stock just went up in my book.  Woof.

If the rumour mill is to be believed, this was not an achievement unique to Bo.

Yet another party I've not been invited to.  :cry:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 11, 2012, 09:55:51 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 11, 2012, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 04:21:58 PM
Interview with Mo Yan, winner of the nobel prize for literature: http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/januaryfebruary/conversation/the-real-mo-yan

I liked this exchange:
QuoteLEACH: I'm told you wrote this wonderful book, which is entitled Life and Death Are Wearing Me Out in forty-two days with a brush instead of a computer. Would it have been different if you had written it with a computer?

MO YAN: ... Another reason I wrote is that I heard that people's handwriting, especially that of famous people, could be worth a lot of money in the future. So I'm going to leave this for my daughter. Maybe she can get some money.

Yeah, it's sort of the Old and the New China.

I think Mono would be particularly impressed by his practicalness.

Be easier to type the book and write his daughter a letter.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 10:05:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 09:48:31 PMYet another party I've not been invited to.  :cry:

The Chinese entertainment industry is pretty... practical... in the way you can access cash if you're a starlet. Not quite as bad as the Korean one, as I understand it, but still pretty straightforward.

An acquaintance of mine is a minor pop star in Hong Kong. I was asking him questions about the sex trade and celebrity life in Hong Kong (part of the research for Sleeping Dogs) and as an aside he told me of going to Korea where he had business connections. His friend picked him up in the airport and asked him "who do you want to fuck? Name a girl and I'll arrange it" and he started listing off pop-stars and TV personalities. No words on whether my acquaintance took him up on the offer (though he's now married to a Korean former hip hop singer).

Hong Kong and mainland China may not be so bad as all that... but there Zhang Zhiyi specifically has reputation, especially after a scandal that popped a year or two ago. In Hong Kong, Jackie Chan has reputation as a requirement for any young ambitious actress.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on October 11, 2012, 10:13:58 PM
Forced evictions on the increase in China:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19894292 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19894292)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on October 11, 2012, 10:15:01 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 10:05:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 09:48:31 PMYet another party I've not been invited to.  :cry:

The Chinese entertainment industry is pretty... practical... in the way you can access cash if you're a starlet. Not quite as bad as the Korean one, as I understand it, but still pretty straightforward.

An acquaintance of mine is a minor pop star in Hong Kong. I was asking him questions about the sex trade and celebrity life in Hong Kong (part of the research for Sleeping Dogs) and as an aside he told me of going to Korea where he had business connections. His friend picked him up in the airport and asked him "who do you want to fuck? Name a girl and I'll arrange it" and he started listing off pop-stars and TV personalities. No words on whether my acquaintance took him up on the offer (though he's now married to a Korean former hip hop singer).

Hong Kong and mainland China may not be so bad as all that... but there Zhang Zhiyi specifically has reputation, especially after a scandal that popped a year or two ago. In Hong Kong, Jackie Chan has reputation as a requirement for any young ambitious actress.

Rather sad, sounds rather like aspects of Hollywood in the 30s/40s.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 11, 2012, 10:15:01 PM
Rather sad, sounds rather like aspects of Hollywood in the 30s/40s.

I know.  I'm so fucking jealous.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 11, 2012, 10:25:24 PM
Otoh, chan must be a better actor than us westerners realized.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on October 11, 2012, 10:26:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 11, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 11, 2012, 10:15:01 PM
Rather sad, sounds rather like aspects of Hollywood in the 30s/40s.

I know.  I'm so fucking jealous.

:D
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 10:28:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 11, 2012, 10:15:01 PMRather sad, sounds rather like aspects of Hollywood in the 30s/40s.

Yeah.

I wonder how much of that is going on today.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on October 11, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:39:32 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 11, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
Bo Xilai also apparently paid a famous actress $1M US on ten separate occasions for sex.

Got a link?

And is it Zhang Zhiyi? Because that's the rumour I heard, though she denies it.

Nah, no link.  Just a rumour that I heard from some friends here.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on October 12, 2012, 06:28:32 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 11, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:39:32 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 11, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
Bo Xilai also apparently paid a famous actress $1M US on ten separate occasions for sex.

Got a link?

And is it Zhang Zhiyi? Because that's the rumour I heard, though she denies it.

Nah, no link.  Just a rumour that I heard from some friends here.

:rolleyes: Why not quote Wiki when you're at it?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on October 12, 2012, 07:21:42 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 12, 2012, 06:28:32 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 11, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 11, 2012, 09:39:32 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 11, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
Bo Xilai also apparently paid a famous actress $1M US on ten separate occasions for sex.

Got a link?

And is it Zhang Zhiyi? Because that's the rumour I heard, though she denies it.

Nah, no link.  Just a rumour that I heard from some friends here.

:rolleyes: Why not quote Wiki when you're at it?

Hey,if you want harder details on celeb gossip, I suggest you try your luck with perezhilton.  ;)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 24, 2012, 05:23:26 AM
QuoteHuawei offers access to source code and equipment

Huawei has offered to give Australia unrestricted access to its software source code and equipment, as it looks to ease fears that it is a security threat.
Questions have been raised about the Chinese telecom firm's ties to the military, something it has denied.
Australia has previously blocked Huawei's plans to bid for work on its national broadband network.
Huawei said it needed to dispel myths and misinformation.
"Huawei has done a very poor job of communicating about ourselves and we must take full responsibility for that," said John Lord, chairman of Huawei's Australian arm.
He added that the company needed to be more open and would give the Australian authorities "complete and unrestricted access" to its software source code and equipment.
The comments were made in a speech by Mr Lord to Australia's National Press Club.

'Collaborative approach'
He also recommended that Australia should set up a cyber evaluation centre to test equipment used in the country's communication networks.
Mr Lord suggested the centre be funded by various telecom equipment vendors and operated by "security-cleared Australian nationals".
Huawei said it was necessary for the manufacturers and regulators to work together to allay security fears.
Mr Lord said that a similar centre had been established in the UK and that Huawei had given British security agencies access to its source codes, allowing them to test the security credentials of its equipment.
"No single country, agency, vendor, or telco has all the answers to solving cyber security issues," Mr Lord said.
"It requires a collaborative approach by all to ensure we can create the most secure telecommunications environment possible."

Showing the source code and equipment isn't the problem, you little yellow assholes.  It's the equipment you put in after showing the source code, shrink wrapped and sealed prior to install with "QA/QC" labels on them.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2012, 06:50:22 AM
"Is China using it's telecom firms to spy on another countries?" Of course it does, why wouldn't it? They don't mind selling slaves to foreign companies, they don't mind destroying their own enviroment, they don't mind gunning down their students. Why should the world think that it is espionage which they can't stomach?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on October 24, 2012, 06:54:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2012, 06:50:22 AM
"Is China using it's telecom firms to spy on another countries?" Of course it does, why wouldn't it? They don't mind selling slaves to foreign companies, they don't mind destroying their own enviroment, they don't mind gunning down their students. Why should the world think that it is espionage which they can't stomach?

Getting caught spying is bad for business.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2012, 07:01:51 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 24, 2012, 06:54:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 24, 2012, 06:50:22 AM
"Is China using it's telecom firms to spy on another countries?" Of course it does, why wouldn't it? They don't mind selling slaves to foreign companies, they don't mind destroying their own enviroment, they don't mind gunning down their students. Why should the world think that it is espionage which they can't stomach?

Getting caught spying is bad for business.

There's a lot of markets for them to peddle their technology in and ones that would be most upset like America - well we already have the House telling us we should stay away from their products.

Besides, depending on how closely tied they are to Chinese gov't, they aren't exactly the same as a standard business. At least that's what the 60 minutes report told me.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on October 24, 2012, 07:12:10 AM
There is virtually no distinction between larger business and the Party. Or indeed, courts of law and the Party.  Thus every business dealing with China should be treated in essence as a dealing with the Communist Party, with any legal dispute in that country being decided by the selfsame Communist Party.  America is smart to stay far away from Huawei.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on October 24, 2012, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 24, 2012, 07:12:10 AM
There is virtually no distinction between larger business and the Party. Or indeed, courts of law and the Party.  Thus every business dealing with China should be treated in essence as a dealing with the Communist Party, with any legal dispute in that country being decided by the selfsame Communist Party.  America is smart to stay far away from Huawei.

So how long until they come for you? :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on October 24, 2012, 07:30:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 24, 2012, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 24, 2012, 07:12:10 AM
There is virtually no distinction between larger business and the Party. Or indeed, courts of law and the Party.  Thus every business dealing with China should be treated in essence as a dealing with the Communist Party, with any legal dispute in that country being decided by the selfsame Communist Party.  America is smart to stay far away from Huawei.

So how long until they come for you? :(

Never. They aren't a totalitarian state (anymore) in the sense westerners understand, but rather something rather different.   Anyway, I do like China and even think the Communist Party has much to recommend it based on realistic alternatives, but to deny the lack of distinction between big business and the Party would just be untrue.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on October 26, 2012, 12:27:33 AM
The Wen Family Empire :showoff:


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/25/business/the-wen-family-empire.html (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/25/business/the-wen-family-empire.html)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on October 26, 2012, 12:54:30 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on October 26, 2012, 12:27:33 AM
The Wen Family Empire :showoff:


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/25/business/the-wen-family-empire.html (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/25/business/the-wen-family-empire.html)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-web-access-to-new-york-times.html?smid=fb-nytimes&_r=0

QuoteHONG KONG — The Chinese government swiftly blocked access early Friday morning to the Chinese-language Web site of The New York Times from computers in mainland China and gradually halted access to the English-language site as well after the news organization posted an article in both languages describing wealth accumulated by the family of the country's prime minister.

The authorities were also blocking attempts to mention The Times or the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, in postings on Sina Weibo, an extremely popular mini-blogging service in China that resembles Twitter.

The Foreign Ministry spokesman on duty in Beijing early Friday morning did not immediately answer phone calls for comment.

China maintains the world's most extensive and sophisticated system for Internet censorship, employing tens of thousands of people to monitor what is said, delete entries that contravene the country's extensive and unpublished regulations and even write new entries that are favorable to the government.

Rebecca MacKinnon, a senior fellow specializing in Internet free expression and privacy issues at the New America Foundation, a nonpartisan group headquartered in Washington, said that the Chinese interruption of Internet access was typical of the response to information that offended leaders.

"This is what they do: they get mad, they block you," she said.

The English-language and Chinese-language Web sites of The Times are hosted on servers outside mainland China.

A spokeswoman for The Times, Eileen Murphy, expressed disappointment that Internet access had been blocked and noted that the Chinese-language Web site had attracted "great interest" in China.

"We hope that full access is restored shortly, and we will ask the Chinese authorities to ensure that our readers in China can continue to enjoy New York Times journalism," she said in a statement, adding, "We will continue to report and translate stories applying the same journalistic standards that are upheld across The New York Times."

Former President Jiang Zemin of China ordered an end to blocking of The New York Times Web site after meeting with journalists from The Times in August 2001. The company's Web sites, like those of most other foreign media organizations, have remained mostly free of blocking since then, with occasional, temporary exceptions.

By midmorning on Friday in China, access to both the English- and Chinese-language Web sites of The Times was blocked from all 31 cities in mainland China tested. The Times had posted the article in English at 4:34 p.m. on Thursday in New York (4:34 a.m. Friday in Beijing), and finished posting the article in Chinese by 8 a.m. Friday in Beijing after the translation of final edits to the English-language version. So Chinese blockage of Web access followed very quickly.

Publication of the article about Mr. Wen and his family comes at a delicate time in Chinese politics, during a year in which factional rivalries and the personal lives of Chinese leaders have come into public view to a rare extent and drawn unprecedented international interest.

The Times's statement called China "an increasingly open society, with increasingly sophisticated media," adding, "The response to our site suggests that The Times can play an important role in the government's efforts to raise the quality of journalism available to the Chinese people."

The New York Times is not the first international organization to run into trouble with Chinese censors. Google decided to move its servers for the Chinese market in January 2010, to Hong Kong, a semiautonomous Chinese territory outside the country's censorship firewalls, after the company was unable to reach an agreement with the Chinese authorities to allow unrestricted searches of the Internet.

Bloomberg published an article on June 29 describing wealth accumulated by the family of Vice President Xi Jinping, who is expected to become the country's next top leader as general secretary of the Communist Party during the coming Party Congress.

Since then, Bloomberg's operations have encountered a series of problems in mainland China, including the blocking of its Web site, which is in English.

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 26, 2012, 02:07:02 AM
it does explain in part why Ping An is trying to sue the belgian government over losses suffered when Fortis Bank and Insurance collapsed in 2008/9
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 24, 2012, 07:30:04 AM
Never. They aren't a totalitarian state (anymore) in the sense westerners understand, but rather something rather different.

You should stop smoking your own pubic hair.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 26, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 24, 2012, 07:30:04 AM
Never. They aren't a totalitarian state (anymore) in the sense westerners understand, but rather something rather different.

You should stop smoking your own pubic hair.

He's right, though. You are still stuck in the 70s apparently.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 26, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 24, 2012, 07:30:04 AM
Never. They aren't a totalitarian state (anymore) in the sense westerners understand, but rather something rather different.

You should stop smoking your own pubic hair.

He's right, though. You are still stuck in the 70s apparently.

Totalitarian is still totalitarian, regardless of the branding, you filthy Sinopologist traitor.  Replacing tanks with internet blocs doesn't change that.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 26, 2012, 10:34:58 AM
The details about Wen's family finances were leaked on the same day as Bo was formally expelled from the party. It's not the kind of thing an investigative journalist would come across either. Right now, the US press is being used as part of the war being waged at the heart of the Chinese Communist Party.

Most likely a significant amount (if not all of it) of the anti-Japanese demonstrations are an attempt at a show of strength by the faction Bo was/is part of.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
QuoteChina blocks New York Times Web site after report on leader's wealth

No, not totalitarian at all.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 26, 2012, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
QuoteChina blocks New York Times Web site after report on leader's wealth

No, not totalitarian at all.

I guess it depends on how you define totalitarian. I have to agree that you can legitimately call present-day China totalitarian.

Still, it has different characteristics than totalitarian China 20 years ago, not to mention 50 years ago.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 20, 2012, 08:15:56 PM
This looks like a worthwhile if depressing read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20410424
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on November 20, 2012, 08:19:02 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 20, 2012, 08:15:56 PM
This looks like a worthwhile if depressing read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20410424

Yes, I was just reading that.

Also interesting how he went about getting the information from different government/provincial departments.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: dps on November 20, 2012, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 26, 2012, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
QuoteChina blocks New York Times Web site after report on leader’s wealth

No, not totalitarian at all.

I guess it depends on how you define totalitarian. I have to agree that you can legitimately call present-day China totalitarian.

Still, it has different characteristics than totalitarian China 20 years ago, not to mention 50 years ago.

It's definately authoritarian, if not totalitarian.  Either way, it's a one-party state with a terrible disregard for a lot of what most Americans would consider basic human rights.  Heh--it could be characterized as a one-party state in which the party itself can't decide if it wants to be authoritarian or totalitarian.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on November 20, 2012, 09:56:00 PM
Authoritarian, yes, but totalitarian no.  Totalitarian is more like an ideal, where the state has a major role in your entire life.  I'm not sure Nazi Germany was ever totalitarian.  It aspired to be, but was didn't last long enough and was too incompetent.  It take a lot of effort to have that much control.  East Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, and Pol Pot's Cambodia are all totalitarian or close enough.  North Korea probably is, but since so little information comes out of there it's difficult to tell.  I don't think China ever was Totalitarian.  Mao's failures in statesmanship required the cultural revolution, bringing out the mob to suppress his enemies.  The NKVD would have just made potential enemies "disappear" with out all the chaos.  While I don't think China ever accomplished Totalitarian rule, most communist regimes aspired to it.  It simply takes enormous resources to turn your entire country into a prison.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on November 20, 2012, 09:57:45 PM
Totalitarian states seek to control ever measure of a person's life, and tolerate virtually no dissenting opinions, or even works of any kind that could be considered harmful.

Examples of such states would be Stalin's USSR, Nazi Germany, and arguably North Korea (at least for most of its history).

Modern China is authoritarian, but it cannot be considered totalitarian IMO because:
- it does tolerate some divergence of views and dicussion (albeit within real limits, hence 'authoritarian)
- it doesn't seek to mold individuals to reshape human behaviours or create a new man
- similarly, it doesn't seek to control all aspects of a person's life
- it doesn't force-feed ideology to nearly the same degree as above mentioned states
- in practice it tolerates a wide measure of non-approved works.

Thus while they are by no means democratic, nor are they "totalitarian."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on November 20, 2012, 10:08:37 PM
I would disagree with Nazi Germany as Totalitarian.  The Nazi state was chaotic and it's internal security forces inept.  You don't have a massive army coup attempt in a totalitarian society.  While the coup failed (mostly because it as a dumb plan), it does indicate the lack of control the Government had over it's own people.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: dps on November 20, 2012, 10:32:02 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2012, 10:08:37 PM
I would disagree with Nazi Germany as Totalitarian.  The Nazi state was chaotic and it's internal security forces inept.  You don't have a massive army coup attempt in a totalitarian society.  While the coup failed (mostly because it as a dumb plan), it does indicate the lack of control the Government had over it's own people.

It was totalitarian within the bounds of the main point of Pitiful Pathos' definition, which pretty much matches other definitions I've seen:
QuoteTotalitarian states seek to control ever measure of a person's life

The fact that someone occasionally manages to smuggle a few Bibles into North Korea doesn't make North Korea less totalitarian;  it just means that the government's claim of total authority over all areas of every citizen's life hasn't been achieved yet.  That Nazi Germany was even further from actually having that much control doesn't mean that it wasn't what they were aiming at.

Contrast that with a typical 2-bit dictatorship, where as long as you don't challange the ruling government's political control, pay the right bribes to the right people, and generally don't rock the boat too much, then the government doesn't much care what you do otherwise.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on November 20, 2012, 11:05:20 PM
Seeking to control and actually controlling are two different things.  I may seek to be a genius, but it won't make me one.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 23, 2012, 12:06:48 PM
Apparently the Sanlu Milk scandal whistleblower was recently murdered.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2012, 08:22:14 PM
Little shits.


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.euronews.com%2Fwires%2Freuters%2Fimages%2F2012-11-25T141820Z_1_CBRE8AO13QW00_RTROPTP_3_OUKWD-UK-CHINA-CARRIER.JPG&hash=58ddacebc19780ea4166b118f5623dead897973b)(https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2012/11/25/1353856050049/Ground-crew-check-a-J-15--010.jpg)

Quote(Reuters) - China has carried out its first successful landing of a fighter jet on its first aircraft carrier, state media said on Sunday, a symbolically significant development as Asian neighbors fret about the world's most populous country's military ambitions.

The home-built J-15 fighter jet took off from and landed on the Liaoning, a reconditioned Soviet-era vessel from Ukraine which only came into service in September this year.

China ushered in a new generation of leaders this month at the 18th Communist Party Congress in Beijing, with outgoing President Hu Jintao making a pointed reference to strengthening China's naval forces, protecting maritime interests and the need to "win local war".

China is embroiled in disputes with the Philippines and Vietnam over South China Sea islands believed to be surrounded by waters rich in natural gas. It has a similar dispute with Japan over islands in the East China Sea.

It has also warned the United States, with President Barack Obama's "pivot" to Asia, not to get involved.

"We should make active planning for the use of military forces in peacetime, expand and intensify military preparedness, and enhance the capability to accomplish a wide range of military tasks, the most important of which is to win local war in an information age," Hu said.

China has advertised its long-term military ambitions with shows of new hardware, including its first test flight of a stealth fighter jet in early 2011, an elite helicopter unit and the launch of the aircraft carrier.

China is boosting military spending by 11.2 percent this year, bringing official outlays on the People's Liberation Army to 670.3 billion yuan ($100 billion) for 2012, after a 12.7 percent increase last year and a near-unbroken string of double-digit rises across two decades.

Beijing's public budget is widely thought by foreign experts to undercount its real spending on military modernization, which has drawn repeated calls from the United States for China to share more about its intentions.

China's state-run Xinhua news portal said the J-15 - which can carry multi-type anti-ship, air-to-air, and air-to-ground missiles - is comparable to the Russian Su-33 jet and the U.S. F-18. It did not say when the landing on the carrier took place.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2012, 08:25:37 PM
Y'all need to look up their new pterodactyl drone.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2012, 08:30:13 PM
I find it endlessly interesting how China's "home-built" shit is always so strikingly similar to Russian home-built shit.

Meh, they'll all splash the same anyway against real aircraft.  TALK TO ME GOOSE
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2012, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2012, 08:30:13 PM
I find it endlessly interesting how China's "home-built" shit is always so strikingly similar to Russian home-built shit.

Meh, they'll all splash the same anyway against real aircraft.  TALK TO ME GOOSE

Or looks American, like the pterodactyl.

http://theaviationist.com/2012/11/20/pterodactyl/#.ULLGcZG9KK0
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2012, 08:41:29 PM
As much as I bitch about those godless little yellow fucking bastards ripping us off, I'm confident that they possess the same fucked up QA/QC nonsense in their manufacturing supply chains that they have for everything else those little shits make.

That Pterodactyl is probably filled with sawdust, and covered in lead paint anyway.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2012, 08:43:37 PM
The nose is filled with aborted girl fetuses.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2012, 08:48:24 PM
Nah, that's what the under wing pylons are for.  EAGRE ONE FOXFETUS AWAY

Nose cone's got poisoned pet food in it.  For ballast, you know.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2012, 02:37:31 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 23, 2012, 12:06:48 PM
Apparently the Sanlu Milk scandal whistleblower was recently murdered.
Could you give us some more context?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on November 26, 2012, 02:03:05 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/26/heres-the-chinese-passport-map-thats-infuriating-much-of-asia/

QuoteHere's the Chinese passport map that's infuriating much of Asia

China's new official passport carries, on its eighth page, a watermark map of China that has set off diplomatic disputes with four neighboring countries. The small map shows a version of China that includes disputed territory claimed by India, a vast stretch of the South China Sea, including islands claimed by several other countries, and the entirety of Taiwan.

The map seems to affront diplomatic protocol around the disputed territory; it risks exacerbating regional fears of Chinese heavy-handedness with its neighbors and their sovereignty. Southeast Asian nations, on guard against China's rising strength and sometimes pushy foreign policy, have been edging away from Beijing in recent years. So this map is probably not going to help.

The offended Asian nations are striking back in their own ways. Vietnamese border officials are refusing to stamp the new passports. India is stamping its own version of the map on visas issued to Chinese citizens. The Taiwanese and Filipino governments have formally complained.

Here is my rough annotation of the passport maps, with the disputed regions highlighted and labeled. To give a sense of scale, Arunachal Pradesh, the disputed region in the middle of the map, is a bit larger than Maine or South Carolina. The South China Sea islands, of which there are many, are all part of China's sweeping claim.

One encouraging sign is that, as far as I can tell, the map does not include the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, which are claimed by China and Japan, and which have become a source of considerable tension and nationalist protests this year.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fworldviews%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F11%2FAP698624082433.jpg&hash=a710794e034b71773b968898d2e2d6ea454174fa)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fworldviews%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F11%2Fpassport4.jpg&hash=0585220b5848aa44d18f776e06568de73ddf49f9)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on November 26, 2012, 02:16:34 PM
Who could imagine getting worked up over a few little dashes?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on November 26, 2012, 02:26:43 PM
It's kind of a vague map.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 26, 2012, 02:28:24 PM
Wilhelm II is advising the Chinese on foreign policy I guess?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2012, 02:29:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 26, 2012, 02:16:34 PM
Who could imagine getting worked up over a few little dashes?

You know how they are over there.  It's all about :face: , whether it's saving it or upholding it.

I'd love the ROC respond in kind with their passport, and put the mainland in it.  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Malthus on November 26, 2012, 06:04:45 PM
At first, that passport pic looked sort of like a bloodstain on a mattress in a police forensics picture ...  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 27, 2012, 03:47:56 AM
clearly meant as a slap to other nations, the way they include the southern sda is stupid. i love the printing a correct version idea that india has.
it is weird theyve not blown the senkakus up to 1000 times their actual size and included them though...

Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2012, 02:29:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 26, 2012, 02:16:34 PM
Who could imagine getting worked up over a few little dashes?

You know how they are over there.  It's all about :face: , whether it's saving it or upholding it.

I'd love the ROC respond in kind with their passport, and put the mainland in it.  :lol:


given the stupidity of taiwans status that would probally be uncontroversial and looked on well by china. if they just printed taiwan however....
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 27, 2012, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2012, 03:47:56 AM
clearly meant as a slap to other nations, the way they include the southern sda is stupid. i love the printing a correct version idea that india has.
it is weird theyve not blown the senkakus up to 1000 times their actual size and included them though...

Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2012, 02:29:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 26, 2012, 02:16:34 PM
Who could imagine getting worked up over a few little dashes?

You know how they are over there.  It's all about :face: , whether it's saving it or upholding it.

I'd love the ROC respond in kind with their passport, and put the mainland in it.  :lol:


given the stupidity of taiwans status that would probally be uncontroversial and looked on well by china. if they just printed taiwan however....

if they coloured it with the NatChi flag however...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 27, 2012, 06:59:18 AM
Lol  :D

http://english.people.com.cn/90777/8035568.html
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 27, 2012, 01:28:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 25, 2012, 08:30:13 PM
I find it endlessly interesting how China's "home-built" shit is always so strikingly similar to Russian home-built shit.

Russian design + Chinese manufacture > Chinese design + Russian manufacture.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 27, 2012, 09:11:19 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 27, 2012, 06:59:18 AM
Lol  :D

http://english.people.com.cn/90777/8035568.html

I think everyone there is being too quick to jump the gun given the recent Iranian example of taking the onion seriously (It was the onion right?).
It might not be the case there though, they're straight forwardly saying it was the onion who did it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: citizen k on November 30, 2012, 11:25:32 PM

Quote
In China, perhaps even more than in Britain, a man's home is his castle.

So when 38-year-old Shen Jianzhong was faced with a mob of thugs trying to evict him, he asked himself what his hero, Bruce Lee, would do.

The answer, according to a video that has attracted more than two million hits on the Chinese internet, is turn to kung fu.

For 20 years, Mr Shen had been practising kung fu, teaching himself Bruce Lee's system in his courtyard home in Bazhou, Hebei province.

Working in a local gym as a fitness coach, he is also the holder of a world record, at least according to an association in Hong Kong, for the most press-ups in a minute using a roller. "I am now training to break the record for most press-ups on a balance beam," he said.

At the end of October, Mr Shen was able to put his kung fu into action. For six months, a property developer had been trying to get his hands on Mr Shen's house.

"They called it a remodelling project, to turn our village into a town," he said.

"They wanted to tear down the whole street, and promised we would get a new house of the same size in two years, as well as rent to cover the interim.

But I heard of people in a neighbouring village getting a much better deal, so we refused to sign."

At first, the property company stuck up posters warning of dire consequences for any families who held out. Then, Mr Shen said, when 70 of the 100 households had left, the threats escalated.

"This mob of thugs would block the street most days. They would pick on the women, threatening to kill their kids. Then people started tossing bricks through windows and letting off fireworks at night. Some people got beaten on the street."

On October 29, as Mr Shen went to work and his wife popped out for a packet of instant noodles, a mob of "30 to 50 men" materialised at their front door.

"My wife tried to close the door, but they pushed it back and she tripped over. That is how the fight started," said Mr Shen.

With a flurry of kicks and punches, he and his 18-year-old son, a fellow kung fu devotee, set about the attackers, rendering seven of them near unconscious in the hallway.

"It was self defence. I really cannot remember what kung fu skills I used.

It was quite messy. Only seven people were injured because the rest were scared and stayed outside. Some of them ran away," he said.

When the police arrived, however, they were little help, insisting that since the thugs were unarmed, it was Mr Shen and his family who were in the wrong. They urged the family to sign the contract.

Instead, the Shens posted their homemade video online, where it has gone viral as a rare David versus Goliath moment in the bleak fight against China's avaricious property barons.

They then fled, on the evening of November 21, to Beijing. Upon arriving in the capital, however, Mr Shen's son was arrested by the police, who said they would charge him with assault.

"I do not regret the fight, but I am worried about my son," said Mr Shen.

"I think they are trying to fit up him up with some crime. I am concerned that my actions will end up hurting him," he said, acknowledging that officials may try to emotionally blackmail him into signing over his lease.

As the Telegraph interviewed Mr Shen, however, his phone rang. It was, he said, a man named Zhou Jin, who claimed to be a member of the Central Military Commission, which oversees the People's Liberation Army.

"He said he had seen my plight and was outraged. He said I should not give any interviews to the media and he would come and collect me in his car this afternoon," said Mr Shen.

An attempt to contact Mr Zhou on the number he provided failed, but perhaps Mr Shen's bravura has won him a powerful ally.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-kung-fu-expert-beats-up-men-who-came-to-evict-him-from-home-2012-11 (http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-kung-fu-expert-beats-up-men-who-came-to-evict-him-from-home-2012-11)

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 01, 2012, 12:36:42 AM
I thought the video would have the fight :(

I'm confused about what happened...sounds like he has been dissapeared.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 04, 2012, 06:33:34 PM
Fresh rumours: a wave of arrest amongst officials.

The mother of the young man who died in the ferrari car crash (rumoured in the company of two naked young women) right around the time the Bo Xilai affair went down. Several others as well. More sex tapes have appeared involving various officials.

I guess it makes sense that different people are cleaning house at this time.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 04, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
Pornography featuring Chinese communist party bureaucrats.  That seems rather unappealing.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 04, 2012, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 04, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
Pornography featuring Chinese communist party bureaucrats.  That seems rather unappealing.

They showed one guys 'O' face.  :yuk:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 04, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Yeah that dude is not pretty, even at his best. Anyhow, word is that more such scandals are coming.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on December 05, 2012, 01:47:26 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 04, 2012, 06:33:34 PM
Fresh rumours: a wave of arrest amongst officials.

The mother of the young man who died in the ferrari car crash (rumoured in the company of two naked young women) right around the time the Bo Xilai affair went down. Several others as well. More sex tapes have appeared involving various officials.

I guess it makes sense that different people are cleaning house at this time.
"Thank you. I'm well. Don't worry," read the post on a Chinese social networking site. The brief comment, published in June, appeared to come from Ling Gu, the 23-year-old son of a high-powered aide to China's president, and it helped quash reports that he had been killed in a Ferrari crash after a night of partying.

It only later emerged that the message was a sham, posted by someone under Mr. Ling's alias — almost three months after his death.

How Crash Cover-Up Altered China's Succession: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/05/world/asia/how-crash-cover-up-altered-chinas-succession.html
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 10, 2012, 03:01:57 PM
The 50-cent party: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%E2%80%99s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party

To think that people do this for free in the West.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 10, 2012, 03:29:26 PM
New rumours about the Ferrari accident:

Ling Ji Huan (the guy in Philip V's article) was a close advisor to Hu Jin Tao, so his arrest was initially seen as a blow to Hu. The new rumour is that Ling was a friend of the Bo family and was promoted because of Bo Xi Lai's father.

However, Ling was the person who signed off on Bo Xi Lai's arrest. So, the new rumour is that the death of Ling's son was arranged as pay back for the arrest of Bo.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 10, 2012, 04:54:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 26, 2012, 02:16:34 PM
Who could imagine getting worked up over a few little dashes?

My wife's Argentina passport map has the Falklands and a big slice of Antarctica.  Always good for a chuckle.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 13, 2012, 02:50:33 PM
China and Japan send planes to those islands.

PLA instructed to be ready for "regional war": http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/China/China-asks-army-to-be-ready-for-regional-war/Article1-972474.aspx
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 13, 2012, 02:51:08 PM
... so basically, nothing new  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 13, 2012, 08:23:40 PM
Quote

Thursday also marked the 75th anniversary of the beginning of an episode known as the Nanjing Massacre, when the Japanese Imperial Army troops entered Nanjing, the then-Chinese capital and triggered large-scale violence.
what a strange coincidence :hmm:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Alcibiades on December 14, 2012, 06:10:26 PM
That drone is an exact copy of the American Predator drone  :lol:



And I wonder how many of those Chinese navy crewman on the Aircraft carrier are prior American Navy serviceman.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 14, 2012, 06:30:41 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 10, 2012, 03:01:57 PM
The 50-cent party: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%E2%80%99s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party

To think that people do this for free in the West.
You can find them in the club?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: citizen k on December 21, 2012, 03:20:25 AM
Quote
China's airing of 'V for Vendetta' stuns viewers
By By LOUISE WATT | Associated Press – Thu, Dec 20, 2012

BEIJING (AP) — Television audiences across China watched an anarchist antihero rebel against a totalitarian government and persuade the people to rule themselves. Soon the Internet was crackling with quotes of "V for Vendetta's" famous line: "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
The airing of the movie Friday night on China Central Television stunned viewers and raised hopes that China is loosening censorship.
"V for Vendetta" never appeared in Chinese theaters, but it is unclear whether it was ever banned. An article on the Communist Party's People's Daily website says it was previously prohibited from broadcast, but the spokesman for the agency that approves movies said he was not aware of any ban.
Some commentators and bloggers think the broadcast could be CCTV producers pushing the envelope of censorship, or another sign that the ruling Communist Party's newly installed leader, Xi Jinping, is serious about reform.
"Oh God, CCTV unexpectedly put out 'V for Vendetta.' I had always believed that film was banned in China!" media commentator Shen Chen wrote on the popular Twitter-like Sina Weibo service, where he has over 350,000 followers.
Zhang Ming, a supervisor at a real estate company, asked on Weibo: "For the first time CCTV-6 aired 'V for Vendetta,' what to think, is the reform being deepened?"
The 2005 movie, based on a comic book, is set in an imagined future Britain with a fascist government. The protagonist wears a mask of Guy Fawkes, the 17th-century English rebel who tried to blow up Parliament. The mask has become a revolutionary symbol for young protesters in mostly Western countries, and it also has a cult-like status in China as pirated DVDs are widely available. Some people have used the image of the mask as their profile pictures on Chinese social media sites.
Beijing-based rights activist Hu Jia wrote on Twitter, which is not accessible to most Chinese because of government Internet controls: "This great film couldn't be any more appropriate for our current situation. Dictators, prisons, secret police, media control, riots, getting rid of 'heretics' ... fear, evasion, challenging lies, overcoming fear, resistance, overthrowing tyranny ... China's dictators and its citizens also have this relationship."
China's authoritarian government strictly controls print media, television and radio. Censors also monitor social media sites including Weibo. Programs have to be approved by the State Administration of Radio, Film and Television, but people with knowledge of the industry say CCTV, the only company with a nationwide broadcast license, is entitled to make its own censorship decisions when showing a foreign movie.
"It is already broadcast. It is no big deal," said a woman who answered the phone at movie channel CCTV-6. "We also didn't anticipate such a big reaction."
The woman, who only gave her surname, Yang, said she would pass on questions to her supervisor, which weren't answered.
The spokesman for the State Administration of Radio, Film and Television said he had noticed the online reaction to the broadcast. "I've not heard of any ban on this movie," Wu Baoan said Thursday.
The film is available on video-on-demand platforms in China, where movie content also needs to be approved by authorities.
A political scientist at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences who used to work for CCTV said the film might have approval, or it could have been CCTV's own decision to broadcast it.
"Every media outlet knows there is a ceiling above their head," said Liu Shanying. "Sometimes we will work under the ceiling and avoid touching it. But sometimes we have a few brave ones who want to reach that ceiling and even express their discontent over the censor system.
"It is very possible that CCTV decided by itself" to broadcast the film, Liu said. If so, he added, it would have been "due to a gut feeling that China's film censorship will be loosened or reformed."
"V for Vendetta" was released in the United States in 2005 and around the world in 2006. China has a yearly quota on the numbers of foreign movies that can be imported on a revenue share basis, making it tough to get distribution approval. Other movies that failed to reach Chinese screens in 2006 include "Brokeback Mountain" and "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest." Chinese moviegoers that year were able to see "Mission: Impossible III" with Tom Cruise and "The Painted Veil," which was filmed in China and set in a Chinese village.
Warner Brothers, which produced and distributed "V for Vendetta," declined to comment.
China doesn't have a classification system, so all movies shown at its cinemas are open to adults and children of any age. A filmmaker and Beijing Film Academy professor, Xie Fei, published an open letter on Sina Weibo on Saturday calling for authorities to replace the movie censorship system that dates from the 1950s with a ratings system.
The airing of "V for Vendetta" raised some hopes about possible changes under Xi, who was publicly named China's new leader last month. He has already announced a trimmed-down style of leadership, calling on officials to reduce waste and unnecessary meetings and pomp. His reforms are aimed at pleasing a public long frustrated by local corruption.
State media say they have reduced reports on officials' trips as part of this drive. The official Xinhua News Agency warned this week that media outlets should "learn to play professionally in today's information age as an increasingly picky audience is constantly" putting them under scrutiny.
An American business consultant and author with high-level Chinese contacts said there is no less commitment to one-party rule in China, so any media reforms will only go so far.
"You can't have a totally free media as we would have in the West and still maintain the integrity of a one-party system," said Robert Lawrence Kuhn, who wrote the book "How China's Leaders Think." He said he thinks restrictions are being eased, "but it has to be limited."
The new leadership has to tread carefully, Kuhn said, because in the age of the Internet, talk about reforms won't be forgotten.
"High expectations, if they are not fulfilled, will create a worse situation," he said.


Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 21, 2012, 03:48:56 AM
As with many things in China, the Chinese censorship system is arbitrary. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 21, 2012, 05:58:56 AM
Ugh, what an awful movie.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Martinus on December 21, 2012, 09:23:01 AM
V for Vendetta is one of my favourite movies.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 09:30:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 21, 2012, 05:58:56 AM
Ugh, what an awful movie.

England previals!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on December 21, 2012, 09:36:46 AM
Isn't the "evil government" in V4V a tyrannical theocracy?  I'd think being against that fits in with communist revolutionary philosophy.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on December 21, 2012, 09:43:44 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 21, 2012, 09:36:46 AM
Isn't the "evil government" in V4V a tyrannical theocracy?  I'd think being against that fits in with communist revolutionary philosophy.

Well one of the reasons Mao decided to launch the Cultural Revolution was because the mayor of Beijing (I think?) wrote a play where the hero criticizes a Chinese Emperor which Mao took as encouraging people to speak out against him.  So I don't think the nature of the government a piece of media encourages the people to dissent against matters much.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on December 21, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Haven't seen the movie, but liked the comic a fair bit. My favorite Alan Moore book remains From Hell, though.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 21, 2012, 10:02:29 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 21, 2012, 05:58:56 AM
Ugh, what an awful movie.

I was rather disappointed.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on January 07, 2013, 01:49:18 PM

An opportunity for the new leaders of China to show what direction they are taking the country as journalists at China Southern Weekly calling out media censorship: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20929826

Meanwhile, reforms are announced to the labour camp system: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-01/07/c_132086216.htm

Basically, in China if you have a problem with your local officials, you can attempt to petition the central government for redress. However, if there are too many petitioners for a particular region or official, it will make the local people in power look back. As a result, there's a whole system of semi-official law enforcement dedicated to harassing, bribing and otherwise dissuading people from following through on their petitions. One of the common tools is sending the petitioners off to these reeducation camps. So... if these reforms take place, that's a step in the right direction (assuming they're not replaced with something worse, of course).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 14, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
From the Economist:

During the Cultural Revolution, the Red Guards pushed to change the meaning of traffic lights.  They wanted red to mean go, green to mean stop.  :lol:

This was brought up in an article about a new law making it illegal for drivers to enter an intersection after the light turns yellow.  :wacko:  :frusty: :bleeding:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on January 14, 2013, 06:21:54 PM
Making Chinese obey existing traffic lights would probably be the first step.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 15, 2013, 11:25:59 PM
From today's NYT:

QuoteOp-Ed Contributor
Dim Hopes for a Free Press in China
By XIAO SHU
Published: January 14, 2013

GUANGZHOU, China

A STANDOFF between one of China's biggest newspapers, Southern Weekend, and the national government ended last week with compromises on both sides. Southern Weekend hit the newsstands as usual on Thursday, after protesting staff members backed down from a threatened strike. The authorities, for their part, made tacit concessions, ending pre-publication censorship by the Communist Party's propaganda arm in Guangdong Province and permitting greater editorial independence.

The episode drew worldwide attention to the problem of press freedom in China and threatened to escalate into broader protests across Chinese society. Over the past decade, standards of journalistic professionalism have risen in China, even though most news organizations are controlled, directly or indirectly, by the state. These news outlets do not challenge the basic legitimacy of Communist rule, but have raised their standards for evaluating news according to journalistic significance rather than party interests.

But in the last few years, amid rising social unrest, the government has intensified its efforts at "preserving stability." One consequence has been a dramatic increase in control of the media. As a senior commentator at Southern Weekend for six years, I experienced both the flourishing of journalistic professionalism and its decline. Although I sometimes sharply criticized the government, my standpoint was impartial and balanced rather than antagonistic, and I did my best to maintain a position of independent neutrality. Most of my colleagues at Southern Weekend took the same approach.

Even so, at the end of March 2011, I was forced to resign from Southern Weekend, without any warning or explanation. This was a time of heightened tensions, when the authorities worried that the democratic revolutions taking place in the Middle East and North Africa might spread to China, and cracked down on individuals seen as potentially encouraging unrest. The pressure on commentators like me followed a similar crackdown on investigative reporting, much of which had been devoted to exposing corruption and had threatened special interest groups that are influential in elite Chinese politics.

Investigative reporting and opinion commentary are the two hallmarks of Chinese journalism, and the party has moved to crack down on both. My departure from Southern Weekend came as the editors capitulated to government pressure and quickly constrained the space for open discourse. Former colleagues have told me that since my departure, Southern Weekly's journalists find themselves walking a tightrope with every sentence they write.

This state of affairs came to a climax last May, when Tuo Zhen became head of party propaganda in Guangdong, China's most populous province. He enforced his power to the extreme and without an iota of flexibility, and micromanaged every aspect of media operations. Major topics of news coverage had to be approved by him, as did important articles, especially opinion essays. He even ordered changes in punctuation.

He was in fact a tyrant who cracked down on the press as zealously as Wang Lijun, the former police chief in the city of Chongqing, had cracked down on criminals without due process. Under Mr. Tuo, the press in Guangdong retreated into its darkest period since the start of Deng Xiaoping's "reform and opening up" policies in the late 1970s. Southern Weekend, a symbol of news professionalism because of its relative independence, bore the brunt of Mr. Tuo's attacks.

The run-up to the 18th Communist Party Congress in November was accompanied by the most oppressive social atmosphere of the past decade. The flare-up at Southern Weekend, over an editorial that had called for greater respect for constitutional rights until it was changed by censors, was the culmination of rancor that had been building for a long time.

The crisis has subsided, but there is little room for future optimism, because the deep-seated question has not been resolved: Is there, in fact, room for professional journalism to survive and develop within the system? It is on this question that not only journalists but Chinese in every sector of society have expressed doubt and exasperation. The repression of journalistic professionalism is not merely a journalistic issue, but also signifies the government's assault on society in general, and has exceeded the limits of public tolerance.

The fate of journalistic independence in China will depend on whether the authorities implement or backtrack on their tacit concessions. Public vigilance is essential if progress is to occur.

Does the political system have the flexibility to tolerate the professionalism pursued by journalists, and the press freedom demanded by society at large? How much will the new party leadership make good on its commitment to governance reforms and adherence to the Constitution? The Southern Weekend episode does not provide a clear answer.

Any sign of progress is worth encouraging, but rather than shedding tears of gratitude for promises that may prove empty, the Chinese people need to keep their shoulders to the plow and continue their own efforts to create the society they wish to live in.

Xiao Shu is the pen name of Chen Min, who was an opinion writer at Southern Weekend until 2011. He is on the editorial board of the history journal Yanhuang Chunqiu and a fellow at the Transition Institute, which focuses on political reform in China. This essay was translated by Stacy Mosher from the Chinese.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 16, 2013, 06:04:43 PM
The One Child Policy is here to stay.

http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/16/16544706-china-one-child-policy-is-here-to-stay?lite
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on January 16, 2013, 11:49:04 PM
Of course it is. Its a handy source of extra revenue that a corrupt government like China's would never pass up.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on January 24, 2013, 06:54:44 AM
Former Softcore Porn Star is China's Hottest New Politician

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/01/24/former-sex-film-star-is-chinas-hottest-new-politician/

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FOB-WC498_pengda_DV_20130124054932.jpg&hash=5673971d3dbbcd65dd2b2cc2e7d64ec4da13d20d)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on January 24, 2013, 08:05:17 AM
I won't call CPPCC members "politicians"  :lol:  That body is even more powerless than the People's Congress.  Those are just empty titles for people like movie stars, retired civil servants, local businessmen etc. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on January 25, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
Chinese Graduates Say No to Factory Jobs <_<

"Many factories are desperate for workers, despite offering double-digit annual pay increases and improved benefits.

Wang Zengsong is desperate for a steady job. He has been unemployed for most of the three years since he graduated from a community college here after growing up on a rice farm. Mr. Wang, 25, has worked only several months at a time in low-paying jobs, once as a shopping mall guard, another time as a restaurant waiter and most recently as an office building security guard.

But he will not consider applying for a full-time factory job because Mr. Wang, as a college graduate, thinks that is beneath him. Instead, he searches every day for an office job, which would initially pay as little as a third of factory wages.

"I have never and will never consider a factory job — what's the point of sitting there hour after hour, doing repetitive work?" he asked.

Millions of recent college graduates in China like Mr. Wang are asking the same question. A result is an anomaly: Jobs go begging in factories while many educated young workers are unemployed or underemployed. A national survey of urban residents, released this winter by a Chinese university, showed that among people in their early 20s, those with a college degree were four times as likely to be unemployed as those with only an elementary school education."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/as-graduates-rise-in-china-office-jobs-fail-to-keep-up.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/as-graduates-rise-in-china-office-jobs-fail-to-keep-up.html)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F25%2Fbusiness%2FJOBS-2%2FJOBS-2-articleInline.jpg&hash=1db1cb934edc7655db0c688c5e245285ab923680)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on January 25, 2013, 03:14:53 AM
Well that's just stupid.
Take what you can get till you get what you want.

Quote
"I have never and will never consider a factory job — what's the point of sitting there hour after hour, doing repetitive work?" he asked.
:hmm:
I've read Mono's stories and......




QuoteFormer Softcore Porn Star is China's Hottest New Politician

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/01/24/former-sex-film-star-is-chinas-hottest-new-politician/
I approve.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 25, 2013, 08:54:10 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 25, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
since he graduated from a community college here

"I have never and will never consider a factory job — what's the point of sitting there hour after hour, doing repetitive work?" he asked.

Even in China, a community college degree doesn't earn you the right to be snobby.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on January 25, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
Lust will destroy you! :o

Chinese Officials Fired Over Sex Scandal

'China's state news media reported on Friday details of a sex extortion ring that brazenly operated "honey traps" in the southwest metropolis of Chongqing for several years. The widening scandal, which first emerged late last year, has led to the dismissals of at least 11 officials of the Communist Party, government or state-owned companies for having sex with women in the ring and then being blackmailed by the men who had set up the snares.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/world/asia/chinese-officials-fired-over-chongqing-sex-scandal.html
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on January 25, 2013, 03:54:06 PM

QuoteFormer Softcore Porn Star is China's Hottest New Politician

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/01/24/former-sex-film-star-is-chinas-hottest-new-politician/


For Cal/CdM...

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.mcomet.com%2FuploadFile%2F2007-11%2F2007117541524211442008989.jpg&hash=4b2487ce3ba8d3957c35b939a2ac70123b85b951)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on January 25, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
She doesn't even do full nude.  Only showed her breasts at most, I think.  She is actually an accomplished dancer, so her trademark move is to do the splits.  The newspapers like to make fun of the fact that her upper lips are abnormally thin.  She has a habit of using lipstick to cover that up. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on January 25, 2013, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 25, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
Chinese Graduates Say No to Factory Jobs <_<

"Many factories are desperate for workers, despite offering double-digit annual pay increases and improved benefits.

Wang Zengsong is desperate for a steady job. He has been unemployed for most of the three years since he graduated from a community college here after growing up on a rice farm. Mr. Wang, 25, has worked only several months at a time in low-paying jobs, once as a shopping mall guard, another time as a restaurant waiter and most recently as an office building security guard.

But he will not consider applying for a full-time factory job because Mr. Wang, as a college graduate, thinks that is beneath him. Instead, he searches every day for an office job, which would initially pay as little as a third of factory wages.

"I have never and will never consider a factory job — what's the point of sitting there hour after hour, doing repetitive work?" he asked.

Millions of recent college graduates in China like Mr. Wang are asking the same question. A result is an anomaly: Jobs go begging in factories while many educated young workers are unemployed or underemployed. A national survey of urban residents, released this winter by a Chinese university, showed that among people in their early 20s, those with a college degree were four times as likely to be unemployed as those with only an elementary school education."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/as-graduates-rise-in-china-office-jobs-fail-to-keep-up.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/as-graduates-rise-in-china-office-jobs-fail-to-keep-up.html)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F25%2Fbusiness%2FJOBS-2%2FJOBS-2-articleInline.jpg&hash=1db1cb934edc7655db0c688c5e245285ab923680)

It isn't just a matter of status.  It is much more comfortable to sit in an air-conditioned cubicle than to work the assembly lines.  Office work also offers a much better chance in promotion and future prospects.  Few factory workers become managers.  Once you start doing factory work there is no going back. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on January 25, 2013, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 25, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
Lust will destroy you! :o

Chinese Officials Fired Over Sex Scandal

'China's state news media reported on Friday details of a sex extortion ring that brazenly operated "honey traps" in the southwest metropolis of Chongqing for several years. The widening scandal, which first emerged late last year, has led to the dismissals of at least 11 officials of the Communist Party, government or state-owned companies for having sex with women in the ring and then being blackmailed by the men who had set up the snares.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/world/asia/chinese-officials-fired-over-chongqing-sex-scandal.html

I think it's "honey trap," singular. This is the picture going around purporting to be of the woman who brought down Zhengfu Lei and the 10 other officials:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi47.tinypic.com%2F2z8votz.jpg&hash=c85e6412ae494bf8203d270171b76012fbf5c299)

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on January 25, 2013, 06:11:35 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 25, 2013, 03:14:53 AM
Well that's just stupid.
Take what you can get till you get what you want.

Quote
"I have never and will never consider a factory job — what's the point of sitting there hour after hour, doing repetitive work?" he asked.
:hmm:
I've read Mono's stories and......



You don't understand me.  I *want* to do repetitive work.  It is just that I don't get it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 26, 2013, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 25, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
She doesn't even do full nude.  Only showed her breasts at most, I think.  She is actually an accomplished dancer, so her trademark move is to do the splits.  The newspapers like to make fun of the fact that her upper lips are abnormally thin.  She has a habit of using lipstick to cover that up.

Who gives a shit.  I'd give her a squirt of my duck sauce right between those lips, lipstick or not.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on January 26, 2013, 06:06:09 AM
Well, I can never eat duck again.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on January 26, 2013, 06:08:16 AM
I think Seeds might need to get his pipes checked.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 26, 2013, 06:15:36 AM
My pipes froze and burst many winters ago.   :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on January 28, 2013, 07:18:08 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/486139_10152286285562588_23397407_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on April 07, 2013, 10:27:10 PM
Fresh rumor: Zhou Yongkang is said to have committed suicide.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on April 08, 2013, 11:56:01 PM
Big in Chinese media right now: some people who were falsely accused of rape and murder where set free when it came to light there was no evidence against them and their confessions were brutally tortured. The policewoman in charge of their case was previously lauded as a hero for solving so many cases so quickly; there's some sort of back and forth whether this was simply "one mistake" or a pattern.

In any case, she is seen as a protege (if somewhat down the line) of Zhou Yongkang who was known for that sort of brutal tactics in his career (and as the powerful Minister of Public Security). Whether Zhou has committed suicide or not, it seems that his star - and hopefully his approach - is waning.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on April 09, 2013, 05:36:52 AM
Wary of China, Companies Head South

'Manufacturers are flocking to Southeast Asian countries like Cambodia, below, as a way to limit their reliance on factories in China, where blue-collar wages have surged.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/09/business/global/wary-of-events-in-china-foreign-investors-head-to-cambodia.html

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F04%2F09%2Fbusiness%2Finvest-web2%2Finvest-web2-hpMedium.jpg&hash=2ee86f432e5563d4824c380c59dc7366ed9b9301)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on April 09, 2013, 02:30:16 PM
The race to the bottom continues!

Some day they will run out of countries to flee to.  Then people might get paid again....or the robots will have fully taken over.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on April 09, 2013, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2013, 02:30:16 PM
The race to the bottom continues!

Some day they will run out of countries to flee to.  Then people might get paid again....or the robots will have fully taken over.
That day will be a dark day for public order in the West.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: HVC on April 09, 2013, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 09, 2013, 02:30:16 PM
The race to the bottom continues!

Some day they will run out of countries to flee to.  Then people might get paid again....or the robots will have fully taken over.
they'll get paid but won't be able to afford anything :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 10, 2013, 10:54:45 AM
The Chinese textile sector still dwarfs its neighbors (about 10x larger than Vietnam).  The sheer size of the workforce and operations means that change will be incremental.  China also had infrastructure and transport advantages and productivity levels are higher so they can get away with somewhat higher wage levels for some time. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on April 11, 2013, 02:55:24 AM

Industry leaving China for SE Asia has been happening for some time. Something which China's international behaviour has really been helping along.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on May 01, 2013, 12:06:06 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsi.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FMK-CC856_CLABOR_G_20130430141203.jpg&hash=3db146bb39243bf714f108ff4ffc693aab16b393)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323798104578453073103566416.html
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on May 01, 2013, 12:13:46 PM
GL China. I'm not paying a guy $4 an hour.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 01, 2013, 12:36:20 PM
This is really a dog bites man story.

What is supposed to happen as a country develops successfully is that productivity gains eventually translate into higher wages and worker incomes.  As part of that process, the developing country eventually exits low valued-added, commoditized production for higher value production where productivity and technology matter more than raw wage levels.  This is a classic pattern that in the specific Asian context has been analogized to "flying geese": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_geese_paradigm.

In fact, the only thing that is a little unusual about the China example is that Chinese wages have increased more slowly than what could be merited given high levels of manufacturing productivity (roughly equivalent to that of a country with per capital GDP more than double current Chinese levels). 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on May 01, 2013, 03:34:52 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 01, 2013, 12:36:20 PM

In fact, the only thing that is a little unusual about the China example is that Chinese wages have increased more slowly than what could be merited given high levels of manufacturing productivity (roughly equivalent to that of a country with per capital GDP more than double current Chinese levels).

Why? Is it related to how our wages disconnected from the productivity increase?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 01, 2013, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 01, 2013, 03:34:52 PM
Why?

It's hard to pinpoint because the Chinese economy is an odd hybrid of market and command systems.  A lot of the value added that is generated by the economy may be siphoned off in the form of corruption, or alterantively in stockpiling trillions of dollars in the form of inert foreign exchange reserves.  At the level of the labor market, the hukou system and the absence of any real unions also probably suppress wage growth.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ancient Demon on May 01, 2013, 06:10:25 PM
I'm a little surprised that labor costs are higher in China than in Thailand. I was under the impression that Thailand was more developed than China.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 01, 2013, 08:16:31 PM
Chinese wages have increased a fair amount.
By all accounts there's too many jobs in China and not enough workers, they can pick and choose where they work, which is really boosting up the prices.

Maybe Thais don't have quite so horrific conditions when they work so the low pay doesn't seem so bad?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 01, 2013, 08:26:13 PM
I'd like to see the wage breakdown in China according to region.  I bet it's even higher than the $4 that chart shows along the coast than it is deep in the outback.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on May 02, 2013, 06:55:51 AM
New York Times headline: China Is Nearing U.S.'s Military Power in Region

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/world/asia/china-likely-to-challenge-us-supremacy-in-east-asia-report-says.html
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 02, 2013, 07:33:59 AM
Meh, those Carnegie people are weenies.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 02, 2013, 08:09:20 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 02, 2013, 06:55:51 AM
China Is Nearing U.S.'s Military Power in Region

That would be cause for concern if our power in other regions was immobile.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Malthus on May 02, 2013, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 01, 2013, 06:10:25 PM
I'm a little surprised that labor costs are higher in China than in Thailand. I was under the impression that Thailand was more developed than China.

Depends very much on region. Thailand looks very different from Bangkok as opposed to, say, Isan.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 02, 2013, 09:48:09 AM
Can't find the Carnegie report so can't really comment.
However, the premise that China is narrowing the gap in carrier capability is questionable.  China's carrier program is very embryonic at this point - more like zygotic.  the amount of work that needs to be done in terms of developing effective cadres of pilots, deck crews, and the massive tail of logistical support is enormous.  Not to mention there is currently zero capability to construct or source modern carriers, which is why their sole carrier now is a refurbished 25 year old ex-Soviet wreck.  And it's not like the US is standing still on modernizing and improving its own carrier capability.
More generally, China's ability to project power cannot be measured by a simple count of front-line combat planes, subs, ships, and modern weapon systems.  China's military capabilities away from home base are hamstrung by its weak supply and logistic system and that is going to take decades to improve. 

That said, their capability for home defense and denial of access to their local area is already impressive and is likely to continue to improve.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on May 06, 2013, 06:53:11 AM
The official Communist party newspaper, Renmin Ribao (People's Daily),  is building a new headquarters for themselves. Err . . .

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.derstandard.at%2F2013%2F05%2F06%2F1363876799268-beijing1.jpg&hash=8be9b84534a29e1e857b05098d5f9d949e1c1153)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.derstandard.at%2F2013%2F05%2F06%2F1363876799176-beijing2.jpg&hash=f9e9be855c00a903becbd0c54ed35d4a092c1983)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on May 06, 2013, 09:56:46 AM
Are you trying to imply the architect made a cock-up?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2013, 10:21:10 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 06, 2013, 09:56:46 AM
Are you trying to imply the architect made a cock-up?

:yes: And the board that okayed it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2013, 12:54:24 AM
http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0000247708

QuoteWith labor costs surging in China and domestic production recovering competitiveness thanks to the weaker yen, many Japanese manufacturers have been prompted to review their production in China.

Japan Display Inc., the world's largest maker of small and midsize liquid crystal displays, reportedly plans to relocate part of its production in China to Japan. Other domestic manufacturing companies are likely to follow suit, while some firms have already moved production bases to Southeast Asia and other regions.

Japan Display was established in April 2012 after integrating the LCD units of Toshiba Corp., Sony Corp. and Hitachi Ltd. By taking advantage of the three companies' technologies, Japan Display has focused on development and production of smartphone-related products.
Slide 1 of 1

    The Yomiuri Shimbun

As demand for LCD panels that are high-quality, thin, light and low on power consumption has been strong, Japan Display apparently believes its products can distinguish themselves from products of Chinese and Taiwan makers, even if part of its production is shifted to Japan.

Japanese manufacturers have maintained domestic production of some of their cutting-edge products, including Toshiba's recording semiconductors and Sony's image sensors, which boast top global market shares.

Also propelled by the recent weakening of the yen, Toshiba plans to invest an additional 170 billion yen in a semiconductor factory and related businesses this fiscal year.

Firms seek cheaper labor

According to the Japan External Trade Organization, local labor costs of Japanese companies operating in China rose by about 60 percent over the past three years. The firms that have made inroads into China to seek cheaper labor have found it necessary to review their current operations in the country.

In fiscal 2011, Funai Electric Co. lowered its production ratio in China that previously accounted for 90 percent of its total output. It intends to relocate its production of small and midsize televisions to a Thai factory, which will increase output capacity this summer. The company also has acquired a plot of land in the Philippines, to which it will consider shifting a printer production base from China.

Bandai Co. currently produces 96 percent of its toy products in China, but plans to reduce its China production to 90 percent by operating a new factory in the Philippines in July.

In the wake of soaring labor costs in China, Ito-Yokado Co. has also reduced its dependence in China for production of its private-brand clothing items sold in Japan. In fiscal 2011, 80 percent of its clothing products were manufactured in China, but this proportion was cut to 60 percent last fiscal year. In fiscal 2013, the company plans to lower the figure to 30 percent while increasing output in Myanmar and Indonesia, which have improved sewing technology.

The Chinese government plans to raise the national minimum wage by more than 13 percent annually while boosting allowances when employees leave the company.

Such steps are aimed at narrowing China's income gap and expanding domestic consumption. But this also means that foreign companies are likely to face rising production costs in China.

Japanese-affiliated companies have to be aware of other "China risks" such as the stronger Chinese yuan and anti-Japan riots since last autumn. To avert such risks, some companies have shifted production lines to other countries in Southeast Asia and other regions with cheaper labor.

Tests for smaller firms

Business managers' judgment in tackling risks in China will likely be put to the test.

Rising labor costs are a serious concern for small and midsize companies that lack the management vitality of larger firms.

Akihiro Maekawa, director of Cast Consulting Co., a firm that provides management assistance services to small businesses operating in Shenzhen and other areas in China, said more and more business managers are thinking of withdrawing from the country.

Tokyo-based yukata maker Tokyoin Co. is spending 1.2 million dollars to build a sewing factory in Myanmar. Up until around 2007, the firm had manufactured all of its yukata in Dalian, China. However, rising labor costs and difficulties securing workers made it hard for the company to continue its business.

The company plans to manufacture 70 percent of its products at the new Myanmar factory. Tokyoin President Yuichi Momose said he had no choice but to continuously seek a cheap labor manufacturing base.

Takamoto Suzuki, a senior economist at Marubeni Research Institute, said labor costs in China are expected to continue rising. "It's possible that labor-intensive industries, such as fashion and electronics, will keep relocating their manufacturing bases," Suzuki said.

Despite this, China is still an enormous market. Japanese businesses have already made large investments in the country, which is why most are opting to stay in China even after the recent wave of anti-Japanese sentiment there.

China=teh doomed
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Lettow77 on May 23, 2013, 02:09:41 AM
On a related note, this dampened the exuberance the Japanese stock market has been riding on a wave of lately.

China pls
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2013, 02:42:05 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 02, 2013, 06:55:51 AM
New York Times headline: China Is Nearing U.S.'s Military Power in Region

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/world/asia/china-likely-to-challenge-us-supremacy-in-east-asia-report-says.html
It doesn't seem to take into account the military capabilities of our allies in the region either.

^^^ Wonder why India isn't on that pay chart?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 23, 2013, 03:43:23 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on May 23, 2013, 02:09:41 AM
On a related note, this dampened the exuberance the Japanese stock market has been riding on a wave of lately.

China pls
Long time no see. How did the Jet app go?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
China now protects the champagne label, leaving the US as one of the few countries in the world that permits counterfeit bubblers to use the name.

The other principal remaining holdouts are those great bastions of free market principles: Russia, Argentina and Vietnam.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on May 29, 2013, 06:55:20 PM
Mei Guo Guo apparently has about US$ 1 Billion in her bank account.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on May 29, 2013, 06:57:11 PM
Smithfield hams to soon contain lead. Thanks China!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on May 29, 2013, 07:02:37 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
China now protects the champagne label, leaving the US as one of the few countries in the world that permits counterfeit bubblers to use the name.

The other principal remaining holdouts are those great bastions of free market principles: Russia, Argentina and Vietnam.
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on May 29, 2013, 08:03:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
China now protects the champagne label, leaving the US as one of the few countries in the world that permits counterfeit bubblers to use the name.

The other principal remaining holdouts are those great bastions of free market principles: Russia, Argentina and Vietnam.
As far as I'm concerned, this is what I think of when I think of champagne.  :mad:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.21food.com%2F20110609%2Fproduct%2F1305758255968.jpg&hash=ac3a202468184b4d394d82330e3c89a93dd13629)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on May 29, 2013, 08:38:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 23, 2013, 12:54:24 AM
http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0000247708

QuoteWith labor costs surging in China and domestic production recovering competitiveness thanks to the weaker yen, many Japanese manufacturers have been prompted to review their production in China.

Japan Display Inc., the world's largest maker of small and midsize liquid crystal displays, reportedly plans to relocate part of its production in China to Japan. Other domestic manufacturing companies are likely to follow suit, while some firms have already moved production bases to Southeast Asia and other regions.

Japan Display was established in April 2012 after integrating the LCD units of Toshiba Corp., Sony Corp. and Hitachi Ltd. By taking advantage of the three companies' technologies, Japan Display has focused on development and production of smartphone-related products.
Slide 1 of 1

    The Yomiuri Shimbun

As demand for LCD panels that are high-quality, thin, light and low on power consumption has been strong, Japan Display apparently believes its products can distinguish themselves from products of Chinese and Taiwan makers, even if part of its production is shifted to Japan.

Japanese manufacturers have maintained domestic production of some of their cutting-edge products, including Toshiba's recording semiconductors and Sony's image sensors, which boast top global market shares.

Also propelled by the recent weakening of the yen, Toshiba plans to invest an additional 170 billion yen in a semiconductor factory and related businesses this fiscal year.

Firms seek cheaper labor

According to the Japan External Trade Organization, local labor costs of Japanese companies operating in China rose by about 60 percent over the past three years. The firms that have made inroads into China to seek cheaper labor have found it necessary to review their current operations in the country.

In fiscal 2011, Funai Electric Co. lowered its production ratio in China that previously accounted for 90 percent of its total output. It intends to relocate its production of small and midsize televisions to a Thai factory, which will increase output capacity this summer. The company also has acquired a plot of land in the Philippines, to which it will consider shifting a printer production base from China.

Bandai Co. currently produces 96 percent of its toy products in China, but plans to reduce its China production to 90 percent by operating a new factory in the Philippines in July.

In the wake of soaring labor costs in China, Ito-Yokado Co. has also reduced its dependence in China for production of its private-brand clothing items sold in Japan. In fiscal 2011, 80 percent of its clothing products were manufactured in China, but this proportion was cut to 60 percent last fiscal year. In fiscal 2013, the company plans to lower the figure to 30 percent while increasing output in Myanmar and Indonesia, which have improved sewing technology.

The Chinese government plans to raise the national minimum wage by more than 13 percent annually while boosting allowances when employees leave the company.

Such steps are aimed at narrowing China's income gap and expanding domestic consumption. But this also means that foreign companies are likely to face rising production costs in China.

Japanese-affiliated companies have to be aware of other "China risks" such as the stronger Chinese yuan and anti-Japan riots since last autumn. To avert such risks, some companies have shifted production lines to other countries in Southeast Asia and other regions with cheaper labor.

Tests for smaller firms

Business managers' judgment in tackling risks in China will likely be put to the test.

Rising labor costs are a serious concern for small and midsize companies that lack the management vitality of larger firms.

Akihiro Maekawa, director of Cast Consulting Co., a firm that provides management assistance services to small businesses operating in Shenzhen and other areas in China, said more and more business managers are thinking of withdrawing from the country.

Tokyo-based yukata maker Tokyoin Co. is spending 1.2 million dollars to build a sewing factory in Myanmar. Up until around 2007, the firm had manufactured all of its yukata in Dalian, China. However, rising labor costs and difficulties securing workers made it hard for the company to continue its business.

The company plans to manufacture 70 percent of its products at the new Myanmar factory. Tokyoin President Yuichi Momose said he had no choice but to continuously seek a cheap labor manufacturing base.

Takamoto Suzuki, a senior economist at Marubeni Research Institute, said labor costs in China are expected to continue rising. "It's possible that labor-intensive industries, such as fashion and electronics, will keep relocating their manufacturing bases," Suzuki said.

Despite this, China is still an enormous market. Japanese businesses have already made large investments in the country, which is why most are opting to stay in China even after the recent wave of anti-Japanese sentiment there.

China=teh doomed

Why is China doomed?  If anything, I see this as great news for China.  Who wants to build iphones forever?  You want to eventually invent gadgets and the next generation of toxic financial instruments.  China is simply going down the same path that Japan went through in the last few decades. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 29, 2013, 08:45:48 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 29, 2013, 08:38:38 PM
Why is China doomed?  If anything, I see this as great news for China.  Who wants to build iphones forever?  You want to eventually invent gadgets and the next generation of toxic financial instruments.  China is simply going down the same path that Japan went through in the last few decades.

Japan didn't rip off all their technological development;  they maintained and honed the discipline it took to get it.

China has neither the internal cultural controls nor the history of flexibility and elasticity necessary to survive the same bumps Japan has encountered and managed to stay afloat when it hits them.

You never went to elementary school here, but "Chinese Cuts" never work out in the long run.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 29, 2013, 09:05:22 PM
Yeah, Japan didn't just stop making crap and move onto making the world's best teeny tiny radios. They had a long transition period of experimenting and gradually gaining acceptance as a country capable of making quality stuff.
With China...they're not really showing many signs of doing this yet, they're still sticking firmly to the bottom of the market. What is worse is that most of this is producing crap for other countries, not producing their own labelled crap as Japan did. Means they don't build up a name for themselves, dont' get so much experience with the difficult parts of the manufacturing process and it is a lot easier for the rug to be pulled out from under them.
Not to mention that there simply isn't the same world market for China that there was for Japan.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on May 29, 2013, 09:08:52 PM
I want China to produce more female babies.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on May 29, 2013, 11:40:17 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 29, 2013, 08:45:48 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 29, 2013, 08:38:38 PM
Why is China doomed?  If anything, I see this as great news for China.  Who wants to build iphones forever?  You want to eventually invent gadgets and the next generation of toxic financial instruments.  China is simply going down the same path that Japan went through in the last few decades.

Japan didn't rip off all their technological development;  they maintained and honed the discipline it took to get it.

China has neither the internal cultural controls nor the history of flexibility and elasticity necessary to survive the same bumps Japan has encountered and managed to stay afloat when it hits them.

You never went to elementary school here, but "Chinese Cuts" never work out in the long run.
:yes: China always had it easy throughout history.  Let's see how they handle tough times.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on May 30, 2013, 12:05:43 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2013, 08:03:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
China now protects the champagne label, leaving the US as one of the few countries in the world that permits counterfeit bubblers to use the name.

The other principal remaining holdouts are those great bastions of free market principles: Russia, Argentina and Vietnam.
As far as I'm concerned, this is what I think of when I think of champagne.  :mad:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.21food.com%2F20110609%2Fproduct%2F1305758255968.jpg&hash=ac3a202468184b4d394d82330e3c89a93dd13629)

Why does everything from your country glow brightly green?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 30, 2013, 09:44:38 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2013, 08:03:11 PM
As far as I'm concerned, this is what I think of when I think of champagne.  :mad:

I assume the color is due to Chernobyl fallout.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on May 30, 2013, 09:48:26 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 29, 2013, 09:05:22 PM
With China...they're not really showing many signs of doing this yet, they're still sticking firmly to the bottom of the market.

Quite untrue.  To the contrary, China has been unusually quick in moving up the value chain and improving quality and productivity.  In fact, China's domestic macro-economic distortions are due in significant part to the fact that the productivity of its workforce is way ahead of wage compensation.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Duque de Bragança on May 30, 2013, 09:59:13 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 29, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
China now protects the champagne label, leaving the US as one of the few countries in the world that permits counterfeit bubblers to use the name.

The other principal remaining holdouts are those great bastions of free market principles: Russia, Argentina and Vietnam.

:frog:  :D

Guess that's why an Argentine talked of drinking "champagne" when in fact it was sweet "sekt" bubbler stuff as it was in Germany. :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Berkut on May 30, 2013, 10:24:15 AM
When I see articles about business leaving China for Myanmar, or the Phillippines, I think more about what that means in the long run than just China.

The trends here are rather obvious, aren't they?

The developed world moves production to the un or under developed world, where they can find cheap labor. By doing so, they pour huge amount sof cash into those underdeveloped parts of the world, and gosh, whoulda thunk it, they start becoming not so under dewveloped anymore. Which means their labor costs rise, and the standard of living goes up, and a "middle class" develops that starts buying all that crap they used to only make for others.

At that point, it isn't really all that much cheaper anymore, and business either pull production back home (to avoid the overseas production costs/friction) or find another underdeveloped nation to relaocate to.

The only problem is that there are a finite number of suitable underdeveloped nations...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on May 30, 2013, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 30, 2013, 10:24:15 AM
When I see articles about business leaving China for Myanmar, or the Phillippines, I think more about what that means in the long run than just China.

The trends here are rather obvious, aren't they?

The developed world moves production to the un or under developed world, where they can find cheap labor. By doing so, they pour huge amount sof cash into those underdeveloped parts of the world, and gosh, whoulda thunk it, they start becoming not so under dewveloped anymore. Which means their labor costs rise, and the standard of living goes up, and a "middle class" develops that starts buying all that crap they used to only make for others.

At that point, it isn't really all that much cheaper anymore, and business either pull production back home (to avoid the overseas production costs/friction) or find another underdeveloped nation to relaocate to.

The only problem is that there are a finite number of suitable underdeveloped nations...

Yeah it is all working...exactly the same as us free trader types thought it would!  Theory and reality coming together in such a nice way...and faster than I thought.

I do not see that last part as a problem but a feature.  It encourages poor countries to get their crap together and then they will be rewarded and quickly so.  And if they don't...well wages will have to go up again.  Shareholder value will suffer.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2013, 06:08:13 AM
Hey, Xiacob or Mono...what's Cantonese for "you're welcome"?

QuoteChina Is Reaping Biggest Benefits of Iraq Oil Boom
By TIM ARANGO and CLIFFORD KRAUSS

BAGHDAD — Since the American-led invasion of 2003, Iraq has become one of the world's top oil producers, and China is now its biggest customer.

China already buys nearly half the oil that Iraq produces, nearly 1.5 million barrels a day, and is angling for an even bigger share, bidding for a stake now owned by Exxon Mobil in one of Iraq's largest oil fields.

"The Chinese are the biggest beneficiary of this post-Saddam oil boom in Iraq," said Denise Natali, a Middle East expert at the National Defense University in Washington. "They need energy, and they want to get into the market."

Before the invasion, Iraq's oil industry was sputtering, largely walled off from world markets by international sanctions against the government of Saddam Hussein, so his overthrow always carried the promise of renewed access to the country's immense reserves. Chinese state-owned companies seized the opportunity, pouring more than $2 billion a year and hundreds of workers into Iraq, and just as important, showing a willingness to play by the new Iraqi government's rules and to accept lower profits to win contracts.

"We lost out," said Michael Makovsky, a former Defense Department official in the Bush administration who worked on Iraq oil policy. "The Chinese had nothing to do with the war, but from an economic standpoint they are benefiting from it, and our Fifth Fleet and air forces are helping to assure their supply."

The depth of China's commitment here is evident in details large and small.

In the desert near the Iranian border, China recently built its own airport to ferry workers to Iraq's southern oil fields, and there are plans to begin direct flights from Beijing and Shanghai to Baghdad soon. In fancy hotels in the port city of Basra, Chinese executives impress their hosts not just by speaking Arabic, but Iraqi-accented Arabic.

Notably, what the Chinese are not doing is complaining. Unlike the executives of Western oil giants like Exxon Mobil, the Chinese happily accept the strict terms of Iraq's oil contracts, which yield only minimal profits. China is more interested in energy to fuel its economy than profits to enrich its oil giants.

Chinese companies do not have to answer to shareholders, pay dividends or even generate profits. They are tools of Beijing's foreign policy of securing a supply of energy for its increasingly prosperous and energy hungry population. "We don't have any problems with them," said Abdul Mahdi al-Meedi, an Iraqi Oil Ministry official who handles contracts with foreign oil companies. "They are very cooperative. There's a big difference, the Chinese companies are state companies, while Exxon or BP or Shell are different."


China is now making aggressive moves to expand its role, as Iraq is increasingly at odds with oil companies that have cut separate deals with Iraq's semiautonomous Kurdish region. The Kurds offer more generous terms than the central government, but Iraq and the United States consider such deals illegal.

Late last year, the China National Petroleum Corporation bid for a 60 percent stake in the lucrative West Qurna I oil field, a stake that Exxon Mobil may be forced to divest because of its oil interests in Iraqi Kurdistan. Exxon Mobil, however, has so far resisted pressure to sell, and in March the Chinese company said it would be interested in forming a partnership with the American company for the oil field.

If the United States invasion and occupation of Iraq ended up benefiting China, American energy experts say the unforeseen turn of events is not necessarily bad for United States interests. The increased Iraqi production, much of it pumped by Chinese workers, has also shielded the world economy from a spike in oil prices resulting from Western sanctions on Iranian oil exports. And with the boom in American domestic oil production in new shale fields surpassing all expectations over the last four years, dependence on Middle Eastern oil has declined, making access to the Iraqi fields less vital for the United States.

At the same time, China's interest in Iraq could also help stabilize the country as it faces a growing sectarian conflict.

"Our interest is the oil gets produced and Iraq makes money, so this is a big plus," said David Goldwyn, who was the State Department coordinator for international energy affairs in the first Obama administration. "Geopolitically it develops close links between China and Iraq, although China did not get into it for the politics. Now that they are there, they have a great stake in assuring the continuity of the regime that facilitates their investment."

For China, Iraq is one of several countries it increasingly relies on to keep its growing economy running. China recently became the world's biggest oil importer, and with its consumption growing, it is investing heavily in oil and gas fields around the world — $12 billion worth in 2011, according to the United States Energy Department. Over 50 percent of its oil imports come from the Middle East, even as imports from Iran have been reduced in recent years. "It's pretty simple," said Kevin Jianjun Tu, an expert on Chinese energy policies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "China needs more energy and needs to diversify its sources."

The Iraqi government needs the investment, and oil remains at the heart of its political and economic future. Currently OPEC's second largest oil producer after Saudi Arabia, the Iraqi government depends on oil revenues to finance its military and social programs. Iraq estimates that its oil fields, pipelines and refineries need $30 billion in annual investments to reach production targets that will make it one of the world's premier energy powers for decades to come.

The revenue that investment would produce could either help pave over tensions between Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, or worsen those tensions as competing camps fight over the spoils.

But the kind of investment that is necessary has required contracting the services of foreign oil companies that are not always enthusiastic about Iraq's nationalistic, tightfisted terms or the unstable security situation that can put employees in danger. Some like Statoil of Norway have left or curtailed their operations.

But the Chinese, frequently as partners with other European companies like BP and Turkish Petroleum, have filled the vacuum. And they have been happy to focus on oil without interfering in other local issues. "The Chinese are very simple people," said an Iraqi Oil Ministry official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he did not have permission to speak to the news media. "They are practical people. They don't have anything to do with politics or religion. They just work and eat and sleep."

International energy experts said the Chinese had a competitive advantage over Western oil companies working in Iraq. They noted that the Chinese, unlike many Western oil companies, are willing to accept service contracts at a very low per barrel oil fee without the promise of rights to future reserves. While private oil companies need to list oil reserves on their books to satisfy investors demanding growth, the Chinese do not have to answer to shareholders.

The Chinese companies and their workers also win high marks for their technical expertise, as long as they are not working in complicated oil fields, like those in deep waters. "They offer a lot of capital and a willingness to get in quickly and with a high appetite for risk," said Badhr Jafar, president of Crescent Petroleum, an independent oil and gas company based in the United Arab Emirates and a big gas producer in Iraq. He said the Chinese were vital to Iraq's efforts to expand oil production, adding, "They don't have to go through hoops to get people on the ground and working."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on June 03, 2013, 07:24:40 AM
Man, 100+ dead in a poultry plant explosion. I didn't know lead was explosive.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 08:58:09 AM
@CdM - dunno about Cantones, but in Mandarin it would be: buxie (不谢)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2013, 03:48:28 PM
Well, tell your handlers contacts in Beijing, "You're very buxie".
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on June 03, 2013, 03:53:32 PM
Will do.

Should I ask them if they have any openings matching your skill set?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2013, 09:55:39 PM
The secrets I could deliver.

They should send an almond-eyed honey to seduce them out of me.  Two, in fact.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on June 04, 2013, 05:30:24 AM
Instead, they send Margaret Cho
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2013, 06:41:30 AM
And Mono's iPod.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on June 04, 2013, 07:03:54 AM
A aPod. MUCH BETTER!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2013, 07:10:27 AM
An Appel aPod! I love it!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on June 04, 2013, 11:53:04 AM
May 35th Anniversary:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Fmt%2Fassets%2Fchina%2Ftiananmanlegosmall.jpg&hash=33fdfa36d10fe8ca6435a5d2a2a1b522da69350d)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Fmt%2Fassets%2Fchina%2Ftiananmenduckbig.jpg&hash=f9bfbc09b6f161f691c6514195d05e2a78b0bb6f)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Fmt%2Fassets%2Fchina%2Ftiananmancowbig.jpg&hash=6c2ce7c2bb206e8768c6b68af51b0339849c0609)

Article in the Atlantic here: http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/06/tiananmen-square-how-chinese-bloggers-play-cat-and-mouse-with-censors/276523/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/06/tiananmen-square-how-chinese-bloggers-play-cat-and-mouse-with-censors/276523/)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on June 04, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-F7QQla1ErJU%2FTnai7UTfVGI%2FAAAAAAAAFDE%2FOjU6beA60CM%2Fs1600%2Ftiananmensquared.jpg&hash=07aa8fa974359877f651a869579ca6fe92c0c66e)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2013, 05:43:11 PM
Shit, now I've got to find my old "Summer of Mono" photoshop.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on June 04, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 04, 2013, 11:53:04 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Fmt%2Fassets%2Fchina%2Ftiananmenduckbig.jpg&hash=f9bfbc09b6f161f691c6514195d05e2a78b0bb6f)

I think this one may have been shopped.  The shadows don't match the ducks.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on June 04, 2013, 05:48:58 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 04, 2013, 06:04:01 PM
Banning emoticons?   :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on June 04, 2013, 06:52:47 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 04, 2013, 06:04:01 PM
Banning emoticons?   :lol:
:huh: :blink:  :wacko:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 05, 2013, 09:05:04 AM
QuoteU.S.-China Meeting's Aim: Personal Diplomacy
By MARK LANDLER and JACKIE CALMES

WASHINGTON — When Tom Donilon, President Obama's national security adviser, met with President Xi Jinping in Beijing last week to discuss his coming visit to the United States, China's newly minted leader told him he wanted a conversation with Mr. Obama that did not involve diplomatic talking points. As if to underscore the message, he ignored the notes sitting in front of him.

When Mr. Xi arrives on Friday for his first visit as president, Mr. Obama will make his own symbolic gesture, welcoming him amid the olive trees and artificial lakes of a 200-acre California estate.

In more than six hours of meetings over two days, with ample time for dinner and a sunset stroll beneath the San Jacinto Mountains, administration officials hope Mr. Obama and Mr. Xi, who met for the first time last year in Washington, will really get to know each other, while exchanging ideas about how best to manage a complex, sometimes combustible relationship between the world's two biggest economies.

It is an enormous bet on the power of personal diplomacy, in a setting carefully chosen to nurture a high-level friendship.

Rarely, if ever, have American and Chinese leaders had so much unscripted time together. Jiang Zemin met with George W. Bush at Mr. Bush's ranch in Crawford, Tex., in 2002, but it was shortly before Mr. Jiang stepped down. And after talking for an hour, the two men jumped into a truck for a tour of the ranch, ate barbecue and held a news conference.

This time the setting will not be a ranch but Sunnylands, the desert retreat in Rancho Mirage built by Walter H. Annenberg, where Ronald Reagan celebrated New Year's Eve and Richard M. Nixon went to lick his wounds after Watergate.

For Mr. Obama, who is keenly interested in Asia but has little emotional connection to China, it is a chance to escape the stifling protocol of state visits and establish a rapport with Mr. Xi that the president never enjoyed with his predecessor, Hu Jintao.

Mr. Obama, his aides say, was frustrated that he rarely broke through in a dozen stilted encounters with Mr. Hu, who would respond with bland talking points, even when, for example, the president implored him to do more to curb the nuclear threat from North Korea.

For Mr. Xi, a tough-minded party veteran whose no-nonsense style recalls Deng Xiaoping, it is a chance to set the tone for his most important diplomatic relationship at the start of what is expected to be a decade atop the Chinese power structure.

"Their leadership was very open to this kind of encounter," Mr. Donilon said. "They sense that this is an important moment in the relationship."

The choice of Sunnylands, about 120 miles southeast of Los Angeles, with its history as a place where Republican presidents and their Hollywood friends went to unwind, was calculated to give this diplomatic first date the best chance of succeeding. Even the estate's Republican lineage may play a part, at least metaphorically.

"Sunnylands is a West Coast monument to Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan," said Orville Schell, the Arthur Ross Director of the Center for U.S.-China Relations at the Asia Society. "The last time the U.S.-China relationship broke through was Nixon and Kissinger."

Mr. Xi has on a number of occasions signaled his desire to break from normal protocol. At a meeting with Treasury Secretary Jacob J. Lew, he also did without talking points, prompting Mr. Lew to set aside his own notes.

Most significant, Mr. Xi, while vice president, spent about 20 hours with Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. in reciprocal visits. In those encounters, administration officials said, Mr. Xi expressed a keen interest in how China figured in American politics.

Mr. Biden, for his part, emphasized that the militaries of the two countries needed to communicate better, particularly given that China's growing military might is putting its warships and planes closer to American ones. The substantive nature of the meetings helped persuade the White House that it was worth putting Mr. Xi and Mr. Obama together sooner than the diplomatic calendar would have dictated.

Mr. Xi, analysts in Beijing said, has two very different goals: to nurture trust, yet project self-confidence. He appears genuinely to want a stable and productive relationship, but there is also widespread wariness of American intentions, said Sun Zhe, director of the Center for U.S.-China Relations at Tsinghua University in Beijing.

"China hopes that this visit will help to build personal ties and friendship between the two leaders so that conflicts in relations can be moderated," Mr. Sun said in an interview. "But expectations cannot be too high; otherwise, they'll be followed by frustration."

Tensions between the United States and China have flared over the Obama administration's so-called strategic pivot to Asia, which some Chinese, particularly in the military, have viewed as an American plot to check China's influence in its region.

"This isn't prewired for success," said Kenneth G. Lieberthal, a top China adviser in the Clinton administration now at the Brookings Institution. "There is a sense that the relationship has gotten into trouble. Both sides feel it can no longer be treated in a regularized manner."

Cheng Li, another China expert at Brookings, noted that after a brief honeymoon when Mr. Xi assumed power, he has already sowed suspicion among liberal elites in China with his strong ties to the military and what some see as nationalistic impulses.

Whatever the Sunnylands summit meeting might mean for United States-China relations, it will reset the Annenberg estate's long-established image as a Republican playground, where presidents relaxed with guests who included Frank Sinatra and Queen Elizabeth II.

"This place was created specifically for just this kind of meeting," said Geoffrey Cowan, president of the Annenberg Foundation Trust at Sunnylands. "It's beautiful; it's completely private; it's secure."

David Dreier, a recently retired House Republican leader who now leads an Annenberg commission on Pacific issues, said he told Mr. Obama about the estate at a White House reception in December and added, "One of my priorities is to get you there."

Other officials at the foundation also promoted the estate as a presidential location, so when the Chinese agreed to a meeting outside Washington, the White House director of scheduling, Danielle Crutchfield, raised the idea of holding it there.

Mr. Xi will arrive in California from Mexico after a three-country visit to Latin America, while Mr. Obama was planning to be in California for two Democratic fund-raisers.

There are limits to the coziness. Mr. Xi will not stay on the estate but at a nearby Hyatt hotel — a reflection of Chinese concerns about eavesdropping, according to a person familiar with the planning. Translators will be required, since Mr. Xi is not fluent in English. And while Mr. Xi's wife, Peng Liyuan, is traveling with him, Michelle Obama is not planning to accompany her husband, which will deprive the meeting of a layer of informality.

Still, other Americans who have met Mr. Xi recently expressed some optimism for the Sunnylands summit meeting. George P. Shultz, a secretary of state in the Reagan administration who was part of a small delegation to Beijing that also included Henry A. Kissinger, said the Chinese "are really trying to give us a message that they want to have a constructive, not a confrontational, relationship with us."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on June 05, 2013, 09:44:31 AM
It sounds like they are dating.  Tyr will be outraged.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on June 05, 2013, 10:45:56 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2013, 09:44:31 AM
It sounds like they are dating.  Tyr will be outraged.
:huh:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 05, 2013, 09:56:37 PM
Fareed Zakaria, Islamopologist and overall anti-America-as-Colossus weenie, actually says something rather relevant.

QuoteChina is not the world's other superpower
By Fareed Zakaria, Wednesday, June 5, 7:21 PM

In February 1972, Richard Nixon went to China and restored Sino-U.S. relations that had been broken for 23 years. During that visit, Nixon held a series of critical meetings with China's premier, Zhou Enlai, and they discussed the broad strategic framework that would guide bilateral relations. President Obama's meetings with President Xi Jinping this weekend have the potential to be a similarly historic summit — but with an important caveat.

China has always played a weak hand brilliantly. When Mao Zedong and Zhou met with Nixon and Henry Kissinger, China was in the midst of economic, political and cultural chaos. Its per capita gross domestic product had fallen below that of Uganda and Sierra Leone. Yet Beijing negotiated as if from commanding heights. Today, it has tremendous assets — but it is not the world's other superpower, and we should not treat it as such.

The United States has been accused of having a confused, contradictory foreign policy, as each administration reverses its predecessor. This is often a mischaracterization, never more so than with China policy. Since Nixon and Kissinger opened the door, U.S. foreign policy toward China has been remarkably consistent over 40 years and eight presidents. Washington has sought to integrate China into the world, economically and politically. This policy has been good for the United States, good for the world and extremely good for China.

But many of the forces that pushed the two countries together are waning. For the first two decades of relations, Washington had strategic reasons to align with Beijing and shift the balance of power against the Soviet Union. While China was in its early years of development, it desperately needed access to U.S. capital, technology and political assistance to expand its economy. Today, China is much stronger and is acting in ways — from cyberattacks to its policies in Africa — that are counter to U.S. interests and values. For its part, Washington must respond to the realities of Asia, where its historic allies are nervous about China's rise.

That's why the meetings between Obama and Xi are important. Both countries need to take a clear-eyed look at the relationship and find a new path that could define a cooperative framework for the future, as Nixon and Zhou did in 1972. Both sides should seek to create a broad atmosphere of trust rather than to work through a "to-do" list.

Some Americans want to see these meetings as a "G-2" alliance of sorts between the world's largest economies. That would not serve U.S. interests nor those of broader global stability and integration.

China is the world's second-largest economy and, because of its size, will one day become the largest. (On a per-capita basis, it is a middle-income country, and it might never surpass the United States in that regard.) But power is defined along many dimensions, and by most political, military, strategic and cultural measures, China is a great but not global power. For now, it lacks the intellectual ambition to set the global agenda.

The scholar David Shambaugh, who has always been well-disposed toward China, put it this way in a recent book: "China is, in essence, a very narrow-minded, self-interested, realist state, seeking only to maximize its own national interests and power. It cares little for global governance and enforcing global standards of behavior (except its much-vaunted doctrine of noninterference in the internal affairs of countries). Its economic policies are mercantilist and its diplomacy is passive. China is also a lonely strategic power, with no allies and experiencing distrust and strained relationships with much of the world."

Beijing wants good relations with the United States and a general climate of external stability. That's partly because it faces huge internal challenges. Chinese leaders want to embark on serious reform at home (described as "rectification") and are searching for a way to generate greater legitimacy for the Communist Party, experimenting with both a return to Maoist rhetoric and a revival of nationalism. Beijing wants to rise without creating a powerful anti-Chinese backlash among Asia's other powers.

The United States should seek good and deep relations with China. They would mean a more stable, prosperous and peaceful world. Further integrating China into an open global system would help maintain that system and the open world economy that rests on it. But this can happen only if China recognizes and respects that system and operates from the perspective of a global power and not that of a "narrow-minded" state seeking only to maximize its interests.

In other words, when China starts acting like a superpower, we should treat it like one.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on June 05, 2013, 10:09:57 PM
So what's he want us to do?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on June 05, 2013, 10:34:39 PM
Go back to treating them as a quaint insignificant people, with nothing of value to offer.  Because that worked so well for centuries.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on June 05, 2013, 11:28:50 PM
I don't understand.  What is the difference between being treated like a superpower, and not being treated like one?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on June 05, 2013, 11:31:17 PM
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/tocqueville-in-china (http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/tocqueville-in-china)

QuoteTocqueville in China

By Rebecca Liao - May 22, 2013

One of the most vibrant intellectual discussions in China this year began with a tweet on Weibo, China's premier micro-blogging service and anointed online town square. Economist Hua Sheng had just met with Politburo Standing Committee member Wang Qishan, China's anti-corruption czar, charged with fixing the country's most important political problem. As Sinologist Joseph Fewsmith reported, Hua breathlessly tweeted after the meeting:

    I went to the sea [海, an apparent abbreviation for 中南海, the seat of Communist power] to see my old leader. He recommended I read Tocqueville's The Old Regime and the French Revolution. He believes that a big country like China that is playing such an important role in the world, whether viewed from the perspective of history or the external environment facing it today, will not modernize all that smoothly. The price the Chinese people have paid is still not enough.

Hua's self-congratulatory reporting on social media would spur the cheapest propaganda campaign the Chinese government has instituted in years—one that is part of a tradition of intellectual suggestion by senior Chinese leaders, usually through sharing current reading lists. Wen Jiabao, China's previous premier, popularized Marcus Aurelius's The Meditations by revealing that he had read it over a hundred times. And since Wang plugged The Old Regime late last year, Tocqueville's tome has been front and center at the bookstore of the Party School of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, where China's future leaders are trained. The curious and ambitious in China are reading it, too, making it one of the country's best-selling titles in the last few months.

Wang is perceived as a frank, pragmatic, and highly competent and thoughtful leader. He made his name running the Beijing Olympics, dealing with the outbreak of SARS in 2003, and shepherding China's economy in the last administration. It is somewhat surprising, then, that the discussion he engendered about Tocqueville and modern China has been so simple, only producing a couple uncomfortable yet ultimately straightforward takeaways.

The general consensus in China is that the book offers two main historical lessons applicable to the country's tenuous domestic situation. One, the French Revolution burst forth not when France's economy was at a nadir and the central government strong, but when there was relative prosperity and political reform. Two, it is the nature of revolution that those who carry it out become what they most despise once in power. Such aphoristic caveats against both reform and revolution have been repeated for the last few months and treated as novel and significant each time.

Still, reform-minded Chinese can take comfort in the fact that the new treatment of Tocqueville is so misguided as to be useless. Like France, China's path out of feudalism involved the subdivision of land among the peasantry and the general enrichment of the underclass. New economic rights brought additional burdens like taxes, legal obligations, and a more involved civic role, though not necessarily a sense of civic duty. Political dysfunction stemmed from the monetization of government offices. (In France's case, the government sold administrative positions and entrenched those who held them much more explicitly.) Rural elections were little more than a ritual, but peasants clung to them as an outlet for political action even as they gladly embraced centralization at the upper levels of government. Any democratic gains made by replacing birth with money as the passport to power met with great resistance from the traditional social hierarchy, at the top of which sat an increasingly irrelevant aristocracy.

But the differences are vital. The lack of a meaningful vote in China has pushed people at the grassroots to assert themselves through demonstrations and riots. Not all make international headlines the way an uprising in the village of Wukan did in 2011 because most do not result in the demonstrators' demands being met. Still, compromises between villagers and officials are not uncommon and indicate a healthy demand for Communist Party accountability.

    There is no shortage of influential voices calling for reform. However, the overwhelming tone is not righteous indignation in support of the disadvantaged but practical concern that a vastly unequal society will not survive.

And while the princeling class, comprised of the offspring of powerful Communist Party officials, may seem to be post-revolutionary China's version of pre-revolutionary France's aristocracy, the princelings are more evenly matched, both politically and socially, by a faction of cadres without prestigious family backgrounds. Neither group is immune from the uncertainties or demands of political life, and patronage within the CCP hierarchy can cross faction lines. Though from humble birth, Wang Qishan married into a princeling family and was mentored by his father-in-law. And princeling status by no means assures political survival. Bo Xilai, whose father Bo Yibo is one of the Eight Immortals in Mao Zedong's original circle, was deposed in spectacular fashion last year from his position as Party Secretary of Chongqing and awaits trial.

This is not to say that a spirit of egalitarianism guides China. There is no shortage of influential voices calling for reform. However, the overwhelming tone is not righteous indignation in support of the disadvantaged but practical concern that a vastly unequal society will not survive. Even members of China's liberal intelligentsia feel the need to constantly answer to the country's pragmatic approach to reform. The pre-revolutionary French elite, however, for all their disdain for the lower classes, expressed a passionate sympathy for the peasantry. The revolutionary ideas of French intellectuals gained traction among an already receptive audience. As much as the Chinese Communist Party would like to believe that an unbridled love of liberty is the greatest threat to its existence, the truth is that many of its critics are also trying to protect against chaos.

Perhaps it is thanks to the absence of such liberal fervor that The Old Regime was not disqualified for consumption by the normally hyper-sensitive party cadre—despite the book's affirmation of liberty as the antidote to a rotting post-revolutionary society.

Fascination with Tocqueville's book is curious in other ways as well. In its urgency to find a solution to China's complex problems, the CCP fails to acknowledge that it occupies the same contemporary world and shares the same modern revolutionary tradition as those looking to overhaul or depose it. If reform jitters had the leadership looking for possible sources of revolution within Chinese society, it did not have to look further than China's own past. Why reach for a reference as distant as Tocqueville?

What most distinguishes modern China from Bourbon France is the Communist Party's staunchly conservative and technical approach to reform. Tocqueville marveled at how France's pre-revolutionary government, "which was so overbearing and despotic when all was submission, lost its presence of mind at the first show of resistance, was alarmed by the mildest criticism, and terrified at the least noise." The government was so enthusiastic about reform that, in the thirty to forty years leading up to the French Revolution, it invested heavily in public projects, leading to debts to outside contractors that could not be repaid. Laws were loosely enforced to stave off popular resistance. The government remained functional and absolute at the highest levels, but organizational friction severely hampered the activities of day-to-day administration. Frustration with dysfunction grew into a more serious objection to injustice as government continued to offer moral rationales for its policies.

In contrast, the Chinese government is known for its administrative prowess, given credit for much of China's economic growth. The central authority tightly controls the core economic indicators by managing resources, policies, and, in some cases, national projects with an eye toward pursuing growth efficiently. At the provincial level, there is flexibility and policy experimentation, with successful results sometimes adopted nationally. The bureaucratic infrastructure that runs the country undergoes reorganization when administrative functions need to be streamlined. Most recently, the National People's Congress in March reduced the number of ministries under the State Council, China's cabinet, from twenty-seven to twenty-five. Among other changes, the controversial (and corrupt) Ministry of Railways was split into two to separate oversight of trains and railways from the government's commercial interaction with the industry. According to Xinhua, China's chief news agency, the latest round of restructuring is the seventh in the last three decades.

This is not to say that the bureaucracy is robust: corruption significantly retards government functions on all levels, and the legal and regulatory infrastructure tends to play catch-up with new social and economic developments and demands. Still, the country's leaders are on the whole confident they will make the structural adjustments necessary to remain on track for economic preeminence by 2030.

Such faith comes from a belief in the Chinese governance tradition rather than the institutions themselves. Pan Wei, a leading scholar of Chinese politics with a traditionalist bent, sums up the sentiment nicely, writing that meritocracy is

    [t]he greatest contribution that China has made to the political civilization in the world...Today, both the government and party officials must go through this process of examination and evaluation. As to accountability, this meritocracy is not inferior to electoral democracy.

When naming the virtues of their current system of governance, the Chinese make sure to mention that Voltaire was a great admirer of Imperial China's centralized system of rule by the mandarinate, which shares much in common with the meritocracy that the Communist Party aspires to be. Tocqueville, who also appreciated a well-run authoritarian system, was of a different mind. To him, the Imperial Chinese system

    produced subjects rather than citizens. The consequences extended far beyond the political realm, creating a society characterized by "tranquility without happiness, industry without progress, stability without force, and material order without public morality."

And yet, judging by his nostalgia for an enlightened and civic-minded aristocracy, the Chinese might wonder if Tocqueville would appreciate the current incarnation of what he found unimpressive the first time around. He strongly implies that if an enlightened sovereign had been at the head of state, France's reform program would not have been so thoughtless and therefore disastrous. It is a testament to their self-doubt that the Chinese have not identified themselves as this special case despite their pride in the governing infrastructure they've built over the last thirty years.

The Old Regime, then, is a pep talk more than a warning. Tocqueville's conservative admiration of a learned aristocracy with a healthy sense of noblesse oblige is ultimately a validation of the party's pride in (still maturing) modern Chinese governance—which it considers to be its greatest strength and ticket to holding power in perpetuity. The lesson the Chinese leadership wishes to learn is that as long as they prevent themselves from becoming the bumbling administrators that pushed France toward revolution, all will be well. This message could not be more welcome as the Chinese have watched communism, whose authoritarian regimes looked briefly like the future in the middle part of the last century, cede its revolutionary mantle to liberal democracy.

Still, the worry of collapse persists. China's insecurities are sustained by the feeling that while it lives by the mantra that universal political truths should not exist, the international consensus is that they are in fact inevitable. Mao Zedong never shared Vladimir Lenin's conviction that communism should be spread throughout the world and the proletarian dictatorship hastened. Aside from an initial bout of enthusiasm for foreign revolutionary groups in the 1950s and '60s, China's active support for international communism has been motivated more by anti-imperialist sentiment. Its involvement in the Korean and Vietnam wars were defensive measures against perceived geopolitical encroachment by the United States. Its consistent courtship of rogue and Third World countries reveal just how its leaders perceive its relationship with the international community and, by extension, its vision as a country. In a speech given in 1943 on the dissolution of the Comintern, the international communist organization devoted to facilitating worldwide revolution, Mao stated,

    Revolutionary movements can be neither exported nor imported. Despite the fact that aid was accorded by the Comintern, the birth and development of the Chinese Communist Party resulted from the fact that China herself had a conscious working class...The internal situation in each country and the relations between the different countries are more complicated than they have been in the past and are changing more rapidly.

On a visit to Mexico in 2009, President Xi Jinping echoed the same commitment to non-interference: "Well-fed foreigners have nothing better to do than point fingers at China. But China does not export revolution; we do not export poverty and hunger; and we do not interfere in the affairs of others." A significant part of China's opposition to Western liberalism, then as now, is based as much on ideological disagreement as it is on the presumption of universality.

    A significant part of China's opposition to Western liberalism, then as now, is based as much on ideological disagreement as it is on the presumption of universality.

Nevertheless, more than ever, China's government has a long-term interest in not casting itself as the alternative to the West, lest it acknowledge and validate the momentum of liberal capitalism. Even as China's leadership encourages nationalism, it believes that a foreign policy based on balance of power is far preferable to aggression. It hardly matters that the global elite have turned their gaze eastward as liberal-capitalist democracy suffers from political and economic stagnation. The China Model, a blueprint for successful state-controlled capitalism, has its admirers outside of China. Few Chinese, though, seriously suggest that other countries should try to imitate it.

Not that a similar exercise hasn't been tried recently: former U.S. president Bill Clinton met in 1999 with European leaders for a conference entitled, "Progressive Governance in the 21st Century" to discuss the "Third Way," the middle ground between socialism and capitalism. Slavoj Zizek's lament on the proceedings still rings true today:

    The true message of the notion of the Third Way is that there is no Second Way, no alternative to global capitalism, so that, in a kind of mocking pseudo-Hegelian negation of negation, the Third Way brings us back to the first and only way.

Liberal capitalism looks all the more permanent as it remains impervious to serious reform and rebuffs critics and protest with seemingly little consequence. Doomsday scenarios are merely used to stock the cocktail armory of the Davos Man. The workers in Solidarity, the opposition Green Movement in Iran, the salaried bourgeoisie in Tunisia and Egypt, the jobless in Spain and Greece, the rioters in Bangkok, and the protesters at Tiananmen—among many others—rose up to obtain what they felt they were owed. But with few exceptions, their demands have been assimilated into a cry for more liberal democracy—for a rightful place in the global capitalist order, not socialism.

In the wake of the global financial crisis in 2008, a chorus of pundits joked that China may be the one to save capitalism, and they weren't so wrong. China finds itself in a position not unlike that of its geopolitical foes at the advent of widespread communist revolution: questions abound about the country's place in history and foreign values that are anathema to its traditional way of life. China's elites view liberal democracy with the same wariness and disdain that many Western capitalists felt for communism in the latter's heyday. The CCP may be quite happy to replicate the outcome of that rivalry.

A lot of interesting points mentioned here, but IMO the two most interesting are:

1. The fact that desire for reform (over which the elite is deeply divided) springs more from the fear the current unbalanced system can't survive forever, rather than liberal critiques about its inherent inequity.... and that even most critics of the Party recognize its continued importance in protecting China from chaos.
2. The implied lack of intellectual substance and depth that characterizes Chinese society in its study of the liberal arts, in large part because of the temptation to use everything as propaganda (or, unstated, suppress what isn't useful). 

IMO, as per point 2, it's difficult to imagine China becoming a first-rate power until it has something worthwhile to offer in the marketplace of ideas, and that doesn't seem to be anywhere close to happening now.

I also liked de Tocqueville's incredibly prescient characteriziation of "old", Imperial China: 
Quote"tranquility without happiness, industry without progress, stability without force, and material order without public morality."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on June 17, 2013, 07:13:27 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/world/asia/chinas-great-uprooting-moving-250-million-into-cities.html?_r=0


Moving 250 million farmers off their land and into the city. I guess they have to fill the empty ghost cities somehow.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on June 19, 2013, 04:13:40 PM
China to the US: "That's enough of your dirty trash": http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2013/0619/China-puts-up-a-green-wall-to-US-trash?nav=88-csm_category-storyList
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 20, 2013, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2013, 04:13:40 PM
China to the US: "That's enough of your dirty trash": http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2013/0619/China-puts-up-a-green-wall-to-US-trash?nav=88-csm_category-storyList

reads like new business opportunities elsewhere
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on August 22, 2013, 10:58:49 AM
Bo Xilai's trial has begun.

In something of a departure from standard, the trial is being covered with live updates on Weibo. As well, somewhat unusually, Bo has denied himself guilty of wrongdoing.

BBC covers it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-23777038
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
lolz, the bitch flipped.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on August 22, 2013, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: Jacob on August 22, 2013, 10:58:49 AM
As well, somewhat unusually, Bo has denied himself guilty of wrongdoing.
Is it a crime in China to deny your guilt?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on August 22, 2013, 12:02:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 22, 2013, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: Jacob on August 22, 2013, 10:58:49 AM
As well, somewhat unusually, Bo has denied himself guilty of wrongdoing.
Is it a crime in China to deny your guilt?

Nope, but as I understand it, it's pretty uncommon for many trials (as it apparently is in Japan). Things usually don't go to trial until the outcome is established (whether through evidence, confession, or fiat from higher up).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on October 07, 2013, 10:09:28 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/24/smithfield-vote-china-deal/2859551/

Our bacon and ham is no longer safe.  :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 07, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
Quote"We are pleased with the outcome of today's vote," said Larry Pope, chief executive officer of Smithfield. "This is a great transaction for all Smithfield stakeholders, as well as for American farmers and U.S. agriculture.

Lulz, which of these things is not like the others?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 10:17:19 PM
 :huh:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 07, 2013, 10:20:31 PM
 :huh:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 10:21:05 PM
I give up: which of these things is not like the others?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 07, 2013, 10:29:45 PM
Go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 07, 2013, 10:53:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 10:21:05 PM
I give up: which of these things is not like the others?
Even if you don't agree with him, you know Seedy well enough that you know which one he means. What's the point of asking the question when you already know the answer? 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 11:02:39 PM
You think he was referring to the evil stakeholders, who only care about pulling up their stakes?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 07, 2013, 11:15:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 11:02:39 PM
You think he was referring to the evil stakeholders, who only care about pulling up their stakes?
The odds are 110%
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 11:16:15 PM
Do you understand what stakeholder means Timmy?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on October 08, 2013, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 11:16:15 PM
Do you understand what stakeholder means Timmy?

Oh, I know this one.  It's a person who kills vampires.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on October 08, 2013, 12:22:13 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 11:16:15 PM
Do you understand what stakeholder means Timmy?
I understand what CdM thinks stakeholder means, which means I am able to easily comprehend his statement.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 21, 2013, 09:27:18 AM
QuoteMore validation for Asia Pivoters: China is making huge inroads when it comes to building its arms industry and the U.S. is losing out. Look at this NYT Page Oner today, by Edward Wong and Nicola Clark, reporting from Beijing:

The New York Times
October 20, 2013

China's Arms Industry Makes Global Inroads

By EDWARD WONG and NICOLA CLARK

BEIJING — From the moment Turkey announced plans two years ago to acquire a long-range missile defense system, the multibillion-dollar contract from a key NATO member appeared to be an American company's to lose.

For years, Turkey's military had relied on NATO-supplied Patriot missiles, built by the American companies Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, to defend its skies, and the system was fully compatible with the air-defense platforms operated by other members of the alliance.

There were other contenders for the deal, of course. Rival manufacturers in Russia and Europe made bids. Turkey rejected those — but not in favor of the American companies. Its selection last month of a little-known Chinese defense company, China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corporation, stunned the military-industrial establishment in Washington and Brussels.

The sale was especially unusual because the Chinese missile defense system, known as the HQ-9, would be difficult to integrate with existing NATO equipment. China Precision is also subject to sanctions from the United States for selling technologies that the United States says could help Iran, Syria and North Korea develop unconventional weapons. A State Department spokeswoman said this month that American officials had expressed to the Turkish government "serious concerns" about the deal, which has not yet been signed.

Industry executives and arms-sales analysts say the Chinese probably beat out their more established rivals by significantly undercutting them on price, offering their system at $3 billion. Nonetheless, Turkey's selection of a Chinese state-owned manufacturer is a breakthrough for China, a nation that has set its sights on moving up the value chain in arms technology and establishing itself as a credible competitor in the global weapons market.

"This is a remarkable win for the Chinese arms industry," said Pieter Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which tracks arms sales and transfers.

In the past, Chinese companies have been known mainly as suppliers of small arms, but that is changing quickly. From drones to frigates to fighter jets, the companies are aggressively pushing foreign sales of high-tech hardware, mostly in the developing world. Russian companies are feeling the greatest pressure, but American and other Western companies are also increasingly running into the Chinese.

"China will be competing with us in many, many domains, and in the high end," said Marwan Lahoud, the head of strategy and marketing at European Aeronautic Defense and Space, Europe's largest aerospace company. "Out of 100 campaigns, that is, the commercial prospects we have, we may have the Chinese in front of us among the competitors in about three or four. They have the full range of capabilities, and they are offering them."

The Stockholm institute released a report this year on global weapons transfers that found the volume of Chinese conventional weapons exports — which included high-end aircraft, missiles, ships and artillery — jumped by 162 percent from 2008 to 2012, compared with the previous five years. Pakistan is the leading customer. The institute now estimates that China is the fifth-largest arms exporter in the world, ahead of Britain. From 2003 to 2007, China ranked eighth.

China's foreign arms sales are also rising fast in dollar terms. According to IHS Jane's, an industry consulting and analysis company, Chinese exports have nearly doubled over the past five years to $2.2 billion, surpassing Canada and Sweden, and making China the world's eighth-largest exporter by value.

The total global arms trade revenue in 2012 was estimated to be $73.5 billion, and the United States had a 39 percent share, according to IHS Jane's.

Xu Guangyu, a retired major general in the People's Liberation Army and director of the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, said in an interview that the push by Chinese companies to develop and sell higher-tech arms was "a very normal phenomenon."

"In arms manufacturing, China is trying to increase the quality and reduce price," he said. "We're driven by competition."

Mr. Xu said that besides pricing, Chinese companies had another advantage: they do not "make demands over other governments' status and internal policies." He added: "Our policy of noninterference applies here. Whoever is in the government, whoever has diplomatic status with us, we can talk about arms sales with them."

Chinese officials know that China's encroachment on Western-dominated military markets raises concerns. When asked about the missile-defense sale to Turkey, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said, "China's military exports do no harm to peace, security and stability," and do not "interfere with the internal affairs of recipient countries."

The largest Chinese arms production companies, all state-owned, declined interview requests. Their finances are opaque, though there are some statistics on their Web sites and in the state news media.

The China North Industries Group Corporation, or the Norinco Group, said on its Web site that its profits in 2012 were 9.81 billion renminbi, or about $1.6 billion, a 45 percent increase from 2010. Its revenues in 2012 were 361.6 billion renminbi, or about $59 billion, a 53 percent increase over 2010. Another company, the China South Industries Group Corporation, or CSGC, said on its Web site that it had profits of about $1 billion in 2011, on revenue of about $45 billion, both big increases over 2008.

China's investment has been heaviest in fighter planes — both traditional and stealth versions — as well as in jet engines, an area in which China had until now been dependent on Western and Russian partners, said Guy Anderson, a senior military industry analyst in London with IHS Jane's.

"China has been throwing billions and billions of dollars at research and development," he said. "They also have a strategy of using the gains they get from foreign partnerships to benefit their industrial sector. So they should not have any trouble catching up with their Western competitors over the medium term, and certainly over the long term."

He estimated that China was still a decade away from competing head-to-head with Western nations on the technology itself. But Chinese equipment is priced lower and could become popular in emerging markets, including in African and Latin American nations.

"We are in an era of 'good enough' — the 90 percent solution that will do the job at the best possible price," Mr. Anderson said. "In some cases, that may even mean buying commercial equipment, upgrading it slightly and painting it khaki."

New customers for Chinese equipment include Argentina, which in 2011 signed a deal with the Chinese company Avicopter to build Z-11 light helicopters under license. Mass production for the Argentine military began this year, and 40 helicopters are expected to be built over the next several years. The value of the contract has not been made public.

Companies selling drones, another focal point in the Chinese arms industry, are ubiquitous at arms and aviation shows. At an aviation exposition in Beijing in late September, one Chinese company, China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation, had on display a model of a CH-4 reconnaissance and combat drone, with four models of missiles next to it.

Though the drone had been "designed for export," one company representative said, there were no foreign buyers yet. The company was still being licensed by the government to sell the aircraft abroad. He added that the drone was not yet up to par with some foreign models, and that the engine was a foreign make, though other parts — including the missiles — had been developed in China.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China, or AVIC, had on display a model of a Wing Loong, the best-known Chinese drone export, which sells for about $1 million, less than similar American and Israeli drone models. An article in People's Daily said the export certificate for the Wing Loong, or Pterodactyl, was approved in June 2009, and it was first exported in 2011.

At the Paris Air Show in June, Ma Zhiping, president of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, told Global Times, another state-run newspaper, that "quite a few countries" had bought the Wing Loong, which resembles the American-made Predator. Clients were in Africa and Asia, he said.

Two fighter jets made by Chinese companies are being closely watched by industry analysts and foreign companies for their export potential. One is Shenyang Aircraft's J-31, a fighter jet that Chinese officials say has stealth abilities. A People's Daily report last month said that the J-31 was being made by Shenyang, an AVIC subsidiary, mostly for export, citing an interview with Zhang Zhaozhong, a rear admiral in the Chinese Navy. In March, the airplane's chief designer, Sun Cong, told People's Daily that the J-31 could become China's main next-generation carrier-borne fighter jet.

The other jet is the JF-17, a less-sophisticated aircraft that an American official said had been in the works for about two decades in an "on-again, off-again" project. The jet was ostensibly the product of a joint venture between Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation, also an AVIC subsidiary, but China did the real work, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the secrecy surrounding military projects. So far, Pakistan is the only client, and the official said he believed Pakistan had made a "political decision" to buy it.

China is Pakistan's biggest ally, and each relies on the other to help counter India. Besides the JF-17, the two nations have had official joint production agreements on a frigate, a battle tank and a small aircraft.

A defense official from Japan, a territorial rival of China that monitors its arms trade closely, said Chinese jets still had big shortcomings that could hurt international sales; most notably, China cannot make reliable engines or avionics, he said. The JF-17 uses a Russian engine.

"I believe they can make a few very good engines in the laboratory, but they can't make it in the factory, kind of mass produce it in factories, because of lack of quality control and maybe experience," he said.

He added that Chinese engineers had been trying to develop an engine, the WS-10, a copy of a Russian model, but had been having problems.
[/b]
It is not uncommon for customers to overcome weaknesses in Chinese manufacturing by buying Chinese platforms and outfitting them with better Western equipment. Algeria placed an order last year for three Chinese corvettes, but is outfitting the ships with radar and communications equipment from Thales Nederland, a unit of the Thales Group, based in France. Thailand has been awarding contracts to the Saab Group, based in Sweden, to upgrade Chinese-built frigates, said Ben Moores, a senior analyst at IHS Jane's.

This year, a Chinese company was competing against foreign counterparts, including at least one American company, for a $1 billion Thai contract for naval frigates, but lost to Daewoo of South Korea.

As China moves to catch up with established Western rivals, competing not only on price but also with comparable technology, Hakan Buskhe, chief executive of Saab, said his company and others would be likely to find themselves under pressure to cut their own research and development costs to lower pricing — a trend that could benefit North American and European governments looking to squeeze more ability out of shrinking defense budgets.

"We need to be able to develop more for less," he said.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on October 21, 2013, 09:42:44 AM
I can't help but think China are following Gilette tactics.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on October 21, 2013, 10:23:19 AM
The Chi-Coms sell more guns than we do? That shit ain't right.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 21, 2013, 11:05:48 AM
I thought the Turkish deal was not a done deal yet.

Also I believe the key selling point for the Chinese proposal was greater scope of local (Turkish) manufacture of components and other "offsets"
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2013, 12:26:11 PM
Trials against prominent anti-corruption campaigners began today.  This follows a sweep against prominent bloggers "Big Ys" who criticized Party corruption as well.
Xi's revivial of self-criticism, 'rectification' and other hoary Maoist nostrums also been well covered.
May be too early to tell, but looks increasingly like Xi is just Bo-lite and the Party leadership is in a reactionary phase, at least at the political/civil society level (there are some signs of willingess to move forward gradually on economic reform).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on October 29, 2013, 07:06:40 PM
Well, the Party has promised "unprecedented" economic reforms at the upcoming Third Plenum. 

Re:  the self-criticism and other Maoist type campaigns, I imagine Xi believes there is simply no other way (other than liberalization of the political system which is not an option) to curb corruption and abuse on the part of Party officials.  Of course, it is not likely to be terribly effective.  The system is utterly rotten, as the only reason to join the Party now is self-enrichment and personal power - and the people know it.  At least this way the Party can show that it is trying to improve the conduct of its officials, with the added hope that, hey, maybe it will actually make a dent in the ethics of its members.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 04, 2013, 11:19:57 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 29, 2013, 07:06:40 PM
Well, the Party has promised "unprecedented" economic reforms at the upcoming Third Plenum. 

Re:  the self-criticism and other Maoist type campaigns, I imagine Xi believes there is simply no other way (other than liberalization of the political system which is not an option) to curb corruption and abuse on the part of Party officials.  Of course, it is not likely to be terribly effective.  The system is utterly rotten, as the only reason to join the Party now is self-enrichment and personal power - and the people know it.  At least this way the Party can show that it is trying to improve the conduct of its officials, with the added hope that, hey, maybe it will actually make a dent in the ethics of its members.

That's the positive view. The more cynical view is simply that he's demonstrating and thus reinforcing his power.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on November 04, 2013, 09:33:29 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2013, 11:19:57 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on October 29, 2013, 07:06:40 PM
Well, the Party has promised "unprecedented" economic reforms at the upcoming Third Plenum. 

Re:  the self-criticism and other Maoist type campaigns, I imagine Xi believes there is simply no other way (other than liberalization of the political system which is not an option) to curb corruption and abuse on the part of Party officials.  Of course, it is not likely to be terribly effective.  The system is utterly rotten, as the only reason to join the Party now is self-enrichment and personal power - and the people know it.  At least this way the Party can show that it is trying to improve the conduct of its officials, with the added hope that, hey, maybe it will actually make a dent in the ethics of its members.

That's the positive view. The more cynical view is simply that he's demonstrating and thus reinforcing his power.

Yeah, no doubt reinforcement of his authority is part of it too.  Any oligarch who has - arguably to an extent greater than his two predecessors - managed to gain greater control of an organization like the CCP's ruling structure knows a few things about maintenance and building of power...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 04, 2013, 09:40:07 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 21, 2013, 09:42:44 AM
I can't help but think China are following Gilette tactics.
Didn't the Soviets sell more than the US during the Cold War.

The West, especially the US is peddling luxury goods, it's only natural they'll have smaller market share. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 14, 2013, 06:38:54 PM
Good little article in the FT today (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9bfbdad0-4c6d-11e3-923d-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2kfIHPtsv), here is an excerpt I found interesting:

QuoteThe government can tell regional officials that it wants more innovation, more consumption and less investment, but in their annual cadre evaluations about 70 per cent of the points are awarded for raising GDP and avoiding any unrest or embarrassing scandal in their jurisdiction.

Few points are given for stated government priorities such as cleaning up the environment, in part because it is so difficult to measure success

This gets to the limitation of a one-party system, no matter how well staffed and run.  The only way to get feedback on performance is to measure outcomes, and so there is a natural and unavoidable tendency to privilege the priorities that can be most easily measured.

That is not a huge problem in early developmental stages, where the key priority is to lift people out of grinding priority.  A straight GDP target does a reasonably good job.

But China is past that point and transitioning from the need to focus on problems of poverty to problems of affluence.  Things like environmental quality, workplace safety, educational quality and equity, quality provision of health services (symptomized by the fact that doctors in China tend to be poorly paid, relatively low social status, and subject to alarming incidents of violence from disgruntled patients), affordable quality housing, elder care, ample and diverse leisure options, etc.  These are things whose outcomes are not easily trackable by simple quantitative metrics.  They all are strongly correlated with overall quality of life, and hence in a competitive political system there is likely to be strong feedback through the electoral process, and in the proliferation of NGO activity.  But in a political system with a party monopoly and strong constraints on NGOs, the ability to get feedback on these softer outcomes is much more limited.

No country without very substantial mineral wealth has ever been able to cross the developmental threshhold to became an a truly affluent nation while still maintaining a monopolized political authority.  The experience of Taiwan and Korea further suggests that the PRC cannot bank on a cultural exception.   Yet the preliminary indications are that the Xi regime has no intention of building on the limited and mostly localized experimentation with electoral competition by prior post-Mao regimes.  The PRC is about to cross into unprecedented territory.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 15, 2013, 06:45:01 AM
So what do you think will happen?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 15, 2013, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 15, 2013, 06:45:01 AM
So what do you think will happen?

Don't know.
History suggests the odds are against the CP retaining monopoly power if China is to continue to develop.  Either there will be a guided transition to more pluralistic forms of politics, popular uprising that forces democratization, or China's development will stall.

However.
The CP in China is an unusual organization.  It is highly meritocratic, (internally) competitive, open to outside talent, and pragmatic.  Internally and sometimes publicly, it engages in deep reflection and self-criticism.  The fact that it has been able to achieve such extraordinary developmental results in such a short time while maintaining political stability is an impressive achievement and testament to the Party's adaptability and resoucefulness.  It is true, of course, that the Party in nonetheless prone -- as all one-party collegial structures -- to corruption, cliquism, and over-emphasis on consensus (or the appearance over consensus).  And it is also true that the challenge of suppressing the natural middle class desire for greater political participation and voice will only increase as that middle class grows in number, in affluence and in education.

It looks like the CP's goal is to move to Singapore-like soft authoritarianism where there is some room for popular political expression but one party rule is not seriously challenged.  But that is an unusual institutional arrangement that has arisen in a very particular and peculiar context.  It will be an incredible challenge for a vast, continent spanning nation of over a billion diverse people to follow in the footsteps of a tiny entrepot city-state.

Only time will tell.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on November 15, 2013, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 08, 2013, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 07, 2013, 11:16:15 PM
Do you understand what stakeholder means Timmy?

Oh, I know this one.  It's a person who kills vampires.

Well, I thought it was funny. <_<
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Queequeg on November 16, 2013, 01:38:26 PM
QuoteThe CP in China is an unusual organization.
I was thinking about this.  Isn't it somewhat similar at least to other successful, meritocratic autocracies?  There's a lot of overly enthusiastic comparisons between Prussia and modern China, but I think it's true historically that some autocracies are more efficient than others.  I just read Acemoglu's Why Nations Fail and was ultimately disappointed that he failed to talk about the development of Germany or Meiji Japan.  Also, I'm pissed that he seems to allow people to pronounce his name As-em-og-lu when it should be Aj-em-oogh-lu.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on November 16, 2013, 02:17:47 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 16, 2013, 01:38:26 PM
Also, I'm pissed that he seems to allow people to pronounce his name As-em-og-lu when it should be Aj-em-oogh-lu.

Even for you, this is a silly one.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 16, 2013, 01:38:26 PM
I just read Acemoglu's Why Nations Fail and was ultimately disappointed that he failed to talk about the development of Germany or Meiji Japan.  Also, I'm pissed that he seems to allow people to pronounce his name As-em-og-lu when it should be Aj-em-oogh-lu.

The Prussian regime democratized, and to the extent it held tight to its autocratic elements, that didn't work out so well.  Same can be said for Japan, and for Japan the real developmental breakthrough came after WW2. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on November 19, 2013, 04:11:49 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 19, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 16, 2013, 01:38:26 PM
I just read Acemoglu's Why Nations Fail and was ultimately disappointed that he failed to talk about the development of Germany or Meiji Japan.  Also, I'm pissed that he seems to allow people to pronounce his name As-em-og-lu when it should be Aj-em-oogh-lu.

The Prussian regime democratized, and to the extent it held tight to its autocratic elements, that didn't work out so well.  Same can be said for Japan, and for Japan the real developmental breakthrough came after WW2.

It could also be said that the real developmental breakthrough for Germany came after the combination of the world wars.  It democratized after WWI but that was quickly swept away by the Nazis.  Prior to WWI the monarchy in Germany still had signficant power.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2013, 10:31:47 PM
QuoteThird Plenary Session Calls for PLA Reform and Restructuring
Publication: China Brief Volume: 13 Issue: 23
November 20, 2013 10:11 AM Age: 2 days
By: Kevin McCauley

The reforms announced by the recent Third Plenary Session of the 18th Central Committee were headlined by economic pronouncements, but also contained ambitious language on the reform and restructuring of the Chinese military. The details remain sketchy, but according to the communiqué and subsequent press articles areas include adjusting the force mix according to the security requirements of various directions, reducing non-combat institutions and personnel, greater innovation in military theory, strengthening military leadership, building a system to generate greater warfighting capability, reform of military colleges and unit joint training, non-commissioned officer (NCO) system, strengthening military-civilian integration, improving weapons development and procurement, and improving the joint operation command system (Xinhua, November 16; on NCO reform, see China Brief, Volume XI, Issues 18 and 20).

Most of these proposals are not new. Rather, they are extensions of previous rounds of reform aimed at streamlining and modernizing the Chinese military, and political endorsements of reform ideas that have already circulated among military research institutions. Of all the proposals, institutional and cultural changes within the Chinese military could be the most important. A National Defense University (NDU) publication argued that the parochial interests of the services and institutional conflicts within the People's Liberation Army (PLA) are the main constraints to transformational efforts (SOSS, p. 244; 100 Questions,  pp. 196–197 * ).  Overcoming them would require a bold initiative to alter the PLA's command and institutional structure , which currently give the Army a dominant role. Since many of the newly announced reforms have been modernization areas for the past decade, the proposal could indicate that previous efforts have fallen short of the mark, and require adjustments and reinforcements.

The 2003–2005 PLA reductions included non-combat personnel and institutions, streamlining staffs, and some consolidation of military educational institutes. Since then, the PLA has conducted additional adjustments of force structure and reform of professional military education, the NCO corps, as well as researching new operational theories and methods such as integrated joint and system of systems operations. Recent PLA publications have stressed force structure, command, educational, unit training, and institutional changes required to support these emerging theoretical concepts (see China Brief, Volume XII, Issue 8, "System of Systems Operational Capability: Impact on PLA Transformation").

Many of the reform areas announced by the Third Plenary Session have been a focus of discussion in PLA publications during the past few years to support the implementation of joint and system of systems operations capabilities that could significantly increase PLA warfighting capabilities. The development of an integrated command information system and creation of a joint command structure are required to support these theoretical developments. The PLA is slowing developing a modern command information system for joint command (C4ISR), and there have been calls to create theater joint operational commands to replace the current Military Region headquarters, which are dominated by the ground forces. Several different command structures have been proposed, including functional-based and organization-based systems (China Military Online, July 1, November 25; SOSS, pp. 244–254).

PLA publications have also anticipated the Third Plenary Session's call for the need to streamline the force structure, optimize force composition and combined arms capabilities, and reduce non-combat units. However, forces that the PLA views as key to evolving operational theories will continue to expand and modernize, including Army Aviation, special operations, PLA Air Force (PLAAF) offensive forces, psychological warfare, cyber operations, and space operations forces (SOSS, p. 341; 100 Questions,  pp. 177–183).

System of systems and joint operations theory are already changing operational patterns and methods, leading to new educational and training requirements to address the lack of personnel with high-tech and joint operations experience, and train units on integrated information systems. Cultivating skilled personnel, especially joint commanders and staff, is viewed as critical to this effort (SOSS, pp. 342–344). Personnel training recommendations include: reforming academic training program content; increasing job rotation and cross-training efforts; expanding opportunities for joint command personnel to study abroad; and integrating academic institutes with exercises (SOSS, pp. 347–351; 100 Questions, p. 236).

Some of the reform areas coming from the Third Plenary Session are already the focus of improvements and change within the PLA. Equipment modernization, unit training, professional military education, and adjustments to force structure have been ongoing to some degree over the past decade or more, although the quality of the reforms is difficult to gauge. Developing a joint operations command structure, particularly at the theater level might be the most important recommendation, and would be a start to changing institutional and cultural impediments to transformation.

Since details of the renewed efforts have not been announced, it is too soon to say whether inclusion in a political document will lend impetus to reform and restructuring. A South China Morning Post article quoted current and retired PLA officers suggesting that any reform and restructuring efforts will be limited in scope, with small adjustments and improvements, but no sweeping changes (November 16). This assessment accords with this analyst's observations of change within the PLA, which is generally slow, incremental, and steady towards the overall goals, with adjustments through the process as necessary. Ongoing educational reforms within the PLA will only slowly change the culture and promote greater jointness within the PLA. Implementing theater joint operations commands would be a bold gesture that could indicate a serious move to reform the PLA at a more rapid pace.

* Information System-Based System of Systems Operations Study, (Beijing: National Defense University Press, 2012), referenced as SSOS.

Information System-based System of Systems Operational Capability Building in 100 Questions (Beijing: National Defense University Press, Jun 2011), referenced as 100 Questions.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on November 22, 2013, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 19, 2013, 04:11:49 PM
It could also be said that the real developmental breakthrough for Germany came after the combination of the world wars.

I doubt it.  Germany's relative global economic, cultural and scientific standing in 1914 was far greater than anything post-1945.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on November 22, 2013, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Camerus on November 22, 2013, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 19, 2013, 04:11:49 PM
It could also be said that the real developmental breakthrough for Germany came after the combination of the world wars.

I doubt it.  Germany's relative global economic, cultural and scientific standing in 1914 was far greater than anything post-1945.

Thats nice.  We were talking about the democratization process.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 23, 2013, 10:12:15 PM
QuoteHagel: U.S. 'deeply concerned' with China air defense map

Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said Saturday the United States is "deeply concerned" over China's move to establish an air defense zone over a string of disputed islands in the East China Sea.

"We view this development as a destabilizing attempt to alter the status quo in the region," Hagel said in a statement. "This unilateral action increases the risk of misunderstanding and miscalculations."

The Associated Press reports that the Chinese Defense Ministry issued a map showing the new East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone, which encompasses what the Chinese call the Diaoyu islands. The move is seen as an aggressive step against Japan, which bought what it calls the Senkaku islands from private owners in 2012. The islands are uninhabited, but are believed to rest near large underwater oil reserves. Taiwan also claims possession of the islands.

Hagel said the map will have no effect on how the United States conducts military operations in the area, and that concerns are being conveyed to China "through diplomatic and military channels." Hagel also said the United States believes that the Senkaku islands are included as part of Japan in the U.S. Japan Mutual Defense Treaty.

In a separate statement, Secretary of State John Kerry urged China to exercise restraint with foreign aircraft that don't identify themelves inside the air defense zone.

"Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident," Kerry said. "Freedom of overflight and other internationally lawful uses of sea and airspace are essential to prosperity, stability, and security in the Pacific."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on November 23, 2013, 10:16:08 PM
Shove a couple of carriers in there. No lube.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 23, 2013, 10:28:18 PM
From the Home Office in Beijing, British Columbia--

Quote Announcement of the Aircraft Identification Rules for the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone of the P.R.C.
( Source: Xinhua  )         2013-November-23 10:00

BEIJING, Nov. 23 (Xinhua) -- China's Ministry of National Defense issued an announcement of the aircraft identification rules for the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone of the People's Republic of China. Following is the full text:

Announcement of the Aircraft Identification Rules for the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone of the People's Republic of China

Issued by the Ministry of National Defense on November 23

The Ministry of National Defense of the People's Republic of China, in accordance with the Statement by the Government of the People's Republic of China on Establishing the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone, now announces the Aircraft Identification Rules for the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone as follows:

First, aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone must abide by these rules.

Second, aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone must provide the following means of identification:

1. Flight plan identification. Aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone should report the flight plans to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China or the Civil Aviation Administration of China.

2. Radio identification. Aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone must maintain the two-way radio communications, and respond in a timely and accurate manner to the identification inquiries from the administrative organ of the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone or the unit authorized by the organ.

3. Transponder identification. Aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone, if equipped with the secondary radar transponder, should keep the transponder working throughout the entire course.

4. Logo identification. Aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone must clearly mark their nationalities and the logo of their registration identification in accordance with related international treaties.

Third, aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone should follow the instructions of the administrative organ of the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone or the unit authorized by the organ. China's armed forces will adopt defensive emergency measures to respond to aircraft that do not cooperate in the identification or refuse to follow the instructions.

Fourth, the Ministry of National Defense of the People's Republic of China is the administrative organ of the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone.

Fifth, the Ministry of National Defense of the People's Republic of China is responsible for the explanation of these rules.

Sixth, these rules will come into force at 10 a.m. November 23, 2013.

The PRC loves to orchestrate their use of force demonstrations down to the minutae--but it only works if the intended audience plays along. 
And they specifically do it at identified times of opportunity when, say, the USS George Washington just happens to be busy assisting in drying off a shitload of wet Filipinos.  SMELLS LIKE WET FLIP FLOPS

But by all means, send up some hot shot pilots in your shiny new SU-27s to play Maverick and Goose games with the JASDF, and see what the fuck happens.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 23, 2013, 10:51:04 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.xinhuanet.com%2Fenglish%2Fchina%2F2013-11%2F23%2F132911634_11n.jpg&hash=0e190b8643a8e6c7db29a5c5969043be7c135545)

QuoteBEIJING, Nov. 23 (Xinhua) -- The People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force conducted its first air patrol after the establishment of the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone.

  Shen Jinke, spokesman for the PLA Air Force, said that two large scouts carried out the patrol mission, with early warning aircraft and fighters providing support and cover.

  "The patrol is in line with international common practices, and the normal flight of international flights will not be affected," Shen said.

  Shen said that the Chinese armed forces are capable of effective control over the zone, and will take measures to deal with air threats to protect the security of the country's airspace.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 24, 2013, 03:06:06 AM
Aka china decides to act like a dick and fly into Japanese airspace
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Viking on November 24, 2013, 05:50:58 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 15, 2013, 10:10:24 AM
However.
The CP in China is an unusual organization.  It is highly meritocratic, (internally) competitive, open to outside talent, and pragmatic.  Internally and sometimes publicly, it engages in deep reflection and self-criticism.  The fact that it has been able to achieve such extraordinary developmental results in such a short time while maintaining political stability is an impressive achievement and testament to the Party's adaptability and resoucefulness.  It is true, of course, that the Party in nonetheless prone -- as all one-party collegial structures -- to corruption, cliquism, and over-emphasis on consensus (or the appearance over consensus).  And it is also true that the challenge of suppressing the natural middle class desire for greater political participation and voice will only increase as that middle class grows in number, in affluence and in education.

Only time will tell.

Time did tell, this is how china has been run for most of the last 2500 years. The mandarins have taken over the kitchen and there is no emperor to shake things up anymore. This is part of the standard chinese cycle or Inspiration-Stagnation-Deterioration-Chaos-Inspiration. Chinese history has been about getting to Stagnation and staying there for as long as possible.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on November 24, 2013, 07:58:32 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 22, 2013, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Camerus on November 22, 2013, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 19, 2013, 04:11:49 PM
It could also be said that the real developmental breakthrough for Germany came after the combination of the world wars.

I doubt it.  Germany's relative global economic, cultural and scientific standing in 1914 was far greater than anything post-1945.

Thats nice.  We were talking about the democratization process.

If you were just talking about that, then you comment was utterly meaningless and obvious. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on November 24, 2013, 08:44:44 AM
Quote from: Camerus on November 24, 2013, 07:58:32 AM
If you were just talking about that, then you comment was utterly meaningless and obvious.

Obvious, sure, but hardly meaningless.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 25, 2013, 12:35:50 AM
There shall be no peace in our time.

http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-sources-the-sino-american-spiral-9088
QuoteThe Sources of the Sino-American Spiral
Share on email Share on twitter Share on facebook Share on digg | More Sharing
Jennifer Lind, Daryl Press

September 18, 2013

The paramount question looming over twenty-first century international politics is: will the United States and China get along?

Most national-security experts express guarded optimism. Although rising powers have historically clashed with their established rivals—adopting revisionist foreign policies to secure more influence, territory, or status—this time, people say, is different. China is a major stakeholder in the current economic order and has no reason to overthrow the very system that has allowed it to grow rich and powerful. The regional maritime disputes that do exist [4]—over small uninhabitable islets—may arouse emotions but do not demonstrate a deep revisionist streak in Beijing. In short, a status quo Washington and a status quo Beijing need not clash.

But pondering the future of East Asia—and great power relations—in terms of whether China will adopt a "status-quo" or "revisionist" grand strategy obscures the real sources of Sino-American conflict. It ignores the range of options available to Beijing, and it pins the future on China's strategic decisions alone.

In reality, the tenor of great-power relations in the coming decades will depend on the interaction of U.S. and Chinese foreign policies—which collide to a far greater degree than is frequently acknowledged. In fact, smooth relations between the United States and China will only be possible in the unlikely event that China adopts an extremely docile national-security strategy, or in the equally unlikely event that the United States cedes its dominant position in the Western Pacific.

CHINESE MENU

Beijing has a broader array of options than the categories "status quo" or "revisionist" imply. What is striking, however, is that all but one of its options put Beijing and Washington on a collision course.

At one extreme, China might continue its rise as an economic powerhouse without substantially enhancing its military might, and without seeking to alter the international order in East Asia or the world.

The logic of this "Rich Nation, Weak Army" strategy is straightforward: China has enjoyed spectacular economic success for four decades while pursuing Deng Xiaoping's strategy of strategic restraint—so why rock the boat now? Foreign-policy restraint has allowed China to focus on its homeland security, prioritize butter over guns, and benefit from the fact that other countries—particularly the United States—have borne the costs of protecting the global order. Continuing this modest strategy would help reassure Beijing's wary neighbors, minimize the odds of conflict with the United States, and allow Beijing to concentrate on China's many domestic challenges (social, demographic, environmental, and institutional).

According to this grand strategy, Beijing would pursue its foreign policy goals through multilateral institutions and posture its military for modest and internationally sanctioned missions such as peacekeeping, disaster relief and antipiracy operations. Its national-security policy and military would be akin to that of Australia, Indonesia or the Philippines. Skeptics might note that this strategy entails, de facto, relying upon the United States to ensure global order and protect China's interests. True; but modern China has never been able to defend its airspace or coastal waters from the major military powers, let alone project military power far from its shores. And yet it has prospered.

Alternatively, Beijing might choose a strategy that reflects its emergence as the major regional power in East Asia. An accommodating version of a regionally focused strategy would seek to establish China as a major East Asian military power—while not changing the region's political and economic order. China would not become expansionist, overturn the existing liberal economic system, or try to expel the U.S. military from the region. Rather, the goals of this strategy are modest and the logic is straightforward: although the current liberal order is good for Beijing—and should continue—it is natural that a great power such as China be able to defend itself and its interests in its own backyard.

In a more assertive version of this regional strategy, China would seek to become not just a major regional power, but also the dominant one. This would not necessarily be accomplished through conquest or coercion; instead, Beijing would simply generate so much economic influence and military might that it would become obvious to the countries of East Asia that there is one natural leader of the region—and it is China. China's growing military capabilities would convince other East Asian countries that the United States could no longer reliably protect them. The goal: to ensure that the countries of East Asia begin to look to Beijing—even with gritted teeth—much as the countries in Eastern Europe look to Moscow, and those in Latin America look to Washington. In the long term, China would establish its own informal Monroe Doctrine: while of course other countries' ships would be welcome to sail through regional sea lanes, foreign military bases operated by regional outsiders would be as unwelcome in East Asia as they are now in the Americas.

To implement either version of this regional strategy, China would build the air and naval forces to control the airspace and waters out to a few hundred miles from the Chinese coast, and to project military power throughout maritime East Asia. Beijing would likely seek allies in the region to host Chinese military forces. The more assertive version would require the same sort of military forces—just more of them.

If Beijing chose to pursue a revisionist regional strategy, it would engage in diplomacy aimed at ousting the United States from the region. It would use various forms of influence and leverage to try to break up America's key alliances. China's diplomacy would seek to convince its neighbors of two things—first, that they can be just as rich, free, safe, and independent within a Chinese-led order as they are within the current order. Second, Beijing would seek to convince them that allying with powerful outsiders against China is a dangerous option—because eventually those outsiders will leave, and when they do, the neighbors will be left next to an unfriendly and regionally dominant Beijing.

Critics might protest that China would not want to topple the economic order that has promoted its rise—but there is nothing about even the more revisionist version of this strategy that would do this. This strategy would promote free trade and investment, and seek peaceful relations among the countries of East Asia, but would do so without the intrusions of a distant great power. Like Russia's dominance in Eastern Europe, and U.S. preeminence throughout North America, this strategy would establish China as the dominant player in East Asia.

A third overarching option for China: look beyond its region to become a global political and military power. China has global interests. It is a leader in international trade, a key player in currency and bond markets, a major target and sender of international investment. Its economy depends on access to distant energy supplies. And Chinese firms and people have spread across the world from Suriname to Iran, from Kazakhstan to Angola. Yet Beijing has limited ability to influence events around the world. In Europe, the members of the EU and the United States (through NATO) make the key decisions; the Persian Gulf is dominated by the members of the Gulf Cooperation Council and their U.S. partners. While China has a stake in all of these regions, it is marginalized. Under a global strategy, China would seek the global influence commensurate with power and global interests.

In a more benign version of a global strategy, China would merely seek greater influence around the world to ensure that its interests are respected. It would not try to remake the Persian Gulf or Latin America, or to push the United States out of any region. Rather, China as a status-quo global power would merely seek a portfolio of interests—which because of economic globalization now span the globe.

China might alternatively adopt a more revisionist global posture. (This is generally what people have in mind when they contemplate China as a "revisionist" great power.) This strategy would seek to reorder international politics and to minimize American power and influence around the world, by luring countries out of the U.S. orbit and by providing an alternative to opponents of the United States (through political support, trade agreements, security guarantees and arms sales). It would give cohesion to countries—such as Iran and Venezuela—that oppose the U.S.-led world order, yet are regionally dispersed and lack the coordination to effectively oppose Washington.

Pursuing either version of a global strategy would require increased defense spending—though perhaps merely maintaining China's current spending as a percentage of GDP, as Beijing's GDP increases—to develop global power-projection capabilities. A revisionist China would likely purvey an ideology or narrative that justified its own global authority and discredited American leadership. Fundamentally this strategy would be about shaping the world in a way that is most conducive to Chinese influence, by building alliances and a network of friends across the globe. Even the revisionist version of a global strategy is not necessarily aggressive or violent; it is about leadership—the same kind of strategy that the United States has followed for the past twenty years.

PEACE THROUGH DOMINANCE

Peaceful U.S.-China relations depend not merely on Chinese decisions, but on how they interact with the American national-security strategy. Like China, the United States has a menu of strategic options; unlike China, however, the United States has a well-established grand strategy, which includes longstanding alliances in East Asia.

Since the end of the Cold War, across four successive administrations, the United States has pursued a strikingly consistent national-security strategy—variously called "hegemony," "global leadership," or "deep engagement." While the specifics fluctuate, the core principles—exercising leadership and promoting stability through a global network of alliances—have remained constant.

To be sure, disagreements about implementation arise regularly. Liberals tend to favor humanitarian intervention, value broad international coalitions, and prefer to work through international institutions. Conservatives are more inclined to use force to prevent the spread of WMD, and worry less about passing a "global test" (as Secretary of State John Kerry famously commented as a presidential candidate) when they contemplate using force. But tactical disagreements should not obscure the underlying bipartisan consensus: the United States will exercise global leadership, and ensure stability, through a network of alliances and powerful military presence in critical regions.

To implement this strategy in East Asia, the United States pursues three benign-sounding objectives. First, assurance: the United States seeks to assure its friends that it will protect them in time of crisis or war, and that it can do so effectively. The goal of assurance is to convince U.S. allies to forego independent steps to protect themselves (e.g., building powerful conventional military forces or nuclear weapons)—because such steps could trigger arms races and upset the region's political and economic order.

A second American objective is deterrence. The United States seeks to dissuade potential adversaries from turning disagreements into crises, and to deter them from turning crises into wars.

Finally, the United States seeks to promote political and economic cooperation—thereby turning allies and potential adversaries into stakeholders in a mutually beneficial, peaceful and prosperous region.

None of these goals sound provocative—who would argue against promoting stability and cooperation? The potential for trouble lies in the strategy's military requirements.

Because of the structure of the U.S. alliance system, and the nature of modern naval warfare, the benign-sounding U.S. policy toward Asia requires not merely U.S. military presence in the region, it requires a substantial degree of military dominance. Depending on China's future national-security choices, U.S. military dominance may cause considerable friction with Beijing.

Two pillars of the U.S. strategy—assuring allies, and deterring potential adversaries—rest upon U.S. military dominance in the Western Pacific. Allies can only feel safe outsourcing their security to the United States if they are confident that in time of crisis or war, Washington will be able to defend them effectively. This means that U.S. allies must be sure that the U.S. military will be able to cross five thousand miles of ocean with enough military power to decisively defeat whoever is menacing them. If allies begin to doubt U.S. power projection capabilities, they will, quite reasonably, feel compelled to develop more military power of their own. Similarly, the U.S. strategy requires that adversaries have no practical means for keeping American power projection at bay. If adversaries believe that they can keep U.S. reinforcements out of the region, deterrence will be undermined. The cornerstone of the U.S. strategy in East Asia is thus the ability to bring decisive force to bear if needed.

The changing nature of warfare makes power projection across vast oceans increasingly difficult. Modern sensors—satellite-based, ground-based, on unmanned aerial vehicles, and underwater—make tracking ships at sea easier than ever before. Furthermore, long-range strike systems, such as ballistic missiles and antiship cruise missiles, make it easier to destroy lumbering ships once they've been located. The United States has other means of projecting power into East Asia—for example, using forward air bases—but those bases are also easy targets for missile strikes, and increasingly sophisticated air-defense systems threaten to keep U.S. aircraft far from enemy coasts. The central role of power projection in U.S. national-security strategy—and the growing threat to ships and forward bases—explains the U.S. Defense Department's focus over the past decade on the "antiaccess" threat, especially China's growing capabilities.

The U.S. military's answer to this problem (known as "AirSea Battle [5]") is straightforward: be prepared to defeat antiaccess forces by blinding enemy sensors, degrading their command and control systems, and destroying their most capable conventional strike systems (e.g., those that target U.S. ships and airfields). The point is that in the age of advanced sensors and lethal long-range missiles, projecting overwhelming power across an ocean requires the ability to blind, disrupt, and disarm one's enemies at the opening stages of conflict.

Critics accuse the U.S. military of exaggerating the China threat. These critics protest that China has only a fraction of U.S. military power, and they decry expensive new weapons to defeat antiaccess capabilities as provocative and unnecessary. But regardless of the aggregate balance of military power between the United States and China, the U.S. Navy and Air Force are correct that U.S. strategy in Asia hinges on the promise to bring overwhelming force to bear—despite the expanse of the Pacific Ocean and the growing threat to power-projection forces. If China can substantially impede U.S. access during a war, the U.S. strategy toward the region will unravel.

WINTER IS COMING

Given Washington's national-security strategy, the only Chinese policy that will not conflict with U.S. national-security goals is the most docile option—the strategy of "rich nation, weak army." If China pursues any of the other options—including the more defensive ones—U.S.-China relations are likely to grow much more conflictual. Even if Beijing merely wants to be Washington's peer in China's own backyard, that would threaten the U.S. ability to move military forces to and around East Asia, undermining the core of Washington's regional strategy. Those analysts who argue that a status-quo China need not conflict with the United States underestimate the extent to which Chinese and American grand strategies are on trajectories that collide.

The best hope for amicable U.S.-China relations rests on Beijing adopting a highly restrained grand strategy, but it would be historically unprecedented if it did so. China would be choosing to live within a security order managed by another great power—one with whom it has tense relations. While some countries have pursued docile grand strategies (one thinks of Australia, Canada and Japan), they have done so under the protection of a friendly, like-minded ally, the United States. In fact, two of America's closest cold war allies, West Germany and Japan, took docility only so far. They built potent conventional military forces and, in Japan's case, a nuclear hedge in the form of a giant stockpile of plutonium. Great powers have not entrusted their security to this degree to another great power unless they had little choice or unusually warm relations.

Indeed, a look at China's national-security policy—its pursuit of antiaccess capabilities, its territorial claims, and discussions of claims to "second island chains"—suggests that it is (at a minimum) aspiring to be a regional great power. The remaining questions are the extent to which Beijing will confine its ambitions to East Asia (as opposed to pursuing a global strategy), and the extent to which it will tolerate U.S. global leadership or seek to undermine U.S. influence.

And the United States? In theory, Washington, like Beijing, has a number of strategic alternatives and could choose to adopt a strategy (such as "offshore balancing") that would not require U.S. military dominance in the Pacific. But this appears unlikely. There is little support for this move within the American foreign-policy establishment, the U.S. military or the globalized American economic elite. Offshore balancing would be a radical departure from the way that the United States currently operates in East Asia; from how it plans to operate in the region in coming decades; and from how it has organized U.S. security in the region for the past sixty years.

Some might argue that by demonstrating greater humility and modesty the United States can continue its current strategy while still reassuring China. Summits can be held; regional institutions can be strengthened; Beijing can be empowered with leadership roles. Liberals criticized George W. Bush for aggressive policies that were offensive to U.S. allies and adversaries alike. They argue that more diplomatically savvy, consensus-building leaders can reassure allies and soothe others that We Come In Peace.

But evidence from the past five years does not support this view. American grand strategy under a Democratic administration has not noticeably changed—if anything, U.S. policy is even more assertive in East Asia. Though a supporter of the policy, Asia scholar Michael Green characterizes the Obama administration's rebalancing effort as aimed at China's "soft underbelly" in Southeast Asia—deepening military ties with the Philippines and Singapore; stationing 2,500 U.S. Marines in Darwin, Australia; and even flirting with America's Cold War adversary Vietnam (which dwells on the Chinese border). The very dynamics we describe—China fearing the United States and acting to counter it; the United States fearing those countermeasures and then responding in turn—have not only occurred but have accelerated during the Obama administration.

In some sense, the greatest danger for the United States is the illusion that the current strategy of "leadership" or "deep engagement" is benign and unthreatening. China's pursuit of a policy of "deep engagement" in Latin America or the Caribbean would be viewed by policymakers in Washington as outrageously provocative. As China's power grows, Beijing's leaders are likely to develop similar intolerance of American aircraft flying near their shores, U.S. warships plying nearby waters and the network of U.S. military bases that surrounds China.

The fundamental problem in U.S.-China relations—the engine of conflict between the two countries—is neither America's grand strategy nor Beijing's. China would be entirely reasonable in wanting the ability to defend its airspace and coastal waters from foreign powers. It is also perfectly reasonable for the United States to want to uphold its sixty-year-long security commitments to the region by retaining the ability to move powerful air and naval forces there.

Of course, perhaps a U.S.-China clash will never occur—after all, as with the much-hyped rises of the Soviet Union and Japan, China's economy may languish or implode; a "Chinese Spring" could also derail its future prosperity. But assuming China's economy continues to grow at a healthy rate, unless the United States departs from six decades of foreign-policy precedent, or unless China elects to pursue extreme foreign-policy meekness, America's and China's reasonable national-security interests will collide. This is how the tragedy of great-power politics unfolds.

Jennifer Lind [6] is an associate professor of government at Dartmouth, and the author of Sorry States: Apologies in International Politics (Cornell, 2008). Follow her on Twitter @profLind [7].

Daryl Press [8] is an associate professor of government at Dartmouth, and the author of Calculating Credibility: How Leaders Assess Military Threats (Cornell, 2005).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 25, 2013, 02:02:47 PM
If Abe is an indication of the direction in Japan, that's not going to help either:

Quote[Back to the future: Shinto's growing influence in politics
A small organization, little known to the public, has helped restore much of Japan's controversial past — and it is only getting started

BY DAVID MCNEILL
SPECIAL TO THE JAPAN TIMES
NOV 23, 2013

Immaculate and ramrod straight in a crisp, black suit, Japan's education minister, Hakubun Shimomura, speaks like a schoolteacher — slowly and deliberately. His brow creases with concern when he talks about Japan's diminished place in the world, its years of anemic economic growth and poorly competing universities. Mostly, though, he appears to be worried about the moral and spiritual decline of the nation's youth.

"The biggest problem with Japanese education is the tremendous self-deprecation of our high school children," he says in an interview at his Tokyo office. He cites an international survey in which children are asked: "Are there times when you feel worthless?" Eighty-four percent of Japanese kids say yes — double the figure in the United States, South Korea and China, he laments. "Without changing that, Japan has no future."

Shimomura's remedy for this corrosive moral decay is far-reaching: Children will be taught moral and patriotic education and respect for Japan's national symbols, its "unique" culture and history. Textbooks will remove "self-deprecating" views of history and references to "disputed" war crimes. They will reflect the government's point of view on key national issues, such as Japan's bitter territorial disputes with its three closest neighbors: China, Russia and South Korea.

Education reform represents only one layer of Shimomura and his government's ambitions. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, a close political ally, wants to revise three of the country's basic modern charters: the 1946 Constitution, the education law, which they both think undervalues patriotism, and the nation's security treaty with the United States. The Emperor would be returned to a more prominent place in Japanese society. The special status of Yasukuni Shrine, which enshrines most of Japan's war dead, including the men who led the nation to disaster between 1933 and 1945, would be restored.

"They're trying to restore what was removed by the U.S. Occupation reforms," explains Mark Mullins, director of the Japan Studies Center at the University of Auckland. If it succeeds, the project amounts to the overturning of much of the existing order in Japan — a return to the past, with one eye on the future.

For an explanation of the core philosophy behind this project I visit an imposing black building that sits on the leafy borders of Meiji Shrine in Tokyo. The Association of Shinto Shrines, representing about 80,000 shrines, is classed as a religious administrative organization. It is also one of Japan's most successful political lobbyists.

Many of the nation's top elected officials, including Abe and Shimomura are members of the organization's political wing, Shinto Seiji Renmei (officially, the Shinto Association of Spiritual Leadership — eschewing the word "political" from the title). A sister organization, the Shinto Political Alliance Diet Members' Association boasts 240 lawmakers, including 16 out of the government's 19-member Cabinet. Abe is the association's secretary-general.

Seiji Renmei sees its mission as renewing the national emphasis on "Japanese spiritual values." In principle, this means pushing for constitutional revision and patriotic and moral education, and staunchly defending conservative values in ways that seem to contradict Abe's internationalist capitalism. The association opposes the free trade of rice and the sale of "strategic property" such as forests or lakes to non-Japanese, for instance.

Since its birth in 1969, Shinto Seiji Renmei has notched several victories in its quest to restore much of the nation's prewar political and social architecture. In 1979, it successfully lobbied the government to reinstate the practice of using imperial era names. In 2007, it won a national holiday, April 29, for Japan's wartime monarch, Hirohito — a day when Japanese might "look in awe at the sacred virtues of the Showa Emperor."

Over the past decade, Tokyo has tried to impose a directive demanding that teachers lead schoolchildren in singing the Kimigayo national anthem — another Shinto concern. In April this year, 168 Diet members visited Yasukuni for its spring festival — the largest number since these counts began 24 years ago. "A lot more politicians now understand the importance of our views," concludes Yutaka Yuzawa, head of Shinto Seiji Renmei.

Though not a member of the association, former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi helped end the taboo on any overt show of sympathy with the militarism of the past with his six pilgrimages to Yasukuni, climaxing in his visit on Aug. 15, 2006. Yuzawa's father, Tadashi, was the head priest of Yasukuni at the time. For both, it was a vindication of years of struggle. "Our stance is that it is natural for the prime minister to pay his respects at the shrine on behalf of the country." Lawmakers such as former Prime Minister Naoto Kan who refuse to go are "impertinent," he adds.

Yuzawa accepts that these visits will worsen already dangerously frayed ties with Beijing and Seoul but insists it is "not something Japan can bend on."

"It relates to our culture, history and tradition," he says. "To us, Yasukuni Shrine is a god." Criticism that prime-ministerial visits confer legitimacy on the Class-A war criminals enshrined there cannot be taken seriously, he says.

"Perhaps, according to today's judgment, they might have made mistakes but back then they were doing their best for the country. In Japan, our way of thinking about the dead souls is that we don't criticize them. They were protecting the Emperor and, by extension, the Japanese people." That vital point, he says, is now understood by a growing number of Japanese politicians.

The American Occupation of 1945-51 ended Shinto's status as a state religion and attempted to banish its influence from Japan's public sphere, notably its emphasis on a pure racial identity linked to the Emperor. The core element of this belief, ruthlessly enforced through the education system, was the emperor's divine status as a direct descendant of the sun goddess Amaterasu. Though weakened, Shinto conservatives in Japan "were simply biding their time" until they could restore the religion's rightful place in Japanese society, says Mullins.

He sees 1995 — the year of the Kobe earthquake and Aum Shinrikyo deadly gas attacks on Japan's subway — as a turning point. The two events, combined with the agonizing decline of the miracle economy, had a profound impact on the nation's confidence. "The sense after that was: 'We have so many troubles in Japan, we need to go back and get what we had,' " recalls Mullins. "There are certain people very sympathetic to that, to Shinto's restoration vision."

One of those people is Abe. In October, he became the first prime minister in 84 years to attend the most important ceremony in Shinto, the Sengyo no Gi at Ise Shrine — a centuries-old ritual in which the main shrine buildings are demolished and rebuilt. Ise is considered home to the emperor's ancestors; Amaterasu is enshrined in the inner sanctum. The highlight of the ceremony is the removal of a mythological "sacred mirror" used to lure the sun goddess out of her cave. Abe took eight members of his Cabinet along to watch. Some scholars were agnostic on the visit, given that prime ministers routinely go to the shrine to show respect for Japanese traditions and culture. Others, however, were alarmed.

"In the past, Ise Jingu (shrine) was the fountainhead for unifying politics and religion and national polity fundamentalism," author Hisashi Yamanaka recently told the Asahi newspaper. "Abe's act is clearly a return to the ways before World War II."

It is far from clear how much of the past, exactly, Abe and his Cabinet want to revive, or how much sway Shinto holds over them. Shimomura swats away concerns about the government's agenda. "Sections of the media have an allergy to moral education," he says. "They are sending out the wrong image that we are trying to reinstate the prewar education system." However, parts of Shinto clearly sit uneasily with the modern, globalized economy the government says it is trying to build.

Yuzawa says Japan should prohibit sales of land and property to China, Japan's largest trading partner. Another possible point of conflict is the free trade of agricultural products, a key demand of U.S. negotiators in the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade talks. Traditional ties between rice cultivation and Shinto rituals make this a no-no for Shinto fundamentalists, historian Matthew Penney notes in a recent article on the Asia-Pacific Journal.

Mullins says this magnetic tug of the past is not unique to Japan. "I see Shinto fundamentalists as very similar to U.S. Christian fundamentalists and Hindu neo-nationalists," he says. "It's people trying to cope with the modern world: to make it all black and white and nail it down."

But he says an "ecumenical group" of like-minded conservatives is in the ascendancy in Japan, led by Shinto and Nippon Kaigi, a nationalist think tank that advocates a return to "traditional values" and rejects Japan's "apology diplomacy" for its wartime misdeeds. "Abe's comeback has given them this sense of confidence," Mullins says.

Whatever happens to his government's larger agenda — much depends on Abe's economic performance — Shinto conservatives will likely continue their quiet mission to transform Japan. John Breen, a religion specialist at the International Research Center for Japanese Studies in Kyoto, cites the restoration of imperial markers on the annual calendar: State Foundation Day; Culture Day, which marks the birthday of the Meiji Emperor; the current Emperor's birthday in December; and Labor thanksgiving, which marks "the Emperor's annual performance of the Niiname rite, a celebration of Amaterasu's gift of rice to Japan."

"The deep imperial meanings of these holidays are concealed behind innocuous names like Culture day and Labor thanksgiving," Breen says. But the Shinto Association of Spiritual Leadership is determined to restore their original titles, "and so make apparent to all their true meaning."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/11/23/national/back-to-the-future-shintos-growing-influence-in-politics/#.UpOd7tKsiSo
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on November 25, 2013, 03:57:34 PM
I've been to the Yasukuni shrine.  And bought a souvenir there too.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on November 25, 2013, 03:58:38 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 25, 2013, 03:57:34 PM
I've been to the Yasukuni shrine.  And bought a souvenir there too.  :ph34r:

White devil!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on November 25, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 25, 2013, 03:58:38 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 25, 2013, 03:57:34 PM
I've been to the Yasukuni shrine.  And bought a souvenir there too.  :ph34r:

White devil!

And in addition, Japanese festival food selections make American festivals look paupers.

Of course, ours have less tentacles.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2013, 08:24:01 AM
Looks like the Japanese are taking the Chinese threat seriously.

Some good pics here.
http://news.usni.org/2013/10/09/japans-amphibious-buildup
QuoteJapan's Amphibious Buildup
By: Kyle Mizokami
Wednesday, October 9, 2013

Japan recently has been in the news as a result of several high-profile territorial incidents with its neighbor China. The incidents involve what Japanese call the Senkaku islands—the Diaoyu islands to the Chinese. Japan has legal ownership of the islands, which China disputes. The incidents have involved non-government activists and the coast guards of both nations, with many fearing an escalation could lead to some form of armed conflict.

Spurred on by those developments, Japan has accelerated what have been until now quiet plans to develop a specialized unit of marine infantry. This force, mentored by the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, is seen by Japan as essential in guarding the Senkakus, as well as other disputed territories. Like the Navy/Marine Corps team, the Japanese force will be a joint group consisting of the Ground, Air, and Maritime Self- Defense Forces, with everything from infantry to air support to the ships that carry them.

The creation of the Japanese marine unit is part of a series of a wide-ranging overhaul of Japan's ability to defend its borders. During the Cold War, Japan anticipated a Soviet invasion of the northernmost island of Hokkaido and built up forces there appropriately. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the rise of Japan's neighbors, particularly China, Japan has shifted attention from the far north to the far south, in particular the Ryukyu and Senkaku islands west of Okinawa.

Specifically, Japan was concerned that activists from other countries with whom it has territorial disputes (countries including Russia, China, and South Korea) would land on Japanese territory and symbolically seize it, perhaps with weapons. Unfortunately these islands are on the periphery of Japan, without nearby military facilities, or even ports or airstrips. That necessitated an expeditionary force capable of self-deploying by air and sea to the periphery of the Japanese archipelago.

Japan has no forces tailored to amphibious operations, since marines are typically considered offensive in nature and Japan has barred itself from having offensive forces. However, the ban was merely a self-imposed policy decision, and in 2012 it was decided that defense-minded marines, who would transport themselves to places such as the Senkakus in time of crisis to defend or eject interlopers, were legal for Japan to operate.

Ground and Air Forces

Based at Nagasaki in southern Japan, the Western Army Infantry Regiment (WAIR) has been tasked the amphibious mission. The location ensures that the WAIR can be quickly embarked on Maritime Self-Defense Force (MSDF) ships at Nagasaki/Sasebo; alternately they could board V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft at the nearby air bases of Nyutabaru and Tsuiki. The WAIR is considered only the core of a new marine force, which will be considerably larger.

The WAIR is approximately of battalion size, consisting of at least three infantry companies. The regiment is equipped as light infantry, with the heaviest weapons being 84mm Carl Gustav recoilless rifles and French MO-120-RT 120mm towed mortars. The regiment has no vehicles except for Mitsubishi Type 73 light trucks. Japan recently announced it is procuring up to six AAV-7A1 amphibious assault vehicles of the kind the U.S. Marines use. Such vehicles would afford a platoon of WAIR troops armored protection up to and onto the beachhead.

One company of the WAIR is sent every year to San Diego for the annual Iron Fist exercises. There they learn to conduct a variety of operations from the U.S. Marine Corps. Each year the exercises have grown progressively more complicated, starting with rigid-hull inflatable boat training to more recently conducting actual amphibious landings.

Air support for the marine unit is currently in the form of helicopters from the 1st Aviation Brigade, headquartered near Tokyo. During the June 2013 Dawn Blitz exercises in southern California, Japanese AH-64 Apache and CH-47 Chinook helicopters from 1st Brigade crossed the Pacific on Maritime Self-Defense Force ships to provide air support for WAIR. Tokyo is currently exploring buying organic air transport for the marines in the form of up to 20 V-22 Ospreys, which would allow the unit to quickly self-deploy to the Senkakus.

Naval Forces

Ironically, although Japan's amphibious warfare doctrine has been minimal it actually does have several highly capable amphibious ships. The three Landing Ship, Tanks (LSTs) of the Oosumi class feature full-length flight decks and a well deck, and can transport nearly a battalion of infantry, tanks and other vehicles. Each can carry two American-built Landing Craft Air Cushion (LCAC), of which Japan has six. In addition to the LCAC, Japan has a dozen medium landing craft that can move 30 tons of equipment or up to 80 personnel from ship to shore.

The recent addition of the Hyuga-class "helicopter destroyers" has added an interesting new dynamic to the new amphibious force. The ships, equipped to carry up to 14 helicopters and 400 personnel, functioned as helicopter landing platform ships during the Dawn Blitz exercises, much along the lines of the old U.S. Navy Iwo Jima class. Together with the Oosumi LSTs, the new helicopter destroyers could form the core of an ad hoc amphibious ready group, or even a sea base.

Under the tutelage of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, Japan is slowly but surely building up a credible, flexible amphibious force capable of responding to national emergencies. Highly trained with a high level of mobility, it could eventually become the equal of both. The force will not only be highly useful in Japan's territorial disputes, it will likely be a excellent partner for their American counterparts in joint operations.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2013, 09:20:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

This is the new Japan, my friend.  This time, they're on our side.  The only kamikazes they're flying these days have little umbrellas in them.

Today's JSDF:  Little.  Yellow.  Different.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on November 26, 2013, 09:34:39 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Barrister on November 26, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

Rising Sun flag isn't like the Swastika - it's the traditional Japanese naval ensign IIRC.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: 11B4V on November 26, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
Quote2 U.S. Air Force jets flew into China's new defense zone without following China's ID rules, U.S. official tells CNN's Barbara Starr.

Just breaking apparently. Headline only.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/?hpt=sitenav
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
B-52s.
Even Chinese radar won't miss those.

Monroe was bright enough to make sure the British were on board before making big declarations about exclusions.
PRC seems to have forgotten to check with USAF and USN.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: 11B4V on November 26, 2013, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
B-52s.
Even Chinese radar won't miss those.

Monroe was bright enough to make sure the British were on board before making big declarations about exclusions.
PRC seems to have forgotten to check with USAF and USN.
yip

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/26/us-flies-bombers-over-disputed-islands-claimed-by-china/?intcmp=latestnews
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2013, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
PRC seems to have forgotten to check with USAF and USN.

Miscalculating the reactions of intended audiences in Chinese strategic thought is no new revelation. 

Good to see the US react so quickly, though.  Doesn't give the Chinese a sense of acceptance. 

The Washington is done in the Philippines, and the Nimitz is in the WestPac.  I wonder if their CVBGs will make minor detours in their cruise itineraries.

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on November 26, 2013, 02:45:38 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
B-52s.
Even Chinese radar won't miss those.

Monroe was bright enough to make sure the British were on board before making big declarations about exclusions.
PRC seems to have forgotten to check with USAF and USN.

Yeah, possibly have the largest radar signature of any USAF combat aircraft ? :unsure:


Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Maximus on November 26, 2013, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2013, 02:44:41 PM
Miscalculating the reactions of intended audiences in Chinese strategic thought is no new revelation. 

Good to see the US react so quickly, though.  Doesn't give the Chinese a sense of acceptance. 

The Washington is done in the Philippines, and the Nimitz is in the WestPac.  I wonder if their CVBGs will make minor detours in their cruise itineraries.
According to the article I read the Washington is conducting joint exercises with the Japanese off Okinawa
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2013, 03:07:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2013, 02:44:41 PM
Miscalculating the reactions of intended audiences in Chinese strategic thought is no new revelation. 

Could be a blunder, could be a probe to test will and commitment.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 03:13:54 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

Rising Sun flag isn't like the Swastika - it's the traditional Japanese naval ensign IIRC.

I never said it was like the swastika, if they were waving swastikas there would be nothing surprising about it making me feel uneasy.

Of course to the Chinese and Koreans it is a bit Swastika-like.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 26, 2013, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

Rising Sun flag isn't like the Swastika - it's the traditional Japanese naval ensign IIRC.

It is also the traditional flag of Japanese warcrimes in the eyes of its neighbours, I'm pretty sure.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on November 26, 2013, 04:12:58 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 26, 2013, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

Rising Sun flag isn't like the Swastika - it's the traditional Japanese naval ensign IIRC.

It is also the traditional flag of Japanese warcrimes in the eyes of its neighbours, I'm pretty sure.

Good point and one of occupation, for a good deal longer than the countries the nazis dominated. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on November 26, 2013, 04:19:57 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2013, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 26, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
PRC seems to have forgotten to check with USAF and USN.

Miscalculating the reactions of intended audiences in Chinese strategic thought is no new revelation. 

Good to see the US react so quickly, though.  Doesn't give the Chinese a sense of acceptance. 

The Washington is done in the Philippines, and the Nimitz is in the WestPac.  I wonder if their CVBGs will make minor detours in their cruise itineraries.

If they do, at least there shouldn't be any crooked deals involved anymore!  :P

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/2nd-high-ranking-navy-officer-relieved-of-duty-as-bribery-probe-expands-1.244597
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2013, 07:37:43 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

Rising Sun flag isn't like the Swastika - it's the traditional Japanese naval ensign IIRC.
Tell that to a Korean and they will flip out and go on a ten minute rant on how they're exactly the same.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 03:13:54 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 26, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 26, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
Woah.  A ship with the Rising Sun flag.  That makes me feel surprisingly uneasy.

Rising Sun flag isn't like the Swastika - it's the traditional Japanese naval ensign IIRC.

I never said it was like the swastika, if they were waving swastikas there would be nothing surprising about it making me feel uneasy.

Of course to the Chinese and Koreans it is a bit Swastika-like.
If the Japanese were flying a Swastika it would just be odd.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on November 26, 2013, 07:49:09 PM
What's slightly odd is as well as the same flag, it's the same ruling family in Japan, did they drop the Imperial stuff ?

You could see how an typical Asian national/patriot might get a bit upset, rather like I'd imagine a Pole would who lived next to a modern Germany that still had the swastika or say Black cross as a flag, the exact same national anthem and the head of state was Hitler's son, but there wouldn't be anything to get upset about as it was now a constitutional monarchy. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on November 26, 2013, 07:52:31 PM
I think Hirohito was probably closer in status to the Kaiser in WW1 than to Hitler in WW2.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: mongers on November 26, 2013, 07:57:06 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 26, 2013, 07:52:31 PM
I think Hirohito was probably closer in status to the Kaiser in WW1 than to Hitler in WW2.

In some senses yes and I thought about that when I posted, but I think the over-riding similarity, as far as the victims were concerned, was everything was done in their names, be it the Fuhrer or the Emperor.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on November 26, 2013, 08:01:12 PM
Though Hitler certainly has much more notoriety. 

Even most brain-dead Americans can make the "Hitler?-WW2!-Nazis!" connection, whereas if you name-dropped Hirohito, you'd likely get a lot of blank stares.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 26, 2013, 08:08:43 PM
You go back along a long enough timeline, everybody in that part of the world is awash in blood. 
Ain't nobody innocent when it comes to crimes against humanity on that side of the planet;  the barking just comes down to who did what to whom last.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 12:12:23 AM
It's only Tuesday, and AEI is freaking the fuck out already.

As Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast, my friend!"

QuoteThe Day America Lost Asia
By MICHAEL AUSLIN
November 26, 2013

While Washington and the world furiously debated the interim agreement between Iran and the United States over the weekend, Nov. 24, 2013, may go down in history as the day America lost Asia.

Starting this past Sunday, China began air patrols over its newly designated "air defense identification zone" over the East China Sea—home to a chain of islands disputed with Japan—and within 24 hours Beijing turned 80 years of free aerial navigation on its head. China's move is no less dramatic than Iran's potential victory in gaining the right to enrich uranium: Absent an effective U.S. response, China has successfully begun changing the rules of international security in East Asia. And with a whimper, not a bang, Washington may begin losing its influence in Asia, despite its still-preponderant strength.

Here are four things the world should note about China's bold move.

First, let's call it what it is. Beijing has declared an air control zone, not a defense zone. Normally, in air defense zones countries seek to identify aircraft in that are close to or approaching national territory. Think of the analogue with territorial waters. Obviously, airplanes that fly over national territory, such as commercial airliners, must identify themselves. But they are also presumed to be engaging in innocent passage, just like cargo or passenger ships on the seas.

What China has done is very different. In claiming most of the East China Sea as a control zone—within 80 miles of Japanese territory at its closest point—the country is demanding that airplanes flying hundreds of miles from China's actual territory must now identify themselves and declare their flight paths, even if they are not going to China. This is not defense: It is a not-so-subtle form of much wider control. While Chinese spokespersons say the move does not affect the freedom of international flights, the reality is much different. There is no basis for such a wide zone, other than to get foreign countries to accept that they are passing through what are, in essence, Chinese-controlled skies. And if a foreign plane doesn't provide Chinese authorities the information they demand? China will then take "defensive emergency measures," according to the government—in other words, shadow, threaten or shoot down foreign planes.

Second, Beijing's announcement is a direct challenge to Japan and Korea, since China's new control zone overlaps those of both Tokyo and Seoul. This, of course, is the whole idea, at least with respect to Japan: to chip away further at Japanese control of the Senkaku (Diaoyu) Islands, the chain of islands located in the East China Sea to the northeast of Taiwan that Japan and China both claim as theirs. In recent years, Tokyo has grown increasingly concerned about China probing in the waters off the islands, which Japan has administered since 1972 and over which it has claimed ownership since 1895. In an inept move last year, the Japanese government bought three of the disputed islands from their private owner, sparking the most serious crisis in Sino-Japanese relations in decades. In addition to a diplomatic freeze between the two countries and anti-Japanese demonstrations in China, Chinese paramilitary patrol ships have repeatedly entered into the contested waters, and Beijing has started flying patrol planes near their airspace, as well. Each time, the Chinese have been met by Japanese Coast Guard vessels and Air Self-Defense Force planes. Tensions are at a fever pitch, and one accident in the sky or waters could plunge the two into a crisis that nobody really wants.

The move over the weekend to make a legally accepted claim over the airspace of the Senkaku Islands is designed to force the issue. If Japan decides to contest China's claim, then Asia's two most powerful air forces will soon be playing games of aerial chicken at 600 miles per hour. If Japan retreats, then China will have made a huge step forward in getting its claims over the Senkakus and the East China Sea accepted.

Korea, too, is concerned with the overlap of its western air defense zone with China's new claim, but Beijing is wooing Seoul, giving it prior notification and playing on Korean President Park Geun-hye's deep distrust of Japan and desire to build closer relations with China. While Seoul should be just as worried about ceding China the authority to control the skies over the East China Sea, South Korean domestic politics is already giving Beijing a win by default.

The real question is how another country—the United States—will respond. The Pentagon has said U.S. military flights will not respect China's new control zone, and indeed, on Tuesday, two U.S. bombers flew over the sea in what Pentagon officials said was a routine exercise. But heading forward, will the Obama administration give orders to tone down the amount of American flying in the region, so as not to provoke a crisis? What are the rules of engagement for the first time a Chinese air force plane demands that a U.S. military plane identify itself or turn back? Will U.S. forces back up Japanese air force planes that find themselves threatened?

Third, regardless of what the United States does, the danger is that the tide of regional trends is headed in China's favor. Within just 24 hours of the establishment of the control zone, Asian governments and commercial air transport companies hastily announced that they would comply with Beijing's demands. Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, and even Japan all said that their commercial planes would identify themselves to Chinese authorities, notify China of their flight plans, and provide transponder information and logos. This effectively ends free aerial passage through international skies over one of the world's busiest air corridors. Millions of Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Americans, Indians and others transit among the capitals and major cities of Northeast Asia. Now, the lives of those innocent passengers lie in the hands of young Chinese fighter pilots, who have very little experience dealing with civilian airliners or uncertain situations. That is why so many nations have rushed to accept China's demands: fear that the failure to do so will result in tragedy. Such is a world where might makes right.

Fourth, this is just the beginning. Already, the Chinese have said that they will set up other air control zones once the East China Sea area is pacified. That, of course, means the South China Sea, the world's busiest waterways, where China is embroiled in island territorial disputes with Southeast Asian nations like Brunei, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam. If countries as rich and powerful as Japan and South Korea accede to Chinese control of international skies in their area, what hope is there for smaller nations to refuse? By Thanksgiving next year, all of East Asia may well be under a Chinese aerial protectorate, in which all nations fly at the sufferance of Beijing or its regional military commands. Next, the waters of the Yellow Sea, along the Korean littoral, may be similarly covered, thus forcing the United States to decide how it will do air operations off the peninsula.

All this may not come to pass, but Beijing has gambled that the United States is too distracted and too wary of conflict in Asia to oppose the new reality. Moreover, China assumes that smaller nations, even Japan, will ultimately decide to alter their behavior so as not to provoke a clash with their neighbor and largest trading partner. It also makes sense to force the issue before Japan and South Korea get advanced F-35 fighters, which would undoubtedly embolden them to reject Chinese demands. By 2020 or so, when other Asian air forces get next-generation fighters, China's air control precedent could have been in place for more than a half-decade.

Americans are comfortable talking about freedom of the seas, and the U.S. Navy reminds the world regularly that it keeps the oceans open to all comers. Washington isn't likely to brook any threats to freedom of maritime navigation, whether military or civilian. Neither should it accept restrictions on the freedom of aerial navigation. Yet it has already lost half the battle at the first shots. The Obama administration needs to make daily shows of force, flying fighters, more bombers, cargo and reconnaissance planes ostentatiously through the skies that China now claims. It should invite all nations in Asia to join with the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy in regular aerial transits, simply for the right of it. U.S. planes should be on alert to come to the aid of any planes, military or civilian, that are threatened by China. And President Barack Obama, or Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, should publicly urge all Asian nations to reject China's demands and announce that any of them will be protected by U.S. fighter jets.

If the White House shrinks from taking these steps, the Chinese will have won a victory that will change the perception of the balance of power in Asia. And Americans will be flying the unfriendly skies, all alone.

Michael Auslin is resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on November 27, 2013, 12:16:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 26, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
If the Japanese were flying a Swastika it would just be odd.

Oh for Godsake :bleeding:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 12:39:06 AM
I bet the below decks refurbishment to meet mandatory feng shui minimum regulations was a bitch. 

QuoteChinese aircraft carrier on move
By: Associated Press
November 26, 2013 10:05 PM EST

BEIJING — China's sole aircraft carrier has departed for its first-ever sea trials in the South China Sea, a mission likely to draw scrutiny amid Beijing's drive to assert its claims to those waters and their island groups.

The official Xinhua News Agency said the cruise aims to test the Admiral Kuznetsov Varyag Liaoning's crew and equipment over long distances and a variety of sea conditions.

It said the ship was accompanied by two destroyers and two missile cruisers - elements of a standard aircraft carrier battle group - when it left its northern home port of Qingdao. The Admiral Kuznetsov Varyag Liaoning has launched and recovered jet fighters but not yet been given its full complement of aircraft.

Since entering service last year, the carrier has conducted several rounds of sea trials in the relatively tranquil waters off China's northeast coast. State media reports Wednesday said the navy wanted to submit it to more trying conditions.

"It is hard to find an ideal area for the mission, except for the South China Sea," the China Daily newspaper quoted Maj. Gen. Yin Zhuo, a frequent spokesman on military affairs, as saying.

China says the South China Sea, its islands and potential mineral wealth belong to it, and has increasingly developed civilian and military outposts there and used its coast guard to confront the ships of other nations that also claim parts of the sea.

Yin said a cruise of up to two months was necessary to conduct proper sea trials, and would include the launching of fighters under difficult weather conditions.

Chinese navy ships on their way to the South China Sea have increasingly transited through the Miyako Strait in Japan's Okinawa island chain. While the strait is an international waterway, Japan's military pays close attention to the Chinese navy's activities in the area.

The Admiral Kuznetsov Varyag Liaoning was bought from Ukraine more than a decade ago and extensively refurbished before entering service last year. At 57,000 tons, the ship is a little over half the size of the U.S. Navy's Nimitz class carriers.

China has described the carrier as an experimental platform but hasn't said whether it will play an active service role. The lengthy refurbishment was seen as a learning exercise for China's own future carriers, now believed to be under construction near Shanghai.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 27, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
So, the US flew bombers over the bit of sea China has decided to claim and they didn't tell China. Good on the US for sending a mesage they're supporting Japan for once.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
So, the US flew bombers over the bit of sea China has decided to claim and they didn't tell China. Good on the US for sending a mesage they're supporting Japan for once.

LOL, "for once", he says.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 27, 2013, 07:39:05 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
So, the US flew bombers over the bit of sea China has decided to claim and they didn't tell China. Good on the US for sending a mesage they're supporting Japan for once.
The Secretary of State, the Senate and IIRC the Secretary of Defense have all publicly backed Japan's claim and said that it falls under the American security umbrellas.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2013, 01:00:55 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 12:12:23 AM
It's only Tuesday, and AEI is freaking the fuck out already.

As Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast, my friend!"

So all it takes to lose Asia is for China to say "we declare this an exclusive flight zone"?

Seems a bit overwrought.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 28, 2013, 01:21:55 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
So, the US flew bombers over the bit of sea China has decided to claim and they didn't tell China. Good on the US for sending a mesage they're supporting Japan for once.

LOL, "for once", he says.
The US has been quite worryingly quiet and neutral on the issue until now.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 28, 2013, 01:38:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 28, 2013, 01:21:55 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
So, the US flew bombers over the bit of sea China has decided to claim and they didn't tell China. Good on the US for sending a mesage they're supporting Japan for once.

LOL, "for once", he says.
The US has been quite worryingly quiet and neutral on the issue until now.
Did you ignore everything I said?

Are you going to force me to link to articles proving those assertions?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2013, 02:20:34 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 28, 2013, 01:21:55 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 27, 2013, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
So, the US flew bombers over the bit of sea China has decided to claim and they didn't tell China. Good on the US for sending a mesage they're supporting Japan for once.

LOL, "for once", he says.
The US has been quite worryingly quiet and neutral on the issue until now.


What are you going on about?  The ADIZ?  That just happened this weekend, and both statements and actions have been issued accordingly.

Worryingly quiet and neutral, my black ass.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 28, 2013, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 28, 2013, 01:38:54 AM
Did you ignore everything I said?

Are you going to force me to link to articles proving those assertions?
Please do. I've seen little definite from the US supporting Japan on the Senkakus until now. It has been genuinely worrying.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 28, 2013, 06:15:42 AM
How much more support can you get from the US government than this?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2012/12/01/national/u-s-senate-passes-senkaku-backing/

QuoteU.S. Senate passes Senkaku backing
by Eric Johnston

Staff Writer

    Dec 1, 2012
    Article history

OSAKA – The U.S. Senate on Thursday unanimously approved an amendment to the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act that is designed to counter attempts by China to challenge Japan's administration of the Senkaku Islands but sidesteps the question of who has ultimate sovereignty over the disputed territory.

The amendment, offered by Jim Webb, a Virginia Democrat, states U.S. opposition to any efforts to coerce, threaten to use force or use force to resolve territorial issues. It concludes by reaffirming the commitment of the U.S. to the defense of territories under the administration of Japan.


"The peaceful settlement of territorial and jurisdictional disputes in the East China Sea requires the exercise of self-restraint by all parties in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and destabilize the region, and differences should be handled in a constructive manner consistent with universally recognized principles of customary international law," the amendment says.

"While the United States takes no position on the ultimate sovereignty of the Senkaku Islands, the United States acknowledges the administration of Japan over the Senkaku Islands. The unilateral actions of a third party will not affect United States acknowledgement of the administration of Japan over the Senkaku Islands," it adds.

"Over the past several years, China has taken increasingly aggressive actions to assert its claim over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea and in a broad expanse of the South China Sea," Webb said.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 28, 2013, 09:01:37 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 28, 2013, 04:11:27 AM
Please do. I've seen little definite from the US supporting Japan on the Senkakus until now. It has been genuinely worrying.

The Us and Japan revised the Guidelines for Defense Cooperation last month for the first time since 1997, we've moved the US air defense HQ to Yokota AB, and Hawk Carlisle himself says the USAF and Japan are working tighter on air and missile defense than even 2 years ago.

So relax already.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 28, 2013, 09:03:18 PM
Koreans are not happy about this, saw a whole half hour news program on tv yesterday on the situation with grim faced commentators.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/japan-south-korea-military-jets-cross-through-china-air-defense-id-zone/2013/11/28/6285d350-5816-11e3-bdbf-097ab2a3dc2b_story.html

QuoteChina sends warplanes to new air defense zone after U.S., Japan, S. Korea incursions

BEIJING — China said Thursday that it had sent warplanes to patrol its newly declared maritime air defense identification zone, ratcheting up a dispute over an island chain that has turned into a dangerous standoff in the region.

The move came after Japan and South Korea said Thursday that they had sent surveillance aircraft of their own into the area in the East China Sea. The United States has joined many of China's neighbors in condemning the decision this week to establish the zone and defied Beijing by flying two B-52 bombers through the area Tuesday.

A Chinese air force spokesman, Col. Shen Jinke, said several fighter jets and an early- warning aircraft had been sent on "defensive" air patrols in the zone, to "strengthen the monitoring of aerial targets," the official Xinhua News Agency reported.


Experts say China's decision to establish the zone — bolstered by a threat that any non­commercial aircraft entering it without notice could face "defensive emergency measures" — has inflamed an already tense situation with Japan and raised the possibility of military conflict.

Beijing had initially reacted calmly to the U.S. challenge Tuesday, simply noting that it had identified and monitored the American warplanes. That muted response drew criticism from citizens on Chinese micro-blogging sites, and even from state news media.

The nationalist Global Times newspaper said that the United States had engaged China in a "war of public opinion" and that Beijing had "failed to make a timely and ideal response."

"Beijing needs to reform its information release mechanism to win the psychological battles waged by Washington and Tokyo," the paper said in an editorial.

Shen said the Chinese air force would remain on high alert and would take "relevant measures according to different air threats" to defend the country's airspace, Xinhua reported.

In another editorial, the Global Times said Japan, not the United States, was the target of the new zone and suggested that enforcement of the zone would be selective.

"If the U.S. does not go too far, we will not target it in safeguarding our air defense zone," the newspaper wrote. "What we should do at present is to firmly counter provocative actions from Japan."

The latest flights intensify the game of dare being played above Asia's contested maritime territory. Analysts said China had established the zone to bolster its claims to a chain of tiny, rocky islands administered by Japan and to match a similar air defense identification zone long established by its rival.

But they said the decision could have backfired, uniting several of China's neighbors in condemnation and providing the United States a perfect opportunity to demonstrate its commitment to ensuring stability in the Asia-Pacific region.

A spokesman for the Japanese government said Thursday that its Lockheed Martin-made turboprop patrol planes have been conducting routine flights in China's air defense identification zone since Beijing's declaration. The spokesman did not say specifically when the flights have taken place or how many there have been. Japan has not been notifying China of its activities.

Japan's Defense Ministry did not confirm the flights, but one official, requesting anonymity to describe the situation, said that Japan is "conducting the same monitoring activity as before, and we will not change or restrict such activities."

South Korea's flight took place Wednesday near the area of a South Korean maritime research center, built atop a submerged rock that Seoul and Beijing contest.

The flight marks a "clear sign that Seoul will not recognize the new airspace claim," South Korea's Yonhap news agency said in its report. Yonhap also reported Thursday that China had rejected Seoul's request to redraw its air defense identification zone and eliminate an overlap with the zone of South Korea. The South in turn said it may expand its own zone.

In Asia's waters, territorial disputes go back decades or centuries and draw in nearly every nation in the region. The nastiest dispute of late has been between Japan and China over several uninhabited islets and rocks known as the Senkaku in Japanese and the Diaoyu in Chinese.

Japan infuriated China last year by purchasing several of those islets from a private landowner, and China has since increased its surveillance — both with vessels and aircraft — around those islands. Japan has frequently scrambled its own fighter jets in response.

U.S. officials said China's unilaterally announced air defense identification zone needlessly raised tensions between Asia's two largest economies. In his trip next week through the region, Vice President Biden plans to convey those concerns to China, a senior Obama administration official told reporters Wednesday.

"There is an emerging pattern of behavior by China that is unsettling to China's own neighbors," the official said. Biden will raise questions "about how China operates in international space and how China deals with areas of disagreement with its neighbors."

Harlan reported from Seoul. Li Qi contributed to this report.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on November 29, 2013, 12:48:30 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 28, 2013, 06:15:42 AM
How much more support can you get from the US government than this?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2012/12/01/national/u-s-senate-passes-senkaku-backing/

QuoteU.S. Senate passes Senkaku backing
by Eric Johnston

Staff Writer

    Dec 1, 2012
    Article history

OSAKA – The U.S. Senate on Thursday unanimously approved an amendment to the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act that is designed to counter attempts by China to challenge Japan's administration of the Senkaku Islands but sidesteps the question of who has ultimate sovereignty over the disputed territory.

The amendment, offered by Jim Webb, a Virginia Democrat, states U.S. opposition to any efforts to coerce, threaten to use force or use force to resolve territorial issues. It concludes by reaffirming the commitment of the U.S. to the defense of territories under the administration of Japan.


"The peaceful settlement of territorial and jurisdictional disputes in the East China Sea requires the exercise of self-restraint by all parties in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and destabilize the region, and differences should be handled in a constructive manner consistent with universally recognized principles of customary international law," the amendment says.

"While the United States takes no position on the ultimate sovereignty of the Senkaku Islands, the United States acknowledges the administration of Japan over the Senkaku Islands. The unilateral actions of a third party will not affect United States acknowledgement of the administration of Japan over the Senkaku Islands," it adds.

"Over the past several years, China has taken increasingly aggressive actions to assert its claim over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea and in a broad expanse of the South China Sea," Webb said.

The US needs better PR.
That is  mostly reported as
Quotethe United States takes no position on the ultimate sovereignty of the Senkaku Islands,
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on November 29, 2013, 12:56:16 AM
Maybe the Japanese media is like the British? They oscillate from neediness (special relationship on the rocks) to chippiness (poodle)?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 29, 2013, 01:03:17 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 29, 2013, 12:56:16 AM
Maybe the Japanese media is like the British? They oscillate from neediness (special relationship on the rocks) to chippiness (poodle)?

Or, like the rest of the world, they're confident that not only can the JSDF handle anything the PLA does in their usual ham-handed crisis management, but that it doesn't even need to be said that the United States--as not only the guarantor of both freedom of navigation and freedom of airspace in the Pacific since 1945, but of Japan's existence itself--has Japan's back, and that it's mildly insulting to even bother questioning it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 29, 2013, 01:04:20 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 29, 2013, 12:48:30 AM

How much more support can you get from the US government than this?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2012/12/01/national/u-s-senate-passes-senkaku-backing/

QuoteU.S. Senate passes Senkaku backing
by Eric Johnston

Staff Writer

    Dec 1, 2012
    Article history

OSAKA – The U.S. Senate on Thursday unanimously approved an amendment to the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act that is designed to counter attempts by China to challenge Japan's administration of the Senkaku Islands but sidesteps the question of who has ultimate sovereignty over the disputed territory.

The amendment, offered by Jim Webb, a Virginia Democrat, states U.S. opposition to any efforts to coerce, threaten to use force or use force to resolve territorial issues. It concludes by reaffirming the commitment of the U.S. to the defense of territories under the administration of Japan.



The US needs better PR.
That is  mostly reported as
Quotethe United States takes no position on the ultimate sovereignty of the Senkaku Islands,
It's not our fault your media is stupid.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 29, 2013, 01:16:35 AM
Talk about sending messages that we mean business.

First, B-52s...then...JOE, BITCHES

QuoteWhat can be done? Next week Joe Biden, America's vice-president, arrives in China.

:yeah:

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 29, 2013, 01:19:19 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 29, 2013, 12:48:30 AM
The US needs better PR.

The 7th Fleet takes care of our PR just fine.

QuotePHILIPPINE SEA (NNS) -- Demonstrating the extraordinary flexibility of a carrier strike group, USS George Washington (CVN 73) kicked off its participation in Annual Exercise (AnnualEx) 13, Nov. 25, just days after completing a humanitarian assistance mission under Operation Damayan in the Philippines.

AnnualEx 13 is designed to increase the defensive readiness and interoperability of Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) and U.S. naval forces through training in air and sea operations.

The complex exercise, which takes place in waters surrounding Japan, involves units in comprehensive scenarios involving maritime training in the air, surface and subsurface battlespaces in support of the defense of Japan.

AnnualEx allows the United States and Japan to practice and evaluate the coordination, procedures and interoperability elements required to effectively and mutually respond to the defense of Japan or to a regional crisis or contingency situation in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region, while building bilateral confidence and working relationships.

AnnualEx 13 strengthens the close, long-standing relationship of U.S. forces and JMSDF. This exercise demonstrates the continuing commitment to deepen strong ties of mutual support and friendship.

U.S. Navy participating units include aircraft carrier USS George Washington (CVN 73), Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruisers USS Antietam (CG 54), Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers USS Curtis Wilbur (DDG 54), USS Lassen (DDG 82), USS McCampbell (DDG 85), USS Mustin (DDG 89) and maritime patrol and reconnaissance aircraft and a U.S. submarine.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 29, 2013, 07:11:25 PM
Excellent to see Japan and South Korea not backing down.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/29/21675753-on-high-alert-fighter-jets-ramp-up-tensions-in-east-china-sea?lite

QuoteBy Ben Blanchard and Roberta Rampton, Reuters

BEIJING/WASHINGTON - China scrambled jets on Friday in response to two U.S. spy planes and 10 Japanese aircraft, including F-15 fighters, entering its new air defense zone over the East China Sea, state news agency Xinhua said, raising the stakes in a standoff with the United States, Japan and South Korea.

The jets were scrambled for effective monitoring, Xinhua cited air force spokesman Shen Jinke as saying. The report gave no further details.

Japan and South Korea flew military aircraft through the zone, which includes the skies over islands at the heart of a territorial dispute between Japan and China, the two countries said on Thursday, while Washington sent two unarmed B-52 bombers into the airspace earlier this week in a sign of support for its ally Japan. None of those aircraft informed China.

The Pentagon has declined to offer specifics on any additional U.S. flights and it neither confirmed nor denied the Chinese report of two U.S. spy aircraft entering the zone.

One U.S. defense official, speaking to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said only the U.S. military was still flying routine missions in the region, including reconnaissance and surveillance flights.

Xinhua earlier said China had sent several fighter jets and an early warning aircraft into the new air defense zone.

China last week announced that foreign aircraft passing through it - including passenger planes - would have to identify themselves to Chinese authorities.

The Chinese patrol mission, conducted on Thursday, was "a defensive measure and in line with international common practices", Xinhua reported Shen as saying.

The aircraft, including Russian-designed Su-30 fighter jets, conducted routine patrols and monitored targets in the zone, Shen said.

"China's air force is on high alert and will take measures to deal with diverse air threats to firmly protect the security of the country's airspace," he said.

However, Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said it was "incorrect" to suggest China would shoot down aircraft which entered the zone without first identifying themselves. He did not elaborate.

Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said on Friday he did not know if Chinese planes were in the zone but added there was no change to Japan's sense of alertness.

Ties between China and Japan have been strained for months by the dispute over the islands in the East China Sea, called the Diaoyu by China and the Senkaku by Japan. Washington takes no position on the sovereignty of the islands but recognizes Tokyo's administrative control and says the U.S.-Japan security pact applies to them.

Europe's top diplomat, Catherine Ashton, said the European Union was concerned about China's decision to establish the new air defense zone as well as its announcement of "emergency defense measures" if other parties did not comply.

"This development heightens the risk of escalation and contributes to raising tensions in the region," Ashton said. "The EU calls on all sides to exercise caution and restraint."

CRITICISM

China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang criticized Ashton's remarks, saying China hoped the EU could treat the situation "objectively and rationally".

"Actually, Madam Ashton should know that some European countries also have air defense identification zones," Qin said. "I don't know if this leads to tensions in the European regional situation. European countries can have air defense identification zones. Why can't China?"

Asked to clarify China's expectations for what information airlines were expected to report, Qin said: "International law does not have clear rules on what kind of flight or airplane should apply", adding that each country made its own rules.

"Therefore, China's method does not violate international law and accords with international practice," he said.

China's Foreign Ministry said on Thursday that since the zone had come into force there had been no impact on the safe operation of international civilian flights, although it added that China "hoped" airlines would cooperate.

Japan's two biggest airlines have defied the identification order since Wednesday at the request of the Japanese government.

Although there are risks of a confrontation in the zone, U.S. and Chinese military officials have stepped up communication with each other in recent years and are in regular contact to avoid accidental clashes.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden is visiting China, Japan and South Korea next week, and will try to ease tensions over the issue, senior U.S. officials said.

"We decline to comment on Chinese flights, but the United States will continue to partner with our allies and operate in the area as normal," a Pentagon spokesman said.

China's Defense Ministry has said that it was aware of the U.S., Japanese and South Korean military aircraft in the zone and had tracked them all.

Ties between China and Japan, often tense, have increasingly been frayed in recent years by regional rivalry, mutual mistrust over military intentions and what China feels is Japan's lack of contrition over its brutal occupation of parts of China before and during World War Two.

In a show of support for the military, Chinese President Xi Jinping visited a base in Jinan in eastern China, where he said "military training is critical to beef up the PLA's (People's Liberation Army) war capacities", according to the Xinhau news agency.

Xi did not make direct mention of the East China Sea air defense zone.

"Though life is becoming better, history can't be forgotten and those who made sacrifices for (the) new China's founding must be remembered," Xinhua quoted Xi as saying in a separate report.

The Global Times, an influential tabloid published by the ruling Communist Party's official People's Daily newspaper, praised the government for its calm response in the face of "provocations", saying China would not target the United States in the zone as long as it "does not go too far".
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But it warned Japan it could expect a robust response if it continued to fly military aircraft in the zone.

"If the trend continues, there will likely be frictions and confrontations and even a collision in the air ... It is therefore an urgent task for China to further train its air force to make full preparation for potential conflicts," it wrote in an editorial on Friday.

Additional reporting by Phil Stewart in Washington and Sui-Lee Wee, Michael Martina and Paul Carsten in Beijing
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 29, 2013, 07:25:12 PM
Speculation in the Xiacob household is that Xi may be in slightly less firm control than previously thought, and that this escalation could very well be a play by someone aligned with the military to assert their authority.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
Meh, it's still Xi's show on the CMC. Don't get fooled by the rolled-up sleeves and Dockers from meeting Obama, it's still his call.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 02:57:26 AM
Just heard on BBC that the US is advising American airlines to comply with Chinese ADIZ rules.

Methinks not the best move geopolitically.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on November 30, 2013, 03:00:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 02:57:26 AM
Just heard on BBC that the US is advising American airlines to comply with Chinese ADIZ rules.

Methinks not the best move geopolitically.
As long as the US and Japanese military keep sending in warplanes, I don't think it matters.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:05:19 AM
It's a game of inches, and the US just blinked.

I would be OK with telling the airlines to sound off, just as long as you don't announce it to the world that that's what you've done.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2013, 03:11:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:05:19 AM
I would be OK with telling the airlines to sound off, just as long as you don't announce it to the world that that's what you've done.
How would that be possible? You really think it wouldn't leak from State or one of the staff from one of the however many airlines you spoke to?

It was bound to come out. Given that better that you make the statement (and keep up other stuff) than it furtively leaking.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:16:08 AM
"Is it true that the Obama administration has advised US airlines to announce their presence to the Chinese government upon entering China's newly-declared Air Defense Identification Zone?"

"The position of the US is that airplanes transiting the area described have no obligation to communicate their identity and flight plan to the Chinese government."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2013, 03:24:49 AM
I really don't get the advantage of that. It'd still come out but the US government would've been extra Jesuitical about it?

It'd also probably cause a small political stink at home when it leaks out that the US government did strongly suggest airlines cooperate.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:27:01 AM
Yes.  Words matter in international politics.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on November 30, 2013, 03:28:01 AM
Trying to come across as playing chicken using civilian passengers isn't an obvious choice. Safety first.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:32:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 30, 2013, 03:28:01 AM
Trying to come across as playing chicken using civilian passengers isn't an obvious choice. Safety first.

That would be a reasonable response if my proposed alternative were to forbid US airlines to identify themselves.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on November 30, 2013, 03:33:16 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:32:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 30, 2013, 03:28:01 AM
Trying to come across as playing chicken using civilian passengers isn't an obvious choice. Safety first.

That would be a reasonable response if my proposed alternative were to forbid US airlines to identify themselves.

No. Think again.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2013, 03:33:50 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:27:01 AM
Yes.  Words matter in international politics.
But what's the advantage? Everyone would still find out the US blinked and they'd look weasely about it too?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 30, 2013, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:16:08 AM
"Is it true that the Obama administration has advised US airlines to announce their presence to the Chinese government upon entering China's newly-declared Air Defense Identification Zone?"

"The position of the US is that airplanes transiting the area described have no obligation to communicate their identity and flight plan to the Chinese government."

I don't know if it's "blinking" as much as it is your usual "abundance of caution" for civilian carriers to protect themselves as much as possible.

If some hot shot Commie pinko slope pilot with a raging nationalist hard-on bumps a wing and brings down a United flight--because we all know how disciplined PLA pilots are when it comes to cat-and-mouse Cold War games in the sky--the impeachment proceedings against the POTUS would begin the next business day for failing to protect civilian aircraft by informing carriers exactly how dangerous the airspace actually was.

OBAMA LIED UNITED FLIED PEOPLE DIED

See, it's a story that practically writes itself.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on November 30, 2013, 10:51:56 AM
If such a retreat really happened, it should be all over Foxnews by now. :hmm:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 30, 2013, 01:19:29 PM
The Chinese toned down the rhetoric in their statements of the 27th, so they get a treat in return.  Like Yi said, words matter.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on November 30, 2013, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 30, 2013, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:16:08 AM
"Is it true that the Obama administration has advised US airlines to announce their presence to the Chinese government upon entering China's newly-declared Air Defense Identification Zone?"

"The position of the US is that airplanes transiting the area described have no obligation to communicate their identity and flight plan to the Chinese government."

I don't know if it's "blinking" as much as it is your usual "abundance of caution" for civilian carriers to protect themselves as much as possible.

If some hot shot Commie pinko slope pilot with a raging nationalist hard-on bumps a wing and brings down a United flight--because we all know how disciplined PLA pilots are when it comes to cat-and-mouse Cold War games in the sky--the impeachment proceedings against the POTUS would begin the next business day for failing to protect civilian aircraft by informing carriers exactly how dangerous the airspace actually was.

OBAMA LIED UNITED FLIED PEOPLE DIED

See, it's a story that practically writes itself.
I think CdM is pretty much right here.  There are no limits to Republican perfidy.  But the Chinese are even worse.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on November 30, 2013, 02:44:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 30, 2013, 01:43:50 PMThere are no limits to Republican perfidy.  But the Chinese are even worse.

So Chinese perfidity is even limitlesser? :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 30, 2013, 08:38:55 AM
If some hot shot Commie pinko slope pilot with a raging nationalist hard-on bumps a wing and brings down a United flight--because we all know how disciplined PLA pilots are when it comes to cat-and-mouse Cold War games in the sky--the impeachment proceedings against the POTUS would begin the next business day for failing to protect civilian aircraft by informing carriers exactly how dangerous the airspace actually was.

Because, of course, no one at United ever watches CNN.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on November 30, 2013, 03:22:12 PM
Hopefully not while they're piloting a transoceanic flight.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 01, 2013, 10:25:02 PM
QuoteNational Zoo's 100-day-old baby panda cub named Bao Bao
Panda cub to be unveiled to public in Jan. 2014


By Wei Choot Yu Diyown
4:07 PM EST, December 1, 2013


The National Zoo's adorable baby giant panda cub got a really appropriate name today.

The 100-day-old female cub was dubbed "Bao Bao," which means "precious" or "treasure" in Mandarin Chinese.

Bao Bao is the second surviving panda cub to be born in the U.S. since China gave two pandas to the National Zoo as a state gift in 1972 after a visit by President Richard Nixon and his wife.

More than 123,000 votes were cast in an online contest to choose the panda's name.

The other names, Ling Hua (ling-HWA), Long Yun (long-YOON), Mulan (moo-LAHN) and Zhen Bao (jen-BAO), were contributed by Chinese Ambassador Cui Tiankai, U.S. ambassador to China Gary Locke, the China Conservation and Research Center, the National Zoo.

The winning name Bao Bao was submitted by Friends of the National Zoo, a fundraising group for the zoo.

The naming took place during a ceremony led by Smithsonian Secretary Wayne Clough, Ambassador Cui Tiankai from the People's Republic of China and Assistant Secretary Kerri-Ann Jones from the U.S. Department of State, with messages from First Lady Michelle Obama and Chinese First Lady Peng Liyuan.

Bao Bao has yet to be presented to the public. Her mother Mei Xiang (may-SHONG) has been nursing her since her birth on Aug. 23, and her official unveiling will take place in Jan. 2014.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 01, 2013, 10:28:16 PM
Bao Bao to be ground up for penis pills next week.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on December 01, 2013, 11:37:17 PM
China Has Begun Asserting Ownership of Thousands of Shipwrecks in the South China Sea

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304470504579164873258159410

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FP1-BO193A_CSHIP_G_20131201175712.jpg&hash=563e6861602151dd1bd18bbebe203dbd9dd67663)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 01, 2013, 11:43:11 PM
Considering China's maritime prowess since the Ming dynasty, they're probably all theirs.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on December 02, 2013, 12:18:28 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 01, 2013, 11:43:11 PM
Considering China's maritime prowess since the Ming dynasty, they're probably all theirs.
:pinch:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 02, 2013, 12:35:09 AM
Assburgers like you always ruining jokes.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on December 02, 2013, 12:53:31 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 02, 2013, 12:35:09 AM
Assburgers like you always ruining jokes.
What did I do?  :mad:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 02, 2013, 09:31:34 AM
QuoteMore Chinese Air ID Zones Predicted

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcmsimg.defensenews.com%2Fapps%2Fpbcsi.dll%2Fbilde%3FSite%3DM5%26amp%3BDate%3D20131201%26amp%3BCategory%3DDEFREG03%26amp%3BArtNo%3D312010004%26amp%3BRef%3DAR%26amp%3BMaxW%3D640%26amp%3BBorder%3D0%26amp%3BMore-Chinese-Air-ID-Zones-Predicted&hash=f7abbda54acfc6ee91564aadefb36650963be345)

TAIPEI, SEOUL AND TOKYO — China's establishment of an air defense identification zone (ADIZ) last week over the East China Sea has given the US an unexpected challenge as Vice President Joseph Biden prepares for a trip to China, Japan and South Korea beginning this week.

The trip was scheduled to address economic issues, but the Nov. 23 ADIZ announcement raised a troubling new issue for the US and allies in the region. China's ADIZ overlaps the zones of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

Sources indicate China's ADIZ could be part of its larger anti-access/area-denial strategy designed to force the US military to operate farther from China's shorelines.

China might also be planning additional identification zones in the South China Sea and near contested areas along India's border, US and local sources say.

China's ADIZ might be an attempt by Beijing to improve its claim to disputed islands in the East China Sea also claimed by Japan, sources said. These islands — known as the Senkaku in Japan and the Diaoyu in China — are under the administrative control of Japan.

Mike Green, senior vice president for Asia and Japan chair at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), said this is part of a larger Chinese strategy beyond disputes over islands.

"This should be viewed as a part of a Chinese effort to assert greater denial capacity and eventual pre-eminence over the First Island Chain" off the coast, he said.

Green, who served on the US National Security Council from 2001 to 2005, said China's Central Military Commission in 2008 "promulgated the 'Near Sea Doctrine,' and is following it to the letter, testing the US, Japan, Philippines and others to see how far they can push."


June Teufel Dreyer, a veteran China watcher at the University of Miami, Fla., said "salami slicing" is a large part of China's strategic policy. "The salami tactic has been stunningly successful, so incremental that it's hard to decide what Japan, or any other country, should respond forcefully to. No clear 'red line' seems to have been established," Dreyer said.

The Chinese refer to it as "ling chi" or "death from a thousand cuts."

For example, China's new ADIZ overlaps not only Japan's zone to encompass disputed islands, but South Korea's zone by 20 kilometers in width and 115 kilometers in length to cover the Socotra Rock (Ieodo or Parangdo). Socotra is under South Korean control but claimed by China as the Suyan Rock.

Seoul decided to expand its ADIZ after China refused to redraw its declared zone covering the islands. Seoul's Ministry of National Defense (MND) and related government agencies are consulting on how to expand the South Korean ADIZ, drawn in 1951 by the US military, officials said.

"We're considering ways of expanding [South] Korea's air defense identification zone to include Ieodo," said Wi Yong-seop, vice spokesman for the MND.

During annual high-level defense talks between Seoul and Beijing on Nov. 28, South Korean Vice Defense Minister Baek Seung-joo demanded that Wang Guanzhong, deputy chief of the General Staff of the Chinese Army, modify China's ADIZ.

"We expressed regret over China's air defense identification zone that overlaps our zone and even includes Ieodo," Wi said after the bilateral meeting. "We made it clear that we can't recognize China's move and jurisdiction over Ieodo waters."

Amid these growing tensions, South Korea's arms procurement agency announced Nov. 27 it would push forward on procurement of four aerial refueling planes. Currently, South Korea's F-15 fighter jets are limited to flying missions over Ieodo for 20 minutes. New tankers will extend that time to 80 minutes.

"With midair refueling, the operational range and flight hours of our fighter jets will be extended to a greater extent, and we will be able to respond to potential territorial disputes with neighboring countries," a spokesman for South Korea's Defense Acquisition Program Administration said.

In the southern part of China's ADIZ, which overlaps Taiwan's ADIZ, Beijing was careful not to cover Taiwan's Pengjia Island, which is manned by a Taiwan Coast Guard unit.

"The exclusion of the Pengjia Islet indicates that mainland China respects our stance," said Chinese Nationalist Party legislator Ting Shou-chung. Relations across the Taiwan Strait have been improving over the past several years.

"We're all waiting for the other shoe to drop," said Peter Dutton, an ADIZ expert and director of the China Maritime Studies Institute at the US Naval War College.

"We're looking to see how China will now behave," he said. "Hopefully, they will not try to fly inside the airspace over the Senkaku Islands, since that is under Japanese sovereign administration and would therefore be a highly provocative act."

Dutton downplayed fears of another civilian airliner being shot down, as was the case in 1983, when a Soviet Su-15 fighter shot down a South Korean airliner that strayed into Soviet airspace, killing 269.

In 1988, a US Navy Ticonderoga-class cruiser, the USS Vincennes, shot down Iran Air Flight 655 over the Arabian Gulf, killing 290. The Vincennes mistook the airliner for an Iranian F-14 Tomcat fighter jet.

"For civilian aircraft, this is really not a major issue," he said. "Those aircraft almost always file flight plans in advance and follow the directions of ground controllers. This means that their route through the ADIZ would already by pre-approved, and this is not a problem for the Chinese."

Dutton said the real concern is the freedom of military flights.

"But both the US and Japan have said they do not intend to alter their behavior or to abide by the ADIZ procedures, no matter what they are, for military flights," he said.

In 2001, a Chinese J-8 fighter collided with a US Navy EP-3 Aries signals intelligence aircraft near Hainan Island. Bonnie Glaser, a China specialist at CSIS, said she does not expect China to "back down" from its ADIZ policy, and anticipates more intercepts by Chinese fighters of US reconnaissance aircraft.

"The risk of accident will undoubtedly increase, especially [with] fighters [flown at] Mach 1 by young, inexperienced pilots," she said.

Alessio Patalano, a lecturer in the Department of War Studies, King's College, London, said the Chinese move might have been prompted by the current tensions in the East China Sea, and recent discussions in Japan about how the military can deal with Chinese drones and manned patrol aircraft that intrude into Japan's air defense space.

"Chinese authorities are seeking to force Japan to accept the existence of the dispute challenging Japanese control of the islands," Patalano said. "The problem with this is that Chinese authorities are using military and paramilitary tools to force a change of status quo to what is a political issue.

"Of course, a more robust response could see the US and Japan deploy air assets in the overlapping areas of the ADIZ to challenge the Chinese position," Patalano said. "US and Japanese aircraft flying together in the Chinese ADIZ would present a serious dilemma to Chinese authority."

Green said the US should at least send a "joint US-Japan patrol into the area to prove the point that coercion does not work."

The announcement of the ADIZ also affects the Chinese military, likely adding to the Air Force's status over the traditional role the Army has played as national defender.[/size]
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 02, 2013, 08:02:36 PM
6 P-8's going to Japan.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 02, 2013, 08:11:05 PM
What's a P-8?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 02, 2013, 08:14:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 02, 2013, 08:11:05 PM
What's a P-8?

Anti-sub plane. Replacement for the p-3.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 02, 2013, 09:25:55 PM
Japan needs to get some nuclear-tipped missiles, ASAP.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 02, 2013, 09:47:11 PM
Yay, Korea.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/02/no-end-in-sight-for-chinese-air-restriction-zone

QuoteNo End in Sight for Chinese Air Restriction Zone
FAA punts to State Dept. on guidance for commercial flights while analysts worry about busy, tense airspace

By Paul D. Shinkman
December 2, 2013 RSS Feed Print

Tensions are boiling in the East China Sea and will likely continue as South Korea becomes the latest nation to formally protest new Chinese air restriction rules.

The Republic of Korea announced Monday it would likely expand its own "Aerial Defense Identification Zone" to include part of the region near the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, over which China created an ADIZ last week. This follows Japanese outrage and confusion over whether the U.S., its staunch ally, warned its commercial pilots to avoid the region.


Vice President Joe Biden continues his trip to Japan and China, and eventually South Korea in an attempt to prevent tempers from flaring further. International analysts, however, say diffusing the air restriction zone fallout will be a long game.

"I don't think the Chinese will retract it under any circumstances," says Bonnie Glaser, a China expert with the D.C.-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "The last thing China wants to be seen is as bowing to pressure from foreigners."


The next steps, then, are ensuring a framework exists for regional countries to hammer out their differences in case of a crisis, such as the 2001 "Hainan Island incident." This accidental collision between a U.S. surveillance plane and a Chinese fighter jet killed the Chinese pilot and brought the U.S. and China to the brink of conflict. Cooler heads eventually prevailed upon realizing the potential international ramifications of breaking relations.

But that conclusion may not be so easily achieved in a row between the Japanese and Chinese, two nations with historic grudges that experts say have a difficult time empathizing with the other.

The Chinese government on Monday urged Japan to "face and seriously introspect" its history of invasion, according to state-sponsored news service Xinhua. Monday marks the 70th anniversary of the Japanese declarations of war that contributed to the outbreak of World War II.

"We urge again the Japanese side to face and seriously introspect its invasion history, honor its words and seriously implement its international responsibilities, so as to gain trust from its Asian neighboring countries and the international community," said Hong Lei, a spokesman for the Chinese foreign ministry.

The Japanese foreign ministry expressed outrage over the weekend, following reports that the U.S. government instructed commercial pilots to cede to the Chinese rules.

"The U.S. action may represent Washington's intention to be interpreted either way, giving consideration to both commercial carriers demanding the safety of flights and the Japanese government," a ministry official told Japanese newspaper the Asahi Shimbun.


A spokesman from the Federal Aviation Administration declined to comment Monday, deferring instead to the State Department, when asked what guidance the civil aviation organization would give to commercial airliners.

The State Department doubled back on its position over the weekend.

"The U.S. government generally expects that U.S. carriers operating internationally will operate consistent with [Notices to Airmen] issued by foreign countries," said a statement issued by the department Saturday. "Our expectation of operations by U.S. carriers consistent with NOTAMs does not indicate U.S. government acceptance of China's requirements for operating in the newly declared ADIZ."

The key element in adherence to these new Chinese rules lies in whether the flight is bound for mainland China. Secretary of State John Kerry was quick to point out days after the Chinese announced the ADIZ that all aircraft are already subject to these same rules if entering another nation's airspace to land.

Route maps published by U.S. commercial carriers such as US Airways and Delta show very few trips that would take a commercial jet through the region cordoned off by China's air restriction zone.

But the region remains rife with military aircraft. Japan scrambled F-15s hours after the Chinese established the air defense zone as a show of force. The U.S. flew two B-52 bombers through days later.

"The chances of collision are probably greater between a Chinese aircraft and a Japanese aircraft," says Glaser, the senior adviser for Asia at CSIS. "Particularly on the Chinese side, you may have a young, inexperienced pilot, particularly when it comes to evasive tactics and maneuvers."

Two of President Barack Obama's closest former advisers pointed to the Hainan incident on talk show appearances Sunday.

"You have obviously major powers there, China, Korea and Japan. China has unilaterally undertaken a set of steps here which instead of lowering tensions, increase tensions," said Tom Donilon, who served as a counselor to Obama for national security matters since his 2008 campaign, and formally as national security advisor from 2010 to 2013.

"They really do present the prospect of the possibility of miscalculation and mistake," he said, while speaking on ABC News' This Week, adding of the Hainan incident, "it's that risk of miscalculation and mistake that we need to be very concerned about going forward here."

Former National Security Agency and CIA Director Michael Hayden told Fox News Sunday China's move to establish the ADIZ is "dangerous and dumb."

"They treat the South China Sea or they want to treat the South China Sea the way you and I treat Lake Michigan. No one is going to accept that," said Hayden.


The U.S. barely capped the boiling tensions following the 2001 collision before it spun out of control, he said.

"This is bad from the Chinese perspective. I really don't understand why they did it," Hayden said.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Queequeg on December 02, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
So is China doing this entirely for domestic political consumption?  They're not making any friends. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 02, 2013, 10:00:17 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 02, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
So is China doing this entirely for domestic political consumption?  They're not making any friends.

I'm sure there's a substantial portion of that, yes.  Not so much the general populace--that's just a bonus--but for the Party. 
After all, the CCP plenary was barely a month ago, and the Party's a bit sad over the economic slowdown.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 02, 2013, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 02, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
So is China doing this entirely for domestic political consumption?  They're not making any friends.

I suspect lust for oil and other raw materials plays a part.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 03, 2013, 12:02:08 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 02, 2013, 08:11:05 PM
What's a P-8?

Drink V8, wait a few hours.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 03, 2013, 01:54:53 AM
So.... Has this gone according to plan for china? Or have they embarrassed themselves, not expecting the good guys to call their bluff?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 03, 2013, 02:30:25 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 02, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
So is China doing this entirely for domestic political consumption?  They're not making any friends.

They seem to be studying Pre-World War I Germany for how to make enemies and scare people.

I'm not opposed to China getting some of those islands, though I'm thinking of a different China.  Putting the line so close to the Philippines is insane though.  Why not push it to Hawaii while they are at it?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 03, 2013, 11:49:47 AM
My wife's comment on this "I'm glad I'm Canadian."

Favourite Weibo comment so far "we should totally go to war over this. If we win, we get the island; if we lose we get a new government."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 03, 2013, 12:23:15 PM
The Vietnamese and Phillipines lines also appear to be unreasonable, the one from Brunei is quite amusing as well.
Of course, they aren't rattling sabers the way Chinese is.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Barrister on December 03, 2013, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 03, 2013, 12:23:15 PM
The Vietnamese and Phillipines lines also appear to be unreasonable, the one from Brunei is quite amusing as well.
Of course, they aren't rattling sabers the way Chinese is.

It is, unfortunately, a very common (and often successful) negotiating technique - ask for way more than you'll ever get, so that in the final negotiation you'll get what you really wanted.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 03, 2013, 01:18:43 PM
Never ask for something that you cannot take if the answer is no.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 03, 2013, 01:20:47 PM
For such a polite society, the Chinese have a habit of losing perspective and nuance when it comes to certain hot button topics in diplomacy; I once saw an ADIZ-style airspace map with the line going straight through Tokyo :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 03, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 03, 2013, 02:30:25 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 02, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
So is China doing this entirely for domestic political consumption?  They're not making any friends.

They seem to be studying Pre-World War I Germany for how to make enemies and scare people.

I'm not opposed to China getting some of those islands, though I'm thinking of a different China.  Putting the line so close to the Philippines is insane though.  Why not push it to Hawaii while they are at it?

that's the next phase
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 09:18:45 AM
"Herro...hey, are you done with that?  Can we borrow it?"

QuoteArmy Investigates China Spy Incident ... That Involves No Secrets
Posted By Gordon Lubold and Shane Harris Tuesday, December 3, 2013 - 3:50 PM


No secrets were spilled. And all of the documents in question are publicly available. But the U.S. Army has nonetheless launched an internal review of its administrative practices after members of a Chinese military delegation began asking for U.S. government manuals a bit too aggressively during a September visit to an American base.

The so-called 15-6 investigation reflects the growing unease within some quarters of the U.S. military and the broader American national security community about how best to engage with China's People's Liberation Army. In recent years, the foundation of the relationship has been an approach best described as you-show-me-yours-and-I'll-show-you-mine. But some are questioning that path, especially now that China has sparked an international incident when it declared a so-called "Air Defense Identification Zone" over disputed territory late last month. Vice President Joe Biden called for that declaration to be taken back on Monday. He is expected to visit Beijing later in the week.

At issue in the Army investigation is the behavior of some members of a seven-person Chinese delegation that travelled to the U.S. in late September. The group, led by Maj. Gen. Chen Dongdeng, the PLA's director of so-called "military engagement," visited the Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas as part of a two-stop visit that also included Washington, D.C. The goal at Leavenworth: to "participate in an informational exchange" on U.S. Army doctrine and "operational theory," according to an internal Army news story produced at the time. But the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, or TRADOC, which hosted the delegation, never sought the approval of the Army's G-2 intelligence directorate and bureaucratic feathers got ruffled as a result.

It might have ended there. But during the two-day visit, Dongdeng and members of his delegation asked repeatedly for copies of U.S. Army doctrine documents. Although the documents are "open source" -- meaning they are available to the public -- it was the pointed way in which the Chinese general sought them that raised eyebrows and came off as awkward, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The Army isn't commenting on the conduct of the visitors. An Army official would only acknowledge that the service is conducting an internal review of its administrative practices because of the way in which the visit was handled within the Army.

"What we're looking into is the process of foreign delegations coming to military posts," Army spokesman Lt. Col. Don Peters told Foreign Policy. "We're looking for internal administrative procedures on how to better to do this, how we can do things better."

A Chinese spokesman for the delegation was quoted in the Fort Leavenworth Lamp saying the exchange of "operational theory and doctrine" during the visit is "very important to allow our two militaries to achieve even deeper understanding of each other's military, which helps increase mutual understanding and build mutual trust."

In 2000, Congress passed legislation that limits the ways that the U.S. government can help the PLA by restricting certain "mil-to-mil" contact. The law prevents any contact at all if it poses a national security risk "due to inappropriate exposure." The law lists 12 areas, including information on "force projection" and nuclear, logistical or chemical and biological defense operations. It also restricts mil-to-mil contact on surveillance and reconnaissance operations, joint warfighting experiments and "other activities related to transformations in warfare." Since the law was passed, there has been considerable debate on how to interpret the 12 parameters, or how to ensure that the relationship between the U.S. military and the PLA can continue but stay within the confines of the law.

Bonnie Glaser, a senior adviser on Asia at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington said she was not aware of any mil-to-mil engagements recently in which the Chinese "stepped outside of boundaries." On the contrary, she said, most have been successful.  "We're not seeing a pattern of Chinese behavior like this," she said.

At least not from members of the Beijing government. In the private sector, however, it's not uncommon for Chinese business executives who are visiting American companies to attempt to split off from their guided tours and pilfer through filing cabinets or try to log into company computers, according to a former U.S. counterintelligence official. "It's like teens shoplifting. You can be supervised by a minder. Then someone causes a distraction, and another goes off to a keyboard and starts looking at something he's not supposed to," the official said.

However, the former official added that it would be rare for Chinese military officials to try to obtain secrets this way during an official visit to the United States. And if they were caught, there would be some form of official protest and the delegation would not be invited back.

When it comes to the mil-to-mil relationship between the U.S. and China, there are believers and and there are doubters. Proponents say it's a way for the U.S. to gain insight into the Chinese military and minimizes the kind of missteps and "miscalculations" that could lead to bigger problems. Skeptics, however, say there is futility in building bridges with the Chinese in the hopes the it will lead to a more transparent relationship.

A reportfrom the Congressional Research Service framed the issue of the U.S.-China mil-to-mil relationship as one on which Congress should remain vigilant. "Skeptics and proponents of military exchanges with the PRC have debated whether the contacts achieve results in U.S. objectives and whether the contacts contribute to the PLA's warfighting capability that might harm U.S. and allied security interests," according to the Nov. 20 report. "Some have argued about whether the value that U.S. officials place on the contacts overly extends leverage to the PLA."

U.S. officials have repeatedly singled out China as a major source of espionage directed at U.S. corporations, government agencies, the military, and the Defense Department. In March, then National Security Adviser Tom Donilon said Chinese theft of U.S. business secrets was "a growing challenge to our economic relationship with China" and a "key point of concern and discussion with China at all levels of our governments."

In 2011, a report from the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive marked the first time that U.S. officials had publicly and on record blamed China as the source of so much industrial spying, calling the country the source of "the world's most active and persistent perpetrators of economic espionage."

The report stated, "China's intelligence services, as well as private companies and other entities, frequently seek to exploit Chinese citizens or persons with family ties to China who can use their insider access to corporate networks to steal trade secrets using removable media devices or e-mail."

But that report dealt mostly with cyber espionage -- Chinese spies hacking into U.S. computers and stealing information. The Ft. Leavenworth incident apparently involved no classified or even sensitive material. Which makes the fuss about it even tougher to fathom. 

U.S. officials and lawmakers have been especially sensitive to potential espionage by another source in China--Huawei, the China-based telecommuniations giant. Late last month, Robert Menendez, the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Commitee, and Dianne Feinstein, the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, wrote to top administration officials "to express our concerns" over reports that Huawei plans to build a broadband network in South Korea. Lawmakers and intelligence officials have accused the company of acting as a proxy for the Chinese military and intellience services.

The senators asked Secetary of State John Kerry, Secreatry of Defense Chuck Hagel, and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper for their "assessment of potential threats and security concerns" about Huawei's work in South Korea. The senators are concerned that having Huawei equipment in the networks of an ally that's also a bulkwark against North Korea could compromise U.S. national security. The letter was first reported in the Daily Beast.

Huawe's CEO said recently that he's giving up on the U.S. telecom market in the wake of persistent spying allegations. But its foreign business has been thriving. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 09:23:09 AM
Meanwhile, back in the real world...as reported earlier...

QuoteThe Navy is sending "sub-killing planes" to Asia. FP's Dan Lamothe: "Tensions between the United States, Japan and China took a new turn Monday night when Vice President Joe Biden asked China to rescind the air defense identification zone it established Nov. 23 over contested islands in the East China Sea. Things could soon get even more interesting, however: the Navy's new P-8A Poseidon planes are arriving in Japan this week, offering the ability to destroy submarines, interdict ships and conduct surveillance on open seas. The U.S. military insists the deployment of the P-8s has nothing to do with current friction between China, which has increased since the Asian giant created an area off its coast that it says other militaries must seek permission to use. In fact, the Pentagon first announced the deployment of planes to Kadena Air Base on Okinawa in October as part of a broader realignment that will also eventually include the deployment of more MV-22 Ospreys and F-35B Joint Strike Fighters from the Marine Corps and R-Q4 Global Hawk surveillance drones operated by the Air Force."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: 11B4V on December 04, 2013, 11:00:27 AM
Quoteelegation asked repeatedly for copies of U.S. Army doctrine documents.

Go ahead and give it to them. We dont follow them anyway.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 04, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on December 04, 2013, 11:00:27 AM
Quoteelegation asked repeatedly for copies of U.S. Army doctrine documents.

Go ahead and give it to them. We dont follow them anyway.

No shit. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 11:31:53 AM
Quote from: derspiess on December 04, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on December 04, 2013, 11:00:27 AM
Quoteelegation asked repeatedly for copies of U.S. Army doctrine documents.

Go ahead and give it to them. We dont follow them anyway.

No shit.

Honestly, don't see the big deal, either.  I'm sure there's some counterinsurgency stuff in there, but I think the PLA and the PAPF have that stuff down pretty well as it is.   :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 04, 2013, 11:49:50 AM
That story sounded more like pencilnecks at Army intel getting all worked up about TRADOC filing the wrong forms than anything else.  The China angle was just used to get it bumped up the Pentagon food chain.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Disagree.  Aggressive manual requesting is a threat to our way of life.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 04, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
So, Biden went to China and told a group of young people to challenge their government.

I suppose its true that only Nixon could go to China.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on December 04, 2013, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Disagree.  Aggressive manual requesting is a threat to our way of life.

No aid or comfort or manuals to the enemy!  No way!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 01:02:23 PM
Unless they ask in a really mellow way.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 04, 2013, 01:44:38 PM
Little. Mellow. Different.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 02:12:54 PM
 :lol: stop stealing my schtick.  And improving on it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: 11B4V on December 04, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 04, 2013, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Disagree.  Aggressive manual requesting is a threat to our way of life.

No aid or comfort or manuals to the enemy!  No way!

Just google them   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 04, 2013, 02:14:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Disagree.  Aggressive manual requesting is a threat to our way of life.

:lol:

... but yeah, at the very least they should have the decency to use subterfuge when obtaining your manuals.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 04, 2013, 02:14:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Disagree.  Aggressive manual requesting is a threat to our way of life.

:lol:

... but yeah, at the very least they should have the decency to use subterfuge when obtaining your manuals.

Like putting something over it first, and then walking away with it. All stealthy-like.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: 11B4V on December 04, 2013, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 04, 2013, 02:14:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 04, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Disagree.  Aggressive manual requesting is a threat to our way of life.

:lol:

... but yeah, at the very least they should have the decency to use subterfuge when obtaining your manuals.

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm3_21x8.pdf

If the PLA hasnt figured out they can google army FM's they have bigger issues to worry about.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 02:19:13 PM
Maybe they wanted an autographed one.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 06, 2013, 12:46:31 PM
Recent rumours in the Xiacob household and apparently also current in China:

Back when the Bo Xilai arrest went down, Zhou Yongkang (his patron and head of internal security at the time) was trying to pull off a bona fide coup and have Xi assassinated. It's all just rumours, of course, but they're being spurred in part by the recent suicide of the (now former) mayor of Chengdu (a Zhou Yongkang appointee in his capacity as Premier of Sichuan); second time lucky apparently, first time he swallowed broken glass but survived, now he jumped off a tall building to successfully kill himself.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 01:04:14 PM
I had Szechuan for lunch a few days ago & was burping it up all day :mellow:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 06, 2013, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 06, 2013, 01:04:14 PM
I had Szechuan for lunch a few days ago & was burping it up all day :mellow:

What did you have?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 06, 2013, 02:54:56 PM
Broken glass
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 06, 2013, 03:00:44 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 06, 2013, 02:54:56 PM
Broken glass

Feels like you're walking on, walking on...?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 06, 2013, 03:01:23 PM
He's walking on a rock.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 06, 2013, 03:02:08 PM
Lay off the gimp jokes.  :mad:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 06, 2013, 03:03:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 06, 2013, 03:02:08 PM
Lay off the gimp jokes.  :mad:

Don't mess with a Yissionary man :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 08, 2013, 06:45:00 AM
South Koreans expand their own zone as expected.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/08/21812689-south-korea-counters-chinas-air-defense-zone-by-expanding-its-own-over-submerged-reef?lite
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 08, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
More retroactive rumours -

I don't know if you remember the brief rumour - it was only out for about a day or two before it disappeared again - about tanks in the streets of Beijing late at night, right after Bo Xilai was detained. Apparently, the People's Armed Police (which answered to Zhou Yongkang) was moving to demand Bo's release and the PLA moved to squelch what was essentially a coup attempt.

Also, a bit prior to that if you recall the initial wave of strong, highly publicized, and occasionally violent protests the set off the current round of tension about the disputed islands with Japan? The ones were Mao-posters were featured prominently? Current rumours hold that they were orchestrated by Zhou Yongkang in the hope that they would grow big and turn against the government, preventing Xi's ascension to his post.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 08, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
My my my, that Chinese internet underground has a lively imagination.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 09, 2013, 12:48:00 AM
In other news, the Global Times say that the air pollution in China is beneficial because it makes it harder for enemy nations to accurately aim any missile attacks.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 09, 2013, 12:49:33 AM
 :lol:

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on December 09, 2013, 04:08:58 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 08, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
More retroactive rumours -

I don't know if you remember the brief rumour - it was only out for about a day or two before it disappeared again - about tanks in the streets of Beijing late at night, right after Bo Xilai was detained. Apparently, the People's Armed Police (which answered to Zhou Yongkang) was moving to demand Bo's release and the PLA moved to squelch what was essentially a coup attempt.

Also, a bit prior to that if you recall the initial wave of strong, highly publicized, and occasionally violent protests the set off the current round of tension about the disputed islands with Japan? The ones were Mao-posters were featured prominently? Current rumours hold that they were orchestrated by Zhou Yongkang in the hope that they would grow big and turn against the government, preventing Xi's ascension to his post.
These rumors remind me of Soviet Union.  The absence of credible official accounts made every crazy rumor credible in the minds of many, and they spread like wildfire.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 09, 2013, 05:44:46 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 08, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
More retroactive rumours -

I don't know if you remember the brief rumour - it was only out for about a day or two before it disappeared again - about tanks in the streets of Beijing late at night, right after Bo Xilai was detained. Apparently, the People's Armed Police (which answered to Zhou Yongkang) was moving to demand Bo's release and the PLA moved to squelch what was essentially a coup attempt.

Also, a bit prior to that if you recall the initial wave of strong, highly publicized, and occasionally violent protests the set off the current round of tension about the disputed islands with Japan? The ones were Mao-posters were featured prominently? Current rumours hold that they were orchestrated by Zhou Yongkang in the hope that they would grow big and turn against the government, preventing Xi's ascension to his post.

It is customary to leak negative information about major criminals before their trials. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 09, 2013, 05:45:27 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 09, 2013, 12:48:00 AM
In other news, the Global Times say that the air pollution in China is beneficial because it makes it harder for enemy nations to accurately aim any missile attacks.

Never heard this one before  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Brazen on December 09, 2013, 07:29:15 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 09, 2013, 05:45:27 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 09, 2013, 12:48:00 AM
In other news, the Global Times say that the air pollution in China is beneficial because it makes it harder for enemy nations to accurately aim any missile attacks.

Never heard this one before  :lol:
Now that's hysterical  :D

I feel some investigative journalism coming on...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 09, 2013, 11:36:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 09, 2013, 04:08:58 AM
These rumors remind me of Soviet Union.  The absence of credible official accounts made every crazy rumor credible in the minds of many, and they spread like wildfire.

Yeah for sure, and like Mono says I'm sure at least some of them are spread deliberately as well.

Some of them turn out to be true though. For example when Wang Lijun tried to defect that news circulated in the rumour-sphere for a few days before the news picked it up; similarly, most of the substance of his revelations, the move against Bo, and the charges against him all circulated for a while prior to the press picking it up.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 09, 2013, 11:39:10 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 09, 2013, 05:44:46 AMIt is customary to leak negative information about major criminals before their trials.

Definitely; so I guess the Epoch Times were right back when they reported that Zhou Yongkang was on his way out back when Bo had just been detained.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 13, 2013, 12:20:55 PM
QuoteThe USS Cowpens / AP
     
BY: Bill Gertz    
December 13, 2013 5:00 am

A Chinese naval vessel tried to force a U.S. guided missile warship to stop in international waters recently, causing a tense military standoff in the latest case of Chinese maritime harassment, according to defense officials.

The guided missile cruiser USS Cowpens, which recently took part in disaster relief operations in the Philippines, was confronted by Chinese warships in the South China Sea near Beijing's new aircraft carrier Liaoning, according to officials familiar with the incident.

"On December 5th, while lawfully operating in international waters in the South China Sea, USS Cowpens and a PLA Navy vessel had an encounter that required maneuvering to avoid a collision," a Navy official said.

"This incident underscores the need to ensure the highest standards of professional seamanship, including communications between vessels, to mitigate the risk of an unintended incident or mishap."

A State Department official said the U.S. government issued protests to China in both Washington and Beijing in both diplomatic and military channels.

The Cowpens was conducting surveillance of the Liaoning at the time. The carrier had recently sailed from the port of Qingdao on the northern Chinese coast into the South China Sea.

According to the officials, the run-in began after a Chinese navy vessel sent a hailing warning and ordered the Cowpens to stop. The cruiser continued on its course and refused the order because it was operating in international waters.

Then a Chinese tank landing ship sailed in front of the Cowpens and stopped, forcing the Cowpens to abruptly change course in what the officials said was a dangerous maneuver.

According to the officials, the Cowpens was conducting a routine operation done to exercise its freedom of navigation near the Chinese carrier when the incident occurred about a week ago.

The encounter was the type of incident that senior Pentagon officials recently warned could take place as a result of heightened tensions in the region over China's declaration of an air defense identification zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea.

Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently called China's new air defense zone destabilizing and said it increased the risk of a military "miscalculation."

China's military forces in recent days have dispatched Su-30 and J-11 fighter jets, as well as KJ-2000 airborne warning and control aircraft, to the zone to monitor the airspace that is used frequently by U.S. and Japanese military surveillance aircraft.

The United States has said it does not recognize China's ADIZ, as has Japan's government.

Two U.S. B-52 bombers flew through the air zone last month but were not shadowed by Chinese interceptor jets.

Chinese naval and air forces also have been pressing Japan in the East China Sea over Tokyo's purchase a year ago of several uninhabited Senkaku Islands located north of Taiwan and south of Okinawa.

China is claiming the islands, which it calls the Diaoyu. They are believed to contain large undersea reserves of natural gas and oil.

The Liaoning, China's first carrier that was refitted from an old Soviet carrier, and four warships recently conducted their first training maneuvers in the South China Sea. The carrier recently docked at the Chinese naval port of Hainan on the South China Sea.

Defense officials have said China's imposition of the ADIZ is aimed primarily at curbing surveillance flights in the zone, which China's military regards as a threat to its military secrets.

The U.S. military conducts surveillance flights with EP-3 aircraft and long-range RQ-4 Global Hawk drones.

In addition to the Liaoning, Chinese warships in the flotilla include two missile destroyers, the Shenyang and the Shijiazhuang, and two missile frigates, the Yantai and the Weifang.

Rick Fisher, a China military affairs expert, said it is likely that the Chinese deliberately staged the incident as part of a strategy of pressuring the United States.

"They can afford to lose an LST [landing ship] as they have about 27 of them, but they are also usually armed with one or more twin 37 millimeter cannons, which at close range could heavily damage a lightly armored U.S. Navy destroyer," said Fisher, a senior fellow at the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

Most Chinese Navy large combat ships would be out-ranged by the 127-millimeter guns deployed on U.S. cruisers, except China's Russian-made Sovremenny-class ships and Beijing's new Type 052D destroyers that are armed with 130-millimeter guns.

The encounter appears to be part of a pattern of Chinese political signaling that it will not accept the presence of American military power in its East Asian theater of influence, Fisher said.

"China has spent the last 20 years building up its Navy and now feels that it can use it to obtain its political objectives," he said.

Fisher said that since early 2012 China has gone on the offensive in both the South China and East China Seas.

"In this early stage of using its newly acquired naval power, China is posturing and bullying, but China is also looking for a fight, a battle that will cow the Americans, the Japanese, and the Filipinos," he said.

To maintain stability in the face of Chinese military assertiveness, Fisher said the United States and Japan should seek an armed peace in the region by heavily fortifying the Senkaku Islands and the rest of the island chain they are part of.

"The U.S. and Japan should also step up their rearmament of the Philippines," Fisher said.

The Cowpens incident is the most recent example of Chinese naval aggressiveness toward U.S. ships.

The U.S. intelligence-gathering ship, USNS Impeccable, came under Chinese naval harassment from a China Maritime Surveillance ship, part of Beijing's quasi-military maritime patrol craft, in June.

During that incident, the Chinese ship warned the Navy ship it was operating illegally despite sailing in international waters. The Chinese demanded that the ship first obtain permission before sailing in the area that was more than 100 miles from China's coast.

The U.S. military has been stepping up surveillance of China's naval forces, including the growing submarine fleet, as part of the U.S. policy of rebalancing forces to the Pacific.

The Impeccable was harassed in March 2009 by five Chinese ships that followed it and sprayed it with water hoses in an effort to thwart its operations.

A second spy ship, the USNS Victorious, also came under Chinese maritime harassment several years ago.

Adm. Samuel Locklear, when asked last summer about increased Chinese naval activities near Guam and Hawaii in retaliation for U.S. ship-based spying on China, said the dispute involves different interpretations of controlled waters.

Locklear said in a meeting with reporters in July, "We believe the U.S. position is that those activities are less constrained than what the Chinese believe."

China is seeking to control large areas of international waters—claiming they are part of its United Nations-defined economic exclusion zone—that Locklear said cover "most of the major sea lines of communication" near China and are needed to remain free for trade and shipping.

Locklear, who is known for his conciliatory views toward the Chinese military, sought to play down recent disputes. When asked if the Chinese activities were troubling, he said: "I would say it's not provocative certainly. I'd say that in the Asia-Pacific, in the areas that are closer to the Chinese homeland, that we have been able to conduct operations around each other in a very professional and increasingly professional manner."

The Pentagon and U.S. Pacific Command have sought to develop closer ties to the Chinese military as part of the Obama administration's Asia pivot policies.

However, China's military has shown limited interest in closer ties.

China's state-controlled news media regularly report that the United States is seeking to defeat China by encircling the country with enemies while promoting dissidents within who seek the ouster of the communist regime.

The Obama administration has denied it is seeking to "contain" China and has insisted it wants continued close economic and diplomatic relations.

President Barack Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping agreed to seek a new type of major power relationship during a summit in California earlier this year. However, the exact nature of the new relationship remains unclear.


   
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 13, 2013, 12:25:35 PM
Will get out of control, lucky to live through it, etc.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 13, 2013, 12:47:58 PM
Why are they talking about warship weaponry ranges by referencing the guns?  If guided missile cruisers and guided missile destroyers start fighting, I would rather imagine that they'll use guided missiles.

Still, hopefully the Chinese carrier sinks with massive loss of life.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 13, 2013, 12:49:12 PM
Turns out the carrier really does float.  Any news on whether planes can talk off and land from its deck?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 13, 2013, 12:58:47 PM
Any threads on Paradox condemning the US for sailing into Chinese waters?  :D
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 13, 2013, 12:49:12 PM
Turns out the carrier really does float.  Any news on whether planes can talk off and land from its deck?

They've spent a shitload of time and money to get those shitty J-15s to get it off the deck.  Twice.  No landing attempts yet, I believe.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 13, 2013, 01:08:03 PM
They oughtta try some old Yak-38s.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 13, 2013, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?

Depends. Is the US open for business that day or not?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 01:36:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?

This is the big problem with Chinese crisis management in the rush :  they have no real operational experience in the cat-and-mouse bullshit that goes on on the high seas.  The USN has decades of experience dancing with the Russians, and it's reflected in everything from JO training to operational guidelines.  They don't sweat this stuff.  Inexperienced Chinese officers under immense political pressure to "do the right thing", though?  That's when things go wrong.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 13, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?

Soviets ships used to tail carrier groups all the time.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 13, 2013, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 01:36:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?

This is the big problem with Chinese crisis management in the rush :  they have no real operational experience in the cat-and-mouse bullshit that goes on on the high seas.  The USN has decades of experience dancing with the Russians, and it's reflected in everything from JO training to operational guidelines.  They don't sweat this stuff.  Inexperienced Chinese officers under immense political pressure to "do the right thing", though?  That's when things go wrong.

Good point.  Hadnt thought of it that way.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 13, 2013, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 01:36:38 PM
This is the big problem with Chinese crisis management in the rush :  they have no real operational experience in the cat-and-mouse bullshit that goes on on the high seas.  The USN has decades of experience dancing with the Russians, and it's reflected in everything from JO training to operational guidelines.  They don't sweat this stuff.  Inexperienced Chinese officers under immense political pressure to "do the right thing", though?  That's when things go wrong.

Good point.  Hadnt thought of it that way.

Neither did the J-8 pilot that got his ass splashed in 2001.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navycthistory.com%2Fimages%2Fwideturns_big.jpg&hash=bb89b31d72ad591b8558d35b58a2f5aec297f240)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 13, 2013, 03:22:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 02:58:19 PM
Neither did the J-8 pilot that got his ass splashed in 2001.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navycthistory.com%2Fimages%2Fwideturns_big.jpg&hash=bb89b31d72ad591b8558d35b58a2f5aec297f240)

Did we ever send his insurance company a bill for repairs?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: grumbler on December 13, 2013, 04:00:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?

As others have noted, this happened all the time.  The other ship has to heed the Law of the Sea when maneuvering around a task force (lest it run afoul of the Law of gross Tonnage), but the standard way of dealing with unwanted pickets was just to speed up.  Those AGIs couldn't maintain any kind of speed, nor can their US counterparts.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 13, 2013, 08:56:48 PM
Hopefully this sort of thing will get Japan to arm with atomic weapons.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 15, 2013, 10:10:03 PM
If any of you care about Chinese rumours and the attempts to read the tea leaves, the Epoch Times has a pretty good summary of events thus far; albeit with the usual heavy focus on Falun Gong - http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/393118-reporting-zhou-yongkang-s-arrest-a-primer-on-the-power-struggle-in-beijing/
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 15, 2013, 11:09:39 PM
I've read the Chinese government is upset that hardly anyone in china gives a shit about the moon lander despite the media bombardment about it :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 15, 2013, 11:14:34 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 15, 2013, 10:10:03 PM
If any of you care about Chinese rumours and the attempts to read the tea leaves, the Epoch Times has a pretty good summary of events thus far; albeit with the usual heavy focus on Falun Gong - http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/393118-reporting-zhou-yongkang-s-arrest-a-primer-on-the-power-struggle-in-beijing/

This broke an unspoken rule - that current and former members of the Politburo Standing Committee (Standing Committee only, not the larger Politburo) will not be prosecuted, regardless of what crime they may or may not have committed. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 15, 2013, 11:43:53 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 13, 2013, 03:22:09 PM

Did we ever send his insurance company a bill for repairs?

No, we ate the cost when Bush sent an apology fruit basket.  They did eventually send back the plane, in a bunch of little boxes though.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 15, 2013, 11:55:43 PM
From today's NYT Op-Ed page

QuoteContributing Op-Ed Writer
Africa and the Chinese Way
By MURITHI MUTIGA
Published: December 15, 2013

The Kamba people of Kenya claim they were warned about the evils of colonialism long before the first colonialist arrived. The legend goes that the prophet Syokimau, back in the early 19th century, told her people of "a long narrow snake spitting fire" that would make its way up from the East African Coast, bringing with it "red people" who would take away their land. She was right; it was the railroads more than anything else that enabled European colonialists to exploit Kenya's people and extract its wealth during the first half of the 20th century.

The 1,000-kilometer track stretching from the Kenyan port of Mombasa to Uganda was Britain's most ambitious project in Sub-Saharan Africa. The railroad, begun in 1895, was famously disrupted by the so-called man eaters of the Tsavo, two lions that stalked and attacked construction workers. More than 130 people are said to have been killed — the exact number is uncertain — before the animals were finally hunted down. Within the next five years the railroad was completed and the way opened to British domination of the region.

Although portions of the original railroad are still in use, the British no longer call the shots. The Chinese are the new game in town. Beijing has signed off on rail projects across the continent, from Angola in the South, Ethiopia in the East and Nigeria in the West, heralding an infrastructure-expansion boom on a scale never seen in Africa.

On Nov. 28, presidents of four African nations gathered in Mombasa for the inauguration of what was billed as the largest single project in the region's history: a $13.8 billion standard gauge rail line that is expected to link five East African countries and replace the line built by the British. The massive rail networks, almost all of them leading to the sea, will doubtless reinforce the image of a resource-hungry China eager to extract as much as possible from the continent.

In a June 2011 interview in Zambia, Hillary Rodham Clinton, then the U.S. secretary of state, warned Africans to beware of colonial powers that "come in, take out natural resources, pay off leaders and leave." Yet this focus on China's appetite for raw materials misses a more subtle challenge.

In the 20 years since the Cold War's end, free-market, multiparty democracy has been held forth as the ideal form of government (and a key to obtaining support from Washington). But now, drawn to the example set by the fast-growing economies of Asia like China, Singapore and Malaysia — all of which achieved phenomenal growth under modernizing authoritarian governments — a group of African leaders has emerged that openly declares its admiration for this mode of government.

Meles Zenawi, the Ethiopian leader from 1995 until his death in 2012, was perhaps the most forthright advocate of a system that emphasizes economic advancement over democracy. Speaking at the opening of the African Union headquarters in Addis Ababa in January 2012, Mr. Meles was effusive in his praise of China. Lauding Beijing for its aid in building the center, he declared that "the people of China and Africa share similar backgrounds that helped them to stand for one goal today, which is economic development."

Other African leaders, from Rwanda's Paul Kagame to Ali Bongo in Gabon, now speak in similar terms. Yet the growing appeal of the statist model has not drawn nearly enough attention in the West. In a talk in June sponsored by TED, the nonprofit organization that holds conferences on ideas, the Zambian economist Dambisa Moyo warned that Western powers need to pay attention to the growing admiration for the Chinese economic miracle.

Pointing to Beijing's success in moving millions of people out of poverty, she added: "It's not just in economics, but also in terms of living standards. We see that in China 28 percent of people had secondary school access. Today it's closer to 82 percent."

The statistics are impressive, but not everyone buys the idea that Africans should follow China's path. Critics note that while the leaders of Rwanda and Ethiopia have delivered considerable improvements in their people's livelihoods, neither Mr. Kagame nor Mr. Meles brooked any dissent and the repression in both lands is notorious.

Besides, other countries, notably Botswana and Mauritius, have demonstrated that economic progress does not necessarily come hand in hand with authoritarian rule.

Perhaps no country sums up the clash of ideas more clearly than Kenya, the commercial and transportation hub of East Africa and one of the most open nations on the continent. Yet Kenya's new president, Uhuru Kenyatta, who counts China as a top ally, has a clear authoritarian streak.

His allies in Parliament have moved to restrict press freedom and are seeking greater control over the judiciary. But Mr. Kenyatta, who faces trials for crimes against humanity in The Hague for his alleged role in the political violence of 2007, confronts a strong and vibrant media and an activist civil society. How Kenya resolves its tensions will have strong influence on its neighbors.

Africans are often reminded that Malaysia and Singapore had roughly the same G.D.P. 40 years ago as Kenya and Ghana have today. What is less often noted is that the Asian economic miracle was achieved by market-savvy rulers who were nonetheless authoritarian in every sense. The counterargument is that Africans will secure equitable economic growth only by replacing kleptocratic, power-hungry rulers with the checks and balances that democratic systems provide.

Will this be China's century? The answer won't be found by toting up trade figures or measuring the length of railroads. The great prophet Syokimau may have been right about the coming railroads when she predicted that the fire-spitting snake would have its tail in the Indian Ocean and its head in Lake Victoria, but alas she said nothing about how Africa's battle of ideas would play out.

Murithi Mutiga is an editor at the Nation Media Group in Kenya.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 16, 2013, 01:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 15, 2013, 11:14:34 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 15, 2013, 10:10:03 PM
If any of you care about Chinese rumours and the attempts to read the tea leaves, the Epoch Times has a pretty good summary of events thus far; albeit with the usual heavy focus on Falun Gong - http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/393118-reporting-zhou-yongkang-s-arrest-a-primer-on-the-power-struggle-in-beijing/

This broke an unspoken rule - that current and former members of the Politburo Standing Committee (Standing Committee only, not the larger Politburo) will not be prosecuted, regardless of what crime they may or may not have committed.

Yeah, but if Zhou Yongkang and his crew were trying to pull off a bona-fide armed coup, they broke some rules too.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 16, 2013, 01:46:46 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 13, 2013, 01:36:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Honest question, because I don't know the answer:

What would the USN do if the roles were reversed?  That is a PLA ship is approaching a US carrier in international waters, not listening to requests to turn around?

This is the big problem with Chinese crisis management in the rush :  they have no real operational experience in the cat-and-mouse bullshit that goes on on the high seas.  The USN has decades of experience dancing with the Russians, and it's reflected in everything from JO training to operational guidelines.  They don't sweat this stuff.  Inexperienced Chinese officers under immense political pressure to "do the right thing", though?  That's when things go wrong.

I remember reading a book, that argued that government decisions are dictated by pre-existing plans and organization.  The author used the Cuban missile crisis to illustrate his idea.  The soviets didn't really have any experience for military actions in Latin America and so they used ones for operating in Eastern Europe when setting up their missile bases, which allowed them to be easily spotted.  They really didn't have any fall-back plan for what to do if they met American resistance so after a bit of blundering about, withdrew.

I imagine the US navy has lots of plans on what to do when a hostile ship comes toward them.  The Chinese, not being a strong naval power probably lack the experience to have a bunch of detailed plans (not to mention the freedom of action that comes from being the stronger power).  So I wonder if the Poliburu is giving orders to show the flag while the Navy and Airforce are sitting around coming up with creative ways to tell them that they haven't trained for this, while lower ranking officers are expected to make shit up on the spot.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 16, 2013, 07:35:14 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 16, 2013, 01:46:46 AM
I remember reading a book, that argued that government decisions are dictated by pre-existing plans and organization.  The author used the Cuban missile crisis to illustrate his idea.  The soviets didn't really have any experience for military actions in Latin America and so they used ones for operating in Eastern Europe when setting up their missile bases, which allowed them to be easily spotted.  They really didn't have any fall-back plan for what to do if they met American resistance so after a bit of blundering about, withdrew.

Thing is, Chinese power strategy is predicated on a wholly different dynamic than that of the West, or even the Russians.  With the exception of pouring over the Yalu, Chinese demonstrations and the use of force since '49 has always been targeted at weaker powers, or at least weaker powers as the Chinese perceive them.  While the Cuban Missile Crisis was a fantastic display--probably the best display--of the concept of graduated pressure by the US, the Chinese system of crisis management and risk runs on a wholly different set of variables:  it is always scripted to a fault, with every event and outcome expected to follow form from beginning to end, because that's the way it's supposed to turn out.  And when I mean to a fault, I mean they don't insert contingency planning into the decision tree because they've never really practiced brinksmanship, not even with the Soviets after the Mao-Moscow schism.  They never had to;  they've always been able to be the bully on the block with their neighbors. 
Unfortunately for them, the 7th Fleet doesn't play those reindeer games, and the Japanese are quickly coming to the realization they don't have to anymore, either.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 17, 2013, 01:58:13 AM
Good

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25411653
QuoteJapan's cabinet has approved a new national security strategy and increased defence spending in a move widely seen as aimed at China.

Over the next five years, Japan will buy hardware including drones, aircraft and amphibious vehicles.

The military will also build a new amphibious force capable of retaking islands.


The move comes with Tokyo embroiled in a bitter row with Beijing over East China Sea islands that both claim.

It reflects concern over China's growing assertiveness over its territorial claims and Beijing's mounting defence spending.

"China's stance toward other countries and military moves, coupled with a lack of transparency regarding its military and national security policies, represent a concern to Japan and the wider international community and require close watch," the national security draft said.

'Transparent'

Japan first increased defence spending in January, after a decade of cuts.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who was elected a year ago, has called for Japan to broaden the scope of activities performed by its military - something currently tightly controlled by the post-war constitution.

He has also established a National Security Council that can oversee key issues.

Approving the national security strategy made Japan's foreign and security policy "clear and transparent - for both the Japanese people and all the world to see", he said.

The announcement comes weeks after China established an air defence identification zone (ADIZ) over a swathe of the East China Sea, including islands controlled by Japan.

It says all aircraft transiting the zone must obey certain rules, such as filing flight plans, or face "measures".

Japan, US and South Korea - which claims a rock that lies within China's declared zone - have strongly criticised the move, with the US calling it a unilateral attempt to change the status quo in the region.

China, meanwhile, says it is "closely watching Japan's security strategy and policy direction".

Mr Abe's government says the strategy is a measured and logical response to a real and increasing threat, reports the BBC's Rupert Wingfield-Hayes in Tokyo.

But others point out that Japan's security is already guaranteed by the US, which has tens of thousands of troops in Japan.

Many on the left here think Mr Abe is using the threat from China to pursue his own nationalist dreams, our correspondent adds.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 01:01:46 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 17, 2013, 01:58:13 AM
Good


Yeah, militarization in Japan always goes well.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on December 17, 2013, 01:06:22 PM
Samurai Swords for everyone!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 17, 2013, 01:08:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2013, 01:06:22 PM
Samurai Swords for everyone!

COOL
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 17, 2013, 01:44:48 PM
with a bit of "luck" things go tits up there just in time for a re-enactment of WW1. But in the far east. Think of the money that could be made by the west.

(rather not cause war is crap, of course)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: KRonn on December 17, 2013, 02:10:46 PM
Japan should be able to re-arm. Their political system is far different from what it was in WW2 days. Same for Germany. The world has changed, those nations have changed. They aren't the bogeymen anymore.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 02:29:46 PM
Quote from: KRonn on December 17, 2013, 02:10:46 PM
Japan should be able to re-arm. Their political system is far different from what it was in WW2 days. Same for Germany. The world has changed, those nations have changed. They aren't the bogeymen anymore.

The thing about military build ups is no one can predict how stable (or not) a government will be in the future.  Nobody can predict or stable or not Japan will be in the future.  We have a bad enough time worry about how stable the US is  :P

For historical perspective people were saying for similar things about Japan prior to WWI. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 02:48:15 PM
Japan has about as much chance of reverting back to militarism as Germany does, unfortunately.  Enough with the hype.  You're all listening to the bad vibes Beijing constantly puts out.  Seoul, too.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 02:48:15 PM
Japan has about as much chance of reverting back to militarism as Germany does.

That is because their societies underwent such profound changes after WWII.   A military build up inconsistent with that change.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 17, 2013, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2013, 01:06:22 PM
Samurai Swords for everyone!

Those weren't really effective infantry weapons last time around.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 02:48:15 PM
Japan has about as much chance of reverting back to militarism as Germany does.

That is because their societies underwent such profound changes after WWII.   A military build up inconsistent with that change.

Yeah, it's called "democracy".
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 02:48:15 PM
Japan has about as much chance of reverting back to militarism as Germany does.

That is because their societies underwent such profound changes after WWII.   A military build up inconsistent with that change.

Yeah, it's called "democracy".

Meh, a lot of things are called democracy - the real change was a very conscious effort to reject all things militaristic.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 04:10:57 PM
Don't know if any of you have been keeping up with it, but Reuters Investigates has been working on a massive series on China's military buildup in recent years;  latest piece just posted:

http://www.reuters.com/investigates/china-military/#article/part1

Quote
About the series

China's military budget - second only to America's - has soared to almost $200 billion. It top leader, Xi Jinping, is championing a renaissance aimed at China asserting its dominance in Asia and beyond. Its quest to modernize its military has been abetted by U.S. allies in Europe. And China's attempts to get American military technology it cannot legally acquire extends beyond cyber espionage to a broad smuggling effort that enlists local confederates whom U.S. authorities struggle to stop.

A team of Reuters journalists examined the path - and the strategy - that Beijing has chosen in its quest to counter U.S. military might.

Quote"The Chinese navy is very much afraid of the Japanese navy's real capability." Yoji Koda, retired Japanese admiral

You bet your little mandarin beanie it is.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 04:07:38 PM
Meh, a lot of things are called democracy - the real change was a very conscious effort to reject all things militaristic.

Yeah, in the officials they elect.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 04:07:38 PM
Meh, a lot of things are called democracy - the real change was a very conscious effort to reject all things militaristic.

Yeah, in the officials they elect.

God help us if culture is determined by that

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 04:13:07 PM
God help us if culture is determined by that

The nice thing about peoples like the Germans and Japanese is they never do anything in moderation.  And nothing short of anything as cataclysmic as WW2 is going to put them in reverse;  too many generations have become entrenched in post-war pacifism.  They've bought into the democratic timeshare.

Now, if at some point in the future, Japan has reason to believe the United States no longer provides a strategic nuclear umbrella, or that the U..S-predicated collective security model is a no longer valid one, well...a nation's gotta do what a nation's gotta to, regardless of government.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 17, 2013, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2013, 04:10:57 PM
Don't know if any of you have been keeping up with it, but Reuters Investigates has been working on a massive series on China's military buildup in recent years;  latest piece just posted:

http://www.reuters.com/investigates/china-military/#article/part1You bet your little mandarin beanie it is.

Looks interesting, but the article makes my browser puke :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: KRonn on December 18, 2013, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2013, 02:29:46 PM
Quote from: KRonn on December 17, 2013, 02:10:46 PM
Japan should be able to re-arm. Their political system is far different from what it was in WW2 days. Same for Germany. The world has changed, those nations have changed. They aren't the bogeymen anymore.

The thing about military build ups is no one can predict how stable (or not) a government will be in the future.  Nobody can predict or stable or not Japan will be in the future.  We have a bad enough time worry about how stable the US is  :P

For historical perspective people were saying for similar things about Japan prior to WWI.
Japan was vastly different prior to WW2 than now, wasn't it? The world has changed. Back then those nations were still trying to build empires by conquest. We could worry but IMO it's not really necessary to worry about such stable, thriving democracies like Japan and Germany now. Or we might as well worry about the US, UK, France and any other large democracy going nuts too. What we should be worried about are the rogue nations so would want the democracies to have a strong and credible military strength.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2013, 11:43:54 AM
The thing that differentiates Japan from those other countries is that it has a wacko nationalist element that has not been marginalized as it has, for example, in Germany.

Which is not to say I think Japan will be engaging in wars of conquest any time soon.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on December 18, 2013, 12:12:45 PM
Quote from: KRonn on December 18, 2013, 11:40:52 AM
Or we might as well worry about the US

When did people not worry about this? 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 19, 2013, 01:56:19 AM
Pre WW2 Japan was pretty much North Korea. It has changed a tonne.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2013, 11:43:54 AM
The thing that differentiates Japan from those other countries is that it has a wacko nationalist element that has not been marginalized as it has, for example, in Germany.

Which is not to say I think Japan will be engaging in wars of conquest any time soon.
It is pretty firmly marginalised.
There's Japanese culture at work though. Wheras in the west we see it as our duty to speak out against those we disagree with, in Japan they see it as far better to just shun them and not link yourself with them in anyway whether it be by being for or against.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Phillip V on December 22, 2013, 07:37:03 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FBF-AG432_YARN_NS_20131220182103.jpg&hash=bda6eb457b5054de3d6737bdb2b0fd0d2ff260da)

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304202204579256120230694210
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2013, 08:15:06 PM
I dare you to say something unflattering about Japan Squeeze.  :D

I have not heard mention of the subject for some time, but the last time it was in the news Japanese text books were painting a very revisionist picture of Japan's actions in WWII.

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 22, 2013, 08:38:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2013, 08:15:06 PM
I dare you to say something unflattering about Japan Squeeze.  :D
Their attitude to the environment is to cover everything in concrete and they seem completely unaware of what urban planning is.

Quote
I have not heard mention of the subject for some time, but the last time it was in the news Japanese text books were painting a very revisionist picture of Japan's actions in WWII.
That was one idiotic right winger boasting about how he had managed to get one minor detail (comfort women) removed from JHS textbooks. Comfort women don't really change the overall picture very much and I'd say there's probably a case not to mention such adult stuff in books for kids; when we learned about slavery we got the idea well enough that it was bad even without the rapey side of things.

From what I've seen of Japanese history the focus tends to be far more on the civilian suffering than on what the military got up to but I wouldn't quite say that having a different focus quite counts as revisionist, even if there could be seen to be a dodgy reason behind this choice of focus. The basic facts remain there- Japan was paranoid and more than a little insane, did bad stuff overseas, attacked the US, lost.
Whatever flaws they may have in their view of history in Japan however they seem to have a much more realistic and less revionist picture of their history than the Koreans or Chinese do.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 08:38:21 PM

That was one idiotic right winger boasting about how he had managed to get one minor detail (comfort women) removed from JHS textbooks. Comfort women don't really change the overall picture very much and I'd say there's probably a case not to mention such adult stuff in books for kids; when we learned about slavery we got the idea well enough that it was bad even without the rapey side of things.

How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2013, 08:42:18 PM
You don't think glossing over wars of conquest and brutal war crimes counts as revisionist?

And I'd never even heard about the comfort women removal.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 22, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
When you're conquering countires, plundering cities and murdering millions, the complicated issue of whether a few thousand women were prostitutes or rape victims isn't particularly necessary. Especially since we're talking about  teaching to 14 year olds here.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 22, 2013, 09:49:59 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on December 22, 2013, 07:37:03 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FBF-AG432_YARN_NS_20131220182103.jpg&hash=bda6eb457b5054de3d6737bdb2b0fd0d2ff260da)

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304202204579256120230694210

Anybody who wants the textiles industry can have it.  It is not like the Chinese want it anymore.  It is low in the food chain.  There is a conscious effort on the Chinese communists' part not to encourage the expansion of the textile industry.  Its time has passed.  Bangladesh is the go-to destination for cheap textile labour now.  The Chinese want something bigger, higher margins, more technology content, etc.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 22, 2013, 10:03:01 PM
It's that last figure that's interesting. Either Chinese factory workers are much better paid than we thought, or their system isn't very efficient. (I'm assuming those figures don't cover transportation costs, as that would be quite misleading).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 22, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
I recall seeing similar figures for the UK and China. I think it does include transport costs, they are a pretty important part of the overall picture.

What makes me sad is the cost of the new factory, the large unemployment rate and the very small 500 new jobs. Every little helps but pretty depressing that such investment only gives 500 jobs
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 22, 2013, 10:12:47 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
I recall seeing similar figures for the UK and China. I think it does include transport costs, they are a pretty important part of the overall picture.

Well, if the graphic is comparing the cost of producing them and shipping them to the Wal-Mart in Lancaster County, South Carolina, it should say so.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 11:06:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
When you're conquering countires, plundering cities and murdering millions, the complicated issue of whether a few thousand women were prostitutes or rape victims isn't particularly necessary. Especially since we're talking about  teaching to 14 year olds here.
When every 14 year old in Korea knows about it and resents Japan for brushing aside the issue it is a problem.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 23, 2013, 12:11:04 AM
Who cares what Koreans think about anything?  When it comes to the allegiance of the West, Japan will always trump South Korea.  So the Koreans should just suck it up.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: PRC on December 23, 2013, 12:40:57 AM
Chinese destroyer passing through the Strait of Magellan:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FE65L2XZ.jpg&hash=5b1d33935eafe32185b73afbc806a01edefcc0b9)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 23, 2013, 01:13:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 11:06:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
When you're conquering countires, plundering cities and murdering millions, the complicated issue of whether a few thousand women were prostitutes or rape victims isn't particularly necessary. Especially since we're talking about  teaching to 14 year olds here.
When every 14 year old in Korea knows about it and resents Japan for brushing aside the issue it is a problem.
Japan isn't to blame for Korean revisionism.

There isn't much of an issue to be had with the comfort women. Japan long ago apologized and paid compensation. Nationalists on both sides continue to try and kick up fuss about it however,with considerably more success on the Korean side
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 01:30:04 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 11:06:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
When you're conquering countires, plundering cities and murdering millions, the complicated issue of whether a few thousand women were prostitutes or rape victims isn't particularly necessary. Especially since we're talking about  teaching to 14 year olds here.
When every 14 year old in Korea knows about it and resents Japan for brushing aside the issue it is a problem.

Same in China.  The problem as I see it as Japan's refusal to come clean.  Their grandfathers did it.  All they need to do is to say sorry, won't happen again.  But no, I regularly see Japanese politicians say "it never happened."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 23, 2013, 01:40:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 23, 2013, 01:13:51 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 11:06:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
When you're conquering countires, plundering cities and murdering millions, the complicated issue of whether a few thousand women were prostitutes or rape victims isn't particularly necessary. Especially since we're talking about  teaching to 14 year olds here.
When every 14 year old in Korea knows about it and resents Japan for brushing aside the issue it is a problem.
Japan isn't to blame for Korean revisionism.

There isn't much of an issue to be had with the comfort women. Japan long ago apologized and paid compensation. Nationalists on both sides continue to try and kick up fuss about it however,with considerably more success on the Korean side
It is not revisionism. And you are being very disingenuous when describing Japan's "compensation".
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 02:14:17 AM
Any pics of a Chinese tank passing through the Khyber Pass?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 23, 2013, 08:26:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 01:30:04 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 11:06:44 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 22, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
How is that a minor issue? It's one of the two biggest issues that keeps Korea and Japan from having good relations.
When you're conquering countires, plundering cities and murdering millions, the complicated issue of whether a few thousand women were prostitutes or rape victims isn't particularly necessary. Especially since we're talking about  teaching to 14 year olds here.
When every 14 year old in Korea knows about it and resents Japan for brushing aside the issue it is a problem.
Same in China.  The problem as I see it as Japan's refusal to come clean.  Their grandfathers did it.  All they need to do is to say sorry, won't happen again.  But no, I regularly see Japanese politicians say "it never happened."
Yeah, but that's a different kettle of fish.  Given China's perfidy and evil, it would be unwise for Japan to back down even a little to them.  They'd probably try and take Kyushu as compensation.  That's why Japan needs their own nuclear deterrant ASAP.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 23, 2013, 09:01:11 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 01:30:04 AM

Same in China.  The problem as I see it as Japan's refusal to come clean.  Their grandfathers did it.  All they need to do is to say sorry, won't happen again.  But no, I regularly see Japanese politicians say "it never happened."
That's because the Chinese and Korean nationalists have already made up their mind about the Japanese. Another Japanese right wing idiot saying something horrible sells more papers/riles up the masses and that is what they want.
The version of events where everyone in Japan agrees with those select morons and the many Japanese apologies never happened, is far more fitting to the world view certain parties in China and Korea want to project. And sadly "EVIL JAPAN!!!" has more appeal than "Japan? Meh, they're OK".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Here is a big one with Japan coming clean:

QuoteJune 9, 1995: House of Representatives, National Diet of Japan passed a resolution stating: "On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse"
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 09:14:11 AM
 :lol:  "Solemnly reflecting on all the horrible wars that you others have fought, though we did too I suppose."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 23, 2013, 09:27:04 AM
"There has been a lot of war and horrible stuff in the past. Particularly relevant to us, Japan did a lot of bad shit. We're now totally opposed to war and all related actions. Sorry we weren't always this way."

I don't see the problem with tying in general commentary about being opposed to all war, imperialism, etc... along with marking out Japan in particular.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 09:31:18 AM
My kindergarten teacher wouldn't have accepted that lame ass statement as an apology after I had been bad. Little kids can do better than Japan.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 09:33:16 AM
Would you be happy with a similar apology from Germany?

"Wars of conquest are terrible things.  Ours was too.

Many times in history people have been singled out for prosecution.  That's awful, and we feel bad about being one of the many countries that did this."

Or persecution even.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 10:09:22 AM
ESL teacher fight!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 23, 2013, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 10:09:22 AM
ESL teacher fight!

I like how they are defending the country they are in. Brown nosers.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on December 23, 2013, 11:12:28 AM
Yi's right of course.
Germany did it the right way and now they are at the heart of Europe and make nice bank from all the Jewish dentists that buy Beemers.
Japan has been insincere and half-assed it and that just made the resentment fester worse.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
There are Jewish dentists?  :huh:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
How ironic.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on December 23, 2013, 11:30:14 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
How ironic.
:pinch:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 23, 2013, 12:16:26 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 23, 2013, 11:12:28 AM
Yi's right of course.
Germany did it the right way and now they are at the heart of Europe and make nice bank from all the Jewish dentists that buy Beemers.
Japan has been insincere and half-assed it and that just made the resentment fester worse.
By the metric of car sales, Japan's half-assed apologies have been far more successful than Germany's descent into pathetic, submisive loserdom.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
There are Jewish dentists?  :huh:

:unsure:  Yes?  I've only gone to Jewish or Italian dentists in my life, I think...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 23, 2013, 12:33:37 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
There are Jewish dentists?  :huh:

:unsure:  Yes?  I've only gone to Jewish or Italian dentists in my life, I think...
Sooo...  you're some kind of racist?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 12:34:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
There are Jewish dentists?  :huh:
and how!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
I've never met a Jewish dentist, except for the Israeli she-dentist who himnotized me.

Seems like sort of a cop-out, settling for dentist instead of going to medical school, and very un-Jewish.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 12:39:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 23, 2013, 12:33:37 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 12:30:13 PM
:unsure:  Yes?  I've only gone to Jewish or Italian dentists in my life, I think...
Sooo...  you're some kind of racist?

:Embarrass:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on December 23, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
I'm not racist but I am an anti-Dentite.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
I've never met a Jewish dentist, except for the Israeli she-dentist who himnotized me.

Seems like sort of a cop-out, settling for dentist instead of going to medical school, and very un-Jewish.
My best friend in elementary/middle school's dad was a Jewish dentist.  He has a very busy practice and when he retired sold it for a fuck ton of dough.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 23, 2013, 12:52:38 PM
Dentists can definitely make the big bucks.

That said, at least in the New York area, there are plenty of Jews who aren't in elite or high-end professions.  And not just in the ultra-Orthodox community.  My Jewish family has a locksmith, shoe salesman, optician, nurse, rental car manager, hardware store manager...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
Yeah, if I was my friend I would have asked Dad to mentor me so I could become a dentist and take over the practice when he retired.  Instead, my friend is now doing basically the exact same thing I do for a career. :sleep:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: HVC on December 23, 2013, 01:04:13 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
Yeah, if I was my friend I would have asked Dad to mentor me so I could become a dentist and take over the practice when he retired.  Instead, my friend is now doing basically the exact same thing I do for a career. :sleep:
How's he like HR?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 01:07:14 PM
I'd ask him if that was even remotely relevant. :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Malthus on December 23, 2013, 01:53:25 PM
Here in Canada at least, dentists can make truly big bucks. Better than family docs. 

Part of it is that, unlike the docs, dentistry up here is still mostly free-market. Docs are always complaining that the provincial public insurer doesn't pay 'em enough. The specialists make big bucks but family docs tend not to.

Another part is that most of the actual work can be done by low-cost hygenicists, with the dentist acting as the boss manager and taking a cut.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 01:56:08 PM
:yes:

Most of the time, my dentist doesn't do shit.  I could do her job easily.  All she does is look at the X-rays and review the hygienist's work, and then tap all my teeth with a pick and pretend she's double checking what the hygienist found.

She's hot, though. :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Malthus on December 23, 2013, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 01:56:08 PM
:yes:

Most of the time, my dentist doesn't do shit.  I could do her job easily.  All she does is look at the X-rays and review the hygienist's work, and then tap all my teeth with a pick and pretend she's double checking what the hygienist found.

She's hot, though. :)

"Hey Doc - how about I probe YOUR cavities this time?  :perv: "

"More nitrous oxide for this one, nurse  :mad: "
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 01:56:08 PM
:yes:

Most of the time, my dentist doesn't do shit.  I could do her job easily.  All she does is look at the X-rays and review the hygienist's work, and then tap all my teeth with a pick and pretend she's double checking what the hygienist found.

She's hot, though. :)

Does she tell you how much dose you get from the X-rays?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 02:04:34 PM
For some reason I have had hot female dentists since ~ 2002 (in Massachusetts and Kentucky both).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
My hottie gum jabber moved to Minnesota. :weep:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Caliga on December 23, 2013, 02:05:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on December 23, 2013, 02:02:26 PM
Does she tell you how much dose you get from the X-rays?
"Let's sievert those boobs, baby!"
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 23, 2013, 09:02:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 09:33:16 AM
Would you be happy with a similar apology from Germany?

"Wars of conquest are terrible things.  Ours was too.

Many times in history people have been singled out for prosecution.  That's awful, and we feel bad about being one of the many countries that did this."

Or persecution even.

For the war itself that would be a fine apology.
For the non-war related nasty actions seperate apologies are needed.

No matter how shitty you think Japan's apologies have been however, there's a long way between the commonly presented image of Japan thinking they did nothing wrong, rewriting history and not apologising at all (what I was replying to), and Japan just doing a bad job of apologising.
For the record I would agree they should do more.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 09:04:01 PM
Commonly presented by whom Squeeze?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 23, 2013, 09:06:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2013, 09:04:01 PM
Commonly presented by whom Squeeze?
China, Korea, uninformed people around the world.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 23, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
I have an alternate theory.  Instead of everyone else being wrong, maybe Tyr is wrong.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 23, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
I have an alternate theory.  Instead of everyone else being wrong, maybe Tyr is wrong.
:lmfao:
This makes absolutely no sense. It's a matter of public record that various Japanese figures have apologised many times in the past.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 23, 2013, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 23, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
I have an alternate theory.  Instead of everyone else being wrong, maybe Tyr is wrong.
:lmfao:
This makes absolutely no sense. It's a matter of public record that various Japanese figures have apologised many times in the past.

When you make an apology, it is kinda important to have the feelings of the people being apologised to in mind.  I think China and Korea have reasonable grounds to consider that the "apologies" in question are not sincere enough.  For one, the wording of such apologies is lame.  For another, various Japanese figures, ministers included, have contradicted those apologies by statements to the effect of "we didn't do it." It really isn't that difficult to make a sincere, thorough apology instead of a half-assed one. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 23, 2013, 11:55:48 PM
In other words, if anybody in Japan is ever elected who doesn't weep and gnash his teeth when Chinese and Korean nationalists complain about Japanese history, Japan's apologies are insincere?

Fuck China.  The Japanese should have exterminated them all.  The world would be a much better place with a billion fewer of those assholes in it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2013, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 23, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
I have an alternate theory.  Instead of everyone else being wrong, maybe Tyr is wrong.
:lmfao:
This makes absolutely no sense. It's a matter of public record that various Japanese figures have apologised many times in the past.

I understand that it makes no sense to you that you could possibly be wrong.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2013, 06:37:34 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 23, 2013, 11:55:48 PM
In other words, if anybody in Japan is ever elected who doesn't weep and gnash his teeth when Chinese and Korean nationalists complain about Japanese history, Japan's apologies are insincere?


Not just anybody, but the Prime Minister

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/26/22056272-backlash-at-japan-after-pm-shinzo-abe-visits-controversial-war-shrine?lite
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 06:40:24 AM
I see the shrine thing as quite different from the apology and text book things.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 07:22:04 AM
Imagine Angela Merkel visiting a religious site that honours guys like Goring and Himmler.  I know it is a calculated move designed to give a giant middle finger that says "we do as we please."  But other people have the right to be pissed too.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 07:25:59 AM
The Vietnam War Memorial lists the name of every single American KIA and MIA.  It's not a leap to assume that at least one of them committed a war crime.  Yet a person paying their respects is not honoring war crime.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 26, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
The shrine issue is an interesting one. I used to think it was an example of japan refusing to admit guilt, worshipping war criminals and all the other usual stuff one hears about it.
I did some research though... And a pm going there actually makes a fair bit of sense. It's a shrine for all those who died for japan, which yes, includes several war criminals... But if those war criminals were removed then it would be akin to saying they didn't die for japan and japan doesn't admit any guilt over their crimes.
It's a bit of a no win situation for japan really.

QuoteWhen you make an apology, it is kinda important to have the feelings of the people being apologised to in mind.  I think China and Korea have reasonable grounds to consider that the "apologies" in question are not sincere enough.  For one, the wording of such apologies is lame.  For another, various Japanese figures, ministers included, have contradicted those apologies by statements to the effect of "we didn't do it." It really isn't that difficult to make a sincere, thorough apology instead of a half-assed one.
My point is the apologies do exist. Yet it's presented that they don't. The apologies also come from far more senior figures than the various examples of idiocy that occasionally pop up.

Quote from: Razgovory on December 24, 2013, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 23, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
I have an alternate theory.  Instead of everyone else being wrong, maybe Tyr is wrong.
:lmfao:
This makes absolutely no sense. It's a matter of public record that various Japanese figures have apologised many times in the past.

I understand that it makes no sense to you that you could possibly be wrong.
Not when I'm speaking in simple facts no.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 07:31:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 26, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
My point is the apologies do exist. Yet it's presented that they don't.

Not by those here.  You're arguing in a vacuum.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 26, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
The shrine issue is an interesting one. I used to think it was an example of japan refusing to admit guilt, worshipping war criminals and all the other usual stuff one hears about it.
I did some research though... And a pm going there actually makes a fair bit of sense. It's a shrine for all those who died for japan, which yes, includes several war criminals... But if those war criminals were removed then it would be akin to saying they didn't die for japan and japan doesn't admit any guilt over their crimes.
It's a bit of a no win situation for japan really.



I think Japan can simply do what Germany does to get out of this "no win" situation. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 26, 2013, 08:12:26 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 07:57:42 AM

I think Japan can simply do what Germany does to get out of this "no win" situation. 
That's not an option for Japan. They're very big on continuity, how old their country is and all that. Maybe during the American occupation the continuity could hav been firmly broken but that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 26, 2013, 08:12:26 AM

That's not an option for Japan. They're very big on continuity, how old their country is and all that. Maybe during the American occupation the continuity could hav been firmly broken but that ship has sailed.

That excuse is lame.  If they really want to change something, I'm sure they can find a way.  They just don't want to. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 08:16:36 AM
Very lame.  They can't apologize because their country is too old?  Seriously?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2013, 08:27:51 AM
I thought there was a specific theological argument that prevented them. That the souls of those enshrined at the shrine merge into a big soul blob and the individual souls can no longer be discerned. Thus you can't just pay your respects to the non war criminals, it's all or nothing.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 08:35:55 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2013, 08:27:51 AM
I thought there was a specific theological argument that prevented them. That the souls of those enshrined at the shrine merge into a big soul blob and the individual souls can no longer be discerned. Thus you can't just pay your respects to the non war criminals, it's all or nothing.

Come on, you really believe that?  A theological argument determined government policy?  A theological argument is more important than things like national interests?  It is always the other way round - that national interests and government policy determine the theological arguments.  If they are determined to, say, remove the major war criminal's ashes from that shrine, they sure can come up with a newly discovered theological argument to justify the action. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2013, 08:39:50 AM
Japan isn't China, the monks can tell the government to fuck off.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 26, 2013, 08:44:33 AM
Yep. Some of the more controversial figures in the shrine were secretly included by the head priest. Actually after they were included the Emperor stopped visiting because he personally disapproved.

QuoteThat excuse is lame.  If they really want to change something, I'm sure they can find a way.  They just don't want to. 
You're not understanding the issue here. Its not a case of Japan deciding to do something that pisses off China with the other option being to not piss off China.
Yasukuni shrine is intended for everyone who died for Japan. Whether or not the shrine should be allowed to include war criminals (it is a private organisation) and whether important figures should visit has actually been a controversial issue in Japan.
Given the other options and the deed being already done I support including the war criminals. As things stand the shrine doesn't discriminate, it includes the best and the worst of people who died for Japan. To pick and choose who to include stinks of white washing history.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 08:16:36 AM
Very lame.  They can't apologize because their country is too old?  Seriously?
Huh? Where did you get that from? Apologies have nothing to do with the shrine issue.

Its not so much that Japan is old but that it has continuity that is an issue. With Germany you've quite clear lines between different periods, e.g. Weimar, the third reich, the Federal Republic. In Japan things aren't seen so distinctly, Japan has always been Japan, for better or worse. This shrine has been running since the 19th century and it survived through the war.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 08:45:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2013, 08:39:50 AM
Japan isn't China, the monks can tell the government to fuck off.

I can believe that they have real difficulty removing the ashes of, say, Tojo from the shrine.  I can't believe somebody forced their PM to visit the shrine. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 08:48:12 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 26, 2013, 08:44:33 AM
Huh? Where did you get that from? Apologies have nothing to do with the shrine issue.

My bad.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2013, 08:50:44 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 08:16:36 AM
Very lame.  They can't apologize because their country is too old?  Seriously?
They already apologized.  It would be unwise to apologize too often, as otherwise your enemies would think you weak and cowardly, like the Germans are.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2013, 08:51:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 26, 2013, 08:45:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 26, 2013, 08:39:50 AM
Japan isn't China, the monks can tell the government to fuck off.

I can believe that they have real difficulty removing the ashes of, say, Tojo from the shrine.  I can't believe somebody forced their PM to visit the shrine.
Why wouldn't he visit a shrine for everyone killed in the war?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 26, 2013, 08:50:44 AM
They already apologized.  It would be unwise to apologize too often, as otherwise your enemies would think you weak and cowardly, like the Germans are.

The issue is with the quality, not the quantity.

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 26, 2013, 09:25:12 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 26, 2013, 08:50:44 AM
They already apologized.  It would be unwise to apologize too often, as otherwise your enemies would think you weak and cowardly, like the Germans are.

Modern Japan is weak and cowardly, just like every Western nation.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 26, 2013, 10:06:59 AM
Neil's showing his true otaku colors in this thread.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 26, 2013, 10:09:19 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 26, 2013, 10:06:59 AM
Neil's showing his true otaku colors in this thread.

I like it that the Engrish guy is Tom Cruise'n against a real Chinese guy.

Awesome.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 26, 2013, 05:31:48 PM
So is this big gold statue of Mao the Chinese version of tit for tat? You guys honor war criminals, so we honor genociders?  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 05:34:45 PM
Mao mostly killed the hell out of the Chinese. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on December 26, 2013, 06:08:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 26, 2013, 05:34:45 PM
Mao mostly killed the hell out of the Chinese.

So they have something in common.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 26, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 26, 2013, 05:31:48 PM
So is this big gold statue of Mao the Chinese version of tit for tat? You guys honor war criminals, so we honor genociders?  :lol:

The last bunch of Chinese government officials trying to make a big deal out of honouring Mao are all languishing in prison or house arrest.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 26, 2013, 07:53:40 PM
So has Tyr gone native or is this just his normal dopey self?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 26, 2013, 08:42:29 PM
He still sounds more British than Japanese to me.

Lettow is the one going native.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2013, 09:06:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 26, 2013, 07:53:40 PM
So has Tyr gone native or is this just his normal dopey self?
Wait, really?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 26, 2013, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 26, 2013, 09:06:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 26, 2013, 07:53:40 PM
So has Tyr gone native or is this just his normal dopey self?
Wait, really?

I thought he lives in Japan these days, teaching and such.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2013, 09:31:27 PM
Yeah, all that is true.  It just rankled me for you to call him 'dopey'.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 26, 2013, 11:14:55 PM
What word would you have preferred.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2013, 11:49:22 PM
I just don't think it's appropriate for you to criticize people's politics, even though Jos is usually fairly dopey.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 27, 2013, 12:14:21 AM
In the future I'll just email my comments to Grumbler and have him relay it to Tyr.  I often do that.  If Grumbler is saying something stupid, you can bet he's doing it on my behalf.  Come to think of it, we've been doing that a lot lately.  Maybe I should stop that, people might start to think that there is something wrong Grumbles.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 27, 2013, 12:25:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 27, 2013, 12:14:21 AM
If Grumbler is saying something stupid, you can bet he's doing it on my behalf.

I think the head wound he got serving on the Monitor might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 30, 2013, 12:50:23 AM
There's no fucking way that the number on this jet is a coincidence. How can you defend this scumbag Tyr? I understand he's managed the economy better than any Japanese PM in 20 years, but he's revisionist of the worst sort.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpds.joins.com%2Fjmnet%2Fkoreajoongangdaily%2F_data%2Fphoto%2F2013%2F05%2F14214144.jpg&hash=d6cfa03cf46ee35210e88d88a5caf1e00d59a1b6)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 01:03:28 AM
This just shows how low this guy is willing to go.  I just don't understand how he can think it is a good representation of himself and Japan. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:04:54 AM
What does 731 mean?  Is that a date?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2013, 01:09:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:04:54 AM
What does 731 mean?  Is that a date?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 30, 2013, 01:40:26 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 26, 2013, 07:53:40 PM
So has Tyr gone native or is this just his normal dopey self?
There are some people on this forum who have done much better at life than me and could have some basis on which to insult me like this.
You sir, are really not one of those people. You are a living warning of how badly shit can get if I don't push onwards.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 30, 2013, 12:50:23 AM
There's no fucking way that the number on this jet is a coincidence. How can you defend this scumbag Tyr? I understand he's managed the economy better than any Japanese PM in 20 years, but he's revisionist of the worst sort.

[img]http://pds.joins.
:huh:
I haven't defended him.
And I'm not sure revisionist is the right word if you're accepting history as written but trying to wind people up about it. :contract:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:48:35 AM
Gunna pull class on me?  No matter what you do, no matter what you achieve, you'll still be your dopey self.  Even a lunatic with no prospects on the the other side of the world can see that.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:49:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 01:09:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:04:54 AM
What does 731 mean?  Is that a date?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)

Is that widely known?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 01:53:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:49:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 01:09:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:04:54 AM
What does 731 mean?  Is that a date?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)

Is that widely known?

It is very widely known, in China at least. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 30, 2013, 01:59:16 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 30, 2013, 01:40:26 AM
There are some people on this forum who have done much better at life than me and could have some basis on which to insult me like this.
You sir, are really not one of those people. You are a living warning of how badly shit can get if I don't push onwards.

Sadly, the ability to judge and insult people on the internet isn't a skill that's easy to translate into "success". As such, I don't get why you think successful people would be better at it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 30, 2013, 02:04:39 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 30, 2013, 01:59:16 AM

Sadly, the ability to judge and insult people on the internet isn't a skill that's easy to translate into "success". As such, I don't get why you think successful people would be better at it.
Somebody who is a certifiable failure and idiot decides to call other people dumb- that's a monkey throwing shit. It's stupid and meaningless.
Somebody who has done something with their life and has something going on in their noggin calls someone else an idiot- they are in a bit more of a position to judge.
They could just be an arse hole of course (the usual case) but as an insult it means a bit more to have an accountant attack your money-sense than to have a random homeless guy yelling about how much you stink.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 30, 2013, 02:12:09 AM
Raz is certainly not an idiot, whatever his other faults.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 30, 2013, 02:53:18 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:49:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 01:09:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 01:04:54 AM
What does 731 mean?  Is that a date?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)

Is that widely known?

Yes.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 30, 2013, 03:24:33 AM
I have a hard time believing he did that on purpose.  It's too beyond the pale.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 04:27:28 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 30, 2013, 03:24:33 AM
I have a hard time believing he did that on purpose.  It's too beyond the pale.

I also have a hard time believing that it is purely by chance. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2013, 04:30:21 AM
Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 04:44:14 AM
Never ascribe to conspiracy or malice what can be explained simply by stupidity.

What possible motive could anyone have for intentionally using that number? What would that even mean for the biggest Japanese political asshole you could imagine?

The worst possible claim that could be made for any politician in regards to Unit 731 is the claim that it simply did not exist, or that it didn't do the things claimed. How is sitting in a plane intentionally numbered after that Unit somehow relevant to that?

This doesn't even fucking make any sense as a potential scandal.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 04:30:21 AM
Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 04:30:21 AM
Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

Did WHAT on purpose?

What would be the point?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Agelastus on December 30, 2013, 05:16:57 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 30, 2013, 12:50:23 AM
There's no fucking way that the number on this jet is a coincidence. How can you defend this scumbag Tyr? I understand he's managed the economy better than any Japanese PM in 20 years, but he's revisionist of the worst sort.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpds.joins.com%2Fjmnet%2Fkoreajoongangdaily%2F_data%2Fphoto%2F2013%2F05%2F14214144.jpg&hash=d6cfa03cf46ee35210e88d88a5caf1e00d59a1b6)

You've been in Korea too long if you're starting to think silly things like this.

Excerpts from two comments from an English language website -

"All T-4s are given a registration number 600-800."

"Not to mention that T-4 number 731 is the lead aircraft of the Blue Impulse aerobatic team* and that team is stationed in Tohoku on a base heavily damaged by the 2011 tsunami. Abe's address to the JSDF forces on that day focused on Tsunami rescue and recovery efforts."


If there was any deeper reason for him sitting in the plane then that's it; it was the lead plane of the aerobatics team at the time. Equally likely is that, as has also been suggested, it was simply the most conveniently placed plane when the base commander learned that the PM wanted a photo-op.


*Or, to be precise, it was at the time - the full ID code of the plane is 46-5731 and at the time would have had a big 1 painted on the tailfin.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 05:21:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 04:30:21 AM
Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

Did WHAT on purpose?

What would be the point?

The same reason he went to that shrine.  To please his voters, and to show that he do as he pleases.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 08:11:11 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 05:21:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2013, 04:30:21 AM
Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

Did WHAT on purpose?

What would be the point?

The same reason he went to that shrine.  To please his voters, and to show that he do as he pleases.

So you think a bunch of his voters think that Unit 731 is way cool? So much so that he had a airplane specially painted and registered so he could sit in it and show off how much he thinks human vivisection is awesome?


That is not at all "the same as" visiting a shrine, which would be to show that he is willing to honor those who died ifghting for Japan, even if others think that is inappropriate considering they died fighting in a war of aggression. That "makes sense", if at least from the standpoint of you can see why he would think that is either politically useful or even personally important.


Nobody in Japan is sitting around claiming that Unit 731 ought to be memorialized, not even the most ardent of nationalists. They may very well be in denial about it, which is just as bad, but you don't deny the existence of something by slapping its designation on airplanes. That would be like a holocaust denier sitting around in a car with a "Auschwitz was awesome" bumper sticker.


Again, the idea that this is something other than an unfortunate coincidence simply does not make any sense.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 08:59:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 08:11:11 AM


So you think a bunch of his voters think that Unit 731 is way cool? So much so that he had a airplane specially painted and registered so he could sit in it and show off how much he thinks human vivisection is awesome?


That is not at all "the same as" visiting a shrine, which would be to show that he is willing to honor those who died ifghting for Japan, even if others think that is inappropriate considering they died fighting in a war of aggression. That "makes sense", if at least from the standpoint of you can see why he would think that is either politically useful or even personally important.


Nobody in Japan is sitting around claiming that Unit 731 ought to be memorialized, not even the most ardent of nationalists. They may very well be in denial about it, which is just as bad, but you don't deny the existence of something by slapping its designation on airplanes. That would be like a holocaust denier sitting around in a car with a "Auschwitz was awesome" bumper sticker.


Again, the idea that this is something other than an unfortunate coincidence simply does not make any sense.

If the Japanese leadership behaves like the Germans usually do, I am perfectly willing to accept that this is a coincidence.  If Angela Merkel appears in a vehicle with nazi symbols painted on it, I will believe that it is a prank and she is the victim.  Or it is a photoshop job.

But alas, the Japanese political leadership's behaviour in recent years is consistent with the hypothesis that this is a deliberate attempt to piss off Japan's neighbours. 

Anyway, how I think is not important.  I believe this photograph is being circulated among Chinese internet users as we speak, and I have reason to believe that they won't think it is a coincidence either. 

I just saw an official statement from the Chinese foreign ministry.  They say no Chinese leader will speak to this Japanese PM, ever.  He can forget going to China.  Not because of this photograph, but because of the shrine visit.  Unless he apologises, which we all know will never happen. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2013, 09:29:11 AM
This is why there can never be real understanding and peace between Japan and China.  Mono isn't usually a big 'rah-rah' nationalist guy, but when it comes to finding slights and conspiracies in every action the Japanese take, he's practically a Russian or an Arab.  The idea that Japanese voters have a soft spot for the old medical warfare team?  Utterly ridiculous.

As for Tim, he just loves jumping to conclusions without thinking anyways.  This sort of thing is no surprise from him.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Berkut on December 30, 2013, 10:00:00 AM
Quote from: Neil on December 30, 2013, 09:29:11 AM
This is why there can never be real understanding and peace between Japan and China.  Mono isn't usually a big 'rah-rah' nationalist guy, but when it comes to finding slights and conspiracies in every action the Japanese take, he's practically a Russian or an Arab.  The idea that Japanese voters have a soft spot for the old medical warfare team?  Utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, and his response makes that pretty clear - it doesn't even matter to him whether it was a coincidence or not, nor does it matter to other Chinese. If you WANT to be offended, then of course you will be very happy to assume the very worst about everything, even if you rationally know it makes no sense at all. *Especailly* if those who ARE rational about it dismiss the explanation as unimportant - Mono doesn't even CARE if it makes sense or not!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 10:27:50 AM
I decided a long time ago that I would no longer allow myself to be worked up over these incidents.  It is their shrine and their mouths.  There really is no point trying to stop them.  They just make themselves look bad with their revisionist antics. 

For the record, I don't think the Japanese voters have a soft spot for unit 731.  I do think, however, that they seem to have a soft spot for leaders who dare to do anything, especially when it comes to defiance of Japan's neighbours. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on December 30, 2013, 02:37:25 PM
Yeah, I'm not seeing that on purpose.  I had heard of the unit, but thought it fairly obscure (While heinous they weren't particularly useful, and they were rather small).  I imagine that there are many regimental numbers that signify military units that committed atrocities in China.  Besides I was under the impression that the Japanese were in denial of what they did (it goes toward their narrative of a victim), if that's so, why display the numbers of a unit known to have committed atrocities?  I don't see this as malice or stupidity, just coincidence.  I thought at first it might represent a date, something that would have more resonance.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2013, 03:28:03 PM
I just realized something!  In high school Obama was #23 on the basketball team!  He must be honouring the 23rd Division, parts of which carried out the My Lai massacre!  Appalling!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 30, 2013, 03:37:17 PM
Did he: want to be like Mike? Err, he's probably older.  :hmm:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on December 30, 2013, 03:57:08 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 30, 2013, 03:28:03 PM
I just realized something!  In high school Obama was #23 on the basketball team!  He must be honouring the 23rd Division, parts of which carried out the My Lai massacre!  Appalling!

:rolleyes: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 30, 2013, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 10:27:50 AM
They just make themselves look bad with their revisionist antics. 

could have been worse. They could be claiming all the seas up to the Phillipines
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on December 30, 2013, 07:53:27 PM
Context is key, and because the Japanese are such dicks generally about their WW2 past (including this PM) that's what makes what is likely just a coincidence into a story with the potential to be believed.  And nor can it just be ascribed to the brainwashed Chinese overreacting, since they arent the only ones who feel that way, unfortunately.

In short, if you have a bad track record of something, people are less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2013, 08:29:02 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 30, 2013, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 30, 2013, 10:27:50 AM
They just make themselves look bad with their revisionist antics. 

could have been worse. They could be claiming all the seas up to the Phillipines
Japan's shame regarding their vicious past is worse than China's total lack of shame regarding their vicious present.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on December 30, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
Saw an interesting comment by a journo in Japan today that Japan's very friendly with Turkey and he thinks there's parallels. Erdogan and Abe, in his view, both want to fundamentally change their political cultures - for Erdogan that's Kemalism and for Abe it's the 'pacifist' constitution. Which doesn't mean that Japan's going to go on mental and start invading people, they're a nation of pensioners after all.

Also I think it's interesting that Japan's faced with a difficult relationship with China. From a distance it's striking how much their nationalist/pro-military rhetoric seems to be about the past, rather than talking about how they can face China and help deal with China it largely seems to be about redeeming Japan's WW2.

In terms of cui bono, I don't know about the 731 thing but with the shrine I think an obvious bonus is if Abe wants to fundamentally change the constitution he can do that cause the Chinese (and Korea) to release bellicose statements that strengthens his argument that Japan needs to fundamentally change her 'pacifist' constitution. It helps that the US has no ally in the region who can be nearly as useful as Japan, so despite them heavily leaning on him not to go, he doesn't have to listen. For a nationalist in domestic politics it's not that different from the way Chinese politicians behave. Do something provocative to your neighbours, when they respond point to it and say 'see, this is why we need a bigger army.'
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on December 30, 2013, 09:04:08 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 30, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
Saw an interesting comment by a journo in Japan today that Japan's very friendly with Turkey and he thinks there's parallels.
Well, they both seem a little touchy about the naughty things they did in the past.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 30, 2013, 10:13:21 PM
QuoteIn terms of cui bono, I don't know about the 731 thing but with the shrine I think an obvious bonus is if Abe wants to fundamentally change the constitution he can do that cause the Chinese (and Korea) to release bellicose statements that strengthens his argument that Japan needs to fundamentally change her 'pacifist' constitution. It helps that the US has no ally in the region who can be nearly as useful as Japan, so despite them heavily leaning on him not to go, he doesn't have to listen. For a nationalist in domestic politics it's not that different from the way Chinese politicians behave. Do something provocative to your neighbours, when they respond point to it and say 'see, this is why we need a bigger army.'
There could be something to this.
Also a factor is that to the vast majority of people in Japan foreign policy is utterly irrelevant in who they will support.  For the far right however (much less than 10% of the population, I don't even know where to begin with an accurate guestimate) its practically the only thing that matters. Just like the Republicans in the US with abortion right wing Japanese politicians have to appeal to the loony right to secure their position.


On the plane issue...
Definitely true that unit 731 is a pretty obscure reference.  I saw a humerous comment elsewhere that people in Korea got so worked up about it because the papers told them it was a big deal that they should get worked up about.
Odd that the Blue Impulse leader would coincidentally have the same number...but that would appear to be the reason he chose that plane.
Still, I wouldn't put it past Abe to have done it deliberately. There's no way for him to lose. The people in Japan who would be really upset about such a thing already aren't going to support him, to the majority in the middle it is meaningless, meanwhile it gives the far right a giggle at how Abe is doing as he promised and playing the Chinese and Koreans at their own game of trying to wind up their neighbours.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2013, 01:21:29 AM
Nikkei is up 57% this year.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/japans-nikkei-closes-out-year-57-percent-its-biggest-annual-2D11819011

Surely that should be enough to get people to votes for him? He doesn't need to do this shit to get elected, he does it because at the least he's sympathetic to it.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on December 31, 2013, 03:33:28 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2013, 01:21:29 AM
Nikkei is up 57% this year.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/japans-nikkei-closes-out-year-57-percent-its-biggest-annual-2D11819011

Surely that should be enough to get people to votes for him? He doesn't need to do this shit to get elected, he does it because at the least he's sympathetic to it.
Taxes are being increased quite drastically (rarely a right wing vote winner), prices are rising and the yen is weak which isn't helping everyone. Domestic companies for instance continue to struggle. His approval rating is on a downward trend.
http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/abe-cabinet-approval-rating-drops-55-cent

That things are generally looking up is indeed bringing him a lot of  support but what politician would turn town a few free percentage points more of the vote.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 31, 2013, 03:40:37 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 31, 2013, 03:33:28 AM
but what politician would turn town a few free percentage points more of the vote.

Some third world dictators would. Getting 101% of the votes might cast doubts about their legitimacy.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Agelastus on December 31, 2013, 07:55:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 30, 2013, 10:13:21 PM
Odd that the Blue Impulse leader would coincidentally have the same number...but that would appear to be the reason he chose that plane.

The lead plane of the Blue Impulse display team rotates - that particular plane has had the numbers "5" and "7" (IIRC) as well as "1" on its tailplane in recent years; now, if you can find evidence that the rotation was changed so that that particular plane was used for the photoshoot I'll believe there was a conspiracy. Otherwise, it's just a coincidence that probably wasn't even noticed before the fuss started.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Berkut on December 31, 2013, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on December 31, 2013, 07:55:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 30, 2013, 10:13:21 PM
Odd that the Blue Impulse leader would coincidentally have the same number...but that would appear to be the reason he chose that plane.

The lead plane of the Blue Impulse display team rotates - that particular plane has had the numbers "5" and "7" (IIRC) as well as "1" on its tailplane in recent years; now, if you can find evidence that the rotation was changed so that that particular plane was used for the photoshoot I'll believe there was a conspiracy. Otherwise, it's just a coincidence that probably wasn't even noticed before the fuss started.

The "fuss" says a lot more about the mindset of the people who are fussed than it does about Japan.


If people who know, like Mono, are telling me that this is going to have traction even though it is 100% clear to anyone who is capable of even a modicum of reasoned thinking, then I suppose that means I should be aware that in any future conflict or issue that is perhaps not as obvious, at least the Chinese mindset will be driven by irrationality and paranoia. So if nothing else, the incident is a useful indicator in that sense.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 12, 2014, 11:31:10 PM
Thought this was interesting, didn't realize the Chinese were already so involved in securing the sea lanes.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/07/why-chinas-gulf-piracy-fight-matters/?hpt=wo_r1
Quote
08:36 AM ET
Why China's Gulf piracy fight matters

By Andrew S. Erickson and Austin M. Strange, Special to CNN

Editor's note: Andrew S. Erickson is an associate professor in the Strategic Research Department at the U.S. Naval War College. Austin M. Strange is a research associate at the China Maritime Studies Institute. The views expressed are the authors' alone.

December 26, Chairman Mao's birthday, is always a significant date for China. But last month's 120th anniversary came at a time when his legacy is increasingly subject to vigorous debate among the Chinese public, media, academia and even officialdom. And it also established a new landmark in contemporary Chinese history, an unprecedented milestone in Chinese foreign policy that Mao would surely be proud of: the 5th year anniversary of China's naval anti-piracy operations in the Gulf of Aden.

To honor the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN)'s contributions to maritime security off Somalia, the China Maritime Museum, located in Shanghai, opened a special exhibit that runs into March, and which features photos and actual mission mementos. Chinese media outlets continue to roll out a flurry of articles commemorating the occasion. But what is the actual significance of Chinese anti-piracy activities? And what has China accomplished there over the past five years?

First and foremost, China's naval foray into the Gulf of Aden, beginning in 2008, is a resounding response from Beijing to threats against its overseas interests. Chinese people and economic assets continue to disperse throughout the world at record pace nearly four decades after Deng Xiaoping's opening up reforms. As a result, nontraditional security breaches outside of China, such as natural disasters, terrorist attacks (and, in this case, maritime piracy) pose growing threats to Chinese national interests.

The ocean is at the center of China's "Going out" policy: China relies on seaborne shipping for the vast majority of its trade, and PLAN is emerging as China's most prominent service. Both Beijing's calculated, resolute response to Somali pirate attacks on Chinese citizens, as well as its steadfast commitment to protecting Chinese and foreign ships over the last five years, signal China's staunch commitment to ensuring safe conditions for Chinese overseas.

Statistics accumulated over the past five years make clear Beijing's commitment to security sea lines of communication (SLOCs). According to state media, the PLAN has dispatched 15,000 personnel over 16 escort taskforce flotillas since 2008, averaging three per year. Taskforces, which usually consist of China's most advanced frigates, destroyers and amphibious ships, have escorted 5,463 Chinese and foreign commercial ships – over 1,000 ships per year. PLAN forces have also thwarted more than 30 potential pirate attacks, rescued over 40 commercial ships, and escorted 11 vessels previously taken by pirates. Moreover, the fact that such information is actively recorded and publicized demonstrates the state's desire to derive maximum domestic and international publicity benefits from the missions.

Besides safeguarding national interests, China's investment in Gulf of Aden security continues to sharpen the abilities of PLAN personnel, platforms, and institutions. Operational achievements such as improved logistical supply chains, intra-navy coordination breakthroughs and greater focus on sailors' morale are a few highlights of the mission that have real consequences for broader Chinese military development. Chinese sailors have, to put it bluntly, used Gulf of Aden operations to grow from "maritime rookies" to "confident seadogs."

These lessons are readily apparent to China's navy and the rest of the world. Yet the PLAN's Gulf of Aden five-year anniversary is a milestone for reasons beyond the military domain. For those interested in China's role in 21st century international society, five years off the coast of Somalia have allowed the opportunity to observe China in its first protracted, direct operational role within the context of international security outside of East Asia. The PLAN has embodied the spirit of "creative involvement" off Somalia, operating independent of but in parallel with Western and other naval forces.

More broadly, the missions signal that Beijing appears willing to cooperate with the United States and other naval powers to tackle nontraditional security challenges placing all sides "in the same boat." Those calling on the Middle Kingdom to grow into a responsible stakeholder following persistent economic development and ascendancy in status can therefore cite Gulf of Aden anti-piracy as a modest but welcome example.

It may not be surprising to see states joining forces against nontraditional threats like piracy since there are clear economic and political incentives for cooperating rather than competing. But the fact that China continues to work actively with U.S., Japan and European navies off Somalia is unprecedented given choppy maritime relations between these states in the Asia-Pacific. The Gulf of Aden has played the foil to China's assertive reputation in the contentious East and South China Seas, where Beijing's behavior is increasingly perceived as counterproductive and downright dangerous.

True, while five years is a significant commitment, it would be unrealistic to suggest that the Gulf of Aden experience might directly impact maritime relations in other regions, such as the Yellow, East, and South China Seas – rife with tensions over core interests between Beijing and its neighbors. Yet China's global maritime engagement stretches far beyond the waters of East Asia, and the world will expect more genuine contributions from Beijing as its stake in international security grows regardless of the state of affairs in China's immediate neighborhood. Indeed, in the 21st century China's foreign policy is being pulled in different directions as Beijing strives to balance traditional principles with pragmatic needs.

Ultimately, while tensions remain close to home, five years of uninterrupted anti-piracy deployments in distant seas reflects a qualitative improvement in Chinese global security engagement, a development that should be welcomed by the international community. If China and other states can look to the Gulf of Aden as a model for pragmatic cooperation, it might encourage a more active yet more transparent Chinese presence in other areas of international security.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 12, 2014, 11:36:48 PM
Disgusting!  :mad:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/28/how-chinese-censorship-is-reaching-overseas/
QuoteHow Chinese censorship is reaching overseas

By Sarah Cook, Special to CNN

Editor's note: Sarah Cook is a senior research analyst for East Asia at Freedom House and author of report The Long Shadow of Chinese Censorship, which was released October 22 by the National Endowment for Democracy's Center for International Media Assistance. The views expressed are her own.

The efforts of China's leaders to prevent its citizens from circulating information inconvenient to the ruling Communist Party are well known. But while censorship is a daily reality for media outlets inside mainland China, their counterparts abroad are increasingly finding themselves under pressure as well.

China's leaders, it seems, have become more ambitious in their attempts to control the news.

Take last year, when reports surfaced that China's ambassador to the United States met with Bloomberg's editor-in-chief to try to persuade the outlet not to run a story about the finances of Communist Party leader Xi Jinping's family. Last May, meanwhile, popular Taiwanese talk show host Cheng Hung-yi resigned after station executives allegedly tried to stop his program from touching on topics sensitive to Beijing. And back in 2011, reportedly at Beijing's urging, a court in Hanoi sentenced two Vietnamese citizens who practice Falun Gong to prison for transmitting radio broadcasts about human rights abuses and corruption from their farm to listeners in China.

These are far from the only examples of how the Chinese Communist Party's media controls extend past China's borders, in a push documented in a report published last week by the Center for International Media Assistance, which examines a range of media outlets based outside China, from major international media to local outlets in Asia, Africa, and Latin America and elsewhere. And the findings are clear: the "China Factor" looms over newsrooms across the globe.

As the report notes, the pressure has sometimes been overt, with Chinese officials impeding independent reporting by barring foreign correspondents from the sites of significant incidents, pressuring senior executives not to publish content, or simply refusing to issue visas.

But more common – and arguably more effective – has been the carrot and stick approach that induces subtle self-censorship among media owners and outlets. Those perceived as friendly to Beijing might, for example, be rewarded with advertising, access to Chinese audiences, lucrative contracts for non-media enterprises, and even political appointments. Those deemed too critical can face not just visa restrictions for reporters, but lost advertising and blocked websites. As a result, some outlets have become increasingly wary over covering "hot button" issues such as the persecution of Tibetans, Uighurs and Falun Gong practitioners.

More from CNN: China 'employs 2 million to police internet'

Indirect pressure can also be applied via proxies, including advertisers, satellite firms, and foreign governments, with out-of-favor outlets likely to be boycotted or have their transmission signals cut.

Thus, it has not only been media organizations themselves that have moved to restrict access to information. Earlier this month, CNN reported that Apple had been accused of "kowtowing to the Chinese government" after "pulling from its China App Store a product enabling users to circumvent firewalls and access restricted sites." This wasn't the first time since 2011 that Apple had removed apps that people in China used to access independent overseas Chinese media or bookstores.

A more extreme example of how Western businesses can get caught in the middle of transnational Chinese censorship occurred in 2007. Last year, a WikiLeaks cable suggested that Chinese security officials had summoned and interrogated NASDAQ's chief representative in China, U.S. citizen Lawrence Pan.

According to the cable, the questioning focused on a journalist who had been reporting from the exchange's New York headquarters for New Tang Dynasty Television (NTDTV), an outlet founded by Falun Gong practitioners in the United States to broadcast news and cultural programming to Chinese audiences. The cable added that Pan, "to secure his release, may have pledged to Chinese authorities that NASDAQ would no longer allow" such access. Indeed, starting in February 2007, NTDTV's correspondent was suddenly barred from the building after reporting from there on a daily basis for more than a year.

Some international companies have been more proactive in their assistance to Chinese censors. In 2008, Reporters Without Borders released the transcript of a telephone recording in which a representative of the French satellite company Eutelsat admitted that the firm had cut the signal of that same television station to "show a good gesture to the Chinese government."

While some of these dynamics date back to the 1990s, they have intensified and expanded over the past five years. Physical assaults against foreign reporters in China have become more violent, while Beijing's efforts to influence newsroom decisions in Hong Kong have intensified, expanding to topics touching on the territory's internal politics. In Taiwan, meanwhile, self-censorship is increasing, as media owners seek new sources of revenue from mainland entities. And major Western news outlets have found themselves facing the kinds of restrictions – including wholesale website blocking and intrusive cyber-attacks – usually reserved for dissident Chinese websites.

The paradoxical combination of the Communist Party feeling emboldened internationally and insecure domestically has only fueled this trend. With more than half of China's population now accessing the Internet, and with some political content going viral despite domestic censors' efforts, the Party's nervousness of overseas news trickling in has increased.

These dynamics have a damaging real-world impact. For international audiences, the information targeted for censorship includes topics that have global implications, such as human rights abuses, high-level corruption, and environmental pollution. For Chinese, the stakes are even higher. Overseas media outlets offer a vital source of information on matters with life-or-death consequences and a precious forum for debating the past, present, and future of their country.

Still, there are clear limits to Beijing's reach. Media outlets around the world daily put out news that the Communist Party would likely prefer unreported, while journalists, activists, owners, and independent courts have pushed back against pressure and scored some important victories. The result is a complex and ever-changing negotiation over where the "red line" lies.

As China's international role expands, this transnational tug-of-war will become more important. Supporters of media freedom – be they journalists, policymakers, or news consumers – must therefore develop an open-eyed strategy for protecting and expanding the free flow of information about one of the world's most prominent nations.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 12, 2014, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 12, 2014, 11:31:10 PM
Thought this was interesting, didn't realize the Chinese were already so involved in securing the sea lanes.

That's because you haven't been paying attention, peg leg.

QuoteUltimately, while tensions remain close to home, five years of uninterrupted anti-piracy deployments in distant seas reflects a qualitative improvement in Chinese global security engagement, a development that should be welcomed by the international community. If China and other states can look to the Gulf of Aden as a model for pragmatic cooperation, it might encourage a more active yet more transparent Chinese presence in other areas of international security.

The Chinese are only going to be as "transparent" about their presence overseas as much as it plays into the orchestration of the big PR machine of a benevolent China.  Sea of Aden, sure.  Scarborough Shoal, not so much.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: 11B4V on January 17, 2014, 12:06:42 PM
Clone soldiers next?

Quote
China Has the World's First 'Cloning Factory'

(Newser) – Remember when a cloned animal was a big deal? Welcome to the brave new world in Shenzhen, China, where the company BGI is churning out 500 cloned pigs a year, reports David Shukman at the BBC. Shukman got a tour of the facility and even watched the surgical procedure in a not-so-sanitary operating room—two sows are implanted a day, with a success rate of about 80%. "The technology involved is not particularly novel," he writes, "but what is new is the application of mass production." In fact, one company scientist uses the phrase "cloning factory" to describe what's going on. The pigs are being produced not to eat but to be the subjects of drug tests; many have had their genes modified to make them, for example, more susceptible to Alzheimer's.

On the genetics front, the company has a staggering 156 gene-sequencing machines on site (Europe's largest gene-sequencing center has one-fifth that amount) and even bought a US company that makes them. What lucky animals make the cut? "If it tastes good you should sequence it," says BGI's chief executive. "You should know what's in the gene of that species." Also, "anything that looks cute: panda, polar bear, penguin, you should really sequence it." The company says it's all for the greater in good terms of food production and health care. "In many ways, that's pretty cool," writes Jamie Condliffe at Gizmodo. "This was supposed to be future, but it's happening here and now—but the sheer pace and questionable standards described by Shukman provide at least some cause for concern." (More wild cloning news: Scientists clone "unclonable" tree.)

http://www.newser.com/story/180749/china-has-the-worlds-first-cloning-factory.html
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2014, 06:40:12 PM
QuoteAlso, "anything that looks cute: panda, polar bear, penguin, you should really sequence it." The company says it's all for the greater in good terms of food production and health care.

I bet.  Little yellow bastards.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on January 17, 2014, 07:24:31 PM
I am a bit sceptical about this report.  Is the traditional way of raising pigs really that expensive or difficult as to warrant the commercial production of cloned pigs? 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on January 17, 2014, 07:26:14 PM
A machine for pigs?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on January 18, 2014, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 17, 2014, 07:24:31 PM
I am a bit sceptical about this report.  Is the traditional way of raising pigs really that expensive or difficult as to warrant the commercial production of cloned pigs?

They do that to obtain desirable traits. Actually the pigs are probably raised in the traiditional way once the embryo is created.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on January 22, 2014, 05:04:38 AM
http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2014/01/21/actualidad/1390325349_757662.html

Quote
[Leaked Records Reveal Offshore Holdings of China's Elite
Files Shed Light On More Than 20,000 Tax Haven Clients from Hong Kong and Mainland China

Chinaleaks: Los papeles de los paraísos fiscales
两万多名中国内地及香港投资者在避税天堂注册公司
MARINA WALKER GUEVARA, GERARD RYLE, ALEXA OLESEN, MAR CABRA, MICHAEL HUDSON AND CHRISTOPH GIESEN 21 ENE 2014 - 18:38 CET
Close relatives of China's top leaders have held secretive offshore companies in tax havens that helped shroud the Communist elite's wealth, a leaked cache of documents reveals.

The confidential files include details of a real estate company co-owned by current President Xi Jinping's brother-in-law and British Virgin Islands companies set up by former Premier Wen Jiabao's son and also by his son-in-law.


Nearly 22,000 offshore clients with addresses in mainland China and Hong Kong appear in the files obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists. Among them are some of China's most powerful men and women — including at least 15 of China's richest, members of the National People's Congress and executives from state-owned companies entangled in corruption scandals.

PricewaterhouseCoopers, UBS and other Western banks and accounting firms play a key role as middlemen in helping Chinese clients set up trusts and companies in the British Virgin Islands, Samoa and other offshore centers usually associated with hidden wealth, the records show. For instance, Swiss financial giant Credit Suisse helped Wen Jiabao's son create his BVI company while his father was leading the country.

The files come from two offshore firms — Singapore-based Portcullis TrustNet and BVI-based Commonwealth Trust Limited — that help clients create offshore companies, trusts and bank accounts. They are part of a cache of 2.5 million leaked files that ICIJ has sifted through with help from more than 40 reporting partners in Europe, North America, Asia and other regions.

Since last April, ICIJ's stories have triggered official inquiries, high-profile resignations and policy changes around the world.

Until now, the details on China and Hong Kong had not been disclosed.

The data illustrates the outsized dependency of the world's second largest economy on tiny islands thousands of miles away. As the country has moved from an insular communist system to a socialist/capitalist hybrid, China has become a leading market for offshore havens that peddle secrecy, tax shelters and streamlined international deal making.

Every corner of China's economy, from oil to green energy and from mining to arms trading, appears in the ICIJ data.

Chinese officials aren't required to disclose their assets publicly and until now citizens have remained largely in the dark about the parallel economy that can allow the powerful and well-connected to avoid taxes and keep their dealings secret. By some estimates, between $1 trillion and $4 trillion in untraced assets have left the country since 2000.

The growing onshore and offshore wealth of China's elites "may not be strictly illegal," but it is often tied to "conflict of interest and covert use of government power," said Minxin Pei, a political scientist at Claremont McKenna College in California. "If there is real transparency, then the Chinese people will have a much better idea of how corrupt the system is [and] how much wealth has been amassed by government officials through illegal means."

Top-level corruption is a politically sensitive issue in China as the country's economy cools and its wealth gap continues to widen. The country's leadership has cracked down on journalists who have exposed the hidden wealth of top officials and their families as well as citizens who have demanded that government officials disclose their personal assets.

In November, a mainland Chinese news organization that was working with ICIJ to analyze the offshore data withdrew from the reporting partnership, explaining that authorities had warned it not to publish anything about the material.

ICIJ is keeping the identity of the news outlet confidential to protect journalists from government retaliation. Other partners in the investigation include the Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao, the Taiwanese magazine CommonWealth and the German newspaper SüddeutscheZeitung.

The ICIJ team spent months sifting through the files and the leaked lists of offshore users. In most cases, names were registered in Romanized form, not Chinese characters, making matching extremely difficult. Many offshore users had provided a passport as well as an address when they set up their companies, which made it possible to confirm identities in many but not all cases. Some suspected princelings and officials in the files could not be confirmed and have not been included in this story.

Along with the China and Hong Kong names, ICIJ's files also include the names of roughly 16,000 offshore clients from Taiwan. ICIJ will continue to publish stories with its partners in the next few days and will release the Greater China names on its Offshore Leaks Database on Jan. 23.

Princelings go offshore

China's Politburo Standing Committee is the all-powerful group of seven (formerly nine) men who run the Communist Party and the country. The records obtained by ICIJ show that relatives of at least five current or former members of this small circle have incorporated companies in the Cook Islands or British Virgin Islands.

China's "red nobility" — elites tied by blood or marriage to the current leadership or Party elders — are also popularly known as "princelings." Ordinary Chinese have grown increasingly angry over their vast wealth and what many see as the hypocrisy of officials who tout "people-first" ideals but look the other way while their families peddle power and influence for personal gain.

The leaked offshore records include details of a BVI company 50 percent owned by President Xi's brother-in-law Deng Jiagui. The husband of Xi's older sister, Deng is a multimillionaire real estate developer and an investor in metals used in cell phones and other electronics. The records show the other half of Excellence Effort Property Development was owned by yet another BVI company belonging to Li Wa and Li Xiaoping, property tycoons who made news in July by winning a $2 billion bid to purchase commercial real estate in Shenzhen.

Since taking over as the Communist Party's top official in 2012, Xi has sought to burnish his image with an aggressive anti-graft campaign, promising to go after official corruption involving both low-level "flies" and high-level "tigers." Yet he has crushed a grassroots movement that called for government officials to publicly declare their assets. Wen Jiabao, who stepped down as premier in 2013 after a decade-long tenure, also styled himself as a reformer, cultivating an image of grandfatherly concern for China's poor.

The ICIJ offshore files reveal that Wen's son Wen Yunsong set up a BVI-registered company, Trend Gold Consultants, with help from the Hong Kong office of Credit Suisse in 2006. Wen Yunsong was the lone director and shareholder of the firm, which appears to have been dissolved in 2008.

Bare-bones company structures are often created to open bank accounts in the offshore firm's name, helping obscure the relationship to the real account owner. It isn't immediately clear from the documents what Trend Gold Consultants was used for. A U.S.-educated venture capitalist, Wen Yunsong co-founded a China-focused private equity firm and in 2012 became chairman of China's Satellite Communications Co., a state-owned firm that aspires to be Asia's largest satellite operator.

ICIJ made repeated attempts to reach Wen Yunsong and other individuals named in this story. Only a few responded. Wen was among those who did not. Citing confidentiality rules, a Credit Suisse spokesman said the bank is "unable to comment on this matter."

The ICIJ files also shed light on the BVI's previously unreported role in a burgeoning scandal involving Wen Jiabao's daughter, Wen Ruchun, also known as Lily Chang. The New York Times has reported that JPMorgan Chase & Co. paid a firm that she ran, Fullmark Consultants, $1.8 million in consulting fees. U.S. securities regulators are investigating the relationship as part of a probe into the bank's alleged use of princelings to increase its influence in China.

Fullmark Consultants appears to have been set up in a manner that obscured Wen Ruchun's relationship to the firm, the ICIJ files indicate. Her husband Liu Chunhang, a former Morgan Stanley finance guru, created Fullmark Consultants in the BVI in 2004 and was the sole director and shareholder of the firm until 2006, the same year he took a government job at the agency that polices Chinese securities markets.

Liu transferred control of the company, the ICIJ files show, to a Wen family friend, Zhang Yuhong, a wealthy businesswoman and colleague of Wen Jiabao's brother. The Times reported that Zhang also helped control other Wen family assets including diamond and jewelry ventures.

The ICIJ files show that offshore provider Portcullis TrustNet billed UBS AG for a certificate of good standing for Fullmark Consultants in October 2005, indicating a business relationship between Fullmark and the Swiss bank. In response to ICIJ's questions, UBS issued a statement saying its "know-your-client" policies as well as procedures to deal with politically-sensitive clients are among "the strictest in the industry."

A 2007 U.S. Department of State cable passed along a source's tip that Premier Wen was "disgusted with his family's activities," and that "Wen's wife and children all have a reputation as people who can 'get things done' for the right price." The cable, part of the Wikileaks document dump, reported that Wen's kin "did not necessarily take bribes, [but] they are amenable to receiving exorbitant 'consulting fees.' "

The records also include incorporations by relatives of Deng Xiaoping, former Premier Li Peng, and former President Hu Jintao.

China experts say that the growing wealth and business interests of the princelings, including offshore holdings, are a dangerous liability for the ruling Communist Party but that people in leadership positions are too involved to stop it.

"What's the point of running the Communist Party if you can't get a couple billion for your family?" said Steve Dickinson, a China-based American lawyer who has investigated fraud cases involving BVI companies. "The issue is enormous and has tremendous significance for China, and the fact that everybody dances around it and doesn't want to talk about it is understandable but scandalous."

China embraces offshore

The story of China's involvement with the offshore world begins with paramount leader Deng Xiaoping's deepening of economic reforms in the early 1990s.

Laws reorganizing China's economy drove many Chinese offshore because they were written with state-owned enterprises in mind, not fledgling ventures like the entrepreneur trying to "market the latest iPhone app," according to Don Clarke, a China specialist at the George Washington University Law School in Washington, D.C.

Western bankers, accountants and investors wary of doing business on strictly Chinese terms also pushed the offshore model.

"It was us, the foreigners, that imposed this," said Rocky Lee, head of the Greater China corporate law practice of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft. "It had to do with the foreign investors' general discomfort with Chinese rules and regulations."

Other factors — including tightened capital controls within China as a result of the 1990s Asian debt crisis — also nudged Chinese offshore. Many flocked to Hong Kong, then still a British territory, to incorporate businesses. As the 1997 handover back to China approached, though, Hong Kong itself began to look risky and many companies sought more far-flung offshore destinations.

The British Virgin Islands became a favorite haven for Chinese wanting to move businesses and cash offshore.

China's tax regime favored foreign investment, helping fuel the push to incorporate in the BVI and other offshore centers. Some Chinese manufacturers, for example, reduced their taxes by a maneuver known as "round-tripping" — setting up subsidiaries outside the country, then selling their products at low cost to the subsidiaries, allowing the parent companies to avoid taxes by showing little or no profits inside China. The offshore entities in turn resold the goods at profitable markup — then slipped the profits back to the parents as untaxed "foreign investment" from the BVI or Hong Kong.

Today 40 percent of the BVI's offshore business comes from China and other Asian nations, according to BVI authorities.

Frank Savage, the BVI's governor from 1998 to 2002, says the islands helped cultivate the relationship by persuading Chinese authorities that they were a "well-regulated territory with a robust and sound legal system."

Critics of the offshore system, though, see the BVI in a different light — as a "no-questions-asked" haven for shadowy dealings. Tax Justice Network, an advocacy group headquartered in the U.S. and the U.K., says BVI offshore entities have been linked to "scandal after scandal after scandal" — the result of a corporate secrecy regime that creates an "effective carte blanche for BVI companies to hide and facilitate all manner of crimes and abuses."

Among the important Chinese who went offshore in the late 1990s was Fu Liang, the son of Peng Zhen, one of the "Eight Elders" of the Communist Party and a top leader of the National People's Congress in the 1980s.

Offshore Leaks records show Fu — who has invested in railroads, yachting clubs and golf courses on the mainland — controlled at least five offshore companies established in the BVI between 1997 and 2000. He used one of them, South Port Development Limited, to acquire a Philippines hotel in 2000.

TrustNet, the offshore services provider, helped Fu set up his offshore companies. By 2000, Trustnet was among the offshore services firms that were making an all-out drive to sign up clients from China, doing marketing meetings at the Shanghai offices of what were then known as the "Big 5" accounting firms: KPMG, Ernst & Young, Pricewaterhouse, Deloitte & Touche, and Arthur Andersen.

The audit firm now known as PricewaterhouseCoopers helped incorporate more than 400 offshore entities through TrustNet for clients from the mainland, Hong Kong and Taiwan, the ICIJ records show. Swiss banking giant UBS helped set up more than 1,000 offshore structures via TrustNet for clients from those three markets.

UBS Hong Kong helped Yang Huiyan, China's richest woman, with an estimated net worth of US$ 8.3 billion, establish a BVI company in 2006. Yang, who inherited a real estate fortune from her father, did not respond to questions about her offshore company, Joy House Enterprises Limited.

The following year the Swiss bank referred another Chinese real estate billionaire, Zhang Xin, to TrustNet. Zhang, founder of Soho China, a company that has reshaped much of the Beijing skyline, recently made headlines by buying a $26 million Manhattan townhouse. Through a representative, Zhang declined to answer questions about her BVI company Commune Investment Ltd., a name similar to that of her exclusive boutique hotel outside Beijing, the Commune by the Great Wall.

Li Jinyuan, a business tycoon and philanthropist with a net worth estimated at $1.2 billion in 2011, was director of seven BVI companies that PricewaterhouseCoopers helped incorporate between 2004 and 2008. According to the ICIJ files, the BVI companies appear to be connected to his Tiens Group conglomerate, which has interests in biotechnology, tourism, e-commerce and real estate.

In a 2005 marketing memo marked "strictly private and confidential," TrustNet staffers were encouraged to improve ties with Credit Suisse in Hong Kong. They courted Credit Suisse and UBS with wine and cheese sessions. On the mainland, where foreign banks were restricted, they took a different tack: "In Shanghai, we will target international law firms and accounting firms," the 2005 memo says.

The marketing campaign paid off. The number of companies TrustNet set up for clients in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan tripled from 1,500 to 4,800 between 2003 and 2007.

The TrustNet clients who incorporated companies during this period include two current delegates to the National People's Congress, China's legislature.

Wei Jianghong, who represents Anhui province in the legislature while serving as chairman of state-owned Tongling Nonferrous Metals, was a director of Tong Guan Resources Holdings, a BVI company set up in 2006. Tongling used Tong Guan to invest $10 million in a $50 million copper processing project in Chile in 2007.

Another delegate with offshore holdings is Ma Huateng, the founder of China's leading online chat company, Tencent. Ma is worth $10 billion and is ranked No. 5 on Forbes' list of billionaires in China. In 2007, he became director of TCH Pi Limited in the BVI with fellow Tencent founder Zhang Zhidong.

A spokeswoman for Ma said TCH Pi is a Tencent company that "has nothing to do with [Ma or Zhang] personally," but the firm doesn't show up in Tencent corporate filings, and its purpose isn't clear.

Profits and corruption

Things have changed dramatically for China since it first dipped its toe into the offshore world. The country is wealthier and offshore centers serve increasingly as channels not only for capital that "round-trips" out of the country and back again, but also for overseas investment and accessing markets for metals, minerals and other resources.

Defenders of China's offshore push say the offshore system has helped boost the country's economy.

"I think we should face the reality, which is that Chinese capital is flowing out. I think it's actually a beneficial thing," said Mei Xinyu, a researcher at China's Commerce Ministry. "Of course I support the idea that a company should incorporate in its host country. But if the host country can't provide the right environment, then incorporating the company in an offshore center is actually a practical choice."

With markets in China often hamstrung by red tape and government intervention, incorporating offshore can smooth the way to do business, said William Vlcek, author of Offshore Finance and Small States: Sovereignty, Size and Money.

There's also evidence, though, that many Chinese companies and individuals have used offshore entities to engage in illicit or illegal behavior.

In September Zhang Shuguang, a former high-level Chinese railway executive, pleaded guilty to criminal charges in the wake of allegations that he'd funneled $2.8 billion into offshore accounts. An internal government report released by the Bank of China revealed that public officials — including executives at state-owned companies — had embezzled more than $120 billion out of China since the mid-1980s, some of it funneled through the BVI.

Portcullis TrustNet helped state-run shipping giant Cosco incorporate a BVI company in 2000. Among the numerous directors of Cosco Information Technology Limited were current Cosco Group chairman Ma Zehua and Song Jun, an executive who would stand trial in 2011 for embezzlement and bribery. After Cosco sent Song to help oversee a Qingdao subsidiary in 2001, he set up a fake BVI joint venture partner and used it to siphon millions from the building of Qingdao's gleaming Cosco Plaza, prosecutors said. State news service Xinhua said he embezzled $6 million, took $1 million in bribes from a Taiwanese business partner and purchased 37 apartments in Beijing, Tianjin and Qingdao with his ill-gotten earnings. His trial was adjourned but no verdict was publicly announced.

China's corruption-plagued oil industry — which recently has been the target of criminal investigations that have led to the suspension of key oil executives — is a big player in the offshore world. China's three big state-owned oil companies, which are counted among the largest companies in the world, are linked to dozens of BVI companies that show up in the ICIJ data.

Former PetroChina executive Li Hualin, who was dismissed in August after coming under investigation for alleged "serious violations of discipline", often a party shorthand for corruption, was the director of two BVI companies, the ICIJ files reveal.

While some of these offshore firms are disclosed in corporate filings, several others linked to individual executives — including Zhang Bowen of PetroChina's natural gas distribution arm Kunlun Energy and Yang Hua of China National Offshore Oil Corporation — appear to operate in the dark, and their purpose is not clear. PetroChina and CNOOC did not respond to ICIJ's repeated requests for comment.

Other scandal-tainted Chinese who have used the BVI to do business include Huang Guangyu, once China's richest man. The ICIJ records show that he and his wife Du Juan set up a maze of at least 31 BVI companies between 2001 and 2008 as they built the largest consumer electronics retail chain in China.

The husband, Huang, was sentenced to 14 years in prison in 2010 after Chinese courts convicted him of insider trading, bribery and stock price manipulation. Du Juan was convicted of related charges but was released from prison in 2010 after serving a brief time.

While Huang is in prison and many of his assets are frozen, his business empire survives through his offshore network of companies. In 2011, one of his BVI firms, Eagle Vantage Assets Management, made a bid for a retired British aircraft carrier that Huang wanted to turn into a luxury shopping mall (the Brits in the end decided to scrap the ship).

He still owns more than 30 percent of Gome, his electronics retailer, via two companies in the BVI, Shining Crown Holdings and Shine Group.

Offshore's future

As concerns grow about the wealth of corporate oligarchs, government officials and their families, some Chinese have braved the government's anger by raising questions about corruption.

A grassroots group, the New Citizens Movement, uses the Internet and small demonstrations to press for greater transparency. "How can you fight corruption if you don't even dare to disclose your personal assets?" the group's founder, civil rights lawyer Xu Zhiyong, wrote this spring.

The government's response has been swift. It has arrested Xu and detained more than 20 other members of the group, indicting some for "disturbing public order" or "illegal assembly," charges frequently used to silence dissidents.

The government has also cracked down on foreign media that have focused attention on the gap between wealth and poverty in China. After The New York Times and Bloomberg News reported on the onshore assets of China's princelings, the government blocked their websites and delayed approving visas for their journalists.

After years of inaction, the U.S., the U.K. and international organizations have begun pushing reforms that, they say, would reduce offshore abuses. China has been less aggressive in pressing for changes in the offshore system.

Big loopholes in tax laws have allowed Chinese individuals to operate with relative freedom offshore. They weren't required to report their foreign holdings.

"Chinese policy makers didn't envision individuals absconding with that much money," Lee, the Beijing-based corporate lawyer, said.

Now mainland authorities are moving to get a handle on the flow of private wealth offshore. New rules that went into effect Jan. 1 require Chinese to report their overseas assets.

How aggressively China joins global efforts to reshape the offshore system may have a big impact on the current push for reform. Just as China has become an increasingly important player in the global economy, it has also become more important as a supplier of clients to the market for offshore accounts and companies.

A 2013 industry-sponsored poll of 200-plus bankers and other offshore professionals found that "China-related demand" is the key driver in the offshore market's growth. The chief of a BVI offshore services firm said in the survey: "China is the most important location for client origination for business in the next five years."

I'm shocked, SHOCKED.

Apparently China is blocking media carrying the information.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on January 22, 2014, 11:57:54 AM
I enjoyed the CNN reporter getting roughed up.

chick cop starts steering him away from courthouse
CNN reporter: I HAVE MAH RIGHTS
Reporter's head goes into side of minivan
Ed Anger gets erection
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 22, 2014, 05:54:27 PM
The Chinese like to hoard their gold.  That's some Dick Fucking Tracy detective work right there.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 24, 2014, 12:13:07 PM
Decent interview. (http://www.businessinsider.com/ian-bremmer-davos-2014-1)


Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on January 24, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
The Japan policy is tactically sound but strategically incoherent.  Conflict with Japan would be insane - there is no gain for China other than rallying popular support internally (but likely in way the Party can't ultimately control).  There are no strategic interests of significance.  The disputed islands themselves are useless.  If China's ultimate goal is to achieve economic dominance over the offshore resources, that is easily within its grasp - but its aggressive assertion of territorial rights has been entirely counterproductive towards that end - they have actually managed to stir up a unanimous (if un-unified) coalition of neighboring states against those claims, raising the specter of encirclement.  I do not think the departure from Dengist strategic subtlety is part of some carefully worked out plan; rather it is a symptom of a breakdown of consensus within and among the Party and the military/defense organs about how to exercise China's growing power.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 31, 2014, 07:20:53 PM
Happy New Year!!!


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfV8GUSCQAAEkx7.jpg)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on January 31, 2014, 08:27:30 PM
Nice. :cheers:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on February 24, 2014, 07:52:17 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/23/us-china-germany-idUSBREA1M12520140223
QuoteExclusive: China, eyeing Japan, seeks WW2 focus for Xi during Germany visit
BY BEN BLANCHARD AND MICHAEL MARTINA

(Reuters) - China wants to make World War Two a key part of a trip by President Xi Jinping to Germany next month, much to Berlin's discomfort, diplomatic sources said, as Beijing tries to use German atonement for its wartime past to embarrass Japan.

China has increasingly contrasted Germany and its public contrition for the Nazi regime to Japan, where repeated official apologies for wartime suffering are sometimes undercut by contradictory comments by conservative politicians.

Ties between the two Asian rivals worsened when Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe visited Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine on December 26, which China sees as a symbol of Tokyo's past militarism because it honors wartime leaders along with millions of war dead.

Xi will visit Germany in late March, as well as France, the Netherlands and Belgium, Beijing-based diplomats said. China's Foreign Ministry declined to comment on Xi's agenda as the trip has yet to be formally announced.

"China wants a strong focus on World War Two when Xi visits Germany and Germany is not happy," said one diplomatic source who has been briefed on China's plans for the Xi trip.

The German government declined to comment. But the diplomatic sources said Germany did not want to get dragged into the dispute between China and Japan, and dislikes China constantly bringing up Germany's painful past.

A second diplomatic source with knowledge of the trip said China had proposed Xi visit the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin. When that was immediately rejected by Germany, Beijing suggested Xi go to Berlin's Neue Wache Memorial, which honors war dead but not recognized war criminals.

"The Holocaust is a no go area," the source said, adding it was unclear if the Neue Wache Memorial visit would go ahead.

Germany does not want the negative legacy of the war to dominate or take centre stage during a state visit, the source added, explaining the objection to the Holocaust Memorial visit.

China wanted German officials to go to Japan and tell them how to cope with history, the source added.

PROPAGANDA OFFENSIVE

It is not clear exactly what Xi wants to say about the war while in Germany, which has strong commercial links with China, but Chinese leaders have mentioned the subject in recent visits to Europe.

In 2012, then premier Wen Jiabao went to the former Auschwitz death camp, located in what was then Nazi-occupied Poland, saying: "Only those who remember history can build a good future."

Japanese leaders have repeatedly apologized for suffering caused by the country's wartime actions, including a landmark 1995 apology by then prime minister Tomiichi Murayama. But remarks by conservative politicians periodically cast doubt on Tokyo's sincerity.

Taking questions in parliament on Thursday, Abe said his government would stick by past apologies.

"As I've said before, in the past many nations, especially those in Asia, suffered great damage and pain due to our nation. Our government recognizes this, as have the governments that have gone before, and will continue this stance," Abe said.

Sino-Japanese ties are not just plagued by China's bitter memories of Japan's occupation of parts of the country before and during World War Two, but also by a territorial row and regional rivalry. Relations chilled after a feud over disputed islands in the East China Sea flared in 2012.

Some experts say China's campaign against Japan has helped Beijing shift some of the debate away from its growing military assertiveness in Asia, including double digit defense spending increases and the creation of an air defense identification zone in the East China Sea that was condemned by Tokyo and Washington.

China pressed home its propaganda offensive against Japan last week during a government-organized visit for foreign reporters to the site of the Nanjing massacre.

Reporters were taken to see the house where a German businessman called John Rabe lived, a man lionizedin China for his role in protecting Chinese from Japanese troops who rampaged through the city, then known as Nanking, in late 1937.

China says Japanese troops killed 300,000 people. A post-war Allied tribunal put the death toll at 142,000.

"Any group of people can make a historical mistake, but the Germans have admitted to it and said that they wouldn't allow such a thing to happen again," said Zhu Chengshan, curator of the memorial hall for the victims of the massacre.

"This is an amazing historical perspective that the Germans have. The Japanese, on the other hand, are exactly the opposite."

ABE DEFENDS SHRINE VISIT

Part of China's campaign has been to highlight German contrition.

State television recently showed footage of former West German chancellor Willy Brandt falling to his knees in front of a memorial to victims of the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, when the Germans brutally crushed a Jewish revolt.

Asked about China's comparison of Germany and Japan, a Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman said Japan would continue to tread a peaceful path and that it was China's recent provocative actions that were raising concerns in the region.

"We have to reflect on the past but cannot live only in the past," spokesman Masaru Sato said. "Reconciliation requires not only a former perpetrator's sincerity and gesture of atonement, but also a former victim's acceptance," he said, adding Tokyo wants dialogue with Beijing.

Numerous diplomatic sources say China has been putting pressure on Western embassies in Beijing to get their governments to condemn Abe's Yasukuni shrine visit.

Abe has repeatedly said he did not visit the shrine to honor war criminals but to pay his respects to those who died for their country and to pledge Japan would never again go to war. His visit prompted a rare statement of "disappointment" from Washington on the day he went.

Last month, following a regular meeting between the Chinese and German defense ministries, Chinese state media said the German side expressed their "understanding for China's position".

"For Germany, the lessons of history have been bitter. Germany went through deep reflection and exerted much effort, thus winning the trust of the international community," Chinese newspapers cited unnamed German officials as saying.

It is all getting a bit much for Germany.

"The Germans are really uncomfortable with this kind of thing," said a third diplomatic source, referring to the defense ministry meeting. "They don't like China constantly comparing them with Japan and going on about the war."

China's ambassador to Germany, Shi Mingde, in an interview with a German newspaper last month, drew a comparison between Abe's shrine visit and the Nazis. "Imagine that the German chancellor would visit Hitler's bunker instead of the Holocaust Memorial to lay flowers. That would be unthinkable," Shi said.

Japanese spokesman Sato, noting that Yasukuni honors 2.5 million war dead from conflicts including both world wars, said it was wrong to suggest the Yasukuni visit meant Japan was unrepentant. "Comparing the two nations by simply referring to a visit to the shrine is wrong," he said.

(Additional reporting by Natalie Thomas, John Ruwitch in NANJING, China, Linda Sieg in TOKYO and Andreas Rinke in BERLIN. Editing by Dean Yates)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 24, 2014, 09:06:57 PM
QuoteChina wanted German officials to go to Japan and tell them how to cope with history, the source added.

:lol: I just bet they did.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on February 24, 2014, 09:10:33 PM
Which is weird, since China is pretty much the spiritual successor the Nazis.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on February 24, 2014, 09:13:54 PM
For Seedy:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/02/19/china-preps-military-for-short-sharp-war-with-japan-says-us-navy/
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2014, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 24, 2014, 09:13:54 PM
For Seedy:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/02/19/china-preps-military-for-short-sharp-war-with-japan-says-us-navy/
Lol, because planning for short wars with other great powers ALWAYS works.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 24, 2014, 09:40:05 PM
Isn't this stuff uncharacteristically aggressive for the middle kingdom?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 24, 2014, 09:40:05 PM
Isn't this stuff uncharacteristically aggressive for the middle kingdom?
They managed to conquer and hold onto Vietnam for a thousand years, so I don't think so.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 24, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2014, 09:19:07 PM
Lol, because planning for short wars with other great powers ALWAYS works.

You're not seeing it from the Chinese historical perspective.  You don't need to win a war to achieve your goals.  Sometimes winning doesn't even enter into the equation.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 24, 2014, 10:17:50 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 24, 2014, 09:40:05 PM
Isn't this stuff uncharacteristically aggressive for the middle kingdom?

Don't buy into that centuries-old Confucian "we're just a pacifist culture, ROR" hype, my friend.  That's exactly what they want you to think with that public relations ad campaign.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 24, 2014, 10:21:22 PM
Beijing's problem is how to placate the population's increasing anger toward Japan without doing anything drastic.  The communists need to be seen to be doing something. 

I increasingly consider Japan's revisionist antics as giving China an advantage.  It is rare for the communists to gain the moral high ground. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 24, 2014, 10:27:07 PM
Oh, bullshit.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on February 24, 2014, 10:58:24 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2014, 10:21:22 PM
Beijing's problem is how to placate the population's increasing anger toward Japan without doing anything drastic.  The communists need to be seen to be doing something. 

I increasingly consider Japan's revisionist antics as giving China an advantage.  It is rare for the communists to gain the moral high ground.

Hah!

The population's growing anger has been carefully nurtured and encouraged by Beijing.

QuoteIn 1972, when the then Japanese Prime Minister, Kakuei Tanaka, apologised for what Japan did during the war, "Chairman Mao told him not to apologise because 'you destroyed the Kuomintang, you helped us come to power'," Prof Dujarric says.

But the Party's propaganda seems to have taken a turn towards nationalism after the Tiananmen Square massacre, in which the Chinese army crushed to death students who were demanding democratic rights, on 4 June 1989.

"Before the 4 June, it portrayed the Communist Party as victorious and glorious - it defeated the nationalist Kuomintang army in the civil war. But after 4 June, the government started emphasising China as a victim," says Prof Akio Takahara, who teaches contemporary Chinese politics at Tokyo University.

The Communist Party now casts itself as the party which ended a century of humiliation at the hands of outsiders, he says.

"And the way they do it is to breed hatred against the most recent invader and aggressor."

Switching on the television in my Chinese hotel room, it was easy to find television programmes dramatising China's resistance to the Japanese invasion. As part of the country's "patriotic education" policy, more than 200 were made last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25411700
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on February 24, 2014, 11:24:11 PM
Hey now.  Mono is just the victim of his state-run media.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on February 24, 2014, 11:25:27 PM
He's gonna be pissed when they seize his anime.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on February 24, 2014, 11:28:49 PM
I might then have to support their leaders. :weep:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 24, 2014, 11:39:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 24, 2014, 10:58:24 PM


Hah!

The population's growing anger has been carefully nurtured and encouraged by Beijing.

It is more complex than that, I think.  A lot of anti-Japan protests got out of control, and they need to put a stop to it.  If they nurtured the sentiment, they probably overdid it. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on February 24, 2014, 11:40:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2014, 11:28:49 PM
I might then have to support their leaders. :weep:
I would think that you'd be Mr. Anime, what with the hair colouring.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on February 25, 2014, 12:01:06 AM
Quote from: Neil on February 24, 2014, 11:40:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2014, 11:28:49 PM
I might then have to support their leaders. :weep:
I would think that you'd be Mr. Anime, what with the hair colouring.

Well that makes just another example of your poor cognition.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on February 25, 2014, 12:27:50 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2014, 11:39:35 PMIt is more complex than that, I think.  A lot of anti-Japan protests got out of control, and they need to put a stop to it.  If they nurtured the sentiment, they probably overdid it.

They were out of control only because different factions (i.e Zhou's clique) pushed it out of control to send a message as part of internal CPC struggles. There are plenty of reports that rioters were bussed in from the countryside and plain-clothes internal security types.

Coincidentally, Zhou was in charge of internal security which include dealing with riots and demonstrations.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 25, 2014, 01:12:50 AM
Quote from: Jacob on February 25, 2014, 12:27:50 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2014, 11:39:35 PMIt is more complex than that, I think.  A lot of anti-Japan protests got out of control, and they need to put a stop to it.  If they nurtured the sentiment, they probably overdid it.

They were out of control only because different factions (i.e Zhou's clique) pushed it out of control to send a message as part of internal CPC struggles. There are plenty of reports that rioters were bussed in from the countryside and plain-clothes internal security types.

Coincidentally, Zhou was in charge of internal security which include dealing with riots and demonstrations.

Have your heard Zhou's story?  Guy's wife was killed in a traffic accident.  The perpetrator was then jailed for 4 years (light by Chinese standards).  When he got out of jail, he was promptly given a manager's job in one of the biggest state-owned oil companies.  Zhou was chairman of the company at that time.  Within month's of his wife's death, Zhou remarried.  His son refused to speak to him for years  :ph34r:

I don't doubt that the communists have something to do with the demonstrations.  But regardless, nothing would have come out of it without Japan's...active cooperation. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on February 25, 2014, 01:57:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 25, 2014, 01:12:50 AMHave your heard Zhou's story?  Guy's wife was killed in a traffic accident.  The perpetrator was then jailed for 4 years (light by Chinese standards).  When he got out of jail, he was promptly given a manager's job in one of the biggest state-owned oil companies.  Zhou was chairman of the company at that time.  Within month's of his wife's death, Zhou remarried.  His son refused to speak to him for years  :ph34r:

Yeah, Zhou seems particularly unpleasant, even by the low standards of high level CPC leaders.

QuoteI don't doubt that the communists have something to do with the demonstrations.  But regardless, nothing would have come out of it without Japan's...active cooperation.

Yeah, Abe and his crew are playing their own little game, I have no doubt about that.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on February 25, 2014, 02:10:41 AM
Quote from: Neil on February 24, 2014, 11:24:11 PM
Hey now.  Mono is just the victim of his state-run media.

Another casualty of the BBC. :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2014, 02:23:24 AM
I bet Putin's hit men don't serve jail terms, light or no.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 25, 2014, 01:51:23 PM
Interesting question whether rule of law is stronger now in China than in Russia.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on February 25, 2014, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 25, 2014, 01:51:23 PM
Interesting question whether rule of law is stronger now in China than in Russia.

What would you say?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 25, 2014, 02:07:47 PM
Yes but very very anecdotally.
THe criminal justice system in both seems to be FUBAR.  Domestic Chinese courts are becoming more viable for civil disputes though.
In terms of trajectory, I think that Chinese is clearly making efforts to become more law-like, whereas Russia is at best stagnant.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: DGuller on February 25, 2014, 02:27:33 PM
The one thing China has going for the rule of law is the fact that it is explicitly authoritarian.  That means that its court system doesn't need to be bent nearly as much to carry out its repressive functions.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 28, 2014, 10:44:09 PM
QuoteChinese media outlet uses racial slur at US envoy
By Associated Press, Updated: Friday, February 28, 3:10 PM

BEIJING — A major Chinese government news service used a racist slur to describe the departing American ambassador in a mean-spirited editorial on Friday that drew widespread public condemnation in China.

The article — which called Gary Locke a "rotten banana," a guide dog for the blind, and a plague — reflected Chinese nationalists' acute loathing toward the first Chinese-American to have been Washington's top envoy to Beijing.

Locke's ethnic background particularly interested the Chinese government and people. Locke won public applause when he was seen carrying his own bag and flying economy class but he drew criticism from Beijing as his demeanor was an unwelcome contrast to Chinese officials' privileges and entitlements.

In Washington, top diplomat John Kerry paid tribute to Locke as "a champion of human dignity and a relentless advocate for America's values." Asked about the China News Service commentary, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters Friday: "We are not going to dignify the name-calling in that editorial with a response."

In his 2½ years in Beijing, Locke oversaw the defusing of two delicate diplomatic episodes when a powerful police chief fled to a U.S. consulate and later when a persecuted blind activist sought shelter in the embassy. The Chinese public also credit him with making them realize the harm of the tiny pollutant PM2.5 and severity of China's foul air by posting the embassy's hourly readings of air quality.

[READ: Locke urges China to improve human rights record]

Meanwhile, the editorials in Chinese state media turned from initial reservation to unfriendliness to the insolence of the final piece.

"I think it shows the unfriendliness and impoliteness by the Chinese government toward Gary Locke, and it is without the manners and dignity of a major power," legal scholar Hao Jinsong said. "It is unfitting of China's status as a diplomatic power. As a Chinese, I am very angry and feel ashamed of it."

The editorial "Farewell, Gary Locke" took direct aim at Locke's identity as a third-generation Chinese-American, calling him a "banana" — a racial term for Asians identifying with Western values despite their skin color.

"But when a banana sits out for long, its yellow peels will always rot, not only revealing its white core but also turning into the stomach-churning color of black," read the editorial.

The author Wang Ping — likely a pseudonym — slammed Locke's portrayal as an official judicious with public funds but criticized him for being hypocritical as he retreated into his multimillion-dollar official residence and special-made, bullet-proof luxury vehicle.

Wang belittled Locke's inability to speak his ancestral language and accused him of failing to understand China's law but fanning "evil winds" in the ethnically sensitive regions of Tibet and Xinjiang.

"Not only did he run around by himself, he even served as a guide dog for the blind when he took in the so-called blind rights lawyer Chen Guangcheng and led him running," the editorial said. Chen later was allowed to leave China and now lives in the United States.

The editorial made a malicious Chinese curse at Locke, suggesting Locke's Chinese ancestors would expel him from the family clan should they know his behaviors.

Wang also made the innuendo that Locke should be blamed for the smog. "When he arrived, so did Beijing's smog," Wang wrote. "With his departure, Beijing's sky suddenly turned blue."

"Let's bid goodbye to the smog, and let's bid goodbye to the plague. Farewell, Gary Locke," ended the article, which was clearly inspired by Mao Zedong's 1949 piece, "Farewell, Leighton Stuart," that scoffed at the last American ambassador under the collapsing Nationalist government in Nanjing.

The piece shocked members of the Chinese public, who denounced the editorial as distasteful and offensive.

"This article by China News Service is the most shameless I have ever seen — not one of them but the most shameless," the popular online commentator Yao Bo said. "Without him, we probably still would not have known what PM2.5 is, and how did he bring the smog? You have played the snake in the Farmer and the Viper."

Another commentator Fastop Liu, known for his sharp tongue, said the piece is ungraceful. "When you call him a plague, you become a national shame as you lack diplomatic etiquette, damage the manner of a great power, and lose the face of all Chinese," Liu wrote.

Locke gave his final news conference as ambassador on Thursday. His replacement, former Montana Sen. Max Baucus, was sworn in last week and is expected to arrive within weeks.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on March 01, 2014, 04:19:26 AM
Not all blacks are stomach-churning, IMHO.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on March 01, 2014, 08:27:10 PM
Zhou Yongkang's son and daughter-in-law have been arrested.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: LaCroix on March 01, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 28, 2014, 10:44:09 PM
Quote"rotten banana,"

:lol: that's adorable
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 01, 2014, 11:54:27 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 25, 2014, 01:51:23 PM
Interesting question whether rule of law is stronger now in China than in Russia.

The rule of law is stronger where it protects me best. In this case, that probably means my rights are best protected by the authorities I can pay off for less.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 02, 2014, 11:01:23 AM
Quote
BloombergBigbucksweek

Chinese Employers Discriminate Against Women Planning to Have Two Children
By Christina Larson February 28, 2014

Late last year, China's central government announced reforms to the controversial one-child policy—in particular, approving a resolution that would allow couples to have two children if at least one of the parents was an only child. But the change didn't go into effect instantly; implementation is controlled locally. On Tuesday, Shanghai's government approved measures to enact the so-called two-child policy, effective March 1. Shanghai is the seventh region in China to adopt guidelines for reforming, not abolishing, the country's sprawling population-control bureaucracy.

To some extent, the number of children couples can have—and when they can have them—will vary by city. Shanghai's policies are more liberal than Beijing's, where new guidelines took hold last Friday. Shanghai parents qualified to have two children can do so regardless of their own ages or the time between births. But Beijing parents with one child must wait until the mother turns 28, or the first child turns 4, before having a second child, as independent newsmagazine Caijing reported.

China's relaxed birth-control policies also bring unexpected consequences. According to state-run Global Times, some female job applicants are already facing increased hiring discrimination as potential employers appear reluctant to pay for two maternity leaves. "An interviewer asked me if I was going to have two children, and I did not know how to answer," one young woman in Zhejiang province told the newspaper. "Having children is also making a contribution to society, but they [potential employers] treat us like enemies, which is so unfair."

A hiring manager at a Hangzhou-based advertising company told Global Times that it had explicitly decided to hire fewer female copywriters. "It's a small company, and we hire many young graduates," said the HR manager. "If some of them choose to have more than one child, the risk will be too high to handle."

Job advertisements in China frequently specify desired gender, age, and height—for occupations ranging from factory workers to flight attendants to office workers—opening the door to wide-ranging forms of discrimination.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on March 04, 2014, 06:58:02 PM
QuoteA Map of China, By Stereotype
Auto-complete results by the country's largest search engine shed light on how Chinese view one another.

BY WARNER BROWN MARCH 4, 2014
   
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foreignpolicy.com%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2F860x%2Fimages%2Ffinalbaidumap.jpg&hash=3f244deef2a9e4e63829e677d3be6fed7af4c9c0)

Why is the northwestern Chinese region of Xinjiang "so chaotic?" Why are many from the southern metropolis of Shanghai "unfit to lead"? And do people from central Henan Province really steal manhole covers? These are just some of the questions -- ranging from the provocative, to the offensive, to the downright ridiculous -- that Chinese people ask about themselves and each other on Baidu, the country's top search engine, which says it processes about 5 billion queries each day.

In the West, amateur sociologists use Google's voluminous search history to finish half-written questions about different regions. They then plot the stereotypes onto maps such as this one of the United States, which The Atlantic called "The U.S. According to Autocomplete." China, with its long history of regional stereotyping, is ripe for similar treatment. After all, it is home to 22 provinces, five autonomous regions, four municipalities, as well as Taiwan, what some there would call a renegade province, pictured above because of its prevalence on Baidu. Held together by a common history and culture (and occasionally force), the regions are divided by real and perceived differences in wealth, environment, stability, ethnicity, and personality -- not to mention variations in that history and culture. Chinese society has deep schisms, one of which came into devastating relief on March 1, when a terror attack on a Kunming train station resulted in 33 deaths and 143 injuries. Chinese authorities have attributed the attacks to separatists from Xinjiang.

Studying China's collective online subconscious via auto-complete requires flexibility. Results change over time, so readers may not be able to replicate results with fealty. But even allowing for these caveats, online queries about China's regions are revealing, and they have a particularly sharp edge where they concern peripheral regions whose restive local populations sustain independence movements of varying intensity. Below is a list of common questions netizens pose about Xinjiang, a region of 22 million whose roughly 10 million ethnic Uighur Muslim minority lives alongside Han Chinese in a state of tension that frequently erupts into violence:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foreignpolicy.com%2Ffiles%2Ffp_uploaded_images%2F140304_BaiduXinjiang.001.png&hash=0bf43409020d08ba8111516d810865c4aca273de)

Others also wonder why Xinjiang's Turkic Uighur minorities look like foreigners, and why they hate the Han Chinese, who make up roughly 92 percent of China's total population but less than 50 percent in Xinjiang. Meanwhile, Tibet -- also home to simmering discontent with Chinese rule -- produces no auto-completed results at all. The same is true for its neighbor Qinghai, which sits on the Tibetan plateau and has a large ethnic Tibetan population. (Deleting the leading "why" from queries about Tibet produces many auto-completed results, mostly about travel tips and historical television dramas set in the region.)
Netizens associate several northern regions with varying degrees of violence. Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang -- collectively called the Northeast -- are famous for their Siberian winters as well as their beautiful women, but the apparently pugnacious locals are also known for starting fights. Inner Mongolia calls to mind the brutal December 2013 hazing of newly recruited firefighters, and the tiny region of Ningxia's sole result concerns the grisly murder of a family of seven following a marital spat in October 2013.   

One of the starkest patterns involves queries into the omnipresent divide between China's rich coastal provinces and poor inland ones. Netizens appear envious of wealthy Jiangsu and Zhejiang, asking why they are so developed and rich. China's wealthiest province, Guangdong, is curiously considered "chaotic" in addition to "developed," while the moderately wealthy Fujian is seen as a "poor" coastal underperformer.

One might expect Beijing and Shanghai to impress for their comparative wealth and modernity, but the general gloom of netizen queries hints at disappointed expectations. Those researching Shanghai seem particularly interested in the city's lack of public heating, a service provided throughout northern China but denied elsewhere. Meanwhile, searches for "smog" crowd the list of results for Beijing, not surprising given the city's frequent bouts with choking pollution.

Seven inland regions are associated with terms like "poor," "backward," and "undeveloped," with none coming off worse than Henan. Perhaps it's because of that province's roughly 100 million residents supposed penchant for stealing manhole covers, however inaccurate or distorted that picture may be:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foreignpolicy.com%2Ffiles%2Ffp_uploaded_images%2F140304_0_HenanBaidu.png&hash=19f7fbfd180a0bf45b786d45c03733e8aa809764)

A case can be made that the dismal repute of Henan and other poor inland regions derives from modern China's society of mass migration, which puts people of vastly unequal regions side-by-side in big cities and creates conditions for new stereotypes to form and old ones to spread. Many migrants are second-class citizens in all but name, scorned by local residents, consigned to working menial jobs, and often associated with rising crime and other social ills. The dislike can be mutual -- several queries about Shanghai ask why the "exclusive" natives look down on outsiders. One common question asks simply why Shanghai people hate Anhui people, many of whom come to seek their fortunes in the coastal metropolis.

Not all queries are so severe. Many revolve around physical appearance; netizens ask why Shandong people are so tall and why Sichuanese are short and have good skin. The top result for Hubei concerns "nine-headed birds" -- not a reference to local fauna, but an ancient mythical creature that has since become a sometimes-derogatory nickname for allegedly crafty locals. Users also ask why the people of Shanxi love vinegar, and why those in Sichuan and Hunan eat chili peppers. The adventurous, simian-craving dining habits of Guangdong attract particular attention. Most regions also feature searches related to local history: All of Shaanxi's results revolve around nicknames from its time as the cradle of Chinese civilization.

Baidu's name, which means "hundreds of times," was inspired by an 800-year-old Song Dynasty poem about the persistent search for an ideal beauty in the midst of chaos. Those Chinese using the search engine are surely looking for reliable information in a chaotic Chinese Internet. But for outsiders looking to understand how China views itself, Baidu's auto-completed questions are at least as illuminating as its answers.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/04/a_map_of_china_by_stereotype
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on March 04, 2014, 10:27:54 PM
Wait so Mono is surrounded by Monkey Eaters?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on March 05, 2014, 04:31:38 AM
:lol:
Trying that for the UK I get lots of "Sunderland is in which country" and the like. oh deer...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on March 05, 2014, 04:35:56 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 05, 2014, 04:31:38 AM
:lol:
Trying that for the UK I get lots of "Sunderland is in which country" and the like. oh deer...

Why is Barcelona important/famous/so good?  :showoff:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 05, 2014, 05:00:16 AM
Why is Atlanta busiest airport?
Why is Jacksonville called Freakville?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on March 05, 2014, 05:00:37 AM
1. why is vienna called the city of music
2. why is vienna called the city of dreams
3. why is vienna famous
4. why is vienna  the most livable city
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Savonarola on March 05, 2014, 04:47:34 PM
My current town is too small for the Google to care, but...

Why is Detroit Bankrupt?
Why is Detroit so Dangerous?
Why is Detroit Broke?
Why is Detroit called Motor City?


and my home town:

Why is Grand Rapids called Grand Rapids?
Why is Grand Rapids called Gun Ru?
Why is Grand Rapids imporant?
Why is Grand Rapids famous?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on March 05, 2014, 05:42:57 PM
why is dayton ohio so dangerous?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on March 05, 2014, 06:51:44 PM
Why is Vancouver so expensive
Why is Vancouver so warm
Why is Vancouver so boring  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 05, 2014, 07:18:16 PM
It's boring because it's filled with Canadians, duh.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on March 05, 2014, 11:14:32 PM
Why is Austin weird
Why is Austin the capital of Texas
Why is Austin so liberal
Why is Austin so great


Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on March 05, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 05, 2014, 06:51:44 PM
Why is Vancouver so expensive
Why is Vancouver so warm
Why is Vancouver so boring  :lol:

Similar for nyc but switch in cold for warm. also dirty and popular.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 08, 2014, 04:19:50 PM
QuoteAs budgets soar, China still fears its military isn't growing fast enough
By William Wan, Published: March 7
washingtonpost.com

BEIJING — When American analysts talk of China's military, they often describe it in terms of the looming threat of the future, a rapidly modernizing and expanding force that could one day rival, or even worse, overtake that of the United States.

Such anxieties were fanned further this week with China's announcement of yet another year of double-digit growth in military spending. The news prompted public alarm from Manila and Tokyo to the Pentagon.

But when China looks at its own army, it is often with fears that it is not big enough and is lacking in competence, modernization and the sheer hardened will of a well-trained force.

Chinese soldiers are wimps, bemoaned a prominent Communist Party publication, describing them as "male soldiers with female characteristics."

"Dangerously corrupt," wrote a famous Chinese colonel in a recent book, describing brothers-in-arms who had been fattened on bribes and grown complacent.

The polar extremes are a reflection of the complex, paranoid and intertwined state these days of the U.S.-China relationship as frenemies.

China's Foreign Ministry scoffed Wednesday at the alarm among the United States and its Pacific allies at China's increased military budget.

"The moderate growth . . . is totally reasonable and justifiable, and there is no need to feel surprised," said Qin Gang, the Foreign Ministry spokesman.

He added with unusually colorful language and sarcasm: "I want to reiterate that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is not a children's army equipped with red-tasseled spears. Some outside China hope to see China stay as a Boy Scout who never grows up."

His reference to child armies and red-tasseled spears drew chuckles online in China, where such images remain as relics from decades gone by.

To Westerners, what's especially notable is that China's rapid expansion has occurred right as the United States and its NATO allies have grappled with cuts.

China's budget announcement Wednesday came just one day after the Pentagon announced plans to cut the U.S. Army to its smallest size in decades.

Chinese military spending now ranks second in the world. But analysts say its official budget — $131.56 billion for 2014 — doesn't include billions spent in secret.

This year's 12.2 percent increase in China is "just what we can see," Adm. Samuel Locklear, commander of the U.S. Pacific Command, said in testimony to Congress this week. "There's much more that, I'm told, lie below that."

The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency estimated that China's real sum for last year could be as high as $240 billion, double the official number.

And IHS Jane's, a defense analysis company, projects that by 2015, China will be outspending Britain, France and Germany combined.

China's army is growing not only in an abstract sense but also in a literal sense, according to an odd but fascinating military report last month. The People's Liberation Army's official newspaper said the average Chinese soldier has grown two centimeters (about 0.8 inches) taller and five centimeters (about two inches) thicker in the waist in the past two decades.

The bigger soldiers have brought with them problems as well as praise, the military newspaper said. Tanks three decades old are now suddenly too snug, and rifle butts are too short, causing accuracy problems.

But for all the talk these days of China's bigger, beefier and expanding force, Chinese analysts clamor that the military budget remains dwarfed by that of the United States. U.S. military spending for fiscal 2014, for example, stood at $526.8 billion, four times that of China.

"China is not as strong as the West describes," said Song Xiaojun, editor of an online Chinese military magazine, who likened the nation's army to a sickly child still on the mend. "I actually don't think the current increase is enough; it should be accelerated."

Analysts here often point out that China's army troops haven't seen combat since 1979.

In a scathing piece two years ago, the Communist Party's influential Study Times newspaper said the Chinese army lacked a manly, martial spirit. It blamed China's one-child policy for raising a generation of entitled, soft little emperors unready for war.

An even bigger problem is corruption, according to Col. Liu Mingfu, a former professor at China's National Defense University. In a 2012 book, he called corruption "the No. 1 danger and No. 1 opponent for the People's Liberation Army," and compared China's current weaknesses to its corruption-riddled forces in 1894 that were soundly defeated by a modernized Japanese military.

Some U.S. experts also subscribe to this alternative narrative of China's army as a bumbling, still-nascent force. Ian Easton, a researcher at the Arlington-based Project 2049 Institute, recently catalogued a long list of embarrassing, Keystone Kops behaviors, such as missile-launch readiness drills that he said include movie and karaoke breaks.

"China's military is in many ways much weaker than it looks," Easton wrote. But what should be frightening to Western powers, he argues, is how China is looking to make up for that weakness with increasing investments in asymmetrical, nontraditional tools of war such as space weapons, ballistic and cruise missiles and cyberwarriors.

The message Chinese officials have tried to convey this week is that those who underestimate China's military as well as those who wish it wouldn't expand quite so fast are equally mistaken.

At the Foreign Ministry briefing — flogging his metaphor of child armies and red-tasseled spears — spokesman Qin said, "Even if China were a Boy Scout, he will grow taller and his feet will grow larger year by year. You cannot simply have him wearing the same small clothes and shoes, can you?"
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on March 08, 2014, 06:17:05 PM
Seriously, you guys should worry about the Russians  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 08, 2014, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 08, 2014, 06:17:05 PM
Seriously, you guys should worry about the Russians  :P

Save it, Shark Fin Soup.  We know who the real threat is, and it's not Russians with their filthy ethnicky hang-ups and it's not Suq Madiq training with Al Qaeda on monkey bars somewhere in Dirtbagistan.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Barrister on March 08, 2014, 11:54:04 PM
Why is Edmonton YEG
Why is Edmonton the capital
Why is Edmonton called Edmonton
Why is Edmonton so cold
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: PRC on March 09, 2014, 02:04:57 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 08, 2014, 11:54:04 PM
Why is Edmonton YEG
Why is Edmonton the capital
Why is Edmonton called Edmonton
Why is Edmonton so cold

Why is Calgary yyc
Why is Calgary so cold
Why is Calgary so windy
Why is Calgary located where it is
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on March 09, 2014, 02:32:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 08, 2014, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 08, 2014, 06:17:05 PM
Seriously, you guys should worry about the Russians  :P

Save it, Shark Fin Soup.  We know who the real threat is, and it's not Russians with their filthy ethnicky hang-ups and it's not Suq Madiq training with Al Qaeda on monkey bars somewhere in Dirtbagistan.


/shrug.  Feel feel to think what you want to think.  But I just think it is pretty horrible to just march into another country and claim parts of it as your own.  That to me looks suspiciously close to what another guy did in the 30s. If you don't think that's a threat, then don't say you haven't been warned  :menace:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 09, 2014, 03:17:09 AM
Those parts were their own 25 years ago though. I don't think Putin is actually looking for a fight with other great powers.

China is the greater threat in the long run. But there's not much that can be done.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on March 09, 2014, 03:30:45 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 09, 2014, 03:17:09 AM
Those parts were their own 25 years ago though.

Danzig, 1939  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 09, 2014, 03:32:56 AM
Germany had never controlled Austria prior to the Anschluss.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on March 09, 2014, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 09, 2014, 02:32:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 08, 2014, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 08, 2014, 06:17:05 PM
Seriously, you guys should worry about the Russians  :P

Save it, Shark Fin Soup.  We know who the real threat is, and it's not Russians with their filthy ethnicky hang-ups and it's not Suq Madiq training with Al Qaeda on monkey bars somewhere in Dirtbagistan.


/shrug.  Feel feel to think what you want to think.  But I just think it is pretty horrible to just march into another country and claim parts of it as your own.  That to me looks suspiciously close to what another guy did in the 30s. If you don't think that's a threat, then don't say you haven't been warned  :menace:

China did that to an entire country....
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2014, 10:30:46 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 09, 2014, 02:32:45 AM
/shrug.  Feel feel to think what you want to think.  But I just think it is pretty horrible to just march into another country and claim parts of it as your own.  That to me looks suspiciously close to what another guy did in the 30s. If you don't think that's a threat, then don't say you haven't been warned  :menace:

I'm sure the residents of Taipei feel relieved now.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2014, 04:03:31 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 09, 2014, 03:32:56 AM
Germany had never controlled Austria prior to the Anschluss.

Well if you consider Nazi Germany the Third Reich then it was.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 10, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2014, 04:03:31 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 09, 2014, 03:32:56 AM
Germany had never controlled Austria prior to the Anschluss.

Well if you consider Nazi Germany the Third Reich then it was.

Austria had controlled Germany, not the other way around ;)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on March 10, 2014, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 10, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Austria had controlled Germany, not the other way around ;)

And how was that different from the Third Reich?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2014, 08:19:30 PM
QuotePLAN commissions first Type 052D DDG, puts second on sea trials
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Navy International

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.janes.com%2Fimages%2Fassets%2F842%2F35842%2FPLAN_ship_-_main.jpg&hash=198a05c93b0253beeeb9891d36c4b7f1028d7c7c)

China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) commissioned the first of its Luyang III (Type 052D)-class guided missile destroyers (DDG) at the Jiangnan Shipyard in Shanghai on 21 March. The vessel was handed over in a ceremony presided over by PLAN commander Admiral Wu Shengli, who described the vessel as an asset that will "greatly enhance the navy's fighting capabilities".

Kunming , with pennant number 172, appears to be a development of the Luyang II (Type 052C)-class destroyer but feature several improvements in terms of design, weapons and sensors.

The 7,500-tonne warship has a range of 4,500 n miles and can attain a top speed of 30 kt. It can accommodate a crew of 280 and carry up to two Harbin Zhi-9A Haitun or Kamov Ka-28 Helix helicopters on its flight deck.

The Luyang III class incorporates an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Type 346 Dragon Eye active phased-array radar on its forward superstructure. The vessels have provisions for one bow-mounted sonar and towed array sensors each although further details on these are not yet available.

The ships are armed with six Yu-7 324 mm torpedoes that can carry a 45 kg warhead over a range of 14 km. Aircraft persecution is achieved with 64 HHQ-9B vertical launching system (VLS) cells divided between the forward and aft sections of each boat. These are designed to fire 90 kg warheads up to a distance of 100 km. The Luyang III class's firepower is augmented with one H/PJ38 130 mm main gun and one Type 730 30 mm gun on each vessel.

Shortly after the commissioning of Kunming , Chinese state media reported on 23 March that its sister ship Changsha , with pennant number 173, took to the waters of Zhoushan in eastern China to commence sea trials. Both vessels are expected to be based in the South Sea Fleet. The PLAN is expected to operate a fleet of 10 Luyang III-class DDGs.

I love how the Chinese have starting using much more menacing nicknames for their hardware, like "Dragon Eye".  Then again, it sings better than "Counterfeit Aegis Ripoff Orchid Blossom."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on March 24, 2014, 08:29:53 PM
Death Blossom

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthelostclassics.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F08%2Foherlihy-last-starfighter-sm.jpg&hash=1d2cbffc73f6233c1d9945ac78426cc918cb9d7f)

obscure?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2014, 08:37:41 PM
Great movie.  Stupid boardgame.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 24, 2014, 08:52:33 PM
Go to sleep, Louis, or I'm telling Mom about your Playboys.  :mad:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on March 24, 2014, 08:58:10 PM
 :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on March 24, 2014, 09:06:29 PM
To be fair, their Aegis radar is probably just as good as the USN version, what with the parts being made in China and them having access to the plans courtesy of their spies students.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2014, 09:15:42 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2014, 09:06:29 PM
To be fair, their Aegis radar is probably just as good as the USN version, what with the parts being made in China and them having access to the plans courtesy of their spies students.

Probably doesn't work past all the lead paint it's covered with.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on March 25, 2014, 04:17:37 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2014, 08:37:41 PM
Great movie.  Stupid boardgame.

There's a Last Starfighter boardgame?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2014, 06:02:47 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 25, 2014, 04:17:37 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2014, 08:37:41 PM
Great movie.  Stupid boardgame.

There's a Last Starfighter boardgame?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcf.geekdo-images.com%2Fimages%2Fpic109904.jpg&hash=7a2b08c5e65841a3f9065d273c70accc1a9f725d)

From FASA, the folks who brought you the Star Trek RPG.

Of course, this was 1984ish, the heyday of Make A Game Out Of Everything.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on March 25, 2014, 06:13:02 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2014, 06:02:47 AM
Of course, this was 1984ish, the heyday of Make A Game Out Of Everything.

Indeed, my copy of the Ghostbusters RPG bears witness to this.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on March 25, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.

The current owners of the FASA trademark have (and had) basically nothing to do with those three Franchises, IIRC.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fideologyofmadness.spookyouthouse.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F05%2Fstrpg1.jpg&hash=bececbe449792115350b08c7ad4b4d3c774256ac)

Still one of the awesomest rules systems ever.  And it was: canon-qualified.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on March 25, 2014, 04:29:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 25, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.

The current owners of the FASA trademark have (and had) basically nothing to do with those three Franchises, IIRC.

As I recall, they were all very much FASA products until they went belly up.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Malthus on March 25, 2014, 04:38:52 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fideologyofmadness.spookyouthouse.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F05%2Fstrpg1.jpg&hash=bececbe449792115350b08c7ad4b4d3c774256ac)

Still one of the awesomest rules systems ever.  And it was: canon-qualified.

My only question is: why does Kirk appear to have shit on his face?  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on March 25, 2014, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 25, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.
The current owners of the FASA trademark have (and had) basically nothing to do with those three Franchises, IIRC.
FASA still owns Earthdawn (the least of the three).  But yeah, they sold the other two to those goofballs at Wizkids.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on March 25, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fideologyofmadness.spookyouthouse.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F05%2Fstrpg1.jpg&hash=bececbe449792115350b08c7ad4b4d3c774256ac)

Still one of the awesomest rules systems ever.  And it was: canon-qualified.

I raise you.....

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calormen.com%2Fstar_trek%2FFAQs%2FCovers%2FFASA-StarshipTacticalCombatSimulator.jpg&hash=8904a2cbec70c532d08baaf360efcea363c7c699)

All the Star Trek geekiness without a 500 page rule book.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on March 25, 2014, 06:38:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 25, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.
The current owners of the FASA trademark have (and had) basically nothing to do with those three Franchises, IIRC.
FASA still owns Earthdawn (the least of the three).  But yeah, they sold the other two to those goofballs at Wizkids.

Kinda awkward, as Earthdawn and Shadowrun are intimately linked.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2014, 08:10:25 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 25, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
I raise you.....

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calormen.com%2Fstar_trek%2FFAQs%2FCovers%2FFASA-StarshipTacticalCombatSimulator.jpg&hash=8904a2cbec70c532d08baaf360efcea363c7c699)

All the Star Trek geekiness without a 500 page rule book.

I had the

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.waynesbooks.com%2Fimages%2Fgraphics%2Fstiiistarshipcombat.jpg&hash=240ec02700175bb3957515704469ba0ca28cd59f)

version, which I believe was the first one.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Neil on March 25, 2014, 10:48:30 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on March 25, 2014, 06:38:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 25, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.
The current owners of the FASA trademark have (and had) basically nothing to do with those three Franchises, IIRC.
FASA still owns Earthdawn (the least of the three).  But yeah, they sold the other two to those goofballs at Wizkids.
Kinda awkward, as Earthdawn and Shadowrun are intimately linked.
Kind of.  I mean it's not like you can't possibly write a Shadowrun adventure without copious amounts of Earthdawn lore.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 07, 2014, 04:55:25 PM
What in the wide wide world of sports

QuoteU.S. Tries Candor to Assure China on Cyberattacks
By DAVID E. SANGER
APRIL 6, 2014


WASHINGTON — In the months before Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel's arrival in Beijing on Monday, the Obama administration quietly held an extraordinary briefing for the Chinese military leadership on a subject officials have rarely discussed in public: the Pentagon's emerging doctrine for defending against cyberattacks against the United States — and for using its cybertechnology against adversaries, including the Chinese.

The idea was to allay Chinese concerns about plans to more than triple the number of American cyberwarriors to 6,000 by the end of 2016, a force that will include new teams the Pentagon plans to deploy to each military combatant command around the world. But the hope was to prompt the Chinese to give Washington a similar briefing about the many People's Liberation Army units that are believed to be behind the escalating attacks on American corporations and government networks.

So far, the Chinese have not reciprocated —
a point Mr. Hagel plans to make in a speech at the P.L.A.'s National Defense University on Tuesday.

The effort, senior Pentagon officials say, is to head off what Mr. Hagel and his advisers fear is the growing possibility of a fast-escalating series of cyberattacks and counterattacks between the United States and China. This is a concern especially at a time of mounting tensions over China's expanding claims of control over what it argues are exclusive territories in the East and South China Seas, and over a new air defense zone. In interviews, American officials say their latest initiatives were inspired by Cold-War-era exchanges held with the Soviets so that each side understood the "red lines" for employing nuclear weapons against each other.

"Think of this in terms of the Cuban missile crisis," one senior Pentagon official said. While the United States "suffers attacks every day," he said, "the last thing we would want to do is misinterpret an attack and escalate to a real conflict."

Mr. Hagel's concern is spurred by the fact that in the year since President Obama explicitly brought up the barrage of Chinese-origin attacks on the United States with his newly installed counterpart, President Xi Jinping, the pace of those attacks has increased. Most continue to be aimed at stealing technology and other intellectual property from Silicon Valley, military contractors and energy firms. Many are believed to be linked to cyberwarfare units of the People's Liberation Army acting on behalf of state-owned, or state-affiliated, Chinese companies.

"To the Chinese, this isn't first and foremost a military weapon, it's an economic weapon," said Laura Galante, a former Defense Intelligence Agency cyberspecialist. She now works for the Mandiant division of FireEye, one of the largest of the many cybersecurity firms seeking to neutralize attacks on corporations from China and other countries, as well as criminal groups and hackers.

Administration officials acknowledge that Mr. Hagel, on his first trip to China as defense secretary, has a very difficult case to make, far more complicated than last year. The Pentagon plans to spend $26 billion on cybertechnology over the next five years — much of it for defense of the military's networks, but billions for developing offensive weapons — and that sum does not include budgets for the intelligence community's efforts in more covert operations. It is one of the few areas, along with drones and Special Operations forces, that are getting more investment at a time of overall Pentagon cutbacks.

Moreover, disclosures about America's own focus on cyberweaponry — including American-led attacks on Iran's nuclear infrastructure and National Security Agency documents revealed in the trove taken by Edward J. Snowden, the former agency contractor — detail the degree to which the United States has engaged in what the intelligence world calls "cyberexploitation" of targets in China.

The revelation by The New York Times and the German magazine Der Spiegel that the United States has pierced the networks of Huawei, China's giant networking and telecommunications company, prompted Mr. Xi to raise the issue with Mr. Obama at a meeting in The Hague two weeks ago. The attack on Huawei, called Operation Shotgiant, was intended to determine whether the company was a front for the army, but also focused on learning how to get inside Huawei's networks to conduct surveillance or cyberattacks against countries — Iran, Cuba, Pakistan and beyond — that buy the Chinese-made equipment. Other cyberattacks revealed in the documents focused on piercing China's major telecommunications companies and wireless networks, particularly those used by the Chinese leadership and its most sensitive military units.

Mr. Obama told the Chinese president that the United States, unlike China, did not use its technological powers to steal corporate data and give it to its own companies; its spying, one of Mr. Obama's aides later told reporters, is solely for "national security priorities." But to the Chinese, for whom national and economic security are one, that argument carries little weight.

"We clearly don't occupy the moral high ground that we once thought we did," said one senior administration official.


For that reason, the disclosures changed the discussion between the top officials at the Pentagon and the State Department and their Chinese counterparts in quiet meetings intended to work out what one official called "an understanding of rules of the road, norms of behavior," for China and the United States.

The decision to conduct a briefing for the Chinese on American military doctrine for the use of cyberweapons was a controversial one, not least because the Obama administration has almost never done that for the American public, though elements of the doctrine can be pieced together from statements by senior officials and a dense "Presidential Decision Directive" on such activities signed by Mr. Obama in 2012. (The White House released declassified excerpts at the time; Mr. Snowden released the whole document.)

Mr. Hagel alluded to the doctrine a week ago when he went to the retirement ceremony for Gen. Keith B. Alexander, the first military officer to jointly command the N.S.A. and the military's Cyber Command. General Alexander was succeeded last week by Adm. Michael S. Rogers, who as the head of the Navy's Fleet Cyber Command was a central player in developing a corps of experts who could conduct cyberwarfare alongside more traditional Navy forces.

"The United States does not seek to militarize cyberspace," Mr. Hagel said at the ceremony, held at the N.S.A.'s headquarters at Fort Meade, Md. He went on to describe a doctrine of "minimal use" of cyberweaponry against other states. The statement was meant to assure other nations — not just China — that the United States would not routinely use its growing arsenal against them.

In Beijing, the defense secretary "is going to stress to the Chinese that we in the military are going to be as transparent as possible," said Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, "and we want the same openness and transparency and restraint from them."

Experts here and in China point out that a lot was left out of Mr. Hagel's statement last week. The United States separates offensive operations of the kind that disabled roughly 1,000 centrifuges in Iran's nuclear program, America's best-known (and still unacknowledged) cyberattack against another state, from the far more common computer-enabled espionage of the kind carried out against the Chinese to gather information about a potential adversary.

"It's clear that cyberspace is already militarized, because we've seen countries using cyber for military purposes for 15 years," said James Lewis, an expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "The Chinese have had offensive capabilities for years as well," he said, along with "more than a dozen countries that admit they are developing them."


QuoteBut the hope was to prompt the Chinese to give Washington a similar briefing about the many People's Liberation Army units that are believed to be behind the escalating attacks on American corporations and government networks.

So far, the Chinese have not reciprocated —

Well, no shit, Sherlock.  Jesus H chocolate-covered Christ, it's bad fucking news when I'm more dialed in on the Chinese than our fucking leadership.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on April 07, 2014, 08:08:42 PM
THANKS OBAMA
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on April 07, 2014, 08:18:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 25, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 25, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Between Shadowrun, Battletech and Earthdawn, FASA more than earned my respect.

The current owners of the FASA trademark have (and had) basically nothing to do with those three Franchises, IIRC.

I didn't even know the company was still around.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 08, 2014, 07:43:57 PM
Chinese adherence to "noninterference" is a sham! I'm shocked, shocked! :o

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Opinion/Commentary/2014/Apr-09/252721-japan-is-looking-at-the-crimea-annexation-with-trepidation.ashx#ixzz2yLSObDj5

Quote

China's response to the crisis in Ukraine was particularly revealing. For three decades, China has proclaimed "noninterference" in the internal affairs of sovereign states as the most important rule governing international relations. But when Putin invaded Ukraine, China showed the hollowness of its adherence to this principle. Instead of condemning Russia for invading and annexing Crimea, it abstained at the United Nations Security Council and has offered more criticism of Ukraine's new popular government than it has of Putin's thuggish behavior.

Every country in Asia is bound to draw only one conclusion from China's tacit approval of Putin's Crimean landgrab: China, too, thinks that might makes right, and if it believes that it can get away with invading disputed territories, whether in the South China Sea or in the Indian Himalayas, it will do so. As a result, effective deterrence will require Asian countries to strengthen their defenses and unite to demand adherence to international law, so that China understands that any Putin-style land grabs will cost its economy dearly.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2014, 07:44:09 PM
Is the bubble finally bursting?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2014/04/13/china-property-collapse-has-begun/

QuoteChina Property Collapse Has Begun

Nothing is going right for Hangzhou at this moment.  Walmart will be closing its Zhaohui store in that city on April 23 as a part of its overall plan to dump marginal locations—about 9% of the total—in China.


Thanks to the world's largest retailer, another large block of space in Hangzhou, the capital of Zhejiang province, will go on the market at a time when there is generally too much supply.  The problem is especially pronounced in the city's premium office market.  Hangzhou's Grade A office buildings at the end of 2013 had, according to Jones Lang LaSalle, an average occupancy rate of 30%.

The real weakness, however, is Hangzhou's residential sector.  The cause is simple: massive overbuilding.  Sara Hsu of the State University of New York at New Paltz writes that Hangzhou faces "burgeoning swaths of empty apartment units."

Hangzhou's market has not yet collapsed.  There are still secondary sales, for instance.  Singapore's Straits Times reports Allen Zhao, a businessman, has been looking to sell his two-bedroom flat in Hangzhou for 2 million yuan.  His neighbor just let go a similar unit for 1.7 million.  If Zhao also sells for that amount, he will make a profit, but he will be disappointed.  "That is not much more than the price I paid in 2012," Zhao told the paper.  "Now I'm regretting not selling earlier—more bad news about the property market keeps coming in every day."

New homes also face price pressure.  Developers in Hangzhou are now offering deep discounts, and investors and owners are noticing.  And not just in that city.  "It seems that the 30% price cut in Hangzhou really changed the way Chinese people think about real estate," writes Anne Stevenson-Yang of J Capital Research, "and I doubt there is any turning back from here."

Not every developer is offering such deep discounts, but as Stevenson-Yang tells us the city has become the symbol of a market in distress.  China Central Television on the first of this month devoted a segment to the problems of the "unstoppable price decrease" in Hangzhou property in its Economic 30 Minutes show, and discounts in that city, the Wall Street Journal notes, could be "a signal of broader market weakness ahead."

The real estate market in Hangzhou looks like it has just passed an inflection point.  It is not so much that fundamentals have deteriorated—they have been weak for some time—as that people's mentality has changed. 

As state-run China Central Television explained, the problems in Hangzhou, once the world's largest city, began on February 18.  Then, the North Sea Park development began offering deep discounts.  Rumors that the developer had cash problems started a chain reaction across the city.  It did not matter that North Sea Park issued denials.  Other developers began offering either deep discounts or large incentives, but the tactics did not work.  By then, there were almost no buyers.

Now, the problem of no buyers is spreading across the country.  Sara Hsu notes China's residential markets are becoming inelastic.  "Once consumers stop buying," she writes, "deep discounts are ineffective in drawing them back."  People aren't buying because they believe prices will decline further.

According to the National Bureau of Statistics, new home prices across the country are still going up, but percentage increases have now declined for three consecutive months, signaling a peaking.

Official statistics do not seem consistent with the general trend of reports, but in any event severe problems are evidently ahead.  The secondary property market has tumbled, with sales falling by more than half in Q1 2014 from the same quarter in 2013.  Speculators have either left the domestic market or have sold off holdings.  Rich Chinese, now interested in foreign holdings, are also shunning their home market.  Foreigners, who own only an infinitesimal portion of China's property but who are a bellwether nonetheless, are investing at the slowest pace in at least a decade.  Middle class Chinese are also largely out of the market.

And that's not all.  China property trust sales plunged 49.1% in Q1 2014 from the previous quarter, from 99.7 billion yuan in Q4 2013 to 50.7 billion yuan.  The precipitous fall was due in part to the failure last month of developer Zhejiang Xingrun Real Estate, which had 3.5 billion yuan of indebtedness.

Moreover, just about everyone expects more developers to close their doors.  For one thing, the central bank is not injecting liquidity as fast as it once did.  And interest rates are increasing, the reason why a Finance Ministry one-year bond auction failed on Friday.  Many private developers had gambled that property prices would rise faster than interest rates, but that now looks like a losing bet.  Zhejiang Xingrun, for one, became insolvent after it had borrowed at ultra high rates.

China is at the point where problems are feeding on themselves.  Pessimism about property, which accounts for about 15% of China's gross domestic product, is beginning to affect the broader economy.  Declining property values look scary, despite cheery statements from government officials who assure us the property bubble is "not big" or analysts who say that the problems are not "systemic."  But the Chinese don't look like they are buying either of those views.  "If this continues, it will have immense impact on the whole Chinese economy," says an unidentified Hangzhou real estate salesman on Economic 30 Minutes.  "Without question, everyone thinks there is a bubble."

The People's Republic in the "reform era" has not suffered a nationwide property crash.  Analysts say the problems in Hangzhou are "regional," but now fundamentals and market sentiment either are or will be pushing markets down across the People's Republic.

"The banking system and the shadow banking system are becoming concerned about exposure," says David Cui of Bank of America BAC +1.46%.  "Once people refuse to provide credit to developers, their balance sheets will be under pressure, forcing them to cut prices.  Once enough of them cut prices, fewer people would buy because most people buy property only when they think the price is going up.  If this persists, it will turn into a vicious loop."

Premier Li Keqiang has a few tools at his disposal, but they look insufficient to stop a general collapse of property prices across the country.  The problems, deferred from late 2008 with massive state spending, have simply become too large.  And we must remember that he works inside a complex, collective political system that is generally unable to meet challenges swiftly.

But that does not matter.  There is little any leader can do.  Collapses occur when people lose confidence.  That is now happening in China.

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 15, 2014, 01:42:27 AM
DOOM! China's economy will implode and take the rest of us down with it!

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/04/15/too-much-of-a-good-thing-a-china-property-glut-faq/
QuoteToo Much of a Good Thing: A China Property Glut FAQ

China's smaller cities are now the scene of a housing glut, which could undermine China's growth. What are the possible consequences? How are developers reacting? Is the government doing anything about it?

Below WSJ reporters Esther Fung and Bob Davis answer those and other questions. 

Why are the recent price cuts so bad? Isn't this just the market at work—less demand, ergo lower prices?

The same could have been said for the U.S. in 2007. Falling prices in Las Vegas, Bakersfield, Miami were just the market at work.  The problem is that if prices fall too far, they don't invite more people to invest in property. Just the opposite. Would-be buyers keep their wallets closed, fearing that the value of a home will go down in value.

That's particularly a problem in China, where people have thought for 20 years that real estate prices can only go up in value. If that psychology switches, it's a huge problem.

There was concern that the property bubble had burst in 2011. What's different now? 

In 2011, the big worry was  escalating prices in China's major cities putting apartments out of the reach of all but the rich. The central government implemented property curbs, such as limits on multiple home purchases, to rein in speculation and frothy prices. After two tough years for developers, prices started heading up again smartly last year.

What makes the current problem different is that a) the problem is more widespread, hitting lots of small and medium-sized cities, b) the issue is a glut rather than rising prices, and c) China's finances are tied ever more tightly to real estate.

Since 2008, debt in China has grown at a pace similar to the U.S, Europe, Japan and South Korea before they fell into deep recessions. One big reason for the run-up in debt is lending to real estate developers. If developers can't afford to make payments on their loans because they can't sell enough apartments, China has a big problem.

Speaking of which, how are developers paying their bills?

Many construction companies are getting paid in apartments as developers become more and more cash-strapped, according to Zhou Liping, a property consultant at Jiangsu Lianmeng Property Consultancy. "It's quite common," he said, adding that some of these construction companies then use the apartments as collateral when they take on bank loans.

Are there signs of construction workers losing their jobs?

Certainly it's a danger. Unfortunately, unemployment data is unreliable in China and it isn't counted by occupation. So far, there is no sign of widespread job loss. There are still  more jobs than workers seeking jobs, largely as a result of demographic changes that are reducing the size of the Chinese workforce.

What are some signs that the growing glut is having economic ripples?

Copper prices have been falling since 2010, with analysts blaming slack demand in China as one reason. Copper is used in roofs, gutters and building expansion joints. Meanwhile, ArcelorMittal, the world's largest steelmaker, has forecast slower growth in Chinese steel demand this year due to more muted construction demand growth.

Retail sales growth has also slowed recently, due in part to falling growth in sales of appliances and furniture, both linked tightly to apartment purchases.

What is the government doing about it?

The central government has indicated that it would allow local governments to adopt their own market regulations rather than implement a one-size-fits-all policy.

In some areas, local governments are trying help out. In Fenghua, government officials are trying to stave off a default by a local developer. In Changzhou, the government has been trying to keep discounts to a minimum to prop up the housing market.  In Yingkou, the government has reduced fees and taxes for new purchases and made it easy for new buyers to get the residence permits necessary to obtain social welfare benefits, including public education for their children. So far, these measures have had only a limited impact on boosting sales.

Does this mean developers will finally start to cut back on their headlong, hell-for-leather building?

Some of China's largest developers are now trying to focus again on China's biggest cities, where demand is stronger. But why do developers keep building in problem cities despite obvious lack of demand? Why did U.S. developers do the same thing? Developers are optimists and salesmen by nature. Each thinks that its project will thrive even as others don't.

According to Nomura, profits for a group of 142 listed property developers in China rose 581% between 2006 and 2012 and never fell during any of those years. Other non-financial companies saw profits rise 64% during that same period and profits sometimes fell year-to-year for that group.

"China's real estate developers are behaving like internet start-ups," says Mark Williams, a China economist at the Capital Economics in London. "They're focusing on grabbing market share in a growing market, but the smaller and medium-sized cities they are in aren't growing rapidly."

Follow Bob Davis on Tw
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on April 15, 2014, 04:01:34 AM
Well, you know.

Only so many ghost cities to go around before we have to start exporting them.  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on April 15, 2014, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2014, 07:44:09 PM
Is the bubble finally bursting?



Stumbled on this one myself today. Interesting. Hopefully the west is on steady enough footing by now that it won't take us down too,.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Norgy on April 15, 2014, 04:17:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 15, 2014, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2014, 07:44:09 PM
Is the bubble finally bursting?



Stumbled on this one myself today. Interesting. Hopefully the west is on steady enough footing by now that it won't take us down too,.

Yeah, that sounds likely. Because our own property markets haven't been a mess for six years or so.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on April 15, 2014, 04:44:00 AM
Quote from: Norgy on April 15, 2014, 04:17:54 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 15, 2014, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 14, 2014, 07:44:09 PM
Is the bubble finally bursting?



Stumbled on this one myself today. Interesting. Hopefully the west is on steady enough footing by now that it won't take us down too,.

Yeah, that sounds likely. Because our own property markets haven't been a mess for six years or so.

Things are better than six years ago at least. Had China gone down in the last few years then the world would have been pretty screwed.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2014, 05:46:49 PM
Because the movie was awesome, that's why.

http://theweek.com/article/index/260001/how-captain-america-won-over-china

QuoteHow Captain America won over China
A patriotic U.S. film is raking in the renminbi. Why?
By Warner Brown, Foreign Policy | April 17, 2014   

SHANGHAI — Last week, while U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel's trip to China was underscoring bilateral tensions between the two powers, the Chinese masses were busy embracing another U.S. visitor. The Marvel superhero sequel Captain America: The Winter Soldier— which (spoiler alert) sees World War II hero Steve Rogers adjusting to life in the 21st century after a 70-year-long sleep, all while battling nefarious elements including spies and Nazis within his employer, a government agency called S.H.I.E.L.D. — has cleaned up at the Chinese box office, selling over 5.6 million tickets and raking in $39.2 million in its opening weekend. That's less than the $95 million the film earned in its debut weekend in the United States, but it's not shabby for China, besting even the opening weekend for 2013's Iron Man 3, which went on to become China's second-highest earning film in 2013. Chinese viewers have embraced the film on Douban.com, China's leading social site for film buffs. Over 20,000 Douban users have collectively given the film an average score of 8.2, edging out even acclaimed Hong Kong director Wong Kar Wai's 2000 tour de force In The Mood for Love.

Why has an avowedly all-American hero proved so popular here? Launching the film on a three-day holiday weekend shortly after its stars toured Beijing certainly didn't hurt. But Winter Soldier also resonates because it keeps the hero's fundamental patriotism intact while modernizing his conflict for a complicated new era, pitting him against enemies burrowed deep within the government he serves. "[The new villain] is the very country he loves and protects," writes one Douban reviewer. "To love one's country isn't the same as loving one's government: This is the main draw of Captain America."

These and other Douban authors implicitly acknowledge that a film tackling such themes — even hidden behind the guise of an imagined superhero — could never be made under the watchful eye of China's image-conscious government and its army of censors. One online review, titled "Why is there no Captain China?", tackles the question explicitly. The post argues that Chinese censors would never allow scenes of iconic buildings like Tiananmen Gate or state-run China Central Television's iconic headquarters, both in Beijing, being destroyed: How could such a thing be possible, after all, under the ruling Communist Party's protection? (A superhero would be unnecessary because China's unrivalled People's Armed Police would catch the villain and send him off to re-education through labor.) The best a Captain China could hope for, the user argues, would be a job as a Beijing policeman. Not that China would ever have true villains anyway; would-be filmmakers, the user concludes, shouldn't even think about depicting enemies within the ranks of the government.

Taken together, the mass of Douban reviews also suggest that Winter Soldier continues a tradition in which Hollywood's success in China inspires navel-gazing about the country's domestic film industry and broader culture. In a review titled "Why do we need Captain America?", one user bemoans the lack of masculine heroes in current Chinese films, and laments that earlier folk heroes like kung-fu legends Huang Feihong and Ip Man are no longer suited to the silver screen. These protagonists are "too nationalist," she writes, fending off as they do a parade of foreign devils and other villains from the bad old days of China's "century of humiliation" at the hands of other powers like Japan and Britain. It's a theme for which many other members of Douban's relatively liberal user base have evinced more than a little fatigue.

It would be folly, of course, to chalk Winter Soldier's success in China up to its politically resonant plot alone. Some of the factors at play behind Captain America's successful Chinese conquest are rather simple. One review entitled "The male lead is handsome — that's the only reason" is representative of a sizable star-gazing chunk of the short reviews, while the most popular full-length review is a playful bromantic interpretation of the relationship between two male leads. The appeal of big explosions and eye-catching stars, it seems, transcends borders.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on April 19, 2014, 05:56:20 PM
What a load of Cao Cao.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on April 19, 2014, 05:59:14 PM
I saw Ip Man 2 recently and it was a shameless (and unfun) copy of Rocky IV, with an officer of the British colonial army in place of Ivan Drago.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.easternkicks.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2Ffeatures%2Fdarren-shahlavi.jpg&hash=79b8106a5c6efeb7e5d523c1da772be8085ec92c)

Most recent Chinese films I have seen are such on the nose nationalistic pamflets, that I'm not surprised people are flocking to see actual *fun* stuff like Cap or Pacific Rim (which made an absolute killing in China).
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 19, 2014, 06:34:59 PM
QuoteOne online review, titled "Why is there no Captain China?"

Probably because he failed the exams.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2014, 09:23:15 AM
Sounds like a postapocalyptic wasteland. China's Polluted Soil (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626304579507040557046288?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304626304579507040557046288.html)

QuoteChina Details Vast Extent of Soil Pollution
About a Fifth of Nation's Arable Land Is Contaminated With Heavy Metals

Updated April 17, 2014 9:08 p.m. ET

BEIJING—The extent of China's soil pollution, long guarded as a state secret, was laid out in an official report that confirmed deep-seated fears about contaminated farmland and the viability of the country's food supply.

Nearly one-fifth of the country's arable land is polluted, officials said in the report, shedding unexpected light on the scale of the problem—a legacy of China's three decades of breakneck economic growth and industrial expansion.

"The national soil situation overall does not offer cause for optimism," said the report. "In some areas, soil pollution is relatively severe. The condition of arable land is troubling, with the problem of pollution from industry and mining particularly worrisome."

While China's problems with air pollution are well-documented, environmentalists have warned about the effects of less-visible contamination of the country's land.

"Air pollution is definitely more visible and present, but soil is the last environmental media where pollutants end up," said Wu Yixiu, head of Greenpeace's East Asia toxins campaign. Heavy metal particles in the air and water seep into the land, then "get into the food and affect everybody," she added.

The report, based on a seven-year survey covering 2.4 million square miles, found that about 16% of the country's soil and 19% of its arable land was polluted to one degree or another. The vast majority of the pollution came from inorganic sources such as heavy metals, it said. China's total land area is 3.7 million square miles.

The most common inorganic pollutants found in China's soil were the heavy metals cadmium, nickel and arsenic, according to Thursday's report. Cadmium and arsenic, both known to cause chronic health problems, are byproducts of mining.

Nearly 3% of arable land in China was found to be either moderately or seriously polluted, the report said, without defining what those levels of contamination mean. Pollution was particularly severe in eastern China's Yangtze River Delta, the Pearl River Delta in the south and old industrial zones in the northeast, it said.

Pollution of farmland is of particular concern in China because of how little of it has. According to the most recent national land survey, China had 334 million acres of arable land at the end of 2012, roughly 37 million acres above the government's "red line" for the amount of farmland necessary to feed the country's population.

Already, some 8.24 million acres of arable land has become unfit for farming, China's Ministry of Land and Resources disclosed in December. Environmentalists say the majority of the remaining land is of poor or moderate quality, having been stripped of its productivity by decades of heavy fertilizer and pesticide use.

So much polluted soil means China will likely have to begin importing more food. "China will need to ease pressure on its natural resource base and import more of its food over the long-term," said Fred Gale, an economist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Economic Research Service. "Agriculture is impacted by industrial pollution but also creates a lot of pollution itself," he said, citing waste and ecological damage caused by China's growing taste for meat.

In April 2013, the discovery of unusually high quantities of cadmium in batches of rice grown in Hunan—the country's top rice-producing region, as well as a top-five producer of nonferrous metals like copper and lead—set off worries about farmland and sent prices for Hunan rice tumbling by as much as 14%.

Consuming cadmium in excess of the widely accepted standard of 0.4 milligrams per kilogram of rice over a long period can cause crippling pain the bones and liver and kidney damage. Several samples of the Hunan rice tested in 2013 showed levels of cadmium above that standard.

The cadmium disclosure came shortly after the Ministry of Environmental Protection rejected a request filed by a Beijing-based lawyer to release the results of the soil pollution survey. The ministry said at the time the data couldn't be released because it was a state secret.

Authorities have started to give more weight to the risks of environmental degradation.

In December, the Communist Party announced it would scrap its previous gross domestic product-driven performance evaluation system and replace it with one that would judge officials according to a wider variety of criteria, including environmental protection. Three years after an online campaign calling for more accurate information about air quality, most major cities in China now publish hourly data on air pollution levels. In July, the environmental ministry issued regulations requiring all Chinese provinces to establish an online platform for reporting pollution produced by major companies.

"This is a primary step for citizens' right to know about the environmental protection issue," said Dong Zhengwei, the lawyer who pushed for release of the results. He added, "this information is late for the public, but it's still better than nothing."

Chen Nengchang, a soil remediation expert with the Guangdong Institute of Environmental and Soil Sciences, said the report "clears away the image of soil pollution as a state secret and provides more information." But he added that the release is "a gesture" that did little to provide solutions.

Soil remediation—a way of purifying and revitalizing land—is a technically demanding process that can take decades. Heavy metals react differently depending on conditions, making sources of pollution difficult to pinpoint, and efforts to leech them out of the soil can require years of letting fields lay fallow.

China committed to spending 30 billion yuan ($4.8 billion) on the clean up and prevention of soil pollution in its most recent five-year plan, though experts say they expect it would likely cost much more than that.

In Beijing, residents greeted the report with a dose of skepticism and resignation.

"I'm concerned, but I can't fix it. The whole country is the same. You have to eat or you'll starve," said Xiang Ju, a 29-year-old fruit vendor. He added that he thought the problem was probably more serious than the report indicated. "There must be places that haven't been investigated or reported."

Nan Li, a 26-year-old who works in information technology, said he was surprised by the figure but that it ultimately didn't matter whether the government released. "I mean, even if you want to avoid it, there's no way you'll always be able to," he said.

—Joy Ma, Fanfan Wang and Yang Jie contributed to this article.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on May 19, 2014, 07:53:10 PM
So this is a little bizarre:
http://slide.news.sina.com.cn/s/slide_1_46203_60589.html#p=21
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinaimg.cn%2Fdy%2Fslidenews%2F1_img%2F2014_21%2F46203_420023_455304.jpg&hash=47cfd1abdb10ee87d7de8ac4559f02acedd4715a)
Apparently this is high school students in Sichuan re-enacting the crucifixion of Jesus for their athletics day :mellow: :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 19, 2014, 08:05:42 PM
At least Jesus had his ear buds on Golgotha.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Capetan Mihali on May 19, 2014, 10:28:46 PM
They all seem to be having good fun. :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 20, 2014, 01:28:37 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 20, 2014, 09:23:15 AM
Sounds like a postapocalyptic wasteland. China's Polluted Soil[/, though experts say they expect it would likely cost much more than that.

In Beijing, residents greeted the report with a dose of skepticism and resignation.

"I'm concerned, but I can't fix it. The whole country is the same. You have to eat or you'll starve," said Xiang Ju, a 29-year-old fruit vendor. He added that he thought the problem was probably more serious than the report indicated. "There must be places that haven't been investigated or reported."

Nan Li, a 26-year-old who works in information technology, said he was surprised by the figure but that it ultimately didn't matter whether the government released. "I mean, even if you want to avoid it, there's no way you'll always be able to," he said.

—Joy Ma, Fanfan Wang and Yang Jie contributed to this article. (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626304579507040557046288?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304626304579507040557046288.html)
[/quote]

I do worry about the Chinese environment.
I suppose back in te 70s the same sort of thing applied to japan and it has recovered...ish. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on May 20, 2014, 05:02:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 19, 2014, 07:53:10 PM
So this is a little bizarre:
http://slide.news.sina.com.cn/s/slide_1_46203_60589.html#p=21
Apparently this is high school students in Sichuan re-enacting the crucifixion of Jesus for their athletics day :mellow: :lol:

:lol:

Though... to be honest... it isn't that much more bizarre than the various cultural representations my peers and I engaged in during school international theme days et. al. when I was growing up.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2014, 07:36:53 AM
Yeah, you gotta love how elementary school presentations have the same production value as "It's a Small World After All";  Dutch?  Make a papier-mâché windmill.  Spanish?  Lulz, red bullfight bed sheet.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on May 20, 2014, 09:09:39 AM
Quote from: Jacob on May 20, 2014, 05:02:57 AM
:lol:

Though... to be honest... it isn't that much more bizarre than the various cultural representations my peers and I engaged in during school international theme days et. al. when I was growing up.

Why are female Caesars following him holding books?  Are those little red bibles?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 25, 2014, 09:58:55 PM
Let's color the map a lovely shade of red

http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-map-gives-greater-play-south-china-sea-080455527.html
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic5.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53aa95306bb3f7412391ee34-1200-1651%2Fchina-map-6.jpg&hash=327629f127ba14571ae02ce259a68ddd1277ecee)
QuoteNew Chinese map gives greater play to South China Sea claims

BEIJING (Reuters) - China has unveiled a new official map of the country giving greater play to its claims on the South China Sea, state media said on Wednesday, making the disputed waters and its numerous islets and reefs more clearly seem like national territory.

Previous maps published by the government already include China's claims to most of the South China Sea, but in a little box normally in a bottom corner to enable the rest of the country to fit on the map.

The new, longer map dispenses with the box, and shows continental China along with its self-declared sea boundary in the South China Sea - stretching right down to the coasts of Malaysia, Vietnam and the Philippines - on one complete map.

"The islands of the South China Sea on the traditional map of China are shown in a cut-away box, and readers cannot fully, directly know the full map of China," the ruling Communist Party's official People's Daily said on its website.

Old maps make the South China Sea's islands appear more like an appendage rather than an integral part of the country, which the new map makes "obvious with a single glance", the report added.

"This vertical map of China has important meaning for promoting citizens' better understanding of ... maintaining (our) maritime rights and territorial integrity," an unnamed official with the map's publishers told the newspaper.

China's foreign ministry said people should not read too much into the issuing of the new map.

"The goal is to serve the Chinese public. As for the intentions, I think there is no need to make too much of any association here," ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told a daily news briefing.

"China's position on the South China Sea issue is consistent and extremely clear. Our stance has not changed."

Beijing claims about 90 percent of the South China Sea, but parts of the potentially energy-rich waters are also subject to claims by the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan.

Tensions have risen sharply in the region in recent months, especially between China and both Vietnam and the Philippines.

China's positioning of an oil rig in waters claimed by both Beijing and Hanoi last month has lead to rammings at sea between ships from both countries and anti-Chinese violence in Vietnam.

(Reporting by Ben Blanchard and Sui-Lee Wee; Editing by Ron Popeski)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on June 25, 2014, 11:05:23 PM
I thought the update to this thread was to be about the sperm extractor :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on June 26, 2014, 03:41:21 AM
What's their explanation for extending the sea borders so far out from their claimed territories that they can practically wade ashore in Malaysia and the Philippines?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 26, 2014, 04:54:50 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2014, 03:41:21 AM
What's their explanation for extending the sea borders so far out from their claimed territories that they can practically wade ashore in Malaysia and the Philippines?

It's called South CHINA sea?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 26, 2014, 09:41:08 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2014, 03:41:21 AM
What's their explanation for extending the sea borders so far out from their claimed territories that they can practically wade ashore in Malaysia and the Philippines?

Chinese oceanic geography is more art than science.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on June 26, 2014, 10:02:41 AM
With the Senkakus they've got a half decent geographic argument (the Japanese arguments are better, but the Chinese aren't without validity).
In the South China sea though their entire argument is based on a bunch of Chinese guys having visited there 500 years ago.

Too many people just don't understand the way China historically viewed the world. To
the China of old the world was subservient to China by default. Thus arguments that old Chinese dynasties 'ruled' areas must be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
For some reason though you don't see anyone pointing this out internationally.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on June 26, 2014, 12:02:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2014, 03:41:21 AM
What's their explanation for extending the sea borders so far out from their claimed territories that they can practically wade ashore in Malaysia and the Philippines?

Worked for the Argies.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on June 27, 2014, 08:03:21 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/26/china-sends-dissidents-on-paid-holidays

QuoteChina sends dissidents on free holidays

Activists tell of 'being travelled' – sent on lavish trips, chaperoned by police – to keep them out of the government's way



As top Communist leaders gathered in Beijing the veteran Chinese political activist He Depu was obliged to leave town – on an all-expenses-paid holiday to the tropical island of Hainan, complete with police escorts.

It is an unusual method of muzzling dissent, but He is one of dozens of campaigners who rights groups say have been forced to take vacations – sometimes featuring luxurious hotels beside sun-drenched beaches, trips to tourist sites and lavish dinners – courtesy of the authorities.

It happens so often that dissidents have coined a phrase for it: "being travelled".

He, 57, had not been charged with any crime but officers took him 1,400 miles (2,300km) to Hainan for 10 days to ensure he was not in the capital for this year's annual meeting of China's legislature, he said.

Two policemen accompanied him, his wife and another dissident for dips in the ocean and visits to a large Buddha statue, he said.

"We had a pretty good time because a decent amount of money was spent on the trip – the local government paid for everything."

Altogether eight activists have told Agence France-Presse of being forced on holiday in recent years.

"Every time there is an important national event I'm taken on vacation," said Xu Xiangyu, who has long campaigned against officials she accuses of demolishing her house without any compensation.

In 2011 police and court staff announced they would be taking Xu, with her family, on a trip to Hainan – a place of internal exile for criminals, disgraced officials and renegade poets as early as the Tang dynasty of 618-907.

She has holiday snaps showing her posing at a seaside park, and with her chaperones around a table heaped with empty plates.

"The hotel was luxurious and we ate excellent food – they paid for everything," she said of her guides. "We would spend up to 1,000 yuan ($160) on a single meal."

Over the last decade domestic security spending has soared, regularly exceeding Beijing's declared military outlays, as China's ruling Communist party seeks to maintain its tight grip on power. Those who speak out against government abuses are routinely detained.

The regime has built a vast "stability maintenance" apparatus and President Xi Jinping has sought to further stifle dissent since his 2012 ascension to the top of the ruling party.

State-enforced travel spiked this year ahead of the 25th anniversary on 4 June of the Tiananmen Square crackdown. According to US-based advocacy group Human Rights in China 15 people were taken on forced vacations beforehand.

"I've just returned from Beijing after being travelled," Yan Zhengxue, a painter and government critic, told AFP.

Police "went with me every day and paid for everything" on a trip to Ningxia in the north-west that took in the towering dunes of the Tengger desert.

"If you refuse to go travelling there will be consequences," he said. "You have to go. Even though you are at tourist sites, you have been forced to go, so you're not in the mood to enjoy it."

Government personnel relish the trips, some regular forced travellers suggest. "We ate the best food and drank the best alcohol. The security officials enjoyed it too. Not just any security official can go on this kind of trip, they need to be above a certain rank," said the environmental campaigner Wu Lihong, adding he was taken to the ancient city of Xian for two weeks in March.

"Quite a few" officials from Beijing's secretive ministry of state security accompanied him, he said.

They stayed at Xian's "best hotel", he said, and saw the Unesco-listed Terracotta Warriors, as well as the "Wild Goose Pagoda", a Tang dynasty tower that hosts night-time laser shows.

"They are usually stuck inside using their computers and reading the papers, but by accompanying me they have a chance to travel and eat well," he added.

When Chinese citizens travel to Beijing seeking redress from higher authorities for local government abuses they risk detention in makeshift "black jails", where they are sometimes beaten before being sent home. More persistent ones, though, are targeted for holidays.

"If you're really grassroots you'll be held in a black jail. Forced travel is for fairly well-known activists," said Maya Wang, of US-based campaign group Human Rights Watch.

"It's a form of illegal detention," she added. "This kind of forced travel depriving people of their freedom is unlawful."

China's foreign ministry often says that detained activists are treated according to the law. The public security ministry did not respond to a request for comment.

Wang Rongwen, a longtime petitioner from Sichuan in the southwest, had her third trip ahead of the Tiananmen anniversary, with six officials taking her to the majestic peaks and gurgling waterfalls of the Tiantai mountains.

During the Communist party's 2012 congress she was brought to a hotel that boasts a chandeliered restaurant, marble-floored lobby and king-sized beds.

But she did not enjoy the experience, she said. "Being travelled is no better than being in a moving jail.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on June 27, 2014, 08:39:34 AM
Where's my luxury vacation, Obama? :angry:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on June 27, 2014, 09:39:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 27, 2014, 08:39:34 AM
Where's my luxury vacation, Obama? :angry:

You get to visit the Florida Panhandle. The sweaty redneck panhandle.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on June 27, 2014, 09:41:40 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 27, 2014, 09:39:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 27, 2014, 08:39:34 AM
Where's my luxury vacation, Obama? :angry:

You get to visit the Florida Panhandle. The sweaty redneck panhandle.

You could have stopped at just that. After ally, I said luxury vacation. :yuk:

That said - closeted Repubs? Let's go! :w00t:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 27, 2014, 09:46:46 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 27, 2014, 09:39:47 AM
You get to visit the Florida Panhandle. The sweaty redneck panhandle.

Like the eastern part of the state is any better.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on June 27, 2014, 10:49:14 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 27, 2014, 09:39:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 27, 2014, 08:39:34 AM
Where's my luxury vacation, Obama? :angry:

You get to visit the Florida Panhandle. The sweaty redneck panhandle.

That's where one of my sisters lives. :)

She's proudly identifying with redneckicity. :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on June 27, 2014, 08:37:05 PM
Maybe they'll respond by naming the street outside our embassy after Snowden? :hmm:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/26/washington-is-renaming-the-street-outside-chinas-embassy-after-jailed-dissident-liu-xiaobo-and-china-is-furious/

QuoteWashington is renaming the street outside China's embassy after jailed dissident Liu Xiaobo — and China is furious

SHANGHAI — China has reacted with fury to plans to rename the street outside its Washington embassy in honour of its most famous political dissident.

Earlier this week, a U.S. congressional committee voted to change the Chinese embassy's address to "Liu Xiaobo Plaza" — a tribute to the literary critic and dissident who has been in prison since 2009 for organizing a "subversive" pro-democracy petition called Charter 08.

The name change was "a way to highlight Liu's unjust imprisonment," said a statement posted on the website of Frank Wolf, the Republican congressman behind the initiative.

The move enraged China. "We believe that the U.S. people will not like to see a U.S. street be named after a criminal," a spokesman for the Chinese embassy was quoted as saying by the Washington Post.

Friends, relations and supporters of Mr. Liu celebrated the initiative, which was timed to coincide with this month's 25th anniversary of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, in which he played a central role. Xia Yeliang, a Chinese academic, said Liu Xia, the dissident's wife who herself has been under house arrest since 2010, had shown enthusiasm after he told her of the vote by telephone.

"She immediately laughed, a very loud laugh, a joyful laugh," Prof. Xia said.

He added that he had asked her to pass the message on to Liu Xiabo, but that the telephone line had gone dead. Liu Xiaobo was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in absentia in 2010, and Prof Xia said he saw it as a tribute to all of those who protested and lost their lives in 1989.

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on June 27, 2014, 10:19:10 PM
Hurray for international trolling.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on June 28, 2014, 02:27:54 AM
QuoteLiu Xiaobo was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize

So he hasn't actually done anything good yet? Thanks Obama.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 23, 2014, 12:50:39 AM
 :hmm:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d72ec42a-2f87-11e4-83e4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3BoXMoz00

Quote'Brushing' casts doubt on Alibaba figures as $20bn IPO looms


After four years managing a private delivery company in the Chinese city of Ningbo, Chen Qian has acquired a new skill: he can tell which packets are fake even before he picks them up. Some are hollow boxes, some rattle with a piece of candy or a keychain. Recently, he says, merchants sending fake deliveries have started putting toilet paper rolls to give some heft.

Mr Chen says these account for about a quarter of the 4,000 packages his company handles every day. The phenomenon is widespread throughout China; a consequence of the country's booming e-commerce industry and, specifically, a practice known as shuaxiaoliang, or literally – "sales brushing". Online sellers are recruiting their friends, relatives and even professional fraudsters to make fake orders because shipping more goods would give them better placement – and therefore a better chance to garner more real sales – on websites such as Alibaba-owned Taobao.

In some category of goods, fake sales can account for between a 10th to a quarter of all online sales, according to a series of interviews with ecommerce vendors, logistics companies, and people who help fake internet traffic for e-commerce sellers.

This high proportion calls into question the key operational metrics published by Alibaba ahead of its expected New York listing this month, when it is likely to raise around $20bn and eclipse Facebook and Google to become the biggest ever internet IPO.

Since Alibaba's Tmall and Taobao sites account for 80 per cent of the overall online retail volume in China, "brushing" also calls into doubt China's official e-commerce statistics.

Alibaba said in a filing to the Securities and Exchanges Commission this week that it handled $296bn worth of goods, consisting of 14.5bn orders, in the year ended June 30. Ebay handled $81bn worth of goods over the same period.

Alibaba noted in the risk factors section of its prospectus that sellers on its site may "engage in fictitious or phantom transactions with themselves or collaborators in order to artificially inflate their own ratings on our marketplaces, reputation and search results rankings".
The company declined to comment further due to a pre-IPO silent period, but Alibaba has been cracking down on brushing for the last three years. This has had some effect, according to sellers and others active on Taoboao, although the practice still flourishes as sellers stay ahead of Alibaba's audit methodology.

Brushing highlights the headaches of policing third parties on e-commerce sites and applies not just to Alibaba but to all sites that have open supplier platforms, such as Ebay and Amazon. However, Alibaba is most affected due to its sheer size in the Chinese market, and because fierce competition and rising advertising rates charged by Alibaba mean that the vast majority of sellers on Taobao are now lossmaking. Ebay and Amazon declined to comment.

Zhang Yi, chief executive of iMedia Research, a mobile internet consulting group, said a private study by his group reckons that a very large number of shop owners on Alibaba's flagship ecommerce site Taobao, which accounts for two-thirds of Alibaba's total sales volume, "brushed" in the first half of 2014. "The great majority are brushing or have 'brushed' at some point" he said.

"We've only started brushing recently," said one Taobao shop owner in Hangzhou which sells hats and traditional silk scarves, who asked not to be identified. "There is no other choice for us. A lot of the other shops have been doing this for years, and we realised that no matter how well we did in sales, we could not compete with those who brushed. The way I see it, it would be best for all of us if nobody brushed."
BRUSHING: HOW IT WORKS

Brushing has generated a whole series of side industries in China, including businesses that thrive by artificially boosting online traffic to Taobao and Tmall shops.

"But the competition is so fierce, there is really no other way, all our competitors are doing it. If your sales aren't high enough, you will get low placement and no sales"

There is some disagreement over the extent to which brushing affects Alibaba's overall sales numbers. One person familiar with the company said Alibaba was aware of the problem but did not consider it material enough to impact overall sales.

However Anne Stevenson-Yang, head of J Capital Research, the Beijing based economic research group, drew attention to the 63 per cent jump in Alibaba's gross merchandise value between the end of 2012 and end 2013, from $157bn to $248bn.

In that same period, she says, there was only a 6 per cent revenue growth for all retailers listed on the Shanghai, Shenzhen, and Hong Kong stock exchanges, not corrected for mergers and non-core investments.

"You can't say this is channel migration, because a lot of the consumer/retail companies have very robust online sales, and those sales are growing more slowly than offline sales" she says. "Manufacturers of products sold online are seeing slow or negative growth. So where are all these online sales coming from?"

Over the past three years, Alibaba has improved its auditing procedures, which use algorithms to determine suspicious activity. Merchants caught brushing could be downgraded or even kicked off the website.

Mr Chen, of the delivery company, told the FT via telephone that the number of empty packages he handles has been reduced from half to one-quarter of the total in that time. However, the practice still flourishes as sellers stay ahead of Alibaba's audit methodology. In chat rooms and blog forums, vendors discuss how not to get caught: do not have too high a conversion ratio of sales to internet traffic clicks, and do not "brush" from the same IP address too often.

Li Siyuan, who sells cut flowers online on Taobao from his Beijing flat, said he personally does not brush sales, however he knows many merchants who do, but the practice is declining. "The golden age of brushing was 2009 to 2011" he said. Nowadays he estimates that the total amount of fake sales in the online flower industry is 10 per cent or less. "Today the best way to get high sales is to offer a great product," he adds.

But Mr Chen, of the delivery company, says it will be difficult to completely eradicate the practice. "Even though our employees can pretty much tell which ones are empty, the line is still rather blurry," he says. "Our clients can insist that they just intend to send a pack tissue paper; or even harder still, if they send out a receipt in an envelope."

It appears that brushing violates no laws and, arguably, benefits everyone – store owners get better listings, logistics and delivery companies get more sales, and Alibaba gets a boost in traffic.

"I don't think I want to criticise the practice too much because we get so many sales," says Mr Chen.

Brushing: how it works

'Brushing' essentially consists of creating fake orders – the merchant sends out an empty box or delivery envelope accordingly, but refunds the money paid by the 'purchaser'.

The practice of shipping an empty box or entering a fake order code is necessary because Alibaba requires a unique delivery code to be entered with each order.

In practice, Chen Xujie, a man from Wenzhou who fakes internet traffic for ecommerce sellers on his website 668shua.com, says half of the fakery is done by shipping empty parcels, and half is done via a grey market in active order codes sold by logistics companies to vendors via specialised websites.

Brushing has generated a whole series of side industries in China. Mr Chen, for example, runs a thriving business in artificially boosting online traffic to Taobao and Tmall shops. Shop owners who brush but do not also fake their traffic numbers can get caught because they would appear to be too successful, which casts suspicion and can cause them to be automatically downgraded by Taobao.

Some sellers also use virtual private networks on computers to fake different IP addresses for order locations, he said.
Going by the online chat handle of "Stupid Jerk", Mr Chen uses internet bots and software to fake traffic. "Nine out of every 10 sites on Taobao do it" he said via instant messenger.

He claims to make Rmb3,000 per month generating fake traffic for Taobao sellers, and says he got into the practice after owning a shop on Taobao selling Korean cosmetics. He left Taobao because he said "there was no hope".

"I spent too much time brushing my sales and it still wasn't enough".
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on September 23, 2014, 04:39:51 PM
Anyone got any book recommendations on the current leadership generation of the CCP? Or roughly post-Deng CCP leadership?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2014, 07:53:25 PM
An article for the CdM demographic

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-chinese-military-is-a-paper-dragon-8a12e8ef7edc
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on October 13, 2014, 08:16:44 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/us-eyes-sale-nys-waldorf-hotel-chinese-firm-163911969--politics.html

Where a lot of U.N. diplomats stay.  What could go wrong.  :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:03:02 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 13, 2014, 08:16:44 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/us-eyes-sale-nys-waldorf-hotel-chinese-firm-163911969--politics.html

Where a lot of U.N. diplomats stay.  What could go wrong.  :)

Presumably those diplomats can stay in other hotels?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 13, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:03:02 PM
Presumably those diplomats can stay in other hotels?

Would you?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 13, 2014, 09:20:49 PM
Biscuit said the rooms in the Waldorf aren't that great.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2014, 09:37:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 13, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:03:02 PM
Presumably those diplomats can stay in other hotels?

Would you?

Only if they have 5 stars. #Monoisrich
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:47:31 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 13, 2014, 09:37:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 13, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:03:02 PM
Presumably those diplomats can stay in other hotels?

Would you?

Only if they have 5 stars. #Monoisrich

My experience is that stars mean nothing.  5 stars just mean they have (probably) fulfilled a checklist of requirements, like having a pool, each room has its own toilet, etc.  Doesn't say if the room is nice or big or modern.  Doesn't say if the food or staff are good.  A lot of 5 star places are crappy, and a lot places with fewer stars are much better. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2014, 09:50:32 PM
My experience with cheap roadside motels is that each room always has its own bathroom.  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:54:31 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 13, 2014, 09:50:32 PM
My experience with cheap roadside motels is that each room always has its own bathroom.  :P

North American hotels are usually ok on this.  European ones are not.  Independently operated B&Bs are not.   
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 13, 2014, 10:00:18 PM
WTF Europe?  :(
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:06:10 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 13, 2014, 10:00:18 PM
WTF Europe?  :(

Yeah a lot of rooms in Europe don't have their own toilets.  Some of the ones that have them are added as an afterthought, so they tend to be small and smelly (ventilation isn't good enough as the toilet is just too small). 

Japanese hotel rooms tend to be equipped with their own toilets, but they are prefabricated ones.  The entire toilet is a plastic box made in a factory, then installed in the hotels.  I am ok with those, but the wife isn't.  The only real drawbacks are that they are small and slippery (because everything has plastic surfaces). 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 13, 2014, 10:56:30 PM
The next time your wife is sliding around on a Japanese prefab bathroom floor, videotape it and post it here.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 13, 2014, 11:12:49 PM
Or if she takes a dump in the bidet.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Barrister on October 13, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Pass on both requests.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on October 14, 2014, 12:19:56 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:06:10 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 13, 2014, 10:00:18 PM
WTF Europe?  :(

Yeah a lot of rooms in Europe don't have their own toilets.  Some of the ones that have them are added as an afterthought, so they tend to be small and smelly (ventilation isn't good enough as the toilet is just too small). 

What kind of 1 star hellholes are you staying at? :huh:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Razgovory on October 14, 2014, 01:29:05 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 13, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Pass on both requests.

Wow.  I didn't think you would really pass those requests on to your wife.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on October 14, 2014, 12:22:16 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:47:31 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 13, 2014, 09:37:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 13, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:03:02 PM
Presumably those diplomats can stay in other hotels?

Would you?

Only if they have 5 stars. #Monoisrich

My experience is that stars mean nothing.  5 stars just mean they have (probably) fulfilled a checklist of requirements, like having a pool, each room has its own toilet, etc.  Doesn't say if the room is nice or big or modern.  Doesn't say if the food or staff are good.  A lot of 5 star places are crappy, and a lot places with fewer stars are much better. 

Yeah, the stars rules are pretty misleading. Pretty much just a ticklist of does the hotel have conference facilities, rooms have minibars, etc...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on October 16, 2014, 07:23:32 PM
Meanwhile, outside of HK....

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-land-dispute-china-20141015-story.html

Quote8 killed, 18 injured in China land dispute
By TIMES STAFF
OCTOBER 15, 2014, 4:08 AM | REPORTING FROM BEIJING

During World War II, Gao Shangpei fought Japanese soldiers invading his hometown.
This week, the 85-year-old said he found himself taking up arms again as men wielding
steel pipes and knives invaded his village over a land dispute, sparking clashes that left
eight people dead and 18 others injured.
The incident in southwest Yunnan province appears to be one of the bloodiest confrontations in
recent years between property developers and local villagers.
------------
FOR THE RECORD
9:57 a.m.: An earlier version of this post indicated that the confrontation occurred on Monday. It
occurred on Tuesday. It also stated that the local government issued a statement on the incident on
Tuesday. The statement was issued on Wednesday.
------------
In a statement Wednesday, the local government said eight people were killed in Fuyou village
when staff from a local project developer clashed with villagers. But locals said "thugs" hired by the
developer stormed the village and tried to beat up residents who had vowed to protect their land
till death.

"Around 2:30 p.m. [Tuesday], a group of over 1,000 thugs hired by the developer came to our
village carrying steel pipes and long knives," Gao said in a phone interview. "When we tried to stop
them, they started to beat local villagers, including women and old people, indiscriminately."
According to Gao, more than 2,000 of his fellow residents joined in the fray. After two villagers
were killed, locals got so angry that they captured and killed some of the attackers, he said.
Pictures circulated on Chinese social media site Weibo showed burned bodies of several men in
blue uniforms whose hands and legs were bound. The photos showed some were carrying shields
with the word "police" on them, and a portable tear gas launcher was visible in one picture. The
authenticity of the pictures could not be independently verified and local police only arrived at the
scene after the deadly clash took place.

The Chinese publication Caixin identified the two deceased villagers as Shu Huanzhang and Zhang
Shun but gave no further details. The local government's statement said six people from the
developer's side were killed and a total of 18 people were injured from both sides.
The land in question was designated for the construction of a new logistics center, part of the
government's plan to relocate wholesale markets to the area from the provincial capital, Kunming,
20 miles away.

Many locals opposed the construction plan as soon as the government announced it in 2012. A
total of 12 villages have been affected by the construction plan, according to a petitioning letter
supposedly written by representatives of those villages on popular Chinese forum KDnet.net. The
letter accuses local officials of confiscating their land illegally and taking bribes from the project's
developers.

After trying to petition and failing to get the local government to address their grievances, locals
decided to take matters in their own hands and established teams to patrol the village.
"I went to Beijing three times in 2012 and tried to hand in our material to different government
departments. But we didn't hear back from anyone afterward," Gao said.

When the armed men surrounded his village, Gao said, he didn't bother to call the local police.
"They breathe through the same nose with the developers. They're useless," he said. "The local
party secretary, Chen Haiyan, is not a good person. The local hospital even refused to treat injured
villagers yesterday; we had to send them to Kunming for treatment."
Beijing-based lawyer Li Xiongbing has represented a number of clients in land-confiscation
disputes with local governments. In most cases, he said, there was not much he could do to help
the villagers.

"Under the current system in China, sometimes it's inevitable for the villagers to come down to
using their body and life to defend their home," Li said in an interview. "The local judicial system,
including the court and the police, are all controlled by the local government. It's impossible for the
villagers to seek justice through a local court."

In China's legal system, cases can only be appealed once to a higher court, which means most such
land cases go no further than a city-level court. If cases could advance as far as the Supreme Court
in Beijing, Li believes, they could be adjudicated more strictly in accordance with Chinese law.
As with many other similar land-confiscation disputes, the violent turn in Fuyou village has
catalyzed intervention by higher-level government authorities. After Tuesday's deadly clash, the
local government in Kunming said provincial officials had been dispatched to the scene.

"Why only through violent clashes and people getting killed can those problems get resolved?"
wrote Beijing-based property market columnist Ma Yuecheng in a post on Weibo.

Tommy Yang in the Times' Beijing bureau contributed to this report.

And another report on the same incident with seemingly different details (e.g. dead "construction workers" instead of "armed thugs"). :hmm:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/report-chinese-villagers-burned-workers-death-26233275
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 16, 2014, 08:52:22 PM
Common occurance.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on October 16, 2014, 08:58:46 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 16, 2014, 08:52:22 PM
Common occurance.

What a country!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on October 16, 2014, 09:00:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 16, 2014, 08:58:46 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 16, 2014, 08:52:22 PM
Common occurance.

What a country!

A very different world.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 09:00:55 PM
Yeah, from what I understand those kinds of "mass incidents" number in the thousands every year.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on October 16, 2014, 09:04:47 PM
A profound object lesson in the need for property rights.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 16, 2014, 09:05:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 16, 2014, 08:58:46 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 16, 2014, 08:52:22 PM
Common occurance.

What a country!

The problem is there is no official land ownership in China.  It is still a communist country.  So all land belongs to "the people".  So it is just a matter of "changing land use" if it is decided that a certain plot of land should be developed into luxury houses, instead of being farmed  ;)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on October 17, 2014, 01:03:26 PM
I think I read this year's breaking records for labour disputes too.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on October 17, 2014, 01:05:48 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 17, 2014, 01:03:26 PM
I think I read this year's breaking records for labour disputes too.

Yeah, the economic engine is slowing down a bit. There's bound to be an increase in tension.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on October 22, 2014, 11:15:36 AM
In important Chinese news:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/lovesick-chinese-woman--26--dumped-by-boyfriend-spends-entire-week-in-kfc-131549197.html

QuoteLovesick Chinese woman, 26, dumped by boyfriend spends entire week in KFC

Depressed Tan Shen, 26, from Chengdu, in China's southwest Sichuan Province, decided she needed some fried comfort food to get over her ex.

A lovesick Chinese woman dumped by her boyfriend spent an entire week in a KFC eating chicken wings.

Depressed Tan Shen, 26, from Chengdu, in China's southwest Sichuan Province, decided she needed some fried comfort food to get over her ex.

She stopped off at a KFC near a train station by her home, but ended up staying for a whole week because she 'needed time to think'.

Tan even phoned in sick to work to stay at the KFC, with her break-up clearly hitting her very hard.

She said: 'I was walking around feeling miserable and decided to stop off at the KFC at the train station.

'I hadn't planned on staying there long, I just wanted some chicken wings.

'But once I got in there and started eating I decided I needed time to think.

'I didn't want to go back to my apartment because it was full of memories of him. So I stayed.'

After a few days employees at the chicken shop began to get concerned.

Worker Jiang Li Lung, 22, said: 'We work in shifts here and the restaurant is open 24 hours a day, so we get a lot of people coming through.

'At first no one really noticed her.

'But after a few days I began thinking she looked really familiar.

'Then I realised we had been serving her for the past three days and that she hadn't actually left.

'When we asked her if she was ok, she said she was and just needed time to think.

'And then asked for another box of chicken wings with extra large fries.'

He said the woman wasn't doing anyone any harm so they let her stay.

He added: 'She was after all a paying customer, even if a bit of an odd one.'

After a week Shen decided she'd had enough when local media turned up and decided to write about her.

'I decided the best thing to do would be to leave the city and go back to my parents.

'I had already told work I was off sick, so phoned them and said I was leaving.

'And I was getting sick of the taste of chicken so there was no point in staying there anymore.'

She then boarded the next train to her parents' home in Quingdao city in east China's Shandong Province and left.

Waitress Jiang Li Lung said: 'I guess we kind of miss her. It certainly made work more interesting.'

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Fos%2Fpublish-images%2Fnews%2F2014-10-21%2Ff1e8a2c0-5923-11e4-84b0-91b6cf0e117a_CEN_KFCGirl_04.jpg&hash=0b32e449dae13dab22630524f2e045d83ff7b69f)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on October 22, 2014, 01:15:37 PM
That's not the ending I heard

QuoteWhen the news got out on Weibo (the Chinese equivalent of Twitter), that there was a single woman in the KFC, the place was inundated by hordes of CV and payslip waving single men.

One of the men, Liu Peng said "Its rare that we get this opportunity to meet a single woman. She is a little past proper marriageable age but I'm 31 now and have been single since I was in middle school, so I can't really be picky"

Another eager suitor, who chose to remain anonymous said "According to my favourite TV show, 'Friends', the week after a girl has been dumped is the easiest time to get her to marry you. It seems I was not the only one to realise this however"

As a result of the influx of men and the gifts they gave her, Tan Shen is now said to have upgraded to her city's branch of Burger King."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on October 22, 2014, 04:08:35 PM
A friend of mine who's originally Chinese just came back from three weeks in China (and Vietnam) with her man. She was saying that though Google was entirely shut down, weirdly, the BBC app was still updating about Hong Kong.

Apparently lots of people knew something was happening, because they're used to getting round the Great Firewall. But even her well-off, well connected relatives were asking her and her boyfriend about it because they were more up to date and generally English language sources were more trusted than Chinese.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on October 28, 2014, 09:18:14 PM
We're losing our edge in the West.  :(

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/woman-goes-sex-tour-plans-sleep-men-every-city-visits-photos/815685/
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on October 28, 2014, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 28, 2014, 09:18:14 PM
We're losing our edge in the West.  :(

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/woman-goes-sex-tour-plans-sleep-men-every-city-visits-photos/815685/

Well good luck to her. Exchanging sex for a place to stay sounds a tad dangerous.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2014, 09:54:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2014, 09:51:21 PM
Exchanging sex for a place to stay sounds a tad dangerous.

Marriage has worked for centuries.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on October 28, 2014, 09:56:35 PM
This feels more like a self-advertisement for marriage rather than a real travel plan.  "Hey look I am pretty and I am willing to date whoever is rich enough."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on October 28, 2014, 09:57:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2014, 09:54:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2014, 09:51:21 PM
Exchanging sex for a place to stay sounds a tad dangerous.

Marriage has worked for centuries.

Well 1) I'd say that has proven a pretty fraught institution for women andt 2) I don't think marriage to one person can be so easily compared to X number of men in X number of cities - particularly when you explicitly state that it is an even exchange. Unfortunately there might be some man who thinks he should get "his fair share."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2014, 09:58:05 PM
I didn't say it was a good idea.  Or her trip, for that matter.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: MadImmortalMan on October 28, 2014, 11:34:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2014, 09:57:11 PM
Well 1) I'd say that has proven a pretty fraught institution for women

How so?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on October 28, 2014, 11:52:52 PM
If it is so fraught for women why do you support Lesbians being able to marry? :hmm:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: alfred russel on October 28, 2014, 11:58:16 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 28, 2014, 11:34:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2014, 09:57:11 PM
Well 1) I'd say that has proven a pretty fraught institution for women

How so?

Historically, women have had three paths:

-marriage
-single motherhood
-celibacy

:hmm:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Query for the China watchers. What does the Chinese dream mean when Xi and the rest use it?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 13, 2014, 06:23:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Query for the China watchers. What does the Chinese dream mean when Xi and the rest use it?

It's the chosen slogan for this era of his rule, an attempt to encapsulate the values and aspirations of the Party and the people. I'm not super familiar with the nuance here or anything, but the dream is IIRC prosperity for the people, working hard together, socialist values and glory for the nation or something like that.

It's "the American Dream with Chinese characteristics", more or less. "Work hard for a better life, improve social institutions, and make China great."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on November 13, 2014, 06:24:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Query for the China watchers. What does the Chinese dream mean when Xi and the rest use it?

To be rich. Highest GDP in the world. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 13, 2014, 06:24:35 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on November 13, 2014, 06:24:07 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Query for the China watchers. What does the Chinese dream mean when Xi and the rest use it?

To be rich. Highest GDP in the world.

That's the Chinese dream when you use it  :lol:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:32:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 13, 2014, 06:23:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Query for the China watchers. What does the Chinese dream mean when Xi and the rest use it?

It's the chosen slogan for this era of his rule, an attempt to encapsulate the values and aspirations of the Party and the people. I'm not super familiar with the nuance here or anything, but the dream is IIRC prosperity for the people, working hard together, socialist values and glory for the nation or something like that.

It's "the American Dream with Chinese characteristics", more or less. "Work hard for a better life, improve social institutions, and make China great."
Ok. So it's just his 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' or 'harmonious society'.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on November 13, 2014, 06:33:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:32:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on November 13, 2014, 06:23:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 13, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Query for the China watchers. What does the Chinese dream mean when Xi and the rest use it?

It's the chosen slogan for this era of his rule, an attempt to encapsulate the values and aspirations of the Party and the people. I'm not super familiar with the nuance here or anything, but the dream is IIRC prosperity for the people, working hard together, socialist values and glory for the nation or something like that.

It's "the American Dream with Chinese characteristics", more or less. "Work hard for a better life, improve social institutions, and make China great."
Ok. So it's just his 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' or 'harmonious society'.

That's my take, yeah.

EDIT: in fact, looking at the wikipedia article (sorry grumbler), near the end it straight up says: According to official party sources, the Chinese Dream is the "essence of Socialism with Chinese characteristics".
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 13, 2014, 06:34:14 PM
I think it has to do with improving standards of living and shifting from investment to consumption.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 06, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Zhou Yongkang's arrest is all over the international news. The interesting bit is the thing about the charges for "divulging secrets to foreign interests" - possibly Wen Jiabao's financial details showing up in the New York Times - which apparently exposes Zhou to a potential death penalty.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 06, 2014, 03:27:37 AM
Quote from: Jacob on December 06, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Zhou Yongkang's arrest is all over the international news. The interesting bit is the thing about the charges for "divulging secrets to foreign interests" - possibly Wen Jiabao's financial details showing up in the New York Times - which apparently exposes Zhou to a potential death penalty.

The rumour is that Zhou tried to assassinate Xi.  So it is personal. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on December 06, 2014, 11:26:19 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 06, 2014, 03:27:37 AM
The rumour is that Zhou tried to assassinate Xi.  So it is personal.

Yeah, that and the coup rumours that were swirling at the time of the transition makes this particularly interesting. Of all the unsympathetic high ranking Communists, Zhou Yongkang has to be one of the most unpleasant ones - being the guy responsible for the industrialization of the trade in organs, for the persecution of the Falun Gong, for the habitual arrest and detention of provincial petitioners travelling to Beijing, and for the huge growth in internal labour camps.

That and the murder of his wife - apparently the two guys who drove the car that killed her got sentenced to 20+ years in prison. Somehow they got released after a few years and achieved rapid promotions to senior positions in the oil industry (I believe it was the oil industry).

Zhou has had a pretty unpleasant reputation for a while, before the leadership transition, even for a Standing Member of the Politburo of the CCP.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on December 06, 2014, 06:18:04 PM
I guess his plot power wasn't high enough.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on December 06, 2014, 06:21:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 06, 2014, 11:26:19 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 06, 2014, 03:27:37 AM
The rumour is that Zhou tried to assassinate Xi.  So it is personal.

Yeah, that and the coup rumours that were swirling at the time of the transition makes this particularly interesting. Of all the unsympathetic high ranking Communists, Zhou Yongkang has to be one of the most unpleasant ones - being the guy responsible for the industrialization of the trade in organs, for the persecution of the Falun Gong, for the habitual arrest and detention of provincial petitioners travelling to Beijing, and for the huge growth in internal labour camps.

That and the murder of his wife - apparently the two guys who drove the car that killed her got sentenced to 20+ years in prison. Somehow they got released after a few years and achieved rapid promotions to senior positions in the oil industry (I believe it was the oil industry).

Zhou has had a pretty unpleasant reputation for a while, before the leadership transition, even for a Standing Member of the Politburo of the CCP.

To be fair though, Zhou was the internal security czar.  It was his job. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: citizen k on February 17, 2015, 07:26:24 PM

Quote

'Commie-loving Mainlanders' targeted at Hong Kong's top university
By Clare Baldwin and Lizzie Ko

HONG KONG (Reuters) - A campus election at a top Hong Kong university degenerated into an acrimonious campaign against mainland Chinese candidates, highlighting simmering tensions two months after pro-democracy protests led by local students paralysed parts of the city.

Mainland students say they have always felt a distance from their local peers, but recent events in the Chinese-controlled city have fueled a burgeoning Hong Kong identity among many younger residents, alongside frustration and anger at Beijing.

"To brainwashed Commie-loving Mainlanders, we despise you!", read a flyer posted on the University of Hong Kong's (HKU) "Democracy Wall", underscoring the sharpening divide. The flyer has since been removed.

The so-called "Umbrella Movement" protests late last year, calling for full democracy in Hong Kong, posed the greatest challenge to China's authority since the crushing of a pro-democracy movement in Beijing in 1989.

The Communist Party's People's Daily said this week that life for mainland students in Hong Kong was "getting tougher", and the roughly 150,000 young people it estimates live in the territory were "being treated unfairly as collateral targets".

Divisions at HKU bubbled to the surface when a young woman running for the student union was accused of being a Beijing spy and subjected to online abuse after a campus television report highlighted her Communist Party Youth League membership.

A pro-Beijing newspaper leapt to her defense, warning against what it described as a dangerous "McCarthyite trend" in the former British colony.

Millions of Chinese schoolchildren are members of the Party's Youth League and Young Pioneers.

When another student in the same election confirmed that his grandfather had been a Communist Party member, bright red fliers merging an image of his face with that of Mao Zedong were plastered across his campaign posters.

Despite the accompanying warning to students to "Beware of the Communists, be careful when you vote!" his cabinet, as groups of students running on the same ticket are called, ultimately won.

POLARIZED

"At the time of an election, sometimes things get a little bit polarized," said HKU Dean of Student Affairs Albert Chau. "In the past even in campaigns between two local cabinets there were remarks made about political affiliation, political association which I don't think were very healthy."

Chau said isolated incidents should not seen as a sign of growing tension between mainland Chinese and locals.

Some students are not so sure.

"Hong Kong people are trying to control their hatred towards mainland China or people from mainland China, but you can still feel it," said Norah Zheng, a second-year HKU sociology student from Shandong province. "Mainland students somewhat hate local students as well because we feel this hatred from them."

The divide seems sharpest at HKU - students and professors at other Hong Kong universities said relations between local and mainland students had not worsened since the protests.

HKU had the most mainland students of the city's eight publicly-funded universities last year at nearly 3,000, or 16 percent of the student body, according to government data.

"The situation in Hong Kong has definitely become more political," said Nora Lam, the HKU CampusTV reporter whose story about student candidate Eugenia Yip sparked the spy controversy.

"Many student leaders of the Umbrella Movement were Student Union members, so I think it's justifiable that people are so concerned with the candidates' political views or influence."

In January, Hong Kong leader Leung Chun-ying expressed concern that universities could be incubating a separatist movement that would threaten Beijing's sovereignty.

"We must stay alert," he said, singling out HKU's student union magazine Undergrad for advocating self-determination.

"We also ask political figures with close ties to the leaders of the student movement to advise them against putting forward such fallacies."




Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 17, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
It is really bad now.  For two weeks in a row, there were anti-mainland tourist riots in different parts of Hong Kong.  Hundreds of people gathered in malls and shouted slogans against the toursts, telling them to leave and calling them names (locusts being the favourite). 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:21:20 AM
I guess angry Hong Kongers found a safer target to vent their frustration on than the government.

I was amused to see the Chinese Government reference McCarthy.  Kind of an obscure reference for non-Americans I would think.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:39:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:21:20 AM
I guess angry Hong Kongers found a safer target to vent their frustration on than the government.

I was amused to see the Chinese Government reference McCarthy.  Kind of an obscure reference for non-Americans I would think.

Nah, they targetted mainland tourists not because it is a safe target.  Imagine tens of millions of tourists come to your city, and they do so not only on the busy weeks like Christmas, but 365 days a year.  They are going to turn your world upside down, and this is exactly what happened here, to an already cramped place.  All your favourite retail places will be gone, replaced by shops that only the tourists want, in our case thousands and thousands of drug stores, jewelry stores, Swiss watch places.  Everything will go much more expensive, from meals to housing to baby milk powder.  They don't just go to the landmarks.  The mainland tourists swarm all of HK's malls, supermarkets, they are everywhere.  They aren't here for sightseeing.  They are here because they don't trust their own supermarkets, drug stores and jewelry stores that sell fakes.  Hundreds of thousands of professional tourists travel between HK and the mainland, making several round trips a day to smuggle small quantities of milk powder, toilet paper and instant noodles to the mainland.  Imagine what this does to our public transport system.  Imagine local mothers can't buy milk powder for their newborns.  Imagine tourists taking up your hospital places so that locals can't have access to hospital beds.  Some of the bahaviour of the tourists don't help, like not respecting queues, peeing everywhere, shitting in swimming pools (yes, they love our swimming pools because mainland pools are more expensive) etc.

They feel they have to scare the tourists away themselves because the government want more tourists to come to get more business. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:42:25 AM
Well now I only said it was safer, not safe.  I think they are attacking the mainlanders as a proxy for the government as they feel powerless to have any impact on how their city is run.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:47:05 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:42:25 AM
Well now I only said it was safer, not safe.  I think they are attacking the mainlanders as a proxy for the government as they feel powerless to have any impact on how their city is run.

The anger against the tourists is severe even among pro-government groups.  Most civil servants are pro-government, but everybody I meet complain about the tourists.  They are not just making the queues for the giant Buddha longer.  They are making housing prices reach insane levels, taking away school and hospital places, turning malls into nothing but a collection of drug stores and jewelry places. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:49:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:47:05 AM
They are not just making the queues for the giant Buddha longer.

Their attachment to seeing the giant Buddha is the source of their unhappiness :om:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:55:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:49:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:47:05 AM
They are not just making the queues for the giant Buddha longer.

Their attachment to seeing the giant Buddha is the source of their unhappiness :om:

The real source of their unhappiness is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on February 18, 2015, 09:40:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:21:20 AM
I guess angry Hong Kongers found a safer target to vent their frustration on than the government.

I was amused to see the Chinese Government reference McCarthy.  Kind of an obscure reference for non-Americans I would think.

Not in the least, it's used and referenced over here too. The good senator is quite infamous.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 09:41:45 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 18, 2015, 09:40:07 AM
Not in the least, it's used and referenced over here too. The good senator is quite infamous.

'Politician tries to score points by taking advantage of public paranoia'

Is that really so unique?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on February 18, 2015, 10:15:27 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 09:41:45 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 18, 2015, 09:40:07 AM
Not in the least, it's used and referenced over here too. The good senator is quite infamous.

'Politician tries to score points by taking advantage of public paranoia'

Is that really so unique?

Given that we haven't had that many elected politicians in our history, I'd say yeah  :P  Franco didn't need to make up many excuses to get people out of the way.

But your culture is our culture. It shouldn't be surprising that we adopt so many American references when you enjoy the kind of cultural dominance you have.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on February 18, 2015, 10:25:00 AM
BBC news is doing the usual report on people going on 20 hour train journeys and all that sort of thing because of the new year.
After the report the guy said "For BBC news this is Martin Patience".
Patience.
Ha.
That made me smile.

I'm going to try and make some gyoza (餃子, dunno the Chinese pronunciation) to celebrate Chinese new year...or rather because a Chinese friend was talking about them and made me want some.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: garbon on February 18, 2015, 10:30:30 AM
Frozen gyoza are one of the cheap, tasty items that one can get at Trader Joe's. :)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 10:31:17 AM
I am not celebrating Chinese New Year until somebody gives me a red envelope full of money.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 10:33:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:55:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2015, 08:49:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 18, 2015, 08:47:05 AM
They are not just making the queues for the giant Buddha longer.

Their attachment to seeing the giant Buddha is the source of their unhappiness :om:

The real source of their unhappiness is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. 

Making it harder and harder to live in their city.  Tourist destination cities really suffer from that as a rule and I can only imagine in Hong Kong and Macau it is magnified.

But I was just making a Buddhist joke.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on February 18, 2015, 10:44:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 18, 2015, 10:30:30 AM
Frozen gyoza are one of the cheap, tasty items that one can get at Trader Joe's. :)
They have them even in the regular non-oriental supermarkets here.
But they're damn expensive <_<
But oh well. If I fail to make my own I can always buy them on sale next week!
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on February 19, 2015, 08:09:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 18, 2015, 10:25:00 AM
BBC news is doing the usual report on people going on 20 hour train journeys and all that sort of thing because of the new year.
After the report the guy said "For BBC news this is Martin Patience".
Patience.
Ha.
That made me smile.

I'm going to try and make some gyoza (餃子, dunno the Chinese pronunciation) to celebrate Chinese new year...or rather because a Chinese friend was talking about them and made me want some.

Jiaozi in Mandarin.  Gaozi in Cantonese.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on March 07, 2015, 08:42:56 AM
Interesting, provocative piece. It does seem a brave thing to take on the allies of a previous leader, no?
Quote(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsi.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FBN-HG952_cover_P_20150306105233.jpg&hash=50b0332f801c73592dd2379feca73480ccdc0625)
Chinese President Xi Jinping, front center, and other Chinese leaders attend the opening meeting on Thursday of the third session of the National People's Congress at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing. PHOTO: XINHUA/ZUMA PRESS
By DAVID SHAMBAUGH
March 6, 2015 11:26 a.m. ET
137 COMMENTS
On Thursday, the National People's Congress convened in Beijing in what has become a familiar annual ritual. Some 3,000 "elected" delegates from all over the country—ranging from colorfully clad ethnic minorities to urbane billionaires—will meet for a week to discuss the state of the nation and to engage in the pretense of political participation.

Some see this impressive gathering as a sign of the strength of the Chinese political system—but it masks serious weaknesses. Chinese politics has always had a theatrical veneer, with staged events like the congress intended to project the power and stability of the Chinese Communist Party, or CCP. Officials and citizens alike know that they are supposed to conform to these rituals, participating cheerfully and parroting back official slogans. This behavior is known in Chinese as biaotai, "declaring where one stands," but it is little more than an act of symbolic compliance.

Despite appearances, China's political system is badly broken, and nobody knows it better than the Communist Party itself. China's strongman leader, Xi Jinping , is hoping that a crackdown on dissent and corruption will shore up the party's rule. He is determined to avoid becoming the Mikhail Gorbachev of China, presiding over the party's collapse. But instead of being the antithesis of Mr. Gorbachev, Mr. Xi may well wind up having the same effect. His despotism is severely stressing China's system and society—and bringing it closer to a breaking point.

Predicting the demise of authoritarian regimes is a risky business. Few Western experts forecast the collapse of the Soviet Union before it occurred in 1991; the CIA missed it entirely. The downfall of Eastern Europe's communist states two years earlier was similarly scorned as the wishful thinking of anticommunists—until it happened. The post-Soviet "color revolutions" in Georgia, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan from 2003 to 2005, as well as the 2011 Arab Spring uprisings, all burst forth unanticipated.

China-watchers have been on high alert for telltale signs of regime decay and decline ever since the regime's near-death experience in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Since then, several seasoned Sinologists have risked their professional reputations by asserting that the collapse of CCP rule was inevitable. Others were more cautious—myself included. But times change in China, and so must our analyses.

The endgame of Chinese communist rule has now begun, I believe, and it has progressed further than many think. We don't know what the pathway from now until the end will look like, of course. It will probably be highly unstable and unsettled. But until the system begins to unravel in some obvious way, those inside of it will play along—thus contributing to the facade of stability.

Communist rule in China is unlikely to end quietly. A single event is unlikely to trigger a peaceful implosion of the regime. Its demise is likely to be protracted, messy and violent. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Mr. Xi will be deposed in a power struggle or coup d'état. With his aggressive anticorruption campaign—a focus of this week's National People's Congress—he is overplaying a weak hand and deeply aggravating key party, state, military and commercial constituencies.

The Chinese have a proverb, waiying, neiruan—hard on the outside, soft on the inside. Mr. Xi is a genuinely tough ruler. He exudes conviction and personal confidence. But this hard personality belies a party and political system that is extremely fragile on the inside.

Consider five telling indications of the regime's vulnerability and the party's systemic weaknesses.

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A military band conductor during the opening session of the National People's Congress on Thursday at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing. PHOTO: ASSOCIATED PRESS
First, China's economic elites have one foot out the door, and they are ready to flee en masse if the system really begins to crumble. In 2014, Shanghai's Hurun Research Institute, which studies China's wealthy, found that 64% of the "high net worth individuals" whom it polled—393 millionaires and billionaires—were either emigrating or planning to do so. Rich Chinese are sending their children to study abroad in record numbers (in itself, an indictment of the quality of the Chinese higher-education system).

Just this week, the Journal reported, federal agents searched several Southern California locations that U.S. authorities allege are linked to "multimillion-dollar birth-tourism businesses that enabled thousands of Chinese women to travel here and return home with infants born as U.S. citizens." Wealthy Chinese are also buying property abroad at record levels and prices, and they are parking their financial assets overseas, often in well-shielded tax havens and shell companies.

Meanwhile, Beijing is trying to extradite back to China a large number of alleged financial fugitives living abroad. When a country's elites—many of them party members—flee in such large numbers, it is a telling sign of lack of confidence in the regime and the country's future.


Second, since taking office in 2012, Mr. Xi has greatly intensified the political repression that has blanketed China since 2009. The targets include the press, social media, film, arts and literature, religious groups, the Internet, intellectuals, Tibetans and Uighurs, dissidents, lawyers, NGOs, university students and textbooks. The Central Committee sent a draconian order known as Document No. 9 down through the party hierarchy in 2013, ordering all units to ferret out any seeming endorsement of the West's "universal values"—including constitutional democracy, civil society, a free press and neoliberal economics.

A more secure and confident government would not institute such a severe crackdown. It is a symptom of the party leadership's deep anxiety and insecurity.

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A protester is pushed to the ground by a paramilitary policeman in Beijing on Wednesday before the opening of the National People's Congress nearby. PHOTO: ASSOCIATED PRESS
Third, even many regime loyalists are just going through the motions. It is hard to miss the theater of false pretense that has permeated the Chinese body politic for the past few years. Last summer, I was one of a handful of foreigners (and the only American) who attended a conference about the "China Dream," Mr. Xi's signature concept, at a party-affiliated think tank in Beijing. We sat through two days of mind-numbing, nonstop presentations by two dozen party scholars—but their faces were frozen, their body language was wooden, and their boredom was palpable. They feigned compliance with the party and their leader's latest mantra. But it was evident that the propaganda had lost its power, and the emperor had no clothes.

In December, I was back in Beijing for a conference at the Central Party School, the party's highest institution of doctrinal instruction, and once again, the country's top officials and foreign policy experts recited their stock slogans verbatim. During lunch one day, I went to the campus bookstore—always an important stop so that I can update myself on what China's leading cadres are being taught. Tomes on the store's shelves ranged from Lenin's "Selected Works" to Condoleezza Rice's memoirs, and a table at the entrance was piled high with copies of a pamphlet by Mr. Xi on his campaign to promote the "mass line"—that is, the party's connection to the masses. "How is this selling?" I asked the clerk. "Oh, it's not," she replied. "We give it away." The size of the stack suggested it was hardly a hot item.

Fourth, the corruption that riddles the party-state and the military also pervades Chinese society as a whole. Mr. Xi's anticorruption campaign is more sustained and severe than any previous one, but no campaign can eliminate the problem. It is stubbornly rooted in the single-party system, patron-client networks, an economy utterly lacking in transparency, a state-controlled media and the absence of the rule of law.

Moreover, Mr. Xi's campaign is turning out to be at least as much a selective purge as an antigraft campaign. Many of its targets to date have been political clients and allies of former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin . Now 88, Mr. Jiang is still the godfather figure of Chinese politics. Going after Mr. Jiang's patronage network while he is still alive is highly risky for Mr. Xi, particularly since Mr. Xi doesn't seem to have brought along his own coterie of loyal clients to promote into positions of power. Another problem: Mr. Xi, a child of China's first-generation revolutionary elites, is one of the party's "princelings," and his political ties largely extend to other princelings. This silver-spoon generation is widely reviled in Chinese society at large.

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Mr. Xi at the Schloss Bellevue presidential residency during his visit to fellow export powerhouse Germany in Berlin on March 28, 2014. PHOTO: AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
Finally, China's economy—for all the Western views of it as an unstoppable juggernaut—is stuck in a series of systemic traps from which there is no easy exit. In November 2013, Mr. Xi presided over the party's Third Plenum, which unveiled a huge package of proposed economic reforms, but so far, they are sputtering on the launchpad. Yes, consumer spending has been rising, red tape has been reduced, and some fiscal reforms have been introduced, but overall, Mr. Xi's ambitious goals have been stillborn. The reform package challenges powerful, deeply entrenched interest groups—such as state-owned enterprises and local party cadres—and they are plainly blocking its implementation.

These five increasingly evident cracks in the regime's control can be fixed only through political reform. Until and unless China relaxes its draconian political controls, it will never become an innovative society and a "knowledge economy"—a main goal of the Third Plenum reforms. The political system has become the primary impediment to China's needed social and economic reforms. If Mr. Xi and party leaders don't relax their grip, they may be summoning precisely the fate they hope to avoid.

In the decades since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the upper reaches of China's leadership have been obsessed with the fall of its fellow communist giant. Hundreds of Chinese postmortem analyses have dissected the causes of the Soviet disintegration.

Mr. Xi's real "China Dream" has been to avoid the Soviet nightmare. Just a few months into his tenure, he gave a telling internal speech ruing the Soviet Union's demise and bemoaning Mr. Gorbachev's betrayals, arguing that Moscow had lacked a "real man" to stand up to its reformist last leader. Mr. Xi's wave of repression today is meant to be the opposite of Mr. Gorbachev's perestroika and glasnost. Instead of opening up, Mr. Xi is doubling down on controls over dissenters, the economy and even rivals within the party.

But reaction and repression aren't Mr. Xi's only option. His predecessors, Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao , drew very different lessons from the Soviet collapse. From 2000 to 2008, they instituted policies intended to open up the system with carefully limited political reforms.

They strengthened local party committees and experimented with voting for multicandidate party secretaries. They recruited more businesspeople and intellectuals into the party. They expanded party consultation with nonparty groups and made the Politburo's proceedings more transparent. They improved feedback mechanisms within the party, implemented more meritocratic criteria for evaluation and promotion, and created a system of mandatory midcareer training for all 45 million state and party cadres. They enforced retirement requirements and rotated officials and military officers between job assignments every couple of years.

In effect, for a while Mr. Jiang and Mr. Hu sought to manage change, not to resist it. But Mr. Xi wants none of this. Since 2009 (when even the heretofore open-minded Mr. Hu changed course and started to clamp down), an increasingly anxious regime has rolled back every single one of these political reforms (with the exception of the cadre-training system). These reforms were masterminded by Mr. Jiang's political acolyte and former vice president, Zeng Qinghong, who retired in 2008 and is now under suspicion in Mr. Xi's anticorruption campaign—another symbol of Mr. Xi's hostility to the measures that might ease the ills of a crumbling system.

Some experts think that Mr. Xi's harsh tactics may actually presage a more open and reformist direction later in his term. I don't buy it. This leader and regime see politics in zero-sum terms: Relaxing control, in their view, is a sure step toward the demise of the system and their own downfall. They also take the conspiratorial view that the U.S. is actively working to subvert Communist Party rule. None of this suggests that sweeping reforms are just around the corner.

We cannot predict when Chinese communism will collapse, but it is hard not to conclude that we are witnessing its final phase. The CCP is the world's second-longest ruling regime (behind only North Korea), and no party can rule forever.

Looking ahead, China-watchers should keep their eyes on the regime's instruments of control and on those assigned to use those instruments. Large numbers of citizens and party members alike are already voting with their feet and leaving the country or displaying their insincerity by pretending to comply with party dictates.

We should watch for the day when the regime's propaganda agents and its internal security apparatus start becoming lax in enforcing the party's writ—or when they begin to identify with dissidents, like the East German Stasi agent in the film "The Lives of Others" who came to sympathize with the targets of his spying. When human empathy starts to win out over ossified authority, the endgame of Chinese communism will really have begun.

Dr. Shambaugh is a professor of international affairs and the director of the China Policy Program at George Washington University and a nonresident senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. His books include "China's Communist Party: Atrophy and Adaptation" and, most recently, "China Goes Global: The Partial Power."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 07, 2015, 08:44:17 PM
This is the most dangerous sign for Xi, hard to be a long lasting strongman if you don't put your own cadre of supporters in power

QuoteGoing after Mr. Jiang's patronage network while he is still alive is highly risky for Mr. Xi, particularly since Mr. Xi doesn't seem to have brought along his own coterie of loyal clients to promote into positions of power. Another problem: Mr. Xi, a child of China's first-generation revolutionary elites, is one of the party's "princelings," and his political ties largely extend to other princelings. This silver-spoon generation is widely reviled in Chinese society at large.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on March 08, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
How much of this is an objective evaluation of the communist party's future, and how much of it is wishful thinking?  These predictions appear on an almost weekly if not daily basis, but we are talking about a party that has survived the great leap forward, the cultural revolution and Tian An Men.  Some of the arguments mentioned are not convincing.  China's students have studied in overseas countries for more than a century, and there is a long tradition of moving to other places for a better life.  Using that as his first piece of evidence seems weak.  The other pieces of evidence, like bored officials at a seminar or free copies of the leader's teachings, are not impressive either.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2015, 12:15:15 AM
QuoteWhy a Confucian revival and the Internet could have unexpected consequences for China
Michael Schuman | March 4, 2015 7:30am
Tech Tank
Brookings


For much of China's imperial age, Confucius served – unwillingly – as a tool of autocratic emperors. Today, China's new emperors – the leaders of the Communist Party – are again turning to Confucius to build support for their dictatorial rule. However, the Communists can't ensure their political future by relying on the country's philosophical past.

Perhaps the greatest tragedy of Confucius's enduring influence on East Asian civilization is that he has become so intimately associated with authoritarianism. Confucius the historical philosopher spent his life preaching that good government should be based on benevolence and authority must be earned by virtuous acts, not imposed through coercion.

Unfortunately, those lofty ideals were sidelined when Confucius's teachings became the imperial state's orthodox ideology. An army of scholar-officials reinterpreted Confucius to suit their royal masters, by stressing virtues like filial piety and conceptualizing society as a strict hierarchy with the emperor at its apex. Confucius became a symbol to convince the masses that the emperors possessed the "Mandate of Heaven" – or the moral right to rule.

It is this imperial Confucius who the Communists think could win them that same Mandate. For much of its existence, the Communist Party had vilified the great sage as a feudal leftover, and during the Mao Zedong years, they tried to purge him from society. But the Communists had a change of heart in the 1980s after the introduction of "socialism with Chinese characteristics" – or what the rest of us call capitalism. The Marxist bombast of Mao sounded out of touch with the affluent times, so the regime required a new ideology to justify its rule.

Confucius seemed the perfect solution. Here was an undeniably Chinese political tradition that, the Communists believed, could uphold their totalitarian rule as it did the emperors', and at the same time fight off unwanted democratic ideas from the West. State newspapers that had once excoriated the sage instead praised him. Communist leaders litter their speeches with Confucian-sounding terms like "harmony." The campaign has intensified under current President Xi Jinping, who quotes Confucius and other Confucian thinkers so often he can sound more like a Ming Dynasty mandarin than a modern Marxist. Following in the footsteps of the emperors – literally – he went on a pilgrimage to Qufu, Confucius's hometown, in 2013, where he committed to study Confucian texts.

Confucius, however, won't serve the Communists as dutifully as he did the emperors. The Communist Confucian campaign has so far not been intensive enough. In the imperial age, the government pounded its version of Confucian ideals into the minds of the public with relentless perseverance. The only way to pass the grueling exams necessary to enter the civil service was to master the Confucian classics. Confucian mores infused family rituals. Confucius provided a kind of glue to hold society together.

What Beijing is attempting to create today is not a Confucian state but something more like "authoritarianism with Chinese characteristics." Though Xi Jinping has been advocating that schools teach the Chinese classics, we're still far from a true revival of Confucian education on a wide scale. Unless the Confucian campaign goes beyond mere slogans and exhortations, it's hard to imagine Confucius becoming a pillar of a new, Communist-led empire.

Beijing's Communists are also facing a vastly changed world than their predecessors. During the dynastic period, Chinese civilization had no real challenges from the outside. Invaders like the Mongols were absorbed into Confucian culture. Now Chinese are exposed to all sorts of influences from the Internet, foreign movies and TV programs, and overseas travel and education. That has changed their expectations about government and their ideas on how society should function. Confucius has (and should have) a place as part of this global culture, but that doesn't mean Beijing's leaders can impose their own version of a Confucian orthodoxy and shut out unwanted ideas from the rest of the world.

In fact, Confucius could end up mixing with those foreign ideals and generating political tumult. By reintroducing Confucius, the party is encouraging ordinary Chinese to revisit Confucius's teachings on their own. Confucian schools have opened and book clubs have formed. The Confucius they discover in those pages may not be the Confucius of Xi Jinping, but the Confucius of high moral principles who stood up to the rulers of his day. China's citizens may compare their leaders today against Confucius's lofty standards, and find them wanting.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on March 09, 2015, 01:30:41 AM
I think the real glue that works is nationalism.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: celedhring on March 09, 2015, 02:58:01 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 09, 2015, 01:30:41 AM
I think the real glue that works is nationalism.

That's how I have always interpreted China's expansionism of recent times.

Also, there's been an onslaught of nationalistic Chinese films in the past few years, when previously the Chinese government didn't give a shit about backing film production.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2015, 07:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 08, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
How much of this is an objective evaluation of the communist party's future, and how much of it is wishful thinking?  These predictions appear on an almost weekly if not daily basis, but we are talking about a party that has survived the great leap forward, the cultural revolution and Tian An Men.  Some of the arguments mentioned are not convincing.  China's students have studied in overseas countries for more than a century, and there is a long tradition of moving to other places for a better life.  Using that as his first piece of evidence seems weak.  The other pieces of evidence, like bored officials at a seminar or free copies of the leader's teachings, are not impressive either.

Why would a Chinese collapse be something one would wish for?  The implications would be pretty severe.  Now a corrupt Chinese state teetering along?  That works.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on March 09, 2015, 07:43:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 09, 2015, 07:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 08, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
How much of this is an objective evaluation of the communist party's future, and how much of it is wishful thinking?  These predictions appear on an almost weekly if not daily basis, but we are talking about a party that has survived the great leap forward, the cultural revolution and Tian An Men.  Some of the arguments mentioned are not convincing.  China's students have studied in overseas countries for more than a century, and there is a long tradition of moving to other places for a better life.  Using that as his first piece of evidence seems weak.  The other pieces of evidence, like bored officials at a seminar or free copies of the leader's teachings, are not impressive either.

Why would a Chinese collapse be something one would wish for?  The implications would be pretty severe.  Now a corrupt Chinese state teetering along?  That works.
Is anyone saying China is going to collapse?

Saying the Communist Party isn't going to last forever doesn't mean that China is going anywhere. It could collapse into interminable civil war (it won't) and it would eventually bounce back as one of the world's strongest states simply due to the fact that there are 900 million ethnic Han.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on March 09, 2015, 07:46:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 09, 2015, 07:43:17 AM
Is anyone saying China is going to collapse?

Saying the Communist Party isn't going to last forever doesn't mean that China is going anywhere. It could collapse into interminable civil war (it won't) and it would eventually bounce back as one of the world's strongest states simply due to the fact that there are 900 million ethnic Han.

Oh for Godsake Tim, I did not mean that the Earth would open up and China would disappear into its maw.  I meant if China became destabilized.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on March 09, 2015, 11:21:17 AM
The article seems somewhat off from my perspective - not that I'm an expert.

My read of Xi's purges is that they're in large parts reactive. Zhou Yongkang - a Jiang Zemin ally, if I'm not mistaken - seemingly tried to pull off a coup - somewhere between a hard coup and a soft coup - against Xi prior to his installation. It only seems reasonable that Xi repays that bill.

Basically, the way I see it is that the purges are a symptom of the problem. In this case, the problem is the classic one that once a single group has had a firm monopoly of power, factions within that group will struggle for the power and that struggle will become more intense.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2015, 11:27:37 AM
I don't see why you'd consider any purges in a consolidation and strengthening of power for a relatively new leader as "reactive"--it's a very proactive move.  Always has been for new leadership.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Jacob on March 09, 2015, 11:36:25 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 09, 2015, 11:27:37 AM
I don't see why you'd consider any purges in a consolidation and strengthening of power for a relatively new leader as "reactive"--it's a very proactive move.  Always has been for new leadership.

Fair enough - and even more so if the people being purged tried to take you out previously.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2015, 04:32:35 PM
Some ig'nant ass motherfuckers.   :lol:

QuoteChinese tourists in Thailand make headlines again after washing feet in bathroom sinks

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fshanghaiist.com%2Fattachments%2Fshang_shanghaiist%2Ftourist-feet-sink.PNG&hash=8fcb1b13e03dd553c285a140bf36efff72d5b227)

Chinese tourists continue to attract criticism for a distinct lack of etiquette abroad, this time for washing their feet and shoes in public toilet sinks on Phi Phi island, Thailand.

Thai media have chastised the culprits for their "inappropriate" conduct, with Chinese media outlet NetEase publishing images capturing the crude act.

This is not the first time there has been an outcry over the boorish behavior of Chinese tourists in Thailand. Notably, a Chinese man was questioned by police after a drunken joyride in a stolen pedicab, and a group of Chinese tourists were busted pushing over barricades at the Grand Palace in Bangkok by security footage.

Given the recent spate of Chinese travelers abusing the amenities at tourist sites in Thailand, Thai officials may wish to reconsider their decision not to introduce separated toilets to accommodate the unruliness of Chinese tourists.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on March 13, 2015, 04:36:59 PM
My first reaction after seeing those photos is - how is that pose humanly possible?  That's awesome acrobatics there. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 13, 2015, 05:16:35 PM
I wash my feet in the sink all the time.  :showoff:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2015, 05:17:51 PM
Your sink, perhaps.  Not the sink at Panera Bread.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on March 13, 2015, 05:22:20 PM
Yeah, but they're the same height.

If I was homeless, though...
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Ed Anger on March 13, 2015, 05:54:17 PM
Gross
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on March 13, 2015, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 08, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
How much of this is an objective evaluation of the communist party's future, and how much of it is wishful thinking?  These predictions appear on an almost weekly if not daily basis, but we are talking about a party that has survived the great leap forward, the cultural revolution and Tian An Men.  Some of the arguments mentioned are not convincing.  China's students have studied in overseas countries for more than a century, and there is a long tradition of moving to other places for a better life.  Using that as his first piece of evidence seems weak.  The other pieces of evidence, like bored officials at a seminar or free copies of the leader's teachings, are not impressive either.
Fair enough.

The piece is striking because David Shambaugh generally isn't a writer who routinely predicts the collapse of the CCP (and he's influential in Washington). It's striking that he's saying this. As the Global Times put it he used to be seen as a 'moderate China scholar', but now he's a 'vanguard agitator' :lol:

QuoteBasically, the way I see it is that the purges are a symptom of the problem. In this case, the problem is the classic one that once a single group has had a firm monopoly of power, factions within that group will struggle for the power and that struggle will become more intense.
Is that not part of his point when he says that he could foresee Xi facing another coup? So far the Chinese system has managed to keep the factionalism less overt and less serious (not least because the economy was growing fast and everyone could get rich together), if it loses that and the struggle becomes more intense then I think the risks are pretty high.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 11:11:17 AM
Thought this was interesting:  http://news.yahoo.com/china-turns-nationalist-veterans-outcasts-propaganda-heroes-072029419.html

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: grumbler on April 08, 2015, 02:33:10 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 11:11:17 AM
Thought this was interesting:  http://news.yahoo.com/china-turns-nationalist-veterans-outcasts-propaganda-heroes-072029419.html

"We have always been at war with Eastasia."
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on April 14, 2015, 01:13:28 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-32282029

QuoteChina scraps unlimited Hong Kong entry for Shenzhen residents

China is to stop issuing multiple entry Hong Kong visas to residents of Shenzhen, state media reports.

The move is an attempt by Beijing to ease growing anger in Hong Kong over shopping trips by mainlanders who take advantage of lower taxes.

Shenzhen residents will now only be able to enter Hong Kong once per week, and stay for no longer than a week.

Hong Kong officials say 47 million visits were made in 2014 by mainland Chinese people.

QuoteJuliana Liu, BBC News, Hong Kong

Hong Kong activists who have been campaigning against parallel traders are celebrating what they call a small victory. The new policy is a clear sign that, despite a lack of capitulation to last year's Occupy Central pro-democracy protests, this time - when the row is over livelihood rather than political issues - the Chinese government will try to appease Hong Kong residents. Ronald Leung, a volunteer with the North District Parallel Imports Concern Group, told the BBC the policy change was an effort by central authorities to boost the popularity of pro-Beijing Chief Executive CY Leung. But the activists believe any drop in parallel trading will be temporary. There continues to be enormous demand by mainland Chinese for food and household goods sold in Hong Kong. They say the Shenzhen residents who had been ferrying those products will soon be replaced by Hong Kong residents who are not subject to travel restrictions.

About a tenth of those visits were by people who entered Hong Kong more than once a week, a large proportion of them Shenzhen residents holding multiple entry visas.

Many of the visitors buy up household goods in bulk to resell across the border - as Hong Kong does not charge sales tax - despite this being illegal.

There have been angry protests in recent months over this so-called parallel trading, occasionally resulting in scuffles in shopping malls close to the border.

China's Xinhua news agency, citing the ministry of security, said on Monday that the new rules applied immediately.

It said the decision had been made because of concerns that Hong Kong was struggling to cope with the huge numbers of tourists.

Hong Kong's Chief Executive CY Leung welcomed the move, saying he had raised the issue with Beijing in June.

Mainlanders have to get permission from their government to enter Hong Kong.

Mr Leung warned that existing visas would remain valid, meaning it could take some time for the effect of the change to be seen.

He also cautioned that the "unruly protests" seen in towns close to the border had actually hampered the discussions and "hurt the feelings between the people of Hong Kong and the mainland", the South China Morning Post reports.

Parallel trading has been a key factor in the growing anti-mainland sentiment in Hong Kong.

There is huge demand in China for household items from Hong Kong, in particular milk powder, as they are seen as being both cheaper and better quality.

Hong Kongers say this trade pushes up costs and causes huge delays at border crossings, while also complaining about poor behaviour from mainlanders.

The authorities on both sides of the border routinely arrest people caught smuggling and crack down on commercial operators, but locals have long demanded more decisive action.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 14, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
I thought Hong Kong rests on the idea known as free trade. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 08:04:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 14, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
I thought Hong Kong rests on the idea known as free trade. 

You should only vote for those who agree to support free trade.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on April 15, 2015, 08:07:26 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 14, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
I thought Hong Kong rests on the idea known as free trade.

Is the problem with the mainlanders really that bad?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 08:18:08 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 15, 2015, 08:07:26 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 14, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
I thought Hong Kong rests on the idea known as free trade.

Is the problem with the mainlanders really that bad?

Yeah.  There is an estimate that HK gets more visitors per year than the UK.  For such a small place, it is way over our capacity.  It has transformed our retail scene that only shops that cater to rich mainland tourists can survive the obscene levels of rent.  Our public transport system is overloaded.  There is very high inflation of basic necessities, as local HKers need to compete with rich mainlanders for stuff like bread.  The mainlanders don't come here to see attractions.  They come here to buy basic necessities, because they don't trust their own products.  We as an economy has benefited a lot from the increased business, but the problem is that the spoils are only obtained by the landlords, the rich, business owners and those who work in the high end retail industry.  The general population only feel the pain. 
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 08:18:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 08:04:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 14, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
I thought Hong Kong rests on the idea known as free trade. 

You should only vote for those who agree to support free trade.

Those who support free trade the most are already in power :contract:  The opposition wants increased protectionism, in essence.  But under HK's political system, the business tycoons will always be in power and those who want protectionism can never share power no matter how popular they are.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2015, 08:44:04 AM
Isn't all that stuff imported anyway?  Why can't you just import more?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2015, 08:44:04 AM
Isn't all that stuff imported anyway?  Why can't you just import more?

It is the businesses charging whatever they can.  Basically, a working class family making 20k a year needs to compete with rich mainlanders with tens of millions in cash to buy milk powder.  The mainlanders will always outbid the little guys.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 09:22:50 AM
Also it is a matter of square footage. You can only store so much milk powder inside urban establishments.

Damn milk powder sounds gross though.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2015, 09:26:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
It is the businesses charging whatever they can.  Basically, a working class family making 20k a year needs to compete with rich mainlanders with tens of millions in cash to buy milk powder.  The mainlanders will always outbid the little guys.

Which makes sense if everyone is bidding for the last container of milk powder left in the world.  Not so much if more can be produced and imported.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 09:28:23 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2015, 09:26:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
It is the businesses charging whatever they can.  Basically, a working class family making 20k a year needs to compete with rich mainlanders with tens of millions in cash to buy milk powder.  The mainlanders will always outbid the little guys.

Which makes sense if everyone is bidding for the last container of milk powder left in the world.  Not so much if more can be produced and imported.

Problem is we are one of the few places in the world where tourists vastly outnumber locals.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 09:30:16 AM
Oh and if the product is flats, they can't be produced quickly enough.  And the consequence is locals don't have places to sleep.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2015, 09:31:48 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 09:28:23 AM
Problem is we are one of the few places in the world where tourists vastly outnumber locals.

A gigantic problem if you all are bidding for one milk powder container.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on April 15, 2015, 02:21:54 PM
Mono's political quietism ends as he joins HKIP.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 05:41:53 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 15, 2015, 02:21:54 PM
Mono's political quietism ends as he joins HKIP.

I am saying, yes the mainland tourists have brought tons of pain, but we still need more of them because that will bring our GDP up  :P

I simply explained why the majority of the population hate them.  I don't agree with them  :sleep:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 05:51:16 PM
Wait you like having to pay more for your powdered milk?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 05:56:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 05:51:16 PM
Wait you like having to pay more for your powdered milk?

I don't.  But it is not about whether I like it or not.  It is about free trade and GDP.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 16, 2015, 05:32:58 PM
One of the things I deal with at work has to do with tourists.  School buses.  There are no designated school buses in Hong Kong.  There are plenty of charter bus companies.  Guess what, they all want to do business with the tourists because they pay more than local parents, schools and students.  So the parents complain to us that nobody wants to bid for the school contracts to take their kids to school and back.  They all prefer to take the tourists to shops where the mainlanders will be coerced to buy crap.  Afterwards the tourist guides, bus drivers, shop staff etc will all take a cut in kickbacks.  The supply of school buses cannot be increased because HK is already such a small place and road space is very limited.  So Transport won't issue any more permits for charter buses.  That's a fixed number and locals can't compete with tourists.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2015, 02:08:24 AM
Appears? Fuck the AP, they can rot in hell with the BBC and other cowards of their ilk.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/17/gao-yu-and-document-no-9-china-jails-journalist-for-leaking-state-secrets

Quote
Gao Yu and Document No 9: China jails journalist for leaking state secrets
Guilty verdict and seven-year sentence appears to confirm formal Communist party policy on curbing press freedoms and civil society

Associated Press in Beijing

Friday 17 April 2015 04.12 BST  Last modified on Friday 17 April 2015 08.04 BST 

A Beijing court has sentenced a veteran Chinese journalist to seven years in prison after convicting her of leaking a document detailing the Communist party leadership's resolve to aggressively target civil society and press freedom as a threat to its monopoly on power.

The document that Gao Yu, 71, was convicted of leaking, deemed a state secret, underpins a clampdown under the administration of the Communist party leader, Xi Jinping.

The court verdict appears to confirm the authenticity of the leaked document, which had been reported since June 2013 but was never discussed openly by the leadership. It verifies widely held assumptions about Xi's distrust of any social organisation outside party control, recently manifested in the more-than month-long detentions of five women's rights activists held after planning to start a public awareness campaign about sexual harassment.

Gao had denied the charges, which could have carried a life sentence. Her lawyer Mo Shaoping said she was convicted of leaking state secrets by giving the strategy paper, known as Document No 9, to an overseas media group. The document argued for aggressive curbs on the spread of western democracy, universal values, civil society and press freedom, which the party considers a threat to its rule.

Another of Gao's lawyers, Shang Baojun, said Gao did not speak during the verdict and sentencing, but told her brother, Gao Wei, that she could not accept the result. "We will definitely appeal," Shang said.

Speaking to the Associated Press, Gao Wei said his sister appeared thinner and frailer than before her detention a year ago.

The court seemed to disregard Gao Yu's defence lawyers but heard only the prosecution, Gao Wei said, a common complaint in such cases where the outcome is usually determined before the court meets. "I'm very angry and concerned for my sister," Gao Wei said.

Police patrolled the perimeter of Beijing's No 3 intermediate court where the verdict was delivered. Journalists and foreign diplomats gathered at the court but were denied entry to the hearing.

"We're obviously disappointed with the verdict," said the US embassy first secretary, Dan Biers.

Gao, who wrote about politics, economics and social issues for media in Hong Kong and overseas, has already served time in prison on state secrets charges more than two decades ago.

In a statement, human rights watchdog Amnesty International said Gao was the victim of a vaguely worded and arbitrary state secrets law that is often used against activists to quell freedom of expression.

"This deplorable sentence against Gao Yu is nothing more than blatant political persecution by the Chinese authorities," William Nee, the group's China researcher, said in the statement.

The Hong Kong magazine to which Gao is alleged to have leaked the document, Minjing Monthly, issued a statement reiterating its contention that the charges against Gao were false. The magazine first reported on the document in August 2013.

The magazine suggested the document already had been circulated at the time when Gao is alleged to have leaked it. It also said the information contained neither military nor economic secrets, but was merely a "correct guidance" on ideological matters.

"This unjust judgment of an outstanding Chinese journalist utterly destroys Xi Jinping's commitment to 'rule according to law'," the magazine said.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on April 17, 2015, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 05:56:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 05:51:16 PM
Wait you like having to pay more for your powdered milk?

I don't.  But it is not about whether I like it or not.  It is about free trade and GDP.

I wouldn't mind them so much either if I had a fully paid flat and a senior civil servant job.   :P

When I lived in Shenzhen for 3 years I would often come to Hong Kong, and the throngs of mainland shoppers would be a common sight at the border, on the subway and at particular shopping venues.  I can see why a lot of HKers do not like them.  There are the wealthy ones which pose their own sets of problems, but the most noticeable (at least to my eyes) are the throngs of poorly mannered, uneducated bumpkins that descend upon the city day in and day out, some of them multiple times in one day.   
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on April 17, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
How come they trust HK products but not Chinese products?- are they not the same?
Can't Chinese shops just start importing from the same place as the HK shops?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2015, 11:18:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
How come they trust HK products but not Chinese products?- are they not the same?
Can't Chinese shops just start importing from the same place as the HK shops?

A mainland consumer couldn't be sure they are not knock offs.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: crazy canuck on April 17, 2015, 12:02:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 16, 2015, 05:32:58 PM
Afterwards the tourist guides, bus drivers, shop staff etc will all take a cut in kickbacks. 

I can understand why the shop owners pay the guides and drivers a gratuity for bringing in the hordes of mainlanders to their shops.  But why are they paying a "kickback" to their own staff?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 06:17:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 17, 2015, 12:02:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 16, 2015, 05:32:58 PM
Afterwards the tourist guides, bus drivers, shop staff etc will all take a cut in kickbacks. 

I can understand why the shop owners pay the guides and drivers a gratuity for bringing in the hordes of mainlanders to their shops.  But why are they paying a "kickback" to their own staff?

Because I used the wrong word  :blush:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: Camerus on April 17, 2015, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 15, 2015, 05:56:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2015, 05:51:16 PM
Wait you like having to pay more for your powdered milk?

I don't.  But it is not about whether I like it or not.  It is about free trade and GDP.

I wouldn't mind them so much either if I had a fully paid flat and a senior civil servant job.   :P

When I lived in Shenzhen for 3 years I would often come to Hong Kong, and the throngs of mainland shoppers would be a common sight at the border, on the subway and at particular shopping venues.  I can see why a lot of HKers do not like them.  There are the wealthy ones which pose their own sets of problems, but the most noticeable (at least to my eyes) are the throngs of poorly mannered, uneducated bumpkins that descend upon the city day in and day out, some of them multiple times in one day.   

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2Fp_zpsc3moc8uc.jpg&hash=2faef3e3955ab0a0c1702cf2366b8d7baa9d7891) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/p_zpsc3moc8uc.jpg.html)

I don't think tourist is the right word to describe them.  They are professional full time businessmen involved in a huge logistical operation that transports HK goods to the mainland with hundreds of thousands of people.  The reason they can't use containers and ships is because of mainland tariffs and customs.  This is now a very common sight in HK.  They leave the trash on the ground, obstruct pedestrian pavements, are noisy, drive up prices of transport and food, etc.  I am all for more business, but the pain for the locals is very real.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 06:29:45 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
How come they trust HK products but not Chinese products?- are they not the same?
Can't Chinese shops just start importing from the same place as the HK shops?

No they aren't the same.  International suppliers often have different product lines for mainland and HK, with the HK product line being superior in quality.  There is also the matter of mainland customs and tariffs.  If you import stuff directly to the mainland, you'll need to pay heavy tariff.  HK is a free port and there are no such restrictions.  HK also uses HK currency which is considered cheaper when compared with RMB.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F0417-00174-001b1_zpsz0vaou0j.jpg&hash=2dce7bf79d3ed580551c33db27355afcbc9d5275) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/0417-00174-001b1_zpsz0vaou0j.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 06:38:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2015, 11:18:10 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
How come they trust HK products but not Chinese products?- are they not the same?
Can't Chinese shops just start importing from the same place as the HK shops?

A mainland consumer couldn't be sure they are not knock offs.

Thing is, if you buy knock offs on the mainland, then you complain about it, and the knock offs happen to be produced by some senior official (which is most of the time), you go to jail.  If you buy knock offs in HK, and you complain about it, the media can report it, the government will arrest the sellers and producers of the knockoffs, and you may or may not get a refund.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Camerus on April 17, 2015, 06:50:34 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 06:29:45 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 17, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
How come they trust HK products but not Chinese products?- are they not the same?
Can't Chinese shops just start importing from the same place as the HK shops?

No they aren't the same.  International suppliers often have different product lines for mainland and HK, with the HK product line being superior in quality.  There is also the matter of mainland customs and tariffs.  If you import stuff directly to the mainland, you'll need to pay heavy tariff.  HK is a free port and there are no such restrictions.  HK also uses HK currency which is considered cheaper when compared with RMB.

Yeah, I'd estimate international goods in mainland China are a good 20%-40% more expensive than if purchased in HK... plus you run the risk that it is a fake.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on April 17, 2015, 08:44:24 PM
Basically, there is nobody I know who can stand the mainland tourists.  I am the only person who don't mind.  Everybody, even the most pro-mainland and pro-government people, scream that the government should put a stop to it.  If HK were a real democracy, it would have been done eons ago.  Only the unelected pro-business administration could have held off the tsunami of public opinion for as long as they did.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 06, 2015, 02:20:27 PM
I have absolutely no idea about these stereotypes but I laugh nonetheless.
South Chinese girls vs North Chinese girls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbiIu_EzuWk
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2015, 02:27:43 PM
 :hmm:

So basically
South China Girl = Bridget Jones
North China Girl = Ke$ha

Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 06, 2015, 02:30:21 PM
North Girl = juicehead psychopath.

South Girl = weenie.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2015, 02:33:10 PM
That's what I said. :contract:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 06, 2015, 02:33:58 PM
I don't know who Kei#ha is .
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2015, 02:36:34 PM
She sings about brushing her teeth with Jack Daniels.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 06, 2015, 02:37:06 PM
Where's the psychopath part?
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Eddie Teach on May 06, 2015, 02:40:55 PM
Eh, I think if you knew who she was you could easily imagine her cutting a bitch.  :P
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on May 06, 2015, 02:52:56 PM
South Chinese Girl: What Texan Women pretend to be
North Chinese Girl: What Texan Women actually are
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 06, 2015, 02:54:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2015, 02:52:56 PM
South Chinese Girl: What Texan Women pretend to be
North Chinese Girl: What Texan Women actually are

heh
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on May 06, 2015, 05:59:34 PM
It does fit common Chinese stereotypes  :lol:

Northern girls (and men) also tend to be bigger and taller  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Sheilbh on May 06, 2015, 06:03:08 PM
North China girl seems a lot more fun :mellow:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Valmy on May 06, 2015, 06:20:29 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 06, 2015, 06:03:08 PM
North China girl seems a lot more fun :mellow:

Yes indeed.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 06, 2015, 06:23:05 PM
I'm all over the weenie.  Bet she's a screamer.  Plus she's cuter.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 07, 2015, 12:57:56 AM
Yes. The southerner wins on all counts except the cooking.

Though of the Chinese girls I know right now, one is southern and the other northern.... And both behave like the northern one.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: The Brain on May 07, 2015, 01:18:40 AM
I like Ke$ha.
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Monoriu on May 07, 2015, 01:25:03 AM
Now that I think about it, mine feels very much like the northern one.  The cooking part is spot on and happens in disturbing frequencies  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Syt on May 07, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/05/the-chinese-art-of-the-crowd/392531/

And now for something of a more Riefenstahl tinge :P

(More pictures, and explanations at the link)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc34_452881998%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=c902558c97e50f04089ffefce4a3cd534babde87)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc32_RTXP5DC%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=2875708d5e8424f3ffa2dd956ef4af4bc3da0afc)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc27_RTR48FBI%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=7a9085d65b72b3843ee975b443e8401d6e353aa5)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc25_91300454%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=46c6312748c57a1a10004362b9b5532e9ce1773f)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc20_RTXP10F%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=2e362b1a904018fd3c9560c7d76c372fee57e010)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc16_RTR28FCA%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=7a601d2858009f508c9d55d3d57951b7ec55d640)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fassets%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F05%2Fthe-chinese-art-of-the-crowd%2Fc12_RTR44R09%2Fmain_1500.jpg&hash=8e9ef504b0f113bc87f1eb032caa5906116da7fa)

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Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2015, 12:28:03 PM
Now if they could only line up like that when they got off their tour buses.  :glare:
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Josquius on May 07, 2015, 12:39:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2015, 12:28:03 PM
Now if they could only line up like that when they got off their tour buses.  :glare:
:lol:
:yes:

Damn qing dynasty turning the Chinese forever off queues <_<
Title: Re: The China Thread
Post by: Tonitrus on June 09, 2015, 08:20:10 PM
Bringing back some good 'ol Soviet/Frankenstein science ideas...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/chinese-surgeon-who-has-performed-1000-head-transplants-on-mice-wants-to-create-the-first-headtransplanted-monkey-that-can-live-at-least-for-a-little-while-10304115.html

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QuoteChinese surgeon who has performed 1,000 head transplants on mice wants to create the first head-transplanted monkey that can live 'at least for a little while'

Critics have branded his work 'ridiculous'


Christopher Hooton

Monday, 8 June 2015
Not content with having created over 1,000 hybrid mice with different heads, some a different colour from their bodies, controversial doctor Xiaoping Ren next wants to perform pioneering transplant